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This talk page is for discussing the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of the theory of Evolution. For that, please visit talk.origins or similar forums. Newcomers to Misplaced Pages and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of common ones here. Misplaced Pages policy notes for new editors: A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents opponents of the theory of evolution in an unsympathetic light and violates Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View The parts of this policy that apply directly to this article are: Pseudoscience and related fringe theories Undue weight Making necessary assumptions Giving "equal validity". These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No original research and Cite your sources. Tempers can flare here. All contributors are asked to please respect Misplaced Pages's code of civility, including No personal attacks and Abide by consensus. See Misplaced Pages talk page guidelines. Important pointers for new editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'. Please use edit summaries. If you make a suggestion that does not align with a policy, you can expect a pointer to the policy. This is not meant to be rude, but to help smooth the process of building the encyclopedia. If you receive such a pointer, you should take the time to read and understand the policy before re-raising the issue. If you persist in objections to content because of a refusal to accept the consensus or even an inability to understand the issue, your behavior is considered disruptive editing. You should expect your discussions to be archived or userfied, and you may be subject to blocking and sanctions. Please peruse the FAQ or search the archives below, to ensure that you are not rehashing old topics. Old topics resurrected without new evidence are likely to be ignored and archived quickly. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

view · edit Frequently asked questions These questions arise frequently on this talk page. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Is this article unfairly biased in favor of evolution? A1: There have been arguments over the years about the article's neutrality and concerns that it violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The NPOV policy does not require all points of view to be represented as equally valid, but it does require us to represent them. The policy requires that we present the theory of evolution from the point of view of disinterested philosophers, biologists and other scientists, and that we also include the views of evolution proponents and opponents. We should not present minority views as though they are majority ones, but we should also make sure the minority views are correctly described and not just criticized. Q2: Should Intelligent Design (ID) be equated with creationism? A2: ID is a form of creationism, and many sources argue that it is identical. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and Phillip E. Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept. Not everyone agrees with this. For example, philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that intelligent design is very different from creation science, in that it does not depend on distortion of the evidence, or on the assumption that it is immune to empirical evidence. It depends only on the idea that the hypothesis of a designer makes sense and that it is not assigned a vanishingly small probability (see "Public Education and Intelligent Design", Philosophy and Public Affairs, Vol. 36, no. 2, 2008). Although intelligent design proponents do not name the designer, they make it clear that the designer is the Christian god. In drafts of the 1989 high-school level textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivations of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design". Taken together, the Kitzmiller ruling, statements of ID's main proponents, the nature of ID itself, and the history of the movement, it becomes apparent—Discovery Institute's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—that ID is a form of creationism, modified to appear more secular than it really is. This is in line with the Discovery Institute's stated strategy in the Wedge Document. Q3: Should ID be characterized as science? A3: The majority of scientists state ID should not be characterized as science. This was the finding of Judge Jones during the Kitzmiller hearing, and is a position supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Scientists say that ID cannot be regarded as scientific theory because it is untestable even in principle. A scientific theory predicts the outcome of experiments. If the predicted outcome is not observed, the theory is false. There is no experiment which can be constructed which can disprove intelligent design. Unlike a true scientific theory, it has absolutely no predictive capability. It doesn't run the risk of being disproved by objective experiment. Notes and references ^ Phillip Johnson: "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." Johnson 2004. Christianity.ca. Let's Be Intelligent About Darwin. "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy." Johnson 1996. World Magazine. Witnesses For The Prosecution. "So the question is: "How to win?" That's when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing"—the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." Johnson 2000. Touchstone magazine. Berkeley's Radical An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson "I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science."…"Now the way that I see the logic of our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?"…"I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves." Johnson 1999. Reclaiming America for Christ Conference. How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won Dembski: "Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory," Touchstone Magazine. Volume 12, Issue4: July/August, 1999 Wedge Document Discovery Institute, 1999. "embers of the national ID movement insist that their attacks on evolution aren't religiously motivated, but, rather, scientific in nature." … "Yet the express strategic objectives of the Discovery Institute; the writings, careers, and affiliations of ID's leading proponents; and the movement’s funding sources all betray a clear moral and religious agenda." Inferior Design Chris Mooney. The American Prospect, August 10, 2005. "ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief." Expert Witness Report Barbara Forrest Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, April, 2005. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., pp. 31 – 33. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., 4. Whether ID is Science, p. 87

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	Rejection of evolution by religious groups was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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ourside the usa

i have deleted the bit that said this discussion is a debate in the Netherlands. It is not. I am from holland, read a lot of different newspapers, watch a lot of newsmedia on tv, and it's not an issue. Besides, i dont see the Netherlands named in the footnoted sources.

this link is dead btw http://tbo.com/content/2008/feb/16/na-clash-over-creationism-is-evolving-in-europes-s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.27.206 (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I did a quick search and found several sources supporting the claim that Creationism is debated in the Netherlands. I have added one. Thanks for pointing out the dead link - I have fixed it. RockMagnetist (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Why the deletion Apidium 23

Apidium23 deleted the New York times statement that the Discovery Institute claim was signed by few scientists but many evangelists. NYT is a reputable source, why the deletion? Can you explain?John D. Croft (talk) 14:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

As best I can tell, Apidium23 did not delete anything, but rather added (or restored) a paragraph. Did the deletion you refer to happen some time ago? Can you explain what you would like more clearly? Rick Norwood (talk) 13:57, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Apidium23 edited a {{cite web format which included a title of that text into a shorter ref format. Though I cannot say why, it does not change the prominent content of the article and anyone clicking through will get to the title anyway. Markbassett (talk) 19:57, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Darwin's method of argument

I added the following to the bottom of a paragraph discussing quote mining of Darwin:

Darwin's didactic prose presentation often points out perceived problems with the aspect of the theory under discussion, and then proceeds to rebut those objections; quote mines often quote the objections without the resolutions, leaving the perception that Darwin heavily doubted his own theories. One such typical quote mine reads:

which I then followed with a quote from an existing webpage containing two such quote mines, referencing the site. The edit was deleted because of "not a reliable source". I imagine it is possible to delete my addition because I didn't include a reference which explicitly states the same point I was making about Darwin's writing, but that isn't what the complaint said; it was (I believe) targeted toward the reference which I did include. I could put the change back in with the quote but not the reference, but the quote looses its evidentiary message, as I could have made the quote up myself, making me the quote miner in not providing context. And I presume it's understood that such a quote will not, by definition, be found on any truly reliable source. What is it that I'm required to do here to make the valid point about Darwin's writing? SkoreKeep (talk) 16:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You could use the TalkOrigins Archive, quote 2.6. Note that if you provide the objection, you should also provide the resolution. RockMagnetist (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

‎

Outside the United States

Per your request: How is the statement from the report (Qualitative differences between naïve and scientific theories of evolution) that I referenced taken out of context? Here is the last paragraph (from that report) in toto.

Devout atheists like Dawkins (1987) speculate that disbelief in evolution stems from a misunderstanding of Darwin’s theory, for anyone who grasps the explanatory power of natural selection cannot help but affirm its validity. However, studies that have measured both participants’ belief in natural selection and participants’ understanding of natural selection (e.g., Demastes et al., 1995; Lawson & Worsnop, 1992; Sinatra, Southerland, McConaughy, & Demastes, 2003) have found no significant correlation between the two. Consistent with these studies, participants in the present study were no more likely to endorse the statement “natural selection is the best explanation for how a species adapts to its environment” if they understood natural selection than if they did not. Indeed, 12 of the 19 transformationists endorsed the validity of Darwin’s theory of evolution, and 1 of the 11 variationists denied the factuality of evolution altogether. If participants in the present study are at all representative of participants in the evolutionist- creationist debates waged in local courtrooms, newspapers, and school board meetings, one must wonder which theory of evolution—variationism or transformationism— is actually being debated.

Personally, I don't see how "studies that have measured both participants’ belief in natural selection and participants’ understanding of natural selection ... have found no significant correlation between the two." is cherry picking, but I am willing to be educated. Dan Watts (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought that was an interesting blog. I think what's missing in your statement is that the the people surveyed are not experts; their "understanding" is what you would get from a brief survey in a course on biology. I'm not sure why you put it in Outside the United States; a better place for it might be Science education. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I note that, in an edit summary, @SkepticalRaptor calls the use of a blog as a reliable source "silly". In this case, I disagree. USERG states that "Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications." This blog is hosted by the Cultural Cognition Project at Yale Law School, a group whose members do research on this issue; and much of the blog is summarizing material that is published in scholarly journals. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The remark was put where the graphic was placed, and this quote is from Qualitative differences between naïve and scientific theories of evolution in the Journal of Cognitive Psychology, not the blog. Dan Watts (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It is unlikely that the tabulated poll results were only responses from experts. Dan Watts (talk) 10:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

So,

1) The sentence excised is supported by the reference.

2) It is germane to the subject (people's opinions).

3) Why is consensus in this referenced statement necessary? Are some facts BETTER than others (Orwellian Misplaced Pages?)

Dan Watts (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, this is the wrong place for this information. This study was conducted by Harvard Summer School study pool. That being said, one study of 42 students is hardly definitive, considering that the average amount of biology classes taken by the group was 1.5 (range0-4), only 76% of participants claimed to be familiar with Darwin’s theory of evolution, the subjects were asked to answer in accordance with DARWIN'S theory (excluding Lamarck, ect.), and the author himself states "...the sample included two anti-evolutionists (most likely creationists) and at least thirteen students skeptical of natural selection." Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

What do you think is the average amount of biology classes taken by the public that was polled, or the percentage familiar with Darwin's theory, or those likely creationists or skeptical of natural selection? Dan Watts (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Or how about “misconceptions about even the basic principles of Darwin's theory of evolution are extremely robust, even after years of education in biology”. Quoting Ferrari and Chi (The nature of naive explanations of natural selection. Int J Sci Educ. 1998;20:1231–1256. doi:10.1080/0950069980201005) from T. Ryan Gregory's Understanding Natural Selection: Essential Concepts and Common Misconceptions Evo Edu Outreach (2009) 2:156–175 doi:10.1007/s12052-009-0128-1 where he references 42 tests, surveys of tests, and interviews of students age 12 through graduate university level as well as science educators. prospective teachers and scientists. Would that be a more comprehensive reference (which appears to have a similar conclusion)? Thoughts? Dan Watts (talk) 04:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The author goes on to state, however, that "Our thesis for explaining students' failure to understand this concept, or evolution in general, is not that they necessarily fail to understand individual Darwinian principles; rather, they often fail to understand the ontological features of equilibration processes, of which evolution is one instance.". The studies you provided also focus on peoples answers in a Darwinian evolution (variationism) versus Lamarckian evolution (transformationism) sense. In other words, they got good scores for "Darwinian" answers and bad scores for "Lamarckian" ones. It's not that some of them can't explain evolution, it's that the ones that see evolution as event based resort to a mostly obsolete form of it (Lamarckian) as a framework to reason, because Lamarckian evolution IS more event based. I think this would make a good addition to some other articles. Very interesting. I'm not sure why it would belong in THIS article, however. Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 05:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The presence of the poll by countries graphic appears to give a message that beliefs concerning evolution are driving (or are strongly correlated with) science understanding and science literacy. The studies references point out that ain't (arsent per Brother Dave Gardner) so. By the way, the 'obsolete' Lamarckian answers are wrong, not just obsolete. Dan Watts (talk) 09:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

If you're interested, search for "Inheritance of Acquired Behaviour Adaptations and Brain Gene Expression in Chickens" or "Inheritance of acquired traits in plants: Reinstatement of Lamarck" to name a couple, or just read the Misplaced Pages entry on Epigenetic inheritance for evidence for Lamarckian evolution. That being said, none of these studies have anything to do with creationism. They analyzed responses in a event process versus a equilibration process, not in a creation versus evolution context. Since this is the creation-evolution controversy article, I don't really see the relevance. Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

SO:

1) Remarks (facts) presented (and reverted by someone who hasn't deigned to enter THIS discussion) are supported by published papers, including quotes from aforementioned papers.

2) The remarks (categorized as edit warring) address the information contained in the poll graphic (apparently appropriate since no approbation of IT is seen).

Thoughts? Dan Watts (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Not relevant to the section Outside the United States. Might be relevant for an article on biology education, but would need a connection to the topic for the Science education section of this article. Do the studies discuss or provide a connection to the topic of this article? Vsmith (talk) 13:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, relevant to the poll graphic which was placed in Outside the United States. Disagree? Dan Watts (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Those references do not support the graphic and are not relevant to the section. Vsmith (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Those references DESCRIBE what you cannot reasonably infer from the graphic. How is that not relevant to the graphic? Dan Watts (talk) 16:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Sez who? Do the refs discuss the graph? Seems akin to WP:OR or WP:SYN if not. Also agree with what User:Mophedd said above ↑. Vsmith (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Claims of discrimination against creationists and doubters of Darwin

I have added a reference to Bergman's claims of academic discrimination against creationists and other sceptics of neo-Darwinism.. Cpsoper (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I most certainly do not agree with Jerry Bergman's book. That being said it is a valid reference for the pseudo-science of creationists. I am leaving the change and the reference for now. A more lengthy discussion in this talk page might be required. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 15:22, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, the reference had been removed, the reason cited, is given as

'Reference to a small-press book that claims academia discriminates against creationists is non-notable. There are such books about most fringe beliefs -- anti-vaxers, birthers, and countless others all claim they are being discriminated against'.

I don't think this justifies the removal. First notability does not apply to content within a page WP:NNC. The page is about Creation and Evolution, not vaccination, home birth or any other movement. What matters more is whether the inclusion is WP:UNDUE. Whether the book comes from a small press or not, Jerry Bergman is a reliable source for creationists' and Darwin doubters' opinions about discrimination, and his documentation is published, referenced and detailed. The issue he raises itself might be disputed but can hardly be properly described as irrelevant to this section. On the contary, his claim is that it is highly relevant: the disturbing premise of this book documents widespread discrimination by Darwin loyalists against Darwin skeptics in academia and within the scientific community. Multiple case studies expose the tactics used to destroy the careers of Darwin skeptics, denying them earned degrees and awards, tenure, and other career benefits offered to non-skeptics. The book exposes how freedom of speech and freedom of expression are widely promoted as not applicable to Darwin doubters, and reveals the depth and extent of hostility and bigotry exhibited towards those who would dare to question Darwinism. The book also shows how even the slightest hint of sympathy for Darwin Doubters often results in a vigorous and rabid response from those who believe such sympathies represent an attack on science itself. Cpsoper (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not doubt that creationists claim that academia discriminates against them. The question is whether this claim is an important part of what creationists believe or is, as it seems to me, non-notable. However, will leave it for other editors to decide. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:21, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

If it's significant to the topic, it should be simple to find a reliable secondary source discussing the claim and how it has been received by the mainstream. Please do that, and discuss before re-adding this claim from a fringe source. . dave souza, talk 22:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I am leaning towards Dave Souza's solution. We need another source to confirm or deny statement. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 00:15, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I've added a reference from a book review from a well recognised general Christian review website, this is no fringe opinion.Cpsoper (talk) 01:10, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I've noticed another user removed your statement, citing not a reliable source. Please consult: WP:REF WP:RS to understand reliable sources. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 09:24, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, having had lengthy discussions about RS before, the page you mean to direct me to is WP:RS. This source is reliable for general Christian opinion, it is editorialised and not self published. There is no justification for removing it or the quote.

Remember the issue in question is not whether Creationism is a fringe opinion, but whether this report about Darwin sceptics in general receiving a rough time from their academic peers, in a way that has sometimes transgressed proper bounds, is representative of the community it stands for, the secondary source discusses and validates the first as a view fairly widely held by Creationists and other Darwin sceptics. As there has been disagreement, I shall request comment from external editors on this specific question. Cpsoper (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Claims of discrimination against Darwin sceptics

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Should the section on public policy include a reference to concerns about the silencing of dissidents? Cpsoper (talk) 12:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Urrrk... I needed more coffee when when I sent a link earlier, you are correct it was WP:RS. At any rate... from reliable sources, I found a passage that caught my attention. "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." That being said, with the book reference AND the website as a reliable source (BIASED, but reliable) and the quote used is quite accurate, "Creationists claim there is evidence of a widespread discrimination..." etc etc.. As much as I hate to admit it, based on Misplaced Pages's rules, the edit should be allowed. I personally think young Earth creationists are completely irrational and only look at the evidence that they choose to see, and choose to ignore any evidence that contradicts their own claims, but all that being said, according to Misplaced Pages rules the edit should remain. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Let me just point out that this article is already longer than the article on evolution.Rick Norwood (talk) 14:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This isn't really notable and thereby not worth including in such a long article. Any fringe group, for example, homeopathy advocates or Hollow Earth proponents, can (and many do) claim discrimination as the reason their ideas aren't widely accepted. Overwhelmingly, though, these ideas are fringe and non-notable; they shouldn't and aren't treated as equally valid to genuine scientific objections to the theories in question. This seems no different. Rwenonah (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Rwenonah but as I stated previously, I am quite biased. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the question here is whether such claims of discrimination are discussed in non-creationist sources. It is par for the course for proponents of fringe ideas to claim discrimination, but little weight needs to be attached to them unless they are reported elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

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