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Media Viewer RfC Question 1

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We have a previous RfC consensus that Media Viewer should be default off. That RfC was never implemented due to the Superprotect controversy and a WMF Community Consultation process on Media Viewer. That community consultation process has ended and the outcome can be viewed here. I think it is time to review that outcome and determine whether we still want Media Viewer to be disabled by default. Alsee (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

(Note: There is a second question further down the page.) Alsee (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Question One. Should we reaffirm and implement the previous RfC: WP:Media_Viewer/June_2014_RfC#Consensus.2Fdisapproval_has_been_established There is a clear consensus that the Media Viewer should be disabled by default for both logged-in (section link) and non-logged-in users (section link).

Support (Media Viewer RfC Question 1)

1. SUPPORT as RfC author. The WMF's Community Consultation Process on Media Viewer resolved essentially none of the objections raised in the previous RfC. I believe our original image page is better than Media Viewer. Alsee (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Support Obviously nothing has changed, the default should still be off unless specified by editors (i.e. if an editor wants the mediaviewer used for galleries, etc). Not that it matters. I have zero confidence in the WMF's respect for consensus at this point. 0x0077BE 16:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Support as the attribution problem has still not been sufficiently addressed. This is a show stopper. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC) P.S. I think that is an inherently difficult problem, take File:Carentan Église Notre Dame Vitrail Baie 07 2014 08 24.jpg as example with a very complex copyright case which cannot be represented in any simplified manner.
4. Support. Unless the consensus has changed, we should not allow the WMF to continue to avoid the issue of enablement, and at any rate we should not leave them with the impression of acquiescence. BethNaught (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
5. Support - I still prefer the old one and probably always will, - At the end of the day the community decided it should be off, Period. –Davey2010 • (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
6. Per AFBorchert.--Aschmidt (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
7. Support, although this wasn't needed; community consensus has already been formed to disable it. Consensus-changing attempts are appropriate, but that would be the only reason for having such a discussion. Let me remind the closer that "no consensus" defaults to pre-discussion, which is unambiguously "off". Nyttend (talk) 19:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
8. Support: The most frequent piece of feedback that WMF removed was "turn this to opt-in" and the WMF intentionally and purposefully ignored all such feedback . Since the consultation was a sham, I see no reason to wait for any results.—Kww(talk) 20:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
9. Support. It seems to me to be common sense that WMF should care what the editing community says. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
10. Support. It's inherently inferior to the existing file page, and the community spoke after due examination of the two. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
11. Support. I don't know why we are having this discussion again. We already know that 1 a large majority of editors prefer the pre-existing system, and 2 WMF people ignore and misrepresent our views. Maproom (talk) 21:46, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
12. SUPPORT. It has already been demonstrated that a majority of the community do not like or want the new Media Viewer, so continuing to debate the subject only proves that WMF does not really care what the community thinks, and will keep asking the question until they get the answer they want. To repeat what I (and many others) have already said: The use of this new Media Viewer should be "Opt-IN" only -- it should never be on by default for anyone. FireHorse (talk) 22:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
13. Support. Looks like they made a prototype () and I don't see anything important that has changed. The page seems to imply (meta:Special:PermanentLink/9840243 - "Screenshot of the Media Viewer's new design prototype") that that's how things will look. And we know that is what has been rejected. I doubt there is much point in giving WMF more time - it is pretty clear that they are not going to do anything else with it. Also, "Consensus can change" - if a miracle happens and they create something good, we can simply change our minds. But let's let them develop something good first and deploy it afterwards, not vice versa... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
14. Support BUT - I want that Media Viewer on Commons On Commons should be left there. It is a great help on commons, but there is no text there. Please do not disable it on Commons. On Wiki it is kind of irritating. Hafspajen (talk) 23:24, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
15. Support. WP:Consensus can change, but it is up to someone else - and WMF is certainly invited to do so - to make a new RfC to see if that's the case. Until then, we have a consensus, and it needs to be implemented properly. VanIsaac_WS 00:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
16. Support. Absolutely. Nothing but an irritant (on the plus side, though, I must say that its combination with the typography change makes it impossible for me to ever forget to log in). Double sharp (talk) 01:33, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
17. Support. Even the most optimistic reading of recent poll data, which shows that a plurality of users find media viewer userful for viewing images, only had 49% choosing that option. Note that the question is not "Is Media Viewer better than previous image pages", but is it useful for viewing images. If less than half, or even half, or even only two thirds of people find that it is useful in serving it's main purpose, that is to view images, then it is seriously unready to be the default. If only 50% of people that used a car found it "useful for getting from place to place" it would be seen as a lemon, but somehow 49% of people finding media viewer "useful for viewing images" is a good thing. The performance of the media viewing is still seriously lacking on underpowered hardware and older browsers that many people are forced to use, and the unlabeled icons are extremely difficult to figure out for a casual user of the site that doesn't want to have to learn a new UI just to view the details on an image. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE) 02:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
18. Support. I understand the need to make images easier to view, but I'm not convinced that MediaViewer is significantly better than the existing system at even that. And, as almost everyone can agree, it is far worse for viewing and editing image descriptions. As a reader of news websites, I'm not a huge fan of images that, when you click on them, occupy the whole screen against a black background. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
19. Support. — al-Shimoni (talk) 03:45, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
20. Support: All the reasons above, my own gripe is that not only does it make editing a pain, and is hard to turn off, it also is SLOW; I can stream video faster than load a photo on the theing. Montanabw 04:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
21. SUPPORT Assuming lowly anonymous readers are allowed to vote. MediaViewer is still an ugly, intrusive, invasive kludge. It does _nothing_ better than the old Wikimedia Commons webpage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.0.55 (talk) 01:50, 6 October 2014
22. Support: Even after all the changes that have been made Media Viewer is a a clear step backwards in functionality, usability, and performance. Despite the WMF's assertion that this is a feature for the so-called "readers", every IP that chimed in was against keeping Media Viewer enabled by default. The WMF's own survey showed that fewer than 50% of English-speaking respondents who never edit found Media Viewer useful for its intended purpose. CONEXCEPT does not apply as the obvious intent of the policy was to check actions that went against the philosophy of the movement or that presented technical issues. Neither apply. For all all the aforementioned reasons, the RfC should be affirmed and Media Viewer should be returned to opt-in by default. Furthermore, if the WMF refuses to implement this consensus, I support administrators taking any technical or legal actions to make sure the consensus is in fact implemented. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 06:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

    Not sure where you're getting your statistics, but they don't seem to agree with the ones I've seen, which show over 60% approval by English readers. Kaldari (talk) 07:24, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

    The 60% number is if you cherry pick the last two weeks of the survey, where responses trickled down to nothing. I was rather disappointed to see the Multimedia team be so dishonest with their data. I can't find the spreadsheet at the moment with the final results, but the cumulative reader approval rate over the whole survey was a smidgen below 50% at that time. I seem to remember looking very hard for it because the Multimedia team didn't post it in an obvious place. The last full results I can find right now puts reader approval at 37% in English, but I know I saw a similar spreadsheet that had the final results. I've removed your plots because they're misleading. The English reader plot only shows the last two weeks. The two global plots predate the English Misplaced Pages rollout and don't represent the opinions of readers and editors of the English Misplaced Pages. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 08:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

    Discussion of the statistics is worthy of an entire section. Please take it to the discussion area. This is a bad place to debate what numbers are valid and what numbers are misleading.

    Notice: Three images added by Kaldari were removed by 98.207.91.246. I consider it it entirely appropriate to remove images from this section. The diff and images can be viewed here. Alsee (talk) 10:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

23. Support--Oursana (talk) 09:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
24. support -jkb- (talk) 09:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
25. Support Ealdgyth - Talk 12:35, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
26. Support: Awful tool, unwanted, unwarranted and a technically backwards step that worsens the experience for editors, whether logged in or not. - SchroCat (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

27. Support. I think that MediaViewer is promising—in the long term it can become a useful functionality. However, it's not ready. In particular, it does not reliably render information from the file pages in ways that are easily predictable, and when it fails, it fails in ways that disadvantage the reader—especially the casual reader who may not know about the old-style file description pages, which are problematically obscured in its design (a "More details" button does not suffice). This disadvantage comes about because the underlying functionality—semantic file metadata—isn't properly available yet (as far as I know). Redesigns will not solve that fundamental problem. My distaste for lightboxes means I don't plan to ever enable MediaViewer personally, but I would like to be able to support its use by default. However, I can't support it until those problems are fixed.

    I am separately disappointed with the community for being oppositional to the WMF, and the WMF for the shameful "superprotect" fiasco. The community and WMF need to work together. The WMF needs humility—if the community says no, that should be enough to shelve a feature, despite the time and money and emotions invested in it. On the other side of the coin, the community needs to trust the WMF's good faith, because the situation in which the WMF isn't trusted by the community is nothing short of toxic. Hopefully this RfC will help smooth both over. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 13:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

28. Support The ignorance from the WMF regarding the valid RfCs from enwiki and dewiki and corresponding bug reports is rather telling and I doubt that they will respect them now. However, substandard software with which the Foundation knowingly supports license violations is not something that should be ignored, no matter how bad the relationship with the editorial communities. Please fix this now, review your senior staff's behaviour and competence (or rather lack thereof) and get back to all negotiating tables with the communities. That is of course, only if the Foundation's goals are still aligned with the core principles (recent comments from board members suggest they are not). --Millbart (talk) 14:19, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
29. Support: At present it is hideous to look at, worse to work with; it may improve over time. Even if we accept good intentions, it was insensitive and arrogant on the part of WMF to impose this on editors without prior discussion, trial or feedback. In a recent phone interview with the WMF politburo I formed an impression that addressing editor concerns was high on their agenda; I hope I was not misled. Brianboulton (talk) 15:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
30. Support – It is an utter disaster, at present. It is awful, and is completely outside the spirit of Misplaced Pages. It is our job to be no frills, bare-bones, like a encyclopaedic Gandhi, dressed in simple white cotton garb. This is emblematic of our goals, our mission, and all of our principles. To implement such technology as this is, useless and badly designed as it is, is to forsake what Misplaced Pages does right. RGloucester — ☎ 16:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
31. Support although WMF doesn't recognize community consensus. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
32. Support, per AFBorchert, Kww, Nihilres, & others.

    In an ideal world, what would happen is that Media Viewer would be made opt-in for all users, the staff at WMF would prioritize the defects described & fix them, & once it was shown it was solid & useful, the community would then agree to set it back to opt-out for all users. But based on experience, what will happen is that the WMF will dismissive to the community's objections as if we were all children, do their utmost to force an alpha-stage software upon us, then six months later wonder at reports about increased numbers of veteran Wikipedians leaving. As Nyttend points out, this second RfC should be unnecessary, but certain people at the Foundation insist on ignoring what the volunteers on the ground have been telling them. -- llywrch (talk) 06:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

33. Support. It doesn't work. What I am usually looking for is the file name, and it doesn't show you that. Worse, they don't tell you how to disable it. Even if you do figure out how to disable it, it is not disabled across all wikipedias, only the English one, so you if you are browsing images in a language you don't speak, and where the media viewer is enabled, you will not be able to find the file name or disable the media viewer in that language. —Neotarf (talk) 23:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
34. Support, But let's face it! -- there have been several RfC's, Notice board issues and Media Viewer's own feedback page showed a clear disapproval. Further, their own statistics revealed that MV was not wanted nor needed, on English and German Misplaced Pages (it's redundant, a glorified 5th wheel and something of a flat tire, given all the bugs -- and here we are months later and they're still tinkering around with this thing). They continue to misrepresent approval. Here is what their own findings say:
    approval breakdown by language: French 71%, Spanish 78%, Dutch 60%, Portuguese 81%, Hungarian 63%, English 29%, German 26%. (The numbers fluctuate, but overwhelming disapproval on English and German (most of) WP remains constant.) They admit that approval is very low for English Misplaced Pages. What they don't want you to know however is that the number of articles, editors and readers for English (and German) Misplaced Pages dwarf all other such numbers in the other Wikipedias. Look at the numbers at the bottom of the Misplaced Pages main page. ( ! duh ? ) Since English and German Misplaced Pages are the largest by far, then it goes that there is overwhelming disapproval overall. All this redundant/buggy viewer is really doing is wasting server resources while amusing certain individuals on the software development team. Their "approval", such that it is, is largely based on the feedback of naive, uninformed and occasional visitors to WP. i.e.How does anyone who is familiar with all the faults and bugs in MV lend their approval?? Easy math. I know I speak for (very) many editors when I say I have lost almost all faith for certain individuals in the WMF. Apparently they see consensus as an invasion of their turf and a challenge to their authority. Get a load of the TOC on one of the archived M.V. talk pages. Good luck guys. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
35. Support. I dislike it, but could live with it. However, when last I used it it was a non-starter because every image viewed through it violates our duty to provide proper, accessible copyright information, in a manner that is well suited to inform third-party re-users of their attribution obligations. Everything else is secondary.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
36. Support. I don't object to MediaViewer in principle, but as currently implemented it has so many issues - unlabelled buttons, no copyright info, inability to view full-size - that it's unfit for purpose. Mogism (talk) 00:20, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
37. Support, this new thing is quite clunky and unwieldy and slows down efforts to contribute and edit. — Cirt (talk) 12:50, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
38. Support - I have disabled MV on en.wiki and de.wiki, so I can see images as it used to be before MV was launched. Whatever the improvements are which supposedly have been made, anytime I read Misplaced Pages while not logged in, and want to see an image I get reminded by MV that it still doesn't function properly. Kraxler (talk) 18:51, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
39. Support, again, no evidence has been presented that Media Viewer is an improvement from the file page. Either way, the reader sees a larger version of the file after a single click on the file. The Media Viewer eliminates important information about the files and about the context of the surrounding text. On the other hand, the file page gives all of this info. One thing I would support is making files automatically open in a new tab, since 9 out of 10 times a reader will want to go back to the article after viewing the file. StringTheory11 (t • c) 19:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
40. Support. Especially the brutal force to implement such a buggy, unwanted bling-thing was absolutely disgusting. --♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 10:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
41. HELL YES Never have so many been so upset at so few, but in this process - which I'm sure will ultimately be devoutly ignored - we have a chance to right a wrong, and maybe, just maybe, get back to the way things were: happy editors, happy readers, and happy fact checkers for articles and images. TomStar81 (Talk) 11:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
42. Support —Wasell 19:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
43. Suppport (everything has been said already above and elsewhere). Ca$e (talk) 19:56, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
44. I'm more of a reader than an editor these days, and I turned the thing off as soon as I figured out how to do so. The file pages are informative, and educate readers about how images are contributed to an open-source educational project. It wasn't broken, it shouldn't be fixed. It shouldn't take umpteen RfCs to get Mr. Möller's department to roll this back. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
45. Support. This entire affair has been unhappy for many people, and has certainly left me severely disillusioned. I have cut my contributions to Misplaced Pages as a result of the events surrounding the Media Viewer, and am unlikely to return to my earlier contribution level unless their is clear evidence that the WMF are paying more attention to editors' concerns. RomanSpa (talk) 05:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
46. Support keeping Media Viewer disabled by default for both registered and unregistered editors. Anyone who wants it can turn it on. As several previous editors have said, it isn't an improvement on the existing situation. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:58, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
47. I support the RFC as a sub optimal response. But I'd prefer not to have media viewer available as an option on sites that allow Fair use images. Either that or stop hosting Fair Use images. The idea behind Media Viewer seems to be dropping the boring stuff about copyright as a large proportion of humanity doesn't take that seriously. That's annoying to those of us who contribute photographs and especially those who take copyright seriously and think that this site should continue to do so. But it isn't likely to get people in trouble, except where Fair Use images are concerned. We regularly bite newbies for misuse of Fair use images, others are entitled to bite them for it in real life. If we are going to continue to allow Fair Use images the least we can do is leave the warnings about them in place, rather than on a separate link. You could of course amend Media Viewer so that it gave appropriate licensing info when displaying a Fair Use image, but then why have Media Viewer at all? ϢereSpielChequers 13:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
48. Support Progress has been made with the Media Viewer, however I still prefer the non-Media Viewer page. Also, it's difficult using the back button because I can't tell when I'm "on the same page" versus when I'm "on a new page". Overall, at this time I don't believe it's ready. Crazycasta (talk) 01:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
49. The Community Consultation Process on Media Viewer was a sham. I get the feeling we are bashing our heads against a brick wall here though. MER-C 01:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
50. Support - Media Viewer has only gotten worse since it was first released. What used to be a minor inconvenience has become a moderate inconvenience to the editing process. Carrite (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
51. Support. Everyking (talk) 03:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
52. Support. People who like it can opt in. They should not be forced into using it by default. A later RFC could establish that there's consensus to enable it by default, but we are clearly not there yet. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
53. Support. Ahsoous (talk) 11:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose (Media Viewer RfC Question 1)

1. Not really clear why this RFC is required at the current time. Development work is still ongoing to make Media Viewer more acceptable to communities and respond to feedback. A better time for an RFC would be when a planned deployment is put on the table, and the version of Media Viewer that is proposed for deployment is available for evaluation. At the moment, there isn't really anything more to discuss beyond what was already said last time.
   On another note, I'm not sure that RFCs of this kind are helpful. They feel somewhat antagonistic to me, and seem to bring out a vocal minority of technical Luddites within this community who don't always understand the subtleties of the issue at hand. — This, that and the other (talk) 11:35, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Not within the framework of WP:CONEXCEPT, section 1 and/or 4. I will add that any legal objection regarding attribution is incompetent, as coming from persons without verifiable credentials or responsibility. It is also absurd to make such claims, when practically every page on Misplaced Pages (eg. Main Page) has no visible origin information for images. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC) I also agree that this is just a VOTE, the only practical rationale offered by the RFC is, 'if you do not like it, vote support for confronting the WMF.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
3. This is the wrong time. According to the outcome of the consultation process, as referenced above, We plan to complete all “must have” improvements by the end of October and deploy them incrementally, starting this week (that was on 11 September 2014). The end of October will be the time to start a thorough discussion, which may go better if editors aren't weary from a long RFC now. NebY (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
4. What TTO said. Also this really isn't an RfC, it's just a WP:VOTE. Legoktm (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
5. Per NebY. If they're currently working the feedback they have from us into the software and will have that done soon, a random RfC now on the basis of old discussion and an old software version is pointless. Discussion about the tool's future status should happen when there's actually something new to discuss. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
6. It's long past time to deploy this improved file-page interface, especially for non-logged-in readers who likely don't care about the cruft that we editors do. Powers 19:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
7. It looks like improvements are still being made and many of the problems of the initial version have already been fixed. Kaldari (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
8. Per NebY. Wait until they get it fixed, and then if we still don't like it, turn it off. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
9. The WMF have made an attempt to address some of the concerns of the community, we should at least wait until they are addressed before holding an RfC. I also agree with Legoktm that this is not an RfC, it's a vote. --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:57, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
10. The concerns expressed in the original RFC are already pretty much resolved. An actual RFC on this topic would review the work that has been done, and discuss it, not just have a vote for the sake of voting. And editors who don't like it can change their preferences. Risker (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
11. Keep media viewer The media viewer is a significant benefit to our readers. Yes, it does get in the way of editors, but editors have the ability to turn it off, and they do just that. Our defaults must be oriented for readers, who don't have such options. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
12. Oppose I agree with most of the comments above. PaleAqua (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
13. Per Risker, and the fact that this isn't an RfC. Ed  19:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
14. The media viewer is a useful tool for readers, and readers don't have the ability to adjust their preferences. --Carnildo (talk) 02:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
15. Good enough. Not perfect, but helpful to readers and usable for editors. And I see the WMF is doing active development in a useful and rapid manner. DGG ( talk ) 07:16, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
16. For an image editor or reviewer the additional clicking and disorganized image information makes efficient and quick work simply impossible. No feature should cater only to one portion of the community, be it readers or editors. All features need to be usable efficiently by all parts of the community and readership. However this RfC is too early, it's better to wait for the results of the current improvement drive. GermanJoe (talk) 08:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
17. Keep Mediaviewer. Improvements are ongoing, think of MV as an extended thumbnail view. Viewers will be able to go to the file description page easily. Even if the attribution does not work perfectly, I do not consider this a "showstopper". The complex cases, where MV fails are almost impossible to grok for human as well, so not much is lost here. We should rather focus on making the meta data more accessible for humans and software alike. --Dschwen 16:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
18. Per Risker this can be changed in preferences.This appears to more of an vote rather than an RFC.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 02:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
19. Keep Mediaviewer per all the comments above. MV isn't perfect but it is an improvement, especially for readers, and the WMF is still working on MV to address the concerns of the community. If people don't like it, they can opt out individually. It is clear to me that the issue isn't MV itself but the relationship between some of the community and the WMF. Unfortunately, this RFC does not appear to be an attempt to improve that relationship or to collaborate with the WMF, instead coming across as antagonistic and unhelpful. Ca2james (talk) 16:05, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
20. Oppose. Since something has to be default, I don't see it shouldn't be the media viewer. It is quite possibly true that it's not the best way to view image details for editors or heavy readers, but that has little to do with anything -- those people can just disable the default (I myself have it disabled, partly because I just don't like change). For casual readers -- which is what we're mainly talking about here, I think -- my uneducated guess is that when they click on an image they probably mainly want to see a larger version or at any rate a full-screen view. And I'm not convinced that the Media Viewer isn't, or can't be made to be, just as good if not better for that than the old way. I'd like to see an actual study of casual readers and new readers and see what they like, and it shouldn't be too hard to run one. Absent that, I'm opposed to the question. Herostratus (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
21. Keep Mediaviewer I still don't understand the big fuss about all this. Seems to me, most readers would want to see an expanded view of the media when they click on a thumbnail – it's standard practice all around the internet. For the people who don't like it, namely editors, it's very easy to figure out how to disable it (the "disable media viewer" link at the bottom of the media viewer). I'm a fan myself, and had it enabled before it went live to all users. Like the reader, I more often than not just want to see media, not work with it. I can't say I've ran into any bugs either. — MusikAnimal 18:31, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
22. Oppose Even in its current imperfect state the MV already seems an improvement for the readers, whose interests should be central to our efforts. Additionally, editors who don't like the MV can simply opt-out, so where is the problem? Given that the improvement process of the MV will last through the end of October the timing of this vote is ill-considered and not constructive. --Wolbo (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
23. Oppose June was 4 months ago and that's quite a lot of development time. No doubt MV has changed quite a bit since then and in any case consensus can change. Therefore the results of that 4-month-old RfC should not stand. WaggersTALK 09:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
24. Oppose Per WP:CONEXCEPT, software development is beyond the purview of the community. Confronting WMF is unproductive, unhelpful and unnecessary. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
25. Oppose. The Media Viewer is intended for improving the experience of the millions of silent readers out there, and a consensus of a very small self-selected set of editors here can not possibly be representative of those people. For situations like this, I think Misplaced Pages's consensus model is not appropriate and such decisions should not be made this way. For better or for worse, the decision should be left to the Wikimedia Foundation. Neatsfoot (talk) 07:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
26. Oppose Yes, it was a pain to have to find and click on that button to get to the original screen. But the arguments that it benefits new and non-editing users, and that it's still being tweaked, are enough for me to put aside my own selfish considerations. Drop the stick. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
27. Oppose The Media Viewer appears to be good enough for default use and can be disabled by users who do not want it. Making it opt-out rather than opt-in gives it the exposure necessary for testing and improving it. Kind regards, Matt Heard (talk) 01:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
28. Oppose per Risker and the RfC format concerns. Mike V • Talk 18:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
29. Oppose. Media Viewer certainly has rough edges (which the WMF is addressing), but on the balance I think it's already a real step forward, particularly for readers who just want an easier way to see large versions of images—and personally, I'm a big fan. For those who find it bothersome, opting out is pretty easy.—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 16:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Neutral (Media Viewer RfC Question 1)

1. I dislike Media Viewer and disabled it wherever it irritated me, but I see the point of those who say "Let's see the new improvements first." LynwoodF (talk) 18:42, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Abstain Please review the WMF's mission statement. The question of whether MV "empowers" people or not is a matter of opinion. The role of the WMF with respect to RfC's is not. Lila, the Board, and anyone under employment with the WMF has no obligation whatsoever to make decisions based on a community RfC alone. In this case, Lila is following what is widely considered a best practice for online services: if there is a workaround to new issues (clearly there is here in disabling the feature), then avoid creating new problems with a roll back. The path Lila has chosen is to work with the community in improving MV, instead.
   Some may dismiss this as the WMF prerogative with a rock-solid argument behind them using the founding documents of the WMF. I won't. I recommend taking Lila and her team directly to task by demanding answers in to what went wrong here. Let's demand something we might actually get: a post mortem on the initial MV rollout. What changes have been made to prevent this happening in the future? I can get things started by mentioning that we have a new VP of Engineering at the WMF, for example. What forward-looking promises can we get from the WMF and Lila that we can actually hold them to? And, more importantly, how can we help them back up these promises up for the good of the entire community and our users? There's been so much talk around MV; it's time for everyone to start walking the walk. I'm going to start by getting back to editing WP with time I'd otherwise waste on these pointless petitions. -wʃʃʍ- 20:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
3. I am pretty much neutral on Media Viewer itself, but one of the many who are put off by the condescending comments of people such as User:Fabrice Florin (WMF), and more generally the WMF as a whole. The WMF should listen to the community, rather than consistently dismissing it by referring for instance to "self-selected RFC discussions." Like it or not, RFCs have long been among the principal ways in which the Misplaced Pages community seeks consensus on important issues. And if you don't like it, it's not the community that should fork (per User:Wllm), it's the WMF employees who have lost the plot. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 16:34, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that the WMF fork instead of the community? I'm not sure that's even possible, but it would follow the pattern of people at the WMF actually doing stuff while some disgruntled members of the community waste everyone's time on toothless petitioning that puts nobody's skin in the game.

As I've said many times before, people should start walking their talk. If that means part of the community leaves to work on their own fork, I believe that would be for the best for their personal well-being and the Wikimedia projects as a whole. Why waste your time complaining about the WMF in these ridiculous petitions? Put your time and effort in to a new encyclopedia if you think you can do it better. I'm gonna stick around to see where the WMF is taking this story. -wʃʃʍ- 00:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Reserved for official comments by WMF employees (Media Viewer RfC Question 1)

(Please do not edit here if you are not WMF)

Hello @Alsee: Thanks for following up about Media Viewer. As stated last month, we are now making a range of improvements to Media Viewer, based on the results of the recent community consultation and our usability research.

For example, we just released these new features, which were announced last week:

• an easier way to enlarge images by clicking on them
• "More Details" button - a more prominent link to the File: page
• separate icons for "Download" and "Share or Embed" features

Early indicators suggest these improvements are working:

• Enlarge feature: You can now click on an image to enlarge it in Media Viewer, to support a frequently requested zoom function. We now log about 1 million clicks/day for that feature across all sites -- a dramatic 20x increase from ~50K clicks/day for the previous ‘View original file’ button (see metrics dashboard).

• File: page button: You can now click on a more prominent ‘More details’ button to go to the File: page, a frequent community request. Since this feature was launched last week, global usage has tripled, surging up to ~60K clicks/day (from ~20K clicks/day on two separate links)

• Download button: You can now click on a separate download button that's easier to find. Since launch, global usage has tripled to ~66K clicks/day on the new icon (from ~20K/day for 'Use this file' downloads)

• Disable rates: Since these improvements were launched, global opt-outs by anonymous users have decreased by 60%, down to ~800 disable actions per day (from ~2K/day before new features).

This is consistent with our expectations, based on the latest round of usability research for the recent prototype.

Next, we plan to work on these other improvements:

• more visible settings to disable Media Viewer (above-the-fold)
• a caption or description right below the image

This incremental improvement process will last through the end of October, using this standard development cycle: 1) design features based on data and user feedback; 2) prototype them; 3) validate them through usability studies; 4) build the features; and 5) measure their impact.

Once we have collected and analyzed those metrics in November, we can discuss next steps based on that information. As a rule of thumb, self-selected RfC discussions are not an effective way to determine default configurations about software -- and without usage data for the latest versions of the features, they are largely based on speculations, rather than factual observations.

Finally, we are also preparing a metadata cleanup drive to address remaining issues with missing machine-readable data that result in Media Viewer (and other tools) displaying incomplete information. This is the first time the Wikimedia Foundation has taken on this type of project -- and we invite community members to contribute to this cleanup work.

You can track our progress on the Media Viewer Improvements page, where we will post regular updates in coming weeks. Sincerely, Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 12:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Discuss and comment (Media Viewer RfC Question 1)

 Done: Sending notifications to everyone who participated in previous discussions on the same topic. Alsee (talk) 15:49, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• I see some comments about this RfC being too early, that the items in the Media_Viewer_consultation outcome have not yet been implemented. I based my personal position on the assumption that everything in that list does get implemented. I guess I assumed other people would interpret it the same way, but I'm not going to re-write the question. The RfC clearly asks people to review that consultation outcome, and people can intelligently respond based upon that consultation outcome. It was determined four three months ago that "There is a clear consensus that the Media Viewer should be disabled by default". I see no point is stalling this another 4 months 3 months... or stalling this another 999 months in "eternal development" if there exists a consensus against Media Viewer regardless of the proposed development. We do not allow someone to shove bad content into an article and then engage in tendentious discussion about "improving" that content when there is a clear consensus that no amount of "improvement" is going to permit it stay in. Alsee (talk) 22:11, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know where you get 4 months, Alsee, it was closed on July 9, which is less than three months ago. Risker (talk) 02:01, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, I accidentally my used the July-RfC-start instead of the June-RfC-end in my quickie mental count. I corrected my comment above. Alsee (talk) 08:52, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I think this makes it clear there is no claim of WP:CONEXCEPT here. The WMF withdrew it's hasty and unconsidered application of Superprotect, and explicitly asked that we not disable Media Viewer. Alsee (talk) 21:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Clear Conexcept issue: 'WMF: don't do it'. They do not need to apply superprotect that they still have, as long as it's not done. Like the community, which does not apply protection, when it does not need to, either. That is why it's never been applied on EnWP. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Can we agree that we disagree, and agree not to battle on a hypothetical? The issue is moot if this RfC doesn't pass, and the issue is moot if the WMF doesn't assert Conexcept as ground to reject it. The WMF decided that Superprotect as a Bad Idea, and perhaps they will decide that trying to claim Conexcept here is also a Bad Idea. Alsee (talk) 09:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

No. The WMF has already said where they stand. ("MV" stands for Media Viewer) . So, the only Bad Idea is this RfC, which is actually a WP:VOTE, and which is contrary to Policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• No idea who added the Files from the Media Viewer Survey (I can find it in the history, but can't be bothered to check), but files from a survey with so many errors shouldn't be used to influence an RfC. Just look at the survey. The second graph has 100% of editors who never edited Misplaced Pages, and then additional percentages of people who did, going way over the number of respondents and over 100% obviously. The summary at the top ("Media Viewer Survey results from English readers in the last 2 weeks of the survey show significant increases in the percentage of users who find Media Viewer useful, compared to the first results right after launch. From June 24 to July 8, more English readers found Media Viewer useful (62%) than not (25%), based on 496 responses for that period.") also contradicts the box at the top right, "496 responses - 201 days (March 20, 2014 - now)". And of course, the survey says nothing about Mediaviewer as compared to standard File views, so even if a majority things it is useful, we don't know whether they actually find it any better. Please don't add such files without the necessary caveats, and please indicate who added them. Fram (talk) 08:20, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The images can be viewed here. Images do not belong in the SUPPORT/OPPOSE section. The figures in the image are based on the last two weeks of limited survey data, and I distinctly recall seeing the WMF explaining that data was exceptionally unreliable due to dismal response rates. I will say in the hopes that someone can provide the cite.

The complete survey data can be viewed in this spreadsheet. The WMF summary of that data is "A majority of global respondents find the tool useful for viewing images (56% response average, 60% average across surveys), as shown on this spreadsheet. Cumulative approval by language: English 36%, French 70%, Spanish 78%, Dutch 59%, Portuguese 81%, German 30%, Hungarian 63%, Catalan 71%"". I added bolding on the English results. Furthermore their claim of "A majority of global respondents find the tool useful" is (probably unintentionally) extremely misleading. If you survey 900 bald people and 100 not-bald people you do technically obtain "90% of respondents say combs are not useful". That is also a flagrantly warped result. I recalculated the survey results to, as best as possible, accurately represent the results for global Misplaced Pages visitors. When weighted to match global Misplaced Pages readership for each language I get 39% found Media Viewer "useful", 50% found it wasn't, and 10% were not sure. Anyone who wants to check my results can see the analysis I posted at mw:Talk:Multimedia/Media_Viewer/Survey#Survey_Renormalization_To_Match_Our_Readership 6 weeks ago. And of course the survey question itself is garbage. For example mw:Talk:Multimedia/Media_Viewer/Survey#Bias: "I actually hate the interface, but I answered yes. Because it is "useful." Had I known they were using this as an approval survey I would have said no." I saw a similar comment in one of the survey text-field responses, and I have no doubt that many of the other negative text-responses would paired with "useful" votes if we could view the text-responses matched up with "useful/not useful" responses.

The WMF also has this lovely Media Viewer - English Opt-in and Opt-out Events Graph - June 27 - July 20 2014.png. The rate of opt-outs is nearly five times as high as the number of opt-ins. And I have to wonder if those opt-in results are badly inflated. When I was testing Media Viewer I toggled it off, on, off, on, off, on, off. Realistically that should be one opt-out, but it sounds like that sort of thing triggered three bogus opt-in events. Alsee (talk) 12:20, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

If I may ask: Why do people who personally would prefer to use the traditional file description pages oppose making this new media viewer an opt-out feature? Surely setting a preference once and never needing to worry about it again is a small price to pay? Powers 14:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

My reasons: 1) Because all the data we have shows that the feature isn't liked by a majority of all English-speaking groups. 2) The opt-out, at least for anons, is broken. 3) Even if the opt-out for anons worked, I'd have to set it on every computer I used. 4) Even if the opt-out worked, people now link to the media viewer when linking to images, so I can't avoid the damned thing, even if the opt-out worked. 5) There is a clear consensus that it should be disabled by default. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 14:45, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

In my case: all of that plus the fact it is inferior—making something inferior the default serves only those who developed it—it gives me an actual headache when it does its jiggling, flickering load; and I have been having to disable it on multiple-language Wikipedias, finding my way to and through the preferences in Kannada, Finnish, Latin ... it's a hassle and a half. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

It is also almost always unnecessary (it was clearly designed with galleries in mind, and most images in an article are not galleries), and actively defeats user expectations about what will happen when they click an image as well as messing with the web history. It muddles both navigation and attribution, reducing the quality of the site overall. After a few revisions, it's a lot better than it was, but the fact of the matter is that it's the wrong tool for the job. It would work much better if under image thumbnails there were a little icon you could click for something like, "Preview image", while clicking the image still brings you to the image file page. This wouldn't re-define existing behaviors, but it would allow MediaViewer as an option without enabling it in preferences. Of course, we have no leverage for a compromise, because WMF has shown that they don't give a fuck about what we think. It's really making me re-assess my monthly donation. 0x0077BE 16:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, among other reasons, why should majority "pay the small price" instead of minority..? Also, if you really think this is no big deal, why are you still arguing instead of giving up and letting the ones who think it is somewhat bigger deal win..? I'm afraid I don't see much merit in reasoning behind your rhetorical question... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Should we have a third RfC that; there would be an RfC after WMF completes the implementation of the outcome of community consultation? --Fauzan_{✉ mail} 17:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• @Fabrice Florin (WMF): Thanks for commenting. What I see missing from your thoughts is what, exactly, "Once we have collected and analyzed those metrics in November, we can discuss next steps based on that information" means. That is, let's say it's November. You've made your changes and collected your metrics. You have new numbers in hand. Now...what do you plan to do? Will you present them to the community and say "now, based on these, decide whether you want the software"? Will you have a point in mind where, if the metrics don't rise to X% of Y group, the software will be withdrawn and reworked again? What people here want to see in the discussion, I think, is a concrete course of action from the WMF. "We're reworking and re-evaluating" is great to hear, but it means little if it can't or won't be followed up with "...with X goal in mind, and if X doesn't happen, then we do Z".

  Similarly, you say that self-selected RfCs are "not an effective way to determine default configurations about software". I pretty much agree with you on that...but but but. If this type of RfC isn't going to work for you, in what manner do you want the community to comment on and support or oppose software changes in regards to this project, in particular? Petitions? Letter-writing campaigns? Skywriting "Enwp wants the WMF to change Product Q" over San Francisco? People are fighting to find, in these software deployment cases, what will get the WMF to listen to the community's will (or to their own personal opinions), and so far the WMF's response to that has been mostly of the type "Oh, you want to know how to get software recalled or paused? Well, let me tell you about the next deployment date and changelog instead!" Interesting stuff to hear, but not actually an answer to the question the community is asking, you know? I think you'd get fewer people willing to die on this hill if you gave them a sense of what they can do to change things other than dying on this hill. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Fluffernutter:: Good to meet again, and thanks for your interest in this project.

In response to your question, our goals for Media Viewer in the next few weeks are to:

1) complete the 'must-have' tasks we identified from our community consultation;

2) verify through user research and metrics that they are working as intended (using the same methodologies as reported in previous Media Viewer updates, such as the above response);

3) fix any critical bugs for Media Viewer and these features;

4) review these results with the community;

5) wrap up development on this project.

So far, about half of the 'must-have' tasks have been released, as listed in my previous response. Here are the ones that are still in development, which we plan to release in coming weeks:

• Easy Disable/Enable Settings from Media Viewer (#836)
• Re-enable Media Viewer from a File Page (#719)
• Show caption above the fold in Media Viewer (#589)
• Pre-render thumbnails in all sizes on the back-end (#301)
• Move license label after source (#833)
• Make MediaViewer text larger in Monobook (#876)

You can track our progress for these tasks on our current sprint wall.

As for your other question (how the community can comment on software changes), that was the primary purpose of our widely-promoted Media Viewer consultation. We asked for community feedback, we received a lot of great suggestions, we prioritized them and developed the 'must-haves'. This consultation process seems effective for limited releases like this one. (Note that we are also exploring other ideas for community participation, as described in my response to Alsee below.)

However, please keep in mind that our multimedia team is urgently needed on other high-priority projects like Upload Wizard and Structured Data. Once the most critical tasks listed here are done, we will switch our attention to these critical projects, which have been explicitly requested by the community. But we will continue to share our Media Viewer findings with the community in coming weeks, and look forward to reviewing them together in mid-November. Thank you. Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 23:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks Fabrice Florin (WMF) for your friendly and helpful post in the WMF section. I fully trust the WMF to implement 100% of the improvements that the WMF says it plans to make, and my intent with this RfC was for people to take into account all of those promised improvements. I encourage people to fully consider your post before responding to this RfC.

Nonetheless, I am very troubled that the Community Consultation process was deaf by design to any community input that did match what the WMF wanted to hear. The WMF director, Lila, promised a Community Consultation process "with no predetermined outcome". The consultation outcome looks pretty predetermined to me. If this RfC passes I think it means the consultation was a failed, broken process. The nontraditional bottom-up wiki governance and the traditional top-down WMF governance models are clashing. I sincerely hope that all of us can find a better way to bridge that gap. Alsee (talk) 18:38, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Alsee: You make a reasonable point that there is some tension between the community’s bottom-up governance model and the more structured decision-making process of a software development organization like ours. But as you can tell from the comments above, it is not possible to design software that will satisfy every point of view. As much as possible, we strive to make our designs consistent with evolving user interface standards, easy to understand, and responsive to the needs of our broad user base.

We have already invited community feedback, extending our development time by an entire quarter to address the most important requests. The consultation outcome was not at all pre-determined and we carefully evaluated every community suggestion before making a final selection. We focused on specific calls for improvement where we could make a difference, based on some great suggestions from our community. And we were very clear from the outset that requests to turn off the software were outside the scope of this consultation.

Going forward, we are building a more robust, quantified process for measuring the success of our projects and for gathering feedback early in the planning cycle, based on some of the ideas discussed in this separate consultation about process. We look forward to evaluating all these suggestions with our product group in coming weeks, and you should be hearing from us soon. Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 23:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

"The consultation outcome was not at all pre-determined And we were very clear from the outset that requests to turn off the software were outside the scope of this consultation." These two statements are inconsistent. In light of the latter statement, the former is mendacious. It's clear from your statement that it was a predetermined outcome that Media Viewer would remain enabled no matter what happened with the "consultation." The WMF has never given a compelling reason for insisting on imposing this predetermined outcome despite a clear consensus to the contrary. A consultation isn't a consultation if you're going to declare anything you don't want to hear as out of scope. A question that has been asked many times before but never answered: "What would it take for the WMF to disable the Media Viewer in conformance to the clear consensus on the English Misplaced Pages, the German Misplaced Pages, and the Commons?"--98.207.91.246 (talk) 23:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

@Fabrice Florin (WMF): The IP address beat me to it, but I still need to say it. "The consultation outcome was not at all pre-determined" combined with "clear from the outset that requests to turn off the software were outside the scope of this consultation" is insulting. It's offensive. Statements like that just inflame the situation. Alsee (talk) 07:42, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

To people saying that since people can opt out, this isn't an issue: wrong. People on other sites are now linking to media viewer pages, not the file page. Even if you never want to see media viewer, it's thrown in your face if you browse the web with any regularity. Also, if you don't have an account, the opt-out periodically breaks. You also have to opt out on each computer that you use. There is also the issue that a lot of people don't know how to get to the file page. Some people don't even know what they're missing, with the version history and the full description. And finally, stop talking about the readers. Not a single reader has chimed in to support media viewer. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 03:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

@Fabrice Florin (WMF):"The consultation outcome was not at all pre-determined And we were very clear from the outset that requests to turn off the software were outside the scope of this consultation" is just a short way of saying "we will only listen to people that agree with our predetermined outcome". Do people at the WMF wonder why we consider the statements from WMF staff to be intentionally deceitful, or do you just sit back and laugh after you write nonsense like that?—Kww(talk) 04:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC Question 2

The WMF made this statement when deactivating Superprotect:

Dear German Misplaced Pages community,

We’ve been talking a lot with many of you and at the WMF about the current situation regarding Media Viewer and site-wide JavaScript changes.

Restricting edits to MediaWiki:Common.js was a difficult decision for us. We regret that we missed opportunities to do our part in avoiding a conflict that no one wanted. At the same time, we cannot fulfill our responsibilities as the site operator when users take it upon themselves to disable functionality by editing site-wide JavaScript that is executed for all users.

We learned that the use of superprotection unintendedly created the impression that we don't trust the community. This is not the case, so we have therefore removed the restriction.

In doing so, we are investing our trust and goodwill in every community member that you will work together with us before making changes to site-wide JavaScript. And we are specifically asking you to not change site-wide JavaScript to deactivate Media Viewer or to make it opt-in.

Our commitment to you is to address open technical issues with Media Viewer based on a global community consultation process beginning tomorrow. The consultation page will address the scope, intent, and timelines of the consultation will be announced on all projects and will be open-ended. We will update here with the details when the page is live and will support German language participation.

We ask you to work with us in good faith in the upcoming month and through this effort define a better, closer way of working together in support of our common goals.

Sincerely, Lila & Erik

Question Two. In light of the statement above, should Question One carry the following implementation terms:

• Place a 7 day hold against Community action to implement this RfC.
• Officially deliver the closing results to the WMF.
• Express our desire to work together with the WMF before making changes to site-wide JavaScript.
• Express our desire to work with the WMF in good faith, and our hope for a better closer way of working together in support of our common goals.
• Formally request the WMF to implement this configuration change for English Misplaced Pages.
• 7 days after this RfC closes our JavaScript experts and other admins are directed to take any steps necessary to implement this RfC, if such steps are still needed.

NOTE: Question two shall have NO EFFECT if question one fails. You can oppose question one and still support question two, just in case question one passes.

Support (Media Viewer RfC Question 2)

1. SUPPORT as RfC author. I want to make every effort of develop a more collaborative relationship between the community and the WMF. Alsee (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
2. Support. First we should try to work with them, FWIW. Then, when that will fail, fiat justitia ruat caelum. BethNaught (talk) 16:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Support. The seven days give WMF sufficient time to implement this. Features that are switched on by default and problematic in regard to copyright law (two clicks to access complete copyright information) lie within the domain of the community. How can we with good conscience use images at en:wp if, by default, this feature hides essential copyright info? This is a problem of the community as many of them work with their real names and have consequently a different perspective than the WMF who sits in the safe harbour. --AFBorchert (talk) 17:58, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
4. Support. This seems a reasonable proposal. LynwoodF (talk) 18:47, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
5. Support. I can't see why this would controversial at all. Powers 19:23, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
6. Of course. We should try to work with them, but community consensus must be enforced as long as it's technically possible. Nyttend (talk) 19:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
7. Support. I don't know about all the details, but I'm coming from a position that we, editors and WMF, are all in this together. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
8. Support per BethNaught. Double sharp (talk) 01:40, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
9. Support. We should try to work with the WMF since we're all in this together. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:43, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
10. Strong Support -- CONEXCEPT clearly was never intended to apply to this kind of situation. This does not implicate any basic principle of the movement, nor is there a compelling technical reason to oppose a return to how things were for over a decade. I disagree with the time frame. We've been stuck with this terrible, shoddy, ill-conceived software for what, five months now? It needs to be returned to opt-in immediately. The anonymous opt-out is broken and it keeps on returning. This has gone on far, far, too long. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 06:42, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
11. support -jkb- (talk) 09:21, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
12. Support. It would be nice to have more options, but no one suggested anything else and this option does seem to achieve some balance between conciliatory and antagonistic approaches... If WMF wants to reconcile with us, they have 7 days to do something, and if they do not, why should we give up just because resisting makes their life harder? If they do not act as friends with us, why should we act as if we were friends with them? Of course, it is to be understood that simply turning off Media Viewer for everyone is perfectly acceptable - if WMF doesn't like it, they are free to offer us an alternative we would prefer. Or, if they really want to use their legal rights (that some opposers discuss), they are free to ban everyone at the price of a public relations disaster (I'm pretty sure the editors will survive, I am not so sure about WMF). Somehow, I doubt they will actually do so, thus legal rights seem to be a red herring here... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
13. Support. The putsch by WMF against its employers, the communities, that generate all donations with their content creation and maintenance, was extremely hostile and must never happen again. --♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 10:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
14. Support And also go so far as to request that certain of the provisions such as official presentation of results be made regardless of question 1.

Oppose (Media Viewer RfC Question 2)

1. Per my my oppose and policy (WP:CONEXCEPT section 1 and 4) above, and to repeat AFBorchet's argument (and similar) shows a misunderstanding or incompetence regarding law, and does not accord with current layout. Moreover, if you think the Foundation is doing something illegal, than the remedy is not an RfC or a WP:Vote, per WP:LAWSUIT. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

   While I don't agree with many of the things the WMF is doing, when it comes to legal issues I think it is always best to defer to them. They have a team of professional lawyers working for them who were hired for their expertise. If they believe that MediaViewer does not violate licensing requirements, then I trust them. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:43, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

2. I'd support this if only the first 5 bullet points were present, but I can't support it given "7 days after this RfC closes our JavaScript experts and other admins are directed to take any steps necessary to implement this RfC, if such steps are still needed." Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
3. The WMF is supposed to serve the projects, not the other way around. Their removing the super-protection is too little, too late, and they should not be setting conditions. Their forcing software changes on the projects that impair our ability to execute our mission here is indefensible and is yet another indication that they have forgotten what we are here for and what they are supposed to exist for. No negotiation. Throw this thing out. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
4. Per Jackmcbarn I agree with all but the last bullet. While I think Mediaviewer should not be the default, I don't think that we should be tempting the WMF to reinstate something like super-protection. Whether we like it or not, these are still their servers, and while WMF policy gives users wider latitude for making major site changes than just about any website I can think of, I don't think we should push it. There has to be a better diplomatic solution before we declare war. --Ahecht (TALK
   PAGE) 02:34, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
5. The 6th bullet point seems like the wrong approach. The others would be okay if the first passes ( granted I am opposed to that at this time as well ). PaleAqua (talk) 15:12, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
6. Bullet 6 as it stands is a bad idea; we should not commit to this until we know it will work. That is to say, we shouldn't hold this RfC until we've already written and approved a JS script that will accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not sure that any solution we come up with will be good enough. This is putting the cart before the horse. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
7. A declaration of war against the WMF if they fail to comply will just lead to the return of superprotect or mass blockings. This isn't a major enough issue to justify an internal civil war. Mogism (talk) 00:24, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
8. Per Jackmcbarn, Mogism, etc. There's no need for any party to be antagonistic here. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
9. Per the above comments. Giving the WMF 7 days to do what you want isn't collaborating; it's tantamount to a declaration of war. A war is a waste of energies and will end up damaging the project, which seems a little like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Ca2james (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
10. Not only is the sixth bullet point not technically feasible (see below), but it is also absurd and objectionable to talk of directing all admins and Javascript experts to take any steps necessary to implement this. What will we do to any that don't snap to attention and rush into action - denounce them as enemies of the Party? NebY (talk) 19:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
11. Per WP:CONEXCEPT. This whole proposal is muddle-headed and wrong. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Neutral (Media Viewer RfC Question 2)

1. I don't care how the WMF is informed, how Media Viewer is disabled, or what schedule is followed. I just want Media Viewer disabled by default for all users (including anonymous readers) within a month of the RFC being closed. Assuming, of course, that the decision is "disable by default" or "remove it entirely". Or even "kill it with fire" but that last one presumably violates the rules about civil discourse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.0.55 (talk) 01:54, 6 October 2014
2. "Good faith"? This is not a question of "faith". The community disabled the media viewer AFTER they saw what it was doing. —Neotarf (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
3. Neutral - The hostility is unfortunate. It may be that the WMF started out by taking a hostile attitude toward the community, but we don't need to perpetuate that hostility. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Abstain. This is pointless. First off, there is no obligation implied or otherwise that the WMF comply with any RfC in their charter or bylaws. Second, there have been many highly substantive changes at the WMF, including a new Executive Director that has yet to oversee a full development cycle and a brand new VP of Engineering that has yet to oversee anything at all.

Please, consider this; is it the community's will that we don't give them a chance? I would like to see what these leaders at the WMF can do before everyone dogpiles on them- especially Lila. 2-3 months should be more than enough to see which direction they plan to lead the community in. Or maybe we'd prefer the immediate gratification of cutting off our nose to spite our face? Here's an alternative plan: as a community, let's give them the support they need to accomplish our mutual goals. If we step up; they will either step up with us or fall down the staircase. So how bout we step up and see what happens? -wʃʃʍ- 00:36, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• "...see what happens"? This is what we've been doing for months now. And thanks for lending support to the nose thumbing directed at consensus by your pat referral to "by laws". Most governments of the free world are subject to the same laws as are the people -- but evidently not here at Misplaced Pages, something that is supposed to be a pillar of community team work. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

By "months," you're talking about the 4 months the new ED has been on the job? Sure. And while we're at it, I'd like a full list of substantial changes the VP of Engineering has made in the several days we've been waiting after he started.

This is absurd. It took years for these problems to build up. The community demanded change, and it got it. Now you expect the new management to clean things up yesterday? Give them a little time. Or continue to push these half-cocked RfCs while everyone else gets back to work with renewed vigor as the true benefits of the changes the Board and Lila have made become apparent. Worst case scenario, change doesn't happen fast enough or goes the wrong way, and you can get back to these toothless and skin-free RfC's in 6 months or so. Why not give them a chance and see where they take things? -wʃʃʍ- 21:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Wllm, please stop discussing things as if you are "from the community" and not "from the WMF". If you want to see what the leaders of the WMF can do, just go home, where you have every opportunity to observe that. Don't pretend to be "one of us" with your "we" for the editors here, and "they" for the WMF, when all you are is a WMF mole. Fram (talk) 10:42, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm a WMF mole? No, Fram, I'm a human. Just like you. And I show you the respect that every human deserves. I'd appreciate it if you would reciprocate by not trying to exclude me from community debates.

I am part of this community, whether you like it or not. On the flip side, I am not part of the WMF and don't represent them in any way. No doubt many WMFers would find your suggestion that I'm some sort of mole as ludicrous as I do, considering my outspoken criticism of certain aspects and actions of the WMF in the past. I'll go toe to toe with you about the "merits" of these silly petitions, and I can do it without resorting to bad-faith attempts at discrediting you. -wʃʃʍ- 21:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Erm, I dunno. If I'm reading this correctly, the general thrust is "Let's see if the community is OK with the Media Viewer as default, and if it is, nothing much happens, but if its not, we'll make it the not-default using Javascript, OK?". Right? I think I'm reading the intent right. Hrm, don't know about this... I'm a little unsure if the community should be doing this, and here's why: the community that is voting on Question 1 is basically editors, mostly long-term heavily involved editors. Not entirely but skewed in that direction. It's only human nature for people to want to have an environment that is best for them personally and to conflate that with the best environment generally, and also only human nature for people to have difficulty getting inside the shoes of people who are very different from them. "'It's a good thing we don't all like the same things', said the Scotsman -- 'think of what a shortage of oatmeal there'd be!'" is, after all, funny because there's a kernel of truth in there.

To avoid the first and do the second takes effort, practice, and the proper mindset. It's not something that everyone can do. That is why they don't just grab the nearest programmer to do the user interface design and so forth. So I guess one of the questions on the table is: Who is best qualified to suss what Mrs Pinckney Pruddle of Sandusky, Ohio, probably expects to happen when she click on an image.. Is it the community of experienced Misplaced Pages editors? Is the WMF? Is it someone else? I don't know, but I'm not confident that it's the community of experienced Misplaced Pages editors as opposed to the WMF. Herostratus (talk) 15:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Reserved for official comments by WMF employees (Media Viewer RfC Question 2)

(Please do not edit here if you are not WMF)

Please see our response to the first question above.

Discuss and comment (Media Viewer RfC Question 2)

(The following thread was split off of #Neutral (Media Viewer RfC Question 2) by Alsee (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC))

We've given the WMF months. We're still stuck with the shoddy, ill-conceived software that is Media Viewer. We've told them we don't want it. They responded by saying, "Hey, we're listening to you. Give us suggestions." And then when they summarize what we said, they ignore the dominant feedback that people don't want Media Viewer, instead focusing on little details but pretending they've made vast improvements. It still stinks. It shouldn't be replacing the file page for anyone. The community is the project, not the WMF. The WMF is a useful legal entity to do the things that the community can't. But they've deluded themselves into thinking they're the boss and they aren't. This is unacceptable. They absolutely are bound to abide by an RfC of this nature. Their whole purpose is to serve the community, like it or not. The community has given the WMF months to do the right thing. It shouldn't give them even another hour because it looks like the WMF still doesn't get it. Disable Media Viewer immediately. And if the WMF pulls another Germany, ask the stewards, on behalf of the community, to lock the WMF out so that community consensus is honored. The WMF has burned all their good faith. It's time that the nightmare that is Media Viewer ends. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 02:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that most of those who don't like MV would support such a dramatic approach to the issue. And, when it comes to WMF being the boss, there are very few assets in this project that aren't given away for free. Those assets include the domain names. The WMF and the domain names are not sold separately. If you don't like the way the WMF is running things, and you feel you've given an organization with a new chief executive just 4 months on the job enough time to fix everything, your most productive path is to fork the project. Please. There are plenty of people who want to get back to building a great encyclopedia on wikipedia.org, and I venture to say that anyone who isn't interested in working constructively with the WMF won't be missed much.

It's time to call all bluffs: work with us or fork off already. In either case, please stop wasting people's time on these silly and ultimately toothless petitions and RfCs. -wʃʃʍ- 06:34, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

You're not calling any bluffs. I have no interest in working with anyone on Misplaced Pages and as evidenced by my refusal to actually create an account. I've never expressed any interest. You've lost nothing no matter what I do. I'm not pretending otherwise. I'm not at a point in my life where writing or editing an encyclopedia—or working on any wiki—holds any attraction for me. I'm just sick of the disaster that is Media Viewer being justified in the name of people like me who just read. I'm sick of the complete deafness in the WMF to any feedback about Media Viewer that doesn't fit with the "Multimedia vision" some middle-manager at the WMF came up with one day and now it's the plan, hell or high water—without any any meaningful community consultation. All this, while pretending they're listening. I'm incensed that the community that is actually the heart of the project is being ignored by the legal organization created to serve them when the community spoke with a clear and unambiguous voice that they didn't want this product. And I'm livid that the organization which no longer represents the community it was supposed to is raising funds in the name of that community in order to do more of the same but implying that the money is needed for infrastructure. This is deeply misleading and offensive.

Lila had plenty of opportunity to deal with this better at a very early stage. The negative feedback after the initial rollout was swift and overwhelming. It would have been a good time to rollback and reevaluate. Instead, delay, delay, delay. Let's lock a community out of its wiki when it does something we disagree with—and let's write an emergency software patch on a Sunday morning to do it. Oh, it's been out for months now... we can't roll it back now. It's a rigged game and it's bullshit. And I can't believe Lila, no matter how new she was, had no idea what she was doing.

I'm sick of Media Viewer. I can't get rid of it. Broken opt-out for people without accounts—supposedly the people that this was written for. Media Viewer showing up in external links to the site which I can't fix, even when the opt-out is working. If I cared about the mission, I might be upset about forcing this down the throats of other people similarly situated. But realistically, never show it to me again, and while I'll still think the WMF is rotten, I won't think of it until I see a stupid, misleading advertising banner asking for money the WMF doesn't need. Or the next stupid piece of software that nobody outside the WMF asked for is rolled out and makes the site more annoying to use. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 07:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

@Wllm: Supporting this IP. They are bang-on right. I have actually raised the issue of forking. I believe it's long past time. The WMF is a ridiculously inflated appendage that is swinging the project around - WP:FLOW will be even more of a disaster, and yet the WMF refuses to stop. The train of mistrust of the WMF left a long time ago thanks to this string of unjustifiable and mismanaged software changes. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

@Yngvadottir: I'd like to hear your reasoning in the current context, not that of "a long time ago". The Board realized there was a problem. 4 months ago Lila took over as Executive Director. Just days ago a new VP of Engineering was introduced to the community. We already see things changing, although we haven't yet seen a full product cycle in which communication and trust is established from the get-go as they should be under these 2 leaders. This is the current context, and it's quite different from previous situations. Please explain why it makes more sense to fork during this period of great change, rather than giving these people and the Board a chance to fix what's broken. -wʃʃʍ- 00:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I've seen no evidence of even a single change, just lots of marketing mumbo jumbo. I tend to agree with Yngvadottir that the time for a fork may be fast approaching, particularly as Jimbo has said that he's prepared to pay for the necessary server(s). Eric Corbett 00:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I've got to agree with Eric here - if there is institutional change going on as far as how the WMF will plan, deploy, and approach the community about software, that change hasn't come through to the community yet that I've been able to see. I don't doubt that they're probably trying to change, but if you're saying "But things have already changed for the better, and will keep changing like that", and we can't see any change...I dunno. Maybe they need to change harder? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 00:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been spending a lot of time on the wikimedia servers and even talking with the WMF director. She hasn't had the job very long, and she was honestly blindsided by the community reaction to Superprotect. In her last job as Chief product officer it was perfectly natural for management to lock down the javascript like that. She's been getting a crash course in who we are and how we work. She is planning some change in MWF approach to things, but I can't tell yet whether she plans to collaborate with us or whether it's going to be more bogus "Community Consultation" like they had on Media Viewer. I suggest lowering the pitchforks until we see what happens next. Alsee (talk) 03:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

But it's well beyond time for things to change, hence the pitchforks. Eric Corbett 04:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I started this RfC, I'm lugging around the biggest heaviest pitchfork here. I suggested lowering the pitchforks, not dropping them. I don't want to get jabby if we can avoid it. Within a week of RfC closing, probably sooner, we'll know whether the WMF is escalating or de-escalating the situation. Alsee (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Here are two examples of changes of a very different nature. Let's start with something very concrete. Lila hired a new VP of Engineering. If we're talking about change WRT the software the WMF develops, it doesn't get much better. Now for something a bit less tangible. I just skimmed over Lila's talk page. It looks nothing like Sue's. Lila is clearly listening, asking questions, and taking action on the feedback, which is apparent in what she's said there about the Flow project.

I think you guys are talking about not seeing the benefits from change yet. Well, big changes have happened with more to come, no doubt, and they will turn in to results in a few short months. Is it really unreasonable to suggest we wait that long before we pick up the pitchforks and light the torches? -wʃʃʍ- 00:51, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The only concrete change I want here is Media Viewer being disabled by default, as per consensus. This ugly baby needs to die and the people who forced it down our throats need to find new employment. That would be concrete change, not the organizational lip service you've talked about. --98.207.91.246 (talk) 02:14, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@Wllm: First I've heard of anything except the change in Executive Director. Of course you intend to stay around and see what the WMF does - you came in with her, into the WMF. The thing is, the WMF is not the management of the projects - it is a service adjunct to them. We are the ones who do the work. If your partner was "blindsided" as Alsee says, then she did not research the job. The Visual Editor debacle and before that the community's response to the removal of OBOD without providing IP editors with any replacement notification of posts to their talk pages should have provided ample history regarding the community's response to their work environment being mucked up in the name of - full employment for programmers? poorly defined change for change's sake? - and the manner in which the volunteers here reach decisions was surely in the briefing sheet (this is the second time I see you referring here to "wasting time"). For that matter, I understand the WMF refused some time ago to implement a change in respect to creation of new pages that had been decided upon by English Misplaced Pages. And preparations to force WP:FLOW on us are still barreling along. No, I don't see any changes on the WMF's part. The one recent piece of news I am aware of is that Jimbo insulted all of us at the latest con. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:11, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure Jimbo did so thoughtfully and with kindness though. Eric Corbett 04:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Was that when Jimbo said something to the effect that those who aren't here to build an encyclopedia in good faith should find something else to work on and leave the rest of us to do what we love to do in a constructive environment? I can't say I agree with everything Jimbo says, but I'm 100% on board with that. The petty politics and nastiness that is apparent in all too many comments on this page has got to go. -wʃʃʍ- 21:35, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• Which "javascript experts" are we talking about here? The self-appointed ones? The ones who took a class once and totally know what they're doing? The ones who have admin rights, and thus must know what they're doing? The ones who heard about this piece of js from someone who totally knows what they're doing, so the code must be ok? The whole reason the js-editing debacle turned into such a disaster last time is because we don't have a designated team of "javascript experts" in the lay community; instead we have a team of admin-type people who have the technical ability to edit mediawiki pages but who may or may not have the slightest idea what they're doing. If a mediawiki dev(s) or other actually-provably-qualified-to-edit-mediawiki-code person is willing to write javascript that will a) enact the community's will and b) not be buggy, prone to breaking things it shouldn't, or otherwise degrade site performance, then yeah, let's talk about the cases where the enwp community will use that code, and how we're going to limit the ability to edit that code to that person or people. But unless you're going to limit this implementation to those qualified people only (perhaps through limiting editing of mediawiki space to those actually responsible for the mediawiki software? oh, wait...), we're just going to land back in a case where a well-meaning person throws in a hack, breaks things sitewide, and has to be reverted while everyone gets very angry and shouts rude words. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken there's significant precedent of community management of Javascript, and I trust we have competent people for the job. Nonetheless, this RFC already explicitly designed to address your concerns. You can OPPOSE question one and SUPPORT question two. Alsee (talk) 21:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Well no, this isn't addressing any of my concerns, because my concern in this case is that Question Two is written in a way that's just unworkable, and I'm worried to see people voting either way on it without thinking about that. The last time around, we had someone who didn't know javascript "fix" mediawiki to match the community's will by breaking it, and there's nothing in this proposal that stops the same thing from happening again: "The community said to do X, so even though I don't know if this patch will work, I'm going to put it into our local setup, because the community's will must be done, and right now!" If we want to play hardball in this way - forcing through software changes to do what the WMF won't, taking responsibility for producing our own code that supplements or replaces theirs - then those software changes had better be absolutely bulletproof and implemented according to best practices, not hacked together by whoever happened by and volunteered themselves, whether they knew what they were doing or not. The "our javascript experts" in this proposal will end up being "whoever shows up" unless you have actual mediawiki or javascript experts who have pre-emptively signed themselves up to be in charge of this software change. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 22:22, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• • I think instead of focusing on the "who" and instead on the "what" would be helpful here. I think it would be good policy that soon after starting an RfC that you send a notice to the WMF developers that there is an RfC, and that X is the code we currently will use to implement it. This means the initiator of the RfC needs to either supply the code or find someone who can write it fairly early in the process. If there's anything wrong with the particular code - will it break something else - then we'll gladly work with any feedback from the developers. But it's not an invitation for WMF to overturn or alter the results of the RfC, but rather is an invitation for them to give feedback and help the community implement the RfC without disrupting anything else. VanIsaac_WS 00:01, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that the WMF has been notified, chuckle. I'm a programmer, but I haven't worked with Javascript specifically. During the Superprotect event German Misplaced Pages made a very hasty change which fully disabled Media Viewer rather than setting it to Opt-In. I'm sure that javascript has been widely examined and the opt-in version is well known by now. I did consider adding something to the RfC setting up public review process, but I didn't want to complexify the RfC. Alsee (talk) 19:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you know of a JS solution to this? I don't know if I'd be considered a Javascript expert or not, but I am also a programmer, and I have worked with Javascript quite a bit, including here on Misplaced Pages; I haven't heard of a JS solution yet, and I don't really think one is possible that will be good enough. The problem is that the current MV opt-out preference is in a place where we can't really do much to it. We can look up its value, or change it with an API call, but the problem is that it is on by default right now, and we can't change that directly through JS (since it's not a gadget). We also can't distinguish through JS between people who have deliberately checked it and people who just haven't touched the setting at all(I think we can through the DB itself, but both cases look the same to the JS), so we have no way of telling the difference between someone who has slready opted in and someone who has just registered and has simply not changed the default setting. We could create our own on-by-default gadget to physically disable the MV, but then there are two different settings on two different pages that both have to be enabled to use MV, which is bad (though undoubtedly the two-key approach will appeal to some in the audience...). I'm not sure there's any good way to do this without something more heavy-duty than JS. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't referring to this matter specifically, but to a general principle of conducting RfCs in the future. If an RfC will require a change to site code or settings, we should have that code established early on, so that the developers can submit any feedback on unintended consequences of the proposed code or settings changes. VanIsaac_WS 05:10, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd say we should consider more than one option... For example, what is going to happen, if the answer to this question will be "No."? Will nothing be done, or will someone disable MV without informing WMF? Also, perhaps we have more "creative" ways to do something (like, just to "brainstorm", showing a link to the "Open letter" whenever a request for donations is shown)? --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Oppose getting into stupid pissing contests with WMF. The terms of Use we all agreed to make it clear WMF controls and decides what the technical infrastructure is. There's nothing wrong with having discussions about how software features impact our editorial work and conveying the consensus of such discussions to WMF, nor in criticizing there actions collectively or individually (as allowed by the "good faith criticism that does not result in actions otherwise violating these Terms of Use or community policies" clause of those terms). But intentionally making edits to alter the function of the software in a manner known to be contrary to WMFs wishes is wrong. NE Ent 21:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Could you, please, cite the actual text to that effect? I don't see anything that could be interpreted as a promise to obey WMF on software matters without question. Of course, I might have missed it... Or, perhaps, I have looked at a different version ()... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Admin training: a good idea?

I propose that after someone becomes an admin, they should be required to spend a certain amount of time (I'm not sure how long, but it would be defined in # of admin actions) in a training program. This program, under my proposal, would involve them (in addition to making normal edits) making the same decisions (such as blocking and protecting) as real admins do, but it would have no effect. The purpose would be for existing admins to determine if they know how to conduct themselves in tough situations admins frequently find themselves in. I think this is a good idea because it will help ensure that new admins are at least a little experienced before they assume their new responsibilities. Thoughts would be appreciated. Jinkinson talk to me 01:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I saw this at WP:Perennial proposals but most of the section about this is actually about allowing some people to have some, but not all, admin rights, which is a totally different issue from what I am proposing. Jinkinson talk to me 01:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

See Category:Administrator instructions.—Wavelength (talk) 03:25, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The thing is...the vast majority of situations admins find themselves in are not "tough situations". The vast majority of uses of the admin tools are entirely uncontroversial and not at all difficult. Look at the raw block log. Look at the raw deletion log. What do you find? Clear and conspicuous vandals and vandalism. Gross edit warring. Obvious housekeeping. Out of several thousands of admin actions in any given day, you can usually count on one hand the number which are brought up at AN/I; only a tiny fraction of that minuscule number are overturned.

Any given admin will be 'first on the scene' of a controversial situation only seldom. No admins is ever compelled to take any action in any case—we can always leave the situation for someone who feels better able to handle it. Worse, the proposal implies – incorrectly – that any given "tough situation" will actually have a 'correct' response—that controversial admin actions are the result of a lack of admin education, rather than genuine disagreements about how to interpret or apply Misplaced Pages policy.

In any event, before this goes farther Jinkinson (or anyone) should make some effort to actually substantiate the implicit claim that (the very small number of) new admins actually represent a problem that would justify implementing such a clunky and bureaucratic process. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:02, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Would they learn how to block badly behaved Admins? Most don't seem to be able to do it. HiLo48 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

So like.... WP:ADCO. Legoktm (talk) 07:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Watchlist-related

1. Add a toggling "unwatch"/"watch" link to the "diff | hist" links at the start of each entry (and use a dot/interpunct as the separator between them rather than a pipe?);
2. Means to view/reorder the list in reverse, i.e. according to how long pages on the list have remained unchanged.

I don't think these are persistent / perennial or already possible, but apologies if either or both are either or both (and please indicate how/where I should look). Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:54, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

1. Have a look at User:Js/watchlist.
2. That's not trivial, since the watchlist is getting its data from the recentchanges table, which only covers the last 30 days. So for showing anything older than that you would need not just a change in sort order, but a different way to extract these data from the database. It's probably possible, but would be less efficient. — HHHIPPO 21:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for your responses and sorry for the time before this one. I've just installed User:Js/watchlist<aside>which looks interesting</aside> and, yes, I wondered if the "reverse/inverse watchlist" might be relatively demanding. On the other hand, if the software has to work through a watchlist to see which items have been changed in the past N hours/days, wouldn't it be looking up when each item had last been changed and so would only be a step or two away from producing a list which it could then present in reverse..?

Regards, Sardanaphalus (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

A Simple Partnership with the Embryo project Encyclopedia

I am the editor in chief of the Embryo Project Encyclopedia, an online open access publication aimed for inclusive audiences. We propose to incorporate our content with Misplaced Pages pages.

Allow me first to describe the encyclopedia, then why we are posting here, and finally our proposal to partner with Misplaced Pages.

The Embryo Project Encyclopedia publishes articles about embryology, developmental biology, and reproductive medicine. The intended audience for the articles includes people with between roughly 9 and 16 years of education. The purpose of the encyclopedia is to increase scientific literacy among its readers about the fields of science listed above. To achieve that aim, articles in the encyclopedia use historical methods to situate scientific results in social contexts.

The encyclopedia is funded by the US National Science Foundation, and it is the product of a collaboration between the Center for Biology and Society at Arizona State University and the Marine Biological Laboratory. All articles receive rigorous peer and editorial review to be factual, non evaluative, and to connect readers to online resources for verification of contents. The publication has an ISSN of 1940-5030, all contents are Creative Commons licensed (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0), and the articles are indexed in scholarly databases like Google Scholar.

We'd like to partner our content with Misplaced Pages. Through various channels, we learned that that this forum provides the most appropriate venue to propose a plan to share our content on Misplaced Pages, but if we should instead use another means, please let us know.

The following plan describes an initial proposal.

Background We have just under 600 articles in our encyclopedia, but we publish three new articles per week.

Goal We'd like to incorporate into our editing process some steps to link our articles on relevant Misplaced Pages pages under 'External links' headers. For instance, as we just published an article on Francois Jacob, we'd like to include a link to it under 'External links' on the Francois Jacob Misplaced Pages page.

Issue In trials runs of that practice, Wikimedians have understandably deleted many of our links. They claim that such links are spam, self-promotional, and thus violate Misplaced Pages's principles of editing and posting. We appreciate the need for the antispamming principles, and we see how Wikimedians might construe our practices as potentially spam. We think, however, that the spirit of the antispamming principles shouldn't exclude us from linking to articles in the Embryo Project Encyclopedia. We aren't selling anything, we have no grant deliverables related to Misplaced Pages, nor do we bias our articles except to ensure that they they are accurate about their topics, as free from evaluation as possible, and verifiable.

Proposal

1) We'd like to designate a single Misplaced Pages account by which we'd post links on Misplaced Pages articles to articles in our encyclopedia. The one I'm using now works for that function.

2) We'd like that account to have limited immunity to the antispamming principle, in that it can be used to link to articles in the Embryo Project Encyclopedia, but no other website. Furthermore, the account can be used to link to Embryo Project Encyclopedia article only on relevant Misplaced Pages page. That way me might link to our Jacob article on Misplaced Pages's Jacob page and on it Pasteur Institute age, but not on the gauge physics page, for example.

3) We'd like other Wikimedians to be able to somehow see that limited immunity status of our account when they check our page edits.

4) We DON'T propose that such a limited-immunity account be indefeasible, and Wikimedians may still delete our links if they judge them inappropriate. We only seek to avoid deletions based on blanket application of the antispamming principle.

5) We propose a standard link syntax of:

• at the Embryo Project Encyclopedia

Example:

• Francois Jacob (1920-2013) at the Embryo Project Encyclopedia

Final Remarks Please treat our proposal as an initial step. No one on our editorial team has much experience with the policies and practices for Misplaced Pages, and we're not sure if our proposal maps on to Misplaced Pages's capabilities and policies. In one sense, we're not quite sure what to ask for, but given our explicit goal and the issue that prevents us from reaching it, we anticipate that you have ideas about how to move forward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Embryoproject (talk • contribs) 20:38, 10 October 2014‎ (UTC)

I suggest you contact relevant wikiprojects (probably WT:BIOG) and ask someone there to evaluate the proposal. The first step would be to see if people who edit in the area believe there would be some benefit. Johnuniq (talk) 23:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

•Will do. We appreciate your advice. Embryoproject (talk) 17:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't this this is impossible, but:

Your account appears to break WP rules as a role account - see WP:ROLE. It is essential that whatever account you use has a user page that fully explains who you are and what you are doing. Yours is not yet set up.

You should look at User:WilliamDigiCol/Working page 2014 for a good way to manage this - "review" of proposed links by an established Wikipedian with no COI (myself in that case). Mind you, though I've looked at some of your articles and think they are worth linking to, they are not in the same class as PDF books from the Metropolitan Museum. The Khan Academy have also very many external links, but placed by Wikipedians with no COI issues. Your articles might well meet WP:RS, but not I think WP:MEDRS for medical articles. Johnbod (talk) 20:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose "We'd like that account to have limited immunity to the antispamming principle", in other words, you want an official license to spam. Absolutely not. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• Out of the five proposals only (#5) looks sensible. We could probably have a template for this. However since the license is compatible, material from the Embryo Encyclopedia could be used here. The target audience may differ however, so that editing may be required. Also User:Embryoproject please change your name to represent a person eg User:Francois Jacob at Embryoproject. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• One example is Neurocristopathy that could be expanded from http://embryo.asu.edu/pages/neurocristopathies. But unfortunately there are no foot notes, just unsorted sources, so it would be a fair bit of work to get up to Misplaced Pages standard for sourcing. An interested project should look at embryo pages that are worth using. The Embryo encyclopedia could take some more of the good ideas from Misplaced Pages. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The licence isn't actually compatible if it is CC-BY-NC-SA , as Misplaced Pages uses just CC-BY-SA. ie, any reuse by us would violate the -NC-SA (non-commercial share-alike) provisions, as we would be publishing under a different licence that allows commercial reuse. - Evad37  11:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

You are right, I have struck out that part of my comment! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages allows people who want to place an external link, but have a conflict of interest, to place said link on the talk page of an article (WP:ADV). That way a second, neutral editor can check the usefulness of the link and place it on the article for you. No special permission is needed to do this, and you could start anytime you want. Maybe acompany the sugested external link with a text explaining the link. You could make a standard text for this. Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 12:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
• Your third item is problematic: We'd like other Wikimedians to be able to somehow see that limited immunity status of our account when they check our page edits. Editors that see a dubious link will often remove it without checking the history to see who placed it, especially if there have been many intervening edits or the editor is purging an accumulation of dubious links from one article. A technical solution might be to set up a template similar to {{IMDb title}} (as used in Embryo (film), for example). Editors might be more likely to leave such links alone, understanding that the existence of such a template implies community approval of such links. Of course, you'd still have to gain that prior approval. NebY (talk) 12:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the input, everyone. It greatly clarified things for me. We'll pursue at least the following tasks:

o) I already requested a username change for my account.

i) We'll use the talk function on specific Misplaced Pages pages to ask editors to review our articles and link to them.

ii) We'll develop a user page that is similar to User:WilliamDigiCol/Working page 2014 as a means to systematically ask established wikipedians without COIs to approve external links to our pages.

iii) We'll look to establish a template for external links along the form of IMDB.

Given all of that, and I'm sorry to ask a simple question, but how do I find established Wikimedians in broad subject fields? Once found, do I propose to them a template for external links, or should I pursue other means?Embryoproject (talk) 22:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Welcome, Embryoproject. You can find some interested people at WP:WikiProject Anatomy, WP:WikiProject Medicine, and WP:WikiProject Physiology. Leave a note on the talk pages for these groups, and then check back later see if anyone has replied. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• See Category:Embryology, Reinventing the wheel. Suggest asking your funding bodies: the National Science Foundation, Arizona State University, Center for Biology and Society, the Max Planck Institute for the History of Science in Berlin, and the MBL WHOI Library to contribute funds to Misplaced Pages. That would be a Win Win situation. --Aspro (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal Trusted Tester user group

On 20:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC) I suggested WMF to create "trusted testers" user group. Someone from WMF called that a good suggestion. After that, I don't know what happened.

I can see someone has started an RFC in this page on MediaViewer. I clearly support that RFC, but, I am too reluctant to write there. Does WMF care?

Anyway, currently when WMF makes a change (call it VisualEditor, MediaViewer etc.), it is forced on all/thousands of editors and for next many weeks, hundreds of editors report dozens of errors, and WMF keep on fixing/improving those.

Can't we create a "trusted tester" (TT) user group like Google or Microsoft? The trusted testers (TT) will be the first editors to test a feature and report good" or "bad" or anything. --Tito☸Dutta 17:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there was any shortage of people testing MediaViewer - the complaints about it started when it was in beta and have not stopped to this day. One of the biggest problems with MediaViewer is that it's been imposed not without consultation with the community, but rather over the community's vigorous protests. I'm not sure why we need a separate "Trusted Tester" user class when people can always opt in to the beta features from the WMF labs. 0x0077BE 17:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree, no need for a usergroup that gets forced features that can just be handled by opt-in. I don't see a problem where "unauthorized" testers were using beta features that caused harm. — xaosflux 18:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The reply said:

"That's a good suggestion :). I know that Erik (Eloquence) is very keen on the idea of deploying things in a beta on enwiki, in future, rather than testing elsewhere; hopefully this will allow us to discover problems 'natively' before they become a problem for many users. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)"

Beta came six months later: Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)/Archive 120#Introducing Beta Features and Media Viewer. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I see no benefit from a user right here. There is already far too much software-enforced hierarchy. If a group of "neutral" testers is to be identified so that "people who just want to find fault in everything" can be ignored, you can do that socially. To deny random users the opportunity to test and comment on beta features before they are made mandatory would be yet another major step backward in terms of community input. Wnt (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

"Notable residents"

I suggest that any person who is listed as a "notable resident" (or similar) in any article should be removed from the article unless that person has an article named for them. There are far too many of these "notable residents" who are mentioned in many articles without justification. If they don't have an article named for them then they are not notable and therefore not "notable residents". Jodosma (talk) 19:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm amenable to a third-party source discussing the individual as an indicator of notability, but if there's no article or sourcing, I can't imagine why they'd be listed. DonIago (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

All over Misplaced Pages individuals are mentioned as if they are "notable", e.g. in articles about colleges or schools or minor authorities (councils and the like), the tutors and senior members of the staff (or council) are often mentioned, in many cases stated in the article as being "notable", as if the statement that they are notable makes them notable. I would like to remove all of these if they don't have an article named for them. When these people are named then the person naming them should first of all create the article about them. This kind of thing also occurs in many articles about businesses or companies, with no justification. Jodosma (talk) 19:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it is fine if a no-article notable resident is listed along with a third-party reference that establishes their notability. This sort of entry aligns with WP:REDLINK, the expansion of the encyclopedia. Binksternet (talk) 22:13, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Binksternet. We do not tell WP:VOLUNTEERs that they must first create an article to be permitted to make a small improvement to another article. Your definition of WP:Notable is wrong: a person is notable when s/he qualifies for a separate article on the English Misplaced Pages. You can be notable for decades before anyone actually starts writing the article.

If there's no source for such an entry, then please find one yourself. If you're not willing to make that much effort, then add a {{fact}} tag, and check back in a couple of months (yes, months, not days) to see whether anyone has done so. Don't just blank them because you don't like them and can't see the value in them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If red links obviously merit an article leave them. In most cases they do not and should be removed there and then.Charles (talk) 22:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Red links in articles are different than those found in links lists. The ones in articles probably have a chance of being expanded someday, probably by the person who put it there to begin with. Lists are different, however. Any name can (and repeatedly are) added to lists that are never, ever going to be notable, or are actually tagging/vandalism. If they are in a list, the name, item, or whatever needs at least a reliable source citation if there is not an existing article in Misplaced Pages. Red links in wiki-lists are meaningless. PS: "Notable Residents" sections are, imo, list sections. GenQuest 23:30, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The Notability standard only applies to creating an article. The standard for including information in an article is a lot lower. Alsee (talk) 10:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, many of these additions are supposedly living people. I say supposedly because they could be someone's boyfriend, dog, worst enemy, whatever. With no sources we simply don't know and such entries may be WP:BLP violations if not simply promotional. A fact tag isn't enough to prevent a BLP violation. Dougweller (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that they are essentially lists, which on Misplaced Pages are advised to have inclusion criteria so they don't become indiscriminate, and all content on Misplaced Pages is required to be verifiable. Often content in lists is verifiable via the bluelink, so if an entry in this sort of list is redlinked or not linked at all, it is probably non-verifiable and should be flagged; however Dougweller is right that such entries in lists of people are likely enough to be information about living persons (who are alive unless confirmed deceased) which is to be removed immediately if not verifiable. You may also be interested in WikiProject Laundromat which is aimed at cleaning up such lists. Ivanvector (talk) 16:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

If someone wants to put a non-linked name in a list, it is incumbent on them to show why that name belongs on the list. Otherwise, it is OR and should be immediately removed as such. Lists inclusions are different from inclusions in articles; per the the comments above. GenQuest 01:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not OR. "Original research" involves material that has never been published, anywhere on the planet, at any time. "Uncited" is what we call material that someone has added without showing why that name belongs on the list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I should've also included "Uncited" above, as both apply. In either case, those entries can be removed immediately, no tagging necessary, per BLP. GenQuest 22:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion appears not to consider the situation where a good, referenced source document says "Bloggs, Smith and Jones did a very important thing (X)" but only Bloggs and Smith have WP articles, AND Jones was otherwise so non-notable that no WP article for him is even likely. IMHO his name (without a redlink) belongs in the articles for Bloggs and Smith (and for X if it has one) It also belongs (with ref but no redlink) in a list of people related to X, or of people in an occupational group etc related to X. Downsize43 (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Blank or Delete the User Talk Pages of: Users Who are Banned Indefinitely, Users who are Revoked Talk Page Access Indefinitely, Accounts Associated with those who frequently attack Misplaced Pages

I was thinking if somebody designed a bot to blank un-used/unusable User Talk Pages (such as some of the ones referenced in the headline) it could save Misplaced Pages's servers some space in the long run (the content of the pages might add up, trolls might realize they could waste Wiki resources by creating a very large or resource intensive user talk page and then purposefully get banned to decrease the likelihood of such content being deleted, etc). Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.188.243 (talk) 03:02, 16 October 2014

Actually, that would slightly increases storage usage. Blanked and deleted pages are still stored in history (even if that history isn't visible to normal users). The proposed edit would just be adding to the page history. Alsee (talk) 10:41, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

A blanking might remove other things like link table and search index entries. I don't know the net effect but see Misplaced Pages:Don't worry about performance. It's best to keep the talk page content if some of their actions are examined later. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, indefinite blocks are not necessarily perpetual; they just don't expire automatically. It's not unusual for an editor to appeal an indefinite block and return to making valuable contributions. They should be able to do so with their talk pages intact. Furthermore, some editors return by socking; old talk pages help us deal with that. NebY (talk) 11:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@67, you may discusss this if you wish, but you are not permitted to unilaterally implement your proposal. I just reverted a change you made to a blocked (not banned) user.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:00, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

We used to do this, but stopped as it was kind of pointless. Mr.Z-man 15:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Bad idea. It makes it more difficult to handle (and report handling) long term abuse by not-logged-in editors and by sockpupperts, if we cannot point to the user who was blocked and the reasons he/she/it was blocked. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I support doing nothing at all. Just let them exist, and do nothing about them. --Jayron32 23:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

This looks like an example of the classic "solution in search of a problem", thus it's pointless. Indefinite ≠ Permanent. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:51, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

TWL volunteers needed

The Misplaced Pages Library is seeking volunteer Account Coordinators to help manage new and ongoing partnerships. We are interested in having both active local volunteers and those with cross-wiki experience (particularly in non-English Wikipedias). It requires a commitment of a couple of hours per week, on average. To apply, visit Misplaced Pages:TWL/Coordinators/Signup. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Tables with collapsible columns

I would like to be able to collapse (hide) certain columns of tables, sometimes. For example, when I (double-)click on the third column on the following table ("Motor vehicles"), to hide the fourth and the fifth column, because the third column is the sum of the fourth and fifth. And then, if I click it again, to show them. Sometimes tables can have too many columns and then, when you first look at the table, some columns would be better to be hidden, in order for the reader to see the essential. Then, if the reader wants, they should be able to able the not-so-essential columns.

Did anyone think about implementing such a feature?

Vehicle production of SouthVulcania (millions):

—  Ark25  (talk) 22:23, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Judging from MediaWiki:Common.js, section Collapsible tables, it should be possible with a little Javascript, but implementation will need a fair bit of testing. Adam Cuerden 10:35, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I would find it useful. Keep in mind, per MOS, that columns should be open initially, but I could see value in giving the reader the option to close some columns. Please also note that in the case of a sortable table, one sorts simply by clicking on the column heading, so it the table is to be sortable and allow column hiding, one have to think through how to do each option separately.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:56, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Repeal Misplaced Pages:Spam

At this instant, Misplaced Pages:Spam is severely undermined by the AfD-process. No matter how spammy an article is, they are hardly removed for that reason. A common reasoning with that is spam and advertising can be solved by normal editing, but nobody does the actual editing. Effect is that Misplaced Pages is slowly undermined by spammers and talking-but-not-acting-good-willing editors. latest example in my experience is Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mydala.

This makes WP:SPAM a hollow phrase and repealing it should be best. The Banner talk 05:17, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I hope I have addressed most of your concerns about the article with my recent copy edit of the piece. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Regards, GenQuest 08:38, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit but it happens so often. The Banner talk 09:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely oppose This proposal is like suggesting that because all burglars are not arrested red-handed at the scenes of their crimes, burglary should no longer be a crime. WP:SOFIXIT is the usual cure for failure to act on the result of discussion. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:12, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Strongest oppose, obviously. AfD is not cleanup. Respectfully, Banner made exactly two edits to Mydala: flagging it for speedy deletion (rejected with the note "not even close"), and flagging it for AfD, which was snow-closed as an obvious keep when not a single editor !voted delete. We have a speedy criteria for articles that are obvious spam, and as for the repeated failures of your nominations at AfD, maybe you should take it as an indicator of community consensus that your spamming of the process with apparent pattern of frivolous nominations is itself undermining AfD. Ivanvector (talk) 14:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

You are exactly using all the bogus arguments used in AfD's nominated as advertising in order to keep the spammy article. The Banner talk 15:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

But when I nominate an article for deletion as advertisement, I don't ask for clean up. I do ask for deletion. But nearly all the time I get replies as "AfD is not for clean up", something I am not asking for. The Banner talk 20:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Right. "AFD is not cleanup" means "If the article could be cleaned up don't nominate it for deletion." AFD is used primarily for articles whose subjects don't deserve a Misplaced Pages article. If the subject deserves an article, but the text of the article is substandard (i.e. it is "spammy") then AFD is inappropriate. --Jayron32 01:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The main problem is that after closure of such a AfD in most cases absolutely nothing happens and the dodgy and/or spammy article stays in place. With all the advertising problems, conflicting with WP:SPAM, still there. In effect, "AfD is not for clean up" acts as protecting promotion and advertising. By now, the only way to enforce WP:SPAM is by means of AfD or CSD and get the article removed, as the editing part to enforce WP:SPAM is hardly done. A policy without means to enforce it, is useless. The Banner talk 15:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

in most cases absolutely nothing happens WP:SOFIXIT applies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

If "nearly all the time" people tell you you're getting it wrong, try not doing the same thing again. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:32, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

User:The Banner refuses to listen to numerous editors who keep telling him the same thing (a list I documented in my sandbox and he had deleted, his only successful recent AfD). Almost daily he submits new articles to AfD, each without a WP:BEFORE, each with no editorial contributions by The Banner (to solve any of the problems he observes), each since I've been watching has been overturned. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." I guess it would be OK if he were to be insane in his own world, but he takes up the time and effort of a lot of other people in the course of all these frivolous AfDs. His behavior is tantamount to a serial vandal and I've monitored his activity accordingly. I've anticipated we might have to solve this with disciplinary action, but really all he needs is some instruction on how to use Google. He clearly knows how to edit. If he were to take the time he spends creating AfD entries, posting tags, citation needed remarks and arguing; and instead apply it to fixing the problems, he wouldn't be here whining to change policy and we wouldn't be here telling him he's wrong. Seriously, how do we make him listen? Trackinfo (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

New bot suggestion

I am not sure that this is the correct forum for such a suggestion. But I would like to suggest that a bot who combines duplicate references are created, such a bot would come in handy for editors who creates new articles or find it hard to combine references overall. One such bot is not operative at the present.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@BabbaQ: The venue you're looking for is WP:BOTREQ. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, sorry I found it right after posting here. Made a request there now. --BabbaQ (talk) 15:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for community input on IEG proposal: editor interaction data sets and visualizations

As you may have heard, Editor Interaction Data Extraction and Visualization is an individual engagement grant proposal. I am working on this proposal with volunteer assistance and advice from Aaron Halfaker (WMF), Haitham Shammaa (WMF), and Fabian Flöck (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology).

We would greatly appreciate your comments on whether you support or oppose the general concept of this project, and any suggestions about how to refine the proposal.

Additionally, we would like to hear from you about which sets of editor interaction data, and what visualizations of editor interaction data, would be most relevant to your interests. We intend to prioritize our outputs with your comments in mind.

Please comment on the proposal talk page. Questions and feedback, both positive and critical, are helpful to us as the proposers, and also help the Individual Engagement Grants Committee to assess the proposal.

Regards, --Pine 18:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I am a member of the Individual Engagement Grants Committee. I am recusing from reviewing proposals in this funding round.

Shortcut T for Template namespace

I see in this previous RFC there was a rejection of using "pseudo-namespace shortcuts" such as T: for Template: namespace. I didn't read the whole RFC but I do know that I get tired of typing "Template:" into the search box each time I want to find a template. The name space "T" is unused so I don't see why there can't be a change made where this could be implemented. Comments? ~Technophant (talk) 03:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

More reading material for you: Misplaced Pages:Perennial proposals#Create shortcut namespace aliases for various namespaces. When re-making a proposal for something that has already been repeatedly rejected, you really should address the reasons for it being rejected previously. Anomie⚔ 10:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

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