Misplaced Pages

Archived requests

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Dwavenhobble (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:16, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Recently you may be Aware Ryulong was asked by Jimbo_Wales (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to step away from the page temporarily.

However as can be seen in the edit logs Ryulong has returned to editing the page again.

However since during his absence he undertook discussions with members of one side of the present edit wars going on

Further to this he has been in contact with the moderators of said area and is said to be actively working this them including having them promote a funding effort on his behalf. This funding effort to be precise.

While Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is known as being a competent editor evidence suggests that he is no longer neutral on this topic and has received monetary compensation in kind from one side. I would suggest Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s talent s be better spend on articles where there is no such conflict of interest present.

References

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Draft:Gamergate_controversy&action=history
2. http://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/2mj5ds/im_ryulong/
3. https://archive.today/PEKH2
4. http://www.gofundme.com/hhqw0c

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Official enforcement of sanctions against Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to prevent him from editing this article.

Discussion concerning Ryulong

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ryulong

I edited an unofficial sandbox version of an article today (and engaged in discussion at another the other day) after I had announced I would possibly considered to have a conflict of interest after I made a donation page to help me pay back a friend I owed money to as I would not know where the money came from considering that my blog is watched by both sides of the debate (my blog is the only place I've provided a link to the donation page). The only thing I've done is break my promise to stay away from the topic area. Because adding two tags to an article, bringing up a discussion on its talk page, and discussing the article offsite are not violations of any on-site sanctions.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

People here are almost exclusively using off-site evidence to show I've violated some official rule onsite.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac's timeline on my behavior on 8chan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is flawed.

• 11:03, 25 November 2014, I make the post on my user talk
• 11:05, 25 November 2014, first tags
• 11:11, 25 November 2014, talk page thread started to begin discussion on neutrality and POV
• 15:31, 25 November 2014, POV tag removed
• 17:50, 25 November 2014, notability tag removed
• 19:45, 25 November 2014, notability tag re-added
• 20:04, 25 November 2014, removed again

—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac, that's directed to your audience and not yourself or Pepsiwithcoke.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:34, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Procedural note: there have been far too many pile-on "comments" by involved parties from both sides in this thread, just as in the one about Masem above. Everybody, please take note: These requests are not for voicing your opinions on each other, support or oppose each other with pile-ons, or engage in further debate between each other. Please only add a statement here if you have some substantially new, factual observations to make about the specific case at hand that are needed for the uninvolved administrators to come to a proper conclusion. People who make unhelpful comments in these kinds of threads will be blocked in the future. (Not saying that all the below sections are unhelpful, but the volume has become so high I don't see a lot of alternatives to throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC) {{hat}}

@The Wordsmith: please don't give my harassers an early Christmas present.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@The Wordsmith: Even if I do have a conflict of interest (which every other administrator finds tenuous at best) I made edits to a sandbox version of the article and simply tagged a completely different tangentially related article and participated in discussion on its talk page. None of that AFAIK consists of disruption that this whole request revolves around.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Johnuniq. THe timing is off here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Statement by TheRedPenOfDoom

@Dwavenhobble: Its interesting that you are aware of Ryulong's substantial history of being a competent editor. Have you been following his work on Misplaced Pages before you created your account earlier this month? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:46, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

To those who have asked, I will point them to the top of this page in the big red box where it says: "If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:16, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@Dwavenhobble: could you please point to any change in Ryulong's edits that would be reflective of this alleged payment having any impact on Ryulong's editing? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Dwavenhobble: i am having trouble following your logic, but are you are saying that Ryulong's removal of "cite needed" tags from content that was sourced by several sources which Ryulong had inserted into the article on OCT 25 is evidence of editing that was biased because of a donation that occurred after NOV 19 when the funding campaign was started? that seems more than a little stretched to me. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:05, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Dwavenhobble: You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Misplaced Pages editors may not use primary sources like tweets as a basis for analysis and article content. We require the reliable sources to do the interpretation and analysis. Once a reliable source has made a determination, then we follow the source. WP:OR applies to US and OUR analysis, not to the experts published in reliable sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:15, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Dwavenhobble: so you are actually claiming that The Guardian, Time, CNN and Washington Post have all not done proper analysis and are nonreliable bias sources? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

is quite troubling- a promotion that 4 of the most trusted news organizations in the world have all simultaneously failed their basic journalistic duties. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

This is an incoherent mess. There is no prohibition against editors discussing things off-wiki; indeed, if I don't miss my guess, such a prohibition would result in topic bans on all of the above complaining users as well. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@Loganmac: You can't keep poking at someone on-wiki and off and then complain when they respond with a bit of relatively mild invective. Your carrying on this campaign against Ryulong has the strong scent of someone who is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to continually stoke drama. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:42, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by 92.142.2.237

This isn't about discussing things off-wiki, this is about taking money from a clearly biased group and then keeping pushing that group's agenda on the article despite previous suggestions by Jimbo to refrain on further edits. -- 23:03, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: How is that relevant to the conflict of interest displayed by Ryulong? Don't try to discredit his claims by investigating his history, get some real arguments please. -- 22:53, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Starship.paint

It seems like Ryulong has received a donation of $350 from FishFox Nuro, a self-described "SJW Lunatic" (essentially equates to anti-GamerGate). This seems like WP:COI to me, if he has returned to editing GamerGate topics, which he has. This was echoed by Ryulong himself, as per his comment after opening the GoFundMe starship.paint ~ regal 23:51, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

• Update: I concur the statements made by Obsidi and Weedwhacker (at the time of this post). In addition, I'd like the deciding admin to clarify whether any future editing the draft article of GamerGate would count as a violation of WP:COI. starship.paint ~ regal 01:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

There's nothing to enforce here: there is no weight in Jimmy Wales' requests to Ryulong stepping away from the page, or even Ryulong coming back after saying he wouldn't. (The only thing close I could even consider this would fall into is something like Right to Vanish and then coming back to edit, which can be a matter of some admin action, but that's not happening here). None of the actions seem actionable under sanctions. --MASEM (t) 23:55, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@Retartist Even aware of that, nothing yet screens a paid-editing problem; there's a potential, but nothing yet that I can see actionable. --MASEM (t) 00:26, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Weedwacker: There is the basis of the necessary elements that in the future Ryulong may end up doing that in the GG area, but all that depends on what and how he edits. And we need to AGF until that time; the evidence here is not for that. --MASEM (t) 07:19, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Loganmac

This isn't the only time he's edited GamerGate related topics, he has added a notability tag and a neutrality tag to the 8chan article, twice . After getting reverted, he vented on his personal talk page about it. I ask admins to see this for what it is, it's paid editing, even if unintentional. The subreddit GamerGhazi is a self-admitted forum in opposition to the subject in question. He has recieved $350 after having made an AMA on their forum, in an obvious display of gratitude, and I'm SURE if any so called "pro-GamerGate" editor as Ryulong has called some, had been caught in this, he'd be, not topic banned, banned site-wide. Jimmy Wales, for what it matters, has referred to this on multiple occassions on both Misplaced Pages and his personal Twitter page and advised him to back down, not only for this but because it has according to him caused him stress since he's taking this into a personal matter. Ryulong then proceeded to say Jimmy Wales was "retweeting conspiracy theories" and then proceeded to delete his tweets. It doesn't matter if the money was for editing or buying some clothes or whatever, an anti-GamerGate forum wouldn't give a random user money if it wasn't because they saw it as a way to thank him, and if he had admitted this conflict of interest, it would have been left at that, but this is now outrageous that he keeps his constant behaviour, a behaviour that has been noted ad nauseum yet he refuses to take advice from the community, and moderators refuse to even reprehend him Loganmac (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@Sookenon: What are you implying? I for once wasn't implying anything, I refreshed the page, saw my comment was gone, saw it was deleted by Ryulong, found it hilarious and reposted it, mentioned it. It obviously wasn't intentional and I never implied this, you should assume good faith Loganmac (talk) 00:12, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong has now told me to "eat shit" and has called me an idiot if this isn't WP:CIVIL I don't know what is Loganmac (talk) 00:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Weedwacker: expresses exactly what I think Loganmac (talk) 03:15, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sookenon

@TheRedPenOfDoom: Agreed: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/search?q=author%3ALogan_Mac&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all Sookenon (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bosstopher

@Loganmac: This is yet another case in a long history of you misrepresenting the actions of other editors on reddit (especially Ryulong) thereby inciting hatred against them. This is in especially poor taste given the harassment Ryulong is currently undergoing. Further evidence regarding this can be seen in my Arbcom statement Bosstopher (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by AndyTheGrump

Having stayed largely out of this whole GamerGate mess up to now, I regret having getting sucked into the latest drama over at WP:ANI: . However, now I'm in, and since it is obvious that nothing concrete can possibly be resolved in that particular exercise in mutually ignoring the point, and arguing in circles, I may as well comment here. As far as I can see, the suggestion is that Ryūlóng has received funds in relation to some forum or other involved in the GamerGate controversy. Ryūlóng seems to acknowledge receiving funds from someone for something, but the connection between these funds and any edits made seems to me at least to be as yet unestablished. And unless and until it can be shown that there is a verifiable causal link, assertions of a COI seem premature. Furthermore, I think that it can be taken as read that Misplaced Pages can't sanction someone for voluntarily 'topic-banning' themselves, and then changing their mind - it wouldn't be voluntary if we could. Accordingly, I have to suggest that those claiming that Ryūlóng's editing has been influenced by financial gain have, per burden of proof, to demonstrate this, rather than merely assert it, and failing that, either withdraw the assertions, or accept that they may face sanctions themselves. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Dwavenhobble

@TheRedPenOfDoom I have previously edited wikipedia using the IP based system long ago before creating an account and have seen and heard others talk of him and his work previously. Unfortunately I do have a dynamic IP so showing those edits before I had an ID will be difficult not least due to them being many years prior to creating this account. The edits surrounded Dr Who entries on Cyberman and the webcasts Pyramids of Mars and Scream of the Shalka. Additionally I did add further detail on characters in No Heroics Dwavenhobble (talk) 00:44, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom I'd suggest this points to some level of bias due to an editor investigating the sources provided by the linked sources. The sources themselves according to the user had no sources themselves. Essentially the source being allowed to be submitted was itself being used as the entire source. I believe this would come under X reporting on X. As Misplaced Pages itself doesn't allow mere twitter post speculation to be used then the sources being linked here to make the claims would be invalid. Hence the suggestion can be made that the events should be detailed as alleged. I refer you therefore to "If it's written in a book, it must be true!" As such the source isn't verifiable itself as the source is becoming in this case the source of it's own information which cannot be verified by checking said source.

References

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Draft:Gamergate_controversy&oldid=635547322
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#.22If_it.27s_written_in_a_book.2C_it_must_be_true.21.22

@TheRedPenOfDoom: Well yes citations. firstly and foremost to verify the claims that it was gamergate doing the harassment. Otherwise the same arguments could be levelled at other such groups (some of whom have been shown the be intent on editing biographies here). If Misplaced Pages will not allow Tweets as then the sources themselves are the only evidence as the sources they used are not verifiable under wikipedia's guidelines.

@TheRedPenOfDoom: However from Misplaced Pages's page about a source being verifiable "There are examples where material should not be reported in Misplaced Pages's voice, because what is verifiable is that the source expresses a view, not that the view is necessarily accurate." thus without Reliable sources in this case which have done the primary analysis and use verifiable sources which these do not verify the claims made. A Citation proving the claims is required or an adjustment to the statement to show said claim is an allegation not fact. What would be fact would be Felicia Day having her address posted. What is not fact is who did it, that for the most part in every article is speculation. The only verifiable thing is the source expresses that view not that the source is correct.

References

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#.22If_it.27s_written_in_a_book.2C_it_must_be_true.21.22

@TheRedPenOfDoom: I am claiming that they aren't verifiable which is part of the point of contention here. As has been shown recently in some fields one reporter has seen another group running the story and made the assumption the information is correct. If it is not possible to verify the claims being presented under Misplaced Pages's rules it shouldn't be presented as "Misplaced Pages's voice". So as such the article should either point out it's alleged by the sources that Gamergate was the source or it requires a source whose work is verifiable not merely being taken on trust of the sources past.

Statement by Obsidi

I have mostly stayed out of the gamergate controversy except when it gets to AN/ANI, but given this issue blew up at ANI I thought I would post my comments on it. First thing is to establish that the user ryulong67 at reddit is Ryulong on Misplaced Pages, this thread, combined with this Misplaced Pages edit shows that reddit user ryulong67 is Ryulong. Then this post by ryulong67 shows that he believes he received (and choose to accept) the money from a user at /r/GamerGhazi. /r/GamerGhazi is a site with an explicit POV on gamergate. As such Ryulong has now accepted money from someone with a direct interest in promoting a POV on gamergate. This to me shows that Ryulong has a COI on gamergate. Now as to this specific instance, I do not believe he violated WP:COI interest policy as the edits were not to a mainspace article and/or not controversial. So I would ask that the result be a declaration of a COI for Ryulong on gamergate going forward but no further action taken. (PS. I have no problems with closing this because the ANI thread, but I figure one of these two will get closed on the merits and wanted to make sure whichever one it was my views were considered.) --Obsidi (talk) 00:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Now that the ANI thread was closed for forumshopping, this is the only thread on the subject. --Obsidi (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Super Goku V: Editing of any "pages related to the Gamergate controversy" are subject to the general sanctions, to me that includes the draft article. --Obsidi (talk) 13:55, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: I agree with everything you wrote, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a COI. He shouldn't be topic banned over this, but he does appear to have a COI now. --Obsidi (talk) 16:38, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Ivanvector

I wasn't going to post here per a request from Tutelary (via ANI) but since Andy and Obsidi have, I feel I should as well, thus I apologize in advance for going against Tutelary's stated desire for this not to be posted here (a sentiment I respect though I don't understand it). I have no horse in this race; like Andy, I've gotten into the discussion at ANI against my better judgement. There has been an allegation that Ryulong has received compensation for edits made to Misplaced Pages, and evidence has been suggested in the ANI thread (I'm not going to cross post the links) but in my observation that evidence fails substantially to establish that Ryulong is being paid to edit Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, such an allegation requires definitive proof, and throwing around such unfounded accusations is a direct violation of our harassment policy (WP:OUTING). In the interest of civility (one of the Five Pillars, I'll remind you) editors should refrain from this behaviour, though I don't hold out much hope for civility in this topic area any more.

There has also been extensive reference here and at ANI to Ryulong's "self imposed topic ban", referring to their response to having been accused of COI because an off-Misplaced Pages attack article mentioned their username. Please read Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement by Ryulong for full context. The user volunteered to step away from this topic area with a prediction that their future involvement would cause further drama, but that's far from an enforceable topic ban - it is no more than a voluntary absence, one that obviously can be revoked at any time, and it is certainly not an admission of conflict of interest. Ivanvector (talk) 01:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: Ha! I spent a large part of today whinging that ANI shouldn't consider this because there was already an open thread here. Maybe there really is no appropriate venue. Ivanvector (talk) 05:09, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Weedwacker

If we're all going to come over from ANI I might as well join in too. I am going to have to agree with Obsidi's reasoning behind the subject. Ryulong accepted money and thanked those responsible from a site with a POV on the topic at hand. Whether or not it can be directly shown that he accepted money for editing, the fact is that he accepted the money and opened himself up to receiving it by posting the funding campaign to his blog connected to his editor name. I cannot in good faith directly claim he used his editor name in the crowd-funding campaign for nefarious purposes, but it does give the appearance of requesting money of those that agree with him as an editor. I am going to be less harsh in my calls than I was on ANI and suggest that no action be taken related to his recent edits, but that he should be barred from future edits on the topic. It has become clear that self-imposed bans have not been effective. Weedwacker (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I take significant offense to Gamaliel's comments in the result section. Calling the editors who are raising disputes "kids" is demeaning and far from WP:civil. Also: "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators." He is clearly not an uninvolved administrator at this point.Weedwacker (talk) 06:07, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Resolute this topic is hardly about only the self-imposed topic ban.Weedwacker (talk) 06:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Masem I understand your points, but do you think that there is a WP:COI at play here that should be considered for future edits? Weedwacker (talk) 07:13, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Resolute

Mostly just endorsing AndyTheGrump's statement in whole. The idea that someone should be sanctioned for "violating" a voluntary self-topic ban on the basis of allegations that do not appear to have been demonstrated as true is rather silly. Resolute 01:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by former editor and uninvolved (MarkBernstein)

Ryulong has been working to improve Misplaced Pages since Feb 2006. It appears I arrived the following September, at the urging of Aaron_Swartz who convinced me this was not as ,such an impossible as I had supposed. Aaron was a convincing fellow: he was wrong in this case, but here we are. My candid impression is that Ryulong and I have crossed swords at times, and agreed at other times. His is a familiar name to me, as to many of you. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know him.

As of late I've been alternating farewells and recrimination here, I'd like to leave Misplaced Pages with a proposal for what I believe to be a better solution.

• • We owe Ryulong a debt for long and loyal service. We owe him collectively, even if he has sometimes opposed us, and even if he currently opposes us.
  • Ryulong has found himself in an awkward position having just moved to a new continent, changed institutions, jobs, whatever.
  • Some people have offered to help out. There is nothing wrong with that; this is what friends and people of good will do.
  • This help presents, to some of us, a suggestion of impropriety. I agree with AndyTheGrump above. I think that this suggestion is ill-mannered and ill-conceived but clearly some people (for whatever reason) hold it.

THEREFORE, we have a problem over which we've just spilt a whole lot of ink in lots of places. But we can fix it -- easily.

1. Ryulong will return the $350 given to him from the source which is objectionable to certain editors here. If they wish, he will provide them or a trusted Administrator (see below) evidence that this has been done, within (let's say) 90 days.

2. We will pass that hat here. In the 18th century, we would take up a subscription for Ryulong. I or my firm will pledge a significant fraction of the sum, conditional on others subscribing for at a total of at least $350. Subscriptions will be capped at a total of $1000 and will be confidential with the following exception on which my contribution is contingent: at least three contributors should be drawn from the ranks of the editor who nominated this request for enforcement or from those who, before this posting, supported it.

3. If total subscriptons do not exceed $350 within 14 days, this proposal fails without prejudice toward any other proposal, sanction, or other action.

4. A designated agent will be chosen to administer the subscription. I'd suggest Gamaliel, or EdJohnston,, or AndyTheGrump; plenty of other people would be entirely suitable. The agent will announce an address, post office box, and/or PayPal account to which contributions may be sent. The Administrator will announce, within (let's say) 90 days, that the requisite sum has been collected and disbursed, that the $350 has been returned, and that the subscription has been wound up. The Administrator will provide receipts or try copies of receipts to donors upon request. Expenses of up to $50 may be reimbursed by the subscription fund; otherwise the Administrator will receive our thanks, but no further financial reward, for his or her services.

5. Additional regulations for the collection and use of the fund are at the sole discretion of the Administrator; in the event of any dispute, the determination of the Administrator will be final.

Summary: this removes any trace or taint of a conflict of interest; none existed, but we'll extinguish here any appearance of conflict and also place Ryulong on what we hope will prove a firmer foundation while restoring his books to him.

I do not expect this to be endorsed -- I expect, in fact, a storm of protest and vituperation -- but I’d like to leave Misplaced Pages on an amicable note and I think this best accords with the better angels of our nature and with what Ward Cunningham originally termed The Wiki Way. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:51, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Request by Super Goku V

I do not believe that any action should be taken right now against Ryulong, but this request has made me request my own. The Draft Article is currently a way for those who want to edit the article to do so as a suggestion on how to improve the article. Currently, the Draft talk page is a redirect to the main talk page. Considering that the Draft talk page does not mention anything about the general sanctions due to this, is it alright to assume that it is still subject to general sanction? I believe that it should, but I want to make sure that this is the correct interpretation. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@Obsidi: Thank you for your response. I was close to certain that it was, but due to how the draft article was done there was no technical notice for editors at the time. --Super Goku V (talk) 16:38, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: Thank you for doing this. That should make sure that if there are any future issues with edits made to the Draft that no one can fairly claim not to have see the warning. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Thargor Orlando

@EdJohnston: you shouldn't close it as no one knows where to put these anymore because the issues aren't being dealt with in either area. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Muscat Hoe

@EdJohnston: With ArbCom taking up the Gamergate case I think this would be best left to them. I disagree that the AN/I request was frivolous and baseless as there is clearly an appearance of COI, but whether it merits any sanctions can wait at this point with the article on lockdown and ArbCom stepping in. Muscat Hoe (talk) 14:51, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by ReynTime

Note: This was originally a direct reply @The Wordsmith:. Moved to the appropriate section. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused about this "promotion of a fundraiser" concept. From what I can tell reading the ArbCom evidence page, this editor has received and continues to receive incessant harassment, organized on Reddit, for making efforts to keep this article free of BLP violations and other problems (although not always in the most congenial way). Someone else on Reddit decided to be kind by gifting the editor a very small amount of funds to deal with a personal financial emergency, a subject which arose spontaneously during a conversation about the edit war occurring on this topic. The editor didn't ask for money, wasn't asked to make any edits in exchange for money, and had been editing the article actively for months before this happened. The use of GoFundMe was suggested by the person making the gift, not the editor. I see no sign of quid pro quo at all, so why does Misplaced Pages care?ReynTime (talk) 04:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Johuniq

@The Wordsmith: It would be very unhelpful for a user to return from a 14-month break, have their admin bit returned, then launch into action against an editor who has been subject to attacks coordinated off-wiki. Johnuniq (talk) 06:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Clerk note

• @The Wordsmith: No "consensus" is required to sanction an editor under discretionary sanctions, specifically WP:GS/GG. If you feel that some behaviour documented here is worthy of a sanction, you are within your power to impose one. If not, then we can close this request as "no action". It is up to you. RGloucester — ☎ 05:45, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Statement by {username}

Result concerning Ryulong

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Why should we even consider this when there is an open ANI thread on this matter? Also, where do you kids get all this energy to keep arguing about GamerGate all day? I envy you. Gamaliel (talk) 04:13, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Good point! If we could harness that energy, we could run a fossil fule-free world, or we could finish some huge project, like an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Drmies (talk) 01:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
• There doesn't seem to be a case for action against User:Ryulong here, at least not on grounds of COI editing. This complaint should be closed. I'm noting that there are not enough admins active here to keep up with the volume of complaints. EdJohnston (talk) 05:27, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• The same complaint about Ryulong was also made at WP:ANI. That thread has now been closed by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise with no action. His closing comment was "Frivolous, baseless and misplaced/forum-shopped request". Can anyone think of a reason why this one shouldn't be closed as well? EdJohnston (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
• @Ryulong:, I care nothing about your offwiki supporters or harassers. What I care about is whether or not your on-wiki conduct violates policy and could bring the project into disrepute. Your offwiki issues are your own, and not relevant to enforcement here. I saw a notice on AN asking for uninvolved, impartial editors here, and that's what matters. The Wordsmith 21:41, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Super Goku V: I created an edit notice for Draft:Gamergate controversy at {{Editnotices/Page/Draft:Gamergate controversy}}. This notice should appear to anyone who hits the edit button. This will make any new contributors aware of the community sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• After carefully reviewing the evidence, I don't think there was genuine editing for pay or off-wiki coordination, I do think the $350 issue, the ongoing promotion of the fundraiser by a subreddit with a strong POV on this issue, and the fact that it has garnered considerable attention (Twitter, etc) does present a problem. As per the precedent at WP:EEML, "The factors to be evaluated in deciding whether off-wiki conduct may be sanctioned on-wiki include whether the off-wiki conduct was intended to, and did, have a direct and foreseeable damaging effect on the encyclopedia or on members of the community". Given the ongoing nature of the financial relationship, I think it would be best if Ryulong were under a one year topic ban of GamerGate-related pages, broadly construed. The Wordsmith 15:12, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• Procedural note: Hatting reversed; please do not close comments containing useful statements and evidence. This makes it harder for uninvolved admins to see all the facts and reach a decision. The Wordsmith 15:26, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• Now that the matter is closed on ANI, I think it's appropriate to consider it here. My initial take on it is close to the first two sentences of Wordsmith's comment. I'm going to go through all the evidence, read it, and remove non-compliant statements before I say more. Gamaliel (talk) 16:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• First of all, I am opposed to paid editing and I think it should be banned outright, so if it were up to me, even borderline cases like this one would be subject to banning. But I can't impose my personal opinions on Misplaced Pages decisions, I have to look at community policy and norms. Paid editing is not banned, unfortunately. The Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest guideline reads "Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question." So even if we concluded that the behavior here amounted to "paid advocacy" and he should not edit the article, Ryulong should still be allowed to participate in talk discussions according to the guideline. If we had some kind of evidence that there was a quid pro quo, that someone directed him to make specific edits in exchange for compensation, then we would have a stronger case here. But all I see is evidence that people who share his preexisting opinions about GamerGate gave him money. (Also, I would note that having an opinion is not the equivalent of having a bias or a conflict of interest, otherwise those complaining about biases would be guilty of having biases themselves and should be banned from the article as well.) At best, he was paid to do what he's already been doing. Perhaps this isn't much different than Misplaced Pages's donation drives or compensating a Wikipedian in Residence. Do I like it? No. Do I think we can take action here? Also, no. If an employee of a political opposition research group can edit Misplaced Pages articles about candidates from the opposing party and not be blocked (see User talk:Sprinkler Court) then I don't think we can ban Ryulong for passing the hat around. Gamaliel (talk) 16:22, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
• I'm not really seeing much of the "COI" issue here. This is a rather atypical situation of "paid" editing – he isn't an employee of the party in question, nor a freelance contractor, and not in any way bound – contractually or otherwise – to edit in their favour. He edited according to his own convictions, completely independently of any relations to those outside parties, and then, after the fact, accepted a one-off gift of gratitude from people who agreed with his edits. I don't see any scenario how he could have edited the way he did in order to gain a financial advantage, and I see no reason to expect why in the future he would be editing in ways other than those he subjectively feels right because of that advantage. In short, I'm just not seeing how this would lead him into a "conflict" between what he feels, in good faith, to be in the best interest of Misplaced Pages, and the interests of the people who gave him that gift. This is fundamentally different from the typical "COI" situations our policy is about. – That said, even if we do apply the letter and the spirit of the COI policy, he has already agreed to not edit the article directly, and that, according to the policy, ought to be enough. On the basis of the COI issue alone, I do not see a case for a wider sanction here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:15, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with you that this is an extremely unusual situation. The compensation came beforeafter the edits, and there was no prior expectation of compensation. If I thought there WAS an undisclosed prior agreement, I would push for an indef topic ban. However, it wasn't simply a one-off "thank you" payment either. The fact that the same person/persons are actively promoting and supporting Ryulong's independent fundraiser creates an ongoing relationship with financial implications. The fact that this has gone public over Twitter, Reddit etc further complicates things. The last thing the project needs is another scandal, hence my quote from the findings in the WP:EEML case. While I don't believe Ryulong is abusing his influence, even the appearance of wrongdoing can be almost as bad as wrongdoing itself. Maybe we could compromise on a topic ban until the GoFundMe campaign ends? This way nobody can raise issues about the relationship between Ryulong and his benefactor, since he'd be staying away from this topic area until the relationship has ceased. The Wordsmith 21:14, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Wait, am I missing something? You said "the compensation came before the edits"; was that just a typo, or did I get something wrong here? And what is that thing about them being still "actively promoting" the fundraiser? I was under the impression he just asked for help to raise one specific sum of money for a specific private purpose, and got it as a one-off gift from a single benefactor? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
    • That was a typo on my part, I've fixed it. As for the promotion of the fundraiser, check the third link presented as evidence. It links to an archive of a Reddit thread with the quote "I am a big fan of the current Misplaced Pages article. I'm an even bigger fan of people stepping up and admitting that they may not be able to continue to approach a subject objectively. Which is why I'm shamelessly bumping a donation drive again. I know, I know, I'm too soft :P" and containing a link to the GoFundMe campaign. That's my main concern here, not the one-off donation. The Wordsmith 22:10, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems there is disagreement over whether or not there is anything actionable here, and further discussion isn't going to change anything. Should we close this as no consensus and impose no sanctions? The Wordsmith 04:52, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this should be closed with no action. If the only argument for banning Ryulong is COI editing, it appears that existing policy won't justify that. But according to what FP said above, Ryulong has agreed not to edit the article directly. EdJohnston (talk) 06:25, 2 December 2014 (UTC)