Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:14, 7 October 2014

This user may sometimes share an IP address with Halo Jerk1.

Welcome to my talk page. I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2007. If you want to know more about me, see my user page. My work, like a lot of others, has been complimented and criticized. And in March 2012, I was even blocked. See the block cases. And it's during that first block case that I learned a lot about WP:Assume good faith and who you can count on to be there for you; that experience has made me more acrimonious towards Misplaced Pages, and this feeling was intensified with my second block case (again, refer to the block cases link). Still, I believe that it's best that I help this site, seeing as many people come here for information (Misplaced Pages is almost always ranking highest in search engines, and that type of thing is always going to bring in a lot of readers) and a lot of those people trust what they read here. So it's my job to make sure that any topic I am heavily editing is as accurate as possible.

Especially see User:Flyer22#Main type of editing style for why what you consider neutral, or what you consider needed with regard to images, likely differs from my view; don't know about you, but I'm following Misplaced Pages policies and/or guidelines in that regard. Any questions, compliments or criticism of my Misplaced Pages work, feel free to leave me a message here on my talk page or email me. If you leave me a message here, I will usually reply here.

Archive

• Archive 1 (from May 8, 2007 - June 20, 2007)
• Archive 2 (from June 24, 2007 - November 3, 2007
• Archive 3 (from December 20, 2007 - November 4, 2008)
• Archive 4 (from November 10, 2008 - June 6, 2009)
• Archive 5 (from June 10, 2009 - October 9, 2009)
• Archive 6 (from October 9, 2009 - March/April 2010)
• Archive 7 (from April 2, 2010 - January 20, 2011)
• Archive 8 (from January 21, 2011 - July 27, 2011)
• Archive 9 (from July 27, 2011 - March 20, 2012 )
• Archive 10/block cases (from March 21, 2012 - July 24, 2012, for block case 1; December 12, 2012 - December 19, 2012, and to December 24 concerning extra comments, for block case 2; 2014 for block case 3)
• Archive 10 in general (April 25, 2012- August 31, 2012)
• Archive 11 (September 4, 2012 - April 3, 2013)
• Archive 12 (April 5, 2013 - September 10, 2013)
• Archive 13 (September 14, 2013 - December 29, 2013)
• Archive 14 (December 30, 2013 - May 5, 2014)
• Archive 15 (May 6, 2014 - )
• Archive 16 (May 29, 2014 - September 21, 2014)

I do hope you'll read this...

Leaving over the loss of a flag would just be silly. Let's take what's happened at AN/I as a learning experience and look at the overall picture. Very few of your 149,000+ edits required the use of that flag. Rollback doesn't define you as an editor - your edits do, and those are much much more important. Please reconsider? Dusti 02:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Sad to see you go...

For what it's worth I think that incident could not have been handled more poorly and am 100% in favor of you receiving your flag back if you should decide to return. —Frosty ☃ 04:57, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sadly, it's just another example of admin overreach. Flyer22 did not misuse the rollback tool, but ProtonK removed it anyway. What did s/he think would happen when a provocative action like that is taken? There was no reason to remove the tool, and I can completely understand Flyer22's frustration (and even retirement) with the fact that another editor was allowed to simply remove the tool without any real evidence of misuse. Until admins realize that they're just regular editors with a few extra buttons, and not Team Misplaced Pages Project Police, good editors will continue to leave the project. LHM 03:15, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It was a mistake but did look like a misuse from the reaction. There was no overreach here. Both parries did what they thought was right.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

    There was plenty of admin overreach in this circumstance, as well as many others. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish on this page. LHM 14:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Message

Regardless of your ultimate decision, I wanted to let you know you are one of the best editors I've encountered here. You've always been kind to me, mentoring me as I learned, and an invaluable resource for all sexuality-related pages. I do hope you return, but if not, I wish you all the best. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I watch several sexuality-related pages for vandalism and I have seen your valuable edits to them, which doubtless greatly increased their quality. I almost always learn something new when I see your edits. I hope that you eventually return. Best wishes, BethNaught (talk) 11:08, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I am sad to see you leave. You are one of the most valuable people on this project. With the many amazing things you have done for wikipedia. To only get a double slap in the face of two administrators. For the reason I do not like your style and attitude with me. So I will slap you. Why? Because I can. Instead of thinking hey this an editor with over 150k edits, 7 years of experience, and held in high regard by the community. maybe we should talk this through a bit more and in the end maybe even agree to disagree. I might leave as well if admins can do this without consequences. NathanWubs (talk) 13:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Very sad to see you go. I wish I arrived in time to comment in the AN/I thread. Thank you so much for your hard work and your help, Flyer22. There's some rich irony in the AN/I discussion; we must be extra nice to newbies but apparently our established editors with 150,000 contributions get a whole nother kind of treatment. Who will take up the slack and keep an eye on sexuality-related pages now that you're gone? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 14:03, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Your rollback rights have been restored

Good news:

• 05:27, September 21, 2014 Euryalus (talk | contribs) changed group membership for User:Flyer22 from pending changes reviewer to pending changes reviewer and rollbacker (Per consensus at AN/I thread.)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Log/rights

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=626436494#Proposal_that_User:Protonk.27s_removal_of_my_.28Flyer22.27s.29_WP:Rollback_rights_be_overturned

Congrats! -- Brangifer (talk) 05:44, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

It certainly reminded me of sledgehammers and nuts. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 05:47, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

This was certainly an overreaction of the heavy handed type. There was no attempt to AGF and err on the side of mercy. It's good that reason won out in the end. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

And it has apparently cost the project a good editor. Yet nothing at all will be done to rein in admin's like Protonk who take such hasty actions. And I'm still very interested in what caused Protonk to audit Flyer22's use of rollbacker to begin with. LHM 05:54, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Came here to provide a notification, but others beat me to it. Closing comments are here and happy to discuss if required. Euryalus (talk) 05:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Yah! Now you can get back to what you're best at: editing important articles and educating the rest of us about policy. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 06:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Glad to see this was seen as just the mistake it was. I feel slightly awkward that I was used as the catalyst for this. Can't say you were completely without fault...nor should anyone as you did call a legitimate edit, proven to be accurate, vandalism. But it isn't as if other, even in administration, don't take leaps with our policies. I actually do assume good faith an trust you honestly felt that was vandalism. But I want to at least caution you that vandalism as an accusation hurts those that are wrongly accused...as much as it must have hurt you to have the rollback riht removed. But I also temper that with my knowledge of your outstanding work. Happy editing!--Mark Miller (talk) 11:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• It occurs to me—not for the first time—that if Misplaced Pages paid half as much attention to the way it treats its regulars as the way it treats its newbies, this place would be way happier and a lot more productive. We bend over backwards to be gentle and forgiving to new users, and that's all well and good up to a point, although we sometimes go to such extremes in that regard that articles suffer and patience is exhausted. At the other end of the spectrum, we have administrators and other "power users" who are so entrenched that they can behave abominably with impunity, and they often do. Between these poles resides a vast body of editors who try hard to do the right thing and usually succeed but are nonetheless subject to the most shocking mistreatment when the slightest error is perceived. Whether the error is actually an error doesn't even matter; the allegation is enough. Consider wolves or wild dogs: once the first drop of blood is spilled, the whole pack leaps into action and goes in for the kill. If, by some miracle, the Wikipedian in question survives the onslaught (like, for instance, because she was innocent), her attackers don't forget. They stand ready to pounce, hoping for better luck the next time, and chances are they'll succeed. This phenomenon is woven into the fabric of Misplaced Pages's culture. We abuse our best and our brightest, and by and large we as a community accept that we do this. Whether this state of affairs will be sustainable over the long haul is hard to say. Each year brings a fresh crop of newbies, many of them talented and eager. If they're any good and decide to stick around, they'll soon learn that the honeymoon is brief, the respect accorded to them will quickly evaporate, and neither the quality nor the quantity of their contributions will protect them if a glib wikilawyer with lots of time on his hands takes a dislike to them. Rivertorch's Evil Twin (talk) 14:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Resilient Barnstar
	While it appears that I missed much of what transpired as I do not often look at the drama boards. Hope to see you back to keep up your good work. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!-LHM

	The Editor's Barnstar
	Hate to see such a good content editor leave over an administrator (once again) thinking that their adminship is a badge to police regular editors, rather than just a few extra tools. LHM 15:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

We hope that you will return!

After re-logging in recently, I noticed that you had referred to me in a talk page with signzzed (or what ever the user name is), and I am impressed with how you dealt with the situation.

Yeah, the removal of rights was crap, but I hope that you return as you are very important to the community and many people have a lot to learn from your experience.

Best, Jab843 (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• I second, third and fourth the above message. Your stewardship of various articles is beneficial to the project. OTOH if you need to step away I certainly respect that decision. Best regards to you on WikiP and especially off. MarnetteD|Talk 20:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
• Wishing you well Flyer... The community values the great work you have done and looks forward to your return. Johnuniq (talk) 01:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• I sixth the top message and echo the comments of the editors above. This place needs you and will not be the same in your absence. Δρ.Κ.  02:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Flyer. Whatever is going on... we need you. I need you. It's a hard-knock world Flyer. And I guess we never get the props we crave in this world and certainly not here. But a lot of people need you and want you here and admire you, so don't go. I was kicked out of the admin corps for (IMO) insufficient reason, and these things happen, and you can't worry about stuff like that too much, you just move on... as I say, it's a hard-knock world. Don't let it get you down Flyer. Herostratus (talk) 10:36, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
• Between what happened you and Sitush, I've come to the realization this place is run by retards. Whomever compared Misplaced Pages to World of Warcraft couldn't have been more accurate. Getting "got" is the prix fixe three course meal, whereas articles are a cold, wet appetizer. So fuck them. Don't return. They don't deserve you.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 22:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• But we aren't doing this for them. We volunteer here because we believe in the idea of an encyclopedia. Flyer22 and I crossed paths at a few film pages, and she set an example many others could follow. I'm glad to say she even "Thanked" me once. I look forward to seeing her return. (And the longer you wait, Flyer, the more dramatic it will be...) - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• We once worked on Frozen (2013 film) together, you remember that? I really miss it, and I really miss you. You are among the most active users on the STiki leaderboard, this encyclopedia and the whole community owe you so much. Please come back, though Misplaced Pages is a voluntary work. It's sad to see so many experienced editors leaving Misplaced Pages for such subtle issues. —ALittleQuenhi (talk to me) 09:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	You do great work and Misplaced Pages is much worse off without you. You are appreciated by all those interested in building and encyclopedia! I am One of Many (talk) 05:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Thanks for all of your work on Misplaced Pages. It wouldn't be the same without you. Just a note to let you know your presence is appreciated. Viriditas (talk) 23:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

I'll try to keep this short. Flyer22, you are one of a tiny handful of superlative editors I've encountered in my 8+ years here. You are exceptionally perceptive, you have a remarkable capacity to effectively analyze a variety of topics, and you have a superb grasp of at least one extraordinarily complex, confusing, and frequently contentious content area. You also have a thorough understanding of what makes a high-quality article, and you care enough to fight for it, even when confronted by trolls, lunatics, and an unending parade of unscrupulous users seeking to pervert our core ideals in order to further their own personal or professional agendas. Those qualities have stood you in good stead as a content contributor, a vandal fighter, and a contributor to discussions. They also have made you a target—not just of the aforementioned agenda-driven users but also of various editors whose motives or ethics are less noble than your own or whose poor judgment gets in the way of making sound decisions. You're not the first editor to fall prey to their nonsense, and you won't be the last. You are, however, one of the very best. I have no idea whether blanking the pages in your user space is tantamount to posting a "retired" notice, but since various Wikipedians seem to be taking it that way and are imploring you to "return", let me say this much: please consider not only what's best for Misplaced Pages but also what's right for you. Whether you stay or go, I hope you know how much you're appreciated. Rivertorch's Evil Twin (talk) 04:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 25#Category:Disney_Princess

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 August 25#Category:Disney_Princess. Thanks. —ALittleQuenhi (talk to me) 09:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)Template:Z48

Thank you to all of the supportive comments above, and supportive emails

I thank all the editors who have offered support to me on this WP:Rollback rights drama, whether above or via email. And you as well, Euryalus, for my WP:Rollback rights restoration. I was considering taking a longer break from Misplaced Pages, but it's best that I go ahead and respond now, not only so that everyone knows that I'm okay and that there's no need to continue to stroke my ego, LOL, but also so that I go ahead and get back to Misplaced Pages work and put this drama behind me...for the record. I am not looking to be a WP:Diva, and, because I knew that I would likely return to this site, I did not put Template:Retired on my user page and user talk page after stating in the WP:Rollback rights WP:ANI case that "now I'm out of here." I knew that I needed a break from Misplaced Pages to calm down and to better process everything. And that, in case I didn't return, I should go ahead and clear my user page and user talk page. Because I, like a lot of other veteran Misplaced Pages editors (whether good editors, bad editors such as WP:Sockpuppets, or something in between), can't seem to leave this site forever, I have now put Template:Can't retire at the top of my user page and talk page. I saw it on Ansh666's user page during this other recent WP:ANI case involving me, and decided to steal it.

Like I've told fellow Misplaced Pages editors via email, this WP:Rollback rights matter made me reevaluate some of my approaches to the way that I edit Misplaced Pages, and that I should dial it back in some cases or at least return to the softer Flyer22 that I was at one point. Misplaced Pages hardened me, made me more cynical and a variety of other things, but I need to stop being such a bitch at this place (a sometimes-persona that contrasts how I am in non-Misplaced Pages life, or what some refer to as "real life"). As mentioned by others above, I deal with a lot of contentious topics on Misplaced Pages and various WP:POV-pushers, including those who engage in WP:Activism, whether they are aware of it or not, and it has taken its toll. My mindset changed to where I figured that I have to be harder and colder in this Misplaced Pages environment, dealing with the types of topics and issues that I deal with. Others have mentioned that a person has to have a thick skin to edit Misplaced Pages, at least if you edit contentious topics, and I feel that's true. Add that on to the fact that I battle depression, which I've been open about on my user talk page, as recently as this discussion (excuse the heading and main topic of that discussion), and it's certainly often not easy for me to edit here. Finding the right balance with all of that can be difficult. So unlike what Dusti thought, a thought which compelled him to add this addition to Misplaced Pages:Here to build an encyclopedia, it's not simply about "losing a flag." One might say, "Well, how about you edit non-contentious topics?" My response to that is that any topic can be contentious at some point, and that my areas of expertise on Misplaced Pages are mainly the more contentious topics (sexual topics, medical topics, and anatomy topics). I am well-versed in some social topics and science topics as well, and occasionally edit purely scientific topics, but I noted before that there are some things that I don't want to make into "work for Misplaced Pages." And as for soap operas, while I used to mainly edit in that area, I no longer mainly edit in that area, and my knowledge regarding all of that is more confined to certain American soap operas.

As for being able to take criticism and engaging with WP:Newbies, those who have watched my user talk page for months or years know that I am open to criticism. If I was not, the comment at the top of my user talk page about being open to compliments or criticism would not have been there (and would not be there now). There is a difference between being open to criticism and not agreeing with it, especially if one find's the criticism to be faulty or misplaced. I have made mistakes with the vandalism tools (which, again, are not only for reverting vandalism); I know that and have acknowledged it times before on Misplaced Pages. I'm certain that every other WP:Patroller has also made mistakes with the tools. I know the importance of not biting the newbies. But as was made clear before (User talk:Flyer22/Archive 14#Please don't bite the newbies), reverting a WP:Newbie is not necessarily biting that WP:Newbie, even if it's a revert without an explanation. In the "User talk:Flyer22/Archive 14#Please don't bite the newbies" discussion, editors address how it can be less than sensible to expect WP:Patrollers to leave a manual message for each WP:Good faith but unconstructive edit that we revert. We are using tools when we WP:Patrol because it is quicker and more efficient. We can revert a lot more problematic edits with these tools than without them. A major difference between WP:Rollback by itself and WP:STiki, a difference that apparently got lost to some people commenting in my WP:Rollback rights thread, is that WP:STiki, unlike WP:Rollback, does leave a WP:Edit summary when reverting. Sure, its WP:Edit summary when reverting a WP:Good-faith edit is not an explicit explanation, but it's an explanation nevertheless. Leaving a message when reverting a WP:Good faith edit is not a part of the WP:STiki design, and it's that design that I was following. If some people have a problem with that design, it can be discussed on the WP:STiki talk page. That stated, I will do better when reverting problematic edits, including more often considering to leave an edit summary for a WP:Good-faith edit. I might switch over to WP:Huggle to do that, which gives more options. But as for blanking, I will continue to revert that as WP:Vandalism if it looks like WP:Vandalism; this is per WP:VANDTYPES.

I will also be leaving my user page blank for a while, with the exception of the Template:Can't retire; this will help remind me that I was once a WP:Newbie, and would have been utterly lost on Misplaced Pages without the help of Elonka. The blanked user page, without my Misplaced Pages achievements, will also help keep me humble. I will restore it eventually; but for now...very humble is the way to go. Flyer22 (talk) 23:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey, welcome back. --NeilN 00:32, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course, I stole the template from someone else, too, but I don't remember who. Happy editing! ansh666 00:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Happy reverting! OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Glad to see you're back. I recall really liking the warning functions of Huggle when I used it, so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend giving it a try. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Mark Arsten, I've mentioned that I've used WP:Huggle, and occasionally use it these days; that was my first anti-vandalism tool other than WP:Rollback, but I found that WP:STiki is quicker at spotting vandalism and other unconstructive edits. And it's a simpler tool for that purpose. Flyer22 (talk) 22:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Quick question

Hi, Flyer22. I have a quick question for you. I've noticed a pattern of editors targeted by admins over the last several days. I'm curious if you think your recent loss of rollback permissions on 20 September had anything to do with your support for my unblock previously on 18 September. Your loss of permissions (seemingly out of the blue) followed soon after, followed by the current block of Lithistman, who also supported me. In all three cases, we challenged the authority of admin John. Soon after we challenged John, admin Spartaz and admin Drmies showed up to support him, with Drmies successfully filing a trumped up ANI against Lithistman. I'm wondering if you think this is just a coincidence, or if admins are working behind the scenes to target editors who challenge their authority. Viriditas (talk) 01:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The circumstances behind the recent unpleasantness are easy to see and do not involve any of the users named above. Flyer had a dispute with a returned user who then edit warred to remove certain text from Flyer's user page; the returned user then went to ANI (see ANI archive) where a big fuss occurred. That fuss drew people to look at Flyer's talk at a time when it was easy to see this section. That focused attention on rollback with the ensuing drama. It's not relevant here, but I'll mention my attitude about reverting vandalism. I once tried STiki but found it too hard because I'm a bit of a waverer who can often see some good on both sides of an issue, and STiki found many cases of dubious edits which I did not want to label as vandalism because they were essentially just cluelessness or test edits. When using rollback, I often drop {{uw-test1}} on the perpetrator's talk because it is safest—it's often correct, and it means I don't have to struggle to make up my mind whether the particular edit satisfied WP:VAND. For the same reason, I avoid calling an edit "vandalism"—if it is intentional vandalism, applying that label just provides the perp with satisfaction, and if it's not intentional, it's a very big mistake which is pretty well impossible to undo. Johnuniq (talk) 03:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas, coming out of two big WP:ANI cases regarding me this month, I'd rather not get sucked into another big WP:ANI case or more Misplaced Pages drama at this point. I'm sure that we'd all love to avoid Misplaced Pages drama (those of us who are sane, that is). But to answer your question without digging too deep into my feelings on all of this, I will state that I, for the most part, did not WP:Assume good faith when this WP:Administrator approached me and took my WP:Rollback rights after I got snappy with him. Yes, I felt that there was an ulterior motive there. And I also implied that another WP:Administrator perhaps sides with his fellow WP:Administrators simply because they are his fellow WP:Administrators. But Johnuniq has WP:Assumed good faith regarding the "he took my WP:Rollback rights" matter, and I always take into consideration Johnuniq's feelings on a Misplaced Pages matter. As for John, you already know that I feel that he is WP:Involved regarding the John Barrowman‎ article, and I've recently told him such. I don't know what it will take for John to stop acting in an administrative role in disputed cases in which he is involved, but I'm tired of it. And, Lithistman, I very much appreciate you defending me so fiercely. Thank you. If you want me to state something regarding your block case, I will, but staying out of drama regarding John is best for me; being involved with John-WP:BLP drama does not bring out the best in me in the least, except for when fighting for what I believe in and bettering the Misplaced Pages community as a result (such as making sure that there is no more careless yanking of People magazine from WP:BLP articles). Flyer22 (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas--great theory! It is, of course, unfortunate that I stated at ANI that I did not think that the rollbacks performed by Flyer were problematic. Also, I do not believe John was involved with that discussion. Or Spartaz. Also, I think a common theory holds that I'm with the "Malleus gang", and Protonk and Malleus, that's not a happy couple. Also, Chillum and I have had our disagreements, to put it mildly, and we're no longer having cocktails together, which is a shame. But never let the truth stand in the way of a good conspiracy! Flyer, I'm happy you got your roll back. (And I actually did look at all of those diffs.) Drmies (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

It's good to hear from all sides, Drmies. So I appreciate getting your take on these matters. And thank you for your support of the restoration of my WP:Rollback rights. Flyer22 (talk) 01:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Rollback abuse is kind of a pet peeve of mine. There's too many "new page patrollers", you know, the kids with the anti-vandalism machine gunning badge on their user page, who simply hit roll back (especially with IP editors). It's bitey, it turns off new editors, it discourages conversation, and it's an abuse of a user right, so I take it very seriously, which is why I looked at those edits carefully. I don't know Protonk very well as an admin and I have no reason to doubt their expertise, but I wanted to see for myself and I just didn't see what they saw. If it were up to me, the rollback function would be separated from Twinkle and all that other stuff (it's integrated with it) so it remains a right that can be yanked if someone abuses it. BTW, I don't know if Protonk discussed these things with you, but I do suggest that you take such opinions into account, if you haven't already; Protonk has a ton of edits and lots of experience, and even if you are in disagreement you might still benefit from it. Anyway, that's all over now, right? Happy editing, Drmies (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Drmies, another editor advised me similarly regarding Protonk. I told him that I'm keeping that in mind. Flyer22 (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) This caught my eye. I enabled Twinkle a long time ago, and I'm certain it doesn't require rollback rights. What it does do is give one the equivalent of rollback, without actually having it. I recently asked for, and received, rollback rights so that I could use STiki which I found rather good and made me think about each edit presented. The only problem I've had with it is clicking a rollback link by accident on a touch screen with my paws, but it is simple to rollback the rollback, and apologise in the edit summary. I'm glad the silly drama is finished, and sanity has resumed, or at least what passes for sanity round here. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Precious

child protection
Thank you, user with significant knowledge in the social/scientific/psychological/sexual fields, for quality unbiased articles on these topics, such as Clitoris and Todd Manning, for explaining edit summaries, for your firm stance on child protection, for your collection of vandalism moments, - you are an awesome Wikipedian! - Enjoy a "bit of tea every now and again, to stop, relax, reflect and prepare ourselves to finish the tasks at hand".

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda Arendt. I mentioned above that the ego-stroking isn't needed. But if it's simply a matter of stating thank you, then I thank you as well. I've seen you around, and I know that you do great work at this site. Your user page shows some of your great work. As for the Todd Manning article noted above, give it a few more months, and it will be much more improved, as drastic changes to it are being discussed at Talk:Todd Manning and worked on at User:Figureskatingfan/Todd sandbox, preparing the article for WP:Featured article status. You are more than welcome to join discussion on the article talk page of course. Flyer22 (talk) 11:00, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	Thank you for all your anti-vandal contributions! Romtam 12:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Reversion of edits on Effects of pornography

Hi Flyer! The edit you reverted from "causal relationships" to "casual relationships" comes directly from the source cited in the article . We're programmed to think of "casual relationships", but in this case causal is grammatical correct and reliably sourced. Thanks! Jacona (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Jacona, thanks for explaining and reverting me on that. I had meant to check the source, but I also felt that it was likely a typo, which we are allowed to correct per MOS:QUOTE. I've seen these two words mixed up in research literature, but I agree that causal is the right word in this case. Flyer22 (talk) 01:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Asides

Regarding a couple of your comments at ANI. I am responding here so as not to set that discussion off on a tangent. First, regarding this comment, yes, he edited that article three months before me. His showing up to edit there within hours of my edits would not be remarkable as an isolated incident. However, as a pattern of his behavior going back months I find it disturbing and a resorting to behavior that I and others have asked him to stop in the past, as my evidence in that discussion shows. In fact, he claimed that he was observing a self-imposed 1-way iban a couple of months ago after a similar discussion to the one going on now.

Second, regarding these comments, although I do find a lot (but not all) of pornography offensive, and that may make me "anti-porn" in that sense, my intention as a WP editor is not to remove well-sourced, due-weight material, but to remove poorly-sourced, undue-weight material and more importantly to introduce well-sourced, due-weight material that balances the existing material. My observation of the articles on this subject on WP is that the pro and con material are significantly out of balance toward the pro side, not only in quantity but in presentation.

Still, I am more than happy to leave the project and the subject area if that will make it easier for S. to stay away from me. Lightbreather (talk) 17:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who is talking about whom, but people changing articles that I watch may get the same impression: I react as soon as see something on my watchlist, because I would forget otherwise. - We have too many good people "leaving the project", please don't do that if at all possible. I felt like leaving a few times, but every time I noticed that it was in reaction to what other people did, and I finally decided that I decide myself, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, I know what it's like to be WP:Hounded, so I very much understand your concerns on that. I think it would have been best if you kept your replies to me on this matter at WP:ANI; it's usually better to keep a discussion jointed instead of disjointed, and it's better if others there understand where you are coming from on this topic. I see that S, as you call him here at my talk page, has replied to my description of how he views pornographic material. Would you be opposed to me providing a link there to your reply on my description of how you view pornographic material? As for pornography articles, I usually don't edit them (unless one considers a sex topic that has sexual imagery to be a pornography article), and I keep my personal feelings about pornography off Misplaced Pages. But I do understand the need to have more women involved in editing such articles. So if you are helping out in that area (S has stated that you are, by the way, whether one thinks that he was being sincere or not), that's a good thing. Flyer22 (talk) 01:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to share, if you wish. Lightbreather (talk) 01:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

For all the work you do in one of the awkward corners of Misplaced Pages

Fiddle Faddle 18:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Recent photo discussion

As a humorous aside, the photo we've discussed, this one, is also used on this page with this many complaints: none! ] As you say, it's probably not due to the relative merits of the photo, but to the lack of imagination of the people who are looking to purge WP of perceived naughtiness. (I didn't want to post this on the Talk page in question and therefore alert the campaigners to another article to harass. Think of it as an anonymity program for WP articles!) Yours, Wordreader (talk) 03:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wordreader, well, since your proposal at the Vagina article talk page will undoubtedly help decrease the complaints about that vagina image being a prepubescent child's vagina, or what Naomi Wolf considers to be abnormal, as noted in this discussion, or the vulva of a porn star, changing the lead image to your suggestion would help. Flyer22 (talk) 03:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Mariah Carey

Hi again Flyer22. I noticed your edits there, where you accused me of violating WP:POINT. In my view the greatest single challenge to editing here is to be able to get along with other editors with whom one disagrees. By making these accusations, to which I don't intend to reply in the article talk space as this is not an appropriate place for such a discussion, I think you risk making yourself look foolish and petty, and you do not inconvenience me in the least. I believe I have seen you complain in the past about hounding; it might be well to avoid giving any impression of hounding me by following me from place to place issuing complaints about me. I have seen many editors come and go in my 8+1⁄2 years here, and in my experience with very few exceptions those who are here to fight all the time do not last as well as those who forgive and forget and move on. Anyway, I see you have been here almost as long as me and made a fair few edits, almost half of them in the last year. I am glad you got your rollback right back, and this is not an administrative warning, just a friendly message to let you know how these comments came across. I would prefer it if you could raise any concerns you may have about my edits at my talk page in the first instance, and keep article talk space for discussing improvements to articles. Best wishes, --John (talk) 16:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I looked up what Flyer wrote. Here's the "offending" portion, from what I could tell:

Like Ritchie333 mentioned above, the WP:FA standards were different back in 2007. Either way, the level of quality that is this article is what I generally see all around Misplaced Pages regarding WP:GA or WP:FA WP:BLP singer articles. The discussion John is talking about is a heated discussion, and it's bound to have editors going to articles that are pointed out there, including to make a point opposite of what is pointed out there. Flyer22 (talk) 11:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Nothing there in any way accuses John of violating WP:POINT, though from the somewhat passive-aggressive note left here, he feels it was aimed at him. Be that as it may, that is a John problem, not a Flyer problem. LHM 17:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

John, I stand by what I stated at the Mariah Carey talk page. You can accuse me of WP:Hounding you and the like, but there will most certainly be no evidence of it. For example, it's very clear by the Mariah Carey article history and talk page history that I have been at that article and talk page long before you have. When it comes to you visiting an article that I edit, on the other hand, such as popping up at even obscure articles such as Reproductive coercion, whether the article is publicized at WP:ANI or not? That's a different matter. I'm also certain that while I don't watch your user page, you do watch mine. Lithistman is right that your above post is passive-aggressive. You should know by now that you do not intimidate me in the least, and, that if you were to block me for anything when you are clearly WP:Involved, I could get that block overturned in a heartbeat. When I know what I see on Misplaced Pages, I often comment on it. Getting along with an editor, as I have done with you for months until this point, is one thing; turning a blind eye is another. Oh, and make sure that you refrain from WP:Personal attacks, like this one, on my user talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks? --John (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Flyer, I sometimes get a very Sergeant Schultzy-vibe when following discussions involving John. LHM 22:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Before you undo hours of work: WP:Plagiarism

I think that you need to garner some support that I am wrong before you undo my improvements. I have been an educator for 25 years, 12 of them at the University level. I know what I am talking about regarding this issue. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Rationalobserver, I appreciate your knowledge. However, I'm going to revert all of your changes regarding WP:Plagiarism, pending discussion (except for your talk page comments of course). Your edits will obviously still be in the edit history and can be salvaged at any time. Like I stated at the WP:Plagiarism talk page, you should take this matter to WP:RfC. Substantive changes to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, especially the big changes you are making regarding how Misplaced Pages treats plagiarism, should have WP:Consensus. I don't think that they should be molded by you alone with input from one other editor. Now that I've objected, I think that these pages should be reverted to the WP:STATUSQUO. So that is what I am going to do. That Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines should reflect WP:Consensus is stated at the top of these pages. We don't automatically base Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on what academia states, and certainly not on what a lone Misplaced Pages editor believes is the consensus among academics (no matter if that Misplaced Pages editor is an expert or not an expert).

You have been making a lot of changes to Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, and I'm generally not a believer in WP:Be bold when it comes to these pages. Reverting you on this matter is not personal. For example, at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines, it's noted that I recently reverted additions because I think that significant changes to Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines should generally be discussed at the talk pages of those policies or guidelines first and that this "is indeed a good enough reason to revert, as is made clear by the notes at the top of these pages, and as has been made clear time and time again by my reverting in such cases, including the aforementioned WP:Reliable sources edit. It's been often enough that changes have been made to policies and guidelines only to be reverted months later because a significant number of editors missed that WP:Creep instance. WP:Silent consensus is too often a fail, which is why it's also only an essay. I uphold WP:Consensus until that is no longer the WP:Consensus." It took Arthur Rubin coming in to uphold my revert. So reverting on matters like these is simply how I am. If you don't start a WP:RfC on this WP:Plagiarism matter and/or invite the WP:Village pump to weigh in on it, then I will. But I advise you to do so. Simply trying to debate me on the matter will not cut it.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with " WP:Plagiarism" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Flyer22, I am not sure that I understand your position on distinctive words versus distinctive phrases. Can you please elaborate?

Regarding distinctive words, I offer the following example: John Smith was a prodigious worker, but he was also considered obtuse.

After 25 years in academia, it's my understanding that the above example contains two distinctive words: "prodigious" and "obtuse". Therefore, the following close paraphrase fails the plagiarism text:

Scholars have acknowledged that John Smith was a prodigious laborer, and that his peers described him as obtuse.

On the other hand, this is acceptable: Scholars have praised John Smith's long work history, but they also point out that many of his peers described him as "obtuse".

What exactly do you disagree with? Rationalobserver (talk) 23:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, I'm interested in you bringing the wider Misplaced Pages community in on these matters. I think that I'm not the only editor who would take issue with Misplaced Pages stating that I can't use a word unless it's in a quote because the copyrighted source used that same word. Care needs to be taken with such instruction. Flyer22 (talk) 23:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You are intentionally missing the point, because it's not every word, it's distinctive ones that function as an element of the author's original creative expression. Otherwise, what does the copyright apply to, the prepositions and coordinating conjunctions? You are absolutely wrong about this, but I imagine that the amount of energy it would take to go the distance, combined with your inevitable group of sympathetic Wikipedian's, would make demonstrating that highly exhausting and therefore unlikely. All I ask is that you provide one WP:RS that explicitly states that taking creative or distinct words from source material is acceptable in a proper paraphrase. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mentioned distinctive at the WP:Plagiarism talk page and asked just how are we supposed to define that (consistently define it, at that). So I'm clear on the "it's not every word" aspect. I think that you are intentionally missing the point. So are you going to bring the wider Misplaced Pages community in on this matter, or do I have to? You don't want a lot of others to weigh in on this, why? Because they will sympathize with me? On what grounds will they do so? Liking me? Not being as knowledgeable as you state that you are on these matters? Flyer22 (talk) 23:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Your response is exactly why I don't want to spend a lot of energy on this, but I will say that if you cannot identify the distinctive words in a piece of source material, then you have no business paraphrasing from it. Paraphrasing is an intellectual endeavor, and if you don't understand what I mean there is no point trying to explain it to you; i.e., sometimes you either get it or you don't get it. But I don't know of any other way to identify plagiarism without looking for distinctive words or phrases. Anyway, I can live with the fact that the Misplaced Pages guideline as currently written is not at all consistent with academia or the legal world, can you? Rationalobserver (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Your approach to me, and to any other person, on this matter would work better if you didn't engage in condescension. You know, that superior air you've been using to engage me with at my talk page. I know what paraphrasing is, and I asked you a legitimate question about applying the "distinctive" rationale to a word, as opposed to a phrase, on Misplaced Pages. The Misplaced Pages guidelines have supported the "distinctive phrase" aspect. And whether you want to admit it or not, or believe it or not, having Misplaced Pages come down on this matter regarding a lone word needs thorough discussion and input from a significant number of Misplaced Pages editors. I doubt that the reason that your "distinctive word" aspect was not already there at the aforementioned pages is because Misplaced Pages has never had a Misplaced Pages editor who understands plagiarism as well as you do work on those pages. Our Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines usually reflect input from a significant number of editors; that's the way that Misplaced Pages, which is a collaborative website, is supposed to work. I'll keep open the idea of bringing the wider Misplaced Pages community into this dispute. Flyer22 (talk) 00:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Take a look at this and let me know if you think that Dan56 is within the proper boundaries. Am I wrong here? Rationalobserver (talk) 01:33, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You pointed to Dan56 in the aforementioned WP:Plagiarism talk page discussion; so I knew that it was that discussion that brought you to the WP:Plagiarism guideline. Like Dr.K., who reverted you here at the WP:Close paraphrasing page, another reason that I took objection to you changing the WP:Plagiarism guideline so drastically is because you were in dispute with Dan56. One of my pet peeves, and I've mentioned it before, is when an editor significantly changes a guideline or policy during a Misplaced Pages article dispute concerning that guideline or policy, especially if the editor then cites the text that he or she (or "they" if singular they is preferred) significantly altered during that dispute. I'm familiar with Dan56, and I've pinged him via WP:Echo to this discussion so that he will know what I think of this matter. While Dan56 has often contributed positively to Misplaced Pages, I do see that he has engaged in a lot of WP:Close paraphrasing at the article in question. So I understand your concerns on that front. But I don't believe that use of a single "distinctive" word, for example, should automatically be called plagiarism simply because the copyrighted source has used that same "distinctive" word. Not generally anyway. And neither has the Misplaced Pages community generally felt that way, which is why it has stated for some time now that close paraphrasing is sometimes unavoidable and that WP:Intext-attribution without quotes can be fine when using minor phrasing from a source. I'm not stating that I'm disagreeing with all of your views on plagiarism or WP:Plagiarism; I'm simply stating that I'm not in complete agreement with you, and that this should be discussed among the wider Misplaced Pages community. I don't think that it's a matter that should only involve you and me or a few editors. Flyer22 (talk) 02:37, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

First of all I want to apologize for getting snarky with you yesterday. I am usually more congenial, and I regret taking a condescending tone with you. I took your comments about what was distinctive too literally, and I see now that you were being slightly rhetorical. I hear you about making changes mid-dispute, and I agree that it's not a good idea. Having said that, I assumed my edits were not entirely against consensus because Misplaced Pages:Plagiarism#Avoiding plagiarism already included the note: "even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." I fail to see why this would apply only to examples of "No quotation marks, in-text attribution", but not close paraphrasing, which seems to be essentially the same thing. From my standpoint, there is really no such thing as appropriate close paraphrasing that borrows verbatim words or phrases and places them outside quotation marks, and I contend that there is only proper paraphrasing and direct quoting, and anything in between (at least when dealing with creative expressions from non-free content) is plagiarism. What are your thoughts regarding the current version of the guideline, which includes a note suggesting that distinctive words and phrases should be enclosed in quotation marks? Rationalobserver (talk) 15:12, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

FTR, Dan56 is using your revert and the existing guideline to argue that these are proper paraphrases:

• Source: "We often recorded at night after everyone at the office had left."

Article: "They usually recorded at night when XL's staff had left"

"At night" and "recorded" is what you're arguing? They're the simplest and most obvious phrases to use here (WP:PLAG#What is not plagiarism) Dan56 (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Source (ibid): "vocals seem to portray an almost intimate late‑night conversation"

Article: "vocals sound as 'intimate' and conversational"

The slight alteration of conversation → conversational does not qualify as a fair paraphrase.

Yes it does, and he's quoted and attributed in-text. Dan56 (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

What's interesting about the second example, is that Dan56 has placed intimate in quotes, which is exactly what I am suggesting is necessary with all distinctive words or phrases. I feel that this is a can of worms that will only spread, as now another editor has used your revert to justify that using similar phrases is appropriate outside quotation marks. Rationalobserver (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Here are a few more that I found:

• Source: "they were favourites before the shortlist was even announced"

Article: "Before the nominations shortlist had been announced"

• Source: "The pressures of touring had increased long-standing tensions between Qureshi and the rest of the band"

Article: "The difficulties of touring early on exacerbated the growing tensions between the band and Qureshi"

• Source: "already basic arrangements"

Article: "already minimalist arrangements"

It would help me judge whether I want to put any more energy into this if you could tell me if I am way off base with these examples. I see this as plagiarism, but Dan56 sees this as perfectly acceptable close paraphrasing, per our guideline. Perhaps an academic standard is not desired here, as it is too difficult for mediocre writers to uphold, but I'm not sure that lowering the bar so that plagiarism is re-defined as close paraphrasing is the best approach either. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry to be a nuisance, but it would be helpful for me if you explained why my understanding of plagiarism vis-à-vis close paraphrasing is not in keeping with yours or Misplaced Pages's? Am I inappropriately holding Dan56 to an academic standard that is not expected or encouraged here? Rationalobserver (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Epithelium

All of that can be found in any introductory anatomy text. An article on epthelia is pretty useless without mentioning stratified epithelia. --Khajidha (talk) 14:01, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Khajidha, that is no good reason to restore all of that. If you want to preserve it, per the WP:Preserve policy, and are not going to source it yourself, then post it on the talk page. That's better than expecting others (meaning me, other WP:Anatomy editors or passerby readers and/or editors) to source it for you. Flyer22 (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

And, like I made clear with this WP:Dummy edit, "Yes, all of that should be sourced, per the WP:Verifiability policy. This is not a 'sky is blue' matter. The typical average person knows none of that stuff." Flyer22 (talk) 14:16, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Found and added source. I find it odd that these statements needed citing when others equally unknown to the general public are given without citation as well. --Khajidha (talk) 15:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Khajidha, looking deeper in the edit history of that article, I see that this one-time account removed the material without explanation. Regarding the source you added for it, I hope that the source covers all of that material, and not just some of it. And there is no need to duplicate the full reference; do see WP:REFNAME. And as for other material being unsourced in an article, that does not mean adding more unsourced material to the article is justified; that is a WP:Other stuff exists argument, and not a good use of that argument. The WP:Burden was on you to source the material in question, and if you have sourced even some of it, that is a good thing. Flyer22 (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Re: Human anus

Sure I did categorize, I categorized it in the image section. (N0n3up (talk) 02:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC))

N0n3up, your edit on this matter, which I reverted, does not fool me; I state this because I think that you were trying to censor images of the human anus. You even censored the heading of this section on my talk page. I de-censored it so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. In short, there are many Misplaced Pages articles that should have a lead image. The Human anus article is one of them. If people don't want to look at a human anus, whether as soon as they visit a page or seeing it at the bottom of a page, they should think twice before going to the Human anus article. Flyer22 (talk) 02:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages might not be censored nor was it my intention to do so, but I felt it was better to use one of the images in the image section instead while still maintaining the same image but in the image section. In regards to what you said that there are many Misplaced Pages articles that should have a lead image and the Human anus article being one of them, there are various articles that don't have a head image yet they do just fine, such as Pathogen being one of them. You seemed to have gotten somewhat over-upset over the edit I did and saw it as an intention of censorship when only I was trying replace it with one of the more anatomical images in the image section. (N0n3up (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2014 (UTC))

This had no image. Offhand, I can't think of any article that focuses on an exterior human body part that doesn't have a photo of the body part as the lead image. --NeilN 02:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Have you checked the Additional images section? Besides, I was reffering to a WP:Med related article in which I mentioned had no lead image. (N0n3up (talk) 02:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC))

N0n3up, I got annoyed (not upset in the way that you are seemingly thinking) by your removal of the human anus lead image because, yes, it looked like a clear-cut invalid case of censorship to me. And like NeilN stated above, you didn't replace that image. I pointed you to the WP:Offensive material guideline obviously so that you can read it. That guideline states: "Material that would be considered vulgar or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." I don't see that the diagrams are equally suitable alternatives to the real-life images. And as for the Pathogen article, that is a completely different case. I am well aware that "there are various articles that don't have a head image yet they do just fine." This is why I stated that "there are many Misplaced Pages articles that should have a lead image. The Human anus article is one of them." For example, unlike anatomy articles, articles about mental disorders usually do not need or significantly benefit from a lead image, especially since it's not easy, and is impossible in the vast majority of cases, to display what the mental disorder looks like. Flyer22 (talk) 03:03, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I understood the concept in the first place, needless to say that I planned to change the lead image with the anatomical images shown below in the article. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. (N0n3up (talk) 03:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC))

Prostate

What is the advantage of specifying that the prostate is in male mammals only, when it can be misleading. I can understand an objection to including females in that line. But why specify male, when that can be misunderstood? 184.77.68.158 (talk) 20:12, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello, IP. I believe that I was clear when reverting you here. As you surely know, in common usage, the term prostate refers to male anatomy, not to female anatomy. That is why the article is predominantly centered on males. Yes, the Skene's gland is sometimes referred to as the female prostate, but not nearly enough to give it the same WP:Weight by removing "male" in the way that you did. The Skene's gland has its own Misplaced Pages article, obviously, and that article is not titled Female prostate. Because of the common use of the word prostate, I don't think that readers will be confused by not seeing an aspect of female anatomy referred to as the prostate. Furthermore, the Prostate article currently has a WP:Hatnote pointing readers to the Skene's gland article and a section on it lower in the article. If you want to add mention of the Skene's gland/female prostate to the lead, per WP:Lead, I don't object to that. It was there before, but an IP removed it, and I responded to the IP's edit with this edit. Flyer22 (talk) 03:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		I want you to have this barnstar as a token of my respect for the outstanding work you have done for a long time in the field of human sexuality. This group of articles is essential to our educational purposes, and the project is very fortunate to have an editor like you doing this work. Thank you. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Cullen328. I very much appreciate this barnstar. And I think you already know that I very much respect and appreciate the work you do on Misplaced Pages. Flyer22 (talk) 05:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)