Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:09, 2 October 2014

• WT:GGTF

• Welcome to the GGTF: the gender gap task force. Please sign up if you'd like to help.
• The talk page is for friendly discussion about anything related to closing Misplaced Pages's gender gap, including asking for help with articles, AfDs, and so on.
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Disruption

If someone is being disruptive, please follow one of the usual procedures (my preferred procedure is to ignore disruption, thus making it non-disruptive, but there is a host of WP options available). I am not enjoying having these threads disrupted by gender-specific posturing, particularly the thread above which started with a thoughtful comment from Anne Delong, which is worthy of serious discussion. Buried in the ensuing thread, which will probably never achieve anything, are a number of other issues worthy of discussion, which are lost in the green ink.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC).

@Rich Farmbrough: Did you mean to put this section lower in the page? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I wrote it on 2 September. I just changed my sig to allow it to be archived. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC).

Bigotry against women proposal

Per the section above, I'm moving this controversial proposal from the Project to talk page for discussion:

• Update Misplaced Pages:WikiBigotry essay to include bigotry towards women.

SPECIFICO talk 13:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually it's not that controversial in that editors there think it needs to be done. And thus it doesn't need to be on main page here. Of course, "controversial" here means among those who think there is a gender gap and something should be done about it, not those who want to nitpick the project out of existance.

I mean the LGBT Wikiproject doesn't let people against LGBT's dictate what's on their page, does it? (This is in response to various comments above about "anyone can comment.") Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:10, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Has someone proposed particular changes to be made to the essay? It already includes "gender" in its list of prejudices, and it doesn't appear to say anything about any of the individual targets of bigotry other than listing them. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I suppose it would go into a new section as part of the "User directed" examples "1.1.3 Gender based" --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 03:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I had some things in mind I wrote down on my do list, but haven't had a chance to deal with. Plus I'm still accumulating relevant info and sources. See next thread relevant to sources. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• Carol, I find your comment those who think there is a gender gap and something should be done about it, not those who want to nitpick the project out of existance crosses the line of AGF. Has anyone said they want the project obliterated? Short of abundant evidence, it will be helpful to all if you bite your tongue and keep that opinion to yourself. All it does is creates unnecessary tension. Please. Two kinds of pork (talk) 02:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think Carol's observation is completely appropriate, and I endorse it. I am offended you are telling her to bite her tongue. Self-harm is not an appropriate thing to recommend to another editor, I hope you will refactor that suggestion. And surely there are editors who in good faith think this project shouldn't exist. This sort of thing has happened to many other projects.--Milowent • 02:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it has, but it's gotten to the point that everyone here needs to bend over backwards to be respectful to each other. Look at it this way, the jab in her quote didn't add anything helpful, did it? Why not just leave it out? Believe me, I've typed plenty of things that were snarky and relevant. I found it was more helpful to remove the snark. I support this project. Carol has implied numerous times that I don't. That is far more offensive then asking someone to bite their tongue. But that's just my opinion.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Draft of Resources page

Many Wikiprojects have such resources pages. Given all the denials there is systemic bias or a gender gap or that it matters or that we should do something about it, we certainly need one. The draft page linked explains content and has a draft intro.

The biggest issue probably is, as I put it there: whatever the Gender Gap task force's policy might be on additions, deletions, etc. Clearly stated policies will help define appropriate entries and vandalism, be it off topic entries or removing entries not liked. I think stated policy should include these points:

• New entries:

1. Should be relevant to closing the gender gap
2. Should be relevant to existing subcategories; bring new category proposals to the GGTF Resources talk page
3. Should have a link to a working site (unless it is a book or a temporarily nonworking link is noted)
4. Should not duplicate existing entries from same source or be trivial summaries of a better source
5. Comments on significant findings/comments should be 25-50 words

• Deletions:

1. Should be of material that does not conform to the above; vandalism will be removed promptly
2. Other material found to be problematic as discussed on the GGTF Resources talk page

• Other questions and discussions should be brought to the GGTF Resources talk page

Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pulling this together, Carol. Are you thinking of putting a link on the main page, or presenting it in some other way? As for what to add and remove, yes, the above all sounds good. SlimVirgin 18:27, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I think (1) should read

1. Should be relevant to reducing systemic bias.

In deletions,

Strike (1) "vandalism will be removed promptly" as redundant, since vandalism does not conform to page content requirements.

Strike (2) since content which is disputed can be stricken and discussed on talk to seek consensus, per ordinary WP editing protocol.

SPECIFICO talk 18:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Evidently no one has noticed that this is a listing full of the evidence that others have been demanding for weeks and I kept promising. You are welcome. Let's discuss section by section. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You'll need to cite text or page numbers. I'm sure you've read every word of the listed documents, but a bibliography like that is too general to be cited as evidence or used to discuss specific assertions of fact. SPECIFICO talk 18:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe it is meant only to be a list, a clearinghouse, of sources that someone creating or editing a related article might find useful. What to cite (text, pages) would depend upon the editor and topic. Lightbreather (talk) 00:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Correct, Lightbreather: I included a few quotes from overviews of research and things I found significant, just as an idea of how the list could be a bit more useful, without providing too much detail. But I know most people aren't going to follow the threads. And it is really long, so it occurs to me it could be divided up into 3 pages.

• Since there are so many research fields, a separate "research page" with a short paragraph on each study and various commentary, including the most detail RS on the study;
• a Wiki links page with links to other projects;
• an articles and blogs page that would include the best RS on top and all the other interesting things that are educational and helpful for this project if not WP:RS for articles, as we would tell them. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The intro section suggests there have been denials of a gender gap. I haven't seen one. Can you think about rewording that? Actually, the entire sentence is confrontational. Why is it necessary. Surely one can explain the need for a resources page with something like - many wikiprojects have resources pages to provide a useful list of relevant information. That's a bit too bland, but why not make it positive, instead of confrontational?--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

In another thread here SlimVirgin SPECIFICO suggested: If Carolmooredc keeps her suggested references in her own user space, there will be no need for discussion or consensus. I think that such links provide a good way to encourage editors to share without concern about their efforts being judged here.

I think we do need a resources page that can be edited as other members see fit and others can debate how it will go. Obviously, certain parties are so intent on reverting me that putting it up in any other way will just lead to trouble. However, until it is clear from a more mature editing environment here, or some outside intervention, that we can have such discussions without constant nitpicking and questions about whether the project should even exist, any major projects evidently will have to be put on hold. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not questioning the need for a resources page. I support it. I've contributed to it. My question, which still stands, is why not just propose a resources page, rather than making inflammatory remarks such as claiming someone has denied that there is a gender gap. I haven't seen that once, much less multiple times.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:56, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

What needs removal from research section?

Wikimedia Foundation sponsored studies

Outside studies

Studies on similar topics and/or communities

Thanks for your attention. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I may be misunderstanding the task here. Are there three sections proposal for removal from the research section? Why? I haven't reviewed them all, but I know some of them, and they appear relevant. Ok, I've now read the preceding section, and see the impetus.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be better to move this thread to the resources talk-page, currently at User talk:Carolmooredc/My_Sandbox_1. It's making this page a bit hard to negotiate. Also, Carol, do you mind if I link to your sandbox on the main task-force page? It's a great thing you've pulled together, so it would be good to have it available there. SlimVirgin 01:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Got to run out in a second, but feel free to link where appropriate under resources. Yes, people might go by that talk page and say what they think does or does not belong in such a Resources Page here and we can figure it out over the next few weeks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin 06:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

How male editors/men can be better participants here.

I’ve watched the disruptive editing. I’ve seen the “I’m innocently asking something without realizing it’s a giant assertion of my male privilege, and is meant to protect that privilege from changes.” And, I’ve seen the ways in which men/male editors attack women editors on here. If Misplaced Pages has a systemic bias, so too does it have an ignorance issue – because I doubt many of the men on here want to be the assholes they come off as (WP:GOODFAITH here).

So I thought, as someone who identifies as a man and is committed to closing the gender gap here, I would leave a few tips for my fellow male-identifying homo sapien sapiens (bots and cyborgs are welcome to read too). I ask that you read these, think about them, and add to them if you have anything productive or constructive to add.

• Before responding to a thread/comment/etc, ask yourself why you are responding: is it out of genuine concern for the topic? Is it to prove a point? Is it because you are personally offended? Where does your answer come from: concern for the WikiProject or concern for yourself? If any of those answers is about you, it’s probably better to write your feelings down in a word document or blog, and not on Misplaced Pages. People experience things, and you are not the arbiter of whether their experiences were "real" or not. You might think efforts are misguided, but find ways to constructively engage and not be a negative niles.
• Before citing WP:_____ in response to anything, ask yourself why you are citing it: to win an argument? Misplaced Pages is not about winning. To make the encyclopedia better? Remember, Ignore all rules if it makes the encyclopedia better - and having more perspectives and points of view from the other side of the (socially constructed) gender binary undoubtedly makes the encyclopedia better. Or, are you citing WPs to demonstrate your expertise of Misplaced Pages over someone else? That's not welcome here or anywhere on Misplaced Pages.
• We all fail at life/humanity sometimes. I've done it. It's ok to say you're sorry, or that you're wrong, or that you shouldn't have typed something that you did. People will appreciate it. So, if you've been on the wrong side of the above, maybe you should send a message to the editors you were engaged with that says "I'm sorry. I feel very passionate about this topic, but I know I can be a better person about it. Just wanted to let you know I realized that. Looking forward to editing some more with you in the future." You'll feel better about yourself, and be on your way to being a better editor.
• Are you really interested in the gender gap, in a constructive way? If not, move on. Life is too short, there are too many articles that need to be written and revised, and Misplaced Pages is about using team work to create a free and open encyclopedia. If you are interested in fixing the epic gender gap, take a seat and listen. You can learn a lot about yourself and how to be a better editor here.

Thebrycepeake (talk) 18:35, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Erics response, and the responses to that are moved to the next section (by me). I believe Eric raises one of the three or four basic questions that need answering. If anyone has "issues" they can move it back here, at the risk, perhaps, of obfuscating the discussion. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:58, 4 September 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, Thebrycepeake. Thoughtful post. Lightbreather (talk) 19:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, excellent. And the basis of a wonderful essay, we may hope :-) !!! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:35, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Excellent points! --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 03:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• @ Thebrycepeake - Re: "is it out of genuine concern for the topic? Is it to prove a point? Is it because you are personally offended? Where does your answer come from: concern for the WikiProject or concern for yourself?" - How about this option: out of concern for Misplaced Pages that it not be turned into a politicized battleground to fight some sort of gender war. I'd say this project and WikiProject Conservatism (both driven by what they perceive as systemic biases at WP and both of which at times resort of a battleground worldview) are equally in need of close scrutiny and to be called out when they step over the battleground line, as well as to have their outspoken and politicized critics monitored and reined in periodically. I'd say that's a totally valid reason for my participation here and there. Misplaced Pages is itself the project, the work groups exist to improve WP, not to undermine or politicize it. Carrite (talk) 23:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that you have a valid concern, but then I get here: "Misplaced Pages is itself the project, the work groups exist to improve WP, not to undermine or politicize it." By nature of being a project, Misplaced Pages is political. What gets included and excluded, those are political too. The fact that, say, facts about gender disparities in various scientific medical fields (to say nothing of this place), or violence against women in various public spheres of life, are systematically deleted despite meeting the typical criteria makes it quite clear that Misplaced Pages was politicized from the get go. If a group of individuals says "we're being systematically excluded from an inclusive project," I suppose the most democratic thing to do is find a way to include them -- also a political decision. So it all comes back to the question: are you commenting here out of a concern for the project? What types of evidence are you bringing to constructively engage with the project in a productive way? Or, are you commenting in a way that is more distractive, disruptive, and about your own political commitments (and not that of a strong and diverse encyclopedia)? Thebrycepeake (talk) 00:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration on this Task force

As per recent discussions, I have opened a Request for Arbitration: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration

Please add comments in the Arbitration Request. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't provided a detailed explanation of the issues. Would one or more of the participants please provide, in their statement to the ArbCom, what issues they think should be addressed? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Why not close this now? The issue is three people disrupting the project despite numerous complaints. If those people actually work more collaboratively, there won't be a problem any more. You haven't even given them a chance to do so. Why not just withdraw this as ill formed and premature? Otherwise I'll have to waste an hour coming up with 500 words explaining why it is and so will others. Please just close it. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be 500 words. It has to be no more than 500 words. I'm not closing the request, which was suggested among other people by the founder. I will try to add something. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Can't we ratchet this down, CM? Your complaint was rejected. It's not helpful to repeat your failed accusations while simultaneously denying that they should be adjudicated at Arbcom. Why not just get back to work here? SPECIFICO talk 21:53, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear I want this closed down/declined, in case anyone's confused, and stated it here: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement_by_Carolmooredc. I was hoping to take a few days off from this project and take care of other things! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I accept your statement. Please consider striking your renewed allegation in this thread of your failed complaint. Enjoy your vacation. SPECIFICO talk 22:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, you are not helping to deescalate the situation here. CMDC did not file at ArbCom, someone else did. CMDC appears to not want to go down that road. Reality is that you have been part of the problem by behaving in a tendentious and WP:BAITing manner. However, more trips to the drama boards are not, at present, part of the solution. Everyone taking a nice deep breath and dropping the stick would do. Montanabw 22:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

@Carol, on the one hand you claim you want to shut this down, then in the very next sentence you start your accusations all over again. You can't have it both ways. Stop the passive aggressive nonsense. If Arbcom takes this, I doubt it will go well for you.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:54, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Comparisons with mental disorders are not going to be very constructive here. —Neotarf (talk) 03:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

In the article, low and behold Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) revision IV describes passive-aggressive personality disorder. I think the reverter might have misread the "mental disorder" as being a criticism of me as opposed to a criticism of the inappropriate use of the term passive-aggressive. Note that the initiator brought up the issues and fleshing them out was appropriate. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Another constructive post. I'd again like to ask you to strike your accusations above. That would be powerful evidence to Arbcom in support of your pleading that the proposed case is not needed and should be rejected. SPECIFICO talk 19:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The case is likely to be rejected based on what I have seen so far, both WP:ANI and arbcom are saying this is a matter for editors here to work out. Nobody here can have it all each side is going to have to give some here and admit they are not 100% right on their views. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:18, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE It seems the arbitrators have had a change of heart and the case looks like it is going to be accepted. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Marie Claire list

SPECIFICO mentioned this list, the articles are:

1. Barbara Bush
2. Chelsea Clinton
3. Rachel Lloyd
4. Alicia Keys
5. Nancy Lublin
6. Gabrielle Giffords
7. Stephanie Schriock
8. Eva Longoria
9. Melinda Gates
10. Frida Giannini
11. Tammy Tibbetts
12. Olivia Wilde
13. Kimberly Bryant
14. Dina Habib Powell
15. Taylor Swift
16. Shakira
17. Cecile Richards
18. Jennifer Hudson
19. Christy Turlington Burns
20. Jennifer Garner

A very narrow selection of women, but of course creating or improving them is no bad thing. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC).

• I started Stephanie Schriock. Awhile back I ran across the set of Notable American Women, 1607-1950 (1971, 3 vols.) and randomly created entries on a few women listed in there. Its not hard to come up with candidates, separate and apart from recruiting editors interested in creating them.--Milowent • 02:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that. I started Tammy Tibbetts. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC).
    

Here is a list from Glamour (magazine)

1. Maritza R. Alarcón
2. Kendall Ciesemier
3. Arielle Alter Confino
4. Jordana Alter Confino
5. Erika Alden DeBenedictis (lol - see 23131 Debenedictis.--Milowent • 21:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC))
6. Syreeta Gates
7. Tavi Gevinson
8. Windsor Genevieve Hanger
9. Sejal Hathi
10. Sarah Hemminger
11. Stephanie Kaplan
12. Haley Kilpatrick
13. Divinity Matovu
14. Sharmin Mollick
15. Rachel Nalebuff
16. Hannah Salwen
17. Danielle Snyder
18. Tammy Tibbetts
19. Zim Ugochukwu
20. Annie Wang

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC).

RfA proposal

I have submitted proposal to help narrow the gender gap in WP's administrator corps. I think this is called for because WP's RfA process has always been sensitive to off-wiki canvassing, poison-pilling, and other factors that makes it an unfair process. Cla68 (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Cla68 Who has given you the right to act on behalf of the project as you did by saying "Proposal from the Gender task Project Force" in the headline? This seems like an attempt to ridicule the project to me. Iselilja (talk) 07:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

You're right that I shouldn't have used that section title without discussing it here first, but I resent the implication that I wasn't serious about the proposal. I have been through the RfA process, and I thus have personal experience with how corrupted and rigged it is. This proposal, IMO, is the only real way we're ever going to get more female admins into WP's administrative corps. Cla68 (talk) 07:58, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

In any case, you always should preview ideas here since some better ideas might be generated from a proposal. Not that I have any today, but definitely something that needs work on. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• That proposal was the most stupid idea I've seen on wikipedia in the last 24 hours, which means it was truly stupid. I am sure it was proposed in good faith, even though it was originally titled "GenderGap task force proposal" despite not being from the task force, not being propsed by a listed member of the task force, and not being discussed here prior to being proposed. I am sure Cla68 is unaware that his methodology of proposing it guaranteed failure as it would in any social setting known to the human race outside dictatorship. In any event, the statement above that "this proposal, IMO, is the only real way we're ever going to get more female admins into WP's administrative corps" is such a tone-deaf insult to every sentient being that I am sure it was not intended to be so. I do not know what prior discussions have been had on this page about how to recruit additional female admin candidates, but looking to the successful strategies employed by groups like EMILY's List which recruit and support Democratic female candidates for office in the United States, may be worth a look.--Milowent • 13:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll note, without further comment, that comments on this page about the flaws of affirmative action remedies have repeatedly been met with derogation and accusatory comments, here and at ANI and Arbcom. Perhaps now it's more widely understood that these concerns are well-founded. SPECIFICO talk 13:46, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Since affirmative action is often attacked by virulent racists and misogynists, some skepticism meeting comments on the "flaws" of such programs on this page would not be shocking. This is the same way I'd treat a Boston Red Sox fan making any observation about the New York Yankees. That's about my level of understanding of whatever debate has occurred previously; I'm not suggesting that Boston Red Sox fans are virulent racists and misogynists. I am concerned that your comment suggests you think Cla68's proposal was an intentional lead balloon, which seems to be quite a slanderous accusation.--Milowent • 13:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

You're concerned? Grow up. Every other oppose vote asked if it was a joke. Take your fake morale outrage out with the trash.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:07, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

If every other oppose vote asked if it was a joke, that is another serious accusation against Cla68. I would tread carefully here sir. Attacking me by telling me to grow up is unacceptable. I will not stand for it.--Milowent • 14:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Stand, sit, float, whatever. Cla68's proposal was regarded as a joke for good reason. Please don't go to ANI and waste everyone's time with this.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I've never started an ANI thread, I actually don't know how, though I presume I could figure it out. But it will be up to Cla68 to determine if he wants to defend his integrity, in whatever methods he chooses.--Milowent • 14:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

As someone else wrote on Jimbo wales talk page: It would have worked. Editors running for Admin would all have self-identified themselves as female regardless of their real sex, so the gender gap would have vanished. Count Iblis (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
My best wiki-laugh of the last 32 hours... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

+1 Iselilja (talk) 20:42, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, the fact that two males and one probable male brought questionable "affirmative action" proposals here does not mean that all defacto affirmative actions regarding the gender gap are problematic: having targets for numbers of women in Misplaced Pages; actively recruiting women editors and administrators; helping retain women editors through various means, including improving enforcement of civility/anti-harassment rules; and promoting the project to potentially interested parties within Misplaced Pages. I'm personally happy enough with all of that.

Nevertheless, at some point there may be a sensible "affirmative action" proposal or two forth coming from either a man or a women regarding some policy changes or other that may be worth more discussion. I haven't the faintest idea what they might be, so don't ask me to think any up. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

As I know by personal experience, WP's administrative processes are riddled with behind-the-scenes corruption, canvassing, and inconsistency. An affirmative action type remedy is likely the only way to fix the admin gender gap. My proposal was not a joke. The insults thrown my way will likely be brought up later if there continues to be conflict within this task force. Cla68 (talk) 23:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

While I did find that analysis funny and probably accurate, that doesn't mean it's impossible that some new policy that would be helpful could be come up with eventually. But to me it seems like something that would come after a lot more women joined, there were better policies against incivility and harassment, and it still seemed necessary. While I've seen all sorts of dubious stuff at the Admin level (mostly failure to act on bad behavior, I'm not totally cynical at this point. In the interim, to dissuade anyone from just jumping up publicly declaring something comes from the GGTF, I just changed relevant point under "measures" to: Consider as a group other proposals that might help women effectively deal with bias. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You're touching on something important here. Unless WP's administration is forced into doing something concrete and positive, they will fail to do anything to effectively solve the problem. It will just be the same old thing, over and over. Cla68 (talk) 00:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't think that your proposal was thought through carefully enough or presented well, but I am quite appalled and disgusted at the way you've been treated for having the nerve to suggest positive action. I knew there was a bit of a problem here, but it's worse than I thought. However, I think we have to accept - and I mean this literally and without any pejorative implication - that white heterosexual males find it hard to understand what positive/affirmative action is for and how it works. We need to be more subtle. Deb (talk) 10:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for joining, Deb. More women here, just like more women on Misplaced Pages, might help create a more serious and productive atmosphere.

Speaking only to the proposal itself, I do think it is correct that there are lots of editors who would love to be Admins but either were shot down or think they would be. If only 10 of them decide to declare themselves as women, either in their current personas or as new ones that have a "quick learning curve" in order to fast track becoming admins, it would be an abuse. And one that probably would get worse over time as more male editors got into the "game". And it would lead to distrust of whether actual women admins were women, especially if/when they used their ability to block or ban editors, some of whom would then throw that accusation on top of all the others to protest the admin action. Getting more women in and keeping them in through enforcement of policies vs. incivility and harassment have to be higher priority goals, at least until a less abusable proposal comes along. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I am appalled and disgusted by the racist and sexist insult against white heterosexual males, and adding "without any pejorative implication" doesn't help, it's not an implication, and it's certainly not subtle, it's a blatantly offensive attack against a group you have no reason or evidence to bash here. Who are you going to blame next? The Jews? The Asians? The Masons? We are not going to cure racism and sexism by replacing it with racism and sexism targeted at another group. Cut it out. Please. Completely. Cut it out. --GRuban (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not clear exactly who you replying to. In the context of who might abuse the proposal in question, maybe there would be some Arab or Latino guys or openly LGBT individuals who felt they'd be discriminated against for their ethnic heritage or sexual orientation, but who might "make it" if they stated they were a female of that heritage. Not a great way to deal with possible discrimination, but one that some might choose as easier, if such a proposal was in place. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You might want to clarify that. As is:maybe there would be some Arab or Latino guys or openly LGBT individuals who felt they'd be discriminated against for their ethnic heritage or sexual orientation, but who might "make it" if they stated they were a female of that heritage verges into transphobic territory. AnonNep (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Carol, I wrote in response to Deb's comment; I see I over-indented one, apologies, corrected. It does, in fact, use that exact phrase, "white heterosexual males" as part of an uncalled-for attack. If you want to find a specific phrase that you doubt exists on a page, most web browsers have a search feature triggered by control-f or command-f. You responded to Deb's comment yourself, was it really so long that the phrase was lost within it? --GRuban (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It is not an attack, it's a statement of fact that white heterosexual males often find it difficult to understand the reasoning behind "affirmative" or "positive" action, whichever term you prefer. I think I made it clear that this is an issue we have to deal with instead of simply blaming white heterosexual males for all discrimination. Deb (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a racist and sexist attack. It's grouping people by their race, sex, and sexual preference, and then saying that they - (They meaning what? All of them, some of them, most of them? Left unspecified!) - don't understand something. It's wrong, both in the sense that it is offensive and actively harmful to the purpose of our group, and in the sense that it is inappropriate to the context, and in the sense that it is inherently logically fallacious. It is harmful to our purpose because it is trying to replace discrimination against one group by singling out another. It's inappropriate to the context because it is being made in the context of the shooting down of Cla68s proposal, and you have no evidence that those who shot it down were white heterosexual males, so it looks an awful lot like blaming the usual scapegoats. It is inherently logically fallacious because if it is supposed to mean that all white hetero males don't understand something, then it is clearly incorrect, since certainly numerous white hetero males do, and if it is supposed to mean that some white hetero males don't understand something, then it is meaningless, since certainly plenty of people who are at least one of not white or not het or not male also don't understand, and if it is supposed to mean that most white hetero males don't understand, then it is an assertion without any data to support it that certainly needs plenty. But the most important part is that it is offensive. Cut it out. --GRuban (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, duh . Let's just say that's one woman's opinion and others will have others. Perhaps more in the scope of WP:Wikiproject LGBT and/or Misplaced Pages:WikiProject African diaspora. I personally don't usually narrow it down that much . Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to enforce civility and anti sexism and racism, you need to apply it equally to everyone. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Encouraging, and if necessary enforcing, civility is the important thing and probably easier to analyze in regards to Misplaced Pages behavior. And I think with a little reflection most of us can figure out the difference between sexist or racist words and action and those that are a bit ignorant or insensitive. Between those willing to discuss and correct any inappropriate behavior and those committed to bigotry/dominance/running off their adversaries, etc. Also the difference between initiating bad behavior and losing ones temper because others keep initiating it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• By the way, I was wrong about the traditional passing percentage in RfA, it's 70%, not 65%. So, if I were to do it again I would probably propose something like reducing the passing percentage for women editors to 60%. The thing people need to understand is why this is necessary. The RfA process is serioiusly tainted and unfair, which is why something like this is necessary. Cla68 (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• It will never pass. I could start an RfC on whether affirmative action is acceptable. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 03:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to start an RfC on User:Cla68's proposal, do it on User:Cla68's talk page. It's not appropriate for here since it's his personal proposal. As a group of people supporting the project, we have not even discussed definitively what form proposals here take and what endorsing them would mean and what the applicable policies are, so it's just something here that different people have different views on. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The last part of my comment was cut off, I meant that "I could start an RfC. Less than 20% would support it though". I wouldn't actually do it, and I also mean affirmative action in general. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. Affirmative action here mostly means just encouraging women to join, which is Wikimedia Foundation Policy. Civility/etc. are ways of keeping women and men from being run off the site by uncivil individuals. What you oppose are structural changes that would favor women over men, which also can be called affirmative action. While I doubt any would pass, it is not impossible something acceptable might come along someday. So you really can't say "we're against any and all affirmative action measures for all time." You can say "such and such proposal which is being supported by a number of people should not be implemented". However, in this case a only a couple people support Cla68's. So it's really a moot point. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women writers

• Via an invitation to join, I just became aware of this new Wikiproject. I believe I got invited because over the past few days a number of articles I have created were tagged for the project, which made me realize I've written quite a few bios of female authors. I guarantee this is because I've happened across them and they didn't already have articles. Folks like Elizabeth Bisland, Isabel Scott Rorick, and the intriguing Ruth Cranston. So it seems to be a project worth checking out.--Milowent • 17:56, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Can you do anything with Sara Jeannette Duncan, please? Or point it in the direction of someone who can. I've asked before but got nowhere. I did substantially improve the thing but I'm pretty sure that there is much more could be said of her feminism. - Sitush (talk) 20:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Gosh, Sitush, that's already quite a long article. No doubt it could use additional improvement but its not easily done without knowing the subject well! When I create something like Isabel Mallon or Anne Hampton Brewster I get the advantage of being able to craft just a start-class bio that provides the nutshell story of their importance. I guess this means I'm lazy. :-) --Milowent • 14:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to join WikiProject Women writers

Hello WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force! We are looking for editors to join WikiProject Women writers, an outreach effort which aims at improving articles about women writers on Misplaced Pages. We thought you might be interested, and hope that you will join us. Thank you!

--Rosiestep (talk) 04:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Article rescue

I had an admin restore Eunice Anderson to my sandbox. If anyone can find sources to rescue this BLP, I would be grateful for your help,Two kinds of pork_Bacon 00:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I did a little tweak for ya. Hope ya don't mind :) GoodDay (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I've spent a few hours looking for more sources, but am drawing a blank. does anyone here have acess to research databases?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 17:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Countering systemic bias/open tasks#Women

As listed on the main page, Wikiproject Countering Systemic Bias Open Tasks/Women and women's studies has two lists of articles of women that need to be created or beefed up. (I just fixed up the main page to make it clear the countering systemic bias listing is the main "go to" one for this project.)

At some point I want to clean that up some more and go through the following (already listed on main page) to add likely articles:

• Wikproject Feminism Open Tasks
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Dictionary_of_National_Biography/Missing_women
• International Women of Courage Award
• Category:Wikibomb2014 (stub articles)
• list by User:Dsp13
• User:99of9's Chart of articles regarding Forbes "100 power women"

It's a matter of putting them in proper categories, removing ones which look like they are in good shape, removing dated commentary, etc. Anyway, feel free to join in the fun and put a note on any you've done if you do it while this list still up. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 05:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

If anyone wants some real issues to look at

Here are some articles with serious concerns that members of this task force might find worth looking at. I will say no more. Montanabw 02:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/GamerGate
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Zoe_Quinn
• https://en.wikipedia.org/GamerGate
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Anita_Sarkeesian
• https://en.wikipedia.org/Tropes_vs._Women_in_Video_Games

@Montanabw: You're adding an in-progress AfD, that's canvassing. This task force is about the gender gap on Misplaced Pages. As far as I know, the last four articles are fine, but the first one isn't, because you're linking to an in progress AfD, which counts as influencing a discussion. You should probably remove that link. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 03:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense, I just mentioned that it exists. No violation of WP:CANVASS here. Montanabw 04:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• I doubt that link is going to influence the debate, its a super long discussion. Its rather silly to see some of the "delete" votes based on the voters allegedly knowing the story better and calling the press irretrievably biased. WP:GNG and sourcing is all we do around here. The only valid delete votes are those really advocating for a merge, instead of keeping a dedicated article arising from an ex-boyfriends jealous screed and its aftermath. Like deletion sorting, its often ok to notify groups with an interest in the topic. But I think the link can be safely removed here too.--Milowent • 03:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• So, because you posted the links, I finally broken down and read what GamerGate is about. I regularly work on the WP:TOP25 and though i see these names/events mentioned a bit on twitter, none of this has come close to the sort of press attention a legitimately big news story gets. E.g., on the current WP:5000 (5000 most viewed wikipedia articles in the last week), GamerGate is #874, Zoe Quinn is #1204, Anita Sarkeesian is #4641. (That tropes game is unlisted.) To be sure, that's more popular than 99% of wikipedia's articles at this moment, but its ultimate a rather niche fight propagated by gamer drama communities. (Cf. 6-hour prison break of the perp of the Chardon High School shooting on Sept 11 got that article to #58.)--Milowent • 03:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• • I did not post links here to generate discussion HERE; I merely am informing task force members of issues they may find of interest. Montanabw 04:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, feel free to remove if its too off-topic. There's no way I can stand the "debate" with any of the folks on those articles.--Milowent • 04:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, decisions are made by those who show up. I figured that it made some sense to post links of interest to task force members. What they do with that info is entirely voluntary. Montanabw 05:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely not canvassing to mention AFDs of interest to the project. In fact, many projects have bots that do that automatically. --GRuban (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is of interest to the task force. The name of the task force is "gender gap", not "gender bias". This might be good to notify Wikiproject feminism, but the GGTF is for discussion of how women can get involved in Misplaced Pages more. I don't see how any of this can relate. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 14:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Those discussions are likely to be of interest to people here, so it's appropriate to post links. Thanks for letting us know about them, Montana. SlimVirgin 14:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, thanks, Montana. Interesting links. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Scope

The scope paragraph contains this statement:

Sue Gardner, former executive director of the Foundation, aimed to increase female enrollment to 25 percent by 2015, and to expand the number of female administrators to 25 percent and eventually 50 percent

The link supports the phrase " aimed to increase female enrollment to 25 percent by 2015" but I saw nothing at that site to support the admin comment. Did I miss it? Did she say it elsewhere, in which case another reference is needed. Does the number 50% refer to editors or admins or both? If a source can be found, I'm fine leaving it, but if not, the statement should be trimmed to her actual statement.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find the admin part either in that article, so I've removed it until someone finds a source. SlimVirgin 16:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that was quick. I note that Jimbo mentions that the initiatives have completely failed, and that the Foundation is doubling down. It would be useful to have some links to the new initiatives. I didn't see them on the page. My guess is that they are on Meta somewhere, and I'll go look, but if someone knows where they are, I think they should be included in the list of resources.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I do see a link to the meta page on Gender gap, but I'm not seeing anything that sounds like Jimbo's doubling down comment. --S Philbrick(Talk) 16:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I am completely deaf and so cannot check this but the original source for "doubling down", according to the history, was this. I'm not even sure what "doubling down" means: trying twice as hard? - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I checked the interview, he does say we're "doubling down our efforts." Yes, "doubling down" has come to mean something like twice as hard, in the corporate-speak of the last decade. It was originally a gambling term about doubling a bet on a good hand. It is now similar to saying someone will "redouble their efforts." It both cases is rarely means "double" of anything will actually be done.--Milowent • 12:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I think my comment yesterday got eaten by internet connection problems. Anyway, someone did stick that number in there after it had been removed from previous versions of descriptions of the BBC interview. I don't have the energy to find who or why. So as always we just have to be vigilant for things that get slipped in. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:43, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I see now that my wording was a bit unclear. I wasn't challenging whether doubling down belonged in the quote. It does. However if the WMF has actually "doubled down" (increased activity materially) I'd like to see the initiatives they are starting or strengthening. I looked around and didn't find anything that sounded like a new recent initiative. I may have missed it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anything either. I did remove the sentence for that reason, but it was restored and I don't want to keep removing it. But I think unless we make clear what it refers to, people are going to keep wondering. SlimVirgin 23:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I put it back up as a positive statement of intent. Wikimedia blog is the place for constant updates on various projects that impact editor recruitment and retention; the emphasis regarding women may not always be mentioned. Also, Wales has put out on his Talk Page a few proposals regarding a more civil atmosphere that would impact retention of female editors, even if not specifically gender gap oriented. I've mentioned some before. When get a chance will list some for those who don't want to check archives.

Since this is not an article, we can use Wikimedia sources regarding such projects that we think will help recruit and keep women editors. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Redaction of 17 odd comments?

Another actual discussion/dispute

This is another issue that may be of interest to this project: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:Vivian_James.jpg I see no need to also contact the Men's Rights pages, they are already there, Just FYI. Montanabw 23:11, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Game plan

Friends, Montana has given us food for thought in the list of links above. And we have 53 sign-ups, which is an achievement in itself. Which brings us to the need to marshal this task force in some kind of longer-term prioritised plan. Should it be expressed in a table? Or a sub-page comprising organisational sections?

May I suggest that we toss around an initial plan, produce a pilot table or whatever that allows people to sign up to sub-groups who might collaborate, or might operate as individual editors, to accomplish a task? Perhaps we should also consider a system of prioritisation and gradings, such as those used by many wikiprojects.

And of course we'll encounter the issue of editors' not having much discretionary time; but identifying modest, containable tasks could attract more lifters of all sorts of predilections—there's basic surveying and assessment of articles and topics (and the absence of these); there's copy-editing; there's stub creation; there's even interwiki liaison; plus plus.

Then we might be in a position to:

1. Notify on talkpages everyone who's signed up to the task force overleaf to visit and consider participation in more narrow-themed tasks.
2. Approach external people and organisations in the hope of gaining information from them, and if the starts lined up, even one or two to join us. (For example, the poor treatment of female mathematicians on en.WP has already been raised at an international council of academics—not that they'd be willing to come in and do the hard yards, I think, but their students might? There's also a website compendium of female mathematicians, "owned" by someone and not freely licensed, that holds a small glimmer of a chance of cooperation, I suppose.)
3. Organise for individuals or small groups of Wikimedians to apply for IEG or PEG grants (both of them schemes that thirst for impact in terms of diversity).

What do people think? Tony (talk) 01:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Tony, do you mean to create task forces off of the task force? I'm a bit confused. And by the way, it's "women" mathematicians if used in a generic sense, otherwise, it's "men-women" and "male-female" but never "men-female" OK?  ;-) Montanabw 04:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Montana, I wasn't aware of having counterposed female with men; thanks for clarifying the generic sense of "women". I wasn't advocating the creation of different task forces, but simply setting out some options for activities. Tony (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Tony, I think this is a great idea. We lack direction and coherence, so anything you can suggest to move us forward would be wonderful. SlimVirgin 13:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I prefer male-female because of the age-exclusionary nature of "men-women". In sports it is often a different matter, because things are categorised as men-women and/or boys-girls, and clearly in some areas only adults will be included (presidents of the US need to be over 35 for instance). All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC).

Generally male/female refers to sex and man/woman/boy/girl refers to gender identity. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Spin off the GGTF into a new WikiProject?

We've 54 members in the GGTF, and there is a proposal to create multiple, defined tasks for the GGTF. I think that this task force would work better as a new WikiProject, not under WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It used to be that the task force was about gender bias, but now it's been changed into a gender gap task force. This implies that the reason to get rid of the gender gap is to counter systemic bias, which may be a primary reason for getting rid of the gender gap, but I'm sure many people here have alternative reasons for trying to counter the gender gap. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 13:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm here because this is part of CSB. What is your alternative reason? --GRuban (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc: Misplaced Pages:Comment on content, not on the contributor. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 21:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The issue of the relation has been addressed here before: SlimVirgin’s question on “If MRM people are causing a problem here, this page is ipso facto covered by the sanctions” plus continuing discussion and

Let's hope not. Putting this under the soul-sucking dominion of WP:AE would be the surest way to kill broad participation. —Neotarf (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC) No, wait, MRM is under community sanctions, not ArbCom. —Neotarf (talk) 22:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Way back in June-July Arbitration sounded like a good thing to a couple editors, but since then it has become clear it's just one more nail in the coffin of this project. That's what I fear this move would be. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't see what connects arbitration, men's rights and calling the task force a wikiproject. SlimVirgin 22:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

This archived thread on a past Men's rights disruption, continuing disruptions and possible solutions discusses possible Arbitration as a solution (see last three posts especially). So if a men's rights person was proposing something, without technically invoking community sanctions by discussing men's rights, one might be a little concerned about the reasons. But if no one else thinks it's a possible problem, I'll relax. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

If User:Carolmooredc believes that I am somehow disrupting the project, I would suggest that she takes it up with me or creates a section on this talk page. In response to her saying that this move is the doings of an MRA trying to kill "this project" (italics mine), I would like to point to Misplaced Pages:Comment on the content, not the contributor again, as you have not provided any evidence that any perceived viewpoint of mine would somehow affect the content of this proposal or of any of my actions or comments related to the GGTF or any topic that may be covered under community sanctions. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 22:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's easier to just ask for someone's point of view and get a positive reply that it's not an issue than to feel one must go through a bunch of diffs and their full context, which can clarify certain comments. But never mind if you don't want to discuss it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind moving it to WikiProject Gender Gap. I started it under the systemic bias wikiproject only to give it a home (which is why it first had "bias" in the title, and is one of their "task forces"). But as it grows, a separate wikiproject might be more appropriate. SlimVirgin 14:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I have several concerns. Having one active project under Counter Systemic Violence helps support the others. Having a lone project might make it harder to find if it goes dormant and might make it easier to target as "against Misplaced Pages policies" if it becomes its own project and people keep harping on non-issues like "2 men to revert a woman" proposal, "political activity", "rabble rousers", etc. Just like a Stand Alone Wikiproject, this one can easily create a few more tabs and pages. At this point there isn't even a proposed need for separate pages, except for a resources page will I'll come back to in a few weeks (i.e., one less "kitchen sinky" than my big one). Then there is dealing with practical bureaucratic concerns on redirects, changing various links already in place throughout, etc. etc. So I would not be so quick to jump upon the idea. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm with @SlimVirgin:. Split this off. Systemic bias (not "violence") is a content issue; gender gap is a participation issue. This page is just a dramafest and useless to helping solve either issue. Montanabw 18:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That's an interesting distinction I hadn't considered. I have felt that the gender gap issue did not neatly belong in the systematic bias wiki project but for other reasons. The gender gap issue seems to me to be a big enough issue that it could stand alone as a project. Obviously that project could have links to other relevant projects such as the systematic bias project to help ensure that it doesn't become orphaned but I see value in establishing it as its own project.

Whether it is moved to a new project or remains here it would also be useful to think about the interplay between this page and the gender gap page on Meta. It isn't clear to me how these two interrelate. Conceptually, one would think that the meta-page would be the main page covering the issue from the perspective of all of Wikimedia while this specific page would concentrate on those aspects especially relevant to the English Misplaced Pages. However that does not seem to be the way they are organized, which is almost certainly due to the non-hierarchical nature of this enterprise and the fact that some contribute to one or the other while a few try to make sure there is some overlap in material.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll

• Perhaps we could have quick straw poll to see whether there's support.

• Support setting this up as a wikiproject. We have only these two pages at the moment, so we would only have to move the main page to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender gap and this to the talk page, plus move archives, and edit some templates and the intro. SlimVirgin 19:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Ambivalent - I see the concerns people raise about the scope being too broad. I'm leaning toward "keep GGTF to focus on user-related issues and allow other projects like WP:XX to deal with issues of article content and checking for WP:GNL. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• No in-principle objection. Tony (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support as originator of the idea. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 20:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Lightbreather (talk) 20:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Query: is there any value in using both locations? —Neotarf (talk) 21:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• If you mean retaining this task force page and setting up a wikiproject, I don't think there would be any value in that – not that I can think of. SlimVirgin 22:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree, although I would leave a redirect at a minimum, and possibly a placeholder page with a link.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per previous comments I feel safer in the "Countering systemic bias" nest. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

A multipronged strategy

This comment for some reason disappeared in the recent disruptions. I just wanted to pull it out and highlight it:

The WMF doesn't really know what to do about the gender gap. Me, I'm convinced that a multipronged strategy is needed for several parts of the "pipeline": attracting more women to press the save button for the first time (which Lila T believes is the hardest bit); promoting a culture of social support for newbies (well, all editors, but especially newbies); and organising concerted efforts by editors of both genders to improve our coverage of women and women's topics (sport, anyone; science, anyone?). Each of these strategies can be pursued without dependence on the others, and be either individually or socially supported.

Every time I come into contact with a newbie, I write something encouraging on their page. It bounces back very positively when they haven't already experienced brash rudeness. So it becomes self-therapy, if you like. Does everyone on this page encourage a newbie at least once a week? Some of them might be women. Tony (talk) 08:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to comment on the three points;

1) Attracting women to make the first edit

In the absence of the WMF being able to identify female users, and get any recommendations from actual women about what makes them want or not want to edit, the project is likely to get saddled with something like pink bunnies, not to mention having all the software disasters, like Visual Editor and Media Viewer blamed on potential female editors. Strategies should focus on facts, not on negative stereotypes of women. But where do you go if you want to find research that has already been done on the subject? What about an annotated bibliography, where someone who wants to research a particular question can find these resources grouped under "recruitment strategies", "best practices", or "blogs about editithons" (or whatever) subtitles.

2) Promoting a culture of social support for newbies

As several comments at recent ANIs have noted, there seems to be a project-wide viewpoint that women who do not want to be harassed should not identify themselves as women. So targeting newbies does make sense.

Most, if not all of the women who participate in this project have a primary area of interest, and divide their attention between making edits in their chosen topic area and trying to remove barriers to their participation. Yet there is no way to identify participants by editing area, so the science editors, literature editor, horse editors, etc. can find each other and distinguish themselves from the editors who signed up for the project in order to argue about whether women's participation is a real issue. Perhaps participants could be encouraged somewhere (on the sign-up page?) to indicate how at they might be able to assist other editors, or any areas where they would like assistance.

3) Improving coverage of women and women's topics

People sometimes find themselves with an extra 20 minutes or so that they can use to edit something. What about a place to add to a list of red-linked or stub articles that need work, along with an indication of their topic area. That way someone who likes to edit in science or medicine can quickly pick out something they like to edit and go to it directly.

—Neotarf (talk) 16:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for posting. My mind remains a bit too boggled right now to think about it all, but maybe this weekend. Hmmmm, what a fascinating looking meetup group that needs women; is it near Washington dc?? 16:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, no, I'm not necessarily saying that any group "needs women" (although they might consider a "take your daughter to pub" event). There are valid reasons for having an event that is all or mostly men or women, and sometimes it just ends up that way. But the above pictures would tend to show that pink bunnies are not necessary to get women to show up; the more effective bait these days seems to be WIFI and power strips. —Neotarf (talk) 17:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Does this mean you are watching this page again? Welcome back Two kinds of pork_Bacon 17:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

On point number two, I just found this, which might save some duplication of effort. —Neotarf (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry, Neotarf, but come on. Pick more generic photos if you must pick photos. The humor has been beaten out of all this already, and this lightheartedness with the photos is a bit too much like a shot below the belt. Drmies (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

As someone who's worked hard to encourage meetups of Misplaced Pages editors in the UK, I find it disgraceful that snide remarks are directed toward our meetings. There were other images that could have been chosen from that meetup showing a female editor was present. When we consider that only around 10% of Misplaced Pages editors are female, having a female editor among a dozen male editors is pretty representative of the underlying population, so what's your problem with our meetups? As it happens the sole female editor at that meetup became involved in Wikimedia UK activities following a session that Wikimedia UK held to encourage Girl Geeks to edit Misplaced Pages. Many of the participants at our meetups have gone on to train new editors at editahons in support of our annual Ada Lovelace Day or other initiatives to involve women in Misplaced Pages. I suggest that the members of this project may care to examine the events organised in the UK for examples of good practice in trying to bridge the gender gap. That would be far more productive than sniping from the sidelines at those who are actually out there doing something about the issue. --RexxS (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, pardon the heck out of me, but it looks like some of us are just not up on all the in-jokes that we're supposed to know. I met some of these users for the first time on this page something like a week ago, and to put it mildly, my first impression was not a good one. Seems odd though that someone would automatically assume that posting this photo is somehow "below the belt". I don't see any "snide remarks" or "sniping form the sidelines". —Neotarf (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Neotarf: That leads to main Wikimedia.org Gender Gap page which isn't too active. (And no more gentle allusions, please. They are far worse than harsh specifics.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it's a soft redirect to a meta page--and quite a good one. I don't know how to set up the inter-wiki links. —Neotarf (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You normally simply need to use the language as a prefix. In the case of MetaWiki, it's "meta", so meta:Gender gap gives you the link you want. Similarly "wmuk" is the prefix for the Wikimedia UK wiki as I used in my post above. HTH --RexxS (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I have now managed to use it in reverse, and post a link to this project on meta--but unfortunately not the talkpage. —Neotarf (talk) 23:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Some very good points by Neotarf. Tony (talk) 04:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Training admins

One thing I've considered suggesting to the Foundation is that it finance the training of a group of admins to deal with gender-gap issues. I've noticed that admins are often blind to the differences in the way men and women interact. This can lead to a sense of unfairness in the way women editors are treated, and women's issues handled.

I wonder whether we could apply for a grant to set up online training for, say, 20 admins. Perhaps the Ada Initiative would supply the training. Those admins could then be called upon to monitor and close gender-gap-related discussions, or discussions about particular women (whether editors or subjects), where gender is felt to be a factor. SlimVirgin 18:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Long overdue. We saw this principle work well in the closing of the move request for the Hillary Rodham Clinton article. There is no reason to believe it does not have merit elsewhere. And the issues are much too complex for a volunteer WikiProject to try to inform themselves and develop a program in an area where they have no qualifications. —Neotarf (talk) 18:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes! In addition to whatever "training" exists for admins, great. A permanent admin-related subpage on the topic would be good, too. And we can always write an essay right now. I still haven't even gotten near my first essay. I don't know enough to do that one, except provide suggestions.

I've heard a rumor that Wales said on his talk page he was interested in hiring mediators, but haven't researched to see if that's just a mis-remembering of proposals he do so. Some professional mediators to mediate and teach mediation to volunteers is a great idea, too. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:45, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• There are individual engagement grants that individuals or small groups can apply for; see meta:Grants:IEG. There are also project and event grants; see meta:Grants:PEG. I can't see the difference at the moment.

  We would have to reach out to people in the Foundation and elsewhere who have discussed similar issues (e.g. the editor-retention team). Approach the Ada Initiative to see whether they could provide training, what it would cost, whether it could be done online (via Skype, for example, which would make it a lot cheaper). Put together a proposal and discuss with experienced Wikipedians how to apply. It would be a fair bit of work. SlimVirgin 18:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Like a lot of projects, if somebody gets the ball rolling, others will help push it along Go for it! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is a great idea. I'd be willing to assist with the grant application or interfacing with the Ada Initiative. I think we have a couple of GGTF members who have experience with the IEG process. If we could demonstrate that this is more than a one-off training, we'd be in a better position grant-wise. We could have a page for admins who can close gender-related discussions a la Misplaced Pages:Admins willing to make difficult blocks or even incorporate a training module into admin school. gobonobo 20:17, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Gobonobo, that's exactly what I had in mind, that anyone could request of a particular discussion that it be closed by one of the trained admins, or could request their assistance at any point. My thinking was to suggest 20 to start with, but an on-going thing would be much better. If you can put us in touch with the Ada Initiative, that would be great. I was wondering whether they could be willing to offer training, and even help with the initial selection of admins (devise an interview or questionnaire to establish who would benefit most, etc). Also, see the page posted in the section below. There is more information there about grants. What should our first step be? SlimVirgin 22:02, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oh, I love this idea! If you think folks would need to be paid to help organize a training like this, an IEG might be the right way to fund (7 more days to submit a proposal for this round). If you think you'll just need funding for people's travel, etc, a PEG is more likely the right way to fund. We can help you point in one direction or another, depending on your timing and needs. And yes, WMF is thinking about running a grantmaking campaign in March to focus on funding new ideas specifically focused on the gender gap, so if you wanted more time to develop this idea into a grant proposal, we could think about it as part of the "Inspire campaign." Too many options, I know, but happy to help you narrow things down as you decide 1) what parts you'd actually need funding for and 2) when you'd realistically want to run this training. I'm sending Valerie of Ada Initiative the link to this discussion now, too, to loop her in. Any interest in starting to draft something in the IdeaLab meanwhile, which could potentially move into either sort of grant? Cheers! Siko (WMF) (talk) 22:17, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Siko, thank you for posting. It's difficult to know how to proceed. The funding I had in mind would be primarily for the Ada Initiative trainers, and for the admins to travel to the training if it could not be done online (I assume it could be done online; travel would make it expensive, though face-to-face training sessions would be very helpful). Perhaps the first step is to write up something for the IdeaLab (I love your Inspire campaign, by the way – thank you!). I assume it's okay to post a very rough draft on the IdeaLab for now? SlimVirgin 22:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin, yes, please - that's exactly what IdeaLab is for :) That way we can all join in and help develop further, and it will give you something to point Ada folks to as well. Glad you think the Inspire campaign is worth doing too! Looking forward to more happening there soon. Siko (WMF) (talk) 22:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Siko, thank you, this is great. I'll start working on something, and others can join in and refine it. I'll ping people once I have something on the IdeaLab (and if someone else wants to start and beats me to it, that's fine too). SlimVirgin 22:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Okay, I've posted something at Grants:IdeaLab/Gender-gap admin training. SlimVirgin 23:29, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• @SlimVirgin: Do you foresee (or hope for) the community to empower the trained admins in a particular manner? That is, it's wonderful to have people trained to handle these issues, but that doesn't help much if their RfC closes (for example) are reverted, or their ANI judgments ignored, by other editors or admins who think these actions shouldn't involve any consideration of participant gender or gender issues. The community is generally resistant to adding more levels of "power", and I would expect that to emphatically be the case when the "power" is in regard to gender issues, which are often treated as "those women, who just can't take the heat and want us to cater to them". A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Fluffernutter, I hadn't thought of admins with extra powers. I was hoping we could rely on the cooperation of other admins, so that, if an editor requests that a discussion be moderated and closed by a trained admin, others would agree to step back. They might want to be accepted onto the training programme themselves in future, so that would be an added incentive.

  That may sound a little too hopeful, but most discussion closures are respected, so if there were problems, it would only be in a handful of cases. I think if the training programme took off and people saw it was producing something good, cooperation would increase. SlimVirgin 02:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• This may actually be a chance to rejuvenate adminship. The admin corps is quite frankly in shambles. Admins have a reputation for bullying, and at this point there are probably more plans to reform the process than there are admins. Long-established admins are quitting, and I hear that for the first time, there were no new RFAs in either August and September. Perhaps it's time to go for quality, and start putting resources into developing the admins we already have. There is currently no criteria for adminship, other than a popularity contest. This would give admins and perhaps even potential admins a chance for some training credentials and certificates. Long-term, maybe it would be possible to have some dispute-resolution modules developed and added to the admin "tool" kit, but at this point gender is a priority with the foundation and this is a good enough place to start, funding-wise. —Neotarf (talk) 03:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• this is an excellent suggestion. However instead of direct training, or in addition to, a series of recorded videos that would be available to everyone would give more bang for the buck. Prospective admins can use this "certification" to bolster their chances at RfA. Two kinds of pork_Bacon 04:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

  I'd say 20 is almost too many for a physical meetup for training (around 15 seems to be a good number). For online meetups, one is playing with group audio and/or video hangouts, which may have different optimal numbers (possibly smaller). May I suggest that the selection criteria be relaxed to include those who might intend applying for adminship at some stage in the future? You might control the numbers gently by offering self-selection criteria for both groups. More generally, it's hard to proceed far without knowing more from the Ada Initiative. Tony (talk) 05:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, this could fall into super vote territory, and paying people to help "fix" Misplaced Pages could draw the ire of those who hated the foundation's handling of MV/VE/Flow. How can you assure the community that the training won't just lead them to super vote and that this isn't just another WMF grab for power? Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 12:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there anyone who does *not* hate Media Viewer and Virtual Editor? If the WMF wants to supervote the community, they will just do it, with or without some training packet. By the way, Tony and I have both done a bit through the Signpost to publicize this controversy. —Neotarf (talk) 13:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've posted the proposal on the IdeaLab as what the page calls the "idea creator," but I see this as a gender gap task force project. If the people who've signed up as endorsers prefer to be participants, that would be wonderful. This is something that needs teamwork.

Tony, there's no reason it couldn't be extended to all experienced editors who want to apply. I've added that to the IdeaLab page. SlimVirgin 15:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment/suggestion: Over the years, I have attended a few seminars where we identify our Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator and use that as a segue to talk about different ways of interacting. The first one I attended was quite insightful, making it clear to me that different people interact in different ways. I'll throw out as a suggestion that teaching admins about this issue might be a way of covering useful material, without making the arguably over-simplification that men and women communicate differently. I prefer to think that different people communicate differently, and it is useful to understand these differences. If we found some MB experts, I bet the talk pages would be rich in material to illustrate various ways of communicating. While I try to be aware of these differences, it is easy to lapse into my own preferred style; I would find it helpful to learn how to watch for different approaches, so that I could tailor my responses accordingly.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi, I agree that interaction styles don't split neatly into male and female, and I think the problems we see in the way discussions are handled discourage a lot of men too. But the focus of this task force is the gender gap, so the proposal is to tailor the training to that issue to keep things simple. SlimVirgin 16:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Myers-Briggs is useful. About 25 years ago some libertarians did it of a couple hundred libertarians, including may 40 women; something like 80 percent of them were ENTJs. Which I am too. They are only 1-3% of females (and you have to be to put up with some of those guys). I wonder if there would be a significant number of any one of the 16 personalities among either women editors or admins. Which might be a good segway to my earlier comment below. (Since I can't remember now what the heck the relevance was.)

Below I noted that the Admin how-2-guide seemed more concerned about abused admins that abused editors. However, that is part of our problem. Editors willing to deal with the most abusive editors will get abused back; and the tendency has been for only hard noses to give blocks to abusers and stick it out as Admins. And hard noses aren't the kind likely to want to be sensitive to women's issues on ANI. Another reason to get more of the good guys in there learning about the issues so they can teach by example to the hard noses in the field. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

In person training

It's the WMF's money and they can do what they want, but I'm afraid many here would view this as another WMF junket giveaway. Tens of thousands of dollars for travel and lodging expenses are going to raise eyebrows. Businesses and universities have been using technology for remote learning quite successfully for many years now. There is no reason this training shouldn't be done frugally. Two kinds of pork_Bacon 14:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's not forget existing resources on Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia that can be tweaked or used:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_how-to_guide exists but the only abusive editors it seems concerned with are the ones who abuse admins who've given blocks or whatever. Maybe that needs and "abuse of editors" section which has one or two sentences on women's issues.
• Misplaced Pages:Advice_for_new_administrators could probably more easily have that info inserted.
• Misplaced Pages:New_admin perhaps this one too
• Are some good admin-related essays?
• Wikimedia.org help videos exist. Have a small group trained in administration in general, and another one dealing with systemic bias (including gender gap). :Have smaller google hangouts and video chats on these topics.
  

What others? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! I just about to ask what there was currently. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 21:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question Can anyone recommend any online sources that provide this type of advice (differences in the way men and women interact) that regular editors (such as myself) can read? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I collected a bunch of stuff at Draft Resources page which frankly I haven't studied much yet. (Mostly things listed at Gender Gap email list, things I ran into in my travels around linked articles.) A comprehensive search on it would be good - and that is what we're supposed to be good at, eh? See what you find there and if you find good stuff that needs to be added there, feel free to do so in the appropriate section. 03:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• How long a training session were you considering? Is it something that could be run at Wikimania? Alternatively could this be run in multiple centres, I work for Wikimedia UK and we could easily supply a room, wifi and coffee if someone was offering to run a session in London (lots of admins live in or near London, and not just admins on this wiki). If anyone fancies running a session in London please drop me an email, this could work as one of our wiki Wednesday events. ϢereSpielChequers 05:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hi WereSpielChequers, the idea is in the early stages, and I'm currently doing lots of reading to try to put something together, but yes, holding workshops at Wikimania and Wikimedia UK would be a great idea, as would filming training sessions so that everyone could learn from them. SlimVirgin 17:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've checked with one of my colleagues who has the diversity brief for WMUK. We are definitely interested in doing something in London. ϢereSpielChequers 18:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• That's great. The Ada Initiative has said they are interested in this in principle, but they're in the middle of a fundraiser. I'll keep you posted. SlimVirgin 18:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what sort of training you were envisaging, so suggestions as to what we should cover would be welcome, but if you were thinking of an opportunity for experienced editors to talk to existing admins then yes we could arrange that. An evening session in London for 6-10 people would cost very little to convene, and a geonotice would be a good way to promote it. ϢereSpielChequers 01:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Probable lack of current admin/community support

I'm sure that for at least one situation if this proposal gets implemented, some people might disagree with the interpreted outcome by a specially trained admin, so what would happen if there was a consensus against these "gender gap trained" admins? Also, could a gender gap admin overturn a regular closer? Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 12:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you are reading far too much into this discussion of training of Admins. Whether or not the Foundation takes something like this on, local groups can always have workshops and trainings of editors, wikidata people, and even admins. Latter workshops/discussions can review the many different functions that admins can take on, most of them not even relevant to behavior, and discuss as well how to deal with various behavior issues, including the more obvious incidents of racial/sexual/gender/sex orientation/etc. bigotry. (And know when people are taking some innocuous thing and blowing it out of proportion to make some ridiculous trumped up case. I've certainly had that happen to me enough that I'd like to see admins who know how to read diffs and thus know the difference!) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

In my view, the goal should not be to produce admins with special privileges to evaluate consensus. The objective ought to be to increase awareness of cultural diversity of all sorts by the editing community, as well as the subset of editors with administrative privileges. This should lead to better informed discussions on points of contention. isaacl (talk) 21:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Foundation gender-gap initiatives

Gender gap strategy, posted by Siko (WMF) and AWang (WMF). SlimVirgin 21:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Google efforts.

Interesting article about Google's attempts at minimising systemic bias. __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Interesting article about their diversity-training – thanks for posting it. Just making people aware that they have these biases, without realizing it, can make such a huge difference: "Dr. Welle goes on to explain that some of the most damaging bias is unconscious; people do the worst stuff without meaning to, or even recognizing that they’re being influenced by their preferences." SlimVirgin 20:02, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of admins

I haven't nominated anyone for a while, but my last five nominations were all successful, and as far as I'm concerned those of my nominees who have got through RFA have made good admins. I am hoping to nominate more candidates at RFA, if anyone here is interested in running and would like my nomination then please read my criteria, and if that doesn't put you off then please email me. ϢereSpielChequers 05:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikimania 2014

A positive sign as far as narrowing the GG.

Gender Balance by registration

64% Male

36% Female

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC).

That's excellent news. Thanks for letting us know, Rich. SlimVirgin 00:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

HeForShe

Alex Wang just sent the gender gap mailing list the video of Emma Watson's speech to the United Nations, introducing their HeForShe campaign. It's worth sharing here too. Any thoughts about how we could use this idea on Misplaced Pages? SlimVirgin 00:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Love these celebrity photos with the hashtags at Huffington Post. Looks much more up to date than the Robin Morgan-era "Mind the gap" symbol. Are there any photogenic Wikipedians? —Neotarf (talk) 05:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

English-language translation now posted of Charting diversity, a collaborative effort of the German chapter and Beuth University. It's a little academic in its angle, particularly at the start (that's the German preference); and there's no executive summary up-front, which is a pity. But well done. The shocking stats for participation and readership are on p. 8, to add context to the slither of good news Rich posted above. 3.2 Reasons for low female participation in Misplaced Pages is interesting. They conclude: "The overall picture emerging from the analysis of surveys, reports, and interviews with individual Wikipedians is complex," which doesn't really bring us closer to designing strategic action.

I think a little of this report could be referred to in a funding application such as Slim is planning. And let's not forget the IEG grant to Amanda Menking and David McDonald (a narrative approach to gaining insights into gender on WMF sites), which should be starting to produce data/findings. McDonald points out that we don't know why WP is so much worse for female participation than other interactive social sites. Tony (talk) 10:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If anyone wants a laugh

Well I thought it was funny anyway - User talk:Eric Corbett#The god-king has spoken (also check out the sign at the top of the page). --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wales page definitely a better place to bring up ideas about a BBC style monitoring system than here. Misplaced Pages:Role of Jimmy Wales notes that he is an Admin so has the same powers to block or indefinitely ban users as other admins. He's only use it once. What self-control!! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Wales made other pro-civility statements today and yet another editor stated that, in effect, "big content producers have ra right to be as uncivil as they like" and those who aren't big content providers have no right to complain. In response I put up a home-made "Wikibreak" box on my user page. It's a polite way of saying "I'm too aggravated and disgusted to edit much any more." Creating perhaps more positive boxes is an option for all of us. Maybe I'll make it more positive tomorrow. (Like making one for hiring trained mediators.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure why this section was archived when there's a 20 day automatic archive bot on this talk page, but I've reinstated it. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 06:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

And I unhatted it. Maybe it's not the most enlightening discussion we've seen here, but it is information regarding civility issues and what administrator Jimmy Wales and/or the Foundation could do about them if they chose; do not dismiss project concerns as "dramafest". Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:27, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

PS: Not the first time we've linked to user pages that individuals found relevant, be it Wales, mine or others. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, if linking to user talk pages never ok do tell and archive this thing. Things that used to seem like no nos have become yes yeses of late. Please discuss before taking action. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:12, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that Wales is out of touch with his own project; he blocked Bishonen, of all people! He is too busy with other things to really stay on top of things here and has a tendency to shoot from the hip. He certainly is not going to be the God-king to solve gender agp issues, remember, this is the guy who started off doing softcore porn sites... Montanabw 00:20, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Gender gap on Twitter

There are two Misplaced Pages Gender Gap accounts on Twitter that people might want to follow:

• GenderGapOnWikipedia @SaidOnWP
• WikiWomen's Collab @WikiWomen

There's also The Ada Initiative @adainitiative.

SlimVirgin 18:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, I thought SaidOnWP might be a plant to trap us, but seeing recent quotes, looks like it's for real. I'll still just bookmark it and peek from time to time. The other one seems a good way to get out positive info about positive efforts. Ada Initiative's "F-Word" - Feminism graphic - is pretty ironic in light of various goings on lately. "What the... Feminism! is going on!"??? Well, one doesn't have to adopt a label to do the right thing, that's for sure. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've been following @SaidOnWP and have seen some interesting quotes with diffs; worth following. Also @adainitiative is a gem; for transparency, I'm an AdaCamper. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Mind the Gap

So, the symbol and the phrase "Mind the Gap" - is it known outside the UK? Obviously it means something to people who travel by rail in the UK, but how about people in, say, New Zealand, do they understand it? mMybe the phrase is used worldwide, I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.183.53 (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It's used outside the UK, and we even have an article on it (of course!): Mind the gap. SlimVirgin 02:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

While I suspect most subway users are familiar with the phrase, I'm probably not the only person who was (or will be) reminded of the Thigh gap, which considering the subject matter and some of the sensitivities involved is perhaps a reason to not use it. I was going to address this a few weeks ago, but considering the toxic enviornment thought better of it. Not that I mind a double entendre every now and then, but this isn't a good place for such right now.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 03:29, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

That use is a neologism, and should not be used to run off an older expression. Montanabw 06:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I did not know what a "thigh gap" is until now. I, personally, have not heard of it. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 12:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The use of "mind the gap" at The Chive to refer to thigh gaps is just community lingo, like "sharp knees" is at Fark. There is no reason it can't be used by GGTF to refer to the gender gap.--Milowent • 15:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it is clever.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It was in the news a few years ago due to some Victoria Secret ad campaign, which raised in the public sphere some questions of body issues. Should someone mention it in the future, you will know the reason why I suppose. Two kinds of pork_Bacon 15:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought you were talking about a gap between the train and platform but evidently you're talking about the gap between a guy's thighs when he doesn't have much down there. I actually would like CLOSE THE GAP better myself. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard of it being used towards men in that fashion before, but you travel in different circles it seems. The thigh gap meme is nothing to sneeze at; Young women and girls are subjected to enough body issue stereotypes already. Hopefully the women leave the moronic spacers in the ears fad tto the men. I too would prefer "Close the gap", if only for the reason that is one less kitschy UK meme being used that people seem to be so fond of. Two kinds of pork_Bacon 18:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Close the gap is a phrase used in Australia for a campaign to reduce the gap in statistics of age at death, child mortality, etc between white and indigenous Australians. AnonNep (talk) 18:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Narrow, Mend and my favorite, Bridge would work well too,Two kinds of pork_Bacon 19:00, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I like Mind the Gap just fine. For those who also associate it with a caution, that's fine, too. I think there's a certain risk to Misplaced Pages if it doesn't mind the (gender) gap. Lightbreather (talk) 01:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"Mind the Gap". The Gap is something to be AVOIDED, not CLOSED. Just a thought. 141.6.11.21 (talk) 07:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

We can't avoid it. Perhaps "mind the gap" is good for the outward facing messages. For the project "dive into the gap" might be better. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC).

Fall 2014 Art+Feminism IEG & PEG Grants Notification

Hello All, the Art+Feminism Edit-a-thon organizers have prepared an IEG grant, and a PEG grant this week for the fall Wikimedia Foundation grant scholarships. These grants will fund several NYC training sessions, another major international Edit-a-thon, and the creation of infrastructure to support this year, and years going forward. The project is seeking community comment / discussion and endorsement signatures (section at the bottom of the page) to help complete the grant process. We encourage you to take a look at these grants, and offer your feedback and/or your endorsement signature if you feel the project worthy. On behalf of the other organizers. --Theredproject (talk) 01:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Women using technology to stop harassment

"How young women joined forces against misogynistic YouTuber Sam Pepper": After Pepper posted a video of himself approaching young women on the street and touching them on the butt, YouTuber Laci Green wrote him an open letter signed by top vloggers in the industry that was reblogged more than 100,000 times:

Please stop violating women and making them uncomfortable on the street for views. Please stop physically restraining them and pressuring them to be sexual when they are uncomfortable....These videos encourage millions of young men and women to see this violation as a normal way to interact with women. 1 in 6 young women (real life ones, just like the ones in your video) are sexually assaulted, and sadly, videos like these will only further increase those numbers.

Pepper has been dropped by his YouTube network and is longer welcome at fan conferences. Says one of his former collaborators, "A sexual predator isn't a good look." The Sam Pepper article is currently a redirect to List of Big Brother 11 housemates (UK)#Sam and has been indefinitely protected from editing by non-admins since August 2013. —Neotarf (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

The question is if he's notable enough to warrant his own article. If you know of enough quality sources I can see a case being made, but I can also see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP being tossed in your path as well. It seems the incident is more notable than the individual in this case. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with EvergreenFir's comment. To be sure, someone could create a new article at something like Sam Pepper controversy or Sam Pepper (YouTube), but it will need to be a strong article for the inevitable AfD drama. Something similar happened at 2013 Vidcon that was also disgusting , if there are sources to support an article on female harassment via video bloggers.--Milowent • 12:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
• He's not. He clearly falls under WP:BIO1E. If someone creates it, ping me and I'll lead an AfD charge. It could be one of many examples and listed in a general article about cyber-harassment of women. Montanabw 19:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this isn't an encyclopedia of douchebags.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 21:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)