Misplaced Pages

User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 23:42, 18 December 2014 view sourceWnt (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users36,218 edits →Copyright concerns with Wikibooks' suicide instruction manual← Previous edit Revision as of 23:52, 18 December 2014 view source Wnt (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users36,218 edits →Misplaced Pages needs to be ready for North KoreaNext edit →
Line 409: Line 409:


*Misplaced Pages resembles North Korea and its practices a lot, of course not in the same dimensions, but still. Wikipedians censor all criticism, and most are afraid to question authorities, and if somebody does, he's getting attacked like it happened .] (]) 22:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC) *Misplaced Pages resembles North Korea and its practices a lot, of course not in the same dimensions, but still. Wikipedians censor all criticism, and most are afraid to question authorities, and if somebody does, he's getting attacked like it happened .] (]) 22:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

::There are certain resemblances, because Misplaced Pages is a fundamentally communist enterprise. As such, like North Korea, we accumulate control over extensive public resources in the hands of a few who can become prone to ideological or baser sorts of corruption. And because it is online we are prone to a sort of cyberbullying - which combines spying, overwrought concerns about the details of what that spying uncovers, and fear to oppose those behind the bullying. That said, we have several major bulwarks to defend us: we don't own any concentration camps, we have already licensed the world to reuse and rework our content as they wish, and we have many people who know better than to kowtow to censorship. That is not to say that Misplaced Pages will not ''eventually'' be corrupted beyond repair, but the process is slow, and we have some control over how quickly it progresses, and we can be ready to replace it with something better that includes all its useful content when the end finally comes. If we grow old we all know how that feels. But if there are reasons to criticize Misplaced Pages, the fact that its founder has allowed us a way to have a wide-ranging and quite critical discussion of the people who gave him $500,000 which he has graciously donated charity... that's about the ''last'' spot I'd pick to start digging. ] (]) 23:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

== Misplaced Pages Edit 2014 == == Misplaced Pages Edit 2014 ==


Revision as of 23:52, 18 December 2014


    Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end.
    Start a new talk topic.
    Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates.
    He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees.
    The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm.
    The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.
    This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.
    Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day 
    This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.



    Archives
    Index –index–
    This manual archive index may be out of date.
    Future archives: 184 185 186

    This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.
    (Manual archive list)

    Congratulations

    Closing this discussion; if you want to discuss the award further, take it to some other page. Wifione
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Congratulations on receiving the Knowledge Award and a cash prize of $1 million! Everymorning talk to me 01:43, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

    Oh wow! Yes well done @Jimbo Wales:! Very well deserved :)--5 albert square (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    Congrats! =D - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    Nice Job! Hopefully it makes up for all the toxic users on your talk page ;) Winner 42 Talk to me! 02:38, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thank you all. It's pretty amazing. It's actually split with Sir Tim Berners-Lee so not $1 million to me but still it's impressive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Congrats on this. Taking the emotion of the moment, I thought I'll suggest that perhaps you could institute some kind of an award (non-monetary) or recognition for editors from your desk or the Foundation's. Would motivate them too, similar to how we feel good when you get the award. Barnstars are wonderful - and great recognition. But a formal series of recognitions from your/Foundation's side could put some additional verve into our editor lot (or perhaps such a thing already exists and I am not aware of it; or maybe it's not a practical idea, but just had it in my mind for some time, so thought I'll suggest). Congrats again. Wifione 14:54, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
    What a cordiality and friendly speech from someone who has been told "not to come back" (by Jimbo Wales himself), not long time ago! I admire your ability to forgive, User:Wifione. Btw, you don't work for Mr. Chaudhuri anymore? I mean, you don't manipulate those articles since it was exposed in your editor review and in other places ... --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 09:35, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

    Truly amazing to see you honored equally with the great TB-L. Congratulations. To which NGO(s) will you donate the loot? Coming as it does with the imprimatur of a repellant regime, infamous for human rights violations such as slave labor, repression of free speech, judicial discrimination against women, criminalization of rape victims and Muslim women who marry non-Muslims, and judicial penalties that include the execution of homosexuals, pot dealers, and apostates, will you be looking for organizations that combat these human rights abuses? Writegeist (talk) 07:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

    As an Emirati, and a student at the American University of Sharjah, I am disappointed that Mr Wales did not take the opportunity to speak out against the abuses that Writegeist writes about and which is documented here on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. Mr Wales, you had an opportunity to speak out for the people in my country who have experienced true freedom elsewhere (I studied in the United States) and who suffer under a regime that does not value true human rights. The regime splurges billions of dollars on promoting a false image of life in the Emirates to a western audience; you had an opportunity Mr Wales to speak out for all Emiratis, and also those non-nationals who are forced into slave labour and have no rights. I am at risk by posting this very message. This is not how it should be Mr Wales. Instead, it appears you were bought for $500,000. You sold us out Mr Wales. 194.170.173.249 (talk) 12:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
    IP249, thank you for your courageous post. As this talk page is heavily watchlisted and as, for the time being at least, the co-founder seems to be at a loss for words on this topic (though not on that of so-called "Cultural Marxism"), perhaps some of the watchers will chip in and name human rights organizations for the co-founder to consider as beneficiaries of a gesture of largesse that would be in keeping with his vociferous advocacy of "moral ambitiousness". Writegeist (talk) 19:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

    All awards are political. And the more money they carry, the more political they are. What did/will the sheikh want in return? Misplaced Pages just hit the new low. 83.208.89.162 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

    @Jimbo Wales: Had you been in your home town the day before you received your $500,000 payment in Dubai, you could have joined the Day of Anger protest outside the UAE embassy to add your voice to those raised against the UAE's egregious human rights violations.

    And only yesterday the Emirates Centre for Human Rights tweeted: "The silence of the international community despite the deteriorating conditions of PoC's in the UAE is shameful. Action must be taken."

    Do you think the UK office of the ECHR would be a good starting point for you?

    My suggestion FWIW is Human Rights Watch. Their online donations page invites tax-deductible gifts to help HRW "investigate and expose human rights abuses, hold human rights abusers accountable for their crimes, and pressure governments, policy-makers, and the international community to take action against abuse"—precisely, I'm sure, the activities you'd want to support with your UAE payment.

    For your—and your page watchers'—interest here is HRW's 2013 World Report on the UAE: . And here are their latest (2014) reports on specific UAE human rights abuses: , , , . I hope this helps. Or do you already have a particular beneficiary in mind? Writegeist (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

    I find this extremely worrying. (And now there's a comment, below, about a genealogy project, on which he " have a strong view"). I would agree about HRW, on whom this encyclopaedia relies extensively. zzz (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
    Indeed it is worrying.
    Today is Human Rights Day. What perfect (and ironic) timing. The co-founder has $500,000 burning a hole in his conscience because he took it from a regime that's notorious for human rights abuse. What better day than Human Rights Day for the co-founder to give the tainted loot to Human Rights Watch, thus actually doing something worthwhile with the money, in a meaningful gesture of protest about human rights abuses by the UAE and other vile regimes worldwide—a truly grand gesture that would show some real "moral ambitiousness" and earn some real respect. What say you, Jimbo Wales? Or are you silent because you're waiting for advice from the PR people? Writegeist (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
    Common guys, I'm sure Mr. Wales has accepted the award with one purpose and one purpose only: He's going to donate all of it, to the very last penny to the WMF to be used for spreading a free knowledge, which I'm sure would help to improve human rights around the world. You're going to donate the money to the WMF, aren't you, Mr. Wales? Think about it. If you're to donate the money, you would kill two birds with one stone: First, you stop the critics who're saying that you dishonored yourself by accepting the award from an oppressive regime, and second your donation would help the WMF to stop begging for donations a few days earlier.59.78.160.247 (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    I live in hope, but somehow, sadly I don't think that will happen. I hope I'm proved wrong though.--5 albert square (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I rarely speak on posts like these, but I am severely disappointed that Jimmy accepted this award without and an immediate, strong, public condemnation of the human rights practices of the UAE. One million is little to pay to gain the publicity generated by being able to attract famous figures for an awards ceremony. The United Arab Emirates have at least 250,000 people working in conditions that amount to slavery. Not slavery thrown around in a Godwin manner, actual slavery. Jimbo: return the award, make a public renunciation of the human rights practices of the UAE, and distribute the money to a worthy charity or other cause. If you keep the money, you are directly benefitting from modern day slavery and from the deaths of many, many people. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    @Kevin Gorman - out of interest, when were you last in the UAE? Pedro :  Chat  21:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    I tend not to go to places whose regimes I strongly disagree with. I don't particularly think you need to go to a country to be familiar with its underbelly - in fact, I rather suspect spending a week at a resort in Dubai would be less informative than the thousands of pages of reading I've done about governance in the Emirates, or the hundred or so pages of academic writing I've done about it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

    Every penny of the money will be used to combat human rights abuses worldwide with a specific focus on the Middle East and with a specific focus on freedom of speech / access to knowledge issues. Of course.

    The specifics of exactly what the best approach is to doing that are not clear to me yet - I had no advance warning of this prize and so did not have any kind of plan in place. While of course I love the Wikimedia Foundation and continue to donate a huge chunk of my time and energy supporting the work of the Foundation, it is not an organization specifically focussed on human rights issues nor specifically focussed on the Middle East, and so I think wouldn't have nearly the impact that I can have in other ways.

    The first thing that I did upon returning to London was hire a human rights lawyer full-time to work for me for the next month on these issues. That may turn into a longer term thing, or it may not. As I say, I'm only at the beginning of figuring out the optimal strategic approach.

    I have always been extremely outspoken on these issues and will continue to do so. I am thankful for some of the suggestions given in this thread (and less thankful for the nasty false assumptions and snide attitude from some). In particular, I plan to contact and meet with "the UK office of Emirates Centre for Human Rights," an organization that I had never heard of before just now. I'll be happy to get leads on other interesting organizations as well.

    Finally, I wanted to specifically call out Mr. Writegeist for obnoxiousness. "are you silent because you are waiting for advice from PR people?" That's a completely uninformed nasty remark that bears no resemblance to the facts, and indicates such a total lack of knowledge of me and my character that I think you should really regret making it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

    Mr. Writegeist posted his first comment 2 days ago, and you responded to a number of other comments between then and now. You do have a history of (seemingly) waiting for the archive bot rather than responding to uncomfortable questions.

    Next time, maybe just say something along the lines of "I hear you, I agree, but I need another day or two to think. Worth a try. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

    Thank you for your gracious and positive response, Jimbo. I imagine that it must be frustrating for you when various people insist that you jump through their hoops, lickety split. Anything that you can do with this money to advance the cause of free expression and human rights in the Middle East will be a good thing. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:56, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Thank you for responding, Jimbo. I can't particularly criticize accepting money from the Emirates and putting it to good use, given that most of my cardiologists work out of a clinic named after Sheikh Zayed. A million put towards fighting human rights abuses won't fix the world but can certainly do good. One possible use I may suggest for a small fraction of it: working on initiatives to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of human rights abuses. It's an area we're rather weak in given our systemic biases, and given Misplaced Pages's prominence in pretty much all search engines, better coverage could result in a significantly more informed public. (I don't mean hiring paid editors, but productive content generating initiatives focused on human rights issues could do a lot of good with 50 or 60k.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

    Any word on what Berners-Lee is doing with his half of the dough? Neutron (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

    @Jimbo Wales: "I have always been extremely outspoken on these issues." Please point me to instances of your extreme outspokenness on the issue at hand: human rights abuses by the UAE. Going by DuckDuckGo hits (not necessarily the best indicator), you have spoken about universal accessibility to knowledge as a human right, and also about the undesirability of "censoring links to legally published news articles and Misplaced Pages entries" because "history is a human right," etc. By contrast the history of your extreme outspokenness on human rights abuses by the regime that gave you $500,000 eludes DuckDuckGo. If you or one of your page watchers uses Google, I trust any relevant links will be added to this thread.
    In reply to the question in my previous comments you said it showed a lack of knowledge of your character. If you want I can give a thoughtful response with specific examples of your known behaviour (behaviour helps us know character). My personal preference is to sidestep the matter of your character and focus on the larger issue.
    Do you, in fact, unequivocally deplore and condemn the human rights abuses by the United Arab Emirates, from whose government you have accepted a payment of $500,000? Writegeist (talk) 03:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    You should go read WP:DICK. You are very unlikely to find specific cases of me speaking about the situation in Kyrgystan, Belarus, or any of a very large number of states who violate the right of freedom of speech and other human rights. I am not a one-man Amnesty International. I have always been outspoken on these issues and you should find it very easy to find out my position and to find specific examples of me speaking out against censorship in particular, which is the main issue that I find the world eager to hear my views on. (I could speak out against, for example, female genital mutilation - but no reporter has ever asked me about that issue and unless I had a specific reason to devote my life to it I don't think I could be very effective. And there are, of course, dozens of specific issues that I must leave to others.)
    Of course I unequivocally deplore and condemn human rights abuses in every place in the world, including the United Arab Emirates.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    Many people aren't so concerned that their highfalutin human rights are being violated when they face the more immediate risks of starvation, lack of clean drinking water, disease, sexual violence and/or war. Lots of things to worry about and where to begin? If you donated the $500,000 to support polio eradication or clean drinking water in the third world, I wouldn't fault you. Once basic needs are met, people have more opportunity to participate in civic life and demand their human rights. There's no need to aggravate the person who gave you the award by showing him up. Jehochman 22:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    There are definite problems in the Gulf states that can be addressed, such as issues surrounding exploitation of labor. If he doesn't want to give it to the Coretheapple Penguin Relief Fund or keep it, he can give it to an organization fighting labor abuses there involving South Asian workers, for instance. Plenty of good causes, if he is so inclined and wants to specifically deal with the Gulf. Coretheapple (talk) 22:49, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    Jimmy, did you do any research into the UK office of Emirates Centre for Human Rights yet? It's generally good to do some googling before setting up a meeting. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 11:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    I only heard about the organization's existence 48 hours ago. I have neither googled them nor contacted them. As you should know by now, I'm a very deliberate and thorough person and so I will be very careful to do my due diligence before working with anyone. As I have said, I now have someone on my personal staff working full-time on these issues and we will be investigating slowly and carefully - to have maximum effectiveness - who to work with and what to do. Up above Cullen wisely wrote: "I imagine that it must be frustrating for you when various people insist that you jump through their hoops, lickety split". Of course it is frustrating (though more disappointing than frustrating) but not so frustrating that it will cause me to change my ways and react in some silly knee jerk fashion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    FFS Jimmy, all you would have needed to do was to read the Misplaced Pages articles to know that accepting this award would be complicated, to say the least. As far as what I should know about you being careful, thorough, and doing due diligence... good gravy man, do you recall our interactions and correspondence in the past? It's all water under the bridge between you and me as far as I'm concerned, but it's your tendency to jump before looking that's getting you into trouble here, and the consequences in this case are a bit more important than whether or not Wikiversity overcomes a problem. Please, please just say no next time you're offered a reward like this. When someone in your position says "no!" loudly, firmly, and with an explanation why, it could actually make a difference. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    It does not seem the least bit complicated to me, and I've made exactly the right choice. Now there is going to be $500,000 fighting against human rights abuses that would have sat in their pockets. Excellent. I'm sure you want it to be difficult and scandalous but of course it isn't in the least.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Not the least bit complicated? Aside from slave labour and murderous oppression, this regime relies heavily on tourism, in other words on maintaining a certain respectable image. I honestly fail to see how it could be any more complicated. SBJ is correct: saying "no" could have actually made a difference. 500k means nothing: I am sure that they were absolutely delighted . zzz (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    OK, but let's be fair to the guy (I mean, he only founded the goddamn website we're using and all that). I've already gone through the mechanics of refusing and pointed out that if he had turned it down it would have been a silent gesture, which he could have turned into a noisy gesture by issuing a statement. But it seems to me that such a route would have had drawbacks too. Whereas taking the money and carefully using it for a proper purpose, such as specific NGOs dealing with labor abuses in the Gulf states, would do serious good. I disagree with you. Half a million is a lot of money for the kinds of programs that would benefit people persecuted in the Gulf states. Now if he uses it to buy a yacht, as I would do in such a situation, it's a different story entirely. Coretheapple (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I'd support a whip-round (in principle), to pay for a yacht for the founder of this website. But half a million would only buy a very small yacht. And, I have zero faith in the vast majority of NGOs. zzz (talk) 00:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    Congratulations to founder of the great free-acess website! --Ochilov (talk) 18:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    Yes indeed. If there are no strings attached to the award, I don't understand the problem. Yes he could have thrown the money back in their faces and issued a press release. But it's a million bucks. It can do some good. I am no fan of that regime but I would take that money in a minute if it was offered to me, and rest assured that I would bank it and not give it away. By the way, had he decided to refuse the money they would simply have given it to somebody else. Then, to make a fuss, he'd have had to issue a statement saying "they offered me the money and I refused it," which would have been attacked as grandstanding. So let's be fair, people. Coretheapple (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
    I think you need to understand that there are people who always attack what I do no matter what I do. SB Johnny is one of them. There's no possibility of winning so I just have to laugh off the nonsense and do the right thing regardless of the carping.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Well that's unfair... am I the enemy of the week or something? I defend you when it's fairly obvious to me that you're trying to do the right thing, though generally not on your talk page. I think you're trying to do the right thing here too, but apparently you're too far into defensive mode to catch my drift.

    Hiring an assistant or intern with a background in ethics and international politics would be a good way to spend some of the money, because when you get pulled in for a photo op like this you do damage that's hard to undo. I know you mean well, Jimmy, but you've been snookered twice now by authoritarian regimes. Since researching that sort of thing isn't your specialty, perhaps you'd be willing to hire some help on that front. The volunteers of Misplaced Pages would feel better, no doubt, and would be a big win for you, us, and the world at large. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

    Greetings to new user Ochilov, and how lovely that in the space of less than a week you and the co-founder have become friends (according to your user page).
    @Jimbo Wales: Having asked for evidence of extreme outspokenness on human rights abuse by a financial benefactor, namely the government of the United Arab Emirates, it's interesting and revealing to receive a response prefaced with "Go read WP:DICK". Particularly when it's from someone who wrote "...if an essay on 'Don't be a dick' is being used by people in a dickish way, something has gone wrong." If someone would care to write WP:ASSHOLE (yay! Gender neutral!) I'll bear it in mind as a suggestion for appropriate recipients in future.
    Be that as it may, you nevertheless confirm the findings I noted in my comments: your past public utterances on human rights have indeed addressed general principles of free speech and access to information, but not human rights abuses in the Middle East in general or the United Arab Emirates in particular. I commend the clear statement you have now made in unequivocal condemnation of the UAE's human rights record, and note that you will devote at least some of the money they gave you to the cause of combatting their violations and abuses. Your clarification comes as very welcome news, not least in light of past connection to the Kazakh dictatorship, described by Human Rights Watch as implementing "a growing crackdown" on free speech, which came under scrutiny by the media at the time.
    SB Johnny makes an excellent point about the ECHR. But even if you decide the questions raised by the Torygraph and others—about religio-political connections and ultimate objectives—render the organization ineligible for your financial support, the people there may be able to provide information that helps to educate you more deeply about the UAE's human rights abuses. Thank you for an interesting and productive discussion. Herewith bowing out of this thread :) Writegeist (talk) 00:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    "Past connection to the Kazakh dictatorship" - total and utter and complete bullshit. I have no past connection of any kind to the Kazakh dictatorship.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    What I'm going to announce right now is unknown to anybody except a few people who looked at my slides before I put them up. I'm announcing today an annual award – probably annual, if I remember next year – and, ah, the title of the award is 'Global Wikipedian of the Year'. Given by me personally and my opinion, and later of course like everything that started out 'me personally and my opinion' will find a process in the future to have this be community organised. And this year, the winner is Rauan of Kazakh Misplaced Pages. So Rauan, if you can come down. Maybe it's too hard to come down – maybe he'll just stay there! So – I've been following the story of Kazakh Misplaced Pages, er, since, er Ting went to Kazakhstan, and he came back and he reported on something amazing that was happening there. And I started to get in touch with them, and I also I've been getting in touch with the government there. I've been talking to the Prime Minister there. I'm going in December and I'm going to give the award in the presence of the Prime Minister to Rauan, pending scheduling. Prime ministers are always hard to nail down, but they've agreed to the meeting, er, and I think that if we think about the things that they're doing, think about the things that I've talked about, I think that if we really try hard on this, instead of having sad puppies and sad kittens, we'll have happy puppies and kittens.

    2011 Wikimani closing ceremony. John lilburne (talk) 13:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks for posting that, but I'm not sure what the point is. I have met with, and will in the future meet with, leaders and bureaucrats and politicians from many countries with terrible records on human rights, in order to encourage, educate, and pressure them to change. I trust that your transcription is correct and so I must correct one error in what I said. I have never spoken to the Prime Minister there, but I was in communication with the Prime Minister's office. (In the next little bit, I got it right when I say "they've agreed to the meeting" - meaning his office.) That meeting never happened because, ultimately, when I met with a representative of his in Davos, a discussion of the necessary conditions for the meeting would have made it impossible for them to agree. I was ultimately told that if I want to come and visit Ruaun (which I still plan to do) they would allow the visa, but would not allow for any press coverage, etc.
    People love to pull this bonkers Telegraph story up because of the wild insinuation that I in some way compromised my principles (perhaps by taking money? perhaps by Tony Blair doing things that I wouldn't, and... I know him... so... whatever) in the case of Kazakhstan. But the simple truth is that I have had no "connection" with the Kazakh dictatorship except one of lobbying them for change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Oh the point is, and perhaps I'm being a bit picky here, that "I have no past connection of any kind to the Kazakh dictatorship" is not quite the same as "I have never spoken to the Prime Minister there". John lilburne (talk) 07:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I don't think that's being picky. Those are two different statements. Both are true. The original poster was trying to insinuate that I have had some kind of improper dealings or connection to them, which is frankly ridiculous. I haven't ever and I never will. What I have done, and which I will continue to do, is seek to use my influence as best I can to encourage positive change. That's sometimes going to mean meeting with people to tell them what I think.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

    I always find it kind of weird that people think they have some sort of moral right to tell other people how to spend their money. NE Ent 10:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    Calling a documented fact "bullshit" doesn't fool anyone except the foolish. As to the issue you raise of impropriety in dealing/connecting with the Kazakh dictatorship—e.g. paying a Kazakh government worker to copy state-controlled "encyclopedic" information to Misplaced Pages—I note you take the position that such actions are not improper; that you take them as someone who seeks to use his influence to encourage positive change; and that you tell people what you think. By the way have you, as a self-declared free speech activist (vide Twitter) whose dealings and connection with the Kazakhstan government are entirely proper, made any specific public statements telling people what you think about Kazakhstan's dictatorial control of information, suppression of free speech, and violation of dissidents' human rights? Writegeist (talk) 19:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Credit where it's due. (Christian Science Monitor reporter Dan Murphy responded elsewhere with: "The following facts had been established before he wrote the above: That Wikibilim is funded largely by the Kazakh government's sovereign wealth fund, that it says "paid editing" is conducted at the Kazakh Misplaced Pages with this money, that at least 40,000 of the Kazakh Misplaced Pages's articles were lifted directly from the government's own Kazakh National Encyclopedia, and that the government's National Academy of Sciences has been conducting "content and quality review" of the Kazakh Misplaced Pages's contents. He also doesn't seem to understand the idea that involvement with such governments, even when made with the best of intentions, can be in turn used by those governments to polish their own images.") Have you made any similar statement about Kazakhstan outside of Misplaced Pages? Writegeist (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I know little about this, but one of these days you ought to go on the board of a nonprofit, a type of organization that by definition begs people for money, and see what happens when the Government of Crumbumistan offers you $1 million. I think you'll find that it's tempting to say the least. If you're worried about paid editing perhaps you should join me in urging Jimbo to end it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


    Message from M.al-A.UAE

    This was posted on my talk page, since I was the admin who semi-protected this one. I'm just passing it along; I skimmed it to make sure it wasn't obviously abusive, but beyond that I offer no opinion.

    Dear Mr. Wales,

    I am a graduate of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at United Arab Emirates University in Al Ain, and have a BA in Mass Communications (i.e. journalism). Your acceptance of the $500,000 in Dubai is the subject of discussion among Emiratis who are not in agreeance with the current state of affairs in the UAE as it relates to human rights and freedom of speech.

    The Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Knowledge Award which came with the $500,000 prize is named after Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, the "ruler" of Dubai and Vice President of the UAE. From the positions he holds in the UAE, he is partly responsible for the current state of human rights in my country. I see that posters above are bringing to your attention the abysmal human rights record in this country. They, and you, are likely well versed in the state of labor rights in the UAE. They have not, however, brought up the situation in the UAE on freedom of speech, and therefore the ability of those in the UAE to freely disseminate knowledge, and this goes to the core in showing how absurd the award is.

    Mr. Wales, please consider the following cases:

    1. In 2012, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation was forced to close its office in Abu Dhabi. Their mission is the promotion of “promotion of freedom and liberty, peace, and justice”. The National Democratic Institute for International Affairs also had its Dubai office closed by the authorities. No legitimate reason was given for the closure. See: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/06/world/meast/uae-organizations/
    2. In 2012, Assistant Professor of Communication Matt J. Duffy had his contract at Zayed University cancelled and he was deported from the country. Mr. Duffy helped to found a campus chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists and attempted to teach students journalistic ethics and standards. Mr. Duffy wrote about this at http://mattjduffy.com/2012/08/ive-been-kicked-out-of-the-united-arab-emirates/. Mr. Duffy also offers reasons for the termination of his employment and deportation at http://mattjduffy.com/2012/08/top-18-things-that-may-have-gotten-me-booted-from-the-uae/.
    3. In 2014, Yasin Kakande was fired from The National and deported from the country for writing the autobiographical book The Ambitious Struggle: An African Journalist's Journey of Hope and Identity in a Land of Migrants (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ambitious-Struggle-Journalists-Identity-Migrants/dp/189035743X/ref=la_B00GU54WOO_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418300730&sr=1-1). Mr. Wales, please take the time to read this book, which is banned in the UAE (http://www.migrant-rights.org/research/uae-censors-author-of-book-criticizing-migrant-race-issues/).

    There is another case you may not be familiar with. The UAE 94 is a group of 94 lawyers, judges, human rights activists and others, who have spoken out in favour of democracy in my country. The dissidents are members of Al Islah, a non-violent political group, and do have an affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. I do not agree with the politics of this group, I am myself an atheist (a capital offense in my country). However, I do agree with their non-violent stance, and I do believe in their rights to call for democracy in this country. This group has been subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and trials which have been deemed to be unfair by the international community (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/19106). On March 17, Osama Najjar was arrested (http://twitmail.com/email/533078805/901/533078805) because he spoke out on Twitter (https://twitter.com/O_Hussain_) about these abuses. One week prior to your visit to the UAE, Osama was imprisoned for 3 years and fined 500,000 dirhams for speaking out. (http://en.rsf.org/emirats-arabes-unis-online-activist-gets-three-years-02-12-2014,47327.html)

    There is no freedom in the UAE Mr. Wales.

    I appreciate greatly that you have committed yourself to ensuring that the $500,000 which was awarded to you in the name of Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum will go toward advancing human rights in the Arab world. I also appreciate that you have committed part of your cause to include open data access, but sincerely Mr. Wales, what good is pushing for open data in this region, when the region is not open in terms of freedom of the press and human rights. There are many groups which are fighting for basic human rights in the UAE and some of them, as noted above, do have some links to some unsavoury groups. My suggestion to you Mr. Wales is to make contact with Mr. Duffy and Mr. Kakande and ask for their advice and guidance.

    I do have one simple request for you Mr. Wales. When you donate the $500,000 please do so openly by putting out press releases on these donations. There is no stronger message that you can send to the regime in my country, and others in Arab world, than publicly declaring that you stand with the people who do not enjoy basic human rights. This will send a strong message to governments that they can not place a price on human rights and for the silence of the West.

    We, the people, of the United Arab Emirates, thank you Mr. Wales for your commitment to helping us gain basic human rights and we trust the organisations you will donate the $500,000 to will put the money to good use.

    Thank you for your time. M.al-A.UAE (talk) 04:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    —HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:15, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    Thanks. I don't think I said anything about open data in this context, and I completely agree with you that it is a much less pressing issue than freedom of speech. I can assure you that everything I do in this regard will be as public and noisy as I can make it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    "After criticism, Jimmy Wales pledges $500k prize to charity" (headline)

    "I can assure you that everything I do in this regard will be as public and noisy as I can make it." J. Wales, 14 December

    Bravo. Someone has already made a start on that for you:

    "Misplaced Pages cofounder Jimmy Wales has pledged that the half a million dollars he was awarded earlier this month by the United Arab Emirates will go to charity. The move comes on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves . . . " etc. Writegeist (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

    I've written to them to correct the core error in the story - the false claim that this was done in response to pressure from Wikipedians. I started the process from the moment I was told about the prize, including hiring someone full-time to work on the question of how to best accomplish my goals.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    The report's claim that your pledge came "on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves" is not a "core error" as you claim—it's a core fact. Proof is self-evident in the content of the Congratulations thread on this page.
    As an aide memoire: your receipt of the money was reported (I think) on December 7. On December 8 you commented here, "It's pretty amazing. It's actually shared with Sir Tim Berners-Lee so not $1 million to me but still it's impressive." Pressure for comment about donating the money began with my post on December 8. Pressure on you continued on December 9 when an Emirati commented on your failure to speak out against UAE human rights abuses and said it appeared the regime had bought you for $500,000. There was further pressure from myself and another user on the same date, and pressure continued on December 10. It was not until December 11 that you finally responded, and the response was your pledge. Do you have a different reading of the timeline? Writegeist (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    To arrive at your conclusion, you must rely on the silly assumption that nothing can occur without it being reported on this page. Deli nk (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Precisely. To be 100% clear: I started my consideration of what to do with the money from the moment I learned of it and before the prize was even announced I was already talking to the human rights lawyer about what the options would be. When I got back to London I hired her full-time. None of that had anything to do with any pressure from anyone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I find the inability of some to AGF of your actions and the things you say to be one of the most discouraging things about Misplaced Pages.--MONGO 17:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I have to agree with MONGO above.
    Also, as a bit of a plug for in-house matters, although technically it might well be very difficult to do, I wonder if maybe some of the money might be given to the foundation for the purposes of maybe paying for putting some valuable and useful PD sources, like local history journals and reference sources which over time fall into the PD, on the web or on commons or whatever. Considering that every year more sources become PD, and the era that is now gradually becoming PD is among the greatest periods of production of literature of all time, there is a lot of valuable and potentially useful information that could be made more broadly available. So, maybe, as an example, a donation to the Missouri History Museum to pay for putting images of PD works on Commons and/or the broader net might be one option. Or, maybe, a donation to the Columbus, Ohio, public library, which so far as I can tell has the broadest collection of local history journals in the US. Just an idea, anyway. John Carter (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I agree with Deli NL and MONGO above, and generally with John Carter. The digitization of PD material does seem like something WP could help pay for (btw -selfpromotion - see my unpaid work at Commons:Category:Postcard collections of the Presbyterian Historical Society)
    Nevertheless, the suggestions for where Jimbo might spend his money seem to be quite far from the MidEast issues that it seems he wants to address. I too like suggesting to other people where they might spend their money, but usually avoid it because it never seems to work! To get some help in that matter you might more effectively ask for contributions from the chapters (e.g. WikiDC or WikiNYC), and I guess there are other places to make suggestions directly with the foundation. Perhaps there should be a central place for requests for big projects, such as PD digitization. I've always wanted to suggest that WP help fund the recording of PD music, but refrained because it is such a big potential project, and frankly I haven't expected many people to agree with me (but who knows?). Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Fact: The cofounder made his pledge after criticism here. The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.
    Fact: The pledge came "on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves." The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.
    Fact: "Wales made his intentions for the prize money public after pressure from Wikipedians who expressed dismay that Wales, famous for his public exhortations against autocratic governments, appeared to have taken money from one that is notorious for its human rights abuses."  The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.
    Fact: "Following the , Wikipedians took to Wales's user page on the online encyclopedia to criticize him for seemingly failing to issue an "immediate, strong, public condemnation of human rights practices in the UAE." The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.
    Following Wales's email, an addendum to the article notes that he says he "privately planned to use the UAE money to further human rights causes before receiving any criticism from Wikipedians."
    The DD's comments section is now graced by Jonathan Hochman dismissing as "trolls" the Wikipedians whose criticisms and pressure drew the pledge from the cofounder in response. This is of course Misplaced Pages user Jehochman, an administrator here who dismisses human rights such as freedom of speech as "highfalutin", i.e. pretentious: "Many people aren't so concerned that their highfalutin human rights are being violated when they face the more immediate risks of starvation, lack of clean drinking water, disease, sexual violence and/or war." Writegeist (talk) 18:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Irrespective of what came before, your comments certainly resemble trolling now. —David Levy 19:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Just because one event followed another one does not mean the first caused the second. The headline makes an arguably technically correct statement about the sequence of events (assuming you interpret it to literally mean that the announcement of the pledge came after the criticism), but strongly implies that the second event was caused by the first, which is wildly misleading. 0x0077BE 19:17, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    You missed:
    Fact: Some people are so busy assuming that Jimbo is evil that they lose sight of the obvious, that accusing Jimbo of lying about having someone already identified and in post before the award was even announced is ridiculous, tendentious and unworthy, just like most of what is written about Jimbo by people who obsessively use the term co-founder. Guy (Help!) 19:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    @ Levy: No. The comments set the record straight. @ Guy: (1) Use of "cofounder" ditto. (2) " . . . accusing Jimbo of lying about having someone already identified and in post before the award was even announced . . . " is a sentence that does not make sense to me. Are you accusing me of accusing the cofounder of lying? Writegeist (talk) 19:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Well, I think we can safely take the Daily Dot off the reliable sources list. Seems like it's a mouthpiece for idiots. Congrats on the prize. And no, a single malcontent or two is not pressure. Personally, after that article, I'd use the money to buy the Daily Dot and then use the magazine to promote human rights and start by firing a few reporters. My new Daily Dot would start off with an article about Pakistan's latest tragedy involving education, not how UAE's awards for improving the world are wrong. --DHeyward (talk) 02:03, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Or as it's now called..the daily dump I am not going to be forgiven for that comment am i... Lor 02:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)\
    I just think it would be the most awesome press release to say "With this award, I have bought the "Daily Dot" with the intent to use it to highlight Human Rights abuses. In the next few months as we transition to Human Rights coverage, there may be personnel changes necessary to provide the most objective views and excellence in journalism that such an endeavor requires." Then see what a Daily Dump really really looks like. In fact, future employment could be measured by the Hersey stripe in the underpants of employees. "But I'm a bomb thrower, not a Human Rights reporter!?! I just know the catchphrases, I'm not actually a 'Reporter without Borders', I never leave the San Francisco city limits." Heck, if he didn't fire anybody and just required registration and activation in 'Reporters without Borders,' he'd achieve the same effect. No reporter complains about a UAE assignment. But Pakistan, not so much. It is an incredibly hypocritical article and giving that reporter the opportunity to cover Taliban human rights violations would speak volumes of the idiotic piece in the Daily Dot. --DHeyward (talk) 04:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    P.S. I know he won't acknowledge this POV, but I hope he gets a chuckle about possibly being able to send the Daily Dot reporter to cover Human Rights abuses from ISIL or Peshawar province in Pakistan. My guess is that the reporter and Wrongtard aren't excited about reporting those real human rights abuses. They'd rather criticize from a country that won't threaten your life over online posting. The real heroes are those people that they are afraid to interview because it's dangerous. No one covering the Pakistan massacre is criticising a progressive movement in UAE because it isn't yet London or San Francisco. Only the western Barcolounger journalists would see the UAE's recognition as negative. Cultural and generational changes are slow. This is like criticising the Bill of Rights because slavery existed. Dipshiats. --DHeyward (talk) 04:47, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Jimmy Wales got criticized for something Misplaced Pages related. Huh. It must be a Wednesday. Or Thursday or ... although it goes against my many mostly private wiki-principles -- nobody likes a suck-up -- in response to some of the above: Jimbo, Congratulations! It's your award, spend it on whatever you want. NE Ent 02:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    • I know Jimbo does't restrain comments here even by negative editors, but this section seems to be just turning into (or has already turned into long back) a personal, pointy I-got-you-down discussion that has all elements of trolling. It won't be surprising if there's an RfC on this by the same editor. I believe it is enough said on this topic already, and repetitive comments by just one editor are quite disruptive, if not anything else. Time to actually hat this discussion off. Wifione 02:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Crisis? What Crisis?

    The October 2014 editing numbers are now posted at the usual place. The all-important count of Very Active Editors (>100 edits in the month) at English-WP remains stable at 3006 — up by 100 from the September count and up by 30 from October a year ago. New articles per day remains healthy at 887. It's real easy to get all worked up from the constant chattering of "Crisis, Terror, Horror, Doom" particularly if we spend too much time on the drama pages (including this one) or the drama mailing lists or the drama off-wiki criticism site. In reality: calm down and carry on, the ship is not sinking. Carrite (talk) 18:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

    While I certainly agree that things are there is no crisis, I don't think we (we in the community, we at the foundation) should be complacent about mere stability. The goal has never been to increase editorship as a goal in and of itself - but it is important that we remember the values of welcoming newcomers, welcoming diversity, and being a warm and kind place - a haven from the kinds of toxic places too often found on the Internet. If we get all those things right, then not only will the editor numbers take care of themselves, but also the editor quality and diversity question will take care of itself.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
    Random editors will continue to contribute random content of interest to themselves (obviously much of it COI). Moving forward it's not gonna be warmness and welcome mats that get WP where it needs to go, it's gonna be recruitment of experts and making sure that serious content people have the tools they need to work on esoteric topics. Kudos to Jake Ocaasi and the library project for big steps forward in the latter regard. Carrite (talk) 05:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I don't think it's possible to recruit experts without warmness and welcome mats. If we want good contributors, we need make sure that when they are newbies they are supported and made to feel welcome. The myth of "good contributors are naturally cantankerous" is just false and it's a shame that some in the community think that it's worthwhile putting up with nasty people if they make good contributions - what they miss is how many good contributors we lose when the culture is not healthy, especially for newbies.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Dunno, I've bumped into more than a couple academics back in the day that qualified as "cantankerous." Certainly a significant number of content people are. We need to create a climate where they are left the hell alone to work. There are many, many places where this already exists — My "Rule No. 1" asserts "The more important the topic of a Misplaced Pages article, the higher the probability of conflict over content," and that implies that the more arcane the topic, the lower the probability of conflict over content. There are whole vast swaths of history and biography that can be tackled painlessly, whether or not the drama pages are going ballistic with this or that sensational mini-crisis of the day. Indeed, I would argue that drama and conflict at Misplaced Pages is an illusion, that outside of a limited number of hotbutton topics populated by warriors (GamerGate FTL) the reality of WP editing is more or less unremarkable, silent, and civil — with the real problem being the overuse of semi-automated warning templates dumped on newbies rather than personal messages and a confusing (not to say dysfunctional) photo rights system. I would argue that there really is no "crisis of Misplaced Pages" outside the creations of our own paranoid imagination, fueled by the inevitable reality that drama is fun and writing articles on arcane topics or policing vandalism or correcting grammar etc. can be boring. Carrite (talk) 15:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I've spent my entire professional life around academics, and they are no more "cantankerous" in aggregate than are tech-industry workers, retail workers, airline pilots, college students, or (for that matter) the unemployed. The biggest bar to recruiting serious academics is the Randy-from-Boise problem. When you see academics acting cantankerously on Misplaced Pages, chances are that they've just discovered that despite devoting their work lives to acquiring in-depth knowledge and understanding of a subject, they can be obstructed and even overruled by people who are actively ignorant of the subject and whose only qualification is access to the Internet. It only takes one or two such experiences for the average academic to conclude that his or her time is not well-spent here.

    It follows that the key to attracting serious people has nothing to do with civility or its lack, but rather with developing a process to ensure that sane, knowledgeable people can triumph over pathological obsessives and other Randys. Misplaced Pages has never had such a process, nor even considered developing one. The result is that we hemorrhage sane, knowledgeable editors while we attract and retain Randys. MastCell  18:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

    Cute speech, Jimbo, but your egalitarian ethos is hard to believe when your site is highlighting "Fuck" as the main page greeting during the Christmas season. Of course, we all know Wikimedia only cares to a certain extent about "welcoming newcomers, welcoming diversity, and being a warm and kind place." Good luck with that fundraiser, champ. Townlake (talk) 05:51, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Well, I had no idea what you were referencing but now I see it. I'm rolling my eyes about it. I agree with you that it's a ridiculous thing to have on the front page of the site, and that it's a good example of tone deafness in some parts of the community. I must say, though, that I really very much doubt it will have any impact on the fundraiser, nor that it will get any press attention. It's a juvenile thing to have there but it isn't actually all that exciting - it's a notable book about freedom of speech.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks for your reply. We are closer to agreement on this than I would have guessed. (Though we disagree about how occasional nonsense like this impacts Wikimedia's ability to grow.) Townlake (talk) 06:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Not trying to end this discussion, just compacting it as it went a bit in circles. Someone notified me of the nomination a while back - probably here on my talk page if anyone is interested enough to look it up. So I read about it then and then I went to read the well-advertised discussion and scanned it. I'm not persuaded by any of the arguments, and I find the result to be ridiculous. In particular, every argument which cited WP:NOTCENSORED is totally beside the point.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    Jimbo:Perhaps you overlooked the well-advertised discussion, but some of us – with a diverse range of views – invested a great deal of time therein. In the end, even participants whose preferences weren't met praised Bencherlite (our outgoing TFA coordinator, whose contributions in this area have been vitally important) for gauging consensus thoroughly and thoughtfully.
    Did you consider expressing respectful disagreement with the decision instead of "rolling eyes about it" and deeming it "ridiculous" and "juvenile" (and, at Talk:Main Page, repeatedly condemning the lack of "sensible, mature, and thoughtful editorial judgment")? Do you understand why this might dishearten the "tone-deaf" editors whose good-faith contributions you've nonchalantly belittled, sight unseen? —David Levy 10:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    If one cannot stand that other people may call that action "juvenile" "ridiculous" etc., than they deserve to be disheartened. Indeed, during the discussion you tout, some did call it that or pretty close - so fair warning. I call it, poor editorial judgement and the TFA coordinator is apparently as prone to it as the others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    That's not a fair criticism of the coordinator -- his responsibility was to judge the consensus of those who participated in the discussion, not supervote it. NE Ent 12:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    The coordinator found weak or no consensus - they had to judge, so it's a fair criticism. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    My above response has nothing to do with my ability to "stand" such remarks. It stems from the hope that Jimbo would want to engage in informed criticism of the community's actions. In this instance, he assigned the aforementioned labels minutes after seeing the TFA blurb, without familiarizing himself with its background (let alone considering the arguments presented). He didn't merely disagree with the decision; he blindly dismissed the good-faith input of those behind it. —David Levy 13:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    He found your editorial judgment to be wanting - it does not take much time to do that. As for "good faith" - he found your good faith editorial judgement to be wanting - even juvenile and ridiculous. Indeed, in the discussion it was argued to be an abandonment of editorial judgement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, you were among those who argued that. And had Jimbo blindly deemed your input (and that of the other editors opposing the article's TFA appearance) "ridiculous" and "juvenile", I'd have found that equally troubling. —David Levy 14:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Your definition of blind is also wanting - he saw with his own eyes the result of your editorial judgment. Moreover, if Jimbo finds anything I do juvenile and ridiculous, he can tell me that - and I will readily disagree on substance, as warranted - or I will agree on substance, as warranted. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I don't assert that Jimbo reacted to the result blindly. I'm addressing his comments regarding the underlying collaboration within the community.
    When I encounter good-faith Misplaced Pages content that I regard as problematic, I don't assume that its inclusion stems from immaturity. I don't draw any such conclusions without reading the relevant discussion (should one exist) and considering the views expressed therein – which might even lead me to reconsider my position.
    As I noted below, I don't know whether Jimbo would find any of the supporters' arguments persuasive. I do know that he dismissed them, sight unseen. —David Levy 15:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    What you do is irrelevant - Jimbo saw what he considered a juvenile and ridiculous editorial action and said so. He did not dismiss anything. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    When someone describes my position as "tone deafness" without even reading my comments on the matter, I regard this as dismissive. The same goes for your position and that of any other editor in good standing. Of course, it's your prerogative to disagree. —David Levy 17:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    His comment was on the result, as tone deaf - you may regard that as dismissive but so what, you're just being dismissive. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    He referred to "tone deafness in some parts of the community".
    I'm sorry if I seem dismissive. On the contrary, I'm commenting here because I value Jimbo's opinions a great deal. As I noted, I'm sure that he didn't intend to be dismissive.
    And in case it wasn't clear, I respect Jimbo's concerns on the matter at hand. I respect your concerns too. And I don't regard this as a black-and-white issue in which one outcome was "good" and the other was "bad". Having weighed issues of principle and pragmatism, my support was not without reservation. Whether the decision reached was for better or worse, I believe that it was entered into with maturity (across the spectrum of views expressed). —David Levy 18:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    So, then it should not be a problem for you. Your editorial recommendation is seen as "bad" by others, for Jimbo it's because the result appears juvenile, ridiculous and tone deaf. Tone and appropriateness is something that encyclopedists regularly judge content by. For the main page, Jimbo and others see this as poor. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Indeed, I respect that opinion. In fact, I agree with it to a certain extent. I supported the article's proposed TFA appearance due to other considerations, not because I regard this one as invalid. I acknowledge, without hesitation, that my preferred outcome is far from perfect.
    So yes, I have no problem with Jimbo disapproving of the decision that was made. I wouldn't even mind if he were to single out my involvement in particular. (I welcome disagreement and constructive criticism.) I just want him to read the discussion before drawing inferences regarding the editors and their motivations. (But I don't mean that he's obligated to do so or that there's it's inappropriate for him to object to the outcome otherwise.) —David Levy 23:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Someone asks Jimbo his opinion on his talk page and you object to an honest answer? I'd argue that plain, honest, direct speech is more respectful in adult conversation than some psuedo wiki political correctness. NE Ent 12:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I don't object to Jimbo's candor. I object to his rush to judgement regarding a matter on which he's uninformed. He disparaged good-faith input without reading it, thereby conveying that it isn't even worthy of consideration. (In fairness, I'm sure that he didn't perceive his comments in that light.)
    I don't know whether Jimbo would find any of the supporters' arguments persuasive. I merely expect him to approach such matters with an open mind. —David Levy 13:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    While the appearance on the front page is recent, the possibility of it hasn't been (the debate seems to have been kicking around, in various places, for a while now). I don't think its entirely fair to suggest a 'rush to judgement', 'uniformed' or lacking 'an open mind'. AnonNep (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Jimbo stated that he "had no idea what referencing" (in a message posted approximately sixteen minutes earlier) until viewing the main page. —David Levy 15:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Yes. 'No idea' that the particular article was currently on the front page. But the discussions about the possibility of placing it there aren't new. AnonNep (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Jimbo's unawareness that the article was scheduled for today seems to indicate that he hadn't read the discussion culminating in that decision. If I'm mistaken on this point (and Jimbo did read the discussion before posting the above reply), I apologize for misunderstanding the situation. —David Levy 16:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Yes. And not having read the most recent of a number of discussions doesn't mean he's made a 'rush to judgement', is 'uniformed' or is lacking 'an open mind'. AnonNep (talk) 17:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    In what previous discussions did the community address the possibility of placing the article on the main page? —David Levy 17:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    If you and Doctor Google can't find them, then be careful, just in case someone suggests you've made a 'rush to judgement', are 'uniformed' and lacking 'an open mind'. ;) AnonNep (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    The article was promoted to FA in March and nominated for TFA in October. I see no evidence of earlier discussions on the matter (and none were mentioned during the course of the October/November request). If I'm missing something, please bring it to my attention. —David Levy 18:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Well, if you've comprehensively searched from one end of Misplaced Pages to the other (including the page archives) then this is clearly shiny and brand new... AnonNep (talk) 18:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    You appeared to express knowledge of multiple discussions about the possibility of placing the article on the main page, so I requested pointers thereto. Once again, I apologize if I misunderstood.
    The article became TFA-eligible in March. Nominations involving subjects regarded as controversial are heavily advertised as a matter of course (with notifications posted at Template:Centralized discussion, Talk:Main Page, Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates, Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous), Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard, and Jimbo's talk page in this instance), so they aren't easy for those page's watchers to miss. There's no record of an earlier request, nor have I seen one mentioned elsewhere (including the October/November discussion, wherein the situation's background was covered in depth and the nominator's exposition was criticised as excessive). Nonetheless, I did examine the article's links from the Misplaced Pages and Misplaced Pages talk namespaces.
    If I'm overlooking something, I apologize for that as well. I assure you that it's not for lack of effort. —David Levy 19:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Yes. It's been eligible for a long time, and advertised for a long time (wiki talk search on talk and, browsing those results the word 'nominated for front page' will lead to discussions (you may need to search related archives). To suggest someone made a 'rush to judgement', is 'uniformed' or is lacking 'an open mind' because they hadn't looked at the main page in 16 minutes is verging into WP:NPA territory.AnonNep (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    If my replies are coming across as rude or hostile, please note that this is unintentional.
    In the search results, I see numerous talk pages on which the nominator posted notifications of the October/November request. If you're seeing earlier discussions about placing the article on the main page, I would sincerely appreciate direct links thereto.
    I don't know what you mean by "because they hadn't looked at the main page in 16 minutes". At no point have I criticised Jimbo for lacking knowledge of today's featured article before it was brought to his attention. He did look at the main page within sixteen minutes, and then he commented on the matter. My concern is that he did so before he had an opportunity to read the relevant discussion and consider the views of those who supported the article's proposed TFA appearance (as well as those who opposed it, of course).
    I've also stressed my respect for Jimbo and confidence that he had no ill intent, so I don't know why you perceive my comments as "verging into WP:NPA territory". —David Levy 20:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    You can't prove an absence. That this article was trying for the front page, that the attempt has been going on for quite a while now, as per various talk links, isn't news. That someone didn't post or respond doesn't mean they were ignorant of that attempt or the arguments surrounding it. Anyone could have considered the issue long before the article appeared on the main page. Therefore, suggesting anyone made a 'rush to judgement', is 'uniformed' or is lacking 'an open mind', as you did, purely because they hadn't looked at the main page in the 16 minutes before commenting negatively on the content, is verging into WP:NPA territory. Other than that I'd suggest, if you really have no-one to beat, then WP:DROPTHESTICK. AnonNep (talk) 21:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    You can't prove an absence.
    I'm glad to see this acknowledgement, as I was under the impression that you were asking me to.
    That this article was trying for the front page, that the attempt has been going on for quite a while now, as per various talk links, isn't news.
    I've done my best to locate the previous discussions to which you've referred. I continue to welcome links thereto, for which I sincerely thank you in advance.
    That someone didn't post or respond doesn't mean they were ignorant of that attempt or the arguments surrounding it. Anyone could have considered the issue long before the article appeared on the main page.
    Agreed. I'm simply taking Jimbo at his word that he was unaware of today's scheduling beforehand.
    Therefore, suggesting anyone made a 'rush to judgement', is 'uniformed' or is lacking 'an open mind', as you did, purely because they hadn't looked at the main page in the 16 minutes before commenting negatively on the content, is verging into WP:NPA territory.
    Again, I don't know what you mean by "hadn't looked at the main page". Nothing that I've written has anything to do with Jimbo neglecting to view the main page (something that didn't occur).
    I'll also mote that I didn't accuse Jimbo of "lacking an open mind". It's just the opposite, in fact. I stated that I "expect him to approach such matters with an open mind". This expectation stems from his demonstration – time and again – of open-mindedness. In this instance, his reaction surprised me, in part because I've observed his open-mindedness for years.
    As I've indicated repeatedly, I'm quite certain that Jimbo's response reflected no ill intent whatsoever. I think that he was a bit hasty, which comes with the territory of being human.
    Other than that I'd suggest, if you really have no-one to beat, then WP:DROPTHESTICK.
    It's unusual for someone actively engaged in an argument to point the individual with whom he/she is arguing to that page.
    Indeed, I "have no one to beat", but certain comments (such as assertions that I'm verging on a personal attack against Jimbo) warrant replies. —David Levy 23:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Used in this context, WP:DROPTHESTICK, relates to your '16 minute' argument. If you want to go after me, personally, for raising it, then that's your choice. AnonNep (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    I don't want to go after anyone. On this point, my replies are purely to convey that I'm not engaging in whatever borderline attack on Jimbo you you took my initial statement to mean. That message, wherein I noted that Jimbo replied to Townlake's message approximately sixteen minutes after it was posted, wasn't even a criticism. You seem to be under the impression that I'm complaining about Jimbo's failure to do something (view the main page?) during that sixteen-minute period. I assure you that I'm not. —David Levy 00:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    *coughs*
    • Did you consider expressing respectful disagreement with the decision instead of "rolling eyes about it" and deeming it "ridiculous" and "juvenile" (and, at Talk:Main Page, repeatedly condemning the lack of "sensible, mature, and thoughtful editorial judgment")? Do you understand why this might dishearten the "tone-deaf" editors whose good-faith contributions you've nonchalantly belittled, sight unseen? —David Levy 10:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Jimbo stated that he "had no idea what referencing" (in a message posted approximately sixteen minutes earlier) until viewing the main page. —David Levy 15:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I'll just leave these here... see ya AnonNep (talk) 00:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    In the first of the two messages that you quoted, I expressed my disappointment that Jimbo made those comments regarding a decision whose background was unfamiliar to him. Many editors, with a diverse range of views, participated in a discussion with the goal of acting in Misplaced Pages's best interests. Whether we succeeded or failed, I don't believe that we deserved to have our involvement cited as lacking in "sensible, mature, and thoughtful editorial judgment" by someone who hadn't read our input. This was a criticism on my part. Not an attack.
    In the second of the two messages that you quoted (which seems to be the primary source of confusion), I was addressing your suggestion that Jimbo may have possessed advance knowledge of the matter at hand. As far as I can tell, you're interpreting my reply as a criticism that Jimbo was unaware of the scheduling, despite being informed sixteen minutes earlier (or something to that effect). That, as you've rightly noted, would be an utterly absurd complaint. In fact, it wouldn't even make sense, as we know only that Jimbo viewed the main page at some point during those sixteen minutes (which refers to the span between the two posts).
    My point, which I'll again attempt to clarify, was that Jimbo learned about the TFA scheduling via a message posted approximately sixteen minutes before he commented on it. (The time at which he read Townlake's message and viewed the main page is unknown to us, except that it fell within those sixteen minutes.) This was not a criticism. I'm not faulting Jimbo for being unaware of the scheduling beforehand or for taking sixteen minutes (a very short time!) to respond. I was simply addressing your comment by noting that the message through which Jimbo was apprised of the situation was posted approximately sixteen minutes before he replied, which established that he lacked an opportunity to read the relevant discussion in the interim. (Had Townlake's message been posted hours or days earlier, this would not be so.)
    I meant the following: "Jimbo stated that he 'had no idea what referencing' until viewing the main page in response to the message posted by Townlake approximately sixteen minutes earlier." If you've interpreted my reply as "Jimbo inexplicably and outrageously claimed to somehow not know about it, despite Townlake mentioning it on his talk page sixteen minutes earlier" or "Townlake mentioned it on Jimbo's talk page, and then Jimbo lazily sat around for sixteen minutes before bothering to investigate" – or anything of the sort – you've misunderstood. —David Levy 09:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    In an attempt to determine the nature of the misunderstanding, I was just reading over the exchange again. And I think that it finally hit me (like a rock).
    I wrote the following: "Jimbo stated that he 'had no idea what referencing' (in a message posted approximately sixteen minutes earlier) until viewing the main page."
    It's suddenly dawned on me that you may have taken "in a message posted approximately sixteen minutes earlier" as a reference to an action by Jimbo. I was referring to a message posted by Townlake. The parenthetical wording was connected to the "what Townlake was referencing" portion of the sentence, not the "Jimbo stated" portion.
    Townlake mentioned the issue in a message posted at 5:51 (UTC). Jimbo replied at 6:07 (UTC) – approximately sixteen minutes later – and noted that he "had no idea what referencing but now it".
    I was not referring to a scenario in which Jimbo stated that he had no idea what Townlake was referencing, viewed the main page sixteen minutes later, and only then gained an understanding of Townlake's comment. That simply didn't occur (and even if it had, it wouldn't be grounds for criticism).
    I sincerely apologize for failing to recognize the ambiguity until now. I genuinely have been trying to understand what was going on, and I was baffled until moments ago. —David Levy 10:45, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks for responding, Jimbo. Indeed, a link to the discussion was posted here contemporaneously (as I noted in the collapsed thread).
    The question of whether WP:NOTCENSORED is relevant to such situations is not a new one. For better or worse, consensus to date has not aligned with your view on the matter.
    Another argument is that the concept of omitting material from the main page on the basis that it offends some people (while including all sorts of material that's equally or more objectionable within certain cultures, simply because we regard them as "minorities" of our readership) is inconsistent with our fundamental pursuit of neutrality.
    However, I'm not here to persuade you of this. I ask only that you consider whether an outcome with which you strongly disagree reflects the absence of maturity and thoughtfulness among the discussion's participants. In my view, no matter how misguided some of us might be, we (by which I mean the request's supporters and opponents alike) dedicated a great deal of thought, with Misplaced Pages's best interests in mind. Even if this was the worst decision in the site's history, it doesn't stem from frivolity or haste. —David Levy 15:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

    Why is active editors "All Important"? Total edits are going down; and this chart shows "the rest of Misplaced Pages" -- folks not in the top 10,0000 -- has contributed the large majority of edits (67%)? NE Ent 11:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

    I don't want to speak for Carrite who used those words, but in the recent past the departure of some of Misplaced Pages's top editors was seen as a sure sign of significant problems within the community - a sign of dysfuction, admin abuse, growing bureaucracy, etc. Deli nk (talk) 15:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Random content comes in, such content will always come in. There is an underlying volunteer community that filters and curates these contributions: weeding out the significant number of vandalistic or utterly unhelpful edits or utterly unsuitable topics which end up being speedied or prodded or among the 100 or so articles running through AfD every day (don't think for a second that 67% of edits means 67% of content). Articles need to be tagged, style at least minimally standardized, wikilinks developed, and so on and so forth. With 887 new articles a day, there is no worry whatsoever than the intake valve is clogged — it is not. The issue and question is whether the underlying volunteer community is atrophying, opening up the gates for vandalism and content abuse. That's a raw count of core people, with the Very Active Editor count being the best metric available. This is a count that has been made since day one, and is thus an easily trackable series. It is our pulse. Carrite (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    The metric we really should be looking at is the "crapflood influx"/experienced editor ratio. And my gut tells me that number isn't getting any better. Gigs (talk) 17:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    I agree. Sometimes when I'm in need of a distraction I sign on to STiki and do some vandal fighting. What I find is that even when there is no vandalism there is simply rubbish by the ton. Coretheapple (talk) 18:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    This goes to the point that the total number of edits or the number of people bringing in random material really isn't what we need to worry about: it is the count of Wikipedian cadres. There's a huge difference between the people that understand and regularly contribute to the project and the here today-gone tomorrow folks that chip in a short article about something that directly concerns them. Obviously the "random contributors" include among them the Wikipedians of tomorrow and are not to be scorned — but that count is not indicative of much with respect to En-WP's general health. WMF has no clue even who the core volunteers are and I don't think they really want to know for legal reasons. Still, it would be nice if the Very Active Editor count each month were accompanied by a list of names of those accounts who met the 100 edit criteria. Then it would be relatively easy for the community to database itself to get a better handle on demographics, editor needs, and dispersion of core volunteers across various tasks. It would be nice if JW could help make that happen... Carrite (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Tags are abominations that turn sucky articles in a sucky articles with tags. Paraphrasing Yoda, Edit, or edit not, there is no "tag." Here's some unsourced articles tagged eight years ago -- if Misplaced Pages is so healthy, why is that? Secondly, I hear these claims about core groups of Misplaced Pages editors all the time with no analysis or evidence to back them up, as opposed to Aaron Schwartz's seminal Who writes Misplaced Pages?. Show me something other than assertion and opinion. NE Ent 03:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    You're preaching to the choir on tags. There's not much concrete evidence about anything on Misplaced Pages because WMF has been criminally apathetic with their surveying and analysis of the volunteer base. All we have are very rough metrics and impressionistic observation. Like I say — note well, Jimmy — if WMF starts kicking out lists of names of very active editors every month, databasing and analysis becomes possible and it won't even cost WMF any precious pennies for programmers... Carrite (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    The list would be no more invasive and could look something like THIS — except a monthly list of the "Top 5000 Wikipedians by total edits." Who knows, it might have the unintended effect of spurring more editing activity so that people could "make the list." It is very difficult to database and analyze the core community without regular monthly lists of this sort. WMF has the capability... Carrite (talk) 15:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    And while we're setting this up, if the monthly list included a field for "Percentage of Edits to Article Space" (which should be simple to generate), it would be even more helpful for databasing the core community. Carrite (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    Re your point above on active contributors: one thing we need to consider is that today's passer-bye is tomorrow's active contributor. The person contributing crap to his high school page, or even the casual vandal, might get serious about Misplaced Pages in months or years to come. People stop by and then lose interest. Developing a headstrong bureaucracy and the other stuff mentioned in the Slate piece can tend to drive newcomers away. Coretheapple (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    I absolutely agree with the following observation percolating from the Gender Gap Task Force: that crash editing events do not create lasting WP volunteers. I also observe firsthand that college class editing assignments do not create lasting WP volunteers. It logically follows that the people who DO become lasting volunteers self-join and self-identify — they are a certain minor percentage of the "random contributors" mentioned above. Therefore, the whole daily classes of newcomers are themselves in need of analysis and development — the wheat has to be found amongst the chaff, if you will. This is an entirely different task than identifying the active volunteer cadres of today. Actually, once we know the general characteristics that make for a lasting WP contributor (by identifying and surveying), it should help us to spot the promising new contributors pushing their first efforts through the article intake valve... Everything revolves around a need to database regulars and to seriously and scientifically analyze newcomers. Carrite (talk) 03:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I take it you would be supportive of the Foundation investing in that kind of analysis (both in terms of tools for the community to use but also professional help to design and execute the research needed)?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Definitely. A significant part of WMF's 2014-2015 plan (see page 20) is editor growth. I'm convinced that Misplaced Pages is now so large, {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} 120,097, {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} 6,929,361, it's beyond simple individual human observation to really grasp the big picture. Professional data mining would benefit both WMF's prioritization of resource and the English Misplaced Pages volunteers discussion of how to improve the project. A key but difficult part of that data analysis would be identifying how and where knowledge insertion occurs, as opposed to important but ancillary efforts that improve readability. There's insufficient information in our standard metrics (e.g. edit counts, number of bytes changed) to ascertain the answer to that question. NE Ent 10:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    I've been calling for analysis and surveying of the core volunteer community for a long, long time. I recently heard from a former WMF employee that their sense was that WMF had no plans whatsoever to get serious about such things. So: let's just NOT throw money at it, let's NOT wait for SF, let's take this on as volunteers... I'm not sure what happened to Wikid77, I haven't seen him around much lately, but this is right down main street for something he could help do. i'm totally into this project myself. Recently on the Gendergap-l list Fae showed me something cranking out a percentage of female v. male voters in the recently completed (and finally counted) Arbcom election. I'm positive that if not he, at least someone or several someones from GGTF can be persuaded into joining the task of compilation and analysis of core volunteers. It all starts with a very simple dump that needs to happen every single month without fall: a list of the Top 5,000 (better: Top 10,000) Wikipedians by total edits for each month — with a count of total edits in the month and preferably with a simple percentage of their edits to mainspace as an additional field. Once these lists exist, they can be compiled and the nature of their changes seen over time. A whole new set of metrics will emerge and we will know WHOM to survey further. So, no, I'm not for WMF spending a ton of money on new paid staff to do this analysis at this point — just get one person to crank out the simple list and make it part of their job every month. It should be very simple, very fast, and thus virtually cost-free to WMF, with big benefits to follow. Carrite (talk) 14:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    In the off chance that something actually comes of this, message to the WMF person constructing the first list: it is very important to include not only registered editors but IP editors in the list of contributors. The model for this, once again, is Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits. If the dump were alphabetically sortable for each field it would be enormously helpful. Here's how I would build the DB for each month.
    FIELD ONE: USER NAME OR IP |||| FIELD TWO: DATE ACCOUNT FIRST REGISTERED AT WP ||| FIELD THREE: SYSOP, YES OR NO? ||| FIELD FOUR: TOTAL EDITS LAST MONTH ||| FIELD FIVE: PERCENTAGE EDITS TO MAINSPACE LAST MONTH ||| FIELD SIX: TOTAL EDITS IN PREVIOUS 12 MONTHS ||| FIELD SEVEN: TOTAL EDITS FOR CAREER Carrite (talk) 14:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Here is the rationale for the above (1) To answer the question of percentage of core editors who are non-registered, need to include IPs. (2) First registration date will allow identification of newcomers. (3) Sysop ID will allow identification of potential future administrators. (4) Total edits in month is metric to determine who constitutes the core editing group for a given month. (5) Percentage of edits to mainspace will allow identification of writers and copyeditors, who may well have different needs than technical workers, etc. (6) Total edits in last year will provide an addition means of finding new or newly active core volunteers. (7) Career edits combined with registration date will signal durability. Carrite (talk) 17:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I am totally serious about this, by the way. Carrite (talk) 17:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Can you ask Larry Page or Sergey Brin to send us a list of words found in Google Books by frequency?

    Dear Jimbo: I have been trying for several years to get the Google Books people to fulfill a request that would contain a very large amount of data, but would be fairly simple to carry out from a programming standpoint. I want a list of all words in all languages found in Google Books. This would be very useful for Wiktionary, where we are trying to build a dictionary with just such a parameter. Our criteria for inclusion (for English Wiktionary, at least) requires that a word be used in at least three unrelated publications over the course of more than a year to merit inclusion. We frequently turn to Google Books to see if publications exist to support inclusion of challenged words, but it is unwieldy to use it to determine what words we should have, but are missing. I have contacted Google Books people very nicely a few times to see if they could provide such a list, and was told it could not be done. I think that it can be done, if the request is made high enough up the chain, so I'm asking you to go all the way up it. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

    If you actually communicate with the Google honchos, please let them know that legions of Misplaced Pages editors truly miss the robust Google News Archive function that they disabled a couple of years ago. It was supposed to be replaced with "something better" but that hasn't happened. Cullen Let's discuss it 23:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
    Cullen328 (and others): Although I don't know where Google publicly links to it, seems to work pretty closely to the old Google News Archive when it was available, as far as I remember. I, JethroBT 08:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I'm not sure if I have understood exactly what you want but couldn't you use the downloadable 1-gram files (available for the different language corpora)?
    To quote http://storage.googleapis.com/books/ngrams/books/datasetsv2.html :
    "File format: Each of the files below is compressed tab-separated data. In Version 2 each line has the following format:
    ngram TAB year TAB match_count TAB volume_count NEWLINE
    As an example, here are the 3,000,000th and 3,000,001st lines from the a file of the English 1-grams (googlebooks-eng-all-1gram-20120701-a.gz):
    circumvallate 1978 335 91
    circumvallate 1979 261 91
    The first line tells us that in 1978, the word "circumvallate" (which means "surround with a rampart or other fortification", in case you were wondering) occurred 335 times overall, in 91 distinct books of our sample."
    --Boson (talk) 00:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Frankly, I'm not sure I understand what this Google 1gram collection is, or how to read it. I downloaded a few of the files, and they seem to reflect snippets of content, but I can't discern a pattern. I'll ask my fellow Wiktionary editors if these are useful, but I am looking for something much simpler - a list of all words, and an indication of how many books each can be found in. bd2412 T 02:02, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    N-gram Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 23:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    Well, I'm not sure if Larry and Sergey are the right contact points, and anyway I know Eric better. The main thing is that I could make inquiries on a variety of topics all at once, mainly asking who exactly we should be talking to on various things. And to not be too disorganized and willy-nilly, I'd want to talk to the WMF to make sure I'm not bumbling around like a bull in a china shop. But in principle, yes, I'm happy to carry messages from the community to Google.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Such data would have to be treated with care because there will be lots of nonce and nonsense words, misprints and faulty scans in the entire corpus. For example, I try making up some words and soon find that "bizzle" has some currency. Urban dictionary has it as "any word beginning with b" because it seems that rappers use it as a lazy way of forcing a rhyme. It's not in the OED though. Anyway, while testing this with Google's Ngram Viewer, I notice that there's a huge spike in the occurrence of "jimbo" in the 1820s. It's not clear what's causing this because the only corresponding work I can find is The history of Hindostan: translated from the Persian which mentions the "mountains of Jimbo". Should we add Jimbo to our list of mountains on this evidence ...?

    I agree that such data has to be analyzed carefully but it certainly still seems quite potentially useful. Even for things like comon mispellings.(see what I did there? ;-)) knowing that they appear quite often will help us make redirects and so on. I don't know of any automated way to do analysis like that, but in terms of giving editors a useful starting point of things to work on, based in data, it seems interesting. What are the 1000 most popular 'words' that don't appear in Wiktionary? Ahhh, now that's interesting and it sounds fun (to me anyway) to work through them and research what they are.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    We actually do include entries on particularly common misspellings - we just define them as misspellings. We include slang terms like fo shizzle and oddities like "pleeease" (an emphatic form of "please"), and we usually have a good laugh when the brick-and-mortar dictionaries announce their "new words" - for which we tend to have had entries for years. If we had a list of the 1000 most popular missing words, I would bet that we would work through them in a few weeks. The million most popular missing words, now that would be a challenge!
    However, since Wikimedia is not in the business of digitizing books (though maybe we should be), we must rely on Google for this data, and must surpass the barriers Google has erected against automated parsing of its data. bd2412 T 14:46, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    Are you bored?

    Here's a big topic that needs to be written: Hispanics and Latinos in California. Carrite (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

    I have to say, I can understand why it'd be daunting to take on something like that. Writing a decent article on a high-importance topic can be a very drawn-out process, as I've found out. Something like that would be perfect for a multi-editor collaboration, or else it would take one individual months or years to tackle it... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    I think I've seen a few reference books relating to ethnic groups in general and ethnic groups in the US in particular which might be useful in this regard. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    A stub? Amazing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    We do have a good article on Californios, though. I wish I could understand what "Hispanics and Latinos" are, but that's another story. RGloucester — ☎ 22:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
    @Core. Yeah, I was shocked when I found the piece to drop in a reading link. Carrite (talk) 00:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Actually I see that RGloucester has a point. Isn't Californio duplicative? Coretheapple (talk) 01:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    To a point, but it only offers in-depth coverage of the topic until the annexation, and says virtually nothing about California today. Furthermore, it does not address the many other sources of the Hispanic population from across South and Central America. bd2412 T 01:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    "Californio" only refers to the original peninsular and mestizo Spanish population that was present in California prior to the annexation of California by the United States, and their descendants. Yes, it does need more information on the present status of those people. They do make-up an important component of the Californian population. However, if one is talking about present day immigrants to California, that's quite a different topic. The idea of an article on "Hispanics and Latinos" in California is problematic for a variety of reasons, as it would involve conflating the Californios with these newcomers. RGloucester — ☎ 01:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Wow -- writing that article would be a huge (but fascinating) job. Here's one that's even better developed: Hispanics and Latinos in Texas. Antandrus (talk) 02:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    • "Hispanics" and "Latinos" are synonyms, as far as I'm aware. I think that Hispanos is the preferred term in the US but it looks like they have it as Latinos on Es-WP, for what it is worth. Carrite (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    THIS is sort of interesting. I hear Hispano on Univision etc. when I drop in briefly to work on my horrible Spanish... Carrite (talk) 03:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks for the replies, and thanks to Carrite for bringing this to our attention. I'm interested in this area and I'll try to pitch in. Carrite, feel free to remind me of such neglected articles directly (as I think you did once, with that Chualar crash, unless I'm confusing you with another editor). Coretheapple (talk) 16:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    One thing Misplaced Pages is missing is a suggestion box for new work. Articles for Creation is a backlogged catastrophe that should be immediately abolished and Today's Article for Improvement has more or less misfired... There needs to be some kind of a "Work Needed" area that people can visit when they are bored or where we can send newcomers who need something to do that involves tilling up new soil rather than running the harrow over the same sandy dust for the 15th time... Anyway, my two cents. Carrite (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Plenty are listed at Misplaced Pages:Community portal. WilyD 17:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    And, potentially, even more in the various pages Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, even if the only ones I've really gotten to yet are many of the religion based encyclopedias. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    I have doubts about the usefulness of making any special effort to reify these arbitrary classifications of people. As discussed at Hispanic–Latino naming dispute, Latino is a term of recent origin and arbitrary coverage. The article suggests it is a social "ethnicity" rather than a "race"; if so, well, don't hippies and Juggalos and hackers rate the same concern, having shared language and culture? Yet it's usually treated like a race, to the exclusion of obvious rival classification schemes like Aztecs and Mayas, or at least Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. There is a political disease in the U.S. of collecting this narrow and vague data by census, then having short-sighted and scheming politicians look at their precincts and divide all their policies into short term sops to "whites" and "blacks" and "Latinos" according to stereotype top issues for the three - thereby arbitrarily racializing politics, and substituting these racial stereotypes for the real needs of individual constituents. Now Misplaced Pages is no better than its sources and many sources speak of Hispanics and Latinos, but given a choice, I'd like to hope that editors would focus on articles that delve deeply and broadly into the heritage of all Californians rather than dividing them into these arbitrary categories. Wnt (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Without getting into a debate about the nature of race or ethnicity, Hispanos in common American use refers to Spanish-language-speaking people from whatever country (not just Spain) and their descendants. It is a term of self-identification and it is a classification of people recognized by the American government and it is a category of people studied academically. Now, are the titles of the articles mentioned by Antandrus and me right? Nah, I'm hinting pretty strongly that it should be Hispanics in California etc. or some such with the current name and Latinos in California as redirects. But should the article exist? Yeah, obviously. Carrite (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Actually, I'll take that last part back based on this from the lead of the "Naming Dispute" WP piece cited above: "Hispanic thus includes persons from Spain and Spanish-speaking Latin Americans but excludes Brazilians while Latino excludes persons from Spain but includes Spanish-speaking Latin Americans and Brazilians." I believe that is accurate. Carrite (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    Wnt has a point, but I am referring to a specific set of articles (the ones dealing Mexican-American migrant workers come to mind) that definitely belong in Misplaced Pages and need work. This is not exclude articles on other distinct ethnic groups in California. Armenians and Portuguese come to mind, assuming there is sufficient material to support articles on them. Coretheapple (talk) 19:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Seasonal Greets!

    Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015 !!!

    Hello Jimbo Wales, May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New year 2015.
    Happy editing,
    The Herald : here I am

    Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

    Seasonal Greets!

    Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015 !!!

    Hello Jimbo Wales, May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New year 2015.
    Happy editing,
    NorthAmerica 14:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

    #2 to you. Thanks Jimbo! NorthAmerica 14:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Misplaced Pages needs to be ready for North Korea

    I prefer this one

    I recognize that there is still some uncertainty about whether the Sony Pictures Entertainment hack was really motivated by desire to censor The Interview (2014 film) . But if it is true, then the hackers, emboldened by unprecedented victory, could soon be attacking sites like Misplaced Pages that distribute inconvenient facts. I think that surrender should not be an option for us, even if we had to resort to vandalism in order to distribute information about things like the "kwalliso".

    What this means is that WMF needs to take comprehensive action to ensure that there is absolutely as little "confidential" information in any of its computer systems as possible. That includes in the resources for Arbitrators, employees, developers... anybody. There shouldn't be any old financial information from donors lying around waiting to be stolen. Any libel bait that has been treated as too secret for admins to look at (such as pedophile allegations) ought to be printed out on paper and stored in a safe in the WMF office, then cryptographically overwritten. Even e-mail contact addresses might be proxied out to some highly secure external site, so that the hackers can't figure out who is who if (when) they break in and want to threaten the people they don't like.

    Meanwhile, we ought to think about our policies. WP:Outing already mentions "opposition research" rather than mere disclosure of an editor's identity as a standard, but we need to make sure it works like that. Even if a North Korean upload makes it clear that someone has a string of sockpuppets (by publishing all the checkuser data on the site at once), we should not allow ourselves to be drawn into internal battles to purge people like that from office while we are attacked from the outside, but should be ready at least to declare a blanket amnesty allowing anyone in such a position to put his house in order peacefully. We should be ready in extremis to revoke all passwords and re-register every account, starting with those with disclosed and committed identities that can be verified, then using them to prepare interview questions for others on IRC that could only be answered by the longtime users (no amount of cramming could prepare a NK hacker to explain how an administrator decided on a case about a particular user last year).

    We should also have some notion how to fight back. The most obvious way, by documenting the regime's crimes against humanity, we should be doing anyway. But given that no one in North Korea will see a Misplaced Pages page unless their government desires it, maybe we should be ready to cut off the access of their privileged few to the site at our end if we need to retaliate for something. Or perhaps we could penalize a hacking attack by overtly advertising efforts of groups that North Korea dislikes in the main site banner. We should not leave NK hackers with the impression that there is nothing to lose by taking a shot at us. Wnt (talk) 18:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Keep Calm and Carry On. Nothing much has changed. Security measures are pretty much ineffective when humans are involved in the system, because spear phishing is usually the easiest way to break into any system. If you want to keep something confidential, don't put it online, don't email it, and most definitely, don't share it with ArbCom, WMF or anybody else. Jehochman 18:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    That's what some people have been telling various Sony employees, but you should give a guy tips about how to avoid being raped before it happens, not use them to blame him for it afterward. I bet there's something that WMF can still do now to reduce the amount of information at risk of being stolen, even though the people it concerns no longer can do anything about it. Wnt (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    We are just a neutral encyclopedia project. We have not produced a comedy about assassinating their leader. We have better things to do than to prepare for a threat that does not exist. Everyking (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    You really think they only object to that one thing in all the world? Wnt (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    We are hardly the only information source on the Internet that paints an unflattering picture of North Korea. I don't think there's any call for panic here. Seraphimblade 19:33, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages resembles North Korea and its practices a lot, of course not in the same dimensions, but still. Wikipedians censor all criticism, and most are afraid to question authorities, and if somebody does, he's getting attacked like it happened here.183.222.99.247 (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
    There are certain resemblances, because Misplaced Pages is a fundamentally communist enterprise. As such, like North Korea, we accumulate control over extensive public resources in the hands of a few who can become prone to ideological or baser sorts of corruption. And because it is online we are prone to a sort of cyberbullying - which combines spying, overwrought concerns about the details of what that spying uncovers, and fear to oppose those behind the bullying. That said, we have several major bulwarks to defend us: we don't own any concentration camps, we have already licensed the world to reuse and rework our content as they wish, and we have many people who know better than to kowtow to censorship. That is not to say that Misplaced Pages will not eventually be corrupted beyond repair, but the process is slow, and we have some control over how quickly it progresses, and we can be ready to replace it with something better that includes all its useful content when the end finally comes. If we grow old we all know how that feels. But if there are reasons to criticize Misplaced Pages, the fact that its founder has allowed us a way to have a wide-ranging and quite critical discussion of the people who gave him $500,000 which he has graciously donated charity... that's about the last spot I'd pick to start digging. Wnt (talk) 23:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Misplaced Pages Edit 2014

    Copyright concerns with Wikibooks' suicide instruction manual

    Mr Wales, the part of Wikibooks that details suicide methods contains a lot of material of dubious origin. Much of the material appears to have been pasted from Nathan Larson's SuicideWiki by User:Leucosticte. SuicideWiki appears to have been compiled from a variety of sources, including but not limited to Usenet postings. Even if that wiki had a Misplaced Pages-compatible license, the original authors would need to be properly identified and credited. Since SuicideWiki no longer exists, it is difficult to know if the phrase "Cold water extraction (CWE) is a well-known technique that is used to extract opiates from pharmaceutical drugs that contain a combination of opiates" occured first here in 2011 or on SuicideWiki, but it didn't appear on Wikibooks until 2014. This page implies that another wiki may also be a source of some of this suicide information. With only a few active admins on Wikibooks, perhaps you can round up a few volunteers to look into this situation? Thanks. Nasal Ant Horn (talk) 21:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    It looks like Wikibooks has discussed this article at length ( ). I don't think a Wikibooks contributor should have to defend himself here; nor should we assume that he didn't write a post on Usenet or a different Wiki (or text that those sources plagiarized, etc.) Since this is your fourth edit you may not be familiar, but this seems a bit like "WP:Forum shopping" here. I'd say it is best to bring it up on Wikibooks and leave it to the Wikibooks regulars to work through it. Copyright infringement from abandoned text that was publicly released would be improper, but it isn't an immediate threat and so it can be fixed by routine editing if need be. I don't believe for a moment that discussing methods used has to lead to increased rates of death; for example, reading briefly through that Toxicology section it occurs to me that those interested in suicide intervention might use "Nembutal" as a way to get searchers at risk to come to their hopefully beneficial website. Wnt (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

    Credit where credit is due

    I'd like to make a public statement of appreciation for the work that User:LiAnna (Wiki Ed) and her colleagues at Wiki Ed have been doing. If you look at Misplaced Pages:Education noticeboard#Update from Wiki Ed, 16 December, you can see a model of being genuinely responsive to concerns from the editor community. Given how there have been so many incidents about some staff at WMF not always hearing editors' feedback, this is a refreshing case of doing it "right". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)