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| *'''Delete''': This is of no real value to English-speaking readers. Most importantly, there is no need for generic articles "Influence of France on English culture" (to give an example closer to (my) home), because such influence is general, all-pervasive, and obvious. In this specific case, of course, both Korea and Japan went through many centuries under the influence of Chinese civilisation, and Korea is geographically in the middle, so obviously it is possible to make a hodge-podge list of "connections", but this does not an encyclopaedia article make. ] (]) 05:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC) | *'''Delete''': This is of no real value to English-speaking readers. Most importantly, there is no need for generic articles "Influence of France on English culture" (to give an example closer to (my) home), because such influence is general, all-pervasive, and obvious. In this specific case, of course, both Korea and Japan went through many centuries under the influence of Chinese civilisation, and Korea is geographically in the middle, so obviously it is possible to make a hodge-podge list of "connections", but this does not an encyclopaedia article make. ] (]) 05:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep''' There's more than enough scholarship on this subject to make an article. Even the Kyoto Cultural Museum noted that "In seeking the source of Japan’s ancient culture many will look to China, but the quest will finally lead to Korea, where China’s advanced culture was accepted and assimilated. In actuality, the people who crossed the sea were the people of the Korea Peninsula and their culture was the Korean culture." What is very glaring about the nominator's source criticism is that he seems to admit that he's hasn't actually read the scholarship he is criticizing. He writes at length about why sources like Covell, Mitchell, and Farris should not be included in the article, but doesn't acknowledge he has ever actually read the books. This is just quibbling with sources and not a legitimate reason to delete the article. Farris' book, for instance, notes that "Together South Korean and Japanese archaeologists have been able to show that from the late fourth through the late seventh centuries Korean-borne continental ideas, technologies, and materials streamed into the archipelago. Influence from the peninsula hit peaks in the mid-fifth, mid-sixth, and late seventh centuries and played a crucial role in population growth, economic and cultural development, and the rise of a centralized Yamato state." The nominator says that "there is no Chinese influence on Japanese culture and there never will be, because Chinese nationalists are apparently not insecure enough that they need to go onto English Misplaced Pages and denigrate another country's culture". Statements like this show how wrong-headed an attempt to delete this article would be. First of all, someone should write an article about Chinese influence on Japanese culture because that is also an important subject, but secondly, there is no historian today who doesn't acknowledge the massive influence people from the Korean peninsula had on Japan and that has nothing to do with appeasing the so-called "insecurities" of the Korean people. William Wayne Farris, the Kyoto Cultural Museum, and all the other scholars who have written extensively on this subject are of course not inspired by Korean nationalism, they're just acknowledging the fact that Korea has played a tremendous role in shaping Japanese politics, culture, and society, something definitely noteworthy enough to have a Misplaced Pages article. | |||
Revision as of 06:35, 6 October 2014
Korean influence on Japanese culture
- Korean influence on Japanese culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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As already thoroughly demonstrated on the talk page, the article is a WP:POVFORK of a whole bunch of better articles on Japanese culture that may or may not mention hypothetical Korean connections for the topics mentioned. It has stitched together a bunch of sources that either (1) present Korean connection as one (the less likely?) of several possible theories of a cultural artifact's origins, (2) are written by Korean nationalists with no training in Japanese culture, or (3) don't mention "Korean influence" at all, but refer to a Japanese-born and Japanese-raised originator, whose remote ancestors might have immigrated from the Korean Peninsula. The topics Chinese influence on Japanese culture, European influence on Japanese culture and United States influence on Japanese culture are almost certainly more notable, but we don't have articles on those topics -- or, for that matter, any other articles with titles in the form "<Country Y> influence on the culture of <Country X>" -- because such articles by definition would violate WP:WEIGHT, WP:SYNTH, WP:NPOV and more. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:45, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 October 4. —cyberbot I Online 08:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep We have other articles of this sort and examples include Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures, European influence in Afghanistan, Spanish influence on Filipino culture, Islamic influences on Western art. In this case, there's an entire book on the topic and so the topic is notable. The worst case would be merger to another page such as History of Japan–Korea relations and so there's no case for deletion. Andrew (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- None of those articles are comparable, since they are not in the form "<Modern nation-state that didn't exist yet during the relevant time period> influence on the culture of <Other modern nation-state that didn't exist yet during the relevant time period>". The more accurate name for 90% of this material would be "Baekje influence on late-Yayoi culture". Many of your examples don't include the relevant word "culture", as well, and please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. As to the book: have you read it? It's author has no visible credentials in Japanese studies, the publisher is a specialist in English-language travel guides on South Korea, the book almost certainly fails WP:RS, and a lot of it is downright offensive to boot. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Plus, books with "hidden history" in their subtitle tend to be WP:FRINGE, and WP:SPAs who cite such books -- including the article's creator and several later contributors -- tend to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- That source seems fine and, in any case, is not the only one out there. I browse a little and soon find this — an account of the influence of the Paekche of Korea on Japan. This work is published by a university press and so demonstrates and further confirms the notability and the scholarly nature of the topic. Our corresponding article references the page in question in its section Baekje#Relations_with_Japan, giving it as a main article. This demonstrates that the page in question is interwoven with our other content and is not some fringe fork as you seem to suppose. As for righting great wrongs, you seem to be the one on a mission here as your sandbox indicates you've been grinding this axe for months now. Andrew (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment The issue is not whether any of the content on this page is true, sourced, or whatever. It's about balance: the "topic" is notionally as vast as my example below of France and England, and there is thus no coherence between bits about the Baekje arts and bits about writers whose ancestors were or might have been from Korea, and even less relevance of the bit about Jindai moji. Never mind "influence", why not have an article of "American superiority over the British" -- it could list all sorts of things (wasn't there a yacht race with rather one-side results), a few battles, and everything could be true, referenced, and even in native level English. But it would not be a good article. Imaginatorium (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- @user:Andrew Davidson: I'm sorry, but where did Jinwung Kim (the author of the second book you cite) gain his knowledge of Japanese history? I ask, because the paragraph you link to appears to be loaded with errors: (1) if any legit scholars think the Soga clan were immigrants from Baekje, I have yet to read their work (WP:FRINGE) -- the Soga were in fact active in Japan long before the great Baekje immigration of 660; (2) "Soga Noumako" is not a possible name-reconstruction -- his given name was "Umako"; (3) no one says "Asuka-ji"; (4) what's with the scare quotes around "Emperor" Kanmu? Also, the equation of the extinct Baekje civilization (whose educated populace by and fled to Japan) with modern-day Korea is extremely problematic, since they had their own (likely unrelated) language, etc. It seems pretty obvious that this is a WP:TERTIARY source reliant on other, better sources that do not support your claims.
- Also, nice personal attack on my sandbox speculation about the obvious sockpuppetry on the part of Korean-nationalist SPAs (sockpuppetry that has been observed by others such as User:Canterbury Tail on ANI last Christmas Eve). I'm just trying to analyze as much of the information as is available to me to work through what's clearky a massive violation of WP:SOCK that has been going on for years. How about instead of rooting around in my user space you actually read the commentary I provided on the article's talk page clearly demonstrating the disastrous abuse of sources in the article.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- No preference, but Japanese culture might be a better location for some of this. The current article has grammar issues throughout, and does seem to have a severe slant toward presenting Korean culture as influencing practically everything in Japan without presenting dissenting academic opinions and research. If this article is not deleted, it will definitely need a serious overhaul, and shepherding from editors willing to work together and put any nationalism aside in that effort. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:37, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: This is of no real value to English-speaking readers. Most importantly, there is no need for generic articles "Influence of France on English culture" (to give an example closer to (my) home), because such influence is general, all-pervasive, and obvious. In this specific case, of course, both Korea and Japan went through many centuries under the influence of Chinese civilisation, and Korea is geographically in the middle, so obviously it is possible to make a hodge-podge list of "connections", but this does not an encyclopaedia article make. Imaginatorium (talk) 05:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Keep There's more than enough scholarship on this subject to make an article. Even the Kyoto Cultural Museum noted that "In seeking the source of Japan’s ancient culture many will look to China, but the quest will finally lead to Korea, where China’s advanced culture was accepted and assimilated. In actuality, the people who crossed the sea were the people of the Korea Peninsula and their culture was the Korean culture." What is very glaring about the nominator's source criticism is that he seems to admit that he's hasn't actually read the scholarship he is criticizing. He writes at length about why sources like Covell, Mitchell, and Farris should not be included in the article, but doesn't acknowledge he has ever actually read the books. This is just quibbling with sources and not a legitimate reason to delete the article. Farris' book, for instance, notes that "Together South Korean and Japanese archaeologists have been able to show that from the late fourth through the late seventh centuries Korean-borne continental ideas, technologies, and materials streamed into the archipelago. Influence from the peninsula hit peaks in the mid-fifth, mid-sixth, and late seventh centuries and played a crucial role in population growth, economic and cultural development, and the rise of a centralized Yamato state." The nominator says that "there is no Chinese influence on Japanese culture and there never will be, because Chinese nationalists are apparently not insecure enough that they need to go onto English Misplaced Pages and denigrate another country's culture". Statements like this show how wrong-headed an attempt to delete this article would be. First of all, someone should write an article about Chinese influence on Japanese culture because that is also an important subject, but secondly, there is no historian today who doesn't acknowledge the massive influence people from the Korean peninsula had on Japan and that has nothing to do with appeasing the so-called "insecurities" of the Korean people. William Wayne Farris, the Kyoto Cultural Museum, and all the other scholars who have written extensively on this subject are of course not inspired by Korean nationalism, they're just acknowledging the fact that Korea has played a tremendous role in shaping Japanese politics, culture, and society, something definitely noteworthy enough to have a Misplaced Pages article.