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This talk page is for discussing the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of the theory of Evolution. For that, please visit talk.origins or similar forums. Newcomers to Misplaced Pages and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of common ones here. Misplaced Pages policy notes for new editors: A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents opponents of the theory of evolution in an unsympathetic light and violates Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View The parts of this policy that apply directly to this article are: Pseudoscience and related fringe theories Undue weight Making necessary assumptions Giving "equal validity". These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No original research and Cite your sources. Tempers can flare here. All contributors are asked to please respect Misplaced Pages's code of civility, including No personal attacks and Abide by consensus. See Misplaced Pages talk page guidelines. Important pointers for new editors: This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'. Please use edit summaries. If you make a suggestion that does not align with a policy, you can expect a pointer to the policy. This is not meant to be rude, but to help smooth the process of building the encyclopedia. If you receive such a pointer, you should take the time to read and understand the policy before re-raising the issue. If you persist in objections to content because of a refusal to accept the consensus or even an inability to understand the issue, your behavior is considered disruptive editing. You should expect your discussions to be archived or userfied, and you may be subject to blocking and sanctions. Please peruse the FAQ or search the archives below, to ensure that you are not rehashing old topics. Old topics resurrected without new evidence are likely to be ignored and archived quickly. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

view · edit Frequently asked questions These questions arise frequently on this talk page. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Is this article unfairly biased in favor of evolution? A1: There have been arguments over the years about the article's neutrality and concerns that it violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The NPOV policy does not require all points of view to be represented as equally valid, but it does require us to represent them. The policy requires that we present the theory of evolution from the point of view of disinterested philosophers, biologists and other scientists, and that we also include the views of evolution proponents and opponents. We should not present minority views as though they are majority ones, but we should also make sure the minority views are correctly described and not just criticized. Q2: Should Intelligent Design (ID) be equated with creationism? A2: ID is a form of creationism, and many sources argue that it is identical. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and Phillip E. Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept. Not everyone agrees with this. For example, philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that intelligent design is very different from creation science, in that it does not depend on distortion of the evidence, or on the assumption that it is immune to empirical evidence. It depends only on the idea that the hypothesis of a designer makes sense and that it is not assigned a vanishingly small probability (see "Public Education and Intelligent Design", Philosophy and Public Affairs, Vol. 36, no. 2, 2008). Although intelligent design proponents do not name the designer, they make it clear that the designer is the Christian god. In drafts of the 1989 high-school level textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivations of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design". Taken together, the Kitzmiller ruling, statements of ID's main proponents, the nature of ID itself, and the history of the movement, it becomes apparent—Discovery Institute's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—that ID is a form of creationism, modified to appear more secular than it really is. This is in line with the Discovery Institute's stated strategy in the Wedge Document. Q3: Should ID be characterized as science? A3: The majority of scientists state ID should not be characterized as science. This was the finding of Judge Jones during the Kitzmiller hearing, and is a position supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Scientists say that ID cannot be regarded as scientific theory because it is untestable even in principle. A scientific theory predicts the outcome of experiments. If the predicted outcome is not observed, the theory is false. There is no experiment which can be constructed which can disprove intelligent design. Unlike a true scientific theory, it has absolutely no predictive capability. It doesn't run the risk of being disproved by objective experiment. Notes and references ^ Phillip Johnson: "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." Johnson 2004. Christianity.ca. Let's Be Intelligent About Darwin. "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy." Johnson 1996. World Magazine. Witnesses For The Prosecution. "So the question is: "How to win?" That's when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing"—the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." Johnson 2000. Touchstone magazine. Berkeley's Radical An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson "I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science."…"Now the way that I see the logic of our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?"…"I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves." Johnson 1999. Reclaiming America for Christ Conference. How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won Dembski: "Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory," Touchstone Magazine. Volume 12, Issue4: July/August, 1999 Wedge Document Discovery Institute, 1999. "embers of the national ID movement insist that their attacks on evolution aren't religiously motivated, but, rather, scientific in nature." … "Yet the express strategic objectives of the Discovery Institute; the writings, careers, and affiliations of ID's leading proponents; and the movement’s funding sources all betray a clear moral and religious agenda." Inferior Design Chris Mooney. The American Prospect, August 10, 2005. "ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief." Expert Witness Report Barbara Forrest Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, April, 2005. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., pp. 31 – 33. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., 4. Whether ID is Science, p. 87

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	Rejection of evolution by religious groups was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Outside the United States

Per your request: How is the statement from the report (Qualitative differences between naïve and scientific theories of evolution) that I referenced taken out of context? Here is the last paragraph (from that report) in toto.

Devout atheists like Dawkins (1987) speculate that disbelief in evolution stems from a misunderstanding of Darwin’s theory, for anyone who grasps the explanatory power of natural selection cannot help but affirm its validity. However, studies that have measured both participants’ belief in natural selection and participants’ understanding of natural selection (e.g., Demastes et al., 1995; Lawson & Worsnop, 1992; Sinatra, Southerland, McConaughy, & Demastes, 2003) have found no significant correlation between the two. Consistent with these studies, participants in the present study were no more likely to endorse the statement “natural selection is the best explanation for how a species adapts to its environment” if they understood natural selection than if they did not. Indeed, 12 of the 19 transformationists endorsed the validity of Darwin’s theory of evolution, and 1 of the 11 variationists denied the factuality of evolution altogether. If participants in the present study are at all representative of participants in the evolutionist- creationist debates waged in local courtrooms, newspapers, and school board meetings, one must wonder which theory of evolution—variationism or transformationism— is actually being debated.

Personally, I don't see how "studies that have measured both participants’ belief in natural selection and participants’ understanding of natural selection ... have found no significant correlation between the two." is cherry picking, but I am willing to be educated. Dan Watts (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought that was an interesting blog. I think what's missing in your statement is that the the people surveyed are not experts; their "understanding" is what you would get from a brief survey in a course on biology. I'm not sure why you put it in Outside the United States; a better place for it might be Science education. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I note that, in an edit summary, @SkepticalRaptor calls the use of a blog as a reliable source "silly". In this case, I disagree. USERG states that "Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications." This blog is hosted by the Cultural Cognition Project at Yale Law School, a group whose members do research on this issue; and much of the blog is summarizing material that is published in scholarly journals. RockMagnetist (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The remark was put where the graphic was placed, and this quote is from Qualitative differences between naïve and scientific theories of evolution in the Journal of Cognitive Psychology, not the blog. Dan Watts (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It is unlikely that the tabulated poll results were only responses from experts. Dan Watts (talk) 10:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

So,

1) The sentence excised is supported by the reference.

2) It is germane to the subject (people's opinions).

3) Why is consensus in this referenced statement necessary? Are some facts BETTER than others (Orwellian Misplaced Pages?)

Dan Watts (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

At the very least, this is the wrong place for this information. This study was conducted by Harvard Summer School study pool. That being said, one study of 42 students is hardly definitive, considering that the average amount of biology classes taken by the group was 1.5 (range0-4), only 76% of participants claimed to be familiar with Darwin’s theory of evolution, the subjects were asked to answer in accordance with DARWIN'S theory (excluding Lamarck, ect.), and the author himself states "...the sample included two anti-evolutionists (most likely creationists) and at least thirteen students skeptical of natural selection." Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

What do you think is the average amount of biology classes taken by the public that was polled, or the percentage familiar with Darwin's theory, or those likely creationists or skeptical of natural selection? Dan Watts (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Or how about “misconceptions about even the basic principles of Darwin's theory of evolution are extremely robust, even after years of education in biology”. Quoting Ferrari and Chi (The nature of naive explanations of natural selection. Int J Sci Educ. 1998;20:1231–1256. doi:10.1080/0950069980201005) from T. Ryan Gregory's Understanding Natural Selection: Essential Concepts and Common Misconceptions Evo Edu Outreach (2009) 2:156–175 doi:10.1007/s12052-009-0128-1 where he references 42 tests, surveys of tests, and interviews of students age 12 through graduate university level as well as science educators. prospective teachers and scientists. Would that be a more comprehensive reference (which appears to have a similar conclusion)? Thoughts? Dan Watts (talk) 04:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The author goes on to state, however, that "Our thesis for explaining students' failure to understand this concept, or evolution in general, is not that they necessarily fail to understand individual Darwinian principles; rather, they often fail to understand the ontological features of equilibration processes, of which evolution is one instance.". The studies you provided also focus on peoples answers in a Darwinian evolution (variationism) versus Lamarckian evolution (transformationism) sense. In other words, they got good scores for "Darwinian" answers and bad scores for "Lamarckian" ones. It's not that some of them can't explain evolution, it's that the ones that see evolution as event based resort to a mostly obsolete form of it (Lamarckian) as a framework to reason, because Lamarckian evolution IS more event based. I think this would make a good addition to some other articles. Very interesting. I'm not sure why it would belong in THIS article, however. Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 05:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The presence of the poll by countries graphic appears to give a message that beliefs concerning evolution are driving (or are strongly correlated with) science understanding and science literacy. The studies references point out that ain't (arsent per Brother Dave Gardner) so. By the way, the 'obsolete' Lamarckian answers are wrong, not just obsolete. Dan Watts (talk) 09:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

If you're interested, search for "Inheritance of Acquired Behaviour Adaptations and Brain Gene Expression in Chickens" or "Inheritance of acquired traits in plants: Reinstatement of Lamarck" to name a couple, or just read the Misplaced Pages entry on Epigenetic inheritance for evidence for Lamarckian evolution. That being said, none of these studies have anything to do with creationism. They analyzed responses in a event process versus a equilibration process, not in a creation versus evolution context. Since this is the creation-evolution controversy article, I don't really see the relevance. Thoughts? Mophedd (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

SO:

1) Remarks (facts) presented (and reverted by someone who hasn't deigned to enter THIS discussion) are supported by published papers, including quotes from aforementioned papers.

2) The remarks (categorized as edit warring) address the information contained in the poll graphic (apparently appropriate since no approbation of IT is seen).

Thoughts? Dan Watts (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Not relevant to the section Outside the United States. Might be relevant for an article on biology education, but would need a connection to the topic for the Science education section of this article. Do the studies discuss or provide a connection to the topic of this article? Vsmith (talk) 13:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, relevant to the poll graphic which was placed in Outside the United States. Disagree? Dan Watts (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Those references do not support the graphic and are not relevant to the section. Vsmith (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Those references DESCRIBE what you cannot reasonably infer from the graphic. How is that not relevant to the graphic? Dan Watts (talk) 16:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Sez who? Do the refs discuss the graph? Seems akin to WP:OR or WP:SYN if not. Also agree with what User:Mophedd said above ↑. Vsmith (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Claims of discrimination against creationists and doubters of Darwin

I have added a reference to Bergman's claims of academic discrimination against creationists and other sceptics of neo-Darwinism.. Cpsoper (talk) 13:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I most certainly do not agree with Jerry Bergman's book. That being said it is a valid reference for the pseudo-science of creationists. I am leaving the change and the reference for now. A more lengthy discussion in this talk page might be required. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 15:22, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, the reference had been removed, the reason cited, is given as

'Reference to a small-press book that claims academia discriminates against creationists is non-notable. There are such books about most fringe beliefs -- anti-vaxers, birthers, and countless others all claim they are being discriminated against'.

I don't think this justifies the removal. First notability does not apply to content within a page WP:NNC. The page is about Creation and Evolution, not vaccination, home birth or any other movement. What matters more is whether the inclusion is WP:UNDUE. Whether the book comes from a small press or not, Jerry Bergman is a reliable source for creationists' and Darwin doubters' opinions about discrimination, and his documentation is published, referenced and detailed. The issue he raises itself might be disputed but can hardly be properly described as irrelevant to this section. On the contary, his claim is that it is highly relevant: the disturbing premise of this book documents widespread discrimination by Darwin loyalists against Darwin skeptics in academia and within the scientific community. Multiple case studies expose the tactics used to destroy the careers of Darwin skeptics, denying them earned degrees and awards, tenure, and other career benefits offered to non-skeptics. The book exposes how freedom of speech and freedom of expression are widely promoted as not applicable to Darwin doubters, and reveals the depth and extent of hostility and bigotry exhibited towards those who would dare to question Darwinism. The book also shows how even the slightest hint of sympathy for Darwin Doubters often results in a vigorous and rabid response from those who believe such sympathies represent an attack on science itself. Cpsoper (talk) 15:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not doubt that creationists claim that academia discriminates against them. The question is whether this claim is an important part of what creationists believe or is, as it seems to me, non-notable. However, will leave it for other editors to decide. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:21, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

If it's significant to the topic, it should be simple to find a reliable secondary source discussing the claim and how it has been received by the mainstream. Please do that, and discuss before re-adding this claim from a fringe source. . dave souza, talk 22:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I am leaning towards Dave Souza's solution. We need another source to confirm or deny statement. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 00:15, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I've added a reference from a book review from a well recognised general Christian review website, this is no fringe opinion.Cpsoper (talk) 01:10, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I've noticed another user removed your statement, citing not a reliable source. Please consult: WP:REF WP:RS to understand reliable sources. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 09:24, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, having had lengthy discussions about RS before, the page you mean to direct me to is WP:RS. This source is reliable for general Christian opinion, it is editorialised and not self published. There is no justification for removing it or the quote.

Remember the issue in question is not whether Creationism is a fringe opinion, but whether this report about Darwin sceptics in general receiving a rough time from their academic peers, in a way that has sometimes transgressed proper bounds, is representative of the community it stands for, the secondary source discusses and validates the first as a view fairly widely held by Creationists and other Darwin sceptics. As there has been disagreement, I shall request comment from external editors on this specific question. Cpsoper (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Seems a bit obvious that article is missing such discrimination is charged, though I would have put the movie Expelled as a more prominent thing to cite. External examples mentioning this particular book are at an article in Toledo Blade and in books God Did It or Persuaded by the Evidence. Markbassett (talk) 17:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Claims of discrimination against Darwin sceptics

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the section on public policy include a reference to concerns about the silencing of dissidents? Cpsoper (talk) 12:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• I dunno Urrrk... I needed more coffee when when I sent a link earlier, you are correct it was WP:RS. At any rate... from reliable sources, I found a passage that caught my attention. "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." That being said, with the book reference AND the website as a reliable source (BIASED, but reliable) and the quote used is quite accurate, "Creationists claim there is evidence of a widespread discrimination..." etc etc.. As much as I hate to admit it, based on Misplaced Pages's rules, the edit should be allowed. I personally think young Earth creationists are completely irrational and only look at the evidence that they choose to see, and choose to ignore any evidence that contradicts their own claims, but all that being said, according to Misplaced Pages rules the edit should remain. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose The specific edit in this case is "Creationists claim there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution." To be accurate, the statement would have to be "Dr Jerry Bergman, in his book Slaughter of the Dissidents, claims that there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution.". The source is a reliable source just not for the edit in question. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Let me just point out that this article is already longer than the article on evolution.Rick Norwood (talk) 14:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This isn't really notable and thereby not worth including in such a long article. Any fringe group, for example, homeopathy advocates or Hollow Earth proponents, can (and many do) claim discrimination as the reason their ideas aren't widely accepted. Overwhelmingly, though, these ideas are fringe and non-notable; they shouldn't and aren't treated as equally valid to genuine scientific objections to the theories in question. This seems no different. Rwenonah (talk) 15:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Rwenonah but as I stated previously, I am quite biased. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 16:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the question here is whether such claims of discrimination are discussed in non-creationist sources. It is par for the course for proponents of fringe ideas to claim discrimination, but little weight needs to be attached to them unless they are reported elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the the "little weight" statement, however as I stated above, the quote from WP:RS "...reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." is giving me pause. Would an in-text attribution to the source be sufficient? CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 19:27, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Any assertion that there was discrimination would have to be clearly attributed as opinion. And given that it is a claim from a fringe source, we should include a response from the mainstream. If such a response could not be found, I'd suggest that it would probably be evidence that the initial claim wasn't significant in the first place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:04, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Exactly my point. If discrimination is a non-notable idea mainly held by a fringe minority, it shouldn't be given weight in the article. This claim doesn't seem significant, given it was published by a small-scale Christian press and garnered, it appears, virtually zero attention outside Christian circles, and little inside. Rwenonah (talk) 20:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm in full agreement. Since I have stated previously that my opinion was very biased, I am grateful to have other opinions. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support I have reviewed this after seeing the notice at the Reliable Sources Notice Board. Bergman's book clearly meets all the requirements of being a reliable source. Furthermore, the widely distributed and discussed documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed makes the same argument. The fact that most scientists agree with evolution does not undermine the assertion that scientists who have, or might consider, voicing doubts or criticisms might feel discriminated against for doing so. Indeed, the fear of criticism from an overwhelming number of people who disagree with you is pretty intimidating in any field. I don't think it deserves much, if any space, in a general article on evolution, but it certainly deserves considerable coverage in an article on the evolution-creation controversy precisely because the level of consensus makes any questioning of the consensus controversial.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 22:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is questioning the reliability of the sources - the question is how significant are the opinions expressed in them. If there is a controversy involved, there must of necessity be two sides of the dispute - so where is the response from mainstream science? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Bergman's book gets 2130 hits on Google. While we shouldn't fall into the Wp:GHits trap, this is a minuscule number and reflects the equally minuscule amount of attention the book has gotten, even inside creationist circles. Outside of them, Bergman is generally treated as a quack, and the mainstream scientific community certainly didn't feel it worth responding (or, more likely, even notice) his book. Rwenonah (talk) 23:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

How are you running your search, Rwenonah? I get 13,400, and the 29th screen of results is still all about the book, nothing else.Cpsoper (talk) 21:08, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Depends - In the context Bergman's book is not a reliable source. If significant and unjustified systemic discrimination of creationists exists in academia then it certainly warrants a mention, but only if that position can be supported with less dubious sources than Bergman. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

It is a reliable source for Bergman's opinion (almost all sources are reliable for the opinion of the author). What matters is whether Bergman's opinion is significant. That can only be demonstrated by providing evidence that this claimed 'discrimination' has been discussed beyond the creationist camp. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards the claim to be 'insignificant'. Because it we suddenly claim it to be 'significant' we can find a book by someone else claiming the young Earth creationists to be irrational, blind, etc etc... and round and round we go name calling until this article is full of just rants and raves against each other. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 23:52, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The claims of discrimination silencing sympathetic academics has been discussed in media coverage of Expelled, as just one quick Google search shows.

From the article the following quote: "Sternberg was not discriminated against, was never dismissed, and in fact was not even a paid employee, but just an unpaid research associate who had completed his three-year term!". See what I mean, name calling back and forth. I we allow one, we must go on and on with each side attacking the other in a quite volatile discussion. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 00:20, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Not sure I see any need for rants and rages at all, just a calm exposure of the truth. If hard heads won't consider it, then ultimately it's their problem. Cpsoper (talk) 23:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I am disturbed by the idea that editors might be opposing inclusion of this source and subtopic simply because they disagree with Bergman's (and surely Stein's) viewpoints regarding discrimination against those challenging the consensus view. In my experience, when reasonably sourced material (clearly verifiable) is objected to with arguments arguments that are solely hinged on "insignificance" and "weight", I can't help but feel like wiki-lawyering is being employed to preserve or push a POV. How does excluding this material possibly benefit readers, such as high school and college students, who are beginning to research the topic and are looking to Misplaced Pages for a good start on finding resources. Clearly, a student interested in this controversy might well be interested in knowing more about what Bergman has to say in his book.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 00:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I have expressed neither agreement nor disagreement with Bergman. And WP:WEIGHT is policy - it is not Wiki-lawyering to cite relevant policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:11, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Andy, why do you start your comment with "Actually, I have expressed neither agreement nor disagreement with Bergman?" No one suggested you did. I certainly didn't. That WP:WEIGHT is policy is not in dispute. I was simply pointing out that arguments based on a distorted view of weight are often raised to exclude valid material. In this particular case, clearly the issue of allegations of academic discrimination related to any scientists who questions the sufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain all life has been widely covered, especially in context of those allegations being made in a very high profile way by the movie by Ben Stein, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

I've not read Bergman's book. Never heard of it until I saw this issue raised in the Reliability talk page. But it clearly is an attempt to expand on Stein's thesis. Stein's documentary was widely covered: it was praised by those who take his side on the issue, and scorned by those who dismiss his thesis. See for example, the New York Times review of his documentary.

Whether or not the discrimination and fear of speaking out is as widespread as Stein or Bergman assert, it is a notable issue widely covered by the press, at least in regard to Stein's documentary. The issue therefore has "weight" no matter how you measure it. It has even more weight in that it is widely covered in the fundamentalist Christian media -- which admittedly does not represent scientific consensus but does represent a portion of public opinion, interest, beliefs that demonstrates that this viewpoint, right or wrong, is not "fringe." In short, a substantial portion of the public believes that more scientists are critical of evolution than are willing to voice their criticisms, for fear of ostracism. Given all the media attention given to Expelled, I think it ludicrous that there's even a debate about excluding sources that echo this concern . . . especially in an article that is presumptively about the evolution-creation debate.

It appears to me that some editors here are more interested in trying to "win" this debate (objecting like lawyers to the witnesses/sources being called) rather than to simply do the job of reporting on all of the elements of the debate and controversy that can be synthesized into a useful article on the topic. Anyone wanting to advance one side or the other of this debate, should continue to fight over these sources.

Anyone who wants to expand this article into one that summarizes all of the issues involved in this debate (which I thought was the intention) should concentrate on figuring out how to use the sources brought to the article by interested editors rather than finding excuses to delete the work of other editors.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. I was just surprised to see so much opposition into including a verifiable source that touches on issues already widely covered by the media. Based on my general observations regarding source wars related to other topics, I feel such opposition to good sources usually stems from efforts to control the slant of the article rather than to let it grow into a full review of the available material. I'm not singling out any editors here. But the tone is similar to what I've found problematic elsewhere.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 05:39, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I am beginning to see why it would be touchy to say such a 'global' statement like "Creationists claim there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution." The statement itself is too vague. To be accurate, the statement would have to be "Dr Jerry Bergman, in his book Slaughter of the Dissidents, claims that there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution.". Now since we have a page for Jerry Bergman, we can add the statement on that page. As I mentioned previously, if we start going on with a "He said this and they said that" debate, it will degenerate rather quickly. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 11:28, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

It's frankly rude to accuse others of wikilawyering and POV pushing, especially in such an otherwise civil debate. Cut it out.

Such a claim is fringe, and made by a fringe author, who, after all, has written books claiming that the Holocaust was based on Darwin. I wouldn't say that any of his books are necessarily either verifiable or mainstream points of view. In this case, the book seems to be (somewhat) verifiable, but a source by a less fringe author would be better by far. Furthermore, this book has received virtually no coverage in the mainstream media. The documentary Expelled has received rather more, but has also been derided for bad fact checking and misrepresentation, making it a questionable source. Worse still, by putting such a sentence in the article, we would be giving these claims the same validity as actual science. Regardless of how we framed it, this would be validating an idea held only by fringe groups. Rwenonah (talk) 13:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone believes the Holocaust was "based on Darwin." But it is clear that many have, for a very long time, suggested that the eugenics movement, which was used by the Nazis as an excuse for the Holocaust, was based on Darwinism. A most excellent scholarly book published by the University of Illinois press back in 1980 (which I read back around that time), is The Legacy of Malthus: The Social Costs of New Scientific Racism by Alan Chase. It's well worth reading.

Again, I don't know anything about Bergman and his views. But the assertion that the defenders of racial discrimination and active eugenics (culling the population, by expulsion or elimination of Jews, Poles, and other "useless eaters") based their rationale on the Galton, Darwin, and Malthus is clearly well founded and supported by many academics.

I'm not a creationist. I'm not here to defend creationism. But just because some creationists makes a claim of fact does not mean that claim should be presumed to be false. It is a fact that defenders of the policies that created the Holocaust argued their policies were rational based on evolutionary theory is a fact. The fact that people interviewed by Ben Stein (and presumably Bergman, claim they were victims of academic prejudice because they showed empathy for intelligent design, or even creationism (are there such cases??), or any sign of concern that evolutionary theory was incomplete, is a fact. Such people exist. And third party investigators, such as Stein (and Bergman?), have interviewed them and published books and produced movies in which these people have proclaimed their "persecution." These claims have achieved enough notability that they have been the subject of counter claims and dismissal in articles appearing in the New York Times and New Scientist (which I cited above after about 30 seconds of googling in each case).

Clearly a section, describing these claims and counterclaims is appropriate. Something like "At least some academics interviewed by Ben Stein (and/or Bergman??) have claimed they or others they know were discriminated against by . . . . These claims of discrimination were dismissed by so and so (citing other sources)."

The assertion that new material like this should be omitted because this article is too long is just silly. This is not a paper encyclopedia. If Cpsoper and other editors want to expand the article with topic relevant information, that's what Misplaced Pages is here for . . . to expand the availability of knowledge and citations to verifiable sources.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 14:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Sure, it's true that some academics believe they have been discriminated against, but this is true of any fringe group of academics, or any fringe group, for that matter. That doesn't mean we need to include it in an article, let alone give it its own section.By doing so, we would be giving it hugely undue weight. This view isn't even held by a significant minority, but only by a tiny section of academics and a slightly larger section of the population as a whole, hence the reason that it has received coverage only once in mainstream media. We shouldn't place it on the same footing as significant, well-discussed areas of the article, which we would be doing by including such a proposed section. Bergman, BTW, explicitly argued, as I remember, that the Holocaust wouldn't have occurred if Germany had banned the teaching of evolution. I wouldn't accuse him of reliability. Rwenonah (talk) 14:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Evidence for this last assertion please Rwenonah? Cpsoper (talk) 20:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I found a link for and against the statement in that book. Here and here

Thanks, can't see any direct assertion that not teaching evolution would have stopped the Shoah, only that evolution was a primary driver of the horror, alongside others, a view a number of non-creationists also hold, can you? Cpsoper (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I think Andy has it right here. This isn't a thing that people really talk about. If the topic develops enough steam it would probably fit better in the level of support for Evolution article.--Adam in MO Talk 00:58, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose However, I'm from Tennessee, and around here it is something people really talk about. Those darn college professors believe in all kinds of crazy ideas. My objection is that the article is already too long. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:43, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: Because it is a banal conspiracy theory with no demonstrable reality in reliable sources. Conservative Christians constantly complain about being persecuted, and this is a classic example. Hell, they even claim they are persecuted because they are no longer allowed to persecute gay people. Being "persecuted" is an essential component of their religious beliefs, so any such claims would have to be backed up with MULTIPLE extremely high-quality independent secondary sources. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:35, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. If there is any independently sourced evidence of actual persecution it may be worth including. Otherwise it is just fringe conspiracy theory.Charles (talk) 18:38, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Thank god I'm not from Tennessee. It is only a small and not notable undue minority that dispute the science, no point in giving those people unwarranted coverage. -19:04, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too much credence given to a fringe position. Binksternet (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Have already expressed support Notability strictly as indicated before applies to pages, not to sections WP:NNC. As to RS, the source has been judged to be RS on the RS notice board, at least s being representative of creationist opinion. Bergman has documented multiple testimonies of serious discrimination, sackings, death threats, and sabotage, with dates and places in a published work - these would be libellous if not true - I don't know of any law cases several years after the work. I can testify to one example of the serious sabotage of laboratory work by ideological opponents of workers at a physiology lab in King's College in London - not me - close acquaintances - it was wholly disgraceful. I wonder if many opponents here are unintentionally perpetuating an improper censorship, because they don't realise just how serious this problem can be. Isn't the best response to error exposure and refutation, not stifling and suppression? Cpsoper (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but 'libellous if not true' is (a) WP:OR, and (b) irrelevant, since we are discussing WP:WEIGHT issues. Provide evidence that these claims have had significant coverage beyond the creationist camp, and they may merit inclusion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:02, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Libellous or not, the testimonies are in print in full with detailed references and judged to be RS for creationist opinion, by two editors on the RS posting site. Whether they are libellous or not is irrevelant to whether it's OR. 13,400 g/hits is not small - pls see above. Cpsoper (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Will you please stop going on about RS - nobody is disputing that the material is reliable for the author's opinions. That isn't the issue. What we need is evidence that anyone beyond the authors and other creationists consider this of significance - and for that, we need actual citations, not meaningless numbers. Provide evidence that this has been discussed elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps then you need to persuade some other editors, but I agree RS is not the issue. Sabotage, unjustified sackings and death threats seem a pretty weighty consideration, even if not acknowledged by other parties. Cpsoper (talk) 21:50, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

No. For the umpteenth time, if it has not been "acknowledged by other parties", it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, end of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

] doesn't require outside reference, 'Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.' 17 words of reference to the widely heldly view of Creationists that they have been severely discriminated by, in an article of over 12,000 words (not including references) on the Creation-Evolution controversy does not seem undue.Cpsoper (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Cherry-picking part of the policy while ignoring the rest isn't going to convince anyone. Anyway, since you have failed to provide any policy-compliant justification for the inclusion of this material, I can see no point in continuing this discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:18, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

With respect, it's not cherry picking to cite the kernel of the policy. Please address the central assertion - does WP:weight always require external sources? Cpsoper (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

See our sourcing policy, and remember these policies work together. . dave souza, talk 08:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Undue. The contention that this is a "widely held view" is not adequately supported by the sources, in fact as only two fringe sources have been presented it seems to fit exactly into tiny minority. - - MrBill3 (talk) 22:22, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

It's interesting that the opposition to this small statement about discrimination is so strong, and yet so variably and often ill founded - isn't that in itself quite telling? Look through a google search - you'll find references to the work in local press , in the works of non-creationist IDers for example ,, even one rather curious, as well as many scores of creationist and othe Christian sites, some in published works , PZ Myers thought the work significant enough to prepare for debate with Bergman on it and reports on it here , he describes the book's claims disparagingly, but it's a pity he doesn't actually address them specifically. This is not a small number of readers and supporters, however much its opponents might apparently wish it to be. Cpsoper (talk) 23:11, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UNDUE, not shown to be a widely held belief (and in the case of Expelled shown to be little more than fabrications and misrepresentation of facts). Until covered by reliable, secondary sources this do not belong in the article. WegianWarrior (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Would AndytheGrump perhaps like to take this up? QED last post. Cpsoper (talk) 23:11, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support a reliable source is discussing this matter. A documentary has been made covering this topic. Which happens to be the 18th highest grossing documentary in US history. Expelled opened in 1,052 theaters, more than any other documentary before it, and grossed over $2,900,000 in its first weekend. It earned $7.7 million, making it the 18th-highest-grossing documentary film in the United States (statistics include 1982–present, and are not adjusted for inflation). I would say it is a NOTABLE issue and I am not even a creationist. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:22, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

But... cdesign proponentsists very indignantly claim that ID isn't creationism, or indeed religion, except when they say it is. We've got a specific article about Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed which is essentially just one religious video, and had no discernible impact on the bigger debate this article's about. Policy requires that we base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, not on your feeling that it's a notable part of the broader controversy. Secondary sources, please. . . dave souza, talk 08:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose — No evidence shown that this is an actual scientific dispute, as opposed to a fringe minority perceiving scientific rejection as conspiratorial oppression. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:WEIGHT. That a fringe group claims to be unfairly silenced is standard and therefore of feather weight. There is no "dispute". (I too came here from seeing it on the reliable sources board.) Bishonen | talk 15:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC).
• Support Seems obvious the charges are part of the current mix, 'Expelled' and such, and Public Policy/Science Education seems to me the section best suited in the current article. (Though I note below someone tried adding a section Definition and Limits of Science / Appeal to Consensus section. ) Markbassett (talk) 17:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - to make my position clear. As of this moment, there appears to be little evidence that sources beyond the creationist/ID camp have taken claims of a conspiracy to silence scientific criticism of the consensus at all seriously. It is par for the course for purveyors of fringe viewpoints to make such claims. It is however not Misplaced Pages's purpose to act as a platform for them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Primarily because making intelligent hiring decisions isn't any form of "discrimination" in the pejorative sense of the word, any more than requiring proofreaders to be literate or computer programmers to be able to use logic is "discrimination" in that sense. It's discrimination in the sense that people are not indiscriminately hiring incompetent people, but that's a good thing.—Kww(talk) 03:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Appeal to Consensus Section Added

I added a section regarding the appeal to consensus argument with notes regarding the attack on that argument based on Stein and Bergman as described in the Toledo Blade, the New York Times, and New Scientist. Clearly this is a notable part of the debate and widely covered. The above debate gets us nowhere unless we have an actual section and language which properly assigns assertions and beliefs to the people and sources making them. I have made a first crack at doing so, and invite other editors to improve on this new section. —GodBlessYou2 (talk) 15:24, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD I have reverted this Bold but no consensus edit by an editor with an obvious WP:COI(This edit made at approx 18:29 28th December and not signed for some reason, sorry) Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 20:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Where do you come up with the accusation that I have a conflict of interest? I only came to this article because I saw a request for input at the Reliability talk page?

For the convenience of other editors, I added the following below the section titled "Appeal to consequences." As you will see, I used reliable sources and properly attributed claims made by those in the minority position.

--Appeal to Scientific Consensus--

There is a strong consensus in the scientific community, especially among biologists, that the origin and variation of life forms is adequately explained by evolutionary processes.

Some have argued that this consensus is complete. Others have argued that questions regarding the adequacy of evolutionary theory are suppressed by the fear of seeing one's career destroyed for making statements that might be used to support anti-evolution rhetoric.

The latter view was the focus of the Ben Stein widely viewed documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. In the film, Stein interviewed several academics, including biologist Richard Sternberg, and astrobiologist Guillermo Gonzalez, who claimed, according to the Toledo Blade that "their careers were derailed for failing to follow the party line on evolution." Jerry Bergman claims he has documented hundreds of cases of scientists "whose careers have been capsized for doubting Darwin." Sociologist Rodney Stark has asserted that there is expectation within academia that nothing should ever be said that might be by creationists to undermine public acceptance of scientific consensus on evolution, adding: "My reluctance to pursue these matters is based on my experience that nothing causes greater panic among many of my colleagues than any criticism of evolution. They seem to fear that someone might mistake them for Creationists if they even remain in the same room while such talk is going on."

The thesis that academics are systematically punished for voicing doubts about evolution has been widely denounced by many leading scientists and organizations.

References

1. ^ Yonke, David (2008-04-28). "Expelled: Intelligent design film fuels debate over how life came to be". Toledo Blade. Retrieved 7 January 2014.
2. Jerry Bergman. Slaughter of the Dissidents: The Shocking Truth about Killing the Careers of Darwin Doubters, 2nd edition, April 2011, 422 pages, Leafcutter Press.
3. Stark, Rodney. For The Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the End of Slavery (Princeton University Press, 2003), p.176
4. Jeanette Catsoulis. Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008) Movie Review New York Times. April 18, 2008. Accessed Dec. 28, 2014.
5. Gefter, Amanda (12 April 2008). "Warning! They've Got Designs on You". New Scientist. 198 (2651). London, England: Reed Business Information, Ltd.: 46. Bibcode:2008NewSc.198...46S. doi:10.1016/S0262-4079(08)61555-9.

I would also be interested to know where the COI comes from, not the editor's name I hope! A well referenced NPOV section reporting concerns about alleged censorship and discrimination meets WP:weight, though concerns about the pre-existing prolixity need remembering. Cpsoper (talk) 16:25, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe the section could be added if we base ourselves on for example Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed#Claims_that_intelligent_design_advocates_are_persecuted There are perfect examples where "the film alleges..." and " Stein says..." therefore this section can be allowed because if you check creationists websites, they cite the references extensively. As I've mentioned previously, I am quite biased. I find young Earth creationists without common sense however it does not change the fact that the references are in fact reliable sources for their beliefs and if there are reliable sources that contradict what they're saying (I believe there is a Scientific American reference somewhere in this discussion) they also can be added. Of course the wording will be debated however if we keep this rational and without emotional responses the section should be added as per Misplaced Pages policy. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, I believe the first draft of this section, as I wrote it, is well referenced and deals with a notable aspect of the evolution - creation controversy. Indeed, it is arguably a major part of the controversy as evidenced by Stein's documentary and the vigorous response to it denying the allegation. It is just that, however, a first draft, trying to show how the Bergman material suggested by Cpsoper can be incorporated in a manner that properly attributes the allegations made to Bergman relying on both the Toledo Post interview and his own book. The last paragraph is just a stub. Additional material can be added giving more details about the counter arguments. I put in two sources, and kept it brief, mostly because I thought others would have material they would most prefer to see used for the counter argument.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Why not start by basing your proposals on an academic treatment of this issue, if it's of any significance? If the point is that two creationists have made these claims and have received some coverage, that doesn't in itself show that it's sufficiently significant to the broader "controversy" to appear in this article. This page can't cover every creationist claim. . dave souza, talk 20:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I like the draft that @Godblessu2, has suggested. It is well sourced with multiple RS. The language and tone is balanced. The 'Expelled' inclusion and coverage of the subject shows clear notability, (with it being in the top 20 grossing US Documentaries of all time). I hardly think this is being guilty of covering "every creationists claim". Using COI or UNDUE as a defense against the inclusion seems at best weak. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Even conservative Christians don't assign that much weight to this, as evidenced by this article: ]. While they are obsessed about being "persecuted", the section proposed above gives far too much weight to a subject that even conservative Christians consider low priority, and that is entirely ignored, or at best dismissed, by independent reliable sources. The proposed section serves merely to give a soapbox to the the extreme fringe views of extreme fringe figures, that are significant (and marginally significant to them, at that) only within their own twisted universe. Find multiple quality independent reliable sources that discuss this subject in depth, and I might agree to a very brief mention. Otherwise, all we have to go on is in-universe fringe propaganda and banal, quotidian conservative Christian pissing and moaning about being "oppressed", which is hardly worthy of inclusion in a serious encyclopedia. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@DominusV, it doesn't really matter how conservative Christians view this issue. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 22:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

It does indeed, if it has been covered extensively in terms of the topic of this article by many high-quality reliable independent secondary sources. The problem is that few, if any, of the reliable sources discussing this topic mention these complaints at all, never mind take them seriously enough to treat them in depth. Hence the problem with weight. The sources that do mention them are either neither reliable nor independent, not high quality or comprehensive enough to assign them much weight, or merely briefly mention and dismiss the claims of the creationists. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:39, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@DominusV, while I find Young-Earth Creationists views to be rather naive, there was a documentary movie made about the topic of discrimination against scientists who do not endorse Darwinian Evolution. Ben Stein, who has written for numerous publications including the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Barron's magazine, was also the speech writer and Lawyer for presidents Nixon & Ford, is the writer and presenter of this Documentary. It is a highly NOTABLE coverage of this topic, making it into the Top 20 highest grossing documentaries. The coverage included a New York Times article before the documentary even released! This topic has WEIGHT. And BTW, Stein is not a "conservative Christian" with "persecution" issues, he is Jewish. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps if the film were a reliable source, instead of a silly publicity stunt that was ridiculed by just about every single reliable source that wrote about it, very few, if any, of which agreed that this was a serious topic rather than some extreme fringe conspiracy theory. According to our article on the film, The New York Times described it as "a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry" and "an unprincipled propaganda piece that insults believers and nonbelievers alike." Just because a film is notable doesn't mean that the subject of that film is notable as well, especially when their is wide agreement among reliable sources that the subject has been fabricated. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

You maybe missing an important distinction. The Reliable Sources are listed below. The Stein film, whether people agree with it's content or not, give WEIGHT and NOTABILITY to the issue. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 16:22, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The accusation of academic bias is widely disseminated, as are the refutations of bias. All the sources I used meet the criteria of reliability in how they are used. Remember, reliable does not mean that the assertions are correct but rather that they have been made and are reported by third parties, such as Stein, much less by the Toledo Blade, the New York Times, and New Scientist.

Regarding the issue of weight, the way to address any perceived problems in weight is to ADD material, not delete it. If Dominus or others feel that there should be more citations, discussion, and quotes from those who deny the allegations made by the people Stein and Bergman have interviewed, go for it. But deleting well sourced material because you don't want to go to the trouble of adding material is not appropriate. I plan to reinsert the section per this discussion with the invitation for other editors to expand on it by adding rebuttal claims found in reliable sources.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 17:28, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• You plan to reinsert it in the face of strong consensus against even the short version in the RfC? I really wouldn't if I were you. You will be sanctioned for disruptive editing if you do. Please stick with discussing it here. Bishonen | talk 17:46, 29 December 2014 (UTC).

I am discussing it here, and at least two other editors have agreed that it is well sourced and at least reasonably balanced. As noted, anyone who objects to weight should contribute material rather than delete appropriate material. Rather than threaten sanctions (a threat which is, ironically, similar to what Richard Sternberg, Guillermo Gonzalez and others have alleged when they attempted to call attention to these matters), why don't you make suggestions regarding how this section can be best presented in a neutral but complete fashion.

I really don't think the discussion regarding Cpsoper's earlier effort to cite Bowman, the short version is relevant First, Cpsoper made the mistake of not attributing the allegation to Bowmen in the text, relying simply on the footnote. Also Cpsoper did not put that claim by Bowman in the larger context of reliable sources, including Stein, the Toledo Blade, New York Times, and Rodney Stark -- a highly regarded and notable sociologist. In short, if you read the prior discussion carefully, it's clear that Cpsoper's efforts were hampered by inexperience and lack of experience in blending his contribution into a larger body of reliable source. I wouldn't have ever come to this page and helped edit it if other editors here had stepped up to help Cspoper work his contribution into the piece rather than simply objecting to everything he tried.

Finally, I would add that I don't consider the reversion of my edit by RoxytheDog very legitimate. Roxy had not participated in the discussion or given any reasons why the sources cited are not reliable.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 18:10, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you think about my legitimate reversion of your no consensus edit. It is clear that editors here oppose it. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 18:56, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Bishonen - seems not correct about wiki policies and wording is ironically channeling the kind of attacks under discussion as not notable ;-) I recommend Bishonen edit or delete own post just to be cool and that we all go back to talking article substance. Markbassett (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, GodBlessYou2, I understand that you think all the people who have opposed adding even a short mention of the supposed "silencing" (and who have provided many and varied arguments) ought to be doing something completely different, as instructed by you. I've got that. It doesn't work like that, though. We're all volunteers here, and ordering others to add material, or scorning them for "not wanting to go to the trouble" of adding material, simply won't fly. You need to respect the RfC, however misguided you think your opponents are. Markbassett, thank you for your advice, but I won't be taking it. Bishonen | talk 18:26, 29 December 2014 (UTC).

Dominus - the article is "Creation-Evolution Controversy" so put in what the notable events and controversies are -- that the NY Times covered it supports notable, and that they objected to it supports it is in controversy. Seems kind of obvious that it is prominence in the topic rather than prominence in personal likes or feelings of falsehood that should count in wiki sense, and equally obvious that isn't easy to do. Markbassett (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The RfC was clear. There is not consensus support for including this content. This attempt to ignore the RfC and push content is tendentious. - - MrBill3 (talk) 18:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

MrBill3 - Please relax and look again -- the RfC on a different topic by different user Cpsoper is above and as only 3 days old seems going within tolerable behaviour. This new section add/delete/debate seems a bit of interjection to the RfC process so I have separated the two, and can see if you feel it was jumping the gun or that TALK has run a bit more amok, but I also see that it has a point in wanting to talk / post about content as needed context for considering RS or not. Markbassett (talk) 19:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The RfC is on exactly the topic covered in GodBlessYou2's reverted edit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

GodBlessYou2 - I'd expect the article organization Definition of Science / Appeals to Consnensus to be more about Philosophy of Science and Nature of Science (NOS) materials that relate to appealing to consensus in the Creation-Evolution controversy, not just that we are having issues re consensus here ;-) . Markbassett (talk) 19:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@Mrbill, I don't think the RfC was clear, it was split 7 against, 5 in favour, at my count (with some unsigned/unclear/depends votes). It seems GodBlessYou2 (talk) the best option is take this to the DRN. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 19:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I make it 12 to 4 against inclusion - and we don't ignore an ongoing RfC just because some people don't like he way it is going. If the RfC is closed with no consensus, dispute resolution may be necessary, but as of this moment there is no reason to presume that is going to happen. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

My count is 14 to 5 (including one 'depends') - I'm with Andy on this one. Unless secondary and reliable sources can be found showing that this is notable belief, it simply don't belong in the article. WegianWarrior (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Mmm - weighing the merits of the inputs seems likely/supposed to throw out a lot of the material that instead of responding to the question ran off into wording, Bergman, Holocaust, calling for academic source to say academic suppression (???), too terse, or bickering. The RfC substance so far seems talking about if it weights enough, though often wanting to impose a filter on what gets to be weighed so maybe it is more that 'what gets weighed' is the question. Markbassett (talk) 21:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@Jamie: The film does not give weight to anything, because it is not a reliable source. Reviews of the film in reliable sources also do not give any weight to the topic, because they almost unanimously dismiss the topic of the film as a fabrication. If anything, the overwhelming majority of the reliable sources state that the topic basically doesn't exist except in the heads of paranoid, delusional fringe proponents. @Mark: Weight is assigned by how much serious and substantial coverage of the topic there is in multiple reliable independent secondary sources. Unreliable fringe sources cannot be used for any purpose here on WP except to illustrate what reliable sources say about them. They certainly cannot be used to assign weight. And because the claim is exceptional, the sources needed to substantiate it have to be of exceptionally high quality, not tabloids or fringe films. Without serious and substantial coverage in multiple high quality reliable independent secondary sources, we have no way to assign any weight to this topic at all. Also, just because the film is notable to merit a WP article doesn't mean that the film is reliable or that the topic of the film is notable. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:39, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Dominus Vobisdu Hanh ? Not related to my RfC weight of inputs post. Supposed to be RfC outcome is determined by weighing the merits of the arguments and assessing if they are consistent with Misplaced Pages policies. Responses to the RfC that were short or silly or off topic of the RfC as it is actually phrased -- not imagined or paraphrased or whatever -- seems likely/supposed to not give much to the RfC conclusion. This section of TALK is not the RfC section, but I did feel it might be useful to point out to folks talking about the RfC that it is supposed to be about getting substantive inputs rather than a blog match 5 screens lower mattering. Markbassett (talk) 17:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Clarification of New Section History

I would call your attention to one of the earliest comments made in opposition to Cposper's RfC.

• The specific edit in this case is "Creationists claim there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution." To be accurate, the statement would have to be "Dr Jerry Bergman, in his book Slaughter of the Dissidents, claims that there is evidence of a widespread discrimination against research scientists and academics who oppose evolution.". The source is a reliable source just not for the edit in question. CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Quite right. Attribution is needed in the text. Another good comment:

• I think the question here is whether such claims of discrimination are discussed in non-creationist sources. It is par for the course for proponents of fringe ideas to claim discrimination, but little weight needs to be attached to them unless they are reported elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Quite right. More sources are needed.

With these comments in mind, I crafted a section relying on multiple reliable sources showing that Bergman's claims had been repeated and addressed, and criticized by multiple third party reliable sources, including many main stream media sources.

RfC comments justifying opposition to inclusion like "My objection is that the article is already too long." are simply silly and don't touch on the main issue of whether or not, or more precisely how, the source provided by Cposper can be properly integrated into the article. As shown, Bergman's and Stein's own reporting of the people they have interviewed has been covered by The New York Times and the Toledo Blade, and elsewhere.

I went ahead and drafted an example of how this could be done in the context of a larger number of related main stream, reliable, and notable sources. In my view, the old RfC should be closed and the discussion should shift to the entire synthesis of sources I have proposed, not just an argument over a Cposper's over generalization citing Bergman.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 23:10, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The RFC seems to be against inclusion of a sentence referencing Bergman or the concept in the article. An entire section devoted to it would give the topic hugely undue weight.Rwenonah (talk) 23:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. And I would note that even if the RfC were to approve the inclusion of material on Bergman's claims, there is no way that GodBlessYou2's proposed content would be acceptable - it simply parrots Bergman's arguments, without reflecting the mainstream view on such claims. It also appears to be making assertions not supported by the sources cited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:45, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Not true. Bergman, Stein, and Stark are all relevant. As mentioned before, if as you claim there are more sources disputing the charges they make, then the proper way to balance the weight is to expand the section describing the rebuttals. "Banning" legitimate material because some editors think it has undue weight when they refuse to supply the "counter weight" material is counterproductive. "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public."

There are many reliable sources, especially regarding "Expelled," discussing the accusations of those interviewed by Stein and the counter arguments. Editors arguing here that the accusations of bias must be proved to be true and wide spread and acknowledged by the academic community are missing the fundamental point: this accusation and the counter response are widely reported in the media, most prominently in regard to the Expelled documentary but also in many other places, as I have cited. I repeat, once more. Anyone who thinks my edit lacks sufficient proclamations of those who reject accusation of bias can and should be able to find more reliable sources upon which to build paragraphs or even pages of the denials. Please do so! That's the way weight is balance . . . by adding material, not blocking topics which some editors don't want to see raised.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 05:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Unless the RfC closes with a consensus to include material on this, it isn't going into the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:00, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

The topic hasn't received the same amount of attention in reliable sources as the subjects of the rest of the article. By adding a massive back-and-forth debate to the article, we would be treating it as far more important than it actually is. Balance is not treating fringe ideas like mainstream ones, as the RFC seems to be saying. Rwenonah (talk) 13:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Rwenonah,and AndyTheGrump. It has been repeated multiple times in this RFC, this issue isn't important enough to have traction with the mainstream media or academic study. Sure there are a couple of lines about the movie, in print, but there is nearly zero serious discussion about the issue. To give it any air play in this article is to give it more weight and attention then it deserves.--Adam in MO Talk 13:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm just passing through, haven't read all the posts on this topic, and don't care if the material in question is included or not. Just thought I'd mention that there is a similar section in the Intelligent design article titled "Allegations of discrimination against ID proponents"; it might be worth a look. — MisterDub (talk | contribs) 16:26, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

So if I hear all the arguments being made here, they would not be too dissimilar to this analogy:

The Creationists = The Black Minority in the US, The Darwinists = The White majority in the US, Misplaced Pages editors = Some CNN journalists.

A Black professor writes a book about blacks experiencing prejudice against them by their white colleagues. The whites deny the charges and say it doesn't happen. A respected film maker makes a documentary about blacks experiencing prejudice from their white colleagues. The white press dismiss the the documentary as ridiculously exaggerated and unreliable. Some CNN journalists say, "I think we have a story here." The other journalists say "this is a fringe/minority claim not worthy of a mention on CNN". The other journalists disagree and say "yes, this is a minority group, but we have a reliable source in the professor who wrote the book and a few notable newspapers who mentioned the book, and a documentary, however well or poorly made that made it to the Top 20 Documentaries of all time in the US." The majority CNN news reporters outvote the others saying "keep moving people, there is nothing to see here!" and "This is a minority/fringe view, that has not received sufficient coverage in the mainstream press to be worthy of mention!" JamieBrown2011 (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Hm. Thing is, discrimination against blacks has been brought up before and received a lot of serious discussion in reliable sources. This hasn't. A better comparison would be homeopathy advocates' claims of doctors discriminating against them being given equal weight on CNN to doctors' scientific proof that homeopathy simply doesn't work. It doesn't happen, for obvious reasons. Rwenonah (talk) 17:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

You don't see articles on Home Depot's website about dowsers being upset over having been denied entry into the plumbers' union. The same applies here.--Adam in MO Talk 17:31, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

So when there are court cases, federal laws passed, documentation in textbooks and substantial academic discussion of, legal and scholarly documentation of and other substantial discourse in reliable sources then the prejudice against "The Creationists" will receive comparable coverage to discrimination against "The Black Minority in the US". WP is not the place to break the news of a Great Wrong That Must Be Righted, it is an encyclopedia reflecting the consensus of mainstream academia. A movie widely dismissed as fabricated, a single author and some minor commentary are not of due weight for inclusion in an encyclopedia, particularly as there is no activity in the courts or academia. Your comparison falls short in many other regards, previous position of disadvantage of blacks vs dominant position of christianity, white majority includes those acting in a way to cause harm vs WP editors aren't the group "persecuting" creationists.

The sources don't provide due weight for inclusion and there is not consensus support for including any of this content. - - MrBill3 (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Is Bergman's claim isolated, and therefore fringe?

AndytheGrump has repeatedly pressed this point:

• "I think the question here is whether such claims of discrimination are discussed in non-creationist sources. "

18:59, 26 December 2014

• I don't think anyone is questioning the reliability of the sources - the question is how significant are the opinions expressed in them. If there is a controversy involved, there must of necessity be two sides of the dispute - so where is the response from mainstream science? 26 December 2014 (UTC)
• It is a reliable source for Bergman's opinion (almost all sources are reliable for the opinion of the author). What matters is whether Bergman's opinion is significant. That can only be demonstrated by providing evidence that this claimed 'discrimination' has been discussed beyond the creationist camp. 26 December 2014 (UTC)
• Provide evidence that these claims have had significant coverage beyond the creationist camp, and they may merit inclusion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:02, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Will you please stop going on about RS - nobody is disputing that the material is reliable for the author's opinions. That isn't the issue. What we need is evidence that anyone beyond the authors and other creationists consider this of significance - and for that, we need actual citations, not meaningless numbers. Provide evidence that this has been discussed elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Not that it would take anyone more than a few minutes to verify the widespread discussion of claims of discrimination, but just so those of you who are lazy can see it in black and white, here's what a few minutes of my own searching uncovered, excluding all creationist sources:

• Robert J Marks II. Biological Information: New Perspectives From Intelligent Design. Human Events. 8/19/2014

• Rodney Stark, "Fact, Fable, and Darwin", The American Enterprise, September 2004. Writing: "Popper's tribulations illustrate an important basis for the victory of Darwinism: A successful appeal for a united front on the part of scientists to oppose religious opposition has had the consequence of silencing dissent within the scientific community. The eminent observer Everett Olson notes that there is "a generally silent group" of biological scientists "who tend to disagree with much of the current thought" about evolution, but who remain silent for fear of censure."

• Jeanette Catsoulis. Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (2008) Movie Review New York Times. April 18, 2008.

• Gefter, Amanda (12 April 2008). "Warning! They've Got Designs on You". New Scientist (London, England: Reed Business Information, Ltd.) 198 (2651): 46. Bibcode:2008NewSc.198...46S. doi:10.1016/S0262-4079(08)61555-9.

• John Rennie and Steve Mirsky. Six Things in Expelled That Ben Stein Doesn't Want You to Know......about intelligent design and evolution. Scientific American. April 16, 2008.

• Jeffery Kluger. Ben Stein Dukes it Out with Darwin. April 10, 2008.

• National Center for Science Education. "http://www.expelledexposed.com/ Expelled Exposed." Numerous materials disputing the claims of discrimination reported by Stein. This link adds details about the six people Stein interviewed claiming that their views made them targets.*States

• Yudhijit Bhattacharjee "Push Academic Freedom Bills" Science 9 May 2008: 731. [DOI:10.1126/science.320.5877.731a}

• Yudhijit Bhattacharjee ID at the Box Office Science 25 April 2008: 435.

• Michael Shermer Expelled Exposed Scientific American. June 2008. vol 298, 42-42 doi:10.1038/scientificamerican0608-42

• Yonke, David (2008-04-28). "Expelled: Intelligent design film fuels debate over how life came to be". Toledo Blade. Retrieved 7 January 2014.

Personally, I'm not a creationist. And I actually fully understand why academics and department chairs would discriminate against those who are not teaching what they are expected to teach. I came into this just because I hate to see the railroading of editors like Csposper who bringing in relevant material--just because others are looking for excuses to keep the material out of an article. My general opinion is that the more material the better.

I didn't have a "dog in the fight" until I saw my own well researched contribution blocked without good cause. The assertion by editors that this issue has not been discussed outside of the creationist press and is easily verified. Too many are arguing that the assertions are not reliable, when the only question that matters is that the assertions have been reported in verifiable sources by third parties (ie. reliable per Misplaced Pages source standards). The list above of non-creationists publications covering this story could be increased ten fold, as you all know. Granted, much or most of this coverage was triggered because Expelled was big news and unleashed a big push back from science groups. But there is no reason to blank it now just because some people don't like Expelled or think it was false. That's for our readers to determine after they are given notice, by us, of this controversy.

Once again, I repeat, if editors want to expand on my draft of the section adding more of the rebuttal evidence/statements/conclusions they should do so. That's the proper way to balance weight, by adding sources, not blocking sources.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 22:46, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Why does a list "excluding all creationist sources" start with an article by Robert J Marks, who runs a website on intelligent design? If you want us to look through a long list of sources, please don't waste our time by misrepresenting them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:57, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Your sources prove that the film is notable, which is nothing new since we already have an article about it. However, they lend little, if any, weight to the subject of the film, which has not received substantial, serious and persistent coverage in multiple reliable independent secondary sources, which almost entirely dismiss the topic as a paranoid delusion or groundless conspiracy theory unworthy of serious consideration. As we base our articles on substantial, serious and persistent coverage in multiple reliable independent secondary sources, we are bound by policy to do the same and dismiss the topic as a paranoid delusion or groundless conspiracy theory unworthy of serious consideration, or of inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

For cry's ache, take the time to read our core polices and guidelines, especially those that pertain to fringe and pseudoscientific topics like creationism: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOTE, WP:NPOV, especially WP:WEIGHT and WP:GEVAL, WP:FRINGE, WP:OR and WP:NOT. Your arguments will fall on deaf ears here unless they are based firmly on the above. You are just making up your own bizarre rules based on a very faulty understanding of our policies and guidelines, and ignoring those who correct you. Also read WP:NOTHERE. You're wasting your time, and, more importantly, ours. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:29, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

@DV, I like GBu2, was drawn into this RfC by what seemed like unreasonably obstructionist behavior to simply a RS paragraph being added. WP:FRINGE states, Misplaced Pages summarizes significant opinions, with representation in proportion to their prominence. A Misplaced Pages article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources. If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner.

My understanding of the policy is that while fringe issue should not receive undue weight in the article, but if it is reliably sourced, editors should not ENTIRELY exclude things that are fringe.ONE paragraph on this hardly seems giving it UNDUE coverage. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Nope, it is, per Wp:GEVAL. Rwenonah (talk) 00:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@Jamie: The topic of this article is the Creation-Evolution controversy. There has been an enormous amount of substantial coverage on this topic in countless reliable independent secondary sources. The proportion of that total that deals with the sub-topic of "suppression" of creationist scientists is microscopic, and consists almost entirely of brief, terse and repeated dismissals of it as a topic worthy of discussion. It is of tangential significance to the topic of the article as a whole, to the point where it is totally insignificant for an article the size of a WP article. It doesn't rise to the level of significance in terms of the big picture to warrant any notice whatsoever.

Of course, our policies prevent us from assigning weight to anything on the basis of coverage in unreliable sources. How much this has been discussed in the fringe literature is of no importance to us when assigning weight, per WP:GEVAL. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

This is totally absurd. First, Andy, I don't know anything about Andy Marks other than (a) his was the most recent published article I happened on and (b) his article was published in a reliable source that is not devoted to creationism. Second, Andy, why do you ignore all of the other sources, including New Scientist, Time, Science, and Scientific American? You previously asked "If there is a controversy involved, there must of necessity be two sides of the dispute - so where is the response from mainstream science?" Clearly I provided what you requested, and now you're moving the goal posts??!

Why are you all also ignoring the book and article by Rodney Stark, a very highly respected and much cited sociologist who has studied the intersection between science and religion? Because ignoring reliable sources is convenient?

So how do we take this to arbitration? It will be amazing to see how it is handled. As said before, it is very illustrative and ironic that a faction of editors insists on hiding a highly discussed fact that dissenters complain of bias precisely to maintain the pretense that such bias can't exist because those accused of it say that it doesn't exits. This is truly bizarre and sad, and totally out of line with policy. —GodBlessYou2 (talk) 04:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Why am I ignoring Rodney Stark? Well, apart from the fact that someone who writes "There is no plausible scientific theory of the origin of species!" is self-evidently questionable as a source for the mainstream view, the article you linked says next to nothing about the subject under discussion here - creationist scientists supposedly being discriminated against. A mention in passing, no more. Given your apparent inability to pick a source without misrepresenting it, I see little reason to waste further time on your list. We already know that reviews of 'Expelled' widely dismissed it as the nonsense it clearly is, but that isn't evidence of anything beyond the fact that fringe nonsense is entertaining to write about - the film led to zero serious debate about alleged persecution of creationist scientists. This article is about the debate between science and religion concerning evolution (or rather, between science and some proponents of some subsets of religion), and not about the persecution complex of a small minority on one side of the debate. If people want to read about how 'Expelled' was trashed by critics, they can see the article on it - but such material, along with fringe claims that nobody but the claimants take seriously don't belong in this article - it is simply off-topic, and presenting it as somehow of significance to the wider debate is entirely undue. And as for arbitration, I see no reason why that is necessary - the consensus in the RfC seems clear. Though if this does come to arbitration, I may very well bring up your questionable use of sources, and your apparent inability to accurately summarise their contents. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

See WP:FRINGE § Unwarranted promotion of fringe theories, "A conjecture that has not received critical review from the scientific community or that has been rejected may be included in an article about a scientific subject only if other high-quality reliable sources discuss it as an alternative position. Ideas supported only by a tiny minority may be explained in articles devoted to those ideas if they are notable." This explains clearly and explicitly what we are dealing with here, ideas supported only by a tiny minority, not discussed in high quality sources as an alternate position but dismissed with passing reference. Policy clearly does not support inclusion of the proposed content (proportional representation based on prominence in reliable sources is core policy). Arbitration has been mentioned and anything to relieve this tendentious talk page editing and attempt to subvert an RfC would be welcomed. I note that an admin can impose discretionary sanctions if appropriate. - - MrBill3 (talk) 06:27, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions can be imposed for arguing for inclusion of material on the talk page??? Also, creationism is a discredited theory, yes, but not a fringe theory. It is an ancient theory with a long history of documentation and debate. It is more than a conjecture, it is a full blown widely held claim. It is so notable that countless scientists have written many books to refute, dismiss, and discredit it. Conversely, many others (including far fewer scientists) have written counter arguments. This article is precisely about that notable debate.

I find it amazing that editors like AndyGrump will look through a list of 11 non-creationist sources, including articles from Time magazine, Science, New Scientist, New York Times, Scientific American, and Human Events, then pick just one, an article by highly regarded Rodney Stark published in The American Enterprise and use that one source as an excuse to ignore all of the other sources. Why, because he disagrees with Stark?! He doesn't even bother to understand Stark's comment. In full context, Stark's article acknowledges that natural selection describes the "evolution" of species but not the "origin" of the first species. (Without a first species, who does the second species evolve?) The problem of how inanimate matter became reproducing, evolving life is still a vexing one and Stark is alleging that that it has not been sufficiently solved.

That aside, just because Andy cherry picks a comment that, in his personal opinion, discredits everything Stark has ever said or thought, that does not change the fact that Stark is a very notable academic, published in many reliable publications, who is asserting that he and other academics (mentioning "Popper" and "Everett Olson") have witnessed and experienced academic backlash against anyone who dares to allege that there may be any weaknesses in the arguments of evolutionists --- precisely because any questions are perceived as giving aid, comfort, and encouragement to creationists which may then be used to provide further grist in the evolution and creation controversy, which is what this article is supposed to be about . . . at least in theory.

But now I'm beginning to see that I may have been mistaken. Instead of seeking to add reliable information backed my multiple source relevant to the title of this article, perhaps I should have instead suggested changing the title to reflect what a contingent of the editors insist the article should really be about. What do you think of retitling it to: "A response to critics of evolution including only those issues and sources we prefer to discuss." At least that would be accurate.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 14:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

'In full context, Stark's article acknowledges that natural selection describes the "evolution" of species but not the "origin" of the first species.' Nope. You clearly aren't reading sources you are citing. He isn't discussing the origin of life at all - he instead argues that the alleged lack of "transitional forms" indicates that the Darwinian explanation for speciation is inadequate, and suggests that this is "probably the most disreputable scientific secret of the past century". Speciation - the change from one species to another. Not the origin of life. And no, I'm not trying to discredit Starks social science (though I think your assessment of his significance is somewhat exaggerated)- I'm pointing out that Stark is in no shape or form a representative of the scientific mainstream regarding Darwinism (a field in which he appears to have no qualifications), and accordingly cannot be cited as representing the mainstream in regard to the topic under discussion here - alleged systematic discrimination against creationist scientists. Not that the article cited says anything of significance anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:11, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

No one is ignoring any reliable sources, or that the information is relevant. It simply hasn't received enough mainstream media attention to merit a place in the article. The number of times this has been repeated to you is starting to become ridiculous. By adding this to the article, we would be giving equal validity to a fringe idea, thereby validating it in a way we, as a NPOV encyclopaedia reflecting mainstream (i.e. no-fringe) scholarly ideas, cannot.

Two more things. There's no such thing as an "evolutionist". That's a term creationists use to undermine evolution by making it seem that only a small group supports it. The words you're looking for are "99% of scientists" or "mainstream science". It's interesting you chose to use that particular term. Also, stop the ad hominem accusations of bias. It's a classic tactic to draw attention away from weak argumentation, but it gets annoying after days of discussion in which you choose to ignore policy-based arguments and overwhelming consensus in favour of such accusations. There's no bias here. It's just policy/consensus vs. your opinions. Rwenonah (talk) 14:49, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Focus here. The persecution of creationists is the content being discussed and that is clearly a FRINGE theory supported by only a tiny minority and not discussed as an an alternative viewpoint but dismissed in passing in reliable sources. As a note creationism is indeed a FRINGE theory, flat earth and earth centrism also have a history but they are now clearly fringe theories, perhaps one day creationism will be consigned to the same ash heap and WP can have a historical article, but now creationism is a present day fringe theory. Source dumping without stating what each source says on the topic (persecution of creationists) is useless and without it few editors are likely to waste their time going through sources that are misrepresented to begin with. Discretionary sanctions are just that, discretionary. Disruptive editing includes tendentious editing and WP:IDHT. Misrepresenting sources and their handling of "persecution of creationists" is not acting in good faith. Ad homimen attacks are not in keeping with PAG. Subverting an RfC is not either. Add to that POV pushing with a lack of understanding or disregard for WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, WP:NOTE, WP:GEVAL, WP:DUE, WP:RS and WP:NOT reflects an editor who is not here to improve the encyclopedia. All of this together certainly rises to the level of consideration of discretionary sanctions. I thankfully leave that to administrators.

Provide reliable sources that discuss "persecution of creationists" as an alternative viewpoint or drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Note: not passing mentions, not proponents, not dismissals nor original research synthesizing this persecution, particularly not personal anecdotes indicating a conflict of interest. - - MrBill3 (talk) 15:29, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• GodBlessYou2, I'm going to give a serious and I hope helpful answer to your question above about taking this dispute to arbitration. It comes in three parts:

1. Anyone can request arbitration, though most requests are declined. This is where you file a request, if you decide to. Don't forgot to read the instructions and the guide.
2. To put it bluntly, you'd be wasting your time. Dominus Vobisdu, provoked, said above that you're wasting your time as well as other people's on this page, but in going to arbitration you would mainly be wasting your own. Starting a request is pretty complex and confusing, whereas declining it (which is what will happen, with a certainty of > 99%) is quick and easy for the arbitrators.
3. There has been an arbitration case about pseudoscience which is about these issues, which you might like take a look at. It was a long time ago (2006), but it's still often referred to, many of its decisions have made Misplaced Pages history re the way pseudoscience subjects are regarded, and alerts about the discretionary sanctions that this case created are still frequently issued (in fact, I posted one on your page recently) as well as acted on. The last time the case decision was amended by motion was a month ago, so it's very much live today.

Oh, and by the way, to your other question in your latest post above: yes, discretionary sanctions can be imposed for arguing on the talkpage, if it's taken far enough and uselessly exhausts too much of our most precious resource (=the time and energy of out volunteers). It's been done; I think I've done it myself a couple of times. But it's unusual, and I don't think you're near any such limit yet, even though the crabby bad temper of your last paragraph is eyebrow-raising. Please try to keep the level of discussion a little higher than that, even if you're feeling frustrated. Bishonen | talk 15:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC).

A sincere thank you, Bshonen, for your instructions and comments on arbitration. Obviously, I too am frustrated by how much time is being wasted on, what I think, is clearly well sourced and appropriate material. I've asked Csposper to close his RfC so as to clear the way for a new RfC which will be more clearly focused on the section I proposed rather than the one source he was making a query about. I've reworked my proposed section to expand on the statements rebutting the claims of bias, since everyone else here declined my invitation to expand on the lead and two sources I originally provided. I invite you and others here to make suggestions and changes at my sandbox, where the draft currently resides.—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 16:24, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not open to Csposper to close the RfC in such a manner - and your suggestion that he should do so in order to enable you to ignore the result is entirely inappropriate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Right, I just noticed your request to Cpsoper, but I'm afraid it doesn't work like that, just as Andy tells you; it's not "his" RfC just because he opened it, it belongs equally to everybody who has commented. None of them can close it, and not Cpsoper either, but only somebody uninvolved, a respected user from the outside. A close should then include a conclusion from the RfC, an evaluation of consensus. It's still being edited, though, so it's rather premature to close it. Meanwhile, there's no hurry, as the current consensus is obvious. And to me (and it seems to a majority of others), it's also obvious that the RfC is on the topic you propose to introduce to the article. If there's consensus that a sentence on the content is too much, it seems illogical to try to sidestep that by offering an expansion of the same content, with sources, and proposing a new RfC. The argument for excluding it isn't even mainly a matter of sourcing, but of weight. There's a limit to how many times people should be obliged to voice the same concerns. In that regard, you may want to consider what I said above about exhausting the time and energy of our volunteers. It can become disruptive. Bishonen | talk 16:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC).

You guys should read the policy for closing RfC's which specifically states that the person initiating the RfC can close it: "may be withdrawn by the poster." Which makes sense, precisely for cases like this if the original post stimulates efforts to go a different way.

Moreover, the original RfC did not request a comment on a topic but was specifically a request about the reliability of a single source, specifically Bergman, which Csposper proposed to use in a very specific single sentence entry which he offered up for comment. I am not seeking to ignore the prior result. In fact I agreed with the prior result. His proposed edit was not adequate.

My proposed contribution does not rely on Bergman, but does include Bergman in the context of several additional sources precisely in ways that Andy and other indicated would be necessary when they responded to the RfC. My contribution is also clearly far different and much more complete than anything Cspospers appeared to be suggestng. I think it is appropriate to ask for a new round of comments regarding my proposal...which is not the same as Cspospers.

I take note, once more, that neither of you have addressed the substance of all the sources I have used or how I have presented the material. Instead, you appear to just want me to go away and pretend that my contribution has no merit. Instead of continually raising objections, how about shifting gear to pitch in to help make the entry one that best reflects the available material? Once again: add more material if you like!—GodBlessYou2 (talk) 19:11, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Since there is already strong consensus that what you are proposing is not appropriate per due weight, fringe, and giving equal validity it may be better not to start a new RfC. Such pointless persistence may be seen as disruptive editing.Charles (talk) 19:25, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Charles beat me to it, but I agree that starting another RFC now would be disruptive since the consensus in the first is very clear and you have already received abundant feedback from many editors about the merits, or lack thereof, of your proposal. Continuing to peddle your proposal would also be disruptive, as it has been pointed out to you by many editors that it does not conform to our policies and guidelines by a wide mile.

Your best option at this point would be to WP:Drop the stick and carefully read the policies and guidelines I listed above so that you have a clue what other, more experienced, editors and administrators are saying to you. And so that you can talk to them in language that they can understand you, as well.

Right now, you are neither listening nor understanding and, as far as I can tell, have no desire to do so, which makes me serious believe that you are WP:NOTHERE. I invite you to prove me wrong. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:40, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@GodBlessYou2 Your proposed contribution has been addressed, multiple times, at great length. The overwhelming consensus is that the substance of your proposal does NOT merit inclusion in this article. I don't know how any one can make it any clearer to you. The relevant polices have been explained to you, again, at great length. Your assertion that "... it is appropriate to ask for a new round of comments regarding my proposal.." is incorrect. Your proposal has been discussed and dealt with. You don't have to like it but it would behoove you to accept that your proposal has been soundly rejected. I implore you to take the advice of Charles, Bishonen, AndyTheGrump, Dominus Vobisdu and myself and back away from this.--Adam in MO Talk 20:29, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• All, and I include admins, please just take a breather for a day or three. May help discussion be more on content and more calm. I also request GodBlessYou2 then return, using any productive inputs among the mix so far. Markbassett (talk) 20:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
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