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Revision as of 21:16, 15 July 2006

Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe

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AfD submitted by Byrgenwulf with comment "Added an article, will discuss it right away." This is a procedural nomination - my own opinion is Neutral. See also the article's Talk page. Tevildo 14:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This theory is not a generally recognised notable scientific theory. It doesn't meet Misplaced Pages policy for notability for scientific theories, not having been published in a proper scientific journal.

Moreover, the way it is written is almost completely unintelligible, with too much jargon that is unique to the theory the article is meant to explain.

See the article's talk page for the concerns that have been raised and the manner in which they have been handled. Edits attempting to "fix" it are simply reverted by ardent proponents of the theory.

So far as I am aware, this is not the first time either that this article has come up for deletion. However, I do believe that the proponents should be given the opportunity to respond. So over to the community!

• Update I was right, in fact this article was deleted before, for similar reasons, and was re-introduced with a hyphen in the name so as to bypass Misplaced Pages policy. See this record of the process. What happens now? Is this spam, since nothing has changed materially since the last deletion?--Byrgenwulf 14:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I belive the article becomes a candidate for Speedy Deltion. Best to ask an admin. Jefffire 14:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Where do I find one of those? Byrgenwulf 14:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You just do I suppose... I'll ask one on your behalf.

Since there isn't anyone who remember the original, we can't be sure it is a direct recreation under the Speedy Deletion criterion. However, it is likey that this will count against it in the current AfD. Doesn't seem worth the effort basicaly as the article will probably get deleted anyway. Jefffire 14:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The deleted article was insufficiently referenced and contained only a few paragraphs, none of which were reproduced in the new article. Since the articles were not "substantially identical", the recreation of deleted material criterion does not apply. The current title includes a hyphen because the name of the theory includes a hyphen; see The Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe: A New Kind of Reality Theory. The deleted title was incorrect. Tim Smith 16:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I'm not sure what the etiquette/norm is here but obviously my own view should be obvious: Delete --Byrgenwulf 14:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It's generally advisable to make it explicit in an AfD that's likely to contain a lot of text, as this one already does. :) Tevildo 15:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• NBAnyone reading slurs on my personal character here is asked to please read the discussion on the talk page, which should help put things in a bit more perspective.--Byrgenwulf 11:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment My original approach was to try to edit the article. However, Asmodeus, DrL and others simply reverted absolutely every attempt to try to make it more legible and balanced, even referenced concerns, as being "vandalism". As they made the article completely uneditable, and even removed tags saying that there was a dispute about quality/neutrality/factual accuracy (when it was empirically obvious there was a dispute like that), this seemed the next logical move: that article is being used as a soapbox. In my sandbox is an alternative, more balanced article following the usual layout for these "disputed theories": if you have suggestions, do add them to my talk page. --Byrgenwulf 10:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Bergenwulf, there are a lot of people interested in the CTMU. Take false and unsubstantiated accusations (e.g., "socks") to the discussion page (or, more appropriately, to the trash). Your attempts to "edit" the article began with the insertion of links to "pseudoscience" and "crank" and escalated to attempts to equate the CTMU with "Creationism". When the other editors wanted you to slow down and discuss changes, you balked (after all that might have taken hours as opposed to seconds) and threatened to call in the moderators. When the moderators didn't respond to your editing emergency quickly enough and you were thwarted in your attempts to insert your anti-Creationist platform (into an article that has nothing to do with Creationism), you threatened to nominate the page for deletion. Interestingly, you started out by saying the article belonged in Misplaced Pages, just needed a few changes (according to you). So clearly you have used this Misplaced Pages procedure in a totally coercive manner and because you were unsuccessful with regard to both the speed and content of your anticipated wholesale changes, we now have this page and this debate. DrL 11:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who wishes to see the sordid details of this petty little saga is more than welcome to review the history, and the talk pages, of the CTMU, and count how many times I mentioned "creationism" (none). I did go in heavy-handed at first, but I rapidly toned it down. But, as usual, we aren't debating the theory, we are debating the article. My major complaint is that "disputed" tags were just removed, on the grounds that they were "vandalism", and not an empirically true description of a state of affairs. This is soapboxing, and an attempt to take out the fly swatter to squelch critics (a metaphor Langan once used about those who disagree with the CTMU). Why not address the article itself, DrL, instead of me? Do you deny that it is in need of revision? Moreover, while at first I thought the article did merit inclusion, my subsequent reading of Misplaced Pages policy, guidelines, etc., as well as a consideration of the popular press attention (focusing on Langan, not his "theory") has convinced me otherwise.BTW: should this and DrL's comment not be moved to the talk page as well? I'll leave that to someone more experience than I.--Byrgenwulf 11:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete -->

• Still Neutral. As philosophy, it's just warmed-over Neoplatonism that ignores the past 2000 years of metaphysical thought, but our duty as editors is not to assess it as philosophy, but as an encyclopaedia article. It _does_ assert the notability of the subject adequately, although more than one link to the claimed plethora of media articles and interviews would help. It's rather too POV at the moment, but deletion is not a solution to that problem - see Orcadian for a similar example. The article needs a lot of work by a neutral editor, but I think it's entitled to stay. Tevildo 15:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Response If you actually think that the CTMU is "nothing but warmed over Neoplatonism", Tevildo, then you obviously have a few holes in your knowledge of philosophy. Similarly, if you think that the CTMU ignores 2000 years of progress in metaphysics, then you should have concentrated a bit more when reading Langan's paper(s). As you probably know, you couldn't even begin to coherently justify either of these assertions. By making this kind of sweeping, unwarranted statement here and now, you're merely encouraging others to vote down an article whose only crime is that it takes a bit of honest effort to understand. By the way, the disputed article contained plenty of links confirming notability and verifiability; they've simply been disputed and tampered with by those who don't appreciate their content. ABC News, Popular Science...come on, give us a break. Either those are reputable sources, or Misplaced Pages is really just an appendage of academia which limits its sources to a small set of journals under direct academic control. I don't think that's the case, and if you reflect on it for a moment, I think you'll have to agree with me. (If I'm wrong, please quote the Misplaced Pages policy statement that effects this limitation - I've looked hard and can't find it.) Asmodeus 20:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment I will concede that no student of philosophy can put together an argument against the ad lapidem, so will decline your implied offer. This AfD is too long anyway. I would still urge, however, everyone who reads it to take into account all the opinions expressed, and make their judgement accordingly. Tevildo 21:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Response I think one of the biggest problems with CTMU is that the bombastic and needlessly sesquipedalian language in which it's worded does lend credence to the theory. However, it seems most of the criticism of the theory arises from this single complaint, which says nothing of the theory's validity. Regardless, it has garnered considerable media attention and is certainly noteworthy in that respect. Furthermore, the Misplaced Pages article provides an overview of the theory which is free of the needlessly sesquipedalian language, and in that respect I also find the article useful. Those who wish to criticize the theory should create a "Criticism" section, not simply request to delete the article. Tarcieri 07:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as gibberish. I couldn't make heads or tails of it, and the few fragments that seemed coherent enough to read and not statements singing the praise of the inventor were incorrect ("all meaningful theories conform to 2-valued logic" overlooks fuzzy logic, "the axioms and theorems of 2-valued logic are tautological" overlooks Gödel's incompleteness theorems if I understand correctly). If the popular press links are valid, they also should be linked from the relevant press sites in any rewrite, not the invetor's mirror. --Christopher Thomas 15:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable sophistical gibberish. Badly written to boot. Jefffire 15:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Do Not Delete - The Misplaced Pages article entitled "Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe" (CTMU) is subject to ongoing vandalism, largely by one highly dedicated person (and now by others).

Christopher Langan and his theory, the CTMU, have been the recipients of extensive media coverage. Sources include ABC News, Esquire Magazine, Popular Science, and other journalistic periodicals and television documentaries which seriously investigate and employ fact-checkers regarding the material they cover. Both Langan and the CTMU were featured in virtually every instance. The CTMU is a complex, and in my opinion valid, theory. While some laymen complain that they cannot understand the CTMU, there is no reason to believe that this does not owe at least in part to their own negative attitudes and low level of expertise in its subject matter (logic and metaphysics, with broad implications regarding science in general). While there is no expert consensus on the CTMU, neither has it been found wanting. The theory has been out there for a number of years and is therefore eligible for peer review; if this has thus far been inadequate, that is certainly not the fault of the theory or its author, and does not detract from the theory itself.

The editor calling himself "Byrgenwulf" appears to be negatively obsessed with Christopher Langan and the CTMU. What began as an offhand attempt to tar the CTMU and its author with misdirected, unverifiable and decidedly non-neutral epithets like "pseudoscience" and "crank" has now seemingly escalated into a full-time vendetta, to the extent that one wonders where Byrgenwulf finds the time to eat and sleep. He appears to have no understanding of Misplaced Pages policy; even when various aspects of this policy are patiently explained to him, he attempts to restore past edits, or rewordings thereof, which have already been found in violation.

Although Byrgenwulf has repeatedly claimed that he could effortlessly rip the CTMU to shreds were he so-inclined, he has been caught red-handed in a number of critical errors regarding that theory; and although he claims to have thoroughly read Langan's paper in PCID, he has boldly denied that it contains things which it can be plainly seen to contain (sometimes after falsely stating that he has carefully searched for them). Unfortunately, he appears immune to the sort of embarrassment that anyone else would feel under similar circumstances, merely redoubling his destructive efforts in retaliation. In short, he seems to have no idea what the CTMU is, what it does, how it does it, or for that matter why it doesn't do it (if that is indeed the case), and perhaps for these very reasons, appears hell-bent on sabotaging its Misplaced Pages entry.

As I understand it, Misplaced Pages does not consider this to be acceptable behavior for its contributors. I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know that I have better things to do than ride this article 24/7 to keep Byrgenwulf from corrupting it, and to reverse the falsehoods, innuendos, and accusations he nevertheless manages to plant in it against Misplaced Pages policy. It seems to me that if the Misplaced Pages moderators were to read this discussion and explore the history of edits, they would quickly verify the truth of everything I've just written, and deal with Byrgenwulf and his accomplices as they deserve. But meanwhile, in apparent denial of this very possibility, Byrgenwulf persists.

Needless to say, the personal misgivings and bad feelings of Byrgenwulf et al are not enough to justify repetitive attacks against an accurate, legitimate, and informative Misplaced Pages entry. And now, to make matters worse, after Byrgenwulf has tallied a string of edits the likes of which Misplaced Pages has seldom seen, we have an additional flurry of negative edits, dispute tags, and so on, claiming that, for example, ABC News - which repeatedly ran a 20-minute segment on Langan and his theory - is an "unverifiable source". Such protestations are utterly ridiculous. It seems that a tiny handful of critics (or sockpuppets, or fellow travelers trying to strike a blow for their pet philosophy, or whomever) have taken it upon themselves to change history, declare all of Langan's media coverage one big "unreliable source", pretend that the CTMU was not mentioned in those articles and television segments, and so on ad nauseam.

This article was carefully reviewed for verifiability and NPOV well prior to Byrgenwulf's initial incursion. It was one of the best sources for a lucid overall introduction to a unique and arguably very promising theory which has nothing whatsoever to do with Creationism or "Intelligent Design Creationism" but merely had the misfortune to be published in an ID-sympathetic journal. In fact, as its author states, the theory was intended to give both sides of the evolution debate a common framework for ultimate reconciliation, something which is very badly, and very obviously, needed by all concerned.

I therefore vote for NON-deletion, and request that the moderators do something about the situation ... preferably sooner rather than later. DrL 15:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment DrL has only edited the CTMU article, its talk page, this AfD, the article on the CTMU's inventor and a couple pages directly related to him. Anville 18:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please note that I did not edit the CTMU page prior to Byrgenwulf's initial vandalism. DrL 11:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. WP:SOAP seems to apply here, apparently. Tevildo 15:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Do Not Delete - Do not delete this page, DrL I think you are by and large correct however if you carfully read the paper by Langan he expressly includes intellegent design as an interesting implication of his theory and Langan is a fellow of an intellegent design movement.--IQ Prophet 16:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment user has only edited this article, its talk page and this AfD. Anville 18:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as non-notable theory, confusing as heck. --Merovingian (T, C, @) 16:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, non-notable confusing fringe science gibberish. And before the nominator started editing it, incidentally, it already was gibberish. Sandstein 16:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - DO NOT DELETE The CTMU is a valuable intellectual contribution which has been erroneously, and in my opinion foolishly, targeted for attack on philosophical and opinionative grounds. It's not easy to understand without the proper background, but that means absolutely nothing, since the same can be said of many of the other legitimate theories covered in Misplaced Pages. For anyone who knows the relevant technical fields, it displays adequate conceptual integrity - probably far more than the vast majority of what one encounters in the paradox-ridden field of analytic philosophy and the modern philosophy of science - and is unquestionably unique in both form and application. On the other hand, if you can't understand it, then why not do everybody a favor and leave it up for those who can? Asmodeus 16:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Please refrain from personal attacks - WP:NPA refers. Whatever Byrgenwulf's professional qualifications may be, his views appear to be shared by most of the other contributors to this AfD to date. Tevildo 17:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

CommentUser:Asmodeus has likewise only edited the CTMU article and articles relating to its inventor and his high IQ society.--Byrgenwulf 19:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete hand-wavy claptrap of the first order. -- GWO

• Keep - Do Not Delete - Its controversial nature is already noted in the article itself, and the text of the article reinforces this notice through the use of Langan's name throughout it. I don't know why the author's carefulness with regard to highlighting the controversial status of the CTMU through the body of the article itself should be held up as a strike against both it and him. What has not been noted in the argument over this article is whether or not Progress In Information, Complexity And Design is a peer reviewed journal, regardless of what institute publishes it. If McDonald's, for whatever reason, began publishing a peer-reviewed journal of mathematics, its mathematical contents would still be peer-reviewed. I don't know why complaints which amount to a request for recategorization have to take the form of a motion for deletion. As far as the jargon issue is concerned, the external links should supply the needed information. I would, however, advise that the link to the "20/20" interview be removed, as its text is somewhat inconsistent with the content of the CTMU itself. --Danielmryan 18:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment User's only edit. Tevildo 17:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Response Thanks for the note. I included that advice as a constructive suggestion which, I hope, would add to comprehension of the article in dispute. (I'll leave the next iteration of the chorusing to Joywords.) -- Danielmryan 19:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
      • How does the theory explain sockpuppets? JChap (Talk) 16:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• To quote Alan Sokal, "As a physicist, I am not impressed." Delete as soapbox-standing, probable OR and vanity. Anville 17:46, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Clearly the piece is openly a hypothesis and intelligent people can read and make up their own mind about its relevance or cogency. Enough people find it cogent and relevant enough to warrant its insertion. I vote not to delete it and to let time be the ultimate vote, i.e. the amount of attention it actually gets from serious people about the themes presented in his work.joywords --Joywords 18:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment User's only edit. (Seems to be a bit of a "repeat chorus" situation today, doesn't it?) Anville 18:29, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete NN pseudoscientific theory, of little use to the reader of an encyclopedia. The appropriate place for this proposal and resulting discourse is in the scientific literature or the pseudoscientific literature as the case may be. The press coverage alone does not make it ntoable.--Nick Y. 19:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The proposed notability criterion for non-mainstream theories requires reference in only one mainstream publication, explicitly allowing "large-circulation newspapers or magazines". The CTMU easily passes, having appeared in Popular Science (circulation of 1.45 million subscribers; readership of more than 7 million), Newsday (circulation in the hundreds of thousands), The Times (hundreds of thousands of copies sold daily), on 20/20 (averages millions of viewers per week), and elsewhere. It is this level of high-profile exposure which makes the CTMU notable, and which makes an encyclopedia article of use to the many readers introduced to the theory through these sources. Tim Smith 02:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Lacks verifiability. There are only two types of "references" in this article: (1) those pointing to Langan-owned (megafoundation, CTMU) sites, Langan-edited/archived (Noesis) sites, or Langan-is-a-"fellow"-of-an-organization-who,-like-Langan,-has-a-creationist-agenda (ISCID/PCID) sites; and (2) pop-culture periodicals that focus on a weight lifter with a big brain, and not his CTMU "theory." I don't believe Misplaced Pages policy counts The Sunday Telegraph, 20/20, Muscle & Fitness, or even Popular Science as proper fora for cosmologist peer reviews. --Blaine Steinert 20:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. To present the CTMU as correct, we would indeed need references of other than these two types. The question at hand, though, is not whether we are to assert the theory, but whether we are to describe it. To verifiably and justifiably describe the CTMU here, we need references to (1) its claims, and (2) its notability. The references in the article satisfy these requirements: Langan's writings provide his claims, and the mainstream media coverage establishes notability. (Popular Science focuses here specifically on the CTMU, and other articles describe both Langan and his theory.) Tim Smith 22:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Hogwash.
    Mr. Smith, you stated, "The question at hand... is ... whether we are to describe it." Only if it is something notable, which apparently it is not (see big, red letters below). Misplaced Pages is clear that it is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. I might describe my grandmother's theory of Quasars, and she might have even been featured in Bluehair & Fitness Magazine, but that hardly makes her ideas Wiki-worthy.
  • THE POPSCI ARTICLE SEEMS TO BE A FORGERY
    Mr. Smith, you (and the CTMU article) seem to rely heavily on the PopSci article "Wise Guy," by John R. Quain. But something fishy is going on here: The "archived" PopSci piece - ostensibly the best Langan-independent citation (read: the only reference to an outside "scientific" periodical) - is quite different from the actual, archived article. As you know, archived web pages from the Wayback Machine have been deemed as admissible in court, so I tend to think the Wayback Machine's archived version of the PopSci piece is what PopSci actually printed, and the megafoudnation-version of this PopSci piece has been manipulated.
    Briefly, the real "Wise Guy" article makes no mention of "Robert Seitz, a physicist and former NASA executive," who "admits that he 'doesn't fully understand Langan's theory,'" and who goes on to say Langan is "'perhaps the smartest individual'" he's ever met. Indeed, the real "Wise Guy" article does not even refer to the CTMU. It does, interestingly, recount Langan's interest in The_chicken_or_the_egg dilemma. Pretty interesting, eh, Asmodeus? --Blaine Steinert 18:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
  • NOTE: THERE ARE TWO POPSCI ARTICLES THAT APPEARED IN THE SAME ISSUE - ONE IS AN ARTICLE, THE OTHER IS AN INTERVIEW - NEITHER ARE FORGERIES Please be more careful. DrL 18:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. As DrL says, the Popular Science coverage consisted of two parts, both archived by the Wayback Machine , both stored on megafoundation.org , and both linked from ctmu.org. One part interviews Langan; the other part focuses specifically on his theory. As I documented below, other sources also give prominent, attention-getting placement to the theory. Indeed, the CTMU easily meets the proposed notability guideline for non-mainstream theories, which requires only that they be referenced in a mainstream publication, explicitly allowing "large-circulation newspapers or magazines". Again, the question is not whether the theory is sufficiently correct to be asserted, but whether it is sufficiently notable to be described, factually and neutrally. With circulations in the hundreds of thousands or millions, the mainstream media in which the CTMU has appeared establish that notability. Tim Smith 19:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Apparently notable only among creationist pseudo-intellectuals. Possibly could be merged to Creation science? But, no, they probably wouldn't want it either. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom. Dlyons493 Talk 20:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The CTMU has received extensive coverage in the mainstream media, including Popular Science , 20/20 , The Times, Newsday, Esquire, and even Muscle & Fitness! Remember, the question here is not whether the theory is correct—that's not for Misplaced Pages to decide—but whether it is notable. The relevant notability criterion is that "non-mainstream theories should be referenced in at least one major mainstream publication", explicitly allowing "large-circulation newspapers or magazines". Since the CTMU has been referenced in many such publications, it is notable and deserves an article: not to assert its claims as truth, but to describe them accurately and neutrally. Tim Smith 20:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment on a few issues here. Claiming that the CTMU is philosophy and not science is an attempt to hedge the issue. It is not the case that "science" has standards while "philosophy" is a wishy-washy field where anything goes. The CTMU claims to be a theory of everything (a physical concept), and claims to offer a new interpretation of quantum mechanics, and has a notion of "conspansion" which contradicts much of what the mainstream scientific and philosophic community acknowledges relativity to be. Moreover, all the popular press articles are about Langan, the originator of the concept, not the CTMU itself. They may mention the theory, but they are not about it. As such, these articles and references can be put on Langan's bio page. And besides, the nomination has nothing to do with whether the CTMU is philosophy, sophistry, science or pseudoscience. It is about the article as it appears here, and whether or not it is an encyclopaedic article.--Byrgenwulf 21:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Response to Comment Caveat emptor. Byrgenwulf needs to tell the truth for a change - he attacked the article, and proposed this vote, because he's an anti-ID fanatic who baselessly disputes the content and quality of the CTMU, a theory which he doesn't even begin to understand. There's a record of this on the discussion page, where Byrgenwulf fraudulently intimated that he is a professional philosopher of physics and then proceeded to make elementary errors that no expert in that field could possibly make, and which have now been seriously compounded. In fact, the article IS encyclopedic, or at least was before Byrgenwulf took it upon himself to monkey it up. Indeed, it had been carefully reworded to comply with NPOV and was provided with all of the verifiable source material it needed. All that Byrgenwulf is doing here is attempting to win the game, and get rid of the article, by propagating pathetic misconceptions about science and philosophy that a freshman in English Lit wouldn't lay claim to, thereby polluting the air and muddying the waters as is evidently his habit. (Anyone who thinks that Byrgenwulf knows the first thing about philosophy or science, let alone Misplaced Pages policy, need merely take a stroll up this page to be disabused.) As far as Byrgenwulf's specific comments on the CTMU, conspansion, and theories of eveything are concerned, forget about them - he has repeatedly been shown not to understand the first thing about the CTMU or anything related to it. Asmodeus 01:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: The "relevant policy" noted here is not policy - it is a proposed guideline, which is not finished and does not yet have the support of Misplaced Pages editors. The pseudotheory is also not referenced in any serious and reputable scientific journal, by the way. --Philosophus 08:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. There are plenty of references. Zos 21:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Having references doesn't affect the other reasons to delete. Having "references" is standard procedure for pseudoscience that is trying to confuse people by blurring the lines. Not that being pseudoscience is necessarily a reason to delete either.--Nick Y. 00:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response There aren't any "other reasons" to delete. The CTMU isn't science; it's philosophy. Therefore, it can't be coherently labeled as "pseudoscience". It's really just that simple. Furthermore, nobody here is in a position to enforce any particular set of "lines" just because he personally fears that those lines, wherever and whatever they are, may become "blurred". Things can't always remain simple just because somebody wants them to be, particularly with regard to matters of high inherent complexity. Asmodeus 01:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment, someone please remove all of these comments and responses to this nom's talk page. I can barely make out what all the fuss is about. And to let others who wish this article kept, please replace your "do not delete" with Keep. This makes it clearer for others. Zos 21:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete good god what a lot of blather. This is totally meaningless nonsense. Opabinia regalis 00:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Nonsensical and nonnotable mixture of pseudophysics and pseudophilosophy. My main way of deciding notability on articles on non-completely-insane pseudotheory (this excludes Time Cube, which is treated as notable nonsense) is to see whether the references allow one to create an article that satisfies NOR and NPOV at the same time. If the pseudoscientific theory does not have reputable refutations or notable critics when it obviously should, it does not deserve an article. Yoshiaki Omura is notable because he has notable and reputable critics, for example. This does not. The main claim to notability seems to be popular articles articles about the person rather than the pseudotheory. We should delete this, and redirect to the person. --Philosophus 04:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The Misplaced Pages article describing the CTMU has proved useful to me as a neutral source of information since the time it was originally contributed. --Convolution 06:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• New user's first and only edit. --Philosophus 08:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. As far as I can tell those who want to delete the article want to because of their views on the CTMU itself and not whether it is sufficiently notable. The Popular Science article cited appears to be on the CTMU and not on Langan himself. It even includes a quote by a physicist and former NASA executive who (without passing judgement on its veracity) considers the theory worthy of "serious and open-minded review". While I have reservations on a theory presented in such a jargonized manner, many accepted theories have been presented in that fashion, too, unless or until someone good at explaining the theory comes along (a la Schwinger versus Feynman on QED). The CTMU may turn out to be total garbage, but it has received sufficient press and is a significant part of a high-IQ subculture surrounding Langan. Tox 07:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• That article is titled "Wise Guy"! It is a less-than-two-page article mainly about the person and his theory. It is not an article about the theory, such as one might see in a serious journal, like one of the Physical Reviews. This is nothing like QED: it hasn't shown up anywhere in the legitimate scientific community, or any any reputable journal. It only has a handful of popular articles that, if they are not mostly about the person, are initially started because of the novelty of the person's IQ. The opinion of an ex-NASA "executive" who appears to be involved with the person somehow ("the smartest guy I ever met") doesn't really make the subject notable. The fact that the "executive" apparently doesn't merit his own Misplaced Pages article and doesn't show up in the first few pages of Google results makes me question the word usage of Popular Science writers, and makes the support even less important. --Philosophus 08:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep The mainstream media attention that CTMU has garnered alone should justify for keeping it. I don't know why the people suggesting it be deleted say it should be treated with the rigors of a scientific theory. It's a philosophical construct, and one which has been published in Popular Science and other magazines. There's plenty of crank theories in Misplaced Pages, like Terrence McKenna's Novelty Theory, which wouldn't be considered for deletion simply because they've had such an impact on popular culture. I personally believe Langan is onto something huge with CTMU. Others may not... so, how about editing the article, chaps? That's how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. Joegoodbud 09:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. The mainstream media attention has been directed at Mr Langan himself (mainly due to the incongruity between his IQ-test scores and his line of work), not to his theory. I agree that he, as a person, deserves a Misplaced Pages article, but not that his theory is notable in its own right. The existing description of the theory at Christopher Michael Langan might be capable of slight expansion (emphasis on _slight_), but I don't believe it deserves its own article, especially when any attempts to edit that article are repeatedly over-ruled by certain individual(s) who seem bent on preventing it reaching an unbiased state. If the version of the article on Byrgenwulf's user page could be safely used, then, although I would still regard the article as superfluous, I would have no objection to its retention. However, I don't believe that we can ensure its integrity. Tevildo 11:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. While I appreciate your mediating tone, Telvido, I'd like to emphasize a couple of things. First, I've been watching the CTMU article since it first appeared and have seen it go back and forth and find its way to a reasonable middle before Bergenwulf appeared. I don't believe I had ever bothered to make an edit prior to that.

Byrgenwulf's first edits were "admittedly over the top" (his words) and made for a poor entrance, leading other editors to believe his motives were political and less than sincere. I did delete many of his edits but mainly because he was pushing them through too quickly. I repeatedly asked him to slow down and discuss edits on the Talk page first and indeed thought we were negotiating changes to the Controversy section, but I guess we weren't moving quickly enough (it was taking hours as opposed to seconds). He is not the only editor on Misplaced Pages and should know enough about Misplaced Pages etiquette to negotiate changes more slowly and reasonably with the other editors and readers. He only came upon the page, and Langan's work, a few days ago. Shouldn't one spend a little time absorbing the material before editing any article on Misplaced Pages?

What you are suggesting (that the article be retained but it be Byrgenwulf's edit) is coercive, whether or not you mean it that way. While some clean-up may be in order there was not much wrong with the article as it stood when Byrgenwulf came on the scene (or, indeed, when Tim Smith originally posted it). Further, Byrgenwulf's version is misleading on many points. For example:

It is categorized under "pseudophysics" and "pseudoscience". This makes about as much sense as categorizing a Brahms concerto as pseudoscience because it doesn’t follow the "scientific method". The CTMU is a logical model that is not claiming to be empirical science. Such categorization is designed to lower the perceived credibility of the work.

"The CTMU has close ties to the Intelligent Design movement." Here, "close ties" implies political involvement and I see no evidence of that. What I see is an openness on the part of ISCID toward Langan's ideas and a response to that from Langan by submitting his material for publication. After all, he may perceive himself cut off from mainstream academic venues due to his lack of degrees and see ISCID and PCID as an opportunity for at least some level of peer-review. If you read his chapter in Uncommon Dissent, he clearly criticizes aspects of both ID and strict neoDarwinism (mostly in terms of limits of interpretation).

"While not being of quite the same order as the time-cube, the CTMU can nonetheless be categorised as pseudoscience." By even putting a concept in the same sentence as "time-cube", you are eroding credibility. Again, the CTMU is erroneously categorized as pseudoscience.

"This is an intelligent design journal, the content and nature of which has been the subject of a large amount of criticism by mainstream scientists, including in US courts. This is because these scientists feel that the journal lacks impartiality and rigour in its editorial policies. As such, any paper published in this journal cannot be regarded as being part of established scientific thought.."

The fact that PCID is an ID journal is fair enough for inclusion but this rant against intelligent design journals should be contained in the article on PCID or ISCID, not here! This proposed text links to two footnotes featuring anti-Creationism material. What on Earth is that doing here? The CTMU has nothing to do with "Creationism". In fact, I would expect that Creationists might not care for the CTMU at all. I feel that Byrgenwulf's motives are political. His dogged insistence on the inclusion of these two articles is odd and it almost seems as if he has been given this material along with instructions to push it whenever he has the opportunity.

These are some of the most glaring errors and the points I was hoping to be able to negotiate with Bergenwulf. It would be nice if they could be fixed, but I expect that there is an underlying political agenda here so I don't hold out much hope. DrL

Railing against a single editor will no change the result of an AfD. I suggest that you clearly and concisely list your points, then wait. Jefffire 13:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - one person's theory, not in any way in contact with academic reserach. --Pjacobi 13:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response Who cares how many people wrote it, or whether it is "in contact with academic reserach"? If you want to read about things that are "in contact with academic reserach", you should subscribe to academic journals. Misplaced Pages is not an appendage of academia, and the CTMU nowhere relies on "contact with academic reserach" to make its points. Please, let's keep our eyes on the ball here. Asmodeus 15:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Misplaced Pages is also not an indescriminate store of knowledge. The charge is that the subject is non-notable, as per the notability policy. Jefffire 15:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response But notability has already clearly been satisfied in the form of verifiable sources like ABC News and Popular Science. This is nothing but a flimsy charade undertaken by you and one or two others to remove the article because you don't like its subject matter, on the grounds that it has not been published in academic journals. You seem to think that Misplaced Pages is an appendage of academia, and you're simply mistaken. Don't muddy the water.

• Merge with Christopher Michael Langan. The other isues like the pseudoscientific aspects and the fact that it is not noteable can be addressed later. Count Iblis 14:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response This contains a terminological error. The CTMU never claimed to be "science"; therefore, it cannot be coherently labeled as "pseudoscience" (this issue is discussed in more detail on this page and in the discussion area). By its nature, it is philosophical. Ample proof of its notability has been duly provided. Asmodeus 16:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You're in error, Asmodeus. Here's how Langan describe his "theory" in |this essay:

A cross between John Archibald Wheeler’s Participatory Universe and the Stephen Hawking-James Hartle "imaginary time" theory of cosmology proposed in Hawking’s phenomenal book A Brief History of Time, the CTMU resolves many of the most intractable paradoxes known to physical science while explaining recent data which indicate that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate.

. This seems to indicate that it is cosmology: philosophy doesn't deal in expanding universes or "conspansion", really. And, a bit of a slip up here, the Hawking-Hartle model wasn't "proposed" in Hawking's pop science book, but in Phys. Rev. D28, 2960 (1983). Byrgenwulf 18:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The mainstream media coverage is about both the person and the theory, and features the theory prominently. The Times, for example, begins its article (Wigmore, Barry (February 7, 2000); "Einstein's brain, King Kong's body") with:

Every age has its great thinkers: Plato looked at metaphysics, ethics, and politics; Descartes tried to rebuild human knowledge; Bertrand Russell gave us mathematical logic; from Stephen Hawking came A Brief History of Time. Now there's Chris Langan, the brainy bouncer, with his Cognition-Theoretic Model of the Universe.

20/20 uses the theory as a framing device:

...I found arguably the smartest person in America in eastern Long Island. His name is Christopher Langan and he’s working on his masterpiece: a mathematical, philosophical manuscript, with a radical view of the universe.

The Popular Science header says:

He's a working class guy with an IQ that's off the charts. What does he have to say about science? Everything -- a theory of everything, that is.

The caption of the article's photo reads:

Christopher Langan spends his downtime coming up with a solution to a problem that philosophers and scientists have pondered for thousands of years.

So the CTMU has not just been "referenced in at least one major mainstream publication" as the proposed notability guideline for non-mainstream theories requires, explicitly allowing "large-circulation newspapers or magazines", but has received prominent, attention-getting placement in many such publications, with circulations in the hundreds of thousands or millions. It deserves its own article. Tim Smith 16:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment A small number of overhyped headlines do not constitute notability. Jefffire 16:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment So, the mainstream media coverage (which says vanishingly little about the content of the "theory" itself) still calls this theory science, despite the claims of the dramatic chorus. Anville 17:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. As visible above, Popular Science says the theory is about science, not that it is science. Philosophy is allowed to be about science; that's philosophy of science. 20/20 explicitly calls the theory philosophical. Tim Smith 21:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete The mainstream media no doubt like the Good Will Hunting angle to this, but this is still an emerging theory and all the work on it is centered on one man. Misplaced Pages has articles on pseudo-scientific and fringe theories like creationism, but as of now there is no reason for there to be a separate article on the theory. It can be discussed in the article about the man himself. JChap (Talk) 16:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

From the 20/20 piece: "The more he talked, the more Christopher reminded me of that character Matt Damon played in the movie 'Good Will Hunting,' a brilliant guy who almost slipped between the cracks. That's Christopher’s story too." Read that how you will. . . . Anville 17:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per the obscurity of the idea. Misplaced Pages is not a storehouse for every flight-of-fancy made by every random individual. --ScienceApologist 16:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment The idea is not obscure; you simply weren't reading the right sources. If you were asked to prove that Langan is a "random individual" or the CTMU "a flight of fancy", you could not offer a single verifiable source. In fact, you'd find material indicating that Langan is decidedly non-random - indeed, several deviations above the mean in intelligence - and that there are clearly written, publicly available papers regarding the CTMU. You would also find reportage on Langan and the CTMU from verifiable sources like ABC News and Popular Science.

You are taking part in an editorial process here and are bound by Misplaced Pages policy. By casting this vote, you have failed to meet your editorial burden regarding neutrality and verifiability. If this encyclopedia is such that content can be kept or removed on the basis of unverifiable and counterfactual opinion and innuendo, then it is founded on "truth by democracy". Since that's an insupportable concept, Misplaced Pages would have no good reason to exist. For the sake of Misplaced Pages and its users, I hope that's not the case. Asmodeus 17:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - As long as the article properly qualifies the CTMU, I see no reason to delete it. Granted, Misplaced Pages is not the place for original thought, but this article is only summarizing and paraphrasing what has already been published in other sources. It is not promoting original ideas on its own. It's not as if anyone is going to read an article on the CTMU unless they follow a link to the article, and links to the article will only appear in other Misplaced Pages articles as relevance and notoriety dictate. Deleting the article only means that those seeking to understand the CTMU will have one less resource on the internet. Per contra, keeping the article does not force anyone to accept the ideas of the CTMU, which seems to be the fear of some editors. --Wechselstrom 18:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• DELETE as per the revelation of the PopSci forgery. Tsk tsk! You'd figure a wise guy wouldn't be so reckless with his forged archives.

Something tells me a fat dude on Long Island is having a tough time keeping track of all his sockpuppets! LOL Keglined 18:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response Just thought I'd tell everyone that Keglined here is lying about the PopSci article being a forgery - as explained above, PopSci actually thought so much of Langan that its Editors included both an article AND an interview on him and the CTMU! (Hey, Keglined - why don't you go and brush up your jealous edits regarding the penis sizes of porn stars Peter North and John "Johnny Wadd" Holmes? Or maybe just watch some more porn...heh heh!) Asmodeus 19:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• How very unimaginative of you, Chris - you assume I'm a guy. OH, and I just looked at the wayback machine stuff - there is NO record of the "other" popular science article. Sorry, Chris/Asmodeus/Dr L/whoever else you need to pretend to be - your charlatan hide has been exposed!!!  ;) Keglined 19:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Response I guess you must be talking to me? (In the future, please address me properly - it's "Asmodeus".) Again, you're either a liar, or too stupid to look in your local library for the article. You see, not every article in PopSci makes it onto the web, or stays on the web, and the wayback machine is still buggy, as many know who have used it. (Popular Science, October, 2001; an archived copy of the article is linked from several Misplaced Pages entries.) Now why don't you go and glue your sorry little nose, male or female as it may be, to a porn video featuring the penises of your favorite porn stars? ROTFLMAO! Asmodeus 19:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No stretch of the imagination could make such statements appear civil. Anville 19:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, one has to note the irony: Asmodeus was the daemon of lust. And in Paradise Lost, Milton wrote of him that he has a "fishy odour". Byrgenwulf 19:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Holy Megalomania, Batman... 52 Times!

It’s a Vanity Article
Misplaced Pages: “Vanity information... can come in the form of an entire article... Such information usually detracts from the direct illumination of the central topic of any article.”
The CTMU article seems to focus more on Langan than the CTMU itself. In fact, the word “Langan” appears 52 times throughout the article; "CTMU" only 34. A quick check of other Misplaced Pages articles shows this figure is highly unusual: “Twain” appears in Huckleberry Finn 14 times; “Gates” in Microsoft 27 times; “Hawking” in Hawking Radiation 21 times; “Einstein” 19 times in Special Relativity; and the word “Darwin” appears in Evolution 12 times. Pathetically, in the CTMU article, each of the words “for,” “as,” and “in” appear fewer times than the word “Langan”!
Misplaced Pages: “The most significant problem with vanity articles is that they often discuss subjects that are not well-enough known for there to be multiple editors.”
Yes, there appears to be a number of sockpuppets at work here; until a couple days ago this article had but a dozen editors, four of which have in one form or another rejected the CTMU. Of the remaining eight, five (Asmodeus, CaveBat, DrL, 70.20.16.129, and 12.207.19.38) have contributed nothing to Misplaced Pages aside from edits to this article, the article on Langan himself, or references to Langan in other articles (also, it is a matter of record that Langan has published pseudonymously in the past ).

Oh yeah - delete — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.58.130.228 (talk • contribs)

• As explained, the POPSCI issue contained both an article AND an interview. Neither are forgeries. Please be responsible and don't perpetuate mistakes. If you check the history, you will see that the only reason "Langan" is mentioned so many times is that critics insisted that many statements be qualified (e.g., "Langan states ...", "Langan claims ...", etc.). Also, there are no sock puppets, so please refrain from such accusations. DrL 19:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Patent nonsense and clap-trap. linas 20:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)