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Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

There is a full-scale edit warring in the article involving multiple users. I am not suggesting (yet) that the users be sanctioned, but I would appreciate if someone takes a look and takes some action like e.g. page protection or discretionary sanctions. I did edit the article long time ago, so that I am involved.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

• 6 edits yesterday, 1 today, 1 the day before. Looks like they are sticking to 1RR. I don't see the need for any drastic action yet. Dennis - 2¢ 14:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I see a lot of content that had references being repeatedly removed for what appears to be WP:I just don't like it reasons. 20 pages of talk archive! And really, how many times does Volunteer Marek have to repeat the link WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT before someone starts to scream? He's done it 14 times so far in the active talk page and it is no substitute for actual discussion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, indeed I guess they self-oganized to stick to 1RR. There was some attempt on the action a week ago, but it was suddenly stopped by TParis (who was afraid that an intervention of an American admin could be unwanted).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

There may be some tag teaming, hard to prove, I'm just saying the article edit volume is manageable and I can't see any action to take there. As for the talk page, that is a mess, but better the talk page than the article. Being an American (and ex-military to boot), I'm not sure my input is any more welcome. Dennis - 2¢ 14:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Precisely my point, Dennis. I know we have an admin teaching English in China right now. Perhaps they'd be the least biased here. Or an Australian admin? Do we have any sysops from South America maybe?--v/r - TP 15:56, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Australia lost a lot of people in the incident and imposed sanctions on Russia. China, Latin America, India, Pakistan, or South Africa would be the best locations for an admin willing to do anything there.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I am South American. I think I could help then? → Call me Hahc21 16:11, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Your intervention will be certainly welcome in any case, but what I mean is that a South American users run considerably lower chances to be accused in affiliation with one side of the conflict than Americans, Australians, Europeans, or Russians.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

• Apparently a user wanted to report this matter to WP:AE (where it belongs), but changed his mind . Given that, I think reporting this here (or anywhere) was not such a good idea. And yes, I agree with Dennis. My very best wishes (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for this discussion. I personally have no problem with an American admin. I would have a serious problem with someone who claims that tag teaming is "hard to prove" when there is very obvious and very serious OWNership by editors who insist they know "the truth" even though there's an ongoing investigation. Do they know something the investigators don't know? USchick (talk) 18:45, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

If so, how many "tag teams" do you think operate here, who exactly are members of each "team", and what exactly proofs of "tag-teaming" (as opposed to collaborative editing in good faith) do you have? My very best wishes (talk) 19:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking of starting a new sanctions request about this. Do you think now is a good time? USchick (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

No. I think that casting aspersions is a very bad idea, unless you have evidence to support your claims. I do not really see anything except a few people acting in a good faith. I think you should either remove your comment above (this is my suggestion) or provide your evidence at WP:AE, which would be a proper noticeboard for such case. My very best wishes (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. I will think about it. USchick (talk) 19:40, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know the process. To ask for Sanctions to be enforced, can I ask on the talk page or somewhere else? USchick (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Ask an advice from any administrator who you think would be knowledgeable and uninvolved in editing pages on Eastern Europe. My very best wishes (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

The admins here have acknowledged that there's a problem on the talk page. Can you please provide some guidance on how to proceed? Thank you. USchick (talk) 20:54, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

So let me see if I understand this correctly. When it's time to block people, admins have a lot to say, but when it's time to offer constructive advice, there's no one to be found? I bet admins would get a lot more respect if they were wiling to take on a leadership role instead of acting like jailers. Just saying. USchick (talk) 11:04, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

There are three avenues you may want to take. First, if one of the editors behaves disruptively, he or she can be reported here or at 3RR Noticeboard, depending on the situation, or eventually even at arbitration enforcement. I would say there is very little chance for smth to happen - for example, once I was trying to deal with the editor who was adding {{fact}} templates to figure captions, and wanted to get references for the Constitution of Russia (you know, with ISBN etc), and I could only get him blocked from the fourth attempt, and my first attempt resulted in someone lecturing me that this is a proper behavior, and I am attacking a good-faith user. Furthermore, if this is a purely content dispute (and if you ask me, I would say it currently is), WP:DRN is at your service, and then mediation. I am not really looking forward, since you are in minority, and the majority can simply ignore the dispute resolution attempts, but you can try nevertheless. Finally, the most difficult route, which so far nobody tries to take, is to take every single source and get consensus elsewhere on whether the source is reliable in this situation. For example, if you think RT is a reliable source - take it to the corresponding noticeboard, insist that it gets evaluated, and if it is concluded to be a reliable source as far as Ukraine is concerned, info from RT can be added to the article.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, that's not a bad idea about the RS noticeboard. Thanks!!! USchick (talk) 21:15, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

But always do the search. This particular source was discussed numerous times, most recently here and becomes less and less reliable every day. Disputing questionable sources on the RS noticeboard is enormous waste of time. My very best wishes (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

My opinion is that RT is generally fairly trustworthy, and is most trustworthy where it reports on things that are not directly connected to Russia, and most useful when those trustworthy reports concern news stories that are deliberately under reported (or not reported at all) by media sources in the US (or, in Britain, by the BBC). It quite clearly delights in pointing out the biases and untrustworthy nature of some US and European reporting on some issues, which sometimes means it misses the point in its reporting, emphasizes the wrong things, and gives that reporting an unprofessional and rather amateurish tone. I think the idea that a blanket "trustworthy" or "untrustworthy" label can be given to a major media source that reports on many different subject areas in many different countries is always going to be unsustainable, which is why that particular discussion was called "a giant waste of time". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

People are arguing about what information they want to include, so the argument is not about the source itself. Time magazine is reliable, but there's an entire argument about what the article actually says. Any advice about what to do when editors cherry pick information to support one side of the story and ignore the other side? USchick (talk) 07:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Here is the official advice. You are obviously uncomfortable with editing these subjects. Edit something else ("may wish to restrict their editing to other topics"). My very best wishes (talk) 14:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Denial of an RfC on proposed General Sanctions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• (diff) 10:13, 29 October 2014‎ PBS (→‎Moving forward: Turn the debate it into an RfC so that a broader consensus can be sought)
• (diff) 12:27, 29 October 2014‎ RGloucester (→‎Moving forward: I never put forth an RfC. Don't use my wording with an RfC.)
• (diff) PBS (→‎Moving forward: Second Try for an RfC)
• (diff) 13:40, 29 October 2014‎ RGloucester (Make your own section if you want an RfC. I don't.)

From the section Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#General sanctions for matters pertaining to units of measurement in Britain

From the history of the page:

• 13:31, 29 October 2014‎ PBS (→‎Moving forward: Second Try for an RfC)
• 13:40, 29 October 2014‎ RGloucester (Make your own section if you want an RfC. I don't.)

I don't believer that this section belongs to you! So under what right are you reverting edits made by me? If I create another section for an RfC, opinions will be split over two different sections. This is not fair on people who have already made their opinions clear, and needlessly complicates the RfC, but if you insist I will create a section below this one. -- PBS (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

You are adding an RfC template in conjunction with my words, in a way that would be misleading. It implies that I support this so-called "RfC". I have repeatedly said I do not. In fact, I believe that any opening of an RfC at this stage would be disruptive. No RfC is necessary. The only one that seems to think so is you, and furthermore, no other general sanctions ever were established by RfC. If you want to start an RfC, you should draft a proposal. Do not use my proposal for your RfC. RGloucester — ☎ 15:35, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester For someone who is seeking the consensus of the community to bring in some general sanctions, I find it extraordinary that you would not want to include as many people as possible in building that consensus and are trying to block an RfC on the issue!

The RfC does not in any way alter what you have said. It does not imply that you support the RfC, and that is not the issue. Your have twice removed an RfC what the RfC process says is "If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. An RfC tag generally remains on the page until removed by the RfC bot or the originator." My emphasis. You are free to state under the RfC that you do not support the RfC if you so wish but you are not free to removed it for that reason.

If you will not let me place the RfC banner at the top of this section then I will create a new one at the bottom and I will use you proposed wording because that is for which you are seeking to gain consensus. As I have said it will be inconvenient for those who have already expressed an opinion in this straw poll and could easily lead to confusion, hence the reason I think it better to convert this section into a RfC. -- PBS (talk) 18:29, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

In fact, it shows bad faith on your part. It singles my proposal out amongst all other general sanctions proposals, and puts a bureaucratic block in front of it. Not because of any particular policy or guideline, but because of one editor's opposition. You do not have a right to filibuster this proposal, nor do you have a right to unilaterally force bureaucratic measures on it. I will not allow you to use my wording for any RfC of yours. If you'd like to make a proposal, write one up and then start an RfC. My wording is not going to be used in any RfCs requested unilaterally by you. I will follow the established procedure for general sanctions proposals. I will not be made to jump through hoops at your behest. If you continue to disrupt this proposal, I will be forced to open a thread at WP:AN/I. RGloucester — ☎ 18:35, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I have never been put in a situation before where an editor claims copyright on wording such the proposals for general sanctions to prevent an RfC being held on whether those general sanctions are acceptable to the wider Misplaced Pages community. But how else is one meant to understand I will not allow you to use my wording for any RfC of yours. If you'd like to make a proposal, write one up and then start an RfC. My wording is not going to be used in any RfCs requested unilaterally by you.

I think that the proposed general sanctions are badly drafted because the UK is not defined and potentially covers hundreds of thousands of articles. If one looks at list of general sanctions they are tightly focused on an issue or on a specific area, this proposal is neither. Therefore I think that a decision on whether to impose the sanctions should not be restricted to the dozen or so editors who have expressed an opinion so far.

Now that there is a definite draft I think it should be put to the community via a widely adversed RfC. User:RGloucester had twice reverted my attempts to start an RfC and seems to be determined to continue to do so. I think that this is unreasonable and I would like to see what the consensus is here at ANI is:

1. On whether the language highlighted in Green is reasonable
2. Whether it is desirable to hold an RfC on such a wide ranging (and I think badly drafted General Sanction)

-- PBS (talk) 17:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

RfCs are an informal process, as it says at the RfC page. Such a process cannot be forced upon a proposal by one heavily-involved editor. You've expressed your objection to the proposal, as is your right. However, that does not overwrite the views of other editors who do support the proposal, and do think that the UK is adequately defined. Your one objection does not trigger an RfC, nor does it overwrite the standard procedure for establishing general sanctions, which is to start a discussion at WP:AN. There is no reason why this proposal is any different from any other general sanctions proposal. I will not take part in any farcical RfC requested at your behest. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. I will not accept one editor's insertion of an RfC template before my words, without my consent. RGloucester — ☎ 17:17, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

PBS, I can't see any evidence of anyone 'claiming copyright' on anything. What I can however see is an out-of-sequence construction of a RfC around a comment made in another context. I'm not surprised that RGloucester objects to you misrepresenting his posting in this way. If you think an RfC is merited, start one in the appropriate manner, in your own words. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:22, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of the general sanctions proposal is to stop the bizarre disruption of UK related pages by advocates and opponents of the metric system of measurement in the UK. Both sides have often paralysed a series of articles, whilst converting backward and forward to / from their favoured measurement system. A clear consensus had formed at WT:MOSNUM there was a need for this, there was a clear consensus at WP:AN to enact it and now progress is being prevented by PBS in what I can only describe as filibustering. This wasn't an RFC, it was refactioring another editors comments - something that in normal circumstances could well lead to a block. It is a bizarre demand by any standards that you be allowed to refactor another editors post to become an RFC; so much so that I question whether PBS still has the WP:COMPETENCE to be an administrator.

1. Yes the proposal is reasonable and there was no need to forum shop it elsewhere.
2. No, I don't see a need for an RFC on the proposal. WCM_email 17:47, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump If the statement "I will not allow you to use my wording for any RfC of yours." is claim of copyright, then what it it?

@Wee Curry Monsternon one is proposing to "forum shop it elsewhere". I did not redactor anyone's comments indeed if anyone refactored anyone's comments it is User:RGloucester for removing text -- but given the circumstances that is not a question that needs addressing. The question that needs addressing is does one editor have the right under the relevant policies and guidelines to prevent another editor starting an RfC with claims of ownership over both a process and text that that editor states they own? -- PBS (talk) 12:39, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

You're not going to get anywhere with this "line of questioning", I can assure you that. This is starting to look like pure badgering. RGloucester — ☎ 12:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

I've been trying to push this forward to some sort of conclusion, and again we're going down a side issue Doesn't "Work submitted to Misplaced Pages can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone—subject to certain terms and conditions." that appears under every edit window have relevance here?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Havin been party to the GS discussion, I found it decidedly odd that PBS would unilaterally try to wrap an existing discussion into an RFC. As Andy says, PBS, just start a new RFC. RGloucester has stated their objection to your use of their words in the way you wish. You may have the legal right to edit any text on wiki but wrapping RG's words into your RFC when he's indicated his opposition would be ethically wrong.Blackmane (talk) 13:35, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

In the meantime, I think someone uninvolved might consider closing this and the AN discussion possibly as well, if he finds consensus has been reached.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:06, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

@PBS: If you think you can add the RfC tag to his proposal and then have it take at least a week (and default of a month) before closing, you are wrong. If you just added the RfC to try to get more interest from other editors, I can understand that, but if he doesn't want it to be an RfC, the RfC tag should be removed from his request and start your own. He cant stop you from creating your own RfC thread using whatever words you wish. But don't expect him to stop the building of consensus for his proposal and wait for your RfC to finish (by the time the RfC finishes it is unlikely to matter anymore). --Obsidi (talk) 06:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm starting to get quite fed-up, here. PBS has now started a new "RfC" at WP:AN#RfC: General actions over systematic changes of values from one system of measurement to another. Instead of making his own proposal, he copied mine as I told him not to do, clearly in bad faith. This is absolutely absurd, and I don't know why it should be tolerated. There is no reason why I should be badgered like this. I followed the standard procedure for general sanctions, I worked hard with many editors to ensure that their concerns are dealt with. That's why I have consensus in that AN thread to establish this proposal. It doesn't matter, what I've done, however, because some lone-wolf guy called PBS can come in here, assault me for trying to resolve a serious and long-term problem, and destroy my proposal. Now we have a duplicate joke RfC, and there is nothing I can do about it. I'd like to seek sanctions against PBS. Perhaps he should be blocked, perhaps admonished. I don't know. But this is clearly unacceptable behaviour, and behaviour unbecoming of an administrator. It is childish, and stupid. Please close this farcical RfC, and do something about PBS's behaviour. RGloucester — ☎ 13:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

@RGloucester: What is your problem with him starting his own RfC? It doesn't stop you from continuing to do what you were doing before. --Obsidi (talk) 20:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

His own "RfC" on the wording proposed by me, disregarding the ongoing discussion that we've been having above, all the input people have put in there? His own "RfC", requested unilaterally by himself as a bureaucratic block on my proposal? His own "RfC", in defiance of the standard process for general sanctions, which is to have a discussion at WP:AN? His own "RfC", an attempt to force his opinion on everyone else because he just doesn't like the proposal? His own "RfC", despite my telling him explicitly that I don't support such an RfC, and that I didn't want him to use my proposal for his own purposes? It is not a legal question of copyright, but one of ethics. This is pure bad faith behaviour, essentially badgering. There is absolutely no justification for this behaviour at all, especially coming from an administrator. It is pure disruption. If he wasn't an administrator, he'd likely be blocked for such behaviour. He's likewise topic-banned editors for doing similar things in articles under the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL sanctions. The fact that this nonsense is being tolerated by the community is absurd. RGloucester — ☎ 20:16, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think it is "bureaucratic block on my proposal"? They operate independently. If your proposal gets consensus, it gets closed and enacted. At that point in time the RfC becomes moot (as already enacted), and gets closed for that reason. Doesn't stop or block you at all. --Obsidi (talk) 20:19, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense. There are now two discussions about the same proposal, one of which is illegitimate. Nothing can be done with the upper proposal until this "RfC" is closed. RGloucester — ☎ 20:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Why not? You proposed something using the normal process, and he proposed something using the RfC process. Same words/different words, doesn't matter, two different proposals. Normally fractured conversations like that are bad, and we like to merge into a single process, but if people cant agree, then there is no requirement of having only one. I don't see how the RfC prevents someone from closing your proposal (assuming it has a consensus to be enacted).--Obsidi (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It is called Misplaced Pages:Forumshopping. It is bad, pure and simple. People do agree: everyone except PBS. RGloucester — ☎ 20:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think its forum shopping, he isn't asking to override your consensus (at least from what I can tell), by going to another forum. He is trying to get input from other outside editors, using a process that probably in my opinion isn't going to work (because of the time an RfC takes), but that's all it is. He isn't asking that your consensus be overturned because he didn't get the answer he wants. When your discussion closes with a consensus (assuming you actually do get a consensus), then the RfC should be closed. --Obsidi (talk) 20:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, he is. He thinks that the comments made in the discussion I started were not "wide enough", even though plenty of other general sanctions have been established with less participation. As such, he is unilaterally opening an RfC so that he can do whatever he can to stop the proposal, even if only temporarily. He is saying, essentially, that the discussion I started isn't good enough, and that there is no possibility for consensus without an RfC. That's exactly what he said in the thread I started. RGloucester — ☎ 20:56, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

@PBS: He says that it is "not a well watched page" and that he would like to see a "well advertised RfC" and that he created the "RfC so that a wider community consensus can be sought". Maybe its ambiguous on exactly what he meant to do with the RfC (override whatever consensus developed without the RfC or just gain a wider audience viewing it). One is clear forum shopping, the other is just trying to get more eyeballs on the topic that might be interested in it. Best to ask PBS what he meant for the RfC, to clear things up. --Obsidi (talk) 21:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It doens't matter whether it is a "well-watched page" or not, because all other general sanctions have been drawn-up there, and that's the standard procedure. I followed that procedure, and I should not be punished for doing so. RGloucester — ☎ 21:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Jumping in a little late, but I must say I found that a quite extraordinary argument. According to the most recent database report, WP:AN is number 18 most watched page on Misplaced Pages. If that's "not a well watched page", what is a well-watched page? Kahastok talk 21:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that, you followed the procedure, and that is the procedure, and with consensus can be closed and add the general sanctions you proposed (with or without the RfC). I just disagree that makes the RfC improper as I don't think it stops or prevents or in anyway interferes with your proposal (if that is what is being proposed by PBS that would be forum shopping). If he wants more people to view the suggestion, that is fine, if he wants to override the consensus with the RfC that would be improper. --Obsidi (talk) 21:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

"I followed that procedure, and I should not be punished for doing so." Why you should think that an RfC is a punishment is beyond me. although I do see that your claim of ownership over the wording is an indication that you do not see this as a broadly inclusive process. There is no time limit on the process of deciding whether to introduce such sanction. It is better to have sanctions with wide support than narrow support. I do think that the proposed sanctions, which I think are badly drafted, could be interpreted to affect 100,000 of articles and therefore potentially thousands of editors, so I think that the proposed sanctions should not be embarked upon after a discussion between less than a score of editors, and the easiest way to make sure that does not happen is to hold an RfC and see if a broader consensus supports the narrower one. -- PBS (talk) 12:42, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What you think, PBS, doesn't matter. You do not have ultimate authority to decide whether an RfC is required or isn't, or whether some kind broad consenus is required or isn't. You have no authority, because you're involved, and you're pushing your own point of view as far as it can go. I am closing the RfC, now, because I'm tired of the inaction, and because I won't let this farce continue on my watch. If someone else wants to support me, fine. If not, fine. I will not tolerate this nonsense, nor will I allow you to think that you can get away with it. RGloucester — ☎ 14:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Got to say that is the first time I have seen an RfC closed as: "Closed as farce based on bunk PoV pushing" (especially for such a neutrally worded RfC). --Obsidi (talk) 20:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality isn't about wording, in this case, but about behaviour. PBS does not get to have outsize impact on the discussion because he feels like it. He doesn't get to repeat his position across multiple forums. He doesn't get to split the discussion. The only reason he opened an RfC is because, as he said, he "doesn't feel" like the extant discussion met his own personal standards, or supported his own viewpoint. I apologise to PBS if that is the case, but his feelings are not based in policy or guidelines, and have no relevance. No other editor would be allowed to filibuster a proposal based on his or her feelings, nor should PBS be allowed the prerogative. He expressed his opinion very well in the existing discussion, and for that I'm thankful. RGloucester — ☎ 21:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Premature close of the RfC

RGloucester has closed the RfC I initiated. As RGloucester is clearly an involved editor, this is a clear breach of Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Ending RfCs. Particularly as the wording in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment#Suggestions for responding states "If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. An RfC tag generally remains on the page until removed by the RfC bot or the originator. A discussion can be closed only when the criteria at Ending RfCs are met." I do not wish to edit-war over this issue so could an uninvolved administrator please revert RGloucester's premature close? -- PBS (talk) 21:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Instead of that, can we please have an uninvolved administrator sanction PBS for consistently disrupting this discussion on general sanctions for the sake of advancing his own point-of-view? RGloucester — ☎ 21:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree, PBS has been utterly disruptive in this matter. I'm tempted to suggest a topic ban is appropriate, he has bulldozed the discussion over the comments of others and totally dominated any attempt at consensus building. WCM_email 21:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm fairly involved so I would rather not do it myself. That said, the RfC was closed. There is a procedure to follow when reviewing the closure of an RfC . I would focus on "if the closing editor may have become inextricably involved through previous experience in the conflict area." --Obsidi (talk) 22:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The RfC was not legitimate to start with. The better way to put it would be "no RfC was ever opened". He placed the template, but it was not really any kind of RfC. Just a farce. RGloucester — ☎ 22:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you really want people edit warring in/out RfCs? With one side saying "there never was an RfC". That's not how things get handled. He created an RfC. You closed the RfC. He can ask for review of that closure. --Obsidi (talk) 22:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There was no RfC. It was farce. An exercise in absurdist theatre. The "RfC" was a figment of PBS's imagination, used to advance a point-of-view. RfCs are an informal process. They are not a bureaucratic block, nor are they required for anything. Nor is it acceptable to use an RfC for the purpose of forum-shopping, nor for the purpose of splitting a discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 22:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban for UrbanVillager

Based on this discussion, I'd like to propose a topic ban for User:UrbanVillager on all Boris Malagurski-related articles. The editor is largely a huge SPA who only promotes the filmmaker Malagurski. Beyond edit warring, there has been a recent rise in attacks via complaints to ANI (and now SPI complaints). See Talk:The_Weight_of_Chains#Pincrete_behaving_like_he.2Fshe_owns_this_page for further conduct since the last ANI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. After the earlier ANI report, I watchlisted a few Malagurski-related articles to keep up with what was going on and, hopefully, offer a neutral opinion on what I expected to be the occasional content dispute. I quickly removed them all, as I couldn't handle the endless drama and pointless edit wars. In the above-linked talk page discussion, UrbanVillager threatens to disrupt the article to make a point. I think it's time to say "enough is enough". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:47, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban; the ownership and promotional editing have continued despite all attempts by other editors to intervene. I have long since given up trying to improve those articles. bobrayner (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Sadly, I can simply copy&paste my previous response: I remain utterly unconvinced that the account UrbanVillager is anything other than an egregious WP:SOCK/WP:MEAT violation, per evidence collected in 2012, but discarded on a number of technicalities. Even if others aren't convinced about all that WP:DUCK material, it still doesn't take a lot of effort to conclude that this account by itself is a single-purpose account that is not here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to engage in a shameless promotion of Boris Malagurski, which in turn is a slippery slope into advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle. The entire thing has been a humongous waste of time, and this iteration is no different. --Joy (talk) 19:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Clearly a tendentious and promotional single-purpose account with a massive conflict of interest. We don't need to tolerate such editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have not decided on this issue yet but an editor from 2010 who had contributed to a variety of topics does not seem to indicate a SPA to me. Chillum 00:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The topics edited on all relate either to the filmmaker, to the documentaries themselves or to the people interviewed in the documentaries. I'm not seeing a large variety unless you're including some edits years ago related to Serbia generally. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:45, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE 5th November, UrbanVillager, today made 5 edits on subjects not related to Malagurski, these are almost the only non-Malagurski edits in the last 3 years, even edits on subjects such as Serbian-Canadians, or on talk-pages are almost ALWAYS directly connected to Malagurski (see also additional info below). Pincrete (talk) 23:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose A few very close calls. Most recent edits are mostly in the topic area of Boris Malagurski, however there are enough old edits in other areas that I am not willing to push too hard on the SPA side of things to a topic ban (I would need more evidence of actual promotion/advocacy that I haven't seen yet). gets very, close to Misplaced Pages:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point, HOWEVER he doesn't ACTUALLY disrupt Misplaced Pages as he suggests, and as the WP:NOTPOINTy says "just because someone is making a point does not mean that they are disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate that point." Which I think applies in this case. --Obsidi (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment User:Ankit Maity made a relevant comment in the discussion further down this page, which I'm going to go ahead and quote:

I don't get this All SPAs are bad concept. Come on, this is not some satanic cult promoting their ancient religion of Sabbatic craft. It's simply a user who is interested in editing a specific topic. Unless the user displays really poor knowledge of policies, has COI or fails to maintain NPOV, he shouldn't be classified as a bad SPA. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

--Richard Yin (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that, it needs a showing of "has COI or fails to maintain NPOV", although if it is a SPA that suggests that such a NPOV/COI argument is going to be stronger, but it needs to actually be made. --Obsidi (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional information

As a party to both recent ANI's brought by UrbanVillager against other editors (referred to in Ricky81682's opening para), it would not be right for me to offer an opinion, however I offer the following additional information. These diffs show the edit history of UrbanVillager: … … Global … … Commons … … German nb Das Gewicht der Ketten = The Weight of Chains … … Greek nb Το Βάρος των Αλυσίδων = The Weight of Chains ‎ … … Spanish … … Italian nb Il peso delle catene = The Weight of Chains … … Meta nb complaints about block and about removal of Malagurski page on Croatian WP … … Romanian nb Тяжесть цепей ‎= The Weight of Chains … … Russian nb Тяжесть цепей = The Weight of Chains ‎… … Sh (Serbo-Croatian?) … … Serbian nb Борис Малагурски = Boris Malagurski Косово: Можете ли замислити? = Kosovo Can You Imagine ‎ Тежина ланаца = The Weight of Chains … … nb additionally, Hr(Croatian) 17 edits Don't show … 4 French edits which don't show … Bs (Bosnian) 1 doesn't show … Arabic there are 2 which I don't understand.

In every instance, the Weight of Chains article differs little from the 'about' page of the Malagurski website or press pack, as was the case with the English WofC page until very recently (which caused it to be in breach of copyvio, nearly 4 years after its first warning). Approx. 99% of UrbanVillager's edits on English Misplaced Pages relate directly to Malagurski, English 500 . WP is being used internationally as little more than a shop window for an otherwise obscure and highly politically contentious film maker. Pincrete (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Reponse

So, a ban on a topic because I'm interested in it? Well, alright, makes sense. However, Pincrete and some other editors have openly said that they despise Malagurski and his work, openly allowing their POV to affect their editing on Misplaced Pages, but nobody cares about that because they edit other articles as well, while it's apparently punishable to edit only one topic area on Misplaced Pages. So far, I've been accused of being Boris Malagurski, twice, of being paid by him, being his friend or whatever, when in essence, all I'd really like is to contribute to the area of interest, presenting well-sourced material, regardless of whether it's positive or negative towards Malagurski and his films (for those who have the time or interest to look into it, they'll notice I myself put forward sources that were critical towards Malagurski, so this notion that I "promote the filmmaker Malagurski" is pure nonsense.

Basically, a couple of editors who despise Malagurski and his work (and have openly said that) flared up the topic area by manipulating editors who don't have the time to look into the issue deeper and presenting me as Malagurski, on his payroll or whatever, saying that I must be removed so that they can continue editing the article in a way that makes Malagurski look as bad as possible. I hope that this won't happen, but everything Pincrete and some other editors have done to Malagurski-related articles had the goal of making Malagurski look bad, while everything I've done is to contribute to the neutrality of the article, not really wanting to make Malagurski look good or bad, but so simply present what he does and what other sources write about him and his work. That's all. I follow his work and if it's a punishable offence to edit articles that interest me and discuss them on the article talk pages, sure, ban me. It's easier to ban one person and let the others do what they want to the article, as they've attempted before through canvassing, so I understand it's the easy way out. I've spent a lot of time on Misplaced Pages editing Malagurski-related articles and I think I made an honest contribution. If a ban is my prize, so be it, though I'm still proud of defending neutrality on Misplaced Pages, despite some editors manipulating the system to get rid of me. --UrbanVillager (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stop lying about other editors. bobrayner (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment on response, apart from myself, and UrbanVillager the editors who have contributed to the Boris Malagurski pages are Somedifferentstuff, Bobrayner, and … … Recent minor edits 23 editor, Tiptoethrutheminefield . So, it is difficult to understand who UrbanVillager's 'some other editors' could be. … … (I've discounted, bots, editors involved for 'Admin' reasons:- Ricky81682, Diannaa, Dougweller, Dennis Brown … … Retired editors Producer (Retired May 2014 ) … Opbeith (last BM edit 16/10/2012 ) … … Banned editors Kepkke, Staro Gusle … … I've also discounted any 'one-off' editors especially if edits were more than 2 years ago.) Pincrete (talk) 21:50, 2 November 2014 (UTC) … … Further comment on response, the response above is typical of UrbanVillager, he refers repeatedly to 'a few other editors', but (apart from me), does not name them (he cannot, there ARE only a few others). He repeatedly says that I and other editors have openly said we 'despise Malagurski and his work'. He accuses editors of canvassing. Pincrete (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Bobrayner - disruptive edits on Argentina-related articles, blatant POV-pushing on same.

Dear Administrative Staff:

Bobrayner is, for the upteenth time in over two years, pushing his pet opinion pieces (which he calls "reliable sources") on Argentina-related articles and arbitrarily deleting referenced facts and news every chance he gets. Bob Rayner has been pushing POV on articles related to Argentina (and elsewhere) since at least 2012, deleting mention of actual, sourced events, and misrepresenting opinion pieces and wishful thinking in the form of snarky op-eds from at The Economist (well-known for its highly opinionated editorials), or obscure sources like Seeking Alpha, as fact.

He's also fond of blanket reversals - even to unrelated grammatical and other minor edits - while deleting mention of actual event and replacing them with his favorite opinion pieces, some nothing more than bad-faith predictions by the business press (definitely not RS) and all highly biased. In the case of Renationalization of YPF, for instance, he's been cut-and-pasting op-eds as if these were factual edits, while deleting real news involving Chevron and Morgan Stanley, etc. for no reason.

Other examples include: here, here, here, and here.

I don't edit much anymore, but I do like to keep an eye on some of these articles as they make easy targets for POV-pushers like Bob Rayner. I had hoped to avoid bringing this up; but I've been dealing almost single-handedly with his deletions and bad-faith editorials for three years now. Please help if you can.

Thank You. Sherlock4000 (talk) 22:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

You were just warned for edit-warring whilst logged out, then you stalked me, reverting all my edits? Oh dear.

I think this edit speaks for itself. No doubt there are some people who really want to believe what INDEC says, but umpteen reliable independent sources say that it's wrong. Calling anybody who disagrees with you a "vandal" won't change that. Hammering the revert button won't change it either. On wikipedia, we should follow what reliable sources say, and the sooner you stop reverting - or have the ability removed - the sooner articles about the economy of Argentina will reflect reliable sources. And when other editors warn you for systematic copyright violations, writing it off as "garbage" is not a good move either. bobrayner (talk) 22:57, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

• To me this appears to be a dispute on which sources are more reliable. Sherlock4000 seems to favor the Argentina government figures, while saying the Economist is unreliable. bobrayner seems to be saying the Economist is reliable but the Argentina government is not. I would suggest you both discuss this at the thread that bobrayner opened up here:Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#INDEC and if you get consensus there and if whichever one of you is not on the consensus side continues to add non reliable sources, then you come back here. Can you, Sherlock4000, point to a prior WP:RSN consensus decision on this that I might have missed? --Obsidi (talk) 23:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

• There has certainly never been an RSN thread which supported the use of INDEC. However, although that's near the heart of our disagreement, the problem does cover more than just reliable sources; Sherlock4000 has some problems with stalking, personal attacks, and copyright too. bobrayner (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Obsidi. Regarding his INDEC edits, he not only added editorials whose bias and unsuitability as RS speaks for itself ("Don't Lie to me Argentina" by the opinion magazine the Economist!?), added nothing that wasn't already under the Controversy section of the article. Besides being argumentative at best, he's blatantly trying to give controversies undue weight, while the "sources" themselves were mostly mere editorials and added nothing to what was already there.

Then there are these two gems of the world of bias (}} and ), which Bob pushes constantly just to trumpet your personal view that the renationalization of YPF was just to create a "feeding trough for her political cronies" and a "symptom of weak government institutions." You know, the only other time I recall another editor noticing this, it was to warn him that he was parading op-eds as fact and that the opinions of a random Economist correspondent do not meet notability guidelines and cannot be presented as fact. These types of opinion piece were usually added, by the way, while deleting mention of real-life news - and so often I've lost count.

Then there's the question of the mass deletions, like here. Whether or not you think the data is reliable is no reason to arbitrarily delete them; in the U.S. for example it's widely believed that consumer price inflation is understated as well, but that doesn't give editors the right to delete EVERYTHING the BEA publishes (even completely unrelated things, like import and export percentages, as you've done in this case). I might add that where there has been controversy (mainly regarding inflation data) I took care to add notes to that effect.

Finally, I should add that, as Bob knows very well, I was not edit-warring while logged out, since to do that I would have had to been using BOTH ip address AND a log on while involved in the same series of edit reverts.

Considering all this, Bob, it would seem that you have a real problem making constructive, neutral additions to anything having to do with Argentina - particularly on economics-related articles. Again, I hate bothering others with things like this; but this has been going on since at least 2012, and I no longer think it would ever stop unless I brought this up to someone's attention.

Thanks, and all the best. Sherlock4000 (talk) 00:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so your not arguing the economist is not a reliable source, just that he is using the economist blog articles as facts in WP voice. That I can more understand. You guys can dispute the reliability of the Argentina government over at WP:RSN. bobrayner can you please not source the economist blog entries as fact (those that are under the /blogs/ url)? (you are free to source them like any WP:NEWSBLOG though with attribution). But I am not willing to say he should be sanctioned at this time, especially when I see edits like this by you Sherlock4000: This appears to be sourced by a non-blog economist article (along with a variety of other sources). Both of you need to be more careful about your sourcing from what I can see. --Obsidi (talk) 00:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes. That's basically it, thank you - and it's been going on for OVER TWO YEARS. I might add that the edit you pointed to (#107) was mostly the moving of the reliability controversy (not deleting it) to the "Controversy" section within the INDEC article, since Bob slapped it on the lead in an attempt to give it undue weight. The little editorial he added at the bottom of the article is also gratuitous, frankly, as well as repititious, as it just restates what had already been belabored in the Controversy section without adding anything new. Sherlock4000 (talk) 00:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

FYI, The Economist is a respected and most definitively reliable source. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It's hardly just the Economist. For instance, this is an impeccably reliable source, published by a university press; there's also the IMF and the WSJ and the FT and so on; but Sherlock4000 automatically reverts. bobrayner (talk) 00:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh my. Can you provide diffs? In any case, best would be to attract eyeballs to these articles using RFCs. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:19, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Obsidi and Cwobeel:

It's not that I'm trying to impose INDEC data to the exclusion of any caveats - on the contrary, I've added most of those caveats myself. If you'll look at the history of Renationalization of YPF, you'll see that he's deleting real news while adding opinion pieces - and had done so REPEATEDLY. He's using them as primary sources, but of course they're not proof of anything. These are just some examples: here, here, here, here, and here.

Thanks. Sherlock4000 (talk) 00:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Look, Sherlock4000. When I see an editor using edit summaries on reverts with "Vandal", "removing POV pushing" and other similar, it is a read flag right there. Opinion pieces are not different than "real news" (whatever that means); if properly attributed and if the sources are reliable opinions are 100% usable in articles. You may need to re-read WP:NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the argument at least is lack of proper attribution as an opinion (at least for those that really are actually are marked as blogs and not articles by the economist), and just stated as fact, which they shouldn't do for WP:NEWSBLOG. --Obsidi (talk) 00:32, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

That is easily fixed, instead of "The expropriation is a symptom of weak government institutions", use "According to The Economist, the expropriation is a symptom of weak government institutions." - Cwobeel (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, no, Cwobeel, because that's a nothing but an editorial - and a very nasty and biased one at that. Whatever objections there were to the renationalization are amply covered in the article; this would just be injecting a biased -and mistaken- op ed that contributes no real-world information at all. Furthermore, it's from an unknown op-ed writer ("R.A."?) and it's predictions (the op ed piece is over two years old) turned out to be dead wrong, since the firm has managed to turn a 6% yearly decline in output up to then into 3% growth in '13 and 15% growth in the first half of this year (something Bob repeatedly tried to delete, btw). Thanks. Sherlock4000 (talk) 01:32, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources can be biased. And Misplaced Pages operates on verifiability, not truth, we are not here to WP:Right great wrongs. Its from a professional at the Economist a respected reliable source. That's good enough. --Obsidi (talk) 01:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Sherlock4000, please stop misrepresenting my edits. Hopefully any other editor who takes the time to look deeper into this will see that I've cited more than one Economist article - and other reliable sources too. Writing it all off as one stray "editorial" or an "opinion paper" really isn't going to help, nor does it justify your systematic whitewashing of articles. It's clear to other editors that you and your IPs have been revert-stalking; it's clear that multiple other editors have warned you about copyright problems; and the new trick of claiming that you add caveats even though there are lots of diffs where you and your IPs did no such thing, well, that's the icing on the cake.

I should stop responding to any further comments by Sherlock4000 or their IPs here, since engaging is just going to increase the drama. bobrayner (talk) 01:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, Bob. Good night. Obsidi, whether or not such editorials are reliable material is frankly dubious - especially since they're injecting no facts, just invective and someone's wishful thinking. What Bob's been adding -and on the lead, I might add, for maximum undue weight- are just someone's opinions, though, because those op eds rarely if ever had anything factual to contribute (certainly not the ones he used in Renationalization of YPF). He certainly has no problem deleting what Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz wrote (). Thanks. Sherlock4000 (talk) 01:54, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You came here to accuse other editors, but from what I see is that you may be the problematic editor. WP:BOOMERANG indeed. Heed the advice given here, and play nice. - Cwobeel (talk) 01:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

How so, Cwobeel - because Bob goes on about how he can't be bothered to reply? How did I insult him? He insults everyone by wasting everyone's time FOR TWO YEARS with his pet op eds about "feeding troughs" and someone's wishful thinking that buying back a badly-run company is "renationalizing their way to poverty". They turned it around in just two years!

Such edits contribute nothing factual, useful, or in any way accurate to the article at all, and in fact inject notions that fly in the face of real-world results. More so because he's trying to tack them onto the lead, for maximum effect. Sherlock4000 (talk) 02:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

For the record, Bobrayner has been disruptive when it comes to other articles as well, especially regarding Boris Malagurski-related and Yugoslavia-related articles. So, it's no surprise that he's disruptive when it comes to other articles as well. --UrbanVillager (talk) 18:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

This isn't helpful (and borderline WP:WIKIHOUNDING). --Obsidi (talk) 21:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Hip Hop Rabbit Hole

Could someone please check this out and take appropriate action. I'm just going out of town and have no time to handle it.

I just deleted Phines "NOP" West. It connects to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Phines0001, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Phines West, and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Phines A.H. West. The quotes help recreation of deleted articles, of course.

Phines "NOP" West was worked on/created by User:Johnwilliams000, User:Kellymillezzz, User:Delrayisit.

User:Johnwilliams000 created Joseph "808" Derivé (also worked on by User:Kellymillezzz). The refs that I can check do not seem to go to the subject. Joseph "808" Derivé leads to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph Derivé.

Thanks for any help you can provide. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It's all fake - I can't find any sources to support any of the claims at Joseph "808" Derivé, and I can find resources to refute some. For example, this person is claimed to be the producer of Bad Boys (Alexandra Burke song) (actually produced by The Phantom Boyz) and Loud (Rihanna album) (multiple producers, but not this guy). Some of the works mentioned have had their articles changed to say that Phines/808/Derivé is a producer, but there's no sourcing for it - see . There are lots of Google hits for Phines/808/Derivé but all look to be user-generated and I can find no proper sources. Neatsfoot (talk) 10:29, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've requested deletion - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Joseph "808" Derivé Neatsfoot (talk) 10:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Deleted G3 as an obvious hoax. Black Kite (talk) 11:19, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked all three of the above-mentioned accounts... based on their contributions, the quacking is so loud, I'm surprised that hadn't been done yet. I'm sure there are some sleepers, but I don't think a CU is needed at this time. I'll leave it to someone else to determine if the article Kehlani falls under the purview of WP:CSD#G5. --Kinu /_c 09:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Is there any way to deal with these repeated creations of "Phines*West" via MediaWiki:Titleblacklist or other sort of pattern-matching protection? --Kinu /_c 16:32, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Couple of things... First, a filter or blacklist on "Phines" wouldn't really be enough, as the latest hoaxing has switched to 'Joseph "808" Derivé' and '808'. Also, it looks like this has been going on since 2012 - see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Phines0001/Archive, and that there's an elaborate hoax been developed on a number of internet sites. Neatsfoot (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Neatsfoot, Black Kite, and Kinu. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Can we add "Siduri" to the username blacklist and create an edit filter?

Socks of blocked user User:Jim-Siduri have been trolling around for the past few days. Something about how there's two days left until something in his hoax religion. KonveyorBelt 17:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Support the proposal, although it will only stop some of the throw-away account names used by this troll (who was formerly a well-meaning but deeply clueless editor until he was indeffed and became a troll). (Are his rants about 5 November in any way related to the threats of Anonymous to do something on 5 November?) Robert McClenon (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)I expect his rants are related to Anonymous; back in September a Jim-Siduri twitter account was posting in support of the group. Ca2james (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• There's no point, as he only edits from IP addresses - the apparent "Siduri" usernames are just hashtags included in the body of his edits. Neatsfoot (talk) 17:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • PS: What he seems to want to do is post some "Church of Siduri" advocacy on Nov 5, and I think he's just piggy-backing on Anonymous the same way he's tried piggy-backing on gender gap, etc. Neatsfoot (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there is much point in an edit filter, given that it would only catch a small proportion of Jim-Siduri's socks. As for Anonymous, there is no link other than in Jim-Siduri's imagination - his 'threats' consist of nothing but claims that he is going to sue Misplaced Pages for not providing free publicity for his fantasy 'church', and that he is going to create a Misplaced Pages fork. Neither of which are the slightest bit concerning to anyone in possession of a few brain cells. I'm inclined to think that WP:DENY is an entirely adequate response, and that any action beyond this is only likely to encourage his delusion that he is somehow significant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• I only see one currently claimed sock listed at SPI with "siduri" in the name. I just blocked it. Dennis - 2¢ 17:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose He's on a dynamic IP and creating an edit filter - "siduri", I believe is not worth it. I would prefer a CU on him and blocking his IP range. Meanwhile, we can add him to DeltaQuadBot's username blacklist. But I believe the bot's down. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose a username filter as there are too few such usernames. Support an edit filter for 'siduri', allowed only for established users. Binksternet (talk) 18:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• A thought... As Jim-Siduri has declared that "my friends and I want to put the "Siduri's Advice" video on the Siduri page within the next 48 hours (on #Nov5)" (), perhaps a preventative protection of that page until Nov 6? Neatsfoot (talk) 13:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I've requested page protection at RPP. Neatsfoot (talk) 13:19, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I can't argue against EdJohnston's choice of tools and duration. That should help with the immediate problem. As for the socks elsewhere, they are quite easy to spot, so playing "whack-a-mole" when they pop up is probably sufficient. As for filters, I'm neutral. I don't see the utility in it, but maybe just because I lack imagination. Dennis - 2¢ 17:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Lfrankbalm

So. I tried to give some advice to this editor on their talk page, but it seems like they 1) don't care and 2) are using their talk page as a sort of ranty Facebook soapbox. I know I was being a bit jargon-y with all the shortcut links and stuff, but, seriously? I don't want to deal with this - can someone else try to talk to them or something, perhaps give a little warning prod to behave? Thanks, ansh666 20:54, 3 November 2014 (UTC) (I'm not watching, {{ping}} me if anything comes up.)

Let me just make this clear to you; WP:ASSHOLE--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The talk page is in need of serious cleanup to return it to a non-soapbox state. The behaviour of the user appears to be short of civility and the above statement could quite possibly be a personal attack . Do we have a three strike rule? Amortias (T)(C) 21:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, no civility on my part here, because the idiocarcy which is Misplaced Pages needs transparency, call it what it is a big lie, a dissonance machine, a waste of time, a welfare program to feed the weak minded. THERE ARE MANY FOOLISH INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE ACTUALLY USING THIS RAG-TRIPE AS A DAY TO DAY FACTUAL REFERENCE. Until you edit this damn thing... you don't realize how fucked up and unreliable it is. This platform provides dissonance with an industrial strength platform for propagation. It is the definition of a computer virus. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 21:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• They do seem very angry, don't they? I'll try to have a word. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No anger here;

My conclusion is that this technology provides a major societal disservice. The only parts of Misplaced Pages that are partially reliable consist of a few of the reference links, which for the most part are random in nature. Even the idea of secondary and primary sources is bizarrely-wrong as it applies to research. No, I am not going to feed something that is societally detrimental. I am more than happy to part company with Misplaced Pages.

More so than that. This is just a blatantly-evil construct as implemented. It has the unintended opposite effect of spreading ignorance not knowledge. Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• @Lfrankbalm: If you want to go, go. If you want to stay, stay. Protonk (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

No comment (yet) on the civility/ranty bits here, but why are we bothering to care what someone does with their talk page? Just unwatch the page. Protonk (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

There also being unconstructive on AFD's which was the original cause for concern if im correct. Amortias (T)(C) 22:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I see that, I'm just taking every opportunity to push back against the community's recent habit of nosing into user/user talk pages of editors and getting offended by what they see. It's pointless and meddlesome in almost all cases (with obvious exceptions for blatant personal attacks, shit lists, etc.). Protonk (talk) 22:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What Amortias said is correct. After I attempted to give them advice about AfD, I got slammed with rants about how I was an asshole and Misplaced Pages is a breeding ground for ignorance, as far as I can interpret it. I have no real comment on the rants (other than that I don't think they meet WP:OWNTALK), but their uncivil attitude, including personal attacks, was concerning to me. ansh666 22:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

While I agree with the principle of leaving other peoples talkpages well alone the personal attacks and general soapboxing despite being advised against this does seem to be hitting every note of WP:NOTHERE. If they were just going on about something without throwing out at people who were offering advice etc it'd be one thing (that I would understand if let slide) but they just dont seem to be willing to contribute constructivley. Amortias (T)(C) 22:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I apologize to you on a personal basis.. Breeding ground for ignorance is quite correct. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:15, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Apology accepted, thank you. ansh666 22:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've only just encountered Lfrankbalm in the last few days, first at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bibliography of the Tonga people (Africa), where I was unsuccessful in explaining notability of bibliographies (but it's a pretty weird category of article, so that's understandable). Still, I noticed there and elsewhere problematic WP:POINT and WP:COMPETENCE (or WP:IDHT) issues. The most recent talk page message looks to be the first thing egregious enough to come to ANI, though, so I don't know if this is misplaced. I'm basically concerned he/she is engaging with article deletion processes unconcerned with applying/following consensus-based guidelines many people have linked him/her to. Dismissal of Misplaced Pages as something with value here and at the blog-like talk page suggest WP:NOTHERE. Some WP:AGF is in order as this is a new user (although an account with edits almost entirely at AfD, nominating things for deletion, and working on pages he/she thinks should be deleted suggests some experience), but the basics have been explained/linked a number of times and seems to fall on deaf ears.

• For example at this AfD he/she started comments with Delete Palestinians, see Gaza Strip, definitely use asymmetric tactics to cast themselves falsely as the victim through the absorption of collateral damage (unnecessary loss of civilian life)., later admitting the intention of using AfD as a forum. Shortly thereafter he/she created Israeli child killing apparently to make a WP:POINT about the stone-throwing AfD.
• !voting in AfDs with rationales like "subject-matter is irrelevant", arguing delete based on links currently in an article, no rationale whatsoever, various commentary. Most of the user's own nominations are with clear disregard or indifference to relevant guidelines (e.g. this article which a basic glance at the relevant notability guideline rather than personal criteria would have clarified the person's fitness for inclusion (criterion #3 even gives "royal society" as an example, which, while Canadian rather than English, is quite prominent in the article)). I don't know that any of this is block-worthy, but the efforts of myself and others do not seem to be effective.
• Devil's advocates/critics are a useful thing on Misplaced Pages, and there are some edits that show this user may have things to contribute, but needs to better understand how things work before engaging in things like page deletions. I have a feeling after this my help might not be wanted, but as it's not a personal thing -- lots of people jump into AfDs, myself included, without quite knowing how they work -- I'd be happy to answer questions if Lfrankbalm wants help before nominating something for deletion, etc. --— Rhododendrites \\ 22:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

-Believe it or not, the discussions here are quite positive in terms (of forming a perception) on the process. For the record I did not create the Israeli child killing entry, I simply redirected it to Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict; as to tallest buildings in xxx it-speaks for itself ludicrous,Martin Daly was my mistake. ; as to the bibliography.... errh.--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Would you be willing to take Rhododendrites up on their offer of advice on AFD's and have a look at your talk page to see fi theres anthing that might be considered a personal attack meant or otherwise that could be removed? Amortias (T)(C) 22:41, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

They've removed...much of their talk page (~7000 bytes), including everything that started this. I'm fine with that, though my comments did include some useful links. ansh666 22:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I wouldnt believe it if I hadn't seen it myself but this could be a constructive non-blocking outcome from an ANI! Amortias (T)(C) 22:49, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe it either. This discussion has been constructive from an overview-perspective. I am not quite as "fatal" in terms of my perceptions. In the first edit attempt, I attempted to do a minor edit on a "now deleted entry" to have every minor revision countered unbelievable resistance by a user abusing the process. I was viewing everything from that perspective. This discussion counters that in spades. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 22:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

As to User:Rhododendrites offer, sure why not..--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:01, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll bung a welcome notice with some useful links at the top of your talk page if you want. It might be useful to point you in the direction of places for advice. I'd also suggest popping over to the teahouse if you have any questons as they are very good at providing advice. Amortias (T)(C) 23:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

-thanks.--Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I left a comment on their talk page regarding one of the AfDs that was contentious. For what it's worth, I did not get an insulting reply. That's good. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

As long as I have caused a fire-storm here.. Would anybody mind "locking" NYS Ebike Law from further edits.. The entry is now correct to fact.. --Star Log, Lfrankblam, Kirk Out (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that one would get through the process to protect a page we only lock pages to prevent vandalism and major disputes that are going to affect the quality of the article. You could add it to you watchlist to keep an eye out for vandalism if your interested. There may be changes or other information that may be pertinent that other users may be able to add to the section to improve it orad other relevent information such as legla cases that are relevent additional sources and other facts that help t improve the reliability. Amortias (T)(C) 23:22, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I too have encountered Lfrankbalm recently, but all I know for sure is that he didn't understand WP:BEFORE before nominating Martin Daly for deletion. It seems I'm not the only one concerned about his behavior at AFD, though (see this edit). Also, I agree with Ansh666 that he has been misusing his talk page as per WP:OWNTALK. Jinkinson talk to me 02:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'm also concerned that Lfrankbalm does not understand the WP:ILLEGIT use of alternative accounts. For example, User:Renaissancego was created on October 21, 2014 and all edits to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gonzalo Lira and Doug Casey overlap with Lfrankbalm. Adnarkey edited Doug Casey here and here between Lfrankbalm here and the IP Lfrankbalm regularly uses here. In addition to being similarly uncivil, all of these accounts have the unusual behavioral characteristic of often double signing posts: Lfrankbalm , Renaissancego: , Adnarkey , and Iotablue . If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance, but I am very concerned about the use of alternative accounts. --I am One of Many (talk) 04:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

er, "LFrankBalm" sounds a LOT like L. Frank Baum, the author of the Wizard of Oz stories, but more interesting is his first post mentioned Misplaced Pages jargon right out of the gate . Could this be a possible secondary I.D ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 12:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

-I created an Id to address the issue and concern with the Gonzola Lira article, it was necessary to do a request for help regarding a user who owned the topic.. .--Lfrankblam (talk) 13:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I pointed out the username similarity to L. Frank Baum to WP:UAA and the response was that impersonating someone who's been long deceased is not a violation of the policy. I guess it's a BLP thing. As for the alternative accounts, there are valid uses for alternates and it doesn't seem like this user is deliberately misusing them. The user has shown great willingness here to own up to their mistakes and reform; perhaps if they review the alternate accounts policy and retire whichever alternates they might be using inappropriately, we can let this one slide? Ivanvector (talk) 13:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Were I you I would WP:Site ban this fellow, seriously If I had the intent (which I don't) to cause absolute chaos on Misplaced Pages you would be seeing absolute chaos on Misplaced Pages.... --Lfrankblam (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC) BTW, I also reverted the redirect of "The International Man," on the basis it is the correct thing to do! Lfrankblam (talk) 14:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I would encourage the community to give Lfrankbalm a little slack here as they had a very bad first experience on Gonzalo Lira and were bullied and abused by an editor who 'owned' the article. That article has been AfD'd and the bully user has not edited since Oct. 20th. I'm hopeful that now Lfrankbalm can see the bigger picture and be a productive editor here going forward. If there are multiple accounts then that could be excused if he/she comes clean and they are all closed and there is an understanding that this is not acceptable for future per WP:SOCK.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Long-term copyright concerns: User:Light show

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Light show (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Wikiwatcher1

This user, formerly known as Wikiwatcher1, has been under a WP:CCI investigation since April 2012 for questionable file uploads and has been indefinitely blocked on Commons since 30 November 2013 (after having been previously blocked in August 2012 for the same problem under his old account). An RFC/U in October 2012 failed to gain enough participation to read consensus. Multiple discussion at WP:MCQ have floated concerns, from diverse users: User:Ww2censor, User:Howcheng, User:Masem, User:We hope, User:Crisco 1492, User:TheFeds, User:Quadell, (8/2013, 12/2013 - there may be and probably are more) including repeated cautions that care must be taken in uploading images. He was advised by one of the WMF attorney that for us to be certain of copyright he needs to verify on upload whether an image contained a copyright notice, how the exact image was released, and whether the release was "general" or "limited". He's been told by community repeatedly that he must upload both front and back of an image to demonstrate that there was no copyright notice. Yet he continues uploading images that consume community time and resources in evaluation and that are questionable in copyright status determination - see Misplaced Pages:Possibly_unfree_files/2014_October_5#File:Anne_Bancroft_-_1955.JPG (deleted image was uploaded in 9/2014) - and see file:Anne_Bancroft_-_1964.jpg, uploaded without back (so that no assertion can be made regarding copyright); File:Don Murray 1956.JPG, very clear copyright notice cropped out (no information on how he determined that it was not renewed); File:Larry_Parks_1950.jpg, what could potentially be a copyright notice, cropped; File:Rosemary_Clooney_1954.jpg, very clear copyright notice cropped out (no information on how he determined that it was not renewed). He has uploaded many good images, but has never seemed willing to do the due diligence or exercise the necessary caution in image work. His deleted edit count for the file namespace has well over 1,000 edits. I'm not sure how many files deleted that represents; somebody with a tool might count - some of those files may have been moved to Commons before they began deleting them there, but he clearly has had the same issues for years: see this 2009 example). No efforts to get this user to improve his documentation practices seem to have worked. I am at a loss for what to suggest, unless it's that we ask him to stop uploading images (thereby losing the good images he does upload) or stop bothering with the ones that maybe aren't so good. Other contributors shouldn't have to waste their time cleaning up after somebody who isn't interested in changing his documentation processes. Bringing it here for other input. Please help. (Lots of notifications to follow, although "ping" may do its job while I'm doing so.) --Moonriddengirl 21:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Support ban on image uploading. Light Show has continued to try to fall back on the highly generalized argument that promotion photos/stills from that era were frequently not marked to match copyright, which, while I don't doubt is true, clearly does not extent to all such images, and why we need proof positive that there's no such markings, moreso from someone that has been under copyright investigations. WP's concept for free images is based on positive affirmation that the image is in the free, otherwise assuming non-free, and Light show's approach and assumptions atop past behavior does not support this. --MASEM (t) 22:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) (edit conflict) Support ban on uploads, per the above and per competence is required. It sounds to me as though the user's good contributions are outweighed by the amount of community time it takes to verify their submissions, and many editors have made an effort to get the editor to improve. If we're at the point that the WMF's lawyers have spoken to the user and they still won't change, we basically have no choice but to ban the user from uploading images. Ivanvector (talk) 22:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, Ivanvector. :) I want to be sure that's clear, though - the attorney feedback was given in response to a question about how to determine if a publicity still is public domain when the CCI was requested. Misplaced Pages:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Wikiwatcher1#Attorney_reply --Moonriddengirl 22:18, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I went and had a look at the CCI after I posted my comment. Like you said, the legal team gave feedback on specific criteria for due diligence, and the user was given instructions (per Moonriddengirl above, to upload front and back, etc.), not by the lawyers but by the community, and the user has not followed those instructions if I'm reading Moonriddengirl's discussion above correctly. It seems the user has good intentions but has tunnel-vision when it comes to copyright law, and this creates more work for everyone to double-check all of their contributions. The CCI itself lists hundreds of possibly non-free contribs from this user. That's too much. Ivanvector (talk) 23:07, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Support Our last visit to this subject was at MCQ in June of this year. I was ready to support a topic ban then and am supporting it now. The editor's practices haven't changed. Just about every 6 months, he complains at MCQ that copyright regulations are being ignored at WP. Have never seen anyone agree with his position; everyone tries telling him (again) what the rules for the projects are and he proceeds to tell all of us that we're wrong and he's the only one who is right. I've nominated many of his uploads here at PUF and at Commons DR. Even with the Commons block and possible topic ban here, sorry to say, I believe many more both here and at Commons are questionable. We hope (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on image uploading. After reading through the last MCQ thread, I can't clearly tell if Light show is unwilling or unable to understand copyright and NFCC policies—either way, they ought not be uploading anything at all. This has already taken way to much community time. --Laser brain (talk) 23:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I've repeatedly been engaged with this editor, mostly at Commons, over similar issues, and they're now under a Commons ban for refusing to comply with very basic requirements. Aside from the notice problems that Moonriddengirl describes, Wikiwatcher just doesn't appreciate the importance of establishing the date and place of first publication -- or even the basic fact of publication. I've found, as I recall, images marked only for UK distribution as published in the US; images with no evidence of publication uploaded with unsupported publication dates (most egregiously, taken from ebay listings reporting the images came from collections of mostly unpublished photos); and older images taken from recent books with claims, unsupported by evidence, that the images were published in the year they were taken. Light show/Wikiwatcher, underneath it all, doesn't accept the need to provide convincing evidence that each image they upload meets Misplaced Pages's requirements for showing that an image is free for use and reuse -- instead, they've argued, over and over and over, that because many "publicity" photos have ended up as free, all publicity photos should be treated as free unless proven otherwise. The amount of work that other editors have been forced to do because LS/Ww1 doesn't accept reasonable, accurate community standards is just too great. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 01:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support Images like these although seemingly harmless really should have been looked into more first. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: While there is an implication that WP does respect U.S. copyright law, it's only in so far as it's useful to attack the uploads, not support them. The U.S. attorney who replied to the CCI said: It is likely that promotional materials, including production stills or posters released to promote a movie, released before 1978 are in the public domain. The questions they said should be answered were, 1) Did the image contain a copyright notice? 2) How was the exact image released? and 3) Was the image release “general” or “limited?” And one way or the other all those questions have been answered for my uploads. Question #2, which you guys never seem to understand, is that a publicity photo is released en masse to the media. And during the CCI, at least one experienced editor did the research and commented, After seeing what Wikiwatcher1 has said here and reviewing some of the deleted images, I think most of their images are probably okay and were deleted too hastily.

MRG wrote that I "never seemed willing to do the due diligence or exercise the necessary caution." Never? C'mon. The comment about Bancroft not showing the back, when it's 100% clear that any notice would be printed on the front, along with all the other details, is incorrect. The comment about Murray's photo, which showed the uncropped version and no copyright was found with a simple search, is wrong. Likewise, Larry Parks' photo, which had all image details printed on the front, doesn't need the back. And no, the copyright notice on Rosemary Clooney was not cropped out. As stated, there was no registered renewal per a simple 1-minute search.

The essence of the problem in my opinion is that the image deletionist editors, primarily We Hope, are not too concerned with U.S. copyright law and really feel it's almost irrelevant with regard to photos. I posted a comment about that last year. The topic is strange, or worrisome, because WP relies on U.S. copyright laws in its tagging system. However, the editors who keep attacking the uploads go by EU or UK law.

Hence, Masem, considers well established U.S. copyright law as not much more than a "generalized argument," ignoring the experts at Film still. Fastily, who blocked me at the Commons, deleted an image that I said I had in my possession, and would upload a scan of the back if needed. Result: deleted, There is no evidence presented to substantiate this (probably false) PD claim. Another non-U.S. Commons editor, deleted an image that showed the front and back, because of insufficient information to verify no notice claim. Another Commons editor mass deleted images on two occasions, with no rational, no tags, no warning, no notices, no questions, nothing. All deleted with no explanation. Another Commons editor who has deleted around a hundred PD images, mostly from the 1930s to 1950s, with no copyright notice, expects the impossible: Unless we have definitive, explicit written and/or textual, tangible evidence from a credible, verifiable source naming this file as freely licensed under a Commons compatible license, we simply cannot host it on Commons.

We Hope has caused the deletion of hundreds of valid PD images simply because he chose to ignore published Copyfraud violations by Corbis, who puts a notice on all their web site images, 99.99% of which they don't own. When I explained to him with legal support that the Corbis copyright notices are bogus, he simply says he doesn't care and stands by the deletions. He has deleted an unknown number of images by relying on erroneous copyrights, as when they continually rely on a motion picture copyright instead of photographic image copyrights, which are totally different. I tried to explain that to him on a few occasions, as recently as last March on their talk page. Response? None, he simply deletes my comments. He again used that same erroneous reason for tagging another Anne Bancroft image last month, which got deleted anyway without reason. Whatever We Hope tags gets deleted.

Obviously, I take copyright law very seriously. I took a year of copyright at Boalt and still have a stack of copyright books. I was doing photography professionally for newspapers and magazines back in high school and college for income. I've since consulted with copyright attorneys about various matters over the years, including Google's early attorney. And since, IMO, the attorney you've contacted about this does not specialize in copyright, I'd be happy to reimburse WP if they want to find one that does to get their opinions about all this. If you want me to find one and forward their opinions, that's OK also. Your option. I've pretty much stopped uploading any non-U.S. images because of all the hullabaloo, but for U.S. images it should help clear things up. I hope We Hope is up for the task of restoring 400-500 images if the copyright attorney says they were fine. If you want me to stop uploading photos pending a copyright attorney's opinions, let me know. No problem. However, if you want me to agree that U.S. copyright law is irrelevant, that will be a problem. --Light show (talk) 01:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Labeling an image that would be non-free as free incorrectly/without sufficient evidence is akin to letting the genie out of the bottle - you can't get it back in, and creates a legal problem for Misplaced Pages. (The reverse, however, labeling a free image as non-free mistakenly, is not an issue). Hence why we (both en.wiki and commons) require proof positive of an image being in the PD rather than an assumption. It is likely true the majority of film stills are in the PD due to lack of notice, but that's an assumption we cannot safely rest on given there do appear to be limited number that have this. This has been pointed out several times to you and you've chosen to ignore the advice and guidelines set, repeating the same thing about copyright law before, but clearly not understanding we are purposely stricter than that to drive free content generation and to avoid legal hassles; as such, the ban against uploading is easily warranted. --MASEM (t) 04:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree. WP "requires proof positive of an image being in the PD rather than an assumption." But the proof of copyright is very clear, and there is no room for assumptions. If a noted expert on the subject states, Publicity photos (star headshots) have traditionally not been copyrighted, that's a fact for reference. But the proof required is always based on the original photo, with nothing assumed.

However, if this entire discussion is because some photos did not show the reverse, then please make that clearer. I've been complying with that new rule for a long time, and the few times I've skipped it is when, like in my recent uploads, the copyright notice was on the front but was not renewed, or the image info was fully printed on the front without a copyright. But if you want even those to show the back, fine. Just let me know. --Light show (talk) 05:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban after reading the tirade above. Your education and your attorney's opinion have no bearing on policy here. Dennis - 2¢ 01:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per above. Thomas.W 11:49, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban per Fallacy of the undistributed middle. Neatsfoot (talk) 12:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on image uploads. Copyright law is no place for guesswork or assumptions. Clean-up places a huge burden on the community. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support I've dealt with WW1/LS in connection with the CCI and other image issues. Enough is enough. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Long-time disruptive editor User:Alexyflemming resorts to trolling

Scroll down to Though I am not an artist to inquiry to artistic value ... here (diffs: , , ). After User:TU-nor offers genuine advice about how to improve the picture on the sidebar, he responds with mockery. This user has a history of disrupting anything to do with Cyprus. I don't even know where to start. Here is where he's persistently falsifying a source. Here is where he rants on about Armenians and Greeks unprovoked. Here is where he admits to OR, but insists on adding his imaginative map to the article. And this is but a sample. I think people have already wasted plenty enough time trying to prevent his harming the encyclopaedia; simply, this adds insult to injury. I don't know what, but something should be done. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 01:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I support the assertions of the IP editor. Wherever Alexyflemming (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edits, editors have to be close by to correct or delete the POV of his edits. My recent AE report on him got rejected due to an ARBMAC clarification by Arbcom on its applicability on Cyprus-related issues. I have linked to it here because it has a variety of links which show the longterm disruption this user has engaged in. Recently he hijacked the talkpage of Talk:Akrotiri and Dhekelia with loud walls of text supporting the edits of blocked sock Gasmonitor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and trying to push an OR map that he made which by the way has the filename File:UK SBA EEZ.png as compared to Gasmonitor's File:UK SBA EEA.png which was deleted, please see Gasmonitor's talkpage. He also comments in external forums  :

  Alexy flemmings • 12 hours ago Greedy Greek Cypriots think that they can steal the natural gas and oil of BOTH Englishs and Turks.They will awaken from their dreams very soon!

and then uses the forum as a source in the discussion. There are many more diffs available for personal attacks, POV edits, OR, SYNTH, you name it, but I would like to avoid overloading the reader. Δρ.Κ.  02:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• "My recent AE report on him got rejected due to..."
  

Then why are you still holding the stick in your hand, WP:DROPTHESTICK.

From WP:DROPTHESTICK page:

If you have "lost" – sorry, hard luck. Now go about your business; don't keep reminding us that your "opponent" didn't actually "win" because of... whatever.

Recently he hijacked the talkpage of Talk:Akrotiri and Dhekelia...

Discussing an issue in Talk page with other Wiki users is "hijacking" since when?

and trying to push an OR map

Discussing an issue in Talk page with other Wiki users is "try to push an OR" since when?

Gasmonitor's File:UK SBA EEA.png

Do you know UK is the abbreviation of United kingdom (very frequently used), SBA is the abbreviation of Sovereign Base Areas (very frequently used), ... If that user used EEA for Exclusive Economic "Zone", i.e. "A" for Zone, then definitely he would be incapable one since "EEZ" and "Exclusive Economic Zone" is the official standard names.

He also comments in external forums

We are in Misplaced Pages! To justify yourself, please use only the edits in Misplaced Pages. Do not travel the whole internet!

There are many more diffs available for personal attacks, POV edits, OR, SYNTH

See below to find the diff in which you said "Silly" to me! Look at also for your History Distortions part below.Alexyflemming (talk) 13:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I am not sure if user Alexyflemming is indeed trolling. I have recently clashed with the filing party of some north/south Cyprus related issues. And in that, I noticed a severe preference from mr. IP for the Greek names of human settlements now in the remit of Northern Cyprus. I plain disagree with the accusation that Dr.K is an "Very Obsessive Editor" as he is clearly trying to calm down mr. IP. The Banner talk 10:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Do provide diffs for this 'severe preference' and my needing to be calmed down. I can provide plenty diffs where you keep doing things you can't substantiate. Refuse to perform a technical move from Port of Gemikonagi, Lefke Cyprus to Port of Gemikonagi 'cause it'd 'complicate procedures' of a merge proposal, but then proceed to move the destination page without discussing it with anyone? Check. Attempt to pass if off as a revert? Check. Crumble to pressure when asked about it and accuse me of bias simply 'cause my IP is in south Cyprus? Check. Revert my edits without explanation? Check check check. Now, please stop spouting nonsense. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 11:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Do not downgrade the comments and posts of other Wiki users like spouting nonsense. You are new to Misplaced Pages. I am here since 2010. Be respectful to every Wikipedian whether they are agree or not with you! Alexyflemming (talk) 12:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'll speak my mind when I'm being denigrated. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 13:00, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• @Alexyflemming: You, talking about being respectful to other users? Remember your message on my talkpage?: Armenians said billions of times "genocide" since 1915 just as Greek Cypriots say billions of times "invasion" since 1974 and I said One can bury his head in the sand like an ostrich till the hunter (truth) faces him.. Please, transmit my this message to GC fanatics (perhaps you may know some of them) along with USA Federal Court decision so that they can take their heads out of sands. And this is just one of your many personal attacks. Δρ.Κ.  18:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Dear 213.7.147.34, here, a Wikipedian disagreed with you. He has the right to do so. I cannot imagine what you will respond to him if he said "silly", "paid supporter", etc. to you! You must learn the enduring and stomaching the criticism of other Wiki users. You must even protect your common sense in the case you are insulted. Do you know that even when I am said "silly", "paid supporter", etc. from disrespectful Wiki users, I still protected my common sense? You being very new to Misplaced Pages does not justify your behaviors of this kind!Alexyflemming (talk) 13:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• And here is where The Banner introduces a redirect from the anglicised Turkish name for Karavostasi, even after his move was reverted, saying it's a 'correction'. He's either having difficulty practising diligence, or he's being very WP:POINTy indeed. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think ALexyflemming is trolling, but he's definitely out on a mission and not here to build an encyclopaedia, as I noticed in a recent discussion I had with him on Talk:Akrotiri and Dhekelia, an article where he was edit-warring to get a self-made very POV and totally OR/SYNTH map into the article. Thomas.W 11:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, I don't know what you want to call this, but I though trolling was apt. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Though I am not an artist to inquiry to artistic value of the painting, I thought that there may be some Greeks who will not enjoy that as@ in such a main template. Any idea? As@ is in the center. Full balance! If a Turkish Cypriot put it there for devilment, shame on him...Alexyflemming (talk) 19:52, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

…

If I were (in place of) Greek Cypriots, I would not put that mosaic. I am sure the Helen culture in the Cyprus island has more artistic mosaics than this one. If they regard that especially that mosaic represent their History better, then that is their business, of course.Alexyflemming (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Thomas.W, what is more natural than Wiki users may think differently in things in discussion. What you call as edit-warring to get a self-made very POV and totally OR/SYNTH may be really so, may be not. But, does this justify the use of the insulting swearing words towards other Wiki users (Dr.K. said "silly" to me, Neo ^ said "paid supporter" to me)?Alexyflemming (talk) 12:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Your constant POV-pushing and the walls of strangely formatted text with odd indentation you add everywhere, combined with your total inability, or unwillingness, to listen to others, make other editors frustrated. Besides, neither "silly" nor "paid editor" are swearwords. Thomas.W 12:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Does this make us have to approach the usage of "silly", "paid supporter", etc. as something very normal? I want to emphasize the importance of politeness. Look what IP213 wrote above: "I'll speak my mind when I'm being denigrated" to justify his usage of "spouting nonsense". This is what I wanna say and show. People must approach respectfully to each other even in the cases where they strongly opposes each other! "Silly", "paid supporter", "spouting nonsense", etc.. If we (the Wikipedians for more than 5 years in WP) do not do this, who will do it... Alexyflemming (talk) 13:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Respect isn't confined to abstaining from uttering fairly innocuous non-curses. Do you think derailing discussions by refusing to follow talk guidelines when you've been told many times not to is respectful? Do you think edit-warring over the inclusion of a quote you've falsified across ten or so articles is respectful? 213.7.147.34 (talk) 13:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• After User:TU-nor offers genuine advice about how to improve the picture on the sidebar, he responds with mockery:
  

Read the responses given very carefully. Read what I wrote: "If a Turkish Cypriot put it there for devilment, shame on him". I considered a Turkish Cypriot might put it there. Hence, I requested TU-nor to check it. There is no mockery.

This user has a history of disrupting anything to do with Cyprus:

You are just describing yourself! There was a very determining single "case action" part in "Cyprus dispute" Wiki article since 2011. Once Greek Cypriots lost the case in October 2014, You (IP213) immediately removed it without any consensus! Even though you also edited the very same case action part, you eventually noticed that it is in no way to the good of Greek Cypriots and removed it!. That said, you (IP31) and Dr.K. removed the decision of the USA Federal Court from Northern Cyprus article as well though there are strict objections from other wiki users (Alexikoua, ])). This is not the way we do things in WP: Record whatever good for Greeks, delete whatever existed against them. Digest every good and bad things and accept them to be written in Misplaced Pages.

Here is where he admits to OR, but insists on adding his imaginative map to the article:

Who admits OR? Do not put the words into my mouth that I did not say. I even showed another map related with the article. That map was drawn according to international treaty btw Rep. of Cyprus and UK.Alexyflemming (talk) 12:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, I wrote "If a Turkish Cypriot put it there for devilment, shame on him". IP31, you are putting the words into my mouth that I did not say, and removing some parts (here: "for devilment") of my words to justify yourself! When you bring a case here, reflect everything as they are!Alexyflemming (talk) 12:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• So let me get this straight, you think a Turkish Cypriot might've put that mosaic there to spite Greek Cypriots because the mosaic depicts a bum? Words fail me. No, nobody is this stupid. You're trolling. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 12:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Do not hide my relevant posts, and do not bring here whatever suits you! Read, read, read carefully what I wrote:
  

If I were (in place of) Greek Cypriots, I would not put that mosaic. I am sure the Helen culture in the Cyprus island has more artistic mosaics than this one. If they regard that especially that mosaic represent their History better, then that is their business, of course.

(with edit summary: "If Greek Cypriots regard that especially that mosaic represent their History better, then that is their business, of course").Alexyflemming (talk) 14:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban

Giver their record and their apparent unrepentance, I suggest that Alexyflemming is banned indefinitely from editing any page remotely concerned with the island of Cyprus. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 15:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

A counter proposal would be to serve you with the same type of topic ban for the same reasons. The Banner talk 17:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If you have any specific examples against this editor, please provide them in diffs, but I don't think you have followed the IP editor's contributions carefully. He is a neutral editor who has come to my talk to correct the opposing to Alexyflemming POV of other editors on the article of EOKAB. He has, in consensus with other editors, corrected the disruption of the Alexyflemming SPA many times. He has also contributed greatly to Cypriot municipal onomatology and he has done a lot of work in that field. He is an expert and Misplaced Pages needs editors like him/her. He needs congratulations not a topic ban. Δρ.Κ.  18:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Very Obsessive Editor User:Dr.K. and His Continuous POV edits

I know User:Dr.K. since 2010. He is older than me in WP. Though that I observed various his misbehaviours in various ways. He continuously struggled to block me. I think the reason is my neutral and objective stance on Cyprus dispute and related articles. As far as I see, I am not the only Wiki user who faces this behavior from him. He forgets very important and inevitable rules of Misplaced Pages. I will give this rules in order in the following and then I will list my related proofs.
1. Wiki users must be polite towards each other in discussions and talks irrespective of our thoughts and ideas.
User:Dr.K. frequently omits this simple rule, and frequently uses impolite language whenever he sees a Wiki user that thinks opposite to him.
User:Dr.K. said "silly" to me! Even though this, I protected my common sense, and did not use any offensive language towards him (Language reflects people!). Later, he apologized from me. But, then again he used "silly" towards my thoughts and idea in my posts. I again protected my common sense.
2. Dr.K. sees me as an "enemy" and acts very offensively:
Dr.K. tried to block me for the first time in 2014 January and his baseless claims were all rejected.
Dr.K. tried to block me infinitely many times. I forgotten its number! (The content of the diff of this link is below; see the obsession.)

3. In their last effort, Dr.K. and (some Wiki users with no Wiki username but only IPs) tried to block me with the pretext of "violation of 3RR". Although they are the violators of 3RR, I was blocked! During my blocking period, they continued to insult with every word they think. They even said "paid supporter" to me!
4. Dr.K. does not like me since I reveal his distortions to the history:
a. (09.02.2014) "hiding the name of the principal initiator of that war";
Dr.Κ.: "The term "1974 Cyprus War" is misleading because it hides the name of the principal initiator of that war, which is Turkey"

b. (03.03.2014) island nation of Cyprus;
Dr.Κ.: "Historically, the island and the island nation of Cyprus have been considered to be the same."

c. (03.11.2014) "forcible eviction".
Dr.Κ.: ""Northern Cyprus" ....is the result of forcible population evictions".

Alexyflemming: The disproofs:

Greek Cypriots in Rizokarpaso chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Greek Cypriots in Agios Andronikos chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Greek Cypriots in Agia Triada chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Maronites in Asomatos chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Maronites in Karpasia chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Maronites in Kormakitis chose to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Turkish Cypriots in Lemmossol chose to stay in southern Cyprus in 1975, and now living in Cyprus in 2014. All the rest chose voluntarily to switch the sides in 1975 according to "Voluntary Population Exchange Agreement on 02.08.1975" between Turkish and Greek Cypriots (Third Vienna Agreement) under the auspices of United Nations. i.e. if all of the Greek Cypriots in Kyrenia had chosen to stay in northern Cyprus in 1975, and all of them now would be living in Northern Cyprus in 2014. Since this is so, the Greek Cypriots (who want to return Northern Cyprus) were/are/will be always rejected wherever they go: USA Federal Court (09.10.2014): "..Greek Cypriots CANNOT CLAIM here that the government in control of Northern Cyprus gave their homes to Turkish Cypriots...." The news of the decision of the Court: (13.10.2014): http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/13/72392.htm The website of the case of the Court: http://dockets.justia.com/docket/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2009cv01967/139002 The decision of the Court.....: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2009cv01967/139002/53 NOTE: Previously, The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) rejected Greek Cypriots' request to return Northern Cyprus. European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) (27.05.2010): (Tasos Asproftas: and Marianna Petrakidou ): “The houses which the Greek Cypriots left in North Cyprus are not their homes any more because they have lived almost for all their lives in another place and they have no concrete and persisting links with the houses they claimed. Therefore Greek Cypriots have no right to return to the North.” Sources: http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/Pages/search.aspx#{"fulltext":,"documentcollectionid2":,"itemid":} http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/Pages/search.aspx#{"fulltext":,"documentcollectionid2":,"itemid":}

• This is yet another demonstration of the cluelessness and personal attacks toward me, of this editor. He is brought at ANI by another editor, his disruption is demonstrated from the discussion above this section by two other editors, yet he adds another of his useless walls of text, concentrating on me and personally attacking me, using nonsense arguments. This disruption has obviously got to stop. Δρ.Κ.  18:02, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I have blocked the user for long-term disruption. Please see user talk page for more info. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• And Alexyflemming has now posted a 14.3 K "unblock request" that isn't an unblock request, since it doesn't address the reasons for the block, but a further wall of text promoting their POV views. Thomas.W 21:02, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• First of his unblock reasons: A. Diannaa, yes, it is "Cyprus", not "Cypress", referring to a typo by Dianna, which she had already corrected before his unblock request. Δρ.Κ.  21:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Alexyflemming keeps a propaganda blog on Disqus. Several of his edits on Misplaced Pages are items on his blog. For instance the SBA EEZ claims and the US court decision, which he spammed and edit-warred on multiple articles. It seems he tries to import his blog propaganda on Misplaced Pages. Δρ.Κ.  23:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

David Beals

Short background: long term troll/vandal, adds pictures of random ceiling fans to articles, or tries to link to youtube videos of fans, sometimes compares people who remove the pics to Adolf Hitler, or misspells their names (perhaps changing a syllable to profanity).

See the SPI page and the archives for how much time this guy wastes.

At the latest SPI, User:McDoobAU93 raised the idea of contacting Beals's ISP about his vandalism. He's using a dynamic IP, but they're all from Philadelphia, and I'm guessing we've got enough socks to CU to figure out which service(s) he's using. I'm not quite aware as to how we'd do that, but I'd assume someone here would. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the traceroute and geolocate info for known IP addresses, he's on AT&T, between Kutztown and Philadelphia. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll stop now, you don't have to report. 166.171.57.248 (talk) 04:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You've given us no reason to believe you, and plenty not to. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support Community Ban - Enough is enough, and this is way overdue. I also support real world remedial action including contacting authorities as suggested. Jusdafax 05:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support action per Ian.thomson. Enough is enough. Blackmane (talk) 05:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and inclusion at Misplaced Pages:Long-term_abuse as well. What a sad waste of time. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and whatever other actions we can take - I'm tired of removing his f*cking ceiling fan videos. Thomas.W 11:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• I support contacting his ISP. To the people supporting a community ban: formal community bans of notorious long-term vandals aren't needed. A situation where somebody is indefinitely blocked and no admin would unblock is a de facto ban, compare WP:BLOCKBANDIFF. Not sure about creating a long-term abuse page for him. Building monuments to trolls should only be done when absolutely necessary. They like it. Bishonen | talk 13:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC).
• Support community ban, if only to make it official and reduce the scope for any further chicanery so that new socks can be shot on sight. I'm agnostic about reporting to his ISP; usually my experience offwiki has been that ISPs don't actually give a hoot if the action being taken by their user isn't illegal. As irritating as this individual is, I don't think that it's at the point where we'd get law enforcement involved. Lankiveil 13:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC).
• (edit conflict) Support community ban, listing at LTA, and contacting his ISP, per all of the above. The situation is a de facto ban as Bishonen described, but it's still a block, and the hope with blocks is that the user will reform and come back as a good editor, even with indefs via the WP:STANDARDOFFER. There's every reason to expect that this user will never reform, so our strongest sanction (formally kicking them out) is warranted even if it is a formality at this point. Ivanvector (talk) 13:28, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban - Makes sense, if this is truly the extent of his "contributions". Sergecross73 msg me 13:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban - A complete time suck for other editors. --NeilN 14:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban and LTA, and perhaps contacting the ISP. Origamite 14:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and attempt ISP contact (though it'll probably end up buried by them nonetheless). More making it official than anything, they've already got a de facto ban and only the most naive of souls would dare to give them any editing responsibility. Nate • (chatter) 15:15, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - enough is enough. Noteswork (talk) 15:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban and contacting his ISP, I have enough vandalism to clear up without having to remove ceiling fans. Amortias (T)(C) 18:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support AT&T must receive a LTA report and a site-wide autoblock should be issued. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support community ban Contact At&t per above, this user is clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban and attempt ISP contact. Per the above. Epeefleche (talk) 20:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban & contact the ISP as as everyone's said Enough is enough!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 20:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban, ISP contact and a side order of eternal damnation! Favonian (talk) 21:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support community ban. Also try to contact the user's ISP. We should contact AT&T to see if access to Misplaced Pages pages can be denied for this user. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Support both the ban and contacting AT&T. Much as we all like ceiling fans during the summer, I think this has gone on for long enough. ansh666 00:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• I'll make you a deal After seeing this, I decided to stop adding videos and images. Just wait until I continue before contacting ISP. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Why should we? You've repeatedly shown us no kindness, nor given us any reason to trust you. Right now, you're not even giving any indication that you actually have any remorse for your actions, but are just trying to avoid trouble on your end (trouble you brought on yourself). Ian.thomson (talk) 03:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I decided to stop, because I've seen people saying about ISP. I'll wait like few month, then apologize what I did, then try to edit again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No, we don't want you here at all. You've used over 70 accounts to make clearly disruptive edits, and have made personal attacks against the people cleaning your mess. Your options are:

1) You leave, and don't edit here ever again.

2) We contact AT&T and get them to make it so you can't edit.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is totally rude what you said. After reading about what you would do, I absolutely never do any bad edits again, ever. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support community ban, no deals. ... discospinster _talk 03:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• That's rude. If you had just given me a warning about ISP and community ban, I would have stopped. Please do not support ban until you see my vandalism edits after 3:28 November 5, 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:29, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You've had dozens of accounts warned and blocked. No sane and honest person could pretend they didn't get the message to stop from that. Do you have any reason why we shouldn't contact AT&T? Ian.thomson (talk) 03:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I did get warning about getting blocked, but didn't get any about ISP. My reason for not contacting AT&T is that I noticed it, and decided to stop it. How many months do you think I should wait before apologizing and try to edit again? 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Im wondering here how many of these "Last chances" you got. You would think that after having an account blocked for socking one would get the message but you made what... dozens more accounts? You really need to open your eyes if you don't realize why people don't trust a word you say. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I know I got some, but after reading about contacting ISP, I have decided for real that I will absolutely never do vandalism edits, ever again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 03:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Some? You had over 70 accounts blocked. If AT&T can't block you from editing without completely blocking your access to the site, then good riddance. Your continued vandalism shows that you don't care about what's good for the site, so why should we care about you having access?

How is not knowing that we could contact your ISP an excuse? How is it any different than us having to block you over 70 times? You had over 70 opportunities to start over and not be a total screw up, and you chose to engage in vandalism and personal attacks with every account you made an edit with.

You do not get to come back here to apologize, your options are:

1) Leave the site alone and never edit again.

2) We contact AT&T and ask them to institute a block on your end.

Either way, you don't edit ever again. You've proven you cannot be trusted to behave maturely, honestly, or rationally. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It is different from blocking because I especially wouldn't want to get in trouble with ISP. Can you stop acting like you're an Admin? 166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

So you don't have any remorse for your actions, you just don't want to get in trouble with your ISP? How does that benefit the site? At no point have I pretended to be an admin, I'm merely echoing the clear support above for the community ban. You are not welcome here. If we had some indication that you regretted your childish behavior, I'm guessing more people might consider letting you voluntarily leaving the site without us getting AT&T to block the site on your end. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(EC) Get the hint and clear off, In the nicest way possible - No one wants you here, You've been given chance after chance and now it's becoming a joke, Someone here will contact your ISP so if I were you I would simply go away & find another hobby!. –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

About me saying about you acting like an admin is that you said that I'm not welcome ever again. You can't decide that, when you're not an admin. It's not fair, good edits are better than no edits. And I would like to apologize for what I did, and will absolutely never do it again. 166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:16, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't decide that: everyone else did. Look above, at all the posts saying support community ban and support site ban. Notice that no one is defending you. Look at the 70+ accounts you've created that have been blocked. You are not welcome here. You've shown you utterly lack either the ethical or intellectual capacity to make good edits, and so no edits are better. You are not welcome here, and we do not want you here. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I have decided to stop editing. Maybe in the future, I might start a fresh new account, that no one will recognize. And I'll try to keep it fresh, thinking about how we talked in ISP.166.170.34.116 (talk) 04:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You and a ceiling fan have 1 thing in common - You both are going around in circles here!, No worries you create an account - We'll recognize you - We'll contact your ISP ... Get the hint. –Davey2010 • (talk) 04:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Quite frankly, regardless of what you say now, someone should still contact your ISP. People have been firefighting to keep your crap from WP. From now, it's a preemptive strike to stop any future vandalism. Once you're dealt with from the ISP end, you won't be able to come back as an IP or account to cause any more trouble.Blackmane (talk) 04:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

On fresh new account, I won't post random videos on random articles. 166.170.33.80 (talk) 05:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That's nice but someone is still going to contact your ISP. Nothing like "the sixth biggest website on the internet need to stop a guy who won't stop posting videos of ceiling fans" to make everyone around feel foolish. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Nice, and irrelevant. As it stands, there is a very solid consensus to indefinitely community ban you. That means you as a person are banned, regardless of your account. That also means that from whenever this discussion is closed till, pretty much forever, any editor can (and will) revert your edits regardless of their quality without worrying about invoking 3rr. You wore out your welcome a long time ago and now not only is the door closed to you, it's locked and barred shut. Blackmane (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

There's definitely universal consensus for a community ban (whether one thinks there's already a de facto ban or if one thinks we need a de jure ban), and there's plenty of support and no real opposition to contacting AT&T about Beals. I think we've got enough to seal the deal here. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• If anybody notices any new accounts, it would be appreciated if someone could report them to m:SRG or #wikimedia-stewards as this is a cross-wiki vandal. If you report it at SPI, someone will get to it eventually, but this helps the disruption to be minimized quickly. --Rschen7754 04:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret

This user has more or less become a single purpose account. There editing has become not very produce such as:

• The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless.
• And we all
• They have also been involved in a fair bit of WP:CANVASSING. For example he recently put these notes on a couple of users talk pages requesting their participation and and others. They earlier requested the support of one of these users after having made some controversial changes

Does this rise to the level of a temporary topic ban? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? Cherry-picked quotes? And a complaint about canvassing relating to a case where you were remanded for inappropriate notification? This seems more like a play to remove editors that you disagree with, than a true complaint, sorry. --Kim D. Petersen 16:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

First of all, let me mention that he requested mere participation not support (except in the last one where he added his own opinion). Doc James, you've been warned for 3RR along with Ferret, I believe this is just not enough for a TBAN. Doc, you're in it too. I believe you all should quit this battleground mentality. A self-imposed TBAN will go a long way. Just my two cents. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 18:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm not sure that what is described here is canvassing. AlbinoFerret neutrally notified seven different editors, each of whom had previously edited the page or engaged in Talk discussions and had expressed different views, of an RFC occurring on the page: the two above plus This appears to be allowed according to WP:CANVASSING. I don't understand the purpose of this report, especially given that Doc James has already engaged in edit-warring with AlbinoFerret on this article. Ca2james (talk) 20:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In the very beginning AlbinoFerret only notified the two editors who have the same POV as he does. After editors commented AlbinoFerret was canvassing then AlbinoFerret notified the other editors. Another editor stated "Now that I read the discussion, it looks like inappropriate canvassing." The editor was referring to this this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

There was a 10 hour difference between when the first two editors were notified and the other five were notified. Does that qualify as canvassing? I wouldn't think so but perhaps I'm wrong. If the post on the village pump is considered canvassing (is it? I don't know), then bringing it up now, a week later, seems a little late. Ca2james (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussions were long that day and I needed some sleep, there is no time limit on when editors need to be notified by, I got up and notified others. But even if I only notified the two editors you point out, they are active on the article and had both edited the article. Informing them of the RFC, and all I did was ask them to look at the RFC, is allowed. AlbinoFerret (talk)

I will address all these false accusations.

• The so called canvasing was going back a week or so in history and notifying every editor of the article that wasnt an IP of a rfc. Including ones I knew would probably disagree with my position like Yobol.
• #85 is out of sequence and happened the night before the rfc was made, all I ws doing was asking another editor to look at the edits I had done to see if a NPOV tag/banner she had placed could be removed. This distorting of the timeline to suggest something wrong is intentional. It has been pointed out the Doc James before. As such it, in my opinion the retaliation is a continuation of the war Doc James was warned to stop but has not. These accusations were addressed in the report on Doc James linked to here. I was warned for edit warring, resuscitating them here is a desperate ploy.
• My opinion of the WHO (World Health Organization) is just that my opinion, and I have a right to it. The WHO is treated like some kind of God on the article. While he has me saying my opinion of the WHO on a talk page, he doesnt have diff's of me removing statements of the WHO from the article.
• The third was a sarcastic response to a well known edit warrior QuackGuru with a long ban list history calling the additions of another editor ridiculous.

This is just retaliation for bringing a charge of being involved in an edit war on Doc James. Perhaps its time for a boomerang. AlbinoFerret (talk) 19:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I still think the two tags are unnecessary. You disagree? You restored the tag of shame to the lede without explaining what is wrong with the lede. Please explain what is wrong with the lede or remove the tag from the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That tag was placed by Kim, you removed it with an open RFC on it, that is still open. I replaced it because it is the subject of an open RFC. AlbinoFerret (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You haven't shown what is the issue with the lede and yet you want to keep it in the lede? QuackGuru (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It would be wiser to keep content related stuff to the article talk page. --Kim D. Petersen 21:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes it appears that a few editors want to exclude the position of the World Health Organization and a review article published in Circulation (journal), one of medicines most respected journals. They instead wish to replace these with the position of a single author review published in a 1 year old journal with an impact factor of zero. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for showing your true motivation, a conflict over content, and silencing those that disagree with you. The boomerang should hit hard AlbinoFerret (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I am sure it will. My motivation is to accurately reflect the best available sources. Personal attacks are unfortunately becoming more common Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you proved personal attacks are becoming common by coming here. AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry Doc, but do you really think that fighting over content issues is appropriate for AN/I? Noone - None - Zip - Nada persons want to "exclude the position of the World Health Organization". The issue over a particular conference report from the WHO is significantly more complex than should be dragged out here, and certaintly not by misrepresenting peoples views. --Kim D. Petersen 23:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

While we have this comment The WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless, which sounds like a desire to exclude the WHOs position IMO. If some come to the discussion with this perspective it makes it difficult to edit health related content. And than we have the personal insults. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep, that sarcastic comment, at a person who made a negative comment on another editors edits using the same word. Who has been pointed out a few times for disruptive editing of the article #1 #2. Where can we find the entry on this page from you for QuackGuru who shares your point of view? Nobody has tried to remove the WHO from the article. There is a report they commissioned, that is used 36 times, its use needs to be scaled back, but its used more and more.AlbinoFerret (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's note one thing. Doc, you've accused him of being an SPA, which I believe he is not. But the fact that he's made 786 (take away or give a few, I used Ctrl+F on his contribs) edits to E-cigarette related stuff is disturbing. And unless, he's been factually incorrect, has failed to maintain a NPOV or has some kind of a COI, there's really no problem if this is a SPA. Doc, you're certainly involved and the fact that you've not taken any actions is an excellent thing (in fact, if you felt you've been wronged and you came to ANI for that, it was a perfectly fine decision). Note to all: Please refrain from making personal attacks. It can be grounds for harassment. It's also time to quit all of your battleground mentality. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Rogue Admin

I am here to dispute a decision made by an admin who proposed a topic ban for me here and imposed it only just 3 days and 0 input from uninvolved editors. The only input given was by editors who have a content dispute regarding Boris Malagurski-related articles, most of which have attempted to manipulate Misplaced Pages guidelines to remove me from editing and discussing the topic matter which interests me. After numerous sockpupped investigations that attempted to prove I was Boris Malagurski or working for him (and in the end it was concluded that I wasn't, of course), now, one administrator, Ricky81682 has banned me from editing Malagurski-related articles, with the support of a few editors who have been out to get rid of me for quite some time now, all because I'm not anti-Malagurski like them and have followed Misplaced Pages guidelines in regards to editing and sourcing. I would like a second opinion from uninvolved editors and request a lift of the ban imposed on me, as it had immediately been used by one user who was swift to support the ban, Pincrete to quickly shape the Boris Malagurski, The Weight of Chains and Kosovo: Can You Imagine? articles (all Malagurski-related) in a way that pleases him (all on issues where I disputed his POV). They were all waiting for me to be banned, and now they can do what they like, as I was the only neutral editor pressing for neutrality. --UrbanVillager (talk) 17:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Without any comments on the legitimacy of the claims for or against UrbanVillager, am I the only one uncomfortable about imposing a community topic ban based on the input of three editors? Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• All it takes is one admin to indeff someone, but to answer your question: no, you are not the only person who thinks this not the best way to run an online community. I don't think any bans should be enacted by just one or three people, but that's how it works around here and good luck trying to change anything. I.e., admins want it this way, and they will close ranks to protect their near absolute powers. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed. The 'process' (three ANI comments then a topic ban) doesn't seem fair or reasonable. AnonNep (talk) 17:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Absolutely inappropriate for an WP:INVOLVED admin (per ) to be imposing community sanctions like this. Support immediate reversal of ban, but no prejudice against uninvolved admins reviewing the discussion. Ivanvector (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Without regard one way or the other on the merits of the case, it should be reopened to seek additional input. Three people is far too few to determine a consensus in matters such as this. Otherwise, no opinion with regards to the merits of the case, or the admin who closed the initial discussion. Just reopen the discussion, and wait for a more broad consensus to develop. --Jayron32 17:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• The topic ban chould be vacated and the discussion reopened. An admin that one month supports] a topic ban and then a month later closes a discussion and establishes a topic ban against that user is patently wrong. GB fan 17:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• What Jayron32 said. Processes have to be open, fair and transparent. Best solution is revert the close (and findings) and reopening this to let it run to a more natural conclusion. Dennis - 2¢ 17:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: since there has been an accusation of anti-Yugoslav bias in the previous discussions, are these articles considered to fall under the discretionary sanctions for articles relating to the Balkans? Ivanvector (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

In my view, yes, so I added the warning to The Weight of Chains at least. If people think so, it should be added to the filmmaker (the breakup is his topic) and to his films on the subject. The talk pages reflect users going on about the general issue of the breakup and the region. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Per Jayron32, this closure should be reverted if the admin already participated in support of the ban (which will probably result in resumption of discussion where it was left or reclosed by some one uninvolved). Appropriate warnings should be given too. Although the consensus may support the ban anyway; it does, however, need re-evaluation.--lTopGunl (talk) 18:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Reverted I reverted the closure. Please discuss the merits of a topic ban itself above. Based on This and this, it is clear that Ricky81682 is heavily involved in editing disputes with UrbanVillager and should not ever take administrative actions regarding him.--v/r - TP 18:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Aw, now you've done it. We can't hold one of our own to any sort of standards if we want to close ranks and cling to our near-absolute power as described above. I mean, the godlike feeling of power when closing a discussion or protecting a page, you can't endanger that! Beeblebrox (talk) 19:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It took me a second to realize that was sarcastic. Given the level of dialog on this page it did not seem unrealistic enough to immediately appear sarcastic. Chillum 19:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I lifted some of it word for word from the third comment in this very thread. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

What's nearer to absolute power? Enacting sanctions based on that near-absolute power, or reverting the near-absolute power itself? That like, over 9000 absolute power!--v/r - TP 19:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know much about if he should have been topic banned or nor, but as others have said the admin was clearly involved. That said, it was not bad enough to request a desysop. Still I wish there was a way that the community could censure admins that abuse their tools (a kind of formal statement of disapproval). If you look at any person here, you can look at their blocklog and see every time they were blocked forever. And yet if there is an admin abusing their tools today, by next year people probably wont even remember it occurred (or the same people might not be involved). I guess you can go searching through the ANI archive, but still that doesn't seem quite enough. --Obsidi (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • In this case, I don't know the admin (never even HEARD the name Ricky81682 before today), so I really don't know if it is a singular slip of judgement, or an ongoing issue. I will assume a singular slip up until shown evidence to the contrary, via WP:AGF, and the fact that if it was a regular thing, I would have heard by now. We all make mistakes and such, I won't judge. To answer your question: If it were an ongoing issue, gather up the diffs and go to WP:AN is a good place to start. All admin are subject to review by our peers (meaning ALL editors, not just other admin). An RFC/U can be done if that doesn't produce results in a reasonable period of time. As Beebs sarcasm indicated, as a group, admin don't all cover each other's butts, like the cop's "thin blue line". Eventually, Arb will hear a case, but they need to see that it was handled down here in the regular community and failed before they get involved. Two are there now, although one obviously doesn't belong there, and the 2nd one probably doesn't. Dennis - 2¢ 00:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • At this moment in Misplaced Pages's lifecycle, the efficacy of the RFC/U is disputed; as ANI is not the forum to address that, I'll leave it at that. Editors wishing me to explain further are, as always, welcome to post on my talk page. NE Ent 00:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • That's a bad idea. Such documentation would be used as ammo for every disgruntled user who was sanctioned by an admin for violating community standards. If an admin messes infrequently such that there's not a community memory of it it's best to just let it go. Egregious violations of expected behavior will be called out, often by other admins. NE Ent 00:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • That's probably a better way to put it. I didn't mean keep a running tab, although it might have looked that way. But yes, we admin really do try to police our own. Dennis - 2¢ 00:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• My apologies. My first involvement was at this ANI by UrbanVillager where UrbanVillager had the same issues as discussed above. As stated before, UrbanVillager is a SPA who's entire focus seems to be promoting the work of a single Serbain-Canadian filmmaker's theory on the breakup of Yugoslavia (including starting articles that later add to the promotion). While not focusing on a single article, editing about a particular filmmaker, only their documentaries and only the people interviewed in the documentary over the course of four years are pretty close to an SPA to me. In my view, this also relates to the ARBCOM sanctions on Eastern European articles (the talk pages of the editors reflect IP addresses complaining about that angle). At the time, I would consider a topic ban but I attempted to assist instead (obviously an extraordinarily poor idea) and following the attacks at Talk:The Weight of Chains and now specious sockpuppetry reports against all other users, I instead opened it up for suggestion again. Given that I opened the discussion, it was in poor taste to close it myself and I'll leave it others to comment. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:40, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  As long as understand the reason for the concern, and understand how to avoid it in the future, I don't see a need to flog you at this time. Dennis - 2¢ 00:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm coming up on nine years as an admin (and it's a good sign I'm not actually well known). It comes with the territory. I'm sure I'll be flogged again for something else soon enough. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I get flogged regularly, but I'm a glutton for punishment, it would seem. Dennis - 2¢ 01:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

As an admin, if you're liked by everyone, you're not doing your job right. Blackmane (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't get this All SPAs are bad concept. Come on, this is not some satanic cult promoting their ancient religion of Sabbatic craft. It's simply a user who is interested in editing a specific topic. Unless the user displays really poor knowledge of policies, has COI or fails to maintain NPOV, he shouldn't be classified as a bad SPA. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 13:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:HOUND & WP:DE by IP range

WP:DE behavior in reverting edits while tagging as vandalism, and WP:HOUND activity specifically targeting my edits. Behavior is exampled in multiple similar IP addresses:

• 85.255.232.198 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.213 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.214 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.216 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.232.217 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.233.108 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.234.33 (talk · contribs)
• 85.255.235.79 (talk · contribs)

The IP user(s) continue to revert edits and tagging original edits as possible vandalism. User(s) are likely experienced WP editors based upon these talk page comments: (responding to WP:HOUND allegations), (knowledge of WP guidelines re: copyright). With one exception, IP user(s) are not targeting edits of users other than mine.

IP user(s) claim edits being reverted are "potential vandalism"; however, reversions have not been followed by warnings on my talk page or WP:ANI (per guidelines in WP:R Van), although WP:DE/WP:HOUND behavior continues despite welcome messages & warnings on IP users' talk pages. AldezD (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

AldezD continues to edit without leaving an edit summary (contrary to WP:FIES which points out that such edits are likely to be reverted as there are fewer reasons to assume good faith). Not leaving an edit summary is a frequent symptom of vandalism and such edits can be reverted as such. AldezD is also liar because has been requested twice on his talk page to leave an edit summary when he edits so that others have some sort of clue as to what he has changed (here and here both deleted without comment - often the sign of a problem editor). AldezD complains that discussion is not left on his talk page, but it is he that has made it clear that he is not going to discuss anything by summarily deleting any attempt at doing so. Yet he continues to refuse to leave a edit summaries. AldezD claims Hounding but he has not been singled out. I revert other editors who will not conform to Misplaced Pages's requirements and policies. Since he cannot know what other IP addresses my ISP decides to allocate to me, he cannot know how many other editors are not following policy that I (and several other editor's) are attempting to enforce policy.

AldezD has also not followed policy and procedure as he has failed to notify any of the above IP addresses of this ANI and it should therefore be closed on that ground alone. Leaving 'welcome' messages on talk pages for what is obviously a dynamic IP address (over which I have no control) is pointless as I will never be aware of them.

It's always interesting how the user not following the policy claims to be the aggrieved party. 85.255.233.123 (talk) 12:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Generally, before we revert an edit for not having an edit summary we read the edit in question. Don't revert if you can't be bothered to actually look at the edit to see if it's legitimate or not. "Fewer reasons to assume good faith" does not equal "no reason to assume good faith." We are here to build an encyclopedia, not a bureaucracy. --Richard Yin (talk) 15:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm tempted to delete 85.255.233.123's contribution above as s/he did not leave an edit summary for even one of the eleven posts it took. NebY (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• "AldezD is also liar"—Personal attack and futher WP:DE by IP user.

Statement of fact. AldezD claimed no comments had been left on talk page. Not true as comments left were linked. 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• "AldezD claims Hounding but he has not been singled out"—Please review IP users' edit histories; with one exception, all reversions within past few weeks are of my edits.

That would only be reviewing the edit histories of those IP addresses that you have provided. You would also need to review all those that you have not provided. Oh, but you have no idea what they are, do you? 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• IP user has clear understanding of WP guidelines, but fails to follow steps to create an account, yet continues WP:HOUND and WP:DE actions. Is the behavior of using multiple unassigned IP addresses a duck of another user account block? Can an admin WP:CHK the IPs listed above?

Now we are clutching at straws. I am under no obligation to create an account and am perfectly entitled to edit from an IP address. I have enough account names and passwords to keep track of without unnecessarily adding to them. Feel free to check the IPs. You should not find any link to any named account (though it is not impossible that the IP address has been used by some unrelated account holder). 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

AldezD (talk) 15:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And if you are threatening to delete my contribution because of a lack of edit summary then 1. Edit summaries are only mandated for article edits. Few editors leave summaries at talk pages and project pages. 2. You would also have to delete AldezD's response above because he did not leave a summary (or indeed for the original post). 85.255.233.123 (talk) 16:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I was going to ask where the restriction to article edits can be found in the recommendation for the use of edit summaries, because I can't find it at WP:FIES which was the link which the IP provided earlier. I notice, however, that the IP has now been blocked, so won't be able to reply until the block expires. David Biddulph (talk) 17:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes I can reply. You didn't read WP:FIES very well. WP:FIES states "It is considered good practice to provide a summary for every edit ...". Edit implies editing an article. This for instance, is not an edit but a post to discussion, therefore no summary required. Or maybe it's just too ambiguous. 86.153.28.37 (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Firstly you are reminded that to use a different IP address to evade a block is sockpuppetry, and secondly I see no justification whatsoever for your interpretation. --David Biddulph (talk) 18:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I have not used a different IP address 'to evade a block'. I used a different IP address because my ISP forces it upon me. In fact, until I noticed it in the above, I didn't even know that the last IP address had been blocked. You need to notify me somewhere where I will see the block (i.e. At the next allocated IP address). Looking at the vast numbers of editors who do not leave edit summaries at talk pages, it would seem that my interpretation in more readily accepted than yours. This is especially the case when the ability to leave an edit summary is not always offered (e.g. When creating a new discussion on a talk page etc. etc.) 85.255.232.78 (talk) 18:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked the latest IP, Special:Contributions/85.255.233.123, for harassment and trolling as displayed here in this thread. Needless to say, AldezD: you of course should in fact make it a habit to use edit summaries in the future. Please do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(Uninvolved observation) While not wanting to comment on the specific content of this ANI, I would like to make these observations.

Reviewing edits that are made to articles where an edit summary has not been left takes unnecessary time (especially when Misplaced Pages is having one of its many off moments and hangs while you are waiting for anything to happen - a frequent occurence).

Some of these edits are made in good faith but, in my experience, the majority are usually non-constructive in one way or another.

The solution to this matter is very simple. Always leave an edit summary when you make an alteration to an article. This is nothing more than a courtesy to other editors so that they can get an idea of what you have changed and make a decision as to whether it is worth reviewing (and if the edit summary is apposite, it is usually not worth reviewing). Further: it is not in any way time consuming to add such a summary.

Nearly all good faith editors seem to have no problem with leaving summaries, so I am curious as to what objection the OP has to doing so (If that is indeed what this is all about). –LiveRail < Talk > 17:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The objection wasn't to the process of leaving an edit summary, it was to the hounding behavior by the IP user. I have been (mostly) faithful in leaving an edit summary since the behavior by the IP users started, but sometimes click save before entering a summary. I plan to pace myself a bit slower to ensure an edit summary is left for future edits. AldezD (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional edits to this discussion by same user with another similar IP (85.255.232.78 (talk · contribs)), in an attempt to WP:BE the block on 85.255.233.123 (talk · contribs). This user is providing no constructive contribution and instead continues WP:DE/trolling. Can a range block be applied? The user's behavior and comments here show a lack willingness to edit constructively and still show a pattern of WP:DE/trolling. AldezD (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Further examples of the IP's WP:DE, apart from the blatant socking to evade the block, can be seen at User talk:Wtshymanski where the IP believes that he/she understands the rules on copyright violation better than Moonriddengirl (laughably suggesting that MRG "does not understand the complexities of the copyright situation"), and the IP in its various incarnations has been edit-warring on the topic. Nor surprising, Misplaced Pages:Merging agrees with the advice of Moonriddengirl. - David Biddulph (talk) 19:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

IBAN Violation between User:The Rambling Man against User:Medeis

There's currently an indefinite IBAN between myself and User:The Rambling Man at my repeated request since December 2013, instituted between him, myself and another user with community consensus in Jan 2014.

Now TRM has challenged me directly to answer him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:In_the_news/Candidates&diff=632457262&oldid=632457154 I'd like an admin to step in and put an end to this repeated IBAN violation on the part of TRM. I understand TRM is a sysop and an admin, which is bad enough. How do I go about putting and end to his abuse? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• Pings are generally not considered sufficient to meet the threshold of notifying someone per the instructions. I've notified them for you.--v/r - TP 20:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Also, pings don't work unless you sign the post at the same time you ping them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• It's awkward when two ITN regulars have an interaction ban. Have you two usually been avoiding commenting altogether on nominations made by the other? I don't take this particular comment as "directed" at you; TRM appears to be saying it isn't worth posting until there is a conviction; this isn't directly challenging you to respond. If the agreement is to avoid each others' nominations, then this is breaking that agreement; if the agreement is just to not address each other personally, or poke each other with sticks, then I don't think that's what happened here. If the agreement is unclear, then, crap, I guess the community has to waste time fine tuning the wording of an interaction ban because you two can't stand each other. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
• Although I'd be the first to say that I'm hardly a neutral admin when it comes to TRM, I'd agree with Floquenbeam that the diff from today is a series of rhetorical questions, not a direct request or challenge for Medeis to answer. All the earlier stuff is, well, much earlier, and no-one's going to block now for violations in May 2014 (even if violations occurred). Bencherlite 20:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you telling me, Bencherlite, that if I "rhetorically" answer TRM here I won't be blocked? Please be explicit. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The place to discuss ITN candidates is WP:ITNC, as you know, not here. There is no such thing as "rhetorically" answering someone's questions. Bencherlite 21:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not about to directly notify any user I have an IBAN with of anything, the last time I did so due to a routine matter of clean-up I was warned I would immediately be blocked the next time I deleted a duplicate ITN nomination. Given these users have apparently been indeed been pinged to this page, I am not sure what else needs be done. And if rhetorical attacks including the pronoun "you" addressing me directly are fine, then will the commenting admin simply remove the IBAN? It's one or the other, no? This is not a new phenomenon. I have had multiple "thank" edits from TRM, have been attacked in may and october, as well as today, personally. Is this whole IBAN just a joke? Should I ignore it, and do as I like, as he does? μηδείς (talk) 21:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

"Now you're talking" is a common English expression (in British English, at least - I don't know what primary version of English you use, Medeis) and it doesn't actually refer to you, Medeis - it's an example of the generic you. If I may translate the last part of TRM's comment: "If they were to be found guilty of mass murder, then that would be a more appropriate story for ITN." That's all. Bencherlite 21:40, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• This seems to be an adequate response to something at ITN: it questions the rationale for inclusion, nothing more. There is nothing personal in the comment. – SchroCat (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• When I raised the subject of the interaction ban violation on ITN in February, you said "There's basically nothing to address here. I am not interested in stopping the other editor from acting on or voting on ITN threads with which I have been involved, and I don't see any reason for any restriction on my addressing such matters objectively without regard to the other editor. On occasion we disagree on the issue at hand. Neither of us has to address the other to do so. Frankly, I am curious why this matter has even come up." You can't have it both ways. Stephen 22:01, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Stephen, I said I was not interested in having TRM banned from making objective commenst without regard to me made about ITN nominatins, yes or no? I never said I was happy to have personal comments made against me, yes or no? I didn't think so. μηδείς (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

"I am not interested in stopping the other editor from acting on or voting on ITN threads with which I have been involved." The comment was directed at the nomination, not you. Stephen 23:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, Medeis asked me about this matter too and I suggested she should take it to AN if she wished something to be done; I told her that I would not unilaterally block in a matter that I'm not familiar enough with. I agree that the "you" here is very much a generic you; if The Rambling Man had been dancing around the edges of the iBan that would have been something, but I don't see that here. I am not aware of any other possible ITN iBan violations, but I am hardly a regular there. I don't think Bishonen has been pinged: ping. It seems to me, however, that if this is the only possible iBan violation, and again, I don't think this was one, that Bishonen's word to the wise was received properly. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'll simply take it that the IBAN is nullified. Would I be wrong to do so? μηδείς (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Three or four editors here seem to disagree with you, yes. Drmies (talk) 22:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I would expect that a community sanctioned IBAN would only be rendered void with community consensus. Blackmane (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Please comment explicitly and clearly. Three to four admins seem to agree that TRM can say what he like, or you were entirely unserious when you said in the quoted material above that you would block TRM immediately if he continued his attacks on me? Do you seriously want me to quote it? μηδείς (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Three or four admins said that they do not see a violation in TRM's comments. No one says he can say what he likes. And I believe you are confusing me with Bishonen (I find that flattering, but still)--whose comments date back a half a year. Drmies (talk) 23:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

No admin can unilaterally overturn a community sanctioned ban. Even if 4 admins agree that the ban should be rescinded, they would still have to put it up for community consensus. If the community was against the overturning then that is what will happen. If you preemptively presumed that the IBAN was nullified, without this consensus, and violated it, then you would be blocked. As it stands, so far, no one has agreed that TRM has violated the terms of the IBAN, including myself upon reading his comment. "Now you're talking" is a common colloquial English phrase that means "there are grounds for discussion". It is an undirected comment using the subjectless "you". Blackmane (talk) 00:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

In September, there were 19 ITN/C threads where TRM and Medeis both posted a comment. This includes 4 times that Medeis commented on a thread that TRM initiated, i.e. the reverse of the scenario mentioned above where TRM comments on a thread Medeis started. In two of those four cases, Medeis included questions as part of his response, i.e. a similar behavior to the kind of questions that Medeis has chosen to object to here. Given that record, I would have to say that either the behavior by both TRM and Medeis is okay, or they are both in the wrong. Personally, I'd lean toward it not being a big deal for them to comment on the same thread, as long as the comments are focused on ITN issues and not specifically directed at each other. That said, if either party really feels strongly that commenting on the same thread or on posts initiated by the other party should be prohibited, then I suppose the community should consider extending the IBAN to cover those cases. Dragons flight (talk) 00:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Hasn't that been customarily been a bit of a grey area? If they're discussing content in the same thread but not directly replying to each other. What happens if either reply to another editor who is commenting on something one of them said? Does that rise to an IBAN violation as it's technically commenting on the editor they have an IBAN with indirectly? This is a bit grey. Blackmane (talk) 04:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Medeis is incorrect—is there a problem with English? The diff in the OP which allegedly shows that "TRM has challenged me directly to answer him here" shows nothing of the sort. That has been explained above, and it appears the explanations have been rejected. The diff shows the very sensible and extremely standard point of view, commonly expressed at Misplaced Pages, that it is not desirable to amplify the arrest of a specific person who is suspected of involvement in the disappearance of 43 college students—Misplaced Pages should wait until someone has been found guilty of mass murder. Johnuniq (talk) 04:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

2 admins fighting each other

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Urgent help or intervention is needed here. Two admins, User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise and User:TParis, are fighting each other and it's about to get heated up. I have never seen admins argue with each other before. I guess admins are not perfect afterall. 208.54.38.223 (talk) 22:16, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of talk page comment portion without notification

In this diff, User:Alexbrn deleted a portion of my talk page comment, ostensibly to remove a link which he considered to be a copyright violation, without any kind of notification to me or anyone else. WP:TALK#Others' comments says, "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it.... Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but.... If you make anything more than minor changes it is good practice to leave a short explanatory note such as "". Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: .... Removing prohibited material such as ... violations of copyright."

Because there was no explanatory note or any other notification, and because the courtesy link is needed to help resolve a difficult content dispute, and because we have no way to know whether the link in question is a copyright violation or a legitimate e.g. preprint or licensed author copy, I consider this to be a WP:TALK violation by a user with whom I was recently in a heated dispute. Therefore this seems to me to be a clear case of WP:HOUNDING harassment, and so I ask for an administrator to please tell Alexbrn to refrain from such harassment, or at the very least leave a clear notification whenever he might delete others' talk page comments in the future. Thank you. EllenCT (talk) 23:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Though there was apparently no notification that the comment was modified, the link does indeed look like copyright violation. {{Redacted}} can be used to show that an comment has been modified, and there probably should have been some kind of notification or alert. But I don't think removing a link to an apparent copyright violation is actionable. Wiley-Blackwell charges $6 for temporary access to this content, and I doubt they would let random websites host it for free. Editors interested in academic journals can get free access to some of them through The Misplaced Pages Library. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

How does a copyright violation look any different from a licensed author's copy or preprint? I always hand edit my publication contracts to retain a perpetual, worldwide, transferable right to distribute anything I publish commercially, and most if not all of my colleagues do too. The assumption that a link to external content is any sort of copyright violation without concrete evidence is mere paranoia. But more importantly, the lack of a notification of any sort is most certainly contrary to WP:TALK and the fact it was done by someone with whom I was in a heated dispute a month ago is infuriating. EllenCT (talk) 02:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is commercial content not available under an open license. I routinely remove such links from WP as they violate policy ("Copyright infringing material should also not be linked to") and have legal implications. Apologies for not notifying EllenCT however this change made no substantive alteration to her comment. If a user thinks it's okay to link to copyright infringements from WP because they hand-modify their contracts, and that we can assume something's okay unless there is "concrete evidence" otherwise, then I would suggest we've got a problem here.

Add: I see Ellen has now put the infringing link back. Someone should look at this. Alexbrn 03:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I consider it a substantive alteration, as I wrote above. Courtesy links to sources are included when they are available, with the assumption that they are not copyright violations when they are available, just as we make them available to editors at WP:RX several times a day on fair use assumptions. The deletion silently denied the aritcle's editors who have the same fair use right to view the original source the opportunity to read what it says, disrupting their ability to make informed decisions about how best to improve the encyclopedia. I consider the refusal to take responsibility for this willful and silent disruption to be a serious problem indeed. EllenCT (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

IANAL so I'm not going to debate the law. I will however quote you our policy: "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States ...". It is possible (but unlikely) there is a negotiated permission between tobonline.com and Wiley. However the material in question is generally only available under commercial terms and carries a copyright statement. Alexbrn 04:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't think this is a case of anyone "knowingly and intentionally" doing anything. The study is linked from this article, which doesn't give any indication that they have permission to host that content. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the point is made by the policy that this is not just made somehow okay by hand-waving at "fair use". In WP policy terms, EllenCT did re-link the copyrighted content after you had commented that it was unlikely to be free. She had, therefore, grounds for reasonable suspicion of it, and chose not to heed them. The link's there now. That's a problem. Alexbrn 05:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

sure Alexbrn could have left something like (Redacted) in EllenCT's comment, but to me that would be further messing with someone else's comment which we should do as minimally as possible. He noted what he was doing in his edit note "redact copyvio link" I would note that it was EllenCT who violated our policy, WP:COPYVIO by posting the link and then reposting the link. It is a good thing Alexbrn fixed it the first time. Suggest an admin remove the link, close, and warn EllenCT not to violate COPYVIO policy again. Could take that a step further and make a 24 hour block for EllenCT to reinforce the importance of the policy. Jytdog (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

That "further messing with someone else's comment" is exactly what is recommended by the WP:TALK policy, for which Alexbrn has apologized for neglecting, and which would have made it perfectly acceptable because interested parties could still find the link in the edit history. If the courtesy link is a policy violation, then so is every courtesy link in references to author preprints, and so is every response at WP:RX. That Jytdog, with whom I have also recently been in heated disputes, has chosen to jump in to this with such specious arguments just proves my point that this is WP:HOUNDING harassment. EllenCT (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Look, I came her a few minutes ago, before I saw Jytdog's specious tag-team pile on, to say that after getting a good night's sleep I feel like life is too short for citing misdemeanors, and I no longer want to pursue this. I'm ashamed that I was goaded into further outrage and I refuse to let the hounders get me down. So please close this. EllenCT (talk) 16:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I just re-removed the link and notified EllenCT. I hope this was OK. If I'm in the wrong I'll be happy to self-revert. Ca2james (talk) 18:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

User:KorinoChikara

Long story short it appears that this user has a stalker after him/her. The user does not understand good English so I would request someone who can possibly speak their language but wanted to bring it here as I have tried to figure out what to do. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Additional info: User talk:KorinoChikara. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

User is requesting help with the issue. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Is their language Danish? I'm trying to figure it out based on their editing. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:36, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

From this older revision of their userpage, they're very likely to be of Nordic extraction. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@JEissfeldt (WMF): making you aware of this as I made a report to ANI and WMF about the same editor yesterday and you were involved. Is there any way Misplaced Pages can help? 5 albert square (talk) 03:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Hey, is this the right place? I'm really tired but I just want help. I was more or less seperated from people that I really loved and cared about. They were really nice to me, while everyone else acted really mean. I am really sorry for that behaviour, but I can't take it anymore. I can understand what you're saying, but... what is extraction? I do prefer Danish (Norwegian or Swedish is fine too), but I don't know much if people can help me here.. I am aware what I should do to actually help now, but I can't with problems like this. I do have people by my side, but I'm not seeing them... and I really don't have anyone I can say I even like around me. I've always had a really strong distrust to the ones around me right now, and they've all just been overall horrible. I do see someone I talk to usually came online, which is unusual. Maybe they can help me here, I guess. --Kanashimi Hyoketsu 03:31, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, and I know it's a horrible thing to feel hatred for, but I'm tired of it. Why do they keep isolating me? They are treating me like I'm horribly different and weird (and I was perfectly fine with my life up until 2013 or something). I have a girl online who was jealous of me for unjustifiable reasons. She resorted to being mean to me, and I personally think she's trying to destroy me. She made it quite clear. I'm tired of that kind of thing. --Kanashimi Hyoketsu 03:35, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And it may sound really stupid, but when people treat you that way forever and not 1 nice person in "real life", it's quite offensive. Also if it doesn't make much sense my mother and father divorced each other, and I have my father's last name. It's completely different from my mother's and stepfather's. --Kanashimi Hyoketsu 03:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Im sorry for your hardships but you have to get back on the horse so to speak and move on here. Anyways, I brought this here regarding your comments on your talkpage, will your account be all set here on Misplaced Pages? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess it is unable to be understood. I have someone stalking after me, trying to destroy everything. They are probably watching now. I can barely live like this, and I'm not wishing to pay attention a lot. I wish I could go back, but I can't. I wish I could send the girl away, but I can't. I wish I could erase the hatred and sadness, but I can't. Not anymore. I'd at the very least like someone able to speak to/for/with me, I don't want people misunderstanding what I say, taking offense to my words (and acting that way too), etc. I wish people would understand the severity, but how am I going to do that if they can't see me or talk with me? --Kanashimi Hyoketsu 03:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@KorinoChikara: Hej Undskyldninger hvis oversættelsen er forkert, men jeg bruger Google Translate som jeg kun taler engelsk! Har du prøvet at tale med din lokale politi?

Above translates as Apologies if the translation is wrong but I am using Google Translate as I only speak English!

Have you tried speaking to your local police? 5 albert square (talk) 12:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Editor201503

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor201503 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User was blocked just a couple of days ago for vandalism, and since then, he has:

• Change Dwayne Johnson's birthplace to something clearly incorrect
• Added "They will give you give you 666" to Illuminati
• Changed Joel Anthony's school to something clearly wrong and added questionable commentary
• Changed Chris Daughtry's hometown to something different from what's given in the source
• Changed the year Shōta Sometani won an award to the incorrect year

The reason I didn't just go straight to AIV is that he has some other edits that I can still pretend were made in good faith, or at least to maintain the appearance of good faith. They could be accidentally beneficial, as he may not have realized that he was actually improving a page by removing an unsourced and somewhat unnecessary statement, or he could be trying to cover his tracks, or the above acts could just be him not realizing that this is an encyclopedia and that it's best to double check one's facts before changing them.

Ian.thomson (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Indeffed as a hoaxster that isn't here to contribute.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Jravia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jravia is clearly only here for the purposes of self-promotion. So far, the contents of User:Jravia (and also now at User:Jravia/Jitendra Ravia as well) have been subject to an old AFC, two AFDs, a speedy deletion in 2013, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jitendra ravia and Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jravia in July 2014. I was the nominator of the last AFD so I'm open to others about speedy deleting this and probably blocking him due to the repeated G4 violations. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked & deleted, obviously here to promote himself and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 05:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Possible copyright violations at White Privilege

Could someone please check this for WP:COPYVIO. I removed most of it already once, but it looks to be re-added by a second burner account. Clearly large sections of a book have been cut and pasted as is noted by the inline citations to references within those sections. I don't want to be accused of an edit war. Arzel (talk) 03:48, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, a look at the recent history shows at least two additional SPA's adding large sections of cut and pasted material. Four editors in the past few days have added such material and this has been their only edits. Arzel (talk) 03:52, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a copyvio or not. I'll put my faith in you and reject the said inappropriate changes. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 14:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Ah, dammit. Nyttend (talk · contribs) has gone ahead and done it. --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 14:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Already handled by me; I don't care if it's a copyright infringement or not, since either it's that or a dump from the IP's self-written essay, and both of those options are inappropriate. Nyttend (talk) 14:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Sssh, use the template, {{ec}} instead. xD --Ankit Maity _{«T § C»} 14:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

IP trolling talk pages - block?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

103.244.189.183 (talk · contribs) seems to be leaving talk page messages that suggest battleground mentality / trolling. Block? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, seems to have some backstory of offsite harassment too. Blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Days after my return to Misplaced Pages after months away, cursing editor returns to bait me

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've been a Misplaced Pages editor for more than nine years, and generally well-regarded by my peers, if my awards cabinet is even a small indication. I've tried to get help from admin Dennis Brown, but he told me that since people curse in real life it's OK for an editor to tell me "fuck off" and repeatedly use other versions of the f-word at me.

Back in June, the edit-warring Winkelvi got into an edit-war and used inflammatory language that admittedly got me upset. Both of us were blocked temporarily by User:DangerousPanda, who like Dennis Brown said the f-bombs against me were OK. I understand DangerousPanda may have some admin ANI issues of his own now.

Here are four examples of Winkelvi's incivility at the time, that helped lead to our mutual block:

• "(as if it's any of your fucking business). And if you keep this bullshit up on my talk page, I'll remove your comments as well. Simply because you're starting to really piss me off..."

• Or this edit summary: "now stay away from my talk page and fuck off" Please note this is a personal attack: It's not the adjective form of "stay off my fucking page" but the verb form "fuck you." Why did an admin let that personal attack slide?

• When an editor starts an ANI, he is required to let the other editor know. I had no choice but to post the ANI notice on Winkelvi's talk page. Despite this requirement, this is how he responds: "(→‎ANI: stay the fuck off my damn talk page)"

• We're also required to post 3RR notices. So he falsely accuses me of harassment though according to Misplaced Pages 3RR reporting policy I had no choice put to post a 3RR warning: "(→‎3RR: already told you to stay the hell off my talk page, this is now harassment)' . Shortly after that, Dangerous Panda blocked him. -

Within days of my return, that editor was back on my talk page to bait me: He could have made his point on the article in question's talk page, but chose instead to come poke me. I responded by pointing to an infobox template that contradicted his assertion and told him to stay off my talk page, explaining I considered communication from him to be harassment. He responded first by bragging about how he told me "stay the fuck off his page" in June, and then began cursing me again with a brand-new "fucking" .

An admin who tolerates editors who tell others to "fuck off" is bad for Misplaced Pages. It engenders an atmosphere palatable only to angry, poorly socialized white guys in their 20s. It's disrespectful and a distinct turnoff to older editors, women, and many ethnic and religious groups, among others. And really: Do we want to create an environment hostile to anyone except guys who like say "fuck off"? To have Misplaced Pages be a disrespectful, uninviting place except for people like that?

Dennis Brown is OK with that. He told me "many people will occasionally say 'fuck off'," and goes to say that since he uses it in the real world it's OK to do it here. And then he blames me: "If you can't forgive small transgressions, then the internet is a bad place for you." We're not talking about the Internet. We're talking about Misplaced Pages, where WP:CIVIL is an important guideline. Dennis Brown's contention that anyone who doesn't like being told "fuck off" in a Misplaced Pages discussion should leave Misplaced Pages seems remarkable to me. Is that the bar we're setting for Misplaced Pages behavior? That repeatedly using the f-bomb against another editor is OK? --Tenebrae (talk) 09:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This permalink shows a section on Winkelvi's talk which you started. That was in response to a perfectly civil section from Winkelvi at your talk (permalink). Winkelvi is not a role model for collaborative language, but the response was perfectly in keeping with the style of your comments. It is never useful to hold a grudge, just forget that someone on the Internet was rude to you last June. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you for real? Let's do this - any editor who tells another editor to "fuck off" and stay off their talk page should consider it mutual.--v/r - TP 20:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Roger that, TParis: if another editor has given you offense and you have asked the offending party to stay off your talk page, then you -- at a minimum -- should be prepared to reciprocate and stay off the offending editor's talk page. To do otherwise strikes me as intentionally provocative and an attempt to continue an unnecessary feud. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I see. It's my fault he came unsolicited to my page after a lengthy ANI/3RR battle in June that got us both temporarily blocked from Misplaced Pages. That's a far, far cry from being "rude to in June."

Perhaps I could ask you to look here, look here, and look here ... mutual 3RR reports and an ANI. This wasn't "rudeness" ... this was all-our war between two editors that wound up in two blocks.

After all that, he deliberately comes to my page, when he could have gone to the article's talk page. That is baiting, and it was his deliberate choice.

And he's cursing at me again in November. So let's be clear that we're dealing with an angry, foulmouthed, uncivil person who went out of his way to provoke me simply by interacting with me. Why would a person who curses you, fought you, made (and continues to make) false accusations go to your talk page if not delieratey provoke you. And here's the thing: I can't curse at him, because the admin gives his special dispensation to curse at me. If I told Winkelvi the same number of f-words he told me, I'd be blocked in a second. Why is that?--Tenebrae (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• You are mischaracterizing what I said, which doesn't serve you well here. The original discussion is here . Let me repeat. He shouldn't have said "fuck off" and was warned as such back in June. When it comes to random use of the word, not in a personal attack: if you can't handle seeing it in type, then yes, the internet is a bad place for you, including Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages isn't a swear free zone. We try to promote a collegiate environment, but that doesn't mean we censor people. We do what we can to limit personal attacks, but we aren't going to start blocking people for occasional swearing. It simply isn't going to happen. It is the context that matters more than the words. Here, the sole reason you would have to complain is that he said "I wasn't fucking baiting you, I was trying to inform you.". You are free to call it crass, or try to encourage better use of language (a reasonable goal), but under no circumstance should we block someone who says "fuck" every now and then. You mentioned about how it offends devout Christians and Muslims on that talk page, but our goal isn't to cater to any religion, it is to provide a reasonable environment for all editors, including accommodating and tolerating whenever possible. Now, if he is edit warring or harassing or doing something else, then yes, blocks are possible, but your singular focus on the f-bomb is bordering on obsession. Dennis - 2¢ 12:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Concur, it's not a fair witness description of Dennis's statements. NE Ent 13:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it's entirely disappointing that both of these reliable editors are involved in such a thing as personal attacks and incivility. I don't think that cursing has any room on Misplaced Pages and believe me there have been many times that I would have loved to have told someone to fuck off but didn't. There is nothing on Misplaced Pages that can't be settled with just discussion, even heated, and consensus. I don't know the whole story and there is always 3 sides to every story, yours, theirs and the truth, but I think this just needs to stop. The edit in question of Winkelvi "baiting" Tene was Tene removing an IPs edit saying that Sebastian Stan and Chris Evans were married. Clearly they aren't. Clearly this is someone who is a fan of The Winter Soldier and wanted to make a silly edit. Wink's response on Tene's talk page, no offense Wink, was a little much. It had nothing to do with the LGBT community seeing as how they aren't a couple and pretty sure neither of them are gay, it was just a fan edit and that whole thing was unnecessary. I would just say at this point, try to stay away from each other, if your paths happen to cross, try to discuss the edit in question civilly and if you can't, ask for other neutral editors opinions. I don't want to see anyone leave. LADY LOTUS • TALK 12:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown is correct Misplaced Pages isn't a profanity free zone but considering the past between these two editors, special consideration should be taken when it comes language. They should know that such language only serves to escalate tensions not defuse them. It would also probably be beneficial if these two don't deal directly with each other and instead first seek wider community support for their rationales when it comes to content disputes.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • If it's profanity in general, yes, it's fine but when it's directed at someone for the use of nothing other than a personal attack or to escalate things, then profanity has no place here. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I think we're in agreement here.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• If Tenebrae's position is "Any communication from you is harassment," they will need to stay clear of any articles / discussions Winkelvi chooses to participate in. On the hand, a discussion of an edit on Chris Evans (actor) is best made on Talk:Chris_Evans_(actor), and I encourage Winkelvi in the future to use article, not user, talk for content discussions. NE Ent 13:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • If the edit was a legit edit that needed discussing, I would agree, but the fact that it was a fan made edit about two actors being married when clearly they aren't, that does not need to be discussed, just removed. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Concur -- didn't mean to imply a discussion was required, just that any discussion is best made on article talk. NE Ent 14:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Agreed, and you make a good point that discussions need to be made on the article talks not the editors. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
        • These cases are always problematic. I agree that swearing should be held to a minimum, but under no circumstances can we take actions for simple, occasional swearing that isn't calling someone a name, unless it part of a disruptive pattern (ie: happening daily or done just to disrupt). Misplaced Pages is a worldwide thing, a global encyclopedia. It requires we are all a bit more tolerant than perhaps we would like to be. In part, due to our own cultural biases and what we call "normal" isn't "normal" to everyone else. Also because humans are humans, and sometimes they are annoying as hell, including me. Like I told him way back when and again yesterday, telling someone to "fuck off" isn't acceptable, it is a bit too personal and aggressive. If he makes a habit of it, he will be blocked. If it is a rare occurrence, I would simply warn him, the same as I would anyone else. I tolerate all kinds of stuff I don't particularly like here. So must we all. WP:NPA is the line in the sand, and if someone gets too close to that line on a regular basis, then of course we will deal with it as well. I suggest we go edit articles now. I'm at work, so I'm going to go sell glass tubes of electric sunshine, and maybe edit later. Dennis - 2¢ 14:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
          • "Sell glass tubes of electric sunshine", that sounds lovely. And I agree, warnings should be given, and these two should just go back to editing and try not to interact too much. Cuss in general but keep the "fuck offs" to a minimum. LADY LOTUS • TALK 14:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
            • The reference is to indoor grow lights for medical marijuana. —Neotarf (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comments from the accused: First, I think it's important to look at the diffs in order of occurance: This edit prompted me to attempt to inform Tenebrae with a good faith effort that his reversion was questionable and why . The article he edited is on my watchlist, and I was about to deal with a pending reversion there, that's why I knew he had reverted the edit to begin with. I was not hounding his edits or looking for him to create an issue between us as he has implied. After reading my post on his page, his response was to not WP:AGF and accuse me in an edit summary of harassing him earlier this year (which I did not) . He then proceeded to my own talk page and left the following and, after reading a communication between me and another editor, took it upon himself to disparage me at that editor's talkpage here . Ironically, he remembered being told to stay off my talkpage and says any communication from will be considered harassment, but he keeps returning to my talkpage to continue accusing me of bad faith actions and harassment . When I went to his talkpage, all I was doing was trying to inform of something I thought he might be unaware of. That's it.

I have to admit I am truly perplexed by Tenebrae's choice to come here after he was told by two administrators (Dennis Brown and Drmies) that doing so would be a bad idea and the fuss he was making about this issue was over-the-top. I am also dismayed at his accusation that my only purpose for going to his talk page was to harass him and "stir up trouble" and to bait him. I could understand him feeling that way if I had been brash, "crass", or rude in the comments I left. But none of that happened. I had actually forgotten about our conflict a few months ago and didn't remember what had occurred until he came to my talk page, brought it up, and made baseless accusations and personal attacks there as well as in the edit summary he left when deleting my comments. I had stated on Dangerous Panda's talkpage that even after this episode, I'm willing to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones - to edit in the future with him collegially and peacefully. I further wrote that I hoped he could see his way to turning the clock back on all this and forgetting his grudge against me. He read my attempt at an olive-branch, responded nastily with more accusations, and then came here. But he didn't just come here. He then also went on a support canvassing campaign here , here , here , here , here , and here .

In conclusion, I can't see why I should receive any warnings for anything as some here have suggested. My initial contact with Tenebrae was totally in good faith. I did not "brag" about the incident(s) between us back in June as he claims. The negative picture Tenebrae is attempting to paint of me is from six months ago, not now. If anyone should receive a warning it should be Tenebrae for wasting the community's time on this report/complaint as it is more about Tenebrae wanting to see me punished for something I said/did 6 months ago and the fact the he still hasn't gotten over it. Look at the diffs above: Tenebrae is the one who is looking to cause trouble for me, not the other way around. I can't stress more that when I went to Tenebrae's talk page it was completely in good faith. Please note, the tension and drama only started when Tenebrae reacted as he did, not before. That reaction continued for post after post on my talk page and at post after post on the talk pages of others. There, he continued his over-reacting and accusations, doing everything he could to relive our contact 6 months ago (he's doing it here in the initial report, too) as well as his editing block (which was longer than my own, and I think that is what really rankled him and kept him away for months on end). In the future, I will now have no problem remembering what happened between us in June 2014 because of this ridiculous mess happening now. That memory will keep me from interacting with him at all costs. Unless, of course, he can finally accept the olive branch I presented him yesterday and leave his near obsessive and vitriolic grudge against me behind. Holding onto it is not healthy for him or the Misplaced Pages community. As this report has clearly demonstrated. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Coming to my page to haughtily claim I'm wrong about something, when he in fact didn't read the relevant Misplaced Pages template and was wrong himself ... that's not an "olive branch."

"fuck off" is a personal attack and he got away with it. Fine. Dennis Brown says, Well, it's OK to say "fuck off" if you don't make a habit of it. Yet Winkelvi throws the f-bomb gratuitously again in November. He has done so in every series of communication with me. Is that "repeated behavior"? Tell me, please, how it's not.

Baiting someone and then saying, "Oh, look, he's holding a grudge" is classic misdirection. And another lie. I was not, in fact, holding a grudge. I returned to Misplaced Pages and presumed that with the thousands of editors here we would never have to cross paths again. He chose to be the instigator. I never would have spoken to him again. So clearly, he is the one who is obsessing on me and refuses to let go, --Tenebrae (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I. Did. Not. Bait. You. You assumed that was what I was doing because the lens through which you were seeing me (and are still seeing me) was clouded by your anger and grudge against me due to what happened six months ago. That is obvious by what you posted here on October 22nd: "I've been off Misplaced Pages for a few months after some excruciatingly frustrating experience with a bunch of trollish Wikipedians, including an admin who says it's OK for another editor, perhaps his buddy, to curse at me and presumably at other editors". You are holding a grudge, and I'm not the only one who has pointed this out. Are you also accusing those who have noted this grudge as also misdirecting?

And, please, stop bringing up the "fuck off" comment as if it happened in the last couple of days. It did not. It happened six months ago. Please let it go and move forward, hopefully by accepting the offer I gave you in all sincerity: to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones, edit together in the future collegially and peacefully as well see your way to turning the clock back on all this and forgetting your grudge against me for something that happened quite a while ago. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You conveniently ignore you threw a "fucking" at me just yesterday. This is a pattern with you, and constant cursing at someone is classic bullying. Oh, and you did brag yesterday about cursing me previously: "And, by the way, I think I said 'stay the fuck off my talkpage', not the version you remember."

Giving an explanation for my absence is holding a grudge? No. If I were to have gone to you or gone to admins to stir things up, that is holding a grudge. And that's exactly the case with you when you came unsolicited to my talk page to claim, erroneously, that I was wrong about something, though Misplaced Pages template policy does not support you. Coming to me within days of my returning ... that seems like you're obsessing about me, and now you've told another editor on his talk page that you plan on stalking me. There's something quite wrong going on.--Tenebrae (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"and now you've told another editor on his talk page that you plan on stalking me. There's something quite wrong going on" What? I said I was going to be stalking you, where? Diff, please. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"I will need to keep tabs on what you post on talk pages to ensure you are not committing incivility and trying to disparage my name" . So you're going to follow me all around my talk-page posts? All of them? Really? That's stalking.

And it is not the place of even a civil editor, let alone one who curses other editors, to follow an editor around to try to catch him being uncivil. And I never even used your name in that post that advised a fellow editor to ask for proof when another editor makes a policy/guideline assertion — a completely non-controversial piece of advice. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I rightfully stated I would have to start watching your talk page comments for you discussing me and making disparaging comments. I said it because it was clear to me at that point that you weren't going to stop your efforts to see me punished for the transgressions you imagine I committed against you six months ago. And, I note you did more of that today on the same editor's talkpage : "Wow, you really are obsessed with me", "now saying you'll stalk me", "misleading other editors by saying your personal preference is the truth is just wrong". Implying that because you didn't mention me by name exonerates you from personal attacks and incivility just doesn't wash.

I'm done trying to communicate with you here. This whole experience has been beyond frustrating, and frankly, just doesn't deserve any more attention that it has already garnered. Trying to work things out with you while you are in this state of upset is clearly not going to do anything productive. If you want to continue, please do. Because, in my opinion, it only further sullies your "cause" to see me punished. Which is what this is all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:48, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

An IBAN would be appropiate, 1-way or 2-way. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

One-way IBANs are inherently inequitable. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

As a completely impartial observer, I saw Winkelvi leave a civil message (which may or many not have been supported by the infobox MoS), and Tenebrae responded with a bit of a temper. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You would need to see whole backstory: Look here, look here, and look here ... mutual 3RR reports and an ANI. Coming to my talk page at all after that, when he could have used the article's talk page, was a deliberate choice on his part. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I won't read the entire history, because it seems to be just that, history. While he could have used the article talk page, he left a perfectly civil note on your talk page. You could have ignored it, deleted it, or considered having a rational discussion. Instead you confronted him on his talk page, and now this is happening. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@Winkelvi: in regards to the "support canvassing campaign", I don't state my opinion in favor of the editor who asked me to voice it unless that's my actual opinion. What I wrote was neutral and not a full advocacy of having you punished. I think that's what Tene wanted was to have people on neutral ground state what they thought. LADY LOTUS • TALK 17:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Tenebrae, you have already been told by myself and an uninvolved editor that you are mischaracterizing my comments, undoubtedly with the goal of making me look bad. My comments are linked, you don't need to twist and misquote them. I was brutally clear. At this point, I'm going to recommend you drop the stick. I wouldn't recommend an interaction ban, as currently Tenenbrae's constant hammering in multiple places (I already closed the thread on DangerousPanda's page) has become disruptive to Misplaced Pages as a whole than the single utterance of the word "fuck" (keep in mind, the other use was in June and was dealt with then). You keep saying the same thing over and over, and you just don't like the answers you are getting there, so you tried here. We aren't a Magic 8 ball, you don't get to keep shaking until you get an answer you like. Ironically, this started over the use of the word "fuck" two times in five months by a user, yet has been used 49 times in this one ANI posting, just this morning, mainly by Tenebrae. It is the very definition of absurd. At this point, I'm going to strongly recommend both editors disengage and do their best to simply avoid each other, because if this cat fight ANI discussion continues, it will end badly for someone(s). Dennis - 2¢ 18:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I never wanted to engage with Winkelvi in the first place, and I will gladly disengage if he will do the same. I will say, however, that since your own actions as an admin are in question, an impartial, uninvolved admin needs to weigh in. That's only fair. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

And it's not canvassing when one doesn't ask for support. A couple of editors are trying to drive me off Misplaced Pages and my colleagues deserve to be alerted. I asked for no support and said only: "I just wanted to let some of the good and responsible editors here know, and that if they're interested in following what's going on, that's the link." I never asked anyone to comment. In addition, the editors with whom I am collegial are all their own people who would never betray their beliefs, and I certainly don't know what they're going to say. They are hardly puppets, and are outspoken people with a variety of viewpoints. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

For the record, he cursed me with "fuck" or "fucking" four times, not two. I've already providing the diffs. Let's be accurate, please. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Admins are not classroom monitors, so if someone is merely offended by certain language then I think it is right to dismiss the complaint. However, if Tenebrae is becoming annoyed or distressed at being repeatedly sworn at then maybe Winkelvi could just agree to not swear directly at him, regardless of whether he feels justified. It seems a reasonable request to me, even if you have poor relations with the other editor, and one I would personally strive to respect. Betty Logan (talk) 18:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Presumably yours is a response engendered by this? I'm not convinced that Tenebrae has demonstrated Winkelvi has been swearing directly at them recently, so it may not be particularly relevant. Tenebrae is upset and needs to get over it. - Sitush (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
• This is part of the "shaking the Magic 8 ball" I spoke of. And yes Betty, but there is 4-5 months between incidents, and the two events aren't the same. That is the whole point, and why I recommended Tenebrae just walk away. Now his disruption includes trying to canvass you for support. Of course, I don't blame you for that, as he deliberately mislead you in his point on your talk page, and again misquoted me. If this continues, I'm going to simply ask for Tenebrae to be blocked a week for WP:DE via not dropping the stick and intentionally misrepresenting the words of others (deception). Dennis - 2¢ 19:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

You're threatening to block me when your own actions and statements as an admin are at issue? How is that possibly just? The Noticeboard is where we're supposed to hash things out. It's up to an impartial, third-party admin to close it. Threatening to block me when you are one of the parties involved ... wow.

I didn't misquote or misrepresent you. Here is what you said : "I'm saying that many people will occasionally say 'fuck off.' I don't remember doing it here, but in the real world, yes, I've told someone to fuck off more than once in my life. Probably once every year or two. Granted, in the real world, when I get fed up, I can be crass, I won't deny it. I'm saying that if it is a habit, it becomes a problem. If it isn't a habit, then it is just a singular rude overreaction."

So it's OK to "occasionally say 'fuck off'" on Misplaced Pages. So because you use "fuck" occasionally in real life, it's OK for Wikipedians to use it. I'm not misquoting or misrepresenting you.

"I'm saying that if it is a habit, it becomes a problem." Four times using "fuck" or "fucking" in two consecutive encounters seems a habit to me. (The 4 1/2 month difference is deceptive since I wasn't even here for that time. He instigated unasked-for contact within days of my return.)

"If you can't forgive small transgressions, then the internet is a bad place for you." We're not talking about the whole Internet, but Wikipeda, which has a civility guideline. Being told "fuck" repeatedly is not a small transgression. But you seem to think I should take it as that or else Misplaced Pages is "a bad place for ." I believe WP:CIVIL frowns on an editor using the f-word against another editor repeatedly. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

He didn't threaten to block you. He asked for a block to be considered, implying he will not be imposing it as he is involved. 4.34.132.146 (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, Tenebrae, go have a cup of tea. This is likely to end badly for you if you do not. You have misrepresented, you have canvassed, you are still holding the stick and you have been around long enough now surely to realise that the Civility policy is dead in the water except perhaps for repetitive (as in daily etc) and egregious examples. The "best" outcome for you here seems to be that Wv gets blocked punitively for a few hours by some admin with less than perfect clue, and that won't actually change a thing. Wv has offered a reasonable proposal and you seem not to want to take it. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Tenebrae, you are going on and on and on and on about this. Over and over. Dennis did not say it's ok, just that it's not the worst sin in the world. It just a word, a word many people say when they stub their toe. Logically it should be far less disturbing to "devout Christians and Muslims" than saying, say, GODDAM, which is asking God to consign someone to eternal torment. And yet we generally treat that swearword as trivial. 'Fuck' has no religious meaning at all, so should not affect Christians or Muslims more than anyone else. For the record I think Winkelvi's comment on your talk page was utterly stupid and they should be ashamed of themselves for sanctimoniously insinuating that you were homophobic, un-PC or whatever for removing something so obviously false and silly. Yes, it was provocative bear-poking. But that does not justify you acting as though you are on a mauling rampage and going on and on and on about one semi-meaningless word "repeated" over a space of several months. Working with others is also about letting some things drop to foster useful work. Many times I've decided to let someone else have "the last word" when I've seen a discussion is just degenerating into a pointless tit-for-tat fault-identifying excercise. It's natural to want to "win" or prove yourself "right", but it's not always productive. Paul B (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's hard not to respond to statements like "the Civility policy is dead in the water." That's simply one editor's opinion; that opinion doesn't override policy. Misplaced Pages:Civility is a policy in effect and I think we're all expected to be civil on Misplaced Pages.

Sitush is correct in saying Dennis Brown only threatened to ask for a block, not to block me himself. I apologize for misstating. I did not misrepresent any other statement; in fact, I copy-pasted his own words here.

That said, I thank you Paul B for acknowledging the "provocative bear-poking." That acknowledgment and to keep Winkelvi away from ever interacting with me is all I've asked for this entire time. Winkelvi keeps saying I want him "punished." I never said that. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not "culture"; it is verbal abuse. No possible good can come from adding provocative language to a content dispute. Admins should be discouraging this, not making excuses for it. —Neotarf (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• And when it is a personal attack or extraordinarily harsh, admin do take action. What admin (and non-admin) SHOULDN'T do is be control freaks that tell everyone which words are ok and which words aren't. Admin aren't nannies, school marms or the PC police, we are here to facilitate solutions to problems, which should be in proportion to the problem itself. Dennis - 2¢ 02:11, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, could we have some clarification here?

The editor who is objecting here is a person of long standing who would like to be treated with respect. It doesn't mean they're always right, just that they'd like other people to be respectful; and they're probably open to someone reminding them to be respectful too.

Certainly other people editing this website need the ability to inform us of errors, indicate they are upset, and in some cases tell us to stop communicating with them. We all know that the English language has plenty of ways to do this that don't require swearing at people. And we also all know where we'll be going as a community, if we continue to act like this website is our "Mean and Grouchy Swearing Club" and everyone who doesn't like it should leave.

That said, it can't just be the task of a single administrator alone like User:Dennis Brown to improve the atmosphere here.

We all need to uphold the Aloha Spirit, and find more examples for promoting positive communication styles if we want the site to grow. And if "Aloha" is a little much for some folks, most cultures have some version of "here is how we treat others when we want to show we are friendly and respectful." Pretty often (though not always), you can tell when someone is making a effort to be friendly and respectful with you.

Are the folks in this thread really suggesting that all editors here have to accept people swearing at us, because that's where the community wants to set its social norms? -- Djembayz (talk) 03:11, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Romeo Ravi kumar sah

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Romeo Ravi kumar sah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be a vandalism-only account; repeated deletion of content from List of cities in Nepal, creation of a WP:HOAX article Thareshwarnath for an imagined place mentioned in no WP:RS anywhere. Anaitha is a similar hoax, created by a similarly-named user who was already blocked as an vandalism-only account; one page links to the other. I'd call WP:SOCK on this, but there's no need as the content itself is vandalism-only and can stand or fall on its own merits. Other users have already placed the talk-page warnings to no avail. K7L (talk) 16:18, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked per WP:DUCK for block evasion. --Kinu /_c 19:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Quest Early College High School‎

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would it be possible to get Quest Early College High School‎ locked? It has been vandalised around 50 times in the last day by several different accounts. Thanks, Haminoon (talk) 18:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Several of the vandal accounts have now been blocked. If the disruption still continues, you can request semi-protection at WP:RFPP. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have semi-protected the page for 3 days. For future protection requests please consider WP:RFP. De728631 (talk) 19:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Admin decides and then gets involved to support themselves

Mevarus (talk · contribs) moved Gaza beach explosion (2006) twice in 33 hrs, without proper discussion (the page is within 1RR rule). After the second move, I requested a Move back to revert vandalism. ("Technical request") . Then admin Anthony Appleyard (talk · contribs) contested this rv request, and turned it into a Requested move . However, the admin decided to not revert the vandalism. As is the correct route, I asked on their talkpage about this, to which the admin has not responded.

Then I noticed that that admin had engaged themselves in the move discussion, with the !vote position that they supported the move (they had not reverted). In other words: the admin refused to revert vandalism, and then went into the discussion to support, as an involved editor, their own admin decision. When I discovered this I again went to their talkpage , but this too got no response.

I request that the admin is told that this involvement in their own decision is incorrect behaviour. Also not responding to questions asked wrt their admin action is unbecoming for an admin. (FYI, in the talkpage discussion I noted that the editor who did the moves is "gaming the system", and after that the discussion was disrupted by canvassing. So far for rewarding the move warrior). -DePiep (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, what happened differed in some respects from what you have said; for example, Mevarus did not move the article twice in 33 hours, nor indeed in any number of hours: he or she moved it only once. Secondly, the move was not "vandalism": good faith changes which you disagree with are not vandalism. Thirdly, to claim that a requested move is "uncontroversial" when you know full well that other editors have moved it in the opposite direction is absurd. Fourthly, once Anthony had recognised that the move request was controversial, he could have just declined the request, but instead he chose to start a discussion on it, saving you from the trouble of doing so. There is no reason on earth why he should not then express an opinion in the discussion. Not responding to your talk page message is the only aspect of this case where he might reasonably be thought not to have acted impeccably, but we are all volunteers, and none of us is obliged to do anything, including responding to talk page posts. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• "However, the admin decided to not revert the vandalism.: I know the rule, but here, obeying it (by moving all those pages to the capitalized forms) would have needed me to make nearly a hundred page moves before discussion could start, and if the discussion had decided on "accept the uncapitalized forms of the names", I or someone would have had to do another nearly a hundred page moves. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? As far as I can see, we are only talking about one page, not hundreds, and capitalisation has nothing to do with it. RolandR (talk) 01:51, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat

Najemhasan added a comment to the Bobby Cummines stating all IP addresses and edits are logged (diff) I'm not too sure if it is a legal threat, however I'd thought I would report it. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Meh. I don't know if I'd call it a legal threat (else the whole WP:ABUSE system might have itself constituted an ongoing legal threat, along with all the shared IP templates that mention abuse reporting). But it's definitely inappropriate and likely merits having a chat with Najemhasan. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It qualifies as a legal threat as wikipedia uses the term, and the guy also boldly asserts a claim of authority due to being closely related in some way. Two reasons to put the guy away permanently. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I've just advised him about WP:COI. —C.Fred (talk) 21:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

It's now marked for a speedy, so it might disappear before the threatener has a chance to squeal. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:05, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Oddly enough, the article has been here for 4 1/2 years. Maybe getting it deleted is what the threatener really wants. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks, 3RR edit-warring and article ownership by user Tharthan

Sorry, this was mistakenly entered under the main AN, not ANI.JesseRafe (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The user Tharthan has been edit warring on two articles, violating 3rr, the first being Yo Edit History (which also included a personal attack in an edit summary) and the second is Erewhon Edit History. I stopped after two edits, but this editor seems to be unable or unwilling to let go of his own prose and style, writing in a distracting and overly-indulgent tone and language (just see his User Page for his manifesto on his affected wordchoice (e.g. he insists "whilst" is perfectly normal for North America whereas every single style guide suggests avoiding it, even for British/Commonwealth speakers/writers, including both while and wiktionary:whilst. JesseRafe (talk) 15:23, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Further, I posted on his Talk Page a formulaic warning about personal attacks (cf. "callow fool") in case he had a history of these and he erased it, which I assume is a user's prerogative to whitewash their bad history. JesseRafe (talk) 15:53, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

P̶a̶r̶d̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶i̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶p̶a̶g̶e̶?̶ ̶I have already apologised to you for the personal attack (which I, again, apologise for), explained why I removed the unwarranted template "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" talk page post, and also attempted to start a discussion with you at your own talk page regarding the issue at hand. However, I was at school when I wrote that post, and now that I come home I see that you have suddenly started a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard of all places over a relatively minor and easily resolvable issue. If you truly thought that it was a bigger problem, it would have been fairer to have started a discussion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard than to so swiftly take your concerns here.

Furthermore, whilst I do apologise for getting a bit heated up earlier, I would appreciate if you did not yourself act so hostilely towards me.

Finally, I was unaware that I broke 3RR. I was almost certain that these edits had taken place over the period of several days. If I am incorrect on this point, then I sincerely apologise.

In addition, the reason I maintained that we keep "whilst" on the page in question was because it was not confusing, it was the wording of the original writer of that (myself) and it had no real reason to be removed other than a dissonance of style.

EDIT: I have also responded to your response to my response on your talk page.

EDIT 2: Also, I never claimed that "whilst" was common across North America, I merely said that it had use in North America, and it has plenty of currency in my local dialect.

Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I post this now after trying to have a civil discussion with user JesseRafe at their talk page, but said person seems to have no wish to discuss things civilly whatsoever. They now are making rude statements ("blowhard" being one that they used that actually borderlines on being a personal attack) about my character and my intentions when such information has no bearing on the discussion being had there. I leave things to your decision, administrators, because it seems as if JesseRafe has no interest in coming to a peaceful agreement on this matter. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 22:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Usage note: "whilst" is not used in North America. Those who do not read modem British fiction might not even recognize it as a word. --NellieBly (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Tharthan, my intentions and words were clear, I didn't want your whining and excuses on my Talk Page. If you want to discuss "whilst" do it on the while page (as whilst doesn't have one, hmmm, what does that tell you?) as that discussion doesn't belong on Yo, but what does is your flagrant deletion of cited and sourced material for your own unverified etymological musings. As to Erewhon, again you made a unilateral move when there was zero Talk Page consensus, used horrendously unencyclopedic tone in your prose, and just mindlessly revert without even considering you might be in the wrong. Keep those discussions where they belong, I said "leave off" because I find it annoying to have 8 notifications in 10 minutes because some editor insists on both writing on my Talk Page AND not knowing there's a "preview" function (hint: use it). Thanks! JesseRafe (talk) 01:49, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@NellieBly I have been using it since I was a child and have never run into anyone who questioned my using of it (neither as a child, nor now). In addition, I have talked with many a person who also uses the term. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the exact clarification given to "whilst" by comprehensive and neutral sources is that it is rare in North America, and might be perceived negatively by some. Not that it is not present at all or only as a Briticism. Remember, though, I don't speak for North America or the United States, I only speak for my area. @JesseRafe Frankly, I am tired of this cynicism and name calling. It did initially arise from an already apologised-for (multiple times) personal attack made by me, but now at this point all that's going on here is the uttering of rude comments and hostility for no good reason whatsoever. Choose not to accept my apology if you so wish; I have offered it to you sincerely and as a gesture of goodwill. But if you so choose to think of me as some overzealous editor or haughty dandy or whatnot, please at least stop this incivility.

Switch the pages in question back to your preferred version if that'll satisfy you. I'm not going to fight against your claims. Just please stop this.Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 02:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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