Revision as of 19:22, 20 October 2014 editCarolmooredc (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,944 edits →Analysis of evidence: removal of minor, possibly debatable, correction which was irrelevant to objection in my evidence that TKOP's very first post was hostile; no other objections?← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:32, 20 October 2014 edit undoCarolmooredc (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,944 edits →Submission by Johnunique: fixed user name; comment on pronounsNext edit → | ||
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===Submission by |
===Submission by Johnunique=== | ||
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:*Regarding false accusations by the current leaders of the ] (IAC), |
:*Regarding false accusations by the current leaders of the ] (IAC), Johnunique fails to ''identify properly'' the relevant Jimbo Wales talk page ] thread. At it Sitush and ] argued over Sitush's support for using the “C-word” and Jimbo Wales message to Sitush on Sitush's talk page is discussed. Sitush mentioned the IAC “porn” accusations in his reply to Wales as he had recently at this WP:ANI. He infers IAC might drive him to quit. I write (mistakenly as it turns out) that he misread the mentioned IAC link and it’s not a reason to quit. Johnunique objected to my bringing up an allegation Sitush has just discussed twice very publicly at Wales page and here. If Sitush and Johnunique want the allegation kept quiet, they shouldn’t mention it repeatedly. | ||
:*Re: complaint about my message on the Evidence talk page. Admin Bishonen wrote that the Evidence Analysis section of Workshop, not the Evidence talk page, was the place to bring up Evidence concerns. Yet in the posting immediately following her comment, User:Voceditenore brought up an evidence issue. I reminded him of what she had said. Given |
:*Re: complaint about my message on the Evidence talk page. Admin Bishonen wrote that the Evidence Analysis section of Workshop, not the Evidence talk page, was the place to bring up Evidence concerns. Yet in the posting immediately following her comment, User:Voceditenore brought up an evidence issue. I reminded him of what she had said. Given Johnunique’s subsequent complaint about this, I did answer answer Voceditenore’s question on the Evidence talk page. <small>'''] (])'''</small> 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC) | ||
:'''Comment by others:''' | :'''Comment by others:''' | ||
::The evidence referred to above by Carolmooredc is from ] not "JohnUnique". And for the record, I am a "she", as clearly indicated on my user page. ] (]) 08:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC) | ::The evidence referred to above by Carolmooredc is from ] not "JohnUnique". And for the record, I am a "she", as clearly indicated on my user page. ] (]) 08:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC) | ||
:::Thanks, I've corrected Johnunique's user name. I don't think there's a requirement we find out the gender of every editor before we mention them or use s/he and him/her at all times. Also, last time I looked at the Arbitration clarification page, Arbitrators were ruling we don't even have to use the preferred pronoun. ''However,'' when I happen to find out someone is a woman, I try to use the proper pronoun, assuming it's no so much later I completely forget who is what. <small>'''] (])'''</small> 19:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC) | |||
===Submission by Drmies=== | ===Submission by Drmies=== |
Revision as of 19:32, 20 October 2014
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Purpose of the workshop: The case Workshop exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post possible components of the final decision for review and comment by others. Components proposed here may be general principles of site policy and procedure, findings of fact about the dispute, remedies to resolve the dispute, and arrangements for remedy enforcement. These are the four types of proposals that can be included in committee final decisions. There are also sections for analysis of /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case. Any user may edit this workshop page; please sign all posts and proposals. Arbitrators will place components they wish to propose be adopted into the final decision on the /Proposed decision page. Only Arbitrators and clerks may edit that page, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at fair, well-informed decisions. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being unnecessarily rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Behavior during a case may be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
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Eric Corbett's participation in the case, and in the project
Enough. Salvio 17:57, 19 October 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
1) Eric Corbett (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked for 48 hours for Gross incivility on 14 October. Then his talk page was protected for continued inappropriate use by Eric et. al. . Thus far Eric has also refused to restrain insults, when asked politely. Also, the way the block was as it were provoked by Eric, with an insult directed at Jimbo may deserve some scrutiny. 1.1 For good order it would probably be best to ask this participant of the current case whether or not he wants to defend his case here, and if not, agree to never dispute its outcome in a later stage. 1.2 Alternatively, if the participant only wants to defend his case under the provision he is free to use whatever banter he chooses, the temporary injunction would probably be best to impose a ban on Eric Corbett, so he can be struck as a participant to the case, and the current case can go its course without him. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:48, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
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Analysis of evidence
Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis
Submission by Two Kinds of Pork (TKOP)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Carolmooredc, I'm currently reading through this analysis. We've never yet had to put limits on the analysis of evidence similar to the limits placed on evidence, and I hope we don't have to start with this case. This section is not meant to be a way to respond to every piece of evidence (cases would never finish if that was the case, as the discussions would grow exponentially). The hope is that those presenting evidence are able to discuss and correct misunderstandings or errors in the evidence without the need for exhaustive analysis. Carcharoth (talk) 23:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Submisson link
TKOP states re: his comment on User:LawrencePrincipe’s "two revert" proposal: “I had no idea that the proposal had actually been implemented and removed from the project page.” My August 11 comment he links to actually said the proposal was “dismissed and removed” not “implemented”.- TKOP alleges I supported “mandatory sensitivity training” at this diff. A careful reading shows I am discussing how much space to give to “Do List” items. Under the bullet point "Spacewise" I write “Maybe someone else thinks the most important "Do" is....” This is followed by two speculative examples, one which I describe has having lots of support and the other - “mandatory sensitivity training” - as having far less support.
- These three TKOP examples of alleged personal attacks on other editors are my references to SPECIFICO Wikhounding me to GGTF, which I detailed in the Sept. 4 and Sept. 12 ANIs.
- These three TKOP examples of alleged personal attacks are my references to editors refusing to take seriously other GGTF editors’ right to express their opinions or their being badgered for it. As my evidence shows, I wasn’t the only one complaining about this badgering or wondering about their bad faith. (SPECIFICO wikihounding me at GGTF did necessitate some excessive replies by me.)
- Here is my explicit reply to a question in the thread TKOP quotes. He claims I did not answer it.
- TKOP states the Wikimedia Foundation pays editors in Misplaced Pages:India Education Program/Analysis/Independent Report from Tory Read. I see only a mention of their paying staff, which is not paying editors. Specific quotes help.
- “Carol canvassed wikimedia mailing lists” The strictly moderated Wikimedia Foundation run Gender Gap email list has been used to announce several GGTF projects. TKOP's first diff is an example. The second is a mention of the “Disruption of a Wikiproject” ANI. Frankly, given canvassing on the list hasn’t been an issue in over a year, it didn’t occur to me this might be a canvassing issue. I saw it as just an FYI on GGTF problems, ones similar to those the email list itself had faced months earlier. It was more a “commiseration posting”. In any case, most of the posters at the ANI who alleged disruptions were GGTF or WP:ANI regulars. And the ANI remedy was only a warning to act like Adults, so no harm was done. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:55, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
- User:Carcharoth: I think most of this does discuss and correct misunderstandings or errors in the evidence. And there was quite a bit of inaccurate evidence, not to mention duplicate diffs/evidence explained in different inaccurate ways. Most of it by editors who had no involvement in the situation at all which increased the inaccuracies. Sorry if I did throw in a bit too much context of why something was inaccurate or a few sentences of further analysis here and there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by Neotarf
- Carolmooredc, Carcharoth is correct, I can't follow this at all. For one thing, it is mis-formatted. For an example of how to format your section and submit proposals in it, a good example might be Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes/Workshop, a case with a strong focus on conduct of multiple users. I really think, Carol, you need to erase this in some way, and start over, with proper formatting, a proper outline, and concrete principles and proposals.
- As for myself, even though I am uninvolved in this topic area, and have never been a member of this WikiProject, I have never been the target of so much templating, talkpage vandalism, and sheer nonsense as has resulted from the misfortune spinning out of the week I had this Wikiproject somehow on my watchlist. Misplaced Pages is suppose to be a hobby, but I have been beleaguered on multiple fronts. If you would excuse my further participation at this point, I really need to step back from the keyboard for a while. —Neotarf (talk) 01:16, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe one of the arbs, or one of the clerks should explain what this section is for and how to use it. Also, I see the evidence page is closed, but there is much written about me there that is incorrect and not supported by the diffs. Do I need to address this somehow or should I wait and see if anyone takes it seriously? —Neotarf (talk) 02:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- This is well organized compared to the last one I was in early 2014, with a hodgepodge of editors and sections and no arbitrators said there was anything wrong with it that time. (Lat time an Admin came along and told me just what you told me then a bunch of people came along and did just what I did above. Arbs never said a thing about formatting one way or the other.) Arb Guide gives no explanation.
- The best thing to do is just put your explanation of what was wrong in any evidence provided about you under the name of the individual who provided it. Or add the relevant name if someone said something I didn't reply to. You don't have dozens of misrepresented diffs to deal with like I did from a bunch of editors you've hardly had anything to do with. Or just do it anyway you like, like they did at that early 2014 arbitration. I don't think they'll be much more analysis anyway for Arbs to deal with. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:50, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- I've never been convinced that anyone reads these things. My current theory is that it's just a ploy to get the principles out of project space and all bouncing around screaming at each other in one place for a while. But don't tell anyone I said that. TKOP's evidence was unusually inaccurate though, even for one of these events; it wouldn't surprise me if this section got even longer. —Neotarf (talk) 03:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comments by Two kinds of pork
There is so much wrong with Carol's interpretations that it would take months of discussing the problems interspersed with wall-of-text replies by Carol. But let's take her first post as an example:
- TKOP states re: his comment on User:LawrencePrincipe’s "two revert" proposal: “I had no idea that the proposal had actually been implemented and removed from the project page.” My August 11 comment he links to actually said the proposal was “dismissed and removed” not “implemented”.
First of all, there is no Aug 11 comment by Carol saying the proposal was dismissed and removed. The diff above she presents is mine. Carol attempted to make my objection to the proposal as an example of disruption or my objection was overblown because I should have realized that the proposal was at one time on the main page and subsequently removed. NO WHERE on the section in question says anything like this. At best, this example is Carol using diffs selectively as a sword and a shield depending upon her needs at the time. At worst, this is an attempt at obfuscation by muddying the waters and drowning the conversation by the massive responses she has generated so far. Above an arbitrator mentions their concern about having limits on replies here. Your concerns are not without merit, but limits should be strongly considered ASAP. As for my responses here, I pledge I will do my best to reply infrequently and to be concise.Two kinds of porkBacon 05:54, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Reply: I actually should have left out that minor, possibly debatable, correction which was irrelevant to objection in my evidence that TKOP's very first post was hostile. No other objections? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by Carrite
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- Submission link
- Re: “Identity politics and battleground behavior”: Carrite only quotes one very early exchange between SlimVirgin and Obiwankenobi discussing the primacy of women on the Wikiproject and creating “safe space.” I neither remember, nor see evidence that, those ideas/wordings were proposed again. However, encouraging enforcement of existing WP:Civility and WP:Wikihounding policy did come up repeatedly.
- Re: “Both sides have engaged in combative behavior” - he only presents a link to all edits to GGTF of two editors who could be characterized on being "on the same side". He presents no evidence that the other side "engaged in combative behavior." Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
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Submission by Johnunique
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- Submission link.
- Regarding false accusations by the current leaders of the India Against Corruption (IAC), Johnunique fails to identify properly the relevant Jimbo Wales talk page “Why is Misplaced Pages sexist” thread. At it Sitush and User:BrownHairedGirl argued over Sitush's support for using the “C-word” and Jimbo Wales message to Sitush on Sitush's talk page is discussed. Sitush mentioned the IAC “porn” accusations in his reply to Wales as he had recently at this WP:ANI. He infers IAC might drive him to quit. I write (mistakenly as it turns out) that he misread the mentioned IAC link and it’s not a reason to quit. Johnunique objected to my bringing up an allegation Sitush has just discussed twice very publicly at Wales page and here. If Sitush and Johnunique want the allegation kept quiet, they shouldn’t mention it repeatedly.
- Re: complaint about my message on the Evidence talk page. Admin Bishonen wrote that the Evidence Analysis section of Workshop, not the Evidence talk page, was the place to bring up Evidence concerns. Yet in the posting immediately following her comment, User:Voceditenore brought up an evidence issue. I reminded him of what she had said. Given Johnunique’s subsequent complaint about this, I did answer answer Voceditenore’s question on the Evidence talk page. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- The evidence referred to above by Carolmooredc is from Johnuniq not "JohnUnique". And for the record, I am a "she", as clearly indicated on my user page. Voceditenore (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've corrected Johnunique's user name. I don't think there's a requirement we find out the gender of every editor before we mention them or use s/he and him/her at all times. Also, last time I looked at the Arbitration clarification page, Arbitrators were ruling we don't even have to use the preferred pronoun. However, when I happen to find out someone is a woman, I try to use the proper pronoun, assuming it's no so much later I completely forget who is what. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:32, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- The evidence referred to above by Carolmooredc is from Johnuniq not "JohnUnique". And for the record, I am a "she", as clearly indicated on my user page. Voceditenore (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Submission by Drmies
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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- Submission link
- Re: "User:J3Mrs”, see her section below.
- Re: my statement “Some diffs indicate Sitush blames Sue Gardner’s initiative...” In Sitush second diff the topic was Jimmy Wales saying the Foundation would be “doubling down” on what Sitush calls "Gardner’s failed systemic bias intiative”. Increasing the number of women in Misplaced Pages, the gender gap initiative, was her best known one, widely covered in media. The other two diffs are of my interpretation of his comments and Arbitrators can ignored them. I was vaguely aware there was a separate “IEP” - India Education Program. But I do know the Indian women’s gender gap project did a lot of workshops and edit-a-thons.
- Drmies writes: "Sitush's beef was with Carolmooredc as an editor, not with her as a member of some task force or other.” However, in evidence I report this diff where Sitush writes: "Which is why that Gender Gap Task Force is so dodgy, especially when what seems to be its primary cheerleader (see WT:GGTF), Carolmooredc, is indeed a militant feminist and social activist for 'right-on' causes of the 60s and 70s." His other negative comments about the project, his defending use of the "C-Word" on Wales talk page, his leaving the "Twatt, Orley" message on the talk page of a GGTF participant who objected to Corbett's use of the c-word, all show he has a real battleground attitude towards the project itself and not just towards me. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by J3Mrs
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- Submission link
- Re: my "Blame Game?" posting on your talk page on September 27. It was a poorly worded attempt to express my distress with what I felt was “pile on” harassment by you in the aftermath of the Sitush harassment biography incident and ongoing ANI. However, instead of the tete a tete I expected, a bunch of your page watchers joined and demanded diffs. Per your request I provided diffs illustrating my complaint..
- I did apologize for bringing up some vaguely remembered 3 month old comment or joke, probably from someone's talk page.
- However, I do believe a proper query was in order, and if I hadn't been so off balance from harassment I would have asked something like: “I feel you have been harassing and blaming me for all current problems in the GGTF/civility area. I notice you are close friends with Eric Corbett who also lives in Manchester. You have 377+ edits to his talk page. So I’m wondering if there’s some sort of WP:conflict of interest here we need to discuss.” Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by Robert McClenon
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- Submission link
- While I think Robert McClenon's motivation for requesting the Arbitration was sincere, I was disappointed at his recycling others' evidence. I did mention on his talk page that I had a couple of errors he might check for. (These were corrected for this Arbitration). I advised he should review everything. His then crossing out a lot of links that I believe are self-explanatory and relevant only adds confusion to the case. However, they don't undermine proper use of these links elsewhere. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by Sitush
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- Submission link
- In my evidence I show diffs indicating Sitush pushed for this Arbitration, in part, by violating policy to annoy me and start a brouhaha regarding his biography of me. He has expressed his desire to see me site banned.
- However, the only evidence he provides is my imperfect recent behavior of the last few weeks after he a) wrote an attack bio on me that b) lead to an Admin suggesting an interaction ban at WP:ANI where c) he repeated his desire for this Arbitration to be used against me. (The controversy and confusion about a certain redacted statement coming on top of that.)
- Sitush inaccurately describes as “wild assumptions” a) Sitush's meandering exposition that starts with his rejecting a two-way interaction ban of me and may or may not contain relevant diffs; b) my original assumption that I struck after review of evidence; a link to my general comment against Wikihounding in another matter.
- Sitush says I ignore “correct process” because he “had my clean block log spoiled because of a drive-by admin who did not realise context of both on- and off-wiki harassment.” If by that he means that those who have been baited and harassed have to be cut some slack, I agree - if they over-react to the actual harasser and not punish third parties who annoy them at the moment. By Sitush’s lights I should deserve no sanction for my less than perfect reactions to his extreme harassment. And I agree.
- Sitush describes as “behavioral problems” a) a link to my frustration about the Arbitration he pushed so hard for. I mention some of the silly issues that might be raised. The IAC sockpuppets did come along as I predicted. Also, my apology to Arbitrator Salvio giuliano for misreading his comment on LawrencePrincipe’s two-revert proposal which had been used falsely to beat on the GGTF in a number of forums.posting and c) a link per dispute resolution where I went to an editor’s talk page to explain to her that she was mischaracterizing in many forums a misunderstanding (for which I immediately apologized) as a hostile accusation. I provided ample diffs and asked her to stop do it. The diff Sitush provided makes this very clear. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by Iridescent
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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- Submission link
- Iridescent claims two of my statements are untrue.His first diff links to a User:Tarc talk page entry where we discuss Tarc's ANI comment about Sitush saying he would follow me around like SPECIFICO did. I express my frustrated opinion on Sitush's harassment and motivation. (Sitush jumps in and tells me to “piss off.”)
- Iridescent's second claim is this long biography-related thread on Sitush's talk page. Sitush makes a vague and, to me, very “snitchy” accusation of criminal-sounding behavior; after two attempts I find out he’s referring disparagingly to an open act of civil disobedience I did in the 1980s and wrote about at an advocacy organization’s site. He claims it's for his biography of me - admitting it might not be a reliable source. In my opinion, it's Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information which reads in relevant part: Posting of personal information: The fact that a person either has posted personal information or edits under their own name, making them easily identifiable through online searches, is not an excuse for "opposition research". Dredging up their off line opinions to be used to repeatedly challenge their edits can be a form of harassment, just as doing so regarding their past edits on other Misplaced Pages articles may be.
- Re: complaint about my "sources." I agree, I should not have mentioned a confused memory of 3 month old comment on some user talk page. As for private emails, we are not supposed to divulge who wrote what. In any case, they did not reveal anything I did not also read on Misplaced Pages talk pages on a second or third re-read. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by RegentsPark
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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- Submission link
- RegentsPark writes: “she seems to be obsessed with Sitush”. No, Sitush has been obsessed with me. Why else would he put all that energy into writing a biography of me that he claimed was good work! He argued it shouldn’t be deleted and was so obsessed he ignored an Arbitrator telling him not to do it and endured six talk page threads of editors telling him it was a terrible idea. Only then did he move it to neutral space. His obsession lead to extreme battleground behavior. I'm still coping with the negative emotional effects of it.
- RegentsPark presents two diffs of complex Arbitration-related issues I brought up on the Evidence talk page. That is allowed and they were dealt with.
- Re: threats versus Sitush: As a 20 year legal secretary in Washington DC, in the absence of actual evidence, I can't claim knowledge of a crime after seeing only vague allegations of what even others also assumed was some sort of physical threat. I had over a 1000 death threats by a well-known long term abuser through the Wikimedia mail system, which it still took many email discussions and six months to deal with. I wouldn't like to see someone who had not done something like that to Sitush be accused without evidence. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Submission by TParis
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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- Submission link.
- TParis’s comment did help me tweak my evidence. Sitush first WP:ANI comment - “I do wish I could demonstrate it here without outing you.” - indicates that in his mind he was contemplating what he then considered outing. The second one was not technically outing: “Carolmooredc is not easily intimidated, as should be obvious from her website that she one linked to via her userpage and from the subject areas that she chooses to edit on Misplaced Pages.” However, Sitush's comment demonstrates contemptuous violation of Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information which I quoted above regarding "dredging up their off line opinions".
- That policy paragraph continues: However, if individuals have identified themselves without redacting or having it oversighted, such information can be used for discussions of conflict of interest (COI) in appropriate forums. Sitush should have done a WP:COIN or even done an WP:RfC/U instead of violating policy, again, in my opinion, to push for Arbitration.
- Finally, Sitush's second statement also is problematic because he mentions my not being intimidated as if it’s a bad thing. Isn't intimidation itself a bad thing and an aspect of battleground behavior? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:55, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
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Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
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Template
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General discussion
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