User talk:Ghirlandajo: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 06:09, 15 July 2006 editRbraunwa (talk \| contribs)11,910 edits →Manuel Tolsá: Thanks← Previous edit		Revision as of 11:33, 15 July 2006 edit undoGhirlandajo (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers89,657 edits →on leaving: rmv a bunch of offensive trolling from a user who is not allowed to post on my talk page, because I don't talk with himNext edit →
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	:I haven't read all of the context here, but from what I have seen of your contributions, I hope you stay! ] 10:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)		:I haven't read all of the context here, but from what I have seen of your contributions, I hope you stay! ] 10:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
	:Ghirlandajo! how could you have ever got caught up in such a knot? Think of me! think of ]" We need you here. --] 16:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)		:Ghirlandajo! how could you have ever got caught up in such a knot? Think of me! think of ]" We need you here. --] 16:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

	We had our differences, but I always thought you were a great if POVed content creator. Please consider that there is no 'anti-Ghirla' conspiracy, your own behavour brought the current situation upon you. I hope when you mature enough to be a civil and respectful contributor, you will return to our project, we need peope with your knowledge and energy. Good luck, --] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 20:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

	:Piotrus, you should really stop going from talk page to talk page even unrelated ones, to express your negative opinions on Ghirla and bring up that infamous RfC. Yesterday, you resumed that at ] right after I pointed out to you at your own mediation page and even here you could not hold yourself from making your message really looking like you are chastising him yet again. No one is perfect but there is an appropriate and inappropriate ways to deal with problems you have with some here.

	:Ghirla, of course you were wrong at times but the only way not to be is not to be in the project. I think certain individuals are too happy to see you leave to allow this to happen. Just the thought of their rejoicing should be appalling enough to not give them that pleasure. Otherwise, it would just a bit easier to POV push, you know, without such a strong opponent :). And how about ]? --]

	::Would you prefer I bring out the RfArb? :> I think you should stop being so supportive of Ghirla's bad side. We all agree he has a great side as content creator, but his bad side as implite editor needs to be reformed. Editor who ignors a ] of good collaboration is not the one who is best suited for a project fundamentally built around collaboration, like Misplaced Pages. I hope to see a reformed Ghirla returning, one who is both a great content contributor and a polite and respectful in discussions. For that, I think community needs to make it clear to Ghirla that he must change in that regard, and that no matter how active he is, this does not give him any excuse to ignore ] and other related policies.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 06:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

	Piotrus, there is no RfArb and you know that and occasional incivil remarks, while inexcusable, is not a basis for an RfArb case since that requires a gross edit abuse. I am not supportive of Ghirla's "bad side". I am supportive of his good side, that is ''contributions'' and appalled by your using every possible forum, including even an to add an insult to injury.

	At the WP:AN you expressed that you are not pleased by being "lumped together" with Ghirla, while agree with my using of your own, Mikka's and Halibutt's blocks to "illustrate" a problem with blocks. First of all, I did not use to illustate the problem, because, unlike the blocks above, Halibutt's block are unrelated to this problem. that were for mass-disruption of dozens of German city articles to make a WP:Point over the Gdansk vote

	I "lumped" Ghirla, together with you and Mikka, not in the list of editors compiled by politeness, but in the list of editors compiled by the quantity and quality of contributions. If you consider Ghirla unworthy to be "lumped" with you by the ''contributions'', I would say this is rather arrogant of you. I don't want to spend time to do a comparative study of your and his contributions, but both are immense and certainly irreplaceable. I hope, for Misplaced Pages's sake, that such editors would not be pushed out by the insults of the unfair blocks by the admins who don't know what they are doing.

	Many times I felt offended by your friend Halibutt, but it never crossed my mind that absence of Halibutt is something I would want and the reason is his contributions, despite his temper and quite disagreeable to me views. --] 05:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

	:Actually, I understand the reasons. Many contributors from western countries tend to have a bias against non-western (or non-west-supporting) ones. Most people can't analyze themselves and can never understand they aren't neutral, or, even when trying to be neutral, accept the facts, but retain view that "despite that, in general..." - here goes the bias. This factor multiplied with number of western contributors forms a strong systemic bias which breaks the neutrality on the large scale, often shocking to new editors (especially Asian, not Russian, though) and causing stress for more experienced ones.

	:In general, your way of repairing this was correct - creating articles and defending the position on existing ones. But it seems sometimes the discussions on specific articles became quite offensive and uncivil, and, as offense hidden beyond civil wording is worse than just aggression, the reaction is understandable and possibly intentionally provoked. Final results were predictable and quite common.

	:However, just giving up is actually an ineffective response (isn't it what was expected?), and it won't help against what matters. I'd suggest to take a rest (it seems to be hot in Russia these days, but with this plenty of rivers it takes just a well-tuned UAZ to get to the real world), keeping away all wikis, nets, oversized calculators and other things that don't matter. Just forget it all, with no exceptions.

	:] 23:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

	I also agree with the response above. Leaving is an ineffective response and actually seeding joy of those who would like to see just this to happen. Actually, this helped me to stay on when couple of time I considered pulling the plug due to stress of dealing with some persistent POV-pushers. --] 05:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

	:"there is no RfArb" - ]? Granted, it's not an RfArb against Ghirla, but it's one where he was officialy warned by ArbCom about his behaviour. And Irpen, I am not disputing Ghirla's many valuable contributions, I am talking about his excessive incivility, one that as shown even promted ArbCom to react. The question, rather hard to answer, is whether Girla's contributions outweight the contributions of other users he scared or offended away from Misplaced Pages with his biting the newcomers and abuse of more experienced editors. I have a thick skin and learned to stand such abuse. ]. Friendly and respectful environment is a must for collaborative projects like Misplaced Pages, and no matter how prolific a contributor is, if he is extremly rude and uncivil, he will eventually do more harm then good by driving other people away.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 00:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

	Hard to answer? Well, something makes me think that such statements would assure that Ghirla won't be leaving. You know, I was driven nuts by some here too and not once I thought of leaving. The thought about joy it would give to certain individuals was an important factor for me to abandon those thoughts. --] 01:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
	:That's a... very interesting argument.--] <sup><font color="green">]</font></sup> 02:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

	==DYK==		==DYK==

Revision as of 11:33, 15 July 2006

ARCHIVES:

After many hundred articles contributed to this project, I lost any real motivation to put up with antics of the fools with tools and to persevere with my active and time-consuming participation in this project. In mid-July I decided to accept an invitation to migrate to Russian Misplaced Pages where atmosphere towards prolific content creators is less hostile and where I am going to be active full time. Due to the ever friendly attitude of Irpen, Wetman and some other great wikipedians, I am likely to be still active in English Misplaced Pages on Fridays from 17.00 to 22.00 Moscow Time. If you want a prompt response to your message, please consider posting it on my page in Russian Misplaced Pages.

Holy crap!

Holy crap, you've contributed exponentially! I envy you! Good work. Aaрон Кинни (t) 06:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

on leaving

Take it from me who's been living here in the West for ten years. They look and sound more menacing than they are. If you can, please don't become angry. You can keep any article you like for yourself, but not on Misplaced Pages. They do it to prevent a hierarchy from springing up. I'm not telling you to be awash wtih joy when your article becomes edited, but it wouldn't hurt to take a filosofskaja perspektiva on the thing. --VKokielov 17:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Second that. I would be devastated if you really quit. Check the preceding heading, for instance. --Pan Gerwazy 20:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Thirded. I would be immensely sad if you would quit, Ghirla :( Please stay! -- Grafikm 23:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Fourthed. Per above - you are one of the most productive editors. It would be a significant loss for Misplaced Pages if you left. --Tēlex 23:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Fifthed. You simply cannot do it to us abakharev 01:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

But of course! Also, please see this. --Irpen 04:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read all of the context here, but from what I have seen of your contributions, I hope you stay! Jbhood 10:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo! how could you have ever got caught up in such a knot? Think of me! think of User:Giano" We need you here. --Wetman 16:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

DYK

On July 9, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Spanish Baroque, which you created. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Mgm| 20:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Romanesque, Baroque...Quousque tandem, Ghirlandajo?

Dear Ghirla... I think that there is a structural problem with our editions. I thank (again) your efforts and encourage you to continue with this project, I think that it is worthwhile. When I first heard about it, I felt so surprised and emotioned thinking in a free, universal Enciclopedia, at everybody´s hands, free and collaborative, I couldn´t resist to form part of it. I don´t know more of your leaving than the messages above, but think it twice.

Now...I think part of the problem could be that we cannot think that the only valid point of view is ours. I know that you write a lot (A LOT) in this wikipedia, and it can be tiring to see that your editions are changed. If we change what we think is bad (or false, or incomplete...) somebody else can think that that was complete, or true or fine. THAT IS THE POINT FOR THE TALK PAGES. I say this for several editions and reversions you have just made because that was your point of view, without a simple word, as if you were tired of giving explanations to poor ignorants. Some of them have been already discussed, but now I find:

1- That the article you have made of Baroque Architecture is "untouchable": no word can be added or removed without a reversion. The only explanation is: "Garcilaso, please integrate your additions into Spanish Baroque and Spanish architecture; this article is just a brief overview; it cannot be endless)". Well, you may think that the article is perfect like that, but I think it is not. If it gives the only explanation of Churrigueresque as a superficial, decorative style for plain facades, the vission of the style is incomplete, and not "enciclopedian". After that briliant speech about facades, one can be mistaken. Not mentioning two important baroque spatial structures like Granada`s Charterhouse or Transparente from the Cathedral of Toledo is form my point of view, unwise for a general overview of the style. The same happens to the Madrid 17th century baroque. Who are you to decide about what is relevant or what is not more than other wikipedists? I told you once, and I implore again: Ask before deleting!

2-You didn´t even know about the existence of the First Romanesque and find yourself capable to decide WITHOUT discussing the fact, which is the correct name for the article. As you recognized, there are other wikipedian who know more about that subject. Some have participated in the discussion, and found that the best name for the article is First Romanesque. Please, please, ASK before deleting or moving, yours is not the only point of view in the world, and perhaps others have good documentation too, although their level of English could be worse. I again encourage you to continue with your valious apportations to this project, the only thing I want to transmit you is that listening and talking and improving a poor article is much better that the best of the editions if it is authoritarian, and collaterally, one could learn a lot!. Yours sincerely, До скорой встречи,Garcilaso 16:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, my greetings for deciding to stay here. I see that you have changed the article on First Romanesque, thank you for your help. About Baroque, you have a message in Talk:Baroque architecture--Garcilaso 18:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

So the only way to have an opinion of yours is to edit the article and get it together with your reversion... I am still waiting for your answer, I don`t want to be acussed of "revert warring" if I change the article Baroque architecture after your silence. Yours eagerly, --Garcilaso 09:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Father Arseny

I was wanting to create a father arseny page but lack info. Please help. Thanks LoveMonkey 17:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You are not to even think of leaving!

I leave this site for five fucking minutes, and what do I return to? - Shock! I'm mortified you uncouth bastard Ghirla, you have used the "eff word" in public - what sort of dumb fucking bastard are you? Rude edit summaries too? - it's beyond belief - you should be flogged off the site while simultaneously being tarred and feathered. Well that all seems to have happened, so would you mind now returning so we can all get on with the project in hand, and in future remember some people have very middle class sensibilities and while you and I may periodically say to each other "your last edit was a load of fucking rubbish" some other people are of a little more delicate disposition. I'm glad to see Wetman has tried to talk common sense into you - (he could be forgiven, as the only gentleman on the site, for thinking he keeps some very strange company) - so come on get real and lets get on with it! Oh and if you are now seeing sense, could you please expand Alessio Tramello (no-one else, save Wetman, is likely to have the ability) as per request on my talk page as I have been skiving from a real life job to go and watch football, and now have to spend a few serious days in the real fucking world Giano | talk 20:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, Andrey! I've registered as KNewman in Russian Misplaced Pages myself like a month ago. I certainly understand your position, for I see how people abuse Misplaced Pages and its valuable contributors. I'm also thinking about moving to the Russian Misplaced Pages myself (you prolly noticed how I've been submitting only stubs lately). I'm gradually losing interest, but the habit (addiction?) won't let me go :). Maybe, something will change. Anyway, what will your name be in the Russian Misplaced Pages? Lemme know. Take care and try to visit us here more often. Cheers! KNewman 05:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to see you go. This is a big loss to the English Misplaced Pages. Good luck with the Russian language version. 172 | Talk 06:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

What a Delightful Contribution

What a delightful contribution, Giano. I'm sure Ghirla will reconsider his thoughts on leaving, especially since you actually left your real life job momentarily, to go and watch football. Dr. Dan 22:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! - are you trying to make a point here? Giano | talk 13:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No, can't I give you a f-----g compliment without there being a hidden agenda, or some deep thought behind it? If I was trying to make a point, believe me, you wouldn't have to ask me if I was. Dr. Dan 13:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No you f-----g can't, because this is the grumpy page; and Mr Grumpy himself seems to be sadly absent - let us all just hope he returns to continue his valuable edits, or in all seriousness, it will be Misplaced Pages's loss. Giano | talk 22:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright fine, then don't f-----g, thank me in that case! Dr. Dan 02:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Winter War

Your edit comment for undoing Kurt Leyman's edit on Winter War was "rvv", despite his edit comment and his entry on the Talk page. While I agree with your revision, I don't think Kurt's edit was vandalism. Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this. -- JHunterJ 15:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

JHunterJ, Kurt have shown enough to assume POV pushing rather than bad faith. And please do not use patronizing templates to leave a message to anyone but newbies. If you have anything to say to the user, like Ghirla, please take a minute to write it on your own. --Irpen 19:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Terminals

Don't we all just love Nixer. I could explain him for the zillionth time that what he does in plain rude, but technically he is not violating anything. As long as he doesn't, I just don't want to waste my time on one letter discrepancy, moving stuff back and forth. In this context, it doesn't make one iota of a difference. Unless his moves interfere with work of other editors (and please let me know if they do), I abstain.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Lvov family

Thanks for the reply. I was in Aleksin and Popovka yesterday. I now know that the last 2 sentences in that little section I wrote on the estate were rubbish. The house burnt down before WW2 having been used as a Dom Kulturi since the revolution. Are there any problems other than that? I think it would be a good idea to have some reference to the L'vov family's estate in Popovka on their page. I belive they were only there from the mid 19th century until the revolution but I still think it's relevant. There are various memorials to Georgi Evgenevich in both Aleksin and Popovka.

Thanks again.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/Аварцы

Could you expand Caucasian Avars by translating above mentioned article? I would be very grateful.

Regards, Luka Jačov 23:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I shall try to find time to translate some bits of this stuff over the following days. I don't relish their unsourced genocide blabber, though. --Ghirla 12:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't bother me

Any time you revert without discussion I will be happy to re-revert you. Note that I did not re-revert Mikkalai's revert even though he made the exact same revert because he entered discussion on the talk page. --Ideogram 01:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghirla, please, please,please forget about this guy and his reverts.

Remember June 17th? Yes, that was when you had a row over the redirection/disambiguation page Oleg, had a row with Halibutt and supported me against a RUSSIAN user over Pyotr Leschenko. June 17th was also the day when Ideogram proposed to mediate between you and Suicup. The same day, he was at the village pump asking whether sending e-mails to other guys someone had a tiff with before proposing that person for RfC, would be considered canvassing for votes. (archive, so you'll have to search for "Ideogram") Three days later, he is at your talk page, threatening with ArbCom. When you take this off, he suggests an RfC on you at the Russo-Turkish War talk page. All of this within his first month at Misplaced Pages. And now the mediator is in a revert war with you over exactly the same matter! So, forget it, putting up a NPOV disputed tag over that section was the only thing to do.--Pan Gerwazy 12:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for your alert. I have had apprehensions about this account from the very start. It would have been instructive to check it for sockpuppeteering, too. --Ghirla 12:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

He's either really a young newbie who, in spite of or because of being at the computer for 16 hours every day, has failed as a moderator - or he's a returnee making calculated errors. In both cases, he won't be socketpuppeteering, I think. But again: forget about him. Take care and uspehov at Russian Wiki. (yes, I've been there) --Pan Gerwazy 13:40, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It's quite amusing how paranoid you people are. Ghirla has accused me of trolling, wikistalking, revert-warring, and now sockpuppetry. You people are really incapable of assuming good faith, aren't you? --Ideogram 13:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Manuel Tolsá

Hi. That's not ridiculous at all, although I admit I should have cited a source for it. It's not my opinion, but an opinion expressed in several of my sources. (I'm not qualified to have an opinion on that question.) Here is one source:

"It is one of the finest in America, and, according to Humboldt, second only to the statue of Marcus Aurelius in Rome."

The original Humboldt quote is "M. Tolsa, professor of sculpture at Mexico, was even able to cast an equestrian statue of King Charles the Fourth; a work which, with the exception of the Marcus Aurelius at Rome, surpasses in beauty and purity of style everything which remains in this way in Europe."

I actually toned that statement down somewhat to allow for the passage of time, for one thing. Both of the statues mentioned in the quote are used as illustrations in the Misplaced Pages article Equestrian statue.

Here is a quote from Frances Calderón de la Barca's Life in Mexico:

We spent a long time here examining these antiquities; but we have seen nothing in Mexico to equal the beauty of the colossal equestrian statue in bronze of Charles IV, placed on a pedestal of Mexican marble, which stands in the court of the University, but formerly adorned the middle of the square. It is a magnificent picture of sculpture, the masterpiece of Tolosa, remarkable for the noble simplicity and purity of its style, and was made at the expense of an ex-viceroy, the Marquis of Branciforte.

My intention was to show the level of artistic achievement in Mexico at the time. I think that is an important point to make. I plan to put the direct quote from Humboldt in the article. I don't see how there could be any objection to that. But please let me know what you think. Rbraunwa 17:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I put the Humboldt quote in the article. Thanks for adding the other image, by the way. Rbraunwa 06:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)