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Requested move

This discussion was ] on Error: Invalid time..

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Close per three month moratorium on move discussions set at Talk:2014 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 2#Requested move. Repeated move discussions in very close succession are disruptive. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:04, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Future date stamp to keep this from being archived for the duration of the moratorium. Advance Timrollpickering (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Plenty of sources appear to be calling this a war by now, many by the term "Gaza War". There was a Gaza War in 2008, but perhaps we should name this article to something similar sooner or later. Here are some sources:

• The New York Times
• The Wall Street Journal
• CNN
• New York Post
• Gannett
• Haaretz
• USA Today

There's likely a lot more.--ɱ (talk) 16:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. "Conflict" is a serious understatement. But first you need to submit a formal move request.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the above is mainly just to draw people's attention to the necessity. I don't personally want to be active in such a move debate.--ɱ (talk) 21:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Would "Second Gaza War" be the likely title destination? Tandrum (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think "Second Gaza War" is currently being used by sources. "2014 Gaza war" or "Gaza war (2014)" will probably be the likely titles.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict → Gaza War (2014) – Per the above. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:34, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead and background

The article is about the "Operation Protective Edge" (or whatever you prefer to call it, if you dislike the IDF name). Acting boldly, I have removed a big chunk of the lead, because it is hugely awkward, and properly refers to the background. Every one of the events in this chunk is mentioned in the background section. And the treatment of those things are much better in that section, instead of a litany of incidents in the lead with no logic for inclusion/exclusion. Already multiple battles are being fought on the this part of the lead including here, here, here, here and here. Kingsindian (talk) 07:52, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Under the circumstances of there being recurring, ongoing disagreement about what to include in the 'background' part in the lead (as recently as right now), and the lead being really long, your bold move of the information to the article body (which I polished up in these edits) was probably for the best. -sche (talk) 01:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian:After our positive interchanges, I am somewhat disappointed that you continue to refer to this article as being about "Operation Protective Edge". The title shows that it clearly is not = "2014 Israel–Gaza conflict". We need to achieve closure on this issue because it is leading to grossly inefficient editing by all concerned and a waste of individual time.

I have previously suggested that, if you want to preserve an article named "Operation Protective Edge" then I would fully support that. But then we must DO that, and move the bloated detail about "OPE" to its own page, replacing it with a synopsis in the 2014 overview. In a day or two I will propose a draft Background section that does not violate the subject matter of the current article.

@Erictheenquirer: As you can see on the top of the talk page (and I have also mentioned this in our earlier conversations), there is a 3-month moratorium on moves on this page, therefore, it has to stay with an unsatisfactory title. I did not move the article, but we are stuck with the title name, unless someone puts in a move review request. However even a casual glance at the article shows that 95% (if not higher) of the article is about "Operation Protective Edge". Everyone in this article has been editing as if this deals with "Operation Protective Edge", not the whole of 2014. Most of the issues were with the lead section, which I have trimmed massively. Right now, I do not see much confusion. Kingsindian (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian:I accept that. Please see my conclusions at Talk: POV Tag Needed for Article Lead above, where I will continue the discussion.

@Somedifferentstuff: Could you elaborate on why you went back to the previous version? Kingsindian (talk) 00:20, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

UNRWA section. Work out a consensual version

==Allegations of UN bias==

The neutrality of this section is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met. (August 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this message)

See also: Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations

During the present conflict, the impartiality of UN agencies operating in a Gaza has fallen under question. Critics allege that the agencies have lost their neutral standing and question their position as unbiased parties. The UN agency UNRWA has faced a number of criticisms during the conflict. Some critics contend that the UN agency lacks accountability and transparency with regards to the distribution and use of foreign funds in the Strip and the hiring of individuals associated with terrorist groups. Critics have also pointed to the three instances during the present conflict where missiles were discovered in UNRWA schools and the agency's subsequent handling of the weapons as casting a shadow over the organization's neutrality in the conflict. U.S. Senators Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), Ben Cardin (D-Md.) and Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) called for an investigation into the UNRWA's role during the conflict; the U.S. government is UNRWA's leading source of funding. The UN agency OCHA has also been criticized following its publication of causalty figures; critics question the reliability of the sources used in compiling the agency's reports. Presently, Israel and the OCHA dispute the number of civilians killed during the conflict. The OCHA has reported that approximately 70% of Gazans killed were civilians, Israel disputes this and maintains that 45-55% were combatants. Critics also point to structural biases in the UN; Arab and Muslim countries number over 50, ensuring a broad coalition criticizing Israel.

• I can't imagine this given the bloated state of the article, running to more than two lines. We all know this is pol-spin crap, and has its due refutations also. But if Shrike wants it, then he should craft a succinct synthesis summing up the charges and rebuttals.Nishidani (talk) 20:34, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• This paragraph contains repetition of the rockets in the UNRWA facilities and the disputed civilian percentage. IMO both can be safely removed. Whatever remains belongs under "Alleged violations of IHL/Military use of UN facilities" instead of a separate section.- WarKosign (talk) 21:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• The first three sentences are vague, unreferenced (or in one case lightly-referenced), weaselly-worded aspersions like "Critics allege that..." (when, as noted above, "'Israeli commentators' is a far more specific label"). The sentence "Some critics contend that associated with terrorist groups" may be worth keeping someplace, though I suspect that place is ] and not this article. Everything from "Critics have also pointed..." to "... neutrality in the conflict" and everything from "The UN agency OCHA..." to "...45-55% were combatants" is duplication of content which is already present (and better-placed) elsewhere in the article, as WarKosign notes. And the bit about what two US senators think is undue (and, as was noted elsewhere on this talk page, probably just spin for domestic consumption) and should be removed like the Irish politician's views were removed some time ago. The last sentence, which suggests certain ethnic and religious groups are inherently biased, and nations where a majority of the population is of such ethnic or religious groups are therefore also inherently going to take certain stances, is problematic for the reasons noted a few sections up. -sche (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Adding a future timestamp so this does not get archived. 21:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

References

1. ^ McCoy, Terrance. "The controversial U.N. agency that found rockets in its Gaza schools." The Washington Post. 1 August 2014.
2. Romirowsky, Asaf. "UNRWA, UNHRC: Fighting for Human Rights or Supporting Terrorrism?." Israel Channel 24 News. Accessed 12 August 2014.
3. Rosett, Claudia. "The U.N. Handmaiden of Hamas." The Wall Street Journal. 7 August 2014.
4. Rosett, Claudia. "Gaza Bedfellows UNRWA And Hamas." Forbes. 8 January 2009.
5. Joffee, Alexander and Asaf Romirowsky. "From Welfare to Warfare." Mosaic Magazine. 2 August 2014.
6. Derby, Kevin. "Marco Rubio Wants John Kerry to Look at UN Role With Hamas." Sunshine State News. 7 August 2014.
7. "Uncovering the Sources of Jeremy Bowen’s BBC Gaza Casualty Figures." The Algemeiner Journal. 15 July 2014.
8. Cite error: The named reference OCHA was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. Cite error: The named reference ynetnews was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. Betsy Pisik. "WAR OF WORDS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND UN CONTINUES." The Daily Beast. 9 August 2014.
11. "how the United Nations was perverted into a weapon against Israel." The New York Post. 26 July 2014.

Rockets pre July 6 and post July 6

Regarding chronology of rocket fire. Basic claim is: Pre July 6 rockets were fired by non-Hamas groups. Post July 6 rockets were fired by Hamas. Here are the sources. Some may be ambiguous, but taken together, demonstrate the point, I think. Virtually everyone dates the start of Hamas rocket fire at July 6.

• The American Conservative "July 6, Israeli air force bombs a tunnel in Gaza, killing six Hamas men. The bombing ended a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that had prevailed since 2011 (probably a typo - me). Hamas responded with a barrage of rockets, and Israel launched Operation Protective Edge."
• Nathan Thrall "As protests spread through Israel and Jerusalem, militants in Gaza from non-Hamas factions began firing rockets and mortars in solidarity. Sensing Israel’s vulnerability and the Ramallah leadership’s weakness, Hamas leaders called for the protests to grow into a third intifada. When the rocket fire increased, they found themselves drawn into a new confrontation: they couldn’t be seen suppressing the rocket attacks while calling for a mass uprising. Israel’s retaliation culminated in the 6 July bombings that killed seven Hamas militants, the largest number of fatalities inflicted on the group in several months. The next day Hamas began taking responsibility for the rockets. Israel then announced Operation Protective Edge."
• Mouin Rabbani "On the night of 6 July, an Israeli air raid resulted in the death of seven Hamas militants. Hamas responded with sustained missile attacks deep into Israel, escalating further as Israel launched its full-scale onslaught."
• New Republic: " Then on July 6, the Israeli air force bombed a tunnel in Gaza, killing six Hamas men. Before that, there had been sporadic rocket attacks against Israeli from outlier groups, but afterwards, Hamas took responsibility for and increased the rocket attacks against Israel, and the Israeli government launched “Operation Protective Edge” against Hamas in Gaza. "
• The National Interest (Also quotes 3 others in this list) "Israel not only arrested fifty-one Hamas members released in the exchange for Gilad Shalit, but also conducted thirty-four airstrikes on Gaza on July 1 and killed six Hamas men in a bombing raid on a tunnel in Gaza on July 6. After these Israeli actions, came a big volley of Hamas rockets, then Operation Protective Edge"
• Larry Derfner "Then on Sunday, as many as nine Hamas men were killed in a Gazan tunnel that Israel bombed, saying it was going to be used for a terror attack. The next day nearly 100 rockets were fired at Israel. This time Hamas took responsibility for launching some of the rockets – a week after Netanyahu, for the first time since November 2012, accused it of breaking the ceasefire."

I found only one which disagrees. It is quite possible that he is simply not differentiating between Hamas and non-Hamas factions.

J J Goldberg "On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day it unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over"

Kingsindian (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

What is the context of the distinction between Hamas and non-Hamas ? Hamas is the acting government of the strip, it is responsible for the actions of all the groups. WarKosign (talk) 07:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

So the British government is responsible for everything that happens in the UK then? All the murders, child abuse etc etc? Just because you are the government of somewhere does not mean you are responsible for other people's actions.Non Hamas groups are obviously not Hamas, like Islamic Jihad fire rockets but they are not Hamas. Anyway, Hamas are not the government there anymore, they stepped down a while back now.GGranddad (talk) 08:04, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

It is pointless for wiki-editors to debate responsibility. Leave that to the silly journalists and the sillier analysts. You are wrong about Hamas, though. They are the de-facto sovereign, have never stepped down, and you shouldn't repeat such claims without serious sources to back it up. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@GGranddad: British government is most definitely responsible for everything that happens in the UK. It is responsible to try and prevent acts of crime or to solve them after they happened, catch and judge or extradite the criminals. In our case, there was the kidnapping and murder of the 3 Israeli teenagers by some Gazans that Hamas claimed were not its members. Hamas congratulated the murderers and showed no intention of arresting them. When Israelis committed kidnapping and murder of a teenager, they were quickly caught and are now under investigation and facing charges of premeditated murder, as befits. WarKosign (talk) 15:27, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Nice spin on things but not really based in any facts at all WarKosign.First off Hamas did not congratulate the murderers because at the time they did not know the kids had been murdered because the news was they had been kidnapped.Who said Gazans kidnapped them? Also Hamas are not the authorities in the west bank, it is under Israeli military occupation so they cannot arrest people there obviously. The UK government are not responsible for everything that happens in the UK, they are only responsible for inforcing the laws and they do not catch that many criminals at all, so to claim that Hamas is responsible for everything that happens in the west bank is untrue.They certainly are not responsible for other groups firing rockets, those groups are independent of Hamas and no one has proven otherwise.GGranddad (talk) 16:00, 24 August 2014 (UTC)Struck comment of indef blocked and topic banned User:Dalai lama ding dong.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@GGranddad: A government is responsible for everything that happens on their soil. Obviously they can't prevent every crime or accident, but they are responsible to make a reasonable effort to prevent, and if that fails - to fix the damages and punish the perpetrators. If hamas as it claims is an acting government in the Gaza strip, it can't claim that it's not responsible for other groups firing rockets. Either they are a government, or a guerrilla organization. If they are not a government and there is no other, Israel's is the only government responsible for the Gaza strip, and it's well within its right - as well as obligation - to hunt down Hamas terrorists. WarKosign (talk) 16:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: There is a considerable difference, both legal and ethical, between a government being responsible for every criminal act "that occurs on its soil", and it failing to punish the perpetrators of criminal acts of its soil. The former is deliberate and calculated criminality; the latter is generally the result of corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency or simply turning a blind eye. It is not synonymous to actual legal responsibility under international law, unless you have sources which disagree with me. Regardless, the idea that, if non-Hamas affiliated elements are firing rockets, you can blame Hamas because "they're responsible for every act that occurs on their soil" is akin to suggesting that the we should directly blame the US government for, say, the Ferguson murder? It's absurd. JDiala (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@JDiala: I could agree with you if Hamas made some effort to stop the rocket fires, or even payed some lip service. Instead it continues praising the heroic action of firing on civilians. How many people were arrested in Gaza for firing on Israel during the ceasefire ? This article says they made some effort, but is there a single result they can show ? Is there a single statement by Hamas that it's wrong or at least that it's against "the Palestinian interest" at the moment ? WarKosign (talk) 08:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but both of you are wasting time debating responsibility. Basic neutral solution, write "Israel considers Hamas responsible". Doesn't matter which Arab liberation militia does what as long as long as it is clearly a racial based terrorist act, Israel can blame either Hamas or Fatah based on whatever information the Shin Beit has (or whatever the Prime Minister feels like). It is not Misplaced Pages's place to start making disclaimers (unless, there's a really good one that I'm missing? Did a UK resident did the killing or something silly like that?). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

"the majority of whom were Palestinian civilians"

incorrect; source needed. are you at all aware that hamas activists run around in civilian cloths? when they are killed, most of them are simply tagged as civilians by the government - hamas themselfs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.81.109 (talk) 12:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

There is no argument (I hope) that by far most of the casualties are Palestinians. Percent of the civilians among them is disputed and may be bellow 50%, so I changed the statement to say that most of the casualties are Palestinians without referring to their militant vs civilian status here. WarKosign (talk) 14:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@GGranddad: The source you added says "mostly civilians", it doesn't says that they were mostly Palestinian civilians. Please add a source that actually backs up the claim you insist on making. WarKosign (talk) 15:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

BTW, according to this, if you apply a simple WP:CALC, percent of civilian palestinians is 49.53%, which is not a majority. WarKosign (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's either 49.53% or 50.9%, they give both 2200 and 2140 as number of casualties. Anyway, I suggest not going into the percent of civilians vs militants in the opening paragraph. WarKosign (talk) 15:09, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I added more links.GGranddad (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)Struck comment of indef blocked and topic banned User:Dalai lama ding dong.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

One of them actually says that the majority or the people killed in Gaza were Palestinian Civilians. The article speaks about people killed in general, including in Israel - so the source still doesn't back up the claim completely. I would rather keep the lead paragraph undisputable, without the need to present different viewpoints. The fact that by far most of the casualties are Palestinians can't be disputed. Percent of civilians can, especially as final numbers will arrive from the different organizations. WarKosign (talk) 15:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually two of them state that and they were.The percentage of civilians is only disputed by Israel. I see no need to remove well sourced factual information, the sources back up what has been written in the article.GGranddad (talk) 15:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)Struck comment of indef blocked and topic banned User:Dalai lama ding dong.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Best I am aware, the statistics on age group casualty rates was not the work of Israel. Do you have a source saying otherwise? Here's one not presented by Israel: MarciulionisHOF (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC) added BBC MarciulionisHOF (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Then that makes them civilians. Regardless if whether or not they are politically associated with Hamas, so long as they don't engage in hostilities, they are considered civilians. http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/03/qa-2014-hostilities-between-israel-and-hamas; "...mere membership or affiliation with Hamas, which is a political entity with an armed component, is not a sufficient basis for determining an individual to be a lawful military target. Israel’s labeling of certain individuals as “terrorists” does not make them military targets as a matter of law, so attacks on such persons may be deliberate attacks on civilians or indiscriminate on the grounds that there was no military target, in violation of the laws of war." JDiala (talk) 17:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I added that statement. In the sidebar are statistics from five different organisations, four of which agree that the majority of Palestinian casualities have been civilians, and the fifth of which, the IDF, gives a ratio of civilians to militants of around 50% (and I don't think it would be controversial to note that they're likely to be biased). If you think the statistics in the sidebar are in dispute, despite the numerous sources there, then they should be addressed there; I merely amended the phrasing to reflect the statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjamin M. A'Lee (talk • contribs) 18:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if its better to mention the civilian issue in the first para or not. I'm sure anti-Israelis would love to present it as if ALL the deaths are peace negotiators... but, really, since that's disputed -- including whether or not a Hamas "politician" is considered a legitimate target or not (all due respect to supreme court judge NGO extraordinaire HRW). What do mainstream sources use? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 18:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a link to a serious institute's research: . Based on their fact finding, which is a much more serious process than repeating the Hamas-Healthcare/Muqawama-Foreign-PR-department line and chanting "illegal!!!!", I'd be hard pressed to accept NGO vying for notability being pushed forward, even if there are a gazzilibillion of them. On point -- what do proper analysts have to say about the lists? OK. NGOs too, but gropu them together if they just repeat Muqawama-FPR numbers without looking into them. Sure reminds me of the Jenin "Massacre". Has anyone seen the short (10 min) movie The Truth - by Scandar Copti & Rabih Boukhary? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 18:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF: I have asked you before to stop your WP:FORUMing. Kingsindian (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: I don't appreciate scare tactics. Have you read that link? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 08:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The vast majority of the sources say and report that of the Palestinians killed, there were overwhelmingly civilians killed and that shouldn't be ignored just because Israel and a few others disputes it. The last view is also in the table and relevants parts but otherwise, the first thing should be accepted as a fact. With regards to the table, it's also weird that IDF's claims about militants killed are there but the ones by Hamas about Israelis killed have been removed. --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM and AcidSnow: The majority view (based on reports of the Hamas controlled ministry of health) is that up to 80% of the casualties were civilians. There is also a minority view that up to 50% of the casualties where in fact militants. Both views are represented both in the infobox and in the casualties reports table. We could present both views in the first paragraph of the lead, or we could avoid the disputable topic and leave only short summary of indisputable information in the lead. WarKosign (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It's not only figures by the administration in Gaza and that something is disputed doesn't mean we won't report that majority of the killed were civilians, as then you give the other, in this case Israeli position, a much higher representation than it should have. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The “short summary of indisputable information” draws a false equivalence between Israeli and Palestinian deaths. Stating that “Hamas rockets and Israeli air strikes have left more than 2,000 dead” overlooks the highly pertinent point that the deaths have overwhelmingly been on one side. There is no dispute that ~95% of the deaths have been Palestinian or that ~90% of the Israeli deaths were military, and this should be reflected, at the very least. Benjamin M. A'Lee (talk) 07:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You are correct, this is why I wrote "mostly Palestinians" and suggested to add ", many of them civilians". I believe there is no dispute that by far most of the casualties are Palestinian, only their civilian vs military status is disputed. Recently the total number of casualties increased while there was no Israeli claim of the number of dead militants, so there is no source to contradict the claim that most of the casualties are Palestinian civilians. Once/If there is such a claim, we can return to this dispute. WarKosign (talk) 08:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Question the civilian percentages is done by much more than Israel. BBC and NYT both published research casting doubt on the Hamas numbers Gaijin42 (talk) 20:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

There is some questions but as I said, the vast majority reports that most Palestinians killed were civilians, and that is the point we should follow. If they stop believe that, then we can change it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So now WarKosign has removed that most were civilians. What we have now in the lead is that the percentage of how many were civilians is disputed, though the health ministry, UN and NGO's back it up. We are not even given an estimate anymore in the lead but just the total of Palestinian dead and that the number of civilians is disputed. The Israeli side's fatalities is given as a fact. This is a serious POV problem. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Look at the recent edits to the section. People were constantly adding more and more of the casualties information to the lead. It was agreed to keep the lead short and simple. Either you have all the different numbers or you have none. As long as it's something in between people will keep adding the missing critical bit. WarKosign (talk) 21:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• @IRISZOOM: Let's avoid repeating all of the precise numbers of Palestinian and Israeli and Thai civilians and combatants twice in the space of the lead's four paragraphs (and then a third time in the infobox). The lead's fourth paragraph is where the casualty data are summarized; it already contains the note that "Between 2,000 and 2,143 Gazans have been killed and between 10,895 and 11,100 have been wounded, while 66 IDF soldiers, 5 Israeli civilians and 1 Thai civilian have been killed and 450 IDF soldiers and 80 Israeli civilians have been wounded." The ellipsis marks the spot I just moved the data on child casualties to. -sche (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay. I wanted to restore that most were Palestinians civilians, as this was removed with no basis. It looks good now. The source on the number of Palestinian children killed can be seen in the sources in the lead, with the exception of The National. --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The Algemeiner says that "Israel Says Gaza Death Toll 1:1 Combatant-Civilian Kill Ratio", which I take as claiming that 50% of the Palestinian casualties are civilians, which already makes them non-majority. If you add casualties in Israel and Gaza together the number of Palestinian civilians is definitely bellow 50%. At most you could say that "so and so casualties, most of them Palestinians and many of them civilians" or "so and so casualties, according to some sources most of them Palestinian civilians". Anything that is short and does not contradict reliable sources will do. WarKosign (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

We already know Israel gives a figure around that, which is noted in the table and infobox. Palestinian officials, UN, NGO's and hundreds of media reports back up the claim that most were Palestinian civilians and that's why we use their wording. This is a clear majority view. So it's totally reasonable to write that most killed have been Palestinian civilians. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

No, it is totally reasonable to write that there are two different views. Your counting of the sources is OR. If there is a source saying that one view is in majority it's also reasonable to write so. Doing otherwise would violate NPOV. WarKosign (talk) 20:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

As I've said, just because Israel and some others dispute the numbers doesn't mean that we don't report the overwhelmingly view which is that most of the dead were Palestinian civilians. It is not OR at all, I can't see how you reached that conclusion, because no doubt the view that most dead were Palestinian civilians are in clear majority. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:06, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

You cannot ignore one side's POV, and pick the side based on your bias. Either both sides are represented per NPOV or neither is. WarKosign (talk) 21:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

It's not ignored, their position is stated in relevant sections of it. But that doesn't mean we can't state as a fact that most were Palestinian civilians. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

It most certainly means that you cannot state a disputed claim as a fact. Why not take any other disputed claim in the article and write it as a fact in the lead as well ? WarKosign (talk) 21:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

That is not true. There are many disputes about numerous topics and claims. Merely being disputed doesn't mean we can't state something as a fact. As I have said repeatedly, there is a clear majority who say that most dead were Palestinian civilians. That can be stated as a fact. For example, you wrongly say that East Jerusalem is "in Israel" here below, but clearly the rest of the world doesn't agree and that's why we say it's occupied though Israel and some others dispute it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:YESPOV and WP:ASSERT, one cannot state a disputed opinion as a fact. It is OK to mention both opinion or even to claim that one is more popular than another. WarKosign (talk) 11:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, per WP:DWIP, since there is consensus that lead should be kept short and to the point, we should not include both versions in full detail in the lead. Hence the only option that I see is to remove the disputed statement from the lead. More than 2100 casualties, most of them Palestinians, many of them civilians. Unless someone can come up with another indisputable statement, this is more or less what the lead should say. WarKosign (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I suggest: In the first paragraph: "2100 casualties, mostly Palestinians". In the last paragraph, something like this: "Gaza Health Ministry, UN and human rights orgs give 70-75% civilians. Israel states 50% militants." A short statement, including Israel's position, but making the relative positions clear. Simply saying "exact number is disputed" is too weak a statement. Kingsindian (talk) 16:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. -sche, any preemptive copy-editing before we put it in the article itself ? WarKosign (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Kingindian's suggestions sound good to me, too. I might expand the second sentence a bit, to: "The Gaza Health Ministry, UN and human rights groups say 70-75% of the Palestinian casualties were civilians; Israel states 50% were militants." I wonder (a) where in the fourth paragraph it's best to put that sentence, and (b) if it might make sense to give both sides' civilian %, or militant %, rather than mixing them as "Palestine says  % were , Israel says  % were ". -sche (talk) 18:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"Both the exact number of people killed and the percentage of the dead who were civilians has been disputed." - do we still need this first sentence of the fourth paragraph ? The percentage of civilians will be discussed better and the exact number of casualties while slightly different is not really disputed. I think it's understandable that it will take some time for the lists of casualties to finalize. I suggest this as the fourth paragraph:

Between 2,000 and 2,143 Gazans have been killed (including 495–578 children) and between 10,895 and 11,100 have been wounded, while 66 IDF soldiers, 5 Israeli civilians and 1 Thai civilian have been killed and 450 IDF soldiers and 80 Israeli civilians have been wounded. The Gaza Health Ministry, UN and human rights groups say 70-75% of the Palestinian casualties were civilians; Israel states 50% were civilians. On 5 August, OCHA stated that 520,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (approximately 30% of its population) might have been displaced, of whom 485,000 needed emergency food assistance and 273,000 were taking shelter in 90 UN-run schools. 17,200 Gazan homes have been totally destroyed or severely damaged, and 37,650 homes have suffered damage but are still inhabitable. In addition, it stated that during the war, the IDF killed 23 Palestinians in the West Bank and wounded 2,218 others, 38% of them by live fire, while dealing with protests. In Israel, an estimated 5,000 to 8,000 citizens fled their homes due to the threat of rocket and mortar attacks. WarKosign (talk) 19:45, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks good. I agree that now that the various estimates of casualties and of civilian-vs-militant percentages are spelled out, the current first sentence ("Both the exact...") can be dropped. -sche (talk) 20:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't at all say so, WarKosign, as that refers to opinions etc. I don't oppose the changes suggested here but again wan't to say that we still can't, and shouldn't, not state it as a fact in where it's relevant. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:41, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Too many negatives in the last sentence for me to parse. At least one seems to be a false negative. (wan't). Just a joke. In my opinion, there was a case for simply stating it as a fact, rather than "both sides", but it would have involved too much bother for too little and uncertain gain for the cogency of the lead. Anyone else wants to take up the "fight", feel free. Kingsindian (talk) 22:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Could you elaborate? I think it's very important to have a text as good as possible when it comes to perhaps the most notably issue in this conflict, which is the deaths of civilians. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point, all we have is preliminary figures, as the UN itself stresses. Afterwards, there will be investigations by human rights orgs like B'Tselem and international orgs like Amnesty and Human Rights Watch (they are currently waiting to get into Gaza for conducting investigations). For the moment, too much is uncertain. Though it is not in my own mind, but it exists. It is good to reflect the uncertainty for now, and let the reader make up his own mind. Kingsindian (talk) 23:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign:, why did you keep the dubious tag? It makes no sense when the whole criticism there is addressed in the whole section now that it got changed. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: I don't know had put it there and why. Doesn't it refer to the whole article ? WarKosign (talk) 08:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I mean the one which was introduced here. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

This discussion and the changes were about percent of civilians, while the tag is about the total number of casualties. Maybe Blizzisme (talk · contribs) can elaborate. WarKosign (talk) 10:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

That is absurd. Saying that the crediblity of the numbers given here is acceptable when coming to percentage but not the total is like moving the goalpost. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Because of your weird unwillingness to remove it, I have now done it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 00:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Hamas claims in the infobox

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Should or shouldn't Hamas claims of soldiers killed be included in the infobox? There are two versions which keep getting added and deleted.

• Newer version: HAMAS: 1000 soldier killed, 2000 soldier wounded
• An older version: Hamas:161 soldiers killed

References

1. Cite error: The named reference partfour was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference jihad121 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. ^ Cite error: The named reference OCHA was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. ^ Cite error: The named reference ministry was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. Cite error: The named reference PCHR was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
6. Cite error: The named reference OPE-Israeli-wounded was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
7. "Gaza Emergency Situation Report" (PDF). United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory. 3 August 2014. Retrieved 4 August 2014. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
8. "Occupied Palestinian Territory: Gaza Emergency" (PDF). 5 August 2014. Retrieved 12 August 2014.
9. Gideon Levy 'The IDF’s real face,' Haaretz 30 August 2014.
10. ^ Nidal al-Mughrabi and Allyn Fisher-Ilan. "Israel, Palestinians launch new three-day truce." Reuters. 10 August 2014.
11. Heller, Aron (6 August 2014). "Southern Israelis cautiously prepare to head home". Associated Press. Retrieved 31 August 2014.
12. http://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2014/08/28/hamas-our-sources-indicate-that-there-are-over-1000-killed-over-2000-wounded-israeli-soldiers-officers/
13. http://www.alwatanvoice.com/arabic/news/2014/08/28/583978.html
14. "Gaza offensive 'fiercest,' 'deadliest': Israel". Anadolu Agency. 5 August 2014. Retrieved 6 August 2014.

Please indicate: Yes or No. If Yes, indicate which version you prefer.

• Comment I have no feeling one way or another. But pinging Zaid almasri since he keeps adding it. Kingsindian (talk) 15:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
• No. The sources are crap, and silly propaganda claims have no place in an infobox, as opposed to a disinfobox.Nishidani (talk) 15:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Yes The second one. Anadolu Agency is an acceptable source. --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

No one here is disputing it is Hamas' claim, WarKosign, so I don't understand your point. It is therefore it is written: "Hamas: 161 soldiers killed", just as we have IDF's claim. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't clear that the other number was from the same source as it's different sites but okay then. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:01, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• No. This claim contradicts all the evidence from all the other sources, and in fact implies there is a conspiracy by the Israeli and the international media as well as 930 families of the supposed hidden casualties. This claim belongs with the rest of the dubious claims made by Hamas at the the media sub-page's special section. WarKosign (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
• Yes The first one (1,000 KIA). While it's a round number it is not unusual for belligerents in a conflict to release estimates of the enemy's casualties, not unlike the IDF also claiming "1,000 militants." DocumentError (talk) 21:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

• Yes Hamas claim of 1000 soldier dead should be used since it is the newest and the 161 figure is outdated.

both IDF and HAMAS claims of how much they killed from the other side are estimates and of course both of them are inflated and ridiculous , but since it is attributed to them and not stated as a fact but rather as a claim it must be included and i will include it no matter what others do even if i keep adding it daily for one year , i have a very long breath.

If you dont want HAMAS claims so change the title to THE ISRAELI NARRATIVE OF THE 2014 ISRAEL-GAZA CONFLICT.

HAMAS is one of the only two sides of the conflict so not including its claims make the articl out of balance and whatever you feel about them or about palestinians is irrelevant, Imagine if HAMAS were at a justice court wouldnt the judge hear their claims or would he say : listen terrorists i will not hear from you and i will sentence you to so and so

IRISZOOM ANADOLU is the same source for both claims but the 161 is old and this one is newer check this

http://www.aa.com.tr/ar/s/379950

https://twitter.com/aa_arabic/status/504659476260331520

I like the fact that you discribed the agency as an accepted source i guess if you knew that the 1000 figure is also from them you would have changed your mind HaHa.

.Zaid almasri (talk) 07:28, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• No. The infobox is for a quick overview. Sources for info there should have at least minimal reliability. Hamas claims don't have minimal reliability. But including it somewhere in the article makes sense, though I don't think that Islamic/Hezballah/Turkish site is sufficient even for there. I don't know what to make of AlWatan, it would be better if there were English sources for that. ¤ ehudshapira 15:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

"Hamas claims don't have minimal reliability." Why? DocumentError (talk) 18:20, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

On one hand a history of fabrications, and no credible publication even mentions this. On the other, the Israeli info is so much far off from these claims, and so much more reliable and better accounted for, that mentioning in the overview, for the sake of "impartiality", the info from dubious sites that supposedly quote Hamas' claims just makes no sense. ¤ ehudshapira 22:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• No, don't put it in the infobox, per ehudshapira. Multiple reliable sources affirm the 65–66 number (for which reason I have removed, as others have in the past, the mischaracterization of the numbers as "IDF"); the Hamas claim is an outlier. It's not clear that the sources for it are reliable (i.e. it's not clear they are reliable as sources of the claim "Hamas says X", independent of the truth/verifiability of "X"); even if they are, the Hamas claim of soldiers killed belongs with Hamas' other dubious claims, either in a section of this article's body (as was the case in early incarnations of this article, and should perhaps be made the case once more) or in the separate media article (as is the case at the moment). -sche (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
• No - Hamas' data is propaganda. It's not as reliable as the other sources.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
• No - There are people who say the Earth is flat, but in Misplaced Pages we don't consider this claim more than a fringe and hilarious theory. Let's keep this article serious and encyclopedic, please.--Wlglunight93 (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

• Neither First off, Hamas is a recognized governmental entity which had been duly and legitimatly elected through Democratic processes and as such numbers that Hamas agencies report have as much weight and legitimacy as any governmental enity (i.e. no legitimacy at all.) Secondly, playing the numbers game is what politicians and corporate entities do, and when it comes to body counts no claim is even remotely accurate regardless of its source. Recommend employing more accurate rhetoric such as "The number of dead terrorists were claimed to be anywhere from xxx to xxx." Damotclese (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I understand what you say. Nevertheless, Israel doesn't lie when it counts its own casualties (both military and civilian). Hamas is a different thing. And with all due to respect to the democratically-elected islamofascist government of Hamas, remember they took Gaza in a bloody coup. I'm just saying... throwing your opponents from the roof is not the most exquisite sample of democracy, if i may say so.--Wlglunight93 (talk) 16:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Not a very neutral argument.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not neutral at all, but doesn't mean it's not true. There is plenty of evidence that Hamas provides wildly inaccurate claims and never bother to correct themselves or explain their mistakes. IDF provides facts that are usually correct and admits and corrects its mistakes when they are discovered. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise ? WarKosign (talk) 06:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The argument is that Hamas are liars but Israel is not. I'm sure someone on pro-Palestine side can spin the Vice versa. I've actually seen the wiki end of this war play out. Just because its not neutral doesn't mean it's true? Perhaps but I'm going bother entertaining your argument because of your inherent bias.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 22:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

An article can include both contradictory POV even when it is obvious that at least one of them is false. They have to have minimal credibility. This claim contradics all the evidence of any other source, so it should be treated as a fringe theory - something perhaps worth mentioning, but not at the same level as the respectable theories. For this claim to be feasible there would have to be a huge conspiracy by the Israeli and the international media, as well as the 930 families of the supposed IDF casualties that are suppressed. WarKosign (talk) 06:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry that it's not glaringly obvious. I actually have no position here. That being why I've yet to clarify a position. I'm reviewing some of the comments here and also a number of sources on the subject. In reviewing the comments I came across an editor who seems to push the thought that since Hamas were violent in coup unrelated in every way to this article's subject matter they are unreliable. Really it's off topic BS. In my opinion intellectual dishonesty and as initially said not neutral. When discussing anothers credibility I do find somewhat important not to destroy your own. As I'm sure you're aware consensus is not democracy. ] Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Misplaced Pages policy. Don't poison the well you drink from.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 07:44, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment So it seems the second set of numbers are older. The first set of numbers line up with other sources such as IDF sources. 1000 soldiers per Hamas means the same thing as 1000 militants per IDF. It seems credible to me. It seems also just as reliable as the IDF as a source. Though the reliablity of both parties seems questionable.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 07:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't laughed so hard in a while. The above discussion is akin to saying the 9/11 Truth movement is as reliable as official US investigations. Sure, both cannot be fully trusted... but c'mon!!! The comparison is too silly. Just look how much space their claims have in September 11 attacks. On this article, we can't ignore the claims completely. But to insist they (e.g. Osama Hamdan, or this "Research the history, my brothers. <antisemitic slogan>" genius on Hamas TV) are in the same ballpark as mainstream sources is hysterical. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 15:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

A suggestion: add your !vote as Yes or No in addition to laughing. If the consensus is clear enough, this can be closed. Kingsindian (talk) 16:13, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no reason to say yes or no. Polling is not a substitute for discussion. I also don't mind if the source is left in or not. That being the first sources. The second source is outdated. The second source would certainly seem unreliable. As far as the above tangent, I'm sorry to inform that I will not take that into account. I wasn't making a comparison to mainstream sources. I was making a comparison to the IDF as a source. IDF (as well as others in Israel) propaganda has been well documented as well. If you insist on using the IDF as a source and these other editors insist on on the Hamas source then I fail to see the issue with it's inclusion. I'm sure you don't like it but it seems the other side doesn't like your views either.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 04:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• No I made up my mind. The claims are dubious and the sources are crap. WP:FRINGE applies. This doesn't belong in the infobox. Kingsindian (talk) 16:15, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Question: if, when this RFC concludes, there is no consensus on whether or not the Hamas claims should be included, what happens? Is the default that disputed content is omitted unless there is consensus that it should be added, or is the default that disputed content is added unless there is consensus that it should be omitted? -sche (talk) 19:33, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

In the event of "No consensus" it is my interpretation of WP:NOCONSENSUS that it would remain. But then as I understand the inclusion of this source in the article prompted this RFC.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 04:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

There was never a consensus on the inclusion of the edit, so in my interpretation, the status quo would reign, i.e., it would not be included (point 2 in WP:NOCONSENSUS). Kingsindian (talk) 04:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Images in the article

I would like to clean up the images through the article.

• Infobox - there were two images, now there is a collage, which is simply 4 pre-existing images mashed together. Can someone think of a kind of a single image that could represent the conflict ? If not, the minimum number is 2, one per side. Do we really need all 4 in the collage ? If the answer is yes, They should be images not used elsewhere in the article.
• Background - background talks mostly about the violation of the previous ceasefire. On one side there is the blockade of gaza, with the map that represents it (own work, based on OCHA reports). There is no image representing rocket fire from Gaza during this time in this section. Perhaps some image of rocket shards or damaged houses ? I'm sure there are IDF-released images, is there a more neutral source ?
• Immediate events - seems ok, 2 images of events during Operation Brother's keeper
• Operation timeline - 2 images from each side. There are 2 maps of Gaza: one of launch sides (by IDF) and one of attacked locations in Gaza. On one hand it makes sense to have two maps near each other. On the other hand I think the map of launch sides belongs in the alleged human shields, "use of civilian infrastructures". If it's agreed that I move it there I will put another image of damage in Israel instead.
• Impact on residents - 3 images for Gaza vs 2 for Israel, 1 of the 3 is another map of damaged sites in Gaza. I suggest moving this map up instead the one in the timeline since it shows the whole Gaza strip and not only a part of it.

Image of the wounded girl's caption is very long - is her story notable ? Is it important that she was injured in her uncle's house? The fact that Israel is treating her in Jerusalem is somewhat notable, but I don't think it belongs in the caption.

• Reactions - ok, 2 equivalent pictures, same order as the text
• Alleged violations - at the moment only one violation has an image, destruction of homes has a picture of people standing under an excavator, with the caption saying they are retrieving the dead during a ceasefire. Do we want a single image for each violations ? If not, how do we pick which ones get images ? I can think of the following images for violations

• Civilian deaths - plenty of images of the dead or the wounded. How graphical and explicit should it be ?

• Warning prior to the attacks - there probably exist be IDF-released images of the papers that IDF dropped on Gaza before attacks.

• Destruction of homes - sure there are destroyed and damaged houses. Best find one that can be proved to be destroyed intentionally and not as collateral damage while attacking something else.
• Shelling of UNWRA schools - there was an image of an UNWRA school as it was used for shelter. Perhaps there is an image of the holes that are "consistent with shelling" ?
• Infrastructure - is there anything related to infrastructure ? A line of people waiting to receive water rations ?
• Attack on journalists - don't think there is anything to show
• Human shields by Israel - there is a single alleged case, with an image of the note that he supposedly wrote while in IDF's prison. Probably not in public domain.
• Killing of collaborators - there are images in the news of militants aiming at hooded people, probably not public domain
• Use of civilian structures for military purposes - the rocket launch site map from above
• Medical facilities and personnel - the ruined ambulance from the collage. We can't know if it was used for military purposes and its caption does not make any claim. The section says that it is illegal to attack an ambulance unless it's used for military purposes, so I think the image demonstrates both cases.
• Urging or forcing civilians to stay in their homes - there is an image of people sanding on the roof that IDF released.
• Rocket attacks on Israeli civilians - something that displays the damages, again ? I think this and destruction of homes above can be skipped.
• Militant use of UN facilities - don't think there are public domain images at the moment. If UN or IDF releases something we make consider it. Hamas will surely not release anything of the kind.
• Intimidation of journalists - ditto

• Military weaponry and techniques - seems ok to me: 3 images, one of rocket ranges (gaza) one of a howitzer (IDF) one of a soldier looking on a tunnel (both)

Please respond to my consideration, if there is agreement or apathy I will being cleaning it up. WarKosign (talk) 21:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Re the infobox images: I thought the two images that were there before were sufficient, and better because they didn't duplicate images which were (and belonged) elsewhere in the article, so no complaints from me if you switch it back from 4 to 2.

It's redundant to have both File:Israeli Strikes on North Gaza.jpg and File:Unosat-gaza.png in the article, and File:Israeli Strikes on North Gaza.jpg is a better map than File:Unosat-gaza.png (the former shows more of the territory of Gaza, the latter only shows less and is frankly harder to look over and make sense of). I would replace File:Unosat-gaza.png with File:Israeli Strikes on North Gaza.jpg. I think this is something you are proposing to do, along with moving the other map (the Israeli map of launch sites in Gaza)?

Would it be useful to have an image gallery (probably at the bottom of the article)? A lot of the images that have been removed from the article over the past few weeks have been removed with edit summaries indicating desire for numerical equality of "Israeli pictures" and "Palestinian pictures", rather than disagreement with the relevance or helpfulness of the images. A gallery would seem well-suited to showing things like how geographically spread-out the damage to Israeli infrastructure was and how severe the damage to Gazan infrastructure was, and could possibly also contain pictures of various Gazan and Israeli weapons (or possibly the gallery of that could go in the 'military weaponry' section). -sche (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose all changes DocumentError (talk) 00:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Points:

• In the infobox: there should be 2 images, as before. I don't know who changed it to 4. They're not representative either. 2 of them are in Israel, one is an Israeli weapon, and one is in Gaza.
• The background section:agree that there can be a picture about rocket attacks. There can be pictures of truce violations by either side. The closure picture is a separate background. I don't know of any free chart/picture describing truce violations.
• The UNOSAT image is describing the damage in Khuzaa area, which was one of the major areas of conflict. It is a large picture, so the thumbnail is hard to see. But it can be seen quite well by clicking on the image. The inset on the top-left shows a zoomed in version. I also plan to add one of Shujaiyya, also another major conflict area.
• The disparity of 3 vs 2 in the impact section is already discussed elsewhere. As I noted, NPOV does not imply that there be same number of images everywhere. Given the differing impact on the two sides, it is not at all undue to have 3 images for the Palestinian side. The 3 images all are illustrating important things mentioned in the text. The UN image is obviously relevant. The Beit Hanoun picture is illustrating the statement that 70% of the housing stock is gone and it is uninhabitable. The third picture is about number of children affected, the subject of the last paragraph. I can put up a different picture for that if needed, and move the picture of Shayma to the casualties section.
• Agree that the caption of the picture of Shayma is too long. Someone added that she was being treated in Israel for some reason. She is being treated in East Jerusalem. And I agree that wherever she is treated is irrelevant. Kingsindian (talk) 01:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
• I do not support putting the IDF map of rocket launch sites in the "use of civilian structures for military purposes" section. Firstly, it is one-sided. Secondly, it does not say anything about all the launches being from near civilian structures. Kingsindian (talk) 02:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

You can argue whether or not east Jerusalem should belong to Israel or not, but at this point it does. So if she is treated in a hospital in east Jerusalem, she is treated in an Israeli hospital. WarKosign (talk) 10:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

If we insist on keeping the identity of the hospital in the caption, then we should identify it by name, not place. In other words, it should be noted that Shayma is being treated at the Sisters of St. Joseph Hospital, not "an hospital in East Jerusalem." DocumentError (talk) 16:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

— Let me sum up what I think should be agreed, so we can apply at least some of the changes:

• Lead - Replace the collage with two images representing both sides. For now same images that we had before: Ruined Kware home and Iron dome firing. Could there be something better ? Maybe no lead picture at all ?
• Background - add an image of rocket shards or property damage caused by rockets fired during the 2012 truce. There are such images from IDF, I'll try to find a more neutral source.
• Shayma picture - replace the caption with "Shaymaa al-Masri, five years old, wounded in bombing on July 9"
• Gallery at the end - sounds like a good idea to me, maybe it's the place to have more pictures of ruined houses in Gaza. Here the number of pictures can be more proportional to the damage.

A suggestion for a less agreed upon item:

• Use of civilian facilities - there are IDF released maps such as this that specifically show launches very near civilian infrastructures.

WarKosign (talk) 11:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose the inclusion of the above IDF map. Labeling buildings as weapons caches without any visible evidence is not sufficient to be included. I am unconvinced about the other IDF map too, which is purporting to show sites of rocket launches. Even with attribution, it might not be good enough. Kingsindian (talk) 16:22, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you have evidence that any other map or image is accurate ? There are many red dots on the maps that show damage to Gaza. How do you know each dot really represents a damaged house ? If indeed there are inaccuracies in these maps, surely someone would pop up and publish a report that discredits the other side. WarKosign (talk) 18:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a fundamental distinction between sources by either side and third party sources. The UN map is based on satellite data. Moreover, the IDF map of rocket launches has size of red dots too big, they basically cover the whole of Gaza. Kingsindian (talk) 18:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Executions by Hamas

@Kingsindian:You have put an undue tag on a paragraph in a section dealing with Hamas executing civilians. Two reasons why I think it is not undue:

• A source for one of the execution cases says clearly that the bodies where brought to a hospital to be counted as civilian casualties of Israeli's operation. There is no source for this happening in this case, but since there is no mention of Hamas' own victims in the "Hamas-controlled Gaza Health ministry" casualties report, it seems reasonable to assume they became a part of the civilian count.
• This killing happened during the conflict and arguably because of the conflict - humanitarian situation created the need for food handouts and therefore tension and scuffles. Whether or not the killing was unavoidable or not is a question. A creative reporter can write an article on how this killing is Israel's fault. WarKosign (talk) 13:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Regarding your 2 points:

• No, it is not "reasonable" to assume such things unless there is a source which states that these are counted as civilian casualties.To clarify, I have only added the undue tag for the last sentence, about food handouts.
• Of course many things happen due to the conflict. I am sure there are some old or sick people in Israel, or old or sick people in Gaza who died or had problems due to the conflict. That is very different from getting killed in the conflict, or getting killed as a collaborator. Kingsindian (talk) 13:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Given that there is no source that says one way or the other, at least not for all the casualties, either way we count the casualties is an assumptions. One assumption is that they are reduced from the civilian numbers published by the ministry, another assumption they are included in the number. How do you pick one ? The default seems to be counting them towards Israel until there are official reports stating otherwise, but it is factually incorrect. Did people in Gaza stop dying from natural causes during the conflict ? WarKosign (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: I do not get your point. Of course people died from natural causes during the conflict. It is not sufficient to say, "oh we don't know" maybe they are included. If there is some source which says they are included, it should be provided per WP:BURDEN. Otherwise, the sources should be used and attributed, as is done. There is a long methodology section which talks about the various organizations. It does not say "let's count all those people who died in this period and blame Israel". Kingsindian (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Agree with points made by Kingsindian. This does seem undue. DocumentError (talk) 17:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

How do you rate reliability of this source ? Does it deserve a mention ? "It identifies itself as a nonpartisan, not-for-profit international policy council and think tank for international and domestic policy, based in New York City" WarKosign (talk) 19:26, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Unreliable. Anyone can identify themselves as anything. Given the criticism the Gatestone Institute has received, and the people involved (e.g. John Bolton, Zuhdi Jasser, et. al.), it should not be seen as anything other than an editorial board. DocumentError (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Or this one: "Human rights groups acknowledge that people killed by Hamas as collaborators and people who died naturally, or perhaps through domestic violence, are most likely counted as well" WarKosign (talk) 19:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

There are two tags, one for the whole section, I do not think the section has too much detail, though it could be better organised. At some point it may even need to be split off, and have a summary here instead, but there is no sign of that at the moment.

The question of the shooting over food handouts is separately tagged as "undue". The salient part of the "reason" field said

What do food handouts have to do with the conflict or collaborators?

Clearly they have nothing to do with collaborators, I would have thought equally clearly, a lot to do with the conflict. The section is titled Killing of suspected collaborators. I have therefore moved the sentence, and the previous relating to killing of protesters to the following section Killing of Gazan civilians. I have left the {{Undue}} tag, for the moment. It seems to me that a government killing its own citizens is a very significant matter, therefore I propose to remove it unless any convincing argument can be given not to.

Arguably Killing of suspected collaborators should be a sub-section of Killing of Gazan civilians.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC).

Without even having seen your comment, I arrived at the same conclusion that "Killing of suspected collaborators should be a sub-section of Killing of Gazan civilians" or at least, the former should follow the latter, so I did this. I think the section is not too detailed anymore (it was until I cleaned it up a day or two ago). -sche (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: The Gatestone institute is not WP:RS; however the NYT is fine (it is already quoted in the article in the methodology section). The issue is not whether there are errors in the statistics or not. Of course there are likely errors. The statement in the NYT is not saying that all incidents of natural deaths etc. are included. It is saying that that it is likely that there are some natural deaths which are included in the statistics. All figures are preliminary, and then UN and human rights orgs etc. conduct their own investigations, in the methodology. This has nothing to do with whether a police action resulting in killing of two people deserves to be included in war casualties. These are not military incidents. Kingsindian (talk) 21:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign and Rich Farmbrough: The section is labeled "Alleged violations of International Humanitarian law". The incident with the food handouts is a police action. There was a scuffle and during the altercation, police opened fire and two people were killed. Whatever we may think of this, a police incident like this is not a violation of international humanitarian law. This is much different from rockets falling on your citizens, or killing suspected collaborators, which are military actions. Kingsindian (talk) 21:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Agreed, the killing itself does not look like a violation of IHL. The fact that (per NY times) the victims of executions are counted as casualties should be in the casualties section, I'll edit the last paragraph of the methodology section. WarKosign (talk) 21:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• Hamas accused of abusing Fatah members during Gaza war

I believe this source is relevant to the execution of suspected collaborators, but not sure which parts. Is beating relevant ? Is suspected collaborators being members of the Fatah relevant ?

There is also this source that MarciulionisHOF found:

• Hamas fires at sick Gazans trying to leave for medical treatment

Sounds like mis-treatment of gazan civilians, potentially relevant, but not no evidence of actual murder. WarKosign (talk) 08:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

On "Claiming Victory"

Naturally both sides will claim victory. However, I don't think we should conclusively say what the result of the conflict is. At this point, I think "Return to status quo", "Inconclusive" or "Ceasefire negotiations ongoing" would be a good place holder. Knightmare72589 (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Only Hamas is claiming victory (they also claim to have been massacred - oxymoron?). Israel is claiming to have "handed a heavy blow" to Hamas and that "non of Hamas demands were met" (albeit, Israel will increase fishing areas and possibly give more things Hamas wanted -- no airport though, duh!). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 22:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

According to this, both sides claim victory. Although people in Israel say that Israel didn't go far enough. Knightmare72589 (talk) 23:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

This source poses a problem. On one hand, they are (best I am aware) what should be considered a reliable source. On the other, nowhere in that speech did Netanyahu say anything about victory. He said precisely what I said in my above comment. I don't know what the protocol is in this type of instance. What do other sources say? This one (best I am aware) is accurate.

This is unrelated but I'm too tired to open/edit another section. Do me a favor (someone) and add it to the relevant talk section. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

There are sources saying that both sides claim victory. Netanyahu is quoted saying that all the goals of the operation were achieved - isn't it the definition of victory ? WarKosign (talk) 07:21, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a bit complicated, but I've decided to allow others resolve this one. Certainly, if there are sources -- we should consider them seriously. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I was just going to make a post about this all. I think this is a classic problem with Misplaced Pages today and citing both sides. The easiest thinng would be to cite the results in the Egyptian Peace Agreement as the results of the war. Now I've been spending the last 30 minutes trying to find it and I am unable. Does anyone have the actual contents somewhere? Also we must remember that both these governments survive de facto on this war and both have achieved their objectives of staying in power. Any traditional war would seek the occupation, at least temporarily of Gaza. Israels government never sought this. While Hamas knows this and was thus willing to sacrifice any number of people until the anticipated withdrawl happened. Bad people... 79.136.64.95 (talk) 07:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits are problematic

The recent edits by Monopoly31121993 are problematic. I have fixed the first part but mostly what's needed now is the other one which was deleted about the situation in the West Bank. Just behind the info is behind a paywall doesn't mean we can't include it. Thirdly, don't add a fact tag without any reason given at all. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

(Merging from below)

@Monopoly31121993: You made three edits to the lead. One of them has been reverted at the time I write this, but I will still try to address all of them.

• edit1 You add "dubious" tag based on "Hamas" claims. Firstly, the claim comes from the Ministry of Interior and is attributed there. It was also reported by Channel 4 news, as indicated in the second source, again with attribution. The dubious tag should be removed for these reasons alone. Secondly, there is little reason to doubt the 20,000 figure. For example, see this source (I included it in the article afterwards), which quotes an estimate that 10,000 tonnes were dropped from the air alone, a figure which does not include tank/artillery shells.
• edit2 - There is no requirement for having a source which is not behind a paywall for verifiability. See WP:PAYWALL. Use Resource Exchange to verify the information or use the Talk page etc.
• edit3 - You added a POV tag. For placing a POV tag, one has to open a discussion on the talk page, detailing what is not neutral. Otherwise, anyone can remove the tag. Kingsindian (talk) 23:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Also note that you can find the cached version of the Haaretz articles by searching on Google so you don't have to pay. --IRISZOOM (talk) 00:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

All of the edits should be reverted for the reasons stated here. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM:@Kingsindian:The Ministry of Interior's claim provided no information on how it arrived at that figure and it clearly seems to be fabricated and probably qualifies as a fringe theory. Just think about this. There were around 5,000 Israeli strikes on Gaza. The average bomb weighs 500 pounds therefore the average strike consisted of 16 bombs hitting a target. The biggest bombs weigh 2,000 pounds so in that case the average strike would have been 4 massive bombs hitting a target. Does that sound reasonable or fabricated? We've all read the news reports of these strikes and never have I read a report of 16 500 bombs falling on a target, even shelling normally consists of between 1-2 and 10 shells. I have also read reports of even smaller bombs than 500 pound bombs being used against targets. Without some sort of transparency, I would certainly call this claim dubious. Why something so clearly biased and unsupported by neutral verifiable facts needs to be introduction is unclear.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 19:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993: Your calculations, even if they were correct, would be WP:OR. As it happens, they are not correct. In just one arena (Shujaiyya), 7,000 high explosive shells were dropped. Also, I have already given a "neutral" estimate of 10,000 tonnes dropped from the air alone in the military section. As to transparency, I would have taken that argument seriously if you also had tagged the IDF numbers in the lead, which are just as opaque. If we report the IDF claim, we report the Palestinian claim, which has been quoted by Channel 4 news, and a partial estimate quoted by the Sydney Morning Herald. Kingsindian (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: It's not WP:OR because I never even suggested that I was putting it into the text. All I was doing was demonstrating how anyone could see how such a claim was obviously fabricated. Btw I don't think the channel 4 report which cited an unnamed and now deceased bomb disposal expert as its source meet Misplaced Pages requirements of a verifiable source. I think we can all agree that cable TV news anchors will say whatever they want to get ratings. Also, just so you know this is the largest artillery in WWII Krupp K5, its shells weighed around 500 lbs. A typical shell today weighs about 50 lbs. (see,M101 howitzer). As always Kings, I'm willing to discuss this with you but this seems to be blatantly fringe theory/ propaganda produced by one of the governments fighting a war and looking to get as much support as it can.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993: The guy was unnamed but he was identified as the head of the bomb disposal squad in Gaza, and he is named in the other source I cited. Anyway, the fact that you added the dubious tag based on your calculations is what is wrong and WP:OR. If your argument is that media will report anything to get ratings, then let's start by deleting half the article which is based on media reports quoting the IDF, including the sentence just before this one. And I again note the source I mentioned earlier, which is neutral, saying 10,000 tonnes were dropped from the air alone, a figure which does not include tank/artillery shells. If you have other estimates of bombs dropped on Gaza, feel free to discuss them, but this kind of handwaving and second-guessing of sources is not sufficient. Kingsindian (talk) 19:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I have reverted the unexplained removal from the lead. Also, the dubious tag has not been explained, except for a feeling based wholly on WP:OR calculations. Kingsindian (talk) 20:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian:This does not belong in the lead. It is a completely one sided statement of unverifiable facts from the Hamas government in Gaza. I kept the information and even added the Gaza government's remarks about how many bombs and shells were fired (WHICH YOU REMOVED...). Just to be clear here. I deleted nothing. I moved the content to the bottom the page and expanded it with additional information. Please revert your edit immediately and by the way you have just reverted 4 items on this page in less than half an hour. Slow down.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 21:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993: I have only reverted twice, as far as I can see. The other one was an IP which does not count. (still I have self-reverted for now). As to your arguments that it is "one-sided", I am not sure why you don't apply that to the IDF figures which form the sentence just before this. I have asked you twice and you never responded. For some reason you continue insisting that these figures are dubious, even after I added a neutral estimate of 10,000 tonnes dropped which only counts the aerial bombing. If you feel it is dubious, you need to provide sources which claim otherwise. This kind of reasoning that it comes from the "Hamas govt. in Gaza" so it is automatically dubious will not do. Kingsindian (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2014 (UTC)— Kingsindian (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

@Kingsindian: There is no balance in terms of figures of bomb tonnage and therefore this only belongs in the Weapons section and not in the introduction. Also it needs to show the entire claim of 70,000 artillary shells (1.5 per minute for the entire conflict) and 7,000 bombs (20 per hour). The claim is dubious strait away. Your denials here looking more and more like Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993: You can keep insisting without evidence that it is dubious, however, that counts for precisely nothing. Regarding your point that there are no figures for bomb tonnage for the Israeli side, that is totally irrelevant. The previous sentence, which you studiously continue to ignore, is wholly based on IDF figures, and gives the number of rockets fired. Each rocket obviously weighs less than a ton, and as mentioned elsewhere most carry an explosive load of 10-20 kg, so a tonnage figure would give something vastly less. I find it very strange that you don't see a long sentence wholly quoting the IDF and using their terms of reference (strikes vs rockets) -- even though a strike can drop multiple bombs -- while a Palestinian source quoting tonnage (backed by an independent estimate) is automatically dubious and POV pushing. Kingsindian (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Iron Dome

We should specify in the introduction how many rockets fell in open areas, in urban areas and how many were intercepted by the Iron Dome, like in the lead of Operation Pillar of Defense. We could also add some information about the important performance of this defense system during the war.--Wlglunight93 (talk) 06:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

A good idea. Work based on other, long standing articles is good form. Here's a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarciulionisHOF (talk • contribs) 07:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

We need a better source than an image by IDF spokesperson on twitter, something in quotable textual form. Some people say that the low number of Israeli casualties is due to the rockets not being fatal. This article claims Iron Dome isn't working at all. WarKosign (talk) 07:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I added two reliable sources to describe Iron Dome's performance, including an article of the Aviation Week contradicting the analysis of Ted Postol (he's a physicist who doesn't know anything about military issues). Remember that Hezbollah fired 4,000 rockets in 2006 and killed 44 Israeli civilians (plus a number of reservists).--Wlglunight93 (talk) 07:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The aviation week article simply quotes the Israeli spokesman Defence Minister and an unnamed Israeli senior official, together with a person from Rafael, who were the manufacturers. Hard to call that independent verification. One could read this in any news media. It adds nothing at all of any interest. Kingsindian (talk) 08:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Many sources (including newspapers) state that Iron Dome intercepted 735 rockets. Few rockets landed in populated areas in comparison. Aviation Week is not the only one. Numbers don't lie: firing the same amount of rockets, Hezbollah managed to kill 44 Israeli civilians in 2006, while Hamas killed 6 (mainly with mortar shells, which in general can't be intercepted by ID).--Wlglunight93 (talk) 09:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: What kind of independent verification would you expect to find ? I'm sure the system specs and rocket trajectories are kept secret so not to help Hamas find ways to overcome them, so no uninvolved 3rd party can verify the claims. WarKosign (talk) 09:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

That comparison doesn't work fully, which is what Theodore Postol also has said, pointing to warning system and shelters that the Israelis has improved. --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the IDF spokesperson source for this information. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Of course military matters are not easy to discern. This is why you need qualified specialists talking about them, not people mindlessly repeating claims. This is a better source, though even this is unsatisfactory. Kingsindian (talk) 09:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Postol's claims don't make sense. He has an obsessive agenda against missile defense systems (perhaps motivated by certain economic interests, I don't know). Again, I repeat: 735 rockets headed toward populated areas were intercepted by Iron Dome. There are plenty of sources confirming this number. Besides, civil defenses in 2006 (warnings, shelters, etc) were nearly the same.--Wlglunight93 (talk) 09:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You can argue with Postol if you like. It is useless arguing with me. I am not a military expert. Kingsindian (talk) 09:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a technical issue contaminated further by the failure to produce usable data by the IDF both in earlier operations and in this war, and my deep-seated interests in that technology's success. Subrata Ghoshroy, 'Israel’s Iron Dome: a misplaced debate,' Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, also writes that US reports are highly focused on Hamas rocketry. This is true and can be verified. Google 'gassam'/'Fajr'/etc.+Hamas+Gaza and you get results in the millions. Google a similar combination of 'Soltam M71 guns'/Paladin M109 howitzers/ Hellfire missiles/ Merkava tanks/Dvora/ and Sa’ar gunships/Apache helicopters/F-16/GBU-28+Israel+Gaza and you get miserable results. There are strong commercial interests involved as well since Gaza has long been Isael's laboratory for testing (and selling on the basis of results) all sorts of military technology. We should only be looking at independent technical analysis, not dependant on a side's partial and unverifiable claims (that goes for Hamas too) in order to avoid these traps, and Postol for one, use attribution by all means, is independent, qualified specifically in this area, and neutral as well, since he made similar claims against U.S. defence missile systems. The article by Uzi Rubin calling him 'amateurish' is farcical and self-interested.Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Same person criticizing both Israel and the US doesn't make him neutral - or you can say that Iran is neutral. WarKosign (talk) 14:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

BTW, here is an idea for Hamas: stop giving IDF reasons/excuses to operate in Gaza and this will mess up testing of weapons and hurt Israel's weapons sales. WarKosign (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The point is, he is an expert in missile defense, and considered such by the American Congressional Committees in their investigations and by his peers in the field (b) editors have no understanding of the technicalities and should desist from pathetic attempts to criticize the kind of expertise our sources provide (c)the two examples are examples only for analogy by hyperbole, and the point of simile is lost when hyperbole is used. As to the last point, Hamas's respect for ceasefires has never stopped the IDF from bombing Gaza, (any more than the PLO's respect for the brokered ceasefire in 1981 stopped Israel's political decision to invade Lebanon, ostensibly to protect its north from rocketry) or running across it at night regularly to create sleep-deprivation tramatizing sonic booms.Nishidani (talk) 17:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

To call him an expert on missile defense is giving him too much credit. In reality, he isn't taken very seriously by his peers. He is almost teetering on conspiracy theory. He bases almost all his conclusions of missile defense on amateur video or poor quality videos, dating all the way back to the Patriot Missile Defense. Not to mention that he believes that MIT is trying to suppress him. Somehow, he's tricked media into thinking he is an expert in missile defense. One of his colleagues, Richard Lloyd, who regularly backs Postol up on his criticism of the Iron Dome has a stake in the game, because Richard Lloyd is trying to get his type of Tamir missile for the Iron Dome picked up by the IDF. Basically, the types of missiles the Iron Dome uses is being made by Richard Lloyd's rival. Knightmare72589 (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea at all what the discussion is about. I see lot of soapboxing. What is the issue? Do you want to get Postol out of the article? Then the answer is no. He has been quoted by Reuters, MIT tech review, BusinessWeek and Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Any criticism you want to make of his methods are not relevant. Kingsindian (talk) 23:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Which is why I said he somehow got the media to think he's an expert on missile defense when he's really not. Not to mention his methodology is faulty and unscientific. Knightmare72589 (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment: getting quoted on a bunch of news-medias means some type of notability. It doesn't mean reliability (anyone remember Saeb Erekat promising 500+ "massacred" on CNN and later being confronted on this lie by Wolf Blitzer?). So, in the hypothetical case where someone is notable but heavily criticized (is this guy notable enough to be heavily criticized? *brain freeze*), then there's real problem on how/if to include such point of view/claims. Might be good to get a wider opinion on a "generic" non specific case from a band of Wwikipedia long-time contributors rather than run 50000 arguments about this every other Monday. Even if you two come to agreement, two weeks from now, two others will pop in and redo the same argument. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 07:37, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dead links

@Wlglunight93: This edit is not acceptable. There is no requirement for a dead link to be fixed immediately or the content to be removed. I would urge you to read Misplaced Pages:Link_rot and WP:PRESERVE again. The correct link could have been found by Googling for it, as I did in 2 seconds. I would appreciate it if you put back the perfectly sourced information with the correct link. Here it is. Kingsindian (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, I will. But those who put the sources should be more careful when writing the links. We are talking about recent articles, not events from several years ago whose links may be lost due to the passage of time. This political POV claim also needs proper citation, since it's not an infallible truth. Other much less controversial statements are better quoted in this article. Besides, it's not true that only 3% of rockets hit populated areas. I think another sentence is necessary to counterbalance this claim, don't you?--Wlglunight93 (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

It is irrelevant for this issue. Removing sourced content like this is unacceptable. If you think something is wrong with the content, it advances a particular POV etc., then you should make edits and give edit summaries based on that. This kind of behaviour, if repeated, will be seen as WP:WIKILAWYERING and WP:GAMING. Kingsindian (talk) 13:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

If this kind of behaviour by several parties on this page persists, I think they should all be reported at the AE case regarding WarKosign, who is amenable to discussion, studies the rule and generally does not fly in the face of commonsense, to have their behaviour examined. They should be there, not him, and en bloc. Nishidani (talk) 13:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

From the data currently in the article, 4.9% of the rockets fired from Gaza hit populated areas in Israel, 16.1% were intercepted by the Iron Dome, 6.1% or more fell in Gaza (this number is from another source so can't be used in the article) and the rest either failed to launch or was ignored by Iron Dome and allowed to fall in empty areas. The article claiming 3% is from July 29, so either it uses outdated data, uses a source other than IDF (which?) or is simply wrong. Perhaps it's best to mention the unreliability of this number while leaving the argument intact - 4.9% is almost as low as 3%. WarKosign (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

All these figures are evidently provisory, even the 4.9% one. Much depends on what you mean by 'populated areas'. And you would not expect much statistical variation between the first three weeks and the subsequent three weeks on Hamas rocket efficiency. If anything, one would expect a deterioration. I don't know how one gets to 4.9% with such precision. I'm not prepossessed by the point however. I just don't think the IDF has much credibility on matters like this. That's why I prefer outside experts. Nishidani (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I took the numbers from the Iron Dome statistics and divided the 735 intercepted rockets by the 4564 fired projectiles and rounded it to 4.9%. Assuming these numbers are final, they should be correct - it's not just some guy watching the sky and counting rockets as they fly by, but results of automatic system tracking objects on radars and classifying them by trajectory. All the data is surely recorded for future reviews. By 'populated areas' I mean areas that the Iron Dome is configured to protect. It surely includes a safety margin to account for inaccuracy of the rockets, so these populated areas are somewhat larger than the actual areas people live in. An outside expert would need to have specialized radars located strategically to be able to record all the rocket launches - which is something nobody but the Iron Dome operators have. Hamas could potentially know the number of rockets launched, if it could collect the data from all the militants that were launching - including those killed mid-action by the IDF, but even then they wouldn't know what happened to each rocket after the launch. WarKosign (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

"Israeli forces had deliberately killed 296 children in Gaza"

In IP added {{Verify credibility}} to each of the citations which are currently being used to support this statement, including the citation of ynet. It's my understanding that the credibility of ynet is generally accepted — however, the full text of the cited ynet article is "At least 296 Palestinian children and teenagers have been killed in Gaza since the beginning of Israel's offensive against the Palestinian Hamas movement on July 8, UNICEF announced Saturday. 'Children account for 30% of civilian casualties,' said UNICEF." That does not support the claim that Israel deliberately targeted the children, or even the weaker claim that Monica Awad said Israel deliberately targeted the children, so I changed the template to {{Not in source}}. Let discussion commence about whether or not any of the citations, or the wording of the paragraph, should be changed... -sche (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

IMO it's enough of misrepresentation to be reverted on the spot as vandalism before further edits make the revert difficult. If there is anything new and relevant in the source quoted, it can be added to the relevant sections. WarKosign (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Ynet indeed doesn't say the killing was intentional. For the other two sources - this is what they say. Anyone knows what el-balad is ? Middleeastmonitor looks British and openly pro-palestinian, how reliable is it ? I do not see this claim reported on major and supposedly neutral sites, nor on UNICEF.org WarKosign (talk) 17:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Misleading citation of sources should be considered immediately revertible, as per WarKoSign. Most of our sources are pro-Israel (Ynet, Times of Israel, Haaretz (70% of articles), New York Times, etc.etc., so having a pro-Palestinian bias is not in itself troublesome, but MEM should not be used for facts. Commonsense tells one that no one can have knowledge of such a phenomenon, i.e 296 Palestinians killed by a deliberate desire to kill them qua children and therefore that should not be in the text. It is well known that children, teenagers are killed regularly by the IDF in ground actions, but in these cases the totals are known (West Bank demonstrations and the Gaza border infringement (children being shot because they enter the no-go zone to get chicory etc. 300-600 yards from Israel's border) instances because the shootings occur, are verified as soldiers shooting kids dead, instance by instance, and then analysed. In intense bombings, this kind of detail, as instanced in the figure, cannot be ascertained and is therefore propaganda.Nishidani (talk) 17:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your common sense, however wouldn't omitting "intentionally" be a misrepresentation of the source ? The claim is not that IDF killed the children intentionally but that Monica Awad said so. If she indeed said so I would expect it to appear on the UNICEF site. So far it was only on tweeter, facebook and many pro-Palestinian sites that I do not know reliability of. Maybe it would be correct to add "Pro-Palestinian sites reported that ..." WarKosign (talk) 18:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Nishidani, really? New York Times pro-Israel? lol! You must be kidding. Haaretz is an Israeli newspaper... not very popular in Israel, precisely because it's considered pro-Palestinian. What matters is not if a newspaper is generally 'anti' or 'pro' something, but if it's reliable and serious when giving information. I just wanted to clarify that. Of course the paragraph needs to be changed, because it states that Israel "kills children deliberately" which – besides of being ridiculous and false – is not supported even by those POV sources. Furthermore, there's evidence to support the contrary: Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian children (I know, even so civilians die in every war, it sucks). For example, watch this video. Let me put this in clear words: apparently IAF had its target in reach. It was an armed terrorist whose goal was to attack Israelis. Right before the strike, this coward entered a yard full of children. There was a missile heading towards the terrorist. But because of his proximity to the kids, the Israelis immediately aborted the strike. This is killing children intentionally, right?

Although it springs to mind a people who does have a long history of killing children deliberately, bombing schools and hospitals, cutting babies throats and the Maalot massacre amongst MANY others while inciting child martyrdom, using children as front line troops (and those baby-killers are considered "heroes" by their own kind)... I better stop here.--Wlglunight93 (talk) 18:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Human shields!! Baby-killers!! You, as opposed to WarKosign, don't seem to understand the distinction I made. In any case, it is pointless talking to someone who edits wikipedia with the POV that a whole population ('a people who does (read 'do') have a long history of killing people deliberately') is characterized by a zest for killing babies. My remark spoke of a practice common in IDF operations (5-7% of all armies are stocked by natural born killers, and this is known. It's just some armies, not the IDF apparently, take legal precautions against them abusing their desire to kill): most Israelis are either appalled by, or flip the page as just too uncomfortable, over reportage like this, which is a weekly event, and has been so since the Ist intifada.Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

(after e/c) If we can't find evidence Awad actually said what the Palestinian sites allegedly attribute to her (comments above have called into question whether or not there even are sites attributing what our article does to Awad), perhaps we should just reduce the wording to only that bit which is supported by the citations we are sure of the reliability of (Ynet and Haaretz). Otherwise, we have to add a qualifier like WarKosign suggests... and then we have something that boils down to "According to a few pro-Palestinian sources, one spokesperson for one organization said Israeli had deliberately done X", which is pretty wp:undue, IMO.
The relevant portion of the Haaretz article is: "At least 296 children have been killed in the Gaza Strip since the operation began until 11 A.M. on Saturday, about 30% of the operation's fatalities, AFP cites UNICEF as stating. Of these, 187 are boys and 109 are girls, with at least 203 under the age of 12, Unicef says. (Haaretz) According to the Palestinian health ministry, the death toll in the Israeli operation currently stands at 1,624, including 315 children " Hence we could say:
UNICEF reported that between 8 July and 2 August, at least 296 Palestinian children died due to Israeli action, and that 30% of civilian casualties were children; the Health Ministry reported that 315 children died due to Israeli action.
At that point, we could just move/merge the info to the section on casualties. -sche (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wlglunight93:, Nishidani thinks anything or anyone that isn't explicitly pro-Palestinian is pro-Israel. Haaretz is infact, a leftist Israeli newspaper that regularly criticizes Israeli policy, although not in the same way as an explicitly pro-Palestinian site like Electronic Intifada does (you probably understand what I mean) . Ynet is left-leaning, and is generally pretty well balanced. JPost is center-right, and unlike Haaretz which focuses on domestic policy, etc, JPost focuses more on foreign policy. Even JPost is starting to become more to the center (originally, JPost was pretty leftist). They've started to phase out using words like terrorists and started using words like militants. Knightmare72589 (talk) 18:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I grew up when the word 'left' and 'right' had a meaning, but for three decades they've lost that distinction. Papers are either blind or not, nationalist or not. I find quite a few 'conservative' sources more 'leftist' than the so called left. So let's drop the simplified stereotypes.Nishidani (talk) 19:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

~300 children sounds reasonable (as in matches the data, not that it's reasonable to kill intentionally), considering that 33% of Gaza population is children under 15. It actually matches the IDF claim that about half of the casualties are militants. WarKosign (talk) 19:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I had flagged this problem about a month ago, saying that I could not find the original interview by Monica Awad to Al Jazeera saying that Israel had deliberately killed 250+ children. All I could find was that is that overall 250+ children had died. Someone added ElBalad as source and removed my dubious or better source needed tag. As far as I can see, El Balad is just repeating Middle East Monitor. Someone then added Ynet etc. without checking what it said. Kingsindian (talk) 19:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've trimmed the paragraph to only the part that is supported by the citations. Should it stay where it is (in the "Alleged violations" section) or be moved to the "Casualties" section? -sche (talk) 19:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Does any of the sources say anything about crimes or IHL violations ? If not, this is not an alleged violation, so this information doesn't belong there. As for casualties - this is certainly casualties data, but it has been superseded by higher numbers later on. WarKosign (talk) 20:27, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

TL;DL. Comment: Haaretz is known for propagating Israel-bashing plot-lines (occasionally, with terrible/no fact checking: Gideon Levy is commonly mentioned). It is nick-named al-Balad, which is an Arabic translation of the Hebrew name. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 21:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Important question: does the article say how many children died while digging the tunnels? "At least 160". Also, how do we treat this type of source? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 21:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Someone put a line about that into the article at one point, but it was removed after discussion concluded that it was highly irrelevant and wp:undue. It is already present in both of the places it might actually belong, namely the two articles on the tunnels themselves (Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels and Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip); it does not belong in this article, which is about a specific conflict. -sche (talk) 01:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@-sche:, Did the Israelis not say they targeted tunnel destruction in this operation? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

"On 17 July, the operation was expanded to a ground invasion with the stated aim of destroying Gaza's tunnel system". Existence of the tunnels and their destruction is highly relevant to this article. How exactly they came to be is not. In the IHL violations sections only the violations that occured during the conflict are listed. If you can show that the children were digging the tunnels during the conflict, then it's relevant. Otherwise it belongs in an article discussing the tunnels or in an article discussing Hamas's abuse of the Palestinian people. WarKosign (talk) 09:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Wait. So Israel destroying tunnels and other weapons is 'first-paragraph important', but how the Palestinians were fabricating them can't be mentioned?? Not even in the Background section?? (small correction: some say "abuse" and "virgin sacrifice", others say "resistance" and "liberate Palestine from the Zionist entity" -- I'm not one to impose one view over another on Misplaced Pages. Both views have citations.) On topic -- I'm sure some people also want to know details about Iron Dome. e.g. how fucking expensive those rockets are... well, I hear costs went down a bit lately. Anyways --- this information IS relevant. At least the basic core information that any Wiki-reader would be interested in without reading a whole other article. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

People may want to know more about the Iron Dome or the attack tunnels, and this is exactly why these articles exist and this article links to them. Both provide estimates for the cost and the number of children sacrificed to create them. WarKosign (talk) 10:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Pointing to how long Mashal has lived in exile

@TheTimesAreAChanging:, can you tell me where you see Yahoo making the point that Mashal has lived 37 years in exile? Secondly, you broke the 1RR, so think about discussing first instead of rushing to revert. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:57, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

1RR means you are given one revert, not that no reverts can ever occur. Yahoo mentions that he lives in exile, here is a source for how long.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

That said, the number cited in that 2014 article may be wrong. I believe Meshaal has lived in exile since 1967, which is supported by this source.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:14, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

You made reverts earlier. But it's good you have started to discuss the issue.

So I was right, and not a "liar" as you unacceptably called me because I disagreed with you, that the article doesn't make that point. Not either the original article in Yahoo that they refer to (Hamas leader: Don't compare us to ISIL). Read about WP:SYNTHESIS. That he has lived in exile has no connection to the citations you added. --IRISZOOM (talk) 02:25, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

"Meshaal, who has lived in exile for 37 years, has denied being involved in the 'details'" sounds very much like synthesis. It sounds as if his living in exile is related to him not being involved in the details, while neither his quote nor the article make this claim. There are sources for the denial, there are sources for exile but no sources for them being related. Why not "Meshaal, who's favorite pizza topping is ZZZZ, has denied ..." ?WarKosign (talk) 08:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

In the same spirit, "On 20 August, a Hamas official in exile in Turkey, Saleh al-Arouri, claimed responsibility for the kidnapping and the murder" - an exile is not mentioned at all in the sources. Even if there are sources for the exile, do they claim any relevance to him claiming Hamas's responsibility for the murder ? WarKosign (talk) 09:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Yahoo explicitly makes the point that he has headed Hamas' political wing from exile. If IRISZOOM was really concerned merely about the details of his exile, not whether it was attested to by the source, he would have amended the text to better reflect what the source does in fact say rather than deleting it completely. The obvious goal is to discredit Saleh al-Arouri based on Meshaal's propaganda, even though Meshaal also claims not to know anything about any Hamas terrorist attacks, ever. Finally, IRISZOOM believes all edits are reverts and thus one can only make one edit a day, a bizarre view very similar to that espoused by GGranddad, providing more evidence he may be a sockpuppet.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 11:17, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't change the goalpost. We were talking about if the article mentions how long Mashal has lived in exile. That he has lead the political movement in exile since 2004 is true, and is well-known by him being their highest leader, and doesn't change the meaning of the sentence, and the latter is also true about Saleh al-Arouri.

No, you reverted JDiala and then me. So it was not normal edits. --IRISZOOM (talk) 11:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm not going to feed the troll by engaging with you any further.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Iriszoom. I'd ask a third party. I always get IR wrong, and when in doubt ask a competent admin. If you are dead certain, then it should go to AE, since this page is harassed by poor editing which it can ill-afford.Nishidani (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean asking about the 1RR? --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Nishidani added sources for Saleh al-Arouri's exile. The questions remains - is the exile of either of Hamas's leaders important enough to mention? Is putting it in the same sentence with the claim they are making implies connection between the exile and the claim? WarKosign (talk) 13:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It is important, since the range of contacts available to people in exile with their home networks (esp. in the intercepted world of communications) is restricted, as are their contacts with each other. And this, in an extremely factionalized world, means jumping to generic cause and effect reverse reasoning (Hamas member, ergo Hamas, ergo Hamas Arouri, ergo Meshaal) Kingsindian mentioned on my page an important transcript in Arabic discussing this, which we need a faithful translation on, as it might throw some light on the issue. The exile and the claim are mentioned together in sources, and there is no reason to separate them.Nishidani (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Killings in the West Bank

@-sche: I noticed that you moved the killings in the West Bank to the "Reactions" article. I do not think this is correct. The affair started in the West Bank with the kidnapping/murder of three teenagers etc. which is mentioned in detail in this article. And of course, West Bank is part of Palestine, just as Gaza is, with about the quarter of the people in Gaza having family in the West Bank. All throughout the conflict and even before there have been demonstrations there and the killings there are certainly notable and directly related. It should be present in this article, instead of simply as reactions like pro-Palestine or pro-Israel protests around the world. This is qualitatively and quantitatively different. Kingsindian (talk) 03:52, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The details of the West Bank killings are still present in this article, in #Reactions. The paragraph in the #Casualties section which had repeated the details was both redundant and IMO not well-placed, in that West Bank casualties seem (to me) to by definition not be "Israel-Gaza conflict casualties". (I still left an informative mention of them in the Casualties section with a link to the Reactions section.) How do RSes, and how does Israel, treat the killings — as part of the military conflict, or as part of regular containment of protests? Not all killings, even killings by parties which are involved in the conflict, are part of the conflict — hence the discussion above about whether or not to mention that Hamas shot people who were fighting over food handouts.
If the information on the West Bank killings is deemed necessary to include in the Casualties section, I think it should be removed from the Reactions section. It can't be both a part of the conflict and a reaction to the conflict, can it? -sche (talk) 05:57, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The food handouts issue is totally separate. The issue there was that it was a domestic matter involving police, and not an international matter involving military. As to RS about West Bank/Gaza, here are two, including an official PLO response one and two. Probably I can find more if I search. Kingsindian (talk) 06:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

You are correct that it should not belong in "Reactions". I had initially put it in a separate section by itself and someone moved it to "Reactions" and somehow I never followed it up. Kingsindian (talk) 06:15, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The infobox says that belligerents of the conflict are Israel and Gaza Strip. Even if we include the west bank as a belligerent for this argument, controlling violent demonstrations is policing and not a military action. By Kingsindian's logic, casualties of a policing action are not casualties of the conflict. WarKosign (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I already said why that logic does not apply. This is not an internal police matter. West Bank is not Israel. Kingsindian (talk) 06:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is a report by Human Rights Watch on the matter. Kingsindian (talk) 06:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

TL;DR. Comment: The West Bank is disputed territory. Some consider it "part of Palestine", some consider it "part of Israel", some consider it a place where Jews and Arabs can come together to play Yahtzee (Winner gets to shout "Yahtzee!"). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 07:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Those who consider the west bank a part of Israel aren't likely to condemn killing of Palestinian protesters, so for the issue of considering whether the killing of protesters is a policing action or a part of the conflict we must assume the west bank is not a part of Israel. WarKosign (talk) 08:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the many killings on the West Bank should be in a reactions section. The West Bank protests were against the war, and the same military fighting in Gaza, shot up the demonstrators. It is an Israeli POV that this is 'policing'. Most modern police do not put down demonstrations by shooting protestors reguarly, and the West Bank is policed by units forming part of a military institution. It is of course not an 'assumption' that the West Bank is part of Israel. It is not so under Israeli law, which applies, at its convenience, Jordanian law or Ottoman law there, and hasn't even formally annexed East Jerusalem. These are elementary facts, long exhaustively discussed here over a decade and should not be recycled as subjective opinions.Nishidani (talk) 15:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a terrible idea to use big words like 'I think', 'many' and 'regularly'. Less Osama Hamdan based mythology, more encyclopedic citation based content. Yes. Indeed. As for how to describe the results of clashes in the Israeli-Miltary administered parts of the West Bank (Area C?), Misplaced Pages should see what mainstream sources say rather than promote a wiki-user's favorite. “With blood and fire, we will redeem Palestine,”-peace-activists have died. Not in this example. But here, Molotov cocktail throwing de-facto-pro-peace militants supreme resulted in two casualties (said spokespersons for the shadow organization called "Palestinian medical officials" -- lazy reporters couldn't get a name or at least a job title?). I'd appreciate a source for the above "Israeli POV" statement. There's a lot of blue cheese dressing in a statement made on behalf of an entire democratic country (which had both Effi Eitam and Azmi Bishara as MKs if you can believe it). Find a source to make it Cheddar. Or better yet, avoid the cheese. Less calories. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Where do you think this event belongs: in reactions, in timeline or not in the article at all ? It happened in East Jerusalem which is arguably a part of the west bank, and apparently violent clashes between Israeli and Palestinians in the west bank during the conflict are a part of the conflict. WarKosign (talk) 20:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

"Most international institutions consider the blockade to be a form of collective punishment and unlawful"

There is a very long list of references, I did not see any of them being some form of research comparing statements by the different international institutions. There are definitely "many" such institutions, but to wrote "most" you need a source that claims that.

BTW, is there a way to have the background diff-able ? At the moment it is very hard to tell what is being changed because of the <onlyinclude> tag. WarKosign (talk) 11:16, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

International institutions, within the context of this discussion, would imply organizations such as the UN, NGOs, the ICRC, the ICC, and human rights organizations. The opinion of these institutions is almost unanimous: the blockade is illegal under international law. Regardless, if you have an issue with the word "most" it can be changed to "many". JDiala (talk) 13:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

That's easily fixed but to do so only makes the ref list uglier. What you are questioning is 'most'. 50 international organizations have condemned the situation in Gaza. Change to read (adding the extra references:

Over the years, there is an "overwhelming consensus" shared by 50 organizations, among them some of the most respected institutions internationally, such as International Committee of the Red Cross Amnesty International, CARE International, several UN agencies, a UN fact-finding mission, many experts in international law and human rights organizations consider the blockade a form of collective punishment or illegal, and the European Quartet (UN, European Union, Russia and the United States) has repeatedly called for an immediate end to the blockade. Nishidani (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

You are listing some very respectable institutions. Saying that they are "most" respective is a subjective statement. While I personally believe the statement is true, it lacks a source. "many" would be more technically correct and is supported by the fact there are many sources. I wonder how many of the same institutions consider rocket fire on civilian population illegal as well. WarKosign (talk) 14:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

'most' is in one of the added sources.Nishidani (talk) 21:30, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Judging by where you're from and your edit history, I am inclined to wonder whether or not the Israeli government is paying you to spout Israeli propaganda. I'm going to use your reasoning, just apply it the other way around. Find one international institution that doesn't believe that the blockade is illegal. And by blockade, I'm referring to the whole blockade, not just the naval blockade, so you cannot use the Palmer report.

Misplaced Pages represents the mainstream views. Not partisan, pro-Israel apologetics. The mainstream legal, academic and scholarly consensus of the international community is that the blockade of the Gaza strip is illegal under international law. Therefore, we will take care to explicitly mention that fact. JDiala (talk) 14:42, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I wish the government did pay somebody to correct the obvious pro-Palestinian bias in many pages. Comparing the number of Arabs with the number of Jews in the world, it's a miracle the article for Israel isn't called Zionist Entity. But enough soapboxing. WarKosign (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

A silly comment. Arabs, certainly Palestinians, have close to zero presence in wikipedia's I/P articles, as opposed to Israelis. The suspicion is of course that the few non-Israeli/non-Arabs who do pitch in have problems with anti-semitism. The premise there is, that careful reading of Israeli newspapers and scholarship, and its use as RS is anti-semitic. The conflict here is quite simply an infra-Israeli/Jewish dispute, and that goyim find the Israeli/Jewish critical literature more comprehensible, more 'empirical' than the nationalist literature, which is all about solidarity and "us", from which, by definition, they are excluded.Nishidani (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: With all due respect, the entire world, bar the United States and Israel, have what you perceive to be, a pro-Palestinian bias. This is simply the reality of the situation. The facts that this article lays out may not conform to your preconceived ideological belief that Israel's actions are perfectly good and just, and that its defending itself against the evil Arabs. Again, let me reiterate my point: Misplaced Pages represents the mainstream views. And the mainstream view among practically all international institutions is that the blockade is illegal.

You have been doing this on numerous sections. You repeatedly complain about various things which you perceive to be "anti-Israel". If you have a particular viewpoint, you, by all means, have the right to bring it up. However, partisan, WP:SPA individuals who care more about having the article reflect their own person ideological views rather than attempting to abide by certain encyclopedic standards are not appreciated. JDiala (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@JDiala and Nishidani: Just out of curiosity, have a peek at the Google-translated Arabic and Hebrew versions of the article. I am making an assumption that the Hebrew version is dominated by editors with an Israeli bias while the Arabic version is dominated by Palestinian bias. Count the pictures depicting the damage to the other side. One side chose to have exactly zero pictures showing the damage to the other. The other has put two pictures at the lead, just like in this version of the article, and more through the article - perhaps less than here. Even with the lacking translation you can observe which subjects are discussed and which are avoided in each version. WarKosign (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign: This has been discussed here. The "most international institutions" is a paraphrase of Richard Falk first reference "overwhelming consensus". One can directly use Falk's phrase if needed. Kingsindian (talk) 15:17, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

50 International institutions does justify 'most', which is moderate actually because only Israel (as opposed to many Israeli observers and scholars) as an official government stance, naturally denies that international law is being violated there. Falk's phrasing is actually better, so I have adjusted my suggested version.Nishidani (talk) 15:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

This discussion seems finished. I'll remove the failed verification claim. JDiala (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wlglunight93: This section is the justification for the edit that you reverted. If you have some argument, here would be a good place to make it WarKosign (talk) 12:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

1. 'UN agencies join in shared call for end to Israeli blockade of Gaza,' 14 June 2012
2. 'Statement: Legal experts and human rights defenders demand international community end Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza,' Mondoweiss July 28, 2014
3. Imogen Foulkes,'ICRC says Israel's Gaza blockade breaks law,' BBC News 14 June 2010.

Massive destruction in Beit Hanoun

Beit Hanoun is a small city north in Gaza with some 32 000 inhabitants. About 70% of homes were uninhabitable after the war. I think that the article should have more about this, and some pictures.--85.166.157.97 (talk) 16:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds fair. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 19:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Except for the fact that that the article provided by this IP address user only mentions Beit Hanoun briefly and quotes its mayor as the person making the totally unverifiable claim. Without providing any evidence and since logically, his claim would mean that (if the average house hold had 10 people living there) 2,000 homes were destroyed or suffered such levels of destruction that they are uninhabitable. I think the mayor's comments need a neutral source before being taken seriously.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 19:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The statement about 70% etc. is already present in the "Impact" section. Kingsindian (talk) 20:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Hamas Controlled?

The lead sentence of the article says "On 8 July 2014, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) launched Operation Protective Edge...in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip". What exactly does "Hamas controlled" mean? That's a vague statement. Is it governance? Hamas governs the Gaza strip; however, it hardly controls it. Israel has absolute control over the Gazans' freedom of movement (ie border crossings), the crossing of goods, the airspace, the population registry, the tax system, the coastline, overwhelming power over the territory’s economy and its access to trade and, of course, is currently besieging the region. It is seriously disingenuous to state that Gaza is Hamas controlled. At best, it must be acknowledged that the situation is more complex than a single entity "controlling" the entire region; Hamas and Israel control it in different ways. After all, Israel is still considered the occupying power of Gaza by most international institutions and human rights organizations. JDiala (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because Israel controls aspects of Gaza such as airspace, borders (Israel doesn't control the Egypt/Gaza border), etc doesn't mean Hamas doesn't control Gaza. During the Afghanistan War, the US effectively had control over Afghanistan in the same respect as Israel does to Gaza, but there were parts that were considered Taliban controlled which is in the same respect as Hamas with Gaza. Knightmare72589 (talk) 00:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I am fine with "Hamas-governed", if that is more precise. Kingsindian (talk) 03:18, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I thing governed is fine. WarKosign (talk) 03:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Make that 4. I agree, also because it is customary in sources. Münevver Cebeci, Issues in EU and US Foreign Policy, Lexington Books, ‎2011 p.147; (b) Sara Roy,Hamas and Civil Society in Gaza: Engaging the Islamist Social Sector,‎ Princeton University Press (2011) 2013 passim, but also p.239 etc.Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem with 'governed' is that just recently there were some hard to follow unity chess-games between Hamas and Fatah. To avoid this confusion, which I'm sure even Palestinian "legislators" and "spokespersons" like Osama Hamdan or the shadowy "Palestinian medical officials" (hurray to shabby journalism for never getting a name or a job title even) can't follow, it IS best (and most certainly not "seriously disingenuous" -- what?!) to go with 'Hamas-controlled'. They control the strip itself, while Israel and Egypt apply a US-Quartet sanctioned blockade. That is a very basic and neutral summary of what reliable sources say. All the hubbub about what's exactly controlled by who (e.g. Hamas controls the media and local tax mechanism (Fatah controls the global one, which includes import taxes) and tunnel making and the public executions, etc.) belongs in a whiny section about the economics and how the "illegal" blockade prevents it from growing (that and the spending on 3km tunnels and air-drones (ffs!) to "resist" and "defend" and take back Palestine as imagined by Hamas -- rejecting past agreements and repeatedly attacking a country with a capable army while very few of your allies are willing to help out doesn't help either). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 06:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

All that is pointless, and not the way wiki editors work. We use sources, preferably academic, reliably published ones.Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There is little argument that Hamas is the elected government in the Gaza strip. As you can see there is argument regarding the degree of control it has. The purpose of this sentence in the lead is to say that the conflict is not between Israel and the Gazan people but between Israel and the authority that claims responsibility for what happens in Gaza (a.k.a. government), and for that "Hamas governed" is precise enough. It is indeed questionable how much control Hamas actually has. In some aspects it has less control than a typical government, being cut-off by the blockade and depending on Israel for infrastructures such as water and power supply; and in some aspects much more control than a typical government, being opaque in almost every regard and performing massive executions of opponents and protesters. I do not believe that every homeowner willingly agreed to store ammunition in their house, knowing that it makes the house a legitimate military target and puts the family at risk - but Hamas did it anyway. WarKosign (talk) 08:37, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Commendable judgement. I would beg to differ only with the statement:'massive executions of opponents and protesters'. However deplorable that kind of institutionalized thuggery, 'massive' is inappropriate. Clinically examining the period without partis pris, Hamas executed 25 Gazans, Israel has shot dead in what it calls 'riot control' a similar number (32 since June 13, but if you start from July 7, the number is approximately in the mid-twenties) of Palestinians it governs under military law in the occupied territories. Those wounded by IDF gunfire in the West Bank during the Gaza war number 1,397 which means the 'riot control' methods are similar to those that sparked the Al-Aqsa Intifada. And it too is 'opaque' in every regard to the circumstances of each of those deaths. A neutral bystander (not perhaps myself) would think the analogy precise, and perhaps draw similar conclusions.Nishidani (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

There were more than 25 executed, at least 88 by my count during this conflict, and it is not the first time for Hamas. Arguably shooting and even killing violent protesters is more reasonable than executing hand-cuffed and hooded prisoners in cold blood. WarKosign (talk) 13:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Arguably, but of course none of the people Hamas 'liquidated' were children, whereas many children on the West Bank are http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/palestinian-shot-dead-during-west-bank-raid-201481185550149212.html 'summarily shot dead',] and in democracies civic protests, even if tough, are not put down by shooting people. But we can drop this.Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@WarKosign, it is a misconception that Hamas is the "elected government of Gaza". They were not elected to govern Gaza. They were elected to the Palestinian Legislative Council and won the most seats. They ultimately kicked out the rest of the Palestinian Legislative Council, so they are hardly the "legitimate" government in Gaza. Knightmare72589 (talk) 16:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It is pointless arguing against sources, which establish usage. If you want to know what really happened, they didn't 'kick out' the PLO. The PLO was being paid to stage a coup, and a counter-coup by Hamas preempted it (See Sara Roy's book above p.43)

Discussion seems to be meandering from the original course. If nobody objects to "Hamas-governed", I will change it. (Or anyone else can). It says the same thing without any issue of vagueness. Kingsindian (talk) 16:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@Kingsindian:, Read it again. "Governed" is wrong on a number of levels. Hamas-controlled is not only correct, but used by a source I linked to earlier on this talk page when discussing the lead. I guess, editors might like to compile a list of sources to see what is more a common naming convention these days. But, really, it is a matter of accuracy and Knightmare72589 said it well. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I can cite several sources which describe Israel as the occupying power with a large degree of control. This, for example, by B'tselem, a reputable Israeli human rights organizations. International organizations explictly describe it as an occupier. The large degree of control Israel has over the Gaza strip is indisputable. Two of your sources were YouTube videos, and the other one was an editorial, and editorials from a partisan Israeli news website (Jpost) are generally considered less reliable than conclusions made by reputable organizations and experts in the field. Also, the editorial you cited didn't even mention the words "control" or "govern. It's absurd. Israel is considered the occupying power of the Gaza strip. It controls it. Quoting Dov Weissglass, an Israeli lawyer heavily involved in the supposed "peace process": "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger". If that's not "control", then what is it? JDiala (talk) 19:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

One of my fav. NGO extra-extraordinaire supreme. Not the most mainstream source, but a source non-the less. Jpost, btw, is certainly a proper source. I'd like less blue cheese dressing and more cheddar here. Now that one NGO is used to say something vague about what Israel supposedly does to the Gaza strip with it's blockade -- which means nothing regarding who's in control inside Gaza -- I'd like to see more sources. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is "inside" Gaza a prerequisite? That's arbitrary. During the siege of Leningrad, the Nazis were hardly physically within the city, but they unequivocally controlled it. No, control of a particular region doesn't necessitate physical presence "inside" that region. If you want more sources, there are seven citations concerned with the nature of Israeli control in the second sentence of the "background" section. I'm not saying JPost is inherently unreliable. I'm just saying that it is less reliable than the opinions of reliable, mainstream organizations and expert/scholarly opinion. See WP:NEWSORG and WP:SCHOLARSHIP JDiala (talk) 20:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree that "Hamas-governed" is a good descriptor, and simpler and more neutral than "Hamas-controlled". Regarding the first criticism of "Hamas-governed", viz. that Hamas took over the government illegitimately: setting aside consideration of whether that claim is POV or not, it doesn't change the fact that Hamas does govern the Strip. Regarding the second criticism, viz. that Palestine is governed by a unity government: that also doesn't change the fact that Hamas governs the Strip. North Dakota's governorship and the majority of seats in both houses of its legislature are held by Republicans, so it is accurate to say North Dakota is "Republican-governed", even though the United States is governed by a mix of Democrats (in the White House and Senate, and some other state governments) and Republicans (in the House and some other state governments). -sche (talk) 20:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The unity issue is so complex I wonder if Palestinians follow. For example, who is the Prime Minister? Who pays salaries? Hamas insisted on keeping control over this while Fatah fought back, trying to retake 'control' over the strip. More mainstream sources -- not silly ones -- tend to use control words rather than municipal ones. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 20:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

• A member of Hamas, which dominates Gaza. (BBC)
• Hamas, the Palestinian militant organization that controls Gaza. (CNN)

I can also use your same logic. Several sources refer to it as governs; examples being: (Al-Bisan Park is run by Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that governs Gaza); (What are the goals for Hamas, the organization that governs Gaza and is considered a terrorist organization by many Western powers?); (...the political demands of Hamas, the militant organization that governs Gaza and that Israel has been targeting since the latest hostilities broke out two weeks ago.)

Considering the fact that the two terms, "govern" and "control" are more or less interchangeable within the media, it is up to us to solve this dilemma. Which word is more precise? Which word is less vague? Which word describes the situation better? Which word is more accurate as per WP:WTW? JDiala (talk) 23:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Who says there has to be a Prime Minister in a government? Let them play the politics and manage their government however they like. One problem I have with "Hamas-governed" designation is that the word "governed" has largely positive connotation, while "controlled" is neutral. There are other neutral synonyms: administrated, managed, regulated, supervised. WarKosign (talk) 20:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Fatah has essentially no control in Gaza and most of sources I have seen refer to Gaza as Hamas controlled.--Tritomex (talk) 00:41, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

If there wasn't this ridiculous "unity" occurrence, "governed" would have similar encyclopedic value. But, a problem starts when the current PM is from Fatah (best I am aware) as well as other people who "govern" the strip -- but Hamas still does what they want. They "run the show", launch military campaigns, etc. It is best to avoid this complexity in the lead. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 00:58, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Gaza is "governed" by a united Fatah-Hamas government, but "controlled" by Hamas, so the terms are not interchangeable. WarKosign (talk) 05:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Hamas does not "control" Islamic Jihad and other groups in the Strip. That is of course the rhetoric post April, but since 2007 it does govern the Strip, as it governed elsewhere after the 2006 elections (Jacob Lassner, Selwyn Ilan Troen, Jews and Muslims in the Arab World: Haunted by Pasts Real, Rowman and Littlefield 2007 p.x:'Hamas,the Islamist movement that presently governs the Palestinian Authority'.)

POV-terrorist obsessives wish it otherwise but we are required to be neutral. 'Control' insinuates that its governance is coercive,(Israel controls (militarily)its border, Hamas 'controls' its territory etc.) and the newspapers that adopt this language do so for a purpose. It is a rhetorical voice employed to accentuate the meme that Hamas are nothing but terrorists, and not a governing body, which however a great number of serious sources state, noting that it runs (a) the civil administration (b)the school system (c) the public health system (d) the judiciary and (e) basic utilities. Together with Münevver Cebeci's, and Sara Roy's study (the latter being one of the foremost academic authorities on Gaza) add

• Marc A. Walther, HAMAS Between Violence and Pragmatism, 2010 pp.17,46,125
• Bernard Reich, A Brief History of Israel, ‎Infobase,(2005) (2nd.ed.)2008 p.285
• Tariq Mukhimer, Hamas Rule in Gaza: Human Rights under Constraint, ‎Palgrave 2012 p.7
• Nathan J. Brown, Amr Hamzawy, Between Religion and Politics, 2010 p.161 ('Hamas has had to shift from a movement that is largely underground to one that governs' esp.also pp.171ff.)

These are specific studies by scholars, who are required as analysts to avoid the incendiary orwellianism of skewing language to get over a POV.Nishidani (talk) 16:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I simply ignore most of what MarciulionisHOF says. The quality of arguments presented do not deserve such replies as Nishidani gave. Too much soapboxing for a simple phrase change, which is utterly reasonable. I will not make any more comments. Kingsindian (talk) 17:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC) Too harsh a comment based on frustration. I will only say that the phrase change is totally reasonable, the unity govt. notwithstanding. Nobody doubts that Hamas governs the Gaza strip. The analogy with the Republican/Democrat is good enough. Kingsindian (talk) 18:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

If it wasn't clear, I share your policy and ignore the fellow. My notes were addressed to WarKosign. No sensible objections to 'governed' have been presented. Let's move on.Nishidani (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Nishidani, Kingsindian, JDiala, Knightmare72589, WarKosign, -sche, Tritomex - There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. - MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Are we really going to add how many Israeli soldiers Hamas has claimed to kill again?

First of all, it's an absolutely farcical claim. Secondly, the sources are hardly reputable. Knightmare72589 (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

There is an RfC that so far seems to lean towards not including it. WarKosign (talk) 04:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is "Gaza Strip" listed as the belligerent in the infobox?

The "Gaza Strip" is where the war took place, but why list it as a combatant? Rockets were not fired by the "Gaza Strip"; the "Gaza Strip" did not build tunnels to infiltrate Israel. Only Hamas and the other militant groups should be listed as the belligerents. See for example War in Afghanistan Spud770 (talk) 15:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Same can said about Israel being listed as a belligerent: Israel did not decide to begin an operation, Israel's government did. Israel did not fire, IDF soldiers did. By definition, "belligerent is an individual, group, country, or other entity that acts in a hostile manner, such as engaging in combat". Gaza strip is neither a group nor a country but it is some kind of entity. Alternatives aren't very good either:

• List Hamas and the rest of the militant groups - the list would be long, and may miss some militants
• PNA - the west bank arguably did not participate in the conflict, so not all of PNA was involved.

Can you offer another belligerent? WarKosign (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Time to start consensual rewriting to get the flab of POV battles out of the prose.

A day after the Israeli teens were buried, a Palestinian teenager was kidnapped and murdered. Three suspects confessed to the murder and admitted that it was done in revenge for the killing of the three Israeli teenagers. The killing sparked riots among Israel's Arab population throughout the country. The Israeli government condemned the murder. Three main suspects were brought to trial. The main suspect, Yoseph Ben David said in the entrance hall, "I am the messiah."

This is all in the linked articles, and like much of the rest of the text must be précised. Mot of the flab is either repetitive, undue or trying to attenuate something for some POV. It should read something like.

After their burial, anti-Arab riots broke out, and a Palestinian teenager was killed in revenge. His killing sparked Arab rioting. Israeli police rounded up three suspects and charged them with his murder.

Similar excisions, while remaining true to the essential points, should be done throughout. This section may be exploited to suggest similar remedies for sections and paragraphs of this ghastly article.Nishidani (talk) 21:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You made some factual modifications while de-flabbing:

• What anti-Arab riots ? Where did they come from ?
• Who killed the teenagers ? Form your summary one can understand that Israeli government ordered killing the teenager in revenge.
• The murder was condemned and the suspected murderers were brought to justice. In your summary whoever murdered in revenge, possibly by an order, seems to live happily ever after.

The bit with the main suspect claiming to be the messiah can be dropped. Either he is insane or prepares to plead insanity, in either case it's of low relevance. WarKosign (talk) 21:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

• • I made no factual modifications. The text must give the bare bones of what the links amply explain. The essential facts are there, not the rhetoric.
  • For anti-Arab riots see Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu KhdeirNishidani (talk) 21:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • The paragraph above that mentions who killed the three, and I am not making a précis of that, but the section quoted. We don't write for paranoids. It is obvious from 'suspects' and charged with his murder that Israel arrested the alleged culprits.
  • The suspects are charged. They have not been (yet) 'brought to justice'. 'Condemnations' are stuffing.

All of that is in the linked articles. This is background, not a repetition of the linked articles we synthesize, and obsessing about clearing Hamas or Israel's name by mentioning condemnations is just POV flab.Nishidani (talk) 21:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The background section, like everything else, has a lot of flab. Unfortunately, it is hard to get the flab out without someone or the other thinking that you have left out some important detail which should be given its due. I made this same point here, which is why condensation is quite hard. To be honest, I have not tried a lot, but it needs to be done. Kingsindian (talk) 22:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I've given the above example as a test. I don't think any important detail is overlooked. If one or two are, editors will note it, and adjustments made. But really, once a text is relatively stable, crafting a précis is far less difficult that the kind of my-tripe-to-counter-your tripe prose composition that makes most of these articles's use by date short. Editors committed to working here should understand that much of their patriotic dedication goes down the tube in time, unless it is firmly grounded in qualitative editing standards, sound sourcing principles and strict neutrality.Nishidani (talk) 22:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. The messiah part can be removed. I don't think there is much chance of misreading the passage to say that the Israeli govt. killed the teenager in revenge. The following sentence makes clear that three suspects have been charged. Since nobody has yet been convicted, the passive voice "Palestinian teenager was killed" is appropriate. "Condemnation" is not important to include here. Anyone wanting to see details can consult the other article. Kingsindian (talk) 23:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I still don't see any anti-Arab riots. I do see lots of rioting by the Arabs. Can you please give a quote that I'm missing ?

After the burial of the 3 israeli youths, anti-Arab riots broke out in Jerusalem.

Mohammad Khdeir's death in turn sparked Arab rioting.

The passage I précised lack this elementary balancing, leaving out the fact that Israeli groups rioted after the funeral. I added it, because one shouldn't drop information uncomfortable to one POV while highlighting information uncomfortable to another. The balance thus achieved is NPOV.

I was relying on memory of the period which I thought would have survived the POV-censorship of editors since it was so well sourced, but such reliance on wiki's retention rate is a bad thing because it used to be mentioned on the 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers page, day 19, but has been removed. It is mentioned on the Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir('On the day of the funeral, Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu called for vengeance on his Twitter account. Hundreds of Israelis rampaged through Jerusalem yelling "Death to Arabs", endeavoured to assault passers-by, who had to be extricated by police') page (the Netanyahu call for venegance on Twitter, if I recall correctly, is a distortion, and if so needs to be adjusted however)Nishidani (talk) 11:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The source says there was an anti-Arab demonstration "with 2 attempts to attack nearby Arabs". Surely the attempts were unsuccessful, or it would say "attacks on nearby Arabs". This event falls short by far from being a full-blown riot. Do you have anything except your POV to justify writing "anti-Arab riots broke out" ? I understand that "After their burial, anti-Arab demonstrations broke out" does not have the same punch, but it is what the source says. WarKosign (talk) 12:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Brought to justice - you are correct, they are 'being brought to justice' but I don't know how to write it concisely enough so perhaps it can be added later once (if) they are in jail as "murdered by <name> who was later sentenced to X years in jail" WarKosign (talk) 10:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the argument above, I think the work must be limited on a section-by-section, paragraph-by-paragraph basis, more or less as we did in in the lead. I suggest to begin with the background. Peeking at the Hebrew version of the article, the background there is split into military and political, with military background being split into (following operation pillar of defence, kidnapping of teenagers are operation brother's keeper, targeted assassinations and increased rocket fire after June 27th) and political background is split to (raise of El-Sisi to power, Hamas's financial crisis). I am not saying that this division should necessarily be followed, but some sort of division of the background would help simplify it. WarKosign (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

1. "The scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip". B'Tselem. Retrieved 4 September 2014.

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