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RFC: Lists of countries and territories, List of sovereign states, List of active rebel groups and ISIL

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Misplaced Pages has Lists of countries and territories and a List of sovereign states with many subsidiary lists including List of sovereign states in the 2010s. Someone inserted "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" right between Ireland and Israel on that one list, and no other I could find so far. Since ISIL is accurately listed at List of active rebel groups can we have consensus that the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is not a sovereign state, country, or sub-national entity and should not be listed as such. This means we will not list ISIL on any of the referenced lists of States and Countries and that we will not refer to ISIL as having characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities (a capital, a government, currency, defined borders etc) I believe this is the current state of consensus across Misplaced Pages but outside this ISIL article can not find any discussion on this matter. If you agree write Support. If you disagree, write Oppose and provide RS evidence against the above statement. I believe if we start recognizing ISIL as a state we have to alter the recognition and borders of Iraq and Syria Thank-you for participating. Legacypac (talk) 21:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't see ISIL in List of sovereign states in the 2010s. I haven't read the page history, but there may be an edit war. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:33, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Including ISIL in a list does not mean that we have to alter the border of Iraq or Syria if we acknowledge boundary disputes, but the general point is valid. Usually the boundaries are those that are recognized by most of the world's nations, and ISIL is not recognized. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:33, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Not sure this requires an RFC, just a heavier presence of editors on articles like List of sovereign states in the 2010s. The point has been discussed over and over and over in the archives of Talk:List of states with limited recognition and Talk:List of sovereign states, including most notably this long discussion. Consensus that ISIS does not meet the standard is well-established, and there is no reason to change it. Kahastok talk 21:48, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank-you very much, I just found and read that talk page. We do have a few issues on this page about calling them a State or using State like terminology. Legacypac (talk) 21:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

On lists, inclusion or exclusion is pretty binary and so we have to have clear rules that tell us what belongs and what does not. In this case, (just to make life easier for those not wishing to read our discussion), the rule is that we either need recognition (by a UN member state) or evidence that outside experts believe that it meets the standard of declarative theory of statehood (i.e. our own analyses do not count). Nobody has ever been able to provide evidence of either. On articles, we can be a bit more nuanced - but it would be inaccurate and certainly non-neutral to present ISIS as though it were a state. There is no evidence that it is a state under international law, or that any independent government, lawyer or academic believes it to be such.

My experience is that there are a few people on Misplaced Pages who push for the absolute widest possible definition of "state". Often, they don't discriminate - pushing both the extremely controversial cases and the cases where there is no serious international dispute (the Cook Islands and Niue, which are deliberately ambiguous as to whether their status amounts to sovereignty or not) in equal measure. Some people are so desperate to push these entities that they take speeches by Western politicians and ask if they constitute recognition of ISIS. We need to work against this POV pushing just as we reject all other POV pushing. Kahastok talk 22:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Support as per nom. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Any group that has taken over land and rules that land is a state. Markewilliams (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Markewilliams what definition of state are you using? Please see Sovereign state. Also List of active rebel groups#Groups which control territory. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye In the Sovereign state article you referred me to, there are several definitions for what constitutes a state, including this definition: "A similar opinion about 'the conditions on which an entity constitutes a state' is expressed by the European Economic Community Opinions of the Badinter Arbitration Committee, which found that a state was defined by having a territory, a population, and a political authority.". I choose the definition with the most NPOV and the least political agenda.Markewilliams (talk) 14:01, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Markewilliams The text from which that reference is taken, here. This document, according to the title "The Opinions of the Badinter Arbitration Committee", expressed the full view that: "1) The Committee considers: ... b) that the state is commonly defined as a community which consists of a territory and a population subject to an organized political authority; that such a state is characterized by sovereignty;

The article on Sovereignty presents that: The current notion of state sovereignty contains four aspects consisting of territory, population, authority and recognition. This group has no international recognition. It is not a state. You have not chosen a definition at all.

WP:NPOV states that: "All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". This must be followed.

Please also see: List of sovereign states by date of formation for chronologically presented examples of legitimate additions to this list. There are ways in which things are done. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Support as per nominator. - SantiLak (talk) 23:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - If ISIL has territory, a population, and a political authority, then it is a state. I came here based on Legobot invitation. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:06, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator can you quote the definition of state you are working from? GregKaye ✍♪ 01:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

There is an ocean of sources that emphasize these three elements of state. Here is one of them:

Popov, Čedomir. Istorija srpske državnosti: Srbija i Crna Gora : novovekovne srpske države. Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti. p. 12. ... заједница је државна ако лица која тој заједници припадају живе на извесној територији под независном и ефективном владом". Ова класична дефиниција државе подразумева три елемента — земљу, становништво и власт.

Taking in consideration level of independence of the government of ISIL, I would say that it has more elements of statehood than most of other states that are recognized as "independent" today.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:31, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator In 2014 we need content relevant to modern times. A classical definition of state is not good enough. In other instances please provided sources in English that can be checked for context. If there is an ocean of sources then this should be possible.

A reference that I think is useful is List of sovereign states by date of formation. The use of this list shows examples of the geopolitical entities that have been recognised as states. Ban Ki-Moon stated that the group in question "should more fittingly be called the "Un-Islamic Non-State"" as per article content. I have also seen nothing to dispute the UN's wider views on ISIL as being best defined with such terms as "armed group". GregKaye ✍♪ 11:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The argument made here is WP:OR. It seems to be an OR argument that comes up quite frequently, but that does not make it not OR.

The definition in question is the declarative theory of statehood, and the best known expression of that theory is the Montevideo Convention. The Convention holds that if a putative state has government, population, territory and "capacity to enter into relations with the other states", then it exists independently of whether it is internationally recognised. Several Misplaced Pages editors have argued that ISIS meets this standard.

It is not up to Misplaced Pages editors to judge whether a given entity meets the standard, except insofar as reliable sources already do it. This is classic OR territory: reaching novel conclusions not reached by any source based on our own original interpretation of the sources. Numerous editors on the list articles have repeatedly requested sources that actually interpret the evidence in this way, i.e. that say explicitly that ISIS meets the standard of the declarative theory or Montevideo Convention. Not a single suitable source has ever been forthcoming. If, as it seems, there is not a single academic or lawyer or other publisher of reliable sources anywhere in the world that believes that the standard of the declarative theory is met, then our own policies prevent us from reaching that conclusion on our own. Kahastok talk 11:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Just google "war with ISIL" and see for yourself that ISIL has entered into relations with other states.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Then you will doubtless be able to provide me with a reliable source that explicitly concludes that ISIS satisfies the declarative theory of statehood or the Montevideo convention? I look forward to it. If you cannot provide one, of course, then we must conclude that your argument is original research and thus dismiss it out of hand. Kahastok talk 15:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, first you present an isolated quote on a "classical definition of state" from a Russian publication and now you just say Google it. Please make any direct presentation of any content that you think is relevant. GregKaye ✍♪ 16:57, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Classical definition of state is not isolated. Are Russian publications non-reliable?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. If it makes no explicit mention of ISIS then we have no business in applying it to ISIS. If it does, you'll need to quote it. The fact remains that nobody has cited a source for the interpretation that ISIS is a state under any recognised definition of the term. Kahastok talk 18:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The initiator of this RfC believes that "ISIL is not state" and that "we will not refer to ISIL as having characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities". They think that their opinion is based on consensus. I don't think there is such consensus in sources nor at wikipedia. ISIL obviously does have "characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities". Nobody denies that ISIL does have territory, population and government. As you Kahastok explained, Montevideo convention does not insist on recognition. With this you refuted the notion: "ISIL has no international recognition. It is not a state." ISIL government claims it is a state. Some, like Obama and USA-controlled sources, deny ISIL is state. Conclusion: there is no consensus about statehood of ISIL. Misplaced Pages should not be a judge.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

If there is no consensus on the matter internationally, why is it that you are unable to find a single lawyer, academic, or other reliable source, who takes the view that ISIS is legally a state? This isn't a particularly high bar - in fact, if the position was really a matter of no consensus as you suggest it should be utterly trivial to overcome it. And yet it has not been reached, by you or anybody else. Without any such source, all your arguments rely on original research, and thus must be discarded.

As to consensus on Misplaced Pages, I cited it above. It's pretty clear-cut, closed by an outside editor. We cannot say that ISIS is legally a state if no reliable source does. We cannot say that there is no consensus as to whether ISIS is legally a state if no reliable source takes the view that it is. And so far as we can tell, no reliable source does take that view. It's not for Misplaced Pages to manufacture a lack of consensus, nor to suggest that a state might exist without any evidence that anyone other than Misplaced Pages editors think that. Kahastok talk 16:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The consensus exists unless proven otherwise? On wikipedia things go the other way around. If you believe there is a consensus that Islamic State is not state why don't you present some RS which explicitly say there is such consensus? Millions of poeple live on the territory of Islamic State which obliged its population to follow its laws. The population of Islamic State suffer the conseqences of war between Islamic State and US. It's not for Misplaced Pages to manufacture a consensus that Islamic State does not exist nor to ignore evidence of its existence.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Please see WP:BURDEN. The burden of evidence is on those wanting this or any other article to claim that ISIS is - or might be - a state to demonstrate that point. In this case, that's you. We cannot suggest that ISIS is a state, or that there is any possibility that ISIS is a state, if there is not a single reliable source on the planet that makes that claim. It is clear from your failure to cite such a source that you don't have any.

You say we cannot ignore the evidence of the existence of ISIS statehood. At this point there is no such evidence to ignore. Only original research and speculation. Kahastok talk 18:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

No. On the contrary. The burden of evidence is on those who believe there is a consensus that "ISIL is not state" and that "we will not refer to ISIL as having characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities". It is clear from failure to cite reliable sources which support existence of such consensus that there is not any. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not proposing to add or restore material to the article saying anything like "ISIS is not a state". I am objecting to people adding or restoring material describing ISIS as a state. The standard rule remains, if you want to describe ISIS as a state, or in terms reserved for states, you're going to need to provide evidence for such statehood. Your attempt to reverse the WP:BURDEN of evidence is a nonsense argument. If you want ISIS described as a state, or potentially a state, or possibly a state, or a state under any other qualification, anywhere on Misplaced Pages, you need some evidence to back that up and so far you have entirely failed to provide any.Kahastok talk 21:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it is you who try to reverse the WP:BURDEN of evidence. Editors who believe that there is a consensus that "ISIL is not state" and that "we will not refer to ISIL as having characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities" should present RS which support existence of such consensus. Until then, there is no such consensus. I think I gave clear explanation and I don't have anything to add it now. You are of course free to disagree, but you should not expect me to be somehow obliged to keep discussing with you for as long as you are dissatisfied with it. All the best. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

You are the one wanting to put things into this and other articles without any evidence to support it. I have no idea how you could possibly read WP:BURDEN to suggest that I'm the one who needs to find sources to prevent you from saying it. Such an interpretation seems extraordinary as it directly contradicts what is written there.

The fact remains. There is not a shred of evidence from any lawyer, academic or other publisher of reliable sources that anybody independent outside Misplaced Pages believes ISIS to be a state. That is what remains to be demonstrated if we are to say, suggest or imply that ISIS is a state of any form. And in their absence we cannot say, suggest or imply that ISIS is a state of any form. Kahastok talk 22:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure if I will properly explain this, but I will try and it will be my last comment in this discussion. Your position is based on some kind of syllogism (of course unintentional) fallacy. The question here is: Can we have consensus that Islamic State is not state and that "we will not refer to ISIL as having characteristics exclusive to real states or subnational entities" There are two possible answers here:

1. Yes, we can have such consensus
2. No, we can not have such consensus

You concluded that 1) is correct because nobody presented RS that prove 2). You have every right to insist on RS criteria, but it has to be used to evaluate both possible answers. Otherwise one could say that 2) is correct because nobody presented RS that prove 1).

Has any RS denied Islamic State has its territory, population and government? No. Has any RS denied that no country in the world is willing to recognize that Islamic State is state. No. Based on your rationale it is safe to conclude that, for now, there is consensus that Islamic State is not recognized as state. Does it mean that it is not state? No. Does it mean it has no characteristics of the state? No. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

On Misplaced Pages we already have a repeatedly-expressed consensus that ISIS should not be treated as a state for purposes e.g. of list-building. I have already cited an example of the discussions that led to that consensus.

But I repeat, the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. I am not proposing - and I don't see anyone else in this RFC proposing - to put anything into this article that says, ISIS is not a state, or anything like it. Your characterisation of my point misses the point entirely and has no basis in policy. Why should I look for sources to demonstrate that what you propose to put in the article is inaccurate, when you cannot provide sources to demonstrate that it is accurate?

Given that the point has been challenged, policy requires that if you want the article to say, imply or suggest that ISIS is a state - including by giving ISIS attributes reserved for states - you must provide a reliable source to back that interpretation up. There is no such source. Kahastok talk 21:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Comment – ISIL has control of territory, it governs captured territory and its population, and it has an administrative centre. The Islamic State at the moment is both a rebel group and a new state, and "unrecognised state" seems a good description. Cannot justify this view, just seems common sense to me. It is also a caliphate with a caliph, whether or not this accepted by anyone else. ISIL are also terrorists by any common sense view. These are all hard facts, and they have to be dealt with as such in this article. ~ P-123 (talk) 11:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

In the last however-many month nobody has actually managed to provide a source that demonstrates that any independent authority - be it academic, legal or governmental - accepts your analysis that ISIS is a state by any legal standard (as you claim). Without such a source your argument is WP:OR. Do you have one? Kahastok talk 14:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Kahastok: Who are you addressing? I have no source, said I could not justify the view. It is based on common sense observation of the known facts. . ~ P-123 (talk) 16:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that WP:NOR is an absolutely fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and that our adherence to that principle is the only way we can avoid promoting a POV.

Being a state is a Big Deal. It brings with it prestiege and a degree of legal legitimacy, even if statehood is not recognised or not generally recognised. A pretty basic and obvious consequence of WP:NOR is that Misplaced Pages should never ever be the first independent source on the planet to conclude that a state exists. Yet that is what you are arguing. You claim that it is nothing more than common sense to say that ISIS is legally a state - but if it were, then you would be easily able to find lawyers or academics arguing the point. It is not as though ISIS has a very low profile, and it's not as though they are uncontroversial. The fact that you're insisting upon "common sense" overriding the lack of sources to support the point demonstrates amply the problem with making such a claim. Kahastok talk 16:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Kahastok: I didn't insist common sense has to override lack of sources or that the IS should be regarded as legally a state, but it doesn't matter! I agree that WP:NOR is fundamental to protecting against POV and that WP must never be the first to make a statement about what IS is or is not.. Even my comment was OR, agreed. I was confusing facts, such as that they are a caliphate with a caliph and terrorists who call themselves an Islamic state, with their nebulous status as a state, which of course is not fact. My sloppy thinking. But rather than battling it out endlessly on the Talk page as to whether or not the IS can be regarded as a state/unrecognized state, I think it would be better to concentrate on finding Reliable Sources to see what they say on the matter, and reflect those views accurately in the article, but without putting them in WP's voice. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:17, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support We should follow the UN, international bodies etc, which don't recognise ISIS as a state. Governments often lose effective control of parts of their territory to rebel groups. For now, this is just a larger example involving several states. No-one ever suggested we recognize the other rebel-held areas of Syria as a state. Johnbod (talk) 15:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

In that case please change your !vote to oppose because Montevideo Convention clearly says: "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant, in the absence of any source that suggests that ISIS might be a state. Kahastok talk 18:06, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

It is relevant because this Support !vote (and not only this) is based on refuted notion that recognition is necessary for statehood. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Recognition is necessary according to the constitutive theory of statehood. But the word of Montevideo is irrelevant in the absence of sources that make the case that ISIS meets the standard of Montevideo. Kahastok talk 21:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support Having read the supplied links, I see that this has been widely discussed several times. Let's put a nail in it here. (I was pinged via Talk:Administrative division#RfC, which this is definitively not!) Besides, haven't they changed their name a few more times? How about moving the article to Daesh?
  --William Allen Simpson (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

the term "Rebel group controlling territory" is fake term made up in order to replace the term "unrecognized state"

the islamic state isn't just a rebel group with a central goal of toppling some regime. they formed a state with government and other infrastracutes like economy, law enforcment, education, agriculture etc and they keep developing them and calls for various experts around the world to join their new state/caliphate.

the term "Rebel group controlling territory" for the islamic state is nothing more than the false preception of them as nothing more than gang of lunatics who all what they doing is to run from city to city and kill the police and anyone who oppose them but it doesn't true, they are replacing the former goverments in many ways from law enforcment to education.

and that POV pushing is just the one part of a series of POV pushing made by people who can't seperate their justified hate for the islamic state from the article about the islamic state despite the fact that the article should be NEUTRAL and mention facts as they are. and as i already showed her there is some people who are simply too eager to attack everything relating to ISIS from their legitimacy of being caliphate and even for being "jihadist" with nothing but demagogy like the OPINION of some individuals and even just realy stupid and hilarious "arguments" like "ISIS is an unrecognized-state, they aren't a state so they can't be a caliphate".

some people edited this article in a realy bad way which harms wikipedia reputation for being neutral. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 21:30, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

You will find the term originated List_of_active_rebel_groups#Groups_which_control_territory here where the Article is called List of Active Rebel Groups and the section 1st header "Groups Which Control Territory" =>Rebel group controlling territory term used here. That article says: "This is a list of active rebel groups around the world whose domains may be subnational, transnational or international. A "rebel group" is defined here as a political group seeking change through armed conflict in opposition to an established government or governments." Compare to Sovereign state. I hope the clarification was helpful. Legacypac ([[User talk:Legacypac|ta

Legacypac i saw that article and it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of this term on the islamic state case or in general. on the other hand you should read the article you mentioned about sovereign state, that article showed the international law terms for being a sovereign state:

1.having a permanent population. the islamic state have it.

2.defined territory. the islamic state have it and they aren't the first state who have imperialistic territorial claims.

3.the CAPACITY to enter into relations with other sovereign states. they do have the capacity and there is even claims that they have secret relations with turkey and even an embassy.

4.one government. they have it.

the article even talk about states without recognitions from other states so they obviously fit for being called a 'state'.

it mybe more practical to define some rebel groups who conquer some city or territory as part of an armed battle against some government or group as "rebel group controlling territory" but the islamic state is different in the vast organized efforts in various infrastractures from law enforcment and juridical system to education, agriculture, water, electricity, sewage, post offices(in some areas) and even building new roads and facilities. and ofcourse they are a new state and not just some group trying to topple and replace some government in a specific state, so even the term "rebel group" didn't fit to them from the beginning.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/08/18/iraq_isis_terror_obama_us_intelligence_islamic_state

the statehood of the islamic state is talked in many other articles and mentioned by people who live in their territory. so there is no reason to treat them as "rebel group controlling territory" cause they don't just "control" the the territory they realy govern over the territory and the people in it in the level of at least low level third world country.

and anyway most people will agree that for long time the islamic state is no longer some "rebel group controlling teritory".--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we can agree that they fail under "Constitutive theory" as no state recognizes them as a country.

Your list is from the Declarative theory which requires all 4 elements.

1) a defined territory (not stable, shifts daily, requires saying that Iraq and/or Syria's borders have changed, which even Syria's other enemies have never said)

2) a permanent population; (there are no "citizens". They do not have popular support in areas controlled. Refugees all over the place.)

3) a government (they do control local government functions to various degrees, but local government is not national sovereignty. They surely do not exercise the exclusive right to use force anywhere.)

and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states, so long as it wasn't achieved by force whether this consists in the employment of arms, in threatening diplomatic representations, or in any other effective coercive measure. (from Article 11 of the Montevideo Convention) (ummm... fail? and the UN designation of ISIL as a terrorist group pretty much precludes diplomatic recognition.)

Okay, I'd like to point out some problems with your theory: 1)There are areas that are firmly under their control, but that doesn't even matter because "defined territory" doesn't necessarily mean stable. Somalia has defined territory, and it's still unstable in areas. 2) Popular support is irrelevant. Do you think all the dictators of history had popular support? They do have a permanent population, because, "citizen" or not, they have people living in their territory under their rule. It could even be argued that they are "citizens", despite the fact they are not recognized officially as such. 3)Have you even read the reports on their activity in Derna? They have taken over the police force, administrative buildings, schools and other educational programs and facilities, and more. They are quite effective at administering the territory under their control. 4)I'm sure they have the capacity to attempt to enter diplomatic relations with other countries, but since they view most other countries as evil I doubt they will. In any case, that isn't necessary to fall under the category of unrecognized state. 5)Diplomatic recognition is irrelevant. It doesn't need diplomatic recognition to be classified as an unrecognized state. Somaliland isn't recognized by any sovereign nation, and yet it is still recognized as an unrecognized state by this website. ISIL more than meets the definition of an unrecognized state. Back in 2013, when they first formed, they didn't. They were just another insurgent group operating in Iraq and Syria. But this year they firmly established themselves and made major gains, seizing major population centers in Iraq from government forces. Their further success in the June 2014 campaign and the subsequent declaration of the Caliphate has only cemented their status as an unrecognized state. Those of you who argue otherwise have clearly never been to Iraq or Syria, and have not been keeping themselves informed of the situation. I know people who have been over there, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing: ISIL does have control of the territories it holds. They are an unrecognized state. This cannot be denied. Anasaitis (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC) 18:06, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac , Gregkaye(i don't know who wrote that comment). don't try to made up new terms and rewrite the international law and known defenition of 'state'.

1. neither do the territory which syria and iraq control is "stable", not that it means anything about the legitimacy of some state if it loses or gain some territory.

2."not popular"? since when a state needs to be "popular"? anyway you need to stop with those claims of "the muslims don't support them" "they are not popular" and all this nonesense of assuming that you know and can generalize about the muslim world as if they all have the same opinion and somekind of authority, after our discussion on that matter we both know that you don't know much about islam and know nothing at all about the people inside the islamic state territory or muslims in general.

3. local goverment is the big part that makes them from some group who conquer territory as part of a militiary campaign against some specific country to a state that govern its territory and people. the "right" according to your POV has nothing to do with her.

4. they can have it by "force" or various other ways according to the will of the other country, the capacity is all what is matter her and not if they succeded or not in having relations and formal recognition of some state.

the constitutive theory isn't the only or main defenition of state so it doesn't matter if the islamic state isn't a state according to this theory which is problematic from its core cause "recognition" is nothing but formal and mostly symbolic act in many cases like the "recognition" of russia in south ossetia and transnistria as "sovereign states" and part of russia in the same time or like the "recognition" of turkey in the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus"(northern cyprus) which is the same case.

countries like that has no real "recognition" from any country so they are called "unrecognized states" and they aren't the only countries in that situation. so as you can see the constitutive theory defenition of a state is ignored most of the time and that why we have the term "unrecognized state". --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I already noted there are two schools of thought on nationhood - interpretation falls between the two schools.

Wheels of steel0 Can you name any other group in the world that is as rebellious as 'SIL? They have rebelled against the governments of Syria and the democratically elected government of Iraq. They have rebelled against al-Qaeda to whom they previously swore loyalty and from whom they have now been disowned. They have rebelled against a great number of Islamic authorities who have come to the point, in many cases, of calling them un-Islamic. I cannot see that they are anything other than the epitome of a rebel group. Who can you say is worse? Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the term "rebel group" is about the cause and goals of the group and not its personal character. the islamic state don't want to replace the current syrian goverment in another "syrian" goverment and do it in iraq. the islamic state want to conquer those countries and destroying them completely. they even forbiden teachers in their schools to mention the words "syria" or "iraq" and the names of other arab states which they see as fake countries and nations. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:30, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The difficult and uncomfortable truth is that they are probably both. Other language wiki articles on ISIL have two, one for the group as ISIL, one for the group as Islamic state. When is that nettle going to be grasped by the en.wiki article? ~ P123ct1 (talk) 19:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. While I think that the term rebel group is very apt in some circumstances (especially when comparisons are being made to other groups) I agree that it does not give a full or accurate big picture view of what they are about. How about a lead text, "... is a Sunni, extremist, jihadist militant organization controlling territory ..." The link to List of active rebel groups#Groups which control territory can still be attached but perhaps to the words "controlling territory". As far as "status" or "type" in the infobox are concerned I think rebel group gives good description. However, in other situations rebel group does not describe an organisation with slick PR that 'SIL exhibits. The first titles in the governance section might also warrant a revision but no ideas at present. Perhaps a word like promotion could be added to Propaganda and social media. I object to the use of government. This description fails on the basis that 'SIL is not a nation. The infobox should talk of governance not government. They are not a nation and don't have a recognised government. Last time I checked sources did not describe 'SIL as having a government and nor should we. Gregkaye ✍♪ 22:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye the term government has nothing to do with nationality at all. goverment is the administrative system which controll a state, and they are a state as you can see.

the lack of "nationality" as we know it and the idea of being the state of all muslims(kind of islamic nationality) is exactly what made them a caliphate which is also kind of goverment system. many people think that "recognizing" their statehood or being a caliphate is kind of support in them but the fact is that recognition doesn't affect the fact that they are a state and obviously has nothing to do with being a caliphate. they are pan islamic state which is a caliphate. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:49, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the unrecognized "states" wheels mention are both stable and backed by a great power aka puppet states. A rebel group does not need to recognize the legitimate government, in fact they usually reject the government. I never referenced muslims, this has nothing to do with religion - popular support means the people support (or at least recognize but not necessarily like) the group as the legitimate government. Provision of water, power, courts etc does NOT equal sovereignty-if it did every city and province/state would be its own country. If wheels is here to argue that ISIL is a sovereign nation please provide some actual support and come back here after you successfully amend List_of_sovereign_states. This position has been rejected many times all over Misplaced Pages and there is no reason to change this article to conflict with the rest of the project. No one else here sees that ISIL is a state. Legacypac (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

• Wheels of steel0 As far as I see it you are pushing a fairly strong POV. Have you read State. I will readily hear any defence to the contrary but, by my reading, QSIS fails at every level. Please don't say that I "can see" something that doesn't seem to me to fit in with any definition of state. One thing that I found interesting was that the article "Islamic state" does not have a parallel equivalent on Arabic Misplaced Pages. How did this concept originate? Without information to the contrary I think that the most logical answer is to interpret an "Islamic state" as being simply a "state" that is ajectivally described by "Islamic". You need to present evidence of your claim of a concept of a state for all Muslims. This is not how countries and international law works. If say a Czechoslovakian person goes, for instance to Mexico they don't remain in Czechoslovakia. They go to Mexico. They do not remain in the same state. There are only two states most directly involved in the 'SIL story. They are Iraq and Syria and there are a number of rebel/militant, groups/organisations fighting for power in between. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac i didn't gave examples for unrecognized states but examples for "recognition" and how it can't realy determine if some group is a state or not. we can both agree that you don't know how much people like the islamic state in its territory and how much don't like them, but as you can see at yourself many people cooperates with them whether if it is by paying taxes and for other services like water and by using facilities in their control like courthouses and schools and even by complaining to their kind of police about other people.

city may run many similar things but a city isn't indipendent and it is part of a country, that why a city without a larger state which control it is called a city-state and not "rebel group controling territory" or "group of people controling territory".

your demand that i will correct anyother article which made similar mistake with the islamic state is ridiculous. the blind refusal of seeing them as what they are is a mistake that should be corrected on the article about the islamic state before any other article that mention them.

you on the other hand needs to show me how the islamic state doesn't fit to the known defenition of a state instead of trying to made up new defenition with new terms like "popular support" and "the right" to force their rule.

Gregkaye can you show me how you got to the conclusion that the islamic state doesn't fit to those terms? i talked about that with a lot of details so you need to do more than writing your claim without any kind of argument.

the term "islamic state" as a type of country means nothing at all for the legitimacy of the islamic state for being a caliphate or a state so what is your point her exactly?. anyway if we are talking about the arabic wikipedia you should know that the arabic article of the islamic state describing the 'situation' of the islamic state as unrecognized-state as this article did not many time ago.

and what can't you understand in the fact that the islamic state sees itself as the state of all muslims? you talked about nationality and this is the nationality of the islamic state, the same ideology that defines a caliphate and seperate it from countries with none-islamic nationality which force the sharia on the people like iran. so how a person who goes from one country to another has anything to do with the subject her? the islamic state as any other state rule what its rule and the international law have nothing to do with the nationality/ideology of the state itself.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:18, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 Please also do not misrepresent a dictionary defined word such as rebel. This word has a wide range of meanings and it does not help if you make POV assertions regarding one fairly extreme form of its definition. For other views of the term please see search on: "Che Guevara" AND (rebel OR rebellion) and, for instance, content at Star Wars, Rebel Alliance. Throughout history there have been noble rebellions and less noble rebellions. No judgement if meant by the use of the term. It merely constitutes a correct and encyclopaedic description of the situation. This has nothing to do with readers independent judgements of the group and its actions and what they represent.

In your second sentence in you opening statement above you claimed, "they formed a state". I would ask you to look at definitions of state and present reasons based on that content as to why you think that this group fits the related encyclopaedic descriptions. References in reliable sources to reference to the group as being a nation state would also be helpful. The fact is that QSIS, as I am at liberty to describe it, is a rebel group. It has taken control of territory that exists within the border areas of Iraq and Syria. You have claimed that they have formed a "state" but you have not substantiated this claim according to the definitions of the word used.

How a person goes from one country to another has everything to do with the subject. Please read the content of State.Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye it seems you failed to understand that the term "rebel" is not just about the action of the group but also about what they are without being a rebel, while rebels are group(from very small to very big) of people resisting to some authority this term can't be used when the group has formed a functioning state which rule a significant amount of territory.

and for being a state, i ALREADY showed how they fit to the term in THIS discussion, don't try to ignore it:

"

1.having a permanent population. the islamic state have it.

2.defined territory. the islamic state have it and they aren't the first state who have imperialistic territorial claims.

3.the CAPACITY to enter into relations with other sovereign states. they do have the capacity and there is even claims that they have secret relations with turkey and even an embassy.

4.one government. they have it.

the article even talk about states without recognitions from other states so they obviously fit for being called a 'state'.

"

i even commented about the desperate criticism of "legacypac" about it so why you keep talking as if i didn't talked about the terms at all? if you do had some kind of real criticism you were at least talking about the terms and what i said about them ofcourse. and again your ridiculous connection between being a state/government to nationality just show that you simply have inaccurate and false preception of the concept of a state. and it look like you readed the article about state in the same way you "readed" the articles about nation and nationality so don't tell me to read the article about state in your attempt to avoid a real discussion about the terms i talked about and other things from that article which you chose to ignore. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 With regard to your use of the terms "failed", "desperate" and "ridiculous" please see WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL. If you want people to discuss issues with you can you please treat them with respect. I have given options to respond as above. They have no RS recognition as a state. They have no RS recognition as a government. Sources, that I have seen, do not refer to them in these ways. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:30, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye referring sources have nothing to do with her cause as you can see in the article about the term state and in many actual real-life examples the term state is not about any kind of "recognition"(especialy not of some american news network and others) but about actual functionality and facts which you deny over and over again, that why the term "unrecognized-state" exist. you indeed failed in giving any real argument to support your claim and your way of avoiding real discussion and only saying your opinion without any kind of arguments or even referring to the arguments i showed her is desperate. you give the POV of some online news site and personal people as an argument for claims that has nothing to do with the POV of those people you use, and you ignore them when they doesn't have the same POV as you like with our discussion about if the islamic state is "jihadistic" and caliphate.

the problem is not just with your claims but with your whole rhetoric. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 In addition to all the above please read and understand Misplaced Pages:Weasel words with regard to your unsubstantiated statement regarding, "many actual real-life examples the term state". Demonstrate to us all the list of nations that recognise the rebel group QSIS to be a state. Demonstrate a predominance of references in RS. Please don't make unsubstantiated accusations about rhetoric. Again see WP:NPA. I am in no way avoiding the topic of functionality and in no way deny the view of QSIS being an intricately functioning rebel group. This is an irrelevance. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye the term "weasel words" just described the rhetoric you are using now with how you act as if you said anything meaningful about what i said while you are doing nothing instead of having claims without anykind of argument not to mention one that refer to what i just said before. and i already gave you examples for states without recognition that have other names in some media like south ossetia, abkhazia and north cyprus and more, you call it "unsubstantiated"?, don't tell me that you didn't heard about those states cause i mentioned them before in this discussion.

now despite what we know now about unrecognized state and the common terms which don't include any kind of "recognition" you demand some ridiculous demands like "Demonstrate to us all the list of nations that recognise the rebel group QSIS to be a state" and "Demonstrate a predominance of references in RS" despite the fact that we are just talking about how "recognition" have nothing to do with being a state. you even demand "recognition" of news networks as "sources" which only show that you don't know the use of reliable sources, third party sources are used for getting FACTS which the third party sources are likely to know and not the POV of the news network which is obviously not in favor of the islamic state and will keep referring them as a "terror group" instead of a state no matter who will recognize them. this is not the way sources should be used and once again you are using that demagogy for backing your claims while you completly ignore them when you don't agree with them like with how those sources call this group "jihadist".

your rhetoric is desperate and full of demagogy, i don't know if you are just hating this group too much that you have to disagree with everything that these people want to make themselves look like(like with being "jihadistic" and your pointless and presistant opposing for calling them like that) or just realy get things wrong at the beginning but can't backoff from your claims after you made them even when you see that you are wrong. in both cases you need to let go instead of using demagogy and desperate rhetoric.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 just to give you the heads up. I was not the only editor to be looking at the unsubstantiated "unrecognised state" terminology that the article used to use. Another editor added something like a "how" tag to the term as I was simultaneously thought about the issue. The problem is that (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "unrecognised state" gets ZERO results in news. It isn't used. (Now if I had repeated that last sentence as I was tempted to do, just so you know, this would have been an example of rhetoric). The main phrase that I knew to be attested was, (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "terrorist organisation" which is a designation that is attested by groups such as the United Nations. Another editor came up with the rebel group terminology which also has the advantage of fitting in with the content of List of active rebel groups.

As I said, "please read and understand WP:Weasel words. Please read WP:WALLOFTEXT. Please read WP:rhetoric. Please stop making unsubstantiated accusations. Thankyou. Gregkaye ✍♪ 01:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye you just posted a pile of mumblings without any relevant argument as if i didn't just showed you in the previous comment how the POV of the media about how to call them can't be count as RS cause the way they choose to call them has nothing to do with FACTS, and instead of reacting to what i said you just say what you said before just as a long and pointless speech full of accusations and links that actualy describe your desperate rhetoric of making comments that looks like they say something but in fact are empty of any real argument and even barely related to the comment you are responding to.

show me how you think that the way some news network and random online pages choose to call some group can be count as "Reliable Source" for any kind of FACT or comback to the argument about the terms for being a state and finaly tell me your mysterious reasons for why you think the islamic state failed "in any level" for meeting the terms for being a state, and of course don't just throw empty claims again.

if you can't do one of those things you should simply quite from this argument instead of posting more empty speeches that barely have anything to do with the subject or to anything i just said before.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 @ "full of accusations" - cite them! What do you disagree with and why? I am more than happy to talk about "some news network" but usually on condition that the news network concerned fitted into the more reliable side of WP:RS. I wouldn't trust "random online pages" at least not without researching. I tend to be one of the more cynical editors here Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye "cite them" like for saying that i am doing "weasel wording" and "wall of text" which are both done only by you her with your pointless speeches and desperate rhetoric. your accusations are ridiculous with their irony and only used by you for derailing this discussion cause you ran out of arguments. and again, it doesn't matter if you call those news network "reliable" cause the whole "reliable" concept is for FACTS and not for the way they choose to call some group, i hope you can notice the different between telling about something that happened or happening and between using different names for some group. your desperate rhetoric of using the names some news networks use as "sources" for anything isn't just desperate and wrong but also hypocrisy cause in a previous debate on the islamic state matter you just said her that wikipedia should ignore the news networks when they call the islamic state "jihadist" and stop calling them jihadistic on this article, why that wasn't "reliable sources"?...

your desperate rhetoric isn't doing good for you so it is about time that you come with some real arguments and adopt reasonable way of backing up your claims or quite from this argument.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 For WP:weasel words see your statement: many actual real-life examples the term state is not about any kind of "recognition". For WP:walloftext look above. For WP:Rhetoric look at your own repetitions. You have now additionally made a fallacious accusation that I said that: wikipedia should ignore the news networks. You need to strike your libellous attack.

My argument is simple and it is found here: (isil or isis or daesh or "islamic state") AND "a state". Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye i gave you real life examples for states without recognition and that have been called "unrecognized states" so what you couldn't understand her exactly? don't you notice the relation to the subject we are talking about or you just throw blindly accusations cause you ran out of arguments?. i repeat my self cause of your desperate attempts of avoiding real argument and finaly give some kind of argument to support your claim. but instead of showing arguments you are using the WP:walloftext you talked about, giving me a link to some google search with web pages and news articles about the islamic state names that barely talk about their being of state and only mention some letters from a muslim group who asked david cameron not to acknowledge the islamic state nor as "islamic" or "state". you call that an argument? or you just hoped that i wouldn't read the articles in that search?, seems your WP:walloftext startegy of derailing this discussion just failed.

i am still waiting for real and written argument about how the islamic state isn't a state or an argument about why should we adopt the POV of some news networks. don't bother to comment without any of this cause your desperate WP:weasel words and WP:walloftext startegies of avoiding from providing real argument remain obvious and futile no matter how much you will try to blame me in what you are doing.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0 I have not seen that you have given me anything. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0, Please read, Sovereign state. The article begins, "A state is a nonphysical juridical entity of the international legal system.." There is nothing in connection with this group that has a favourable fit with international law. They are an outlawed group. Misplaced Pages is here to accurately report content. We go by realities. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye "part of international legal system"? read about international law if you don't realy know about what it is, you also need to read the article you just mentioned and the terms of the international law i talked about on earlier comments, the article just mentioned the terms of the international law at the beginning but you ignored them in order to make an excuse for another pointless comment.

and i didn't even mentioned the fact that the term state is mostly matter of fact and not of recognition, there is no meaning for the term "outlawed" for being a state, and there is no meaning for the international law itself for being a state, states can follow some UN resolutions or completely ignore them but they are still states. the international law have a defenition for a state but it doesn't mean that being a state is something that needs authorization of the UN like some professional certification. you don't know how to manage a debate and only repeat on your failed and only argument: "nobody recognize them as state"(the bottom line of most of your comments if we ignore all your WP:walloftext) without any reaction to my argument(about the "recognition" thing) and even ignore crucial parts of what you claim to read.

comback with a real argument or just stop posting pointless comments--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Wheels of steel0, GregKaye. Your pointless arguing and continued disruptive editing are a nuisance. You delete any attempts to edit this article so that ISIL is defined as an unrecognized state. You told me there was an agreement by the majority of the other editors, and that it the conversation had reached a consensus. I came to the talk page to add my thoughts on the topic, and what did I find? There was no agreement by consensus that ISIL wasn't a state. In fact, most of the other editors seem to think otherwise. You lied to me and deleted my edits for no apparent reason. I may be new here, but I'm pretty sure what you're doing is disruptive editing and edit warring. Anasaitis (talk) 22:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Anasaitis It would be extremely well appreciated here if editors could address each other civilly without anger. It would also be appreciated if you wouldn't come flying in with unsubstantiated accusation. The fact is that we are building an encyclopaedia here. We go by definitions of words. We attempt to present accurate information. State is a very specifically defined word. We also go by WP:RS. We also can't just present claims that others are not making. We can't use Misplaced Pages's voice on disputable matters. See WP:OR.

The comments that have accompanied my edits have been:

• Removing Category:States and territories established in 2014, The group is not a state. This article is about the group. It may have reorganised territories and when articles are written on those territories, then use
• Please read State, There are many big organised groups in the world. Becoming a state requires political will.

What did I say to you and where? Your talk page contains six edits. None of them are mine. I have not had any edits on my talk page from the Anasaitis login. GregKaye ✍♪ 23:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

If coming here to argue pro-ISIL positions that can't be substantiated with reliable sources expect to run into serious resistance. It has been well established they are not a state, or an unrecognized state. Legacypac (talk) 09:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye why can't you understand the difference between make a statment about a fact between calling or not calling some group in some ways which is about recognition and POV of the writers and not a fact?, the article you mentioned has talked about "statements of fact" which has nothing to do with the recognition of some functioning government as a state or not. we already talked about it but you keep with the same false rhetoric despite the fact that you didn't saw new networks as "reliable sources" for calling the IS "jihadistic" and realy fought against using the terms the news networks use for them. you are using false rhetoric and double standards again, anyone can be a reliable source only if and when he say something that you feel comfortable with.

Legacypac "well estublished"? both you and gregkaye failed to back up your blind resistance for treating them as unrecognized state and infact your only argument was that state can only be a state if they are being "recognized" by some country and ignored the known term 'unrecognized state'.

and you claim that we support the islamic state? like seriously? i am a complete atheist and everybody who support the "pro-isil" you are talking about were probably atheist to or even christians.

i think both you and gregkaye should finnaly understand that "recognition" is meaningless her, the islamic state is functioning as a state and govern their territory as one and this is a FACT, you can like it or not but using different names doesn't going to change the fact that they are no longer some terrorist organisation who managed to drive off the army and police from some territory. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 15:47, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:@Wheels of steel0 your posts suggest you are bias, reuse to follow the sources, and may in fact be part of ISIL's propaganda efforts. You are the one claiming the article is wrong even though it has 100s of sources. You bring the evidence you are right - not up to us to disprove your fringe theories. Legacypac (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac "follow the sources"? you don't know what is the meaning of using sources and what is their purpose, sources are used for backing up FACTS and not the POV about the legitimacy of some group to seize the territory they govern.

you also don't know what is the real meaning of "recognition" of some state(or news network) in another state, you just use desperate rhetoric of claiming that your POV have "sources".

before you accusing me of being "part of ISIL's propaganda efforts" i suggest you to learn about what is sources and about some basic facts about states and politics.

and above all, you and gregkaye need to understand that refusing to acknowledge the reality of the IS existence as a state with functioning government is not "anti-isil" but nothing more than denial of the truth. wikipedia should be NEUTRAL and not sacrifice significant facts in order to reflect the stances of the editors of the article. the truth should be heard as it is and you can be sure that everyone who is against them(including me) don't realy going to be any less against them if he will know that the IS is now a low-level functioning state.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theories in the Arab world"

If Misplaced Pages follows events, then it might consider updating this section to read:

"Given past US attempts to destabilize the Middle East - and bring down the Syrian government - theorists have claimed the US is behind the existence and emboldening of ISIL." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.219.74 (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget us Brits or the rest of the world. The French, I seem to remember, made first international intervention in Libya. I would support the creation of an article to accurately report on any corroborated US or other abuses so as to deal with relevant issues head on. Relevant blame for situations should be fairly apportioned but "given" in this context is a WP:weasel word. Recently the analysis section began with a content based on a citation that listed a range of causes behind the escalated Sunni-Shia conflict. The single issue presented from this in article text related to US involvements. I edited so as to present a more NPOV representation of content following which the content was swiftly removed. Like any form of prejudice, anti-Americanism should not be tolerated in Misplaced Pages. 89.240.219.74 with your limited edits on Misplaced Pages, please consider using a login for the making of edits and talk page suggestions. Gregkaye ✍♪ 02:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

But the US government - aided by UK - started a pointless, costly and bloody war in Iraq. And this war led to Iraq becoming a breeding-ground for the likes of FSA and IS. Clearly, it would be most useful to deal with relevant issues head on. Or is it 'Anti-American' to question the the negative impact United States Government policy?

For it almost as if - by wrapping themselves in the Flag - some folks wish to avoid open debate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.154.190 (talk) 18:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

"Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price—individually and collectively—for their nation’s continued efforts to dominate the global scene". Chalmers Johnson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.154.190 (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Military and arms

Main article: Military of ISIL

In June 2014, ISIL had at least 4,000 fighters in Iraq, http://online.wsj.com/articles/jessica-lewis-the-terrorist-army-marching-on-baghdad-1402614950 and the CIA estimated in September 2014 that it had 20,000–31,500 fighters in Iraq and Syria.

This time the number is accurate, 4,000 in the Jessica Lewis WSJ citation.

(3) The 17 September version of the page has:

"In June 2014, it had at least 4,000 fighters in its ranks in Iraq."

Same citation from Jessica Lewis, but this time this sentence is in the Lead.

It is very clear what has happened. The text has been moved/changed three times, during the reorganisation of the page (note the different section headings), each time moving over the footnote wholesale without checking that it accurately backs up the statement. When the third time the WSJ is quoted, for the 200,000 ISIL figure, to repeat, not only is it wrong because this is the figure for the Iraqi Army, but the article citation, supposedly put in to support the latest estimates in November, is dated June, six months earlier.

What kind of editing is this? There is no excuse for getting citations wrong/misplaced when an edit adds/reduces/changes text to a different version. This is comparable to editors adding a new edit to a text at random, making nonsense of the line of argument in the text, and this happens a lot. I am beginning to think Signedzzz is right in his assessment of the editing in this article. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• I have replaced the WSJ citation with The Independent citation. The article is by Patrick Cockburn of The Independent. These are both Reliable Sources, especially Cockburn, and that they have been given this high 200,000 number by a Kurdish source can be relied on, even if the figure itself cannot. ~ P-123 (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There has been substantial erroneous and skewed content injected at times. It can be important to track down the editors who bring in the errors concerned. It is then advised that editors here should then responsibly follow Misplaced Pages procedure to proportionately and accurately deal with case issues. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

It is almost impossible to find who has made what edits unless it is in the edit summaries. The Wikiblame search tool does not work properly and Hedonil's new tool, which can find who has made a particular edit, is always under maintenance and hasn't worked properly for a long time. But the last thing needed is a witchhunt mentality over this. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

What I do is to copy (Ctrl C) the text concerned, open view history, scroll down to a suitable point and right click on a "prev" link and open in other tab, Crtl F for find, Ctrl V to paste text into the find box and click one of the arrows. Then, depending on the result, I'd scan either up or down the view history list doing the same, going up or down the list, until I find the edit that made the particular change. If the change is large then I will also know that it may be less necessary to check low byte change edits although this is not a reliable gauge. An addition may occur in the same edit as a subtraction.

I also agree with the point about witchhunt. To the extent that I think that there is a possibility of reasoning with an offending editor, I think can be good practice to try to explain things through and try to appeal to an editor's better nature through User talk page discussion. Other editors think it best to file reports at early opportunity to nip offending behaviours in the bud but, either way, a fair and representative case should be presented. Gregkaye ✍♪ 23:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

That sounds complicated. I have sometimes gone to editors' Talk pages about problematic edits and we always manage to sort things out amicably. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 23:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Suspected sock-puppeting always needs nipping in the bud. ~ P123ct1 (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Military and resources

I have changed section "Resources" to "Military and resources" also changing subsection "Military of ISIL" to "Military" and moving this to first item in section before "Propaganda" and "Finances". My thinking is that they are defined as a militia not as a PR or finance group. Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• I'd also suggest that sections "Countries and groups at war with ISIL" and "Supporters" could go before "Military and resources". I think this presents a "what is happening" to "how it's happening" logical organisational flow. Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:38, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Where are we on the status of IS as a state? It would seems that "military" implies that their paramilitary formations are a constituent component of a state, something I'm not sure carries much weight, yet. Hamas' armed component is, for example, referred to as a "military wing". GraniteSand (talk) 08:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. "Military wing of"... terminologies are applied to a variety of political organisations. I used to have a clearer view of the group as primarily having a military focus. However their attentions may get drawn into other involvements especially in cases in which local support is lacking. Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

They are NOT a State. Plenty of non-state actors (including every serious armed rebel group) have some sort of a military. I like Gregkeye's suggested ordering. Legacypac (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Religious Ideology (The Black Flags Prophecy - Sequence of Events in Chronological order)

Ideology of formation of caliphate and their support among Muslims and recent Islamic converts (reverts in Islamic sense) are based from Judaism and Christianity in addition to Islamic prophecies.
The Black Flags Prophecy - Sequence of Events:
Ahmad narrated from Abu Hurayrah that he said: "The Messenger of Allah said: "Black banners will come out of Khurasan, and nothing will stop them, until they are raised in Ayliya."
Ayliya' is the ancient Roman name for Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem).
Khurasan refers to the area of present- day Afghanistan and eastern Persia.

Jewish Scripture describing the war and men of war against Zion:

God planning against the corrupt Jerusalem:
This is what the LORD of Heaven's Armies says: "Cut down the trees for battering rams. Build siege ramps against the walls of Jerusalem.
This is the city to be punished, for she is wicked through and through. (Jeremiah 6:6)
Why Allah punishes the Zionists:
Then said the LORD unto me, The end has come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them anymore. (because they had broken God’s covenant and caused corruption in the Earth) "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "the songs in the temple will turn to wailing. Many, many bodies--flung everywhere! Silence!" (Amos 8: 2,3)

This army is described in the Old Testament of the Jewish scripture:
"Behold, a people comes from the north country, (note: North of Israel are Muslim lands which have faced bitter oppression because of Israel)
And a great nation will be raised from the farthest parts of the earth.
They will lay hold of bow and spear,
They are cruel and have no mercy;
Their voice roars like the sea; (when Muslims shout ‘Allahu akbar’ (God is greater) in unison)
And they ride horses
As men of war set in array against you, O daughter of Zion." (Jeremiah 6:22,23.)
"One thousand (zionists) shall flee from the threat of one,
At the threat of five you shall flee,
Till you are left as a pole on top of a mountain
As as a banner on a hill." (Isaiah 5: 26-30)

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains - a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old nor ever will be in ages to come. (Joel 2: 1-9)

The Army of Black Flags mention in Islamic Prophecy:
"The Messenger of Allah said: "Matters will run their course until you become three armies: an army in Sham (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine), an army in 'Iraq, and an army in the Yemen." I said: "O Messenger of Allah, choose which one I should join." He said: "You should go to Sham , for it is the best of Allah's lands, and the best of His slaves will be drawn there. And if you refuse, then you should go to the Yemen and drink from its wells. For Allah has guaranteed me that He will look after Sham and its people."

Whose interpretation is this?

The above statement was added to the article by Syed Aamer Shah (Scientist) (talk · contribs). If this is an official ISIL interpretation of the prophecies, they can easily be summarized. If this is Mr. Shah's private interpretation of these prophecies (as are indicated by the parentheses), then it is considered original research and it should be removed. I have done the latter for the time being. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 01:38, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Religious Interpretation

This interpretation is based on Jewish, Christian and Islamic beliefs (according to their religious books). The names of the books / Chapters and verses is mentioned after the lines (quotations) which are in bold font. This is work done by some researcher in the book, "Black Flags From The East". The author has preferred to remain anonymous — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syed Aamer Shah (Scientist) (talk • contribs) 04:05, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

A book by an anonymous author cannot be used by Misplaced Pages as a source of reliable information. ~ P-123 (talk) 07:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Annonymous Author Issue

The author will surely risk life if he discloses his name and moreever, the book is published and none of its content can be questioned — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syed Aamer Shah (Scientist) (talk • contribs) 11:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

See WP:RS for Misplaced Pages's policy on citing sources. ~ P-123 (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

What happened with isis control in Al-Anbar

Why did ISIS lose control of land in the province, who pushed them back or did they give it up then does iraq still control it? Weegeeislyfe (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Beside/below the map are links the a page where edits update cities and pther points like border crossings. that is the place to ask. Legacypac (talk) 02:52, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of recent events

See also: Propose scrapping timeline from main article and Timeline keeping

Is this section in a suitable place? I think we'd better move it some where after the Criticism section. By the way, 1.8 November 2014 and 1.9 December 2014 would better be a sub section of Timeline of recent events. Mhhossein (talk) 16:17, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein Issues have been fairly well discussed but without clear decisions being reached. The timeline information is automatically generated in the ISIL document through a process called tranclusion through the use of tags like these: <includeonly></includeonly> being added around relevant bits of text in the timeline article. In the past about 30 days of text were agreed with the result that 30-60 days of text were added to the document but a later view was that 4-7 days worth of text would be aimed for. The month titles are tricky to deal with. They are generated in the timeline document and are transferred and transcluded in. I have previously argued for their removal for the sake of a clean TOC. Another editor kept readding the <includeonly></includeonly> tags around the months which was done for the reason that the transcluded headings bring with them links that permit the editing of the timeline document from the ISIL document. Options now are:

1. To keep things as they are.
2. To remove month references completely.
3. To change take the two previous headings "===Post-June 2014 events===" and "===Timeline of recent events===" and merge them so as to give something like: "===Post-June 2014 events and recent timeline===". This might then be followed by one or two transcluded "===monthly===" titles as at present. (I only thought of this last option thanks to you raising the issue again so thank you for that.)
4. To completely delete timeline info from the ISIL article and just use links to the the Timeline document as has been previously discussed.
5. To move the timeline information back to a later part of the document, perhaps after criticism as you mentioned. It now occurs to me that the section could be moved right down the page to precede the "See also" section. Any such move would allow "==Timeline of recent events==" to be turned into a main (lev 2) heading. This would then mean that the transcluded "===monthly===" headings would be able to follow a normal step across within the context of the TOC.

A decision needs to be made. I don't really care what option is chosen but have long been frustrated that the current situation is a bit of a mess. gregkaye ✍♪ 18:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: Cleanest solution is no. 5, i.e. just before "See also" – but making sure there is a clear note at the end of the "History" section showing readers where to go for latest events in this article. The amount of days covered seems reasonable. ~ P-123 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Clean but with a potential price of dividing history content to separate locations. 4 is also clean but loses direct ref to the content. gregkaye ✍♪ 22:01, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I am sure readers will cope. There is going to be a big will be time gaps between the last entry in "History" and the first entry in the Timeline section however it is done. Anything is better than the current messy headings.~ P-123 (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

@P-123 and Gregkaye: You're welcome, the current state of the section is not nice. I reckon the fifth option is a good choice, too. Mhhossein (talk) 00:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

gregkaye: The font sizes for November and December in the timeline section are different. Can they be made the same? Also, there is no note at the end of the "History" section showing there is a Timeline section at the end of the article. ~ P-123 (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

What has happened to the maps?

One of the maps usefully showed the borders of Iraq, Syria and neighbouring countries. Why has this gone? Editors may be familiar with this part of the Middle East, but what about readers who may not be? This article is being written for WP readers, after all. Every map used by the media always shows the different countries clearly marked, why not this article? It seems like common sense to follow their good example. The maps will make no sense to readers who do not know where the Iraq-Syria border is. ~ P-123 (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

@P-123: which map do you mean? A link to that will help our discussion. Mhhossein (talk) 00:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein: I could not find it. On 2 November I thanked the editor who put in the borders, but his map does not show up on versions of the page around that date. It was in one of the Lead infoboxes. gregkaye, can you help? It was one of Spesh's maps. ~ P-123 (talk) 01:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 map edit history is as follows.

• @Spesh531: "update 11/1/2014 labels" 23:02, 1 November 2014
• @RobiH: label contents as already presented in NPOV form under the map were changed and unnecessarily added to the map: "other Syrian rebels" was changed to "Syrian rebel groups", "Syrian government" was changed to "Assad Regime (Syria)", "Iraqi government" was changed to "Iraq/Shia Army" and reference to the Kurds was edited out. There was also an additional ref of "Israel occupied Syria" added which, for once, actually mentions Israel in reference to, IMO, legitimate wrong. Never-the-less I'd suggest that this is content that is most constructively developed elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. 20:37, 4 December 2014
• @Legacypac: "Reverted to version as of 23:02, 1 November 2014 - terrorist friendly labels included, seek consensus before making such changes" 15:24, 5 December 2014
• @Joan301009 "update" 12:49, 6 December 2014

(I'd suggest a use of the format as of edits by Spesh53 and Legacypac). At least this is what I was going to suggest b4 realising that the map is used on a great number of pages where local languages may not even use Latin script. gregkaye ✍♪ 03:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

This is the map I was referring to. (First one in the list above.) Why was it discontinued? What are the terrorist-friendly labels? I asked for the borders to be put in, and then the map suddenly appeared, was there for a while and disappeared, I am not sure when. ~ P-123 (talk) 08:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Why? See Wikidata on parallel articles. The addition of English headings may not be appreciated by many users across the entire encyclopedia. Lables and and timings are covered in comments above. gregkaye ✍♪ 15:45, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The RobiH version minimized the Iraq/Syria border and splashed Islamic State across the gray zone. It also highlighted Golan heights bright blue and other problems in the legend. It looks like an ISIL propaganda publication. Legacypac (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: I don't understand. The RobiH version isn't the one I am talking about. You say the addition of English headings may not be appreciated ... but why cannot one version of the map I linked to be given the English titles and be used just in this article? I am probably being naïve, but why is everything so darned complicated in Misplaced Pages? ~ P-123 (talk) 02:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

gregkaye: Belated thanks for providing that list. ~ P-123 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Greg said the English headings might be an issue, not me. Each version is saved over the others. Maybe we could save the version we like with English labels as a new file name and use it. Of course anyone could overwrite that file too, but we can police that. The other issue is the map gets updated occasionally, so this article would have to rely on the English version being updated as well as the "no words" version. The no words version has an attached key in many languages. Legacypac (talk) 08:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Good, if that can be achieved without too much difficulty, as readers would be helped greatly if they had a map that clearly shows the borders, IMO. ~ P-123 (talk) 10:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I've raised a question at User talk:Spesh531 regarding a potential development of a parallel file for an image of the map but adapted with English headings. There may also be other editors that could do this or be involved. I don't personally have a clue. GregKaye ✍♪ 05:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Lead

See also Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive_22#Bold change of para order in Lead

I first moved the designations as terrorist organisation part of the Lead to the top and the consensus was to keep it there. I think I made a mistake in moving the criticisms part of the Lead from the bottom to the top to join it, because the first thing that hits when reading the Lead now is that second para of heavy criticism. How does this square with WP:NPOV? It gives the impression that this article is anti-ISIL from the word go. I think the terrorist designations should stay at the top, but UN and Amnesty criticisms should follow the history section , along with Muslim criticism. ~ P-123 (talk) 23:59, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

You may move the criticism section, but I suggest you to have an "Ideology and belief" para there. Mhhossein (talk) 00:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein: Do you mean a summary para on ideology and beliefs? Where? Isn't this covered in the infobox, under "Ideology"? ~ P-123 (talk) 01:26, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, a brief explanation as the second or third para. I saw that infobox. I'm suggesting an explanatory text. However it is only a suggestion. Mhhossein (talk) 01:31, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I have left the terrorist designation sentence at the top as per consensus and moved the UN/Amnesty/Muslim criticism to the bottom, for the above reasons. If this goes against whatever the consensus was please object here. (I think the consensus discussion was about the ordering of the criticisms in that para, not their positioning.) ~ P-123 (talk) 14:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

How does this square with the building of encyclopaedic content. Terrorist is not a primary description of a militia bent on an ethnic cleansing based agenda. Its wrong to mention the terrorist activities and leave ethnic cleansing as a distant after thought. Related criticisms to a departure from the Islamic faith the group claims to profess also has central relevance. gregkaye ✍♪ 15:14, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I consider the effect of the second para before I changed it to show profound anti-ISIL POV, in that barrage of criticism. That is all I will say on the matter and leave it in the hands of other editors who have been involved in this to sort it out: @Felino123, Legacypac, Azx2, Mhhossein, and Gregkaye:. This was the second para - - before I changed it:

"The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused it of grave human rights abuses, and Amnesty International has found it guilty of ethnic cleansing on a "historic scale". The group's actions have been widely criticized around the world, with many Islamic communities describing judging the group as not representing Islam. The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, Canada, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and the UAE."

gregkaye: Please remember that the consensus was to have the terrorist designation part at the beginning of the Lead and that you have to comply per WP:CONSENSUS Please do not distract by repeating all the arguments here that you have put before on this. ~ P-123 (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Please remember that there was also consensus regarding the inclusion of the three contents of criticism within the second paragraph of the lead. Please also note that the consensus for the inclusion of the "terrorist organization" reference was finalised within the context of other criticisms contents also being moved into the second paragraph. The issues were presented together with you taking a pivotal in the promoting of consensus on both issues. Please note that there is no censorship in Misplaced Pages. Arguments, presented fairly and in relation to their topic, are not distractions. This is new thread covering the same ground as a previously discussed topic. Please do not expect editors to refer to previous contents to reference views presented. GregKaye ✍♪ 17:18, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: What are the blue links at the top of the discussion for? That means I have gone against consensus. I was not sure. Do you want to take me to AN/I? ~ P-123 (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 The link, which I had added here, was added with the intention to allow editors to do some background reading if they wanted to. You have bloomed into a phenomenally competent editor. I don't think that bud-nipping would serve a purpose. GregKaye ✍♪ 18:04, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye: Sorry, didn't realise you had added that link. Thanks for doing that. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 NP! GregKaye ✍♪ 20:08, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

If a content is to remain in the early part of the lead it should be that, "The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the group of grave human rights abuses, and Amnesty International has found it guilty of ethnic cleansing on a "historic scale". Something similar on these lines would also do or both contents could remain. They are not primarily a terrorist group. They are a group that has named itself in terms of Islam and which many in Islam regard as unfaithful. The presentation of clear facts should not be considered a distraction. gregkaye ✍♪ 16:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

In the article I have arranged content in the sequence:

• History
• Group goals, structure and characteristics
• Designation as a terrorist organization
• Human rights abuse and war crime findings
• Criticism

Consensus was reached to raise designations above content on criticisms. I do not see the point of splitting it from parallel contents on war crimes etc. gregkaye ✍♪ 16:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye: what do you mean by a 'primarily terrorist'? It is only mentioned that ISIL is designated as terrorist by some organizations nothing more, nothing less. However, I don't think moving the first sentence of this para to the end of lead can help with solving the POV problem (if there exist any). The only way here is to balance the paragraph with the viewpoints of other groups who support it. Mhhossein (talk) 19:15, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein Fair enough, the group has previously been associated with al-Qaeda by the UN and this is now accurately presented in the relevant text. A common conception of terrorist is of a car or suicide bomber or a person who flies planes into buildings. I do not see that this relates to the central allegations concerned and think that there is more relevant content to use. gregkaye ✍♪ 19:30, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

gregkaye According to the definition presented here, common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal. As I said, they are designated as terrorist. what's wrong here? Mhhossein (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein Its funny, that was the exact qualifying text that I placed above the table in the "designation" section and editors wanted it removed. Looking at that quote we see that for a terrorist, terror is the defining means to their end. For a militia the main issue is the application of force to achieve goals. The aim is to wipe out enemies, take territories and, in this case, also to wipe out any people within which a potential for rebellion is suspected. 'SIL is a religiously motivated group that, as far as I have heard, are pursuing a clear agenda of purification. The main outcry against this relates to the fact the they kill swathes of population. The main issues in this case are war crimes, ethnic cleansing and extortion. In cases in which an individual is not regarded as a military threat but does not possess an accepted form or level of belief, then that individual will be required to pay in various ways. This is not lottery terrorism as might be related to "attacks". This is systematic persecution. It's not terrorism in any conventional sense. It goes beyond that. I don't see that a reference to terrorism in early isolation as being encyclopaedic. gregkaye ✍♪ 20:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The group clearly uses terrorism, but they also commit war crimes, human rights abuses etc and there is overlap in these crimes. Legacypac (talk) 08:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac I quite agree and this is where I think a balance of information should properly be presented with united content within the lead.

We should retain perspective that this criticism content constituted, on my browser and screen, five lines within thirty-four lines of text in the lead. Its not much. I certainly don't think that this constitutes a barrage of criticism but, even if it did, I do not think that this would be disproportionate to real world realities. I would not even say that it would be unfair for the "Criticism" section to be renamed "Barrage of criticism". Such a description would accurately present the reality of what the group have received both within the Arab world and internationally.

I agree with the comment connected with the original move of content, "best to keep terrorist designation and criticisms together, not split between top and bottom". At minimum the human rights abuse/ethnic cleansing content should also be presented with justified prominence. Designation as terrorist, while being a serious issue, is still basically name calling and I think that it should be accompanied by a substance based content. There is obviously relevance in Islamic criticism. There is a minimal content on criticism in the lead. In context I don't think that an early outline of criticism that gives way to other content isn't warranted. gregkaye ✍♪ 15:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

gregkaye I agree with you when you say:"Designation as terrorist, while being a serious issue, is still basically name calling and I think that it should be accompanied by a substance based content." Mhhossein (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Mhhossein Other editors may have other views but how far do you think the accompaniment should go? GregKaye ✍♪ 18:28, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye As I said before, I don't think moving the first sentence of this para to the end of lead can help with solving the POV problem (if there exist any). Mhhossein (talk) 03:08, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein agreed, There are different contents of criticism that can join content on designation in the second paragraph. I think the current state of the lead works though. thoughts? I have always pushed regarding my perceived relevance of Islamic criticism in relation to "Islamic State...". Other content includes The UN and amnesty statements on rights and cleansing which I have moved currently. GregKaye ✍♪ 03:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

GregKaye Oh, we should not forget to mention the reaction of Islamic world toward ISIS. did you call it "Islamic criticism"? How can it be done? Mhhossein (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein There are contents in the lead currently. My POV is that the Islamic criticism content is of great relevance to the subject but, having looked at the new edit, think that it might either be given mention either at the beginning or end of the lead. The current edit places two topics of criticism in the second paragraph. A fair argument has been presented that the beginning of the lead could be criticism heavy but the Islamic criticism is important. I don't know if there is a right answer on this. GregKaye ✍♪ 04:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye and P-123: I reckon the reaction of Islamic communities toward this group is more important than other designations and criticisms and I don't know why the only sentence which deals with this matter (how Muslims think about them) is at the end of the lead and apart from the second Paragraph. Why should it not be at the beginning of the second Paragraph? Mhhossein (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein: There has been a lot of discussion about the second para and its sentences, not only in the two linked threads here, but earlier. But if you read the thread linked to this one in blue at the top first and then this one, you will see how this happened. ~ P-123 (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein The situation a short time ago had been that the human rights/ethnic cleansing contents came first, the Islamic criticism came second (in this context) and the international designations came third.

I misread your comments and started by writing about the extent of critical content in the lead. I will post on your talk page. GregKaye ✍♪ 16:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein : I found this when looking for something else, and it is more about the criticism in the Lead. ~ P-123 (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Polite Notice.

After months of trying, please note that I will no longer be correcting these name spellings, as whenever these misspellings are corrected they are very often altered back, but only here and there, which means there is no consistency, so you may see different spellings of the same name throughout the article at any one time:-

• al-Qaeda ("Al-Qaeda", "al-Qaeda", "Al-Qaida", etc and often "al-Qaeda" at the beginning of a sentence)
• al-Nusra Front ("the al-Nusra Front", "al-Nusra Front", "Al-Nusra Front")
• Al-Qaeda in Iraq ("al-Qaeda in Iraq", "Al-Qaeda in Iraq")
  

~ P-123 (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Notable and quotable

I've just taken a visit to the Wikiquote article connected with the 'SIL page. I didn't recognise the names of the people quoted and when converting the names to links they came up red. Any thoughts on this. I also think that it would be great if editors could keep the Wikiquote page in mind for times when we find genuinely notable and quoted quotes. Does anyone know anything related to Wikiquote guidelines on this? I didn't think that the existing quotes represented a balanced content and thought that existing or other editors could look at this.

Pinging editors involved in the page: @Allixpeeke: @Mariomassone: @UDScott: @BD2412: as listed at https://en.wikiquote.org/search/?title=Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant&action=history

GregKaye ✍♪ 04:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Pro-ISIL and anti-ISIL

There is recently much talk of editors being "pro-ISIL" and "anti-ISIL". What do these two terms mean, exactly? ~ P-123 (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The terms "anti-ISIL" and "pro-ISIL" have not appeared in the talk page and archive that much. Here are the instances:

• Revision as of 16:53, 23 July 2014 User:50.53.148.252 "anti-ISIL propaganda"
• Revision as of 12:38, 4 November 2014 User:Felino123 "the views of anti-ISIL Muslims"
• Revision as of 21:17, 19 November 2014 User:P-123 "anti-ISIL propaganda"
• Revision as of 23:59, 8 December 2014 P-123 "this article is anti-ISIL from the word go."
• Revision as of 15:58, 9 December 2014 P-123 "profound anti-ISIL POV"
• Revision as of 09:12, 14 December 2014 User:Legacypac "pro-ISIL positions that can't be substantiated"
• Revision as of 15:48, 14 December 2014 User:Wheels of steel0 ""pro-isil" you are talking about were probably atheist to or even christians."

Any answers? GregKaye ✍♪ 04:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

To me, "anti-ISIL" means criticism of ISIL placed prominently in the article. This was a problem before but is now resolved, except in the Lead, where to me the second paragraph looks like an attack on ISIL before the article has started. Others may think differently. Neutral presentation of facts has sometimes been seen as being "pro-ISIL", but being neutral must not be mistaken for whitewashing ISIL. Are there other views or is this subject not worth examining? P-123 (talk) 12:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Pro-ISIL is presenting the ISIL narrative as factual - other then where we specifically say "ISIL claims xyz" or "so called" followed by appropriate qualifications. That starts with statements suggesting they are a sovereign state. As for criticisms - we can't accurately deal with ISIL without placing the criticisms next to the claims because 99% of the world does not like virtually every ISIL actions. Legacypac (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

No nation recognizes ...

The article still asserts in the "Criticism" section, "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Whether or not that is true is not the issue, the issue is that an assertion like that in WP's own voice does need a citation, otherwise it looks like WP:OR by Misplaced Pages, which Misplaced Pages has to guard against. Can a Reliable Source be found to back up this statement? The wikilink to the diplomatic recognition article though useful does not help to prove anything, as it is only an explanation of the mechanism by which sovereign state recognition works. There was some discussion about this before and for the newer editors perhaps Legacypac could restate his reason for leaving this sentence uncited. P-123 (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Obviously this is linked to discussion #1 on sovereign states, which is why I brought it up. P-123 (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

a) its is an undeniably true statement - diplomatic recognition generally confers statehood and that is a big deal. No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise.

b) the US President sai it in an address heard round the world. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/10/statement-president-isil-1 4th paragraph. "ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government, nor by the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way."

c) Here is a legal scholor: http://warontherocks.com/2014/07/the-islamic-state-isnt-a-legal-examination/#_

d) When the head of the UN says “Un-Islamic Nonstate” why is anyone debating this?

Legacypac (talk) 17:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You say "its an undeniably true statement ... No one has provided one source that suggests otherwise." Absence of proof is not proof of anything. It is a classic logical fallacy. One cannot say something is true because it has not yet been proved to be false. You quoted Obama as though he were infallible on this point, but is he really? Has his department researched this? Whether or not, his statement could be cited to support the sentence, as the US's view on it. As for legal scholars, they notoriouly disagree on the interpretation of legal points! Ban Ki-Moon, again, is just stating the UN's position on this. The most that can approximately be said, using all those sources, is "Nations, international bodies such as the UN and legal experts do not recognize the group as a sovereign state". That would be accurate. I think the wording should be adjusted accordingly along those lines, perhaps with some more citations of the type quoted (countries that have specifically said this, for example) to back it up. P-123 (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac has asked me to remove my above response, but I think this is an important point. I do not see how his examples verify the sentence "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state". The way the idea is expressed at the moment is an example of WP:OR by Misplaced Pages, in my view. P-123 (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

As a move forward I have added the second link to the text as follows: No nation ] the group as a ]. A link was already made to Diplomatic recognition and there are other sources on this topic available. Misplaced Pages also has a list of List of states with limited recognition and I presume that it would be perfectly possible to check the situations surrounding changes in recognition statuses. P-123, can I ask the extent have you checked through the issues surrounding this subject before raising the thread here? You previously said to me that you thought I would doubt that "the cat sat on the mat". There is certainly no indication of state like recognition. Can you demonstrate a form of circumstances in which a valid form of recognition, if those are the right words, may have occurred? If you can do this then this would help your argument. There has got to be some form of substantiation in this debate or we may just end up pushing opinions. GregKaye ✍♪ 01:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

My main point really isn't complicated, Greg. This isn't a "cat sat on the mat" issue. Forget for a minute the question whether they are or are not a sovereign state. Forget my quibble about the logic. Just concentrate on the wording. "No nation recognises the group as a sovereign state." Who says? Without a firm citation, WP does, and it cannot do that, per WP:OR. Either find some RS which say that categorically and report it accordingly, or rejig the sentence in the way I have said, with supporting citations. Am I making sense? P-123 (talk) 02:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Certainly we need a reliable source to express that sentence and as you know, we can't write our own conclusion and understanding from reading the sources. As P-123 said, "No nation recognizes the group as a sovereign state," needs a citation. But the question is that, what sources are eligible to say such a thing? Mhhossein (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

If a nation gave recognition to 'SIL as being a sovereign state then this, I think, would be an extremely newsworthy event. I think that there would be particular controversy amongst the Arab nations. Perhaps we can add a footnote to say something along the lines of "as reported". Any reader going to the list of states with limited recognition would look at an entry and be likely to say there are this many states recognising and that number not recognising.

The logical fallacy argument logically only goes so far. It may be difficult to say for sure that there is no masked intruder somewhere in an otherwise empty building. However, if the building was full of alert individuals with good communications or if there was an alarm system in an empty building then it would be obvious whether or not there was an intruder present. I think that the same is the case in this situation. (If it were a subject worth reporting we might even know whether cats were on mats. In comparison the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable.

For instance WP:OR states that: the statement "the capital of France is Paris" needs no source. Similarly I think editors can justifiably write that, for instance, the airplane concord is not in service or that no nation recognises 'SIL as a Sovereign State. We check the news and know that concord has not been brought back into service and that there are still no nations giving recognition. GregKaye ✍♪ 06:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye: You say "the issue of whether 'SIL has been recognised as a sovereign state is extremely reportable." If it is, can we have some examples of countries or international organisations which have said they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state, apart from the US and the UN? Those are the sort of examples needed to back up this sentence (see below). I don't know how to search the web for this. How is it done? Don't want to keep asking you to do jobs we could perhaps do ourselves! I don't think for this particular sentence we need bother our heads whether or not ISIL are a sovereign state, do we? We just go by what the Reliable Sources say about it, i.e. "Country X says that they do not recognize ISIL as a sovereign state". No need for exotic cats on exotic mats in this particular instance, I think. P-123 (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This would not even be a debate except that ISIL calls themselves the "Islamic State" and asserts all other governments are void when the IS armies arrive. It is truly a crazy thing to say - and has been declared not true by POTUS, the UN Sec Gen, about 60 nations agreeing to destroy ISIL and by the legitimate governments of the countries in which they hold territory. The sources provided are beyond definitive on the topic. Legacypac (talk) 06:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is as simple as Legacypac says. Just a few more RS examples of countries that do not recognize are needed. As I said before, those along with the other sources Legacypac gave would be enough back-up, problem solved.

I shouldn't have brought up the logical fallacy point, as it was a red herring. I had little doubt "no nation recognizes", just took exception to the illogical assertion that because there is no evidence to the contrary, that must be true. Sorry to have been such a pedant about it. P-123 (talk) 09:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I certainly think that there is merit in the raising of the issue. I'd also broach the question as to whether the addition of a footnote may add qualification. An explanation of the permitted type of OR used may, I think show the extent of assumptions made. Yes I've mentioned assumptions and think that assumptions can fairly be made. For instance in an article on London Bridge it might be fair to say that there is a modern version of the bridge spanning the Thames and an assumption is that, since the writing of the article, the bridge has not fallen down. The "No nation recognises.." is dependent, at the very least, on press reporting. GregKaye ✍♪ 21:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That is what I meant by RS citations to back this up. Some reliable press reports that Country X, Y or Z does not recognize the group as a sovereign state. But I don't think any assumptions can be made here at all. P-123 (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Joint statement by 60 nations that they will degrade and defeat and will be "Exposing ISIL/Daesh’s true nature (ideological delegitimization)" .http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/12/234627.htm is approximately the opposite of diplomatic recognition.

One of the tests is "the capacity to enter into relations with other states" but when they captured Mosul, they took the entire Turkish consulate hostage - pretty much the opposite of entering into diplomatic relations. Legacypac (talk) 18:47, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't dispute the basic accuracy of the statement. It is just that citations are needed for it. I think that one is probably enough for the countries not recognizing ISIL as a sovereign state. P-123 (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I have no confidence that any nation would even give lip service to the idea of considering ISIL as a sovereign state. I wouldn't be surprised if Ban Ki-moon type comments covering the wider topic that they are not a state may have been used a number of times. To talk about being a sovereign states is an even more specific topic and I doubt that any government would touch it. GregKaye ✍♪ 21:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

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