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Recent edit to Gender

Hello, and thank you for your recent contribution. I appreciate the effort you made for our project, but unfortunately I had to undo your edit because I believe the article was better before you made that change. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions. Thank you! ~ Boomur 23:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

You made an edit, without addressing the points raised in the talk section, and did so because "because I believe the article was better before you made that change"? That's inappropriate. The two sentences blatantly contradict each other. I'm sorry, but if you prefer that contradiction, well, too bad. "Gender identity is the gender a person self-identifies as." and "Categorizing males and females into social roles creates a problem, because individuals feel they have to be at one end of a linear spectrum and must identify themselves as man or woman, rather than being allowed to choose a section in between. " I'm changing it back because the choice is actually an important aspect as the paragraph goes on to note. Was this some sort of advocacy?Maxxx12345 (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Boomur was right to revert you, and now I've reverted you for the reason noted in that edit summary. For the vast majority of people, gender identity is not a choice; various research supports that. The topics of gender binary and genderqueer do not stop the fact that people usually identify with a gender by age three of four; it is not a conscious choice at that age, but rather what that person feels internally is their gender. For that sentence, I will apply sources used in the Gender identity article, and those sources don't use the word choice for what gender identity is. Perhaps it is your edit, not Boomur's, that speaks of advocacy. And if you start WP:Edit warring over this matter, it will do you no favors. And do beware that I usually instantly know when an editor is not new to editing Misplaced Pages. You don't come across to me as new to editing Misplaced Pages. If you want to discuss this gender identity matter further, then take it to Talk:Gender. Do not bring this matter to my talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it was Trankuility who reverted you; see here. So I struck part of my post above. Flyer22 (talk) 02:33, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Also, instead of using the sources from the Gender identity article for when gender identity is usually formed and it usually being very difficult to change after that point, I will add other WP:Reliable sources, and then update the Gender identity article with those sources. Flyer22 (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

No, that is false. There are contradictions in the article, and I noted it on the edit page. That is not a matter of advocacy by the way, Fly22, it's called fixing an inconsistency. We'll try this again.

"Categorizing males and females into social roles creates a problem, because individuals feel they have to be at one end of a linear spectrum and must identify themselves as man or woman, rather than being allowed to choose a section in between." See the word choose? It can't be both, Fly22. Choice can't be not present in the first sentence, but then present in the first sentence of the next paragraph. I'm not sure why you're having a problem seeing the contradiction here, it's quite straight forward.

Also, the Butler material would have to go too, clearly. For Butler, gender identity is more of a verb than noun. She's of course famous for her position that there is a choice that exists in gaps in regulatory norms. And I quote " Freedom, possibility, agency do not have an abstract or presocial status, but are always negotiated within a matrix of power." This is exactly WHY she can't just construct her gender willy-nilly. This is all detailed in citation, Gender Trouble.

If you don't want choice in the section, that's up to you, but then you have to take it out. Out goes the problem of limiting choice due to categorizing males and females into social roles. Out goes Butler's stance of choice and how it's limited by regulatory norms.

That's not advocacy, Fly22, that's pointing out a blatant contradiction. And by the way, I DID mention this on the Gender talk page and did NOT bring it to your page. You were the one that brought it to mine. Apparently this needs to be brought to someone else's attention because the obvious inconsistency in the section should be fixed.Maxxx12345 (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Different beliefs among people about what gender identity is should be in the Gender article. We include different definitions and views of biological sex, gender and gender identity in the Gender article, just like we include different definitions and views of domestic violence in the Domestic violence article. We include WP:Notable definitions and views in articles that have more than one definition or view for a topic. You have once again cited the topic of gender binary, as if that changes the fact that people usually identify with a gender by age three of four; in the usual case, it is not a conscious choice at that age (except for natural gender variance aspects that can happen as a child is exploring what it means to be a boy or a girl), but rather what that person feels internally is their gender. You act like not including the words choice or chooses to for the sentence you challenged means that we are stating that people are born with a gender identity; it's not a matter of "you are born this way or you are raised this way"; it is a complex combination of biology and environment, just like sexual orientation is. You want to call gender identity a choice, when it is, in fact, not a choice for the vast majority of people. That is the problem with your edit. Leaving the words "chooses to" out of describing gender identity is not a problem; stating "Gender identity is the gender a person identifies as." is neutral, and does not speak of whether gender identity is a choice or not. Stating "Gender identity is the gender a person chooses to self-identifies as." is not neutral. And has a grammar problem with the word self-identifies; should be self-identify.

And as for why I told you to not bring this matter to my talk page: You took the matter to Boomur's talk page. Article matters should ideally be dealt with at the article talk page. I prefer to keep talk page discussions centralized; see WP:TALKCENT. Further, stating or implying that editors are engaging in WP:Advocacy with regard to this gender identity topic, as you have done above and here, should stop. My user page is very clear that I do not tolerate WP:Advocacy. I am going by what the overwhelming majority of research states of gender identity; WP:Due weight and all that. Flyer22 (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more that there should be an inclusion of differing views on the subject within the section, that's not the problem. The problem is that the section is inconsistent in trying to describe WHAT the subject matter is in fact. Nothing I've addressed limited this in any way, even though the section is clearly not developed to such a point. In defining the section, X, there are clearly predicates of c and ~c, and that of course is a problem. In no way did I cite gender binary: choice regarding self identification in no way entails a binary or mutually exclusive disjunct. In fact, I stated just the opposite, several times, in noting the sentence detailing how societal roles deny choice, which as the sentences illustrates can take place on a continuum. (Which by the way is how I self identify so do NOT tell me I supporting or advocating for an opposing view.) Again, I added choice because that's how the section defines the subject. And AGAIN, if you do not wish that to be the case, you need to remove much of the section. I keep noting this problem, but for some reason it seems to be ignored, as if that somehow solves the inconsistency problem. One hardly need be an expert in first order predicate logic to illustrate the problems in the section, they are in fact quite obvious.

I've posted for another editor to review the section and address the clear contradictions in defining the section. With all due respect, you're either intentionally not addressing some straight forward contradictions, or just failing to see them (which could be my failing also for not describing them clearly enough). We'll simply have another professional philosophy, there are many here, view the contradictions for themselves, they're not hard to spot.Maxxx12345 (talk) 04:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

You cited the gender binary aspect by citing the "Categorizing males and females into social roles creates a problem, because individuals feel they have to be at one end of a linear spectrum and must identify themselves as man or woman, rather than being allowed to choose a section in between." line. I'm not sure what your point is, but you should copy and paste your latest reply there at the Gender talk page, like I did, and keep the discussion there instead of at different places. Flyer22 (talk) 05:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)