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Deir Yassin massacre received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-05-19. The result of the discussion was keep.

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}. See /Archive for discussions mostly around Autumn 2003. Evidently these discussions led to a rewrite of the page and are difficult to follow now. Gadykozma 04:52, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See /Archive2 for discussions around the representation of the Irgun and Lehi as terrorists. If you disagree with the current formulation you are strongly advised to read this discussion, as it contains lots of relevant information (as in, things you probably don't know). I left on the main page Joseph's final words (see below) since I had the impression it related to other occurrances around Misplaced Pages as well. Gadykozma 14:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Eyewitness testimony

It occurs to me, on reading the article, that most of the so-called 'eyewitness testimonies' are nothing of the kind - at best, they'd be eyewitness reports of what the aftermath appeared to be; at worst, they're inexpert speculation based on what the witnesses saw. To take Dr Engel's testimony as an example, he didn't turn up on the scene until significantly after the events; he clearly can't be an eyewitness to them. At most, he's a witness to the debris of the battle/massacre. This distinction is vitally important, and isn't made in any way in the article.

FWIW, the eyewitness testimonies also seem to contradict each other in many ways. The Irgun perspective seems to have been given remarkably little space/priority, too.

Examples of seeming contradictions:

Mohammed Jaber, a village boy, observed the guerillas break in, drive everybody outside, put them against the wall and shoot them.

-v-

Dr. Alfred Engel's eyewitness account (11th April): In the houses there were dead, in all about a hundred men, women and children.

-v-

Mordechai Gihon's account from the 9th: I estimated that there were four pits full of bodies, and in each pit there were 20 bodies, and several tens more in the quarry.

As an aside, I'm not sure the 107 minimum figure is in any way accurate or reliable - it's supposed to be a count of the number of dead following the entire incident - and the article seems quite clear that there were many killed in the fighting before the massacre began.

J-o-s-h hi, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. Thanks for trying to improve the article. It seems that you edited the beginning of the article so as no to say explicitly that a massacre indeed happened. It is true that a certain group denies that there ever was a massacre, but it seems that this is a very small group. The massacre is practically universally acknowledged, including within Israel. Therefore to preserve neutrality, it is best if this view is described at the end of the article rather than at it's beginning. Gady 03:06, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt that there is some truth behind the story, but exactly what that truth is should surely be up to the reader to decide? Pejorative terms like 'massacre' are hardly NPOV. It is indisputable that there was an incident known as the DY Massacre; it is disputed as to exactly what took place. (I'm not going to change it back again without discussion, but I've noticed the same trend in various places on Misplaced Pages.)

I'm coming at this from a NPOV in that I've been trying to find out what actually happened. I don't think the article helped in any way; there has been deliberate obfuscation of the issue for so many years by so many different parties with conflicting political agendae that the actual truth is now undiscoverable. As such, I don't think it's possible to do a NPOV of this in any way other than to report all the various allegations and counter-allegations relating to the DYM. It's certainly not NPOV for the authors to be making judgements as to which statements are more believable. Reporting that almost everybody (including me, just to make that clear ;) believes that there was a massacre is objective fact. Reporting that the evidence shows there was a massacre is a subjective judgement.

Have you any comments on the eyewitness issue? Also, on further reading it occurs to me that there is clearly something missing from the part about the attack - no reasons are given as to why it took place, afaics.

I think it might be of benefit to start again from the beginning with a list of the indisputable facts of the issue. Josh

I am not sure I understand you objection: is the article unclear or is it unconvincing? Gady 21:50, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's not only unclear, it's also not NPOV. It shouldn't need to be 'convincing' because it ought to be stating nothing more than the facts of the case, rather than someone's moral judgement of them.

To clarify, the article doesn't present a coherent account of the incident and fails to present the basic facts in a clear enough manner to allow the reader to use their own judgement. It's a bit of a mess, really.

I made several points above that you seem to have skipped over; they were the important bit, really. I don't find it surprising that an article about an issue this convoluted would be a little hard to follow, but there just doesn't seem to be any logic or forethought that's gone into it at all. It reads like someone's slapped together a bunch of quotes that supported their view and then someone else has edited it to try and make it more neutral, but has only elided, rather than added. Josh

First of all, there's no need to let the indentation slide away. Standard practice here is that a reply-to-reply is in the same height as the original text. Now to the article. You are claiming simultaneously that the article is unclear and POV. These claims should be separated very carefully. If you have ideas how to make the article clearer or more structured we might want to discuss them first, it will be easier and more satisfying.

The reasons I skipped over your eyewitness comments was that it was not clear to me how they relate to improving the article. Please reformulate these comments as suggestions to the article, and then I will be happy to discuss them. Gady 19:17, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I can agree with you on the indentation issue ;)

I'm suggesting that the lack of clarity is the major issue. There are some minor POV issues, but I think they'd come out with a re-write. (I don't think it's so much a POV issue as simply that it lacks balance.) Whether it's 'the incident known as the DYM' or 'the DYM' is a pretty minor difference - one of tone more than anything else - and a relatively unimportant one. To clarify what I wrote above, I get the impression that someone with a clear POV has had a good stab at doing NPOV but been unable to keep all their personal bias out of it. Much more importantly, though, the article looks like it's been edited so many times that it's lost cohesion. I think the only way to rectify that is to start from scratch - possibly utilising major chunks of the text, but starting with a clean slate.

As far as the 'eyewitness testimonies' go, at the very least it's imperative that those which are clearly not any such thing shouldn't be labelled as such. On top of that, I'm not sure how to reconcile the many contradictions between them - I believe they can't be, but the lack of corroboration between the witness statements is significant.

To address the issue of what should actually be done, I'd suggest that we could use this page to have a go at creating a new article to replace the old one. If we started by listing the basic, indisputable facts, and then listing the various different embelishments to the tale, it might be clearer. Josh 21:33 (GMT) 7 Nov 2004

I would suggest not to use this page for this purpose. Create a new page, for example Deir Yassin massacre/New version, and edit there. People will be able to comment on your work on Talk:Deir Yassin massacre/New version. When you are done, the text can be copied (and even the histories can be merged, if necessary).

I would highly suggest that you make every effort to separate POV and structure issues. This will make your version much more acceptable to people. If your POV issues are, as you say, quite small, you can address them after you address the structure issues.

As for the eyewitnesses, they report what they have seen with their own eyes, hence they are eyewitnesses. The fact that they contain contradictions is obvious: in a typical hit-and-run accident, eyewitnesses will disagree on the color and the make of the car. Such is human nature. On the other hand, there are too many of them. It might be worth while to take only representative eyewitness testimonies, and move the rest to a different page, perhaps "Eyewitness testimonies from the Deir Yassin massacre" or something like it. Gady 22:11, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I get the impression that you're telling me to go ahead and put my money where my mouth is :) I've no problem with that, but I wasn't sure quite what the etiquette was. You seem to be taking an interest in this page and I don't want to step on your toes. Josh 022208112004GMT

Basically yes. The etiquette says that large changes should be discussed before hand. The usual way is actually not to use a temporary page, but because the changes you suggest are currently a little vague, a demonstration would make the discussion much more effective. Gady 04:02, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think Josh's points are well taken, and a temporary page to sort out the problems with this article is an excellent idea. Jayjg 15:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh dear, I look terrible now. I am still interested in working on this, but I haven't had a lot of time recently. Josh 211226112004GMT

Sid Zion, again

I've exercised the following sentence from the text:

His testimony has lately been challenged by Sid Zion of the Zionist Organisation of America and other right-wing Jewish organisations.

(regarding Meir Pa'il's testimony). Meir Pa'il was a general and one of the most respected Israeli public figures. His personal integrity is beyond doubt. Sid Zion is an American right wing nobody. These people would say any old thing if they thought that it is congruent with their twisted view of what's in Israel's interests. If they care so much about us, why don't they take their noses out of our business? In short, this sentence gives a false impression as if there is some controversy about Meir Pa'il. There is none. Gadykozma 09:56, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You wanted some evidence...

“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants , while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”38 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there." Sharif Kanaana and Nihad Zitawi, "Deir Yassin," Monograph No. 4, Destroyed Palestinian Villages Documentation Project, (Bir Zeit: Documentation Center of Bir Zeit University, 1987), p. 55.

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror." 45"Israel and the Arabs: The 50 Year Conflict," BBC.

According to Irgun leader Menachem Begin, the assault was carried out by 100 members of that organization; other authors say it was as many as 132 men from both groups. Begin stated that a small open truck fitted with a loudspeaker was driven to the entrance of the village before the attack and broadcast a warning to civilians to evacuate the area, which many did. Most writers say the warning was never issued because the truck with the loudspeaker rolled into a ditch before it could broadcast the warning. One of the fighters said, the ditch was filled in and the truck continued on to the village. "One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don't know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect."

Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.

Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.

At least some of the women who were killed became targets because of men who tried to disguise themselves as women. The Irgun commander reported, for example, that the attackers "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners." Another story was told by a member of the Haganah who overheard a group of Arabs from Deir Yassin who said "the Jews found out that Arab warriors had disguised themselves as women. The Jews searched the women too. One of the people being checked realized he had been caught, took out a pistol and shot the Jewish commander. His friends, crazed with anger, shot in all directions and killed the Arabs in the area."

And so on, and so on... Mike23

So you have learned how to do copy and paste. Congratulations! Please come back when you have read the original sources cited by this article and so have the basis to make an informed report on it. Here's just one morsel for you: you copied "Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference." Perhaps if you knew that the Red Cross representative wrote "All I could think of was the SS troops I had seen in Athens" you would start to realise that there is a little more to the story than you realise. --Zero 11:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Zero, please refrain from personal attacks just because somone diagrees with you. The man is offering support for his viewpoint, what was your purpose in including the Red Cross quote, which is ironically much more sensational and much less useful than Mike's quote. Please if you decide to contribute to a controversial subject and want your opinions to be listened to at least pretend to be neutral- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg

How many were killed?

The article header says At least 107 Palestinian civilians were killed. Some sources report many more deaths, but their accuracy has been disputed. The body of the article has a long discussion of death numbers, which includes the statement It can now be said with certainty that the death toll did not exceed 120. These statements need to be reconciled. Jayjg 17:02, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

120 is larger than 107 (take my word for it, I'm a mathematician). But seriously, I don't see here any contradiction. The article goes into great length to dispute these other sources so it can finally make that certain claim. Gadykozma 17:23, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, if it fully refutes that, then the summary claim should list the conclusion of the debate, not the start of it. Also, the number given in Israeli massacres article (sorry, the actual name escapes me at the moment) is 100-110. These should all be reconciled; I propose the number be given as 107-120 in all three places. Jayjg 17:29, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In this I agree with Jagj, the number most commonly accepted is around 107-120, we will never know for sure, it may also have been a bit higher, but survivers testimonies, and the evidence show the number in that range somewhere (not all the bodies were recovered). The exhaustive Birzeit study showed that. The numbers were exagerated by both sides, but the flight of refugees because of the Deir Yassin story is very real. Even Begin, the former terrorist, admitted it was worth a division or more I believe.

As far as I know I do not think there were any rapes, no real accounts, it may have been covered up or been hushed up due to shame, but unlikely? Again who knows? A small number of children and adults survived the attacks.

We do know for sure there was quite a bit of widespread looting, and theft of jewellery from dead bodies (cutting rings off, etc.) It is eneough the homes became the property of new Jewish immigrants. The ground was still warm Joseph 21:22, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

The most widely-cited death count was 254 until recently, now we have a number floated that is 107-120 or so. But the lead to this article uses the term "scores," I wonder will that be changed to "dozens" in time for the 60th anniversary of the massacre -- or might the new term be Deir Yassin "Incident" by then? Plus we also have attempts to count the dead as, at least partially, combatants. If a man raises his hand to stop the murder of his family maybe that makes him a combatant, right? So perhaps "dozens" is too high when applied to civilians? Incremental revisionism is widespread on Misplaced Pages, I have no strong feelings on this article but there are many who do, and it seems their perseverance will eventually win out in an edit war, I am interested in how Misplaced Pages will deal with this type of challenge.RomaC 08:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The 107-120 figure was given by a Bir-Zeit research, hardly a body with motive to practice "Incremental revisionism" regarding this subject, so your cynicism is quite out place. And many accounts refer to a very bitter battle being fought, very different from the "raising their hand to stop the murder" picture you try to paint. It was more like 'raising their hand to fire a machine-gun'. You also ignore the fact that Arab irregular fighters (mostly Iraqis) often used the village as a base to attack Jewish convoys (although the villagers themselves resented this for the very reason that it exposed them to Jewish attacks).

As for Joseph - when you say "We do know for sure there was quite a bit of widespread looting" - who exactly is "we"? And how exactly do "we" know this? Please present sources that back this claim.

-Sangil 19:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

107 is probably the correct figure. 240 was the figure promoted by the IZL and LHI themselves. It was reported by the BBC and the New York Times reported 254 shortly after. About a fifth of the victims were executed after the fighting in a nearby quarry. All of the reasons you give for the killings apply to the Kfar Etzion massacre. For an overview see Gelber, Yoav (2006). Palestine 1948. Appendix II: Propaganda as History: What Happened at Deir Yassin? (pp. 306-318). Sussex Academic Publishers. ISBN 1845190750. --Ian Pitchford 20:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag

(the following paragraph was posted as a reply to the one above, but it really started a new discussion so I retrospectively added a headline and reduced the indentation. Gady 16:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC))

So what are the source for 120 deaths? And why should we trust the research of Palestinian university its certainly partisan source. So i am adding back the NPOV. Also how we know they were all civillians and there was no armed man inside the village?

The research conducted by the university was well documented. I don't know where to get it, but I believe the information is all available. The university found out there were much less victims than originally thought, even though for propaganda purposes it would of course be better if there were more. Also 1987 was a different time, much less tense than today.

In short, for the purpose of the NPOV-ity of the article, what is important is to represent all opinions fairly. There is a small minority that claims that no massacre ever existed — their views are described under Deir Yassin massacre#Modern debate. Are you claiming that the article does not describe their opinions in a fair way? Or that there is another group which specifically rejects only the university study — presumably in this case they would need to accept previous numbers which were much higher?

Finally, just to let you know, the {{NPOV}} tag should be put on the article only if a reasonable attempt to solve the dispute on the talk page failed. Gadykozma 21:47, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There was no reply so I removed it. Gadykozma 16:47, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First of all this article based on research conducted by one of sides in this incident so how can we trust that research?

Second Academic research is not ultimate truth. For example there is Academic researches that denies holocaust it doesn't make them true

Third provide link to this research. So we can at least check it out.

I am restoring the NPOV

I removed the quote you added because it already appeared in the article, several sections above, with attribution. As for the {{NPOV}} tag, please be more responsive in the future. You can't slap a tag that says there is a dispute and then disappear for two weeks. As for the research of the university, I have no clue, but Benny Moris' book should be in any reasonable academic library and would definitely contain a reference. Gadykozma 17:42, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I give up

Ok, let it be full of lies and misinformation, you will only hurt yourselves.

Everyone with sense, reason, and ther ability to research knows the truth. It is a shame this view has been taken, and it is akin to saying the Holocaust did not happen. I suppose those Arab homes the Jewish people live in in Deir Yassin were not Arab either, is that so too!

In any case, as others much wiser have said, it is a waste of time. Fill the content of the Misplaced Pages with non-sensical meanings, and vain attempts to hide facts, They will come out one day, when they do a deep shame should fill us all for all the innocent lives lost.

I feel sorry for the maligned truth on these pages. I guess if that is what the pro-Zionist supporters were after by blocking every entry I make then you got your wish. What a shame. There is no NPOV view or truth on any of these pages dealing with the Arab/Israeli conflict, and especially in respect to Palestinians Joseph 00:15, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Irgun, Etzel IZL

Let's decide on one of them and standardize the article. I prefer (in this order) IZL, Etzel, Irgun. What do other people prefer? Gadykozma 13:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Irgun is the most commonly used name in English, and this is English Misplaced Pages... Jayjg 17:44, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I changed it to Irgun in the few relevant places. Gadykozma 01:44, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Question of Translation or Meaning

Ok, the truck with the mortar in the story near the end of the battle that comes from the Haganah; it says it fires "tree shoots". Is this a reference to "tree bursts"? The article seems to be talking about setting the mortars to explode above the building to kill snipers--this is best termed an "air burst".

Unfortunately, it seems the guy who wrote this, BL, has left Misplaced Pages on May. Therefore the only way to verify is to check the book referred to. My guess is that it should be "three shots"... Gadykozma 00:47, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that the article is pro-zionist. I just came here to read more or less what happened. I don't expect casualty figures or every report drawn from one book to be literally accurate. Just as you said, if you are too critical of the 'perspective' of wiki authors then it will descend into the same kind of political speech and bland, noncommital recitations that is popular in the American media.

Message sent to me

A wikipedian sent this message to me after I made a comment on the votes for deletion page, in everyone's interest I have copied it here:-

See http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac17.htm, http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html, http://www.freeman.org/m_online/may98/bedein.htm, http://www.theraphi.com/da/april/18.html and of course stage five in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html. While the loss of non-combatants is regrettable in any war, the fact that the Arabs deliberately hid among civilians, opened fire from within civilian crowds and pretended to be dead and then ambushed Irgun solders (foreshadowing present day events) places the blame for the non-combatant casualites squarely on Arab fighters, not the Irgun. Indeed, a truck with a loudspeaker was deployed to warn Arab civilians of the coming attack (thereby forgoing the advantage of surprise). Irgun fighers were given strict orders to not harm the elderly, woman and children, and took any Arab who surrended prisoner, as opposed to the Arabs who would execute anyone who surrendered to their forces. Arab eyewitnessess claim that there was no massacre, and that the majority of Arab non-combantants were serving in a support role to the Arab forces, and thereby legimate targets. Many Arabs openly admit that the so-called "Deir Yassing" massacre was used as a tool to support invading Arab armies, and not represenation of true fact. I sincerely hope that you will look deeper into this issue, and come to realize that in every war their are innoccents harmed, but in this case everything was done that could reasonably minimize this unforunate occurrence.

Regards,

MSTCrow 15:32, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Too long

This page can be reduced to probably four paragraphs like a normal encyclopedia entry. It is longer than the page on the Taiping Rebellion, China's civil war that killed 20 million people! The minute details are for further study elsewhere. An entry should contain: 1) who what when where, 2) significance of massacre/atrocity reports in the time period, 3) fact that most conventional history reports event as a massacre, 4) that a few challenge it, alleging certain things (x,y,z), 5) it remains subject of factual and political debate. The end. The details can be hashed out numerous places and are.

-- Anon, but knowledgable on subject

It has been stated that the opening paragraphs are really all one needs for the article; I wonder how others feel. Jayjg 16:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I totally disagree. This proves that the Taiping Rebellion article is too short, not that this article is too long. One of Misplaced Pages's great strengths is its ability to treat obscure topics in detail; its weakness, in fact, tends to be the articles on broader topics, which fit less easily into any one person's expertise. - Mustafaa 16:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's in desperate need of cleanup, particularly the footnotes which are formatted in the most obnoxious way imaginable. Jayjg 16:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The non-footnotes, you mean! I actually find them kind of convenient, but I agree that a standard footnote layout would be more aesthetically pleasing, if marginally harder to follow. - Mustafaa 17:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There does not need to be a Deir Yassin article AND a Deir Yassin Massacre article separately. At least the opening paragraph should say why the village is of interest, not the details of its location. The opening can give a summary of the reason for interest - a famous massacre reproted there -- and the basics, and report that the massacre allegation is challenged in some circles (IMO dishonestly and ridiclously but that need not be added). The rest of the article can be detailed by persons who want to write, amend, and reamend the massacre debate and details.

-- Anon but familiar

And someone keeps eradicating the Hebrew transliteration, even though it common appears (try Google) and was used and is used in Hebrew language literature and records on the subject and in translations of them. Stop it. What the village name is today does not mean there is no Hebrew transliteration of the former name.

The village had no Hebrew name, this transliteration is of a mispronunciation common among Hebrew speakers. This would be like putting "Betah Tiqoua" as a transliteration of Petah-Tikva.--Doron 06:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is written in Hebrew in books and literature at the time and commonly transliterated that way -- see Begin's memoirs, do a google search. If you want to add a note to that effect, do it. The fact is that researching Deir Yassin is aided by noting that it often appears transliterated from the Hebrew as Dir Yassin. It may be a mistake, it doesnt matter, that's how it appears, and often odes in the literature on Deir Yassin; an encyclopedia aids researchers to find thngs, many things are listed as Dir Yassin, including a former Israeli punk rock band. The name Jonah for example is transliterated from Hebrew many ways but also via Greek as Jonas and that fact should be noted, if one is researching Bible references, one should note the common way it appears and in older English Bibles (particularly Catholic ones)and refrences to it you will find "JOnas". Deir Yassin DOES have a commonly appearing Hebrew transliterated name "Dir Yassin" (Google it, darn it!) in the same way there is a bad English transliteration "Deir Yassin" rather than the more accurate "Dayr Yasin". Given that much primary and secondary literature is in Hebrew and or transliterated from it, it should be noted. TO say the town doesn't have a Hebrew name is like saying Moscow doesnt have an English name. Yes, it does: Moscow. It is transliterated Moskva and is such in Russian. But in English it's Moscow. In Hebrww, an important language for researching Deir Yassin it appears often as Dir Yassin, even if mispronounced it is what it is.

Stop changing it.

-- Anon, but familiar

For handling alternative spellings, wikipedia uses redirects, so what you should have done is create redirects (such as and ). Moscow and Deir Yassin are English names, "Dir Yassin" is a misspelling by the translator (I don't suppose the Hebrew original was written with vowels?).--Doron 12:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

______________ The redirects are useful, but does not give a useful explanation for the origin of the commonly appearing Dir Yassin. Mistakes in transliteration is how MOST foreign terms get popularized. Even mistransliterations, eg Jehovah is a mistransliteration of Yahweh consonants and later Adonai vowels, Paris is not Pah RISS but Pah reeee, but we pronounce as we read it. It is important to note the origin of Dir Yassin as anyone researching it in a book or online should look for that spelling; this tells why.

Deir Yassin is not an English name, it is a transliteration (and a poor one) from Arabic but it is the standard because it was the official British one. Dir Yassin is the standard roman transliteration from Hebrew. It should be noted as such. And not merely redirected.

I'm fine with your last edit.--Doron 23:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Civilians and POV

The article claims "between approximately 107 and 120 Palestinian Arab civilians were killed" how do we know that all of who was killed was civilians there is various reports that there was indeed some Arab fighters in the village. Also the whole article based on Partisan research of Palestinian university how can we trust and such controversial figures like Morris.I think it should be labeled with POV tag.

Arguments about precise numbers of killed

This is pathetic. Most Jews/Israelis accept this massacre took place (even Ben Gurion was appalled and later tried to kill Begin, who led Irgun. See Altalena). Does it really matter that much if 107 or 120 were murdered? We will never have the precise figure, so the article should simply state that fact, have some varying evidence, and that's it. I could quite easily call into question some of the above posters' impartiality given complaints about the trustworthiness of Palestinian academia - or can I call into question all statements and statistics provided on Palestinian groups and actions by all Jewish groups and organisations? No, thought not. Leave you politics and prejudice at the door. 86.15.169.220 12:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Arab or Palestinian?

The article says Palestinian when they are killed and Arab when they are doing the killing. Am I missing something, can someone clarify?

To my mind either Palestinian should not be used (as it meant Jewish person in the Mandate at the time) or it should be used consistently (for clarity to modern readers).

Anyone have any thoughts or additional information?

Request for Sanity

User Zero0000 repeatedly deletes my edits to this page, to include this page: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/deir-yassin.htm along with the already existing "Webpage opposing the massacre theses" in a sepearte heading in the external links section titled "Those Opposing the Massacre Thesis." The existence of those that oppose the theory that there was a massacre should not be a secret, and since the actual piece is well documented and draws on a lot of verifiable data, I do not understand what reason he has, other than he simply disagrees with the conclusion, to constantly be deleting this link. Help? Ryan4 14:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

User Ryan4 has been going around Misplaced Pages adding links to all the articles of amateur historian and propagandist Francisco Gil-White (who in real life is a psychologist). Either Ryan4 is actually Francisco Gil-White himself (he denies it) or he is a clone of Francisco Gil-White. The nature of Francisco Gil-White's site is essentially that of a private blog. He has collected his articles all together, given the collection a lovely name "Historical and Investigative Research", and now he wants to use Misplaced Pages to crank up his hit rate. That is not a role that Misplaced Pages is intended to play. As for the Deir Yassin article itself, it is a rant. There is no new evidence, no original thinking, nothing that provides anything at all which is not already better provided in the links we have already. If you want to read a proper account of the case against the massacre that we are supposedly keeping secret, read the article of Sid Zion. --Zero 15:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

For someone who is supposed to be a moderator, you seem incredibly incapable of moderating in a level headed, dispassionate manner. You have repeatedly accused me of being someone I am not, you throw around the terms 'amateur' and 'propagandist' along with 'blog' like blanket accusations that prove some kind of defect of character or lack of credible views / corroborated facts. I have noticed many links on wikipedia to alternative media sources that promote a theory or viewpoint other than the official line (especially to The Emperor's New Clothes) and thus the criteria for addding external links seems to me not that they agree 100% with the accepted viewpoint but that they contain factual documentation that can be verified. All the articles on both HIR and TENC, both of which are at least partly the work of Gil-White, are written so as to ensure that any claim is both footnoted and supported by at least one source. Most of these sources are the mainstream western press. 'Blogs' and 'rants' in my mind are 'opinion' that have nothing to do with footnoted sources. 'Propaganda' are documents spread by people with political agendas (usually supporting the status quo) that contain claims either purposely misleading or downright false, again, with no emphasis whatsoever on factual accuracy or reliance on reliable sources. I can only assume that you are either using these words because you have not actually read the articles, or because you find the conclusions threatening to your point of view and wish to slander anyone who tries to have them read by others. Will no one end this moderator's ovbious vendetta against a perfectly legitimate alternate theory of events? Ryan4 20:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a moderator, I'm an administrator. That gives me some additional capabilities but I don't normally use them in articles where I'm involved as an editor. And, yes, I have read a number of the articles of Francisco Gil-White including the Deir Yassin article. I know propagandistic rants when I see them, having seen very many. --Zero 01:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I would be interested in finding out exactly what the criteria are for becoming an administrator. I would hope that it would be a relatively open process, but that those chosen would have a calm disposition, a good writing style, a grasp of many topics and a scientific outlook. It seems you lack at least the latter. You claim that Gil-White is an 'amateur', yet aren't we all here at wikipedia? Shouldn't the point of an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit be that information does not flow, as it used to, from up on high, but is accessible to and provided by we, the people? The only criteria for including information or analysis, given this egalitarian position, should therefore be that the information is verifiable, and that the analysis is done in a rigorous, scientific way. That is to say - provide documentation, and provide a hypothesis that best fits that data. It should not matter whether the person providing that hypothsis is white, black, or, heaven forbid, a professor of psychology. Rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks, I would very much appreciate it if you could give at least one instance where Gil-White has made a factual mistake, or has made a claim that is not backed up. If you cannot, then I do not see what reason, other than a personal vendetta, you could possibly have for constantly checking the page and deleting the link I put there. Are there no other administrators that can play some kind of mediating role in this? Ryan4 03:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ryan4- please fix the link you have provided (unless it's just me who can't open it, in which case ignore this), so we can all see for ourselves what this is all about.

Dear Zero- PLEASE avoid using insulting remarks, which IMHO have no place here. The Deir Yassin article has more propaganda than Pravda, yet I don't think getting personal will do anyone much good. For the sake of us who are relatively new here- If you think that the afore-mentioned link is a load of **** (which it may well be, I don't know) -then give the *reasons*, rather than your personal opinion of the author.

Happy St. Patricks! -Sangil 09:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, most of us are amateurs, but we don't publish our own research here. That is forbidden. We report on the work of the professionals who have published their research in the standard fashion, and we cite them. As for your own effort, I can't see why I should be bothered with it but anyway finding errors of fact or unsupported claims is a triviality.

• "A terrorist deliberately targets innocent civilians. Did the Irgun? No. Quite the contrary.". -- Such as when they set off a bomb in the Arab market of Haifa (July 25, 1938) killing 39 Arabs who were unlucky enough to be there. Apparently you don't know basic facts about the Irgun, but you want us to link to your article on it.
• "The name Palestine was revived after the fall of the Ottoman Empire" -- In fact the name was in use for almost the whole period since Roman times, including during the Ottoman empire as you can find documented by Porath and others. Apparently you don't know basic facts about "Palestine" either.
• " The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953." -- If you were a real historian and you were publishing in a serious place instead of just on your own web page, it would be regarded as serious misconduct to directly cite a primary source that you did not examine yourself.

--Zero 10:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Ryan4, if you don't log in we can all see where you are connected from. Another amazing coincidence that you are at the same institution as Francisco Gil-White, don't you think? --Zero 13:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I have never heard of any use of the term 'Palestine' since Roman times until the British Mandate. I am most curious to examine the reference given by this 'Porath' you mention, or any other reference you may be aware of. Any chance you can direct me to it?

-Sangil 21:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

removal of lebenese stamp

I don't think the stamp really belongs in the article. I mean, really what does it show that is relavent to the article? roughly the location of Deir Yassin I guess, but anything else?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This stamp is too emotional. Christophe Greffe 18:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is biased

Robin Hood 1212 13:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

do you have any examples of this bias?

Don't take info from the IDF

This makes the article pro-Israeli. Robin Hood 1212 13:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. The article cites numerous sources, both Israeli and non-israeli. Isarig 14:03, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Total Rewrite

I've rewritten the entire article and have renamed it to Battle of Deir Yassin, as it holds all the characteristics of a battle, and the title is a small part of the events themselves. The "massacre" will be a subcategory in the article. I've made sure that everything is sourced and uses many of the quotes already available within the article, but also gives them context and is cohesive enough to show a strict timeline of events, instead of a collection of quotes. Of course, there are things that can be expanded upon, for example the last two sections, and the source numbers are out of order but correspond correctly. I any case, I don't think they should be ordered until the article settles down enough, and I am sure that somebody will add other information very shortly.

Guy Montag 23:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a few random comments about the article as is stands now ( Unrelated to the name question; that is a separate issue):

• as the article is now: it is difficult to know where to start... "everything is sourced" is used an excuse for including every self-serving statements there is from the perpetrators. The result is that if we are to believe this article, then the inhabitants of Deir Yassin must either have been complete idiots or totally suicidal. How else can one explain that they several times refused help from Arab militants, and then went on to attack Jews/Zionist, who were much better armed than they? Obviously, they wanted to die/be expelled...
• just take a word like "claim" versus "report": use the search and find on the article and find who "claims", and who "reports". Like the sentence: "They (=people from Deir Yassin) are shooting at passing cars" is reported, but it is "a villager who claims that" she saw her mother and brother being shot.

• Also: a "battle", but only 4 killed on the attackers side? More people have been killed from "friendly fire" than that.
• very basic information which is missing from the article is:
  • an estimate of number of inhabitants of the village, (according to Deir Yassin it had 610 inhabitants in 1945, how was it in -48?)
  • an estimate of the number of attackers of the village. (First attack force was 132 Lehi/Irgun men, but how many were the "sizeable Palmach unit"?)
  • Also missing: of the dead villagers: How many were male? How many were women? Children?
• ( Unrelated to the name issue: ) Why quote Abba Eban? Did he have any new or "inside information" on the issue?
• in the "Deir Yassin's Importance to Jewish Forces"-section: the following apologies for breaking the peace pact makes absolutely no sense to me: "The pact was not recognized by the Haganah Command and was temporary in nature. For example, Abu Gosh also concluded a local peace pact, but was subsequently quietly barracked by Haganah forces because it overlooked a strategic position over a site planned for a military airport." Firstly, from what I understand it was not the Haganah Command (I assume they refer to a central command?) that broke the pact. The article states that it was the regional leadership who both made the pact and then broke it. The second sentence does not exemplify what it is supposed to exemplify. It is not breaking a pact if both parts of the pact agrees that (parts of) the pact is no longer valid. The Abu Gosh example is therefore simply quite irrelevant. (The Nazareth example is far more relevant: the city surrendered on the written condition that all civilians were allowed to stay. A day later they were ordered expelled (by General Laskov, who had co-signed the very agreement the day before.))

• in the "Accounts of Battle and Aftermath" section: according to Uri Milstein, the reports on Deir Yassin that spurred the Palestinians into exile were "mostly fabricated or exaggerated by various elements on the Jewish side." (in: "No deportation, Evacuations", Hadashot, 1 January 1988.) Milsteins work is quoted extensively in the article, but this is for some reason missing..... Did I hear the word "cherry-picking"?

• in the "Allegations of Mutilations and Rape"-section: I do not have the main books with me just now, so I´m quoting from memory; but all the eye-witness accounts that I have heard/read from the Arab side strongly underlined that there were no rapes committed. So the "Allegations of Mutilations and Rape" gives a wrong impression. (I think most will get the impression that these allegations came from the Arab side.) Actually, in the article now it looks as if the only allegations of rape comes from Lehi men (against IZL). (This would fit well with Millsteins view).
• as to what the Arab broadcast said at the time: anybody with any knowledge of the socalled "broadcast controversy" (i.e about alleged broadcast on various Arab radio stations in 1948 urging the Palestinians to flee) knows that some supporters of Israel have a proven record of falsifying history. (I´m sorry, but there is simply no more diplomatic way of putting this. Please read e.g. Chapter 3, "Broadcasts", in "Blaming the victim" before you protest.) Allegations of what Arab broadcast said/did not say should be treated as such: allegations. (Printed newspaper reports is, ofcourse uncontroversial...well, mostly!: .)
• And quoting a Nusseibeh on a Husseini, is, well, it seems like, well, perhaps like quoting Lehi men on IZL? (Actually, I frankly do not know much about the internal relationship between Lehi/IZL/Palmack. But the hostility between the Nusseibeh and the Husseini clans is famous). And in spite of the headline: where are the allegations of mutilation? What were claimed is the killing at point-blank range: and a sentence like "many were shot at close range, consistent with door-to-door fighting" could just as well have been: "many were shot at close range, consistent with being slaughtered."

• that people "accepted" an order, or "accepted" the Geneva convention, does not mean that they followed it!

...and I haven´t even mentioned the sources of the massacre you have cut out/do not mention...That is a whole separate chapter. Regards, Huldra 16:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

well, I see that nobody has responded to this. If I do not get any answers (to e.g. to the apologies for breaking the peace pact in the "Deir Yassin's Importance to Jewish Forces"-section ..I will remove them as irrelevant. Regards, Huldra 04:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Battle???

Strongly suggest article title be reverted to "Deir Yassin Massacre" as that is the generally accepted term. Substituting "battle" frankly smacks of historical revisionism, in the perjoritive sense. Now this is a SAD ('sides are drawn') situation so it helps to remember Wiki is an encyclopedia and the event being addressed is already known by a certain name -- as tellingly posted elsewhere on this page, a Google search for

   "Battle of Deir Yassin" yields 103 results
   "Deir Yassin massacre" yields 27,200 results

People, be reasonable, our responsibility here is to respect and reflect the reality of the world we live in whether we agree with it or not.RomaC 07:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Now Zionists want to cover up their crimes. They r Deir Yasin-deniers. :) Robin Hood 1212 03:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you actually have something constructive to add or was that it? Guy Montag 04:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This event is known almost universally as the "Deir Yassin massacre" and so the move is not legitimate, just as a move from "Kfar Etzion massacre" to "Battle of Kfar Etzion" would not be legitimate. I will leave you to move the article back. --Ian Pitchford 07:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

These events have nothing to do with each other. In Kfar Etzion, most of the people where killed after the battle, in Deir Yassin, they were killed during heavy house to house fighting.Guy Montag 18:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

If this goes to mediation or arbitration the article will be restored to its original location at "Deir Yassin massacre". It'll save everyone a lot of trouble and annoyance if you move it now. Then we can discuss the content. --Ian Pitchford 20:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you request a peer review if you are so sure. This is a neutral name for a battle that happened. A massacre is a premeditated mass murder of civilians. No evidence shows that there were killings of groups of people after the battle was over. The content is intrinsically tied to the name. Guy Montag 21:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You're wrong about killings after the battle - but you've deleted the section and source confirming this from your version. I'm sure this was accidental. Basically, it doesn't matter what you or I or other Misplaced Pages editors think this event should be called. It is in fact known universally in the literature as the "Deir Yassin massacre" as a simple Google search or Google Book search will verify. Please move the article back or let me know if you would rather refer the issue for mediation or arbitration. --Ian Pitchford 07:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I didn't include every quote available in the previous article, and deleted information that was vague, didn't have any context or were general statements of the pov of some eye witnesses after the fact of the battle. I didn't order the references for the pure fact that other information will undoubtably be included into the article, and I didn't follow any pretenses that what I wrote will either end the discussion or is so comprehensive that other sources need not be introduced. What I did is organize a cohesive string of events and bundled them with modern historical breakthroughs.

Historical evidence and studies that delve into the time period have found out new information regarding the battle, that refute earlier descriptions of "massacres". I've done enough research through secondary sources and historical documents that confirm such a view. Finally, please don't make argumentum ad google arguments, instead introduce facts that contradict my sources. Guy Montag 19:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

So, in your view this material you've deleted from the article, taken from a 2006 publication by Yoav Gelber, a noted Israeli historian (who is generally considered to be on the right), is "vague", "didn't have any context" or was "general"?

Although the Irgun and Lehi claimed subsequently that foreign combatants were present in the village all contemporary and later Arab testimonies, including those of the refugees themselves, as well as SHAI's Arab sources, confirm that the villagers were the only combatants present. Menachem Begin claimed in his memoirs that Iraqi troops were present in Deir Yassin, but these were in fact stationed in Ain Karim (Gelber, 2006, p. 311).

Your renaming of this article and deletion of reliable scholarly sources is a violation of the terms of your probation. Please move this article back to "Deir Yassin massacre" and then we can set about restoring the sources. --Ian Pitchford 22:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Why only Arab "massacres" r called "massacres" but Zionist ones r covered-up? Robin Hood 1212 21:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

You can of course dismiss it as argumentum ad google, but googeling for

"Battle of Deir Yassin" gives about 92 hits today, while it gave about 82 yesterday.

"Deir Yassin massacre" gives about 31 500 hits (same yesterday)

Oh, and: Deir Yassin-deniers gives about 828 hits ;-D Regards, Huldra 04:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You are arguing that although it is a fallacious argument the numbers supposedly speak for themselves. The thing is, they do not and are inflated. Many of those 31 thousand are simply a part of an ungoing discussion of "there was a massacre" and "there wasn't a massacre," with both sides using the same terminology. Hence the fallaciousness of the google argument as the 31000 number includes the arguments of both sides and has nothing to do with the name. Interestingly enough, over time the numbers in google will even out. 92 today, 2000 in a couple of months. Give it a year and you will be complaining about argumentum ad google. Guy Montag 05:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

And y don't u call me an anti-Semite too and say that the massacre was a myth like all Zionists do? Those ppl r trying to portray themselves as victims, they even deny that Palestinians ever existed. I wonder who they r fighting in the WB and GS. Robin Hood 1212 04:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The 1948 war began on May 15, the massacre occured in April

Robin Hood 1212 21:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There are different phases of the 1948 war. Operation Nachson marks the beginning of the second phase. Guy Montag 22:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Battle of Deir Yassin → Deir Yassin Massacre – Rationale: In scientific literature, Hebrew, etc know as the Deir Yassin Massacre … -- Kim van der Linde 15:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

If we are to have the title truly reflect the content, why not "Battle of Guy Montag," as he is the principle in an article marked chiefly by a fierce fight to whitewash history. I usually don't get involved in this sort of thing but am very disappointed to see how SAD (sides are drawn) articles degenerate into POV wars.

Further, editors below were voting on a proposal which meant to euphemise a general usage term, Montag saw the vote going against the initiative, so declared the deadline extended. Suddenly, a host of "Oppose" votes began appearing. Survey the Talk Pages of these voters, they indicate a definite pro-Israeli bent. Special interest blocks and cabals are not what Wiki should be about -- the event in question has an established name, it is not for Wiki to change it, no matter our personal feelings. RomaC 09:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to me that there were two phases. A battle of close combat and house to house fighting, which almost certainly involved the deaths of some civlians, then in the aftermath, the execution of prisoners. Similar things happened in the battle of stalingrad, and it is not called 'the stalingrad massacre'. No one contests that arab and israeli forces were engaged in combat in the village. The execution of prisoners could be called a massacre though, and could possibly have a seperate page. I favor leaving the article titled how it is as a more accurate description of a conflict with two sides armed and fighting. --Irongaard 18:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

Even with Montag recruiting people to vote whom he knows agree with his POV (and, as far as I know, no one doing the same in the opposite direction) the best he can get is something near a tie. Which leads to the question: why are we voting on whether to move the article back? Since Montag started this by whitewashing the article (deleting sourced information he didn't like) then moving the article without consensus, unless he has an overwhelming majority that the article should have been moved, I think we should go back to the status quo ante bellum -- put the article where it goes, and see if Montag can get overwhelming support for moving it here. Otherwise we reward his childish behavior. -Rjyanco 12:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support-- Kim van der Linde 15:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
• OpposeI think its should be called incident because we will never know what actually happened there. Massacre and Battle is a pov words.--Shrike 15:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

  I would be fine with incident if there is support for that. -- Kim van der Linde 18:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose the facts simply do not support a clear cut massacre as defined to be many unarmed civilians grouped together to be killed after hostilities are over. Guy Montag 07:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support Clear cut case in literature.--Pan Gerwazy 14:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- Montag removed sourced materials about the massacre, then moved the article because the article didn't discuss a massacre. Disingenuous at best, but a POV move and POV edits need to be corrected. -Rjyanco 18:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support This is known as a massacre (this is the most used name) and there has been massacres (25 prisonners after the battle) See eg Gelber, Palestine 1948, pp.311-... I cannot understand there can be so much discussion around this topic. Alithien 18:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support I´ll post a comment below. Regards, Huldra 19:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• support oppose per nom After a 2nd thought maybe the word "incident" is more apporpriate. per Humus.Zeq 20:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support battle is misleading by suggesting that civilians are combatants. Homey 22:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support I also feel "battle of..." is misleading and POV. --Cab88 08:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Rename into "Incident" per Shrike. â†�Humus sapiens 09:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support Stop covering your crimes zionists. Robin Hood 1212 16:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

  There is no need to say this (even when you are yourself convinced this is what is going on). -- Kim van der Linde 17:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. No evidence has been given that the word "massacre" is dominant in scholarly literature. For example, Efraim Karsh in The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948, p. 45, calls the event the "Deir Yasin tragedy". When we have differences in terminology, let's stick to the most NPOV option. Pecher 19:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment on Google "Battle of Deir Yassin" renders 108 hits (zero on Google Scholar) vs "Deir Yassin masscare" with 29,200 hits (51 in google scholar)Homey 20:02, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Google Scholar has a very limited and an unrepresentative collection of works available. The inappropriateness of using Google itself in this case probably goes without saying. The ability of one side to post lots of propaganda online should have no bearing on Misplaced Pages. Pecher 20:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Do you have any evidence that "Battle of Deir Yassin" is used prominently in academic literature?Homey 20:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

CommentFor now that is irrelevent as you are using argumentum ad google. The only way to determine the name of an article is through its content, and when the content is not clear cut, it is best to use an npov title. Guy Montag 23:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support reflect the reality of the world we live in whether we agree with it or not. RomaC 07:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - oversimplifies the nature of this incident. Would support a rename per Humus if that was consensus but I personally think "Battle" is more accurate. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Briangotts Isarig 15:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion Well, it's been five days and the yeas outnumber the nays by 2:1.Homey 05:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Let's give this another 36 hours. Homey 05:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - both sides agree that it was a battle that turned into something more/worse. But nobody is asserting that the purpose of the attack was to kill people. Contrast this with Kfar Etzion massacre, in which people were killed after they surrendered, or Sabra and Shatila massacre where the "militia" went in with the express purpose of killing people. --Leifern 18:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean, nobody is asserting the purpose of the attack was to kill (innocent) people? Haven't you read that Lehi and other groups which participated in the attack are on record as having spoken about the desirability of a mass killing that would spread fear through the Palestinian Arab community?

Apart from which, a massacre is still a massacre whether it's premeditated or not. Gatoclass 18:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Actually, if you've read the article, Gator, you've would have seen that it was raised during the planning stages that fighters and any civilians who didn't leave should be executed, but the commanders of both sides completely rejected the idea. Ra'anan later received approval from Irgun command in Jerusalem to inflate deaths from the battle for propaganda purposes. Guy Montag 04:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It might not hurt to actually read the article and the sources; historians agree now that Lehi's bravado was a propaganda stunt aimed at scaring the Arabs. A massacre is, of course, a massacre, but attempts to call this event as such rest on a rather shaky basis. Pecher 19:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support. The move should be referred to the Arbitration Committee for appropriate disciplinary action. --Ian Pitchford 20:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

disciplinary action? So everytime an editor disagrees with you he should be disciplined? What kind of talk is that? Isarig 21:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the move, but disciplinary action is kinda harsh. --Leifern 21:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The person responsible for the move is on probation for exactly this type of POV rearrangement of articles. --Ian Pitchford 03:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article supports the conclusion that it was a battle during which civilians died, and the article also includes the arguments and evidence for and against the "massacre" theory, starting right in the first sentence. That is a fair approach. Whether there should be a compromise on "incident" can be determined if and when this POV proposal is rejected. 6SJ7 23:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose As per simple convention that articles perjorative terms should be restricted to the terms themselves. This article is not about the term, but about the battle/massacre, and as such, should not be titled in a deliberately inflammatory manner. Bibigon 02:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The article should conform to conventional usage. In addition to the extreme POV title change the deletion of scholarly sources is a very serious matter. --Ian Pitchford 02:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Was that directed at me? I don't believe I've ever edited this article. I certainly haven't deleted scholarly sources... Bibigon 04:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Please stop sabre rattling and assume good faith. If you feel that relevent information was left out you have every right to add it in, but please don't assume anything. I've added as much detail to the subject as I could and other editors have every right to add contextual information. Guy Montag 04:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose as per Leifern. --DLand 04:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose battle is less POV and just as plausible. Violently object to nom for introducing yet another political squabble into WP. Go edit articles on which you don't feel so strongly. - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose because the word "Battle" is in keeping with WP:NPOV whereas "Massacre" is a judgment of what happened when the Irgun, which was never shy about touting its doings such as the King David Hotel bombing or reprisal attacks (List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s in response to the Arabs' Great Uprising), has given an entirely different story, see below Talk:Battle of Deir Yassin#The Irgun's side of the story. Indeed, in the article below it's touted as an "Affair" but to call it a "massacre" while overlooking its context where many other real massacres of Jews were taking place is unfair and makes no sense. IZAK 05:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC):
• Oppose even though I am very sympathetic to the idea that Misplaced Pages should use commonly-used names; I think "Battle of Deir Yassin" is a better name for an article about the totality of the event, which, was much more than a massacre, if there was a massacre at all.Anomalocaris 05:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose While I am not so sure about using "Battle of Deir Yassin", it is surely more neutral than "Massacre", plus this article refers to a wider set of events than what even the exponents of the "Massacre" refer to.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per IZAK. --tickle me 13:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: yet again, ideology trumps history for Misplaced Pages editors. Palmiro | Talk 13:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Calling this incident a battle is both sad and disgusting. It is possible to support the State of Israel and, at the same time, acknowledge the incidents where Israeli policy and action has been reprehensible. As one user stated above, a massacre is a massacre regardless of which parties are involved. Peace in the Middle East. --(Mingus ah um 20:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC))
• Oppose. Regardless of Google and apparently popular terminology, this Misplaced Pages must maintain NPOV. Given that the existence of a massacre at all is in rather serious question here, naming the article that violates said principle. Nysin 00:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Almost all sources agree that arabs were shooting at israelis and israelis were shooting at arabs. That's a battle, not a massacre. A compromise would be renaming it the Deir Yassin Incident, which would be somewhat unconventional, but NPOV. We could put a bit in beginning explaining that some sources use massacre and others use battle.
• Support - Okay, since this poll may shortly close, I'm going to support the renaming of the article. Though I'd like to peruse the literature pertaining to it in more detail, my impression is that this is generally regarded as a massacre by reputable sources. And let's face it, who would know or care about "the battle of Deir Yassin" if not for its association with a notorious massacre?

The Yishuv itself condemned the massacre at the time, as did the Haganah leadership I believe, so if the Israeli leadership itself accepted its status as a crime, why shouldn't Wiki? Gatoclass 06:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that it is absolutely not the case. 81% of the historical books don't have sources or cite secondary sources that don't have sources. Milstein is the most comprehensive composer of information, and he didn't call it a massacre.

The Israeli leadership did not accept its status as a crime as seen that the entire condemnation was used as a political motivated jab. It recanted and apologized years later. Guy Montag 18:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The Irgun's side of the story

Reproduced in full below. Thank you. IZAK 05:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Official version from the Irgun at etzel.org.il

The day after the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, seven Jews were killed, including four passengers on a bus attacked by Arabs on the road to Jerusalem. The acts of hostility grew more frequent, and in December 1947, 184 Jews were killed throughout the country. In January 1948, the situation was particularly difficult. On February 1, a car bomb exploded in Hasolel Street (present-day Hahavatzelet Street) near the Palestine Post building. Three weeks later there was another catastrophe in Jerusalem. Three booby-trapped trucks positioned in Ben-Yehuda Street exploded, destroying four large buildings, killing 50 and injuring more than 100. On March 11, a car bomb exploded in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12 people, injuring 44, and causing great damage.

Arab acts of hostility had reached their peak by March, moreover, Arabs now controlled all the inter-urban routes. The road to Jerusalem was blocked, settlements in the Galilee and the Negev were also cut off and daily attacks were perpetrated on convoys. In the four months since the UN resolution, some 850 Jews had been killed throughout the country, most of them in Jerusalem or on the road to the city.

Operation Nachshon was launched on April 6, 1948, with the aim of opening up the road to Jerusalem. The village of Deir Yassin was included on the list of Arab villages to be occupied as part of that operation. Indeed, while fierce fighting was going on at Kastel, Arab reinforcements flooded onto the battlefield through Deir Yassin, which helped to drive back the Jewish occupying force.

When the Haganah command learned of the plan of the Irgun and Lehi to conquer Deir Yassin, David Shaltiel, Haganah Commander in Jerusalem, asked them to coordinate the timing of the operation with the scheduled renewed assault on Kastel. He despatched identical letters to Mordechai Raanan (Irgun Commander in Jerusalem) and Yehoshua Zetler (Lehi Commander in Jerusalem), in which he gave their operation his approval:

To: Shapira (code-name of Zetler)

From: District Commander

I have learned that you intend to carry out an operation against Deir Yassin. I would like to call your attention to the fact that the conquest and continued occupation of Deir Yassin is one of the stages in our overall plan. I have no objection to your carrying out the operation on condition that you are capable of holding on to it. If you are incapable of doing so, I caution you against blowing up the village, since this will lead to the flight of the inhabitants and subsequent occupation of the ruins and the abandoned homes by enemy forces. This will make things difficult rather than contributing to the general campaign, and reoccupation of the site will entail heavy casualties for our men. An additional argument I would like to cite is that if enemy forces are drawn to the place, this will disrupt the plan to establish an aerodrome there.

On April 2, 1948, the inhabitants of Deir Yassin began sniping at the Jewish Quarters of Bet Hakerem and Yefe Nof. According to reports by the Shai (Haganah Intelligence), fortifications were being constructed in the village and a large quantity of arms being stockpiled. Several days before the attack on Deir Yassin, the presence of foreign fighters was reported, including Iraqi soldiers and irregular forces. An Arab research study conducted at Bir Zeit University (near Ramallah) relates that the men of Deir Yassin took an active part in violent acts against Jewish targets and that many of the men of the village fought in the battle for Kastel, together with Abd-el-Kadr el-Husseini. The report also stated that trenches had been dug at the entry to the village, and that more than 100 men had been trained and equipped with rifles and Bren guns. A local guard force had been set up and 40 inhabitants guarded the village every night. (Knaana Sherif, The Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948 - Deir Yassin. Bir Zeit University, Documentation and Research Department 1987).

GOING INTO BATTLE

On Thursday, April 8, about 70 Irgun fighters assembled at the Etz Hayim base (at the entrance to Jerusalem). This was the first time that so large a number of underground fighters had gathered openly, without fear of British policemen or soldiers. The atmosphere was optimistic - after four months of attack, retaliation was finally in sight. The fact that two underground movements were acting together enhanced the sense of security and solidarity, and the password chosen was 'Fighting Solidarity' (Ahdut Lohemet).

Raanan, Commander of the Irgun in Jerusalem, opened the meeting and explained that the conquest of Deir Yassin had both military and political objectives. From the military viewpoint, the aim was not only to liberate the western quarters of Jerusalem from the threat of Deir Yassin, but finally to seize the initiative. It was essential to move from defence to attack and to transfer the fighting to enemy territory. The conquest would also raise the morale of the Jewish population of Jerusalem and restore their self-confidence.

Politically speaking, it would represent a change of approach and constitute a turning point in the war: no further retaliation operations, but from that point on conquest with the aim of holding on to an area. The Jewish people and the entire world would realize that the Jews were not going to give up Jerusalem and, if necessary, would take it by force. (It will be recalled that, according to the UN resolution, Jerusalem was to come under international rule). Raanan added that since the operation was an act of conquest and not of reprisal, the fighters had to avoid inflicting needless injury on Arabs. In particular, he cautioned against harming old people, women and children. Moreover, any Arab who surrendered, including combatants, was to be taken prisoner and not harmed in any way.

In order to prevent unnecessary casualties, it had been decided that the strike force would be preceded by an armored car equipped with a loudspeaker, which would enter the village ahead of the troops. The villagers would be informed that the village was surrounded by Irgun and Lehi fighters, and would be exhorted to leave for Ein Karem or to surrender. They would also be informed that the road to Ein Karem was open and safe.

At 2 a.m. the Irgun fighters, commanded by Ben-Zion Cohen (Giora), were driven from the Etz Hayim base to Bet Hakerem. The force moved into the wadi (riverbed), where the squads split up, each squad climbing up the terraced slope to its allotted field of action.

The Lehi unit assembled at Givat Shaul and proceeded from there towards the target. Some of the force advanced behind the armored car which was proceeding along the path towards the center of the village.

Close to 4:45 am, the village guards spotted suspicious movements. One of them called out in Arabic: 'Mahmoud'; an Irgun fighter, mishearing the cry, thought that someone had shouted the password 'Ahdut' (Solidarity) and responded with the second half of the password in Hebrew: 'Lohemet'. The Arabs opened fire and shooting commenced from all sides.

The armored car advanced along the path and, on reaching the outskirts of the village, encountered a trench and was forced to come to a halt. The loudspeaker was switched on and the message was read out. Heavy fire was directed at the armored car from the adjacent houses and the fighters trapped inside had to be rescued. Injuries were reported, and a first-aid unit set out from Givat Shaul towards the armored car.

The other units began their attack, but Arab resistance was strong, and every house became an armed fortress. Fierce fighting was conducted from house to house. Many of the attackers were injured in the first onslaught, including a number of commanders who had been advancing ahead of their units.

After the center of the village had been occupied, all the wounded were concentrated in one of the courtyards and ways were sought to evacuate them. It turned out that the road to Givat Shaul was impassable because of gunfire from the mukhtar's (local leader) house, which stood on a hilltop overlooking the area.

Since the fighting was taking place in a built-up area, the pace was slow, and both sides suffered heavy losses. In order to silence the source of gunfire, the fighters were forced to use hand-grenades, and in some cases even to blow up houses. There was firing from all sides and half the attackers were put out of action. On top of this, the remaining fighters suffered a shortage of ammunition.

A report on the course of the battle was transmitted by courier to headquarters at Givat Shaul. When word started coming in about the number of casualties and ammunition shortage, several Lehi people went to the Schneller camp and asked a Palmach unit to come to the attackers aid. After receiving the consent of the brigade HQ, the Palmach troops set out in an armored car, equipped with a machine-gun and a two-inch mortar. On arrival in the village, they fired several shells and machine-gun rounds at the mukhtar's house. At that very moment, without prior co-ordination with the Palmach, Yosef Avni charged and captured the mukhtar's house. With the mukhtar's house occupied, firing ceased and the occupation of the village was completed.

When the fighting was over, it was discovered that hundreds of villagers had retreated to Ein Karem, taking advantage of the fact that the road was open. Those who remained in the village surrendered and were taken prisoner. The prisoners, mostly women and children, were loaded onto trucks and taken to East Jerusalem, where they were handed over to their Arab brethren.

Deir Yassin - The Village After the Attack

Word of the occupation of Deir Yassin spread through the city, and was viewed positively by the Jews of Jerusalem. Not only could the Jewish residents of the western quarters now breath freely, but they felt proud to have finally taken the initiative. The capture of the village marked the completion of the breakthrough of Operation Nachshon, and instilled new hope in the hearts of Jerusalemites. The slogan 'Ahdut Lohemet', which had grabbed the attention of the Jewish community in Jerusalem, reflected the turning point in the response to Arab aggression. In the days that followed, crowds flocked to the Etz Hayim base to express their solidarity with the Irgun fighters.

FACTS AND COMMENTARIES

So much has been written and said about what happened at Deir Yassin that the battle waged on the morning of April 9 has become known as the 'Deir Yassin Massacre'. It is important to analyze the events and to distinguish between fact and fiction.

Massacre means the killing of defenceless people. The 1929 slaughter of the Jews of Hebron by Arabs in the middle of the night was a massacre. When Arab workers at the Haifa refinieries assailed their Jewish co-workers in February 1948, murdering more than 40 of them, a massacre can be said to have taken place. In both cases, the killings were premeditated. The brutal murder of settlers at Kfar Etzion by Arab Legion soldiers in May 1948, after the defenders had surrendered and were defenceless, was also a massacre.

But Deir Yassin?

Firstly, strict orders were given in advance to the fighters not to harm the elderly, women and children. It was also stated explicitly that any Arab who surrendered was to be taken prisoner.

Secondly, an unprecedented action took place at Deir Yassin - a loudspeaker was installed on an armored car to inform the population that the road to Ein Karem was open and safe, and that whoever left the village would not be harmed. The strike force was actually prepared to forfeit the surprise element of battle in order to issue these instructions and thus to prevent Arab civilian casualty.

The Arabs do not deny the use of a loudspeaker; indeed, an Arab League publication entitled "Israeli Aggression" states, inter alia:

"On the night of April 9, 1948, the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin was surprised by a loudspeaker, which called on the population to evacuate it immediately."

Thirdly, it is universally agreed that there was bitter fighting at Deir Yassin. More than 100 Arab fighters were well equipped and had large amounts of ammunition. The Arabs occupied fortified positions in stone buildings, while the attackers were exposed to enemy fire. The fierce gunfire directed from the houses forced the attackers to charge, throw grenades and, in several cases, to blow up houses. As a consequence, women and children were among the dead.

According to all the documents and testimonies, it is clear today that fewer than one hundred Arabs were killed at Deir Yassin, and not the 240 as published. Moreover, this was the first instance in the War of Independence where battle had taken place in a built-up area, and such fighting typically claims numerous victims. For the same reason, the number of Irgun and Lehi members injured by Arab fire was 35% of the force (5 dead and 35 wounded).

All the Arab casualties were killed in the course of the fighting. Villagers - men, women and children - who surrendered, were taken prisoner and came to no harm. When the firing ceased, they were transported by truck to East Jerusalem and handed over to their Arab brethren.

The Deir Yassin affair had a strong impact on the course of the War of Independence; the battle was summed up as follows in the "History of the War of Independence", prepared by the History Division of the IDF General Staff:

The Deir Yassin affair was publicized throughout the world as the 'Deir Yassin Massacre', causing great harm to the reputation of the Yishuv. All the Arab propaganda channels disseminated the story at the time, and continue to do so to the present day. But the battle indubitably served to expedite the collapse of the Arab hinterland in the period which followed. More than the deed itself, this was achieved by the publicity it received from Arab spokesmen. They wanted to demonstrate to their people the savagery of the Jews and to instill in them a spirit of religious fervor. In fact, however, they intimidated and alarmed them. They themselves now admit their mistake.

Hazen Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, was interviewed for the BBC television series "Israel and the Arabs: the 50-year conflict." He describes an encounter with Deir Yassin survivors and Palestinian leaders, including Hussein Khalidi, the secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem's Old City.

"I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story," recalled Nusseibeh, now living in Amman. He said, "We must make the most of this". So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities."

A Deir Yassin survivor, identified as Abu Mahmud, said the villagers protested at the time.

"We said, 'there was no rape.' Khalidi said, 'We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews'."

In an arlicle "Deir Yassin a casualty of guns and propaganda", by Paul Holmes (Reuters) (http://www.metimes.com/issue98-16/reg/deir.html) he interviewing Mohammed Radwan, who was a resident of Deir Yassi in 1948, and fought for several hours before ruing out of bullets.

"I know when I speak that God is up there and God knows the truth and God will not forgive the liars", said Radwan, who puts the number of villagers killed at 93, listed in his own handwriting. "There were no rapes. It's all lies. There were no pregnant women who were slit open. It was propaganda that... Arabs put out so Arab the armies would invade" he said. "They ended up expelling people from all of Palestine on the rumor of Deir Yassin."

In the book "War Without End", by Anton La Guardia (Thomas Dunne Books, N.Y. 2000) we find the following: "Just before Israel's 50th anniversary celebration, I went to Deir Yassin with Ayish Zeidan, known as Haj Ayish, who had lived in the village as a teenager.

'We heard shooting. My mother did not want us to look out of the window. I fled with my sister, but my mother and my other sisters could not make it. They hid in the cellar for four days and then ran away.'

He said he never believed that more than 110 people had died at Deir Yassin, and accused Arab leaders of exaggerating the atrocities.

'There had been no rape', he said. 'The Arab radio at the time talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true. I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters.'"

Comments:

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Comment - it would seem rather pointless to rename this page "Deir Yassin massacre" when in fact almost none of the article deals with evidence of the massacre itself. The page would need to be extensively revised, with the massacre covered in much greater detail, for the title to be appropriate to the contents.

Whether the facts of the matter would support such a change, I'm not in a position to say as it's a long time since I read about this incident and I'd have to assure myself that its status as a massacre has been widely accepted by appropriate sources. My impression from past reading is that that is the case, but I'd want to confirm it to my satisfaction first. Gatoclass 05:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment It was considered a massacre by some polemecists before new evidence and interviews came out between the years of 1987-1997. The new information point to the fact that there was no clear cut defined massacre, but a complex set of deaths during a battle mixed with much hype and progaganda to inflate caulties for war and morale purposes. All the sources check out. Times have changed, new historical evidence has been found, interviews have been given and texts, contexts and backgrounds have been researched, and they are all listed in the article.

• Just because the hebrew version has not caught up to this version does not make the hebrew version superior or more factual.
• Everything written in this article is sourced. The flow of the sources simply do not support the evidence of a massacre. Other editors are free to add factual evidence supporting mass killing of unarmed civilians after the end of the battle. If no such evidence exists, or if this evidence is not compelling enough the article should stay right here.
• The name of the article is intrinsically tied to the content of the article, and the article simply doesn't support such a clear cut name.
• Allegations of a massacre are listed in the introduction.

Guy Montag 07:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Either this article has to be renamed and expanded (as noted above, there is hardly anything about the massacre itself in the article) OR: a new article will be created, called the "Deir Yassin massacre". (I will later try to post a more detailed survey about what is lacking in this article, irregardless of name of article.) Also, according to Massacre: in Guatemala, the definition is: "A massacre shall be considered the execution of five or more people, in the same place, as part of the same operation and whose victims were in an indefensible state." And: "In Colombia, the term is applied to the murder of half a dozen or more at one time." Nowhere does it say that the killings have to take place after or outside a battle in order for it to be defined as a massacre. And does anybody seriously deny that at least 5 or 6 people in "an indefensible state" were killed at Deir Yassin? Or is there another "value scale" when it comes to Arabs? See also Munich Olympics massacre= 12 killed (+5 Black September members), Ma'alot massacre =21 killed, Passover massacre=30 killed. If this stay as it is (or is moved to the Deir Yassin incident, will the Munich Olympics massacre then become the Munich Olympics incident? Regards, Huldra 19:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment-According to that definition, any battle in a populated area is a massacre because civilians will undoubtably be killed. It must have strictual context or it simply becomes a polemical term used by one side against another. The definition of a massacre is when and why the victims were killed. Were they civilians killed accidently and without premedition during a battle or with premeditated orders during a cessation of hostilities or simply during an absense of hostilities? If there was no organization to their killing then it can't be catagorized as a massacre. Finally, all the examples you listed unequivecally fit the definition of a massacre because all targetted were non combatant civilians (some were sleeping children, others wedding goers) in peace time, hence I neither understand your reason nor see any compelling reason why you should support it out of some erreneously applied and unwarranted moral equivelence. Guy Montag 21:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Your "definition" of "massacre" is pure OR. Please quote some other than User:Guy Montag. (Btw, User:Huldra completely disagree with User:Guy Montag on his def. of "massacre", (e.g about the need to be "planned"), but that is really completely uninteresting.) Regards, Huldra 16:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and as such, it documents. It does not rewrite history, nor does it try to alter names of events. At least that is the ideal. As in this case, it is know under the Deir Yassin massacre, and as such, wikipedia should use that. If the insights in this have changed, well, it will start changing in the scholary literature, and we can start changing it when it has changed. Until that time, it should stay under Deir Yassin massacre. -- Kim van der Linde 00:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment- I did not rewrite anything. Everything is from reputable sources. I simply updated the article with modern sources that were not appropriately used in the previous article. Who determines the scholarly literature? Google? I have written an article using historical sources, many of which were already present in the previous article and others that have only come out recently. If other editors believe that the article is missing information, by all means add some yourself, but the article in its current stage does not support the clear cut propogation of a massacre. If other editors actually have something to add to the article that brings up such information, then there would be a point to this discussion. As of now, I have chosen an npov title for a battle that happened between Arab irregulars and the IZL-Lehi paramilitary units within the village of Deir Yassin. hence, I urge everyone who believes that this article is incomplete to add their own sourced information, instead of sticking to obsolete titles and debunked sources. Guy Montag 02:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Your sources are not so "modern" Guy. They are mostly from a 1987 study by an Israeli university, and Uri Milstein's 1991 book. Benny Morris' book "Righteous Victims" is much more recent and his conclusions scarcely get a mention here.

What is more to the point though, is just how one-sided this article is. The story is told almost entirely from the Israeli POV, with numerous quotes from Israelis. Claims regarding the massacre itself are mostly confined to a single paragraph, which is then followed by several more sections of "counterclaims" and other material casting doubt on the massacre. Where Palestinians are quoted, they are mostly quoted when their comments support the Israeli case, such as the denials of rape.

I went back and looked at this page from a year ago and the article looked to be much more balanced then, with more quotes supporting the existence of the massacre, including from the Zionist leadership at the time, which itself condemned it. I think regardless of what this page ends up being called, it needs at the very least to have some balance restored. Gatoclass 04:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but the previous article was a chaotic mishmash of out of context quotes, badly constructed sentences and simply false information that after I did some research, made me question how they could even have gotten there. Take for example the Yiftach quote. In the previous article it had absolutely no context, and many other quotes that only discuss the pov of people who visited the area after the battle. Benny Morris doesn't actually use recent information, just rehashed claims by Catling and others, all debunked. But once again, you are free to add any information you believe will conform to npov. I never claimed that this article is complete, just that it is meticulously sourced and an improvement on the previous article. So far, I haven't seen any edits by others. Once again, instead of moving this article, I urge everyone to start editing it and when all the information is applied to come back here and discuss moving it, but not before. Guy Montag 08:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't intend to endorse the previous version, as I didn't in fact read it all, but just had a quick browse through it and noticed a lot of quotes about the massacre itself have gone missing in the current version.

My essential point is that the article as it stands is told almost entirely from the Israeli POV, or from the POV that there was no massacre. And I have my doubts that this is an accurate reflection of how this event is currently viewed by reputable sources. Because ultimately it's not about what you or I think, but what such sources have to say about the event that the article should reflect. Gatoclass 11:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Maybe this has already been fixed, but I disagree that the article is unbalanced. I think it would be beneficial if we add Morris' quote from RV that DY became such a legend because all sides benefitted from the hype. I'll try to dig it up if no one beats me to it. ←Humus sapiens 09:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment Zionists always try to cover-up their crimes. Robin Hood 1212 16:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion: Well, it's been five days and the yeas outnumber the nays 2:1. Homey 05:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, its been three days and the vote started after a period of quiet when no discussion took place. I would give it another week. Guy Montag 05:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's settle on four. The vote started on 8 July, it's now the 12th. We'll give it another 36 hours. Homey 05:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages works by consensus, not by voting. 2:1 is most certainly not a consensus. Pecher 19:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

This page is listed at WP:RM, which gives normally 5 days, but is backlogged (and I am the main cleaner there at the moment).-- Kim van der Linde 20:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Question. For the sake of process, should the "main cleaner" performing moves be proposing moves, and voting and commenting on them? Looks like a possible conflict of interest here. HGB 00:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. It is not to us to define massacre, and when something is a massacre. It is to the WP:RS to define that (please show them to me), and if those are unclear, we should use he commonly used name. -- Kim van der Linde 21:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Media query related to this article, and to the dispute over the name of this article

Hi, I'm a journalist writing a story on how contentious topics in the Middle East are dealt with on Misplaced Pages. I stopped by the Deir Yassin article to see how Misplaced Pages handles it, and I see that here on the talk page you're in the middle of resolving a pretty fundamental issue...what to call the article! If anyone is willing to discuss Misplaced Pages's Middle East articles with me, please e-mail me with the "e-mail this user" function on my userpage. Thanks! Krinkle99 22:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to clarify a bit more, which newspaper for example? -- Kim van der Linde 01:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this kinda sounds like some kind of spam.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not spam. I'm honestly writing a story on Misplaced Pages's collaborative editing process, and would genuinely like to speak with anyone with experience editing Middle East-related articles. Regards, Krinkle99 13:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I accept that, but without a bit more information, I am not going to help out. -- Kim van der Linde 13:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I e-mailed you, Kim, and if anyone else would like information about the story I'm doing, feel free to e-mail me. Krinkle99 14:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Voting closed

Well, I think a clear consensus has been reached. Time to end the voting and get on with improving the actual article. Guy Montag 00:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I will do that later this evening. -- Kim van der Linde 01:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

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