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::::::Discussion was not about the revert, but the content you were adding. Remember that this page is under 0 revert restriction. Only those changes can be added, where you have achieved consensus. See ]. There was consensus to put under restriction, which has been accomplished. Now as for categorization, there is none. ] (]) 05:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC) ::::::Discussion was not about the revert, but the content you were adding. Remember that this page is under 0 revert restriction. Only those changes can be added, where you have achieved consensus. See ]. There was consensus to put under restriction, which has been accomplished. Now as for categorization, there is none. ] (]) 05:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
::::::::The archived discussion was not about the content that was . ] (]) 05:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC) ::::::::The archived discussion was not about the content that was . ] (]) 05:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
{{od|:::::::}}There was not consensus for 0RR there were multiple objections. There is substantial evidence to indicate ayurveda is pseudoscience and there not an indication of serious academic dispute of that. Ayurveda is generally considered pseudoscience, this is supported with both direct sources and a preponderance of sources. Per pseudoscience sanctions it may be characterized that way. Objection should be based on policy and sources provided. {{cite book |editor-last1= Semple |editor-first1= David |editor-last2= Smyth |editor-first2= Roger |title= Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry |year= 2013 |publisher= ] |isbn= 9780191015908 |page= }} cites ayurveda literally as a textbook example of pseudoscience which "''confuse'''' the metaphysical with empirical claims''". Notable science journalist ] , "One area of non-western science that many western medics and scientists say is nothing more than pseudoscientific claptrap is Ayurvedic medicine." These are two sources that clearly support that ayurveda is generally considered pseudoscience, thus it should be characterized that way per the sanctions. - - ] (]) 05:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

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Ayurveda received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Can you add a new section on here called (Ayurveda meets Nanotechnology)

"Two India-born scientists have embarked on a new fundamental shift in cancer therapy with no side effects, radiation and chemotherapy by using several of the anicent Ayurvedic concoctions (native to india) and nanotechnology. Pharmaceuticals Ltd has explianed the process of which The nanoparticles will be crushed to about one thousandth of the width of human hair then injected into the body where they bind to the surface of cancer cells. Being metal and mildly radioactive, they slowly burn the offending cells to extinction. http://www.lef.org/news/lefdailynews?NewsID=1147792.236.96.38 (talk) 08:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

I am Not happy with The information from (Efficacy) section on this page taking words out of context from cancer reserach page

Who ever created The (Efficacy) section on here is taking words out of content from the cancer research page, The cancer research page has stated that it has shown possitive effects and even scientist in america have tested some of the compounds while stating possitive to slowing down cancer, The Efficacy section needs total editing if you wish to keep it!

"More than 200 herbs and plants are used in Ayurvedic medicine. Some early laboratory and animal research suggests that compounds taken from traditional Ayurvedic medicines may be able to slow the growth of cancer in animals. Although this early research looks promising, there is no evidence that Ayurvedic herbal medicines can prevent, treat or cure cancer in humans. We won't really know whether Ayurvedic medicine is helpful in treating cancer until large randomised clinical trials have been carried out."

"Research is looking into whether some herbs or plant treatments used in Ayurvedic medicine could help to prevent or treat cancer.But we don't know much about some of the treatments that are part of Ayurvedic medicine, such as special diets and herbal remedies. These treatments could be harmful to your health or interfere with your conventional treatment"

"Research has found that some aspects of Ayurvedic medicine can help to relieve cancer related symptoms and improve quality of life"

Withaferin A

In America in 2011 researchers took a compound called Withaferin A (WA) from the Ayurvedic medicinal plant Withania somnifera. They found that in the laboratory Withaferin A stopped the growth of some types of breast cancer cells. It also stopped the growth of breast cancer in mice. Several other studies support these findings.

Sanjeevani

An Indian study in 2011 looked at selaginella bryopteris, a traditional Indian herb referred to as Sanjeevani. It found that compounds taken from the herb stopped the growth of cancer cells in the laboratory. The compound also reduced the development of skin tumours in mice.

Indian frankincense

A US research study also in 2011 looked at acetyl-11-keto-beta-boswellic acid (AKBA) taken from the gum resin of the boswellia serrata known as salai guggal or Indian frankincense. Traditionally, this substance has been used in Ayurvedic medicine to treat inflammatory conditions. The researchers found that AKBA slowed the growth of bowel cancers in mice and made the cancer less likely to spread.

Mangosteen

The mangosteen fruit has a long history of medicinal use in Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. Recently, the compound alpha mangostin taken from the outside layer of the fruit was shown to kill various types of cancer cells in laboratory studies. This led Japanese researchers to test alpha mangostin in mice. The substance slowed the growth of breast cancer in mice and it was much less likely to spread to the lymph nodes.

Pomegranate

Pomegranate (Punica granatum) is seen as a sacred fruit in some world religions. Many cultures and systems of medicine, including Ayurvedic medicine, have used it for various health problems. Early research in the laboratory seems to show that pomegranate extracts may have anti cancer properties against prostate, bowel and liver cancer. But there are no studies so far looking at the use of pomegranate in humans.

MAK-4 and MAK-5

Some laboratory studies have looked at Ayurvedic herbal remedies called MAK-4 and MAK-5. The remedies seemed to show some activity in controlling tumours in rats and cancer cells in lab dishes. But there have been no studies in humans.92.236.96.38 (talk) 09:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

You are not allowed to copy from these websites. See Misplaced Pages:Copyright infringement. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

But you copied direct from this website to give the following: "There is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medicine for the treatment of any disease"

just asking myself why you never gave the full verse from that website which was:

"There is no evidence that Ayurvedic herbal medicines can prevent, treat or cure cancer in humans. We won't really know whtether Ayurvedic medicine is helpful in treating cancer until large randomised clinical trials have been carried out"

Just seems like the whole page has been casted into negativity just by that small verse placed at the very top and agian placed at the lower portion of the page, i mean you and i know that the chemicals found in Ayurvedic have shown results in combating cancer, so to have a section at the very top claiming (no scientific evidence for the effectiveness) has been found is a error, as i pointed out it has shown to be effective on cancer cells and that information came from the cancer reserach page.

Also To make this fair as this seems abit one sided, could we not make a page about Toxic metals used for western treatments and link it up with this page?

(toxic Mercury) is used in silver fillings across europe and america, it is one of the most common fillings used by children and adults, The fillings always leak mucury into the body just by chewing or brushing or even by inhaling, when the filling is taken out Mercury gives off vapour which can cause harm.as

Rice grown in the USA has an average "260 ppb of arsenic", also found in american drinking water. just think someone should even up the playing feild abit instead of just hammering the indian text over toxic metals which can be found in over 70 percent of the mouths in america and europe.92.236.96.38 (talk) 11:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

Copied? No it was rephrased! If you have got many issues to discuss, please discuss 1-by-1. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wiki at the top of every search term on google, it is Important that you give a fair write up of both possitive and negative in the section bellow

"There is no scientific evidence for the effectiveness of Ayurvedic medicine for the treatment of any disease.Concerns have been raised about Ayurvedic products; U.S. studies showed that up to 20% of Ayurvedic U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through internet contained toxic levels of heavy metals such as lead, mercury and arsenic."f

The bjp Of india asks If you can write the details on this page of the product used in the american studies, they wish to know what you mean by "Ayurvedic products" as this is too vague. Was it about herbal tea? massage oils? Medicine? natrual Food diet? If you do not have the details of products In the ref then please remove it and replace it with a more detailed information.

Avurveda is a blanket term for a wide variety of treatments, Thank you http://www.hindustantimes.com/lifestyle/wellness/scientists-find-potential-medicine-for-treating-arthritis/article1-1275762.aspx92.236.96.38 (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Hi. The sentence you quoted is supported by two references; the specific information you're looking for can be found at the cited sources. The lede shouldn't have too much detail, as it's meant to summarize the the article, but more detail can also be found in the Use of toxic metals section near the end of the article. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 18:54, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Dawn, The refs seem to point out that the use of toxic metals is only used and found in (Rasa Shastra) treatments. Ayurveda has two different ways of treatment..

1. (strict use of Herbs and non metals) 2. (The use of metals with herbs), known as (Rasa Shastra)

The summary should at least give account of the main points such as the type of Ayurveda that blends metals with herbs in the first place, I feel it is very misleading to give a negative summary of Ayurveda without giving the information of Rasa Shastra being the test study of the toxins, please edit the following as a example to the summary.

"Concerns have been raised about The use of Ayurvedic Products containing rasa shastra teatments; U.S. studies showed that up to 20% of Ayurvedic rasa Shastra Medicines From U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through internet had contained toxic levels of heavy metals such as lead, mercury and arsenic, this is not to be confused with The Strict herbal and non metal treatments of Ayurveda" cheers92.236.96.38 (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)caplock

No. The problem is not confined to Rasa Shastra, as is made clear in the body of the article. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Rasa shastra is the use of mixing metals with herbs/plants, the test found toxic metals mixed with herbs as one of the refs pointed out, the body of the ref talks about the toxics used and gives details on mercury,lead which is from Rasa Shastra as the Rasa Shastra wikipedia page states.

Well i will be placing (Rasa Shastra) in the summary this week, like it or lump i dont really care as the case of metals and herbs in Ayurveda is stated as (Rasa Shastra).

I will not add the following "this is not to be confused with The Strict herbal and non metal" but i am going to add (Rasa Shastra)Thank you and good day92.236.96.38 (talk) 21:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Eight components of Ayurveda

Dominus Vobisdu, You should know that every single citation that has been added to Ayurveda#Eight_components_of_Ayurveda cites reliable medical citation, falling well under Misplaced Pages:MEDRS, that is:- Literature reviews or systematic reviews published in reputable medical journals, academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant field and from a respected publisher, and medical guidelines or position statements from nationally or internationally recognised expert bodies.

Before making removal of longstanding, and highly commonly accepted content, you should consider analyzing every citation, that you have considered to be against Misplaced Pages:MEDRS. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Roxy the dog How about - . Information seems to be common, and non-disputed. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
e/c none of those comply. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 03:59, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://www.lef.org/news/lefdailynews?NewsID=11477
  2. http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-general/treatment/complementary-alternative/therapies/ayurvedic-medicine
I cannot see any reason to remove, since each of these sources falls under the Misplaced Pages:MEDRS. I cannot believe that you can seriously reject ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ as reliable source for meds, it has been used not only on other pages but also this page. Can you explain a bit more? Bladesmulti (talk) 04:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Nope. No way, no how. To make extraordinary assertions like this, you will need heavy-duty MEDRS sources stating that the predominant view among experts in real medicine is that this pseudoscientific claptrap can be compared to real medical specialties. And that just ain't gonna happen because most real physicians and scientists would vomit at the mere thought. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 04:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov is well enough for sourcing the whole above. Can you explain how it is not a heavy duty MEDRS ? Or you can cite even a single scientist who consider these as pseudoscientific?Bladesmulti (talk) 04:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Because it does not state that the predominant view among experts in real medicine is that this pseudoscientific claptrap can be compared to real medical specialties, as I said above.And the burden is on YOU, not on me. You're the one making extraordinary claims. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 04:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not, it is ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Are you saying that source has to explicitly state that it is predominant view among experts? Since it remains non-disputed, considerably cited by multiple MedRS, how will you justify? Bladesmulti (talk) 04:14, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Lets see, I cited Encyclopaedia Of Indian Medicine it has been also considered by http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7271/ the author, Ramachandra S.K. Rao had his journals published in ncbi.nlm.nih.gov(there are many, this is just 1 example). Do I have to explain each source now? Though these are enough. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Your lack of understanding of what "published" means is disappointing. That is not an example of Ramachandra having "his journals" published in ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 23:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Already told by many on Medical wikiproject that it wasn't even required to. So you lacked the understanding of using source from start. Bladesmulti (talk)

Dominus Vobisdu is just doing his daily rounds of puffing up his chest on wikipedia, The information that blade has cited is fine.92.236.96.38 (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock

Unexplained removal of terms on eight components

Roxy the dog, can you inform that how official guidelines disallow you to wikilink the technical terms at least once on the section? Also what's the reason behind removing the terms like Toxicology, Psychiatry, etc. When they are clearly supported by the reliable citations and there's clear consensus to include them. I am doubtful that why you are telling me to follow BRD, when I am already doing with this longstanding content.
Claiming that they are not equivalent is just part of your OR and ultimately because you don't like it. Are you saying that no one has written anything during 1000 BCE because writing of that time wasn't equivalent to current times? It's simply nonsensical, just like you have been told on wikiproject medicine. Will you consider providing a policy backed rationale? Bladesmulti (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

fwiw, i support the removal of those wikilinks. ayurveda is prescientific traditional medicine and what it may consider to be "toxicology" is unrelated to contemporary toxicology. the link in the article to a history section in the ophthalmology is appropriate; if there were history sections in toxicology, etc then links to those would be appropriate as well. i don't believe there is a policy that governs this one way or the other; it is just something editors working on the article, need to reason their way to a WP:CONSENSUS on. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog Every article must adhere to basic policies, and none of the wikilinking policy would support the removal. Consensus has been already established for this longstanding content. Everything differs from each other, no subject is 100% identical to other. Every single reliable citation that has been to the article provides those exact terms and meanings.
So you are saying that if they have history section then only it would be appropriate? Sounds resolute, hopefully if you agree with so, I can create for each, ofcourse with the balance and recognition of every other origin. Knowing that very of those categorized articles are short, tag bombed and some of them looks like a list. It maybe easy to expand (e.g. toxicology, read or (Ayurvedic origins), (ancient Greece), pediatrics).
For now, can you link surgical(#3) to History of surgery#India? Bladesmulti (talk) 03:02, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
as i wrote above, as far as i can see there is no policy that is definitive on having these specific wikilinks or not having them. If you believe there is a policy or guideline that makes it clear that the wikilinks should be there, please provide it. if you cannot provide one, please acknowledge that this is a discussion about preferences, or perhaps, our best judgement, and stop waving policy around. That would make the discussion more straightforward. btw, is there some reason you are asking me to create the wikilink, instead of doing it yourself? Jytdog (talk) 03:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
There is, no page for specific medical terms though. I thought I am about to cross 3rr as I have been reverted 2 times for that pointed content. I shall wait for few hours, by then I will probably discover other history sections. Bladesmulti (talk)
hmm, are you saying that the average reader doesn't know what "surgery" is? Linking to the main "surgery" article seems rather like WP:OVERLINK to me. Do you see what i mean? linking to History_of_surgery#India makes a bunch more sense, with respect to providing a link to related information elsewhere, per UNDERLINK. does that make sense? i'll implement that one. Jytdog (talk) 03:54, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
How about we remove the edition of the word 'medicine' from this article because this medicine is not equivalent to many of the modern medicines, and some other traditional medicines that came later. Forgetting that they played pioneering role along with other ancient civilizations that directly influenced the modern medical specialties. VandVictory (talk) 02:21, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Equivalents in applicable history or alternative medicine should apply, as with History_of_surgery#India. --Ronz (talk) 15:43, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

worldwide spread

In this dif, i removed the content: "In last few decades Ayurveda has spread around the world" which was sourced from:

  1. Healing Your Life: Lessons on the Path of Ayurveda. 2012. p. 7. Written by Marc Halpern, Published by Lotus Press, year 2012 and
  2. "Textbook of Pharmacognosy and Phytochemistry", Written by Biren Shah, page 455, published by Elsevier, year 2009,

The sentence is nonencylopedic (last decades from what date?) and pretty promotional too. For that kind of claim we need independent sources - something like the WHO. Both sources provided are within the tradition and not the kind of thing we should rely on for a strong claim like this. Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. It's puffery without clearly independent and reliable sources. --Ronz (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Well put Jytdog. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Going forward

I was asked to take a look at this. Here's what I am proposing from now on.

  • No reverts, at all, for any reason other than obvious vandalism. There should be no reason to do this. WP:0RR.
  • No name-calling, however mild, from either side. No use of terms like "quack" or "censorship", including in edit summaries, or any reference to any editor's supposed affiliations or motivations. There should be no reason for anyone to do this either. Any legitimate complaints about editor behaviour can be referred to me or to WP:AN/I, in that order of preference.
  • Any major changes to the article must be agreed here in talk beforehand. Discussions may be referred to central noticeboards like WP:NPOVN or to WP:RFC, in fact I encourage this.

All participants here are assumed to be aware of these restrictions; I'll ping all the main players as well. Any breaches of these conditions will be met with escalating blocks, without further warnings being given. Anybody unhappy with these proposals is welcome to take it up with me at my talk and if they are unhappy with my response to take it to WP:AN/I. --John (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for proposing this but I think 0RR is not a good idea. I think much better would be that WP:BRD be made mandatory, for some set period of time. We still want to allow editors to be bold or the article will stagnate. So better, would be that bold edits are allowed, and one subsequent revert is allowed and no more, so that the normal WP:BRD cycle unfolds. If the subsequent discussion doesn't achieve consensus, normal dispute resolution processes can unfold. Does that make sense? The rest of it seems fine to me, especially heightened civility requirements. Jytdog (talk) 21:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
See below. It is better not to revert disputed material but to seek a compromise edit. --John (talk) 22:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
I think 1RR would be better. 0RR encourages people to argue over what exactly a "revert" entails. There are some administrators who think that if you edit the work of another in any fashion that can be construed as a revert. To avoid this kind of pointless arguing over semantics, 1RR helps a lot over 0RR. jps (talk) 23:18, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
i had been willing to lend a hand providing even handed help but these are not conditions i find reasonable. am taking this page off my watchlist. Jytdog (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Agree I have noticed many editors on this page, do take time to discuss and then make changes. It is important especially on contentious edits be discussed on Talk page and then make the changes. Prodigyhk (talk) 04:35, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

A concern

I appreciate that this article would benefit from a firm hand, John, but:

  1. Are you proposing these restrictions, or imposing them? You start by saying it's a proposal, but end by saying that people who break your rules will be blocked.
  2. I'm sure these rules are well-intentioned; but with a zero revert rule, anybody can add problematic or WP:FRINGE content to the article and it'll stay permanently. This restriction seems incompatible with BRD.
  3. Is there some good reason that concerns about behaviour, or about your rules, should be referred to you rather than to the community? The effect of that would be more like ownership. I would prioritise using this talkpage, and community noticeboards, instead of your talkpage.

bobrayner (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

1 Both.
2 No, there are other far more effective measures for dealing with material you are unhappy with than reverting. Read Misplaced Pages:Revert only when necessary some time.
3 I ask you to raise concerns about editor behaviour with me first as a courtesy but of course you may take them to any other administrator or to the community if you prefer. You may not raise them here though, or in an edit summary. The article improvement discussion needs to happen in a separate place from any editor conduct discussions necessary. Again, this is to facilitate collegial discussion here rather than edit-warring and name-calling. --John (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem with points #2 and #3. I, however, echo Jytdog's and Bobrayner's concern about a zero revert rule. There are times when an edit is clearly not an improvement but not "vandalism", where a "compromise" is NOT ideal. I have also seen some significantly, let's say, "unique" interpretations of what a "revert" is, and am afraid someone could get caught in the wash in what others would consider normal editing. Yobol (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog is correct, toxic, and this imposition does not help. 0RR? What does that actually mean? This is unworkable. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 00:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with this proposal, as confirmed above. We have found a way to link the wikilinks and translated medical terms to History sections, it will work and put true edit dispute aside. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Roxy and Yobol, I just don't see how 0RR is workable. I have never, in my 8 years of editing wp, seen such a thing. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
It is because of the edit warring. Except Blades and Roxy, Yobol and little olive oil technically reverted each other 3 times, no discussion can be seen. VandVictory (talk) 11:33, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Please be careful when making accusations. (Littleolive oil (talk) 15:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC))
I think this is part of the problem, establishing a 0RR which is a blockable, where the definition of "revert" is going to be an issue. I personally feel that the exchange of edits between Littleolive oil and myself was non-contentious editing, and not reverting. I hope John takes the numerous experienced editors' concerns above into consideration, and perhaps establishes a less strict restriction such as 1RR (even contentious article areas which have revert restrictions such as Abortion or Men's Rights Movement have been 1RR, so I'm not sure why the need for 0RR here, nor any track record of 0RR being useful in contentious areas). Yobol (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Commented below. I like the 0RR in part because it prevents peremptory deletions or additions as well as editors adding or removing content while discussion on that very content is ongoing and underway which derails and overrides discussion, and can become or points to ownership issues. However, I do agree with Yobol that our back and forth was not contentious and rather than reverting content was adjusting it. I would give up that privilege if it meant contentious articles/discussions became pleasant with less ownership issues.(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC))
  • If followed, John's rules mean that people will be blocked for making edits like this or this or this or this or this or this or this or this, because the rules have been designed without any exemption for reverting the addition of copyvio, or promotional links, or factual errors, or WP:MEDRS failures, or NPOV failures, and so on - and there's plenty of folk out there who are trying to add such things. There's also the content-blanking problem - always the blanking of words critical of Ayurveda but leaving the positive - that's permitted under John's rules but returning to the status quo is a blockable offence.
  • Consequently, these rules make it much harder to maintain or improve article quality; it's a one-way mechanism, a ratchet, which ensures that the article will gradually fill up with that crap. Like Jytdog, I'm walking away from this article until John's rules are either fixed or removed. I already have one stain on my record, for loudly calling out sockpuppetry and canvassing (on wholly unrelated articles); I don't want a second block for trying to fix other policy violations. bobrayner (talk) 17:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Pinging @John:, to see if he will amend his proposal, given the feedback of multiple experienced editors. Yobol (talk) 19:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Discussion on sentence in lead Recognized as traditional form of medicine by WHO and NIH .

Pinging @John: again, to see if he will amend his proposal, given the feedback of multiple experienced editors, and their notification that they will no longer participate in this article due to unreasonable imposition of rather sledgehammer 0RR restrictions. A SPA editor has made an entry to the lead today which would under normal circumstances be justifiably removed straight away. I feel like adding ""This pseudoscientific claptrap..." somewhere in the lead, as nobody could remove it. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
But everyone is allowed to remove vandalism, so it will be reverted as vandalism. నిజానికి (talk) 12:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
When did stating the mainstrean scientific pov become vandalism? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 15:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Obvious vandalism because it is not complying with any scientific source itself. I failed finding one, don't know if you are dreaming of any. నిజానికి (talk) 15:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the new material should be deleted. I've moved it for the moment. Anyone want to argue for its inclusion? --Ronz (talk) 18:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=hc2ckCmodvsC - page =232 , http://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/explore-healing-practices/ayurvedic-medicine/-ayurvedic-medicine-safe-0, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255448/ , Just look up '1978 WHO recognizes Ayurveda'. It should be kept on lead or added to Ayurveda outside Indian subcontinent, not in India because these are based outside India. నిజానికి (talk) 10:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
The final link you provided there is almost unreadable due to its incredibly poor writing. (Perhaps it is a machine translation) so I cannot comment on it. The second link looks like a blog post. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I had many edu websites opened on my browser. You can open it again. నిజానికి (talk) 14:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
The "recognition" is just a definition, and redundant. It should be removed. --Ronz (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz can you write "Recognized as traditional form of medicine by WHO and NIH." It is notable because they don't recognise most of the popular traditional medicine. నిజానికి (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Agree with నిజానికి on the inclusion requested with the changes mentioned Prodigyhk (talk) 05:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
"It is notable because they don't recognise most of the popular traditional medicine." Says who? --Ronz (talk) 16:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz, The sentence "Recognized as traditional form of medicine by WHO and NIH." suggested by నిజానికి is acceptable, since WHO & NIH are reliable source Prodigyhk (talk) 05:24, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes they are important to add. నిజానికి (talk) 12:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
As has been pointed out by నిజానికి, "everyone is allowed to remove vandalism, so it will be reverted as vandalism" if it is added. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 15:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Roxy: Rules for this page is zero revert. Ronz broke the rule by removing the edit by నిజానికి the edit without any discussion. Yet, నిజానికి has been discussing on this talk to get consensus. So, stop accusing that నిజానికి is a vandal. Just state agree/disagree to the new modified sentence he has proposed. Prodigyhk (talk) 15:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
It's no revert, and there is discussion. Please WP:FOC. --Ronz (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Roxy the dog don't even know what is vandalism, someone should teach him English before he get into any of these subjects. నిజానికి (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Its not vandalism. If added it should be discussed before.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:20, 26 October 2014 (UTC))

I don't see how it is vandalism if it is discussed and reached to an agreement. Of course we know that Roxy has severe competence issues, he would like to make lackluster discussion about everything but the actual subject. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"It is notable because they don't recognise most of the popular traditional medicine." So no source? It appears to be personal opinion and intentional misrepresentation then driving the inclusion of the material. If so, then it most definitely doesn't belong. --Ronz (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Look below. నిజానికి (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
What am I looking for? We're not going to include misleading information in the article. --Ronz (talk) 15:56, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Discuss it ... and it can be discussed with out personal remarks, and assumptions right, no matter how frustrated everyone gets?(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC))

Partial protection as well?

Given the problem editing coming from SPA ip's, any attempt at imposing 0/1RR restrictions should include partial page protection as well. --Ronz (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes it should be semi-protected. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Partial page restriction wont protect against SPAs or regular fringe editors. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Integration into Indian health system to lede

Ronz This has been part of the lead for a long time now. If you want remove existing agreed text, discuss it first here. Get consensus.

  • Ayurveda is well integrated into the Indian National health care system, with state hospitals for Ayurveda established across the country.ref name="who01">"Legal Status of Traditional Medicine and Complementary/Alternative Medicine: A Worldwide Review". World Health Organization (WHO) Source: (accessed: Tuesday June 24, 2014), c.8.5</ref

Prodigyhk (talk) 05:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Please WP:FOC.
It had been part of the lede for a long time? If so (please provide diffs as to when it was added, removed, etc), then had it been discussed? --Ronz (talk) 16:07, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz removed it without discussion. It is your responsibility to discuss here before removing. Please put it back. Then start discussion about change of this sentence or removal. Prodigyhk (talk) 05:18, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz: Note details you have requested. Talk:Ayurveda/Archive_5#Lead_-_Indian_state_position_towards_Ayurveda from 24Jun2014. Sentence included in article ] on 29Jun2014 Prodigyhk (talk) 06:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out when it was added. There was no discussion at the time nor since then? How about now? Anyone object to moving it back to the lede? --Ronz (talk) 15:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz, I have no particular objection with its removal from the lede, but it is always good if you can add something as descriptive. If there was no discussion when it was added or it may have remained for ages. What would you suggest? Bladesmulti (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
It should be removed altogether as WP:UNDUE. recognised by WHO has no real meaning, and doesn't add to our article. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 15:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz added Ayurveda is recognized as a traditional form of medicine, maybe he can transfer it somewhere else, because this based on the usual recognition which is made by WHO, NIH. నిజానికి (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
This sentence is about the legal status of Ayurveda in India as documented by WHO. It is important to include in lead. Prodigyhk (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Discussion could have been made before it was removed. నిజానికి should have discussed before he added, but he was notified by John after he made his edit. Ronz what you have to say about re-including the pre-నిజానికి lead material? Bladesmulti (talk) 16:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
This could be resolved by finding one or more sources dealing with the place of Ayurveda in health care in India. "Well integrated" doesn't sound very neutral. There must be a plethora of academic texts on health care in India, and I suggest that we should look for one aimed at postgraduate students. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Modern and Global Ayurveda may be useful for discussing the current practice of Ayurveda in India and elsewhere. User:Wujastyk, who wrote the chapter on the Government of India's regulation of Ayurveda in that book, may be able to provide pointers to even more resources. Abecedare (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Repaired above link. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:30, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
to achieve consensus, we can remove "well", although the source uses this. Please advice accept / reject / modify with your reasons. New suggested sentence for lead: Ayurveda is well integrated into the Indian National health care system, with state hospitals for Ayurveda established across the country.ref name="who01">"Legal Status of Traditional Medicine and Complementary/Alternative Medicine: A Worldwide Review". World Health Organization (WHO) Source: (accessed: Tuesday June 24, 2014), c.8.5</refProdigyhk (talk) 03:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Proposal 2: We could go with something like, "Ayurveda is incorporated in the Indian national health system including a number of state hospitals for Ayurveda." I don't know if it belongs in lead. Just a suggestion. As a note the source seems to support some content. - - MrBill3 (talk) 06:11, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
If there are no other suggestions/opinions, will proceed to include proposal 2. Prodigyhk (talk) 10:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Proposal 2 would work. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:36, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm still reluctant to see the above suggestion in the body text, and it is certainly unacceptable in the lead, but I've realised that the proposed text as it stands implies that AV has a benificial role to play in modern medicine in India, which we should not imply. So, how about -"Ayurveda is incorporated in the Indian national health system, including a number of state hospitals, despite the lack of evidence of any benefit to patients." I'd support that in the body. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:24, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Are you aware of OR and synthesis? Don't include anything that is not cited in the citation. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:36, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Are you aware of the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience? I'll place the warning on your talk page as soon as I figure out how. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:13, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes I am aware of it, and probably since I started to edit astrological articles. Bladesmulti (talk) 11:28, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Recognition is nothing more than a definition and is unrelated to integration in health system

They are two, unrelated topics. The recognition is simply a definition. Integration into the health system is something else entirely. Please don't conflate the two.

Some editors feel that "It is notable because they don't recognise most of the popular traditional medicine." This is complete nonsense. It does appear to be the WP:FRINGE-violating point of view that editors want included in the article though. --Ronz (talk) 16:09, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Concur with Ronz. Does a reliable secondary source discuss this? Is there anything other than OR that finds this to have any meaning? What is the source for "integration"? - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Same here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:38, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
There are many citations including this one, pages from 283- 286 includes every notable organizations that have supported Ayurveda. A good paragraph can be made of it, as we happen to find additional citations. I cannot say that well integrated is accurate, but information can be confirmed from by the WHO source. May be rewritten. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Ronz: have created separate sub-section for "recognition" discussion. So, as not to conflate with the "integration" discussion.Prodigyhk (talk) 03:54, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Close to source

Yobol. I think this is one of those times where its hard to not be too close to the source given since we're dealing with only a few words. However, I'd agree the wording was close. I'm not sure the wording in place now is quite accurate to the source but its fine with me, at least, since the meaning is close to accurate. And thanks for a painless back and forth as we searched for the right words.:O)(Littleolive oil (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC))

Agreed. :) Yobol (talk) 19:41, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

FTN notice

As the original poster failed to notify, I am informing that the subject is being discussed on Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Ayurveda, have your comment. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I am surprised that your encyclopedic knowledge of WP Policy and guideline doesn't include anything much about the use of FTN. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 21:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Have I confused pre-science with pseudoscience? Like you do. You could have made a discussion here first. But I know what you are pointing to, I am not sure why it would hurt any, but suggesting about general sanctions(e.g. topic ban) is just an idea. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Natural medical substances used- further additions

Have made further additions in Opium and Alchol with new sources included. Request editors to review and advice if any concerns. Prodigyhk (talk) 10:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

cannabis now included. Prodigyhk (talk) 11:35, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Paper from UT-Anderson Cancer Center

Request editors opinions and comments on using this this peer reviewed paper for developing the article.

  • Paper title: Identification of Novel Anti-inflammatory Agents from Ayurvedic Medicine for Prevention of Chronic Diseases: “Reverse Pharmacology” and “Bedside to Bench” Approach
  • Journal Published in: Current Drug Targets VOL 12 ISS 11 http://www.eurekaselect.com/75069/article | Publisher: Bentham Science Publishers
  • Authors: Bharat B. Aggarwal,* Sahdeo Prasad, Simone Reuter, Ramaswamy Kannappan, Vivek R. Yadev, Byoungduck Park, Ji Hye Kim, Subash C. Gupta, Kanokkarn Phromnoi, Chitra Sundaram, Seema Prasad, Madan M. Chaturvedi, and Bokyung Sung | Cytokine Research Laboratory, Department of Experimental Therapeutics, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, 1515 Holcombe Boulevard, Houston, TX 77030
  • Author Manuscript available on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170500/

Prodigyhk (talk) 12:42, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

It would depend on the specific content. I think it would, for example, be acceptable as a source to list examples of plants used in Ayurvedic practice. Yobol (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Description of use of Madya

I removed the following as a FRINGE and MEDRS violation. I tried to rewrite it, but the source is so poorly written that I couldn't find a solution that would meed FRINGE and MEDRS while not being considered a partial revert in some manner. A better source would greatly help, but maybe someone else can figure out a better solution. Remember, we shouldn't be describing any medical effects or properties. Instead we should just describe their use.

"Used judiciously as a medicine, the various alcholic beverages, causes purgation, improve digestion and taste, creates dryness, non-viscid, quick in action, enters into minute pores of the body and cleaning them, spreads quickly and produces looseness of joints."

The source says:

Madya are of various kinds like sura, sukta, sidhu, etc. Ira, madira, hala and balavallabha are synonyms of Madya. All kinds of Madya are hot in potency, slightly sweet, bitter and pungent in taste, slightly astringent, sour at the end of digestion. It aggravates pitta, mitigates vata and kapha, causes purgation, digests quickly, creates dryness, non-viscid, kindles digestive fire, helps taste, quick in action, enters into minute pores of the body and cleaning them, spreads quickly and produces looseness of joints5. They are beneficial to those having loss of sleep or excess sleep of both lean and stout persons. All of these properties are conferred, if they are used judiciously considering them as medicines. They cause intoxication and act like poisons if they are used otherwise6.

Thoughts? --Ronz (talk) 18:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Note that there is older sentence with no citations, which states alcohol is used as a narcotic, for which I could not find any source. This is the reason I had included this to to indicate use of alcohol in Ayurveda. Will now remove the word "medicine", rewrite and post. Please check after posting Prodigyhk (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
The English is poor in the source, and in the article. I don't think we made any progress at all, so I've tagged it as violating MEDRS.
We need a better source, or maybe just remove any attempt to try to describe the uses for madya as a whole given how diverse they are. --Ronz (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
It just present what purpose madya is used for in Ayurveda. The source is sufficient for this purpose. Do understand NO claims are being made that is accepted as medical science. Prodigyhk (talk) 10:04, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Violation of ASSERT

This is a problematic edit because it violated WP:ASSERT. There is no serious dispute presented. Now the text was deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 03:34, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the recently added claims sourced to a self-published work (see lulu.com, which is on wikipedia blacklist for obvious reasons) by an author with no known expertise in the area.
More broadly: The article should definitely discuss how ayurveda has been variously classification as traditional-/proto-/pseudo- science based on the authoritative sources on philosophy and history of science. Doing a google book search for "pseudoscience ayurveda" and picking up sources at random is not the way to go about this. Find good sources on the topic, discuss and formulate the content here on the talk page, and then add it to the article, instead of adding a broad claim based on a fringe-y source. Abecedare (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Other than Misplaced Pages:SPS, Misplaced Pages:FRINGE, it also falls under Misplaced Pages:RGW. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:01, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree that this is a very poor source. I don't want to start an edit war on this content so left it in with attribution. I'd add that Ayurveda is not a science or pseudoscience either; its is syetem of health care which has elements which may be described as science or pseudoscience or fringe, for example its research. I agree also that classification should be discussed in the article in a section of its own with high quaiity sources that discuss Ayurveda in a substantial and specific way.(Littleolive oil (talk) 04:06, 1 November 2014 (UTC))
It has been mentioned on Pseudoscience which is enough. Unless it is generally considered as pseudoscience, then only it could be mentioned here. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
There is consensus the source used a pseudoscience is reliable for the claim. QuackGuru (talk) 04:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
That consensus was only for this edit. No one said that it can be generalized as pseudoscience. But if it has to fall under the pseudoscience sanctions, atleast a few sources had to be required, and they were presented on FTN. But that was the end. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I thought I was helping to answer your question. There are all pseudoscience or related to pseudoscience and fall under the sanctions. In a way you invited me here. QuackGuru (talk) 04:34, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
My question was about TCM, not AV. Hopefully if you look into archives you would better know why we haven't classified it as pseudoscience. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Your question was about TCM, which was referring to AV. I am here to help. QuackGuru (talk) 04:53, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean Bladesmulti. We need good sources. Our own articles are not reliable sources for our article content. I may be misunderstanding you. (Littleolive oil (talk) 04:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC))

I know recognition is the case, AV has been added to for a while on Pseudoscience#Pseudoscientific_concepts and List of topics characterized as pseudoscience. Because it has been recognized as one by numerous sources, but it couldn't be established as the main or common definition, that's why it was barred from here. See the archives, consensus was to only add on pseudoscience-related pages. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:42, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Where does the archives support deleting this text? QuackGuru (talk) 04:53, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Here's one Bladesmulti (talk) 05:02, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
That archived discussion does not explain this revert. QuackGuru (talk) 05:05, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Discussion was not about the revert, but the content you were adding. Remember that this page is under 0 revert restriction. Only those changes can be added, where you have achieved consensus. See Talk:Ayurveda#Going_forward. There was consensus to put under restriction, which has been accomplished. Now as for categorization, there is none. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:09, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
The archived discussion was not about the content that was deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

There was not consensus for 0RR there were multiple objections. There is substantial evidence to indicate ayurveda is pseudoscience and there not an indication of serious academic dispute of that. Ayurveda is generally considered pseudoscience, this is supported with both direct sources and a preponderance of sources. Per pseudoscience sanctions it may be characterized that way. Objection should be based on policy and sources provided. Semple, David; Smyth, Roger, eds. (2013). Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry. Oxford University Press. p. 20. ISBN 9780191015908. cites ayurveda literally as a textbook example of pseudoscience which "confuse the metaphysical with empirical claims". Notable science journalist David Bradley wrote, "One area of non-western science that many western medics and scientists say is nothing more than pseudoscientific claptrap is Ayurvedic medicine." These are two sources that clearly support that ayurveda is generally considered pseudoscience, thus it should be characterized that way per the sanctions. - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

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