Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:39, 21 September 2014

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• A request for adminship is open for discussion.
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Wikipediocracy doxxing

Wikipediocracy doxxed a couple users, including myself (though who I am is no secret) and a minor. REDACTED NAMES PER ADMIN REQUEST. I'm not sure if they're Misplaced Pages editors, but if they are, their actions are wholly unacceptable. Is there any way to find out if these folks are Misplaced Pages editors? If so, I'd like to see action taken against them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe that any of them are current Misplaced Pages users. The Wikipediocracy is an external website not under the jurisdiction of the Misplaced Pages in any manner. More often than not though, as in this situation, their editorial 100% nails it, IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, given that you've insulted everyone who was editing that article and trying to include information about the issue as misogynists, I'm not terribly surprised you agree with them. But your ill behavior is not at issue here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry that misogynists feel insulted. Tarc (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

you shouldn't be. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, one other thing we have in common is that, unlike the other users involved in the editing of those pages, we both specifically warned @NorthBySouthBaranof: about his/her behavior. Not sure if it is related. Do you know who these people are, North? Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I would warn you about your behavior in attempting to smear living people on the encyclopedia, but that's already been done numerous times by administrators who have had to repeatedly revision-delete your scurrilous nonsense about Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Given your penchant for making unfounded accusations about them, I'm not surprised that you're making unfounded insinuations about me. The answer is no, by the way. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty serious allegation, or at least implication. You are understandably upset about what happened, but maybe step back and think about what you are saying, and reserve your anger for the four individuals at Wikipediocracy, one of whom is already indef blocked. Gamaliel (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know (or care) who the other three are, but if any of them are still active editors here, I'd support blocks for them. The fact that we cannot regulate what happens at other websites does not mean that we have to put up with the consequences of those happenings, here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm actually not upset, more... grimly amused? I mean, I've never been doxxed before. Its like a rite of passage! People really hate me! Rather than the casual hatred they reserved for me in the past. I suppose I am somewhat annoyed at them on the other user's behalf, because, well, I'm an adult and used to such people on the internet, but they're a potentially vulnerable minority minor who now has their picture posted for the world to see in conjunction with their user name and some other personal information which could potentially lead to identification in real life (as opposed to the Internet, though it becomes more and more real every day, I suppose). I apologize for the implication; I just noticed it off-handedly while browsing user talk pages of people who were involved, in case the folk in question were users who had been on the page. Some people list their real life names on their Misplaced Pages profiles, or link to where they work or whatever. I'm glad to hear you weren't involved, North; thanks for your input, and I'm sorry I came off as accusatory. I have noticed you have been more civil recently, and I appreciate that. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

On this whole bit, since I am one of the individuals who was supposedly 'doxxed' in this article. It's not all that surprising that people--instead of wishing to conflate or actually dissent with actual arguments, have to refer to finding all the personal information about it. It's a bit weird of an obsession, honestly. I am a real person, you can talk to me, I'm not some robot being inputted some commands by some 'higher up' person, so why wouldn't they fight with an actual idea, a post on my talk page, 'Why did you do X' or 'Y' or 'Z' on this page, and get my real thoughts on it. Instead, they have to use bully tactics, doxxing me and posting information about me. That said, it's obviously more safe for me to not comment about the validity of the information posted, for my safety of course. Tutelary (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• No action can be taken here. Misplaced Pages cannot regulate offwiki attacks, per WP:NPA#Off-wiki attacks. KonveyorBelt 22:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• We can certainly block them here if they aren't already blocked, but unless someone is going to propose a specific on-wiki action, we should close this thread. Gamaliel (talk) 23:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Then I propose that we block the ones who aren't already blocked, and then close this thread. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That was all the action I could really expect/hope for. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't get the logic of people who do stuff like this. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wow. People write My Little Pony fiction? Drmies (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Lots of them. FIMFiction has north of a billion (yes, with a b) words of pony fanfiction on it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• A link to some explanation of what the hell you all mean by "doxxing" would be helpful for those unfamiliar with this neologism. See Doxing. Otherwise we might assume it was related to "becoming a Doxy:" Floozy, prostitute, mistress. Edison (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Don't be such a luddite, Edison, with your old-fashioned "dictionary" full of dead, stupid words. Besides, you're wrong: a "doxy" is clearly a more economical version of User:Roxy the dog, with some metathesis or sumpin' thrown in for good measure. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Isn't a doxy a little winged creature that Mrs. Weasley was cleaning out of Sirius' house? Btw, @Tryptofish:, you reverted my attempt to wrap this up nicely, so care to explain what you hope to accomplish by keeping this open? Tarc (talk) 01:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I trust that is no longer a serious question. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Why isn't it a serious question? What administrative action are you seeking here? Tarc (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Well, it's obvious to me. Take a look at my 23:26 comment. If you wanted to wrap it up, I wonder why you have continued to comment afterwards, and in any case, you were more than a wee bit "involved". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hey, I resemble that remark. -Doxy the rog™ (resonate) 03:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• One of the editors involved in the GamerGate article dispute, Tarc, apparently commented this doxxing article in an edit summary when reverting one of the editors allegedly doxxed: "rv: Good for you to get together some editors who apparently squeezed a non-existent thing out of non-existent sources. It doesn't make t any more real, and it looks like outside eyes are finally getting in on this." I can't interpret that other than an endorsement or approval of the doxxing. Are these kind of shots at the editors mentioned in the article acceptable? --Pudeo' 03:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure he's just talking about other editors looking at the article; people often refer to getting "other eyes" on stuff. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Though it should be noted that Tarc deliberately said (On Wikipediocracy, with the same name) I had fun on Wikipediocracy for awhile pretending to be a black conservative. Can’t really say why or when it started, it just kind of came about during some discussion or other, that it’d be fun to be something else and argue as if that was important. So I rolled with it. “As a black man…” can be quite an argument-buster if wielded correctly.

We can smell our own; Tutelary is complexly, Grade-A full of shit.

As for the rest of the rabble at the Zoe Quinn and related articles, it’s a continuation of the original harassment she endured; the overlap of white, single 18-35 yr olds who are both gamers and Wikipedians is sizable. Since Tarc is a Misplaced Pages editor, can anything be done about this comment? Tutelary (talk) 10:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that that wasn't someone who used Tarc's name to get him into trouble on Misplaced Pages? If we rely on Wikipediocracy comments to block Misplaced Pages users then Reddit comments are grounds for blocking as well. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I see that someone made a point about this by imposing as me on Wikipediocracy and commenting about my blocks, and even calling Drmies a 'nutjob' and such and complaining about an apparent 'feminist dominance' on here. This is growing to be quick harassment, only thing that's missing is the harassing phone calls. Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is a problem with the anonymous comment section of a blog; anyone can be anyone, identity is not provable. Perhaps this will be one of those proverbial "teachable moments", and going forward you will be less dismissive of the harassment endured by Quinn, Sarkeesian, et al... Tarc (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody on Misplaced Pages is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I call BS. Every intentional violation of BLP is an act of harassment, as far as I'm concerned. Ask around about what Qworty was doing: it was harassment. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

... and Qworty's little game was exposed by Wikipediocracy and its so-called "doxxing," I remind everyone. Then Qworty acknowledged the accuracy of this on-wiki and only then was the community capable of doing anything. So-called doxxing has its place and Wikipediocracy doesn't engage in it either frequently or lightly. Carrite (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Evidence suggests, TD, that you were outed because you attracted attention by behaving badly in public and by leaving a trail which made it easy to tie your behavior, good or bad, into a single identity with a real-world name. That's your fault, and in the real world, pointing over at Wikipediocracy and bellowing "they outed me!" is either a sign that you don't really care that they did that, or an act of colossal stupidity. Either way, the revenge you seek here is a childishness which should be disregarded in favor of a consideration of your sins at the articles in question, where you apparently are pursuing some sort of vendetta. Mangoe (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously blaming him for getting doxed? Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Why, yes, I am. People who don't act like that don't motivate others to find out why they are acting that way, and those who are so promiscuous with their identity do not find such curiosity so easily satisfied. Mangoe (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's an interesting moral quandary, isn't it? On the one hand, WP:OUTING is strongly forbidden by site policy, and it causes people significant distress. Some "outings" appear to have served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer. On the other hand, Wikipediocracy contributors have also successfully identified several cases of serious abuse of Misplaced Pages, where repellent behavior would have continued indefinitely if not for Wikipediocracy's "outing" (the cases I have in mind are those of Qworty (talk · contribs) and Little green rosetta (talk · contribs), although the latter seems to be active again now with an alternate account). We actually owe Wikipediocracy a debt of gratitude for calling attention to those cases, because these "outings" served a constructive purpose and likely reduced the real-life harm these individuals had caused. So... like most real-life ethical questions, it's not as black-and-white as one would like to believe. MastCell  17:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

As someone who got doxxed for "behaving badly" by having opinions about BLPs, you can fuck right off with that. The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar. Protonk (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is a response to me (based on the indenting, I'm guessing it's not), but in any case I'd put your "outing" firmly in the category of "served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer." I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. MastCell  19:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not directed at you. I was torn between just indenting for threading or pinging, but I figured it was less justifiable to "ping" someone and tell them to fuck off than it would be to just say it. Protonk (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

To respond to your comments that it isn't always black and white, that is true but in a really unpelasant way. To the person doing the doxxing, it's often completely black and white. Back in the day BLP apostasy was exactly that in the eyes of folks at WR and other places. BLPs were a struggle for the heart of the project and represented a real potential damage to humans based on anonymous work. We can look at them and say that this manichean view was unfounded, but they don't feel that way. The folks at Wikipediocracy are likewise concerned over sexism and harassment getting "justified" in the encyclopedia. Their concern "looks" better to us (after all, the gamer gate stuff is disgusting, but that's a story for another time), so we might be more inclined to view the outing as a necessary journalistic evil. But I don't think we need to dig too far into the piece to see that characterization as strained. The run down on TD from that article is basically "look at this fucking loser", which is par for the course with outing articles. Protonk (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's disappointing that nothing besides a lot of talk is going to come of this, but "The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar." I couldn't put it any better than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that none of you are meant to be speechifying in relation to BLPs, either in articles or talkpages, then chilling of such speech would seem to be a good thing and in accordance with this site's principles. John lilburne (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Protonk (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLPN is that-a-way. Doxxing people is not the way to correct BLP problems. In fact, the spirit of WP:BLP is that living persons should be treated with respect, and even Misplaced Pages editors are living persons. meta:Privacy is another of this site's principles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to BLPs no one should be engaging in any form of agenda pushing. The talk page of Quinn is an object lesson in agenda pushing, attempts to get inappropriate sources accepted, character assassination, and wearisome arguing. Such speech has, according to the rules, no place here. If no one here will get the house in order and freeze it out don't complain when outside forces do the job for you all. John lilburne (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I was outed for being an admin and having the "wrong" opinion on wikipedia BLP policy and expressing that opinion in RfCs and on project talk pages. Not discussing subjects or whatever else. My point above was about the entirely bullshit notion that getting doxxed by some random person with an axe to grind is karmic punishment for "bad" behavior. If it is, it is only so accidentally. The main function is to make the outed person look small and feel vulnerable. Protonk (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act. It sounds like your situation was done to you out of vengefulness and spite, which isn't cool at all, and I sympathize if you were doing something good here. There are other situations, e.g. Qworty, where the revelation of an editor's identity was a good thing, as it unmasked some rather nefarious deeds. The right to privacy here isn't quite the same as a right to anonymity. Tarc (talk) 23:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

>Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act.

It kind of is. If you have a specific criticism on someone, make that criticism. But doxxing is dumping a huge amount of info for the purposes of humiliation or intimidation. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it kind of isn't. Per my example above, Qworty was rightly shamed and driven from the project. That was about a textbook example of "good doxxing" as one can find. Tarc (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what Qworty was, but if he was being criticized for a specific set of behaviors that's not doxxing. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that it is my contention that anyone editing BLP content ought not to be anonymous, that at the very least they should have there contact details held on file by the WMF I'm hardly going to be sympathetic about the doxxing of an admin. Sometimes it might be karmic punishment, sometimes revenge, sometimes simply for the LOLZ, it makes no difference. People put controversial things online under their own name all the time without any ill consequences. You deal with any harassment as it happens and the WMF should protect those that are targeted, but having the RL identity of a WP administrator or participant in BLPs isn't harrassment. You are relying on security by obscurity, that is really the wrong way of doing it. Al most all of you can be doxxed by a determined set of people. John lilburne (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mangoe:: The real concern with it is A) it is against the rules, B) chilling effects, and C) that they doxxed someone else who, according to them, was underaged and (possibly) transgendered. As I noted, I don't actually care that they doxxed me in the abstract, but if they were Misplaced Pages users who were engaging in conversation with me on the article (they weren't) and they wrote an outside hit piece on me, that would obviously be an issue, no? Especially if they were willing to do it against people who, you know, did care. The allegations in the article were false in any event; indeed, it was noted that several of the revdels were done in error, because they were, in fact, sourced and thus probably weren't necessary. A couple of them were probably necessary, but they were not done maliciously, and we discussed it on the talk page. The rest of their accusations were... what, exactly? That I was fat and jealous of Zoe Quinn, despite not even working on video game development? Given that the discussions can be seen over on the talk pages for Zoe Quinn and GamerGate, you should really look there to see whether they're, well, just plain old wrong. As they are. They're angry more or less because their POV is that it is all sexist misogyny; they are fanatics. The reality is that the reliable sources paint a much more complicated picture, with claims of misogyny being only one side of the story - the other side being that it is about something else. Actually, it is really about five or six different stories at this point, because the reality is that more or less Zoe Quinn was the ignition point for a lot of pre-existing conflicts in the gaming community, regarding corruption, nepotism, misogyny, the so-called "social justice warriors", insulting gamers, general toxicity of the community, and several other things. It is kind of stupid. But, well, I edit stuff about current events sometimes. It just so happens that this is a particularly dumb one which ended up becoming huge thanks to early attempts at censorship causing the Streisand Effect. At this point, it is being noted by the Taiwanese press as being worrisome because they're afraid that if people don't make nice by the holiday season, it might negatively affect console sales because people will see the nastiness and choose not to buy consoles (whose components are sourced in Taiwan), and instead buy tablets (which are mostly made in China). All this, over a dumb fight on the internet. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I just read the Wikipediocracy blog piece that gave rise to this ANI thread. I'm no fan of insults to women's dignity, and I think that a lot of what is in the piece does a positive service (as indeed many of the blog pieces there do, in my opinion, because anything as big as Misplaced Pages can do with some skeptical watching). However, I think a useful thought experiment is to read the piece while mentally deleting all of the actual naming of editors. Go ahead, say someone is such-and-such years old, and they previously claimed to be such-and-such a gender, and so forth – but just leave out the personally identifying information. In terms of investigative journalism, the beneficial effect would have been exactly the same. But the addition of actually identifying private individuals (I wonder if someone could sue Wikipediocracy for defamation?) just makes it look like 4chan. Maybe the people at Wikipediocracy think that they are big impressive defenders of integrity who put Misplaced Pages's house in order, but to me the naming just makes them look like a couple of teenage bullies. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This whole conversation almost makes me glad I didn't know better than to use my real name when registered 8 years ago, instead of User:MsSmartyPants or something appropriate. Of course it also makes me wonder what to do when such information is revealed and an editor is being disruptive or POV pushing to the max. I guess nothing, except some how or other let them know that you know? Hmmmmm... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:08, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Pudeo?

Um, regarding this edit, which some unknown "Pudeo" decided to harp on...you have it wrong. "outside eyes are finally getting in on this" referred to other Wikipedians who had never been a part of older discussions at 2014 Isla Vista killings, not anyone off-site. It has nothing to do with "doxxing", and doesn't even have a connection to the Gamergate stuff we're talking about here. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. Titanium Dragon already corrected me on that. And heh, don't be so confused if "unknown" editors comment here - that's the reason why issues are posted to ANI in the first place. --Pudeo' 14:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

A question

If such an issue reveals that a Misplaced Pages user, through looking at their contributions to an external site, has a conflict of interest or other viewpoint that makes them incompatible with editing certain Misplaced Pages articles, is that sufficient reason to take action here? I'm not entirely sure if this has occurred before, but I'm sure it probably has. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

you're not sure but you're sure? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well spotted. Typing at the same time as being harassed by daughter#1 to help with her Maths homework. Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to ping/link and dredge up old drama, but yea, a year or so ago, Arbcom banned a user for edits made to Encyclopedia Dramatica regarding another Wikipedian. BTW, file an ANI on your kid for harassment, they'll send her to bed without supper. (in case there'a any confusion, yes, that is a joke) Tarc (talk) 19:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

In 2011, a user was indef blocked for canvassing on the men's rights site antimisandry.com and for using WP:Socks. The SPI was inconclusive but the off-wiki canvassing was too obvious to ignore. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Much as this sort of thing makes me uncomfortable, if the allegations that certain editors are pursuing an agenda against a BLP subject are true (I haven't evaluated the allegations beyond skimming the WO blog post), then I would say we most certainly should take action here. Most of us are here to build a neutral reference work. We get very hot under the collar about "paid editing" or "paid advocacy" but the corporate spammers are usually quite easy to spot and block. It seems to me that we should get much hotter under the collar about subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality, especially when it is directed at subjects who are real people whose lives and personal and professional reputations could be affected by a slanted Misplaced Pages article. Or do we have to wait for another Seigenthaler incident and a knee-jerk reaction to adverse publicity? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

While that sounds wonderful, if we really go after all the subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality in addition to the more obvious examples then there will be few editors left to contribute to this site.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be a start to restrict BLP editing to editors who have demonstrated that they can edit biographies responsibly. (This could be a separate user right.) As it is, Misplaced Pages is throwing BLPs to the vultures to pick and fight over. Andreas JN466 03:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we take a binding vote on this right now? Also, could WP administrators please start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy? In my eight years here I don't think I've ever seen ad admin step up and openly enforce that policy. Cla68 (talk) 05:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Andreas, could that BLP user right be proposed somewhere? We could extend it to all BLPs (though it would stop mistakes from being fixed, including by the subject), or use it as a new layer of protection for any BLP deemed problematic. SlimVirgin 13:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Found your proposal on the mailing list, March 2011. SlimVirgin 15:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This is an excellent idea. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

An intriguing idea. How does someone demonstrate that they can edit biographies responsibly when they're not allowed to edit them until they've demonstrated it? GoldenRing (talk) 06:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Submission of responsibly written and appropriately sourced biographies through AfC, for example, or solid research contributions to BLP talk pages. Andreas JN466 12:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, it still smells a lot like the established BLP club marking their turf. How is this consistent with the third pillar? GoldenRing (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not about marking turf; it's about making use of the flexibility demanded by the fifth pillar in order not to have fucked-up biographies that make a mockery of the second pillar and aren't consistent with anything in the Foundation's charitable mission. Andreas JN466 06:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You can get in trouble for your behavior off-site, and I think that's absolutely okay. And if you admit to being paid or whatever to edit articles, or otherwise engaging in behavior against the rules, using off-site posting as evidence is perfectly acceptable. That being said, we should not be barring people from articles simply because they have some sort of point of view; editors are allowed to have points of view. You have points of view, I have points of view, we all have points of view. That's fine. What is a problem is when it affects Misplaced Pages. The reality is that the people most likely to edit articles are people who are most interested in them, which is going to inevitably and invariably mean that they have a point of view on them. The problem comes when they're unable to act as responsible editors of Misplaced Pages. As long as they are WP:CIVIL, maintain a WP:NPOV in the articles (remember, editors can have points of view, but articles cannot), and otherwise behave within the rules, there's no reason to ban them. In any case, it would benefit people for making false aliases for the sole purpose of editing Misplaced Pages to make it impossible to trace back their opinions and thus result in such bans, which is highly undesirable - having traceability is both useful and worthwhile. Frankly, if you conduct yourself poorly on Misplaced Pages and you have an obvious point of view, we can deal with it easily enough - and indeed, more easily than if we institute such a thing.

It also would encourage people to write attack pieces like this if they were "rewarded" by getting revenge on people they didn't like, which would be extremely bad. You don't want to encourage negative behavior.

The fact that Tarc commented on that article approvingly, for instance, should not be grounds for banning him from editing those articles - but repeatedly calling people misogynists on the talk page and elsewhere would warrant action, because at that point, he'd be breaking actual rules (namely, against civility on Misplaced Pages). I don't care if he is pro-social justice, and neither should anyone else; the problem comes when it results in edit wars, incivility, excessive POV pushing, ect. which are all actions on Misplaced Pages.

We have rules against outing people and suchlike for a reason, and we definitely should not encourage people to do so. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

When editors actively push an agenda that could reasonably be construed as misogynistic, in tone or intent, said editors do not get to hide behind civility shields, I'm afraid. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of anyone's agenda, WP:CIVIL is one of the Five Pillars and those who violate it are violating policy, I'm afraid. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What if an editor admits to hacking into others computers? I'd be wary opening links posted by an editor like that, I think it puts other Misplaced Pages editors at risk --81.129.126.66 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

If someone is admitting to engaging in illegal activity, at that point the police should be involved and I would recommend contacting the police/FBI/whatever agency is relevant in whatever country the user is from. People who post malicious/harmful links on Misplaced Pages tend to get banned rather quickly; reporting such incidents to admins is very important. Incidentally, if you are referring to the user who I think you're referring to with this, you can relax; the person who claims to be a hacker who uses the same username on various messageboards started using it back in 2007, while the Misplaced Pages user used a different handle until 2014, and they aren't the same gender; they're almost certainly different people, especially given the Misplaced Pages user's supposed age. A lot of people happen to have the same usernames on the internet; I may be the most prominent Titanium Dragon, for instance, but Titanium-Dragon (with the hyphen) on tumblr is not me, and there is a WoW clan which uses my name which I am unrelated to, having never even played the game. I've actually spoken to several folks who use my name over the years, making jokes with them about who the real one was. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Your name consists of two common words, however. When someone's shared handle consists of a non-English word and exactly the same 3-digit number, and they have clearly the same interests (right down to individual people) on more than one website, then I can think we can pretty much assume they're the same person. Not to mention there has been further links posted off-wiki, which I won't repeat but are 100% convincing. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:: While I've been ignoring this because the issue has been resolved (and because I've been busy doing other, much more enjoyable things than argue with folks on Misplaced Pages), I will note that someone sent me a private message on Twitter which more or less confirms that said user is the same person. However, it also confirms that they're telling the truth on their profile; they identify as female, and have done so elsewhere since as of at least March of this year, using the same name and everything. As long as they're behaving themselves on Misplaced Pages, I don't really care who they "really are" and what they self identify as. If someone says that they're a lobster, I'm fine with that, as long as they don't try and edit all the articles about seafood to complain about the terrors of cooking their people alive and try to put seafood boil into Category:Genocide. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're sure of that? --81.129.126.66 (talk) 21:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

A new game and a suggestion

Anyone want to guess who User:PseudoSomething is? Black Kite (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, I know it's not difficult. Can I suggest, apart from the full protection and RD2 that is covering those four articles now, we simply indef any "new" editor who heads straight for those articles and starts with the misogynistic crap. There's only two possible reasons for it; they're a sock of another editor, or they're a meatpuppet. In neither case do I see that we're losing anything here. Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Who am I supposed to be? Honestly? This is the first time I have ever made an account on Misplaced Pages. That is why I haven't even tried to touch the edit button on an article. I am trying to speak on behalf of the GG side because of a lot of the crap that has been said about us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Familiarity with Misplaced Pages (i.e. linking, indenting, reliable sources) whilst claiming you don't really know how it works, and then heading straight for another editor with the same criticisms as other accounts. Oh, and a user page that says "I'm New". Please don't take us to be stupid people. Black Kite (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I still have no idea who you think I am. I link to things because you kinda need proof behind it. I indent because I see everyone else doing it, and you add 1 : on each time you want to post under someone. Its just formatting, and every site has different formatting. Why should I post if I am going to fuck up the formatting of a ton of other people? I said my say to Tarc because he was pushing a biased POV and North (I think that is their name), because of my concerns. I put "I am New" in my user profile because I thought you needed to have that made for you to have a talk page, in case anyone needed to post something on there. Your calling me out for studying the formatting of the site before posting, for linking proof behind what I say, and for something I made to try to make sure I am within the confides of communications. PseudoSomething (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Just another sock/meatpuppet arrived to try to ram the "angry gamer POV" into the articles in question, showing up with an instant familiarity with both the Misplaced Pages and who's who in discussions that precede his alleged "new" arrival. WP:RBI and keep an eye out for the next one. Tarc (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

So far, yall have called me a misogynist, a sockpuppet/meatpuppet (I dont even know what the hell a meat pupper is), have said my learning the protocols of Misplaced Pages before posting were bad, I havent even edited an article and didn't plan on it, and your trying to silence me. Misplaced Pages can do IP's right? Since you would only find this account on my home IP. Is this how all Misplaced Pages users are, or just a minority? I would think a minority, because the admin on the GamerGate page actually talked to me last night (or was it the night before), and listened to my say on things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 19:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Meatpuppet: (noun). A person or persons canvassed offsite in an attempt to sway consensus in the meatpuppeteer's favor. Etymology: a sockpuppet made of meat. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What, you knew what all these things about Misplaced Pages were straight away (to which we can add "pushing a biased POV" and a clear knowledge of Checkuser), but you didn't know what a meatpuppet was? That's poor research. Black Kite (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I knew what a biased POV is because I talked about biased POV when others try to explain about GamerGate without providing the right info. Its a Point of View that is biased. What is wrong with that? PseudoSomething (talk) 19:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I will note that while PS's contributions are likely from the push from outside WP to try to balance the article (eg a bit of meatpuppetry), they have not tried to edit war , haven't put BLP in the talk page, and are provided some food for thought when the article gets unlocked, which I'm happy to listen to and consider. Yes, some of the behavior is consistent with socks but without other evidence and signs of disruption, we can't do much either. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for helping Masem, I felt incredibly alarmed when this happened and didn't know what to do, honestly. I am trying to see how I can help balance the article, and I didn't even want to edit the article because of me being on the other side. So thank you for helping, it kinda calmed my nerves on this whole thing. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Holy shit guys, this is the reason why Misplaced Pages becomes a closed garden of old boys and can't get new editors. Am I now supposed to roll my eyes every time the Misplaced Pages Signpost complains that new editor statistics are going the wrong way? The moment someone new comes along to a controversial topic that's obviously making internet headlines, people are quick to jump on them, use disparaging epithets like "angry gamer" (thanks Tarc), and accuse them of being the neckbeard nazis. Assume good faith, you have no idea whether or not they are a genuine editor or an agenda troll; if they really are new, lead them to the right path (you guys were once newcomers to Misplaced Pages as well, stop pretending you guys were born with the knowledge of how Misplaced Pages works), and if they really are trolls, then give them enough rope to let them hang themselves. What I'm seeing here is sickening. --benlisquare_T•C•E 19:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, AGF only goes so far. When a brand new editor comes to a - let's face it - in the scheme of things fairly obscure article, displays obvious knowledge of Misplaced Pages, and takes up a theme of righting great wrongs exactly where another editor hsas left it - to the point of attacking exactly the same people for exactly the same things - then you have to say, either this is the same person, or there is meatpuppetry going on. There is AGF, and then there is naivete. Black Kite (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't call me naïve, and don't spin the situation to make it look like what people here are doing is completely justified. The #GamerGate hashtag was the top trending tag on Twitter for a significant period of time, until it was dwarfed by the #Destiny hashtag for a day (albeit still remaining active, and still has been ever since Adam Baldwin started the trend). Everyone interested in videogames and their dog knows about GamerGate, it's hardly a niche topic. For a scandal of proportions like this, it's a no brainer that people with opinions will come to Misplaced Pages, create new accounts, and make posts on the talk page about their opinions on the matter. People are using the boogeyman tactic because it's a convenient one. AGF is your responsibility, as a member of this community. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

And those people will immediately pick one of the other contributing editors out (who hasn't actually contributed since their account was created) and start attacking them in exactly the same way as previous accounts, will they? OK then, that's clearly a total coincidence. Silly me. Black Kite (talk) 17:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you benlisquare. I really came to try to have the voice of the other side heard because it was a controversial issue, but I didn't even think of editing the article because I am on the other side of the topic. I felt extremely alarmed and kinda felt like crap since I was being told I was a misogynist, sock puppet, and meat puppet days after I created an account, the mocking from them didn't help either. I gonna do my best to get up on the WP guidelines though and see what I can do. Thank you. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

FYI, between the actual doxxing, and the reporting of said doxxing, there might be a bunch of newbies on the article. So try not to WP:BITE the newbies. They're very likely to perceive it as censorship/harassment, seeing as that is the mentality they're likely coming from. If they don't understand stuff, be gentle. Dunno about this particular user, but people should try to be nice in general. Incidentally, the idea of the point of view and the neutral point of view being important are actually fairly well understood by many random folks on the internet who are completely unrelated to Misplaced Pages; they teach about it in school in the US. Indeed, one of the reasons that many of the gamers are so upset is precisely because they feel that many articles written by the gaming press do not adopt a neutral point of view. Just an FYI; familiarity with the NPOV is hardly surprising amongst this bunch. We may also see an influx of SJW types, who should be treated the same way as we treat the gamers. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Titanium. I actually came before the doxxing, but wanted to make my voice heard about the other side, I didn't even think of editing the article. Your right though, Bias was just easily seen, and it was happening in the article. I didn't even want to edit it because I have bias on the other spectrum. I just wanted to provide the counter point of view.PseudoSomething (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose we site-ban Tutelary, Titanium Dragon and anyone else trying to smear the defamation of Quinn over this encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Add PseudoSomething to that list. I've just read through Talk:GamerGate. How much more time of genuine encyclopedia-builders is going to be consumed by these POV-pushers? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose that you stop proposing site bans for people who have committed the crime of commenting on a talk page. —Xezbeth (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You say that like I propose site bans all the time. I'm pretty sure it's the second time in 8 years I've ever made such a proposal. And I'm proposing they be banned because they're here trying to defame one of our BLP subjects. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd oppose such draconian bans. You're essentially silencing anyone who wishes to question the current state of the article, under the guise of "defamation". Exactly what defaming posts have these people made on the talk page? Above, there have been allegations by Black Kite that these users spew, quote, "misogynistic crap". Where exactly is this misogynistic crap on the talk page? I don't see it. I haven't seen any hate speech against women at all by these individuals; sure, they may have opinions that differ from other people, but that is not misogyny. I'd like to see you directly address and explain exactly what part of these editors' posts are so defamatory. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not their defamation, the defamation and invasion of privacy that is the the root of this piece of misogynistic shit. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"misogynistic shit" - again, you're throwing buzzwords at me, instead of explaining your position properly. What words have these editors said that justify a ban? Where have women been attacked? These editors are here because they believe that the page is imbalanced, and are trying to tell their personal opinions on the matter. Discussion is the core aspect of any constructive negotiation, you need to understand what they think while they need to understand what you think. Conveniently silencing them instead of addressing their points and refuting them is one of the most underhanded things you can do. Picture this: You are debating with an Armenian genocide denialist. Would you rather have a rational discussion with him, addressing each others' points, or would you prefer that he screams "AMERICAN IMPERIALIST DOG! TURKISH HISTORY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!" at you over and over again? Because that is exactly what's going on here. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

There is zero problem if the editors have a clear agenda, one that if they spelled it out, would be completely against BLP, but their behavior on wiki is all within the lines of BLP and they are not being disruptive or the like. If they are trying to back up what they think personally with claims from usable RS that support part of what they think and avoid delving into FRINGE, what is wrong with that? So far, save for a few IPs that were dealth with quickly, while I can easily read who is on what side and point out things we have to be careful with, there's no statements on the talk page against BLP, nor anyone being disruptive. AGF has to apply unless there's clearer evidence of a problem. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean like restoring BLP violations on the Anita Sarkeesian page and IP gossip at Talk:Zoe Quinn or adding hearsay about the suicide of Amanda Todd or defending statements like this one about Amanda Filipacchi? I'm not sure if you consider the Journal of New Male Studies for Michael Kimmel's BLP or the ex-boyfriend's blog for Zoe Quinn's BLP "usable" sources, but Tutelary doesn't consider the sources unusable in those BLP contexts just because they're biased. Or how about the Men's Rights Agency? And that's not taking the information about the editor into consideration that would get me accused of "outing" them. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 17:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I support a siteban for Tutelary per NOTHERE (in fact I was hoping the thread above would produce a consensus as to whether the off-wiki evidence can be used to justify a block). At most, I'd support a page/topic ban for Titanium Dragon because he seems to have an interest n contribution to Misplaced Pages beyond their slightly unhealthy fixation on this topic (though asking them to walk away voluntarily might have the same effect). I'm inclined to AGF (for now) on PseudoSomething (unless somebody wants to present more evidence), and I suggest we semi-protect all the pages (including talk pages) involved until this nonsense dies down an that admins closely monitor them and be prepared to sanction any editor who does not conduct themselves appropriately on those pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Talk pages should never be semi-protected if the mainspace article is protected. A good faith IP editor wants to fix a spelling error, but can't use {{edit semi-protected}}. What then? Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the 💕 that anyone can contribute to, not your secret club of elite brothers. The administrative team is more than capable enough in dealing with troublemakers should they pop their heads out of the woodwork, blocking drive-by IP offenders who post any BLP-violating material on the relevant pages should be effective enough. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• My secret club of elite brothers? If I was running a secret club of elite brothers, I'd have one of my secret elite brothers secretly and elitely remove you from the secret, elite club and secretly and elitely oversight that comment so that I could secretly and elitely get my way. Oh, and they'd go to WP:RFED to ask a member of the secret club of elite brothers to secretly and elitely make the edit for them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at both Tutelary's and Titanium Dragon's long-term edit history, they are not at all limited to this topic and especially in the case of Titanium Dragon I can't see he has even edited this topic before. Calling that an "unhealthy fixation" is simply false and incivil. I might add that one editor, who was in the other POV camp than Tutelary, did almost 500 edits related to Zoe Quinn/GamerGate in a few days. You're not calling him NOTHERE and fixated because...? It is also a bit nasty that doxxing is not taken with due seriousness and the thread is tried to turn into a boomerang just because you seem to personally disagree with their position in a content dispute. Get a grip, HJ Mitchell. --Pudeo' 15:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What makes you think I gave a flying fuck about anyone's position in a content dispute? Editors should conduct themselves properly, both with regard to other editors and with regard to the subjects of articles, and if they don't, I have no qualms about sanctioning them. Oh, and in the case of Tutelary, pretending to be somebody else so you can push your POV is despicable and (in my opinion) ample grounds for a siteban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have -not- impersonated anyone else, my name is Danielle and I am a woman, and you referring to me by male pronouns is especially offensive given that the only institution to express that view is Wikipediocracy, the institution which doxed me. Please don't do it again. Oh, and how is expressing a different opinion 'POV pushing'? Do you have any on-site proof of this at all? Period? Tutelary (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Where have I referred to you using male pronouns? If I have, it was unintentional—I try to make a point of using gender-neutral pronouns except where I know somebody has a preference. As to "on-site proof", that is precisely the point of this discussion, isn't it? If there was sufficient on-wiki evidence, you'd be indef'd right now; we're currently discussing whether the off-wiki evidence is sufficient presents grounds to ban you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking into account benlinsquare's sage advice, I'll now support the very wise HJ Mitchell's more modest suggestion (minus the talk page semi-protection, per benlinsquare, again). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You're going to support site banning me? If anything other than doxxing me and harassing me, what did the Wikipediocracy state? They looked into where I edited the most. That's -nothing- in support of a sanction. I'm sure that a good amount of people have tons of edits to Barrack Obama's article, yet unless there is any problems with those edits, they should absolutely not be sanctioned for merely being active on those pages. Expressing a different opinion than other editors on an article/talk page is also not a crime that is punishable by death. Obvious oppose by me. Tutelary (talk) 15:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that you posting on the hacking forum? What is the risk that you might hack other editors here and steal their bank details in that case? --109.148.125.244 (talk) 16:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary

• Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere, Tutelary needs, at the very least, a topic ban from any BLP. Frankly a site ban would be easier, but this is a minimum. I do not see an urgent issue with Titanium Dragon at this moment - they have moved away from the problems which led to their previous edits being rev-deleted. If you respond to this with a Support, please identify your preferred sanction. Thanks. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)m

What is the 'extremely convincing evidence' which you seem to have not posted? There needs to be extremely convincing evidence to justify sanctions against me, and I have not seen a single argument presented or a single set of diffs that I am disruptive in any way shape or form. There needs to be -evidence- and there is an extreme lack there of to justify sanctions. Obvious oppose. Tutelary (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban with urging to edit somewhere less controversial. KonveyorBelt 17:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support siteban/indefinite block (as above). If and only if that's not possible, I'd support a BLP ban, though it's woefully inadequate. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose What an awesome bandwagon. Something that is posted "elsewhere" but is not linked to from here cannot be used as justification here. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wrong, per precedent. Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose insufficient evidence, has a very short block log (one short block that was good-faith unblocked). Just because someone has edited BLP articles and some of that information has been removed on BLP grounds (you know many living persons are controversial, right?) there's no reason and even so there is no pattern here. It is also disturbing that somehow this ANI thread (that wasn't even started by Tutelary) has become an absurd boomerang with no protection for those who were the targets of the doxxing, even using the doxxing article alleged information for borderline-harrassment. Exactly what related to GamerGate would warrant the topic here? How is this vote related to this ANI thread? --Pudeo' 19:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. Knowing full well that this will probably only mean they'll be back with another account tomorrow. (Will support BLP topic ban if and only if site ban does not pass.) Andreas JN466 19:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What evidence or implications there are that this user has been involved in sockpuppeting or would do so? --Pudeo' 20:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Anything to pry one of the misogynist warriors away from the battleground is a good move, as this user is clearly here to see that their anti-Quinn/Sarkeesian, etc... point-of-view is represented in their respective WP:BLP]]s. Tarc (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

  "One of the misogynist warriors"? You have been already asked to remain civil in this ANI thread by Titanium Dragon and by Drmies but now you have moved into direct personal attacks. Perhaps it's you who needs a cooldown. --Pudeo' 20:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• This Drmies sees no personal attack here. Drmies (talk) 03:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I personally find the off-wiki evidence intriguing but ultimately circumstantial. That being said, Tutelary's on-wiki behavior has been unacceptable, as mentioned by User:Sonicyouth86 above. With defamatory edits like this and even taking someone to ANI for removing similar edits, she clearly shouldn't be editing BLP articles. And her pushing of unreliable sources shows she probably shouldn't be editing at all. Woodroar (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Your first diff was posted by an IP, not by me and the ANI was to make sure that the administrator was within his right to remove the section, and I closed it myself because it ultimately was. I don't see how that is ultimately disruptive to the project and deserving an indefinite BLP topic ban. Tutelary (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Defamatory material was removed on BLP grounds and you chose to restore it, which is no different from adding it yourself. That you had to take it to ANI rather than read WP:BLP is disruption to the project. Woodroar (talk) 21:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

This is rather weak. Coming to ANI for clarification and accepting the decision should not be considered disruption. If it were, any administrative action review which gets upheld would be considered disruption and would lead to sanctions for the person bringing up the review. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

ANI shouldn't be a "is this really policy?" Get Out of Jail Free card, though it often works as a final reminder for editors willing to change. That ANI was in July. Restoring the defamatory material was in August. This is now a recurring issue. Woodroar (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Opposed. WP:HARASS 72.89.93.110 (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban for the reasons stated here. I think that a minimum of trust is required for interactions among editors and I don't know how the community is supposed to react when Tutelary edits particular BLPs and articles about websites like Reddit or when they write about what they – as a woman – were able to "shrug off". Feigning collective ignorance can't be the desired solution. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per HJMitchell. I'd prefer an indef block/site ban but in the very least a BLP ban for Tutelary needs to brought into effect--Cailil 21:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose The evidence brought here seems to be about good faith disagreements mostly. No evidence is presented of actual editing of articles in an inappropriate fashion. Just say no to lynch mobs.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question. I want to ask for the exact evidence for this proposal. There are editors whose judgment I respect who are supporting here, and I have no use for people who intentionally defame BLP subjects or edit in a misogynistic manner, so I am not (yet) arguing against the proposal. But, somewhat per the subsection just below, I'm unclear as to the reasons. First of all, I oppose enacting any sanctions on the basis of "evidence" posted elsewhere. If Wikipediocracy presents evidence of disruption on Misplaced Pages, please show the diffs here. Beyond that, it seems to me that editors are citing diffs presented by Sonicyouth86, including: , which does strike me as containing some BLP violation, but it's the only diff like that that I've seen so far, and by itself it isn't enough for sanctions. The other links provided go either to edits where I don't see a problem (but I might be missing something), or to discussions where I might disagree with Tutelary, but I do not see evidence of working against consensus, just of expressing dissenting opinions. This is a real question, and again, I haven't prejudged this, but I'd like the editors who support bans to provide the exact evidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It is likely there are many more, but they have been revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point, but please at least point to edit histories where that has happened. If I were to see a whole bunch of edits by Tutelary that were revdeled, I'd AGF that the revdels were appropriate, and that would be evidence that would convince me. But the statement that it is "likely" needs to be backed up. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The page history of Talk:Zoe Quinn, for example, from 11:05, August 23, 2014‎ to 12:18, August 23, 2014‎ was revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have just examined the entire edit histories of Zoe Quinn and Talk:Zoe Quinn, from the creation of the page up to the present. There are depressingly many revdeled edits by other editors, which makes me wonder why we aren't looking at some of them (and of course I cannot know about anything that was suppressed/oversighted). On the page, zero of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary. On the talk page, three of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary, and in all three cases, the revdeled sequence begins with an edit by someone else, so I cannot see whether Tutelary's edits worsened the situation or not; in one case, I see Tutelary reverting Mr. Stradivarius, so that might have been restoring objectionable material, but I do not know that for sure. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It occurs to me that I ought to ask: Mr. Stradivarius, what do you recollect about that revdeled edit? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: It was a proposed section for the article entitled "Scandal", five paragraphs long, written by Titanium Dragon. It was mostly well sourced and mostly neutral, but, in my opinion, some of the key phrases about Quinn were not neutral, and some of the sources used were not reliable. I thought that the problems were enough that it should be removed from the talk page. It was not so problematic that I would consider it as a base for any sanctions proposed here, though. I did think that removing it would be seen as being heavy-handed - and I was right - but I thought that it should be removed anyway. The edit itself was revdelled, not oversighted, so I can still access it. I can email it to you so that you can look at it yourself, if you like. (I see that you haven't set email in your preferences, but if you email me, I can email you back with the section.) — Mr. Stradivarius 05:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Strad, thanks so much. That explanation is very helpful to me. And is it any wonder, in this context, why I don't enable e-mail and I take so many other precautions about my privacy?! No, there's no need to e-mail it to me. I'm seeing a very consistent pattern here, of Tutelary reacting to edits on talk pages by other editors. The other editors make what I think are helpful edits, reverting content that might violate BLP or reverting images that might be offensive, or closing discussions. Tutelary repeatedly objects to those things, and reverts them. If one looks at the incidences in which Tutelary has actually done something objectionable (in my opinion, at least), it always involves reverting someone else in talk space. Always. The obnoxious or BLP-violating material always starts with another editor, and sometimes that other editor is Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: Are you satisfied with Mr. Strad's explanation of what was removed? Nothing which got revdeled from me was posted in bad faith, and all of it was sourced (though, as he noted, he didn't like some of the sources - and at the time, which was fairly early on in the whole thing, the selection of sources was fairly mediocre). It wasn't me randomly attacking Zoe Quinn; it was an attempt at improving the article, and it was all done in good faith. I've reviewed the WP:BLPNAME policy and other related policies since and I think we've all been doing a lot better on it. If you aren't aware, a lot of the problem is that the whole thing started out with Zoe Quinn's ex making a very angry blog post about her being involved with other people, but who she was involved with ended up triggering a bunch of very angry gamers to accuse her and those she was involved with of being corrupt (which actually ended up getting an official response from Kotaku, who employed one of the people involved - several sites also later went on to change their ethics policies to address some of the other issues which ended up being raised). Obviously the whole thing is rife with WP:BLP issues, seeing as it is about living people, and a lot of the really nasty stuff is fundamentally a stupid fight on the internet which ended up blowing up to the point of being noted by the wider press due to some attempts at censorship triggering the Streisand Effect, but given that the inciting incident is important to understanding the issue, it is hard to discuss the whole thing without mentioning it. It is obviously a sensitive subject and is a lot of "fun" to word right, but is also attested in dozens if not hundreds of potential sources at this point, and is noted as being the trigger for the whole thing, which probably helps us now as we can cite Forbes instead of a semi-obscure gaming website. Strad felt some of it wasn't neutrally worded and might be a BLP violation and revdeled it; we've since dealt with things a bit better, I think, and managed to see how to discuss said material on the talk page without issues with BLP. It probably also helps that it ended up in a LOT more sources after the initial discussion. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon, those are certainly arguments that I am open to considering, especially because I think that accusations are being thrown around carelessly and I don't want to see anyone get railroaded here. I'm at a disadvantage, because I'm not an admin and I cannot see the revdeled edits, so I certainly think that there is room for more discussion. At the same time, I didn't base what I said on a single incident. In looking over edit histories (and initially looking in terms of Tutelary), I kept seeing you getting revdeled again and again. It's been happening a lot. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

That was about Titanium Dragon's suggestions, which were based on some reliable sources, though some were questioned. He just did not provide the sources in the initial suggestion and so the section got removed.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell there was an incident that was about someone other than Tutelary where Tutelary just happened to be caught in the middle. The only other instance seems to have been a rapid Huggle reverting of unexplained blanking by an IP on a non-BLP article where the blanking did have a legitimate BLP basis, albeit not explained. Nothing I have seen suggests the kind of editing warranting such severe sanctions. I actually see one instance of Tutelary reverting alleged BLP violations on Quinn's page. None of this suggests a strong case for sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban. Tutelary joined the gender gap task force, then sought to represent a woman's perspective in discussions on various pages (invariably posting against women's interests – e.g. "Fellow female editor here ... People here are getting mad that a woman's breast is depicted and I'm not sure why." ), while posting misogynist material offwiki. (This can be deduced from his contributions history and early account name.) If a white editor were to join a group on WP aimed at increasing racial diversity, maintain he was black himself, act disruptively around BLPs about black people, and post racism elsewhere, he'd be site-banned. (But if a siteban doesn't go through, then I support a BLP topic ban.) SlimVirgin 23:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• We don't ban people for telling a few off-color jokes on Reddit.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I find the comment at Jimbo's talkpage offensive, myself. Here are all the edits made by Tutelary at the task force: . I've gone through every one of them, and I don't see problems there, although there seems to be a lot of objecting to closing of discussion threads. I think we have to be careful about basing bans on posts supposedly made at other websites. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per the evidence given, to be fair here a topic ban is not forever if the editor in question can win back the trust of the community over time then I see no reason why it couldn't be lifted in the future. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• About that evidence, what I see so far is and . Is there anything else? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Before the ANI, there was pushing to include gossip at Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd. And before that, it was the statement that it's only a BLP violation if it happens on the BLP page. Woodroar (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've done a lot of editing at "Suicide of..." pages. I looked at the Amanda Todd talk page, and although I do see some indication of edit warring, it looks to me like what you call gossip was based on some British news sources saying that the cause of death was hanging, and there was a content dispute about whether the page should include the possible cause of death, or leave it out. And the diff about BLP violation does not actually say what you attribute to it, and seems to me to be more nuanced than that. Again, I still have an open mind, and I am interested in whether I'm simply missing something. And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. But each time I ask for evidence, and only get weak stuff like this, I become increasingly concerned that the evidence is pretty thin. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Per the Private Manning precedent, if this user wants to identify as a woman named "Danielle," then this editor is a woman named Danielle, QED — at least that's the majority view of the nature of gender according to participants in that debate. Not my own perspective of gender but hey, majority: As ye sow, etc. As for the specifics of this incident, based on a diff cited above from the Zoe Quinn talk page, I favor a very narrow ban of this user from the Zoe Quinn biography. The call for a site ban by SlimVirgin above seems a gross overreaction — straight to the death penalty. Carrite (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I said this above, and had an edit conflict, but I'll repeat it here: And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. Really, there's another editor whose name came up earlier in this ANI thread, who has had a lot of edits revdeled at the Zoe Quinn page. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, the rev-del was done because the statements about the controversy on talk were not directly sourced, even though numerous sources existed to back the statements. So, if that is the case, then I don't think any action is really warranted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose- basically, per Tryptofish. Those clamoring for a ban have simply not provided any evidence that this is necessary, despite several requests. I think the grounds for a ban are very flimsy, and appear to be based on a personal dislike for Tutelary and their political opinions rather than any actual misbehaviour, and I oppose at this time. Reyk _YO! 01:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support' topic ban for Tutelary, Titanium Dragon, Puedo. Most of the time on this page we have a problem with people who are alleged to be good content creators but cannot be civil or collaborative. Here we have editors who, at least in their dealings with me, have been respectful and civil but are unable to create content within the bounds of the rules of Misplaced Pages. Editors on this talk page have advocated edits that run counter to fundamental rules of the encyclopedia like RS and BLP. They have challenged first-rate sources like The New Yorker and Time using arguments that amount to conspiracy theories based on Tweets while advocating the use of poor sources, blogs, and forum posts. While, to their credit, they have expressed a desire to conform to our rules, an article involving a vulnerable target of harassment and the focus of intense media attention is too important and sensitive to serve as a learning space for editors struggling to grasp our basic policies. It is a mistake to frame this in a legalistic way, as a "conviction" for bad behavior where editors produce or challenge the "evidence" of their "crime" This is just a way of saying "you aren't ready for this article yet, please edit something else while you get the hang of how things work." Gamaliel (talk) 01:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In the edit history for Zoe Quinn, Tutelary has made a lot of edits, and none of them has been revdeled (I'm not talking about the talk page here). Titanium Dragon has also made a lot of edits, and over and over, they do get revdeled. Puedo has not edited the page. I'm still trying to fully understand this, but it seems to me that Titanium Dragon has been the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think I may have confused Puedo with someone else. Striking until I have time to review the relevant articles fully. You should also look at GamerGate and related articles. Gamaliel (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

What Trytofish said is true, I haven't edited either the talk or article pages of Zoe Quinn/GamerGate at all. I have been commenting things related to feminism/MRM, but very rarely done actual article space edits. To be honest, you probably just support bans for editors whose point-of-view you disagree with. I think it's evident from some of the other support-votes too. --Pudeo' 12:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for mistakenly including you, but one mistaken, unsupported allegation does not justify you making another evidence-free claim. You should step away from this issue if you cannot refrain from making broad, unsupported claims about the motives of numerous other editors. WP:AGF, please. Gamaliel (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Gamaliel. If there is something specific you'd like me to see at GamerGate, please provide a diff. I went through the entire edit history of the page and the talk page, and looked for revdeled edits. Although Tutelary made many edits, none of them appear to have been revdeled (again, I don't know about suppression/oversight). But, again, I do see Titanium Dragon having been revdeled. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Claiming to be a woman while posting misogynist comments. Edit warring to restore inappropriate misogynist image. then joining gender gap group. —Neotarf (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Cleavage is not misogynistic and . . . wasn't the whole discussion about the image? Seems like it was put there by a critic literally illustrating the problem with a ridiculously tactless decision by a Signpost writer.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I do not know if this person identifies as trans-sexual so it is best to be careful here, if they don't though which the editor in question gave no indication in this case then I understand why it would cause others to be upset. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About those two diffs, does not seem to be a problem to me, but does. For me, that makes a third problematic diff. And I've already pointed out that there does not really seem to be a problem at the gender gap page – although I am starting to think that there may be an issue with talk page reverts. Perhaps there should be an editing restriction against reverting in talk space, other than self-reverts. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The person who started the thread on Jimbo's talk and posted the image did it to criticize the usage of the image here. I don't think that is a serious problem.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't, TDA? At this point, I deeply regret supporting your bid for Arbcom. I won't make that mistake again. —Neotarf (talk) 05:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You are suggesting a site ban because someone restored an image of boobs in a discussion that was about said image of boobs and claiming the image of boobs was misogynistic. I find that more silly than serious.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You should read that whole thread, TDA, there's a lot more to it. But of course we won't be able to discourage women from joining the project by just posting a link to a disputed thumbnail image. In order to convince them that Misplaced Pages is just a bunch of predatory neckbeards who want to interact with them with only one hand on the keyboard, you have to actually re-post the image at a larger size, on a talk page with 3,169 page watchers, and make locker room comments about it. And above all, just keep arguing and reverting, after the image has been removed multiple times by multiple editors. —Neotarf (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess locker room talk has gotten a lot more tactful than I remember . . .--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Didn't read the edit summaries, didja. Or the in-line comments you can only see in edit mode. Hmm, I see you have typed the word "boobs" three times...—Neotarf (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I read the summaries and saw the in-line comment too. How many locker room conversations have you heard exactly Neo? Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion of boobs, then perhaps you should go to my talk page. There you can feel free to talk with me about boobs all day.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose So we can't out anyone here but if someone else does the dirty work we'll take it at face value and ban people on the say-so of someone who has a blog about wikipedia. Why not just hand the editors over there the mop? If you want to ban someone do it on the merits, not some low rent horseshit from some random website. Protonk (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually the administrators over there have been handing in their mops lately, interpret that as you will. Carrite (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban only. At an article I was helping help build, Tutelary removed well-sourced content. In my experience, that is one of the clearest indicators of activist editing (please take note of this, administrators, so you can start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy). However, when I opined on the talk page that I thought the section was fine, Tutelary ceased objecting to it. So, I think it's ok for her to continue editing the topics she takes an interest in, EXCEPT for BLPs, because with BLPs there is just no room for activist editing. People's lives are at stake. Cla68 (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose Tutelary does have a problem on talk pages with NPOV can affect her interpretation of sources. That said, I've not seen anything bad faith and I've not seen an active agenda pushing on mainspace. A short BLP topic ban may let her cool her boots but I think a civil explanation of what she's doing wrong, why its wrong and how to do it right would go a lot further to solving the problem. SPACKlick (talk) 08:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support With the additions they made to Zoe and Anitas pages, plus Tutelarys support of The Fappening articles, I find it hard to believe that this person respects the women whose articles they edit. I would suggest a BLP ban, or at the very least, one for the articles for women, as this editor seems to have no desire to break WP:BLP for articles with male subjects --109.148.125.223 (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Here is further evidence that Tutelary understands how WP:BLP works but only chooses to enforce it when it concerns men . I am sure that a BLP ban for the articles of women only would suffice here --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I was holding off posting this but I really think admins should see this link where a user called Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information - you can read one of the images linked here . Tutelary themselves has wrote an article on this website here , so I would say it's likely they are the same Tutelary. This is pretty crucial, as often editors email each other using links provided in the user space, a medium which would allow a user to spread malware through email attachments. For an editor who edits in politically charged areas, this could cause problems in the future --109.148.126.200 (talk) 22:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Hardly any evidence, people are often wrong in BLP, they happen to add just anything. I would just hope that this proposal would enforce Tutelary to learn some more. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose on site ban. People calling for her to be banned for editing based on political beliefs is absurd. Anyone is allowed to freely edit as long as they don't force their views upon other editors and be disruptive. I support a short topic ban on BLP per SPACKlick's proposal above. Misplaced Pages isn't a political arena. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 18:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support per SlimVirgin. Her analogy is apt, and appropriate. Site ban massively preferred. Topic ban (from everything BLP related, not just BLP articles) at the very least. Begoon  18:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban, per precedent of the Essjay controversy. In case you don't recall, Essjay was a highly trusted user that pretended to be a professor of theology to gain advantage in editing arguments. I have been convinced by the evidence presented by Nw on Wikipediocracy that our User:Tutelary is a male pretending to be a female to gain advantage in a "war against the feminists" on Misplaced Pages. I can't link to the evidence myself (an earlier support was removed by Tutelary and later oversighted on request from Tutelary although it didn't link to any personal information) but it is convincing that our Tutelary is the same Tutelary who writes about being "a guy" pretending to be a "a girl" in order to insert RATs, specifically Darkcomet. Our Tutelary added information about Darkcomet to our Remote administration software article. It is convincing that our Tutelary, former User:Ging287 is the same Ging287 who complains about the "gyrocentric POV" on Misplaced Pages. Our Tutelary then claims to be a woman to defend posting a large bosom on the main page. Nothing wrong with holding political beliefs, but per the Essjay precedent, pretending to be a woman to gain advantage in editing disputes is ban worthy. --GRuban (talk) 19:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment for anyone a bit confused at what happened there, Tutelary removed a post which linked to his activities on Reddit and elsewhere. If that's not allowed, I'll just quote this one (bear in mind that he is still pretending to be female on Misplaced Pages) "The exploit ONLY works for Yahoo messenger, sorry I didn’t mention that. But it’s good for pretending to be a girl, all it takes is, “Hey, wanna see me naked? <3" and you've got another slave.". Cheers, Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:, I am a female and I consider it harassment to continue to refer to me by male pronouns. I am a girl, and I'm going to respectfully ask that you refer to me as such. And where did you get that quote? I'm a bit confused by it, namely the terms of 'slaves' and 'exploits and are you supposing I said it somewhere? Tutelary (talk) 19:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

OK - to be clear, are you clearly stating that you are not the person on those two external sites with exactly the same username as your previous one here, and who is interested in exactly the same issues, with exactly the same viewpoints, on those forums as you are on here? If so, how do you explain that astonishing coincidence? I will be quite happy to apologise and withdraw if you can do that. Black Kite (talk) 19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't answer if you don't provide the names of the sites. But please don't link them here, but say their names. I can do my own sleuthing to find the account links. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Since the title of this section is "Wikipediocracy doxxing", perhaps I can suggest you read their article and the comments on it? Oh hang on, I can see from the above postings that you have actually read it. Which means you do know the names of the sites. Here's a fact for you - we're not idiots here Black Kite (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I have not read the comments since the first day because they were all constantly making salacious and offensive comments about me and my supposed off site connections. Plus, as I mentioned within the 'it should be noted' section my heart pressure was spiked and my heart was pacing every single time I thought about it. It's still bad right now, but manageable. I figured that if I continued looking at the article and subsequent comments I would have panic attacks. So I didn't. I did know about Reddit but not the bit about Hackforums. I have accounts on neither. Also, Is that why everybody is getting their pitchforks? Because there's somebody with the same name as me on Hackforums and Reddit and think it's me? Oh, and because I had that sandbox article? Well I think I can cut this straight right now. I began to write that article because Hackforums is one of those 'underground' hacker forums that constantly gets well-deserved flak when actually written about in RS, yet hasn't had an article as of yet. I also found it somewhat stupid that people would register on it and brag about their illegal activities, and they deserve what they get coming to them. Anywho, I never actually submitted it because I talked to the protecting administrator (who fully protected the title because members of the site were subsequently spamming the site which was obviously not notable at the time on Misplaced Pages) who said the article was not up to par. The only reason it was on my radar even is because Miss Teen America got hacked by a member from the forum and googling 'Hackforums wikipedia' came up nothing so I wantd to write the article. Tutelary (talk) 20:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Reddit user Ging287 discussed this revert on Reddit 5 months ago with another Redditor, who complained that that edit reverted an addition he had made. Redditor Ging287 said: "Hello. I was the one who reverted your edit. It was due to the specific wording that you attempted to use." At the time, Ging287 was Tutelary's user name here. More such parallels between Ging287's discussions of Misplaced Pages on Reddit and Ging287's/Tutelary's edits here can easily be found. Andreas JN466 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It is worth noting that this Reddit post, where Redditor Ging287 claimed ownership of Tutelary's edit here, has now been deleted on Reddit (though an archive copy is available). This seems like another remarkable coincidence, and I do not believe Tutelary's comment above, "I have accounts on neither", was truthful. There has been some discussion of this on my user talk page. Andreas JN466 19:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously baiting editors to restore the diff link for the quote so that you can have their answer oversighted again and maybe have them blocked? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a loaded question, like 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' I've done nothing of the sort, but it appears that since Black Kite is the one that proposed this whole thing, it should be a given that I should understand their position, including where I supposedly said something. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the two accounts was on Hackforums. You know, the one you're writing a sandbox article about. User:Tutelary/sandbox/Hackforums. By complete coincidence. --GRuban (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary, you deleted the comment that contained the diff for the quote. Then you had the comment and the diff oversighted. And now you innocently request that someone tell you where you said that stuff about pretending to be a woman. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're confused by the term 'slaves', User:Tutelary, you should read the excellent explanation of that term added to Misplaced Pages by User:Tutelary here. Andreas JN466 20:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I really just forgot about the article since talking to the protecting admin and just let it be. I don't remember things forever, especially things I wrote 3 and a half months ago. Tutelary (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I see you write above your first name is Danielle? The user Tutelary on Hackforums actually uses the same name in one thread. Not the thread he writes "I am a guy" in. Uses the last name and everything. The same last name you use in an account on a Misplaced Pages-related site that I guess you will admit is you. Weird coincidence, huh? --GRuban (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Black Kite, I had asked for clarification, so thank you for expanding on it here. At this point, I can pretty much see what is going on here. I don't know if what it says at Wikipediocracy is true or not, but I'd speculate that the odds are greater than 50% that it more or less is true. What neither Black Kite nor anyone else has been able to provide are diffs of Tutelary actually adding BLP-violating material to mainspace pages. So, for the sake of conversation, let's just suppose that Tutelary is, hypothetically, a horrible person in the real world. When people who are horrible people in the real world come to Misplaced Pages and act disruptively, we sanction them for the disruption. But if we were to ban every Misplaced Pages editor who is a messed-up person in real life, based on who they are in real life and not on something that can be documented by diffs here, well, there would be a lot fewer longtime editors here. And if we ban them for not being who they claim to be, well, I claim to be a fish, but I don't make disruptive edits. I do see some things that Tutelary has done that merit some kind of action, but I don't want to base it on WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not Black Kite, but for me, I'm not asking Tutelary be banned for being a horrible person in the real world, just on Misplaced Pages. I'm asking Tutelary be banned for writing "as a woman I say X", multiple times, in editing discussions where being a woman clearly gave cachet, when it seems Tutelary's not a woman ... (and was expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion). That's basic disruption of Misplaced Pages, and it's what Essjay controversy was about. Women have it tough enough on Misplaced Pages, that having "a guy" pretend to be one of them to disrupt discussion is pretty bad. --GRuban (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

^^^This. We want to remove the gender gap? Well, remove people playing juvenile impersonation games to undermine those efforts. Simple. Begoon  20:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

GRuban, you raise an issue that I care about very much. But if I parse what you said, you object to Tutelary gaining cachet based on what may well be a false persona, and to a lesser extent to Tutelary "expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion". I hope that it's obvious that we shouldn't ban editors for expressing unpopular opinions, with respect to that last part. As for the main part of your concern, I'm in favor of some editing restrictions in talk space, but I think that there is little likelihood of "cachet" going forward, and "cachet" is in the eye of the beholder anyway. Editors are free, going forward, to assign Tutelary's opinions the same value they might give to a male editor's opinions, instead of a female editor's opinions – and I hope that you can see the pitfalls of even treating those opinions differently in the first place. But, again, I do note that there are talk space problems, noting also that everything cited below by Cúchullain is also in talk space. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's like saying that someone who is known to use sock puppets to comment 5 times in a discussion under different names shouldn't be banned because from this point forward editors would be free to ignore 4 of them. We should and do ban people for Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry, and we did ban Essjay for pretending to be a professor of theology in arguments where that matters, and we should ban Tutelary for pretending to be a woman in arguments where that matters. Discussion is very valuable for us. I have nothing against someone expressing an unpopular opinion, (you'll notice I didn't weigh in on the bosom discussion!) but when that someone says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", and they're not, that's just as fundamental disruption as WP:SOCK: "attempts to deceive or mislead other editors, disrupt discussions, distort consensus". It's just the same if they wrote their opinion 5 times under different names, or if they claimed to be a professor of theology in a topic where that would matter. It's a ban-worthy offense. --GRuban (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that your analogy is flawed. A sock-er gains multiple !votes, and that's very disruptive. Someone who says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", is only disruptive to the extent that other editors accept as true that claim of extra value. I edit, for example, many neuroscience pages and it just so happens (so I claim!) that I've been a neuroscience professor in real life. But, even though I just said that here, I never say that in talk page discussions on those pages (except one time when I declined a request to comment because of a COI). That's because I don't care if some editor is a Nobel Laureate – if they make a bad edit, I'll revert it. And if a schoolchild makes a good edit, I'll support it. This isn't the same thing as Essjay, because Essjay parlayed the misrepresentation into advanced permissions. And, in fact, you haven't really proved that Tutelary isn't a trans woman. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

!votes? There was no !voting in the bosom photos discussion, there was merely a decision - should we have a photo of a bosom on the main page? And since arguably the main issue there was "is it offensive to women?" - the voice of someone who said they were a woman was easily worth 5 who said they weren't. Same for joining the Gender Gap project - the voice of an editor claiming to be a woman is easily more valuable in getting more women to join than any number of people who don't claim to be women. Sure, we haven't "proved" Tutelary isn't a trans woman; but we can hardly do a DNA analysis. We have proven she's a troll, who happily claims to be "a girl" to install RATs, then says she's "a guy". I think that's plenty indicative she's a similar troll who claims to be "a girl" (this time quoting her above!) to disrupt Misplaced Pages. See SlimVirgin's analogy of someone claiming to be black when joining a racial diversity project. --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the analogy is WP:ASPERSIONS. If it makes you feel any better about my position, I do support restrictions on Tutelary in talk space. Sincerely, I really do care about making Misplaced Pages a more welcoming place, but I think that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban (or a fallback to feminism and BLP ban) per Essjay controversy. Pretending to be someone who you are not for the benefit of winning debates and pushing an anti-feminist POV does not engender trust. Although oversighted, the evidence is fairly clear. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2014 (UTC) Per a request by Tutelary, I will edit my comment to say that I find this user highly untrustworthy due to off-site behavior. This behavior has manifested itself on Misplaced Pages as POV-pushing and disruption, some of which is plainly in this thread itself. Continued, stubborn insistence of innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is perplexing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Given the seriousness of BLP articles here on Misplaced Pages is there a way of matching up the IP address used on the other sites with the one used here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban or site ban for Tutelary. Here are all of the diffs that have been presented in this wall-of-text in which Tutelary has added BLP-violating material to Misplaced Pages articles: there aren't any. But I would support a BLP topic ban for Titanium Dragon, who has made enough such edits to justify the sanction. And, I would support an editing restriction on Tutelary, forbidding reverts (except self-reverts) in talk page space, because everything where Tutelary has edited badly really consists of that. And I think we should also caution some of the supporters in this discussion about WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban. Edits like this BLP violation are just symptoms of a much wider pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. Though individual edits and comments generally avoid violating the letter of BLP, discussions like these show a clear tendency toward inserting negative material about living people based on questionable or unusable sources. Even if we assume good faith about Tutelary's intentions (which is a big assumption at this point), they clearly lack the competence expected of editors dealing with highly sensitive BLP topics, and they take up a considerable amount of other editors' time and energy. It simply shouldn't be so difficult for Misplaced Pages to channel problematic editors away from topics where they can cause serious damage, whether it's towards topics where they can be productive (through a topic ban), or toward another hobby altogether. On another note, it's also time to look into sanctions for Titanium Dragon and editors who have been disrupting these articles recently.--Cúchullain /c 20:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that I shouldn't have the obligation nor the will to report another administrator's decisions up for review? Are you saying that in the terms of that I think wider input should be sought, I should not do a RfC? And to the fact that I 'lack competence', I do not, and that is plainly a personal attack. CIR is cited often when a user does not learn after an incessant amount of guidance, help, among other things, that is not the case here. The two that you cite are months and months old and appear to be only be useful in this discussion because there is shant a shred of recent evidence that I've been disruptive other than that misinterpreted diff. It's plainly obvious of that when you have to cite a RfC that was done when the dispute was still fresh, and a review of an administrator's authority and BLP policy. The diff of me restoring the talk page comment was actually a misinterpreted; I had the impression that NeinL had a problem with specific portions of the comment and that it was salvageable overall. I reverted only once. Indeed, in the next diff, you can see that I removed what I thought NeiNL thought was objectionable and then NeinL reverted again with further clarification and I did not revert again because it was evident that it was not salvageable. Tutelary (talk) 21:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Making a few problem edits and comments and then improving is one thing. Making the same problem edits again and again, over the course of months, and across multiple articles and forums, as you've been doing, is a serious problem. This is incompetence at best, if not outright intentional tendentious editing. In neither case should you come anywhere near a biography of a living person again.--Cúchullain /c 01:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: - Please note that we actually can go back two revs and see what the content in question was (why it wasn't revdeled, I can't say, but only that particular edit was); the content did not originate with Tutelary, and the content in question was an post about being censored and about how the main gaming journalism websites were biased in their own favor from a third party. The post was probably not the best thing in the universe, but the problem was that some folks had been reverting every attempt to discuss some of the issues involved, which have been, at this point, reliably sourced. Banning them over revving back to something someone else posted, especially given that their reason was "delete the BLP violating information and leave the rest", isn't something I would consider a bannable offense at all. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Restoring some's flagrant BLP violation by edit warring is equally as bad as making the violation yourself. Especially when it's part of a larger pattern of BLP issues such as I linked to. What you "consider" carries no weight given your own various BLP violations. Neither of you should be editing BLPs.--Cúchullain /c 13:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose site or topic ban for Tutelary; though i have the highest respect for Black Kite and others who have commented or opined here, it simply isn't reasonable, in my view, to say, "Oh, there's evidence, but i'm not showing it to you, just take my word for it". Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't, but if i cannot see it (and, no thank you, i don't care to go searching off-site for it), it isn't convincing to me. Cheers, Lindsay 22:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Er - it's been posted, deleted, and oversighted. What do you suggest, Lindsay? How shall we show it to you? --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict) Lindsay, we can't show you the evidence because every time someone presents any it gets oversighted away (Tutelary's adherence to policy improves remarkably when it suits Tutelary). The evidence that Tutelary has behaved inappropriately on BLPs is all above and in Tutelary's contributions. The evidence that Tutelary is an agenda-driven POV warier rather than a misguided newbie relies on analysis of their comments elsewhere on the web, and the evidence that they are not who they say they are was posted by third parties to Wikipediocracy. It's not difficult to find, but people who don't care to explain themselves to us mere mortals won't allow it to be posted on the wiki. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell, are you really doubting the oversight team here? Oversight is important to the wiki as personal information should just be left to be discovered via page history or even be left on the page itself. Oh, and I've heard of administrators who today only use their administrative actions to read revdeletions, make a post a month to keep their mop, and Oversight even protects against those snooping eyes as well. If you have a complaint, you can address it to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Audit_Subcommittee. But do read WP:OVERSIGHT, in which one of its purposes is to protect privacy. Tutelary (talk) 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very familiar with both those processes. You forget, I was elected as an administrator to protect this project form people like you long before you created your account. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • I've done a bunch of revision deleting on those pages, and I don't have oversight powers, so those revisions are still accessible by mere mortal administrators like ourselves. Gamaliel (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. So, the police have found that a person's behavior may be problematic, but the police is not the prosecutor and the prosecutor is not the judge. Based on the evidence so far, first make a strong case that Misplaced Pages has been edited in an inpropriate way, if this is found to be the case let's discuss with the editor to make sure this won't continue. If this fails, one can start to think about sanctions to protect Misplaced Pages from problematic editing by the editor. Count Iblis (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a community site ban based only on evidence provided on Wikipediocracy. Wikipediocracy should not be considered a reliable source. If there is non-public information available that User:Tutelary has in fact engaged in gender misrepresentation, then ArbCom is the appropriate authority to impose the ban. To repeat, I oppose any action based solely on information posted by an unreliable web site whose purpose is to attack the Misplaced Pages community. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Robert McClenon, the information is quite public. It consists in public posts, made by what is evidently the same individual, on hackforums.net and Reddit. There is no need to involve Wikipediocracy at all. Andreas JN466 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I agree that gender misrepresentation does deserve a ban. I just don't see that the evidence of gender misrepresentation is satisfactory. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - It appears that the main BLP issue has to do with Zoe Quinn. So many of the edits to Zoe Quinn have been either redacted or suppressed (a non-admin cannot tell the difference) that it is difficult to determine who the offenders were. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Robert, as one non-admin to another, you can see somewhere above where I went through all the edits at Zoe Quinn, and (at the page, not the talk page), none of the revdeled edits were by Tutelary, but quite a few were by Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban per SlimVirgin. Lightbreather (talk) 22:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for a number of reasons, but mostly per Tryptofish's analysis of the situation. First, temporarily ignore all of the accusations of Tutelary being a man and pretending to be a woman, and look at their contributions to Misplaced Pages. If another editor had the same set of contributions to Misplaced Pages, without any of the gender impersonation issues, would you be supporting a BLP ban or a site ban for them, based on those contributions alone? Probably not. I haven't seen diffs of anything so extreme that a ban is required. Second, the gender impersonation issues aren't provable, nor are they a valid reason to ban anyone, even if they were proven to be true. There is no Misplaced Pages policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender, therefore there is no policy-based rationale to block someone for it. It's certainly not something that I would do myself, nor would I encourage others to do it, but that doesn't mean that I need to force my beliefs/principles/values on other people. If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves. Finally, I oppose a ban based on off-wiki evidence that can't be posted on-wiki because the evidence itself violates Misplaced Pages policies. Such a ban would be a reward to those individuals who spend their time scouring the internet to expose the personal information and identity of Misplaced Pages editors with whom they disagree, and it would only encourage them to continue doxing other editors (maybe it'll be you next time). Doxing someone can be potentially traumatic and can potentially affect the target’s life, their family, and damage their livelihood. It should not be tolerated on- or off-wiki, and it cannot be rewarded. Exposing someone’s private information is an extremely disproportionate reaction to the transgressions that Tutelary is accused of. I believe that Tutelary has gone through enough, and I believe that this event is likely more than enough to cause Tutelary to behave in an appropriate manner, should they choose to continue editing here. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 23:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  "There is no Misplaced Pages policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves." Misplaced Pages "is an entertainment, an annoyance, a distraction, a put-on, a reading experience, a performance, a series of ironies, an inversion that you do or do not get. At times you might read excerpts from these texts in the news and you might take them—at your own peril—at surface value. Which any college English freshman would warn you not to do. And which any graduate student in literature would laugh at you for doing. Ever onward, mate. Andreas JN466 00:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

  I had never seen that before, but it is quite apt and I enjoyed it immensely. "Misplaced Pages is not reality and nothing happening on Misplaced Pages—or 'behind the scenes at Misplaced Pages'—is real. So get the fuck over it." Thanks ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 14:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm glad it amuses you, Scotty--but what Qworty is saying, of course, is that we should wipe our asses with the BLP policy. "Not real": we're talking about someone who for years abused Misplaced Pages to settle old scores. Ask those people how not real it was. I would hope that an administrator here would take these matters a bit more seriously, since BLP violations, unlike what that "writer" had to tell us on his soapboxy userpage, are not victimless crimes. Andreas, your point is well taken. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2014‎ (UTC)

• Support siteban pr Jayen466 and SlimVirgin, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - have not seen demonstration of any strong problems with editing by Tutelary. Claiming real life credentials for something that the users are not including gender, occupation, degrees, race, ethnicity, age, residence, etc. is wrong but it is hardly a bannable offence (maybe deserves a warning). Wiki rules are specifically designed to avoid reliance on editor's claims and the case may be a good reminder for this. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• I don't know if I'm ready to vote for a ban on anything--but I find Tutelary's editing incredibly problematic. Right now I really doubt their competence, and this after teasing out a couple of diffs on Cunt and some chatter on the talkpage, including quite insulting remarks and an attempt to evade--Gobonobo knows what I'm talking about. Drmies (talk) 04:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see a competence issue there. That thread is a perfect example of what Tutelary and Tutelary's mates have been doing with considerable success at the gender gap task force: transparently specious "argument" and unfounded opposition to frustrate and demoralise genuine editors. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose especially per Count Iblis's comment below, and those by Alex Bakharev, Tryptofish, Robert McClenon, and Scotty Wong above. Some folks here clearly wish to silence (via bans/blocks) or WP:Censor editors with whom they strongly disagree (the underlying motivation here). Some are willing to blatantly ignore WP policies to achieve that end. That intolerance of intellectual diversity, and efforts to curb free and open discussion, reveals WP:NOTHERE. This is not what WP is about. WP has never been about who someone is, it is about what they have contributed to the project. Memills (talk) 03:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean your kind of "intellectual diversity" and the editing that got you topic banned indefinitely from all men's rights related pages and discussions? Haven't you been arguing that those your consider "gender feminists" and supposedly "feminist" sources should be excluded as RS? Tutelary defended your contributions in that topic area like your problematic BLP edits in Michael Kimmel's BLP where you kept adding negative commentary to the page based on an opinion piece in an unreliable men's rights journal. Don't get me started on the role Tutelary played in enabling disruptive, POV driven editors in the men's rights topic area. By the way, please let me know when that ArbCom case you and Tutelary discussed is on the way. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As usual, it is stunning to watch you misrepresent facts, eschew accuracy, and lob ad hominems in an agenda to silence editors that challenge your POV. Exemplifies the very point. And, it is not lost on the editors here who ask: "Where are the diffs? They're aren't any." Memills (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I fail to see any evidence of disruption here on WP, where are the DIFFS supporting a similar request? Unconvinced there is a problem, sorry. And banning on the basis of a wikipediocracy article investigating the off-wiki identity of an editor would be a terrible precedent. Cavarrone 13:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Are you crazy? No. Strongest possible oppose. I don't see a single diff of any disruption. We're going to start banning people for someone at wikipediocracy posting something about her? Cheers, Thanks, L235-Talk Ping when replying 14:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The difs in question are oversighted on Quinns page --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Incredibly strong oppose to this discussion as if let's say that she DID pretend to be female, that shouldn't be even able to be used to gain any sort of advantage in a content dispute or any dispute. If I said "As a woman I think my opinions are more important", I don't get how that even boosts my hypothetical actual position on anything. You can't BAN people based on Wikipediocracy postings! IT'S A BLOG! If a blog isn't a reliable source for articles, how is it a reliable source for a site ban? You can't ban people based on off-wiki issues! The points in question is "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" (claimed by an UNRELIABLE source), "off-wiki activities", and "BLP disputes". Correct me if I'm wrong, but "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" can't be in any way, shape, or form, a BANNABLE offence at this time! Who determines that he's a woman? A blog on the internet? Or Tutelary herself? Plus, the arguments advanced in favour of using this as a bannable offence state that she used her position as a woman to get advantages in discussions. How is that possible? The fact that you are a woman shouldn't have any bearing on any discussion, so the point is moot, unless somebody else took that into account in closing discussions, in which it is that person's fault. Off-wiki activities can't have a bearing on your contributions, as you should only be judged in a discussion by whether your position is backed up with reliable sources. She could be a militant feminist advancing the killing of all men off-wiki and I'd be fine with her complying with all policies and being consensus forming in discussions. The so-called "BLP disputes" are disputed themselves, by other editors on this page. The only way there could possible be grounds for a ban is in the area of BLP disputes. That should be the discussion we're having, and according to the strongest arguments, Tutelary is in the right. Other people just call her a misogynist and expect that to win on the sheer number of !support votes. Too bad that Misplaced Pages isn't a vote. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess if Tutelary got banned for his involvement with misogynistic Reddit discussions, you might be the next one looking at a ban. Oh, no, I guess not because you deleted your account last week, didn't you? Did you think no one would notice? Kaletony (talk) 00:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose both site and BLP ban at this time, mostly per Tryptofish. We should not be using what may or may not have happened on other sites as fodder for bans here. I.e., If an editor is a good candidate for a ban, then the appropriate evidence must come from Misplaced Pages diffs. I also suggest that this thread be closed before it wastes anymore of the community's resources. (This has been going back and forth for more than five days now, and no clear consensus will emerge from this thread) Rationalobserver (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• My problem is with what Tutelary has been doing on this site. But I agree, there isn't a concise, coherent and persuasive argument supporting that position in this page - It's there if you follow the right links, I suppose. But I've got promises to keep and don't have time for whak-a-mole right now. So, unless something comes out of left field in the next day or so, I'll support closing this as unresolved. (And maybe setting up a broad RfC on anti-women behaviour here. But later.)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, by the way. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Take it to Arbcom As it appears there is "private information" (in the Misplaced Pages sense) and there appears to be more than one off-site kefluffle going that maybe further being pursued on wikipedia, Arbcom is the place to sort this out. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Protonk. On the Internet, nobody knows that you're a dog, or a male. Any statement concerning themselves by anonymous editors should be taken with a grain of salt. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

* Support site ban - Tutelary's obvious dissembling should make it clear to anyone with a clue that he has been playing you all along. If I were him, I would be more concerned by the very real prospect of the police knocking on his door than with continuing this charade on Misplaced Pages. Kaletony (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• lol: there's an old interwebs adage: "don't feed the trolls". If you don't know who's feeding the trolls in this situation, it's probably you ;-). --SB_Johnny | ✌ 01:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban , else BLP topic ban. (revised - nah, site ban it should be) More than justified. Volunteer Marek  07:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As @Mr. Stradivarius: and @Tryptofish: noted above, none of the article space revdels were by Tutelary. Of my own, as Strad noted, they weren't made in bad faith, were indeed sourced (though some folks weren't happy with some of the sources - we had a discussion about them on the talk page, as was recommended by one of the ANIs about the article), and were written "mostly" neutrally (I did my best, but no one is perfect :P I thought it was alright. I have a copy of it still, if anyone is interested, though I'm not sure how to link to stuff like that easily). It wasn't, as noted, a hit piece on Zoe Quinn, but an overview of what was going on; the central issue is more or less that Zoe's ex outed her as being involved with several people involved in the gaming industry, and all of them got accused of being corrupt and promoting each other and attacking each others' enemies by very angry gamers. At this point, we have far better sources thanks to much better coverage.

I can't speak for all the revdels on the talk page, but a previous ANI noted that they probably were a little bit overboard and probably didn't all need to happen. It is water under the bridge at this point, though, and the concerns were over BLP issues which I think have since been satisfied via discussion on the talk page once some folks (NOT the admins) stopped deleting all attempts at discussion. And I'm sure at least some of the revdels were people being angry on the talk page; given Tutelary's general behavior, though, if they restored any of those (and given the ones that I have seen restored, weren't exceptionally bad, and frankly I see worse every day elsewhere on the encyclopedia) I'm not really worried about it. There were concerns about censorship of the talk page by several folks, and eventually that quieted down after the ANI agreed that discussing these things wasn't a BLP vio because of all the sourcing.

As for the rest of it - Tutelary hasn't seemed overly hostile, and has been quite civil compared to many of the other people who have been involved in editing that article. I don't care what gender they are and have actually been sent stuff which pretty much confirms their identification via Twitter (and then had to explain to said person why, exactly, posting that information was a bad idea, because some folks don't understand the concept of "the problem was the violation of privacy, and that is going to further violate their privacy"). I think they've been trying to improve Misplaced Pages. I haven't seen evidence of any poor behavior ON Misplaced Pages. If someone has evidence of actual poor behavior, I'm more than happy to look at it, but I'm not seeing anything all that exciting. Certainly nothing warranting a ban. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Tutelary has demonstrated that he/she is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to enact an anti-feminist agenda that includes trolling the editors at the gender gap task force and making tendentious edits to BLPs and women-related topics. Tutelary's actions fit the mold of a broader campaign of disruptive editing waged by MRAs that reddit, A Voice for Men, 4chan, and the like send our way. Women editors and efforts to address the gender gap are just targets for 'lulz'. This noticeboard's ongoing inability to do anything about it or take action against the editors who engage in this behavior is discouraging. gobonobo 14:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - +1,000 btc to Gobonobo for being blunt. The fact that too many admins and editors here are naive enough to fall for the 'lulz' and disruption is beyond discouraging. Tutelary should have been indeffed as soon as the information became known. Any editor that has any clue at all can see what's going on here. It's a pity that we continue to allow this silliness to escalate, like fools. Just the disruption and BLP violations can be pointed to for the admins and editors who don't know what 4chan is. Sigh...... Dave Dial (talk) 15:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question to editors who support a site ban or topic ban: I think that you can see that opinions in this discussion are divided, and it is becoming unlikely that such bans will get consensus (unless new evidence comes out of the sockpuppet investigation). I earlier proposed an editing restriction in which Tutelary would be restricted against making reverts (other than self-reverts) in talk space. If you look closely, all of Tutelary's edits that have come under the greatest concern are reverts of that sort. If the bans cannot be agreed to, would you find the editing restriction helpful, or would you consider it inadequate? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think admins would regret not making the decision for at least a topic ban, it's not like Quinn's harassers have been receiving good press and Misplaced Pages already has a pretty bad reputation for being misogynistic. It was Tutelary who added the information about the incident to the article against consensus to wait, with plenty of "allegedly"'s for the harassment she received but none for her supposed "sex for coverage". I don't think some people here realise how serious it is to add information about this to a WP:BLP --5.81.51.98 (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Admins block, but the community bans. Plenty of us understand how serious BLP is, but we don't ban people because of outside press concerns. I've been asking and asking for diffs of Tutelary adding BLP-violating material to the page (not the talk page), and I'm still waiting. But there clearly are problematic reverts on talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

BLP covers certain talk page edits. It's not "anything goes" just because it's not in article space.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I never said "anything goes" – and that's why I'm proposing an editing restriction. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. It has been ridiculous to see the Misplaced Pages gang up on a doxxing victim like this. If you're worried about a misogynistic reputation, then I suggest not going on witchhunts against underage female editors. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• • Pshhh. What does it matter? If this goes by without admin action, it just shows how clueless admins are. So why would anyone who does have a clue care about more bureaucratic bullshit? Dave Dial (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: no diffs have been provided that clearly show our blocking policy's definition of disruption. As far as misrepresenting one's identity goes, if that were blockable then a huge portion of our users should be banned. By stating that misrepresenting one's identity is a bannable offense, you will be rewarding people for doxxing wiki editors they don't like in order to get them banned. I am sure there are large numbers of editors who misaffiliate their sex, race, qualifications, probably even people in this thread, and I don't want to see witchhunts becoming standard procedures. As always wikipedia should focus on the edit's, and the arguments of editors, and not on their stated qualifications. This isn't Citizendium.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment So, all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed, and now some people are basing oppose !votes on the idea that no refs were provided? People seem to be opposing based on basic ignorance of the situation in more recent comments. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We can still see that diffs have been revedeled (not the same as suppressed/oversighted), and none of them in mainspace have been by Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there a "non-mainspace" exemption for problematic BLP edits? If they're using the site to spread damaging claims about BLP subjects, it doesn't matter where they do it, talk page, noticeboard, wikiproject, whatever.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

In such cases people can sometimes cross the line due to heated discussions, the proper way to put a stop to that is by first issueing a warning that BLP must be respected also outside the editing of articles. In principle, we are here to help editors stick to the rules we have here and if that doesn't work within the margins of errors we can tolerate, we need to impose restrictions. If people say that they can already tell that this editor is up to no good, then we don't need to preemptively act on that assessment, the outcome of the normal process to deal with editors who misbehave and continue to do so despite warmings will yield the same outcome anyway. So, no need to build a Guantanamo Bay detention facility, the regular justice system is good enough. Count Iblis (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This looks like it's post-warnings, post-admin-block. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

"all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed,"

I have no idea if a diff is egregious without seeing it. I don't trust the judgement of a site where saying things like "So-and-so has been subjected to misogynist harassment" qualifies as "an egregious BLP violation"...AioftheStorm (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support site-ban. Tutelary and I have been debating about Skyler Page, where ironically he has been removing information about Page's sexual assault accusations. It seems a little strange that he took the the total opposite side on this debate then he did with Zoe Quinn. What bothers me is not that he disagreed with me, but the way he went about it. I reverted the page twice in 24 hours and said that it was the last time I will revert it. He reverts it 3 times and then has the nerve to warn me for edit warring. I am not saying that I wasn't edit warring, but he was just as guilty of edit warring as me, if not more guilty. I only reverted it twice and said I was stopping there while he reverted it three times. Also he bought up discussions he claimed showed that there was consensus to not include the accusations on Skyler Page; however both discussions were about not including it on Clarence (2014 TV series) and one of them only involved him and one other user. Overall, this seems to be a case of WP:NOTHERE. JDDJS (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

JDDJS, while I don't think the material in question should be added to Skylar Page, it is indeed distressing to see Tutelary fighting so hard to keep it out, considering his devotion to adding much more poorly supported negative material into articles of women.--Cúchullain /c 12:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As someone who was active at the Zoe Quinn article during the time that most of the revision-deletion happened, I didn't find Tutelary to be disruptive. I may not have agreed with their opinion, but for the most part they were good about not violating the BLP policy. The only two lapses (admin-only links) were restorations of comments by others on the talk page. I would say that these restorations were problematic, but not problematic enough that they couldn't be addressed by discussion.

  As for other evidence, the revert at Jimbo's talk page was maybe not in very good taste, but it wasn't a BLP violation, and I don't think it violated the talk page guidelines either. Above, Cuchullain claims that Tutelary shows a pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. I think that the links that Cuchullain uses to back that statement up () show that Tutelary has, in the past, advocated for inserting such material. However, I don't see any actual insertion of problematic material in article space, and in my recent interactions with Tutelary on the Zoe Quinn page they have been a better judge of what constitutes a source acceptable for a BLP than is evident in those earlier discussions.

  Based on the evidence I have linked to in this post, I think that site-banning or topic-banning Tutelary would be an overreaction. I have more sympathy for Tryptofish's proposed talk-page restriction, but I personally doubt that it is necessary. Just the fact that this discussion has occurred will likely make Tutelary be more careful about talk page reverts in the future.

  Now, of course, there is off-wiki evidence involved in this incident as well, but we aren't well-equipped to deal with that kind of evidence here on ANI. The outing policy prevents us from linking much of the evidence directly or from discussing it in detail, so it can never be all that clear what the evidence is that we are talking about. And when we can't be sure that we are all on the same page about what is supposed to have happened, it's hard to say that we can find a meaningful consensus about it. If off-wiki evidence is going to be taken into account, it would be much better to bring this to ArbCom, as they have procedures for dealing with material that could violate people's privacy. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that that's an excellent analysis of the situation. I'm inclined to be persuaded that my suggestion of an editing restriction is not necessary, especially since the editors who are (metaphorically, not literally) calling for Tutelary's head on a plate are making it clear that they will settle for either the head, or nothing less. At this time, a checkuser has indicated that the SPI investigation is going to take a while, and I'm still keeping an open mind in case the results might force a reevaluation. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Concern. Tutelary's behavior as I've seen it and others have described it has been questionable and I figured it was a matter of time before that alone resulted in a ban, so I did not think it necessary to comment. However, in the last day or so I've had a growing concern about the larger issue of their allegedly being a minor who works on sexual topic articles and discusses sex online with adults. According to a 2011 Village Pump discussion - Wikiproject Pornography and Minors: Proposals and Discussion - that sort of thing is against Florida law, and maybe more states (and countries) by now.

It's one thing to not know someone is a minor. It's another to have a strong allegation that someone is a minor being widely discussed. Individuals, no matter how unknowing, who later engage in discussions about sex with that minor might be put in jeopardy. Allowing that alleged minor to post really starts setting Misplaced Pages up for federal/police surveillance and a federal/police sting. (Consider all those ambitious prosecutors out for big head line busts.) And then one has to deal with the snitches from on or off Misplaced Pages who might be looking for evidence of such 'crime'. Just something to think about. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 11:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• • You are using a failed proposal to disallow minors of editing pages related to the Pornography project, as a concern about someone discussing about sex. Please don't mix the two concepts. It is not illegal to have a discussion with minors about sex. Please also be careful in your wording, things like "engage in discussions about sex with that minor" have a completely different possible meaning than what I hope you are trying to say. But in any case, you may be concerned as much as you like, but please don't use unrelated (and failed) proposals to support your concern. Fram (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Tell that to a backwoods Florida grand jury... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Next time you believe something violates Florida law, don't pretend that your believe is something supported by a Village Pump discussion. Combining scare-mongering and false arguments to authority are not a good recipe to come across as a genuinely concerned editor. Fram (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Geez, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? Frankly, I have no idea when discussions of sex with a minor become obscenity or child abuse or child pornography in the law of what state or the federal government. And I bet a lot of others don't either. Obscenity#Child_pornography has a definition sufficiently broad to make one wonder. Child_pornography#Sexting might be broad enough to include words and not just images. Maybe this is an area that needs more coverage on Misplaced Pages and in some relevant Misplaced Pages guidelines. I bet a few people here have to think back to interchanges they had with Tutelary that might be questionable in some government officials eyes. Maybe I even do. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I did find Online predator had a bit more. "Chat rooms, instant messaging, Internet forums, social networking sites, cell phones, and even video game consoles have all attracted online predators." So I guess the issue would be proving one was not an online predator looking to have sexual discussions with a person known to be a minor who discusses sexual content on Misplaced Pages. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your replies indicate that on the contrary, I wasn't harsh enough by far. Your links to "child pornography" and "sexting" indicate that you really have no idea what you are talking about here (or that you do know and are trolling). It would be in your own best interest if you withdrew and dropped this whole line of reasoning completely. Fram (talk) 13:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I freely admit ignorance of the issue. Feel free to tell me and anyone else who might be confused the best place on Misplaced Pages to get guidance. WP:Editor assistance? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Everywhere but a topic ban discussion on an individual editor for unrelated reasons. You can try WP:VPP. Considering that the proposal you linked to, which was much more focused than sexuality in general, was soundly rejected by the community, I don't think you will get much support, certainly not when you continue to mix "discussing an article about sexuality" where minors may be joining the discussion, with "child pornography", "sexting", and "online predators". If you have any evidence (or strong indications) of actual online predating happening, you can best take the advice you may find in Misplaced Pages:Child protection. Fram (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Tryptofish. Whatever Tutelary is in real life, or whatever political or social opinion he/she holds is irrelevant. I have not seen any evidence presented of bad edits which warrant such a sanction. I have read the Essjay controversy page and that does not seem to apply here, by a long shot. Nobody has accused the editor of lying their way to a paid position. And of course, the use of off-site material to convict people here is troublesome. In any case, I am sure a bunch of people will be watching Tutelary's edits like a hawk from now on. Kingsindian (talk) 15:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many people here really cared about the paid position bit, particularly since it wasn't even WMF or in any way wikipedia related.

The concern here on wikipedia, was IMO (and also how I read the article) primarily that editor concerned used their fictitious claims to support their editing here. While many also felt the claims shouldn't have had an influence, this doesn't negate the fact they may have, and that the person concerned appeared be using them with that intention. That obviously has a serious effect on wikipedia.

There were also some concerns about lying to a reporter. That also affects wikipedia somewhat since it reflects badly on wikipedia and wikipedians, and means people may be reluctant to trust wikipedians; and of course we too may have wrong info if we are relying on reliable sources based on such lies.

The second one obviously doesn't apply here, but the first one does. (To be clear, as I emphasised below I'm not saying the claims are fictitious since these relate to identity issues so are much less clear cut. However I find identifying in a certain way you wouldn't otherwise solely for the purpose of advancing one's position equally troubling.)

Nil Einne (talk) 16:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I am agnostic on the underlying issue, but I wanted to point out that if this person is banned, we're setting a precedent applicable to other situations. In the discussions on COI guidelines and the new Terms of Use on paid editing it is often pointed out that editors cannot engage in precisely this kind of sleuthing to ferret out COI. If this Tutelary is banned, we would be saying that it is OK to ban a person based on sleuthing, which implies that it is OK to identify paid editors and COI editors through similar methodology. Are you sure you want to do that? Coretheapple (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment My feelings are nearly the same as GRuban. In particular, I would emphasise that I don't care how Tutelary identifies, nor do I say there's anything wrong with them identifying in one place in one manner and identifying in another place in another manner. The problem begins when it appears their identification is intended solely to game the system rather than for other reasons (e.g. genuinely feel that way, to protect their privacy) and that when this combined with all the other evidence both here and elsewhere suggests they're not here to build an encyclopaedia.

  Oh and while I don't think we should generally penalise people for stuff they do elsewhere, in this particular case there IMO needs to be consideration of the allegations suggesting misusing others computers. While it may be difficult to know if these are simply idle boasts, if they are true this has implications for us due to the risk the same may be tried here.

  However while I personally support a site-ban or any other sanctions proposed, I'm not willing to do so here because I'm uncomfortable sanctioning an editor based on material (no matter how strong) that we cannot discuss, and they would have to allow open discussion to repond to. For this reason, I feel the case needs to go to arbcom. As much as I dislike wikipediocracy and such doxing, it's difficult to ignore the implications I raised earlier in a case as significant as this.

  Nil Einne (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Where I differ from you is that I don't believe that an inquiry of this kind conducted behind closed doors as necessarily superior to one that is conducted in the open. If we don't allow doxing, how is it permissible to utilize the fruits of doxing that has taken place outside of Misplaced Pages? I've seen situations in which people have attempted such sleuthing for COI-identification purposes and been threatened with blocking. Yet here we have the target being considered for banning. Could the COI discussion have been moved off-wiki for identification purposes, and then back on-wiki to take steps against he editor in question? There needs to be a consistent policy on dealing with off-wiki doxing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

While I appreciate there are connections, I'm personally not that interested in the COI issue. Frankly, I've never entirely agreed with the far harder line against COI we're taking recently (you must disclose in certain circumstances) and basically stopped following the discussion when it became clear that's where it was headed.

Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's useful to get in to long arguments about whether open or closed discussion is superior. The point is that there are many reasons why a person may not want such open discussions about their personal details. All the evidence suggests Tutelary does not wish for such open discussion in this case. Since we can't discuss this evidence without talking in depth about what it says, and preferably linking to it, and since Tutelary can't reasonably respond without permitting people to do so, an arbcom case would be better here.

As I mentioned, I'm not sure what's going on in the COI space but I presume even there it's recognised that we can't resonably ignore information suggesting a serious problem, no matter our disgust as the process used. In some cases, even if the information was obtained illicitly (e.g. by hacking), if it's serious enough it can't resonably be ignored (as happens in real life). I would also hope there is a recognition of a difference between public doxing, which unfortunately happened here; and privately gathering information which is sent to arbcom where it can then be considered with the person given the opportunity to respond without anyone other than arbcom knowing of it come what may. (As mentioned, the person could chose for this to be a public discussion if they desire, with all the implications thereof. I do recognise arbcom hasn't always been a safe pair of hands with info in the past which is unfortunate, so people may consider that.)

While I'm not saying we should encourage such behaviour, I find it unresonable to suggest people are forbidden from searching for info on a person. It's surely something people do all the time both for editors here, and for others in life. I've been done it on occasion for years, for contributors I admire, contributors I have disagreements with and even contributors I myself have little direct experience with. I usually have sympathy when I find a wikipedicracy thread or encyclopediadramatica or whatever, although sometimes it does seem the person made silly decisions even if this doesn't justify what happened.

Either way, I don't think you'll get consensus that I'm wrong or contributing to the problem by doing these searches for personal interest. And I've never intended to use this information for anything and AFAIK have never done so. However if I did happen to find information suggesting a serious issue from a simple search, I would probably have sent it to arbcom and I'm not going to say (and doubt you'll get consensus) that would be wrong.

In a case where a person needs to do much more careful searching and analysis, like I'm pretty sure was needed for the Tutelary case, I do agree it's concerning, even if the info is only going to be sent to arbcom. But the point is I don't think there's a clear boundary between a simple search for personal interest and an intrusive investigation.

Nil Einne (talk) 12:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussions concerning COI policy/paid editing have fizzled out, but when they were active there was much discussion over "sleuthing" of all kinds to uncover COI and a general consensus that it was abhorrent. In fact it was trotted out by paid editing apologists as a reason to not strengthen COI rules (that there would be the very kind of sleuthing we're seeing here). Re offsite sleuthing to uncover COI, I can recall one specific case that came up on one of the noticeboards and backfired badly on the person bringing it. Coretheapple (talk) 13:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but as I mentioned, I'm not, and I'm not sure anyone here is encouraging sleuthing to uncover anything anyway. I'm more interested in what we do when information was discovered, perhaps fairly innocently, perhaps not. As I've mentioned, this is a complicated issue but considering the possibilities, I don't think it's resonable to suggest any off-site search which happens to find something, regardless of the reasons for the search (whether it was a fairly innocent search or it was sleuthing) and how it was handled after this info was discovered, is abhorent. Actually I think we already recognise this to some extent. If someone has posted a link to their website onwiki and it still exists & they haven't removed the info, it's not generally considered outing for someone else to repost it. So no one is likely to sanction an editor for outing for posting the website, even if the editor wasn't even aware it was posted before. They may be reprimanded depending on the case and there could also be sanctions for harassment etc, again depending on the case. There isn't even likely to be any reprimand if the person knew it was posted before, but only found this out after the search. (Again harassment and other issues could still come in to play depending on how the website is used.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban - the editor has done nothing to justify a ban. Instead, blocks or final warnings should be issued to transphobic editors who are defending the WP:OUTING of a minor, and are harassing the said minor by dismissing her WP:IDENTITY. --Joshua Issac (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that Tutelary is a minor? Do you imply that Tutelary is trans and that everyone who supports a topic/site ban is "transphobic"? What evidence do you have? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed if that is the claim I take great offence. While I didn't support a ban here, I did say I personally supported a ban. Yet I went to great pains in my answer precisely to avoid any such implication. Even for those who didn't, it's likely some share similar sentiments they just didn't want such a wordy comment. Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. In addition to my concerns over doxing, I don't see sufficient basis for banning this person for life. Editors that engage in this kind of misconduct should get an opportunity to reform. I don't like the way this originated and I don't like the way people are piling on here. Coretheapple (talk) 18:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

But who's proposing a ban for life? Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. I don't claim to understand the Quinn story, but if you want somebody banned you should have to come out with clear diffs indicating misbehavior here, not outing/opposition research. I have philosophical problems with the main charges here. To begin with, we have the peculiar situation where many editors are absolutely adamant about rejecting transphobic attitudes that criticize people who pretend to be a different sex by clothing or partial cosmetic surgery (indeed, it is objectionable even to say they are pretending) yet we are supposed to join a veritable lynch-mob when an editor is caught pretending to be another sex through the filter of online conversation. Riddle me that and come back. I also object to what seems like a suggestion by SlimVirgin and others that feminists ought to object to photos of breasts. I think feminists should be free to take on a variety of political positions, especially those compatible with the activities of FEMEN and those of activists in New York and Canada who have won their right to dress (and undress) in public the same way men do. My position on cyberbullying is that the only plausible way to oppose it is to give those subjected to it some extra latitude, bearing in mind that they are under a microscope so we are hearing more than the usual representation of misdeeds. I have seen something like this happen before with Fae, a far better editor subjected to far worse behavior by bullies, and Misplaced Pages badly failed him; I hope this time we can set a precedent to do better. Wnt (talk) 21:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose If a user is violating BLP, and can't be taught the error of their ways, they will be subject to a topic ban or other sanctions. Off-wiki speculations about an editor and so forth cannot legitimately form the basis of on-wiki sanctions, relating to disruptive editing. Either the editor is being disruptive or not - the rest is hot air. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC).
  

It should be noted

That the people voting for 'support' have -not- substantiated their claims of my apparently disruptive behavior nor other allegations. Yet they keep mentioning it as if something -did- happen. Yes, I got doxxed, and I got a less than pleasant response, some of the people commenting here on this very noticeboard even implicating that I deserved it. The apparent 'disruptive' behavior (along with gross doxxing) was pointed out at Wikipediocracy...with exactly no diffs at all. The only thing that came close was the link to my user activity, which cites that my highly edited pages are evidence of 'dispruptive' editing. Again, there are no diffs or other on site evidence that points to such. Additionally, the people commenting here have not substantiated their claims either, indeed, Black Kite even stated Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere which implies that he/she knows there's no onsite proof that I've been disruptive. Tutelary (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't be disingenuous. You'd be whining even harder if somebody posted the evidence on the wiki, and then we'd have to oversight it all and waste even more of everyone's time. If I was in your position right now, I'd go and write a beautiful, properly sourced, neutral article that had absolutely nothing to do with Zoe Quinn/GamerGate to prove that I could be trusted to edit in keeping with the values of this project. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

But that's not what's happening here. You !voted to support the topic BLP ban without a single shred of a diff or evidence on wiki that I've been disruptive. Are you basing your !vote on Wikipediocracy's post where they freakin' doxxed me? And I really wish I could, my heart has been on pace for a couple days now and my blood pressure has spiked, I've been crying and getting emotional as of late and it's plainly obvious that it's Misplaced Pages that's causing it; even exacerbated by you attributing my concerns to just 'whining', and probably a violation of WP:CIVIL. Tutelary (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be a lesson learned; do not wage campaigns against BLP subjects via a pseudonymous Misplaced Pages account, or else external forces may act to strip that pseudonymity away. Tarc (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You've been exposed, elsewhere, for the liar and misogynist that you are. You just don't belong here. Sorry if that doesn't fit neatly enough into the wikirules for you. As for: "Uh, it is all explained offwiki. What happens offwiki stays offwiki." No. Not in Qworty's case. Not in yours. Why don't you just try to preserve a shred of dignity and go away. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Please be civil. WP:UNCIVIL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be hilarious were it not so embarrassing that we're entertaining a ban proposal on the basis of evidence which, if placed on wiki, would be oversighted away. Can someone just remove the fig leaf and post the article here? Otherwise I'm forced to ask (as a good citizen) what evidence do we have that Tutelary has misrepresented their identity? Obvious you know what the evidence is and I know what the evidence is, but how on earth am I to take a ban proposal seriously where posting the incipient piece of evidence would lead me to have my contributions oversighted or my account blocked? Protonk (talk) 13:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that is a shortcoming in the Misplaced Pages bureaucracy...similar to how identifying conflict-of-interest editors can rub against outing concerns...but one that shouldn't prevent the project from doing the right thing if need be. "I can't link it here, therefore I cannot consider it" is hardly a compelling defense. Tarc (talk) 13:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It just makes the whole thing asinine. To be clear, I think someone should cowboy up and actually link the piece so we're not just salaciously suggesting that editors google correctly to find a blog that most of the participants in the discussion have already read. And I think the nature of the topic can lead us to forget just how fucking malicious the article actually is. Read the Excrement will happen section and tell me that's anything besides shitting on someone for not leading an appropriate public life. Questions about Tutelary aside (and I think there's an unfortunate parallel to the specious claims from assholes about how "Gamergate is just about journalistic integrity" to our claim that we're all just so worried that Tutelary passed as a woman), there's no defence for that shit. None. And we shouldn't be supporting it here. That's not some bureaucratic inconvenience, it's an expectation that you should be able to write articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously without some shitheel telling everyone your name, location and how much you like MLP fan fiction. As I mentioned above, I was outed because like TD I wasn't careful with the use of "protonk" between disparate forums and because WR didn't like my opinions about the BLP policy. We can reassure ourselves that there's a stronger "journalistic" imperative at work than merely pissing off some person with time on their hands and an axe to grind about wikipedia, but we're not making a strong case for that by laundering those claims in service of a site ban. Protonk (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

First, anyone that knows how to search on the interwebs can find the pages in question. One would think in order to be a prolific Misplaced Pages editor, searching the internet is 2nd nature. Second, we should have a policy based on cases like this, and the many that have came before it. Trolling or pretending to be someone you're not is not new on the webs. BBS boards and Usenet were/are full of that sort crap. Editors should ask themselves if they want that type of behavior to become prolific on this project, without any consequences, because of some circular reasoning about rules. Lastly, of course the editor should be topic banned at the very least, and probably site banned. I would like to see better rules on this project in dealing with this type of situation, no matter who the editor is. But until we do, I guess ad hoc reasoning and common sense should overrule circular reasoning and being forced to look the other way because of ....tongue in cheek pointing to rules. We aren't stupid, are we? Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the thing is, I think the notion of "writing articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously" is getting to be a bit of an outmoded ideal. For a lot of years that has shield a lot of nefarious deeds in this project. Let's put it this way; if a journalist at a reliable source pens a piece on GamerGate or Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesian, that piece has a byline. An actual person has attached an actual identity to their words, and if there is something factually wrong or controversial or anything, Quinn et al can at least point to that journalist and say "hey, that's not right" and offer a rebuttal to a living, identifiable person. What recourse does Zoe Quinn have when someone known only as "Tutelary" accuses her of infidelity and ethics violations? Or "Titanium Dragon", whose contributions to the Quinn article were so egregious that dozens of his edits had to be oversighted. IMO, people like these two speak as they do about others because they do so under a fake name, just a handle on an internet forum. Strip that away, and have them post something that can be traced back to them personally, by name, just like any media journalist, and you may find that they will choose their words with a bit more care. I'm sorry that you yourself got doxxed by the old WR, but that crew, while there is some overlap with WO, was a very different and very nasty beast that attacked people they simply didn't like. WO is more of a vigilante, an Oliver Queen of the Wiki-sphere. The "Excrement" sub-section was a bit of a low-blow, but y'know, when adults are obsessed with tv shows written for 10yr-old girls, I really don't have a lot of sympathy. Being a teased Brony isn't a civil rights issue. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About using information from other sites: there have been precedents with the Arbcom I believe, with the Phil Sandifer situation, and with the Ironholds and Keifer Wolfowitz case, that off-wiki evidence could be considered in Arbcom cases, but anything with identifying information had to be presented by email. I also seem to remember some kind of policy, which I can't seem to find at the moment, that prohibits posting something that can damage someone's computer. If someone is claiming off-wiki that they are posing as a woman in order to convince users to download something that will introduce a trojan virus into their computer in order to get access to any porn images they may have stored in their cellphones, at the very least, someone should examine that individual's contributions to see if they are safe to leave up. —Neotarf (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

While several people supporting the ban have posted diffs I do think they should have been presented when the ban was proposed. One of the key features of evidence is that it should be evident. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 03:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There are a few diffs --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the key features of a ban proposal is that people who are likely to be interested should be notified. Has the gender gap project been notified? I believe Tutelary and Titanium Dragon have both paid them a visit. What about the other talk pages where they have been editing? ——Neotarf (talk) 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Notified Gender Gap project. --GRuban (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm noticing my two edits are being rev-deleted yet my comment on here remains? Can anybody explain why revisions are being deleted (mine in particular), or is it an effort to get rid of dox links like Anthony had stated above? Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure why this is being called "doxxing". Tutelary's real name has not been mentioned aither here or elsewhere, merely posting made by him at Reddit and hackforums. This, as far as I am aware, is not either doxxing or outing. Black Kite (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm just curious as to what's up with all the rev-deletions. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So am I, and I've asked the admin concerned for an explanation. What was rev-del'd was simply links to comments made on external sites. No personal information was mentioned. Black Kite (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Doxxing: "publishing personally identifiable information about an individual". You don't consider posting (atleast a supposed) picture of a Misplaced Pages editor personally identifiable information (and studying place)? --Pudeo' 20:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

"... although our standards of publishing prevent us from releasing certain personally identifying information about potentially underage persons." By your own definition, what Wikipediocracy did with Tutelary is not "doxxing". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't pretend to be silly, a picture clearly showing one's face is personally identifiable, especially given that the university name was released. ("Does anyone know this student?"...) As stated on Mike_V's talk page, the oversight was reviewed and approved by two different oversighters. If you disagree, you should email AudCom. --Pudeo' 19:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be hallucinating. There is not and never has been any mention of a university or the name of any other institute of learning on that page, and the page does not and never did contain such an image as you describe (see the editor's note). Andreas JN466 19:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You are right about the school, it was just on state level. However, it did contain a personally identifiable picture. The editor's note in fact states they removed the picture. --Pudeo' 20:14, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's just be accurate about this. The post did not contain a picture. The editor's note says, "An earlier version of this post contained a link to publicly viewable photographs (mirror selfies) of Ging287, which he uploaded to an image sharing site five years ago when a teenager. The link was removed upon request by a Twitter user." Andreas JN466 20:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Earlier versions did contain photos, they have removed it. I have an archive link from when they did. I also am sickened by the fact that they still consider me a male, when I've made it quite freakin' clear that I am not. It's insulting and harassment. Also, it wouldn't be able to be linked anywho for it contains dox information of another Wiki editor. Tutelary (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Come on, we all saw the post. There was a link to a photo page, but not the photos themselves. Andreas JN466 21:13, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Could you please double- or triple-check that, Andreas? I read the article fairly soon after it was posted and saw no photo of Ging, but perhaps it was taken down early. Tutelary, could you please email me the archive link? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

100% positive on that. Andreas JN466 22:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary just emailed me the archived version of the Wikipediocracy blog post and it did not contain the photo/s in question. It contained a link to another site that hosted photos. That link has since been removed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthonyhcole. For your own safety, I would suggest you check your computer for trojans, as there is a user Tutelary on hackforums.net who uses the same name and surname that Tutelary has used on Wikimedia sites, and who explains at some length there how he installs Remote Access Trojans on users' computers by getting them to click on links, open e-mail attachments and so forth. Better safe than sorry. Andreas JN466 00:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're kidding. Link? (I will run a malware scan. Thanks.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

He is definitely not kidding, and you better use an updated version of Malware Bytes. At the very least. PS: I moved your post so as to keep the thread continuous. Dave Dial (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh Lord. I just saw the IP post #above. Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:41, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Dave Dial or Andreas, I've just re-read the links in the IP's post #above and can't see any corroboration for the claim that "Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information." I admit I'm very technically ignorant and may well be missing something, but could one of you please explain what those linked pages say about breach of privacy? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Try this link, they explain in detail how they do it --5.81.51.98 (talk) 02:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 5.81. I think I'm getting it now. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, I just indef'd Doxelary (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Whether it's Tutleary or someone pretending to be, I offer no opinion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Would a possible sock check be worth looking into? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say yes. If a checkuser were to determine that it was really Tutelary making that post on Jimbo's talk page, that would change me to supporting a site ban. But it could also easily be a so-called Joe job. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC) And it would be worse because Tutelary welcomed Doxelary on talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The welcoming is less a matter of me welcoming a sock (I only have one Misplaced Pages account) but more a fact of some minor OCD going off. Two red links in a row just annoys me so I welcome them; I get rid of that annoying feeling and I welcome a new contributor to Misplaced Pages. Win win. Tutelary (talk) 23:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell:, why did you hardblock the user indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE? What did the user do wrong in any context of disruption? Additionally, you revoked talk page and email access, which is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK unless there is evidence of disruption on those avenues; which there doesn't seem to be. Tutelary (talk) 23:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Let me be clear nobody is saying you have socked but given how it is connected it should be looked into. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point though I see no harm in checking, you are right it could be a wrong tree but it is just another red flag going off. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87 is right here. Someone spoofing a user name only to contribute an edit to discuss that user? You (tutelary) don't see how that could be disruptive? When it's your own user name? We don't need pseudo-twotelary's (or knowledgekid88's or knowledgekid89's) running around, I don't think.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I have my assumption of good faith and to the fact that 1. They could be asked to change their username. or 2. I'm not sure of a site wide policy that bans impersonation of very close usernames (in this case I think it was intentional as googling 'Doxelary" doesn't come up with anything, probably lack of good imagination and decided to use my name but change up a letter) and 3. Hardblocking email and talk page when there is no abuse in those avenues is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK. I see HJ Mitchell not responding to my query yet editing other pages...admins are to be accountable. Tutelary (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

A sock check on Doxelary would be apt given the individual's expressed familiarity with Misplaced Pages and Wikipediocracy. I highly doubt it is Tutelary. GamerGate people are discussing this all over Twitter, 4chan, and Reddit. One of them, perhaps one who has a past here, could have easily popped in to comment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Misleading usernames are disruptive and distracting, regardless of origin. If The Devil's Avocado suddenly appeared to participate only in this thread, my opinion would be the same.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I am tempted to start an SPI on this; I have seen stranger things before than a bad hand account. Even if the account isn't Tulary there is a chance that it is one of the usual suspects --Guerillero | My Talk 04:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

And I was more than just tempted. Please see: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, this should clear up this loose end if there is any. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking note of some editors referring to "the usual suspects", it might perhaps be helpful for them to comment on that at the SPI, but in a specific manner, rather than leaving it for the rest of us to guess about. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We should only consider the edits he made to articles here. If assume for argument's sake that all the other allegations are correct, then that's a perfectly acceptable tactic one may use to get a point accross. We can strongly disagree with the point being made, but it's a tactic that has been used many times, often with positive effects. Take e.g. the Sokal affair, or James Randi letting a few of his apprentices pretend to be psychics so that his criticism of the parapsychology field would finally be taken serious (and it indeed worked). If a group of people is right on an issue and Tutelary joins that group, misrepresenting himself and attempting to act as an agent provocateur, then nothing bad can happen. Being right makes the group immune to its positions being debunked. Instead of condemning such actions, we should embrace it. Count Iblis (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that I made the assumed that Tutelary is a male only for argument's sake without me personally taking a position in this dispute. Since Tutelary has made it clear that she is a female and she did that also personally to me when she objected to me using "himself" to refer to her above , I need to make clear that unless proven otherwise, Tutelary should be considered a female as that's how she identifies herself. She asked me to change "him" into "her" in the above posting, but I don't think I should do that because above I refer to a hypothetical Tutelary who really is male if one assumes that her critics are correct. Count Iblis (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's the misogyny that's the problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I asked you before. Don't call other editors misogynist without good reason. Please be civil. WP:CIVL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to the edit where you said: Nobody on Misplaced Pages is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it.? __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference between calling out on abusive behavior and throwing epithets like Joseph McCarthy. --Pudeo' 20:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you calling an editor Joe McCarthy? __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pointing to the absurdity of Eric Corbett, a total non-misogynist (though frequent equal-opportunity uncivil dick head) being labelled a misogynist and dragged to "arbitration" for frankly speaking his mind at the gender-gap task force, while the seriously misogynist Tutelary and Tutelary's concern-troll mates all-but extinguish the task force by drowning it in their oh-so-civil "men's rights" word-salad. Classic. Just perfect. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's better to stick to the on-Wiki problems. Things like editing disputes, tendentious editing, harassment etc. etc. What Tutelary does elsewhere is neither here nor there, it can only be used as supplementary evidence. If I harass Jews on Misplaced Pages but in some of these cases you could consider that to be borderline cases of harassment, then me posting on Neo-Nazi forums may be relevant evidence in an ArbCom case to bolster the case against me. But you can't turn this around, a Neo-Nazi can in principle be a good contributor to Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 22:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote? Tutelary and friends with their anti-woman agenda and endless specious crap arguments swamped and trashed the gender gap task force. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Godwin? But let me use your analogy this once: In principle, yes. But not if they made unconstructive edits in civil rights activists' BLPs and stressed their supposed ethnicity ("fellow black person here") in community discussions about racism. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who Eric Corbett is, but take it up with him, not un-related individuals. Peace. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

If disruption at the gender gap task force is the main problem then let's just focus on that problem. Count Iblis (talk) 01:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Just close

Anyone else feel that this all manufactured trolling from 4chan and reddit? All "sides" that have created this appear to benefit from publicity whether it's an obscure indie game developer, washed-up hollywood actor, or single cause advocates looking for attention. I see all the political hot-topic buzzwords being hashtagged with the "controversy" as if they are tied (hint: hacking Apple and privacy violations has no connection to gaming or misogyny or feminism unless your trying to troll those that feel strongly about those topics on 4chan or reddit). Wikipedicracy extended the trolling to WP. Given the reputation of 4chan and reddit and the level of discourse - I'm calling shenanigans and we are all being trolled to pay attention to something that is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Don't feed the trolls. Stop, close and ignore. --DHeyward (talk) 05:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, dude? If you can't see the connection between misogyny and gaming, you obviously haven't been paying attention because there's been volumes written about it lately. You think that Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian wanted to have misogynist bile endlessly spat at them just so that they could get more publicity? Those "men's rights advocates" on Reddit aren't trolling - they actually seem to believe that vile crap. Editors who hang out in those forums are bringing it here. Wikipediocracy just exposed what has been getting worse for quite a while. This issue has become a festering sore and will only get worse if it isn't dealt with. Kaletony (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

No, "dude", I see a connection between 16-18 y/o boys that define their view of relationships/girls/sex somewhere between Hollywood fantasy and porn - and the industry that caters to it (Hollywood, porn, gaming). They also cater to their views on violence and crime. The boys act it out on reddit and 4chan, and yes, they are trolling (successfully) if you think "men's rights" is anywhere near reddit or 4chan. Nor is there any non-trolling feminist areas on those sites. I also wouldn't use pathological terms like "misogyny" to describe preformed views expressed by adolescents. These "issues" being flung across twitter are akin to the activists that opposed SpongeBob SquarePants on the basis the cartoon sponge was "gay" and the various "debates" that sprung up. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

MeMills is topic banned from all men's rights related pages and discussions. They are neither an adolescent boy nor a troll. SPECIFICO was just handed an interaction ban with a prominent female editor. They are neither an adolescent nor a troll. Even if your opinion were correct, why would we ignore adolescent trolls? Some editors here are trying to maintain neutral articles about these subjects - why should they have to deal with trolls and zealots? And what difference does it make if someone is trolling by taking an extreme postion or if they honestly believe it? It isn't the ideas that are the problem here, it's the actions. And the actions speak for themselves. Troll or not, people like Tutelary need to be shown the door. Kaletony (talk) 21:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You are missing it. Topics whose notability is derived from reddit, 4chan or wikipediocracy are simply not notable. It's trolling. There is a difference between administering editor behavior here vs. giving voice to trolling from over there. The fact that you equate what happens on reddit, 4chan and wikipediocracy as notable discourse on feminism, misogyny or men's rights is rather disturbing. None of the items you mentioned is related to each other. For that reason trolls, who come here to fight for/against Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian because reddit or 4chan ridiculed them or harassed them is trolling - and unrelated to editor behavior here. Women are harassed all the time and that is a general issue but reddit isn't a particularly different place that deserves special attention. Your local courthouse has public records of every order of protection and it isn't news or noteworthy and they are worse than what goes on at reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy. Those sites are the adolescent version of IRL harassment and threats. Being on reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy doesn't add to their claims or notability but if we feed it, it will surely grow. That's all they are known for - adolescent trolling. Conversely, actresses that are already notable that had personal photos stolen is a real issue outside the echo chamber and they had notability prior to the act. If you knew how many photos were stolen from non-celebrities you would realize that the reddit angle is meaningless. In short, editors that bring trolling from those sites in the form of increasing eyeballs to those sites should be dealt with swiftly and the articles dealt with just as swiftly. Editors that behave badly in general are already taken care of. They are unrelated issues as the bringing reddit/4chan/wikipediocracy here is trolling. Your conflation of Specifico/CMDC interaction with anything other than Specifico/CMDC and specifically related to CMDC's gender is a gross mischaracterization and understanding of that interaction ban as well as being unrelated to this discussion. --DHeyward (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think the things they talk about on Reddit, 4chan and Wikipediocracy have no overlap with Misplaced Pages then you must wear blinders. Both about those sites and about Misplaced Pages. Maybe you honestly do think that it's just kids playing around. It isn't. Kaletony (talk) 03:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"The things" they talk about are too broad a characterization to say they don't overlap. Your connection of CMDC/Specifico to this discussion are an example of the problem of feeding trolls. It appears from your argument that because reddit speaks like adolescents about women and feminists and that it is therefore simply an extension of WP's discussion regarding women editors and feminists and all discussions regarding women can be framed in terms defined by reddit. That is not the case as reddit has no notable views on women's issues or notable views on wikipedia. CMDC/Specifico isn't even remotely related and you've offered no connection other than an observation that one editor is female. Reddit doxxing is the internet version of writing a girls address and phone number with "for a good time call Jenny 867-5309" on the high school bathroom. It's very disconcerting and serious to the girl and the school and provides plenty of juvenile gossip and drama as well as serious discussions of harassment at the school appropriate for adolescents but is not notable. Stealing personal photo's and publishing them is a crime. The current high-profile theft case in the news is notable for WP because the subjects are notable, not just because they are salacious or prurient. Salacious and prurient photos are stolen/published all the time, even among adolescents that live for salacious and prurient, and are routinely prosecuted/punished without even a whisper in the news or Misplaced Pages. But adolescents that have not developed their own identity and live in a world defined by idealizations/stereotypes because they have an underdeveloped sense of self and others, as all children do, is not the place to look for adult characterizations on interactions between various groups. A fourteen year old gamer whose only real-life "adult relationship" with a women comes from a torn out and sticky page he got from his older brother is not the starting point for complex adult discussions on misogyny, feminism or women (nor is their strategy for winning battles in violent video games a starting point for foreign policy). And while a 14 y/o may not be able to distinguish his relationship with that torn-out picture and a mature adult relationship (or his fantasy relationship with Katniss Everdeen with an adult relationship), adults can, and should. Those sites offer no real insight into anything other than the minds of juveniles and transferring it here only makes WP more juvenile. --DHeyward (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought we agreed to disagree? Now you're arguing with me about things I haven't even said. Maybe someone else wants to explore your theories about adolescent boys, but I don't. Kaletony (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"Dude", I thought so too. And then you started to argue about "what I think" that I've never thought nor written. Apparently you want Misplaced Pages to document encounters of non-notable trolling by adolescent boys. We don't need to explore or document any of it, even your pet interests. --DHeyward (talk) 22:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Ignore" may work for those who can forget about this matter once it disappears from this page, but it won't help the editors and admins who have spent many hours struggling with these articles and the barrage of new editors. I've never had to use revision delete so many times on a single set of articles before, which should give you an idea of the seriousness of this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 15:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: why have you not used sanctions for "biographical content" problems. The rest of us cannot read what you revdel. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I am considering issuing topic bans against particular editors under these sanctions if the irresponsible behavior continues, especially since the drama mongering on this board makes it unlikely that it will be able to seriously address this issue. I've already blocked one editor for 24 hours and had to warn another. Gamaliel (talk) 21:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I mean "ignore" the topic, as in sanction editors that are flocking here to "cover" reddit, 4chan and now wikipediocracy as if this is the permanent repository of whatever drama they created in those sites. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I also agree that closing this now wouldn't be productive, 4chan is considered by many to be the cesspool of the internet now that it appears that they are involved some action needs to be taken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The EU should impose sanctions on reddit, 4chan, and wikipediocracy for stoking unrest on Misplaced Pages. Count Iblis (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• As much as it would be very nice if all the nastiness on "teh internets" would pack its childish self up and go away, the obvious reality is that we still have some very serious unresolved issues here on Misplaced Pages, and consensus has not yet been reached. At the very least, we need to keep this open until the SPI investigation is resolved. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary may be a false flag person created by Wikipediocracy to try to change our policies here

While I'm of the position that we should assume that Tutelary is for real, address her as a woman because she self identifies that way etc. etc., when we consider imposing restrictions we need to consider all the possibilities here including those that when taken seriously may be insulting to Tutelary. There is the real possibility that someone at Wikipediocracy has created an account named "Tutelary" on different forums who behaves in a politically incorrect way, including here at Misplaced Pages. When that online footprint is made, that person with his regular moniker then starts a discussion about this "Tutelary" on Wikipediocracy, who he claims to have stumbled into and some research he did uncovered that he is not to be trusted, yet Misplaced Pages looks like tolerating this person. The goal is then to get this person blocked without going through the regular processes here on Misplaced Pages. A precedent is then set where evidence posted on Wikipediocracy alone is sufficient to ban someone here. The real target may thus not be Tutelary but someone else against whom Wikipediocracy has a weaker case (or just to have the precedent set for the future if this is ever needed). They would then be holding back until Tutelary is banned here. They will then post the evidence about that other case and we may then end up acting on the Tutelary precedent. Count Iblis (talk) 20:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The only thing less plausible than this, is that you were being serious when you said it. moluɐɯ 23:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary created his account here January 7th 2012. He made no edits until October 27th 2013, but doesn't really start editing regularly until February 2014. Hmmm, no edits for almost two whole years after creating the account? That's kinda odd. When does thsi false Wikipediocracy trail start? Kaletony (talk) 23:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Kaletony (talk) created his/her account on 13 September 2014. But when does Katetony's real trail start? Perhaps this sockpuppet investigation will find out. Memills (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Kaletony has been indefinetly blocked by Drmies for 'obviously using an alternative account.' I don't know what other alternative account(s) Kaletony has used, but it should be interesting if the SPI can find out. Memills (talk) 04:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Bullshit. KonveyorBelt 00:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure if trolling, or... Tarc (talk) 03:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• In the Manning ArbCom case you demonstrated that this is easy to do. You didn't do what you did to subvert the outcome of the case and you made public what you did after the end of the case, but in principe you could have done that. Any system that is not governed by strict rules and principles where subjective judgements, people's gut feelings etc. play an imporant role is vulnerable to be subverted by agent provocateurs. That's why my point is that we must not deviate from the fundamental principle that people should only be banned based on clear on-Wiki disruption. Whether or not Tutelary is really an agent provacateur isn't the point, just that for all we know, this could be the case. Count Iblis (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  I would like to throw out there that Tutelary is actually the MediaWiki software, having gained sentience. I mean, we don't know this *isn't* the case, so we should consider it just in case. moluɐɯ 22:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  Well, we can actually rule this out on theoretical grounds, see e.g. here :). Thing is that on the internet it's child's play to create the cyber equivalent of Operation Northwoods. Count Iblis (talk) 01:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

  That's not fair. My theory is exactly as plausible as yours. moluɐɯ 20:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• As long as we're going here, I suppose it's worth pointing out that Count Iblis' argument relies on the controversial claim that Misplaced Pages and Wikipediocracy aren't both operated by the NSA. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 03:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Do'h.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• . AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have no opinion as to whether this rather convoluted scenario laid out by Count Iblis is correct, but I agree that relying on material posted outside of Misplaced Pages can be problematic and should be approached with caution. Remember too that if this kind of evidence is to be used to ban people, it can also be used in lesser situations such as COI investigations. Coretheapple (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  Indeed. Count Iblis (talk) 01:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• My mind, is blown. What an intense idea! Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 03:25, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• In college I smoked so much marijuana one time that I thought David Bowie was god and that he was communicating with earthlings through the track structure of certain greatest hits albums. I encourage those inclined to adopt convoluted theories to keep the hell away from Colorado. Carrite (talk) 21:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• How do you know the chinese aren't really the ones behind this, @Count Iblis:? Intrepid #GamerGate supporters over at the GamerGate wiki have uncovered evidence of wikipediocracy's shadowy connections to a chinese spy ring. 146.185.183.119 (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Three ways this can end

1. Tutelary is banned for any of the above offense ad everyone goes on their way.
2. This discussion closes as no consensus in which case editors would either apologize to Tutelary or just ignore all that has happened and move on their way.
3. Tutelary is found to have done no wrong doing in which case editors would apologize (At least I hope) for everything that has happened.

No matter how you look at it based on how much feedback this has gotton I doubt that Tutelary will come out of this unscathed somehow, something to think about regardless of the outcome. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Either an innocent person has been dragged through the mill at Misplaced Pages ANI because of a blog at an external site or, if information above is to believed, a beginner 'black hat' hacker, with extremely poor 'OpSec' (Operational Security) has been easily doxed and offered up to Feds on a silver platter for alleged use of RATs, and is facing the sharp end of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act because of it. AnonNep (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm saying the following partly in the context of this part of the discussion, and also partly in the context of the subsection above, about the scenario of a false flag. There is a checkuser investigation going on now, and we should let that go ahead and see what it tells us. Until then, I think that we need to keep open minds, and regard offsite accusations with due skepticism. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Which CU investigation do you mean? This one or this one? -Thibbs (talk) 03:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I was unaware of the second one when I wrote that, but now that I am, they are obviously interrelated. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't like the idea that someone is going around claiming to be female and making use of that deception to gain advantage, if that is what happened. But there are a lot of people who claim erudition, ethnic background and other traits to gain advantages in discussions, and there is no way of verifying what they say unless they provide verifiable personal information. It's one thing for an editor to refer to himself as a female, a physicist or whatever, but people who believe such claims assume the risk that such claims are false or distorted. Perhaps another possible outcome is to educate people on that fact. I don't like the witch hunt atmosphere promoted by this kind of offsite sleuthing, and we have to weigh whether that is more harmful than the misconduct alleged. Tutelary has already been punished by the publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Well one thing is that the user could stop saying "as a woman..." to win content disputes and start relying more on references --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Even better, to disregard any such statements by anybody unless their real identity is both verifiable and relevant to the discussion. That's just basic Internet common sense. Coretheapple (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Who are you addressing that to? Myself? Other users? Admins? That would be wonderful but it's unlikely to happen. If somebody says "as a woman, I have no issue with a cropped photo of Power Girls breasts being the sole image on her article" then they are clearly using their supposed identity to win the content dispute --5.81.52.138 (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I was making a general comment. The question is not that it's bad to be deceptive, but whether Misplaced Pages can or should "outsource" investigations to uncover deception, as in effect is happening here. What I'm suggesting is that we should judge what people say by the quality of their ideas and not the unverifiable statements they make about themselves. Coretheapple (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary

The plot thickens.

An SPI concluded that user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. Diff. User:Kaletony has been indefinitely blocked. How many other sock accounts this person has is anyone's guess. Memills (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

And thickening it even further, please compare and . We obviously have a case of good hand, bad hand socking here, and clear disruption of this ANI discussion. I am about to strike out all of Kaletony's edits here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and now that we have that cleared it is looking less likely that Tutelary socked. In the event that Tutelary did not sock the decision I see rests on the other evidence provided. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Without getting too WP:BEANSy, there is another possibility, so let's please let the SPI process run its course. But I hope that you are correct, and if that turns out to be the case, a lot of the arguments for a ban are going to look weaker and weaker. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought that all of the original concerns about Tutelary had nothing to do with sock puppetry? That issue was completely tertiary to the discussion. The concerns were about what Tutelary was doing with their single named account vs. what people believed they were doing on completely other sites. The suspicion about a possible sock only developed because a name popped up that was very close to Tutelary's, but that happened after all the arguments for a ban were being discussed. The SPI cleared that one situation, which is nice, but it has nothing to do with the doxxing issues. An SPI can't "clear" Tutelary about anything to do with the original issues. __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It can do one of at least two things. It can turn up further reason to be concerned about Tutelary, or it can discredit some of the arguments against Tutelary. (I realize, of course, that there is no way that it can discredit all or even most of those arguments against, although anyone who came to this discussion with good faith concerns about misogyny and who might understandably object to aspersions being cast on their good faith concerns because of a possible SPI result should consider how aspersions arising from an external website might look when the shoe is on the other foot.) I hope that editors who favor a ban, based upon the original issues, realize that a consensus for such a ban, based upon the original issues, has not occurred. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

But a clean SPI relating to a single sockpuppet case has absolutely nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of the arguments against Tutelary that were discussed. By a light-hearted analogy, if the original charge was "someone stole a cupcake" and then somebody shouted their car keys were missing, and we did a search and found who took the car keys, it doesn't prove or disprove anything whether the person stole the cupcake. __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that what I said? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to make it bit clearer that any SPI would only help discredit a single specific argument that Tutelary was a particular sockpuppet. That's it. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that. __ E L A Q U E A T E 01:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

None of this is about the user creating a sockpuppet during the ANI process. How could a user be brought to ANI about something they do during the process. It's about the gaming of the Wiki to promote a sexist ideology and breaking WP:BLP rules --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess some of them don't realize that a consensus has not occurred. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Whoever shouts consensus first wins, don't you know how Misplaced Pages works? --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• The two SPI investigations have been closed and archived. Whoever Kaletony/Doxelary was, it was someone who was trying to disrupt this situation, and it definitively was not Tutelary. So I think one thing that is clear is that this entire case has had an awful lot of interference from people outside of Misplaced Pages, from start to finish, some of it based, apparently, in good-faith concerns about eliminating misogynistic content, but a lot of it just ugly and disruptive. Another thing that is clear, at least to me, is the complete absence of evidence here of Tutelary having added BLP-violating material in article space. This ANI thread might as well be closed now. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Good points, Tryptofish (talk).

" ...whoever Kaletony/Doxelary was, it was someone who was trying to disrupt this situation..." There is currently a sockpuppet investigation to investigate whether Kaldari was "that someone." Memills (talk) 04:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Two editors collaborating on biased degrading of Misplaced Pages articles

I'll keep it as short as possible. Two editors, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner are harassing Boris Malagurski-related articles, mostly the article about his film The Weight of Chains. Even though these articles are very well sourced (not many articles on Misplaced Pages have so many references per sentence), they've expressed their dislike and anti-Malagurski bias very directly several times, and are now ganging up to discourage those who actually want to help contribute to Misplaced Pages in regards to articles on the matter. For standing up for neutrality, I've been accused of being Boris Malagurski, his friend and on his payroll, accused that I just want to praise him and his work with no criticism, while my main objection is that negative criticism should be well sourced, and that well sourced facts and positive critique shouldn't be removed. In essence, I would like neutrality.

However, whenever I list reputable sources that support any claim, they always jump to say "No consensus!", and thus any serious editing can't be done. Most recently, after I added information and quotes from a review from VICE (magazine), Bobrayner quickly reverted it , again citing "clearly no consensus to add this" (not a word dropped on the talk page from him). When I even expanded a review to include more negative criticism of the film, but argued that blog posts can't be considered as reliable sources for criticism, again the screams of "no consensus" to remove the blogger's rants. Pincrete keeps canvassing () and Bobrayner gladly jumps in whenever needed. This is starting to get very annoying. I've lost my nerve once and engaged in an edit war, I don't want to get into that kind of communication anymore, I would like to see what is it that has to happen so that I can peacefully edit and collaborate with those who didn't come to Malagurski-related articles with an agenda, but with an honest wish to contribute in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. Editing here was fun when I started, but if I have to argue with people whenever I add reliably sourced content that fulfill Misplaced Pages criteria, I'm out. If pushing POV, manipulating, canvassing and getting away with it just because some articles are less popular than others is the essence of Misplaced Pages, please let me know so that I can make my decision on whether to stay. Thanks in advance, --UrbanVillager (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Question from Pincrete, may I ask the time-frame in which this is likely to be heard? I ask as there a very large number of diffs to assemble to answer this properly. Pincrete (talk) 00:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no guarantee that anyone will respond. However, if you keep it brief, you'll have a much better chance. Few people will read an excessively long post that details every minor transgression made by an editor. I would suggest you try to keep it to the length of UrbanVillager's post (or shorter). I skimmed over the article's talk page (and a few others), and I'd suggest that you two could probably benefit from content-related dispute resolution, such as the dispute resolution noticeboard, a third opinion, an RFC, or asking WikiProject Film for unbiased input. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's quite a long complaint about a small part of the problem. Let me try to condense the broader story, for the good folk of WP:ANI.

• UrbanVillager is a single-purpose account whose only work is to promote Malagurski, an obscure filmmaker. Tellingly, UrbanVillager writes promotional content about Malagurski's work before information is actually released to the public. Articles on these films have, historically, contained only positive content - and impressive lists of awards (some of which are impossible to reconcile with real-world evidence), and UrbanVillager will automatically revert anyone who tries to fix it. Just look at the history of The Weight of Chains]. Normally I wouldn't bother much with mere spam, but Malagurski's films make some radical claims about recent Balkan history, and UrbanVillager has tweaked content to suit those claims.
• The combination of promotional editing, misuse of sources, and radical views on recent Balkan history, can lead to angry comments by various people, although I've tried to remain civil. In a previous attempt at dispute resolution, UrbanVillager insisted that several editors - the folk he has diligently reverted over the years - are all conspiring to malign Malagurski. It's difficult to reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
• The latest problem is about some reviews of The Weight of Chains. UrbanVillager has spent years adding positive wording and removing negative wording and reverting anyone who disagrees; that's his job. In the last few days, two different uninvolved people (Psychonaut (talk · contribs) and EdJohnston (talk · contribs)) had warned UrbanVillager for editwarring and for "making unilateral changes"; UrbanVillager did it again; I made a single revert, because there was clearly no consensus for UrbanVillager's wording; so UrbanVillager tried asking EdJohnston for support, and when EdJohnston disagreed, UrbanVillager started this thread instead.

bobrayner (talk) 08:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Response from Pincrete Bobrayner has expressed very succinctly the broader issues, so I will focus on recent events and UrbanVillager's user behaviour, which is, frequently abusive, wilfully perverse, and shows no meaningful engagement with the guidelines or values of Misplaced Pages (I can provide MANY examples of personal abuse, several of racist abuse many of wilfully perverse behaviour or wilful mis-quoting, but do not do so here for reasons of brevity). I believe this ANI is little more than a smokescreen by UrbanVillager, to hide his own behaviour and to retain WP:Ownership of these pages.

Firstly, I ask that the recent talk page be read (to the extent that you can endure it), here:-. This is talk over less than 2 days (9th-11th Sep) about the 'Criticism' section, of the article. The background is that only 4 days before, both UrbanVillager and myself had been warned against making ANY non-consensus changes to this section of the article (or to one disputed word). On the morning of 11th September, I posted a clear statement that UV's proposed changes did NOT have my consent, and did not appear to be RSs either, here:- nb para 3 of changes panel, 'Where this discussion has got to … 90 minutes later, he replied here:- nb end of para 1 of changes panel 'So, the review goes in the article.' … some 3 minutes later, he made this edit:- which he claims in his edit reason, is 'as per talk page' . This was not ONE controversial edit, but the complete rewriting of the entire section.

When challenged by EdJohnston, later that day, UrbanVillager made the minimum reverts explicitly demanded by EdJohnston, but retaining ALL of the material, which he had sought to insert that morning, some of which - he had every reason to know - was factually wrong about a reviewer whom he wished to disparage, content which he certainly knew did not have consensus. It was at this point that Bobrayner, made the change he did, though I had already approached EdJohnston, asking permission to do so.

UrbanVillager's opening statement contains two - very telling - 'errors', firstly he links to the VICE magazine Misplaced Pages entry, not to the actual 'review' which I expressed strong reservations about here:-, (which one gets to via the VICE site here:- … click on 'details'). Can somebody correct me if this does not appear to be an ad, which is - at best - quoting from a review. Even if I am wrong, was I unreasonable to ask for more than 12 hours overnight between its first suggestion and agreeing to its insertion? Secondly, (on line 4 para 2, line starting 'rants), he says Pincrete 'keeps canvassing ', and he links to HIS lengthy characterisation of the event on the talk page, not to the 'crime' itself here:-, (or fuller picture here:-), as for the word 'keeps', I ask UrbanVillager to supply a single other incidence of me making (what could be construed as) inappropriate contact with ANY editor.

I could say much more, the above is a record of only a few days, and not the two years with which I have been (on & off), involved with this page (and to a lesser extent its satellites), any slice of which reveals behaviour by UrbanVillager, which is - at best WP:Wikilawyering and - at worst, intolerable. I am mindful of the need to be brief, so I finish with a simple request, I ask that - as a minimum - UrbanVillager be banned from all Boris Malagurski pages for a period, which will give him the opportunity to prove that his commitment really is to the integrity of Misplaced Pages, and not to his 'chosen special subject'.Pincrete (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• A 'broader' point not made by Bobrayner, is that UrbanVillager also creates and contributes to 'Malagurski' pages on either 3 or 4 other Misplaced Pages sites, from memory, these include German, Greek and Serbian Misplaced Pages … I will supply proofs if wished.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, I hope you don't mind, I've inserted my 'Statement' before your post below.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I took a look The Weight of Chains 2 (now at AfD) and noted it said that production was continuing into 2013. Turns out that was copyvio from - a page archived 3 days before the article was created with the copyvio. Which led me to look at the creator's talk page - User talk:Kepkke which has number of copyvio warnings on it - editor also never seems to communicate, let alone deal with copyvio warnings. No comment at the moment on UrbanVillager. Dougweller (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Kepkke - too much copyvio. Left him/her an explanation of what to do to get unblocked. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, what you have spotted is only the 'tip of the iceberg' of copy vio. Almost the entire synopsis of Weight of Chains, is a copy/paste of various versions of the film's website, or press pack, any meaningful attempt to change it has been obstructed for over two years. We have been 'allowed' to correct the more grotesque errors of grammar or meaning (factions, not fractions, critique when criticim is intended, etc.). Little more.Pincrete (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the copyvio, I have long been concerned about the waves of sockpuppets and meatpuppets editing in this area. For instance, Bormalagurski = TheWriterOfArticles = WikiMB = KOCOBO = Bože pravde. UrbanVillager and Cinéma C both share the same hallmarks of sockpuppets - first edits are made very quickly, first turning their userpage into a bluelink, second turning their talkpage into a bluelink, and a minute later diving into a controversial article to revert somebody. Personally, I'm confident that Bolonium is meatpuppet rather than sockpuppet (although on ja.wiki Bolonium was blocked as a sock of Staka, who is in turn blocked on Commons). Joy set out this sequence of socks:

• Bormalagurski - September 2005 - September 2006
• Bože pravde - September 2006 - March 2009
• Cinéma C - March 2009 - September 2010
• UrbanVillager - September 2010 - today.

But regardless of that ancient history (checkuser would be stale), UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on. bobrayner (talk) 02:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that. If UrbanVillager would just chill out a bit, I don't think it would be such a problem. On the talk page, I saw Pincrete offer to compromise, and UrbanVillager flatly rejected it. I'd say, try an RFC to develop a stronger consensus on the talk page. In the event that someone disregards consensus, come back here and request a topic ban for the offending party. So far, it looks to me that it won't be Pincrete that we see brought here next time. As far as canvassing goes, I'd say that it's best to post an unbiased message on a relevant WikiProject, such as WT:FILM; this avoids the impression of canvassing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

BobRayner's FINAL sentence above is the key one for me, 'regardless of ancient history … UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on' . While I understand Bob's frustrations, any evidence of 'puppetry' or COI, is almost inevitably going to be circumstantial (I have no opinion on the matter). However, evidence of abuse of guidelines, personal abuse, and abuse of procedure (of which this ANI case is just an example), is NOT circumstantial. Only yesterday - during a time that UrbanVillager is presenting himself here as the 'victim' - the following interchange took place :-. … note, much of the content of The Weight of Chains 2, was deleted 13th Sept for copy vio, as were several paragraphs from The Weight of Chains main article, for the same reason,- ie almost 4 years after The Weight of Chains received its first copy vio warning here:- Pincrete (talk) 11:48, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I remain utterly unconvinced that the account UrbanVillager is anything other than an egregious WP:SOCK/WP:MEAT violation, per evidence collected in 2012, but discarded on a number of technicalities. Even if others aren't convinced about all that WP:DUCK material, it still doesn't take a lot of effort to conclude that this account by itself is a single-purpose account that is not here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to engage in a shameless promotion of Boris Malagurski, which in turn is a slippery slope into advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle. The entire thing has been a humongous waste of time, and this iteration is no different. But thank you for reminding me that something needs to be done - I propose a topic ban for UrbanVillager on the subject of Boris Malagurski, broadly construed. --Joy (talk) 12:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The 'comedy' continues … UrbanVillager, who says 'Pincrete keeps canvassing' , had the following interchange yesterday :- (from, where UrbanVillager 'pings' Diannaa, 'Diannaa, would this be OK'). This is such an inept and overt action, by UrbanVillager's standards, that I am puzzled as to his motives. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Postdating this so it doesn't get archived into oblivion. --Joy (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

And, speaking of a waste of time - I just noticed Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/20140915. --Joy (talk) 19:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The user Kepkke was blocked a few days ago for copyright violations. This user was previously active in the Balkan topic areas, but I don't recall perceiving him as particularly problematic. Oh well. Anyway, oddly enough, I received an e-mail from an anonymous user today (whom I've never heard from before) telling me that they think that new user RichardWilson78 is Kepkke. The dates seem to roughly match, yet the pattern of editing isn't identical - the new user seems much less timid. It could be an escalation of a grudge because of the block, or it could be an arbitrary accusation, but given the edit warring the new user has been involved in, I'm erring on the side of full disclosure and mentioning it here. --Joy (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking at two recent edits, Bobrayner deleted large areas of text with no justification, giving just the pov assertion "not a reliable source". And here is Somedifferentstuff doing exactly the same, with the same lack of justification . These editors should not have remove referenced content in this way. Their talk page "justifications" are equally weak. There is no need for "consensus" before inserting referenced content. The Vice Raindance Film Festival review and, even more so, the Gregory Elich review that were deleted by Bobrayner, to me seem acceptable as sources. I do not see any properly presented discussion in the talk page about why they should be excluded, all I see is are attempts at productive discussion being hammered by some editors, along with repeated (since almost day one of the article) allegations of sockpuppetry or vested interests, but with never any attempt to take these allegations further (they seem to be there just to disrupt and to close down any discussion). The article's current wording also has a lots of weasel in it, it even has that classic, the unspecified "some critics". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, the Elich, which you say is an acceptable source for inclusion in the 'Reviews' section of a film article, 1) is an interview between somebody IN the film and the director, it does not pretend to be a review of the film … … 2) the interview is already used as a reference in the article (inserted by me). So yes, nobody disputes it as a source for what the director and one of the 'cast' say about the filming, they simply don't consider it an independent RS review.

The VICE is currently at RS noticeboard, at the time of writing NO ONE there has come to the conclusion that it is a review, they have all said it is an advert, and it isn't in VICE magazine anyway, it is simply on their website and has no name creditted to it, merely 'VICE STAFF".

There have been NO allegations from me EVER of any editor being a sock - HOWEVER at least twice today UrbanVillager left posts on WoC talk about ME being a sock - bizarrely, I am supposed to be a sock of an editor who has never been banned and who UrbanVillager acknowledges I spent a long time interracting with two years ago when I first started editing (but as bobrayner says earlier, you can't reason someone out of a belief they never reasoned themselves into).

There IS a need for consensus BEFORE inserting material, referenced or not, when the editor in question has been specifically warned the week before against making changes TO THAT SECTION without consensus. The onus for 'properly presented discussion' surely rests firstly with those who wish to insert material, but it is difficult to see what 'properly presented discussion' there COULD be for justifying an interview between two participants in the film as an independent film review.

I don't think we are supposed to turn this ANI into a battlefield, however, I felt obliged to correct your errors. Pincrete (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that "no consensus" cannot be used to exclude valid content, and issuing "warnings" that anything new in a section first needs consensus is not a position that is sustainable. The issue should be whether the source is an acceptable one, but that sort of discussion seems absent - in the talk page there is too much entrenched absolutism (for example, your own words: "The discussion is over because I say there's nothing more usefull to say"). Saying here that "it is not a film review" is irrelevant: the article section is about critical responses, not film reviews; and the source, Monthly Review, while coming at issues from a predetermined standpoint, is a longstanding publications of some stature. The onus is also on those wanting material removed to justify that removal - just stating "no consensus" in an edit summary is not justification. I didn't say that you had made accusations of sockpuppety, but that such allegations have been thrown around the article's talk page since almost day one. Please accept my apologies if my wording inadvertently implied that you had made such accusations. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

However, Pincrete, this looks (and rhymes) rather like someone implying sockpuppetry: Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I believe your first involvement with the 'Weight of Chains' page was yesterday, also (I think) we have never 'met' before. This ANI is looking at allegations (made against bobrayner and myself), of long term behaviour. For these reasons, I hope you will understand why I think it would only 'muddy the waters' for me to respond to you here. I'm sure the ANI will take note of your observations, and if they think them relevant, ask me to comment on them directly. Pincrete (talk) 12:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I've made one edit to the article (adding a fact tag against that "some critics" wording I mentioned earlier), and until yesterday I had never heard of this film. I noticed this thread on this noticeboard and decided to have a look. And after looking I feel that your interactions on that article have been very heavy, you and other editors have been really slamming down on the attempts by another editor to add content. I don't actually know whether that content is any good - but I do feel the methods you have been using effectively close-down any chance of constructive discussion, which is not the way things should be, and which is also guaranteed to annoy and antagonize UrbanVillager and make his responses equally unconstructive. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I am going to ASK you to strike-thru or delete your posts here. You also have MY permission to, at the same time strike-thru or delete my replies, including this one. If you wish (and if I have time), I will communicate through your or my talk page, however, at the moment (probably unintentionally), the effect you are having is probably not constuctive. I will not respond to ANY further posts HERE, not out of discourtesy, but because this is not the place. Thankyou. Pincrete (talk) 14:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Why would I strike through my posts (or any part of them, given that even my accidental implication that you might have made suggestions of sockpuppetry turned out to be correct)? My words addressed the issues raised by the complainant. I don't at all like the title of his complaint, but I think that the core of his complaint - that editors have been "ganging up" to exclude content, and have been using invalid methods to do it - has some substance to it. I am basing much of my opinion on my belief that what I wrote earlier is correct: that just repeatedly saying "no consensus" cannot be used to exclude otherwise valid content, and that issuing "warnings" that adding anything new into a section first needs consensus is not a position that is sustainable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield said "Bobrayner deleted large areas of text with no justification, giving just the pov assertion "not a reliable source".". I should point out that this content & source was rejected at WP:RSN. Few people would consider that "pov"; with the exception of UrbanVillager, for whom any edit is vandalism by definition if it tones down his promotion of Malagurski. Some examples:
For instance, if somebody says that ""Kosovo: Can You Imagine?"'s prestigious "Silver Palm" award - something he has repeatedly emphasised - was actually one of 76 Silver Palms awarded in the student films category of a hitherto unknown filmfest, that's definitely vandalism, as far as UrbanVillager is concerned. If somebody replaced "Official selection for the "International Festival of New Latin American Cinema"" with "One of thirteen Serbian films selected for the "International Festival of New Latin American Cinema"", you'd better believe that's vandalism too, just as much as the words "film student" are vandalism if they appear anywhere near Malagurski's name. UrbanVillager is always reverting "vandalism". Even airbrushed resume on the website that Malagurski's mommy set up for him had words like "intern" and "telemarketing", but our articles - several of our articles - present him solely as a master filmmaker. At some point in the future, the community will be able to fix these widespread breaches of WP:V and WP:NPOV; but that can only happen after UrbanVillager (and socks) stop reverting, or the ability to revert is taken away from them. bobrayner (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The above comments by Bobrayner should further convince us of UrbanVillager's complaint. Firstly, those large areas of text Bobrayner refers to were deleted within hours of Pincrete initiating the RS noticeboard discussion over one source. No waiting-time was given for the issue to be discussed. Secondly, there has been no rejection of the Monthly Review source because no RS discussion about it has been initiated. Thirdly, of the five editors who have commented to date on the RS discussion for the Vice source, three of them are Bobrayner, Pincrete, and Somedifferentstuff - editors who already wanted to remove the material from the article. The point of bringing things to the RS noticeboard is to get NEW opinions from uninvolved editors, so Bobrayner has no justification in claiming above that the source has been "rejected". It seems to me to be more evidence that UrbanVillager's allegation of editors "ganging up" to exclude content is justified. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

When several editors disagree with UrbanVillager's edits - not just the editors you've listed here, but also folk like Joy, Potočnik, Opbeith, Peacemaker67 &c - conspiracy is not the most likely explanation, and constant reverting is not the best solution. bobrayner (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Re: Bobrayner's 'conspiracy' post immediately above. At the time I was first accused of being a co-conspirator, I had not even read, edited or 'talked on' 3 of the 4 pages I am alleged to be conspiring to distort. For UrbanVillager to make such a mistake once, might be forgivable, to repeat it on several ANI's therafter (without notifying me) seems somewhat careless at the least, to never attempt to apologise for or withdraw the accusation is … … … well, what we have all (unfortunately) come to expect from him. Here:-. Pincrete (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Minor correction to Bobrayner … the film he mentions, was one of 14 winners in the Student's films category, one of 76 overall, and after several very long, hard battles by myself and other editors, the text NOW does say 'one of several winners in Student films category', UrbanVillager has never agreed to this change, but has not - so far - reverted it. … … however other 'festivals', do still seem to be of very questionable note-worthiness, and questionably referenced. These include Ann Arbor Docufest,(until recently described as 'Official Selection, 2011 - for "The Weight of Chains" at the Ann Arbor Docu Fest' which when I eventually tracked down the 'long dead ref.', turns out to be a free monday evening showing at the "Cafe Ambrosia':-Ann Arbor Docu Fest: The Weight of Chains at Cafe Ambrosia, with little evidence that this was meaningfully, a film festival. Pincrete (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC) … … further minor correction, it was PRODUCER, not Peacemaker who was accused of 'conspiracy' alongside myself and the others Bobrayner mentions. added by : Pincrete (talk) 11:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Minor correction to Tiptoethrutheminefield I've left no agree/disagree 'comment' on the RS noticeboard, I HAVE left a response to your post, (which you might think is the same). I have also invited EVERY editor (whether they seemed to agree with me or not) to leave a post there. Even if you ignore bobrayner and myself, can you not see that the other 3 are experienced, independent editors making rational arguments, based on WP policy and guidelines? … … the first two (time-wise) of these were WHOLLY independent, then BR, then SDS (very recently involved with this page), then yourself, then my comment … if that isn't us trying to get 'outside opinion' in a neutral way, I don't know what is. Pincrete (talk) 18:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I have NO reason to believe that your interventions are other than well meant, but I repeat my REFUSAL to go into any defence of my behaviour to you here, for reasons I have already given. If you had been involved with the page, I would happily do so.

On a simple factual matter however, somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of the text on WoC on the day this complaint was filed, had been inserted by UrbanVillager. The other 8-10 involved editors in the last two years, have managed to slightly amend the rest, (all of it done neutrally, as far as possible). Of that 70-90 percent, a VERY large proportion, is copy-pasted from publicity material created by the film maker, and has NEVER had the agreement of the majority of current or past editors. I myself attempted recently to initiate discussion of the present synopsis, here:-, this itself is returning to discussions of two years ago, pointing out that the present synopsis is little more than a 'mirror' of the film maker's website and therefore not only copyvio, but inadequate.

I didn't sign up here as an editor to damage the reputation of public figures or their work, but neither did I sign up to assist them (or their fans) in the creation of vanity pages. Pincrete (talk) 09:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

New editor...

• Wikicology (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm caught between WP:BITE and the trail of destruction this editor seems intent on leaving in their wake. Wikicology joined WP a little over 3 months ago and has since made about 1000 edits, 40% of which are to user talk pages where Wikicology likes to provide "expert" guidance and advice to new and established editors alike. I didn't come across them until their most questionable non-admin closure of this deletion discussion. But scanning through their edit history there are some other concerning things like:

• This series of edits to Deb's talk page.
• This equally strange advice to Northamerica1000.
• This doubling-down on WikiDan61's talk page.

I'm all for enthusiasm but attempting to function as a quasi-admin and getting it so consistently wrong is a recipe for disaster. I'm especially concerned about the idea of a non-admin with this sort of AFD track-record closing discussions (and if the currently-open AFD nominations are anything to go by, that record is progressing in the wrong direction). There's an obvious language barrier there (which makes me even less inclined to bring it here) but we're watching a bad situation get worse. St★lwart 14:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's also this on Bobrayner's talk and this on his own. But I've since seen he counts Kelapstick and RHaworth as mentors so in fairness I've pinged them too. St★lwart 14:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since I was pinged on this, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth. My take on Wikicology is that xe is unwilling to accept advice from more experienced editors, and has an unnecessarily belligerent attitude. The fact that xe is active in WP:NPP, and thus interacting with many newbies leads to lots of biting that, on balance, does more harm than good to the project. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• That was a spectacularly bad call in closing the AFD. I'll soon be reverting it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I have given him the benefit of the doubt for this where an article was accepted from AFC in this current state. Admittedly now Wikicology and several others have helped clean up the article significantly, however I still don't feel it should ever have been moved into the mainspace so I took it to AFD. I think a gentle nudge to be more cautious is definitely in order. CaptRik (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I am particularly glad with Stalwart111 report here as this will significantly improve my edit behaviour. Let me start by correcting an impression of WikiDan61 that I don't take advice from experience editors, that's very untrue. Who else will I take an advice from if not an experienced editor? Deb is not a bot she is an admin. and I had made several comment on his talk pages. If she find it offensive, am sure deb would have taken a proactive measure to curb it, perharps report me here. It is true that I had an issue with Bobrayner (talk · contribs) but i tendered an unreserved apology to him and it was settled. I admit the fact that my comment seemed to be hostile at times and that's usually wit spammers because I found it odd to be polite with spammers. I had no intention to bite new editors. Sometimes I don't even see my comment as a bite. It is easy for Stalwart111 to point out my errors and I will take to correction. It will also be easy for others to point out his error because no one is a perfect editor. But sequel to the above allegation, am ready to takes to correction and it will not repeat itself.Wikicology (talk) 16:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wikicology: Based on the above, and this advice from an editor, I think it might be best for you to refrain from giving advice to editors, even new editors, for a bit and take some time to observe how editors talk to each other here. Your communication style has been somewhat combative, even if you did not intend for it to be so, and even if you feel like your actions are correct. Speaking from my own experience, there is a lot to learn about Misplaced Pages even within the first year or two of doing so. It's best to accept that you will make mistakes because you are still learning (as am I, after editing for several years), and that trying to argue every time you are challenged is not going to be productive for you looking ahead. I, JethroBT 17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't recall any particular interaction beyond this, and this shows as much, certainly not enough for me to consider myself a mentor. Thanks for the ping though Stalwart111. --kelapstick 16:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• The edits here and here (noted above) are particularly worrying to me. Lesson 0 of any collaborative project is humility. We don't always know everything and we should all be willing to dial back accusations like those when countered rather than ratcheting them up. For Wikicology, here are some general pointers: When in doubt, don't template people or warn them unnecessarily. There's no need to warn editors that they might be blocked (either directly or via a euphemism) unless you're absolutely sure that A: they will be blocked for that behavior and B: that a warning will potentially deter them from said behavior. This avoids two problems. First, you don't end up biting a new editor and second you avoid having to decide whether or not you have to be "polite to spammers". If someone is spamming a link (especially multiple times) then just revert the edit. If you feel that a revert needs to be explained (and it often has to be), then leave a polite explanation noting the problems with the edit and how to correct them. Next, when someone who is not involved with a particular dispute (e.g. a revert or a comment you've left) raises an issue with your actions, your first step should be to stop and evaluate whether or not they could be correct. There's no prize for being right. You don't need to apologize or promise to correct the error every time someone comments but consider the possibility that they may have a point. Finally, while it is fun to patrol new pages and recent changes sometimes this isn't the best path for everyone. Consider just editing articles or participating in discussions for a while, you'll be amazed at how much perspective you get by merely stepping away from anti-vandalism tools for a while. Protonk (talk) 16:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I think one of the problems here is that Wikicology is new, and trying to fit in. In doing so, they are "borrowing" a lot of phraseology and style from those who they see as "role models", such as those folks they list as "mentors". For instance, many of the phrases used are ones which RHaworth commonly uses, and they are listed as a user Wikicology admires. English maybe not being a first language tends to compound this approach. Unfortunately, because they haven't been here as long as those other editors, or gained the experience and respect which those other editors have, they can tend to use those "borrowed" styles in a way that isn't really appropriate. This can then be miscontrued as "talking down" when I'm sure that's not the intention. I have absolutely no doubt that they mean very well indeed, and can make great contributions, in time, but it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. A mentor is someone who has agreed to that role, and to whom one should actively go for advice, rather than just copy. They can explain why they do what they do, and at what times it would, or would not, be appropriate for you to do the same, or how you might approach things differently. Begoon  17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• From the depth of my heart, i thank all amiable contributors for the useful comments. I appreciates every criticism from Stalwart111. Sincerely I feel victimized by Stalwart111 report here. I see it as a deliberate intention to sabotage my efforts. Protonk, I only issued warning when an editor make an unconstructive edit such as adding unsourced content to BLP, obvious vandalism, test edit, habitual refusal to use the edit summary, unjustifiable remover of content etc. I think am right for doing that. However, I don't see anything controversial in the AfD discussion closure that leads to this report. It seemed controversial to Stalwart111 simply because he reacted to every comments that favours keep. From a NPOV, I don't think his reactions to the comments make the discussion controversial. When he discovered that the discussion was closed as keep, he wasn't satisfied simply because his vote was Delete and he decided to take the advantage of the fact that am not an admin. I think his report is not from a npov. He should have waited for a neutral experienced editor to challenge it, perhaps one of those whose vote reflect Keep or editor that never participated in the discussion. But I have no other choice than to assume good faith. Am pretty sure that this report will help my edit behavior to a very large extent, because I now knew where I got it wrong and I will surely mend my cloth where it torn. But I feel victimized with Stalwart111 report. I feel sad as I type! Wikicology (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, my objection to your closure has nothing to do with the controversy of the topic (it's not controversial). I didn't "take advantage" of anything and my contribution to that discussion is irrelevant. I didn't challenge the result at WP:DRV, I challenged the closure and would have done so if you had closed as "delete" or (really) anything at all. You simply shouldn't be closing discussions. St★lwart 21:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, I'm not really convinced you appreciate the criticism because you don't seem to acknowledge the mistakes you have made (which is all that they are to me, mistakes, and they're not a big deal) and instead continue to make accusations about other editors (which is problematic). Maybe it's a language issue, but that's how I read your response. I think the suggestions that Begoon offers above is something you should strongly consider: ...it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. Please understand we're not trying to victimize you, but we are trying to lead you down a more productive path because it's clear you have potential and the energy to do good work here. I, JethroBT 19:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• One very trivial example of Wikicology not getting it, but no harm done either. This Tuesday I set out to create Dzanc Books and was met by a message that it had been previously created and deleted as so much corporate spam. I put off creation for one day, and followed the message's suggested advice, leaving a heads-up with the deleting admin, User:Deb. Wikicology left a pointless message, suggesting I use WP:AFC, apparently one of his pet projects. Choor monster (talk) 19:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• thank you I JethroBT and Begoon. I will learn from my mistake and I will make use of every useful advice. Thanks to you all.Wikicology (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe you will. Here's some more advice: Don't copy what other people say or do, word for word - develop your own style and way of doing things. If you're not sure what to do, ask someone you trust. In fact, even if you are sure, ask anyway - it can't hurt. If you don't have people to trust, find some by talking to them. There are lots of people who can help you. Take things slow. When you write a message to someone, preview it, and imagine how you would feel if someone had written it to you. Really imagine that - then write it again, better. You'll do fine. Start with basic things - even formatting, I just fixed all your indents here, for instance; see WP:INDENT. It's lots to learn, and it will take a lot of time. Begoon  20:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that spending too much time on the internet, and Misplaced Pages in particular, does strange things to you. For example, I just filled up Concetta the Corolla with petrol, and notice that the price was $AU 1.337. ZOMG! I thought, it's leet a litre. (Just thought I'd share that with everyone). Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 05:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Withdrawal of his Rollback Rights will make him a Better Wikipedian: My first encounter with Wikicology was when I voted that one of his article should be speedily deleted (as I frequently give my opinions on Nigeria related AFDs) His response was very fascinating to me because he carefully twisted Misplaced Pages policies against me. Although he apologized later but since I gave that vote, he continued to disrupt all my articles on Misplaced Pages. He went further to issue warnings to me on his talkpage.

I believe rollback rights should be reserved for experienced editors with very good track-record. I see no basis for giving him this right, at least until he gets a basic understanding on how the Misplaced Pages community works. Even though it might look like it, I am not saying all these because of the rift we had but out of my deep respect for privileged (special powers) users on Wiki and I just think him retaining the right is similar to giving a loaded AK47 to a newborn baby instead of allowing him to mature. Darreg (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that ANI is supposed to be where experienced editors contributes to discussion from a WP:NPOV to correct abnormalities based on facts and not on existing criticism. It is so sad that Darreg comment suggest a conflict of interest centered on the past clash we had, coupled with false accusation and allegations. Darreg had created over 50 articles here on wikipedia. He claimed that I disrupted all his articles. From his statement above ...he continued to disrupt all my articles on Misplaced Pages. I wonder how wikicology will disrupt over 50 articles (without being blocked long ago). I challenge Darreg to provide links, one-by-one to where I disrupt over 50 articles he created on wikipedia. In addition Rollback is an anti-vandal tool. I am glad to say that am an active patroller of both RC and NPP. Since he has comment on my rollback tool which is even out of point, I challenge Darreg again to provide links one-by-one to where I used my tool to make controversial changes or revert and where I used my tool to engaged in edit warring.I think Stalwart111 and other experienced editors will be interested in that. Having admitted the fact that my tone seemed to be hostile and accepted series of advices from different experienced editors, I expected Darreg to come up with useful and helpful comment rather than criticism based on false accusation and allegations. From a NPOV, I don't think this is expected from an editor who claimed a certain level of experienced.Wikicology (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is my first unpleasantry on Wiki. On or about 31 Aug 2014 User:Serten left a message in German on my user talk page (see: "Jetz aber"). I responded at Sertens user talk page in German (see: E CLAMPUS VITUS, usw).

Wickology placed a template "Speak english" on my user talk page and Sertens. I believed Wickiology was some sort of Wiki-functionary. I responded at my user talk page because I perceived Wickiologys user and talk pages to be unfriendly and contradictory. I never received a reply.

Wickiology then placed template "Not a forum" on my user talk page.

I presume Wickiology followed Serten to my user talk page. Prior to 31 August 2014 I never heard of either of them.

I feel Wickiologys actions are in poor form. I concede English is probably not Wickiologys primary language. After reading all this here, I have cause to surmise there is something behind Wickiologys editing other than presumptive ESL. I wish at this time to keep these opinions to myself, and never want hear from Wickiology again.

Help stop climate change here: Tjlynnjr (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC) .

Tjlynnjr, the fact that you are getting it all wrong is now my headache. Perhaps you felt here is a ground for criticisms. Your basis for criticism is illegitimate because I was right for my action. There is nothing unfriendly on my talk page, maybe because I don't communicate in german or any other foreign language you love. On that memorable day, during my usual RC patrol, I found this on Serten talk page and this on Tjlynnjr talk page. Based on my understanding of policy and Per WP:SPEAKENGLISH I believed it was necessary for editors to communicate in english language on english wikipedia so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. To relief me of typing, I templated the both of them. Serten gave a compliment on his talk page. Tjlynnjr apologized that he was not familiar with wikipedia policy. Here is what he said..@Serten: @Wikicology: I apologise. I will also apologise to User:Serten at his page in case he was offended. I have been here at enWiki since March 2008; a fair time, but I am not technically skilled (in this HTML ? stuff, or what ever it is I am doing now) or well versed in Wiki protocol etc. I only discovered the "Ping User" feature a few days ago (August 2014). That is what he said to cut the history short. Serten responded with Wikicology is formal but friendly. Imma mir da Ruah (keep a stiff upper lip ;) Serten (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC). Am totally lost to see the same Tjlynnjr coming here to criticize again. What a life!!! Wikicology (talk) 22:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry for butting in here but I noticed that at much of Microbial growth monitoring techniques that this editor recently created appears to be copied almost word-for-word from this book, starting at "Monitoring microbial growth in culture". I'm still fairly new and I'm not sure what to do about copyright problems like this so I thought I could bring it up here. Thanks. --Ca2james (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing this out, Ca2james. It is thanks to people like you that Misplaced Pages continues to exist, because Misplaced Pages does not (mostly) get copyright complaints or lawsuits. I have tagged the page in question for speedy deletion. I await an explanation from User:Wikicology. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks, Demiurge1000. There are two more articles created by Wikicology with copyright issues: Transcription activators in eukaryotes, on which I've placed a speedy deletion tag, and Molecular tools for gene study, where I've made a note on the Talk page. When the latter article was created it was copied and pasted from another source but it's since been edited by others and appears to no longer have copyright violations. I'm not sure that Wikicology understands copyright issues or why it's not acceptable to copy and paste from other sources to create an article, based on their response to my note on the Talk:Molecular tools for gene study page. --Ca2james (talk) 16:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Further, User:Wikicology, please could you explain why you think that this is your first unpleasantry on the English Misplaced Pages, when Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye already occurred? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not Wikicology experiencing their first unpleasantry on Misplaced Pages, but user:Tjlynnjr. The indentation used by Wikicology's for their reply to user:Tjlynnjr was insufficient. I changed it for clarity. - Takeaway (talk) 07:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Copyright issues is not a discussion for ANI. It can only be mention or reported here if an editor continues to violate the policy. If an article meet any of the criteria for speedy deletion (CSD), it should be tag appropriately and speedily deleted from wikipedia. Thank you so much Demiurge, I respect your ideology. I had decided to be quiet, as a result of blatant criticism and false accusation from certain editors whose comment is not from a NPOV. I can't ignore an editor like you. Regarding your question, that comment was not made by me. It was particularly made by Tjlynnjr above who felt that suggesting him to communicate in english language rather than german is unpleas. As for the AfD/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye, I don't have any problem with that because it was obvious that the article fails WP:GNG Thank you Demiurge. Wikicology (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm a bit worried about Wikicology's involvement with this AFC, having declined it as promotional and without sufficient establishment of notability. I don't see either of these issues when I read it myself and after a quick search on Google. - Takeaway (talk) 11:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Takeaway you need not to be worried sir. Am uncertain as to weather you had the opportunity to read the declined version. I want to let you know that the author of the draft has been improving it since on 13, August based on my advice. Infact he has also worked on it in the last few minutes today. I am sure that you only read the recent improved version as suggested by the link you provided above which actually pointed to the most recent improved version, contrary to the older version that was declined by wikicology here. In the older version, the first few lines claimed that the subject appears to be the first person to have obtain both MD and Ph.D in economics from university of pennsylvania, a claimed not supported by the references provided for verification. To save our time. As per the notability, the references you saw might appears much and sufficient to you but the majority of the references are primary sources which is insufficient to established notability. Article on BLP must be well-sourced with independent reliable sources. eventualism does not applies to BLP. In addition, if a submitted draft is decline, the essence of doing that is to improve it and the creator can resubmit it after improvement. If you saw some reliable sources on google as you had claimed, you can help the creator to simply adding it and am sure you will be thanked for doing that. Thank you for your comments. Wikicology (talk) 14:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually did read the declined version. As for primary sources, it is not that it is forbidden to use them per WP rules, it is just advised not to use them to prevent editors here on Misplaced Pages to engage in original research. As far as I could see, the primary sources used in the proposed article, were used only as proof for such simple statements as "Harris has published widely on smoking and health". The whole list of references after this statement is just a list of articles that Harris had written. In my opinion, knowing a bit about who Harris is, and how influential he has been for the formulation of laws regarding smoking, it was hardly necessary. The problem with a person such as Harris is that he is widely known in academic circles and with policy makers, just not with a wider public. As such, there are no easy-to-find quotable articles about his notability. I found that the article that you declined was sufficient for WP. It doesn't need to be perfect. I'm surprised that the editor hasn't given up. I've hardly seen an article where so much of the content is referenced. - Takeaway (talk) 14:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I just accepted the revised article on Harris; I think there's enough evidence he meets WP:PROF. Naturally, there's room for further improvement, as for all articles. I may of course be wrong, and anyone who disagrees is welcome to question the matter at AFD. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• With respect to copyright, I saw the speedy tag on Transcription activators in eukaryotes, and while checking it, I saw the message Wikicology left on its talk page trying to explain why it should not be deleted: Science related articles are different from other articles. They often follow the same principles. A cell is a cell in any source. This misunderstanding of copyright in my opinion is sufficiently fundamental that I do not think this editor should be reviewing articles or AfCs, or advising new editors. I think the privilege to review AfC should be withdrawn, and there is need for a topic ban on reviewing at NewPage Patrol. He clearly does not know the basics himself. The principle is that Competence is Required. As for copyright, I've given him a level 4 warning for copyvio, and I intend to block him altogether if there is another such violation in the future. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I thank all amiable community members who has made one or more comments, advices and recommendations towards the improvements of my edit behavior. However, I beseech the entire community members to please forgive me and give me a benefit of doubt ( not to sanction me with a topic banned on NPP or withdrawn my privilege to review AFC). I have passion for this project. I joined the community with an intention to improve it and not with a motive for disruption. I had been very active ever since I joined the project with the desire to become an administrator someday. However, I know that my dream will surely come true. Intense sanction may not allow this dream to come true. This discussion has really exposed me to a lot of things and I will make use of all the advices provided above which I have already put into play and I promise to abide and adhere strictly to every policies. On this note I beg you to temper justice with mercy. Wikicology (talk) 20:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wikicology: For Pete's sake, don't even start thinking about being an administrator right now. It's not necessary to be an administrator to be able to effectively contribute to Misplaced Pages, so please just focus on the advice we are giving you. I, JethroBT 02:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you sir. I promise to focus on the advices. Wikicology (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• It would seem that Wikicology has used the reasons for deleting this AfD, an article which he had created, and applied it to his reviewing of the AfC of Jeffrey Harris (Economist, Physician) without truly understanding that a very notable academic is not the same as one non-notable academic. After quickly scanning his contributions list I have also noticed that Wikicology in some instances (, , ) reverts edits without understanding that these reverts were not at all contributing to Misplaced Pages. Edits such as this one where a whole list of exhibitions and projects by the artist were deleted with the edit summary "Cleanup unneccesary section", and this one do not give me much confidence that this editor actually knows what they are doing. Tagging this edit as vandalism, and also warning the editor, was totally unnecessary, especially in the light that said editor was in the process of improving the article. Adding this article for PROD without giving a valid reason. After Wikicology is warned about their actions by RHaworth, they apologise. Apologising after incorrect actions seems like a constant in their behaviour. It seems to me that this user wants to do too much, and too soon, hoping to become an important editor and administrator here on Misplaced Pages as quickly as possible. - Takeaway (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• In this thread as well as the past examples Takeaway points out, I only see generic apologies and promises to follow "advice". Not anything specific enough to indicate that they get it and know exactly what they need to stop doing. I've seen this pattern many, many times before with other editors, all of whom may be very well meaning but have no real self-awareness of their limitations nor an inclination to really listen to other editors except when they are threatened with sanctions. So you have someone with only a few months and a thousand edits under their belt thinking they know better than every long time veteran (as evidenced here, as already noted above)... That kind of arrogance rather overrides any good faith intentions to improve the encyclopedia, particularly when it's exacerbated by difficulties with the English language. Really the only thing that makes any difference is topic banning and mentoring, though that typically just limits the damage rather than encouraging actual growth. I just don't see a real prospect for improvement here, just more of the same. And the recently discovered copyright problems should be the last straw. postdlf (talk) 16:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I came across Wikicology a couple of months ago. My thoughts were, this editor has got hold of a copy of "How to become a Misplaced Pages Administrator in 6 months". This imaginary tome details the successful techniques one must follow to become a guaranteed administrator within 6 months of starting to edit Misplaced Pages. It instructs editors to choose an impressive screen name, to do as little actual content editing as possible, and do all that content editing on uncontroversial articles (you don't want to get sanctions or be involved in disputes), to regularly create a few articles (obscure and uncontroversial ones of course), to give out lots of advice, including posting things on users pages (new editors are best for this - they don't talk back) and mentioning Misplaced Pages and "the project" a lot (if you act like an administrator and talk like an administrator, one day you will be one), to frequent areas frequented by administrators so that you get yourself noticed by administrators (you need to find that special one who will one day nominate you), and to do as much non-administrator administrating on Misplaced Pages as you can (such as AfDs, etc.). And absolutely never be funny / flippant / sarcastic - there is no place for humor on Misplaced Pages - it's a serious business. I wonder, what has Wikicology done to make it go so wrong? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

They messed up the "new editors are best for this - they don't talk back" part. Anyway, absent a formal proposal for some editing restrictions, we appear to have run out of steam here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Run out of steam"? Everyone agrees this editor has been a consistent problem across many areas. And it looks like yet another copy and paste copyvio was posted by him today, after User:DGG just warned him yesterday, and his response there is just baffling ("I just detected it too."). If you need it formalized, propose site ban as there is apparently no positive reason to permit Wikicology to continue to edit here in any capacity. Or, at minimum, indef block to be lifted only if someone agrees to mentor him (and Wikicology submits to this) and under the conditions that Wikicology is not to edit any articles until he demonstrates to the mentor's satisfaction that he understands how to respect copyright, and that until a consensus at ANI reverses it he is not to post anything in project space, not to review new articles, not to revert or undo any edits by another editor, and not to warn other editors, tell them what to do, or tell them what policy is or says. postdlf (talk) 22:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The copyvio content was already there before Wikicology started editing the article so indeed it has nothing to with them.

I've read a few suggestions on what actions would be best in this whole matter. I think that User:DGG's proposals here above are sound. I'm not here very often and normally only read this page as a source of amusement (oops) so I have no idea how to proceed with a formal proposal but my advise would be that Wikicology should limit their role here on Misplaced Pages for the foreseeable future, or be limited, to edit subjects where they they have real expertise instead of trying to be someone who knows everything. After a while, after gaining more knowledge on the inner workings of Misplaced Pages, they can proceed from there into other fields IF they are so inclined. - Takeaway (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Let us kindly assume that Wikicology will take that recommendation on board (as a suggestion - no AfC reviews, no new page patrolling, no giving advice to others, for a few months), and that DGG will indeed block Wikicology if they see them adding copyvio text again, and that no formal remedies are required. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I think before we can assume anything, we need a substantive comment from Wikicology that demonstrates they understand all of this. Not just generic promises and apologies. postdlf (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Postdlf can you please stop giving a wrong impression of me?. At least you won't take any credit for doing that. Am surprise that you could say here that I added a copyright content to Royal_Adelaide_Golf_Club. I never added any copyright content. I only added references. When I wanted to add the last reference to a particular section, I copied some sentences from the section to confirm the claim on google, there I discovered that copyright content was included in the section (not by me). Because of the nature of my browser, I must save a particular section before the next section. Immediately I save the section (without addition of any content not even the reference I wanted to add) I discovered it was tag for copyvio. by User:None but shining hours. He left a message on my talk page to ask if I wanted to fix the problem. He fixed it and later advised me to always verify for possible copyvio in an article before adding references so as not to give a wrong impression. Now user:Postdlf ran here to say that I added a copyvio content and even talking about site ban forgotten that he was once a new editor. Am not happy with this kind of behaviour. Every member of the community are suppose to behave as one family. Please leave comment that will help my edit behaviour and not comments full of critics.Wikicology (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Based on the advices provided by various experienced editors above, I had decided and agreed to limit myself to normal edit ( not to review AFC, NP, not to warn editors) for 3 months. This will enable me to learn more about how editors interact as well as learning the basic policy. I also need a mentor to guild and review my works. I thank you all. Wikicology (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems as if this case can be closed. I personally don't think that active monitoring by an experienced editor is needing during this period. Wikicology's latest article looks fine from what I could see: no copyvio and adequately referenced. Yes, there are some grammar and spelling mistakes but that can be easily taken care of in subsequent edits. Standard WP checks on new articles and edits in existing articles should suffice. Perhaps Wikicology could ask someone, once this 3 month period is over, to review their progress and verify that they have not violated anything (easily done by looking at Wikicology's talkpage and list of contributions), and advise them on how to proceed? - Takeaway (talk) 12:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology's self-agreed editing limits detailed above seem acceptable to me as an ordinary editor, as long as that "not warning editors" will also include not going around telling other editors what Misplaced Pages is or is not, what Misplaced Pages procedures are, and what "good" Misplaced Pages editors should do. I hope he comes to realise that people who edit Misplaced Pages with the purpose from the outset of becoming Misplaced Pages administrators are probably the worst people to actually be administrators. If Wikicology abandons all hope of becoming an administrator I bet his editing will dramatically improve. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have just reviewed a new article by Wikicology and unfortunately it is a mess. I have given them some advice and 24 hours to clean it up. If it is then still unsatisfactory, it will have to be put up for AfD. I am now very unsure if Wikicology can actually function here on the English Misplaced Pages on anything beyond very basic level editing such as cleaning up bare URLs. Very, very sorry... - Takeaway (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology has rewritten the article. After I had confronted them with my findings yesterday, that many of the original citations did nothing to support the content of the article and were only used to make the article look reliable, it has gone from 39 citations back to only 5, and it is now reduced to only two lines of text including the lead (see this dif). Wikicology is of course not at all happy with me any more, accusing me of WP:BITE after my message here yesterday evening to keep this thread from being archived, stating that they are a new user so are not expected to know better while still arguing that all of the fluff citations supported the content. This comes from someone who, until a few days ago, was going around Misplaced Pages "advising" people what and what not to do, and "helping" with AfC's .

Apparently, the self-imposed limit to only do "normal editing" did not, in their mind, entail staying away from AfD either (see their latest contribs). Refraining from giving their views at AfD had of course not been mentioned expressly by other editors here in this thread...

They seem to be incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions. From today's interaction on their talkpage (see User_talk:Wikicology#Your_report_at_ANI): "You said here that the references are too much. I removed them based on your advice. I also removed bulk of the article content. Do you still expect me to includes the references you once condemn?". What I actually said was that the article's content was not backed by the multitude of irrelevant citations and that it should be cleaned up and rewritten. Wikicology seems to just make up excuses as they go along, and deny all responsibility when things go wrong for them. Having now been confronted with this side of them, I can understand what WikiDan61 meant with "unnecessarily belligerent attitude". I had given them the benefit of the doubt, thinking that they would have learned something from all the advice here above and on their talkpage, but now I just don't know what to do any more with someone who exhibits this sort of behaviour. - Takeaway (talk) 21:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Accusations of "vandalism", and disruptive editing across many articles

This is elevating to the level absurdity, at this point. I'm sure I'm going to boomeranged to pieces, but I'm just upset, so I'll air my grievances. I previously brought a complaint against Niele (talk · contribs) at this forum earlier in the week. That was unproductive, and hence I abandoned it in favour of a WP:DRN case. However, despite this, and despite being warned about the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions, Niele has continued to disruptively edit across Ukrainian crisis-related articles. He constantly reverts edits by accusing people of "vandalism" and "PoV pushing" in edit summaries at every turn. He previously derided me as a Marxist propaganda monger, which is something one can find out about at the last AN/I thread. He has again accused me of "agenda pushing", this time after I made a request for closure at WP:AN. He has continued to attempt to right great wrongs across many articles, and has not listened to anyone. His version of "consensus" appears to rely on whether people agree with him. At this point, no one has. I can frankly say that I believe that Niele is not here to build an encyclopaedia. Even after the last AN/I thread, where he was warned by Mr. Stradivarius not make personal attacks, even after he was warned about Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions, he continued this behaviour. In fact, he has escalated it. I suggest a topic ban, under the banner of the Eastern European discretionary sanctions, from Ukraine-crisis related articles. RGloucester — ☎ 18:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

User RGloucester was warned about not starting edit wars, but he dit starts it again. I did not participate or react when he reverts al of my edits. He personaly theatend me with 'Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions' after previous episode. While this was not discussed but his personal choise. The Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions also count's for him and I ask that he is banned instead.

The past day he is completly dissecting the 'Russian military intervention in Ukraine'-page. A page that he doesn't wants to exist, like he didn't want the 'Russo-Ukrainian war'-page and the 'Russian invasian'-page (made by other wikipedia users. Clearing parts of the infobox, removing the internation reactions to a subpage of donbaswar, removing sources Russian unit's, the shelling by Russia over the border into Ukraine,... all in a POV-push to hide the participation of Russia in this war as much as possible and portraying this war as a internal Ukrainian war.

I ask that user RGloucester is banned on basis of Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions. because he is undoing the work of many wikipedians in a constant POV puch to hide sourced info. --Niele (talk) 19:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I will let this stand, given how absurd it is. I will just say that I love how spinning off International reactions to the war in Donbass is considered a bad thing, given the severe length problems that war in Donbass has. I think Niele should take the advice of another editor. RGloucester — ☎ 19:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

From a non-admin/uninvolved user's prospective, RGloucester seems to have acted in good faith, bringing the matter to WP:DRN. In contrast, I concur that Niele has been warned about personal attacks and unfounded claims of vandalism, yet continues to accuse users of vandalism. Now I'm sure both parties have good intentions, but in my (non-admin) opinion, Niele needs to read WP:Vandalism, stop with the unfounded claims of vandalism, and constructively discuss these matters in order to reach consensus in this highly controversial topic rather than unilaterally decide that his way is right. As far as any administrative action that should or shouldn't take place, let the admins and the ArbCom decide that; I'm just a lowly Wikipedian. PCHS-NJROTC 17:48, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The original two articles (intervention) and (invasion) by Russia from wich the international reactions came, were not about a dombas war but about the military intervention/warconduct by Russia. Now these reactions are stuffed away under a page of the donbas-war claiming that it is only about the month august.--Niele (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You neutrality is so great that you write about the 'Russian invasion in Ukraine' article (not written by me) things like: "If this article is going to stay, we might as well make it humorous."

As I tried to explaine you in the previous episode, this is disturbing to people and covering up a war is a sensitive thing. A war in wich 900 Ukrainian soldiers and 200-400 Russian soldiers died is not humorous or an absurd something and trying to hide it, is not respectfull to the people who died fighting it.--Niele (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a poor venue for this type of complaint. I suggest filing this at WP:AE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I would rather not be forced to carry on across many noticeboards. This is giving me enough of a headache already, and I believe user conduct can be evaluated here as well as it can there. RGloucester — ☎ 20:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) There's serious merit in RGloucester's not wanting to post across boards. As it is, a DRN involving Niele has been closed recently with issues surrounding Niele's general approach to the project being deemed spurious. Dragging this from venue to venue is draining valuable administrator and contributor time and energy. I think the issue can, and should be, dealt with here rather than having to start all over again at ARBEE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I think this is wrong noticeboard for claims about alleged violations covered by Arbcom discretionary sanctions. Besides, our current vandalism instructions were written in such manner that contributors acting in a good faith may decide that removal of sourced text was vandalism. My very best wishes (talk) 13:14, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

This is the right board as much as any board is the right board. We are not a bureaucracy here, and I can tell that your comments are driven by a PoV rather than by any interest in the disruptive behaviour carried out by Niele. It has nothing to do with "violations of discretionary sanctions", which makes no sense. It has to do with an editor's disruptive behaviour and use of personal attacks. I suggested using those sanctions to remedy the situation, but I'm open to any solution suggest by an uninvolved party. RGloucester — ☎ 17:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

You just made the same request about Niele - above on this noticeboard. It was not supported, and you closed it. Now, you repeated the same request here, and it was not supported again (no one reacted during many days). Therefore, I think the suggestion by A Quest For Knowledge was a good one. I think you should close this ANI request and either drop completely the issue (this is my recommendation!) or resubmit it to WP:AE.My very best wishes (talk) 19:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not the "same request". He continued the behaviour across multiple pages despite being warned at that prior thread, and despite my starting of a DRN. I'm not going to ignore disruptive editing across multiple pages, and your attempt to make me go around in circles to different noticeboards is an example of the bureaucratic nonsense that we do not do here. Merely because people did not respond does not mean that they either support or oppose the behaviour of Niele. RGloucester — ☎ 20:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact is that the editor in question is making personal attacks on more and more editors as a result of his/her WP:BATTLEGROUND approach. Until now, I have had no direct dealings with Neile. This was inevitably an 'only a matter of time' scenario for anyone editing on subject matter Neile works on. I, too, have now been swept into the conspiracy this editor perceives as existing. Arguing for keeping a WP:DPAGE as "Strong Keep Again, POV-deletion-campaign by a couple of users to remove and hide as much as possible of Russia's participation of the war it started against Ukraine. Entries keep being removed by same users claiming there are none..." is unacceptable tendentious editing. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attack campaign being waged on User-page

contains a long paragraph telling the reader exactly where to find me, without mentioning me by name, but very nearly - and telling the reader that I am a Sockpuppet.

"Pass a Method (mainly edits religious and sexual topics, has a significant interest in or preference for LGBT topics); recently caught him after he tried to evade scrutiny. Take note that there is only one UK-based Misplaced Pages editor interested in politics and Islam who misspells the word grammar (that I'm aware of anyway), and that editor is Pass a Method. Misspelling the word is what this editor recently did, and that editor was blocked as a Pass a Method WP:Sockpuppet (though for far more than simply misspelling the word grammar). Also take note that because Pass a Method discarded his Pass a Method Misplaced Pages account by using Misplaced Pages:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/WikiBreak Enforcer to enforce a self-imposed WP:Wikibreak until the year 2020, it is a bit trickier reporting him for WP:Sockpuppetry. Either way, editing in the same exact areas as he did before and so soon after his topic ban and WP:Sockpuppetry, while pretending that he is a new editor, is a violation of the WP:Clean start policy; so he can very likely be sanctioned for that. If you find an editor doing several or more of the following things, that editor is very likely a Pass a Method WP:Sockpuppet: Significantly editing the Boko Haram article and other Islamic articles (I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article). Editing religious topics in general, including the addition of anything about Pope Francis (whether it's the Pope Francis article or, for example, an addition to the Recreational drug use article about him). Editing LGBT articles. Editing political articles. Editing sexual articles. Editing medical and/or anatomy articles. Editing science topics such as the Big Bang article, or topics about black holes; the Stellar black hole article, for example, could be a candidate. Visiting the WP:Help desk. Focusing on leads. Focusing on British topics; using British spelling. Using editing summaries that are meant to deceive. Using Urban Dictionary as a source, whether it's at the Erection article, or, for example, the Roach (smoking) article. Adding a picture of someone smoking to their user page or talk page. Makes notes on his user page of the articles he's edited, soon after editing those articles."

This is the whole paragraph. I was advised, after I tried to delete it myself, to explain very carefully why I "think" it's about me. () This was after she had attacked me in an edit summary, , stating in the edit summary "your edit summary was deceptive...as usual" (which, on her talk page, you can see she apologises for, and admits, finally, I am not the sockpuppet).

Every fact, from "If you find an editor doing several or more of the following things, that editor is very likely a Pass a Method WP:Sockpuppet:" onwards is directly describing me, compiled from going through my edit history no doubt. (Except the bit about the Erection article). I wrote the entire current Boko Haram article. She first confronted me with her allegation over a month ago, while I was still writing it.

• For proof this statement should be sufficient "Significantly editing the Boko Haram article and other Islamic articles (I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article)" especially the part in parentheses. (I wrote the article without the collaboration of any other editors).

• Another reason it is clearly about me: I did indeed use the Urban Dictionary as a source on Roach (smoking).

• Also, I did indeed have Van Gogh's picture of a skeleton smoking a cigarette on my user page, for a month or two, until a couple of days ago.

• "Focussing on leads" - I have done this lately

• "Makes notes on his user page of the articles he's edited, soon after editing those articles"- yes, I do that.

Clearly, she has checked everything I do, and added it to the description, to make sure that readers find me.

I hope this is detailed enough. It's very long, but I was warned to be very clear. I would have thought it was immediately obvious, but 2 or 3 admins have refused to do anything about it, because it doesn't mention me by name. This is presumably all a big joke to them. I fail to see the humour.

One statement should suffice to prove everything I say: "(I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article)". If you look at the edit history of the BH article, you'll see what I mean. No one has made any substantial edit to that for months (except a couple of editors who insisted on adding a sentence or two to the "name" section).

Another very specific proof, "(whether it's the Pope Francis article or, for example, an addition to the Recreational drug use article about him)". I wrote most of the article and did indeed add a mention of the Pope.

And, as far as the attack being unsubstantiated, she has now finally admitted that she thinks it is "2%" likely that I am the sock. The sock cannot spell (one of the defining characteristics she mentions about him, above), and a quick look at his writing provides evidence of a very shaky grasp of the rules of grammar.

I have no idea why Flyer22 chose to target me in this way. She still claims to be absolutely certain that I have edited WP substantially before this account. As I have repeatedly explained to her, I never even found out how to use references before. But anyway, whatever her mysterious personal antagonism towards me, she has not responded to my requests on her talk page to remove it. The last thing she said (on her talk page, after admins blocked me from deleting the userpage attack myself) was that I am not (or only 2% likely to be) the sockpuppet, and that she apologises for attacking me in an edit summary, and that she has nothing more to say to me.

Clearly, she thinks she should be entitled to attack me, out of personal spite, for however long she sees fit, and the the admins who stopped me from deleting it possibly share her view. So I just thought I'd find out if that is indeed the policy, that long-standing editors can hound new editors out of WP if they see fit, out of personal spite (or other personal reasons, I have no idea). The sockpuppet's inability to follow the rules of grammar or spelling make it obvious at a glance that it's not me. I have now wasted a huge amount of time on this issue. I hope it can be resolved without any more fuss, since it is a crystal clear case of a sustained personal attack (and I have no idea what motivated it). I would like the entire section removed: clearly, she has no ability to track sockpuppets, and would simply use the section to put more "cryptic" clues about what a terrible editor and fraud I am.

I asked the editor who protected her userpage after I tried to delete it to get the stuff about me removed, but he repeatedly claims that it's not about me. This is presumably a private joke which I'm not in on. I am disgusted at the way I've been treated, being hounded over an imbecilic allegation, and told that material attacking me is "not" attacking me, by an administrator.

Please do something to demonstrate that WP isn't the shabby little club (, an admin cynically protecting his friend's right to attack me if she wants) that it has now started to appear to me as. On this admins page, another editor has stated that I started editing on Sept 10, I notice. What is that about? Ive been editing for months. It seems like there is a campaign against me for some reason (I would like to know why, but it's not important). zzz (talk) 16:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You deleted the entire page repeatedly , , and did not respond to Flyer22's offer. --NeilN 17:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Theres definetly a whiff of incivility going on along with vandalism on the user page, im starting to hear a soft woosh woosh. Amortias (T)(C) 17:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Posting an accusation against another editor - even in personal Talk space - is not AGF. It is correct that zzz should not edit Flyer22's user page, however, neither should Flyer22 be using her user page to attack other editors. If there is an issue of sockpuppetry, it needs to be raised in SPI. If there's not enough evidence for a SPI case then the matter should be dropped. Everyone should have the ability to defend themselves against insinuation and accusation, that's why we have formal arbitration and remediation processes. Posting these as "scarlet letters" on personal user space creates a situation where the accused has no opportunity for defense. There is no possible good outcome to this; it will inevitably lead to disruption and increasingly heated WP:CIVIL issues between Flyer22 and zzz. It should be addressed and corrected right now, either through voluntary action or a compulsory edit to the section in question. DocumentError (talk) 17:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If you didn't edit as Pass A Method then the information cannot be about you. Your attempt to conflate the issue and say that it is about you is worrying and raises WP:COMPETENCE issues. FWIW shabby little club's are some of my favorite places and I have met some of the nicest people that I have known in them. MarnetteD|Talk 17:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

While that's true, Flyer22 behaving toward zzz in an accusatory fashion in articles they both edit has to be taken into account within the context of the monologue on her Talk page. Saying things like "your edit summary was deceptive...as usual" in edit summaries addressed to zzz, etc., can only be designed to "poison the well" against zzz. If one wants to believe another editor is a sock, that's fine, don't bring it up in public, though, unless you're prepared to make an accusation in SPI. I frequently see this where an editor is (often justifiably) convinced another editor is a sock but, instead of filing SPI, pursues "street justice" against them by making insinuations in public space in apparent attempts to delegitimize the suspect editor's contributions in the eyes of others. There is no outcome from organizing a WikiLynchMob that could possibly be construed as benefiting the content quality of WP; this is only and serially disruptive. DocumentError (talk) 18:01, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(mec) There is more at Recreational Drug Use, admin only and more advice. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 17:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes there is a whiff of incivility, which I am largely wo blame for, and I regret that. The incivility started when Flyer22 attacked me in this edit summary. I went to CBWeather's page to blow off steam, and she followed me there, and raised her accusations of being a sockpuppet, being detrimental to articles, making deceptive edit summaries, and having a history of diruptive editing, and a personal attacks issue. I very strongly disagree with all of the above, and she provides no evidence. She eventually did apologise for the edit summary, after I had discovered and tried to delete the attack page.

Neil, I didnt notice her offer because it was on your page. I left friendly messages on her page, but there was no reply. In any case, I can't take the offer of removing half a dozen words seriously. Oh yes, and I told her why I was deleting the page.

Marnette, the attack piece claims that I am the puppet. I deny the accusation. I guess you think I am being unreasonable somehow. I do not know why you think this though. zzz (talk) 18:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, "attacked me in this edit summary : " zzz (talk) 18:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Either get rid of the lies about me off your page or I will delete it is not "friendly". What are you looking for here? A modification to some text on her user page? if so, I suggest you propose what you want changed. --NeilN 18:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

That was written immediately after I discovered the large attack paragraph. Please read the very polite and fiendly messages after that. zzz (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I want the sockpuppet section removed. zzz (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The section about Pass a method does seem a bit far stretched and all encompassing. I've touched more than one of those bases as have multiple other editors. Amortias (T)(C) 18:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

As have I. This essentially describes a measurable percentage of editors on WP; not just zzz. The only possible purpose this could serve is for future use as a cudgel during editing disputes. And, in fact, it appears this is how Flyer22 is using it. Everyone who edits WP should do so unarmed. "Armoring up" before editing an article is not in the collaborative spirit of WP. DocumentError (talk) 18:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no need to "armor up" in the way that you describe me as doing; if the editor is a WP:Sockpuppet, they shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages anyway, unless it's a legitimate use of an alternative account; I won't apologize for keeping a lookout for those editors, publicly letting others know to do so, and/or keeping those editors off Misplaced Pages. Flyer22 (talk) 19:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that another insinuation that I'm guilty, it sounds a lot like one? And since I'm guilty it serves me right. Or something. zzz (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

So the question becomes, are Misplaced Pages editors allowed to keep a list of known sockmasters and their editing habits on their user page? --NeilN 18:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The sensible answer to that would be "if they know what they are doing". She clearly doesn't (and has caused me a load of grief as a result). zzz (talk) 18:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yes would be my emphatic answer. But when the editing habits of sockmasters include visiting the helpdesk and editing articles including sexual or political themes does seem to be stretching good faith a fraction. Amortias (T)(C) 18:48, 15 September 2014‎ (UTC)

Signedzzz, if I didn't know what I was doing, I would not keep catching WP:Sockpuppets, including Pass a Method WP:Sockpuppets; it was made very clear to you at CambridgeBayWeather's talk page that I have caught many WP:Sockpuppets, and can rarely be fooled by any of them.

And, Amortias, touching one or more of those bases is one thing; touching all of those bases is another. And in my several years of editing this site, editing various topics, I have not come around many, several or even a few British, Islamic-focused editors interested in all of those matters and behaving in those specific ways. The fact that I have not is how I have easily identified Pass a Method time and time again. I will not remove the section in question, especially since I believe that it is helpful to editors. But, like I recently noted on my talk page, I have edited it so that it doesn't seemingly point directly at Signedzzz. As for the rest of this discussion, I have no comment. And this will likely be my only post in this section. If I post in it again, it will be one more time and then I'm done with it. Flyer22 (talk) 18:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Its the use of several I feel might be part of the issue. If it was rephrased to lean towards the majority or even most of these things that would seem more accurate from how ive read and interpreted your statement above. Amortias (T)(C) 18:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(I'm not Islamic focused, by the way) zzz (talk) 18:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC) (For the record, the Erection edit was Passamethod, not me). zzz (talk) 18:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Amortias, the whole second half of the paragraph is basically a list of everything I've done. It's an attack piece, pure and simple. zzz (talk) 20:12, Today (UTC+1)

Flyer22 is at it again? Will she ever learn? Caden 20:06, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Caden, to break my "won't reply again" rule, what do you even mean by that? Whatever you mean, you're wrong. Flyer22 (talk) 20:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The list on the user page, User:Flyer22#WP:Sockpuppet watch, is a clear violation of WP:POLEMIC. There's no indication that this is material that is going to be used in a timely manner, or ever, for a specific dispute resolution. User pages aren't supposed to have Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. It doesn't matter how accurate it is as a list of the worst editors wikipedia has ever seen, it's a list targeting specific editors. I haven't looked closely at the behavior of the OP here, but the enemy list there is clearly a problem no matter what else happened. There is no imminent use here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I knew that someone was going to bring up the WP:POLEMIC argument; nope, I don't see it as WP:POLEMIC, and won't see it as such. And your calling it an enemy list is simplifying things dramatically. Flyer22 (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course someone was going to bring up WP:POLEMIC. It's a list of editors along with your assessment of their faults, kept for long-term, relating to no-specific-event purposes. It's one of the clearest violations of WP:POLEMIC I could imagine seeing.__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

If you'd kept that junk off-line, then nobody would have to had to deal with this thread right now. That's why this sort of thing shouldn't be on your user page.__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

And I don't agree that it is a WP:POLEMIC violation; my opinion on that won't be changing. Flyer22 (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You can be as "I can't hear you" entrenched in your opinion as you want; My guess is that any other editor that compares User:Flyer22#WP:Sockpuppet watch with WP:POLEMIC will come to a different opinion. __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

If you "knew that someone was going to bring up the WP:POLEMIC argument" that seems to indicate you were aware that what you were posting was suspect right out of the gate. At this point the only question that remains is why you insist on keeping this clearly divisive information up? DocumentError (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

@Flyer22. Yes it is an enemy list that you have on your page. You are not fooling anyone. Caden 20:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Elaqueate, disagreeing with you is not playing WP:I didn't hear that. And as for the section being junk, it is not; it is a section that helps to identify highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets, quite the opposite of what I interpret WP:POLEMIC to be. And we are dealing with that section right now because Signedzzz did not like my reply to him in an edit summary and took to obsessively posting at CambridgeBayWeather's talk page, and then at my talk page; in other words, he seemingly can't let anything go. Once I made the contents of my user page very clear to him, he sought to remove a section that identifies WP:Sockpuppets, when the section does not mention him. Others have pointed out that the section does not mention him and have stated that the section is fine. I couldn't care in the least that you think I should remove a section about highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets, especially since any of the listed WP:Sockpuppets would want that section removed.

DocumentError, I knew that the WP:POLEMIC argument would be made because I have several years of experience at this site and know of some of the flaws in arguments that go on at it, including all sorts of WP:Wikilawyering. I don't believe in your "work with the highly problematic editors" rationale. If they show up at an article with a newly registered account or as an IP address and I easily recognize them as past editors, then, yes, I will want those editors gone. I care not if you see it as me trying to control articles. Those editors were blocked and/or banned for valid reasons, and I should not have to state, "Kumbaya, let us all work together."

Caden, and you are not fooling me as to why you've posted in this section (hint, hint, yes, I remember your ridiculous merge proposal from earlier in the year, and don't remember interacting with you at all before that point, which is why your "Flyer22 is at it again" argument above is as ludicrous as that aforementioned merge proposal). Neither is Elaqueate. But do carry on with your attempts to remove the contents from my user page. Even if the specific users are removed, I will readd a section there about WP:Sockpuppets, how to spot them and some of the articles WP:Sockpuppets frequently visit. Flyer22 (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The section all but mentions me by name, right down to every article I've edited, and "I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article". the fact that an administrator supported you until I brought the matter here, is a separate issue. zzz (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I already removed the "main/continuous" part; you know that. And more than simply one WP:Administrator has supported me on having that section. Flyer22 (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: That the community ask User:Flyer22 to remove negatively-focussed lists of editors from their user page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User pages can only be used for purposes that are acceptable to the community. In the past, publishing privately-compiled lists of editors on a user-page, when that list is based on previous disputes, sanctions, perceived faults, etc. (even when accurate), has been seen by the community as needlessly disruptive. Under "What may I not have in my user pages?", WP:POLEMIC restricts:

Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed.

Flyer22 is free to keep whatever notes they want privately if it helps them in their encyclopaedic work. Keeping it in Misplaced Pages space, long-term, without regard to any specific or current dispute, only invites needless disruption. Flyer22's list contains non-banned editors who are blocked, and as everyone knows, no block is necessarily forever. The fact that this thread exists demonstrates that these sorts of user-page lists are disruptive to encyclopaedia work, even when compiled with the best of intentions. A user page list is not the appropriate way of dealing with future problems with sockpuppets, and Flyer22 has indicated they are confident "recognising" problems without it. If some of the material on the user page is considered by the community to rise to the level of "Personal attack" then WP:BLPTALK also applies.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: I told Elaqueate above (my "21:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)" post), "And as for the section being junk, it is not; it is a section that helps to identify highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets, quite the opposite of what I interpret WP:POLEMIC to be. And we are dealing with that section right now because Signedzzz did not like my reply to him in an edit summary and took to obsessively posting at CambridgeBayWeather's talk page, and then at my talk page; in other words, he seemingly can't let anything go. Once I made the contents of my user page very clear to him, he sought to remove a section that identifies WP:Sockpuppets, when the section does not mention him. Others have pointed out that the section does not mention him and have stated that the section is fine. I couldn't care in the least that you think I should remove a section about highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets, especially since any of the listed WP:Sockpuppets would want that section removed." I also stated above, "Even if the specific users are removed, I will readd a section there about WP:Sockpuppets, how to spot them and some of the articles WP:Sockpuppets frequently visit." Flyer22 (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

And WP:Disruptive to have that section? No, not in my opinion. One editor causing a fuss about it because he obsessively posts about matters, so much so that he received a clear warning about that type of posting? No, that doesn't equal WP:Disruptive on my part. But carry on. Flyer22 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You are welcome to post general information. This isn't about whether a single person on your list objects to it; negatively-focussed lists of editors are divisive. This is true regardless of this particular editor and regardless of whether all the editors are "known scoundrels". You have a list that contains more editors than the one currently complaining. And it doesn't sound like you're using the public list to detect sock puppets, because it's based on your private opinions, which you know whether they're on your user page or not. Editors should not be using their user pages as long-standing free-floating personal criminal investigation material.__ E L A Q U E A T E 22:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I am welcome to post what I have posted regarding these highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets until the community deems that I am not allowed to do so. And, no, at the time of this post, I don't see that they have already deemed that...all because of your broad application of WP:POLEMIC. It's broad applications of WP:POLEMIC, like yours, that I see as detrimental to Misplaced Pages, as if we should not dare publicly speak of highly problematic editors and publicly list ways of identifying them. Yes, I use that list to detect WP:Sockpuppets. And I know of editors who have used it to identify Pass a Method. I already explained in the section immediately above this one why the section is on my user page; I will continue to stand by that. Flyer22 (talk) 22:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

No one could catch the sockpuppet Passamethod with your information, because the vast majority of the information you fraudulently supply is specifically about me, including specific edits I have made. Therefore you make it less likely for sockpuppets to be caught, by deliberately spreading disinformation.zzz (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Sigh again. When you get stuck on something, you really get stuck on something, don't you? And then you ignore any suggestion, such as my "23:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)" suggestion below, to alleviate or remove your concern. Flyer22 (talk) 01:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose with caveat. If the information about those editors is correct and they are not in good standing, then I don't see that it is any different from any entry on WP:LTA. Since three are blocked and one has previous for persistent sockpuppetry, the only one I would remove is Scientiom, who does not appear to be under any sanction. Black Kite (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The main one Passamethod, flyer22 has supplied all of my details so as to convince people that it is me (see above). It is this that is the clearest case of personal attack. I am in good standing and not a sockpuppet, by the way. zzz (talk) 23:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

This is the crux of the matter. The information on her page is about Pass a method, not you; if that data on the modus operandi of that editor and their sockpuppets is accurate, there is no issue here. Black Kite (talk) 23:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but the information about Passamethod on her page is actually about me. It is therefore not accurate because I am not a sockpuppet. zzz (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

She stated in Passamethod's description "I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article". How could this not be about me? And there are other examples, above of things she has clearly inserted about me int Passamethod's supposed biography. In the 2nd half of the para, everything is about me, gleaned no doubt from my edit history etc, except the one edit at the Erection article, which was passamethod. I thought that all this had been well-established already. zzz (talk) 23:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Black Kite, the proof that they are master WP:Sockpuppets is on their user pages/user talk pages. And their WP:Sockpuppets show what type of editing they continued to engage in. As for Scientiom, it's partly my fault that he has no current sanctions. Even though he has been blocked multiple times for WP:Sockpuppeting, as that link shows, I am willing to remove any mention of him from my user page. Flyer22 (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support removal of Scientiom only - As this editor is under no sanctions the rest appear to be blocked editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC) Changed to support per below - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  I'm curious. Are you saying you'd be fine with a person keeping a public user-page list of editors they've disagreed with, as long as those editors had received certain blocks? __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  This isn't that list so your question is irrelevant. This is a list of sockmasters Flyer22 has dealt with. Agreeing or disagreeing with a sock's edits is not the point. They're not supposed to be editing at all. --NeilN 23:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  Of course currently sanctioned sockmasters shouldn't be editing. That's a non sequitur. But this seems to imply that an editor could have a list of people they've disagreed with in the past, prominently displayed on their user page, as long as they're otherwise faced some common sanction. This list doesn't seem constructive for more than warning people to be wary of people using British spelling on articles involving British topics. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Specifically, warning people to be wary of me, because I am a sockpuppet of Passamethod, apparently.zzz (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The "list" is in fact disinformation, as far as helping catch sockpuppets, because it is (in the case of Passamethod), simply a list of very specific things I have done and am doing, put next to Passamethod's name. This means people will not spot Passamethod, because they will assume it is me. I cannot understand how anything like that could be considered useful in any way, shape or form.zzz (talk) 00:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The information about Passamethod is all fabricated, since it is in fact simply a list of things about me.zzz (talk) 00:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Specifically, the second half of the para, with all the specifics: "Significantly editing the Boko Haram article and other Islamic articles (I mean any editor who is the current main/continuous editor of the Boko Haram article). " and onwards, with one detail about Passamethod added, the "Erection edit". How is tacking on your enemy's information next to a known sock puppet helpful exactly?zzz (talk) 00:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If people interpret the section as simply "be wary of people using British spelling on articles involving British topics" (and I'm certain that no one will interpret it that way), then they are not reading that section properly. Flyer22 (talk) 23:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

And the "Focusing on British topics; using British spelling." part clearly needs tweaking if it is to stay, since it was not meant to indicate that Pass a Method uses British spelling on British topics, but rather to reiterate that he uses British spelling in general (since he's British). Flyer22 (talk) 00:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you have good motives, I just think that this approach is counter-productive and will only lead to more false positives and avoidable disputes. When sock-puppetry is suspected, file an SPI. If a particularly bad editor has been exposed, file them at LTA. It's cleaner. Publicly profiling editors on your user page may be personally satisfying but I think it's going to burn you and others more times than it will catch anybody. You've also claimed to be almost perfect at detecting subsequent sockpuppets, which somehow promotes less confidence about what you're using these profiles for. Accusing people of sock-puppetry is something that should be done with high levels of active and thoughtful caution, I don't think it should be generalized as fuzzy warning profiles in a user page section. I think you're right to look for sock puppets, but not to risk giving focussed grief to random editors that fit a very general profile. __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If I comment on your view any further, it would be me essentially repeating myself. So to spare significant repetition, I will reply this time with "I generally disagree." And regarding "false positives," the only way that a false positive could happen is in the case of Pass a Method, since it is his editing habits that I extensively detailed, and that is only if people don't take the piece on him there into full account. Either way, below (my "23:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)" post), I already offered to remove the part that Signedzzz objects to. Removing the entire section? I reiterate that my opinion on that will not change. Flyer22 (talk) 00:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

She is using the passamethod biography, which she simply took from my edit history and is pretending that it is Passamethod, but in fact 99% of it is about me. She uses this to conduct a personal vendetta against me. That is why I brought this matter here. Is it acceptable for her to continue insinuating with completely fabricated "evidence" that I am a sockpuppet? That seems very incomprehensible to me.zzz (talk) 23:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying a user page could say "A certain editor", name every page he's working on and has recently worked on, specify a few particular edits, " is a sockpuppet, so look out for him"? About any editor such as myself, with no evidence of malfeasance? Because that is exactly what the problem is, and why I brought the matter here.zzz (talk) 23:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Signedzzz, the content that you object to indeed concerns Pass a Method. But since that section continues to bother you, would you be fine with me restoring it to the condition it was in before I listed articles/topics that you have in common with Pass a Method? Flyer22 (talk) 23:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I have been chased off WP before several years ago by this same accusation. And I am sorely tempted again, both when you first confronted me with doom and a permanent cloud of near-certainty ("I don't have enough proof yet, but" and "No, I am not imagining things" etc) and again recently. I wonder if I get targeted especially. Your level of evidence for causing this grief & aggravation is basically anyone you don't like (who is UK and visits a very vague set of sites). The information about Passamethod doesn't bother me, as long as it's all about him. zzz (talk) 01:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Wrong regarding the Pass a Method issue, and anyone familiar with Pass a Method's problematic editing knows that you are wrong on that matter. My evidence on him has caught him time and time again. But I'm tired of repeating myself. You apparently don't get tired of repeating yourself, so continue on as you were then. Flyer22 (talk) 01:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I've no idea what the community thinks about this. In my honest opinion, you are a worse problem than sockpuppets. Certainly you are as far as I'm concerned. However, I am not qualified to make any specific suggestions about how the community should most appropriately act.zzz (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, sure, I'm "a worse problem than sockpuppets." I'm sure that many editors at this site will agree with you on that. *Laughs* Whatever the case, I have removed the content you objected to. Will I add back some articles that Pass a Method has been known to be problematic at? Perhaps. And if I do, don't come complaining to me about it, especially since it is about Pass a Method, not about you unless you are him. You can head straight here to WP:ANI again and see if you get good support for trying to force me to remove something from my user page that you don't like. Flyer22 (talk) 02:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, as per User:Elaqueate. Since this is a voluntary request of Flyer22, I further move that a Committee of Watch be convened to monitor Flyer22's user space in the event she chooses not to concede to consensus, so as to enable a possible early intervention/mediation into similar future issues before they balloons to the point that an editor feels victimized. DocumentError (talk) 02:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your proposal is laughable; as if I would not adhere to WP:Consensus. Unlike many people at this site who disregard that policy (it's policy, not simply a guideline), I highly respect it and do what I can to uphold it...until new consensus is formed. And as for WP:Administrators or other higher-ups (including WP:CheckUsers) watching my user page, like I told Signedzzz at CambridgeBayWeather's talk page, I have a significant number who do; Barek, who full-protected my user page (see here) due to Signedzzz's WP:Disruption, is one such editor. But if you want more people watching it, bring it on. Flyer22 (talk) 02:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Community of Watch". Ha. Orwell would be proud. --NeilN 03:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

can i make a list of people who i need to keep monitoring as my duty as part of the "Community of Watch"? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Such pages undermine a collegiate atmosphere of mutual respect and support. I recall cases of admins facing sanctions for keeping similar pages in the past - I'd rather not drag up names ets but other longstanding editors will surely remember. If any editor wants to keep a private list of enemies/toerags/wankers, or whatever, then they can either get pen and paper and write them down, or invest in a computer and make such lists on that - not use Misplaced Pages for them. DuncanHill (talk) 02:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, per User:Elaqueate. The enemy list of Flyer22 is junk and it has to go. Caden 02:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

We already established your faulty reason for being in this thread, with my "21:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)" post in the section immediately above this one. If insulting your ridiculous WP:Move request (which was not even an official WP:Move request) is all that it takes for you to "vote" against someone one, I will have to remember to insult any other ridiculous WP:Move request you make; certainly is fun watching you take your petty revenge. Flyer22 (talk) 02:40, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we not turn this into a WP:BATTLEGROUND? Save your personal disputes for the right place as you are not making your case look good here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Flyer22, please do not threaten to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would not be "disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point" if I honestly find the WP:Move request to be ridiculous and state it as such. Flyer22 (talk) 03:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. An "enemies list", even disguised as a "sockpuppet watch" list, is against the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. If they're not socks, it's an enemies list; if they are, it's grave-dancing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, any highly disruptive editor that I recognize as highly disruptive is simply an enemy. I could not disagree more. But your opinion is your own. Flyer22 (talk) 03:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You could try writing it down and keep it in a notebook then if you are that truly concerned, names do not have to be presented for the world to see online on some list. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why these names should not be listed. None of the rationales for why they should not be are valid to me. I don't think these editors should be protected in any way when it comes to identifying their problematic editing for as many eyes that come across my user page. I made the mistake of shielding Scientiom; I won't be making that mistake, or a similar one, again. Flyer22 (talk) 03:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Problems can be listed at WP:LTA, editing restrictions, SPI, and other community-patrolled pages. And this is only the same sort of "protection" that stops random editors from listing you as a disruptive editor on their talk pages.__ E L A Q U E A T E 03:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Like NeilN pointed out to you above, this is not the same thing as simply listing editors that one personally finds problematic. This is about listing editors who have been indefinitely blocked (in one cased banned) because of their problematic editing and continue to waste Misplaced Pages's time. The main thing that I take away from your and some others' arguments in this case is protecting these editors from wider exposure (something I address below in my reply to Davey2010). I could not care in the least if an editor lists me on their user page as problematic; my contributions speak for themselves, and so do what transpired with my block cases. Flyer22 (talk) 04:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting you should list the editors "that one personally finds problematic" at WP:LTA, editing restrictions, SPI, and other community-patrolled pages. Quite the opposite. Community pages are the best place to list type of material you're outlining, rather than a personal version run by a single editor.__ E L A Q U E A T E 04:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I know that you were not suggesting that. You stated, "Community pages are the best place to list type of material you're outlining, rather than a personal version run by a single editor." I cannot agree in this case; and this is due to the reasons I stated to Davey2010 below. All of the support votes in the world won't be changing my mind on this topic. Flyer22 (talk) 04:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"All of the support votes in the world won't be changing my mind on this topic" - It's good to know you've solemnly sworn not to listen to the community. Food for thought: the general term for somebody who says they will not listen to community consensus is "not here to improve the encyclopedia". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The Bushranger, stating that I won't change my mind on the usefulness of the section in question, which is what I was doing with my "04:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above, is not stating that I will not adhere to WP:Consensus to remove the section. I made clear in my "02:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above that I always adhere to WP:Consensus, unlike many at this site. You see, the WP:Consensus policy is almost as disregarded/disrespected as the WP:Civil policy, if not more so. And as for me not being here to improve the encyclopedia, yeah, my wanting to keep highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets off Misplaced Pages shows that exactly. So do my various barnstars and the discussions regarding them. And the over 200 talk page watchers I have? Yeah, they are all there to keep me in line. It couldn't possibly be that the vast majority of them respect me as a Wikipedian and/or often ask for my help on Misplaced Pages matters. Flyer22 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support This kind of list goes agains the collaberative spirit of wikipedia. Lists like this belong in the notebook of a middleschooler not on an encyclopedia. If Flyer22 wants to keep a list he should do it without using Wikiedia's resources or time. CombatWombat42 (talk) 03:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

There should be no collaborative spirit when it comes to highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets. If you want to ignore them and/or work with them, you are obviously more than free to do so. But I don't see why others should have to be kept in the dark when it comes to that choice. As for "ists like this belong in the notebook of a middleschooler not on an encyclopedia," that's absurd. Like Black Kite stated above, the list is not "any different from any entry on WP:LTA." And as for "using Wikiedia's resources or time"? Just what resources and time are being wasted, other than this silly thread? Flyer22 (talk) 03:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Is a userpage really an appropriate place to list this?, If you wanna keep tabs on people shove it on your desktop or write it down like normal people. –Davey2010 • (talk) 03:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The good ole "You're not normal" insinuation. Thanks. Makes me feel all special. The point of the list, as has already been stated, is to document not only a type of editing that I engage in (identifying WP:Sockpuppets), which is not much different than identifying on my user page what other type of editing I engage in, but further publicizing these problematic WP:Sockpuppets so that others know who they are dealing with when these WP:Sockpuppets reappear. I am one of the main editors of Misplaced Pages's sexual topics (whether it's sexual activity, sexual orientation, or anatomy), a field that is highly neglected on Misplaced Pages and can be quite easily significantly disrupted by any of these editors...without much backup; and all of these WP:Sockpuppet masters have been involved in sexual articles. Because I am one of the prominent editors of sexual topics on Misplaced Pages, many people who edit these articles or visit these articles at random check my user page and/or talk page. Same goes for my getting contacted by journalists because of my editing of these articles. And I find it to be a good thing when come away from my user page knowing what editors to be on the lookout for. But if you and others want to protect these problematic editors, which it seems to me that you do, there is clearly not much that I can do about that. User:Acoma Magic should be proud that he has such defenders. Flyer22 (talk) 04:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Wait, are you saying you like this list on your user page because it's a good way to share the editor names with journalists? __ E L A Q U E A T E 04:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

No, and you've glossed over the main point of that paragraph. I don't care anymore what you think on this subject. Not that I cared much to begin with. Flyer22 (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Since my "journalists" comment can obviously be taken out of context, such as by Signedzzz below, I have amended the wording by adding "" in place of "they"; the amendment is clear by the brackets. If I had originally put the journalists part in parentheses, it would have been very clear that I mean "Misplaced Pages editors" by use of "when they come away from my user page." I thought about clarifying the text when you questioned me; now I have. And what I meant by that text is further clarified by the aforementioned link in this paragraph. Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I also added "problematic" on to "editors" in the second-to-last sentence of my "04:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above to clarify what type of editors I am talking about. Flyer22 (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Further clarification on the journalists point here. Flyer22 (talk) 09:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

What a headache. This is why editing comments after people have responded only tends to confuse things further. You didn't even change your overall point. You are still saying you have your user page the way it is partly because journalists sometimes visit it. A pretty goofy point to spend this much time on. If the community decides this is an inappropriate way to use your user page, then the possible high visibility of your page only works against you.__ E L A Q U E A T E 15:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support There is no need for a sock-smeller pursuivant; SPI is thataway GoldenRing (talk) 04:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support The section in question is a waste of bandwidth at best and a blatant and unjustifiable violation of WP:POLEMIC at worst. —Rutebega (talk) 04:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Rutebega, I saw your post soon after you made it, but am only just now replying: Misplaced Pages is not paper. Flyer22 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Tentatively oppose. For any editors who are blocked, banned, or topic banned, a short description of their editing pattern is appropriate. I choose to keep out of LGBT editing patterns, because I consider MOS:IDENTITY to be put "respect" over accuracy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Such information on personal user pages will continue to be misused. New editors will continue to leave in disgust. zzz (talk) 06:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose we are getting over protective in wikipedia. If s/he is keeping a list then at least we know they are. It used to be that controlling behaviour was a means to allow good articles to emerge, now it has become an end in itself. No one has to go to his talk page and there is nothing really offence there. Too many cases here are starting to sound like a chorus of demands to bring sinners to the mercy seat in a hell fire and damnation chapel. Black Kite's advise is as far as I would go ----Snowded 08:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose If Signedzzz is insisting that the MO as outlined by Flyer is in fact about him and not about Pass a Method, then maybe he could point out the bits that don't pertain to Pass a Method? Unless it is explicitly established that Flyer's "sock profile" is indeed about Signedzzz then I cannot support an action compelling her to remove the section. Betty Logan (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is well-established. In the second half of the section about Pass a Method, from "current/main editor of Boko Haram" (undeniably me) onwards, (see top of this page), it is a selection of things I've done. I haven't edited Pope Francis or Erection, but everything else was me. Eg, mentioned the Pope in the drugs article ]. No attempt has been made to suggest otherwise. It is absolutely blatant and unsubtle, all the rest is about me. And yet when I asked for it to be removed, here for example where an administrator tells me I have "no cause to delete it", I was told in no uncertain terms that it must stay. Hence the accusations of me being a sock, etc, etc, were guaranteed to continue, to the point where I might start believing them myself. zzz (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC) Eg also, my use of Urban Dictionary for the definition of Roach (smoking). The edit history shows it was me, and yet Flyer22 listed it, along with my other activities, under the list of things that would prove an editor to be a sockpuppet.zzz (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support If Flyer22 wants to accuse someone of sock puppetree then it needs to go to SPI. This sort of behavior only seeks to reinforce an idea that zzz is a problem, and obviously if you can't pass the duck test or SPI these devolve into PAs. Its time for the old "put up or shut up" portion of DR. Tivanir2 (talk) 13:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Tivanir2, I already "put up"...times over. And as has already been made clear, all of those editors listed are WP:Sockpuppet masters. And they were caught by the WP:Duck test and by WP:CheckUsers times over. Flyer22 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Put up" means prove with evidence that your allegation is true. I see you are continuing your efforts to prove it by insinuation instead.zzz (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Commentary about present and former editors who are suspected of socking and abuse is better kept at WP:LTA and WP:SPI. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Per Elaqueate, DuncanHill, Caden, and The Bushranger. To put a finer point on it, the enemies list seems to make Flyer22's user page into a trophy wall ("caught him") and its edit summaries contrary to WP:ES and WP:NPA ("And, sigh, looks very familiar, but appears to be a sock of an editor currently editing Misplaced Pages (I might worry about him later.)") Lightbreather (talk) 16:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, people continually referring to the list of highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets as an enemies list are completely oversimplifying the matter. Anyone significantly familiar with these highly problematic editors knows that. You have not seen the type of disruption they are capable of, and neither have a lot of others here voting "support." And that is just one reason that I take your opinions on these matters with a grain of salt. As for my edit summaries in my user page history regarding WP:Sockpuppets, there is nothing wrong with them, in my opinion. It's already clear that I don't agree with your strict interpretation of what a WP:Personal attack is. Flyer22 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion doesn't override POLICY. Per the Civility policy re personal attacks and harassment (partial):

Editors are expected to avoid personal attacks and harassment of other Wikipedians. This applies equally to all Wikipedians: it is as unacceptable to attack a user who has a history of foolish or boorish behaviour, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user.

--Lightbreather (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

So are you going to be deleting the multiple pages/sections you have in your user space with lists of diffs and actions from Sue, Scalhotrod and others?Gaijin42 (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, there is no need to cite Misplaced Pages policy to me as though I need a crash course in it. It's not just my opinion when it comes to your overly strict interpretations of the WP:Civil and WP:Personal attacks policies and that is made clear in that aforementioned discussion I linked to when replying to you minutes ago above. Pointing out on my user page that an editor is a WP:Sockpuppet and/or that I caught that editor as a WP:Sockpuppet is not a WP:Civil/WP:Personal attacks issue. And if I wanted an enemies list on my userpage, it would be far longer than the list containing these highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets. Flyer22 (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The vote on the aforementioned discussion is about 50/50, so I don't know if you anyone can rightly call my (and others') interpretations overly strict. That's not clear at all. In fact, one might argue just as well that civility isn't given any serious attention on Misplaced Pages, and a lot of people are tired of being told to ignore it. Lightbreather (talk) 00:24, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I debated with myself on whether or not I should reply to your latest response; clearly, I've decided to reply: I used the words "my opinion" in my "17:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" response to you above. And I stated that I'm clearly not the only one who feels that your interpretations of the WP:Civil and WP:Personal attacks policies are overly strict; whether it's indicated in the aforementioned above discussion or elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. And as for the WP:Civil policy being very disrespected/disregarded, I mentioned that to The Bushranger in my "17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" reply above when noting that the WP:Consensus policy is just as, if not more so, disrespected/disregarded as the WP:Civil policy. Because the WP:Civil policy is so disrespected/disregarded, editors here often don't see the point of it. Like I mentioned on my talk page: "The name-calling rolls right off of me, for the most part. Sure, it and other incivility (see WP:Civil), can anger me (the general incivility often does), but it's not often that I'm hurt by any of the words. Being called a bitch, cunt, idiot, etc. is a part of the job here (at least for me). I know that my depression often contributes to me being less than civil (usually when someone is uncivil to me first), but I often try not to be (even when my mindset is simultaneously 'If you are rude to me, then expect me to be rude to you in return.')." Flyer22 (talk) 01:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I see nothing wrong with keeping lists of verified sockpuppets on ones user page. Keeping track of socks is hard enough. Now listing none socks I would see as an issue. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Lightbreather. Lists of users that you've had disagreements with, socks or not, is simply inappropriate. Ansh666 05:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Confused the nub of this dispute is zzz's perceived treatment by Flyer22. Elaqueate, having looked at Flyer22's page, takes issue with the list, as do some other users. I personally don't think it is covered by polemic. To remind other users, the list only contains 5 users, none of whom is currently active, 3 blocked. Flyer22 in my experience edits in areas that are rife with Sockpuppets, and I think this is reasonable. Flyer22 also shows a great understanding of many WP policies, which is very admirable. That said, Flyer22, I think a compromise position would be something proactive -- such as moving the list to a subpage (where it's even less visible) or moving it to a private venue. Not because the list is in the wrong, but because I think it is a compromise position that allows you to take control of the situation and save face. I don't think there's anything wrong with the list, and if it's maintained off-wiki it still has its useful reference value. Lastly I don't think that we have to operate by the principle 'minimum required by the law', removing is a more harmonious measure, and it's causing disquiet to some other users (even if you disagree), and really whether or not it is present won't change that much in terms of your ability to identify sock puppets. So I think voluntarily removing the list before forced is probably the best option. --Tom (LT) (talk) 08:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, LT910001 (Tom). It was suggested to me by another Misplaced Pages editor (via email) that I simply remove the section to reduce drama. I wouldn't see it as so much of saving face, however, considering that it's clear by this thread that my hand is being forced regardless. I might as well stay with this thing until the verdict is handed down. And as for taking the list to a subpage, that would be targeted by misguided WP:Polemic enforcers as well. And as for keeping the list hidden, I noted above that posting it on my user page is about it being there to help other Misplaced Pages editors know what to be on the lookout for regarding some highly problematic Misplaced Pages editors. Flyer22 (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I found The Bushranger's argument to be compelling. He wrote "An 'enemies list', even disguised as a 'sockpuppet watch' list, is against the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. If they're not socks, it's an enemies list; if they are, it's grave-dancing." --Guy Macon (talk) 08:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

And you, like others, are oversimplifying the list by reducing it to a mere enemies list; I already addressed that with my "17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above. Same goes for reducing it to mere "grave-dancing." Flyer22 (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - That's an enemies list. Keep that sort of stuff on your computer and out of WP space. Carrite (talk) 12:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

The warning I received was concerning these messages, which, after the unfriendly title, were all very polite and friendly requests to remove the attack stuff. The "warner" had omitted to read them. zzz (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Stating "But I suppose it is just a big joke, and, your going to spin it out as long as you can, or until I give up with WP, as I did years ago when someone was convinced I was a sockpuppet." and "Why is it so important to you to continue hounding me? I am not aware of any interaction between us that sparked off your campaign against me." are not very polite and friendly statements. The aforementioned WP:Administrator likened your repeated postings to my talk page (after I all but stated that I no longer want to converse with you) to WP:Harassment because your obsessive postings are similar to that. You need to do better not to post walls of text, especially rambling walls of text. Compared to how I have interacted with you, and how you have interacted with me, your actions are closer to WP:Hounding; I don't see mine as such at all. I left you alone, more than once, as others have noted. And, quite frankly, I am tired of you trying to get me to reply to you. If I don't want to reply to you, then accept it and move on. Flyer22 (talk) 22:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You are quoting from the debate that ensued after you followed me to the admin's talk page where I had gone after your abusive edit summary. The warning was for the messages I later left on your talk page after I had been unable to remove the attack piece, and the admin had failed to read. He was no doubt confused into thinking they were all unfriendly by the first one. zzz (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you are not quoting from me at all. You are making it up and putting words in my mouth for some reason, I strongly suspect. zzz (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. The words are there on my talk page. But, again, sigh...to all of your arguments. Flyer22 (talk) 22:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You keep trying to make this about me. No further comment. zzz (talk) 22:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

One more comment: I am in good standing, I am not blocked or a sockpuppet. zzz (talk) 22:53, 15 September 2014‎ (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Clean_start#Notification_and_permission can you verify that by telling a functionary what the other account was? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. The allegation eventually becomes "true" until "officially disproved", (despite the fact that even flyer22 has admitted that it is not true), which is why I am resorting to this extreme measure.zzz (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC) Oh, I get it, you are asking a serious question. If and when a functionary asks me to provide evidence, of anything I have said here, I have absolutely no problem doing so. zzz (talk) 16:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Considering how Flyer22 has decided to make this a personal battleground and has explicitly stated over and over - in hisher deciding to tell every person who disagrees with himher how they're wrong - that heshe will not listen to what anyone has to say, at a certain point one has to wonder how suited they are to editing in a collaborative environment. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:13, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • She has stated she would adhere to consensus. Unless we're the thought police, you do not have to agree with every consensus decision made on Misplaced Pages to edit here. --NeilN 11:48, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, Neil. Like I just told The Bushranger above, "stating that I won't change my mind on the usefulness of the section in question, which is what I was doing with my '04:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)' post above, is not stating that I will not adhere to WP:Consensus to remove the section. I made clear in my '02:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)' post above that I always adhere to WP:Consensus, unlike many at this site. You see, the WP:Consensus policy is almost as disregarded/disrespected as the WP:Civil policy, if not more so. And as for me not being here to improve the encyclopedia, yeah, my wanting to keep highly problematic WP:Sockpuppets off Misplaced Pages shows that exactly. So do my various barnstars and the discussions regarding them. And the over 200 talk page watchers I have? Yeah, they are all there to keep me in line. It couldn't possibly be that the vast majority of them respect me as a Wikipedian and/or often ask for my help on Misplaced Pages matters."

As for a battleground, excuse me if I don't take kindly to people making light jabs at me, voting on things against me because of a past dispute, and/or issuing some other kind of flimsy support vote against me. If you jab at me, I will jab back. Often enough anyway (I commonly ignore or don't respond to the drive-by assaults I get to my user page and/or talk page). Flyer22 (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You used your "list", your supposed "skill at chasing sockpuppets" (backed up by your fraudulent user page section) and your Wikipedian friends such as Niel (), to fraudulently make it appear that I am a sockpuppet, and support your other allegations against me. Surprisingly, I didn't respond by going nuclear (as I am sure you wanted, to get me banned), instead I raised the matter here, so you may be forced to admit wrongdoing at some point. I wonder, how many sockpuppets have you chased, as opposed to people you just don't like? zzz (talk) 17:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your characterization of me continues to be flimsy or false. For example, I didn't get my "Wikipedian friends" to do anything regarding this topic. Nor did I ask them to do anything on it. The vast majority of them (meaning my talk page watchers) have stayed out of this dispute. If they were involved in it, there would be a lot more oppose votes above. Some have emailed me about why they won't comment in this thread. I'm not interested in trying to get them to support me on this matter, especially keeping WP:Canvass in mind. If they want to support me, they will. If they don't want to support me, they won't. And then there are the conflicted ones. And you state that you didn't " nuclear." So your obsessive postings, you obsessing about this topic for hours on end and nothing else, and throwing around shady accusations, is not going nuclear? As for me randomly going after people, that is another unfounded accusation from you. I already told you that it is far too easy for me to spot WP:Sockpupppets; I pointed you to this and this case as examples. Similarly, it was easy to recognize that you've edited Misplaced Pages before your Signedzzz account. There are various other cases of me spotting WP:Sockpuppets. Some involve me reporting WP:Sockuppets to WP:ArbCom because of violations of the WP:Child protect policy; yes, I stay on the lookout for pedophiles and/or pro-child sexual abuse editors as well. Want to tell WP:ArbCom how I've falsely identified such editors? Go ahead; see if they agree with that assessment. Flyer22 (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you fabricate evidence about people you don't like and then falsely allege that they are paedophiles? That would be a serious crime. Can you actually understand why that is, I wonder? zzz (talk) 18:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I have made it perfectly clear all along I have used WP before, several years age, but never found out how to use citations. This does not make me a sockpuppet any more than your other fraudulent evidence does. zzz (talk) 18:13, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your comment about pedophiles is asinine, and is why I will now cease replying to you. WP:ArbCom has the resources, WP:CheckUsers and other tools, to identify WP:Sockpuppets of pedophiles, especially since the WP:Child protect policy was created because Misplaced Pages previously had a very serious, very detrimental pedophile and/or pro-child sexual abuse problem. They don't block such editors unless their is solid evidence, often Misplaced Pages contributions included, that those editors are pedophiles and/or pro-child sexual abuse editors. And I told you before, at CambridgeBayWeather's talk page: WP:Block is not the same thing as WP:Ban. You keep using the word banned in place of blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • Thank you for the correction, Neil; I apologise for the misaimed pronouns. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Should we be thinking about an interaction ban here? --Guy Macon (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I think this would definetly help and would at least reduce the amount of battleground behaviour from both editors that appears to be turning up here. I dont think it would address the issue of the original problem though. Amortias (T)(C) 17:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If I saw a need for a WP:Interaction ban, I would have proposed it. Signedzzz edits in some of the areas I edit in, and my areas of interest are wide-ranging, so I don't see how a WP:Interaction ban would be best at this point. Flyer22 (talk) 17:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If you had politely asked me to verify my previous account to prove how insignificant it was, on account of my edits being so exceptional, I would have obliged and there would have been no problem. Or if you had at least removed the false insinuations from your page. Or if Neil had agreed with me they should be removed (). It seems strange that I was obliged to come here, which helps no one. I feel I have to assume that the plan was that I just give up with WP - which is why I find it hard to see things from your perspective. zzz (talk) 19:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Keeping a list of indef'd users on one's page might be OK but it tends to "feed the trolls". Keeping a list of not-blocked users online and accusing them of being sockmasters or rules-violators in other ways is NOT appropriate. If the user wants to keep that kind of info, he should keep it on a text document on his PC, and consult it when necessary - NOT post it publicly. Not just because "hit lists" are against the rules, but also because such a list likewise potentially "feeds the trolls". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

John's closure

Though John and I have been civil with each other these days, it's because of our past disputes (for example, shown here, here and here) that I don't think that he was the right person to close this thread or to remove the section from my user page. There was no indication that I would not remove the section myself; indeed, I made it explicitly clear that I would adhere to WP:Consensus on this matter. The thread is supposed to be a voluntary matter for me, and it should have been left up to me to remove that section, not left up to a person I have been in passionate dispute with. I also think that this entire thread about me should have closed at the same time, so that all of this will assuredly be archived together instead of disjointedly. If it will still all be archived together instead of disjointedly, then okay. Flyer22 (talk) 23:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I also commented on my talk page about the closure. Flyer22 (talk) 01:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

More discussion followed here. Flyer22 (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: six month interaction ban between Flyer22 and zzz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose an interaction ban lasting no more than six months between zzz and Flyer22. Given their past interactions and comments on this page, I believe that continuing their current course would be harmful to the encyclopedia. I would also like to have it noted that such an interaction ban implies nothing about who is or is not at fault. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Support zzz (talk) 23:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Support as proposer. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Note: See my posts in the Discussion section below about this proposal; I very much disagree with it, and don't feel the need to state "oppose" in this section. Flyer22 (talk) 00:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Support. It's a good idea. Caden 01:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

And I'm certain that you can't detail why it's a good idea, especially given what I've stated below. Flyer22 (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I would support these users not writing on each others talk pages or editing each others user pages. Beyond that however I do not support. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose the point of contention in this debate is what Flyer22 has written on her user page. This issue will be resolved by the outcome of the above discussion i.e. allowing her to retain her comments or by obliging her to remove them. I don't see what an IBAN will accomplish beyond that. Betty Logan (talk) 10:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, Flyer22 has been conducting a smear campaign against me. Secondly, below, she states that she still believes me to be a sockpuppet, still with no evidence. But her beliefs colour her opinions of me and my edits. How does it benefit Misplaced Pages to have her freely telling other editors her incredibly negative personal opinions about me? Why is it a problem for her, or anyone else, if she leaves me alone?zzz (talk) 10:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

As I have already said, if the above discussion find her comments unwarranted then she will be obliged to take them down. That is not contingent on an IBAN being imposed, however. I also don't think you appreciate the full implications of an IBAN: an IBAN isn't imposed just on Flyer, it is imposed on you too, and you will be effectively barred from editing articles she has heavily edited. Betty Logan (talk) 10:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but I, personally, would be fine with that, as opposed to having her telling editors on any pages I wish to edit about my supposed flaws, as she did in Terminator 2: Judgment Day, in an edit summary, very recently. That sort of thing does not inspire me to edit. And, assuming she is no longer able to conduct her campaign against me on her user page, I expect that, given her opinions about me expressed here, that she intends to pursue me more aggressively, now.zzz (talk) 11:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that your account is 4 months old and Flyers is many years old this makes your response more understandable. One more reason I oppose. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

In the Discussion section below about the proposed interaction ban, I make it perfectly clear how little I have sought Signedzzz out; by "sought out," I mean attempted to communicate with him or post obsessively about him to the point that I try to get him to communicate with me. I make it perfectly clear that I am not interested in interacting with Signedzzz in the least. Flyer22 (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose – the dispute is taking place in user namespace, not in main space. If there is any interaction ban, it should be restricted to where the dispute is actually taking place. Boghog (talk) 11:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and echo Jmh649's comments. MarnetteD|Talk 23:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as per Doc James, and MarnetteD. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 06:57, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I think Doc James advice is good. --I am One of Many (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose What is with the community's recent infatuation with interaction bans as catch all solutions? They're hard to enforce, easy to game and only resolve matters in very limited cases. Protonk (talk) 16:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

(@Guy Macon) Sounds like a plan: I made my point, already. zzz (talk) 21:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

To make it official, you should post a Support nonvote in the section above. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I already stated, near the end of the Discussion section above, "If I saw a need for a WP:Interaction ban, I would have proposed it. Signedzzz edits in some of the areas I edit in, and my areas of interest are wide-ranging, so I don't see how a WP:Interaction ban would be best at this point."

If Signedzzz edits any area that I edit, and I see it as problematic, you expect me not to revert him? Not to bring up the matter on the talk page? The interaction ban will benefit him because he can then make any faulty edit knowing that I will be prohibited from reverting him. It has been made explicitly clear that I stayed away from him after my posts to his talk page in August, until he made a faulty edit to the Terminator 2: Judgment Day article on September 13, 2014. Just how is an interaction ban going to work in a case like that? We can both edit the article, but can't revert each other? I should post to WP:Film or to WP:Med when he edits a film or a medical article in way that I find problematic? The only interaction ban that I see needed between us at the moment is that he no longer post to my talk page...unless alerting me to a noticeboard discussion. And, I of course, would no longer post to his talk page unless alerting him to a noticeboard discussion. I don't want anything to do with Signedzzz and have ignored him various times, while he has continually sought me out, to the point that CambridgeBayWeather likened it to harassment; when that is pointed out, then Signedzzz goes on about CambridgeBayWeather not having all the facts and what he thinks CambridgeBayWeather meant. Would I like for Signedzzz to leave me alone? Sure. But for that to come at the price of him being able visit the Spree killer article, for example, and make an edit there that I'm not allowed to revert? No. But if WP:Consensus is formed on an interaction ban between us, I will adhere to it. Flyer22 (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Continually sought me out". I asked to have the lies about me removed. Then I came here.zzz (talk) 22:43, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Dif would be useful for "lies about me removed" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Diff:. See "Pass a Method" section. These are uniquely and specifically about me: current/main Boko Haram editor, adding Pope Francis to Recreational drug use, using Urban Dictionary as a source for Roach (smoking). I wrote these three articles in the last couple of months. (Also, "Adding a picture of someone smoking to their user page or talk page. Makes notes on his user page of the articles he's edited, soon after editing them", etc). It has been stated repeatedly, above, that adding my details to a purported description of a sockpuppet is a straightforward attempt to convince other editors that I am undoubtedly the sockpuppet in question. Flyer22 also states, above, that journalists view the user page, "And I find it to be a good thing when they come away from my user page knowing what editors to be on the lookout for".zzz (talk) 07:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Signedzzz when you quote someone else it is respectfulness for those reading what you write to provide the dif of the person saying it so that we can 1) verify the content 2) look at the context Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:48, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Those are the lies, though, as you requested, (apart from the bold quote from this page), that Flyer22 refused to remove from her userpage, until I took the matter here. zzz (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

James, what Signedzzz has mainly done regarding me is obsess over me, mischaracterize me, and twist my words; reminds me of another editor that people sought to impose some kind of interaction ban on regarding me (noted below). My "04:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above is one instance of Signedzzz misinterpreting what I meant. By "And I find it to be a good thing when they come away from my user page knowing what editors to be on the lookout for" is about Misplaced Pages editors. Journalists, of course, are not going to stick around Misplaced Pages to know what to be on the lookout for, unless they are undercover/stealth journalists. Not that I see anything wrong with them knowing of some of Misplaced Pages's most problematic editors. By mentioning journalists, I meant that I don't mind if, when they contact me, they see my user page and take note of the fact that Misplaced Pages has had some very serious problematic editors. I will slightly amend my "04:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" comment. Also take note that Signedzzz keeps going on about a portion of my user page that I have since removed. Flyer22 (talk) 08:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Amended. Flyer22 (talk) 08:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I also think that the following lines are clear: "Because I am one of the prominent editors of sexual topics on Misplaced Pages, many people who edit these articles or visit these articles at random check my user page and/or talk page. Same goes for my getting contacted by journalists because of my editing of these articles." That was in my original post about journalists and is still there. Flyer22 (talk) 09:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

You only removed it after I complained about it here! The only reason I complained about it here is because you refused to remove it, even after you admitted that you don't think I am the sockpuppet. zzz (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

You refused to remove it until I compained about it here, so don't pretend otherwise. zzz (talk) 14:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Note another mischaracterization by Signedzzz: Being far less convinced that he is Pass a Method does not equate to "I no longer believe that he is a WP:Sockpuppet." Flyer22 (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

So, it was worth continuing to persuade editors and journalists alike that I am Pass a Method because you think that I am a different sockpuppet, now? zzz (talk) 10:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

So you blanked his entire user page 3 times because you had an issue with this one paragraph? Also typing all in bold is not appropriate generally. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Her user page alleged that I was the sockpuppet Pass a Method. I have not read all the rules of Misplaced Pages, I just assumed that was totally against them, and that anyone would do the same thing. zzz (talk) 12:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Flyer22,To make it official, you should post a Oppose nonvote in the section above. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Flyer22, To answer your specific question:

"If Signedzzz edits any area that I edit, and I see it as problematic, you expect me not to revert him? Not to bring up the matter on the talk page? The interaction ban will benefit him because he can then make any faulty edit knowing that I will be prohibited from reverting him ... Just how is an interaction ban going to work in a case like that? We can both edit the article, but can't revert each other?"

If my proposal for an interaction ban between the two of you gains sufficient support, that means that the Misplaced Pages community has decided that you are the wrong person to correct what you believe are faulty edits by zzz, and that zzz is the wrong person to correct what he believes are faulty edits by you. If the proposal passes, you are going to have to realize that nobody is indispensable and trust the other editors to address any faulty edits. As for this "benefiting him", if we assume for the sake of argument that one of you makes faulty edits (I am purposely offering no opinion on that), you should be aware that anyone who gets involved in an ANI discussion naturally undergoes additional scrutiny from administrators and experienced editors afterwords, so it is doubtful that either of you will get away with making faulty edits for long. Again, I am not implying that one or the other of you is or isn't at fault or that one or the other of you is or isn't making faulty edits. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't need an explanation of what a Misplaced Pages interaction ban is. The point of my "22:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)" post above was to indicate the faults with your proposal. All that you have done, in my opinion, with this proposal is make things worse, and all because Signedzzz obsessively posts about me with all kinds of unfounded accusations, and, sure, I have responded to him frustratedly in this thread because of that. I don't have much of a past with Signedzzz beyond that. WP:IBAN states that I can't even mention Signedzzz indirectly. So commenting on a talk page or posting to a WP:WikiProject about a bad edit that he has made to an article that I watch is out of the question, unless it's WP:Vandalism or a WP:BLP violation. If he edits any article that I edit (for example, any article that I have listed on my user page as having improved or significantly improved, including any WP:Good article), I am not allowed to revert, partially revert or even tweak that edit. And you think that is a solution? It isn't. If your proposal passes, you will have given him free reign to show up at any article that I edit and screw around without any worry that I will revert him. I'm certain that that is exactly what he wants, which is why he is supporting the interaction ban. So that he can, for example, go and have his way at the Spree killer article. I don't even see how WP:IBAN follows the rationale that editors can edit the same articles, but can't revert each other. Even a partial revision can count as a revert, depending on one's definition of a revert.

Have I posted obsessively about Signedzzz? No. Am I interested in going and editing any of the articles that Signedzzz is significantly interested in editing? No. But, if your proposal passes, you can guarantee that he will likely start popping up at just about any article that I edit. I've dealt with editors like Signedzzz before, ones I would categorize as having a harassment and disruptive nature. Signedzzz appears to not even know when he is engaging in harassment and/or disruption. Your proposal will render me powerless to challenge any of his edits. You have given no indication that you looked enough into Signedzzz's editing history to see why I have concerns about his editing. I am well aware that "anyone who gets involved in an ANI discussion naturally undergoes additional scrutiny from administrators and experienced editors afterwords." But as for the topics that I edit? In addition to editing well-watched articles, I edit articles that are not well-watched, including the aforementioned Spree killer article. I was lucky to get this backup from Ianmacm in the case of that article regarding an edit that Signedzzz made, but I doubt that I'll be lucky enough to get such backup in various other cases if your proposal passes. Seems that before your proposal gains traction in passing, I should alert WP:Film and WP:Med to this discussion so that they will know that if Signedzzz shows up at a film or medical article that I edit, I will likely need others to review that edit. Flyer22 (talk) 00:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

If, as you claim, you don't need an explanation of what a Misplaced Pages interaction ban is, why then did you ask "Just how is an interaction ban going to work in a case like that? We can both edit the article, but can't revert each other?" WP:IBAN clearly states "Although the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other, they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way. For example, if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)." --Guy Macon (talk) 04:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

With several years of experience editing this site, and having been to WP:ANI more than once, twice or thrice, as putting the name Flyer22 in a search of the WP:ANI archives show (including a case where an interaction ban was suggested between me and an editor before), why would it be a claim that I know how WP:IBAN works? The question I asked clearly aligns with what WP:IBAN states. And I told you above, "The point of my '22:06, 16 September 2014 (UTC)' post above was to indicate the faults with your proposal." It is indeed a faulty suggestion, in my opinion, to state that we can edit the same articles...but can't revert each other. So there is no need to try really hard to assume that my question was asked in good faith. Flyer22 (talk) 05:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Caden voting again, knowing full well that his votes to restrict what I add to my user page or how I otherwise edit are without valid rationale, has urged me to alert WP:Med, WP:Anatomy and WP:Film to this interaction ban discussion, as seen here, here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't find the place in Caden's edit history where he urged you to to alert those Wikiprojects. I probably just missed the obvious; could you please show us a diff where he did that? I am not expressing any opinion as to whether alerting the Wikiprojects was or was not appropriate. Or are you saying that the mere fact that he supported a proposal "urged" you in some way? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I meant that Caden voting again due to a past grudge (a grudge I already pointed to earlier in this big thread) urged me to go ahead and seek input from the WikiProjects that are related to this interaction ban. Flyer22 (talk) 05:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Just so that everyone understands what an interaction ban entails, please review WP:IBAN and WP:BANEX. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 23:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comments I am finding concerns with User:Signedzzz edits. They made 7 reverts in 24 hours here on Sept 12th［https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Recreational_drug_use&action=history]. This is not an appropriate picture for the lead of this article . They deleted another users user page 3 times. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The user talk page which you mention claimed that I am a sockpuppet (see above - the subject of this discussion). User:WarriorLut, a new single-purpose account, kept making changes to Recreational drug use, after I had just spent three weeks writing it. He refused to respond to my repeated requests for him to explain his changes, but simply proceeded to continue deleting all of the new material. I did not know where to report his vandalism, so I reverted it each time. I have since discovered where to report vandalism. Your opinions of any pictures or other material in the article should be explained in the talk page of the article. None of the 2-3000 visitors per day have complained as yet - in fact, the number of viewers seems to have approximately doubled over the past 2-3 weeks - see .zzz (talk) 07:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Ps, I see from your angry message in the talk page of Recreational drug use, , that you don't like the article. However, you did not explain your POV, or suggest any significant improvements. zzz (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Still not providing the diff I mentioned? You could also provide a direct quote of the claim that made by Flyer that you are a sockpuppet.

I provided the diff under your comment above, where you requested it.zzz (talk) 11:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

With respect to viewers doubling look at this

Exactly were is this "angry message" you attribute to me? Can you provide a diff of that to? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

With respect to "He refused to respond to my repeated requests for him to explain his changes". It was you who was making the new changes and thus need to explain them. He responded here and another user raised concerns here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

No, he started deleting the sections after I had finished them. No one said anything while I was writing them. And the other user made a comment, which I replied to, and then never responded after that. zzz (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

If you check the times of his response, they are after all the reversion. He initially left a message, which I replied to (with three messages), then, instead of replying back, he posted a message about vandalism at the top of the page, and started deleting all the new (referenced) sections, with no explanation. He only later said he thought they were biased, but without explanation.zzz (talk) 12:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry I charcterised your message as angry - I misjudged it's tone. I apologise for that. It was just a bit short, and suggested removing the entire lead section, which, as I mentioned, could just as well be added to instead. (And I just noticed that the viewer figures have almost doubled since I added the new stuff to the article, which seems amazing)zzz (talk) 12:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, just saw your diff. Does that mean I'm wrong then? Oh, well. It did seem odd.zzz (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Signedzzz – I think you will come off worse if an IBAN is imposed. An IBAN isn't imposed on one editor, it is imposed on both editors i.e. you will be subject to the same restrictions as Flyer. In this case not only are you forbidden to respond to each other in discussions, you are forbidden to make changes to each other's edits. Since Flyer22 has been here much longer than you it will be very difficult for you to make changes to articles she has heavily edited without compromising any of her edits i.e. you are much more likely to violate the sanctions than she is on articles that come under common interests. Betty Logan (talk) 10:34, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Move to close I move to close this proposal with a result of no consensus for the proposed interaction ban. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

204.17.60.130

This user's edits have all been undone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alrich44 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Gtrbolivar and personal attacks

User:Gtrbolivar has made it a habit of attacking me personally and exhibiting an utter lack of civility. For example, here here here he was warned by an admin Even after the warning, he continued his personal attacks here and here

This is in addition to a continuing battleground mentality expressed overtly here: "I am going to fight this to the end". --Taivo (talk) 03:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support a block for persisting in disruptive behavior at WP:ANEW and elsewhere. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question - The edit warring appears to be within the scope of WP:AE due to WP:ARBMAC. Is it more appropriate to deal with this warring here, or at Arbitration Enforcement? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  On my reading of it, yes, this would come under discretionary sanctions per WP:ARBMAC. Given this and the other discussion two topics down, I think there's an issue here that needs to be addressed. Lankiveil 08:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC).

There is no personal attack. It is my point of view, backed-up by evidence. I didn't call any names, I didn't say anything out of line. The ridiculous "battleground mentality" argument is a complete falsehood. He uses my words out of context and with malicious intent. I wrote this to support user Stevepeterson who had been attacked repeatedly with slanders and insults by Taivo and a supporter of his. The same attacks were directed to me also. Taivo has been called a vandal, a sockpuppeter and a biased editor by other users as you can see here Talk:Macedonia (ancient kingdom). He made this request to you with the sole purpose of silencing me. He wants me out of the picture, so he can sneak his pseudo-historic agenda into our project through the back door. He has commited numerous vandalisms and violations of both WP:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. For any further and more detailed explanations (about Taivo's behaviour and his false accusations), I am at your disposal. Gtrbolivar (talk) 03:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, Gtrbolivar, you are the one who called me a vandal and User:Stevepeterson's sockpuppetry accusation was proven false. And had you not restarted your personal attacks against me, I would never have brought this problem here. --Taivo (talk) 03:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

What makes Gtrbolivar's behavior frustrating is that I took a couple of days off from the article to collect my thoughts. During that time other editors calmly discussed the issues and started a simple consensus building process to solve the sticky issues. Then Gtrbolivar arrived and completely disrupted the process with a massive attack on myself and the other editors involved in the calm consideration of the article's first sentence. His battleground attitude was on full display as he posted reams of generally irrelevant and definitely repetitive data. --Taivo (talk) 03:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe that Taivo initiated the personal attack. Taivo was upset with anyone trying to bring the article in its stable (2+ years) pro Taivo editwar format. I admit (and apologised for) not assuming good faith from him because what I saw is an editor who together with his supporters Luxure and Macedoniarulez was trying to impose Macedonian nationalism and ideas in-line with the ultra-nationalistic United Macedonia concept. Taivo has used insulting language (eg I have problem with Maths) against any users with different opinion, to such an extend that I had decided to quit editting. And regarding sockpupetry, it is not correct that it was proven false. The investigation was closed due to lack of evidence, this is not a proof that Luxure was not your sock-puppet. I can still identify behavioural similarities between you too eg in refactoring edits of other users Stevepeterson (talk) 11:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

An Australian editor is somehow trying to push a Macedonian POV? Hello? Have you seen my contributions? Have you seen Taivos ? I don't know how it can't be anymore clear to you that I am from Australia I edit predominately in the afternoon and evening (It's 7.42am here now) and most of the articles I edit are Australian, compared to Taivo. We live in opposite timezones, and I want proof on how I am a sockpuppet pushing a Macedonian POV. Is this user from Planet Earth? Luxure (talk) 21:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually the personal attacks began with User:Stevepeterson after my first comments dealing with the non-Greek aspects of ancient Macedonia. He immediately began attacking my comments as somehow being focused on Slavic irredentism. He assumes that anyone who says something like "non-Greek" or "not entirely Greek" is a pro-Slavic extremist. Note his comment right above this. He 1) has zero evidence of sockpuppetry (although he accused everyone who disagreed with him of being one of my sockpuppets) and tons of counterevidence which he either doesn't understand or chooses to ignore, 2) zero evidence of "Macedonian nationalism" on my part despite the fact that there is ample evidence otherwise, 3) zero evidence of pushing a "United Macedonia" concept. That comment of his above is a perfect example of him not assuming good faith and pushing a personal attack. I did not report him because he says he apologized on my Talk Page. An apology means that you stop making the same personal attacks that you "apologized" for. I now doubt the sincerity of his apology. And his "refactoring" comment is laughable. That means that I sometimes add a colon in front of another editor's comment in order to improve readability. That's his evidence of sockpuppetry? --Taivo (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with Stevepeterson. Taivo and Luxure intiated everything. They attacked and insulted Stevepeterson and myself, in order to silence us and make us go away. In my opinion, Luxure is a sockpuppet but not Taivo's. He is possibly a sockpuppet of the Slav pseudo-nationalist Macedoniarulez, a user who has already admitted to socketpuppetry (!!!!!!) as you can see here and here and yet he is still allowed to vandalize our encyclopedia, harass its users and impose his pseudo-historic fairy tales. Don't forget that Luxure invited Macedoniarulez in his "consensus" hunt, despite the fact that he is a Slav pseudo-nationalist by his own admission. Luxure never said anything against Macedoniarulez, he never protested against his "arguments" and his outrageous attacks. He attacked me and Stevepeterson and called us "biased" and "nationalists" but he didn't say anything wrong against Macedoniarulez. He didn't condemn his nationalism and his biased POV opinions. I wonder, why is that? Anyway, everything is crystal clear. Luxure is a vandal, a possible puppet and a FYROM nationalist who works in collaboration with Macedoniarulez. Of course, they both support Taivo fanatically. Within the next days, I am initating a sockpuppet investigation for both Luxure and Macedoniarulez (a sockpuppet by his own admission). Stevepeterson, we can submit this report together.

In conclusion, I want to ask the admins: How can a sockpuppet like Macedoniarulez, who has admitted that he used multiple accounts in order to (quote) "support his country" be allowed to still operate in wikipedia, vandalize the articles of the project and forward his pseudo-nationalistic fairy tales in our encyclopedia in collaboration with other possible sockpuppets of his? I would like a straight answer please. Gtrbolivar (talk) 02:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

You still have no idea what a sockpuppet is or how to identify one, User:Gtrbolivar. Are you actually trying to claim that User:Macedoniarulez created the sockpuppet User:Luxure in July of 2013 and edited nothing but Australia articles for over a year just so that he could use Luxure in the discussion at Macedonia (ancient kingdom) in the late summer of 2014? If you actually think that is possible, I have some oceanview property in Arizona that I'd like to sell you. --Taivo (talk) 04:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

If you do launch your bogus sockpuppetry accusation can I at least be notified this time? When it does get proven false, (and Macedonia has admitted to VANDALISM, not sockpuppetry) I know a good place out near Goulburn where you and Mr. Peterson can visit. Now that was a personal attack, and you dont like it do you? If I, in anyway, get in trouble for 'attacking' you with that statement, I will personally make sure that you are banned from Misplaced Pages and I will launch an Investigation of Sockpuppetry against for being the Master Puppeteer of User:AkiiraGhioni who mysteriously saw an editing comeback seemingly JUST to agree with your obliviously ignorant statements. What do you think Taivo? Let them taste their own medicine? Luxure (talk) 05:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Dear Taivo, your claim that you were not notified about your sockupetrty investigation is not accurate. I had several times warned you abut the investigation and soon after I initiated it, you referred to supportive comment (by DrK) in it, which is a proof that you were are aware of it and made me assume that I no longer have the duty to officially notify you. Also I still regret that I failed to assume good faith and I explained the reasons above: because the anti-hellenism camp was aggressively removing reliable sources proving that an Ancient Kingdom located in today's Northern Greece was once part of the Ancient Greek world. Majority of participants in the editwar under the anti-hellenism camp are openly supporters of the concept that Today's inhabitants of Northern Greece are ethnically unrelated to the region's ancient inhabitants and hence their land should be reclaimed by a country on the North which (according to them) is ethnically more closer related to. Users like User:Macedoniarulez and User: Luxure have openly supported such a "reclamation/unification"; they have expressed racist attitude against the Macedonians (Greeks) (even denying their right of self-determination) and you have been very supportive to them. Examples can be found even in this administrator's noticeboard: instead of trying to discourage their destructive behaviour: 1) you defend User:Macedoniarulez (an ultranationalist profound supporter of United Macedonia that dreams of an annexation of Northern Greece to the Republic of Macedonia) and his past sockpupetry case. 2) You defend Luxure and his refabrication of my commend (]), as an acceptable behaviour that aimed to increase readability of my text 3) you personally attack Gtrbolivar and his capacity to understand what sockpupetry is. You have been an restless and enthusiastic leader of this radical camp with dozens of reverts and attacks in your belt and this is the reason why I did not assume good faith. I admit that I have also (regretfully) attacked you and I have apologised for that but I see here that you have not improved your attitude towards me and other contributors who disagree with this ultranationalist anti-hellenism camp. Stevepeterson (talk) 00:15, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, User:Stevepeterson. You did not notify me of the sockpuppet investigation you initiated against me at the time that you initiated it on my Talk Page. This was the very first notification I got about it. You are required to notify the subject of the investigation at the moment that you initiate it, but you failed to do that. I was notified by a third party a few days after you initiated it. Just making threats on the article Talk Page does not qualify as notification. You failed to do your notification duty at the time you initiated the investigation. Me being aware of it through other avenues does not constitute you doing your duty to notify me. End of story.

And while you made an apology on my Talk Page, you continue to equate me with the Slavic camp despite the multiple number of times I have asked you to prove that I am a member of that point of view. You continue to assume that my comments about "non-Greek" and "not entirely Greek" equate to "Slavic". At least half of your comments both here and on the Talk Page equate to "Taivo is a Slavicist". Your half-hearted attempts at "clarification" or "apology" simply fall flat because you continue to make the same mistake that you supposedly apologized for. And your accusation that I am "anti-Hellenist" is utterly false. Not once have I advocated a removal of material of Greek connections anywhere else in the article. I have always and only advocated for removing the WP:POINTy word "Greek" in the first sentence and in the first sentence only. Your main problem throughout has been in your attempts to expand my comments to cover the entire article. Not once have you actually focused on the issue at hand.

Please point out one single, solitary place where I have defended the pro-Slavic extremism of User:Macedoniarulez. I have pointed out that User:Gtrbolivar's accusations of sockpuppetry are without merit, but that does not equate to a defense of his position vis a vis Macedonia (ancient kingdom). Indeed, if you actually examine the record, you will see that after you inserted the compromise wording into the article, I reverted his attempt to excise "at the periphery of the Greek world". Your assertion that I am a "leader of this radical camp" is utterly without merit and another assumption of bad faith on your part. If others agree with some of my arguments, that doesn't make me a "leader of radicals". Point out one single, solitary "radical" comment I've made. Not a single one because my entire focus has always been on keeping the first sentence from being unnecessarily WP:POINTy, not on changing a single word anywhere else in the article.

I will "improve my attitude toward you" once I see that you have stopped your personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith against me. You don't seem able to write a single comment without accusing me of being a "radical" or a "pro-Slavic" leader or wanting to remove all mention of ancient Macedonia's Greek connections throughout the article. Gtrbolivar's personal attacks and WP:BATTLEground attitude are the subject of this ANI and have been duly documented. He has been warned by an administrator to knock it off and that administrator has also said that a complaint against him based on WP:ARBMAC was warranted. If an ARBMAC complaint is filed, he might be subject to a topic ban. --Taivo (talk) 02:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You indicated to me that you are aware of the investigation immediately after I initiated and 2 days before the first alleged notification first alleged notification. See below:

When an actual consensus has been reached and the change is the result of a lie, doesn't that call into question the actual stability of the edit? If you think I have a sockpuppet, then prove it. Perhaps you missed this comment on your bogus sock-puppet investigation... --Taivo (talk) 08:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC).

I have apologised for not assuming good faith and I have explained what made me lose faith, that you support (even led) an edit-war camp that removed valuable sources, made multiple reversions, and had radical contributors in the anti-greek camp openly expressing ultra-nationalist and racist options, people who you have appeared not to oppose (you came here to support Luxure) or discourage from performing their personal attacks and reversions. On the the hand I now understand (and because we later agreed on a compromise) that you might not share these radical ideas yourself entirely but you have not opposed them openly when expressed from members of the anti-hellenic camp that you supported enthusiastically. You supported the pillar of their nationalism and United Macedonia annexation concept by trying to prove that Ancient Macedonians have no ethnic relation with Ancient Greeks or the modern inhabitants of the region, that we should remove the term Ancient Greek so as not to POINT to the supporters of United Macedonia who obviously have their own reasons to edit an article about a kingdom located outside their borders, and at the same time you have several times used terms such as Greeks versus Macedonians instead of Greek-Macedonians versus Slavic-Macedonians hence denying the right of ethnically Greek inhabitants of Macedonia to be Macedonians and giving the Slav Macedonians the exclusive right on the use of the term Macedonia. So it was the combination of your biased positions namely a) that Ancient Macedonians were a different ethnic group from Ancient and/or Modern Greek inhabitants of the region b) today the term Macedonian should only refer to the residents of the Republic of Macedonia which located on the north of the ancient kingdom; these exactly are the pillars of the Macedonian nationalism and the pseudo-irredentist United Macedonia concept. I believe that I dont make any personal attack to you now, I just highlight that your behaviour is far from being unbiased and neutral and I explain why I (regretfully) failed to assume good faith on your intentions. I don't say that you are radical or that you have bad intentions yourself but perhaps you have been influenced by redicals like Luxure and Macedoniarulez Stevepeterson (talk) 04:44, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You are still in denial that you failed to notify me on my own Talk Page of the sockpuppet investigation immediately after you filed it. All your claims that "I already knew about it" are simply rationalization of your own simple failure to notify me.

You can't even apologize without filling the "apology" with continuing failures to assume good faith and continuing personal attacks and aspersions. Please provide a single, solitary time when I promoted a "United Macedonia" or tried to change a single, solitary word of the article (outside the first sentence), which has ample detail about the precise relationship between the ancient Macedonian kingdom and the ancient Greek city-states. You are simply unable to accept the fact that reasonable scholars can disagree with your sincerely held belief system. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a "Slavic extremist". You fill your rants with totally unsubstantiated personal attacks and baseless aspersions of my motivations. You expand my simple goal of making only the first sentence of the article less WP:POINTy into an attack on the entire article and a pro-Slavic agenda of rewriting ancient Macedonia's relationship to ancient Greece. You cannot write a single comment without a personal attack against me. You are even obsessed enough with your anti-Slavic paranoia to claim that I came to this forum to support User:Luxure. Perhaps you are unable to read the fact that my complaint was posted before Luxure's was posted and that I didn't even mention Luxure in my complaint? I only mentioned User:Gtrbolivar's attacks against me. And your "proof" is that I didn't launch a personal attack against either User:Macedoniarulez or User:Luxure? Give me a break. Luxure wasn't even posting for a couple of weeks while you continued to attack my motivations. And Macedoniarulez's rants were so off the wall that they didn't need a reasoned response. Macedoniarulez's rants were evidence of his mindset and motivation, not mine. I simply find your continuing anti-Slavic paranoia troubling and your continuing attempts to cast aspersions on my comments and my motivations disgusting. You have no proof for any of your attacks--not for sockpuppetry, not for anti-Hellenic opinions, not for pro-Slavic radicalism, not for having radical members of the anti-Hellenic camp post anything, not for touching any detail of the article other than the first sentence. Each comment you post is nothing more than further rationalization and a further weak and groundless attempt to keep from taking responsibility for your own errors, failures, and personal attacks. --Taivo (talk) 05:30, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I will repeat that I have never accused you for directly promoting United Macedonia but for expressing opinions support its ideological pillars. And this is evident from the fact that you are on the same edit-war camp with radicals such as Luxure and User:Macedoniarulez who believes in the annexation of Anc Macedonian territory by the Republic of Macedonia. I am sure that you have checked his profile that is so radical that perhaps could be investigated for possible links with terrorism, but regardless the fact that he is a profound supporter of an annexation idea of Greek, Bulgarian and Albanian Territories by the Republic of Macedonia, you still sympathise him and you even came here to support him: look at your post above:

You still have no idea what a sockpuppet is or how to identify one, User:Gtrbolivar. Are you actually trying to claim that User:Macedoniarulez created the sockpuppet User:Luxure in July of 2013 and edited nothing but Australia articles for over a year just so that he could use Luxure in the discussion at Macedonia (ancient kingdom) in the late summer of 2014? If you actually think that is possible, I have some oceanview property in Arizona that I'd like to sell you. --Taivo (talk) 04:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

And you haven't tried to bring any of these "reasonable scholars" who according to you prove that Ancient Macedonia was not part of the Ancient Greek Civilisation but instead you delete dozens of reliable sources that User:Gtrbolivar brought to prove the opposite. You don't assume good faith on me and you constantly personally attack me when eg you say that I am "obsessed with my anti-Slavic paranoia" which you find "troubling" and "disgusting" and that I dont "take responsibility for my own errors and failures". I believe that I have never attacked you (at least not without apologising), never expressed any anti-Slavic paranoia. I believe that Slavi Macedonians have the right to be called Macedonians but I am anti-nationalist and I am not interested if it comes from Greek Macedonians or Slavic Macedonians. Stevepeterson (talk) 06:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Boo! Did I scare you? Are you serious? Have you ever heard of Freedom of Speech? And please explain how I am a radical? You obviously haven't even had a look through my contribs. If you continue with your childish, defamatory, denigratory, disparaging, pejorative, misrepresentative, damaging, injurious, scurrilous, scandalous, poisonous, malicious, abusive and insulting behaviour, I will launch a complaint against you. YOU are the one being racist, claiming radical ideas. Stop now. I'd like to add that not "practically adopting" the Greek position does not mean the same thing as' "practically adopting" the ethnic Macedonian position Luxure (talk) 06:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

If freedom of speech for you means edit-waring WP articles and (refactoring) other contributors' edits to promote United Macedonia terrorist concepts, then continue your personal attacks to me and do report me to the administrators. I will be happy to leave wikipedia if they decide that I restrict your freedom of speech Stevepeterson (talk) 07:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

You are full of baloney, User:Stevepeterson. Look at the stupidity of your arguments:

• "I have never accused you for directly promoting United Macedonia but for expressing opinions support its ideological pillars". That is a ridiculous comment. So just because I might happen to state a single view that matches an "ideological pillar" of some organization, that means that I support that organization? And what if that view happens to be right? Does that mean that I automatically accept the entire ideological structure of a group? If I express the view that the US should never have invaded Iraq in 2003, does that mean that I support the entire ideological platform of radical Islam because that is one of its ideological pillars? It's a stupid argument. Stop making it because it is a paranoid argument that means nothing. Unless you can prove that I support a "United Macedonia", then you are simply making a personal attack by even mentioning a single point of similarity between myself and a group that I have no association with. You are implying guilt by association.
• "You still sympathise him (User:Macedoniarulez) and you even came here to support him:" Another personal attack. Just because I point out that User:Gtrbolivar has zero proof that Macedoniarulez is a sockpuppeteer doesn't mean that I support his radical views. Why would I even bother to look at his user page? I don't look at anyone's user page just because they make a comment on a Talk Page. And just because I don't support another user being bullied or railroaded by unwarranted sockpuppet investigations (as you tried to bully me), doesn't mean that I agree with their argument or point of view. I would defend you against a groundless sockpuppet accusation just as I defended Macedoniarulez against Gtrbolivar's charges. And I did not "come here to support him". I initiated this complaint because of User:Gtrbolivar's personal attacks against me. It had nothing to do with Macedoniarulez. Read the complaint.
• "I believe that I have never attacked you (at least not without apologising), never expressed any anti-Slavic paranoia". Are you actually serious? Every time you comment about me here, you cannot write a single sentence until you start to groundlessly link my views with radical Slavic irredentism, the "United Macedonia" movement, and anti-Hellenic bias. Your apologies are always hollow because you turn around in the very next post and make the same attacks again. How many times have you now accused me of supporting or leading or having others make comments in support of anti-Hellenic, pro-Slavic, "United Macedonia", radical views? I can no longer count the times.

A simple question for you: When I started the discussion thread on the article's Talk Page called "Request for Comment 2" (), why did I only notify two other editors? I notified User:Dr.K () and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise (). Please prove to the world why these two editors would be considered to be part of my radical anti-Hellenic cabal? If you cannot, then I fully expect you to cease and desist in these groundless accusations of radical anti-Hellenism against me. --Taivo (talk) 07:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok Taivo thats enough. I have received so many attacks from Luxure and your good-self that I simply cant take any more. Just look at the conversations here and above, how many names your camp has called me, i count 20: full of baloney, paranoic, antislavic, racist, incapable of speaking english, ignorant, childish, defamatory, denigratory, disparaging, pejorative, misrepresentative, damaging, injurious, scurrilous, scandalous, poisonous, malicious, abusive and insulting. You wont hear from me for a while I think but I am surprised how you and Luxure have managed to turned yourselves into victims and no Administrator in this noticeboard has ever considered taking action to stop your continuous insulting. Stevepeterson (talk) 07:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:POT, User:Stevepeterson. --Taivo (talk) 07:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody wants to watch you guys hash out the same shit over and over for thousands words. Wait for someone to read the diffs. Honestly, you're all out of line in my eyes. 165.214.12.71 (talk) 18:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive behavior by EllenCT

This is part of a long string of confrontations with EllenCT mainly in honeybee or pesticide related articles Neonicotinoid and Colony Collapse Disorder. I'll preface this by saying that I hoped as a relatively new editor to never pursue administrator action and be able to resolve disputes and editor behavior issues without, but that does not seem feasible in this case not for lack of trying for some time to work with EllenCT on these behavior issues.

So far, EllenCT has:

Accused me of COI without evidence against WP:COI, and continually hounded me with veiled claims of astroturfing. , , , and attributing content I pasted to my sandbox from a problem article as my own content for further COI accusations .

Refuses to discuss on the article talk page, specifically stating she is assuming bad faith on my part per the continued WP:HOUNDING and failing to drop the stick on COI all because I posted a peer-reviewed literature review as an example of a secondary source. She has since been on a tirade about how the source is biased and unreliable even though we were not proposing content on it. Main discussion here ]

Stated her reason for not attempting to use the article talk page before going to RSN for a dispute was her assumption of bad faith , which is counter to WP:AGF throughout the whole talk section.

Consistently brings up editor behavior concerns (whether unfounded or not) on the article talk page, and has stated, "I strongly object to your implication that I should not refer to that behavior, and I strongly object to your "last warning" threat. I reserve the right to refer to both that issue and your pervious comment here whenever the question of your neutrality arises, as I see fit." This is a blatant violation of WP:TPG as she refuses to use user talk pages to discuss editor behavior and has stated she will continue to use the article talk pages.

Demonstrated lack of basic knowledge related to the topic from time to time. This was kindly pointed out by another user, but it didn't seem clear that the message got across that she needed to slow down and acknowledge mistakes were made. Being factually incorrect is fine, but the way that has been dealt with (or lack of) does seem like tendentious behavior is potentially affecting her ability to make competent edits. Quite a bit of time was spent trying to alleviate mistakes that she wouldn't back down from.

The main concerning policies or guidelines are WP:COI, WP:AGF, and WP:TPG. These concerns are all rooted our in policy WP:CIVIL. This behavior runs afoul of that policy, especially from WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL that includes personal attacks and "quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold, or to malign them". She has continued to claim I am biased and furthering an agenda when all I did was list the source in question as an example of one secondary source, and nothing more.

She continues to post about perceived editor behavior issues on article talk page after being warned multiple times not to:

Towards the end of my comment

Still kind warning.

Warning with a good in-depth explanation, especially on the ground-shifting and avoiding questions by asking new ones without responding to previous ones. Explained to her here.

Second to last warning.

Final warning.

I originally had more of a narrative, but some helpful users guided me on more suitable concise formatting expected for ANI. The more detailed version is below just for posterity (or if someone really wants the details):

In conclusion, there are multiple editor behavior issues here. EllenCT has essentially stated she is assuming bad faith on my part, even though I have told her she was vastly mistaken in why I listed the source and she continues to misrepresent what I said. Adding on the use of the article talk page to attack users, we have a number of disruptive editor behaviors that continue through WP:IDHT after repeated warnings. This establishes a series of WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior that alone in a single edit may be tolerable, but accumulated over the course of this summer indicates the inability of this editor to follow Misplaced Pages's policies on civility, not to mention her stated intention to continue doing so. There is no sign this continued behavior will stop.

I could see this general behavior potentially warranting a site ban given the history, but I'd personally prefer to assume EllenCT has a belly button, and that something just set her off on this tirade in this topic specifically. With that, I'd instead at least suggest a topic ban on bee and pesticide related articles. I've always been open to other solutions to resolve this issue, but there don't appear to be any additional options at this point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 09:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read. The ArbCom requests that statements be limited to 500 words. Is there any reason that the community should be expected to parse much longer walls of text? Is it possible that EllenCT didn't hear you because your wall of text was too long? Waiting for an intelligible complaint. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I already pointed out that this was long because there's a lot of content that's not easily condensed, and I don't want to make flimsy accusations per WP:BOOMERANG. Do you have any suggestions on what would help? I stated I have not posted at ANI before, so I'd ask for just a little patience at first if there's a convention I missed. The main paragraphs to read would be the first four. I could did collapse most of the remaining as general background so people could read the finer details if they want if that helps focus it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

SlimVirgin Above the dif, EllenCT wrote "Attempting to present this source as a literature review raises serious questions relative to bias, neutrality, and the insertion of paid advocacy in to Misplaced Pages articles" Kingofaces directly addressed that by writing "'I'd suggest backing down on the pitchfork mentality and trying to manufacture biases on my part. We address content here on Misplaced Pages, not beat around the bush by trying to assume a bias to an editor when the evidence doesn't suggest it. If you want to discuss my professional involvement in EAB or entomology in general (I worked with control methods where insecticide use wasn't an option), I suggest bringing it to my talk page rather than derailing the conversation here" EllenCT did NOT bring it to his Talk page and she did NOT bring it to COIN (null search here) and instead persisted in wielding the pitchfork. This is disruptive behavior. Someone could always bring it to COIN. I have not; I find his face value disclosures I linked to above to be sufficient. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 21 September 2014 (UTC)