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Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory. References Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136. Q5: Should studies that show that homeopathy does not work go into the article? (Yes.) A5: Yes. Studies that show that homeopathy does not work are part of a full treatment of the topic and should go into the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs. Non-experts have suggested that all the studies that show homeopathy does not work are faulty studies and are biased, but this has not been borne out by the mainstream scientific community. Q6: Should another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" be created? (No.) A6: No. Another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" should not be created. 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Homeopathy and hormesis

I have identified two papers discussing how homeopathy might actually be a subset of hormesis and how it might be able to be "integrated into mainstream biomedical assessment and clinical practice." I think it is OK to add this to the article because Human & Experimental Toxicology is a respectable journal with a decent impact factor, but I want to get some feedback on whether there is consensus on adding information sourced to these papers first. Everymorning talk to me 22:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Nope. We don't, per WP:MEDRS, base content on single primary-source articles. Where is the evidence that anyone but the authors consider these articles significant? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I thought that, since they didn't describe original research or results, then they were, in a sense, review articles and therefore were compliant with MEDRS, but evidently this may not be the case. Everymorning talk to me 02:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I think you are correct.These articles dont describe original research or results, then they are review articles and therefore are compliant with MEDRS. --Neb46545 (talk) 03:32, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Except that they are two different things, and shouldn't be conflated. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 03:39, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

They will not if one uses the sources as MEDRS dictates.--Neb46545 (talk) 03:51, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd hardly call this a 'review' - having looked at it, I'd say that 'speculation' would be a better description. It cites nothing resembling a description of any specific treatment for anything. It also seems to be based on an assumption entirely contrary to current understanding of homoeopathic 'remedies' in that it states that they operate in the low-dose range. It has been amply demonstrated that to the contrary, homoeopathic 'remedies' repeatedly diluted in the normal manner contain no 'dose' whatsoever. And regardless of whether this speculation complied with WP:MEDRS or not, we still have no evidence that anyone but the authors take the suggestion that hormesis and homeopathy are in any meaningful sense connected seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Homeopathy+and+hormesis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=SE55VP2sFMaBsQTDtIEQ&ved=0CB0QgQMwAA I think that there is evidence that "hormesis and homeopathy are in any meaningful sense connected seriously"--Neb46545 (talk) 04:45, 29 November 2014 (UTC),

Would not use, per WP:WEIGHT. I see no indication that this has been widely accepted (4 cites by google scholar, two self-cites, one self published book and one foreign language dissertation). The actual text appears to be nothing but speculation how it might work, and a "note" in one of the article stating "Some forms of homeopathy claim that clinical and biological effects occur when dilutions are made beyond Avogardro’s number. Clearly these are not hormetic effects..." basically seals the deal about how useless it is, as homeopathy generally requires high dilution past this level. Yobol (talk) 04:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Hormesis refers to low doses, homeopathy uses ZERO doses...none of the active ingredient left at all. The effect of serial dilutions is to leave (statistically) less than one molecule of the active ingredient left - ZERO amounts of it. Hormesis requires a significant amount of the substance to be present in order to trigger the reaction to it in the body without providing enough to do serious damage. If you look at the very top of our article on hormesis, there is a graph of stimulation/inhibition versus dose - and you'll note that the curve is below the line for very low doses...so even if homeopathy were to be applied in lesser dilutions where some of the active ingredient remains, hormesis would predict that it would have no effect. So, no....homeopathy isn't a "subset" - it's an entirely different thing and it's claims are actually contradictory to those of hormesis. So this is nonsense, and any suggestion otherwise is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR and doesn't bear consideration without WP:MEDRS-grade sources to back it up...which you evidently don't have. SteveBaker (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Leaving aside that those are principally speculative commentaries rather than proper review articles, and the issues with MEDRS and WP:NPOV (especially WP:WEIGHT) compliance already identified, it strikes me as immediately obvious that neither article actually draws the conclusion that homeopathy is "a subset of hormesis". In other words, even if those sources were acceptable, they wouldn't support the proposed addition to the Misplaced Pages article.

The first paper, Oberbaum et al., lists five major differences between hormesis and homeopathy in its abstract – a far-from-exhaustive list, incidentally – and then suggests (for no particularly good reason) the someone should try introducing homeopathic methods (like the magic bottle-whacking) into hormesis-based experiments to see if it can make hormesis more potent.

The second paper, Calabrese and Jonas, speculates that some fraction of homeopathic practice might work through hormesis-based effects; again, even its abstract notes that the relevant doses associated with hormesis are measurable and significant, "...unlike most forms of homeopathy." TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Jonas of course is a believer. There is a homeopathist called Joette Calabrese: I wonder if she is related to Edward of that ilk? Guy (Help!) 00:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I am tired of explaining to homeopathy believers why hormesis does not validate homoeopathy. We have an article: hormesis. Read it. Look at the graphs. Pay particular attention to what happens to the dose-response relationship as dose tends to zero. Compare and contrast this with the homeopathy claim that dilution increases potency. For bonus marks, read and understand bioavailability. Guy (Help!) 00:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

You can personally believe whatever you want about the above reviews - ( non sense etc) however they are published in high quality sources and a serious and unbiased encyclopedia should report their point of view, Not as a prominent view of course - but as something which exists in high quality scientific literature. --Neb46545 (talk) 05:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

External link

I recently added a link in the "external link" section to a BBC show. If you have an issue with this link, then please clarify an EXACT reason why it shouldn't exist in the "external link" section. 1) "too many" links isn't a valid reason, because adding a 2nd link isn't a reasonable reason. 2) not a credible source or not notable aren't valid reasons either, because it's a BBC show that uses scientific methods to test it. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 17:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:ELNO#1; the link couldn't be used to support anything not already supported by a WP:MEDRS sources already used. The possible exception is the Randi $1M prize attempt. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:45, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't see anything special about the link. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Not the webpage, the video the webpage is about... • Sbmeirow • Talk • 18:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcBHKMJDHaU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathytrans.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

Misplaced Pages Bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page is extremely biased, and partially inaccurate according to Dana Ullman in his article "Dysfunction at Misplaced Pages on Homeopathic Medicine" Huffington Post

Why has this not been fixed yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.109.173.61 (talk • contribs) 16:26, 23 December 2014 UTC (UTC)

Simply because Ullman's wrong. Read the Talk page here and its archives for enlightenment! Alexbrn 16:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages documents the mainstream scientific and medical bias against nonsense. It also documents the existence of nonsense, hence this article. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Note also that Ullman has a vested financial interest in homeopathy, and has used the Huffington Post to promote it. Mindmatrix 17:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

As an example of how misleading the Ullman article is, he/she complains about a report called "Evidence Check" issued by the Science and Technology Committee of the UK House of Commons. Ullman wrote that "'Evidence Check' was signed off by just three of the 15 members of the original committee, never discussed or endorsed by the whole UK Parliament" - but no matter how good the science in the "Evidence Check" report, it would not have been discussed or endorsed by the whole UK Parliament - that kind of stuff is left to committees. Ullman simply cherry-picks facts to make it look as if he/she has a case. In the case above, the fact he/she cites is not even relevant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:16, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Ullman has rightfully exposed the tactics used by some Misplaced Pages editors to distort our articles and introduce factual inaccuracies into the text. I think his work deserves a mention and we could add something like: "Due to extensive POV-pushing by some Misplaced Pages editors, the article on homeopathy has received criticism in the media". He asks, at the end of his article, what could be done to rectify the problem? I think the solution is simple: Run a fact-check for all Misplaced Pages articles classified as "pseudoscience" using authoritative reference works and scientific reviews as a standard of comparison. I am confident that many, if not all, alt. medicine articles will not pass the test and these results would most certainly be worth publishing. -A1candidate (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

A1c. Your repetitive nonsense is boring. Do you have any evidence for your silly claims. In fact, it has become disruptive, and you should stop. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Read Ullman's article if you want evidence. -A1candidate (talk) 11:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I did. It's his normal nonsense, so I ask again, do you have any evidence for your silly claims? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:55, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that it's nonsense? -A1candidate (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Dullman's article. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 11:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

ad hominem attacks and childish name-callling do not count as evidence -A1candidate (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Veterinary homeopathy update

Recently the Australian ( http://www.ava.com.au/12057 ) and British ( http://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policy/Policy/Medicines/Veterinary-medicines/ ) veterinary medical associations released statements removing all support for alternative medicines in general, homeopathy in particular. The relevant section should be updated to show the lack of support from veterinary professional bodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.181.251 (talk) 03:09, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Mathie's recent meta-analysis and its assessment by scientific community

User:Brunton has recently added the the recent meta-analysis by Mathie et al. This paper's methodology was heavily challenged by the scientific community, most notably by Edzard Ernst , to which the lead author RT Mathie responded himself, and by Norbert Aust in his german blog. I am not discussing Mathie's reputation as a known homeopath (because both Ernst and Aust are known sceptics), but i would like to notify you that there are valid doubts about the reliability of Mathie's review. Maybe there is room for that in the article, or maybe that review should not be included in the article because of its faulty methodology. Rka001 (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the fact it makes an exceptional claims raises a WP:REDFLAG, even apart from the commentary from Ernst and others. I wonder if it mightn't be better to wait until there is response in scholarly publications before including this meta-analysis. Alexbrn 16:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Self-published blog commentary are not reliable sources. If Ernst and Aust publish their posts in reputable scientific journals, we could include their work. If these are valid criticisms, we'll highlight them but we should not and cannot remove MEDRS sources. -A1candidate (talk) 16:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Mathie's RT is in contradiction to the scientific consensus, and it should be dealt with it accordingly. I remember the article about GFAJ-1, in which blogs of reliable microbiologists were used to cite the highly controversial nature of a finding reported by a Science paper (the journal). So, i do think your proposed remedy (leave as is, declare Mathie et al. as MEDRS-compliant) is not dealing with the situation. I agree that Alexbrn's proposal is handling the situation in a more reality-depicting way. Rka001 (talk) 16:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

GFAJ-1 does not cite blogs, but the subsequent independent studies published later. The situation seems to be that Ernst is getting pissed that his 2003 trial did not meet Cochrane criteria, and therefore should not be included for meta-analysis. As for Alexbrn's proposal of waiting for responses in scholarly publications, please remember that Misplaced Pages is not a WP:CRYSTALBALL and we cannot assume that these criticisms are valid enough to be published in the future. -A1candidate (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

GFAJ-1 does cite blogs by Rose Redfield, Alex Bradley, and articles published in Slate to cover the early criticism on the subject. Your statement about Ernst being "pissed" reveals you havent quite got what the problems are with the Mathie-paper. Before we continue discussion (i just realized you are kind of a CAM-crusader :P), do we agree that a) the Mathie-review contradicts scientific consensus, and b) do you agree that MEDRS does not relieve us from actually checking the validity of sources? Rka001 (talk) 18:39, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

GFAJ-1 does cite blogs by Rose Redfield, Alex Bradley, and articles published in Slate to cover the early criticism on the subject

I'm sorry I missed those at first glance, but you're right it does contain several citations to Blogspot and Wordpress. Whether they're appropriate or not is debatable, especially when one considers the availability of a good scientific review (PMID 21387349) that specifically criticizes the methodology of the Wolfe-Simon paper. What Ernst needs to do now, is to consolidate his criticism of Mathie et al and send it for publication in a scientific journal. If it get's accepted, I'll support the inclusion of all relevant criticism.

Your statement about Ernst being "pissed" reveals you havent quite got what the problems are with the Mathie-paper

I can't read his mind so I don't know how he feels, but writing in ALL CAPS, as Ernst did at the end of his 27 December post, does give the impression of someone that can't keep his emotions steady. What I learned from Ernst's posts was that his study didn't get included for review because of the criteria set by Mathie et al. What I don't understand is this: Ernst admits that "we did report the severity-outcome, albeit not in sufficient detail for their meta-analysis". In other words, a shoddily written paper with missing data gets excluded from review. How is that proof of scientific misconduct? The claim that Mathie et al designed the protocol in such a way as to exclude Ernst's study is a little wild. Frankly, in the absence of some form of hard evidence, it sounds pretty much like a crackpot conspiracy theory.

Before we continue discussion (i just realized you are kind of a CAM-crusader :P)

I declare that I have no vested interests, neither as a practitioner nor consumer of CAM. I understand that it appears as though I'm trying to promote CAM, but let me say this for the record: The only thing I care about is the accuracy of Misplaced Pages's medical articles. I have seen numerous cases of editors trying to twist the meaning of medical reviews and consensus statements just to debunk a particular treatment, be it homeopathy, acupuncture, TCM, or transcendental meditation, etc. Using dubious self-published blogs without any form of editorial control and removing scientific reviews in reputable journals certainly isn't going to improve the verifiability of our content.

Do we agree that a) the Mathie-review contradicts scientific consensus and b) do you agree that MEDRS does not relieve us from actually checking the validity of sources?

a) To a limited extent - I am aware of an influential meta-analysis published in The Lancet in 2005 that concluded that homeopathy is a placebo, but if I remember correctly it was heavily criticized in medical literature and some editors at Misplaced Pages were trying to suppress all forms of criticism about it. Also, Mathie et al seem rather cautious in their conclusions, i.e. the effect was found to be "small" and the quality of evidence was weak. This certainly does not contradict the conclusion of the following Cochrane review I posted below (which apparently hasn't yet been included in this article).

b) Absolutely not - The task of checking the validity of sources is covered by MEDRS itself. If a paper is deemed reliable per WP:MEDRS, it is not up to us to conduct an analysis of its review methodology and decide which paper to cherry-pick. Ask yourself this: If a new meta-analysis concludes that homeopathy has no effects whatsoever, and a homeopathic practitioner rants against its methodology for not including a prior study of his for review, are we going to remove the entire review altogether just because the homeopath's arguments may have a chance of being valid?

-A1candidate (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Homeopathy for treatment of irritable bowel syndrome

From the Cochrane Library:

• Peckham, EJ; Nelson, EA; Greenhalgh, J; Cooper, K; Roberts, ER; Agrawal, A (13 November 2013). "Homeopathy for treatment of irritable bowel syndrome". The Cochrane database of systematic reviews. 11: CD009710. PMID 24222383.

-A1candidate (talk) 17:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I would like comment i am going to introduce content about the history of homeopathy, some aspects about Napoleon Bonaparte and other notable people in relation with this medicine. --Pediainsight (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Hahnemann became physician of the German royalty. In 1797, he was physician to Duke Ernst of Gotha and Georgenthal. (Richard Haehl, 1922, II, 125).

Some notable people was treated with homeopathy after this historical context, from Hahnemann's discovery. Richard Haehl, the biographer of Hahnemann, noted that Napoleon was treated by a homeopath after the Battle of Leipzig. Haehl wrote:

"When Napoleon was treated by Dr. Maragnot on the isle of Elba by the homeopathic system for a dangerous form of pityriasis (a skin disease) and the Emperor regained his health, he made his physician acquaint him with the meaning and advantages of the new art of healing, and called it 'the most beneficent discovery since the invention of the art of printing.'" (Haehl, 1922, II, 159; also Ewers, 1826, 155; Baumann, 1857, 15;, Krauss, 1925).

Joseph von Radetzky, a nobleman and Austrian general, immortalized by Johann Strauss’s Radetzky March, suffered in 1841, from a tumor in the orbit of his right eye. He visited two professors of ophthalmology, Francisco Flarer and Friedrich Jaeger and they asserted that it was incurable.

Radetzky sought the care of the homeopath Dr. J. Christophe Hartung (1779–1853), a colleague and a student of Hahnemann. Radetzky was cured within six weeks. (Clarke, 1905, 103–106). --Pediainsight (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

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