Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:39, 18 November 2014

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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Why did you encourage Gamergaters to write their own version of the Gamergate Misplaced Pages article?

What is your end goal with this? Integrating it into our article? KonveyorBelt 01:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Err yeah, gotta admit that doesn't look good. An explanation would be good. Were you being sarcastic? serious? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I was being completely serious. There are a great many complaints about our article, and at least some of them are from people who are not raging lunatics. There have been some specific complaints about behavior, and again not all those complaints are wrong nor are they all from raging lunatics. The specific wiki that I pointed people to is a pro-gamergate wiki, and it's a legitimate challenge: if there is a complaint that the Misplaced Pages entry is in violation of Misplaced Pages policies it will be useful to see exactly how.

On twitter, a writer from Slate (a notable publication, obviously) is complaining as well that his views have been unfairly represented in our article. There are repeated complaints that don't strike me as completely wrong that there is a double standard for sourcing with sources which are anti-gamergate being given a pass where they would be challenged as mere blogs if they were pro-gamergate. That's obviously a point worth discussing but (a) twitter is not a very helpful medium for having a serious discussion and (b) the level of drama on the Misplaced Pages talk page is not going to be helped if I just tell them to bring their concerns to the talk page.

So it seems to me that the challenge is a solid way to move things forward. If they are able to produce something that independent and thoughtful Wikipedians agree is validly better than our article in some respects, that will be useful.

For me, when people say "Valid mainstream sources are being ignored or misquoted in the Misplaced Pages entry" I take that very seriously - but it's hard for me to fully evaluate it if the complaint goes no further than that. I'd like to be shown how those who think our article is bad would improve it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I have to say, I'm totally on board with that reasoning, but if the goal is to have it be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article one day, maybe in the future having them create it in a sandbox area on-wiki would be better? I only mention this because I know that the edit history is seen as part of satisfying the BY portion of the CC-By-SA license, so I don't know if that can get tricky when pulling content from Wikia to Misplaced Pages. Either way, I have to agree that inviting a bunch of SPAs to a talk page doesn't usually help a situation out, and having them come in with fleshed-out ideas of their ideal wording and sourcing is I think not a problem. 0x0077BE 14:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I can think up some positive reasons but the troll potential and the possible bias among editor's opinions outweighs them all. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

If there is troll potential, that'll be an issue for the admins of that wiki to deal with. I'm quite sure this is better than me inviting a mass of single purpose accounts to come to the Misplaced Pages talk page.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Honestly Jimbo, don't create work for admins (or anyone else) that you aren't willing to pick up yourself. Perhaps you should be the one curating this draft so that you might get an idea of what people trying to maintain NPOV are dealing with. Resolute 14:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably to see how they'd phrase some things, and the possibility to add to the article currently here if found within wiki policies/guidelines. When you've spent all the time looking at the article on Misplaced Pages, and not having any attempt to see what the other side would've characterized certain events as, you get a skewed perspective. I'm happy with Jimbo's decision to do such, as it has the benefit of offering the other side the way to contexualize and centralize what happened, and Jimbo a way to see if there are any legitimate things that could be added to the wiki page. Additionally, Misplaced Pages is fragrantly complicated and convoluted. Wikia very much isn't, especially the newly created wikias, and would probably lead to broader participation as a result. The semi protection on the GamerGate talk page also probably doesn't help. Tutelary (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all of that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that 4chan isn't going to take full advantage of this. Its a good idea yes but can have some bad results. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Just strikes me as incredibly divisive and polarising. Oh well, let's see what happens. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how it is divisive and polarising at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Errr, you don't see how two articles in parallel could be polarising.... rather than, say, discussion on one article here...? Umm, yes it can and will. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I also want to add that if it adds to the controversy, Jimbo could get involved in it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

• shrug* If they can come up with something useful and usable, more power to them... and if not (and it will be very clear if not) then they will clearly demonstrate why the article needs great attention from experienced editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:06, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

To me, it seems like dividing Misplaced Pages editors into those who like the current version of the article and those who don't is incredibly divisive. Thus I agree w/Casliber. Everymorning talk to me 01:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

The article at Wikia couldn't be worse than the one here. --DHeyward (talk) 05:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The article is actually looking ok (aside from been written by people with no wiki experience) it doesn't make any negative claims (unless you count extreme cynicism of anti-gg's reports of harassment) but it needs A LOT of work and sourcing. I foresee sections of it being used but at the moment it is full of trolls and unsourced opinion. Retartist (talk) 07:09, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

And if that's all it ever becomes then serious Wikipedians (like me) who have no personal interest in the issue can feel more comfortable that allegations of a small cabal of abusive editors (frequently mentioned in complaints are Tarc and Ryulong) are controlling the article to the detriment of Misplaced Pages are not very persuasive. And if they come up with an article that is well-sourced, neutral, and contains information that ours has omitted due to bias - then Misplaced Pages can be improved.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

More constructive might have been suggesting they talk to journalists and give their side of the story...and if aforesaid journalists write new articles, then they are in reliable sources. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:28, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

...which is another approach, not necessarily "more constructive," just something of a different nature. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

What Cas Liber is aiming at is the fact that we have very, very few reliable sources explaining Gamergate's perspective; pointing at marked-up screenshot imgurs and random YouTube videos isn't going to give us anything new to work with there. A large percentage of the issue is that Gamergate supporters believe there is some grand media conspiracy to silence them while the mainstream perspective is that Gamergate's claims have been examined and found wanting. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:46, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Comparing the two approaches (just a first thrust at this):

• Advantages (of "talk to the press" approach):
  • An eventual report in the press may be used as a WP:V type of source directly, avoiding, for instance, a second step cleanup like the one (still needed) for the Pajot source (see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 55#Phasing out the forum)
• Disadvantages of "talk to the press" approach:
  • Time delay: it is incertain if and when reporters may decide to publish anything on the subject. Do we want to keep a Misplaced Pages article in kaboots for a day that may never come?
  • When such press publication appears it still may have WP:RS issues, compare e.g. which resulted from such "faction talking to the press" approach, and did not result in an external source that was of much use for the Misplaced Pages article it was discussing.
  • When such external publication appears there is more risk of uncertainty that we really get to know what the insiders may see as an equilibrate article, and which third party sources they would primarily rely on.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 10:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the fourth disadvantage of the "talk to the press" approach is that, when there are claims that journalistic integrity is a significant component of the gamergate controversy, there then becomes distrust in the neutrality of articles appearing in the press on the subject.

I applaude this suggestion of Jimbo's. I feel that much work is needed on the article, to try to reconcile it with the large number of sources on the Internet which apparently contradict it, yet do not appear to be the work of raging lunatics. This could be a significant step forward in that direction. --Mrjulesd (talk) 10:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Initially I was supportive of this idea, but now I don't see it ending well. Let's assume a best case scenario - 1000's of people get together and produce a mostly NPOV pro-GamerGate article, some of which might be used to better balance the one we have. Is this what they were after? Because I'm fearful that they believe that they have been offered an opportunity to write their own version of the article which may be used as a replacement for the one here, and, in all honesty, I don't see that happening. (Reading through 8Chan, that appears to be the least of what they believe they can achieve with this article). Assuming that they do write a decent article, what do you see as happening next, and will that be enough? - Bilby (talk) 13:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales: If parts are copied over, how are we going to attribute it? Retartist (talk) 04:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

(not Jimbo Wales.) By linking to the history of the Wikia article in the edit summary when you add or paraphrase the Wikia content into the Misplaced Pages version. When you make changes to the WP article that are inspired by the Wikia article, even if you're not using their text, you should acknowledge the source somehow; maybe by linking to the relevant version of the Wikia article in the WP edit summary. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:16, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

A clear case of Jimbo once again outsmarting himself. All this does is further the divide on Misplaced Pages with systemic bias. As if the harassed and those that abhor such tactics won't take stuff like this as a slap in the face. Meanwhile, most reliable sources have the 'issue' well documented, despite the large troll infestation. Jimmy should next visit 8chan and /b/, to invite them to start writing articles about women. Dave Dial (talk) 08:04, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Judging by the overwhelming lean in contrast to your average gaming site towards being female-centric, they would probably become lop-sidedly pro. Also they really like boobs.--Ihadurca Il Imella (talk) 22:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I think this initiative by Jimbo was a good idea and may ultimately lead to a better article. I have more general concerns about whether it is currently possible to produce a neutral, well-sourced article on this topic at all, given the low quality of the sources, their often impressionistic nature, the tendency toward original synthesis with such topics, and the temptation in a case like this to use Misplaced Pages as a site for cultural warfare - indeed whenever such a current and fluid topic is covered. Both the official article and the off-site draft currently have these problems. Not sure why the whole kerfuffle couldn't have been left for elsewhere for now until things settle and there are better sources available. But we will see. Metamagician3000 (talk) 06:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

A possible broader picture: distrust of primary sources

What may be (one of?) the underlying issues of this is Misplaced Pages's difficulty of dealing with WP:PRIMARY sources:

• Official policy (WP:PRIMARY) is to be extra careful when using primary sources;
• This often turns into wholesale "distrust" of primary sources: avoid them, scoop them out with a bulldozer, well, who wants to put time and effort in being "careful" when a nuclear option is so much more simple?

My take on this is that articles can't really become equilibrated, a.k.a. WP:NPOV, when primary sources are barred entirely. Not wanting to speak for anyone else, but I think Jimbo is concerned about this too.

Compare current efforts at:

• WT:NPOV#WP:BALASPS to get the WP:BALASPS section of that policy on a better track, balancing what sources have to say about themselves with what what others have to say about them.
• Template talk:Primary sources#WP:ABOUTSELF/WP:BLPSELFPUB caveat, the template being currently an indiscriminate statement in favour of the "nuclear option" on primary sources, overriding policy (not only WP:PRIMARY, but also WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:BLPSELFPUB). My Template-protected edit request on 8 November 2014 which (with a minimal community interest in the topic) seems to have consensus to at least make the template no longer contradict policy, is still awaiting implementation.

(My interest in this was spurred by the ACIM issues, which still seem far from being solved) --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Francis, as it appears you're not entirely familiar with the Gamergate matter, we have to entirely almost entirely reject primary sources there because it involves a number of highly-sensitive claims made about living people, and we're simply not going to repeat anonymous bloggers' claims about people's personal lives. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I'm completely unaware of Gamergate, never heard of it, and didn't even click the links in this talk page section (my bad). Re. "we have to entirely reject primary sources because it involves a number of highly-sensitive claims made about living people", well, *that* kind of assertion I can interpret immediately, and without knowing *anything* about the Gamergate content matter, to be contradicting current policy: WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V and WP:BLP (see most applicable section links to these policies in what I said before) — note: we're talking crucial "core" content policy here, not some accessory guidance open to a wider interpretation for implementation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:00, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

(A somewhat older involvement in this: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source) --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I should qualify my statement with "almost." Yes, there are a very few places where primary sources might be usable, where a person is saying something uncontroversial about themselves. But the vast majority of primary sources are entirely inappropriate for articles related to this issue. WP:BLP is core content policy, not "accessory guidance," and it ensures that we don't become a vehicle for republishing scurrilous, unfounded or outright libelous material about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, gee, you didn't have any problem using primary sources to smear my name when your inference was completely false and you were apparently trolled (I don't read 8chan/4chan/reddit, don't get email and certainly don't participate). Then you refused to retract it. Didn't stop you from reposting a primary source that is completely wrong though. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of a hypocritical liar. --DHeyward (talk) 16:27, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I was specifically listing WP:BLP as one of these core policies above. Well, anyway, if you could concentrate more on which primary sources (and which material contained in them) are eligible for use in the Misplaced Pages article on Gamergate (which would be a positive implementation of WP:ABOUTSELF — the non-BLP part of this — while being watchful to avoid WP:BLP issues, I suppose), instead of throwing it all out based on a misreading of WP:BLP, I think you'd be taking a big step in the right direction. And Jimbo's invitation (which to me reads like: create a primary source free of BLP issues and we'll see what we can do) is collaborative to that effort. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

There really aren't any primary sources so eligible, because the whole thrust of Gamergate is centered around making allegations of wrongdoing by identifiable living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that much I understood. But going from "(virtually no) primary sources so eligible" to finding out and exploiting what *is* eligible per Misplaced Pages policy is the change of mindset that would do a lot of good here imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:10, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Reorg

The above is an interesting experiment but what the Pedia should do is re-think its organization (which would address due weight, and have the side benefit of cutting out most editorial dysfunction): Merge the article into a paragraph of Video game culture and let the rest of the winds blow elsewhere (or blow themselves out), at least until the academic studies come in. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I see some merit in this, but let's see how it plays out. Metamagician3000 (talk) 06:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I see a similar state of denial regarding validity of sources in that: in Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources "academic studies" is only one of many sets of possible sources (and even then, usually primary regarding the actual study results).

Once there are enough third-party reliable sources on a topic it can have its separate article (call it "notability" or whatever: insider primary sources play no part in establishing a topic merits its separate article)

Once there is a separate article, insider primary sources can and often should be considered to build the article content in a NPOV way. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Denial of what? Deny a platform for personal opinions and tabloid fodder is what we do. (And academic studies of a social movement are not going to be a primary source -- its not a medical study). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I meant, the denial to see primary sources sanctioned by policy (or in the variant, sources outside scholarship) as valid sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of primary sources is problematic centering on WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, especially in the SYNTH and DUE aspects - that's not "denial", that's "understanding of" There are also often WP:RS problems in that there is no editorial control, nor reputation for fact checking/accuracy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:19, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course primary sources are more difficult to work with (did I say anything else?) — Of course they are difficult to work with: they are so for historical topics, and more so for recent topics, and of course even more so when BLP concerns are added to the equasion. The point is: they shouldn't be rejected wholesale out of laziness, especially as in some cases they need to be used in order to obtain a NPOV. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:29, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Both Alan and Francis have good points. There is some independent research (for example a study on the #gg tweets directed to ZQ, which measured I think about 5-6% as being hostile) but per WP:NOTNEWS we are perhaps trying to write about things which not yet known. And certainly primary sources are undervalued, and at the same time difficult to use. #gg on Misplaced Pages has been a very sad episode, with some of the biggest helpings of ABF I have ssen, often coming from people who can generally be relied upon. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:12, 18 November 2014 (UTC).

Wikipedian of the year

Mr. Wales, you've named Ihor Kostenko (from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages, deceased on Euromaidan) Wikipedian of the year for 2014. Are you going to send his award ($5,000)) to his family? Regards.222.187.222.118 (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I see you were active Mr.Wales, but have not responded my question yet. Would you, please? 222.187.222.118 (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the circumstances and political climate in the Ukraine, it would be unwise to make these matters public as it represents a possible security risk for his family. There are plenty who might seek to abscond with any such award.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:41, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

The public announcement has been made in London already. Sending a check to the family would not add anything to the publicity and most definitely will not put his family at risk. 222.88.236.236 (talk) 03:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Homophobia in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages!!!

Hello. I'm open gay Wikipedian from Ukraine. I want to report a homophobic activities of some administrators and patrol Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. Present direct and indirect discrimination. Related articles LGBT renamed, removed or changed beyond recognition and biased their content. LGBT friendly accused of "advocating LGBT"! There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages and is unrelated to common sense and the rules of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages Misplaced Pages, homophobes administrators and patrol called a "collection of information" and promote "non-traditional values." Homosexuality Article in Ukrainian Misplaced Pages entitled "homosexualist." And Article hey do not have any relation to the topic of the article. There napsyano of MSM and that gays - spread the AIDS disease. User A1 promotes orthodox attitudes to homosexuality and phaye information on how it relates to LGBT church in the paper, which is irrelevant. The new administrator Green Zero has deleted many categories and articles on LGBT issues. particular category of gay writers. Me and other LGBT participants repeatedly verbally humiliated publicly. Addiction is especially thorough and biased. Although we attempt to write quality articles as possible and have contributed enough respect. That our existence they and other homophobes recognized as "LGBT propaganda." I and other LGBT Wikipedian very simple somehow affect this entire situation because this is unacceptable - it bullinh and in direct violation of not only LGBT rights in Ukraine but also the rules of Misplaced Pages! Thank you! Please help! --Rayan Riener (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Rayan Riener: Bystander here. I have added a POV template to the first article you linked to. Although I do not speak your language, Google Translate shows that the article is not very neutral. Could someone who speaks Ukrainian read the linked pages and tell us about them? --Tony Tan · talk 03:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Another bystander here with no opinion about content. The title of the first article is "Homosexual Propaganda" so it's reasonable to expect that there would be non neutral information there. There's a different article called "Homosexuality" that seems a lot more reasonable to me at first glance. If this is a content dispute, has it been addressed on the article talk page? I know the language, but maybe not as well as a native speaker. This example is a proposal to rename the article. The title is not ""homosexualist" like is being claimed. The proposal is to rename the article from "Societal attitudes toward homosexualism" to "Societal attitudes toward homosexuality." The discussion on the proposal talks about how the words related to homosexuality are not native to the Ukrainian language. All versions of the word are adaptations of English. So the discussion is about what's the right word to use "homosexuality" or "homosexualism."

According to the user page, User:Rayan Riener claims to know Ukrainian, so my question is why are they not on the Ukrainian WP addressing this on the talk page there? What is being claimed in this English request is not reflected on the article. "There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Misplaced Pages" --- I see the same article in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish, and they're not recent, they've been there for years. I don't know if Rayan Riener is fluent in English, but this request makes no sense to me. USchick (talk) 04:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Could it be that User:Rayan Riener does not understand English well and wrote the above post with the help of a machine translation? The user, "Green Zero" (admin), mentioned does seem to have replaced some instances of "homosexual" with "gay:" here, but I cannot make a judgement as I cannot understand the language without the help of Google Translate. However, that action was eventually reverted by another editor. Just out of curiosity, are there any articles named "Homosexual Propaganda" in other wikis besides what you mentioned? I know that on enwiki, it redirects to a more neutral section on Societal attitudes toward homosexuality. --Tony Tan · talk 05:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Based on their edit history, it's very possible that User:Rayan Riener has a very limited proficiency in English and contributes with assistance, electronic for very simple things, and a secretary for more complicated things like this request. Their user page is written in third person, like a famous person's profile. If they contribute in other languages, their profile is not linked to their English profile, and being from a region not friendly to their needs, there may be a good reason for this, so I'm assuming good faith. As far as I can tell, Rayan Riener is unhappy with the actions of admins on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. It's hard to tell what those actions are, because we don't know his identity there, so I can't track the actual edits. Rayan Riener doesn't have a talk page, and even if he did, I'm not sure he would be able to use it, but it's worth a try if someone wants to do that. As far as "Homosexual propaganda" article, it exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish. The title reflect the actual term used in other languages and in parliament to write laws for several countries including Latvia. If they're legislating "Homosexual propaganda" people need to know what it means. In the lede it does a good job of explaining what the term means to both sides, those who do and do not support the idea of homosexuality. And it's written in a neutral tone. Both Russian and Ukrainian articles seem fine in the lede. I can't speak for Polish. In the Russian version, it even explains that "propaganda" is not used in the traditional sense, that it's a combined term. Yes, that's correct. It's a combination of two words that means something different than each word individually. In English "Homosexual propaganda" means something totally different, that's why it redirects. An example of a combined term in English would be "pretty cool" where each word separately means something different. It's also possible that Rayan Riener only speaks English, which would explain his outrage. USchick (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Rayan Riener I have to edit here as an IP because I am community banned here on English Misplaced Pages. But let me address some of the issues you have raised here. For the record, I am queer myself. :)

I have discussed the issues you raised above with some editors from Ukrainian Misplaced Pages, and in no particular order, the following needs to be raised:

1. A checkuser on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages found that you have been "abusing" multiple accounts. In addition to your Rayan account, you also were using uk:User:Kvitka Cvit. Whilst this in itself is not a problem if you are creating content, like I have, where you ran into trouble is.....
2. at this category discussion.
3. on Misplaced Pages, we don't tend separate "gay" or "lesbian" from "LGBT" topics. Simply put, human sexuality is a complex subject and LGBT covers-all.
4. many of the comments in that discussion from uk:Користувач:A1 are, I agree, totally unacceptable. Being a board member of Wikimedia Ukraine, A1 should take stock of what they have said there and think whether some of their comments were appropriate (they are not!), and perhaps Wikimedia Ukraine members should think whether his comments truly are representative of Wikimedia projects.
5. the articles you mention which were deleted, there are several issues:
   1. This was deleted for being a copyvio of this.
   2. This was deleted for not being notable. It is available here and it simply isn't notable.
   3. Likewise this was deleted for similar reasons. It is apparently a yaoi manga by uk:Камо_Набако, whom himself does not appear to be notable.
   4. There were several other deletions of non-notable garage bands and the like.
   5. There were also several machine translations of articles. Don't use machine translations on articles, do natural translations.
6. Apparently you sent invites to over 100 editors on Ukrainian Misplaced Pages inviting them to join an LGBT WikiProject. Whilst a project for LGBT subjects would be an excellent idea, it's apparent that posted invites to random editors, many of whom have not shown an interest in editing those subjects. Targeted invites to editors whom had shown interest in those subjects would have been a better idea.

On the general issue of so-called gay propaganda, I can attest that uk:Пропаганда гомосексуалізму is an absolutely horrific article. We need to remember that Misplaced Pages is the sum-of-all human knowledge, not just the sum of all Ukrainian knowledge, or Russian knowledge, or American knowledge. It is similar to Gay agenda here on this project, in that it does not present a worldwide view of the subject, and yes, all of these articles could do with a lot of work. Just be sure to aim for neutrality when editing and cover all points of view from a worldwide viewpoint. Good luck. 175.106.47.131 (talk) 10:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I should add that uk:Користувач:A1's views on this matter do not represent WMUA's position in any way. I, also being member of the board of WMUA, was actually opposing him in one of the discussions. Sincerely, Yury Bulka (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@175.106.47.131:@Russavia: This is off topic, but I see that you are a sysop on Commons, so out of curiosity, I would like to ask why you were banned here? It seems strange. Thanks, Tony Tan · talk 21:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tony Tan 98: Extensive block log here. Looks like harassment, edit warring, various other things. 0x0077BE 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

1. Thank you! What is not neutral? What section? --Rayan Riener (talk) 07:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

   Hi, @175.106.47.131:. So, before I had a lot of mistakes. But that was before. I consider myself a beginner and trying to improve my skills, and I think that happens. Ryan Riener account I lost, forgotten password in 2012. Flower Blossom account created in 2013 and used it about a year. But clinging homophobes and removed all the articles on LGBT topics that I translated from English Misplaced Pages. So I created a new account that I did not touch many months was it. Then, to regain its original account. Of course, I had problems with the creation of articles at the beginning. But now everything is quite different. Everything else, except one - the same homophobia. --Rayan Riener (talk) 08:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• In 1991, according to WHO recommendations, Ukraine was the first former Soviet republic abolished criminal penalties for voluntary sexual relations between adult men (Article 122, part 1 of the Criminal Code of the USSR).

The word "homosexualizm" is used right-wing nationalists, Svoboda or Right Sector (!) Or other parties that support Russia. But rights or Latvia or Ukraine - It does not enshrined in any law (!) A major Ukrainian parties like the "Popular Front" or "Block Petro Poroshenko" (including all coalition representing the majority of the Ukrainian people) call against homophobia, and also promised to introduce legislation on combating discrimination LGBT in Ukraine. --Rayan Riener (talk) 08:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• I'll try to add my 5c to help others (as well as Rayan Riener) better understand the situation.
  • First of all, it's true that Ukrainian society is not the most gay-friendly one: sociologically according to the recent poll only 4.6% support same-sex marriages. On the other hand, I have absolutely no idea what Right Sector has to do with it: while this party is widely used by Russian propaganda, it does not have any notable pro- or anti-LGBT-related activity. I haven't seen anything either about pro- or anti-LGBT activities of major nationwide parties, thus I have no idea how this is relevant to the case. At the same time, unfortunately there is a problem of users who make untolerant statements, A1 unfortunately being one of them. However, I hope such statements are not representatives of Ukrainian wiki community.
  • What is true that most mainstream Ukrainian sources currently use the term гомосексуалізм, while LGBT-community prefers гомосексуальність to represent homosexuality. I don't see any bias here as well: the term гомосексуалізм is also used by neutral news or scientific sources. It's not up to Misplaced Pages to change terminology, it's up to WP:SOURCEs to change first. There is no difference between the word homosexuality or any other term here: Misplaced Pages uses the term used in sources, whether you like it or not.
  • However, the main issue for Rayan Riener was not that he is an open gay, but his contributions and behaviour. I don't remember any problems with his contributions until he started actively breaching rules, and community largely ignored the fact he was an open gay. However, problems started after creation of 5 sockpuppets (uk:Вікіпедія:Запити на перевірку користувачів#Прохання про перевірку) with some small contributions to articles and active participation in discussions. Raising an LGBT-related issue in a discussion and promoting your point of view from 5 different accounts is definitely not the best way to do it: constructive, neutral and well-grounded arguments are much better way yo do it. On the other hand, vandalising articles by users who made anti-LGBT statements is not a good way to deal with the problem either. Similarly, contributing to the article on same-sax marriages with text that some people in Ukraine want to destroy the LGBT-community is far from NPOV: such texts are definitely non-neutral and in addition irrelevant. At the same time, the previous version of the article (before contributions from one of Rayan's accounts) was much closer to NPOV as it did not contain any comments on the situation, neither pro-LGBT nor anti-LGBT
  • Another point that was very negatively viewed by Ukrainian community was spamming talk pages over 250 invitations to WikiProject LGBT. I used the word spamming because most invitations were sent to people having absolutely no interest in the topic. In particular, most users having template User Against Homophobia received no invitations, while users identifying themselves as deeply religious did receive an invitation. An obvious reaction of many people who were never interested in LGBT was reverting the invitation, sometimes with unfriendly comments.
  • Finally, there was a problem related to use of sources. While LGBT-community finds that the fact that a person is a gay is very important, that is not true of other users and readers. The fact that a person is a gay might be worth mentioning in the article, but definitely not as a main (in the introduction) or the only fact, except if the person is primarily known for LGBT-activities. In addition, such facts must be well-sourced. For example, it is incorrect to write that Walt Whitman or Yukio Mishima were gays given the disagreement among biographers and lack of clear evidence, while discussions on sexuality are worth mentioning in the article. In the same way, Michael Cunningham should not be called a gay writer without mentioning that he refuses this indication. This is extremely important for living people where one should carefully use sources. In the same way, edits with sole contributions being adding the fact that a person is gay without any source, are badly viewed by the community.
  • To sum up, this whole story shows that the problem is not about homophobia — it is mostly due to very poor image most contributors now have of the WikiProject LGBT because of repeated breach of rules, including sockpuppetry, vandalism, spam and POV-pushing. I think that constructive contributions, as well as neutral, well-sourced and non-biased articles about LGBT-topics would be much better received by the community, as well as meaningful (and not emotional) arguments in sensible discussions. Most of these homophobia-related stories could have been avoided if articles were well-written and well-sourced, as neutral articles on what a person dislikes are less chances to receive a bad reaction than non-neutral articles on the same issues. I do hope that Rayan Riener and others will try to keep their contributions as neutral and well-sourced as possible as well as follow rules and guidelines, and this will make the situation much less heated — NickK (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Disagree. Until I pchoav working on LGBT and in particular Articles LGBT project, REAL pressynh I experienced. There is discussion of homophobia and not me as a person. As I tsoum in question supports almost all LGBT Wikipedian who are afraid to write about it openly. All project participants complain about homophobia. When they removed the article only Sawm teum or written there that does not apply to articles. Right Sector consists of many organizations, including organizations "Trident". During Euromaidan, and I was in. I had nowhere to stay, because in my city mayor threatened me as "Titushky." But in the same tent, where I stayed, was "trident". They began Torment, was over the fact that I picked up things as they planned physical punishment, I told the other activists. I was forced to go live in the hostel without food or as to the Navier Street. I could not even go to the area because they threatened me. They always smoked prymyaly drugs and had sex with girls in the tent, in the city center (!) And then you ubdete to me that the right sector and all its participants is okay, and the use of terms extrinsic civilized right ?! I am for all the years of Misplaced Pages is constantly trying to improve their articles, but almost always had to learn all over himself, because the plot Ukrainian Misplaced Pages is not to rule "delete last resort", and such as A1 users that do not interest the article by rules and "Society and homosexuality, "we are almost sure renamed, despite the many voices and arguments against. Argument user A1, which clearly confirms bias and inadequacy and failure criterion removal of articles: "Category is homophobic and violate the rights homikiv. Take a good look at its contents. There Article 4 - Gay Bar, Gay Games, gay pride LGBT rights in Ukraine. The author of this category might think that all this passed into history? So it is not. And gay bars and gay games and gay pride parades in bloom and smell. This is not a story, it is a reality. How can you write off our rainbow reality in history? It's homophobia!"ЛГБТ The venerable user Brunei commented on this: "Even there is no desire to vote. Gross violation of rules. Plus the constant generation of conflict on level ground. I understand that Mr difficult days, but all of us is not easy. Suggest send it to rest for a week or another." And now the user A1 with his friend Green Zero znvou took up his. Not only is the article Homosexuality, is evident from the discussion, have long had to be renamed to international standards and Ukrainian, because all terms have long been included, they ATK pryynyalysya distribute the radyanskyy dates and other items. Or psyaty danger of MSM in such articles as Gay and others. His invitation I did the first time. And nowhere spelled out, considered spam and what is not in the rules ni. Tsoho wiki. Instead, "spamlyat" invitation anyone wiki. And on user behavior Jphwra, who called me "idiot". Violated writing my articles or improvements when working with template "writing", and at the same time put Nav ydalennya more than 10 articles, some of which are not even informed about the real authors. Matthew Shepard Naprkylad article! He was motivated by the fact that the bar is red link! Although his articles have a lot of those who do not meet the criteria of significance at all. The article he argued removal as "the importance of the project?" The article as Hardkiss, it is not surprising that thought put to delete article Kazaky. All my complaints to administrators simply wiped out, although yatam explain the behavior of all the people who cry out to me althoughbe blocked by something. The same is arbitrariness in the Russian Misplaced Pages. Curator LGBT blocked by some trifle, like most LGBT contributors. Although they were good Wikipedian. And regarding rights sektour and freedom - these marginalized - in nyhu political agenda spelled "fight antimoral Western propaganda" in one form or another. These parties are the same as the marginal pro and recently the same strength or their followers burned historic Kyiv cinema "October" and then blocked another theater, where he was to appear LGBT film. Do not lie, I'm writing here is not about homophobia, as Western people see everything very clearly. What I chose not to remain silent, others, and say - that's the difference. And so all of a school, and just as Misplaced Pages. Ukrainian Vikipediyinichym no different from the Ukrainian society, and now - and in general - supports rhetoric rightwing groups and religious organizations. I never their faith no imposed when homophobes active Wikipedian-in cap put articles on LGBT deprived neitralnosti rants about "traditional tsinnnosti."

Homophobia - that's what I wanted to tell. And my mistakes, nothing to do. On my page in Ukrainian by Misplaced Pages (at the end) is the link to my contribution and everyone can tell whether it is "homophobic propaganda" or so terrible to say that I have really bad Wikipedian what a pity that yevandalom (to quote Mr. Green Zero). The only difference is that I'm the only one who dared to write about it at the risk of their articles. Others wrote to me in private messages and support because they are afraid to say it out loud because of their contribution to do the same as with me, or block. In the words of Mr. A1 - "Misplaced Pages is censorship." I do not know in English, but in Ukrainian, censorship is a small range of users that are administrators and patrol and abuse their powers for LGBT discrimination. A fault for all comers, the EU's my article on the blog (Ukrainian).

Hikaru cite comment regarding renaming: First or "homosexuality" or "homosexuality" is not a native words in Ukrainian language. The term "homosexuality" moved to the Ukrainian language in English at a time when it is mistakenly considered a disease and then in our totalitarian country punishable by imprisonment. Now the disease is not considered either in the world or in Ukraine, why we have to use outdated erroneous terms of foreign origin that have been imposed by the then government? Second suffixes -ism and -ist in Ukrainian language (as in Russian, Belarusian) denote 1. deliberately chosen ideology (fascism, feminism, communism) 2. artistic directions (romanticism, classicism) 3. The concept of language properties (neologism phraseologism). Scientifically proven that homosexuality - it's not a conscious choice. Third term "homosexuality" is not scientifically justified and violates the uniformity of language - "homo" is a prefix, like "heterogeneous", "bi-", "trans" with all of these words used "sexy" (the difference in these words but their meaning). In addition to the examples of "fascism", "feminism", "communism" we use the adjective "feminist", "communist", "fascist". Did anyone says Ukrainian "homoseksualistychnyy" or "homoseksualistskyy"? And finally the whole world believes the term "homosexuality" is not politically correct, and the LGBT community does not use it for self (while homophobic and homophobic organizations deliberately use the term "homosexuality" for humiliation and contempt for LGBT demonstrations). So what is used in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages is a word that violates the Ukrainian language is considered derogatory, not scientifically justified, and has a number of other contradictions? Just because it is not we imposed our elected government 70 years ago? The word "homosexuality" all of the above issues and controversies denied. Definitely against.

That discussion renaming dstatno even a simple translation to understand what is happening: . Numerous voices and arguments ignored. And do the same by users who have power and use it against LGBT people, as it was deleting the category "Writers gay"

Even if all this does not help, English-speaking people need to know that information about LGBT people in Ukraine deliberately distorted, and instead of consensus homophobes use their powers everywhere to LGBT travyly the streets, burning theater, attacked gay clubs, or shot, both the NPT; What Should Misplaced Pages? Neitralno inform people about all significant phenomena that occur in life, or cause a wide range of readers hated minority? Excuse me, is a kind of hell and nowhere to turn... --Rayan Riener (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Google translate is not, of course, the best way to express your point of view. It is not the best way to understand your opponent's either. You wrote in the beginning: "Absolutely agree." But according to what you wrote next, you didn't quite understand what Nickk meant. IMHO, even if he wrote it in Ukrainian - you wouldn't either. Because you don't want to.

As for me, I am not homophobic. I didn't take part in any of those discussions that all of you mention above. But I am against ANY propaganda, especially in Misplaced Pages articles. So, @Rayan Riener: Learn what is neutrality in Misplaced Pages and start to make contributions according to it. Stop being so emotional and biased about the topics you work upon - and in a while you'll see that there's no real homophobia addressed against you or your contributions (of course it will exist among users as any other POVs do, but it'll simply become irrelevant). You do this - the problem vanishes. Why do I think so? Because if I suddenly started working upon articles like those you do - no one would be able to reasonably accuse me in being prejudiced.-- Piramid ion  21:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Woe translation... But I repeat. I speak for all LGBT wikipedians who are intimidated and overwhelmed. They agree with everything I say. Regarding quality I've written - something that is critical of me for some reason does not apply to all others. Fault-finding, provocation, violation neitralnosti to promote hatred towards LGBT people. Subsequently, the appeal will be submitted in relation to this, writing that would not be me, but which I will sign and including all. --Rayan Riener (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: Someone mentioned an article called "homosexual propaganda" on the Russian WP. Russia has a law about "homosexual propaganda" which has sparked much controversy and outrage, to say the least. it is not surprising that there be an article about it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC).

David Auerbach

Are messages like this what you had in mind when you extended the olive branch?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:11, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's precisely what I had in mind. BLP violations are not ok, and a journalist falsely accused of a position that he does not hold and did not write has a right to respond here. I would like to repeat here my point that there are plenty of good Wikipedians who will look after the article, and due to your conflict with Mr. Auerbach it would be best if you just stepped away from the whole thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

This is frankly ridiculous. There was no conflict with Mr. Auerbach until he came onto the site and made one by failing to assume good faith in my original edit weeks ago. I retracted all of my statements about him where I characterized his message to me as a threat. I gave him a heartfelt apology and told him why I reacted the way I did because he asked me to apologize and he just goes "don't believe you" and feels that my subsequent reaction to this is evidence enough. I am disappointed by this turn of events. There is no valid reason I should step away from the article. There are dozens of editors who have come to Misplaced Pages for the sole reason of rewriting the article to favor their fringe movement and they remain untouchable or undeterred because they have no real dog to lose if they get banned. But just because one writer is upset with the paraphrased criticism I wrote about weeks ago that has been rewritten already and that the various editors below acknowledge wasn't entirely incorrect means I have to step down? I have no agenda with this page. I have no personal conflict with Mr. Auerbach other than my disgust with how all this has panned out. This has somehow given the people who want to silence me for opposing their opinion are using it as an excuse to have me topic banned when there have been much more egregious violations of BLP that they have performed but remain untouched. But I'm at fault because Gamergate is just the latest in a line of nerd groups who have made me out to be the Wikidevil incarnate. The very fact I'm arguing this with you is probably making the Gamergate camp on reddit giddy with excitement that you might personally ban me for doing so. And Mr. Auerbach would not even know my user name if The Devil's Advocate hadn't plastered it at the top of the discussion on the talk page about Mr. Auerbach's complaint to you.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 11:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I recommend that you take a couple of days off at least, to reassess. There have been a great many complaints about your behavior, of course not all justified, but enough justified that you should realize that you are making yourself a part of the problem rather than a part of the solution. Let others take it on.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Barely any complaints are justified. And the article remains fully protected for another week. All that's going on now is angry talk page and notice board discussions.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:00, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

If barely any complaints are justified and if nothing is going on, now seems as good a time as any for you to step away. WP:OWN takes many forms.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if taking a break while there's a discussion regarding topic banning me is going on will help matters in that regard.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:03, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

To the contrary, I believe that many or even most discussants would take a voluntary stepping away from the article as a wonderful gesture of good faith aimed at preserving Misplaced Pages's reputation for neutrality and seriousness about biographical concerns. I know that I would personally appreciate and value it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Ryulong, please stop groundlessly accusing me of "threatening" you on my talk page and the Gamergate talk page. It is not appreciated. Auerbachkeller (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Saying he threatened you is shameful and should be dealt with Loganmac (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

A request that accuses me of slander, even if it is accompanied by the word please and the request that I never write about this man again is questionable. And I have not used the word "threat" on this page. When several editors who have been involved in disputes with me in the past and all have sent messages to Mr. Auerbach informing him of my wrongdoings, I feel as if there is an effort by these editors to utilize Mr. Auerbach's clout to their advantage. Loganmac in particular has been vicious to me in offsite social media where he heaps been spreading the lies about me at encyclopedia dramatica to the rest of the offsite collusion against me on Misplaced Pages.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:06, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, why are you bringing up stuff that happened off site? To quote you: "What I do off of Misplaced Pages does not have anything to do with what I do on Misplaced Pages". Bit hypocritical, don't you think? 24.224.200.156 (talk) 03:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Because they keep bringing up my offsite activities on Misplaced Pages as evidence against me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:54, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Which differs how, exactly, from the repeated complaints you have made about the offsite activity of others, including in this very discussion? 74.12.93.242 (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• I just came across this by chance. I'm one of ED's admins. No one has mentioned you on our site in regards to GamerGate. In fact, no one has any idea who you are and it was only when I read this that I even found out we wrote about you at all in an article that hardly anyone read. Please don't use us to justify your biased editing. Thanks. (I won't be returning to continue this argument) Some ed guy (talk) 21:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  It doesn't matter if nothing about Gamergate is on the page. People on 8chan and Reddit are using it regardless.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:09, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

"I have not use the word 'threat' on this page". The allegation concerned " talk page and the Gamergate talk page". It is not hard to cite your use of such language there (example). 74.12.93.242 (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

And Russavia chiming in against me is really sweet.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Ryulong: It isn't clear what you expect Jimbo Wales or the WMF to do, or why you are being so hostile here. If you think that either a new editor or an unregistered editor is a ban-evading sockpuppet, you know where sockpuppet investigations are. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Because Jimbo was in direct contact with Mr. Auerbach before he edited Misplaced Pages early this morning and this afternoon to get me banned at the behest of all of these other editors.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:08, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

And also Russavia was heavily editing this page when I left my message earlier in the day (, , ). I'm fairly certain those have all been blocked for evasion and being proxies.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

• I have since apologized to Mr. Auerbach for my actions over the past 12 hours.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not following this closely, so if I've missed something, I apologise but:

1 November, commenting on an article by Auerbach, Elias Isquith says,

By the end of the piece, Auerbach ends up in the exact same unfortunate position that the people who fetishize moderation in our politics so often find themselves in: offering a sweeping condemnation of both sides that negates any group or individual responsibility and lumps in reformers and reactionaries under the umbrella of society.

and concludes,

The women bombarded with violence and abuse, the men hurling invective at anyone challenging their privilege; spurred by his (Auerbach's) unexamined need to find common ground, both, Auerbach writes, should share in the blame.

1 November, Ryulong paraphrases this in Gamergate controversy as:

(Isquith) wrote that Auerbach put blame on both parties in the dispute for the larger problems, criticizing his (Auerbach's) insistence that women harassed and threatened and men attacking those who challenged their privilege should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become.

8 November, Auerbach tweets,

Right now, the Misplaced Pages Gamergate article offensively misstates Elias Isquith's portrayal of my views. Get it together, @jimmy_wales.

Seems like a pretty fair paraphrase to me, though the expression could be more elegant. No comment on whether the snippet belongs in the article per relevance, etc. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, apparently Auerbachkeller took exception to Ryulong calling what Auerbachkeller requested (paraphrase: 'please don't write on Misplaced Pages about me'), 'a threat' (on his page but not here) but no threat was intended, and Ryulong retracted and apologized - thus the discussion became about the discussion (as is sometimes the case) and not the about the edit. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Yea, but I read the article and don't see what Auerbach is complaining so loudly about. It looks like Anthony cole has it right. I've never edited the article, but have now read the Isquith article and do not see any kind of misrepresentation of what Isquith stated in his article. Whether Auerbach is offended by the Isquith characterization or not is between those two. There is nothing wrong with Wiki editors citing either source. Dave Dial (talk) 01:41, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yep. I am doing a bit of a topic-swerve - thanks to the broad thread title. Still. This particular bit of our article (the bit about an article about an article) is not a misstatement of Isquith's portrayal, as Auerbach claims it is. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

(ec)You can ask User:Auerbachkeller. I myself am wondering if even were Ryulong wrong about his summary of Isquith, does Aurbachkeller think it was malicious, or was it just a mistake? Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:57, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I assume David is watching this. Perhaps he has a problem with Ryulong's "insistence" - that does seem a little umm editorial. Still, I'm not seeing offensive misstatement. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

@Auerbachkeller: and ask. He's probably not WP aware enough to check a watchlist. --DHeyward (talk) 04:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I did ping David. I've just read his subtle and intelligent Slate article. Isquith's characterisation of it is just stupid and doesn't deserve repeating in our article. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:13, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) I'm sorry, what? You have two published writers writing on the same subject with opposing views of the issues, so the NPOV approach is to exclude one because a Misplaced Pages editor thinks it's stupid? Probably, we should back up with (cut-down on) all this opinionizing, but most of all Misplaced Pages editors' opinionizing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:25, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Just my opinion. Auerbach doesn't say what Isquith says he says. He certainly doesn't say the victims of the misogyny and psychopathy have to share the blame for the present situation. Isquith owes him an apology for that insulting straw man. I wonder if Isquith will be as quick to acknowledge his error as Ryulong was. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, just looking at it without opinionizing, it appears that Isquith writes that that's the implication of the Auerbach piece; whether you nor Auerbach are convinced by Isquith is beside the point. They are perfectly capable of pleading their rhetorical joust further if they wish to do so, and they have their platform - but that's not Misplaced Pages's purpose - this is not the platform for that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

(You really should reconsider lecturing people about what they can and can't say here.) Isquith: "The women bombarded with violence and abuse, the men hurling invective at anyone challenging their privilege; spurred by his unexamined need to find common ground, both, Auerbach writes, should share in the blame." --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

A short response is not a lecture and reading multiple policy pages, they are about what Misplaced Pages is and is not for. (Besides no quotes, means Isquith was not quoting) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:59, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Let me explain this to you. Here is the whole paragraph from Iquith:

That, really, is about as clear a testament to the perils of fetishizing moderation as you’re likely to get. Faced by Gamergaters on one side and SJWs on the other, Auerbach, following a pattern observers of American politics know all too well, maneuvers himself right into the middle. “In truth, we bear collective responsibility for these larger problems,” he writes. The women bombarded with violence and abuse, the men hurling invective at anyone challenging their privilege; spurred by his unexamined need to find common ground, both, Auerbach writes, should share in the blame.

Here is what he referenced in Auerbach's piece:

When Polygon editor Ben Kuchera tweets, “The legacy of the hashtag will be in its ability to prove how terribly this industry treats women,” he makes no sense. Gamergate is mostly made up of consumers, not industry members. (Developer Brianna Wu has pointed out that Gamergate is merely a symptom of a much larger problem.) Through sleight of hand, Gamergate absorbs the sins of gaming companies and media organizations. It’s a neat trick, making Gamergate a convenient target of ostracism that serves to make the rest of us feel better about ourselves and non-Gamergate elements of society. It has led to the endless flame wars that do nothing but prolong harassment, rather than solutions that would end it, in the hopes that if people scream loud enough, Gamergate will go away. In truth, we bear collective responsibility for these larger problems. Not just gaming, not just the Internet, but society itself has a sexism problem, a misogyny problem, a race problem, and a harassment problem. America is Gamergate. Start admitting that, and Gamergate starts dissolving.

The statement about "larger problems" is not referring to GamerGate at all, but to the issue of sexism and diversity in the gaming industry and culture. So the suggestion that Auerbach said women being threatened and men attacking "should both be held responsible for what Gamergate had become" is simply garbage as nothing of that nature was stated. A bigger problem exists with how Ryulong phrases it. By stating Isquith is "criticizing insistence" Ryulong is presenting what follows as though it were simply a factual statement about Auerbach's views, rather than Isquith's opinion about Auerbach's views. In that respect alone it is clearly a BLP violation.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. My sloppy reading. I've just reread them and what you say is spot on. I might run all my future comments by you for moderation, if that's OK. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:53, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Reasonable reading but I have two quibbles. First Isquith's wording "women bombarded with violence and abuse, men hurling invective" doesn't sound like it's meant to describe the "larger problems" that are longstanding in the "industry" or society at large despite quoting Auerbach. This seems intended for GamerGate/recent events. Second I wouldn't necessarily read "Isquith is criticizing Auerbach's insistence that..." to mean what follows is Auerbach verbatim or as he would describe himself. Likelier what follows is Isquith's reading of Auerbach, since that is the critique being laid out.

It could be much clearer. Gratefully it was removed. Reasonable people misread or disagree with your reading (Anthonyhcole here, many editors on the controversy's Talk page), and Ryulong's apology admits he can be a clumsy writer - which was the section's greater problem. That's strong evidence of good faith, which should be assumed anyway. Emarkcd (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

@Ryulong:@Auerbachkeller: Reading the original post, the use of the word "slander" and the sentence "I request that you not cite me, cite other articles about me, or otherwise write about me in the future on Misplaced Pages." does seem to have some superficial similarity with the wording of a "cease and desist letter" to my non-legal-expert ears. Misplaced Pages generally frowns upon cease and desist letters and subjects them to a "Misplaced Pages:No legal threats" policy. I think moving forward it is important that people can agree that either a) no cease and desist notice has actually been made, or b) the standard NLT is being followed. Meanwhile, if it is a BLP violation to suggest, incorrectly but in good faith, that someone is making a "legal threat", then we need to rename that policy and come up with a new acronym that is more sensitive to such issues. It is not practical to have a policy against "legal threats" if you can't safely raise the issue for consideration. Wnt (talk) 17:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually it sounds like a "Don't violate BLP policies and you are not objective enough to write about me." Inventing a legal threat out of a "Please stop dragging my name and work through the mud" is beyond the pale. There is no "or I will do X" as there is in such demand letters. It would also use the word "libel", not "slander". He also didn't have the Slate lawyer come here and make the request, he came here himself. Please don't bite the newbie while playing armchair lawyer. --DHeyward (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Then Mr. Auerbach should have spoken to Mr. Isquith rather than act just like Gamergate and bother some powerless editor on Misplaced Pages. His dislike of my paraphrasing of someone else' so pinion of his writing is not a BLP violation in the slightest.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Then you have no idea what a BLP violation is and you should stop writing and quoting people that puts them in a negative light. Isquith is not the issue. If you are so tone deaf that you did not see your writing as being particularly sharp, you should step away. Repeating that you think it's someone else's problem is also problematic given your "sincere and heartfelt" apology. --DHeyward (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I can only second what DHeyward is saying here. And "act just like Gamergate" is really an expression of bias unbecoming for a Misplaced Pages editor. If you have such strong feelings about the article, then step away and let someone else edit it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:31, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. I wanted people to shake hands and say there was no legal threat and it wasn't taken as one, not more ... this. This polarization of "GamerGate" into sides mystifies me; I feel like I'm staring at two factions of black ants fighting one another through a telescope from orbit, unable to discern how they can possibly figure out which side is which. I wish I saw people standing up for unbridled freedom of speech, but all I see on both sides are vague statements interspersed with bad ideas for action. GamerGate is nothing but a word - it's not even a limited forum like alt.tasteless, but a collection of discussions on different commercial sites, wikis, blogs, etc. And instead of treating it like that, simply listing the forums and notable publications about aspects of each without taking clear sides, Misplaced Pages seems stuck in this notion that everybody who ever used a word can be regarded as one entity, so that one side can make a comment about the social criticism and the other can make a comment about the harassment and they think they're talking about the same definition of the same people, when in reality they're each talking about how they imagine their particular true Scotsmen might be. Add to this simply a low level of discourse -- Misplaced Pages hides how low when people use and misuse policy to avoid looking directly at the primary sources they are citing, things that wouldn't be fit to post on Usenet but get reviewed at the Washington Post -- what we have makes nailing Jello to a tree look like the trivial exercise it actually is. What I know is that one small section of Video game journalism (an article which also mentions Auerbach, by the way) has far more substantive content than the Gamergate article. Whatever is going on here, all the arguments and arbitration and so forth, it's pathological. A hashtag is a hashtag, principles are principles, and these are different things. Wnt (talk) 22:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Just to point out, if "act like GamerGate" is an expression of bias that should be enough for Ryulong to stop editing the article, then DHeyward's "5 guys burger and fries" comment on this page a few days ago against Ryulong and others, a clear reference to the "5 guys" slander and misogyny about Zoe Quinn that started GamerGate should be considered the same or worse. I'm not sure why Ryulong should be informally topic-banned for being biased towards one side while DHeyward gets to snidely imply that he slept with Quinn in exchange for working on the article, or User:Loganmac can make 100+ threads in the GamerGate Reddit forum about Ryulong's actions on-wiki and in his twitter, without any noise made about it. I don't think anyone's going to be able to step back from the article and let these mystery other people work on it until either the whole thing dies down or Arbcom topicbans half/most of the editors to the page. --PresN 22:27, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

You are correct. I wrote that when another editor brought off-wiki trash about me regarding GG to on-wiki and then was complaining about "5 horseman" and I flipped it to what you referenced above. I apologize and have removed the reference. It was unnecessary. --DHeyward (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I can say he acted like Gamergate did because rather than focusing his attention on a named person with power he decided I was the reason for his ills because my name is bandied about in the Gamergate communities as the source of their ills when it comes to Misplaced Pages. I wrote something that got edited and changed by someone else into something he found fault with but because I was the original author of the paragraph I'm the one who needs to be banned. I'm the one who apparently has a conflict with him. It's ridiculous.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry Ryulong. The admins seem to have decided it was my fault, so I'll be taking my leave from Misplaced Pages. You can, it would seem, say whatever you want about me, true or false, even though I wish you wouldn't. Bye. Auerbachkeller (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. This is also not what I wanted. We shouldn't have to choose one editor or the other, just as we shouldn't be deciding which side of a controversy is "fringe" and shouldn't be covered thoroughly. In writing an encyclopedia, when somebody wins, generally everybody loses. Wnt (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I have people tweeting my name at Adam Baldwin. Please handle this before he comes to yell at me, too.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:41, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

If the subject is a dispute of the events and you are conclusive, guess what, that's a fine example of bias, even if you didn't want it to be, cheers, ~ R.T.G 16:39, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

some sorta "cha-cha-chinging" not necessarily bad?

just read Walter Isaacson's new tome (your pic is second-to-last on its 6-page-long, just-before-the-book's-"Introduction" Timeline, by the way; the last picture is of IBM's mega-computer Watson competing on the set of Jeopardy!: but, alas, the relevant chapter notes that Watson's database includes the entire contents of Misplaced Pages!) and am thinking that, for an ability to really leverage wikipedia's strengths, there should be some means of generating a (non-profit-dedicated) revenue stream thru some means of micro(??) payments? i dunno, all commercial users - IBM's, etc., perhaps? - could be charged, according to some means of calibrating their use? just thinkin'.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

• I think Hodgdon is probably right. Consider that Misplaced Pages might be worth about 4 billion Euros if it accepted ads. Not to mention we wouldn't have to run those "Personal appeal" ads anymore. Everymorning talk to me 00:59, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
• Nevertheless, it should be noted that, in 2008, Mr. Wales said that "While I continue to oppose the introduction of any advertising in Misplaced Pages, I also continue to agree that the discussion should evolve beyond a simple binary." See here. Everymorning talk to me 01:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
• It should also be noted that such a move would lose many of the remaining dedicated editors and other contributors to Wikimedia projects, who are willing to do what we do here in part because we trust our work will not be prostituted. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• If the proposal above contains something along the lines of requesting that any paid editors or other editors with a clear COI, like perhaps being employees of the firm, be perhaps charged for the privilege of editing in the field of their COI, I guess I could see that being acceptable. Preferably the charge would be rather minimal, and perhaps only billed in situations where, for instance, pending changes made by the COI editor are approved by an independent editor. There would have to be some sort of rather serious oversight to ensure that the companies involved don't try to sneak in covert editors, and that might make the whole idea unworkable, I don't know, but it also might, maybe, help bring some of our content related to various commercial entities and pursuits better than it is now. I regret to say that so far as I can tell a lot of our roughly "commercial"-related articles are much worse than they could be. John Carter (talk) 02:16, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

What part of FREE are you people not understanding? Is it the F, the R, or the E? This is beating a dead horse and has been discussed and debated and proposed and shot down for YEARS. Don't start it up again. Nyth83 (talk) 04:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

• Yup. I am willing to donate my time to a free/non-profit encyclopedia. The day Misplaced Pages accepts paid ads is the day a retirement banner goes up on my user page. Resolute 14:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
• This is a truly bad idea.
  • 1st - we don't need the money. You'll see a couple of banner ads per year and can dismiss them immediately. So it costs you nothing beyond 2 seconds of your attention per year if you don't want to donate. And the ad campaigns raise ~$50 million over a couple of weeks.
  • 2nd - It goes against the basic principle that essentially everything on Misplaced Pages should be completely free (beyond attribution) for anybody to use. Figuring out who needs to pay what and charging it would ultimately limit distribution (even if it's only to folks who mistakenly believe that they would be charged, but don't read the long forms needed to decide who pays), and would cost millions for monitoring, billing, legal, etc. i.e. running the meters.
  • 3rd - it would ultimately give the payers some leverage on the WMF and drive away small donors and editors who donate their time.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:45, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Do Away with RFC/U

This is a heads up for all those who lurk here. For better or worse there is a proposal to "Do Away with RFC/U" at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals) with such strong support that it was snow closed for a short time. -- PBS (talk) 13:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

On seeing this and reviewing the various threads at VP I was prompted to open a thread about the ancient proposal of WP:OM. Please consider that thread if the RFC/U issue is of interest to you. I know I've wondered where the ombudsman is, and that is why I know it exists. Yo Jimbo! Thanks for all your outside commitment and dedication to reasoning and upholding the original concepts which spawned all of this mighty stuff. You usually have your finger on it so don't grace this page without a bit of respex for the dictater. :P ~ R.T.G 16:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)