Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:56, 15 October 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

It didn't make any difference...

As a follow-up to this discussion, here it is two-and-one-half months later and I am quitting Misplaced Pages. I announced it at WikiProject:Editor Retention, Jimbo Wales, if you care. (Though Eric Corbett is involved, so you might want to stay away.) Lightbreather (talk) 01:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really involved in this discussion other than my single comment, but I was lurking in it. I believe that you should read the near end of Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#Been_thinking_of_quitting, then Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#What_it_boils_down_to, and then read Lightbreather's last section at the bottom, for context. Tutelary (talk) 01:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

For the record, Lightbreather's implication that a particular editor is responsible for their retirement is false. Everyone following the noticeboards has seen LB's frequent comments over the last few months—comments that have falsely accused certain editors of personal attacks, and comments which have not gathered more than a tiny support at any of the forums tried. Johnuniq (talk) 03:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I have been harassed and attacked but response at the notice boards has been divided (not "tiny.") More importantly, there is small but powerful group that believes the civility policy is ridiculous, and they defend their “valued contributors" from blocks. For the record, yes: Eric Corbett is one of the primary reasons that I am leaving. Lightbreather (talk) 13:54, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The same Eric Corbett has been a primary reason why I am staying. I decided that I - not other people - decide about leaving or staying. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Lightbreather, so far (and without looking) I have found your "announcements" that you are quitting on the Talkpage on the GGTK ArbCom Evidence page (Section header "I am quitting"), on the Editor Retention Talk page , here on Jimbo's talk page, and yes on your own talk page. Anyone would think you were trying to make maximum "political" capital out of your "quitting".DeCausa (talk) 14:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I am a woman and a feminist and after several years of editing and missing the sort of friendly discussions that I have with my friends (all feminists, of course, including the men), I found Eric's talk page and have watched it ever since. I have found Eric and his friends to be the most intelligent, hardest working, least bigoted, and very important to me, the most fun-loving group I've seen on Misplaced Pages. Gandydancer (talk) 14:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

DeCausa, one could think that, yes. In my case, here's how it happened: I was involved in discussions at Editor Retention when I decided to quit, so I announced it there. Then Eric Corbett decided to leave this message as a parting gift. That made me decide that I would take time to add evidence about him at the GGTF arbcom, but after doing that, I thought I ought to let participants there know that I am leaving. My own page? I think that's pretty typical - besides, somone at Editor Retention suggested it. Here? Of all it's the most likely to be "political" (as you put it), but since I took the time to tell Jimbo, at the end of July, how harassed and attacked I felt by the rampant incivility at Misplaced Pages, it seemed only fitting to tell him now that despite the lengthy discussions here and elsewhere, nothing had really changed. Think what you will, but that's how the announcements transpired. Lightbreather (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That Eric Corbett is still allowed to edit Misplaced Pages is a clear governance failure.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it is a reflection of community consensus, with which you do not happen to agree. Carrite (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That is indeed a reflection of "community consensus" as expressed at the noticeboards by the editors who frequent the noticeboards. In the absence of a survey of the opinions of the larger community, and the WMF has the resources to conduct such a survey, it is not known what the actual consensus of the larger community is on civility and its enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the depth and duration of your feeling on this matter, I am surprised that you didn't start an RFC/U against Eric rather than going the backdoor route of going to ArbCom with a case ostensibly about the Gender Gap Task Force. It is highly disingenuous to intimate that community noticeboards are unrepresentative but then to appeal to an even more narrow group for a decision more to your liking. Fortunately, having snorted through the evidence a bit today, there doesn't seem to be anything Eric has done in connection with that particular case that rises to the level of sanctions. Carrite (talk) 23:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I heard "governance", I heard "toxic personalities" before. My English is limited but both terms don't belong in my concept of a 💕, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I do speak English as a first language and my concept of 'content creators' doesn't meet that of lauded editors who summarise non-academic popular histories (or slim academic journal articles) through to so-called 'Featured Articles' then patrol them as if they're made of gold but, hey, yeah, this is a '💕'. AnonNep (talk) 19:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Is there actually any chance that you could stop pontificating about civility on Misplaced Pages, whilst in the next sentence being incivil to a Misplaced Pages editor who you have banned from your talk page and thus can't reply? The word "hypocrisy" looms very large here. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on Announcement

On the one hand, I think that Lightbreather is drama-mongering. On the other hand, I think that Lightbreather is correct that there is a small cadre that believes that the civility policy is ridiculous and restrictive, and protects those who have reputations as excellent content creators from blocks. I have said here in the recent past that, if the WMF actually wants to enhance civility, it needs to take some sort of action, because the enforcement of civility by the English Misplaced Pages "community" is not consistent with the objectives of the WMF. As Carrite notes below, the WMF has resources. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

But what I don't say below is that WMF resources should be invested in a professional Police of Civility (let's call them "the PC" for short). This entire issue is overblown. You are correct that Lightbreather is drama-mongering. It is the drama-mongers that are driving this entire issue, not the genuinely solid Wikipedians who can be jackasses from time to time when they get poked with a sharp stick... Carrite (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I need some help

I would like to discuss you with my current situation with things. And it has gotten to the point that i do not trust the administration system itself. If you could hear me out, i would like some help in the matter. the highest i would possibly go is the arbitration committee. Over time, more and more of these occurrences have occurred with these members, however as the same situation occurred, more and more members have noticed the punitive bias certain members have grouped.

With what has happened and very limited both in knowledge and time to get back into Misplaced Pages, my options are limited (no matter how many people claim i have options, they are simply not in my situation). i would really like to return to Misplaced Pages, but only if there is an investigation behind the history behind certain recurring members throughout my history in Misplaced Pages, and perhaps some additional comments from members who also noticed this form of bias. If i'm right about this, this could be a major hole in how the administrative action system works.

If you are free and interested to know more, i would be willing to give further details. If you're too busy to take a look at this, it would be good to at least know you are and perhaps point me to someone with arbitration (that i can trust). But i wuld really appreciate it if i can also mention other editors who have noticed similar action. Lucia Black (talk) 08:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jennifer Lawrence naked on Misplaced Pages again

Jimbo, exactly as I predicted, someone has made stolen naked images appear on Misplaced Pages's biography of Jennifer Lawrence again. I don't credit myself with any special powers of prognostication, it was just obvious that this would happen again if we didn't find a way to prevent it. Dozens of female celebrities have recently had stolen private images leaked to the public. Unless we find a way to stop this, we can look forward to it happening over and over. And the remarks on Talk:Jennifer Lawrence show that readers do notice and aren't happy. What are we doing to fix this? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I highly recommend that we move the image that we want in the article onto English Misplaced Pages and link to it locally rather than at Commons. In this way, we can make sure that at least English Misplaced Pages lives up to our ethical standards. This should be the case unless and until Commons does the right thing and protects the image on their end. It is a terrible loophole that something critical on Misplaced Pages is left vulnerable to shenanigans on commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The infobox image has been fully protected on Commons for several days. The other images were fully protected about 12 hours ago, and are set to stay so until April. You know, if someone had just asked a Commons admin to do that.... -mattbuck (Talk) 14:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Why weren't the other images protected after the first time this happened? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

JImbo, that's fine for Jennifer Lawrence, but what about the literally dozens of other celebrities involved in the recent leaks? And what stops naked Jennifer Lawrence pictures showing up on unrelated articles? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Apparently you can just ask Mattbuck to protect them and... problem solved. If that turns out not to be true (I won't prejudge the question) then I recommend moving them to English Misplaced Pages and protecting them here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Post a list of articles whose pictures you want protected at commons:COM:AN and we'll take care of it. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I avoid participating at commons due to the blatant harassment of me that is tolerated there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't stating that you in particular had to do it, but if someone could come up with a list of what articles/images need protecting, that would be helpful. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

What is your suggestion to stop this? --NeilN 14:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Beyond not allowing uploads, there's not really any way to avoid it. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

That's obviously untrue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

???. What's to stop editors from uploading pictures and adding them to wherever they like? There's no magic solution, just like there's no magic wand to wave away vandalism. --NeilN 15:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to ask why we (or commons) allow images to be replaced in this way, without any checks. It is an obvious vulnerability, and we appear to have no mechanism whatsoever available to detect it. Why not? There must be software available that can compare old and new images to see whether they are similar (reverse image searches clearly work that way) and the occasional false positive would be no more problematic than those from our existing anti-text-vandalism bots. And if we can't do that, perhaps we should consider some kind of mechanism for allerting those watching articles using images that the image has been changed - an automated post to the article talk page would be better than nothing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Is there anyway I can help out?Mirror Freak My Guestbook 15:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It seems that if someone can get a list of images in 'Fappening' affected articles to Mattbuck, he'll protect them at commons.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Have we tried to compare the names of the photos that the vandals are uploading? There may be some kind of similarity between them.Mirror Freak My Guestbook 15:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Changing file names is trivial. --NeilN 15:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The vandals are replacing images that are already on Commons, so the filename doesn't even get looked at. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Such a mechanism would be very helpful, Andy. Some easy way to detect that stuff certainly. I mean, I have some 82k pages on my Commons watchlist, which is enough that I can't actually edit the raw watchlist anymore, but even if all those were images it's not even close to 1% of Commons. Most images likely are watched by their dead account uploader and no one else. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Following a suggestion above by AndyTheGrump: could software be used that assesses the similarity between an existing image and a replacement? I suspect most updates are very similar and could be accepted automatically, while radical changes with low similarity could be flagged for attention. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's better than nothing, but for images where there's cropping or things are being moved around for any one of a hundred legitimate reasons, it's going to create a significant number of false positives which will require equally significant amounts of volunteer effort to approve. Nick (talk) 00:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The situation on Commons

The situation at Commons and the situation with civility in English Misplaced Pages are similar in the sense that a Wikimedia community has gotten out of line with WMF guidance. In the case of Commons, it is apparently simply out of control, and maybe WMF needs to intervene. In the case of civility in the English Misplaced Pages, reasonable editors can disagree, but the community is ignoring or disregarding the (nominally overarching) WMF policy. It appears that the WMF can't or won't enforce its own policies. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

How does this have anything to do with the Lawrence situation? --NeilN 15:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Robert, could you please explain quite what you're referring to regarding civility and Commons? -mattbuck (Talk) 15:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I am referring to two different situations that are related only in that two Wikimedia communities behave in ways that are out of line with WMF intent and the intent of Jimbo Wales. The civility issue doesn't have to do with Commons, but with the English Misplaced Pages. WMF and Jimbo Wales favor high standards of civility. The English Misplaced Pages has low standards of civility. Some editors essentially get a pass on civility. Very little can be done about it, because if one of them is blocked, the block is reversed by another admin, and the restoration of a block would be punitive rather than preventive. Jimbo Wales expresses concern about the deteriorating civility situation. There has been discussion of the use of WMF resources to address the issue. I know less about the Commons situation, but it is my understanding in the specific case that a legitimate image of the actress was replaced (vandalism) with a stolen nude image of the actress. Has the Commons editor who replaced the image been blocked or banned from Commons? The two situations are not related, except that they appear to illustrate disconnects between WMF policy or intent and the actual environment in the Wikimedia community. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If you know less about the Commons situation, why comment it was out of control? A quick check would have shown you the editors were blocked with no fuss. --NeilN 16:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for blocking the vandals. I will add that part of my comparison of the two situations is that in both cases Jimbo Wales complains, but either doesn't do anything or doesn't do anything obvious, although he has reserved powers in English Misplaced Pages that he doesn't use. (Does he have reserved powers on Commons?) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: I had nothing to do with blocking the vandals. That was the admins on Commons. Jimbo has the founder flag on all Wikimedia projects. --NeilN 16:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever blocked the vandals. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to take issue with the idea that these people are somehow "Commons vandals", they're vandals that have attacked the entire Wikimedia family of sites, every single Wikimedia Foundation wiki that uses these files was affected. I'm also quite frankly shocked and very disappointed that you think the administrators on Commons wouldn't block these accounts. There's the obvious and very important moral argument about uploading these images, we know the subject asked people not to view them or further distribute them, so respecting the subject's wishes is of course paramount, but there's a boring, practical legal issue - these images are simple copyright violations that have to be deleted, we have a legal and a moral responsibility to make sure that copyright violations are not distributed further, which we do day in, day out by blocking those who upload copyright violations. Nick (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Obvious suggestions

Since @NeilN: asked me, here are some of the obvious suggestions to deal with this problem:

(1) Don't allow brand new accounts to replace existing images.

(2) Images that are uploaded to Commons should be approved by someone before they can be used. I'm not the first person to suggest this, but it doesn't hurt to repeat the suggestion. Why would you let anyone upload random images and not check them for copyright status, personality rights, & etc before you let anyone with an internet connection see and use them? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Things that won't work: protecting images after vandals have already used them or protecting all of the images of Jennifer Lawrence (for example). Any image can be replaced with a naked picture of Jennifer Lawrence. My thanks to the vandal who made that point clear on this very page a few minutes ago. Legit Alternate Account (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The first one would be good (though exceptions should be made for own files), but the second one... it would be like turning on flagged revisions across all of wikipedia. In a way it makes sense, but it goes against the idea that "anyone can edit". -mattbuck (Talk) 22:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't prevent anyone from uploading pictures, it just requires that the pictures are approved before they can be used. How does that go against "anyone can edit"? Legit Alternate Account (talk) 22:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Mattbuck: Any idea how many images are uploaded to Commons every day? --NeilN 22:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is going to be very unscientific, but looking at commons:Special:NewFiles, the first 200 take us back roughly 20mins. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but what percentage of uploaded images are actually used in articles? I did a similarly unscientific check of about two dozen images added 24 hours ago, and found only one used -- a rate of under 5%. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 00:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I think any approval process would have to be at the Misplaced Pages-level (when an unchecked image is added to an article), not at the Commons level, as there's too much incoming trivial stuff to wade through. If approval implies you've checked for copyright violations then that significantly adds to the time (there have been instances where it's taken me ~10 minutes to properly ascertain the copyright status for an image). For a first cut, approval might mean the image isn't obviously inappropriate. This would require software changes which prompts the question, how prevalent is this problem? I know we've had a recent spate of high profile incidents but the addition of inappropriate images (content-wise, not referring to copyright) to articles is something I rarely come across. --NeilN 01:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation's FY2013-14 financial report

WMF released their audited financial report for Fiscal Year 2013-2014 (ending June 30, 2014) yesterday. The pdf for the 14-page report may be found HERE. I was extremely surprised to see on page 9 what appears to be a new line item among the foundation's investments — "mortgage-based securities" — consisting of just over $6 million in value, or about a quarter of the foundation's total investments. Investment in corporate bonds has also nearly doubled over the previous fiscal year, to about $7 million. At the same time, investment in low-risk/low-return treasury securities and municipal bonds has fallen from over $9.6 million to about $7.9 million. I am not a financial analyst, but it appears to me that WMF's asset manager has made a decision to become more aggressive in investment strategy. My question is this: is this an appropriate strategy for a public charity — absorbing additional investment risk in an effort to achieve greater investment returns?

My second question, closely related and from the same page of the report, is this: even with the more aggressive investment strategy, WMF's net income on investments for FY2013-14 is stated as $243,000 on $23.26M invested — barely over 1%. What is the story here? Carrite (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Garfield at the Foundation is better placed to answer specific questions about investment strategy. I will only comment on the high level philosophical question.

I think it can be a mistake to be either too conservative or too aggressive with investment strategy. We certainly do not want the Foundation to take wild risks (speculating on currency or investing the entire reserve in growth stocks or something like that). Nor should we want the Foundation to invest only in extremely low-paying assets.

Here is a typical discussion by nonprofit governance experts: "Good risk management with regard to an investment strategy requires the organization to balance three, sometimes-competing goals: 1) minimizing investment risk, 2) obtaining access to the funds when needed, and 3) earning a reasonable rate of return." Read more here

One important risk management principle is diversification. So having debt instruments of different classes (mortgage-backed, corporate, and government bonds) can reduce overall risk. As we put it: "If the asset values do not move up and down in perfect synchrony, a diversified portfolio will have less risk than the weighted average risk of its constituent assets, and often less risk than the least risky of its constituent." See Diversification (finance) for more details, including (if you have the stamina) some of the mathematics behind it.

Finally, another important principle in longterm asset management involves matching the timing of income to the timing of expenses. In our context, that can mean looking to a diversity of maturities. The risk on a zero coupon 30 year government bond can look substantial in the short run, but does guarantee (nearly so) a particular payoff at a particular time in 30 years. This last is only one example to highlight the principle - not a specific goal for our investment strategy. The principle is that we should have securities which mature in the short term, as well as securities which have longer maturities.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I spent a few years working for an asset management firm. We specialized in asset management for insurance companies which are decidedly not charities, but many of the same principles apply. I'll echo what Jimbo said while differing on literally one word.

One important aspect of asset strategy involves monitoring the timing of income and expenses. The technical term used is "duration" which loosely speaking can be viewed as a timing metric. However, we emphasized duration management as opposed to duration matching. Duration matching (which is what Jimbo described) isn't necessarily the optimum strategy. Some departures from the matching strategy are acceptable. However, the larger context that analyzing the relative timing of income and expenses is exactly the right approach.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• I'm still not getting two things: (1) Why all of the sudden is WMF putting about a quarter of its chips into Mortgage-backed securities (regarded as the economic snake oil that caused the 2008 crisis)?; and (2) Why is net investment income on $23+M invested so paltry, particularly if a move has been made to more higher-risk/greater-reward investments? Who exactly at WMF could explain these things? Carrite (talk) 18:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The investment policy - decided by the board - does bear some looking at. It looks like the results are consistent with blindly following that investment policy, but I would have hoped that the asset managers wouldn't have done something as (removed word) as investing in municipal bonds.

First you have to understand that there are $28M in cash equivalents (something over 6 months spending) that are not included under "investments." But this amount of cash yells out "super-conservative" right from the start. The table on p.9 shows

Fair Value of Investments

• Fair value measurements at June 30, 2014 using significant other observable Description inputs (Level 2)
• Certificates of deposit $ 2,157,598
• Municipal bonds 4,039,187
• Mortgage backed securities 6,032,385
• U.S. Treasury securities 3,875,028
• U.S. Corporate bonds 7,019,079
• Other 137,369
• Total $ 23,260,646

The $4M in municipal bonds is a huge red-flag. People invest in munis, despite the low returns, because the proceeds are exempt from Federal and (usually) state taxes. As a non-profit the WMF doesn't pay federal and state taxes. Somebody is asleep at the wheel on this one.

The $6 M in mortgage backed securities seems a bit high, but since mortgages are a huge part of the fixed income (debt) markets, it would seem reasonable to have some of this debt. Note that I'm not saying "mortgage backed derivative securities" There's no reason for those.

More later. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the discussions below, I just had to remove the word "stupid" above. My apologies. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Insurance companies report investment income including and excluding realized capitals gains. This statement did not say. If we assume that realized cap gains are either not in here, or not large, the question is whether the rate of return is reasonable. The next point to make is that one should not relate the investment income to ending assets. The better measure is average invested assets. Without access to that number, a rough surrogate is the average of the latest and prior years assets. The yield is still low, but that make it 1.2% rather than 1.0%

Now examine yields available (Vanguard is a good source):

1. Mortgage backed securities 1.43%
2. Intermediate term treasuries 1.62%
3. Cal Munies 1.52%
4. GNMA 0.21%
5. CD (not from Vanguard) 1.00%
6. Intermediate Corporates 3.13%

Not knowing the exact mix or securities makes the comparison iffy - I picked intermediate term, it may be that there is a mixture of short and intermediate term. Based on the available yields I would have expected more like 1.4%-1.6% so the 1.2% raises questions, but not the "what the hell are you doing" questions. I also see that they used to own a bunch of TIPS which they sold. TIPS have a very low yield, so depending on when they were sold may affect the yield quite a bit.

However, as already noted, this isn't the right venue for such a discussion, and you aren't really interested in my take, you want to hear from WMF, but having spent years doing this, I couldn't resist.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I share Smallbones' query re Munis. Why?--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Municipal bonds pay a lower rate of return than corporate bonds because their interest is exempt from federal income tax and some state taxes, so that the net return to the investor is comparable to that of corporate bonds. As a 501(c)(3), the WMF does not pay federal income tax and probably does not pay state income tax. The investment in municipal bonds would appear to be a mistake. What is the explanation? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, ask Garfield.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Garfield? Link? Ping? Carrite (talk) 23:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Garfield - to be clear, I'm not brushing you off. While I support fully a diversified investment strategy involving different maturities and different risk categories, I'm curious myself about the municipal bonds decision.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:ANI Comment

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Black Kite (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No, thank you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo...

I hope you'll take this as it's meant--that is, without too much rancor--but I think it's time for you to put up or shut up. I think the problem that (at least some) people are having with your issues with Eric is that, while you're talking about it, you're not actually doing anything about it. If you think Eric should be banned, don't just snark about it on your talk page: actually start a ban discussion on AN, or Arbcom case request, or whatever you think should be done. Because right now, at least from where I'm sitting, all it looks like is that you just want to take potshots at him from the sidelines (and, until this ANI thread, in a place where you forbade him from responding, which is hardly an open discussion), and you don't actually care about fixing this "failure of governance". If you really think this is a problem that needs solving, then it's time to get on your proverbial horse and ride: marshal your various arguments and diffs of evidence and start the discussion in the appropriate place (this talk page ain't it), just like any other editor. Stop talking and start doing. oh, and if you think that "well, I can't start it because I'm Jimbo, and people will think that Jimbo starting a discussion means it won't be fair to Eric"--well, snarking from the sidelines against him isn't much better, so why are you doing that? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Writ Keeper, and I wish you would officially take a stand against EC's continued abuse and construct a ban proposal. He is poisoning our culture by encouraging unfathomable behavior, and an example needs to be made that this is not acceptable. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I would love to have some assistance in doing that. I am hopeful that the Foundation will step in with a strong statement to the effect that abuse of other editors is not acceptable simply due to good or allegedly good content contributions. There is a huge error going on - the idea that good content contributions are so worthwhile that any kind of outrageous longterm abusive behavior is ok. The error is in ignoring what such behavior does to poison the community discourse and drive away good editors.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I would love to see that, too. Jimbo, are you able to facilitate that in any way? Have you asked the Foundation to consider such a statement? StAnselm (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, tonight.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Did Jimbo do something bad?Amanda Smalls 20:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. I did make the point that a particular editor with a long track record of abusive behavior should be banned. Such opinions are welcomed and a normal part of our discourse, but of course if I say it, it has the potential to great Great Drama. But I think that a wider conversation needs to be had about what kind of community we want to be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone else notice Jeniffer Lawrences boob on this page?Amanda Smalls 20:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Boobs removed from Commons. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No they are not. See Amanda Smalls 20:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

mattbuck can you revdel the revisions in question and protect that image? There is one other image vandalized by the same user. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

a particular editor with a long track record of abusive behavior should be banned - you don't need a Foundation statement to do that. Just go. - 94.0.109.71 (talk) 20:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Why do you need assistance? Why does this have to be a Foundation issue? Just do it if you're gonna do it. Stop trying to throw your weight around behind the scenes with statements like "I am hopeful that the Foundation will step in" and step up to the plate yourself. I'm not a lawyer, but it was my impression that this kind of thing, for better or worse, is not the Foundation's job. And y'know what? Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't; maybe consensus is with you or maybe it's against you. Or maybe there is no consensus. But in any of those cases, you should just learn to live with the results like the rest of us, even as you work to change it. Part of "everyone can edit" is that sometimes people you don't like or would rather not work with are allowed to edit, too. That's the path you chose for Misplaced Pages; you should start dealing with the consequences. I'm speaking in metaphor here, but shit or get off the pot, man. If you're going to do something, do it. If you're not, please stop talking about it. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Without a proper mandate, to do so would only invite a silly mega-drama and not actually progress things. I do agree with "shit or get off the pot" - I am just saying that suddenly coming out of a general approach of not personally wielding the ban hammer and trying to build appropriate community institutions to deal with problems would be unwise. Building consensus for a positive change and shepherding through some breakthroughs in longstanding community deadlocks is the right way forward. Assistance appreciated!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, What can I do to help?Amanda Smalls 20:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Stick around. Weigh in. Email the Foundation. Find other good editors and build a movement for an RfC to make this issue clear. Ask probing questions at next ArbCom election and make sure that there are clear statements on whether or not we should tolerate abuse and misogyny. There's no one simple thing, but being here, joining the campaign, will make a world of difference.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• "Find other good editors and build a movement for an RfC" Would that be canvassing? J3Mrs (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Oddly, I just redacted and warned an editor for accusing Eric of misogyny (with, of course, as usual, no evidence whatsoever)... . Black Kite (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

But the last few edits at ANI are a great example of the toxic environment. Not your edit necessarily, but the fact that another personal attack was removed and that edit was reverted. So one personal attack stays and the other is redacted. There should at least be some sort of system and some sort of standards. StAnselm (talk) 21:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but there's a big difference between criticism and diagreement, and accusing someone of being a misogynist (with, as per usual, no evidence whatsoever). That's why I redacted that. Black Kite (talk) 21:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that, but surely "Jimbo is unfit to be the public face of Misplaced Pages" is also a personal attack (given that it is not backed up with evidence, either). StAnselm (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It does sound like hard work, though. Even just sticking around can be tough sometimes. StAnselm (talk) 21:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• If you ever accuse me of misogyny again Jimbo then we'll meet at AN/I. Again. Eric Corbett 21:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll just quote you: "dishonest cunts" "fucking cunts" "if you don't want to be called a cunt don't act like one". I won't even get into "you're plainly an idiot" or the abusive comment that started all this in which you attacked a female editor's intelligence. Evidence matters, and it is overwhelming.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

See, Jimbo, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You say the evidence is overwhelming. So put it in an Arbitration request already. If it's as overwhelming as you say, they'll ban Eric just like you want them to. I know lots of people have little faith in Arbcom, but I don't think they're quite that bad. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

OK, enough. Time to put up or shut up please Jimbo . You can have no problem finding diffs that Eric is occasionally incivil, but if you think you can prove that he is a misogynist I think you will find yourself struggling badly (and the simple use of the "C" word doesn't count - I think you know very well how that discussion went). Black Kite (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The "quotation" above of Eric re "cunt" was not a quotation but really a paraphrase, one presumably to personalize what he wrote to make it seem worse, where no personalization was intended. (Here's the actual quote: "Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one.") What Eric actually wrote is (IMO) good advice for anyone and everyone, it wasn't a threat or condition for a name-call against the editor Eric was in dialoge with, as the paraphrase attempts to make it seem. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You keep saying "allegedly good content contributions". I personally find that offensive, at least acknowledge "good content contributions". Do you have any idea how much work Eric and I put into getting Enid Blyton as a tiny example from a start class article into an FA article for instance. All for free, not a cent. Nobody has to put a thing into wikipedia and you can't expect "professional" level civility on a website which relies entirely on people putting in a lot of work without compensation. If you can't respect the work people do here for free, how can you expect those editors to respect you? Sure, you think Eric is outrageously abusive, but if you bothered to stop and read some of his articles you'd at least understand why so many support him, even if you disagree that his content is worth more than his behaviour.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo's behaviour is far, far worse than anything I've ever done. Eric Corbett 21:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• You don't need a movement to start an RfC. Just start one. There's no need to wait until the next cycle of elections--WP:ARBREQ is right there and still open for business. When I'm telling you to do something about it, I don't mean ban him unilaterally. That is, of course, a bad idea. But what I'm trying to get at here is that the community is deadlocked because we don't agree on what the right thing to do here is. And you do not get to make up our minds for us. If you want an answer to "should Eric be banned", then pose that question to the community, and accept their answer, whatever it may be. You don't need a mandate to do that, and we already have the community institutions for it: either AN for the community as a whole, or Arbcom for a smaller group that doesn't get as easily drowned out in white noise. Neither of those institutions are perfect--far from it--but they're what we have. Use them. Is there gonna be a lot of drama? Undoubtedly. You seem to think it's worth the drama, though, so just suck it up and get to it.

  And if you don't want to do that? Fine. But then you should stop talking about Eric in the meantime. You've made your opinion eminently clear already. If you're not interested in seeing if that opinion stands up to the community, stop voicing it. Because no, it's not nice to continually say that someone should be banned. Being banned is not a nice thing. We need to be open about such discussions, but you're not really discussing it, are you? A real discussion would take place on AN or somewhere similar; neutral ground where such discussion actually has the potential to reach a constructive conclusion, whichever way it turns. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, I will appreciate assistance in that. I'm just curious - what's your opinion. Should we be the kind of community where comments like ""dishonest cunts" "fucking cunts" "if you don't want to be called a cunt don't act like one" should be accepted and ignored, no matter what the human cost? I don't think so. I think the biggest detriment to the encyclopedia's quality is toxic behavior like that. It's time to take a stand, and I hope you will support me in that. Without support from you, and others, and the Foundation, there is no hope and we'll go down the path of other communities which succumbed to trolling.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Substitute cunt for fool. Is that ok? The majority of EC's utterance of "cunt" are clealry used that way. Calling someone a cunt can be a serious PA. However it's like porn. You know it when you see it._Two kinds of pork_Bacon|

• It's rather one-sided though, isn't it. Jimbo speaks and his acolytes fall to their knees, Who would have the balls to block Jimbo? I on the other hand am easily blocked. Eric Corbett 21:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  The only reason that you haven't already been banned is your acolytes, though I prefer the term sycophants. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It should be one-sided, and of course it is. The point is that I don't go around abusing people, calling them misogynist terms like "cunt" and using sexist terminology like "who would have the balls to block Jimbo". That kind of behavior is simply unacceptable and it's high time that we said so clearly and without regret.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If "cunt" is a misogynist word, why do we have WP:DICK? More to the point, I think you know very well that in many countries "cunt" is not used in that fashion, and the UK is one of them. Black Kite (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You forget that I live in the UK, and "cunt" is considered a personal attack here as it is anywhere. It is not at all acceptable to call people names (of whatever provenance) at Misplaced Pages, and the apologetics for abuse must stop.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a personal attack, no-one is disputing that, but you're claiming it's a misogynist one. If I do something stupid at work, I'm just as likely as anyone else to be called a "stupid cunt" regardless of my genitalia. Would you claim that being called a "dickhead" is a misandrist attack? Black Kite (talk) 21:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Have you ventured into Council house territory before? I can assure you cunt is a well established vernacular.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 22:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no longer WP:DICK. There is "Don't be a jerk" 70.171.253.242 (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you claim that Eric is responsible for all these editors leaving without providing diffs, even when Giano asked for them to indicate Eric is causing half the community to walk out. But take that one article, one of hundreds Eric has contributed to. Nearly 30,000 hits a month. The work that went into that benefits 30,000 people a month, people generally who could not give a monkey's right testicle how it got there and how civil the editor/s who wrote it out. In one year that's 360,000 people, in ten years that's 36 fricking million people benefiting from the work put into that one article. Add up all the FAs and GAs he has written and reviewed and in ten years this work is benefiting hundreds of millions of people. Do you see now why we think this is more valuable to us than if he didn't exist on here? We lose a contributor like this, "outrageously uncivil" or not, and that's a loss to that many readers over ten years which you don't seem to care about. Is this an encyclopedia or not? What really matters here? Can you really expect exemplary behaviour from everybody given the lack of compensation for the blood, sweat, and tears put into the project for free? Honestly, I'd rather not see this bad blood on here between the two of you and would rather see Eric getting on editing happily, but at least look at the other side of the argument... What's more important. FA quality work benefiting millions upon millions of people globally or one editor being mildly offended by being called a "dishonest cunt". Put it in perspective. What really matters here? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, are you suggesting that as editors accumulate contributions they also accumulate amnesty regarding atrocious behavior? Is that all one needs to do is improve an article that gets lots of hits then they can all people "cunts"? Rationalobserver (talk) 21:35, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

What you haven't accounted for is the uncountable (because they aren't here to count) number of women and thoughtful kind contributors who have been driven away by a toxic environment in which calling people 'cunt' and similar is considered defensible. What diffs can I show to show you the people who don't edit because we tolerate such? I could show you plenty of diffs of outrageous behavior - but I don't think you are asking for that because you know and (I think) acknowledge that it's true. What you are asking for is evidence that it matters. The only evidence I could possibly give is that during the era when I personally banned people for much less than that, we enjoyed spectacular growth in contributors in no small part because finally, thankfully, people found a place of fun, of love, of lightness, of intellectual joy, rather than the sexist outrageous insult that is rampant online. What really counts is the hundreds of millions of pageviews on art

Yes, we have plenty of editors here who are both productive and "civil" by your standards, but everybody is different. Don't all dedicated contributors count? Couldn't some of the things Eric says be dealt with with less drama and comments?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the block button tends to reduce drama quickly and firmly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? I'm glad you've found it so. Bishonen | talk 23:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC).

I think it would be better to say that blocking useless editors tends to reduce drama. Looking at Eric Corbetts, or for that matter my block log and one can see that the blocks were always overturned way before they expired. There has to be another approach than a block.--MONGO 01:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The smugness behind Jimbo's comment turns my stomach. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The number of hits an editor gets at their articles is, or should be, irrelevant. The community does not have one set of standards for prolific contributors and another for everybody else, nor is that a good idea. In fact, it's an absolutely terrible idea. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

"The most fundamental problem of politics... is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness" - Henry Kissinger --Epipelagic (talk) 21:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• (in response to Jimbo asking me what my own opinions are) Honestly, Jimbo? I'm reserving judgement until I see the evidence. Historically, I've been more in favor of Eric than not; it seems to me that he does tend to get provoked into saying the things he does. And after all, he does come from a different culture than I do, and who am I to judge him? Lately, though, I've been starting to think that respect for others' cultures needs to be a two-way street, and that, while we should be understanding when someone says something that we find offensive, they in turn should be understanding when we say it's offensive, and at least make an effort to change their patterns. Eric doesn't do the latter, no question. So I see sense in both sides these days; much would depend on the evidence (which must necessarily include context, not just sound bites).

  But like I say, who am I? I'm Jean Valjean! My voice is only important as a single member of the entire community's; I don't get to make calls about whether he should or shouldn't be banned, admin, 'crat, or otherwise. And neither do you, founder notwithstanding. It's the community's decision and nobody else's, and if you insist on talking about it, I wish you would do so in a venue where the community can opine. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are surprised that I ask for your opinion - it does count. I fail to see how he's been provoked. What culture do you imagine he comes from where nasty name calling is accepted? The UK? I live here, and that's not what culture is like here at all - nor anywhere.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• There is a fantastic NLCS game 3 taking place right now Jim. Why don't you watch the last half instead of responding here for a while?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 21:51, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you say that Eric is responsible for the driving away female contributors by calling people cunts, but genuinely my experience of him and his talk page stalkers is that his involvement in the project has actually encouraged collaboration with quite a few decent editors here and there are many female editors here who've been grateful for his involvement and frequently turn up to thank him. Have you seen this? He honestly seems to attract female editors and article collaboration with them rather than repel them. There are many textbook civil editors on wikiepdia who regularly turn up on Eric's talk page and thank him for assistance and are willing to overlook anything he might say and see the bigger picture. Your view of Eric is entirely dominated by those negative comments and drama which you witness without having first hand experience of seeing that actually a lot of the time he has a way of actually increasing collaboration and improving content and mutual respect between editors if he is approached in the right way. Sure, I'd rather Eric kept what he thinks to himself at times like most of us do here to simply avoid the reaction, but I do think it's bleeding obvious that the current way of dealing with it is not working and creates more problems than what we being with. Blocks tend to inflame the situation more, I'm not sure why you think that is the solution, in fact I'm pretty sure a few weeks ago you said that abolishing civility blocks was a good idea to reduce the drama and backlash. OK you block Eric for calling somebody something, what about the huge backlash and admin circus act which follows. Is this really dealing with the actual problem, the root of it?? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Luis Suarez is a great footballer who scores brilliant goals and helps other players score great goals. But when he goes and bites someone, or stamps on them, or abuses them, no-one says he should be excused because of that. He gets a ban, for violence and for bringing the game into disrepute, and sometimes he (sort of) apologises. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Surely, Mr Wales, you must realise the irony of using the WMF in this way to further a (as yet unsubstantiated) personal vendetta against an individual whose work (and resulting click-through, views and donations) pays the salaries of those very same WMF staff? WMF isn't simply gifted funds because of the excellent governance arrangements it has in place (which you admit have failed anyway) - content drives donations. I have no problem with your having personal disagreements with others but the petulant manner in which you have gone about fighting this particular battle is unbecoming. Respect for you and this project is diminished by your conduct, in this instance, not that of Mr Corbett. You dislike Mr Corbett and his style (which is perfectly fine) but you clearly haven't yet gathered enough evidence to come even close to substantiating your claim that he is a misogynist or that he is driving editors from this project. I wonder if the WMF would assist me in making a case against those editors far worse, far more divisive and far more toxic than Mr Corbett could ever be? I think not. St★lwart 22:16, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no irony. There is no vendetta. The facts are very well substantiated - I have given exact quotes which no one denies. And my clear and obviously correct point is that his behavior is destructive to Misplaced Pages because it costs us good contributors who are not willing to put up with his abuse. Content absolutely does drive donations, which is why it is critical for us to get rid of editors who drive way good content contributors through abusive behavior. The case for his behavior being destructive is absolutely clear, unless you really do think it is ok to call people 'cunt' and to attack the intelligence of other contributors in the course of what should be routine editing. What more evidence do you need?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, you're talking a big game here. Gather up your evidence--your actual evidence, not just assertions--and walk the talk. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 23:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I have given exact quotes which no one denies. Wrong. (See above.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Mr Wales, you've given "exact quotes" that amount to nor more "disruption" or "destruction" than the average Australian would experience on a daily basis. What you've described amounts to nor more than routine playground vernacular. You'd have a tough time getting an Australian high school student reprimanded for that sort of language, let alone suspended. Yet here it suggests "misogyny", a failure of governance and disruption that must be stamped out. What say you of the systematic gaming, bullying and unfounded accusations used by others on a daily basis to actually drive people from this project? People you actively support and encourage while those using "bad words" suffer the full force of the WMF they fund? There is no irony? St★lwart 00:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• I've really had quite enough of this. Jimbo Wales is a . Now block me. Eric Corbett
• Can we just block Eric now and be done with all of this drama? There are clearly two sides to this and I feel editors have had enough of Eric's un-civility and attitude from remarks he makes in his edit summaries to making snide remarks on his talk-page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  Doctor Freud might suggest that Eric has an unhealthy relationship with Misplaced Pages, and he is subconsciously trying to justify his own banning, which would serve his persecution and messiah complexes. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  I don't think Jimbo needs evidence here, all you have to do is see Eric's edits over time. Take a dive through and im sure you will be more than convinced. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Can we just block Jimbo now and be done with all of this drama? There are clearly two sides to this and I feel editors have had enough of Jimbo's un-civility and attitude from remarks he makes in his edit summaries to making snide remarks on his talk-page. LHM 23:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  No, the reasoning behind it is that Eric has had a long history of this with multiple editors, I can agree that Jimbo should not have been feeding into it but do not see a reason for a block on that side. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  No, Kk87, I don't think you quite understand what's going on here. Jimbo's history of antagonism toward some of the very best content creators we have is quite long: Giano and Bishonen are a couple more, in addition to Eric Corbett. This project would be better off if Jimbo left it, never returned, and this page was deleted and salted. LHM 23:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

  Lith I just want to say that there is already an arbcom case involving Eric's conduct here with another issue: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force as for the others I cant speak for them. its one thing piling up on top of another that is a bad trend here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm late to this argument but I don't see Jimbo abusing people like this Eric person. Took a look through his user contribution page since 1 July and noted the following:

Have you got nothing better to do? Why not try writing an article yourself? Or what about taking a long walk off a short pier?
Let's face the facts. You're an incompetent editor determined for whatever reason to add unnecessary clutter to an article that you couldn't have written even in your dreams. Do you understand now?
Well think again.
That might be a first. Have you ever significantly improved anything?
When did you start reasoning?
I appear to have overestimated you Alfie; obviously you can't read.
Who cares what the article says? Haven't you got anything better to do?
Only in your rather ill-informed opinion.
I'm annoyed that you're wasting my time.
Bloodofox is even more incompetent than you are, so his displeasure is of no consequence to me, or I dare say Sagaciousphil either.
Unlike you I do not consider myself to be a superior source to the OED
It's you that's simple.
You really are a tedious twat.
I learned years ago that arguing with a fool make you the greater fool.
Waiting to see if this gets blanked. Nyth83 (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That is evidence right there, yet some turn their heads because of friendship. if this were by any new editor I am sure they would be blocked by now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Jimmy, I think this discussion raises something more fundamental. This is no longer your website—you started it, yes, but it has grown beyond your control; beyond he control of any individual. The day-to-day running of the project is down to the administrators, who are appointed by the community to serve the community, and when administrators disagree, we have the arbitration committee. You have, wisely, in recent years (explicitly or implicitly) adopted a role closer to that of a constitutional monarch, a ceremonial figurehead, than that of a leader. Your talk page has long been used as a forum for discussion of all sorts of issues. At times, it has been a productive venue and a good place to raise general issues that don't being elsewhere. But recently, your comments have produced significantly more heat than light. And that is because you have, in my opinion, departed from your role as a constitutional monarch; constitutional monarchs have a right to be informed, to advise and to warn, and they occupy an incredibly rare and incredibly special position in the governance of their nation. But to continue occupy that position, and to discharge its duties effectively, the constitutional monarch has to remain above the fray, out of the day-to-day running of the nation, and somewhat detached (some might even say aloof) from the coal face. That means that they do not get to use their position to advocate for their preferred solution to the problems of the age, they do not act as though they are above their nation's laws (in our case, WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:POLEMIC, and where the community they serve is divided they should be extremely careful not to exacerbate those divisions. If the monarch fails to discharge those responsibilities, one of two things happens—the monarch abdicates, or a constitutional crisis ensues which probably results in the abolition of the monarchy in its entirety, without even a ceremonial or traditional role. So I am asking you, because I care deeply about this project and I believe that you are inflicting wounds on this community which impair it from carrying out its functions, which are quite simple: to write and maintain an encyclopaedia. Everything which does not contribute to the fulfilment of that function is a distraction. Editors who spend the majority of their Misplaced Pages time on talk pages, noticeboards, and other fora dedicated to meta aspects of the project rather than writing or maintaining the encyclopaedia are a problem and sooner or later usually end up blocked or banned. Jimmy, you need to choose whether you want to accept the responsibilities of the role you have chosen (and thus, to put it bluntly, hold your tongue, especially when expressing your opinion would exacerbate deep divisions within the community), or you need to abdicate and behave like any other editor, subject to the same rules. The middle ground is a constitutional crisis, which will only distract further from the encyclopaedia and thus is not in anyone's best interest. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:48, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  I'm thinking Cincinnatus is needed on occasion. Not that I would support Jimbo blocking any editors himself, least of all Eric Corbett or little ole me for that mattter.--MONGO 01:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments for Jimbo et al.

First, I agree with User:WritKeeper that it is time for Jimbo to put up or shut up. Jimbo: Please stop making snarky comments as if there was nothing else that you can do. I understand that you don't want to use your reserved power to ban users. However, when you don’t use that reserved power and don’t use any of the options available to general editors, you aren’t exercising leadership. What you can do, yourself, without the need for an RFC or for WMF action, is to go to the ArbCom. You can ask them to open a case against any editor or editors that you think are poisoning the culture of the English Misplaced Pages. (Also, you can present evidence in an open case.) If you really think that a particular editor is a negative to Misplaced Pages, ask the ArbCom to act. You created the ArbCom so that you wouldn’t have to ban users yourself; you can ask them to ban a user. The ArbCom has, in at least one case, banned an abusive content creator. Don’t just complain. Please, do something or be quiet. (The editor in question has been blocked for 48 hours, but the block will expire, and doesn’t take the place of requesting arbitration.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, don’t just complain about Commons. If it is as bad as you say, get the WMF to do something about it rather than just holding your nose and ignoring it. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Second, Jimbo mentioned getting a statement from the WMF and mentioned the possibility of an RFC. I have previously suggested that the WMF should conduct a survey of editors on civility enforcement and other issues. An RFC is the standard Misplaced Pages method for surveying active editors. (I had suggested a statistical survey including both active editors and former editors, but an RFC is a valid approach.) However, there is no need to wait for an RFC (or a statistical survey) to run its course or for the WMF to issue a statement to request arbitration. The two processes can run in parallel. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Third, the WMF could also review the governance and civility enforcement process, which is seriously flawed in at least two respects. The first problem has to do with blocks. Because a block can be lifted by any administrator, and because policy is that blocks are preventive rather than punitive, civility blocks are short-lived. Once any administrator lifts the block, further discussion of its appropriateness is mooted because there is nothing left to discuss. Should there be a more coordinated process for review of blocks? Should the arbitrary lifting of blocks be treated as wheel warring? Should blocks sometimes be punitive? The second problem is that “the community” at the noticeboards is not an effective mechanism for dealing with divisive users or divisive issues. Does “the community” at the noticeboards even represent the larger community of editors? Is some sort of governance reform needed? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm no prude but.

Can someone remove the crotch shot pic?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 21:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. But yes.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed the 'Talk Page Stalker' template. Images were being added to that then appearing on this page. AnonNep (talk) 21:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the image is now protected locally and at commons, I've restored the template. Tutelary (talk) 22:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Template protected for autoconfirmed users only. User adding explicit pics was redlink name not IP. If it happens again someone just remove Misplaced Pages:TPS/banner (and surrounding double brackets) from top of this page. AnonNep (talk) 22:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Respect

Hey Jimbo. I've only been an active editor for a few months, and unfortunately I've already witnessed exchanges that are remarkable in their ferocity and disregard for others' feelings. All too often, Wikipedians seem to lose sight of the issues at hand and resort to personal attacks and displays of disrespect in surprisingly petty matters.

What I find particularly interesting is that this behavior would not be tolerated in other online communities I've been a part of, and none of these communities had a formal process to deal with unwanted behavior like Misplaced Pages does. It got me thinking about what constitutes respect in those communities and how it is enforced. As far as I can tell, respect is defined by the values that everyone in the community shares; these values seem to be unwritten, but emergent in every member's behavior. And they are enforced by individual members of the community acting on their personal values. When one member of the community disrespects another, members of the healthiest communities immediately step up in plain site to say that's not what the community is about. Showing disrespect only puts the community's respect for that member on the line. In contrast, disrespect seems to be ignored- and sometimes encouraged- by Wikipedians who are not on the receiving end or addressed after the fact in committees and administrative boards. I think the silence sends a clear message to newcomers about what they are considering being a part of, and it's hardly flattering.

I'm curious what you think about respect within the Wikipediaverse. As a community, do we share the values that would add up to basic respect for others in most other communities? Are such values not relevant to our community, because Misplaced Pages is about building an online encyclopedia and not giving people warm fuzzies? It seems like iour values would run deeper than that. Or is it possible that Wikipedians have grown complacent and won't consistently stick up for these values because they've seen them violated so many times? And the $1m question: how can we promote respect in the community before we have to worry about enforcing it? Best. -wʃʃʍ- 22:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Your comments and questions are very wise. I have much to say about them.

First, our community has fundamental values that are very strong traditions and are deeply opposed to personal attacks and misogyny and so on. But they are also very fundamentally about hearing people out, even people who are not mainstream nor being kind and thoughtful. Both of these traditions are valid and have value, but they are also in tension. We don't want to be a community that is a police state where any form of dissent gets you blocks, but neither do we want to be some kind of 'radical free speech zone' where the most insulting and abusive behavior is tolerated.

Second, until a certain point in time, I personally made decisions to "thread the needle". My judgments were far from perfect - no human being could be perfect. A better approach was apparent and we took it - move that decision making into the community, building institutions over time to make wise decisions. (Knowing full well, of course, that institutions make errors too.)

Finally, here we are today. My view is that much of what we do still works remarkably well. But we have an increasingly hard time dealing with certain types of incredibly destructive behavior from people who also do good content work (or allegedly do good content work). The view - which you can see here in tonight's discussion - is that if someone can write featured articles that have a high number of pageviews, we should accept astonishing abuse, such as calling people "cunt" or "idiot". And - to be at least a bit more complete in my remarks - the behaviors are not just random minor violations of "political correctness" but ongoing thoroughly and unapologetically abuse behaviors justified by people (particularly women, I'm afraid) "deserving it".

I think this is fixable. But I think it requires an open and frank discussion, and a rallying call from seriously good editors who are producing good content but who think that we should *also* be working to welcome hundreds of *new* editors who are seriously good and also not jerks.

So I agree with you - "the silence sends a clear message to newcomers" - and I won't take part in that silence. I think we need to be vocal and clear - abusive editors will no longer be tolerated.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

(a) respect has to be earnt not demanded (b) if I had workers who spent all day every day at the water cooler complaining rather than doing any owrk they wouldn't be employed for long either. Jimbo, I presume you did mathematics to more than an elementary school level, why not look at Erics last 500 (or 100, 200 whatever) contribs and figure out what percentage are problematic or non constructive? And for fun, maybe comapre it with some other civility warriors? Or wllm or whoever? cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

You raise an interesting question - how to measure the damaging impact of abuse. I respectfully submit that counting percentages of edits that contain abuse is not a very valid way to go about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I meant at least quantifying or appraising the data before firing off an opinion Jimbo - this place is full of folks making assumptions and assertions without actually checking facts. You appear to be saying you'd trust your own impressions rather than looking at data. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This business about page views earning leeway is nonsense, and I seriously doubt that "Eric's articles" get the most views anyway. But if page views earned you Wikipoints that could be redeemed as an indulgence, the main editors of George Clooney could do no wrong, but I doubt they go about the project calling people "cunts" and "idiots" and suggesting that their allegedly superior intelligence gives them license to do so, and I doubt they would get away with that if they did. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, I was just having this same conversation on FB this morning, and this seemed pretty apropos:

"I'm sure there's a feedback loop that comes into play sometimes too. When the larger culture starts noticing that a word is often associated with hurtful consequences, thoughtful people stop using it casually. The people who are left using it are the ones are more likely to be using it hurtfully to begin with - so the word becomes more strongly negative. The word 'fag' has definitely followed this trajectory on college campuses in the US. Earlier, many of its usage tokens meant just 'casual, nonspecific insult to masculinity'. Now, if someone uses it, you know they're an asshole."

—Neotarf (talk) 23:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Forget about pageviews as most of my work is on esoteric stuff too. Fact is that we are a volunteer project not an elite-recruitment agency and many of us here have faults one way or the other. I have written some thoughts on it at User:Casliber/Crossroads (very incomplete!) - we are at a point where we need all hands on deck to move wikipedia up in terms of reliability and "encyclopedic-ness" for lack of a better word. Blithe talk of the encyclopedia writing itself or just waiting for the next wave of newcomers to pick up is naive at best and could be catastrophic at worst. This is not 2005. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I should add - I've written 100 featured articles, plenty of good articles and been involved in various wikiprojects, stub contests, core contests and DYK. I've been elected as an arbitrator twice and nearly half of my 100,000+ edits are namespace. I've been published in (and reviewed papers for) peer-reviewed journals and have tertiary qualifications. I've spent years in all these areas looking at the content we produce over time, who writes it and how it is developing. I worry that pursuing this is one step closer to killing the goose laid the golden egg. I hope for all our sakes that I am wrong but don't say you weren't told. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You are starting to tear this encyclopedia apart Jimbo, encouraging much more serious toxic elements with your light, love and ban campaign. Please step back and reflect on what you are actually doing. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

@Epipelagic: I hate to break it to you but not everyone here sees Jimbo acting in bad faith. What I do see are sides forming if they haven't already something the Wikimedia foundation needs to look into . - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that any reasonable editor can possibly argue that EC's repeated misconduct isn't a cancer on the project, as their latest outburst demonstrates. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

An image of you and your words - deletion nom @ Commons.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales

Saffron Blaze (talk) 22:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

According to a reliable source, a commons admin (@Russavia:) made a corrupt offer to write a Misplaced Pages entry about an artist who does "penis paintings" as follows "I'm going to write a Misplaced Pages article about you, he said, and you penis-paint the face of Jimmy Wales, the cofounder of the largest and most influential encyclopedia in the world. The painting would then be added to the article." Source. Until that admin is blocked, either by the community at commons, or the Foundation, for harassment, and the work deleted then I have very little interest in responding to inquiries at commons.

I should be clear - the problem is not the abuse of me, but the toxic and juvenile environment at Commons. I have never failed in 30 seconds of looking to find a horrifying BLP violation at commons of a photo of an identifiable woman engaged in sexual activity with highly questionable provenance (for example a deleted flickr account). Every time (including tonight) that I go there hoping to see improvement, I am disappointed. And I think that as long as we tolerate it and don't bounce some very bad admins, we will not solve the problem.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

This image seems to be based on a slide from the Wikimania civility speech of August 2014, which I took the liberty of making a transcript of at User talk:Neotarf/Jimbo civility speech transcript. Unfortunately the location of the audio seems to keep moving around and currently I have it at which I can't even sign in to now. I would trust this has all been posted to Meta by now, so maybe someone who knows how to find this easily would provide the location, which would probably solve the copyright mystery at Commons as well. —Neotarf (talk) 23:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Imagine a world where I am too important to respond to anything. There are people who actually collaborated on commons and not just disparage these people defining them as toxic and juveniles, paradoxically when your decision not to respond even more juvenile, to say, like a child. --Wilfredor (talk) 01:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

In review

(1) Drama-monger Lightbreather does the I-quit-I-quit-I-quit-Eric-made-me-do-it shimmy. (2) The I Hate Eric gang shakes. (3) Jimmy Wales pops in with a gratuitous comment about a guy he has tossed from this page rather than going to ArbCom and offering legitimate testimony against him. (4) Eric, who never once in his entire fucking life failed to take the bait, takes the bait. (5) The I Hate Eric chorus pokes him with a stick. (6) Jimmy chips some more. (7) Eric blows his top and immolates himself. Very nice work building an encyclopedia, all of you!!! —Tim Davenport /// Carrite (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

On the bright side, User:Chillum had the good sense to not make it an indefinite block, so we have a better chance of avoiding the long AN/I thread, the drama and "popcorn" comments by onlookers, the early unblock by a supporting admin, more drama over that, a couple admin retirements, etc. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's hope. Someone find some wood.--v/r - TP 01:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I had to step away from that discussion myself--and take the Editor Retention page off my watchlist. —Neotarf (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm saddened, that my keep calm advice (at Retention) to fellow editors, hasn't been heeded :( GoodDay (talk) 01:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)