Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:41, 15 November 2014

• WP:AN
• WP:ANB

• For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
• To request review of an administrator's action or other use of advanced permissions, use Misplaced Pages:Administrative action review
• If you are new, try the Teahouse instead.
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead, follow the instructions on Misplaced Pages:Requests for oversight.
• For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent.
• Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here.
• Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• If you want to challenge the closure of a request for comment, use {{RfC closure review}}

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search)

Template:Active editnotice

This page has an administrative backlog that requires the attention of willing administrators. Please replace this notice with {{no admin backlog}} when the backlog is cleared.

You may want to increment {{Archive basics}} to |counter= 38 as Misplaced Pages:Closure requests/Archive 37 is larger than the recommended 150Kb.

Archives

Index no archives yet (create)

This page has archives. Sections older than 2 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present.

• WP:CR
• WP:RFCL
• WP:ANRFC

Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old
• Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion
• Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Awaiting closure
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Old discussions
• Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion#Old business
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers/Log
• Misplaced Pages:Proposed article splits

Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 29 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 27 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 95 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 75 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 66 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 57 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 49 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 35 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done Seraphimblade 10:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Wicked (2024 film)#RfC on whether credited name or common name should be used

(Initiated 31 days ago on 11 December 2024) Participation mostly slowed, should have an independent close. Happily888 (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 22 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 10 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 10 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 108 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 74 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 65 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 45 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 14 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Nigger of the Narcissus

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please create a redirect from this page to The Nigger of the 'Narcissus'.

This is pursuant to

Permission error

You do not have permission to create this discussion page, for the following reason: The page title or edit you have tried to create has been restricted to administrators at this time. It matches an entry on the local or global blacklists, which is usually used to prevent vandalism.

If you receive this message when trying to edit, create or move an existing page, follow these instructions:

• Any administrator can create or move this page for you. Please post a request at the Administrators' noticeboard
• You may also contact any administrator on their talk page or by email.
• Be sure to specify the exact title (especially by linking it) of the page you are trying to create or edit, and if it might be misunderstood (for example, an article with an unusual name), consider explaining briefly what you want to do.
• If you wrote any text, save it temporarily on your computer until you can edit the page.

Thank you.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC).

 Done Mfield (Oi!) 17:49, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

RFC close review Talk:2014 Iranian-led intervention in Iraq#Iran, Hezbollah Reaction to American-led intervention in Iraq

I've discussed this with the closer on their talk page. I question if this is a reasonable summation of the consensus as it is not a reasonable clear determination. The support for the inclusion seems to be based on the poll. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Timestamp to prevent premature archiving. Cunard (talk) 03:17, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Timestamp to prevent premature archiving. Cunard (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Timestamp to prevent premature archiving. Cunard (talk) 03:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Article taken from sandbox

Without sounding overly dramatic, what is the process when somebody steals an article from your sandbox? I'm talking about Jack Harper (footballer) which has been entirely lifted (via C&P) by Meeneunos10 (talk · contribs) from User:GiantSnowman/Jack Harper. GiantSnowman 16:53, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It's still in your sandbox. The other fellow merely copied what you had & beat you to creating the article. GoodDay (talk) 16:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

And in the process, 'merely' omitted to note the source, thereby violating copyright. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:59, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Precisely my issue, Andy. GiantSnowman 17:43, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

A histmerge should be performed. I've tagged the article. --NeilN 17:09, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I have merged the histories of these two pages but I would like to hear GiantSnowman's opinion. You must have had a reason to keep the draft in your sandbox without publishing it, so maybe it should be moved back? De728631 (talk) 17:38, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It remained in my sandbox because he is not (yet, in my opinion) notable... GiantSnowman 17:43, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be surprised if he replies. In all his edits he's only posted once to a talk page. I'm not fond of non-communicative editors. Dougweller (talk) 17:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Neither am I, and I don't approve of copying content from other people's user space without asking for permission. As to notability, I'd say Jack Harper is borderline notable given that he's been covered by multiple reliable sources. But I wouldn't mind an AfD either. De728631 (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Could WP:CSD#G7 apply here? GiantSnowman 18:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Why not just move it back to your sandbox and delete the redirect? Number 57 18:53, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit flummoxed by this, so for clarification - Has this guy just nicked a draft article from Mr. Snowman and passed it off as his own? Are there no policies about this sort of thing? Can't we give him a good slapping behind the bike sheds? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 18:57, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

It was copyvio. I've been bold and moved it back (and fixed the categories so they show but don't add the article to the categories). Hope I haven't upset anyone but I think that's the best solution. Dougweller (talk) 19:29, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's what I thought should be done, but I wasn't sure (hence why I raised it here - and when it happened previously, with a different user, we went through AFD). GiantSnowman 20:21, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

NeilN left a good msg to him, I've upped that ante, so they should get the message. Dennis - 2¢ 20:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Good job, Doug. I think this is the best solution. But just like GiantSnowman I was thinking along the lines of an AfD. The latter should then preferably have resulted in a move back to user space. But if we can spare some bureaucratic act then that's all the better. De728631 (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

More generally, if editor A writes a drat in their sandbox, and editor B thinks it is ready to be an article, or that they can contribute to it, editor B is perfectly entitled to move it to user space, or to draft space, or to edit it further. Nobody owns an article. All contributions to WP in any space are irrevocable ,and anyone may use it for any purpose, including the creation of a wikipedia article. sandboxes and draft space are there for protection of incomplete articles against deletion, not to create a private space.

Attribution is of course necessary, and is best provided by moving the page. We routinely move drafts from user space to draft space (formerly, to AfC). I have a number of times moved user sandboxes or unsubmitted drafts to article space if I think they are ready, but the user is not working on them. (It is ofcourse courteous to inform the user if the user is still active)

If the move is by copypaste, the attribution can easily be provided inseveral ways ; a history merge is preferred from a sandbox, because the earlier material might be deleted. DGG ( talk ) 09:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, this is correct... but I think there ought to be a behavioral standard that calls for at least a user talk message prior to moving a draft someone's written entirely themselves to mainspace. Sometimes editors sit on drafts for awhile, for instance because of sourcing concerns, and may even start working on something else (while this has happened to me, I'm not complaining about any specific instance since I'm ultimately fine with the choice of the editor who made the pagemove). I just think that, particularly where the creator is active, and the draft isn't so old as to be G13-eligible, the creator's input (though not necessarily permission) should be sought before moving it out of userspace. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 11:19, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I stumbled on this thread, excuse the intrusion. Unfortunately the discussion has taken my rather irrational but troubling article creation phobia to a whole new level. It was my understanding that a sandbox was a private user space, a workshop, a garage, where one could create and tinker in peace on work. Editors may not "own" articles but individual editors create the article concept. That is an individual, not a collegiate process. So one could one be working on an article, have the cites, pics, text 90% ready, and then it is taken? How does this explain the scores of "Articles I have created" lists on the talkpages of some of our most prolific content-creators?. There does appear to be an original conceptual "ownership", until an article is released onto mainspace, where it does indeed become common intellectual property, to be worked on by all. I find this concept mildly disturbing. Irondome (talk) 13:20, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

@Irondome: is that a thinly veiled accusation of OWNership aimed at myself? GiantSnowman 13:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

No. Irondome (talk) 13:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I quote the intro to WP:OWN — Even though editors can never "own" an article, it is important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Yes, you have the legal right to copy someone's sandbox into mainspace, but you absolutely must attribute it, and if you don't (e.g. this situation), you've committed copyright infringement. Copying it to mainspace, with proper attribution, is legal, but it goes against our community norms, and in most cases it's definitely not respectful. The answers to "Is X legal" and "Is X appropriate" are very often significantly different. Nobody's likely to complain if you move content to mainspace from the sandbox of a user who's been inactive for a long time, but (1) you still ought to leave a talk page note, in case the user comes back, and (2) that's because good content ought not be forgotten simply because the user's no longer active. This is quite different from when the user is still active; even if you think its writer has forgotten it, you should simply leave a talk page note, not copy the content to mainspace. Nyttend (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

As I said on the user's page, moving something from someone else's user space "is like a stranger walking up and eating food from your plate at a restaurant, without asking." Even if done with attribution, it is still a rude act. While it doesn't break any copyright policy if done properly, as a behavior, it should be discouraged. You should ask first unless you know the user is no longer active. While none of us owns our user space, there is no question that we each are granted a higher degree of control over it, and this should be respected. Dennis - 2¢ 19:32, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Very well put. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:20, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

There is something very wrong about this situation. Until the article is released/published by the author and placed into article space, it is not an "article", and thus is protected by copyright. If it's not that way here, then it should be. OTOH, if an editor is creating an article in their userspace and they allow other editors to help them develop the article, then they share in that copyright, but it's still not an "article" until released, and it is the right of the original author to determine the time of release. We really need to ensure that the author maintains control until they are ready, or they release control voluntarily. They need to give permission.

If a hunter, knowing a fellow hunter was stalking and about to shoot a deer, then shot the deer first, some blows might ensue, or even a grave found later in the forest for such a misdeed. Poaching an article or a deer is a very offensive crime.

We should make it a behavioral policy that poaching someone else's work is sanctionable. We don't allow legal threats between editors for such, otherwise illegal, actions, but we do have other ways of sanctioning misdeeds here. What is illegal and wrong outside of Misplaced Pages should usually, to some degree. also be considered wrong here. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:16, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

This is quite interesting. I can't see any issue of Copyright since no user owns their talk page or anything else on WP. Also, since only free content can be included on WP then it is impossible to claim copyright on something that no one can claim to own. If I come upon your sand castle on the beach and knock it over, I am a jerk, but I haven't done anything illegal. It would appear that the only real problem here is the notion of who creates an article and who gets credit for actually creating an article. Arzel (talk) 21:49, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not a debating forum where we explore the meaning of liberty and ownership. The entire issue is that building the encyclopedia requires a collaborative community, and if an editor is slowly developing an article in their user space, then another editor is being disruptive if they choose to move the page or copy/paste it with attribution. Sure, if the author takes a long wikibreak and messages on their talk result in no feedback, it might be appropriate to move a draft from someone's user space. However, the issue here is entirely to do with fostering a collaborative community. Johnuniq (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's just bloody rude. Irondome (talk) 00:13, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

A similar situation

Please forgive me for butting in, but I have just discovered a similar situation and am not sure what I should do. I have had a page for a Japanese baseball player in my sandbox for a long time. The page is at User:Athomeinkobe/Kato. Most of it is my translation of the corresponding Japanese wiki page, plus some other facts I have found. It is not ready yet, as I have not finished the translation and want to find some further references, including english references if possible. But I have just discovered that the player in question is no longer a red link Kosuke Kato. I can see that the first version of the page is a direct copy and paste from my sandbox, including all of the untranslated Japanese text. I have advanced my work since then, but nothing substantial has happened to the main article. What should I do? Your advice is appreciated. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 15:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

More admins at CFD, please

WP:CFD has a major backlog - going as far back as early August. Some help out there would be useful. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I second this. A couple of admins spending an hour or two on this would clear it today. Lugnuts 18:30, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Any takers? Lugnuts 08:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Requests for Comment/User:PBS - Admin misconduct

I'm short of time and need to leave on a trip where will not have any internet. I put an RFC together on my talk page with the precious few minutes I have. I'm several hours late departing for a fairly long sabatical and did not have time to do the whole process. Please be kind, I don't deserve the treatment I've received.~Technophant (talk) 19:19, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

In my absence I authorize my friend and esteemed colleague User:P123ct1 to edit this RFC/U and answer question on my behalf. He has over 25% of the total edits to the ISIL page and has been instrumental in helping me curate this article since we both started in May of this year. (If this RFC/U could get transferred to it's proper place that would be best.) Bye for now.~Technophant (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand the urgency or timing of this request, honestly. If you're leaving, and won't be able to even edit for several days, a week, or longer, why the rush to have interaction bans imposed in your absence? As near as I can figure out, that's all you're requesting. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I was not consulted about this. I only learned of this RfC/U half an hour ago via an email from Technophant and this delegation of responsibility was not mentioned. I have been given a responsibility I was not asked to undertake. This will have to wait for his return. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 20:18, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that policy permits one person to speak for another anyway, at least to this extent. WP:Power of attorney is a redlink.... Dennis - 2¢ 20:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to come back from your trip, then start a Rfc/U & avoid proxies? GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Given P123ct1's unwillingness to be the proxy, it won't be possible for this RFCU to happen. And I agree, it would be quite a bad idea for us to have some sort of POA system. "Can you do X for me" is appropriate if you're asking someone else to take responsibility, and I doubt if anyone would complain (on principle) if you say "Can you copy/paste what I wrote", but making one person responsible for another person's actions is confusing and really ought not be done. Nyttend (talk) 20:49, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see much problem with it. You're going on a trip and can't edit Misplaced Pages in that time frame, so you make sure someone trusted--who you know shares your concerns drafts it--that's fine. He's not blocked, so it's not 'proxying', he's asking someone he trusts to edit the page with the concerns since he feels it's urgent enough to warrant it. No problem with that, and I don't know of any policy/guideline that prohibits it. Tutelary (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary: Have you read my comments? I was not asked. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 21:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Even with your acceptance, it wouldn't matter. Speaking hypothetically, what if you then go and vandalize articles, make personal attacks against a bunch of people, then delete the front page, and claim you were doing it on his behalf? That is the problem, the concept itself is completely flawed and will never see the light of day in any policy here. Dennis - 2¢ 21:42, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's outside of the view that the user tried to guise him to do. There's a whole difference between that is 'Hey, I'm going away for a few days and I believe that this RFC/U is urgent enough and I need someone to draft it for me. X user has permission to do so.' versus blatant vandalism, personal attacks, and the like. How so, Dennis? You're going to the maximum extreme in this sort and I don't like it. It's common sense. When you tell a user to draft something for you, and they then go vandalize and try to blame it on you, that's a Competence is required problem, not a 'who can I pin my trollish antics on' problem. And yes, P123ct1, I did, I was referring to the general idea of it. Tutelary (talk) 21:47, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Extremes are used to demonstrate points. The main point is that no where at Misplaced Pages is another editor allowed to speak on behalf of another. Even with his permission, no policy authorizes it. Dennis - 2¢ 21:55, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

...no policy disallows it either. Tutelary (talk) 21:59, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, there is a rather slight precedent for having other individuals presenting information in another person's name, even to ArbCom. I did that once myself regarding an arb regarding an editor named Mattise or Mattisse or Matisse or something along those lines. Granted, I have no direct knowledge if it has ever been done any other time though. John Carter (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference is relaying information/text (something I've done myself) and making decisions without their ongoing knowledge for another user. That has no precedent that I know of, and I can't see the community remotely allowing that to happen. Dennis - 2¢ 22:09, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I was restraining myself in my comment. The behaviour is unethical. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you; your opposition to the idea (as opposed to simply not feeling like helping) was evident in your first sentence, and I agree with you. If you want someone to undertake something big for you, by all means you need to get the person's consent well beforehand, rather than asking at the last moment and assuming a "yes" answer. Nyttend (talk) 21:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I repeat, I was not asked, and the RfC/U itself was never discussed with me before it appeared either. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 21:20, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The RFC/U isn't set up appropriately. If not certified in 48 hrs it would be deleted. He list it as certified on his talk page but it doesn't seem to be so.It seems he feels it's active.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

It isn't a proper RfC/U. However, I'm not sure an Admin has the power to say "You are not to discuss Gregkaye's behaviour in any other Wikipeida forum." (for 24 hours). User:Nyttend, ], User:TenOfAllTrades, what do you all think? Can this be done under General sanctions? Dougweller (talk) 21:45, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh no do not get me wrong, I'm only mentioning that it wasn't set up properly. I'm just mentioning this so that if in 48 hours nothing changes in regards to it it can be deleted.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:49, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

In the immortal words of a fellow editor, I'm out of here! ~ P123ct1 (talk) 21:54, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

We could say it properly, e.g. "Your behavior has been so disruptive that you are not...forum, or I will block you". Of course it's easily overturnable by any other admin, not to mention commmunity consensus. Never got into general sanctions (whether requesting, enforcing, being subject to, etc.), so I can't speak to that. Haven't looked at the RFCU page, so I can't comment on the substantial bits. Nyttend (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

As Technophant say (s)he has gone way on a fairly long sabatical then as far as I can tell, there is no need to keep the ban in place as I only imposed it to reduce the tension between two editors. So I intend to lift the ban on both of the editors immediately. -- PBS (talk) 22:21, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I lifted the ban at 22:34, 9 November 2014 (diff) Technophant makes an edit at 22:52, 9 November 2014. -- PBS (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

And User:Kww has blocked him indefinitely. Dougweller (talk) 11:02, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

In all this time I have again been badmouthed above and have not been able to comment because of the ban. The whole thing is horribly wrong. Misrepresentations and an apparently partisan application of Misplaced Pages's rules by Technophant and other logins have been the trend and their detrimental effect is still deeply embedded in a related trail of edits. I think that a suitable penalty for infringements like sock-puppetry should be the creation of back edits through the offending editors history. Otherwise the sock puppeteer wins and can just get a new login at a later date. Reading above I wouldn't be surprised if this was partly what was planned.

On many occasions I have found Technophant's interventions to be of a greatly disturbing and troubling nature and, perhaps, this is epitomised by final content of a thread I started entitled: #Genuine_concern. In relation to the long span of this ongoing dispute I would like to commend the conduct of P123ct1 who has, in everything I have seen, acted in an exemplary way making great efforts to facilitate peace. These are very evident both on my talk page and elsewhere. This has been a three character Wikidrama which P123ct1 has continually tried to defuse. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

As the sanctions state "or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." I retract any suggestion that PBS was wrong to ban Technophant from discussing someone. Sorry about that! Dougweller (talk) 13:47, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Appeal of broadly construed three month topic ban

On the 8th of October I was topic banned for three months from Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and broadly related pages by the user PBS for being "disruptive"; the two justifying diffs were supplied as this and this. Note that the latter entry appears to have a refactoring of another's comments but that was dealt with and recognized later as a mistake. As evidenced by PBS's template and subsequent text he deemed that my disruption was created by not acknowledging or abiding by a unilateral moratorium on a topical discussion he suggested on Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Subsequent to the objection of myself and several other involved third parties, as evidenced across talk pages, PBS stated that my three month topic ban was timed to coincide with his concocted moratorium which he deemed was to last until "the New Year".

I understand how ArbCom rulings work. I understand what disruptive editing looks like. I even try to consciously remind myself not to be melodramatic in the face of perceived slights or injustices. Nonetheless, this topic ban is not only undue in it's very inception but the length is arbitrary, unjust, and far outside the normal parameters associated with this ArbCom ruling. In fact, the length of this already unjustified topic ban seems to be entirely the product of an arbitrary timeline for a topical discussion PBS unilaterally decided upon instead of any logic based upon my actions here or my overall editing history.

My basic point remains unchanged, that the name of the Islamic State is dynamic and debatable and should be discussed by interested editors. That PBS would interject his own whims upon a non-pointy discussion (without any actual main space article changes) and then topic ban a user in good standing for not "abiding by" what was put forward as a "suggested moratorium" is quite outside the normal prerogatives we give to our admins. I would ask for a total rescinding of the topic ban without any prejudice. The ban is unjust and the underlying points of the discussion I was engaged in are perfectly legitimate in light of not only our naming conventions but the application of core policy. GraniteSand (talk) 05:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like an odd ban to me. The admin placed a moratorium on name changes for ISIL, which, I think, shouldn't be done. (consensus is what make or breaks change , not by admin fiat ), and the two posts he pointed to were not disruptive, nor incivil. It was normal conversation on the page regarding the name. I'd say that ban needs to be shot down, and the admin needs to be , at the very least, counseled that he cannot rule by fiat the way he's attempting to do on that page. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I initially suggested a moratorium when closing the RM on the page (Revision as of 19:12, 3 October 2014). When that was ignored, I posted a more explicit message (Revision as of 18:10, 7 October 2014) Warning that it was no longer a suggestion and was now a warning by an uninvolved administrator under the general sanctions that apply to that talk page.

Revisions to User talk:GraniteSand

• Revision as of 19:11, 7 October 2014 (diff) — Sanctions notification specifically mentioning new sections initiated by GraniteSand since the last RM. Includes the line "If you have any questions about this post then feel free to ask me."
• Revision as of 22:20, 7 October 2014 (diff) GraniteSand removes Sanctions notification (prof or reading).
• Revision as of 10:28, 8 October 2014 (diff) Topic Ban
• Revision as of 23:47, 8 October 2014 (diff) In response to a posting by GraniteSand on my talk page Revision as of 21:22, 8 October 2014 (diff). This explanation includes the diffs mentioned above by GraniteSand note that the Rabbit line is incidental, one has to look at the bottom of the diff to see its relevance to this topic ban.

The reason for the ban is fundamentally a case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. As I outline in the last bulleted diff presented I had been quite clear on this issue, but the two edits made by GraniteSand to the article talk page (see initial diff 1 and diff 2) shows that GraniteSand had either not understood, or was wilfully ignoring my disruptive posting. GraniteSand made no attempt to ask me for clarification either on the talk page (where GraniteSand made the two postings below my "moritorium/disruptive" statement) or on my talk page.

The length of the moratorium is three months this is customarily recognised as the minimum time between RMs whenthe participants of an RM have discussed the issue thoroughly--and with four RMs in the proceeding 2 months + a host of other sections on the talk page about moves had discussed the issue thoroughly and exhausted the RM process. The length of the topic ban on GraniteSand ties in with the next date that there will most probably be discussion on moving the page so that GraniteSand can participate in that discussion.

This is not a user account block or a general ban, GraniteSand still has literally millions of other pages to edit during the topic ban. -- PBS (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The sanctions don't say anywhere that a discussion changing or move the page to a different name ( no comment on whether or not the name suggested has merit) is part of them. Once again, admins cannot rule by fiat. There's literally only ONE time that anything that even remotely looking like a fiat can be used, and that's WP:OFFICE actions, and that's rarely ever done. So, by admission you:

• Made a suggestion, that no one took you up on
• Made that suggestion a rule. With nothing else except your status as an admin to back it up
• Then proceeded to block someone for not being incvil, but rather for violating the rule you added in
  
  

That's an bad block and it needs to be reverted. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 13:33, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to rehash the debate PBS wasn't involved in (until he suspended it) but here's some background on my edits in response to new and more explicit accusations of disruptive editing. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is predicated on the assumption that the parameters of the discussion and the accompanying justification have mostly not changed, that you're just beating a dead horse. When it comes to naming conventions surrounding the Islamic State, there is an active and robust discussion going on in academic and journalistic circles. In the days leading up to my topic ban there had been an empirical shift in what these independent reliable sources had to say on the topic, as I demonstrated on the discussion page by compiling a list of entirely new sources on the topic, some less than a day old at the time. Additionally, most naming convention discussions had taken place prior to ISIS changing their name to Islamic State and had therefor largely been a matter of semantics between ISIS and ISIL and not a discussion on whether the new IS was preferred over the previously settled upon ISIL. This is all to say that I was bringing new sources to an active topic and advocating my interpretation of those sources. That is nothing to be discouraged, much less topic banned for, and is not a case of disruptive behavior, even if some editors didn't like it or disagreed with my interpretation. GraniteSand (talk) 23:03, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The user refused to consider consensus and was very combative against PBS and other involved users. He seemed to be looking for a fight. Legacypac (talk) 05:01, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This appeal has now gone unaddressed for long enough that I've had to unarchive it. GraniteSand (talk) 07:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

User:KoshVorlon, you say "The sanctions don't say anywhere that a discussion changing or move the page to a different name ( no comment on whether or not the name suggested has merit) is part of them" - no of course they don't, they were never meant to be that specific. They are about behaviour, in this case behaviour in that discussion. Dougweller (talk) 11:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller That sentance (mine ) could have been written better, but yes, you're correct. General Sanctions, as well as Discretionary Sanctions are meant to be specific per General Sanction guidelines. They state:

When general sanctions are employed, they are specifically detailed instructions by which community consensus or Arbcom motion has empowered administrators to act single-handedly to sanction editors who are not complying with general behavioral or editorial guidelines and policies. .

In this case, a suggestion was made that was not instituted as General Sanctions of any kind, it was merely a suggestion. A suggestion can be taken or not, with no penalty to refusing. In this case, the suggestion was not taken, and the user was blocked for it. It looks, to me, like the admin overstepped his bounds, and I still believe the ban needs to be reversed. Not to be a dick or anything, but if the sanction had already been in place, and then violated, Granite Sand would have no leg to stand on, but that didn't happen, again, he didn't take a suggestion given to him, that's all. Reverse the topic ban and do what's right. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:37, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, User:KoshVorlon, take a look at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions#Active sanctions and tell me how this sanction is basically any different, and what details instructions are lacking in it that are present one of our most frequently violated sanctions, those on Israeli-Palestine articles. That sanction says "Any uninvolved administrator may impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process (full text)." The Syrian civil war sanction says (Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant "Any uninvolved administrator may, at his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." Identical because this sanction is meant to mimic ARBPIA sanctions. I don't know what you mean by "if the sanction had been in place". Dougweller (talk) 16:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Certainly Dougweller. Yes, I agree with you that there are indeed sanctions on this page, and yes they mirror ARBPIA, but none of those restrictions show anything about starting a discussion, they state the article is under 1RR except for obvious vandalism. Yes, Granite sand was warned about those same sanctions here however, please note , again that those sanctions do not include starting new discussions about changing the name. That was a suggestion made by the blocking admin [here , and note this was a suggestion not a sanction, just a suggestion that was in no way covered by discretionary sanctions at all. After this suggestion was made, it was not accepted ( note the discussions below concerning changing the name ).

Now, we all can make suggestions, if they're not accepted, it's pretty well known that it's poor form to try to force that change through. Or said another way, if I had been the one to post the suggestion "Hey let's not talk about renaming ISIL again until next year" and no one took me up on it, and I decided to take action by deleting anything that mentioned such a rename and pointed back to that suggestion, I'd be in some hot water, and it would be well deserved. That's just what this admin did. His suggestion wasn't taken, consensus went against him, so he decided to try to force it through | here as "Discretionary Sanctions", but note, that Discretionary sanctions don't cover this, it's not a blank check for the admin to push his way through and ignore consensus, which is just what he did.

Unban him, it's just that simple. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC) _{yeah, I know, TL/DR, sorry about that ! KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:55, 26 October 2014 (UTC)}

User:KoshVorlon - Sorry, you're still confused. Sanctions and 1RR are separate things. The sanctions have no specific restrictions, they are about behavior:"if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". Behavior can be in article space, on the article's talk page, or in fact elsewhere if it concerns the subject covered by the sanction. The fact that it involved a move discussion is immaterial. To repeat myself, they cover any discussion relevant to the sanctions. Dougweller (talk) 21:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

• I think the sanctions are pretty clear: "Sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length, bans from editing any page or set of pages within the scope of these sanctions, bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics, restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. RGloucester — ☎ 02:16, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

To reiterate, my appeal has nothing to do with the scope of an uninvolved administrator's prerogative in using discretionary sanctions in the instance of what is perceived as disruptive behavior. My appeal is based on the facts and circumstances of PBS's judgment in invoking that prerogative in this particular instance. I maintain that my behavior was not disruptive, that PBS lacked the consensus he asserted here, that his behavior was unwise and unilateral, that the scope of my editing doesn't warrant a topical ban, and that the term of my topic ban is far outside the normal parameters of such bans. I'm disturbed that no administrator has yet taken this up. I appreciate Dougweller's and RGloucester's discussions on the finer points of ArbCom rulings but they're not relevant to my appeal. Also, RGlouceseter is rather involved in the subject at hand. GraniteSand (talk) 17:27, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

@GraniteSand: Well, I what I meant by the bolding of that piece of text was that you should focus your argument on whether PBS's use of these measures was "reasonably necessary". He doesn't need "consensus", because community sanctions give him power as an uninvolved administrator to unilaterally take "any measures reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project". The question here is not whether PBS had the authority to do what he did, but whether it was "reasonable". You'll have a much more effective argument if you take-up that angle. Why do you think it was "unreasonable" for him to issue the moratorium? Following that, why do you think it was "unreasonable" for him to impose a three month topic ban? Answer these two questions, and you'll be in better shape. RGloucester — ☎ 17:39, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Not consensus on the application of the topic ban but an assertion that there was a universal agreement other than myself on his "moratorium on discussion", which was not the case. I thought he made the assertion here but, upon review, he did not. I'll try to find the diff but the larger issue of my appeal doesn't hinge on the assertion of consensus for the moratorium because it clearly doesn't exist anyway, as has already been demonstrated. Nobody asked for it and when he "suggested it" nobody took him up on it. I think that I've already made clear that my edits were not disruptive and that others on the article talk page were not only involved in discussing my position in a constructive manner but then went on to say that they found PBS's unsolicited moratorium unnecessary and my topic ban excessive and inappropriate. It would appear that instead of PBS issuing a topic ban to prevent the disruption of the project he issued a moratorium on discussion and then banned me simply because he had decided what he thought was the right answer to the topic at hand and was tired of seeing it come up, regardless of changes in the form and content of reliable sources on the subject. I would also think that my appeal inherently infers PBS demonstrated unreasonable behavior. Bringing up brand new reliable sources making assertions about a dynamic topic of frequent and substantive discussion and talking about how our policies relate to what those sources say is not disruptive. Then, aside from the application of the ban, the length is an unreasonable outlier all on its own. The other topical bans issued under this set of sanctions last for days not months. His topic ban lasts for the length of his unsolicited and ill-formed moratorium when topical bans should be reflective of the scope and severity of the "disruptive" behavior. Regardless, there should have been a substantive response made to this appeal by uninvovled admins some time ago. I know there is a reasonable hesitancy to overturn other admins decisions but this seems rather clear cut to me. After all, I know most admins aren't afraid of saying "no" if they truly feel that's the right answer. GraniteSand (talk) 19:38, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I suppose the question is, then, do you plan to abide by the moratorium in the event that your topic ban is lifted? Or, on the other hand, do you plan to challenge the moratorium as well? RGloucester — ☎ 20:03, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that the moratorium itself is unreasonable, which is why I asked for this decision to be overturned "without prejudice". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear; it's rather wikilawyer-ish and an old bad habit of mine. Were the topic to be totally stale, which is to say the subject wasn't fluid and the body of reliable sources not changing, then community consensus alone would be enough to simply refer new queries to previous discussions, making a moratorium superfluous. The reality, though, is the opposite, which makes the moratorium unwise and stifling to the nature of the project. How can we disallow the discussion of a relevant topic in a fast changing subject? It's antithetical to what we do here. Now, of course, if my appeal is overturned and the unilateral moratorium not then I won't disregard it, that would be belligerent and unwise. The moratorium should be overturned, though, and I'll pursue it as an independent topic of discussion, here or elsewhere. GraniteSand (talk) 20:14, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I think it is best to do the following. Firstly, separate the matter of your topic ban and the moratorium. Secondly, agree to abide by the moratorium until it is overturned or expires in return for the lifting of the topic ban. Thirdly, if you'd still like to continue your suit to appeal the moratorium, open a new thread at this noticeboard after the topic ban has been lifted. I believe that this is the best way forward. If you are willing to follow this route, I will support lifting topic ban. This thread here should only deal with the matter of your topic ban. RGloucester — ☎ 20:20, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that's entirely reasonable. GraniteSand (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

@PBS: – As you were the sanctioning administrator, would you consider lifting the topic ban in line with the procedure I outlined above? I think this is a good compromise. First of all, it will confirm whether the moratorium is justified in a new thread, and secondly, it will allow for that moratorium to be abided by in the mean-time. It strikes me as being better to try and resolve these disputes, rather than to let them languish, and I do believe that GraniteSand has no particular ill-intent that is so worthy of a three month topic ban. RGloucester — ☎ 22:15, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

All those sections were on the talk page at the time I imposed the moratorium. It has long been accepted practice for RM processes to draw a line under move discussions, for a time between discussions, to stop endless discussion.

GraniteSand has written in this section:

1. "My basic point remains unchanged, that the name of the Islamic State is dynamic and debatable and should be discussed by interested editors."
2. "This is all to say that I was bringing new sources to an active topic and advocating my interpretation of those sources"
3. "The moratorium should be overturned, though, and I'll pursue it as an independent topic of discussion, here or elsewhere".

This is a continuation of the behaviour for which GraniteSand's topic ban was imposed.

It is quite common administrators who close RMs to put time limits on when the next one can be held, so my actions were not unusual; and limits on RMs can also be found applied by administrators under various sanctions (eg Talk:Liancourt Rocks).

RGloucester you write "I think this is a good compromise" is a rhetoric construct, as it implies that there is a compromise to he had and that this is a good one (it also implies that you are a neutral actor -- you are not "No. Please stop. There is no need to be constantly debating the title. Leave it well alone. We've had enough move requests already." written by you directly before my moratorium statement ). It is also no compromise at all because it allows GraniteSand to fill the talk page with debates about the moratorium and "that it should be overturned because..." Something GraniteSand has made clear (s)he will do in this section.

Instead here is an alternative proposal: that there will be an RfC with a simple statement "It is proposed the moratorium of page moves should be lifted immediately" (similar to Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Propose moratorium on pagemove discussion -- the difference being that was proposing to create one this is to lift it); and if there is a consensus that the moratorium should be lifted the topic ban on GraniteSand will also end, otherwise the topic ban stays in place until the moratorium ends. -- PBS (talk) 12:27, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

PBS, there is no reason to attack me. You're well aware that I support the moratorium, as evidenced by comments. I never said otherwise. However, I do not support the topic ban. I believe these matters are separate. GraniteSand has agreed to abide by the moratorium until it is overturned or expires. That means he won't be "filling the talk page with debates about the moratorium", because, as I said, he would pursue an overturn of the moratorium in a new thread here at WP:AN, as is appropriate for review of administrative actions. The idea that his topic ban will only end if the moratorium ends is draconian, to say the least. RGloucester — ☎ 14:01, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

So, by your post above, 6 users asked for a move discussion. You state that this occured after you suggested that no move occur until next year. It appears consensus was against you. I understand you're aggravated, however, by calling your suggestion and discretionary sanction, you've given the appearance of ignoring consensus and forcing your will in. Therefore, in a show of good will, I suggest you drop the ban. As my contribution history shows, I haven't posted on that page at all, and have no stake in whatever name consensus decides, so it's not like I have a side I'm on here (as far as naming goes ). KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:51, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

PBS has seemed to have gone through a daily edit cycle without responding to either KoshVorlon or RGloucester. While I very much appreciate the input of admins and editors so far, an entire week has gone by and no uninvoloved admin has rendered a judgement or opinion here. This is ridiculous. Therefor I'm going to take the rather unorthodox step of reaching out and requesting the input of three admins whose opinions and judgement I greatly respect, even though I've often found myself in disagreement with them at various points. These editors are @DGG:, @Acalamari: and @BrownHairedGirl:. This could very much be viewed as canvassing but all three are of independent mind and I don't expect any particular result. At this point any result would be adequate, even if it's "no". I just want some resolution here so I can move on to the next step, one way or another. GraniteSand (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I did not respond to KoshVorlon because the time stamps on my post do not support the assertion. I did not respond to RGloucester because I think that I have already answered the points RGloucester raised. I have started an RfC on the Moratorium on the talk page of the article (See here) -- PBS (talk) 14:07, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

• I was asked for an opinion. As I see it. the disruption is the continued focus on the pagename of the article. Such repeated discussions are in my opinion not conducive to editing articles, which is what an encyclopedia should be doing. I support unblock if he is willing to accept not discussing renaming of this article anywhere on WP until the end of the moratorium, and not bringing an RfC on the matter or encouraging one. (If on is brought by someone else in good faith, I think one brief comment there would be allowable, but I very strongly advise that nobody open such a RfC--it is counterproductive to the concept of the moratorium.) I think the moratorium was a very good idea. I would in fact be very much in favor of a considerably longer one, except that the actual situation in the RW is itself unstable. DGG ( talk ) 18:13, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

@DGG:, as I said before, I'll abide by the moratorium until it is lifted. It seems like PBS has decided to start an RfC. I'm assuming that nobody has a problem with me participating there in a concise manner. As far as lifting my topic ban, should another uninvoled editor agree in addition to you would you be comfortable making an affirmative action there? I know that both you can RGloucester have made conditional statements of support there but RGloucester is involved and I wouldn't feel good about it without the input of one more admin. GraniteSand (talk) 22:53, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

You cannot participate in the RfC whilst topic-banned. That would lead to a block. RGloucester — ☎ 23:02, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Which is why, after two admins the only admin to participate so far has conditionally supported the lifting of my ban, I suspect @PBS: has put the cart before the horse and stared the RfC now. I would guess he sees the potential for my topic ban being lifted so he's trying to have this done without my participation. Unless I'm wrong, and he, as the blocking admin, wouldn't mind my participation there. GraniteSand (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

this is of course an absurd situation: this sort of circular dilemma is a violation of one of our basic principles, NOT BURO. I am not familiar with the working of arb enforcement & how to word things there. Will someone who is please enter the appropriate modification there. Enough is enough. (I can say from everything I've seen here that I will very strongly support continuing the moratorium.) DGG ( talk ) 04:34, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I initiated the RfC on the moratorium, to counter the the argument presented here that is is an arbitrary action with no support. I would prefer to unilaterally lift the sanctions on GraniteSand, but GraniteSand you have to give a clear indication that you will not only follow DGG's requirement " is willing to accept not discussing renaming of this article anywhere on WP until the end of the moratorium, and not bringing an RfC on the matter or encouraging one." but in addition agree not to discuss the Moratorium anywhere on WP (or participate in the current RfC on the Moratorium -- If you wish to have your opposition to the moratorium noted in the Open RfC I will do that for you). -- PBS (talk) 11:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

{@PBS: The alternative option, PBS, is to change the topic ban. You can very easily narrow it to "discussing changes to the title of the ISIL article for xxxxx", as opposed banning him from ISIL all together. RGloucester — ☎ 12:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Lifting my topic ban while insisting that I not participate in the only subject I was an active in the topic isn't lifting the topic ban at all. You've started an RfC on your unsolicited moratorium, poorly advertised it and then insisted that my dissenting voice not be allowed to participate in it, all to prove its broad support. That's ridiculous. Your RfC needs not just the dissenting voices that initially objected to it but a wider consensus from outside the article page which has become somewhat of an echo chamber on the issue between two or three editors. I fully agree to RGloucester's conditions and but you've already nullified DGG's terms by starting an RfC. GraniteSand (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Where else would you like the RfC advertised? -- PBS (talk) 14:32, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The bevy of previous editors who have brought up the topic should be advised and it should be advertised in relevant WikiProjects such as MILHIST, IRAQ, SYRIA, and TERRORISM. I'd also expand the RfC subject classification. GraniteSand (talk) 00:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I will not inform individual editors. I have added a heads up to the WT:MILHIST, WT:IRAQ, WT:SYRIA, and WT:TERRORISM. -- PBS (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• My view of it, for what it is worth, is that the topic ban was correctly added. There was a request to change the name, there was a consensus in opposition to changing the name, and GraniteSand continued to make edits changing the name and insisting on brining up the issue right away. That violates WP:CCC: "proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive." Given this was under discretionary sanctions PBS was free to institute the topic ban as an uninvolved admin. That said an exactly 3 month moratorium shouldn't be done without consensus (which the RfC seems to be providing from what I have seen of it so far). But GraniteSand was not waiting even close to a reasonable time before proposing to see of consensus had changed, and that's disruptive even without an explicit moratorium. That said I would support limiting the scope of the topic ban to "discussing changes to the title of the ISIL article" until the RfC for the moratorium closes and then for the length of any moratorium, outside of a single vote and a maximum 300 word reason in the RfC on the moratorium. --Obsidi (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Your view is worth a lot, thanks for taking the plunge and participating. Now, for what my two cents is worth, I'd like to point out that the consensus you sight was merely a snapshot. If there was a consensus to not reexamine naming conventions then the page wouldn't be seeing a flood of requests to do so. The consensus you're talking about consists of two, at best three, editors who are heavily involved in the article space. Not that I'd say it constitutes ownership but it's definitely some what of an echo chamber where those few editors quickly band together to shoot down new voices concerned about naming conventions. COncerns pop up, these couple of editors play off each other to shoot it down, rinse and repeat. It was for this reason which I wanted to put together a well advertised RfC on the subject, so as to establish an actual consensus, which I was topic banned for suggesting. Also consider that much of the "old history" used to justify this moratorium was based on the semantic argument between ISIL and ISIS, one that I agree has been resolved. My concerns are about the recent renaming of the group to Islamic State, which is only a few weeks old and has so has a much shorter history. I also introduced brand new sources on the topic which has only broken in the past two weeks, thereby demonstrating that what independent reliable sources had to say on the matter had shifted. GraniteSand (talk) 00:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

This appeal is now two weeks old and only one outside admin has weighed in. Come on, admins. GraniteSand (talk) 09:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Unarchived for a second time. GraniteSand (talk) 08:51, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I support the three-month ban based on the evidence presented to date. I also urge GraniteSand to closely read and follow RGloucester's advice of 20:20 on 27 October, which I think is more likely to be productive and get results of the kind GS wants than continuing to unarchive this discussion. Personally, I tend to think that this repeated unarchiving could on its own be seen as potentially problematic behavior, something along the lines of beating a dead horse or tendentious editing, and further efforts to continue in this line could lead to the sanctions being expanded or lengthened. John Carter (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

hack in progress?

Denim Demon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an admin delete this expired prod, I'm editing with my work computer and this page is somehow blocked with my work filter. Thanks Secret 20:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The Honest Company

I have recreated The Honest Company and want to make sure that it seems to be sufficient, given that a prior version was deleted less than 30 days ago.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) It was speedied under A7. Tony's current version at least passes that low bar. Ivanvector (talk) 22:05, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

No problems that I see. The entire pre-A7 contents, written by User:Nmarte, were The Honest Company is an American company that sells eco friendly diapers and a natural line of bath, skincare, home cleaning, and organic nutritional supplement products. The Santa Monica, California based company was established in 2012 and currently remains privately held. Founders include Jessica Alba, Brian Lee, Christopher Gavigan, and Sean Kane. You've demonstrated secondary source coverage, including (significantly) something from almost half a world away from the subject of the article. Completely different and entirely free of A7-worthy problems. Nyttend (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I found this useful article, but the dogs won't quit bugging me long enough to turn it into proper prose. Dennis - 2¢ 00:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Closure review: America: Imagine the World Without Her

This is a request to review the close at Talk:America: Imagine the World Without Her to determine whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. I discussed this with the closer Here. I questioned the close by talking about a lack of consensus to support closing the Rfc by agreement and told him/her the closing should be inconclusive. According to WP:RFC/U:

"However, where a summary is disputed, all participants must agree at the RfC/U talk page on which summary to use. This is because in the absence of a clear consensus one way or another, writing the closer's own view of the dispute as the summary/close has been considered controversial in the past. In case a wording has not been agreed upon, the RfC/U should be closed as if it was being closed due to inactivity (or closed due to other dispute resolution)."

There was no discussion of a summary, resolution, or clear consensus that "all participants" agreed to. According to WP policy, the close should have been due to inactivity or closed due to other dispute resolution, certainly not by agreement. I understand that consensus does not require unanimity, however, all opposed arguments, especially when backed by WP policy, need to be addressed and considered. I explained this to the closer and he/she tried to disregard my arguments as being irrelevant to the scope of the RFC. When I proved that the RFC included determining whether a source could be used within a particular article and that my argument was relevant, the closer offered a new justification of his/her close by using majority opinion. Majority opinion does not determine consensus and does not override WP policy least the policy itself gets changed. When I explained that simply going with majority opinion and ignoring policy based arguments was disallowed, the closer ceased showing interest in discussing it further or trying to substantiate the close with a justification that wasn't against WP policy. Seeing as there is no policy based justification for the close, I suggest that the close be changed to "due to inactivity" or moved to a different dispute resolution forum that addresses the aspect of appropriate uses of questionable sources, and/or whether a source is questionable or not.Scoobydunk (talk) 15:50, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The policy cited by the OP has to do with closure of a user conduct RFC, which doesn't appear to be applicable. The RFC was a article content RFC, which has different and less rigid closing guidelines. If the OP thinks that the close was improper, the venue for considering that is WP:AN. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:29, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's not get bureaucratic about going to WP:AN.--v/r - TP 17:55, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with TParis, that the bureaucracy shouldn't be a big issue. However, if editors are unwilling to examine this here, then I'll relist this on the other AN. Regarding RFC/U, I was mistaken in citing it, however my objection is still justified by WP guidelines regarding closing and the analysis of consensus. There is no clear consensus and the closer even admitted to ignoring policy based arguments which is against article content RFC guidelines for closing/moving discussions. There are also other matters like forum shopping that I didn't discuss with closer, but don't think it's necessary since there wasn't a consensus to begin with.Scoobydunk (talk) 18:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't really an RFC. Looking back in history when it was open , it wasn't transcluded anywhere other than that page, so you never saw ANY input from anyone that didn't come to that page. That is fine for a discussion, but you don't get any "uninvolved" opinions that way. I guess you can call it "RFC", but really it is just a local discussion. I also note that you can go to WP:RSN to get better service when it comes to determining if a source is reliable or not. Not exactly what you are asking for, just saying that when you are looking for "objective opinions", you pretty much have to ask outside the circle of editors that are arguing over it. Dennis - 2¢ 23:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I didn't make the RFC. The only thing I'm asking for is that it's closure gets reviewed and hopefully overturned. If you and other editors feel that it doesn't even suffice as an RFC because it didn't seek external input, then that's fine with me.Scoobydunk (talk) 16:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Moved from WP:ANI and retitled to "Closure review: America: Imagine the World Without Her". Cunard (talk) 03:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

This wasn't an RFC. That said it still falls under "other closures" on WP:Closing discussions. From my view of looking at the arguments, from a policy perspective the closure seems appropriate. Could have been more detailed, but, with proper attribution, it seems a fairly straightforward understanding of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and WP:SELFSOURCE. Given you need to show the closure to be unreasonable understanding of consensus and that the closure wont be challenged "if the poll was close or even favored an outcome opposite the closure, if it was made on the basis of policy." It doesn't seem like the closure should be reversed to me. --Obsidi (talk) 23:00, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't a consensus. No consensus was presented or agreed upon by the editors involved. On top of that, valid policy based arguments were completely ignored. Sorry, but WP:AttributePOV does not override WP:QS which specifically states that questionable and self published sources should only be used on topics/articles about themselves. Even the WP:Selfsource, that you referenced, defines where self published sources can be used and that's in articles about themselves or topics about themselves. A film review, is a review about a third party and is not about author or source itself. That means on articles about different topics, they are not considered reliable. If WP:AttributePOV was enough to merit inclusion of opinions simply because they are quoted and attributed, then we'd could put facebook messages from young earth creationists alongside peer reviewed scholarly works. Sorry, but WP has clearly defined policies regarding reliability and questionable sources have very limited use on wikipedia. So the comments/opinions citing WP:AttributePOV for inclusion of questionable sources are actually against policy and not aligned with it. WP:AttributePOV is for sources already deemed reliable and says nothing about self published works and questionable sources being permitted in any article so long as they are properly attributed. We have multiple policies that strictly prohibit that.

Without revising the discussion here. The point is that the closure admitted to ignoring arguments after demonstrating a lack of understanding of the scope of the discussion. That means their rationale for closing is inherently flawed because they didn't understand the purpose of the discussion to begin with. Furthermore, when this was pointed out, they admitted to just siding with "majority opinion" which is also against WP policies regarding consensus. There was no consensus, valid policy based arguments were ignored while other arguments that violated WP policies were included, and that lead to an erroneous closure review.Scoobydunk (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• This is a review of the closing, not a second bite at the apple. With that in mind, after looking briefly at the merits, I would conclude that the close was within expectations (although a bit brief) and there is no obvious failure in process that forces us to overturn it. This doesn't mean it is "right", only that it is within procedural expectations. Every close is always "wrong" in someone's eyes, and the purpose of review isn't to judge the merits of the discussion, it is to weigh them only enough to determine if the close is reasonable, and that someone who is completely uninvolved could come to the same conclusion. That doesn't mean that everyone uninvolved MUST come to the same conclusion, only that the closing is reasonably within the range of "sane". On that point, it passes. Now, that said, it was only a local consensus, it was not a real RFC. You can go to WP:RSN or follow the instructions at WP:RFC to do a proper RFC, with the goal of getting opinions from people who aren't emotionally invested in the outcome of the discussion. That is always the best solution, as it will offer unbiased insights. If so compelled, I recommend doing so slowly with a neutral and balanced approach, without indicating your preference in the wording of the initial proposal. Dennis - 2¢ 18:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't even know how you guys can offer input without addressing the points/arguments put before you. When closing an argument the closer is suppose to ignore arguments that are against policy and is suppose to evaluate the arguments put forward by those involved. The closer did not do this and has admitted to this. He/she didn't understand the scope of the discussion, admitted to ignoring policy based arguments, and admitted to going with a simple majority which is not how consensus is determined and is also a violation of rules pertaining to consensus. So, no, it wasn't "within expectations" for multiple reasons. It's not simply a matter of "disagreeing" it's a matter of WP policy and allowing the use of questionable sources to make claims about third parties on articles/topics not about the source itself is against WP:QS and WP:Selfsource. Local RFCs are not allowed to change or ignore policy unless the policy is changed. Again, it is not "sane" to allow Ken Hamm's facebook quotes to stand along side peer reviewed scientific works about the age of the earth, and that's what the closure of this RFC does. It shows a lack of understanding of the relevant policies determining the appropriate use of questionable sources, ignored valid policy based arguments, and went with a simple majority instead of evaluating the merits of the arguments. That's not how closing is suppose to be done.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Possible compromised administrator account - User:Antandrus

After being around for 10 years, I now think that this admin account has been compromised. I'm sorry, but since yesterday, an IP wrote on somebody's talk page and reverted what seemed to be perfectly fine edits, it's a talk page anyway. He even replied to me as I posted a biting newcomers notice:

"He's been vandalizing, trolling, and evading a ban for almost nine years. I know perfectly well who I am dealing with, and so do the Chicago police. Thank you. Antandrus (talk) 01:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Here, I'll give you one link that shows the depth of the problem. There's lots of other ranges too. But he's become an IP-hopper on T-Mobile now. Antandrus (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)"

That link referred to a completely different user. Who must be unrelated to the edits I am talking about. He also said "You're banned - get lost" when blocking an IP. Can a CheckUser come in to see these IP's. In fact, how can IP users be banned under WP:BAN? How did he have any authority to ban someone, as an admin who is not part of ArbCom? Must be a compromised administrator account, check the contribs and you can see some evidence. DSCrowned 08:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Please do not template the regulars, and please do not make silly accusations at noticeboards, particularly when an explanation has been given. Making a fuss about WP:DENY reversions is a guaranteed way to encourage vandalism and long term abusers. Antandrus is one of Misplaced Pages's most respected admins, although I'm not sure where this report fits in at WP:OWB. Johnuniq (talk) 08:45, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Please see the "defacto ban" component of WP:BAN — perhaps it's a frequently-blocked user who's never been unblocked and who will apparently never be unblocked; such a person would be included as "banned" even without an Arbcom discussion. Bans apply to individual people, so yes, we can ban people who aren't using an account. If you have spare time, look at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Gundagai editors — we even had an arbitration case for an IP that just wouldn't stop being disruptive. Nyttend (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The longer you are an admin, the more of these kinds of users you get to know. We each have a few banned users we know so well that we can spot them from across the room. And yes, sometimes we are blunt when dealing with them, it gets old, we are human, we aren't obligated to act saccharine sweet to known banned users abusing the system. Antandrus' behavior, as indicated here, isn't out of character or expectations, so I am pretty confident he hasn't had his account pwned. Dennis - 2¢ 14:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. Thank you Dennis. I regularly revert and block this particular pest. For those with long memories, he has been called the 'George Reeves Person', and there's a deleted LTA page about him. He's a serial harasser and particularly vicious off-Wiki. I have, however, learned his real name and where he lives, should we need to take more serious action. It's been a couple years since I've received threats of physical harm from him. Antandrus (talk) 15:19, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Followup - death threats, etc.

Hi guys -- sorry to wake this thread up again, but I would like some advice. This person, who has been vandalizing, trolling, spamming, and issuing threats to anyone who opposes him, since December 2005, has issued an unambiguous death threat to me. I guess he didn't like the range blocks I laid down to shut down his latest spam-and-rant campaign. One significant problem is that there is no reliable way to get a message to him; he uses one-time-throwaway T-Mobile IPs now (ignore their geolocation: he's in Chicago, or very close, anyway). I am reporting all threats to law enforcement. I want him to know that I know his real name and his address (will not state it here) and I am not shy about giving it to the FBI, the Chicago and River Grove, Illinois police, and any other entity that might assist. If you have admin rights you can read the history of this guy here (note who deleted the page). I want to get the message to him, equally unambiguously. Has anyone had success contacting authorities in such a case? Feel free to contact me privately. Antandrus (talk) 01:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't hesitate to contact the FBI, tell them you are an admin on Misplaced Pages and file a formal complaint with the info you have. I'll email you.--MONGO 01:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Responding to threats of harm, which is allot harder to find than it should be. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:55, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Should requests for comment user conduct be abolished?

Please comment at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Do Away with RFC/U. Thank you, Oiyarbepsy (talk) 15:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Granada#Merger_proposal

Looking for an experienced editor or admin to assess consensus and close merge discussion as am unable to enter into a dialogue. --Bye for now (PTT) 16:21, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The original poster didn't attempt to enter into a dialogue. There was no consensus. The original poster proposed a merge, and promptly implemented it, and was reverted, and implemented it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The original poster proposed the merge, and implemented it, and move-warred to implement it again. The claim that there was no attempt at dialogue is literally true, in that the original poster made no attempt to engage in dialogue, but moved-warred to implement a controversial move. (The merge is probably correct, but did require dialogue and consensus.) Recommend a short-term block so that move can be undone while proposed merge is discussed. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Huh? There was no move at all; what are you talking about? There was a merger, involving a redirecting of the second page (Timeline of Granada into Granada), which Bye for now reinstated once. What we have here is a simple edit war in a very early stage, with both participants at 1R right now. The claim that Bye for now "made no attempt to engage in dialogue" is absurd – he proposed the merge, with all required notices, and then waited five days, during which no objections were raised. The poor conduct is on the other side: the other editor involved, M2545 (talk · contribs), reverted the merger with a pointer to "WP:CONSENSUS" and "WP:BRD", but in fact didn't point to any such consensus, nor to any attempt to establish such, nor did he make any contribution to the "D" part of "BRD". The failure to engage in dialogue is plainly on his side. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I do see now that five days did elapse. I don't see any discussion by either party. Was there a Request for Merge or a Request for Comments? Some method of Dispute Resolution should be used. Can this thread be closed with the issue taken either to moderated dispute resolution or an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It's a simple content disagreement that doesn't require outside intervention at this stage. If M2545 wishes to raise objections to the merger, they'll simply need to do so, i.e. actually state why they object to it; if and when that happens, the further path of dispute resolution can be considered. In the absence of any such reasoned statement, the issue is moot. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the comments. I created the Timeline of Granada article on 5 November 2014. The article as of 11 November 2014 at 9:28 was still at the stub stage, and not given a chance to develop before it was "merged" into the main Granada article. -- M2545 (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Also, on 6 November 2014 on the talk page I objected as follows: "Some events in a city's economic history may not be dramatic, but can be notable nonetheless. See Timeline of Paris for an example of a city timeline with lots of economic, political, cultural, etc. detail. Instead of simply deleting content, please use Template:Relevance-inline or similar tool. Thanks." -- M2545 (talk) 09:38, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Also, the editor Bye for now did not really "merge" timeline content into the Granada article (see revision comparison) but simply deleted it instead. -- M2545 (talk) 09:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The fact that there are many lists like this (see Category:City_timelines) does not seem to me to necessarily be a reason to keep this one. In fact it might even be seen as a reason to merge/delete some of the other ones. My reasons for removing things like "1910 - Cafe Futbol in business" were explained HERE but they were reverted anyway so I'm not sure of the relevance. As explained on the merger proposal: Anything I consider useful has been transferred to this article from the "Timeline of Granada" so that a redirect to this article can now be implemented. If other editors wish to transfer more information to the main Granada article then I don't see that being a problem as long as they can can justify it to other editors there (sourcing/notability/relevance etc). Anyway we now seem to be agreed, in principle at least, on the merge. --Bye for now (PTT) 10:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no agreement. Timelines complement prose articles. The deleted Granada timeline stub should be restored and given ample time to develop, with contributions from mulitple editors. -- M2545 (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Or maybe moved to a sandbox page until its creation can be justified? In particular, the Lead section needs to be addressed, as was brought up the the timeline's talk page. --Bye for now (PTT) 12:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that the newly-created page "Granada_chronology" should also be covered by this merger proposal. --Bye for now (PTT) 16:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

That page is going to need a history merge with Timeline of Granada. The resulting page should probably be moved to Draft: space so you guys can work on it. Ivanvector (talk) 16:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me - though it will need the agreement of M2545 of course. --Bye for now (PTT) 16:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, moving to Draft: should be open to discussion, but since Granada chronology appears to be copy-pasted from an old revision of Timeline of Granada, they have to be history-merged, to satisfy attribution requirements. An admin will need to do that, I don't have the tools. Ivanvector (talk) 20:59, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Could someone advise, please, on what happens next? Will an admin now make a decision as to whether or not the two list articles Granada_chronology and Timeline of Granada are to be redirected to Granada#History? --Bye for now (PTT) 17:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Hm, I was just going to tag this for history merging, because I forgot that we could do that. Duh. But I see that the new page has now also been redirected (creating a double redirect). @M2545: What is your goal here? Are you abandoning the timeline idea, or do you (and/or Bye for now) want to work on it?

What I'm thinking is, after the histories are merged (important first step), the page can be moved to, say, Draft:Timeline of Granada, and you (both if you're interested) can build it out until it's ready to be moved back to the mainspace. Or submit it through AfC if you prefer, maybe that's not a bad idea. Or, if you're planning on abandoning it, then please tag Granada chronology for G6 or G7 deletion (admins' call) to solve the history split problem. Ivanvector (talk) 22:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ivanvector and others, for your attention to this matter. Obviously I think Misplaced Pages would benefit from a Timeline of Granada article, but am reluctant to continue building it given Bye for now's unhelpful and destructive edits in the past week. I would rather spend precious time and effort working on content that will not be deleted. -- M2545 (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a general consensus that these "timeline" historic events lists are a beneficial addition to the encyclopedia, and it looks to me like you're both generally agreed that it can be built out in Draft: space. I think any disagreements here can be chalked up to good-faith misunderstanding, but if I'm wrong about that, best to say now. I interpret that Bye for now has no opposition to building out the list in Draft: space in anticipation of it eventually being moved to mainspace to complement the Granada article, rather than simply being merged into it, based on the discussion above. Am I wrong about that? Ivanvector (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Tools down again/still

Who runs tools.wmflabs.org? When will they fix it? Sometimes it works, sometimes it does nothing at all, sometimes it produces a screen where everyone has zero edits. Is this incompetence? Does someone keep breaking something? Drmies (talk) 00:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There's a thread on this topic at WP:VPT: see Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#So... -- Diannaa (talk) 04:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Userpage being vandalized continually

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but my userpage is being vandalized by socks. Apparently, I (legitimately) reverted this person's edit while I was thoughtlessly machine-gunning vandals with Huggle, and s/he got angry, started vandalizing my userpage, and created a sock farm to continue doing it. I requested protection of my userpage at RfPP, but I've received no reply. I'd like to request that any admin passing by semi-protect my userpage and block the accounts belonging to this person. If you want more detail, this page history speaks for itself. Thanks, --Biblioworm 01:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done GB fan 01:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. --Biblioworm 03:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

SPI backlog

Hi, if there are any CheckUsers out there, SPI is backlogged. Some reports have been sitting for 2+ weeks. Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

3RR violation by user 37.53.192.157 on World Chess Championship 2014

Reverts #1, #2, #3 and #4. Note that #4 occurred after user 37.53.192.157 was duly given a 3RR warning. This edit warring prevents other editors from being able to see the two versions so that they can reach a consensus on the talk page.

Please note that 37.53.192.157 has only been editing since today, yet this user appears to be a highly experienced editor. On the article's talk page, I have asked him to properly log in to avoid the appearance of sock-puppetry.

Please let me know if you need any additional information. Thanks. --Art Smart /Heart 17:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• User ArtSmart already violated 3RR rule two times today. Five his reverts: He must be blocked because he added unneeded nbsp into the article. Note, no any consensus in favor of his source code. No such format in any chess articles (2012, 2013,...). I only removed unneeded "nbsp". It was unreadable source code with that nbsp. 37.53.192.157 (talk) 17:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• I ceased reverting once I was duly warned. 37.53.192.157 continued reverting after he was duly warned. His reverts have prevented other editors from seeing both versions so that a consensus could be reached on the talk page. I don't care that much which version is adopted. I only care that other editors get a chance to reach a consensus. 37.53.192.157's edit warring continues to prevent that consensus from being reached. I have also asked him to log in properly, since 37.53.192.157 has been editing only since today. This gives the appearance of sock-puppetry. --Art Smart /Heart 18:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• User ArtSmart can use sandbox in his namespace to show his own version to reach the new consensus. Now consensus in all chess articles to show moves without nbsp option. 37.53.192.157 (talk) 18:15, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• That last statement is false, as can be seen here, which is linked from within the referenced article World Chess Championship 2014. You can see that no chess moves are broken across two lines. But that fact is irrelevant to 37.53.192.157's 3RR violations. No action has been taken from this noticeboard to enforce the 3RR against 37.53.192.157, who not only continued edit warring even after I repeatedly requested that he take our dispute to the talk page, but also continued edit warring even after he was duly warned of his 3RR violations. Because of that inaction from this noticeboard and its lack of enforcement of the 3RR, I no longer wish to waste my valuable time and effort to give the referenced article a more professional appearance by eliminating awkward line breaks. More importantly, I am also loathe to make any improvements to the referenced article, out of fear that 37.53.192.157 will revert my edits purely out of spite. If he can so flagrantly violate the 3RR with impunity, then no one is safe from his vandalism, least of all me. He has successfully bullied me out of further editing. --Art Smart /Heart 08:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• To admins. Please, give a mark to this edit by ArtSmart. I think he must be blocked for this edit violated WP:ETIQ. 37.53.192.157 (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• NOT AN ADMIN: May I ask why this was brought here instead of WP:3RN? The latter would seem like the more appropriate place for resolution. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate notice

If any administrators uninvolved in the Gamergate matter are interested in helping enforce the general sanctions that exist for such pages, please keep an eye of this page, where users may request enforcement. Thanks. RGloucester — ☎ 21:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, please, we can use all the help we can get over there.. Dreadstar ☥ 01:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There is a request there now. It would be nice if someone could pop in and deal with it. RGloucester — ☎ 17:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Please add a American English Editnotice to Pediatrics

Can an admin add the American English Editnotice to the Pediatrics page? There have been consistent problems with people adding British English and some debate about it on the talk page. Thanks! EoRdE6 (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

 Done. JohnCD (talk) 21:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

ANI abuse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please help me. I am at my wits end. I make a report at ANI. I want to see it reviewed. Others report the same editor at ANI. Instead of reviewing the report, I have admins and Gamersgate minutae drawing and drawing and drawing off me, not because I am going around breaking the rules, but because they are getting entertainment out of me. They are bullying me. The report, the diffs of the editor, have not been discussed at all and the thread is now four pages long in my browser. Rather than review the diffs, I am being told by an admin that they are going to block me for WikiHounding, for having the gall to continue to post in a single thread and to make that thread about an editor who I have encountered 4 or maybe 5 times in as many months and literally pursued me to harass me.

I need help. I am not getting it from ANI. The bullying is making mew feel sick. I do not want to interact with anyu of the contributors again. But I cannot let them control the site contrary to its goals and purpose. I mean, please someone uninvolved help me where is the best place for this to go? I do not lick up to a deck of admins to shield me. I am me, all alone. I am not very important, but I have been wronged repeatedly by a prolific wrong doer. That puts a duty on me to report. I need help. I am only being attacked on ANI. ~ R.T.G 12:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Really it's desperate. I feel ill. I am not trying to do anything wrong. Nobody is trying to make me change or understand. They are just attacking me. It's horrible. ~ R.T.G 12:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If you feel that bad, close this window, switch off and walk away from your computer, and go do something else in real life for a few days. This is only a website, disputes here are really not that important in the scheme of things, and this is nowhere near "desperate" compared to what happens out there in the real world. (I say that with no knowledge of the dispute and no judgment at all on any party - I just think it's sensible advice and might help you see things in proper perspective). Best wishes, Neatsfoot (talk) 14:02, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Echoing Neatsfoot - the solution here is dead bloody simple. Walk away. There are millions of other articles to work on, if you are so inclined, and the vast majority of them do not involve interaction with Ryulong. The proposed interaction ban isn't an indictment on your actions, or theirs - it's an acknowledgement that whenever you two interact, drama ensues. Life is too goddamn short to waste on people who get you as upset as you describe. Take a deep breath, have a beer, and find something else to do. I guarantee it - you'll be much happier. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Thirding what Neatsfoot and Ultraexactzz wrote. Walk away, turn off your computer, do something else that you enjoy and forget about Misplaced Pages for a few weeks. Come back after you have put everything in a perspective and work on something else. Pursuing justice on Misplaced Pages will only end in tears.- MrX 14:42, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Dark triad ~ R.T.G 16:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Fourthing what the others have said. This WP:FORUMSHOPPING isn't going to get you anywhere. Misplaced Pages operates on community consensus. If that is making you ill stepping away is the best answer. I assume it is now a tetrad. But we are giving this advice in good faith. MarnetteD|Talk 16:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I apologize that your experience here has been like this - however, perhaps as others said a small wikibreak could help you. Take some time off, let us handle the rest, and come back when you're feeling a bit better. Perhaps the time away and cooling off period for you and the user you have a dispute with could mend things and each of you can go onto different areas of the project. Forcefully bringing up a subject or forumshopping as Marnette said above is frowned upon, and the roles can be reversed whereas you're the one who gets into a bit of hot water. Take the time off, trust me :) Dusti 16:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Nominations for the 2014 Arbitration Committee Election open

This is the second reminder that the nomination period for the 2014 Arbitration Committee Elections are open from Sunday 00:01, 9 November 2014 (UTC) to Tuesday 23:59, 18 November 2014 (UTC). Candidates may nominate themselves by following the directions at the candidates page.--v/r - TP 19:10, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Possible organised disruption

We have just received an e-mail at OTRS alerting us to this page:

http://pastebin.com/60iFkCX5

Thanks.--ukexpat (talk) 15:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It's a continuation of known outside influence to attempt to sway an ongoing ArbCom case request regarding the Gamergate Controversy. --MASEM (t) 16:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User talk:Retartist/8chanstuff which is likely directly related to this. Ivanvector (talk) 16:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is all connected. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Ayurveda

John (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has imposed 0RR on the article, in response to some edit wars. Regardless of whether there was a problem, 0RR is absurd in potentially pseudoscience articles, as unjustified claims cannot be removed. Hence, I applied full protection to the article. If the 0RR not an arbitration enforcement remedy, I would revert it to 1RR myself, but John hasn't specified, and I don't want to get into that mess.

I propose that the restriction, if a single admin is permitted to add restrictions, be changed to 1RR, and anyone blocked for a 0RR violation be given an apology. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, John also imposed the restriction that there should be no major changes without consensus. That is probably a better choice of restriction than any revert restriction. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:42, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I also propose that the article be reverted to the state it was at when the 0RR restriction was imposed, with any edits made with consensus reinstated. I doubt any edits were yet made with consensus. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There were many edits made after consensus.--- I also think that we are nearer to resolution, it may take a few days, but things are going well. Bladesmulti (talk) 08:49, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think things are going at all well. The "anti-Ayurveda" editors except QG are intimidated from commenting on the substance of the article on the talk page. (QG should be intimidated, as I can't figure out what he was blocked for. He apparently can't figure it out, either.) All other comments are on the failures of 0RR. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

A number of editors said they were no longer watching the article because 0RR. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I see no consensus for those edits, or at least no more consensus than for adding the bald statement "AV is generally considered pseudoscience." — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment 0RR for a fringe medical topic is not a great idea; as anybody who watchlists this type of article knows, pretty much every day some drive-by editor will add some kind of claim to one of them that cumin cures cancer or somesuch. If bogus health information is locked in place on Misplaced Pages by ad hoc rules, then that's a poor show. Alexbrn 09:19, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• A "zero-revert" restriction is a monstrosity in principle and pretty much never a good idea at all, as it unilaterally gives an advantage to people who insert tendentious stuff, and makes cleanup of sub-standard edits nearly impossible. I'd strongly support lifting this thing. What could work instead is a set of "slow-down" rules, such as: (a) before any (non-vandalism) revert, it is mandatory to first explain the need for the revert on the talkpage, and then waiting a given period of time (say, 4 hours) before actually making the revert, to allow for discussion. (b) nobody is allowed to make any contentious edit without prior discussion; a contentious edit is defined as any edit that significantly shifts the POV balance of a piece of text in such a way that any reasonable observer would expect it to be unacceptable to editors on the other side of the dispute. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

  Probably better than what I suggested. Thanks. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 11:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) 0RR seems unreasonably restrictive, as Fut.Perf. points out it gives the upper hand to the POV warriors. Wouldn't full protection have been better? Ivanvector (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• This will be my only comment here. I would ask anyone commenting here to take the trouble to read the actual restrictions I imposed, which are at Talk:Ayurveda#Going_forward. They are written in English, in plain text, so this should be easy to accomplish. If, after reading the actual restrictions and not the very poor summary presented above, anybody has any concerns, they should message me at my talk as stated there. Since the restrictions were placed on 20 October, a grand total of 0 editors have done this. Not even the two editors I have blocked so far have complained. Coming straight here to complain about my (successful) admin actions under a misleading summary is a strange thing to do. I am a little concerned that User:Arthur Rubin's actions (which include an out-of-process full protection) here arise from some more sinister motive than lack of competence but for now I will assume good faith and put it down to that. --John (talk) 16:57, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

  Multiple editors assumed that you would respond to the multiple requests for your involvement on the article talk page. This discussion on this noticeboard seems a good way to clear up the problems. --Ronz (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

  John: I did read your wording of the restrictions before I commented here, and my criticism above does apply to them as worded. A "no reverts" and "no major edits without prior consensus" rule is a recipe either for slow degradation or standstill of an article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

  John, your snide and sarcastic "they are written in English, in plain text" is the sort of thing you would (rightly) have taken someone else to task for. Lead by example. 216.3.101.62 (talk) 04:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• fwiw, i had just recently started editing the article when the 0RR was imposed. i objected, as did Bobrayner and as did] Yobol, and when John remained firm, I said I would not participate under a 0RR condition. I stopped watching it (although I did pop in to !vote in an RfC that I saw notice of). Jytdog (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Same here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Multiple experienced editors raised concerns about the 0RR restriction for precisely the same reasons as noted above, with unfortunately little direct response. I have also largely ignored what has been going on on that page due to said restriction. Hopefully we can find a solution to the problem without driving off experienced editors. Yobol (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• To be fair I did not read John's restrictions before I commented above, but I have now, and I stand by my comment. Other editors' concerns about what's considered a revert are valid. If I'm working on a page where anons are repeatedly inserting nonsense claims, and any corrective action I take comes with a reasonable risk that some admin is going to interpret it as a revert and block on sight, I'm not going to waste my time with it. Besides, isn't WP:0RR meant to be applied to seriously edit-warring editors, not to pages? Ivanvector (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
• Completely agree with Arthur Rubin, under the circumstances, imposing 0RR was a mistake. Fully protecting the article was responsible a decision, and modifying the restriction to make it 1RR would remedy the situation. Alternatively, Fut Perf's restrictions could be be implemented instead. PhilKnight (talk) 00:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
• "No reverts, at all, for any reason other than obvious vandalism. There should be no reason to do this. WP:0RR" is what User:John put in place. That is an unworkable restriction on most articles, and certainly not one about a pseudoscience. A 0RR restriction places the crackpots on an even footing with legitimate editors, and that prevents building an encyclopedia.—Kww(talk) 21:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know about others, but this page has to do nothing with pseudoscience. I was notified about zero revert soon after I had edited. నిజానికి (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

In May, I complained to the admin John that he was reverting on my talk page. He then immediately blocked me.

In November, after I reverted my edit at Ayurveda and was waiting for consensus I got blocked without any prior warning of the 0RR restrictions at the article. Note: The admin John has been notified of the sanctions. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ah, I get the picture. I see now that the ArbCom tag was added here on 30 October by User:Roxy the dog, one of the problematic editors at that page, well after I had become involved in keeping the peace there. I later had to block said editor for repeatedly insulting other editors there. Then just now I get an ArbCom notice from User:QuackGuru, (diff above) another problematic contributor who I have also had to block. The problems there, quite apart from any perceived COI involved, is that the question whether ayurveda is a pseudoscience or not is one of several things the two entrenched camps have been arguing about for ages. If the tag is to stick there, I might step back and let Arbcom administer this as that is what they are paid the big bucks to do. I wonder though whether Roxy and QG need further sanctions for this game-playing and battleground behaviour. What do others think? --John (talk) 23:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• To describe the people that have been attempting to keep the article reflecting mainstream thinking as problematic is itself problematic.—Kww(talk) 23:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I just about fell out of my metaphorical chair when I read that. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Their 'thinking' cannot be found even among the smallest minority. Sadly if someone is convinced to think that 2 and 3 is 4, and keeps repeating the same miscalculation, we should seek solution. Page was created 10 years ago and there was no discussion about pseudoscience on its talk until last month. Only RTD believes and his intention is to plaster the article with 'this pseudo scientific claptrap', it is possible that he would receive some support from the editors who haven't researched. Bottom line is that they cannot really form any compatibility, nor there is any comparison with any other pseudoscience. No expert would agree. నిజానికి (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• To describe the person who described the people that have been attempting to keep the article reflecting mainstream thinking as problematic is itself problematic.... We are not here to discuss article content, but thank you for making your position clear on that. I myself am strictly neutral on the article content and will do whatever I can to enforce proper editing and decorum there. If 0RR is felt to be unhelpful by neutral admins such as Fut.Perf. and PhilKnight we can strike that. We can of course still block for edit-warring. The more serious question is should an editor who is involved not just in editing the page but in insulting those he disagrees with, be allowed to add this tag while the article's status is being discussed? Should it be allowed to stay? I haven't seen this situation before and am genuinely curious how other respected and neutral admins think it should best be handled. --John (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• e/c I find it rather sad that for the third time today I have found John to be dishonest in his edits. His actual reasons for my block, per the log, are, "harassment and personal attack" and as he himself stated in the discussion following said block ""when you said " ...the only people who like it are the fringe pushers who don't have the good of wikipedia as their highest priority"". For the third time this evening, we expect better behaviour from our admins. I might also add that a fellow admin of John's stated that "I'm not saying that you harassed anyone, and I don't consider that your comment was a personal attack. - It is time to examine your own behaviour, John. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 23:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• Please read WP:NPA carefully -A1candidate (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• According to Roxy the dog, calling others a fringe editor is not personal attack. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
• Hi Blades, just so you know this isn't a personal attack, it is very nice to see you here. I would just like to point out that I'm a fringe editor too. Best regards. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 06:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Sounded like fringe advocate when you were referring to others. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:13, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Blades, what an interesting comment. If I may be allowed to make a polite observation on it, you do indeed appear to be advocating fringe theories both here, and on the Ayurveda Talk page. Would you not agree? Be safe. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Yes you have a point there. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:46, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• John, my position is quite clear: we are here to make an encyclopedia. We certainly have battleground articles, and it's important to make certain that some behavioural norms are adhered to. That does not include making it simpler for people to portray myth and superstition as if it were science, and that's what a 0RR restriction does: it treats the two as being equivalent. Our goal here is to ensure that we maintain civil discourse while ensuring that reality-based edits prevail.—Kww(talk) 00:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• As you said it yourself, we're here to make an encyclopedia, not to fight pseudoscience. An article in a permanent state of edit-warring deserves 0RR restriction. -A1candidate (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ensuring that pseudoscience is not described as factual is an essential component of being an encyclopedia.—Kww(talk) 00:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• That would be best done on the talk page instead of turning the article into a battleground. -A1candidate (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Problems could have been solved in a single day, if we were going to follow the consensus and the long discussions that have been made about hardly 4 issues. But what I have seen is that even if 10 people are in agreement, there is always one, mostly Roxy the Dog, who disrupts the process. John is actually correct if he claims that Roxy the Dog is gaming and battling. I would like to add that this page never had any edit conflict before 18 October, this year. One day, Dominus_Vobisdu had removed long standing content from this article, with the summary "This whole section is unsourced, but comparisons to real medicine are egregious OR and POV)", yet there was no OR and POV and section was actually sourced, all he did was remove the translated terms. After I added more citations to each, he reverted it again without even reading the citation and said "Must be MEDRS sources", same thing was done by Roxy the Dog, "None are WP:MEDRS". Though none of these required MEDRS, and when I brought it to talk page, I only had a one-liner from Roxy the dog, it was "e/c none of those comply," I had to bring it to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine/Archive_54#MEDRS_verification, where the consensus was established to include these terms, yet, both Dominus and Roxy the dog had started to edit war, they were not discussing about the removal of this longstanding content. That is why the page had to be under 0rr restriction. Today Roxy tells that there was no consensus but he is alone opposing these edits, at least since 18th October. Whenever Roxy the dog was asked about the reasons behind his opposition to this kind of common information that has been cited with reliable sources, he could done nothing about it but refer to comments of Dominus Vobisdu, though they lacked any policy backed rationale, and approached Misplaced Pages:DONTLIKE. Roxy is ignoring that clear consensus on Medicine project, still pushing that irrelevant comment of Dominus Vobisdu and telling others(Jayaguru-Shishya) to "stop being disruptive", right after coming from a block. I have never seen even a single edit from Roxy the dog, that could benefit the page. All he has done is revert others' edits and distort. Of course some kind of sanction is needed for Roxy the dog. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• I think sourced text should be in the article:

• The talk page discussion is going nowhere. Maybe a group of admins can decide what should go in the article. What do others think? The 0RR restrictions are not helping with improving the article. QuackGuru (talk) 06:15, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• With the majority of editors disagreeing with those changes, including the last 2 newly proposed paragraphs that have been rejected a few times. It seems like you believe that consensus is based upon how much you have misused the noticeboards or how much you rebelled for your preferred version. That's why John highlighted your battlefield approach. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Do you have a specific disagreement with the proposal based on WP:PAG? I don't think so. QuackGuru (talk) 06:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for clarifying what I said before. Because you are pretending that you have skipped every single explanations that has been provided to you by number of editors on the talk(page) and you need an explanation here, I wouldn't be copying that whole to this noticeboard. I have rechecked the relevant section and multiple editors were involved in building up a summary. You can help there, after reading and reviewing that discussion. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Lifting 0RR restriction

It's pretty apparent that the 0RR restriction has very little support. Since John refuses to lift it (see User talk:John#Ayurveda restrictions), what's the mechanism? Ivanvector, Arthur Rubin, Fut.Perf.?—Kww(talk) 12:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Kww, I think Philknight can suggest something good. Bladesmulti (talk) 12:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Though John really put the hammer down it does seem he had a call for action. How about mandatory BRD? After the revert don't add it back without a consensus. Bold, remove, and discuss to get a consensus, if you can't get a consensus on the talk page take it to one of the multiple venues for dispute resolution. That along with some of the other restriction John set in place: No name-calling, however mild, from either side. No use of terms like "quack" or "censorship", including in edit summaries, or any reference to any editor's supposed affiliations or motivations. Any legitimate complaints about editor behaviour can be referred to an uninvolved Admin or to WP:AN/I. All business on this particular article. No trash talk, just content. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• I've got no objection to a "no trash talk" restriction, but enforcing BRD isn't very different from 0RR. The conclusion from our Arbcom decision on pseudoscience is that we needed to take measures to ensure that our policy of neutrality was not manipulated to favour distortion of reality.—Kww(talk) 17:57, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

If there's agreement among neutral admins here that 0RR has no consensus, and John refuses to acknowledge or suggest an alternative, I think another admin is warranted in overriding John's restriction. Though I'm not an admin myself and personally haven't encountered this situation before. But what should it be lifted to? Full protection? PC/2 doesn't have consensus for use, and I don't think would help here anyway. Ivanvector (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Please lift it. John doesn't appear to be able to look at his decision to impose 0RR in an objective manner, nor look at options: User_talk:John#Ayurveda_-_At_your_request. --Ronz (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Well how about 1RR with the additional restrictions?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• @Kww:The BRD isn't different from 0RR, except that the editors are able to edit the article. Challenged stuff goes out. It can't go in without a consensus. Honestly there will be little effective means to take measures to ensure that pseudoscience isn't used to as you say distort our reality(you made me laugh there.) There's stuff to do but none of it's guranteed to work and I'm not sure it's in our ability here to do them. Such as we could set up a review committee with specific instructions. It just seems to me though that we can trust some of the systems already in place. They ain't perfect. The main thing that comes to mind with that suggestion is that it ends the disruption, it encourages working towards a consensus, and it does give room to work. I lean to the presumption that if you can't get a consensus it might not need to be in the article. There are pitfalls to this presumption but we do have a consensus based system. The system has the potential for abuse but most any system does. The (for lack of better term) partisan fringe editors could go to a world is flat article and challenge the mention that it was once thought that the world was flat. Pretty much though that is Pointy and pretty much just a bad faith negotiation tactic. That would suggest to me that such an editor may not be here to build an encyclopedia to me. There would be enough rope here for one to hang themselves.But honestly I'm just offering an idea to forward this conversation.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm assuming John's restriction is under the aegis of arbcom discretionary sanctions, as (as far as I know -- someone please provide a link to policy if I'm wrong) an admin can't unilaterally place restrictions on a page unless it's under General or Discretionary Sanctions. As described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Appeals_and_modifications, an overturn discussion requires a clear consensus of admins here (on AN) or AE or ARCA. Rather than wikilawyer over whether "ANI" counts as part of the "AN" clause, I've simply moved the discussion here. I agree with Kww et. al. the 0RR should be overturned for the reasons they give but my non-admin vote doesn't count, of course. NE Ent 23:27, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

NE Ent That arbcom sanctions template was added by Roxy the dog, after 12 days when John had imposed 0rr. Bladesmulti (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

The template doesn't determined whether an article is in the scope of the sanctions or not. It isn't required in order to issue sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 02:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Correct and article was always under Misplaced Pages:ARBIP because it has WikiProject-India. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't want to wikilawyer either, but technically all of the comments in this thread prior to the one directly above mine were made at AN/I, not at AN. You just moved them here. Sorry, you brought it up. I'm also in favour of overturning as a non-admin, fwiw. I'm in favour of either the 1RR or enforced-BRD proposals, although I think they are functionally the same. Ivanvector (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards
• Administrative backlog