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:::In reviewing the high quality sources, most call to Gjoni's post as a set of accusations/allegations, including the relationship one. eg , , , , , for example, so we should be staying with that wording. Since the Quinn/Grayson relationship has been affirmed (and as North stated, there's nothing wrong with what two consenting adults do, that's not our place to judge), one Gjoni's accusations is "true". As I've mentioned before, the wording in the body, calling the specific allegation that is clearly agreed to be disproven by all press across the board as "false" is just fine, that's accurate as it's identifying the singular accusation; it's just the section title, as a summary statement, that gets us in trouble if we're talking wording precision here. | :::In reviewing the high quality sources, most call to Gjoni's post as a set of accusations/allegations, including the relationship one. eg , , , , , for example, so we should be staying with that wording. Since the Quinn/Grayson relationship has been affirmed (and as North stated, there's nothing wrong with what two consenting adults do, that's not our place to judge), one Gjoni's accusations is "true". As I've mentioned before, the wording in the body, calling the specific allegation that is clearly agreed to be disproven by all press across the board as "false" is just fine, that's accurate as it's identifying the singular accusation; it's just the section title, as a summary statement, that gets us in trouble if we're talking wording precision here. | ||
:::That said, maybe the best solution is to change the section title to focus on the core aspect of the section, the series of harassment attacks, and not get so caught up in the naming out the allegations in the section title, leaving the body as is. Maybe "Harassment attacks towards female video game developers"? "Online harassment of Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian"? Keeping the section title focused on the harassment aspects would resolve much of the issue here. --] (]) 07:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC) | :::That said, maybe the best solution is to change the section title to focus on the core aspect of the section, the series of harassment attacks, and not get so caught up in the naming out the allegations in the section title, leaving the body as is. Maybe "Harassment attacks towards female video game developers"? "Online harassment of Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian"? Keeping the section title focused on the harassment aspects would resolve much of the issue here. --] (]) 07:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
::::No, I don't think so. We're going to make ''crystal clear'' that the substantive allegations against Quinn and Grayson — the only ones which matter in terms of the controversy — are false. As '']'' , {{tq| It was alleged that an affair with Nathan Grayson, a journalist at the website Kotaku, had led to favourable critical treatment of her game. It was later established that Grayson had only written about Quinn once, before they started a relationship, and had never reviewed Depression Quest. This did nothing to faze Quinn’s detractors, who took it as evidence of a conspiracy. Users from the messageboards Reddit – a sprawling series of communities – and 4chan – largely the trolls in the internet’s basement – hurled false accusations that Quinn exchanged sex for reviews.}} "False accusations against Quinn and Grayson" |
::::No, I don't think so. We're going to make ''crystal clear'' that the substantive allegations against Quinn and Grayson — the only ones which matter in terms of the controversy — are false. As '']'' , {{tq| It was alleged that an affair with Nathan Grayson, a journalist at the website Kotaku, had led to favourable critical treatment of her game. It was later established that Grayson had only written about Quinn once, before they started a relationship, and had never reviewed Depression Quest. This did nothing to faze Quinn’s detractors, who took it as evidence of a conspiracy. Users from the messageboards Reddit – a sprawling series of communities – and 4chan – largely the trolls in the internet’s basement – hurled false accusations that Quinn exchanged sex for reviews.}} That is, substantively, what occurred. "False accusations against Quinn and Grayson" is an accurate and neutral description of this fact. My God, Masem, you're really, really, really trying desperately hard to make this look better for Gamergate, aren't you? It's bleedingly obvious at this point. Please stop trying to water down the '''fact''' that Gamergate was founded by a herd of trolls smearing Quinn and Grayson with false accusations. ] (]) 07:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC) | ||
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"Conspiracy theories in the United States"
When was adding this category discussed? The only mention of it being labeled a conspiracy theory is not even about the movement itself, it's a single mention by Leigh Alexander, someone involved in the controversy saying some of it is based "on bizarre conspiracy theories", yet another attempt at controlling the narrative, albeit this one a sneaky one. This should be removed until a consensus is reached Loganmac (talk) 02:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, the core of GG is described as a conspiracy theory throughout the article's sources (and other reliable sources). I'll put some of the examples at the end to make this more readable, but basically, I think that it's uncontroversial -- obviously most GG sources allege a conspiracy (accusations of collision and conspiracy are at the core of what they feel are ethical breaches, after all); it's just that they dislike having that framed as 'conspiracy theory' as opposed to, I guess, 'conspiracy fact'. But either way, just a quick look over the article's sources show that most of the ones we're relying on for a general overview describe GG as being based around conspiracy theories (this is just from a random grab of some of them -- I'm not going to read every single one of the 40+ sources, but these are all clearly from reliable publications.) If anything, I think that these make it clear that we should cover the conspiracy-theory nature of the controversy in more detail rather than just via categorization:
- The Verge's article describes "The conspiracy theory at the core of Gamergate..."
- The quoted response from DiGRA likewise describes it as a conspiracy theory.
- The Guardian article says: "And ultimately, those members of the gaming community who distrust the games press, have a really wonderful option: make the alternative. Instead of constructing strange conspiracy theories and flooding games sites with vitriolic comments, withdraw entirely."
- The Daily Beast article says: "On one side are calls for reason and equality; on the other are the conspiracy theorists who fund a “documentary” intended to “shed light on the truth: that the SJWs have been the ones using manipulation and intimidation to push their agenda forward and that the mainstream media has accepted their story uncritically.”
- The New York Magazine article: "...I was inundated with angry tweets from the movement’s indignant supporters. You don’t get it, they insisted. This is about ethics in journalism. They often pointed me to long, pretty involved conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things, that various gaming websites were colluding to attack the “gamer” identity they held so dear, or that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage."
- The Week describes GG as existing in a "hermetically sealed bubble of conspiracy nonsense".
- There's many more (even the Forbes article, which IIRC we're not using at the moment, makes repeated references to the movement being based around conspiracy theories, describing the earliest video as one that "...speculates on a feminist/social justice illuminati that are taking over gaming, and accused Quinn’s parent company, Silverstring Media, of being a part of that conspiracy.") Gamergate's accusations are described as conspiracy theories throughout most of the reliable sources that make up the basis of the current article. --Aquillion (talk) 03:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Hatting off-topic commentary about others and WP:SOAP, both of which violate WP:GS/GG, keep it up and there will be sanctions. Dreadstar ☥ 08:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC) |
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Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from Loganmac, who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by Aquillion patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as Aquillion usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage. Enough. This has got to stop. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
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If that many sources use variations on "conspiracy theory" wording that category should probably stay. I think there's less of a case to be made for the "Social Justice" category though. This article is ridiculously out of place in that category page, and that category seems really bizarre for this article. Hustlecat 05:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- the relation is the "anti social justice" motivations and actions as described by as many sources. is "anti social justice" a cat? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The US bit is totally wrong. There's been quite a bit of coverage from British sources, and a reasonable number of nonenglish articles. HalfHat 16:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
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Remove Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states and replace with Category:Conspiracy_theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. HalfHat 16:16, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit protected}}
template. Oppose as Category:Conspiracy theories based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic doesn't exist, whereas Category:Conspiracy theories in the United States does. — {{U|Technical 13}} 17:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I meant Remove "Category:Conspiracy_theories_in_the_united_states" and replace with "Category:Conspiracy_theories" based on the large coverage from nonUS sources and lack of commentry from them saying it's a US topic. HalfHat 20:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- Funny, I read it the same way as Technical 13. Halfhat, your proposal seems reasonable and has my support. starship.paint ~ regal 09:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- support changing to broader "conspiracy theories" cat - i have never met a conspiracy theory that found an international boarder something it didnt want to hop and they nearly all end up with "international bankers" or "CIA and KGB". In this case we have the international scholar organization DIGRA based in Sweden and BMW based in Germany. Sarkeesian is a Canadian American and Quinn live(s)(d) in Canada. Yiannopoulos is British. There seems little that makes this limited to "United States". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Agree I'm not convinced the category is necessary, but if we are going to have it then the online nature of the movement precludes it from being strictly limited to the United States. Muscat Hoe (talk) 18:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 24 November 2014 (wikilink to Social Justice Warrior)
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The phrase "Social Justice Warrior" is used a few times in the article. Would someone mind wikilinking to the article on the phrase? Juno (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Given that the term has both negative connotations, and is a neogalism, I would think we shouldn't have a separate article on it; as I see it is at AFD, I'd wait to see the result that if the article stays, then a link is fine, but if it's deleted or merged, it is unneeded. --MASEM (t) 07:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Interestingly feminazi does have an article, though it may have just not been nominated for deletion yet. HalfHat 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's been around since the 1990s so has passed the NEO aspect. The article also gives a balanced view on the word's origins and its criticism to give it context and avoid being a POV article. I'm not saying it's perfect but its got more legs to stand on than the "SJW" article presently. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- As I understand it, as Masem stated, the term has been bouncing around for some time. However, to clarify, "SJW" is utilized by the Gamer Gate people on Twitter due to character restrictions. It might not hurt to include a kind of (for lack of a better word) dictionary of frequently used abbreviations like "SJW." Even if that is just a side note somewhere on the page.Kitsunedawn (talk) 04:08, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's been around since the 1990s so has passed the NEO aspect. The article also gives a balanced view on the word's origins and its criticism to give it context and avoid being a POV article. I'm not saying it's perfect but its got more legs to stand on than the "SJW" article presently. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Interestingly feminazi does have an article, though it may have just not been nominated for deletion yet. HalfHat 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft
I made this revert (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --TS 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. HalfHat 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — Strongjam (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? HalfHat 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest gender-based. Instead of severe we could use something like Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ..., but I think we can just go with severe or intense I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word rhetoric though, I also thought sentiment might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like These attacks often include what is reported as ..., but I'm not a big fan of that. — Strongjam (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — Strongjam (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. HalfHat 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." WP:OR / WP:V / WP:UNDUE are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how we achieve ""neutrality". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
These Hitler comparisons need to stop; it's not productive and is inflammatory. Either quit or be sanctioned. Dreadstar ☥ 07:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC) |
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I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. Tutelary (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --TS 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Hitler is evil/Did evil things is easy to find RSs for, doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should say those thngs. HalfHat 18:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
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Website
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We should add gamergate.me in the article as it is a aggregate website on GamerGate. - abhilashkrishn 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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Incoming FTC Guidelines
WP:FORUM |
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Apparently FTC is preparing an update to its guidelines and it is being associated to GamerGate. Is this information relevant to the article, if it gets verified by a trusted outlet or journalist? Eldritcher (talk) 00:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC) |
Unfounded allegations?
This is awkwardly phrased as allegations by definition are not based on facts or evidence, making the wording redundant. The RS's are mixed on usage between forms of accuse and allege but I would recommend False accusations if we're going to have a term in the section header as it appears to be a much more common phrasing. Muscat Hoe (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Muscat Hoe: I think we're in a bit of a sticky situation here. The most serious accusation, to quote the article, the relationship had resulted in Grayson publishing a positive review of Quinn's game is false. But this other accusation in the article ... among which was that Quinn had an affair with Kotaku journalist Nathan Grayson ... saw a response of Kotaku's editor-in-chief Stephen Totilo affirmed the existence of a relationship. So IMO it would be "mostly false accusations", but the section heading is already long enough. Not sure what to do here. starship.paint ~ regal 03:10, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- As previously discussed in the above hatted discussions, Starship, accusations or allegations about relationships between two consenting adults are non-sequiturs, immaterial and not a subject of reliably-sourced interest. There is no public interest or controversy in the existence of a romantic relationship between two people, and as the definition of "accusation" and "allegation" requires something illegal or wrong, it factually cannot be applied to Quinn and Grayson's relationship. The public interest and controversy in this matter is solely in regards to the potential for a conflict of interest in Grayson's coverage, which has been thoroughly disproven. Thus, "false allegations" or "false accusations" is correct.
- As soon as the article is unprotected, the header will be moved back to "false allegations" as was the longstanding consensus prior to Tellfair and Avono's edit-warring it out resulting in protection. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- In reviewing the high quality sources, most call to Gjoni's post as a set of accusations/allegations, including the relationship one. eg , , , , , for example, so we should be staying with that wording. Since the Quinn/Grayson relationship has been affirmed (and as North stated, there's nothing wrong with what two consenting adults do, that's not our place to judge), one Gjoni's accusations is "true". As I've mentioned before, the wording in the body, calling the specific allegation that is clearly agreed to be disproven by all press across the board as "false" is just fine, that's accurate as it's identifying the singular accusation; it's just the section title, as a summary statement, that gets us in trouble if we're talking wording precision here.
- That said, maybe the best solution is to change the section title to focus on the core aspect of the section, the series of harassment attacks, and not get so caught up in the naming out the allegations in the section title, leaving the body as is. Maybe "Harassment attacks towards female video game developers"? "Online harassment of Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian"? Keeping the section title focused on the harassment aspects would resolve much of the issue here. --MASEM (t) 07:24, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, I don't think so. We're going to make crystal clear that the substantive allegations against Quinn and Grayson — the only ones which matter in terms of the controversy — are false. As The Telegraph notes,
It was alleged that an affair with Nathan Grayson, a journalist at the website Kotaku, had led to favourable critical treatment of her game. It was later established that Grayson had only written about Quinn once, before they started a relationship, and had never reviewed Depression Quest. This did nothing to faze Quinn’s detractors, who took it as evidence of a conspiracy. Users from the messageboards Reddit – a sprawling series of communities – and 4chan – largely the trolls in the internet’s basement – hurled false accusations that Quinn exchanged sex for reviews.
That is, substantively, what occurred. "False accusations against Quinn and Grayson" is an accurate and neutral description of this fact. My God, Masem, you're really, really, really trying desperately hard to make this look better for Gamergate, aren't you? It's bleedingly obvious at this point. Please stop trying to water down the fact that Gamergate was founded by a herd of trolls smearing Quinn and Grayson with false accusations. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, I don't think so. We're going to make crystal clear that the substantive allegations against Quinn and Grayson — the only ones which matter in terms of the controversy — are false. As The Telegraph notes,
Protected edit request on 25 November 2014
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Please replicate this edit from the draft in the mainspace article, in enforcement of WP:NFCC. There is no evidence this image (File:Christina Hoff Sommers.jpg) is actually free. Up for deletion at commons. CIreland (talk) 13:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support removal. I've checked the commons image, and the licensing appears faulty. I would think that Sommers would be open to providing a free image for us to use but until then we need to remove the present one as it will likely be deleted off commons. (Normally a bot would remove deleted Commons images but I think full prot, it won't work on that). --MASEM (t) 15:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Could someone try to contact her? HalfHat 15:54, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
8chan
This belongs with WP:ARBCOM, possibly WP:AN and/or whatever outside authorities you deem necessary; but not here. Dreadstar ☥ 04:19, 26 November 2014 (UTC) |
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Yep: I've seen the thread at 8chan dedicated to (a) gaming Arbcom to dominate this page and, secondarily, to (b) threatening me. Examining whether police are needed immediately. At least two frequent contributors to this page are openly conspiring there. Arbcom, admins, and others have already been notified, but I think it's only fair to warn editors of this page that they may be next. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
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Christian Science Monitor article
Generally more a focus on the doxxing nature of GG. There might be more to add from this but a couple things that this can add to sourcing: 1) it details the part of the Streisand effect - censorship of GG at 4chan - which could use more sourcing; 2) Mentions Jenn Frank's leaving VG journalism after supporting Quinn 3) It mentions the circulation of questionable photos of Quinn which was also part of her harassment. --MASEM (t) 07:08, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
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