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1998 gay staffer incident

Let's discuss this here before any further edit warring takes place. I've only taken a cursory glance at the material so far, but the story does seem to be supported by reliable sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:05, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I am completely impartial to the subject and controversies, but BLP violations should be taken very seriously, as there are real legal concerns here. At quick glance I didn't think it was fit for this article. Upon a closer look: The source that supports homosexuals should be shot is a dead link. The quote There comes a time when your convictions take precedence over your job, your title and your status is not in the provided source. This source does not mention McDonald at all. Finally, this is not an article about McDonald.

For the record, per WP:BLP, "contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." These are not just BLP violations, but serious BLP violations. Removing it was the right thing to do. I do not think the content should be added back, but if consensus indicates otherwise, better sources are going to be needed, and the tone will need to be changed to not sound as disparaging. If you want to say McDonald's actions were the reason for Babin's defeat, why don't we just say that? Briefly state why this is the case in a neutral tone. There's no need to go into detail about McDonald and all that negativity, this article is not about him. Do not disparage another living person when the only thing relevant is Babin's defeat.

The BLP noticeboard may be a good resource for resolving this, if need be. For now, please do not re-add the content in the same fashion as before. — MusikAnimal 23:33, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The source for the claim by McDonald that Babin said "homosexuals should be shot" doesn't work, but is available here via the wayback machine. The source for McDonald's resignation quote does work, but only if you have a (paid) subscription to the Star-Telegram's archive. Finally, the Washington Post source doesn't use McDonald's name, but it is about him and Babin (who it does mention by name). As I said earlier, the sources provided are to the Dallas Morning News, Star-Telegram, Houston Chronicle, Metro Weekly and Washington Post so I really don't think the content is "unsourced or poorly sourced" as BLP states. I am unsure though whether you mean the content is "disparaging" to Babin or to McDonald? Tiller54 (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I think the passage is disparaging to both Babin and McDonald. Overall I just think we're going into too much detail. I would try to state that McDonald came out, was offended Babin's position on homosexuality, which drove him to resign as campaign manager and in turn lead to Babin's defeat – or however you would like to word it. No need to include the quotes and allegations. You can say it's relevant all you want, but the point is that it does not add to the reader's understanding, it only disparages the subject. As for the sources, if this received that much news coverage you surely can find a source that does not require a subscription. We of course allow subscription-based sources but in a case like this where the material is contentious it's highly preferred we make it easily verifiable. That's my two cents, but again I am not familiar with the subject at all, I just want to ensure we are conveying relevant information within the confines of policy. — MusikAnimal 00:39, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

McDonald has been quite open about the controversy, even talking about his time working for Babin on his personal blog. McDonald's resignation quote is the only thing that's sourced to the subscription-only source so I would OK with removing that. McDonald's claim that Babin told him gays should be shot appears here but is particularly contentious and doesn't appear in any of the other sources, so we should probably remove that too. Muboshgu, what do you think?

As for the other sources, The Washington Post and the Chronicle, for example, don't require subscriptions. Actually, I'm surprised there's as much available coverage as this. Finding online sources for a low-profile Congressional race in the mid-90s in (what was then) a safe Democratic seat is usually all but impossible. Finding something in a newspaper archive in a local library wouldn't be difficult but unfortunately I don't live in Texas (or even the US). Tiller54 (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately- There is no other way to say this about the above statement but... It is a complete lie from tiller54. Nowhere in any line anywhere does tiller54 provide a link new, old or broken that claims Babin said "all gays should be shot" from McDonald or anyone else. This is clearly a disinformation attack upon Conressman elect Brian Babin by tiller54. I would like tiller54 to contact me and identify himself. Wikiblanks (talk) 07:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC) I agree with MusikAnimal - I think the posting is disparaging to both Babin and McDonald. Also, there is no way short of a miracle that tiller54 can ever prove or disprove that McDonald's story caused Babin to lose the 1998 election - that statement by tiller54 it caused Babin to lose the 1998 election makes him look suspect with an agenda. The legal implications of these unfounded allegations all the way down the line are very serious and serves unworthy as nothing more than inuindo and he said she said. The very fact that this 21 year old person claims he was Babin's campaign manager is laughable at best and makes the rest of the story stink as some kind of "hit piece" to adversely affect the Gay community vote or FALSELY alienate Dr. Babin from a certain class of people. Wikiblanks (talk) 07:16, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Please read the sources provided before you start accusing editors of being liars. This source states quite clearly: "In private conversations about government controversies involving gays, Babin remarked that homosexuals should be shot, according to McDonald." I will not identify myself to you or any other editor. Please familiarise yourself with the privacy policy and the policy on threatening litigation, as you appear to have done so. Please also assume good faith when dealing with other editors. Accusing other editors of lying and having an agenda violates the behavioural and conduct policies and could lead to you being blocked. Tiller54 (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

I stand by assertions that you have an agenda. That comment by McDonald is libelous and completely unsubstantiated as a he said... she said... comment. Posting that comment as if it it was credible in any way is completely inappropriate and violates Misplaced Pages guidelines too. For you to keep pushing that comment is suspect in itself. I can advise anyone of my opinion to litigate if I wish- that was posted as a matter of transparency in this forum. Beyond that, you continue to push posting defamatory information about someone's contentions that have nothing to do with Dr. Babin in any way. Moreover, you stated previously that you believed that Dr. Babin lost his election bid in 1998 because of the unsubstantiated and DENIED comments, laughable... They had NO bearing on any election he has been involved in including his most recent win as a nine county US Congressman. Don't keep threating me with being blocked everytime you don't like what I say, that is so juvenile and sophomoric. The Conressman is a good man and you seek to only taint him with libelous manufactured garbage. Wikiblanks (talk) 18:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

For the record I do appreciate working with reasonable editors/admins and other people here at Wiki. I'm new to this forum but like the premise and possibilities. I can see where there are many unutilized ways and uses of communication here yet to be realized. Libel is very offensive and in some states even criminal, I take these sorts of posting very seriously. Wikiblanks (talk) 18:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

So you've gone from calling me a liar and saying that a source with the "gays should be shot" line in doesn't exist when clearly it does to calling it "libelous and completely unsubstantiated". Well clearly it's not as the claim was published in a major newspaper. Did Babin sue McDonald for libel? No. So what does that say?

Of course, it's been proposed that the line be removed anyway, but just carry on threatening people and calling them liars, why don't you?

As for "you stated previously that you believed that Dr. Babin lost his election bid in 1998 because of the unsubstantiated and DENIED comments, laughable... They had NO bearing on any election he has been involved in", Here is The Hill stating quite clearly: "Babin ran for Congress in 1996 and 1998, losing both times after controversies over campaign contributions and the resignation of his gay campaign manager." If you'd like to contribute constructively, go ahead. If you're here to do nothing but have a tantrum and threaten people, don't bother. Tiller54 (talk) 13:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I demand a formal wikipedia inquiry and resolution to Tiller54' continued libelous assertions toward Brian Babin. The whole posting Tiller54 has posted is in no way factual or rooted in any basis for fact. Babin's campaign director during the time of the supposed McDonald claim/information was Gwen Pharo- FACT - Tiller54 is promoting outrageous lies and is a liar. Please advise me on how we may appeal and unseal Tiller54's identity.Wikiblanks (talk) 17:57, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

You can demand things and threaten people all you like but it won't change the fact that everything in the section is properly sourced. Your blanket refusal to accept this and your claims of "lies" and "libel" even when shown sources that clearly state what you dispute suggest that you are not here to contribute constructively. Tiller54 (talk) 12:01, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

User- Tiller54 continues to post libel without regard. His postings are based on he said she said disparaging remarks against McDonald and the subject wiki Brian Babin. Just because there was some irresponsible reporting or articles based in lies and conjecture that are posted somewhere does not mean the subject post are factual or appropriate to post. The accusations are clearly based in no factual sources and are complete lies and are not the actual subject of Brian Babin as set forth in the wikipedia terms and conditions. McDonald was not and never has been Dr. Babin's campaign director or organizer and has no place in any story related to the congressman. Tiller54's continued posting of these lies is an apparent direct attack on Dr. Babin. These lies and Libel will continue to be deleted as a responsible action against the attacks brought forth by Tiller54. I encourage wikipedia editors to ban Tiller54 from posting any information on wikipedia here forward.Wikiblanks (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Constantly repeating the words "lies" and "libel" does not make something so. The Hill, PlanetOut, The Dallas Morning News, The Fort Worth Star-Telegram, The Houston Chronicle, Metro Weekly and The Washington Post are all reliable sources and all have covered the story. As such, it most certainly does have a place on Babin's article. Specific claims that McDonald made (that Babin said "gays should be shot") have been removed and replaced with a more neutral and general "McDonald said that Babin made disparaging remarks about gays in private". Your claims that the content is "clearly based in no factual sources" are ludicrous given that it is in fact very clearly sourced. If you continue edit warring, you will likely be blocked. Tiller54 (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

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