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Archive

I archived all of that idle discussion into #1, so this can be left to discussion what should/should not happen to the article, rather than whether or not he is a cheat etc. --Killfest2 06:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC) Bring it on

NOT Regarding Zidane's headbutt

i do believe that Materazzi is one of the most violent palyer of the game. Remember this AC-Inter game where he elbows one guy just before kicking another in his deepest intimity. Some scenes of his career should be rated above 18. An interesting stat would be the number of red card he got ?Kekel 10:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The folowing video show for what Materazzi is the best known. To have players like him world champions is a disgrace for football.

]]

Hard version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpG4AHlZrL4

Another proof of Materazzi's violent behavior. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gyu8W1g2co The commentators themselves insist on it being intentional. Look at how badly this elbow was.

also remember that vile elbow on juan pablo sorin of villarreal.

The elbow attack is shown in the link above. It should be in the main article, so I put it there but was reverted by User:Panairjdde, who has reverted several edits to the article but not so far (see User_Talk:Panairjdde) supplied a valid reason for reverting mine. My knowledge of football is insufficient for me to pursue an edit war on the matter, but if the link is not to be in the main article then I would like to see a valid reason why not. Viewfinder 16:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Poor presentation was not the reason you gave for reverting my edit at the time I wrote the above. Expect it back soon with better presentation. Viewfinder 18:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC) As a matter of interest, does anyone reading this know if Materazzi was carded for the Sorin incident? Viewfinder 19:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/ simply glorifies violence and anything on that site extracts violent acts and presents then for your viewing (dis)pleasure. Those Materazzi incidences are isolated, misrepresented, and taken out of context and simply make him look violent. The same type of editting can be done regarding Zidane, Rooney, or any other player. It proves nothing about the player in question. You could isolate video of Materazzi scoring and suggest he's a major attacking force even though he only has a few goals to his credit.

I don't think the you tube links on this page "glorify" violence, although they do expose it. Still, the commentary on the Sorin incident may have been over the top, I don't think the "assault" allegation was fair. So I have decided not to contest the deletion of the youtube link to this from the main article. But the Zidane provocation incident would appear to me to be very serious indeed and attempts by some commentators to dismiss it as "just an incident", or, even worse, to laugh it off with jokey fantasies, are misguided. Most people, especially competitive sportsmen, have finite tolerance levels and the deliberate playing on these to get the best players in opposing teams sent off is nothing less than disgusting. Viewfinder 15:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I find it very surprising that Materazzi's "uber-hostile" style of play is barely mentioned. Also, this article stinks of POV. Almost sounds like a Materazzi Fansite! Try to tone down the "Materazzi Rocks" style of writing. --59.93.244.237 03:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Zidane's headbutt

I think we should wait for an actual quote from a French player or Zidane himself before even mentioning any alleged "racism".

In this source it just says "FOXSports.com's Jamie Trecker reports that French players told French media members that Materazzi used a racial slur which prompted the headbutt."... it doesn't state which players said this or even a direct quote, its pure speculation.

Lets wait it out and see what Zidane claims the reasoning was first before branding a player "racist" without any proof. - Deathrocker 07:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

When a news reporter says something happened it's more than "pure speculation". It may be second- or third-hand, but the reported said that something actually happened. Lets do the decent thing of presuming that a news reporter (even Fox) isn't just making it up. DJ Clayworth 18:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

What planet are you living on DJ? Reporters lie and fabricate all the time.88.105.118.211 23:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

even trecker? Nateji77 06:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This is disgraceful. Everybody knows that Zidane will probably not confirm anything regarding the incident, just as he did not regarding the Saudi player previously. Stating that as the sole criteria for including the information is absurd. THere are many other possible sources. If we get quotes of ALLEGATIONS then a statement that there were such allegations should be included, considering the importance of the match in which the incident occurred. Not only that, but all discussion of the incident has been censored from the main discussion page, labeled as "idle" and the article has been locked. But I do not see any evidence that the people who are locking the page, and deleting the discussion, are any more objective or trustworthy than anybody else. This page is clearly being run by Inter or Italian fans with no objectivity on the matter whatsoever. THere is also more than a hint of rascism in considering the entire matter idle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.101.252 (talk • contribs)

Whatever, you guys are like watching this page like big time. relax, get a life, it was just an incident. He doesn't care, he just did it and that's that. He can't go back in time and change that. It was distined to. Geez, big deal. The news will fade out in like a few days. I just don't get why you guys make a big deal. ]

Please, only talk about the article, and not about whether it was disgraceful or not. Killfest2 09:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"Just an incident, he just did it and that's that" - sorry, I beg to disagree. I think that it is very important that the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth passes into the public domain. We have all seen what Zidane did, and he was quite rightly sent off for it. But what, if anything, did Materazzi do/say to provoke the incident? Viewfinder 10:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I re-added the provocation comment with a more reputable source, Zidane's agent. Xombie 17:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

How to abuse of a source - POV

Mr. Xombie inserted this statement:

Later in that game he was involved in an off-the-ball incident; he was headbutted in the chest by Zinedine Zidane, who, according to Zidane, was provoked by Materazzi insulting the French player.

Now, what would you expect from that link? That there is Zidane saying that Materazzi insulted him, of course. I noticed the link and said, "Oh, Zidane finally broke his silence and gave his POV on the matter, let's see", but — surprise! — the link was reporting the already known statement by Zidane's agent, according to whom Zidane does not want to say anything else than the fact that Materazzi told "something very serious". So I changed to:

Later in that game he was involved in an off-the-ball incident; he was headbutted in the chest by Zinedine Zidane, who, according to Zidane's agent, was provoked by Materazzi saying "something very serious" to the French player.

And what happens next? That Xombie — surprise! — reverts my edit, claiming that "The agent was quoting Zidane, and "something very serious" implies insult." My compliments to Xombie for the way he can twist a source to make appear what he wants, not what the source says! I demand the text to be amended to show the truth, not Mr. Xombie's POV.--Panairjdde 18:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no POV. If you read the source, the agent is saying what Zidane said, and "something very serious" cannot possibly mean anything else in this context other than an insult. My wording is much more clear and in no way POV. Xombie 18:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

My text says exactly what the source reported, so why are you changing it with your version, which is an elaboration and interpretation by yourself?--Panairjdde 20:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Dirty terrorist? What the hell does that mean? --80.116.137.150 19:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I can only assume that something was lost in translation, unless Algerians are, for some reason, particularly offended by that vague insult... -XI

I expect "Dirty terrorist" is an oblique reference to the allegations that Zidane's father was a harki, ie an Algerian collaborator with the French colonial authorities. EdwinGreenwood 11:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

And you think Materazzi was aware of these 'allegations' do you? You think Materazzi even knows what a 'Harki' is? Tsssst88.105.118.211 23:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane and Materazzi are both senior footballers playing at premiership and international level. I expect they are well aware of each other and each other's reputation. Whether or not Materazzi knows the precise expression harki, it is entirely plausible that he would know of these allegations and might use them as a means of deliberately inciting Zidane. EdwinGreenwood 11:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Panairjdde appears to have committed vandalism on my point regarding a rather infamous own goal scored by Materazzi. I am reverting this and putting this part back in the article. It is important to note major errors of players. Furthermore, since less wikiphiles follow Serie A, this section is in fact very infromative. Do not delete this one again, it is not irrelevant, it is an important error by Materazzi. It occurred very close to the World Cup and was cited many times by Inter Milan as a reason why Materazzi was a second team defender for their side. It was also used by Italian fans in the run up to the World Cup, as a basis for why Materazzi should not be included. Perhaps, you may not know this because you don't follow Serie A. - Nlsanand

First of all, be very careful when you call other's edits "vandalism". You introduced a reference to a useless information, and I removed it. Now, if you want it, discuss here, but do not call my edits vandalism. The info is a minor issue (defendes often score own goals) and blatantly POV in its formulation: "he also scored one of the most comical own goals in Serie A history, when he managed to put it in his own from near the halfway line, in a match against Empoli". Removed.--Panairjdde 11:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Guy, you haven't even appeared to have read the reference as it is a match report from the game. It was not a useless reference. It is also not commonplace for a defender to score from his own halfway line. I don't know what league you play in if you think it is. Now look I will admit I am on the more liberal side of admitting things into articles, however your deletion was unwarranted. I will point out there is a reference to Materazzi scoring a penalty in the World Cup Final. Is that a major incident? 5 players scored such a penalty for Italy alone! Now listen, I am willing to exclude the "most comical" as it does tend to have POV. However, this incident should be included. My local Serie A recap show called it the worst play of the year. I am sorry if I called it vandalism on your part. However, you essentially did not read my contribution and make a thoughtful edit, you simply deleted it! I will listen to your feedback on this matter. I am more than willing to change it, but please do not randomly delete others' work just because you have failed to understand the gravity of it. Thanks! - Nlsanand

I wouldn't mind (as an Inter fan myself) to see report of the own goal, and even to see it called one of the most comical. I guess only one of Riccardo Ferri's 8 own goals (the one in "rovesciata") can beat Matrix's own goal! - 81.208.106.65 06:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it was one of the greatest own goals in football history. Maybe a link to a video should be included in the external links section: , . David Sneek 11:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Aight, I am going to revert thanks to the help of David Sneek and his wonderful link. I am not going to say "the most comical" as Panairjdde feels it is not NPOV, and God knows he is very hard to please, judging by how many counts of deletion he has performed. Instead, I will say only "comical". But Panairjdde, please do not touch this again, as it really is useful to anyone wanting to learn more. Thanks! - Nlsanand

As a schoolboy, I was rightly told off for laughing in response to an own goal. I do not think the word "comical" is appropriate. It seems to me that he intended to pass the ball back to his goalkeeper but overhit the ball over the goalkeeper's head - an unfortunate error of judgement. I also think that the link is of insufficient importance to be in the main article but I will leave that to others to decide. Viewfinder 22:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Aight Viewfinder, would you consider having it in the trivia section? - Nlsanand

Zoro incident

From my talk page:

If you look at the original context in which I relayed the incident between Zoro and Materazzi, it was not phrased as proof that Materazzi is racist, but rather a highly relevant incident; additionally, it is not rumor, but rather something that Zoro relayed himself as being told by Materazzi (as described in the article). I respect your desire to avoid branding someone a racist; but I feel this incident is important to include if done in a proper way. That is, the mere fact that a newsworthy incident involving someone involved race should not be precluded from being mentioned. --AstroLad 17:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It was not a matter of racism, rather a matter of opportunity. The bad thing that happened to Zoro was the bad behaviour of the people watching. If you describe all of this, and then report the exchange between Materazzi saying something like "Zoro exagerated" and Z. answering "I don't mind your opinion", that is an irrelevant fact.--Panairjdde 17:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This is the reason why I removed the "Zoro incident".--Panairjdde 11:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Dave Zirin makes this claim about Materazzi re: Zoro -

"It's wrong to taint Materazzi for the actions of Lazio's fans, but there is more. Earlier this season in a match that pitted Messina against Inter in Sicily, Messina's star African player Marc Zoro famously picked up the ball and walked off the pitch in protest of the monkey chants rained upon him by Inter supporters. In a stirring act of solidarity, many of the Inter players immediately showed support for Zoro's actions. But one opponent yelled, "Stop that, Zoro, you're just trying to make a name for yourself." That opponent's name was Marco Materazzi."

http://www.alternet.org/story/38780/

Terrorist

What does he mean when he says that he is not cultured and doesn't know what an Islamic terrorist is? Does he really not know or did he mean something else? 69.40.242.91 17:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I think something may have been lost in translation. I've been trying to find the actual quote in Italian (without any success). Nicklob 20:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found one quote in Italian here .

Marco Materazzi ha negato categoricamente di aver chiamato "terrorista" il giocatore di origini algerine. "E' vero, l'ho insultato" ha detto l'azzurro alla Gazzetta dello Sport. "Ma non l'ho mai chiamato terrorista. Non ho neanche idea di cosa voglia dire 'terrorista islamico' ".

It roughly translates to:

Marco Materazzi categorically denied ever having called the player of Algerian origin a terrorist. "It's true, I insulted him" the azzuri player told the Sport's Gazette. "But I didn't call him a terrorist. I have no idea what 'Islamic terrorist' means".

A second source had this quote .

Di sicuro non gli ho dato del terrorista: sono ignorante e non so neanche cosa significhi.

Rough translation:

I assure I didn't call him a terrorist: I'm ignorant and I don't know anything significant.

>> The correct translation of Di sicuro non gli ho dato del terrorista: sono ignorante e non so neanche cosa significhi. is "Surely I didn't call him a terrorist : I'm ignorant and I don't even know what it means."

So in conclusion, I don't think any meaning was lost in translation. If I were to speculate, I'd say his claim of being ignorant really means that he doesn't keep up to date with such issues as terrorism (i.e. he's ignorant of current happenings in the world). Nicklob 21:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I can kind of understand what he's trying to say, but he must at least know what a terrorist is. 71.31.149.113 23:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the "Gazetta dello Sport" should gain a double z and be linked to the corresponding article, ironically as they did on Zidane's page. 81.208.106.65 06:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Insults and player violence in Football

Perhaps this is a good place to finally discuss the issue.. It is generally accepted that there was some form of insult from Materazzi and no doubt that there was violence from Zidane. It would correct from the governing authorities to determine methods for punishing both actions, not just now but in the future too. It is too early to determine what happened in those few seconds, but whatever it was, it must come to light.

Zidane deserves the greatest respect for his footballing quality and is arguably the best player of his generation, but it was absolutely correct to send him of for his discraceful reaction. Now is the time to examine the issue of provocation and to send a message to those who practice it to incite such a result. If Materazzis comment is deserving of punishment, than he should be punished for the good of the game

However the site should not be vandilised in advance of qualified Knowledge of the actual events

Nighthawkx15 18:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC))Nighthawkx15

Yes, in addition, there definetely wasn't anything lost in translation between the two players. Zidane speaks fluent Italian from his years at Juventus.

The first link to the FIFA official profile is wrong

The first link down there links to Alessandro Del Piero's FIFA profile. Please correct it.

Sabb0ur 23:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The following Information keeps being removed:

He was also involved in an incident with Messina player Marco Zoro, from the Ivory Coast. In a game against Inter, Zoro was subjected to monkey chants and other racial attacks throughout the match. Zoro picked up the ball and began to walk off the pitch in disgust. He explained that "t was the classic treatment of black players in Italy - it happens all over the country, Lazio fans being the worst." While Inter players Adriano and Obafemi Martins persuaded him to stay, and club owner Massimo Moratti praised Zoro as "an intelligent man who acted in a brave and intelligent way," Materazzi told Zoro, "stop that, Zoro, you're just trying to make a name for yourself." Zoro later stated that "I didn't even argue with him, I've no intention of lowering myself to that level."

Why?--Greasysteve13 07:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because it has little to do with Materazzi?  Grue  10:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The level of relevance is very low. It should not be included. Bruno18 01:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Materazzi's insult against Zidane was not racist in nature

Zidane has denied that his insults were racist in nature: see video at http://www.eurosport.fr/football/coupedumonde/2006/sport_sto924766.shtml (at about 2 mins. 30 secs.)

Also, from Le Parisien:

Avant l'émission, le journaliste interroge Zidane sur les insultes proférées par Materazzi. « Il m'a assuré que ce n'était pas raciste. Mais il n'a pas voulu me donner les mots exacts employés par l'Italien. Simplement que ça concernait sa mère et sa soeur. On peut deviner la suite... » http://www.leparisien.com/home/sports/mondial2006/article.htm?articleid=261030842 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.62.198.107 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane gave two different interviews. One to Canal + and one to TF1. I couldn't find the entire Canal + video online, but if you follow the eurosport link above and look for 'video' you'll find the TF1 interview. The question is asked after approx. 2 mins. 30 secs. F4810 12:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is what is said:

INTERVIEWER: "... et quand vous dites 'des paroles tres graves', est-ce que vous pouvez dire si elles sont d'ordre raciste, ..."

ZIDANE: "non..."

INTERVIEWER: "... si elles sont d'ordre familiale... "

ZIDANE: "... oui c'est familiale... "

Which translates into (god, how hard!):

INTERVIEWER: "... and when you say 'very serious words', could you say if they are of racist nature, ..."

ZIDANE: "no..."

INTERVIEWER: "... if they are of domestic nature... "

ZIDANE: "... yes, domestic... "

F4810 12:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)