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Poor English, unreliable sources, "Pakistan victory"?

The quality of this article seems to have degraded significantly. It cites Indian casualties with some Pakistani nationalist site "pakdef.info" while Pakistani casualties are cited to some non-existent site (the link leads to some music portal for mp3 downloading; no relevance whatsoever). And it calls the result of the conflict a Pakistani victory ("Result: Pakistan victory. Pakistan annex the southern part of siachen while India keep hold of the northern part of siachen"). This is quite a stretch, to put it lightly. The article itself, using valid citations, says that Pakistan lost 2300-2600 sq km of territory that it formerly held and that almost the entire Siachen glacier is under Indian control (70 km long including high ground vs. Pakistan's 5 km). The previous versions of the article say that the conflict resulted in and Indian victory. I'm reverting this article to a previous version that has legitimacy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.247.3 (talk) 07:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

==The wording seems too Anti-American. Like one example, "maps deliberately show the glacier." That is an opinion, while if the line said "The maps show" this conveys the exact message without injecting one's opinion 99.26.91.7 (talk) 06:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)eric

"War in the sky" ?

In a recent Norwegian television documentary on water-related international conflicts it was stated that this conflict is sometimes termed "the war in the sky" or "the war in heaven" (Norw. "Krigen i himmelen"). I have tried to do some Google searches to try and confirm this but I have been unsuccessful. __meco (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Strength of troops posted in Siachen

The TImes article states that both have about 3000 troops in Sachen. that changed 3000 to 6000 by Hassanhn5 (talk) seems to change this fact. i have reverted the figure back to what has been cited in the source article. regards --dBigXray (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It was driven from the fact that Indian army ordered double the no of outfits as compared to the Pakistan army after they got information through their intelligence source. Fine if you linked a source, but I'll still advice other editors to verify. --lTopGunl (talk) 05:42, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Please remember that figures in the article need to be supported by reliable sources and not common knowledge or inferences. AshLin (talk) 08:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It was from the mentioned source, which said Indian army was sending in double troops as it had knowledge about Pakistani troops. Either the source is self contradicting or the figure was correct. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The link provided in the reference appears to be dead. The source could not be accessed through the WayBack Machine and neither did search on Times Archive provide the article. Can you provide a live link of the reference? AshLin (talk) 08:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I just verified the reference. It was linked to the first paragraph of fighting section of the article (from which I took the previous figures), but after reading the story by the magazine, it doesn't have any thing related to the content, so I'm adding a citation needed tag to it so that some one can find a proper reference. Also, time magazine places the no of Pakistani troops to be 800. I'm fixing the figure too. --lTopGunl (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• well lTopGunl you are changing the figures and also Disrupting the links so that the citations no longer work. your statement clearly shows that you dont even bother to read the mentioned sources completely , and give lame excuses for your editings that can very well be called Vandalism. Your arguement of Claiming to be editing on Misplaced Pages:Goodfaith will not work then. I encourage you to read the 3 page article again . it clearly states that Pak ordered 150 and india ordered double that is 300 . it does not mean India has 6000 soldiers. please check it again without reverting and editing Misplaced Pages articles or you can be blocked again.

AshLin The link is no longer working as Mr lTopGunl have disrupted. i have now repaired the link and the citation. the article states that Both "India and Pakistan have 150 manned outposts along the Siachen Glacier, with some 3,000 troops each." Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1079528,00.html#ixzz1aYpeKGj3 --dBigXray (talk) 10:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I have not disrupted any citations. This link was working very well. What ever you 'fixed' still shows 800 troops from Pakistani side:

"The two neighbors nearly waged a full-scale war in 1999 when 800 Pakistani soldiers disguised as militants scaled a 5,100-m-high ridge near Kargil in Indian-held Kashmir and began shelling a major road used by the Indians to supply their Siachen outposts." Read the article before quoting. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear lTopGunl (talk) please discuss it here and leave the administrators to do the editing if any on this article page. yes you have "Deliberately broken " the citations so that they cannot be verified . user AshLin and me both have checked that your editing has done that. if you still disagree you can check your history --dBigXray (talk) 10:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

All the citations were working perfectly fine in my final edit. I've just tested them from the history. Stop trying to deviate from topic.

The story from times has a clash with its own text stating the figure to be 800 on the first page. Another source is needed.

Administrators are not the only people who can edit articles. If you're not familiar with wikipedia's policies, read WP:BOLD. And donot turn this discussion into a flame war, refer to WP:Civility. --lTopGunl (talk) 10:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It is possible that 1TopGun1 has some kind of permitted access for the links he is adding but the links are not accessible to the common editor hence his information is unverifiable even if correct. Disagreeing with your edits on this ground of broken link and unverifiable text does not constitute a flame war. AshLin (talk) 04:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png

According to the image File:Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png, Jammu and Kashmir is not claimed by Pakistan. I don't think this is true, and Pakistan seems to claim the territory. So the image should be changed.VR _talk 23:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with that, the image should be edited. --lTopGunl (talk) 23:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Replaced it with Image:Kashmir 2007.svg.VR _talk 06:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Saqi Map Kashmir Standoff 2003.png Nominated for speedy Deletion

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15000 casualities??....That's not even the strength!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am very amazed to find 15000 casualties on the Indian side.That is not even the strength of the Armed Forces.Morever, the source is an agricultural book and I donot understand how casualties of a war would be mentioned in it.I also see that the editor removed the casualties of Pakistan but placed 15000 casualties on Indian Side.Srikar Kashyap (talk) 11:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed a nice review of my edit. I undid addition of unsourced figures (that was added just before my edit) along with adding sourced figure. And I was just about to add an explanation in the body. If you have a sourced figure for Pakistan's casualties please add it. Now coming to the point, the strength of Indian troops is the number of troops at Siachen glacier at a time, and casualty figure gives the number of troops died since 1984. I hope it helps you understand it. About the source, it is a book on Global warming & environment and since Siachen conflict is adversely affecting the environment of the region, the book is very much related to it. --SMS 12:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

OK...But 15000 is quite a large number and I think more sources are needed to support it.Or else, unknown is better.Do you have any other sources than that book to prove 15000 casualities?.Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@SMS Are you kidding me? Using figures of Casualty at Military frontline at Siachen from the book A Textbook of Agricultural Extension Management- By K.R. Gupta , This source for the mentioned content of Indian casualty can not be considered as a reliable source please revert your edit or bring a better source.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 15:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@Srikarkashyap probably you missed informing User:Darkness Shines and User:JCAla.

@DBigXray Have you even looked at the source? Read my reply above? Do some research before simply disagreeing to something on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Read the name of the book on its cover. --SMS 15:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

@SMS-You have NO RIGHT to talk about my edits.Don't act too smartly.That's my wish.You don't sensor whom I inform.You can also happily inform your friend, TopGun.Don't try to divert the matter.Srikar Kashyap (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

<You have no right to tell me who is my friend and who can I inform. And yes I have the right to talk about your inappropriate edits. And don't try to make a simple misunderstanding into a full blown issue. --SMS 16:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Simple misunderstanding?..please can you explain what do you mean by that? Srikar Kashyap (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Misunderstanding that casualty figure cannot increase the troops stationed at a place at a time. --SMS 16:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Relax guys dont act silly here,first I would request both of you to strike off lines that is considered impolite and mud slinging from above. Also i do not appreciate taking names of another editors un-necessarily here, Lets just focus on the content and the source. now about the book I have already seen the book and the corresponding line, and i am still saying that it is not a reliable source for this piece of information. this is not wp:IDONTLIKE but a question of wp:RS-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 16:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• Srikar Kashyap, I've dropped you a note on how to go about editing. Please do not invite users who share (or might share) your point of view to a debate like this. This is usually reported to administrators and is a blockable offense. I was the first one to actually notice this, and see SMS's explanation on his talk page, it was clarified. There's no discrepancy here. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• We very well know what book we are talking about I agree that the figure in question was mentioned here in article as a casualty figure since 1984 but to quote a specific number in such an important article it needs to be properly sourced. and the book on agriculture is probably not the book you should be reading to find the number of dead on the line of control-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I asked you to see the source book as you were referring it as a book on Agriculture and I see you still are saying the same. Can you explain by quoting text from WP:RS as to how this source is not reliable? --SMS 17:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you first clarify please that this Titled A Textbook of Agricultural Extension Management by K.R. Gupta is the book you referred above ? also clarify is it not a book on agriculture ? -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 17:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This (Title: Global Warming (Encyclopaedia of Environment)) is the book I am referring to (that is why I requested to see the cover of the book or for more detail see the contents of the book). And it is not a book on agriculture as it discusses global warming and other environmental issues rather than agriculture. --SMS 17:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

• The content as I see is clearly sourced from by K.R. Gupta which seems to be on Global warming (or agriculture) which makes this book unsuitable for its use as a Primary source for claiming the military casualty figures of 15,000. Unless we have a proper reliable sourced figure whose authenticity can be confirmed the Casualty figure should remain as "unknown" wiki articles are not a place to harbor unsourced claims specially on something as sensitive as this Casualty figure. -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 20:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Since majority of the casualties are from the climatic condition of the area rather than in a military battle, so that is why the source (which discusses the climate of the region) is very much relevant and suitable here. --SMS 20:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on void arguments. You clearly are arguing on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Further sources for you: , Casualty rate of Indians is 4 times higher than Pakistani troops. --SMS 21:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

May i ask the expected courtesy of giving the fellow editor the page number of the relevant information in your source? -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 21:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Here you go: (Page 2, Section: The limits of efforts and endurance, Page 14, first para). --SMS 21:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

1. paper by Aamir Ali pg 2 last para does not clarify how he reached the magic number (or wild guess ? )of 15,000 Casualty and there is still no source supporting the figure of 15,000.
2. Page 14, first para has given the source of the "4 times higher" claim from globalsecurity.org. which is clearly not acceptable here another thing to note is global security gives its own number of casualty , which cannot be relied upon as global security is not considered wp:RS

Both these refs are useless as far as this wiki article is concerned-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 11:59, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Please do not editwar. The fact that I reverted to a version means that the consensus has changed. See WP:CONSENSUS. There's no "consensus version" of the article. --lTopGunl (talk) 12:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

TopGun Do not restore the wrong version, and you cannot claim consensus just by your own opinion, i dont see it so far. Besides do not accuse me of edit warring while you do the reverts(edit war) and show complete disregard to this discussion here and claim your own imaginary consensus. I have stated my points clearly above, reply to it-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 12:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

You were the one claiming consensus here. If you think the version is wrong, other editors already think it is right. See WP:The Wrong Version. Clear your concept about consensus from WP:CONSENSUS. A revert already means changing consensus. Also you've reverted two editors... so.. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense to let the casualties remain as unknown till a consensus on a reputable source is reached.However, User:AshLin has given two credible sources.

• ] unrelated link

Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Lol @credible sources (an AMD support page and a blog). @DBigXray You clearly have a wrong understanding of WP:RS. No one in this world can provide sources you are asking for. --SMS 13:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @TopGun I dont see where have i claimed consensus? the matter is in discussion with no consensus achieved so far, and you unilaterally decided to claim consensus and decide to revert and then go a step furthur and blame me for edit warring, great
• @Srikar both your links are useless for this article.
• @SMS so far we do not have a source for 15,000 claim, which effectively means it will not be added to this wiki article, Wiki articles are not a place to put such poorly sourced figures/ you are of course free to raise the issue further. regards -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 13:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'm very sorry..I added the wrong link...this is the correct link I intended to give
• ] Srikar Kashyap (talk) 13:16, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @srikar the 7th link (rediff) you mentioned above seems to mention combined casualty, hence unsuitable for the infobox, as we need clear individual casualty of the two sides for the infobox.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 13:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• @Xray! No....click on next....in the next page...it even gives estimated casualties of both the sides individually. Srikar Kashyap (talk) 13:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• ok the link says According to unofficial figures, Also on furthur searching I have found saying 2100 Indian Casualty which also supported by -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:03, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
• The pakistani casualties reportedly varies between 3000 and 8000 as reported in Pakistani news papers, But they also write that these are Unofficial figures.-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:07, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• Both the governments do not release official data about casualties.However, I think unofficial estimates can be considered provided two or more sources give the same number. Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• two or more sources can be found for any casualty figure. We need to differentiate between opinions/blogs vs proper sources and give preference to a reliable figure which could then be added to infobox, this is an important figure which cannot be poorly sourced. -- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 14:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah..sorry for adding that blog link...I didn't notice it.So let it be unknown until we find more sources.Let SMS and TopGun also tell their opinions. Thanks Srikar Kashyap (talk) 14:31, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• First I am not bound to inform. Had you people discussed this whole issue in good faith, I would have informed you. --SMS 14:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

• So you decided to quietly sneak out to wp:RSN without informing, what a pity that it did not work out-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 10:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Smsarmad refrain from edit the page without consensus, you are the one who had started the discussion ] can't you just wait?--sarvajna (talk) 09:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No I cannot wait. I can withdraw from my stand whenever I want and I just did it. Now stop edit warring I just undid my own edit and removed the source that was called an unreliable source multiple times. Actually your revert makes me think that you just want to edit war, if I had called that source unreliable you people must be calling it reliable. So please carry on, I am off this place. --SMS 09:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Smsarmad under the section Severe conditions you had again added the 15,000 casualty figure in your previous edit --sarvajna (talk) 09:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the unreliable source now --sarvajna (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I undid it but it all messed up. Seems like you cleared the mess now. Thanks and Sorry! --SMS 09:53, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

• SMS from your "struck off" comment it seems you need to ponder what wp:RS is, a source does not magically become reliable or unreliable if you or me call it reliable or unreliable. It is by the virtue of the source. Also from your comment above its clear that you lack faith in other editors. in order to edit in such controversial cases consensus is a must. regards-- ÐℬigXЯaɣ 10:15, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

New additions by User Ahsanch12345

User Ahsanch12345, has made some contribution which are alear POV content. Ahsanch12345, you can discuss here before you make any additions. --sarvajna (talk) 09:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Result

I added a source which says "The army bitterly resented the loss of Siachen glacier in 1984 and since then had devoted considerable resources to devising a means of regaining the territory" Smsarmad accuse me of source falsification again and I will seek sanctions against you for your persistent personal attacks. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

It is an ongoing conflict and both sides' active forces are still deployed there, to say that one side won or lost based on a loss/gain of a territorial region is source falsification. --SMS 18:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

No it is not, refrain from your personal attacks. India took the glacier, hence it was a victory per the source. Just because Pakistan is still trying to get it back does not mean it is a stalemate, they are still trying to get Kashmir back as well, which funnily enough is another war they lost. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, where is your source to claim a stalemate? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Keeping the discussion on content, source you provided doesn't say that India won the *conflict* or vice versa for Pakistan. Besides here are the sources which say it is a stalemate:

• P R Chari (2007). Four Crises and a Peace Process: American Engagement in South Asia. Brookings Institution Press. pp. 21–22. ISBN 978-0815713838. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Robert G. Wirsing (1991). Pakistan's Security Under Zia. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 158. ISBN 978-0312060671.
• Edward W. Desmond. "War at the Top of the World". Foreign Correspondent: Fifty Years of Reporting South Asia. Viking Books. p. 157. ISBN 978-0670082049.
• Greg Child. Thin Air: Encounters in the Himalaya. Mountaineers Books. p. 162. ISBN 978-0898865882.
• Beckwith, Christian, ed. (2001). "Climbs and Expeditions: Pakistan". The American Alpine Journal. Mountaineers Books: 367. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Hans Binnendijk (1997). Strategic Assessment 1997: Flashpoints And Force Structure. Diane Publishing. p. 126. ISBN 978-0788146480. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Ashutosh Misra (2000). Siachen Glacier flashpoint: A study of Indian Pakistani relations. University of Durham. p. 19.

--SMS 21:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Your first source mentions the ongoing dispute as being in a stalemate, not the initial Indian seizure of the glacier. Same with the second. Third source says "Pakistan responded to late to push out the Indians and lost 1000 sq miles" And it's mention of stalemate is about the ongoing arguments. I am not going to bother looking at sources 3,4&5, as they are not RS. I am unable to view 6 but I have no doubt it says the ongoing political bitching is at a stalemate, much as the rest of your sources do. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The first source says: "... the two parties remain at a military and political stalemate." I can go on quoting others but it seems that you are only interested in pushing your POV, so I won't waste my time here. --SMS 08:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I know what it says, use your common sense. Any stalemate currently is due to the fact the Pakistan has failed in their attempts to dislodge the Indian military presence. The initial Indian operation lead to a victory, it is still a victory as they have held the ground. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

No source what so ever considers this a victory please stop misrepresenting sources Meanbuggin (talk) 21:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The conflict is ongoing, taking most of the Glacier has not ended the conflict, until the conflict has been formally ended by the 2 countries. You cannot declare the result based on your perspective and back it up using an Indian source which may also be subject to bias. --Thank You Nawabmalhi (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

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