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POV Issues Regarding Controversy Section

The "shooting" section is way too difficult to follow. WHEN was the first shot fired? I mean, is there an actual time that Wilson says he first fired at Brown> Also, it says "an unidentified officer" arrived at the scene? How is this possible that after the grand jury proceedings this officer is STILL unidentified?

I pretty much agree with everything that TParis wrote at ani. This article has NPOV issues. The article relies too heavily on the opinions of non-notable commentators and their criticism. The article is also littered with weasel words and phrases like "some legal experts" and terms like "asserted" and "claimed", which are all discouraged by MOS. The controversy section for the grand jury hearing is a prime example of undue weight with the amount of criticism in that section. That table really needs to go too, what is the significance of having that, it's not even true. These jurors were a typical grand jury that were conducting typical grand jury business, doing exactly everything listed in the first column, before Wilson's case was given to them, there's no mention of that in the table. The criticism in Wilson's section has weasel phrases like "sources reported" and "other discrepancies" without defining who the sources are or what the other discrepancies are. It also provides no context at all either, like the fact that the grand jury was made aware of these inconsistencies before Wilson even testified. There just seems to be a lot of cherry-picking sources to negatively portray Wilson, law-enforcement officers, prosecutors and the grand jurors. Isaidnoway (talk) 02:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the reason for at least one occurrence of "some legal experts" is that the source says "some legal experts". Obviously we can't say it in Misplaced Pages's voice, so are you suggesting it should be left out of the article because the source declined to identify the legal experts? I would disagree. As for "other discrepancies", if those were elaborated it would be attacked as undue weight, so it appears there's no way to include such material at all. It's either undue weight or weasel words. I'll abstain from discussion about the table for lack of competence in that area. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 02:28, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

First, this has almost nothing to do with Gaijin42's post in #More terse summaries in the witness accounts and I've refactored it into a new section (if not, go ahead and undo it). I disagree that this article has NPOV issues. Notability does not apply to content, and we should instead be looking at due weight. In this case, it seems that the majority of opinions are biased against Wilson, the prosecution team and the grand jury, which is why it's reported so heavily in the article; unless it's out of proportion, there shouldn't be anything wrong with this. Sources that argue to the contrary are present; if there are others, they should be included to keep due weight. The "some legal experts" phrase is a leftover from the LA Times article, which provided a number of legal opinions. While out of context it may seem like a weasel phrase, the rest of the section references by legal experts mentioned in the source by name, so it really isn't a weasel phrase. Assertions and claims are only weasel words when implying a point is inaccurate, which is hardly the case here. The table is sourced to NYT, which is why we have it. I don't see what's the problem with having it here, maybe you could clarify? The other two instances are poorly paraphrased: the "sources reported" is actually the Huffington Post's analysis, but the analysis that went into their article was cut out of ours so that'll have to be reworked; there's only one discrepancy reported in the CNN article, so I went ahead and reworded that phrase. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be blatant cherry-picking of POVs as far as I can tell. --RAN1 (talk) 03:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Once you have summarized and presented information to the reader in an encyclopedic tone - following that up with an endless stream of cherry-picked opinions of non-notable commentators is undue piling on. I completely agree that the majority of the reporting is negative against Wilson and the other entities involved in this case, but that doesn't mean we pack as many negative opinions that we can into a section, or the article, and still claim it's NPOV, because that's not neutral. We should be summarizing and including the most notable opinions or academic opinions, instead of being a depository for negative opinions that don't really impart any encyclopedic information to the reader. The weasel phrases "some legal experts" and "sources reported" is exactly that - weasel phrasing - and should never be used in this article, especially when there are more than enough legal experts identified by name offering legal opinions. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I really don't think the opinions are cherry-picked unless we're missing pro-Wilson/prosecutor references, and notability really doesn't matter for sources. I took a closer look at the article though, and I noticed that we're quoting a lot of the opinions directly, which is probably compromising impartial tone. We should neutrally summarize the arguments instead of quoting them, and I think that should fix the POV problem. Btw, "some legal experts" isn't a weasel phrase when used in the header or (especially) when the legal experts are clarified after the fact. Using that phrase should be ok. "Sources reported" is weasel phrasing, and I'll take the time to reword that sentence later today. --RAN1 (talk) 19:33, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S. And now my refactoring's a moot point. Whoops. --RAN1 (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there was blatant cherry-picking of POVs, but I think there was a desire to represent a greater variety of opinions than was necessary. There are so many opinions from so many sources that it would be much more helpful to avoid arguing why a given source is acceptable despite having issues like weasel words and unnamed sources. We could simply choose sources that don't do that.

In general, I objected to the inclusion of journalists' opinions about the legal issues because there were also several published opinions from real lawyers about the legal issues. In the point where there was a formal statement from the ACLU and an analysis by the Huffington Post, the first source was a much better choice than the other. Roches (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

RFC

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Since the above discussion keeps running around in circles :

The grand jury Controversy section currently* consists of 18 quotes/opinions plus the table.

• Should we keep quotes, or move to a more prose style summary
  • If kept as quotes, should the number of quotes be reduced
  • Or a summary plus a small number of representative quotes
• Should the table be kept, or moved into prose

* The current version may differ from the version when this RFC started.

Survey

• Move most quotes to summary style keeping only most 2-3 most notable/important voices as quotes. Keep table. IF WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV is controlling, reduce number of quotes/opinions as currently WP:UNDUE Gaijin42 (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Convert table to prose per Bob's excellent point that doing so allows us to avoid the WP:SYNTH issue while presenting more accurate information. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

See the subsection Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 06:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• This section needs an opening paragraph that gives a clear and concise overview of the nature of the controversy, convert table to text and summarize salient points, reduce amount of legal/academic opinions, remove all weasel phrasing. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summary with representative quotes, keep table without charges row - Not most notable quotes, just representative of author opinions that can be included in as neutrally-worded as possible. We have people to attribute to, so undue doesn't apply. Table should be kept with charges row removed since it isn't consistent with grand jury transcript. --RAN1 (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep charges row, I interpreted it wrong. --RAN1 (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summary with representative quotes, keep table as is Convert to prose - The summary does not need to represent a false balance as, if the prevalent opinion as repressed in its reporting is negative, we should not hide that fact per NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• Use minimal quotes and emend the table to accurately state that the charges were presented to the grand jury. Collect (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
• Use minimal quotes and emend table as per Collect. Quotes in this case should not be "representative." Summarize material included in quotes instead wherever the exact word-for-word nature of the quote does not make such summary difficult. If there is clear reason for doing so, it would certainly be possible to include any quotations deemed truly necessary in the individual citations for the summarized material. John Carter (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summarize the quotes and replace the table with text — See the subsection Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 06:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summarize the quotes and replace table with text - Per: WP:QUOTEFARM and removing table fixes WP:UNDUE issue of the display. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:06, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summarize the quotes and replace table with text - It will make things much easier for the reader to parse the text and understand the issues if we do these things. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
• Replace with prose. Use as source material only quotes from notable people who have specific knowledge of the field, with an emphasis on those from MO. Clearly explain why this is different than the majority of grand jury hearings. Do not criticize the system by criticizing the way this case was handled, because it was not handled in an unusual way according to the legal practices in that jurisdiction. Roches (talk) 15:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
• Summarize quotes, but identify sources. I think the point here ought to be not just to confine comment to notable sources, but identify them. If there's Toobin, Dershowitz, and Turley all saying the grand jury presentation by the DA was flawed, and Volokh saying that it was fine, then that actually gives the reader the information he or she needs to decide what's going on regardless of their ideological perspective. While wikipedia isn't in the business of telling the truth, neither ought it to be in the business of perpetuating the American press' mistakes and presenting partisan comment as nonpartisan comment. There are at least two sides to this controversy - we ought to make sure the reader knows it and knows that wikipedia stands apart from either side. loupgarous (talk) 15:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
• Summarize the quotes and replace the table with text Prose is always preferable on WP. Quotes in a box are just a list. AlbinoFerret 01:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Threaded discussion — POV Issues Regarding Controversy Section

Table Charges Row

• Here's the charges row of the table.

It has the false implication that the Wilson prosecutor didn't present a range of charges. The NYTimes article made the same false implication in its table. If it was intentional on the part of the NYT author, it would be a lie by omission. If we intentionally keep it, it would be a lie by omission on our part. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:26, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

red herring. The sentence needs to be read in toto: "Prosecutors presents a range of charges and ask grand jury to indict". McCullough did the former, but not the latter, which is the point that NYT is making. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Then say that more explicitly, as the table reads as if they did neither. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Actually, as is we can't say it explicitly because the NYT article didn't. WP:NOR We would have to change the in-text attribution from "According to the The New York Times" to "According to the The New York Times" except as indicated", then give an inline citation at the item, for the source that said he presented a range of charges. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

BTW, we wouldn't have to go through these contortions if we summarized the table in text instead of using the table form, which takes up an excessive amount of space compared to a text summary. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Excellent point that moving to prose lets us avoid the WP:SYNTH issue. I have changed my !vote accordingly. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:23, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Table must state "Range of charges presented to grand jury which did not decide to charge Wilson" as being accurate here. Else we imply in Misplaced Pages's voice that the charges were not presented to the grand jury. The table currently inaptly implies that the Wilson grand jury was not typical, and by not mentioning that the charges were presented, implies that charges were not presented. Collect (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I've modified the charges row so that it puts the emphasis on the word "ask". Here is a copy below :

I'm thinking this should clarify the wording, looking for other opinions. --RAN1 (talk) 20:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Good for me. Thanks for the effort. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

It still leaves out that the prosecutor provided the grand jury with charges, which the source also left out. In any case, I don't think you can fix it because it's not in the source, WP:NOR. Here's the charges part of the source's table for reference.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 04:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I've replaced it with "McCulloch did not recommend any of the presented charges against Wilson." That should resolve the issue. --RAN1 (talk) 06:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Btw, I'm going to source vox as a matter of sourcing the charges presented. If this still looks like NOR, go ahead and suggest alternatives. --RAN1 (talk) 07:03, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

RAN1, It suggests that the charges were presented by someone else, or may be confusing because "recommend" and "present" are similar. That's one of the reasons why the source was a problem. Also, it's OR because the Vox article wasn't making a comparison with a typical grand jury. A possible improvement that is clearer for comparison in various ways is, "The prosecutor provided a range of charges for the jury to consider but didn't ask the jury to indict." However, without a source that uses this in a comparison with a typical grand jury, it would be OR too, although there is WP:IAR. In any case, note how this was easily handled in the Proposal to replace table, which is below. --Bob K31416 (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, you're probably right on the OR part. That said, writing it in prose form would also be OR as it's mainly the synthesis of information that's violating OR, so ultimately this doesn't work out. --RAN1 (talk) 17:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

RAN1, No, the proposed version wouldn't be synth because it would only use the NYT article, not the Vox article. The proposed prose handles it by mentioning the differences, not the similarities. The differences between a typical grand jury and the Wilson grand jury was the point of the NYT's table. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no mention of the prosecutor asking for an indictment in the NYT article, so it's OR as far as I know. I've made my best effort to focus on the difference in the table as well. Still, I decided to move the Vox sourcing to outside of the table since you were right about the synth. Let me know what you think. --RAN1 (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Could you clarify your comment, "There is no mention of the prosecutor asking for an indictment in the NYT article, so it's OR as far as I know."? Quoting the excerpt from NYT that you're referring to might help.
• In your latest version, "McCulloch did not recommend any charges against Wilson.", what is that supposed to mean? Does it mean that he didn't ask for an indictment, or that he didn't present any charges for the jury to consider, or what?
• BTW there were 5 charges, not 4. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The only mentions of the prosecutor in the NYT is comments about the grand jury not indicting and which witnesses were "most credible", as well as his release of evidence and the grand jury leeway on evidence. Then it's the table. There's no mention of him not asking for an indictment, which makes that prose (if sourced to the NYT) OR in that regard. What I put in the table means he didn't ask the grand jury to indict on any charges, which seems to correspond to the implications provided in the article. The Vox statement clarifies that charges were presented. I've only seen four charges in media and in the released grand jury transcript, what was the 5th charge? --RAN1 (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Re "There's no mention of him not asking for an indictment, which makes that prose (if sourced to the NYT) OR in that regard. What I put in the table means he didn't ask the grand jury to indict on any charges.” — What’s the difference between “not asking for an indictment” and "didn’t ask the grand jury to indict on any charges”?

• Re "I've only seen four charges in media and in the released grand jury transcript, what was the 5th charge?" — ABC and USAToday reported there were five charges. In the grand jury transcripts, Vol. 24, p133–134, there was 1) Murder in the first degree, 2) murder in the second degree, 3) voluntary manslaughter , 4) involuntary manslaughter in the first degree, 5) involuntary manslaughter in the second degree.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 04:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You're correct about the charge count. There was a page break in the grand jury documents that...um...disrupted my ability to count to 5. As for the other part, there is no difference, you're correct. If the survey keeps shifting toward text, your prose version should be ok policy-wise. There is a formatting issue I want to bring up: Can we drop the parentheses and rework the data into the sentence? Dropping in (A vs B) 3 times into a sentence makes for a really awkward display of data. --RAN1 (talk) 07:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to replace table

Replace this table that is currently in the article:

with the following text:

According to The New York Times, the grand jury proceedings differed from typical ones in Missouri. For the Wilson case, they lasted much longer (25 days over 3 months vs 1 day), the prosecutor did not ask for an indictment, there were many more witnesses (60 vs a few), the defendant testified, and all of the evidence and testimony was released to the public after the defendant was not indicted, where in typical grand juries it is usually kept secret.

--Bob K31416 (talk) 05:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Survey consensus seems to be to keep the table. If it changes though, this looks like a decent draft replacement. --RAN1 (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Replace the distracting table. There is much wrong with the assumptions being advanced, but we do not need a giant table drawing really inappropriate and WP:UNDUE attention. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:49, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

#Survey is up there. --RAN1 (talk) 07:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Investigatory Grand Jury

If there is consensus to keep the table, then the header titled "Wilson's case" should be re-titled to accurately reflect that this was an "Investigatory grand jury", which is obviously why there are differences. We shouldn't be implying that Wilson's case was handled any differently than other investigatory grand jury proceeding. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, there is no such thing as a investigatory grand jury under Missouri Statutes. Also, Missouri grand juries are usually kept secret and aren't described in that way. Because of both of these issues, the label "investigatory" is simply contentious and contributes nothing of value. --RAN1 (talk) 02:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a typical grand jury under Missouri statutes either. In Missouri, the citizens that are empaneled to serve are simply called a "grand jury".period. My comment is in relation to the labels describing the different tasks they were assigned. The source used for this table described it as a "grand jury investigation", so did other sources USA Today, WaPo. Sources are what we use on WP and that is what my comment was based on. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I used the wording typical because you used the wording typical, but if you're willing to discard it, I'm all for it. Also, the wording "grand jury investigation" is not synonymous with the wording "investigatory grand jury". One refers to the investigation of the grand jury, the other implies that the grand jury was of a different type. The latter is contentious wording (implying that the grand jury operated differently because it was of a different type) and should not be used. --RAN1 (talk) 20:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I never used the wording typical, so that doesn't even matter. --RAN1 (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Investigatory is nothing more than an adjective used to describe the conduct of the proceedings, which in this case was a "grand jury investigation" - per the sources. The table under discussion here is used to highlight how the grand jury operated differently in Wilson's case, which was an investigatory case vs. a typical case, so obviously there is nothing contentious about using an adjective to accurately describe their conduct of a "grand jury investigation". Isaidnoway (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

As noted below, investigatory isn't language that is rooted in Missouri state law or comparisons of grand juries there, since most proceedings are kept secret. Therefore, there's no way to use this language to compare Wilson's case with other grand jury cases in Missouri. Also, describing the grand jury as "investigatory" might be interpreted based on the laws of other states, so it's pretty contentious. This isn't even mentioned in any other survey opinions, so unless an RfC is made specifically for this, there is no consensus for this. --RAN1 (talk) 00:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I never asserted that investigatory was rooted in MO state law or any other law, but rather it was an adjective in the English language used as a descriptor for purposes of labeling the differences in this table - based on reliable sourcing. So there is nothing contentious or inapppropriate about using a simple adjective in the English language as a term to label the differences in the table under discussion. Don't really care if it's mentioned in other survey opinions, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm certainly not going to open a RfC, and whatever the outcome of the survey is and the consensus is for the table, I'm OK with that as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:30, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Not to be a pain in the ass, but it was a sitting grand jury. Debating over this part of the fact seems a bit odd when they sit for terms and it was extended for this case, but no context illuminates this fact in the article. Also, that table is being used to support a major impropriety of all conventional comparisons. I'll not distract the point here, but comparing the mundane to the extraordinary and holding it up as evidence of wrong doing is hilarious when grand juries can take years. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Bad, Bad Michael Brown

Chris, this was a wholly unnecessary watering down of the paragraph. – JBarta (talk) 20:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I re-inserted most of it, though I did end up removing the "horrific racist song" bit. Readers can decide for themselves if it was "horrific", just bad taste or a harmless amusement. – JBarta (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Is this really getting enough press to warrant inclusion? Thargor Orlando (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

You tell me – JBarta (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

If you're asking me based solely on these Google results, no. Of the reliable sources listed (and our use of TMZ is horrible here, by the way), they're almost uniformly local in nature to Los Angeles. I don't see, at first glance, where the real noteworthiness of this is. Thargor Orlando (talk) 22:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it adds very little to the article and I'm generally in favor of removal. That said, if it's included the current version is fine. Dyrnych (talk) 22:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I am OK with current version as well. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:23, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The noteworthiness of TMZ is that they broke the story first (AFAIK). They break a lot of this sort of thing first. All part of the narrative. – JBarta (talk) 23:31, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not see why we need to quote anything or give this much attention at all - much sound and fury over something foolish. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:42, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It's one small paragraph... not much sound and fury at all. – JBarta (talk) 06:33, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It's been covered locally and nationally, and I agree with those papers in deeming this incident to be significant. -Darouet (talk) 06:54, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@JBarta: The attention in the media is sound and fury over something foolish, but whatever sells the papers these days. I didn't say that there is an issue with inclusion - but this will blow over quickly. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

@Darouet:: Well, in all fairness, significant largely because this general topic is a hot news item and anything that can conceivably be balled up and hurled at a wall is gonna stick. If this were to happen when the country's collective outrage were focused on something else, this video, along with half the crap connected to the Michael Brown shooting wouldn't even hit the radar. I'll give all those protesters and rioters credit for one thing... they sure managed to whip up some attention. – JBarta (talk) 07:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Where has it been covered nationally in reliable sources? The only national coverage has been via Gawker as of the link from yesterday. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

LA Times , ABC news - Cwobeel (talk) 17:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Local newspaper, local ABC affiliate. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:44, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Both of which are reliable sources. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

While the sources are certainly reliable, I too doubt the appropriate weight of this item. This song is in exceptionally poor taste, but did not in any way affect the shooting, was not done or attended by anyone involved in the shooting, and has not had a substantial impact after the shooting. Based on the lack of substantial coverage outside the area it happened, it has not become a part of the overall narrative, and we should not make it so on our own. Its only value in the article appears to be "some racists with bad taste don't like Michael Brown" - and that is not really information anyone didn't already know. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that the video bit doesn't have anything to do with anyone involved in the shooting. While no specific persons share a connection, the fact that it was an event for and attended by cops is a significant connection. Part of the narrative here is the relationship between police in general and the black community in general. This event speaks to the notion that (white?)cops simply don't care about black lives. It may be a correct notion or it may be incorrect depending on who you ask. But there doesn't need to be a material connection between the two events given that there's such a functional and philosophical connection. – JBarta (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You might be right, but the point remains is that this is basically a footnote of local interest, not at all noteworthy in the Brown situation. Not that the sources aren't reliable or that the issues might be relevant philosophically. Thargor Orlando (talk) 00:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

While I disagree that it's merely a "local interest" story, if it helps, here are a few national items on it... , , ... and one from half way around the world... . That said, unless something major comes of it, I would agree with your characterization of "footnote" and agree it deserves no more than brief mention... maybe a small paragraph... like it does at the moment. – JBarta (talk) 00:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

While a couple of those aren't reliable, CBS certainly is and I have no further protest about the section anymore. Thargor Orlando (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Seems to me that the question to be asked should be, "Is a mention of the video encyclopedic in nature and does it help the reader in better understanding the article subject"? Just because something is found via reliable sources that doesn't automatically make it inclusion-worthy. I find its inclusion problematic on a number of levels, with being tabloid-like (rather than encyclopedic) in nature only one. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

You say "problematic on a number of levels". What are the other levels? – JBarta (talk) 01:16, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the problems, in my view, is that in showcasing a relatively obscure racist portrayal of Brown by (presumably) a Wilson supporter, it ties support of Wilson to racism in a way that's far out of proportion to the significance of the event. Dyrnych (talk) 01:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

In answer to your question, JBarta, everything already brought up by others in this thread when questioning whether this actually warrants inclusion. It's not directly related, it's undue weight, it's barely a footnote, etc. If it's to be mentioned in this article at all, it should be in the external links, but nothing more than that. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a collection of trivia and sort-of-related knick-knacks. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Mentioned in the external links exactly how? – JBarta (talk) 02:03, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, that would be putting in a link to it. But, I honestly don't think it should be there. Mentioning it as an alternative was a weak suggestion to compromise. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:10, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Putting a link to what? And what would the link text be? Though, if you're backing off that idea, I understand. – JBarta (talk) 02:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not backing off of anything. I speak my mind and don't hedge nor do I try to back away from things to save face (which is what you seem to be implying). The content is about a video. The link I'm referring to is to the video in the two references and at the TMZ website (which, by the way, TMZ is not considered a reliable source in Misplaced Pages). If any content regarding the video must be included in the article (and I don't believe it should be) then it should be a link to the video, period. Even then, I don't think it should even be included there. I think it's completely unencyclopedic, has no relation to the case, doesn't involve the characters surrounding the case, and has no relevance or encyclopedic value. Clear enough for you? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

@Winkelvi: makes a good argument that if this article was up for FA review it would almost certainly be a questionable inclusion. It has nothing to do with the case or any of the parties involved. Instead it is a private function by a completely different group of people that was organized and attended by former (and maybe active) police officers that had a singer perform an offensive song. Considering Michael Brown's raps or desire for further education is so unnecessary are we really going to justify this insertion? A sentence, tops, is all that I can really see for this. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

This is not an FA or GA article, so I don;t understand why this is being brought up. The incident is notable to have a short mention, given the racial;y charged aspects that permeated this incident from the beginning. - Cwobeel (talk) 05:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

On the way to GA, FA, or no-A -- it really doesn't matter. The content is cheap and cheesy and isn't worthy of mention in an encyclopedia article. It has nothing to do with the article subject (or those directly involved), it doesn't enhance the reader's understanding of the subject, it comes from a tabloid source, and just isn't encyclopedic in nature. Essentially, it's akin to what you'd find in a "In popular culture" section. A section that would not belong in this type of article, by the way. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree, this has little to no place on Misplaced Pages, especially since this is the kind of scandal-mongering that's explicitly not allowed. I'm for cutting it down to a sentence, something like:

On December 23, the Los Angeles Police Department opened a preliminary investigation of a parody of Bad, Bad Leroy Brown, mocking the death of Michael Brown, performed at an event organized by a retired police officer.

That's all that needs to be mentioned. Either way this doesn't deserve its own paragraph. --RAN1 (talk) 06:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

That is basically what I cut it down to and it is also what touched this section off. Though your wording is better than mine here. So I recommend yours. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:35, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Does no one think that the guy's apology deserves mention? We just pretend that part doesn't exist? – JBarta (talk) 15:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The event is very tangental, and I think any coverage of it is undue. These are people completely unrelated to the event. If this is is included, then certainly we should be including the parking lot robbery/fight by Brown's family, or the arson by a high profile Ferguson protester (or many other issues where one side or the other did something that reflects poorly on them) basically the door is wide open and going to be a huge NPOV problem. I am going to remove it. If it is restored, i will open an RFC asking for input on all of the tangental issues to get a better guideline for what type of incidents should be included in this article Gaijin42 (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree. We make a mistake in confusing "topicality" and "notability" - a prior poster in this thread made the statement that the "Bad, Bad, Michael Brown" song made the press because it sells ad copy. Misplaced Pages doesn't have that imperative, nor should it. We're a volunteer project supported by donations specifically to free us to write NPOV encyclopedic articles, not to perpetuate every mistake the press makes on a hot story, because they're competing for viewers' eyetracks and are not obliged to be objective or reflective in what they say. Misplaced Pages at its best complements commercial news coverage by providing a place where an effort is made to present all notable points of view.

Just maybe, we need that RFC to produce a guideline as to what possibly tangential occurrences belong in this article. Otherwise, we'd be in the absurd position of parroting sensationalistic news coverage because it's presumed to be notable, and is actually topical and of no lasting interest or real relevance to the central events described in the article.loupgarous (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Atypical jury

I want to add a good section on why the grand jury process was different, but this needs to be non-judgmental per NPOV. Each draft I make comes out very negatively and poorly worded. In reviewing the situation, the unusual length stemmed from the unusual decision to review all the evidence. This includes exonerating evidence which is not typically presented. The original intention of McCulloch was to submit all the evidence and present charges - without advocating for a particular charge, which was unusual. After that, the matter of Wilson testifying is unusual. The choice to record, document and release the documents and evidence was also unusual. Side issues of whether or not McCulloch should have recused himself should be handled near the top of the article under a section dealing with the key persons. Issues relating to blunders and such should be outside the overview of the grand jury details. Anyone want to draft a section up? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:52, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Could you post a draft under your userspace, maybe something to start this off? It'd be nice to know what you've come up with to try to see how we can improve it. --RAN1 (talk) 06:58, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

User:ChrisGualtieri/sandbox for now. Several key pieces from the other text sections are going to be moved up and around. So think of this as "grand jury and grand jury response", but not aftermath or anything else. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:10, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I think I did a better job summarizing the criticism, but the jury section is still weak. Public reactions to the grand jury is definitely moving in the right direction, but is incoherent as the analysis of the forensic issues should be placed in the proper section. The draft is missing Witness 40 issues, but that is something not handled in the article either. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I liked the way you named the notable legal commenters along with their comments on McCullough's management of the case before the grand jury. That allows the reader to decide how to weight the comments, instead of making that decision ourselves as editors. It ought to be cited as an example of how to report on contentious subjects in wikipedia. loupgarous (talk) 15:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, that means a lot to me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

McCulloch interview

Cwobeel added this content consisting of: {{talkquote|In an interview on December 19, his first after the announcement of no bill, McCulloch firmly defended his handling of the grand jury – such as presenting all evidence including witness testimony that was discredited, instead of a narrow thesis of the case – and said that "y job is not to get an indictment, my job is to seek the truth, and seek justice and do what is right and what’s appropriate in there, and that’s what we did in this case and all other cases."] Can anyone honestly say this is a neutral presentation of a half-hour long discussion? There is some uncredited editorializing from the source with "such as presenting all evidence including witness testimony that was discredited, instead of a narrow thesis of the case" The source is very poor for a NYT source has typos like "Mr. McCullough". McCulloch says he could have presented it in such a skewed fashion to get a murder charge based on Johnson alone. McCulloch also said that Brown's father cannot be charged with inciting a riot - the charge does not exist in the state - and that nobody burned anything down. (15:30) McCulloch acknowledges Witness 40 (not explicitly), but wanted the jury to hear everything by witnesses and assess the credibility of the witnesses. More interestingly is that McCulloch points to the Justice Dept as the source of the leaks. The NYT source is really poor and let's just use a transcript or directly for citing McCulloch's words. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 08:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone honestly say this is a neutral presentation of a half-hour long discussion. It may, or may not be a neutral presentation of the subject, but our role is not to pass judgement on the neutrality of sources such as The New Your Times (what may be neutral to you may be not neutral to me and vice-versa). That is not what NPOV or BLP tells us. You will have a really hard time convincing anyone that the New York Times is a "poor" source. Again, our role is not to report "facts", but to present significat viewpoints about a subject, in particular on controversial subjects on which there is no binary "true" or "false". - Cwobeel (talk)

I'm working on that but it will take me some time. My draft is based on putting the basic issue on how the grand jury was different and what the results were. Then saving the criticism for a section to it which goes through the problems since the quotes are not really an ideal situation. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:31, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is a good idea to segregate criticism to its own section. Also, please be careful with WP:OR. It is best to let the sources speak for themselves and avoid synthesizing to an extreme. It is a narrow path, you know. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

It would not be helpful to have the criticism of process in the grand jury section. Here is the section I am working on

The grand jury proceedings were atypical because there was a departure from normal proceedings on many aspects.<ref name=WashPost.Fair/> From the beginning of the process, McCulloch announced that the grand jury would hear all the evidence, that proceedings would be transcribed and the materials would be made public if there was no indictment. The American grand jury process operates in secret to collect evidence and to test the memory of witnesses against that evidence; this is done to prevent witnesses from altering their testimony to match statements made by previous witnesses. These secret proceedings are not normally made public in cases of no indictment, but in this case it was to provide transparency to the process.<ref name=WashPost.Fair/>

The grand jury process deviated from normal course by investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present.<ref name=WashPost.Fair/> Typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge. In this case, the prosecution presented the full range of charges with none being specifically endorsed. These deviations also included the length of time for which the grand jury investigation.<ref name=WashPost.Fair/> It would take the grand jury 25 days over the span of three months to hear more than 5,000 pages of testimony from 60 witnesses and then deliberate on whether or not to indict Wilson.<ref name=USAToday.Charges/><ref name=WashPost.Fair/><!-- Ref bundle -->

The members of the grand jury were impaneled in May 2014, prior to the shooting, and consisted of three blacks (one man and two women) and nine whites (six men and three women), which roughly corresponded to the "] makeup" of {{nowrap|St. Louis}} County.<ref name=STLToday.Jury/> The racial make up of {{nowrap|St. Louis}} County is 70% white and the {{nowrap|St. Louis}} suburb of Ferguson was about 66% black.<ref name=CSM.Deliberations/> <!-- Requests for more information about the jurors were denied by the judge.<ref name=STLToday.Judge/> --> On {{nowrap|August 20}}, the ] started hearing evidence in the shooting of Brown in order to decide whether a crime was committed and if there is probable cause to believe Wilson committed it.<ref name=LATimes.Grand/> The grand jury was instructed that they could not return an indictment unless they found probable cause that Wilson did not act in self defense and did not act lawfully in the use of deadly force by law enforcement agents.<ref name=NYT.Inst>{{cite web | url=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/us/ferguson-shooting-michael-brown-grand-jury.html | title=For Ferguson Grand Jury, Details and Responsibilities Are Abundant | publisher=New York Times | date=November 14, 2014 | accessdate=December 20, 2014 | author=Erick Eckholm and Julie Bosman}}</ref> Throughout the process the grand jury was not ] during the proceedings.<ref name=NPR.Examining/>

On the night of {{nowrap|November 24}}, Prosecutor McCulloch reported in a 20-minute press conference that the grand jury reached a decision in the case and elected not to indict Wilson.<ref name=CNN.Fires/> McCulloch released a large number of documents, including testimony from the proceedings, selected photographs, investigative reports, video and audio recordings, and interview transcripts considered as evidence, the following day.<ref name=STLToday.Release/><ref name=CNN.Documents/> McCulloch's office acknowledged that it kept some records secret at the request of the FBI, due to the ongoing civil rights investigation. Only 24 of the 64 witness testimonies were made public. More than half of the witness interviews that were released were conducted by FBI agents or federal prosecutors. Interviews conducted by county officials were not released. Seven video clips of Dorian Johnson's media interviews, along with a transcript of his testimony to the grand jury, were released. Video of the two-hour interview by FBI and county police were withheld.<ref name=DFP.Withheld/><ref name=ABC.Federal/>

I think it is stronger than our current version in the article and am working on dealing with the portrayal of the issues raised by sources. The matter of McCulloch, who did not actually take part in the actual jury case takes a lot of flak because it was his office and he guided the actions. This becomes a delicate issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Good attempt, but is lacking many aspects that were challenged by legal analysts. The summary misses several crucial points, and it seems to be quite apologetic, almost clearing the prosecution from all the criticism leveled at them for their handling of the case. Not a go from my perspective. - Cwobeel (talk) 05:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned, handling the criticism is the next section which I spent a few hours going over. There is absolutely no reason to go through all the criticism and counterpoints and other facts. I did rewrite the beginning to include the fact that McCulloch did not take part in any of the proceedings. It is appropriate to discern that the grand jury result and proceedings were different and to state why - it is not "apologetic". Sources like Reyes has no legal foundation or competency to rest mere opinion on - the unsupported allegations of conspiracy and manipulation are unsupported. We do not rewrite moon landing page to include "counterpoints" of how they were faked and interleave them with those which say they are true. The presence of controversy does not justify mere inclusion or a deference of fact to controversy. Remember WP:OTTO - sources do not always fact check can sometimes embellish or just plain lie about a non-existent dog and its life. Do not believe everything that is written. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:34, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

We have hashed this over several threats already, and the emerging consensus is that you can't dismiss sources because you believe the sources are "wrong". So, if you want your effort not to be wasted, then make sure that your summary represents fairly and without bias all significant viewpoints, per NPOV. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Per policy - this source is an opinion piece which should not be used. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox to spin your personal views on the subject. Tennessee v. Garner was a red herring and it still is. The August 15 "robbery conspiracy" is false. We had two sections and a RFC to confirm that the large wall of text about opinions should be summarized. And that is what I am doing. In the course of reviewing these so-called legal experts, many fail WP:LAWSOURCES and are just talking heads with base entire arguments on nonsense. They are not reliable so they are replaced or removed in accordance with policy. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:52, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Per policy, opinion pieces can be included if attributed. What you refer as "so called legal expert" are indeed legal experts,. You are not one, and therefore unqualified to asses their competence. And even if you were a legal expert, then your opinion could only be included if reported in an RS. Removing material that is well sourced and which contains opinions of experts is vandalism, pure and simple. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

the RFC may conclude with a need to summarize, but that does not mean that you can dismiss the sources and summarize just what you want included. No way that that will happen, so make a better effort to summarize. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

This source does not meet the requirements. Jeff Roorda's supporting comments are weak. And the Eric Holder supposedly not liking his name referenced in the announcement is not even relevant. Everything else is summarized properly - its just that the kind of source bickering is not necessary in the grand jury. And I decided to not play telephone tag with NYT opinion pieces and cut out the middleman. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

You have missed many of the opinions, which are relevant. If you are unwilling to properly group and summarize the criticism, maybe let others take a stab at it. But this version is no go. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll take it to mediation if need be - but complaining that something is done because the article is not at GA/FA/A-class is not a reason to include content which is unacceptable at GA/FA/A-Class. There was a consensus to reduce the number of opinions from 16 down to something more manageable. I made a draft for two sections and I am not going to argue with you over this anymore. Misplaced Pages is not a place to argue opinions of a tangential nature and I think the 6 pages of content on "reactions" is completely WP:Undue. I will collapse this off if you continue with WP:IDHT and more accusations of a personal bias. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:16, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Just wait a few days as many people are enjoying the holiday season, as mediation will require the agreement of all active editors. Happy holidays. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, it's January 2nd, 2015, so I'm weighing in. Others ought to feel free. We're under no obligation to reproduce a noticeably flawed press narrative. Sensationalism is what the press does. NPOV encyclopedic articles are what we do. If that changes and we're slaved to the same low standards of objectivity of the national press, I can't see a lot of editors staying with wikipedia. That applies with special emphasis to tangential articles such as the press account of a song sung at a retired LAPD cop's party... it wasn't sung in Missouri, it didn't affect the grand jury's deliberations, it was simply one more way the LA Times could sell papers and ads on their Web site. We can't assume the press' good faith in every article they run, because their imperatives are different from ours. Their ethics are "If it bleeds, it leads," not "Is it NPOV?" Their business model forbids them to publish NPOV articles, so if we uncritically give equal weight to everything the local and national press publish, we're going to be packing this article with undue weight given presumptions such as "The police hate black people and kill them when they can." The press's job is to sell ad space with messages like that. It doesn't have to be our job, and it shouldn't be our job. loupgarous (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree in principle on what you are saying, in particular on obvious sensationalistic coverage. On the other hand, we ought to be very careful as editors in passing judgement on what reliable sources say, their motivations, or their bias. Misplaced Pages is not in the business of "selling newspapers" but it is also not in the business of deciding for our readers what to present to them based on our own opinions. Per NPOV, we report the significant opinions as published in reliable sources. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

And I agree that care is needed that we don't become ideological censors of reliable sources. I have stated in prior posts here that we ought to, within practical limits, give all sides of a controversy voiced by notable sources - with the names of the people who comment, so that our readers can decide what weight to give them. But what about "Bad, Bad, Michael Brown"? Are we going to let something sung by the guests at a retired cop's party weigh in a significant manner on this article, just because the LA Times and some national press outlets decide it matters to their readers? In any other context, such as "Impact on Popular Culture," this song wouldn't make the cut for the very good reason that it isn't a published song. So why does it deserve to be anywhere else in the article? loupgarous (talk) 16:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Legal analysis by editors

Please note that editors should not engage in their own independent legal analysis when evaluating the conclusions drawn by reliable sources. "This source comes to an incorrect conclusion of law" is not an appropriate criticism for a Misplaced Pages editor to make when determining whether or not to use a source. Dyrnych (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

@Dyrnych: Please provide a single case in which this occurs in the article. Those should be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not referring to independent analysis by an editor in the article, as I thought I made clear. I'm referring to the vetting process used to determine which sources are suitable for inclusion in the article. Dyrnych (talk) 21:49, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

@Dyrnych: I do not see where this occurs either. Please provide an example. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:53, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Example provided. Dyrnych (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

many other examples in this talk page: , . ChrisGualtieri you are doing this all the time, questioning legal analysts opinions when you believe they got it wrong. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Really? As explained at Cwobeel's page. Transcripts from the August 10 interview contains the information. On August 15, Jackson who was questioned responded with, "I don't know. I don't know what came out in his interview. I know his initial contact was not related to the robbery. It was related to... blocking road." To which another reporter asked, " You're telling us... You're telling us that when the officer stopped Michael Brown for the first time... he was not aware Brown was a suspect in the robbery?" This time Jackson restated, "No. He was just coming off of a sick case, which is why the ambulance was there so quickly." The problem was the Q&A section was pulled out of context and it was spun despite Jackson having given an answer that he did not know. However, Huffington Post which contains the link to the video ignores that part of the context. Despite using the video source it makes a logical fallacy along with others to creat:

"The initial contact between Darren Wilson and Mike Brown was not related to the alleged theft of cigars," Jackson said, indicating Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect in the robbery.

This creation was false and it was referred to in different sources as the police changing their story. It is not a legal question or original research, its very obvious from the Q&A and the records that Wilson specifically stated that after the initial stop he identified Brown and Johnson as possible suspects. It is hard to question this when it was five days prior and if you watch the Q&A of what happened and why it was clarified in the following hours. Jackson did not have all the information and the media went a bit wild without checking for context. This is part of WP:BREAKING and it is why such sources have faults. It is only common sense that we not indulge in misstatements of facts. This is a poor accusation @Dyrnych: because it not a legal analysis at all. I ask you retract it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:16, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri:: These are your words, from the diff I provided: "And that is what I am doing. In the course of reviewing these so-called legal experts, many fail WP:LAWSOURCES and are just talking heads with base entire arguments on nonsense." If I've misconstrued what you intend in making this statement, I apologize. However, on several prior occasions you have done precisely what I'm concerned about here—often by invoking the Smerconish piece.

I'd also note that WP:LAWSOURCES explicitly limits itself to "sources that attempt mainly to state the law itself, and not about sources that attempt mainly to state the effect of the law." The latter are what we're dealing with here: legal analyses of particular events. Dyrnych (talk) 23:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

See also your argument against Toobin (CNN and The New Yorker's legal analyst) #More issues. Misrepresentation and misstatements of facts. By law McCulloch cannot be present during testimony and the matter was handled by two case assistants without McCulloch being present. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:39, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

For a more detailed overview of ChrisGualtieri questioning of legal sources, see Talk:Robert_P._McCulloch_(prosecutor)#Parloff, Talk:Robert_P._McCulloch_(prosecutor)#Sullivan_and_Toobin, and Talk:Robert_P._McCulloch_(prosecutor)#Cintron Which refer to the same sources used in this article, and in which he makes the same case: that the legal experts are wrong or that they provide false information, as the basis for advocating for their removal from the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I would think that after hearing the same comments from a number of editors, including an uninvolved and well respected editor: , you would accept that your way of thinking about this may not be the best way forward. - Cwobeel (talk)

Cwobeel is going off on another page - Sullivan isn't even used on this page because it is a BLP violation. Parloff is poor and Cintron is arguing something we got in spades. Why do we need 3 more sources making the same argument? I like Toobin's article and it offers new aspects. @Dyrnych: Thanks for clarifying, but that is not an example. Please read WP:IRS - specifically WP:CONTEXTMATTERS which contains the statement, "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article and is an appropriate source for that content." We are encouraged to evaluate sources to see if they are reliable for the statements they make - it is a key part of identifying reliable sources. If it is not an appropriate source then it is on the person to restore it to immediately explain why it is an appropriate source under WP:BURDEN. Quite a few of the sources make accusations which violate BLP and Sullivan was removed. Parloff was rightfully toned down to remove the problematic quote and Cintron is fine. Cwobeel, you have repeatedly inserted WP:BLP violations and that is never acceptable. You should not be editing this topic. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:01, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Evaluating sources to determine whether they are reliable for the claims that they make does not mean conducting your own analysis of their claims to see whether you personally believe that those claims are correct or well-founded. What it means is determining whether the sources themselves (rather than the claims that they make) are such that they would satisfy WP:IRS. So if you're unable to impeach the author, the work itself, or the publisher, you really don't have any grounds to determine that the source is not a reliable one. Dyrnych (talk) 16:36, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

You are confusing WP:IRS contains WP:CONTEXTMATTERS which specifically states, "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Misplaced Pages article and is an appropriate source for that content." - We are to judge and by evaluate the source for its claims. This applies to scientific articles like this to entire authors. Misstatements of fact are indefensible and that is when the source should be removed and replaced. In order to make your hypothetical case, bring something before me and debate that - I am not unreasonable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:34, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Statements by Toobin and other notable authorities on law should be part of the article, either summarized or quoted verbatim when space allows. It would be good if we had a spectrum of opinions on, say, Darren Wilson's conduct and McCullogh's management of the grand jury investigation into Wilson's conduct. Each opinion, ideally, ought to be tied to a wikipedia article on the person making the comment, so that readers who are inclined to "drill down" for information about who's talking and what else they've said can do so. That leverages the utility of wikipedia highly - that it IS a hypertext source and can give readers instant access to in-depth information on sources cited in a contentious article. As far as making judgments on the correctness of a given source, I wouldn't presume to do so. The source's notability should come first as a decision factor on whether to include it. Then the source's statements ought to be provided, either in a summary form avoiding WP:SYNTH or WP:OR or quoted verbatim if practical, closely followed by a link to the source itself, so that readers can make the decision on how much weight to give each source themselves. And to serve the reader as well as we can, we ought to include sources holding viewpoints opposed to the apparent consensus on a contentious point, their arguments either summarized or verbatim just as the "consensus" opinions are given... so the reader gets access to as much information in an NPOV manner as possible. loupgarous (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

@Vfrickey: - The article had a lot of Huffington Post and even Daily Kos sources for its problems. Some of these sources assert that McCulloch personally presented the evidence to the grand jury. Some sources like the New York Times would also make errors and later correct them about the source of a particular question. That particular error was picked up and republished in a bunch of sources including Huffington Post Truth-out Sky Valley Chronicle and even NBC News. At this point, it was an error that was picked up, widely reported and it was not fact-checked. I explained that it was a case likened to WP:OTTO because if any one of the sources (NBC News...cough) they would have seen that it was the grand juror not the prosecutor who made that statement. This is the reason why I asserted a bit of "fact checking" because the media has done another exceptionally poor job on this matter. One mistake in the NYT begets a dozen or more sources and even Network news and other programs repeating the same assertion. This has happened more than a few times and that is why I think special precaution in conflicting reports is warranted. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

While it's common sense to "fact-check" easily verifiable facts (such as the fact that McCulloch delegated presentation before the grand jury to two of his assistant prosecutors), we ought to have this discussion out so that the excuse of "well, it's out in 'reliable sources'" isn't used to defend the inclusion of verifiably erroneous statements (such as press accounts of McCulloch personally presenting the case against Wilson to the grand jury) in our article. I agree that we're not serving our readers well by including assertions which are provably false as part of our articles. I wish that consensus on points like this was easy to arrive at - it seems that there's pressure to perpetuate the press's narrative on the Michael Brown shooting in all matters, even when the press got the facts wrong. The presence or absence of the county prosecuting attorney in a grand jury hearing room isn't a point of legal opinion - it's a physical fact that can easily be affirmed or denied.

I've noticed similar issues with stories surrounding the Brown shooting - such as the case in which an African-American woman lost an eye when a St. Louis County detective fired a beanbag round at the car in which she was riding, shattering the window on her side of the car. Those facts were presented in a very sensationalistic manner by several online news outlets such as Yahoo! News, firedoglake.org, and the Huffington Post with IDENTICAL misspellings of the injured woman's last name. It took considerable effort on Google to find an account by a reporter with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch who actually visited the woman and her family, got their last name right, as well as the detail that the driver of the car she was in was trying to run the policeman down - provoking him to fire at the car in self-defense.

That none of the stories which carried the identical misspelling of the young woman's name cited another source for the (mis)information - not just the misspelling of the victim's name but the omission of crucial information regarding the incident - reveals to me that many sources regarded by some editors as reliable are certainly not reliable. In this case, not only were facts misreported or omitted, but plagiarism was involved in every case but one - it's incredibly unlikely that several reporters independently misspelled this woman's name in exactly the same way. I strongly suspect that every reporter whose name appeared over an article on this incident with that misspelling but one plagiarized the article (since none of them reported it as "according to (name of original reporter).") This points to an astonishingly poor level of journalistic ethics in online news sources who are representing themselves as accurate and reliable. That being the case, it falls to us editors to be vigilant for misrepresentation of facts on stories like this. loupgarous (talk) 22:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

@Vfrickey: I agree that verifiably false statements about matters not open to interpretation should not appear in the article. So if a source claims that a document contains a passage that it does not in fact contain, an editor could dismiss that source as not reliable for that claim. However, I disagree that an editor should apply his or her own analysis to events and then dismiss sources as containing false information based on that analysis. So if a source claims that a document provides support for a particular conclusion, an editor should NOT make his or her own interpretive analysis of the document to determine whether it does in fact support that conclusion. This is especially true when it comes to analyzing an opinion source and concluding that the author's opinion is false or wrong. That's what's leading me to this sort of discussion: not a desire to include demonstrably false information in the article solely because it's reported in a reliable source, but a desire to ensure that Misplaced Pages editors don't dismiss interpretations that they themselves disagree with on the grounds that they're "false." In particular, this article has suffered through an editor attempting to perform legal analysis to conclude that particular conclusions of law are incorrect. Dyrnych (talk) 01:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Two years ago, Jimbo Wales made this edit and "getting it right" is indeed the most important part of Misplaced Pages. No editor should be defending the inclusion of defamatory, or other false information - much less about those that make accusations against living persons. False is false and Dyrnych antagonizes and misleads repeatedly, aiding the defense of grossly incorrect facts advanced by poor sources. The defense of demonstrably false information in the lede and the body about "whether or not Wilson was aware of the robbery" is a perfect example. This section is particularly relevant because I get tired Cwobeel's defense of a conspiracy and just denounce the poor source for what it is and it ends the section and FPD sergeant is like a zombie arisen from the grave. This is what I get for letting the argument about poor sources slide by trying to educate Cwobeel on why its bullshit and wrong so I don't have to keep seeing him raise such bad arguments over and over again. And who else but Dyrnych comes in with the The Truth essay after I eviscerated Cwobeel's third incarnation (seriously) of that Wilson claim. Enough was enough - but apparently thoroughly demolishing that conspiracy was not favorable to Dyrnych. Resorting to attacking the editor and not their arguments, meh, I enjoyed the debate because I decided to give myself a handicap and it was fun. My patience for it is running out though. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

As other editors have noted, that essay is not policy. It should not be used to excise material based on an overbroad notion of defamation that sweeps in even negative opinion, nor should it be used as license for editors to determine what it false when the determination of falsity relies on editor interpretation. It's not as simple as "false is false."

I genuinely don't understand what point you're attempting to prove with the Cwobeel discussion above. As I said, I wasn't arguing for the inclusion of the material. In fact, my argument is adverse to what Cwobeel was doing, something that he realizes in his reply. Note how I'm applying my "editors should not perform their own analysis of primary sources to debunk secondary sources" maxim: without regard for the position that the analyzing editor is supporting.

Finally, the fact that you've taken the above as a personal attack is puzzling in the extreme. I'm equally confused by the idea that you're giving yourself "a handicap." Dyrnych (talk) 15:20, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

ping @ Dyrnych In my talk page, I seem to have conflated your stance with that of other editors, and I sincerely apologize if I mischaracterized your views (I'll repeat this apology on my talk page. But I stand by my assessment here of your statement

"We rely on reliable sources to do fact-checking; in fact, one of the hallmarks of a reliable source is that it has mechanisms for fact-checking. So let's let them fact-check and stop pretending that we're better at doing so than they are, which is just leading to the same idiotic squabbles over whose version is The Truth."

ChrisGualtieri says he's eliminating citations which don't comply with the standards of reliability he's citing WP:IRS and care to avoid mischaracterizing the acts of living persons WP:BLP. I'll let ChrisGualtieri defend those acts, because I think he understands the issues better than I do.

However, other editors are apt to take your statement blockquoted above as permission to include material with serious deficiencies in NPOV and sensationalism because "they're reliable sources." You were very definite in your language there, and I don't think there are any alternate interpretations possible to

"We rely on reliable sources to do fact-checking; in fact, one of the hallmarks of a reliable source is that it has mechanisms for fact-checking. So let's let them fact-check and stop pretending that we're better at doing so than they are".

To me, that means we have, once a news source is judged "reliable," to stop looking at how plausible its statements are in individual articles and give their editors and journalists room in this article to say things which may be misleading. We're not supposed to stop looking at whether a "reliable source" dropped the ball in one particular article, because that will lead to misstatements of fact being in the article.

Of course, we have to take care that we're not applying blanket judgments to news sources that do usually meet our standards of reliability, or being too quick to apply WP:SENSATION to every thing a news source prints. However, there are stories, such as this one on Michael Brown's shooting and the ensuing riots, that have a very tight press cycle and are bound not to have good fact-checking. The case I cited on Donnella Conner's blinding when a policeman fired a beanbag round at the car she was a pasenger in while the car was allegedly being driven toward him is, I hope, not very typical, but it involved two sources which other editors here have defended as "reliable" (Vox and Huffington Post). There's no "court of journalism" in which charges of plagiarism and sensationalism can be brought, because freedom of speech necessarily means "freedom to misspeak." But that means in making this article a reliable source of information on the shooting of Michael Brown and related events, we do have to fact-check as far as researching alternate accounts of a disputed event and using good editorial judgment to decide what belongs in this article. loupgarous (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I have been trying to stay out of this conversation, but I feel the need to reply to ChrisGualtieri's misrepresentations. This whole idea of a "conspiracy" which I am purportedly advocating, is all a made up story by ChrisGualtieri. All I have argued for and will continue to argue for, is for us to stay close to the sources we use, and avoid the characterization of opinions as "factually inaccurate", "false", or "misleading" as a means to suppress these opinions from the article. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions, and in articles that cover controversial aspects such as this one, we have to describe the opinions on the controversy as reported, and not attempt to qualify sources on their "truth". Our role as editors is to factually describe the viewpoints expressed in reliable sources, and not to suppress viewpoints because one of us believes they are "false". Best we can do is find a source that makes an opposing or contradictory claim, and report both viewpoints in the article, letting the reader to arrive to their own conclusions, rather than spoon feed them whatever we believe to be "the truth". - Cwobeel (talk) 05:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Original research

Please note that the RFCs have not closed yet, and there is no consensus for . There were no BLP violations whatsoever, as the material is impeccably sourced. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Here are some examples of OR in the last edit I reverted (my highlights):

• McCulloch was the subject of much complaints was focal point in the media before, during and after the grand jury reached its conclusion, acted as a supervisor to the process, but was not present
• The American grand jury process operates in secret to collect evidence and to test the memory of witnesses against that evidence; this is done to prevent witnesses from altering their testimony to match statements made by previous witnesses. These secret proceedings are not normally made public in cases of no indictment, but in this case it was to provide transparency to the process.
• Typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge. In this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present

This is not the way to summarize the controversy. We need to do way better than that. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

The material was sourced. It is not original research by definition. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:39, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Can someone review User:ChrisGualtieri/sandbox and decide whether or not they should replace the "Grand Jury" section and the "To grand jury process and result" section. They are not perfect, but I believe they are an improvement over what currently exists. Some data in the current article version will need to be moved and kept elsewhere. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:10, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not a bad effort, I must admit, but I have several concerns that could be addressed to receive my support:

• The first long sentence on the Grand Jury hearing contains unneeded editorializing and OR, as explained in the thread above. Some of the issues were already discussed before, including the "investigative jury" that is a made up classification, and it reads as an apologetic piece for McChulloch. Also, it is too long of a paragraph and could be split into two.
• The Public reactions section is pretty good, but the way it is constructed, with the criticism first and ending on the supporting statements is not NPOV as it seem to be written to undermine the former. Given that the preponderance of commentary was negative, this presents a false balance. It would be much better if the few "pro" statements are interspersed in the text rather than at the end as of to indicate a conclusion.
• Dan Abrahams and Toobin's are both quited for the same content. Leave Abrahams as is, and choose a differet summary from Toobin highlighting other commentary he made beyond the "personal invested"

- Cwobeel (talk) 15:58, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

• "McCulloch was the subject of much complaints was focal point in the media before, during and after the grand jury reached its conclusion"....? It should be its own sentence, but is very true and the section deals with that. It is not editorializing it is providing context. Big difference.
• Criticism -> Rebuttal -> Neutrality holds for McCulloch's section but not each and every. Like the analysis of the material, the third paragraph, which is not "pro" statements. Same with the fifth paragraph with does not end with a positive one - with the complaint which is not addressed at all with a "pro" side as claimed. The final does go with Criticism -> Rebuttal -> Neutrality as explained.
• Toobin's argument was the COI - this should not be duplicated in response to grand jury, this is clearly an aftermath section because it gives rise to the argument of the way in which it operates. This means that Toobin's section is not complete, it will be further detailed in another paragraph titled "Calls for Reform" or something similar.

I'm not saying it is perfect, I do not intend to rewrite the entire article from scratch and balance everything all at once, but this is two major steps and each part needs to be done in piecemeal. I can gladly change parts, but it seems the text is not of major dispute and can be handled by normal editing when it is in the article. The structure seem fine right? That's more important than the argument presentations to me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Investigative jury is not a "made up classification". Please refer to our article on grand juries if you are unfamiliar with the role of an investigatory grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:20, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

It is OR in the context of this article. The text above is 100% OR as previously discussed extensively. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:03, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not OR as this has been explained to you several times:

WaPo - Michael Brown investigative grand jury

StL P-D - The grand jury investigating the Aug. 9 shooting

CNN - The grand jury investigation into Michael Brown's killing

USA Today - The local grand jury that investigated the shooting

TIME - The Ferguson case and grand jury investigation

Considering the length of time you have been editing this article, you would think you'd be at least aware of the basic facts of this case. The prosecution did not ask for an indictment, the prosecution asked for an investigation. Maybe this is why some of your edits are so problematic. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Your interpretation is wrong. We have discussed this previously quite extensively. Check the archives. You have been pushing for that interpretation for weeks now. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:32, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

And this text is OR: Typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge. In this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present. 100% OR - Cwobeel (talk) 02:35, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

It is OR because it presumes that Grand Juries act on their own. The grand jury did not deviate from anything. The grand jury was acting on the instructions of the prosecutors. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

.... a situation where a grand jury is investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct is present. Obviously an investigation into a possible crime is never a sure thing — particularly in the area of police shootings, where the law gives officers some leeway for making split second decisions. The difference in the outcome with the Michael Brown investigative grand jury from a routine federal prosecution is hardly surprising.

It is not OR. The grand jury was investigative and the case was not pre-screened by the prosecution. Investigative grand jury is a term to define an investigation into probable cause for an indictment, which is different from the routine assertion of probable cause and a charge by the prosecution. Please read more on grand juries since you do not understand them. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:08, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Still 100% OR. There are no sources that make the arguments you are making. and there are many sources that describe the grand jury differently. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@Cwobeel: - Read WP:OR This is not OR because it comes right from the source. Hence it is not OR. You are the one reading numerous false accounts and sensationalist blogs that greatly misrepresent fact. They are removed by misstatements of fact because they are not reliable for even the use of transcripts. See below, above, all over the place. Ferguson Incident Report exists - NBC was wrong. The Sarge's conversation, six days later. No cover-up on August 15, Jackson's words cherrypicked out of context. Time after time, basic things are being advanced which is out of alignment with the facts. @Isaidnoway: explained this already - you need to figure out what a grand jury can and does do. Some grand jury investigations take years. They are not just rubber stamps on the way to the courthouse. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:22, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

More OR from the "legal expert" amongst us. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:29, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see those sources that say this grand jury was not investigating this case to determine probable cause. I would like to see those sources that say McCulloch specifically asked the grand jury for an indictment. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:03, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway and ChrisGualtieri: There is no mention or implication in any of those sources that there is a special type of grand jury called an investigative grand jury in Missouri. They simply refer to the investigation of the grand jury, which is what grand juries normally do in Missouri in every single grand jury case. As I mentioned before, there is no legal distinction, and such a distinction isn't useful in this context. Since none of the sources explicitly make reference that the grand jury was of any special type, this is probably OR anyways. --RAN1 (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Btw, this investigative grand jury stuff falls under WP:FRINGE, given the lack of mainstream support for this idea, so unless you have some really strong sources to back this up, this shouldn't even be mentioned. --RAN1 (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

RAN1 - Based on these reliable sources (certainly not fringe sourcing), please explain to me what is original research or a misinterpretaion of the sources in "describing" this as an investigative grand jury.

WaPo - Michael Brown investigative grand jury

StL P-D - The grand jury investigating the Aug. 9 shooting

CNN - The grand jury investigation into Michael Brown's killing

USA Today - The local grand jury that investigated the shooting

TIME - The Ferguson case and grand jury investigation

Additionally we have a definition from Oxford Dictionary for investigative - of or concerned with investigating something; and a defintion from Merriam-Webster - to make a systematic examination; especially: to conduct an official inquiry.

I'm not arguing or implying that there is a legal distinction. I'm just trying to get someone to explain how these reliable sources are considered Original Research or a Fringe View or Unreliable or that they are being Misinterpreted. Because from what I see so far is a failure from anyone to provide a reliable source saying that this was not an investigative grand jury, or in other words, a grand jury that was "concerned with investigating something". So, it looks like to me that you are the one who will have to provide some "really strong sources" to dispute that this grand jury was investigating this case, and it can't be described as such. Isaidnoway (talk) 22:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

All grand juries investigate. It's a function of the grand jury. I think that the only source that explicitly describes it as an "investigative grand jury" is The Volokh Conspiracy, and it's an opinion source that isn't reliable for statements of fact. I don't think it's original research to call it an "investigative grand jury," I just think it's misleading in light of the fact that there are things that are actually called "investigative grand juries" and it isn't one of those. Dyrnych (talk) 23:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway: Tl;dr what Dyrnych said. It implies that, given other US states that actually do make the distinction of investigative grand juries, this grand jury was different. The current hypothesis here is it's no different in what it was supposed to do than any other grand jury operating in Missouri. Mind you, I did read the sources posted at 22:29, 27 December (aka the same list you posted at 22:19, 28 December). The context provided in them is that the grand jury was investigating Wilson's case, but there is no mention that they were operating any differently than normal. None of them support the claim you're making. The idea that it was supposed to act differently because it was a different type is a fringe theory, given the lack of supporting sources and evidence to the contrary in Missouri statute. --RAN1 (talk) 23:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

You say that "there is no mention that they are operating any differently than normal", but yet this article, and those sources, goes to great lengths to say just that, and then criticizes McCulloch for it. Then you say, "the idea that it was supposed to act differently because it was a different type is a fringe theory", again, I refer you to this article where it says that they did act differently, because it was a different type - not a "typical grand jury". And then we have McCulloch telling the jurors in his opening statement that; Obviously, it is going to be different from a lot of the other cases that you've heard, which obviously it was because he didn't ask for an indictment, he asked them to investigate every single piece of evidence that was available - which a typical grand jury does not do. I have provided sources that say McCulloch did not ask for an indictment, as he would normally do of a "typical grand jury", but rather he asked them to investigate every single piece of evidence, which obviously means - they were "operating differently than normal". You have provided no sourcing whatsoever that disputes this grand jury was investigating this case or that it is somehow wrong or misleading to describe it as an investigative grand jury. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:34, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

None of the sources provided in the article mention a different type of grand jury. The closest we have is Casselman discussing the "investigative nature" of the grand jury, but makes no mention of the grand jury being of a different type. I based my reasoning on current Missouri statute pointing to the fact that the prosecutor or grand jury may subpoena for evidence and witnesses at will, there is no such thing as a different type of grand jury and all grand juries in MO are intended to be a mechanism of indictment. Ergo, this is a fringe theory that is not supported by sources. It's also worth mentioning that your logic is circular - it assumes that because the grand jury was subject to a different process, it must be of a different type, an assumption that you haven't proven to be true. --RAN1 (talk) 01:36, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm simply saying that the sources support describing this grand jury as an investigative grand jury, based on the fact that they did indeed investigate this case, which was obviously different than the previous cases they handled. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:41, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

No, it isn't supported by any of those sources. Investigative grand juries are a separate process encountered in states other than MO, and representing the grand jury in MO as an investigative grand jury is an editorial spin that should be avoided. --RAN1 (talk) 07:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Quite frankly, judging by your comments in this thread and previous threads, I have reached the conclusion that you must not be from the USA. Otherwise, you would be familiar with the history and the origin of the grand jury process and the powers and functions of the investigative grand jury that are deeply rooted in the history of this country and has been for over 200 years. I really don't know what else to say, it's been proven that this terminology is not made up, nor is it original research, nor is it a fringe view. Multiple sources support this terminology and it is synonymous with a "grand jury investigation" as well. And furthermore, Missouri does have this separate process, as outlined in the Missouri Constitution, but the Ferguson grand jury was not one of these, as it was convened in May as a regular grand jury and they just simply transitioned to an investigative grand jury in August when the Wilson case was given to them. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Missouri does have this separate process, as outlined in the Missouri Constitution, but the Ferguson grand jury was not one of these, as it was convened in May as a regular grand jury and they just simply transitioned to an investigative grand jury in August when the Wilson case was given to them. A great example of original research. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:34, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought so too. Apparently you still have not read or comprehend the policy on original research which explicitly and specifically states - (This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages.) And guess what, this talk page is exactly where this OR is located. But thanks anyway for the compliment. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I am a United States citizen, though your ad hominem would be just as relevant if I hadn't been. I'm also aware of the difference between federal and state law: grand juries are guaranteed by the federal constitution but implemented on the state level. Speaking of state level, I decided to look up the Missouri Constitution to see if what you said was relevant. The Missouri Constitution has a section on its grand juries, but said section says that grand juries have the ability to investigate and return indictments on crimes of all grades and character. This has nothing to do with the idea that grand juries in MO have a separate process for investigating, but instead suggests that both responsibilities to investigate and indict are held against it. If you have any real evidence you'd like to link to support your as-of-now completely-unsupported fringe theory, I don't think anybody would mind. --RAN1 (talk) 04:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Not every state gives its grand jury both functions; Indicting and Investigating, Missouri does give the grand jury both functions - specifically for investigating non-criminal activity.
• Grand juries may be of two types: an indicting grand jury...or an investigative grand jury.
• Contemporary grand juries are generally classified as being either “investigative” or “indicting.”
• Grand juries...function largely as the "investigative" and "indicting" arms of prosecutorial officials. (Encyclopedia of the American Constitution, Volume 2, ISBN 0028648803, 9780028648804)
• See also: Debates of the Missouri Constitutional Convention, April 18, 19, 1944, at pp. 1143-1157; Specific discussions pertaining to the investigative function of the grand jury.
• Missouri statute authorizing an investigative grand jury to be convened to examine lists of tangible personal property for correctness
• Missouri statute authorizing an investigative grand jury to be convened to examine public buildings and report on their conditions Isaidnoway (talk) 15:42, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The common thread in all of those is that they describe national grand jury usage without specifics for felony crimes (i.e. 1-3) or they describe grand juries as used for non-felony non-crimes (5-6). In either case those aren't relevant to standard felony process in Missouri, and Cassel's theory is still a fringe theory. --RAN1 (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I was asked to provide sourcing to substantiate the claim that Missouri does have a separate grand jury process for "investigative grand juries", I did. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I was asked to provide sourcing to substantiate the claim that Missouri does have a separate grand jury process for "investigative grand juries" related to this case. --RAN1 (talk) 18:20, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that this was one of those "separate" cases, it's just being used in this instance to describe the function that this grand jury performed - an investigation - hence the "grand jury that investigated this case" can and is described in reliable sources as an "investigative grand jury". Isaidnoway (talk) 18:26, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Some states have grand juries that don't have the power to indict but do have the power to investigate. Those might properly be termed "investigative grand juries." Some states also allow grand juries to investigate independent of prosecutors, and those special grand juries might also be termed "investigative grand juries." But a Missouri grand jury has the power to indict in addition to just investigating things and is always under the control of prosecutors, so calling it an "investigative grand jury" is something of a misnomer that brings even more confusion to an already confusing topic. Here's some good reading on grand juries. Dyrnych (talk) 20:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oi... this is a reoccurring issue? Hate to tell you all, but the difference between a regular grand jury and an investigative grand jury is that the investigative grand jury is the decision maker on the charge. It is not a separate type of grand jury, it is a separate procedure. This is pretty basic stuff. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:37, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Before anyone starts hollering that Chris didn't provide any sources for his comment, I will gladly oblige.

“It was a very atypical proceeding,” acknowledged Peter Joy, a Washington University law professor. “But when you have an investigative grand jury they typically do consume a lot more evidence.”

"The difference between a regular grand jury and an investigative grand jury is that the investigative grand jury is the decision maker on the charge." Isaidnoway (talk) 05:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

It's a different procedure that doesn't exist in MO. Grand juries already have this power as I noted is mentioned in MO statute. What you're describing is a phenomenon that cannot occur in this context. --RAN1 (talk) 07:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway: - Is Ran1 really arguing personal reasoning against a law professor, a prosecutor, and half a dozen other legal professionals? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I think two Law Professors from Missouri and the Jackson County, Missouri Prosecutor are more than qualified to give an opinion on how grand juries operate in Missouri. And this "different procedure" being bandied about in this thread, does exist in Missouri, as the power of grand juries to investigate is entrenched in the Missouri Constitution. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Red herring. No one is arguing that the grand jury did not have the power to investigate. What is being argued is the attempt to make a distinction that does not exist. This was not an "investigative grand jury" more than any other grand jury in MO. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:37, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, there are multiple sources (hundreds, if not thousands) that say there was a distinction, so I think I'll go with the sourcing rather than your mis-guided opinion. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:38, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

There are hundreds of sources that describe the grand jury investigation, but what we are discussing is the fallacious argument that this grand jury was different than any other grand jury in MO, and had some kind of special status as an "investigative grand jury". It was not. What was different was the approach taken by the prosecutor's office. - Cwobeel (talk) 02:00, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, you inserted a table into this article a while ago that specifically highlighted how "this grand jury was different than any other grand jury in MO", and now you say it is a fallacious argument. What made this grand jury distinct from other grand juries in MO is in fact - "the approach taken by the prosecutor's office", which resulted in them investigating every piece of evidence in this case. I presume you know that investigative is synonymous with investigation? Using the term investigative in front of "grand jury" does not imply some special status, it implies that the function of the grand jury in this case was to investigate it. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:23, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

It looks like this is converging to a similar conclusion that is currently at the end of the Talk section Misplaced Pages voice lack of attribution. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:16, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

FPD sergeant

The first interview with Wilson conducted needs to be included, as it provides key insights into the evolving testimony from Wilson.

Volume 5 of the grand jury transcripts (dated September 16) Accounts from the Ferguson sergeant who spoke to Wilson right after the shooting :

Question: "Has he ever told you, yeah, I didn't know anything about what happened up at the Ferguson Market?"

Sergeant: "Yes, he has told me that in subsequent conversations."

Question: "He told you he didn't know about there being a stealing at the Ferguson Market?"

Sergeant: "Correct."

Question: "At that point does he say that he investigates these two for stealing Cigarillos, does he mention anything to them about the theft."

Detective: "He doesn't say anything like that to me."

Detective: "states that subject reaches backwards with his left hand, and basically removes his left hand and arm from the vehicle and hands something to the other subject and says, 'here, take this,' is what Officer Wilson says that he hears the larger subject say. He did not, nor did I ask, describe what he thought was handed off, but he said that he handed something."

- Cwobeel (talk) 21:16, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Daily Kos is deliberately misleading because this was a conversation between Wilson and the Sarge six days after the incident. Check Page 52. August 10, Wilson's interview contained the information and the account which I referenced to you before. Page 14 top paragraph. Wilson could not have known about it being Ferguson Market because the name of the business was not broadcast in any of these. 19 seconds after the call is a follow up which is repeated. Then four minutes later is another, more detailed, description. But here's proof of knowledge, "At noon, Wilson reports that he's back in service from the sick-baby call. He then asks the officers searching for the thieves – units 25 and 22 – if they need him." He is aware. Now seriously... cherry picking text from conversations six days later and claiming it was the day of? Dailykos is unreliable and terrible for this stuff. Also - Wilson continued to state in the Grand Jury documents this same account, including the black t-shirt. (Page 202) Now, I am getting bored of these really warped and twisted coverup claims. I am sure that if something this big was an issue the mainstream media would have picked up on it - especially on ones which compare how his testimony changed. WP:EXCEPTIONAL seems to apply here. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:12, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Before you get in trouble again in confusing sources, I encourage you to dive into the sources and read through it. - August 10 was the second interview. That is the first instance in which Wilson said he made an ID. Cwobeel (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Where is the first interview? How do you know the content of the first interview? And are you sure of that? Also, I pointed to the wrong source to yell at you - The insertion was still false and you reinserted something false in the article after I told you it was false. I just pointed to time instead of MLM which was right next to it. Get your facts straight. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

What precisely is any of this serving? You guys have retrenched to analysis of primary sources to debunk/support secondary sources, forgetting perhaps that we're not journalists. We rely on reliable sources to do fact-checking; in fact, one of the hallmarks of a reliable source is that it has mechanisms for fact-checking. So let's let them fact-check and stop pretending that we're better at doing so than they are, which is just leading to the same idiotic squabbles over whose version is The Truth. Dyrnych (talk) 16:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. This is getting close to a forum discussion. I will dig for secondary sources. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:46, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Do not collapse this because it concerns an actual source that was used in the article. That source was wrong and so this stands as clear discussion of a removed and problem source in line with WP:IRS. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

In the opening sentence, Cwobeel wrote, "The first interview with Wilson conducted needs to be included,...", but Cwobeel doesn't discuss the first interview. This is evident from the quote that Cwobeel took from the Daily Kos article, specifically the part that says, "Yes, he has told me that in subsequent conversations." --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

True or not, Kos is absolutely not a reliable source for this, full stop. This shouldn't be collapsed, but including it without an actual reliable source should be a nonstarter here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:54, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree and should have stated this above. Dyrnych (talk) 20:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I will look for other sources on this subject. 18:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I have carefully read the transcript of the sergeant that arrived to the scene and questioned Wilson, and it seems quite clear what he is saying there regarding the robbery. I have found one source that describes the fact of that initial interview, and added it to the article. I am still looking for additional sources on this very key aspect. - Cwobeel (talk) 05:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Just so I have your idea correct, just when was this interview? Because I do not see what you claim you see. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:40, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@Bob K31416: Why deleting this? . There is testimony from this sergeant that could be included, and it was reported by CNN. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Re "Why deleting this?", as I said in my edit summary, "because no notes, no record, no substance of interview given (I'm the 2nd editor that has reverted this recent addition.)". Where are you heading with this? So far you only seem to be giving prominence to criticism of a sergeant in a section about Wilson's statements. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: To your question. This was the sergeant that arrived to the scene and was the first to interview Wilson. Even the prosecutor highlighted the importance of his testimony, being the first person to talk to Wilson. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:43, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Sergeant testimony to grand jury starts on page 12 . - Cwobeel (talk) 16:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@Dyrnych Quoting you from upthread:

We rely on reliable sources to do fact-checking; in fact, one of the hallmarks of a reliable source is that it has mechanisms for fact-checking. So let's let them fact-check and stop pretending that we're better at doing so than they are, which is just leading to the same idiotic squabbles over whose version is The Truth.

The issue is that several news outlets regarded by some editors of this article as reliable - Yahoo!News, firedoglake.org and the Huffington Post, to name three examples - have allowed plagiarized accounts of stories surrounding the Ferguson riots with significant misstatements of fact.

In these three outlets and at least five others, a wounding victim's name was misspelled IDENTICALLY in each article on the incident, and crucial details which would change the reader's understanding of the incident were omitted in the same way, with no attribution of these story details to another journalistic entity or news source. Among the few online accounts of this incident which didn't fall into this pattern, a story by the local newspaper's correspondent on that beat spelled the victim's name correctly and stated that she had been injured after the driver of the car she was riding in tried to run a St. Louis County Police detective down, provoking him to fire at the car with a beanbag round which inflicted the injury by shattering a window in the car.

As long as outlets like Yahoo!News, firedoglake.org and the Huffington Post allow plagiarism of news accounts and either misreport crucial details (such as victims' names) or suppress details that would make these stories less sensationalistic, then WP:SENSATION comes into play and we editors must exercise due diligence to make sure that we don't make wikipedia repeat false or misleading reports. That's why WP:SENSATION was drafted to begin with. loupgarous (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

That's an argument for not using those sources, not for an editor—one with, apparently, his own set of acceptable facts—to remove reliably sourced content because it fails his purported efforts at fact-checking. That's the point I'm trying to make. Dyrnych (talk) 01:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

First time I decided to act I called out the poor source. This time I decided to eviscerate the conspiracy argument so that I hopefully wouldn't need to see it again. There was nothing "reliably-sourced" about this claim and is not "my own set of acceptable facts", because I decided to be handicapped and just use the actual sources of the conspiracy to disprove them. You got to admit, it's pretty funny to use the embedded video to counter the claim and then use the actual document to disprove the rest of it. Hard to have "my own set of facts" when I used the source against itself. Unless you are saying Huffington Post and Daily Kos are reliable sources - I think this is over with. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:57, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we've drifted afield from the original topic. I'm replying to loupgarous's somewhat tangential comment above, not stating that the original material should have been included in the article. In fact, you'll note that I was speaking in generalities in my earliest reply in this thread, mainly because Cwobeel was attempting to debunk secondary sources with his analysis of the primary source (and/or with an unreliable source for fact) and you were attempting to do the same. And when—when at all—have I argued that DailyKos or HuffPo are reliable sources for fact? You seem pretty hung up on those, to the point that you bring them up at every opportunity. Dyrnych (talk) 14:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The extensive use of Huffington Post was repeatedly defended by Cwobeel and several others. They do not meet IRS and BLP. Ran1 is continuing to complain about the removal of poor sources over at my talk page. Ran1 has defended these poor sources and even below Cwobeel is still pounding that tired notion that Misplaced Pages editors are blind to facts. I do not see how anyone can justify inclusion on the mere basis some opinion exists. This has gone a bit off-topic since you were being general and not defending the material as your comments and reaction suggested. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Photo

Photo RFC

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Which (if any) photo should be used to represent Michael Brown. (multiple preferences are allowed, but note that due to copyright reasons WP:NFCC only one non-free image may be used in the article, so we can't use both.)

• None
• Headphones https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-18bMIxl6s70/U-5e2QMwh3I/AAAAAAABUVs/hTS1dFDXzfE/s1600/MichaelBrownHeadphones.jpg
• Graduation http://www.morningsidecenter.org/sites/default/files/pictures/michael-brown.jpg
• Other suggestions

I have notified BLP/N about this RFC

Photo Survey

• headphones & graduation & none (in order of preference) While obviously I reserve judgement for any newly proposed photos that may have issues, I would support both the headphone or graduation photos, but also am ok with no photo. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• In order of preference, Headphones and Graduation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dyrnych (talk • contribs)
• In order of preference: None, graduation. Nonfree image does not add anything significant to the article, but if we must have a photo anyway, it should be the most recent verifiable one. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Headphones. It is the most iconic and most widely used. There is even line art made of it . - Cwobeel (talk) 19:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not intended as platform for protest literature, so it doesn't really matter which picture anti-police protesters find most inspiring. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Headphones, weak support for graduation: Both photos are acceptable, though graduation is in a clearly formal context and in my opinion is less appropriate. --RAN1 (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
• Both changed to headphones (see below). Summoned here by bot. This is an easy call. We have two presumably usable photos, so why not use both? This is a sizable article. Using both photos shows both aspects of this person and would be a neutral way of proceeding. Coretheapple (talk) 15:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Below we're told only one of these images can be used due to restrictions on copyright. Given that, it seems obvious to me that the outdated photo in which Michael Brown looks like a young boy is not to be used. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:12, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Coretheapple Due to copyright reasons we can only select one (or none). due to that, does that change your !vote to support one over another, or do you think either is acceptable as the sole image? (or none of course) Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. With that kept in mind, I'd opt for the more informal photo of the subject with headphones, rather than the stilted studio graduation photograph. Coretheapple (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Photo Threaded discussion

I wonder why we are even !voting on this, since no reason for preferring the headphones pic have been raised, and there are clear objections. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I do not personally hold this objection, but I have seen others (off-wiki, in media critiques) object to the graduation photo on WP:NPOV arguments as a form of whitewashing or creating a narrative of "innocent schoolchild gunned down". "blackwashing" arguments are also common for other photos (the gesture ones in particular) A similar debate to the one we are holding here (although not focused on age/weight) can be seen in the "#IfTheyGunnedMeDown" meme (Speaking of, this is probably enough media coverage for either an article, or inclusion in the reactions, or merged in somehow with the "hands up" or unrest article

Gaijin42 (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This !vote is not really legitimate. Unreasoned editor opinions, compiled into a voting process, cannot overcome a BLP objection — nor is there any point in voting if no reasons can be articulated for preferring the disputed photo. If this !vote results in keeping the "headphones" pic, that won't be the end of it. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

BLP does not override consensus. You can call editor opinions unreasoned all you like, but that isn't invalidating any consensus arising from this RfC. --RAN1 (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

BLP does override consensus, BUT the assertion that there is a overriding BLP issue does not make it so. Otherwise anyone could stop any content whatsoever by just saying "BLP". We cannot override BLP, but we can say "there is a consensus that this does not constitute a BLP issue". If one disagrees with that consensus, and think there is a BLP concern that should sway things, go notify BLP/N about this RFC and we can get input from others who are involved in BLP issues. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it does not. It lets you remove content before discussion, however WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE explicitly states that consensus is needed to restore removed content. --RAN1 (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:CONLIMITED & WP:CONEXCEPT BLP is from the WMF, and is a policy with very wide consensus. We cannot locally override it, but we can locally determine the best way to follow it. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

An opinion that is given without any stated reasoning is unreasoned, no matter what else you say about it. And so far, zero reasons have been stated why we should use the "headphones" pic, despite its misrepresentation of Brown. There is only the statement of a few editors who say they cannot see any physical difference between the two photos. Leaving aside the question of how this could be possible, it's clear that if you don't see any physical difference between the photos, then there must be some other reason why you object to using the graduation photo instead.

So: what is your objection to using the graduation photo, or alternatively, can you articulate any reason whatsoever why we should use the "headphones" pic, despite the objections of multiple editors? And it's not like this was all made up on Misplaced Pages; people have been talking about the misleading photo since it was first circulated. If you cannot provide either answer, this discussion really should be over with the result that we drop the "headphones" photo.

Moreover, there is a clear BLP issue in misrepresenting Brown's physical appearance. Officer Wilson was accused of murder because, among other things, it was claimed Brown did not pose a threat to him, or did not pose a serious enough threat. Thus it is dangerously misleading for us to have an "encyclopedia entry" with a photo of Brown that substantially misrepresents his physical stature. If you want to argue against this position at BLP/N, you'll have your work cut out for you. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Factchecker atyourservice: I think most editors were aware of the definition of unreasoned before your unneeded explanation. I remind you that because we're using Brown's nonfree image, we crop to the face, so his stature would not be presented with the grad photo either. Also, you're saying that Misplaced Pages should take an advocacy-focused stance with how we present Brown with the lame and unrelated excuse that it might lead readers to think Brown wasn't threatening at the time of his death (not at the time the photos were taken, mind you). You should be well-aware that Misplaced Pages does not advocate, and certainly not for the reason you gave, which I suspect is the reason most editors are disagreeing with you, and why your accusation of unreasoned opinions comes across to me as empty. --RAN1 (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Fantastic; your previous comment had suggested you didn't get it, or that you thought your position was not unreasoned. The next lesson is that unreasoned opinions are meaningless in determining the outcome of content disputes in a BLP. Next, I remind you that even the cropped headphones image shows Brown as being much younger and smaller than the cropped graduation photo. Your next sentence is utterly wrong; I am saying Misplaced Pages should not take an advocacy-focused stance — i.e. I do not think we should insist on using a photo that clearly misrepresents the assailant of a person on trial for an alleged self-defense killing. You cannot reasonably say that it's "lame" to demand that we not misrepresent Brown as a younger, more harmless person than the one that attacked a cop in August 2014 and was shot by him. By insisting on this misleading photo, you're essentially demanding that WP favor Brown and bend the truth in service of his advocates. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No, my previous comment suggested I care very little for your explanation of the definition of unreasoned. I am aware that the headphones image shows Brown as younger, but the difference is subtle if not negligible. That isn't a clear misrepresentation as you've asserted. I was specifically targeting this phrase: Officer Wilson was accused of murder because, among other things, it was claimed Brown did not pose a threat to him, or did not pose a serious enough threat. Thus it is dangerously misleading for us to have an "encyclopedia entry" with a photo of Brown that substantially misrepresents his physical stature. I find that reasoning to be lame and advocacy-pushing. I may agree with using the grad photo in principle, but your tirade has convinced me that including that photo in practice is less workable than including the headphones photo, which is more representative of the general portrayal of Brown. --RAN1 (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) CONEXCEPT does not cover BLP; it covers WMF Board, office, and AC actions. As for CONLIMITED, consensus on the BLP policy page is that consensus must be found to restore content, so I say again that it's up to us to find consensus. --RAN1 (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The headphones photo is a BLP violation, as asserted and argued. Barring any argument to the contrary, your !vote here does not matter one bit. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, your argument is that the photo of Brown is a BLP violation against Wilson, correct? Gaijin42 (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes; it's not so severe as to rise to the level of defamation, but it is willfully misrepresentative of Officer Wilson to have our Shooting of Michael Brown article have only an old photo showing a younger, smaller Brown. This goes right to the heart of the matter — i.e. whether Wilson was justified in shooting Brown in purported self-defense. Frankly I am shocked that so many here profess not to see any issue. I don't see how you can fail to see the issue. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I can hardly believe that these argument are being made. BLP violation? I mean, really? - Cwobeel (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I see the hypothetical issue. (eg trayvon martin football photo). I do not see the actual issue, because I see the photos to be similar in age and weight. You are the only one asserting an obvious difference in age and weight, demanding others answer to a worldview that only you hold is becoming disruptive. You have had your say. If the RFC goes against you, you know how to appeal/escalate. But responding to everyone who disagrees with you as if they don't understand the basic policies is disruptive. Please stop. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Pardon me, I'm certainly not the only one, nor am I the person who brought it up in the first place. The photos simply do not exhibit the similarities you indicate. You need glasses. Nor is this an issue that was made up on WP. It's out there in the real world. You're going to great lengths to ignore the obvious. Also, your above-stated argument, that, essentially, the obvious misrepresentation here is not as bad as it was in the Trayvon Martin case, is stunning. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 21:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

"I see X" is not verifiable. If the headphones photo is, in fact, a recent photo, I have no issue using it in that context (outside of the non-free image issue that everyone seems to be ignoring). Can we verify the age of the headphones photo? No one has answered that for me yet. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't put words into my mouth. It is my opinion that there is no misrepresentation here. I have no information either way, but I have no reason to believe that the headphones photo could not have been taken AFTER the graduation photo. You are asserting obviousness of difference backed by nothing more than your own opinion. I am asserting non-obviousness of difference backed by nothing more than MY opinion. Why does yours win by default? This is a matter to be decided by consensus. Per my !vote, I dont object to the graduation photo I do object to you railroading the process to get your desired outcome. Thargor Orlandos argument is much more cogent. We know the date of the graduation photo. We don't know the date of the headphone photo. But that is not the same thing as arguing one is visibly misrepresenting. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:23, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to break for a few hours and return in the hopes that you will either have marshaled an argument why we should prefer the headphones photo, or given up on that photo. Almost five thousand words and I don't think I've heard one yet. I'm glad that you found Thargor's argument more compelling; I didn't feel the need to repeat things he has already said. What's more, if you find his argument compelling it's most perplexing that you continue to insist on the outdated "younger, smaller Michael Brown" that your eyes have so much trouble seeing. Moreover, the suggestion that demanding you provide a rationale instead of simply "voting" is somehow railroading the process is annoying. You don't have some kind of constitutional right to mislead WP readers just because a few other WP editors agree with you. This ain't Nam, Donny. There are rules. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 21:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I support the headphones over the graduation photo (although I don't oppose the graduation photo) because (1) the setting of the photo is more neutral (i.e., Michael Brown doing something neither laudatory nor damning) and (2) I see no directly appreciable difference in height, weight, or age between the two photos that would create a BLP violation. I am skeptical that a BLP violation would exist even if the photo were inaccurate; at worst, it would be an NPOV issue. The connection between an inaccurate photo (though, again, I don't see this photo as inaccurate) and whatever conclusion a reader might draw about Wilson is incredibly attenuated, especially when we explicitly note Brown's height and weight. Under the policy, I don't see how material not about a party can be a BLP violation against that party. In any event, it's irrelevant as to whether it's a BLP violation or not; if consensus is that the photo is inaccurate, wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to use the other photo? Dyrnych (talk) 22:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

non-arbitrary break

Perhaps there is room for a compromise, then. You and Gaijin both say you don't oppose the "graduation" photo, and RAN1 has offered "weak support". I don't think anyone is opposed to using it. Can we go ahead and just switch to the "graduation" photo, then? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 14:56, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

A quick look at the RfC tells me that's probably not gonna happen. --RAN1 (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, why is that? It's the only photo on offer that is not disputed, and it's the only photo that is not known to be outdated. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I personally have no objection to this, but other editors might. Dyrnych (talk) 01:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

At this point we have multiple inputs from outside editors, we cannot short circuit the RFC. Particularly not one that is leaning opposite (by my eye) the proposed "compromise". I very much doubt that Callanecc or some other administrator would consider that a proper consensus to get past the full protection. At this point we should just ride out the RFC. Either an obvious answer will develop, or someone can be WP:BOLD after protection dies and sees what happens. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, what is being short-circuited? You said you don't object to the graduation photo. Nor does Dyrnych. Nor does Ran. Meanwhile two editors have objected to the use of the "headphones" photo because it is known to be outdated. That is why I called it a "compromise" to not use the disputed photo while instead using a photo that is not disputed. I don't think it's fair of you to put "compromise" in scare quotes, nor do I see how the RFC is "leaning towards" the one image that is both disputed by other editors and known to be out of date. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

4 5 editors have explicitly stated headphones as their #1 or only choice. 2 prefer graduation (you (assuming you intend to !vote) and Thagor). Its not much of a "compromise" to say "lets do exactly what I want and call it done.", especially when your opinion is outnumbered 2 to 1. You dispute the headphone photo. Great. You are entitled to your opinion and !vote. Consensus is WP:NOTUNANIMOUS. Your opinion does not overrule everyone else's opinion. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

First, I don't think you can simply wave a wand and say "your objection does not exist & I prefer to ignore BLP concerns" and then declare your own preferred photo — which is objectionable for clear reasons — to be the only acceptable choice because more editors prefer it.

Second, I don't think WP !voting is a process of "counting up all the votes and then ignoring the reasons"; it's more a process of "counting up the reasons and ignoring the !votes".

There is a clear BLP objection to misrepresenting Michael Brown's age and physical appearance by using a photo that is known to be outdated. You can't simply ignore the BLP objection and say, essentially, "headphones photo is my favorite!" And even if there are 10,000,000 editors who feel similarly, that is not how we resolve disputes involving content with defamatory potential.

If you do object to the graduation photo, please say so now and explain your reasoning. And if you don't object to it, please stop insisting that it cannot be our feature photo. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not insisting that it cannot be our feature photo. I am insisting that you do not get to unilaterally outlaw the alternative. You have raised a potential BLP objection. The rest of us get to decide if that is in fact a reasonable interpretation of BLP or not. While I do not object to the graduation photo if that is what consensus decides, I DO reject your analysis that the other photo is a BLP violation. Others apparently do as well, since they saw your objection AND DISREGARDED IT. BLP/N has been notified of your concern. Nobody is beating down the doors to agree with you. If you think this issue is so egregious as to circumvent normal consensus building take it to ANI or AE and see where that gets you. (If its a BLP issue as severe as you claim, even discussing it in the talk page and having a link to it violates BLP!) 16:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

So you're content to deliberately mislead readers in a racially charged case, unless I initiate an admin action to stop you. And you see this as the proper way content disputes are to be resolved on WP. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Copyright question

• Question - (First of all, not having spent time reading this talk page before , I'll apologize in advance if this has already been addressed and I've missed it): Why is it necessary to choose one image over the other? This is a long article with a room for more images. It would invite another debate over where to feature each, of course. --— Rhododendrites \\ 16:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Rhododendrites The WP:NFCC copyright policies generally only allow one non-free image to be used. If the images were released to the public domain, we could use as many as we wanted, but that is very unlikely to happen. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

@Gaijin42: Aha! Ok thanks for explaining. --— Rhododendrites \\ 16:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

weight/age difference between photos

Factchecker_atyourserviceElsewhere you have said that you perceive an obvious 75-100 pound weight difference between the two photos. Below are comparison photos of 75 pound weight gain/loss. Do you maintain that there is an difference in our photos of a similar nature to these changes?

• http://www.shapefit.com/weight-loss-success-stories-60-79.html
• https://www.google.com/search?q=75+pounds+before+and+after&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=979&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=t9WuVP-VBoSgyQTHsYLgAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

If you are assuming weight gain based on age difference (rather than fat/muscle), the CDC shows an 8-10 YEAR range to gain that much weight (at all percentiles). Is it your position that there is an 8-10 year age difference in those photos? http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf Your most recent comment described the photo as "young boy". What age do you perceive? Gaijin42 (talk) 19:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC) For what its worth, the headphone pic was posted to Brown's FB on May 19, 2013. Assuming it was posted near to when it was taken, it was approximately 1 year older than the graduation photo. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Gaijin42, You're digressing into a terribly flawed analysis. (In the weight loss photos the people haven't changed their height between photos and are likely not as tall as Brown, and in the CDC chart Brown's percentile of 292 lbs at 18 y.o. isn't given.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so now we know the photo is outdated by at least 15 months. Can we go ahead and agree that it shouldn't be used as our only image of Brown, and that we ought to use a current photo? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:15, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages voice - lack of attribution

This material is rendered in Misplaced Pages's voice and without attribution. That is a violation of NPOV.

The grand jury process was atypical because of significant and numerous departures from other normal grand jury proceedings. The American grand jury process operates in secret to collect evidence and to test the memory of witnesses against that evidence; this is done to prevent witnesses from altering their testimony to match statements made by previous witnesses. These secret proceedings are not normally made public in cases of no indictment, but according to McCulloch, in this case it was to provide transparency to the process. Other differences were in the operation of the grand jury. Typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge. In this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present.

Ref # 139 is Cassel's piece published on the Volokh Conspiracy blog at the WaPo (Cassell, Paul (November 25, 2014). "The Michael Brown grand jury process was fair". The Washington Post. Retrieved December 17, 2014.)

In addition, the note added there based on this source omits significant information from the source.

- Cwobeel (talk) 19:18, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPOV and WP:ASSERT. Statements of fact should not be marked as if they are opinions. Unless you are disputing that the grand jury process was normal and public, it is correct. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

"Normal" is an opinion, and opinions need attribution. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:44, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The burden is with you to prove that there is a serious and reliable source to disagree with the uncontested "opinion" 2 law professors, 2 Missouri prosecutors, and a U.S. District Court judge and nearly 50 different sources, and Missouri State Law which editors like Ran1 have cited are in dispute about this very fact. It is a fact that grand juries operate in secret. It is a fact grand jury proceedings are not normally released to the public. The burden is on your Cwobeel. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

If there are other sources for these claims of fact, why don't you find a better one than the Cassel piece? We can agree that it's an opinion source and that its opinion is sympathetic to McCulloch, right? So why would we send a reader who's interested in seeing our source for statements about general grand jury procedure to a such a source (or, for that matter, an opinion source that is critical of McCulloch)? Dyrnych (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

A law professor who teaches in the specific field and a U.S. District Court judge? It is not an opinion that grand jury proceedings are normally secret - the burden is on you to prove otherwise. And the law - which Ran1 cited is pretty clear of this matter. Do not assert facts as opinions - that is a violation of WP:NPOV. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Once again you seem not to have read what I actually said. If you're going to respond to me, please do so and answer the questions I posed. Dyrnych (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

- I answered your question, @Dyrnych:, the source is directly related to the topic, covers the exact aspects and is by an authority who has written extensively on this case. Please provide this "better source" you refer to. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually in this instance the burden is on you to prove it is a reliable opinion. As I mentioned above, neither Missouri statute nor the Missouri constitution provide a legal basis for "investigate-only" grand juries; all MO grand juries have the ability to indict on all crimes, including misdemeanors. In that case, the source you have provided is actually propagating a fringe theory, based on the opinion of a judge who only has experience in federal, D.C. and Utah jurisdictions (see Paul G. Cassell). As such, you're going to need a much more reliable source to include this in the article. Per BLPREMOVE, I'm removing this tidbit as poorly-sourced. --RAN1 (talk) 06:14, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's the item that RAN1 removed.

"Cassel asserted that, typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge, but that in this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present.<ref name=WashPost.Fair />

I don't see the problem. This looks like a reasonable explanation of what happened and not a fringe theory, it has an in-text attribution as requested by the OP, its source is an article in the Washington Post, and it's not a BLP issue. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Update: Here's an excerpt from another source, supplied in a previous message of Cwobeel's, that also supports the comment about the "investigative" aspect of the grand jury.

"In this case, however, the prosecutor allowed the grand jury to examine the evidence 'in more of an investigative capacity,' McGraugh said."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 15:58, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the source I removed is referencing the opinion of Ben Caselman published in the Huffington Post, which is a case-by-case source. I think we should examine that source carefully, since I'm contesting the opinion's reliability. Caselman doesn't appear to be properly linked in WashPost, so at any rate I'm still removing this as poorly sourced. --RAN1 (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

RAN1, The item is not using Caselman's opinion. It is using Cassel's characterization of the grand jury that is in section 6 of the Washington Post article . --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

No one is arguing, afaik, that this grand jury was "specially" convened to hear this case, we know it wasn't. What we are saying is that when the prosecution did not ask for a specific indictment, this grand jury took on an "investigative" role, and the sources reflect that by describing the jury as an "investigative grand jury". I don't understand how a grand jury investigation into this case is a fringe theory. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The argument is that grand juries investigate crimes, not investigate incidents which involve legal jeopardy. That makes Cassell's opinion a fringe theory. --RAN1 (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

So I take it that any other legal opinion of this nature that supports Cassell's opinion is a fringe theory as well?

• Typically, prosecutors do recommend a specific charge and have already issued a criminal complaint based on it when they go to a grand jury. In Wilson’s case, prosecutors presented five potential charges and told jurors to investigate whether there was probable cause based on the evidence.
• How a grand jury normally proceeds is that the state presents a case for probable cause –that they will go forward after telling the (grand) jury, ‘We think this is the crime that was committed, here is the evidence that supports the charge we're bringing,’ and (they) vote yes or no," McGraugh said. In this case, however, the prosecutor allowed the grand jury to examine the evidence "in more of an investigative capacity," McGraugh said. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:59, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it means that the opinions should be checked for reliability. Btw, Cassell was also a news blog, so we should really be examining this carefully before reinserting it, as it's likely a BLP violation. --RAN1 (talk) 19:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not poorly sourced or unsourced or contentious, I see no BLP issue. Cassell's news blog is in the WaPo, if you want to try and get consensus to exclude the WaPo as a RS, feel free or take it to the RSN. And the reliability of those opinions are supported by multiple sources that say McCulloch did not ask for an indictment from the grand jury, he asked for an investigation from the grand jury. Therefore, it is accurate and reliably sourced to describe the function of the grand jury in this case an an investigative role and also to describe the jury itself as an investigative grand jury - which is an accurate description of what they were tasked to do by McCulloch. Isaidnoway (talk) 21:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it is poorly sourced. The Volokh Conspiracy is self-described as a group blog outside of WaPo's editorial control, which makes it a self-published source. Therefore, it must be considered separately from WaPo. Per BLP, the burden of evidence is on you to prove the Volokh Conspiracy is a reliable source. I brought it up on BLPN, feel free to discuss it there. --RAN1 (talk) 21:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The Volokh Conspiracy is republished without editorial by WaPo, but it has its own editorial control and written exclusively by legal experts. I've explained this to you three times in two different places before you cranked out this SPS claim again. Stop misrepresenting others and stop misrepresenting sources and do not break 5RR and then claim something which is demonstrably false. It is a waste of our time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, if I remember correctly, we found consensus to remove legal expert opinions in a previous RfC, something which you guys specifically voted to not include because it introduced POV pushing. This is pushing the POV that the grand jury was supposed to investigate in the absence of a possible felony. So how is this any different? --RAN1 (talk) 22:13, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I missed it, but what is the "contentious material about a living person" that is being challenged? Isaidnoway (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The contentious material is the idea that McCulloch brought in the grand jury to investigate without the premise of a felony, which may be considered libel. If you need me to clarify anything else, feel free to ask. --RAN1 (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

There's no BLP violation. I think the excerpt from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch explains well the situation re "investigate". Here it is again.

"In Wilson’s case, prosecutors presented five potential charges and told jurors to investigate whether there was probable cause based on the evidence."

--Bob K31416 (talk) 22:57, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I see the problem now, you have misinterpreted Cassell's opinion:

Typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge. In this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present.

What he is implying is that this grand jury didn't receive any "assurance" from McCulloch that probable cause existed, which is obviously backed up by the first sentence in which he is comparing the differences between what they typically do, and comments, prosecutors have usually already screened for probable cause. And Cassell's very next sentence that follows this makes it clear: Obviously an investigation into a possible crime is never a sure thing — particularly in the area of police shootings. Isaidnoway (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I think I understand what it's saying now. The only problem with this opinion now is the fact that it implies federal grand juries do not investigate, which they can and they can ask questions. Including it in general also seems suspect since it's pushing a POV. --RAN1 (talk) 23:24, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Facepalm. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Care to clarify? --RAN1 (talk) 00:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

The case of federal grand juries regarding "investigative" hasn't been mentioned in any of the three sources nor in the item you deleted from the article, and the three sources were specifically discussing the Wilson grand jury, so it's not clear why you brought that up. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I was asking ChrisGualtieri. --RAN1 (talk) 01:59, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

And I was making this point to you. Would you care to respond? --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

For reference, here again is the item that you deleted.

"Cassel asserted that, typically, prosecutors come before a grand jury having already screened for probable cause and present a recommended charge, but that in this case the grand jury process deviated from normal course by acting in an investigative role, with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present."

So what is the remaining problem you see here regarding federal grand juries? --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Cwobeel warring

Something happened.

Chronology restored

After some consulting it became apparent Cwobeel's intention was not to have an actual chronology in the article, but more the evolution of the story and how it played out. This is the essential function of the Ferguson unrest article, but it is also the story of the story. By flipping the breakdown on its head the details can be presented without resulting in confusion over the timeline or the subject matter. This results in a timeline which is almost entirely duplicated by the 2014 Ferguson unrest page, but that is for another time. Toobin's comments are now reflective while not inflective. A reminder to all, that Either-Or Reasoning, does not exist on complex issues. The snow job-type argument that there was "overwhelming criticism" was instead "discussion" in the media on the topic. The vast majority of reliable sources said the result was expected or justified given the evidence, but the process did not inspire confidence despite being typical and very routine in similar situations. Now hopefully, the structure better reflects the information and the public reaction by time. I did not intend to go full Tomlinson on this and I hope everyone else will agree that this article can be better than that. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not 100% sure this is a good structure, but most concerning to me is that the response to the grand jury process and decision is now presented within a false balance. I am still on break and will not be able to address this yet, but will do when I get back to actively edit. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:33, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Please provide some evidence because the consensus is that it would never have survived at trial and over 20 reliable sources from the most senior and knowledgeable experts have come to that conclusion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I would hope that you would have those 20 reliable sources on retainer, because I don't see that happening here . I don't see how consensus exists under a well-defined and well-known controversy. --RAN1 (talk) 19:13, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Considering your response and staunch opposition to Cassell's commentary, you won't recognize it as valid no matter what is presented. You labeled a superior source, who has written extensively on the subject, as WP:FRINGE and made claims of WP:BLP violations while repeatedly attacking Cassell's validity. There is no reason to discuss this any further given the circumstances. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Full protection

I have fully protected the article for two weeks due to the continued edit warring among a number of editors. Before anything is added to the article it will need to first be proposed here, if uncontroversial (in the opinion of reviewing admin) may be added to the article straight away if not consensus will be needed first. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:14, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Parloff Edit request

Can the mangled mess of Parloff's paraphrased words be fixed or removed because this is completely backwards and opposite of what the source actually says.

Roger Parloff said that prosecutors do not usually exclude non-exculpatory evidence and that prosecutors do not typically indict if they believe the accused is guilty, disagreeing with the notion that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment.

The prosecutors excluded evidence that could lead to an indictment? What?! That's not in the source. Prosecutors do not indict if they believe the defendant is guilty? Really? And lastly, Parloff disagrees that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment? I don't think you can possibly get a more backwards wording of the source even if you tried. Remove it or fix if you want, but don't let that remain. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This does seem to be a very poor paraphrase. the double negative in particular is bad and the indictment line is exactly backwards from the source (typo? non english speaking editor?). the relevant section from the sources reads  :

McCullough, it is said, should have just presented the damning evidence, and withheld the evidence in the officer’s favor. That way he could have won an indictment, and then a regular jury could have sorted it out at trial.

I disagree. It’s true that prosecutors don’t usually present all the evidence to a grand jury that might possibly weigh in the accused’s favor. But the omissions in the ordinary case are not factors that the prosecutor himself considers truly “exculpatory”—i.e., factors that he himself thinks warrant acquittal. They are typically just pieces of evidence that the prosecutor recognizes that a skilled defense attorney might be able to make some hay out of while trying to scare up traces of “reasonable doubt.” That’s different.Prosecutors don’t typically indict unless they believe that the accused is really guilty

Fixing the current version comes up with

Roger Parloff said that prosecutors do not usually exclude non- trulyexculpatory evidence and that prosecutors do not typically indict if they believe the accused is notguilty, disagreeing with the notion that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment

Gaijin42 (talk) 02:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

RAN1 did it. Also RAN1's self-recognizes as En-5... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree with removing the double negative. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. --RAN1 (talk) 03:24, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

From the above discussion, the requested uncontroversial change is in the section Reactions to grand jury decision, paragraph 4, sentence 2, and is the change from

Roger Parloff said that prosecutors do not usually exclude non-exculpatory evidence and that prosecutors do not typically indict if they believe the accused is guilty, disagreeing with the notion that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment.

to

Roger Parloff said that prosecutors do not usually exclude truly exculpatory evidence and that prosecutors do not typically indict if they believe the accused is not guilty, disagreeing with the notion that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment.

(I added a minor change of correcting the double period.) --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait - @Callanecc: @Bob K31416: @Gaijin42: I did not explain it well and I self-corrected without recognizing a key fact. Yes, the source says one thing, but the context and intention are mixed up for a number of reasons. Parloff uses exculpatory evidence, but exculpatory evidence is defined as evidence not admissible in trial. Exonerating evidence would make sense, but why would a prosecutor include evidence in a grand jury that would not be admissible at trial? Even if you were to use exculpatory, the suggested wording still doesn't even make sense. The argument does not match the meanings of the words being used - and Parloff actually referenced this in the article with this statement -

It’s true that prosecutors don’t usually present all the evidence to a grand jury that might possibly weigh in the accused’s favor. But the omissions in the ordinary case are not factors that the prosecutor himself considers truly “exculpatory”—i.e., factors that he himself thinks warrant acquittal.

That is not the meaning of exculpatory - that is exonerating. Parloff is not using the correct word for the argument. I didn't catch it myself because I self-corrected for Parloff's error... other issues with the source were my focus and I skipped right over it. Sounds funny, but Parloff has gotten more than just the terminology wrong... but let's start with this issue — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisGualtieri (talk • contribs) 04:24, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri, If you are relying on that popup on google for "not admissible", I have no idea where that came from. Exculpatory is a synonym for exonerating. See our entire article on the word Exculpatory_evidence or various dictionaries http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exculpatory Gaijin42 (talk) 04:28, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

"Exculpatory" is the common descriptor for evidence tending to show innocence. Prosecutors have professional and legal obligations not to withhold it. I don't think evidence is usually described as "exonerating". Technically, evidence doesn't exonerate you, anyway — it exculpates you. Exoneration is the judgment and consequence of legal status that results from decisive exculpation. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 04:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Never mind - it's a moot issue anyways. Exculpatory has two different connotations, lay and legal, and Parloff uses the legal one. Seeking to put it in simpler terms changes the meaning and makes more of a hassle. The use is fine, but the actual exculpatory statement versus the facts of the matter were being paralleled to were more fitting for the lay usage in my eyes. Parloff uses an example with witness statements saying Brown was shot in the back and then withholding the fact that it never happened. McCulloch confirmed this as well, saying if he so desired, that Dorian Johnson's testimony could have been used (by itself) to get a murder indictment. As long as the state has not made prima facie case against the accused it is allowable - which was my hinging point. Exculpatory versus the "layman's" exoneration. It was just a bad idea from me to try and be less technical. It was a terrible idea. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:30, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Couple of notes about exculpatory evidence. Prosecutors absolutely have a Brady duty to provide exculpatory evidence to the defense, but that's not really relevant when we're talking about a grand jury; prosecutors present basically whatever evidence they want to grand juries, hence the usual ease of getting an indictment. I don't know specifically about Missouri grand juries, but federal grand juries can consider even evidence that would be inadmissible at trial (hearsay without an exception, etc.). Evidence can exonerate you if it proves actual innocence, but that's a really high standard. All that said, this is a great example of why editors shouldn't substitute their own analysis of legal issues for those of reliable sources. Dyrnych (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Mmm, crim's not my forte but I would be very surprised indeed if somebody told me that it was typical for a prosecutor to withhold clear Brady evidence from a grand jury simply to secure an indictment that he knew would lead nowhere once the exculpatory evidence became subject to mandatory disclosure. And again, I have never heard a piece of evidence described as "exonerating evidence". Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 13:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

It's less surprising when you consider how broad a category Brady evidence is. Brady evidence isn't necessarily evidence that clearly shows that a defendant is not guilty. That's pretty much Partloff's argument: that the evidence that prosecutors withhold is not evidence that prosecutors believe exonerates the defendant, but evidence that a good lawyer could use to show reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime. So something that a defense attorney could use to impeach a prosecution witness (i.e., a prior inconsistent statement) is Brady evidence, but neither the jury nor the prosecutor have to believe that the evidence actually shows that the defendant is not guilty. And you're correct that there's no legal term of art called "exonerating evidence." Dyrnych (talk) 20:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

And Parloff referred to that which would warrant acquittal - that's the standard, but legally versus layman is the distinction. Its semantics, but the change would be confusing and unsupported. Considering its original usage with negativity implied has been reinserted by Cwobeel as a perversion... I'm just glad we agree. Cwobeel's insertion is now "Attorney and Fortune editor Roger Parloff wrote that while when a prosecutor believes that the accused is innocent, the prosecutor does not seek an indictment, but that was not a politically palatable option for McCullough; taking that course of action would have been "taking all the heat himself, while leaving him no opportunity to explain the basis of his decision to the world", and that in these circumstances, his approach was very reasonable.".... And I keep saying give it time... I just wish editors would pick that mess apart on Robert P. McCulloch (prosecutor) since its BLP attack vestiges remain. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:28, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that there's a better summary than what we currently have. Something on the order of:

Fortune editor and attorney Roger Parloff defended McCulloch's decision to present all available evidence to the grand jury–even evidence supporting Darren Wilson–arguing that while prosecutors usually withhold evidence that might weigh in favor of an accused, this evidence is not evidence that the prosecutor considers truly exculpatory because prosecutors do not seek indictments of persons that they believe to be innocent.

Thoughts, anyone? It's longer than what we've got but also clearer (I think). Dyrnych (talk) 06:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that he has been a full-time journalist (and not an attorney) since 1988. Why not just go with the actual title instead? Though whatever works best, I tend to be bad at 1a stuff anyways. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't really care what we call him. Dyrnych (talk) 07:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

"Fortune's Legal Affairs editor Roger Parloff" work or is that too wordy? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Why don't we focus on the substantive part? Dyrnych (talk) 07:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Dyrnych the problem I see in your version is that "this evidence" is ambiguous. We need to make it clear we are not talking about the specific evidence in the Brown case, but the general concept of evidence that helps the defense but does not completely exclupate/exonorate. One possibility would be to replace "this evidence" with "the evidence which is generally omitted" or something. Its wordier, but clearer still. Gaijin42 (talk) 13:55, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I note that Dyrnych said his version was better but didn't say why. For reference, here's the excerpt from the Parloff article.

Prosecuting attorney Robert McCullough of St. Louis County, Missouri, has been roundly criticized for not obtaining an indictment of officer Wilson. Since a good prosecutor can “indict a ham sandwich,” as the saying goes, McCullough, it is said, should have just presented the damning evidence, and withheld the evidence in the officer’s favor. That way he could have won an indictment, and then a regular jury could have sorted it out at trial.

I disagree. It’s true that prosecutors don’t usually present all the evidence to a grand jury that might possibly weigh in the accused’s favor. But the omissions in the ordinary case are not factors that the prosecutor himself considers truly “exculpatory”—i.e., factors that he himself thinks warrant acquittal. They are typically just pieces of evidence that the prosecutor recognizes that a skilled defense attorney might be able to make some hay out of while trying to scare up traces of “reasonable doubt.” That’s different.

Prosecutors don’t typically indict unless they believe that the accused is really guilty. Nor should they. The indelible stigma of indictment—and the accompanying ordeal of the public criminal trial—wreck someone’s life in themselves. Prosecutors don’t make people do that, while secretly thinking to themselves: “Gee, I hope the jury gets this one right, because, to me, this guy looked innocent.”

Here's the version that is currently in our article. (See section Reactions to grand jury decision, paragraph 4, sentence 2.)

:Roger Parloff said that prosecutors do not usually exclude truly exculpatory evidence and that prosecutors do not typically indict if they believe the accused is not guilty, disagreeing with the notion that McCulloch should have presented evidence with the purpose of obtaining an indictment.

And here's Dyrnych's version.

Fortune editor and attorney Roger Parloff defended McCulloch's decision to present all available evidence to the grand jury–even evidence supporting Darren Wilson–arguing that while prosecutors usually withhold evidence that might weigh in favor of an accused, this evidence is not evidence that the prosecutor considers truly exculpatory because prosecutors do not seek indictments of persons that they believe to be innocent.

I think Dyrnych has to give a good reason for why his version is better, otherwise we're wasting our time on this and just trying to make a change for change sake. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Dyrnych's version is better of what we have now, so I also agree to this edit. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:21, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Bob K31416 is right - it is change for the sake of change. A bloated run-on sentence, which connects ideas in a jumbled way, is not an improvement. Dyrnch's version just makes the presentation of the information worse. Because it does not resolve the underlying issue and is not a clear improvement, the change should not be made. Furthermore, there is a case that making the change could be detrimental. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it's a lot of information to pack into one sentence, but it's hardly a "bloated run-on sentence." I made it one sentence because it seems like that's the standard that we're operating under for summarizing each argument. It improves our presentation of Parloff's argument precisely because it fleshes it out. The current version just throws some arguments out there and makes no effort to connect them. This version connects all of the parts of Parloff's argument to each other in a logical way, presenting the conclusions of his arguments as conclusions and the reasons behind those conclusions as reasons behind those conclusions. That said, I agree with Gaijin42 and would change my proposed version to:

Fortune editor and attorney Roger Parloff defended McCulloch's decision to present all available evidence to the grand jury–even evidence supporting Darren Wilson–arguing that while prosecutors usually withhold evidence that might weigh in favor of an accused, the evidence withheld in this way is not evidence that the prosecutor considers truly exculpatory because prosecutors do not seek indictments of persons that they believe to be innocent.

If consensus is that the current version is the better version, hey, let's go ahead and keep it, terrible prose and all. Dyrnych (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Consensus can change, and the current version as well as the above proposed version, are both terrible prose indeed, and leaves you breathless when reading it. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I definitely don't think that it's ideal to compress it into one sentence; as I said, I did so because I thought that was what we were striving for in our summaries. The two-sentence version would read:

Fortune editor and attorney Roger Parloff defended McCulloch's decision to present all available evidence to the grand jury, even evidence supporting Darren Wilson. Partloff argued that while prosecutors usually withhold evidence that might weigh in favor of an accused, the evidence withheld in this way is not evidence that the prosecutor considers truly exculpatory because prosecutors do not seek indictments of persons that they believe to be innocent.

Dyrnych (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Simple edit, and way better results. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

No - The problem still exists and now its made even worse... the wording gets even more stumbled and aside from the typo and run-on - it now is redundant. Is there any dispute about the last clause anyways - why is it even necessary? Parloff found McCulloch's decision to bring it to the grand jury reasonable under the circumstances? Should that not this be the first detail to be discussed? Parloff makes two clear statements, but this is muddled here. Let's just give the conclusions and move on. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Dyrnych, Your reason for change is just talking in generalities. Here's what you wrote.

"It improves our presentation of Parloff's argument precisely because it fleshes it out. The current version just throws some arguments out there and makes no effort to connect them. This version connects all of the parts of Parloff's argument to each other in a logical way, presenting the conclusions of his arguments as conclusions and the reasons behind those conclusions as reasons behind those conclusions."

Would you care to explain this using the specifics of each version? --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Bob, based on your previous comments I have a feeling that you won't accept any version that I propose in any event because you're suspicious of my motives. Is this an accurate statement? I'm not so invested in making a more comprehensible version of this claim that I'm going to waste my time arguing about what I thought would be a pretty noncontroversial change. If other editors don't agree that my version is a clearer summation of the argument, so be it. Dyrnych (talk) 22:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of that previous comment, I'm giving you a chance to make your case and I showed you how you could do that. Your response only suggests that you have no good reason for making the change. In any case, here's an approach you or anyone else might consider. Instead of making a complete rewrite, you might try suggesting tweaks for the current version. BTW, the current version is due to RAN1 with a couple of corrections by Gaijin42. Note that I included RAN1 in that previous comment of mine that you linked to, yet I am defending what is basically RAN1's edit against your proposed change. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Bob, there's no requirement that or reason why I should present an exegesis of my rewrite versus the previous version. I believe it's clearer and have said as much; that is a sufficient reason in itself for the change. Again, if it's going to be a controversial change or if other editors do not agree that it's clearer, I genuinely don't care to waste further time or space on this talk page advocating for it. Dyrnych (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

With the article in protected status - are we really going to continue to debate the finer points of minor improvements to the wording of a single sentence? The obvious issue has been resolved, but please by all means examine the really flawed section on "Darren Wilson's interview and testimony" or "Dorian Johnson" in similar detail because both have some pretty big issues with form and organization. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: So your response is basically WP:IDONTLIKEIT. That's a pretty weak argument to dismiss a change on. Dyrnych's version far better explains what I wanted to say in the article, clearly and without legalese. Unless you're going to present valid reasons for ditching this change, we should accept it and move on (unless you think there is a valid reason, in which case I recommend that this be pushed to RFC). --RAN1 (talk) 05:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I already did and Bob did. You even referred to removing these Op-eds at BLPN and I think we should remove it entirely because it adds nothing and is a weak source. Replace it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Cassell source

Ran1 took the Cassell source over to BLPN (see here) for violations of Fringe and BLP, but Ran1 is arguing something which is not opinion and is not about a person. I do not know why Cwobeel reinserted the issue which was removed and replace a very flawed version in this edit. Ran1 even modified the usage to create the issue which now remains in the article. Some how the better secondary source was removed and now there is some issue that Volokh is a self-published source and not a WP:NEWSBLOG being hotly contested by editors who are responding to something which is not an issue. Cassell was not being used for a BLP issue and now flaws are in the article which editors at BLPN think exist - can we remove Cassell's source and replace it with the other source or have the tangential discussion started by Ran1 resolved? People complained when I wanted to and then did remove Huffington Post from being cited - but this misguided and messed up issue originating with Ran1's confusion is so trivial that it is sound and fury over Ran1's error. Can't we just fix it? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Instead of focusing on blaming other editors, let's use a better source for the claim. We've established that better (read: non-opinion) sources exist for describing the grand jury, so let's pick one of those and use it. Dyrnych (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove invalid source

The source "Ferguson message: Justice system unfair to minorities" is an opinion piece posted by CNN and should not be used per BLP. The source is flawed and makes misstatements of fact. The source concludes with: "The Ferguson decision reflects poorly on prosecutor McCulloch. His flawed grand jury proceedings ensured that justice was not served for Michael Brown." Its use in the article is:

"Media reports would characterize McCulloch as not being impartial because his father was a police officer killed in an incident with an black suspect and members of his family served with the St. Louis Police Department."

It does not say anything about "media reports" and is an op-ed which is being allowed to masquerade as a reliable source for the commentary as a whole. I ask that it be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Opinion sources can be used for their opinions, regardless whether you believe their opinions or the facts upon which their opinions rest. I strongly oppose efforts to remove opinions because they're "wrong." As numerous editors have stated numerous times, just because a source contains negative opinion about a living person doesn't mean that it's a BLP violation. I suggest that we move this opinion to whatever criticism section that we have. Dyrnych (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is a non-opinion source for the claim in the article: "Prosecutor in Michael Brown Case Has Deep Family Ties to Police" (with the relevant quote being "Those close family ties to the police — and a bellwether decision 14 years ago not to prosecute two cops who shot and killed two suspects in a drug bust — have raised doubts about his objectivity in deciding whether Ferguson, Missouri, officer Darren Wilson should be prosecuted for the Aug. 9 killing of Brown, 18."). This is highly relevant and should be included in the article, although the characterization of it as "media reports" isn't all that great. Dyrnych (talk) 18:36, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

That claim is factually inaccurate and omitting details. "The state grand jury ... voted in August 2000 not to charge the officers. After that investigation failed to satisfy some community leaders, the Justice Department stepped in. The federal investigation was a joint effort by the U.S. attorney's office here and Justice's Civil Rights Division in Washington." The officers were also cleared by this subsequent review. McCulloch also released the grand jury documents in this case. Let's not insert pieces that warp reality to try and justify the insertion of sensationalist BLPGOSSIP. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

So you're contesting the claim about the decision not to charge (which is not in our article) in order to remove information about McCulloch's family history with the St. Louis Police Department and the death of McCulloch's father, which to my knowledge (1) is undisputed and (2) has been reported to raise questions about McCulloch's objectivity? Dyrnych (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

"Factually accurate" is not a Misplaced Pages threshold for inclusion. Opinions are not facts. It is verifiable? Was it published in a RS? Is it a significant opinion? That is the threshold. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Dyrnych, by removing the invalid sources we just leave the NYT which covered it all. Not sure why you are arguing a content issue when I was concerned with removing the low-grade source. Also to other editors, I am ignoring Cwobeel because WP:IRS and WP:BLP exists. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove Silver source

The source "Silver: A hopeless conflict of interests" has been removed out by the Richmond source. It was an opinion piece which was used to support an accusation that the grand jury case was a conflict of interest.

Jay Sterling Silver said that the grand jury case indicated a conflict of interest between local prosecutors and police, as the former needs to maintain a good relationship with law enforcement.

The fact it is an opinion piece and it has been removed means that it should probably not be used in the article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

The original source for this claim is in Silver's article in The Washington Post, "Fixing the conflict of interest at the core of police brutality cases". This should have been the source to which we cited in any event, and the opinion should remain with the correct citation. Dyrnych (talk) 18:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it was published that source, I can confirm it. This is still invalid as opinion piece because makes accusations against McCulloch and is a WP:BLP concern for that reason. That is why it should be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Neither I nor BLP care if it makes accusations against McCulloch. Negative opinion, cited as opinion, is not a BLP concern solely because it's negative. Dyrnych (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Not a BLP concern, if the opinion is properly sourced (which it is), and it is attributed (which it is). - Cwobeel (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• Anyone else up for defending an op-ed which begins with the assertion of "known facts" that Wilson committed murder and the grand jury was programmed not to indict him? Does anyone really want to argue that "the system" allows police to murder civilians and that this is the conflict of interest? Anyone really comfortable allowing this conclusion, based on these "facts", be included in this article? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Are we citing the op-ed for the purported fact that Wilson committed murder? Are we citing it for any facts at all? Dyrnych (talk) 07:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I question why we are citing an op-ed piece in the first place. Using personal opinion to advance contentious claims about a living person is unacceptable per WP:NOTRS and WP:GRAPEVINE. Furthermore, WP:PUBLICFIGURE says multiple reliable sources have to document the claim for it to be used. If there is truly a conflict of interest - secondary sources and not op-eds would be the source to use. That is why Silver's op-ed should be removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the consensus that was brought up at BLPN. We're supposed to be replacing the primary sources or adding secondary sources that refer to them, not stripping the opinions that were introduced via them. The LA Times is where we got Starling's opinion from initially, we should be sourcing that first, then Starling's oped (since LAT did a mediocre job of summarizing his opinion). --RAN1 (talk) 09:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

And also as to the reasoning for removal - GRAPEVINE does not refer to opinions, it refers to gossip; NOTRS refers to HuffPost and tabloids, not WaPost and LAT; and PUBLICFIGURE refers to tabloid-reported civvy scandals, not multiple-reliable-source-published conflicts of interest in legal affairs. This is all faulty reasoning and should be ignored. --RAN1 (talk) 09:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

'Exceptional claim, check; extremely low-quality source, check; contains thinly veiled accusations of murder and jury tampering against living people, check.

Chris, I would say you should go ahead and remove this on standard BLP caution and let proponents try to make the case for this ridiculous source. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The page is protected right now, so that's probably not happening. In the meantime though, apparently it was sourced to Richmond, not LA. We should probably remove the opinion and mention McCulloch's COI in the early reaction section per this source . --RAN1 (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request made per growing consensus. Ran1 - the NYT piece covers the "COI" aspect and we just need the other poor and duplicative inline citations to be removed for the others above. The COI is noted already and sourced to the NYT. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove Silver source and content

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Putting this response up here so it's clearer and doesn't interfere with the flow of the conversation. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Jay Sterling Silver said that the grand jury case indicated a conflict of interest between local prosecutors and police, as the former needs to maintain a good relationship with law enforcement.

This content is sourced to an personal opinion piece which makes accusations against living persons. It is not suitable for inclusion and certainly not appropriate to declare a conflict of interest because Silver believes the prosecutors rigged the grand jury to not indict Wilson, whom Silver accuses of murder. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Strongly oppose, per my comments above. ChrisGualtieri is misrepresenting the source's claims, focusing solely on misrepresentations of claims that are not included in the article to the exclusion of the claim that is included in the article, and frankly is wrong on policy. I would support changing the source to the correct, non-broken source. Dyrnych (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources; in this case, the claim comes from an article containing unsupported criminal accusations, the claim we're citing it for is highly debatable, and the source is pretty bad. "St. Thomas University School of Law in Miami" is just about the worst law school in the United States, and Silver's CV is most undistinguished. Remove unless a more serious commentator can be found expressing an opinion of this sort. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The claim that it's being used to support is that in Silver's opinion, a conflict of interest exists when local prosecutors are asked to prosecute police officers. That doesn't seem exceptional to me. And while CG has characterized the opening paragraph of the piece as containing criminal allegations, I'm not buying it due to the fact that it explicitly says that the lessons of Ferguson are not that the police can get away with murder or that prosecutors rig grand juries. Silver is suggests that, in general, both of those things can occur (not that, specifically in this case, either of those things happened). And we're not citing the Silver piece for his opinions on grand jury rigging or police murdering in any event, so why should this matter? As to Silver's credentials, he's a widely published opinion writer about law and the Washington Post found his credentials credible enough to lend him a platform.

This would be an excellent thing to debate elsewhere, though. CG knows that he doesn't have consensus to remove Silver's commentary, so this edit request is probably not going anywhere. Dyrnych (talk) 18:35, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The lesson to be learned from the refusal of two grand juries, in Missouri and New York, to indict police officers in the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner is not that police can get away with murder. Nor is it that the grand jury vending machine can be programmed to return a “no bill of indictment” in addition to the “true bills” it normally dispenses. We’ve known that all along.

It is not a misrepresentation it is the opening paragraph in full. Dyrnych, it is important to read the source (or at least the relevant paragraph) before you make a long argument and accuse another editor of misrepresenting a source. The rest of the article is examining the conflict of interest because the system allows police to get away with murder, as the conflict of interest. Your inability to process the source is part of why we disagree, but the source a personal opinion that is inappropriate to use. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

"a conflict of interest exists when local prosecutors are asked to prosecute police officers" is an exceptional claim, and we do need an exceptional source, or at least one with better credentials than Sterling. As an added bonus, if the view isn't exceptional, you should have no trouble finding another source for it. Also the criminal accusations are quite clear, if you bother to read the whole paragraph. Sterling says "cops can get away with murder" ISN'T the lesson, only because, he says, we already knew that. In other words, he IS saying Wilson got away with murder, but is merely saying we all know that and nobody is surprised, which is protest jargon nonsense that should make any intellectually honest person wince painfully. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 19:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

{{{1}}} I maintain that there's a distinction between saying that something can occur and saying that it did occur, this should moot that entire argument. Dyrnych (talk) 19:22, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

What text do you propose to add based on that source? It doesn't even really talk about Ferguson at all; all of the examples/anecdotes supposedly showing how the system could be biased are taken from cases other than Ferguson; and it certainly doesn't say anything about any conflicts of interest, either in general or in the case of Robert McCullogh. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 21:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

There's a quote in the piece that references conflicts of interest ("'The district attorney’s office works way too closely with the local police department and individual officers to be able to objectively look at these cases,' he said.), but it's from the attorney for the family of a police shooting victim rather than (as I initially thought) an expert. I was reading the piece at lunch on my phone, along with a bunch of others that do specifically reference the inherent conflict and are from less reputable (but still RS) sources. On second look, it's not a great source for a claim about conflicts. There's probably not a better source than Silver that makes the claim in the specific context of the Brown grand jury, but I stand by my statement that it's no more an exceptional claim than most other claims about grand juries. I'd be interested to hear why you find it exceptional. Dyrnych (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Here are a few sources that make similar claims about conflicts of interest in general: The Washington Post editorial board, The Houston Chronicle (in the context of a different case and quoting an experienced Houston criminal defense attorney), and Al-Jazeera America (in an opinion piece from Alex S. Vitale). I don't mind presenting more. Dyrnych (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The NYT is better because it is not a low-quality source and IIRC it doesn't make any bombastic claims about cops "getting away with murder". The NYT does not say "conflicts of interest". Please propose text to add based on the NYT source. We can certainly repeat the reported comments from the family atty but they ought to be attributed.

Anyway, the fact that Silver most succinctly expresses the point you wish to reflect in this article does not get you past the fact that he's a low-quality source — and yes, saying the entire grand jury system in America is corrupt or rigged because of pervasive & baked-in conflicts of interest is really something we need to leave to heavyweight commentators and not Jay Sterling Silver.

And, once again, if the claim is really unexceptional then you will find it being said by much better sources. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

"he entire grand jury system in America is corrupt or rigged because of pervasive & baked-in conflicts of interest" misstates Silver's claim. Silver's saying that there's a conflict of interest in the specific context of local prosecutors handling police shootings, and I just provided three other sources that make the same point (though not necessarily in relation to Ferguson) in addition to the family attorney from the NYT piece. Let's talk about the actual claim and not caricature it. Dyrnych (talk) 17:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it nearly universal practice to have police shootings investigated by local prosecutors? More generally, nearly all crimes are local, and local crimes are investigated by local prosecutors. If so, then it is indeed a sweeping claim about the entire grand jury system, at least insofar as it applies to police shootings (sorry I did not specify that last part). I certainly don't think I have caricatured the view. Nonetheless, it is a very big claim. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The argument is that because the police and the prosecutor's office have a close working relationship, it is in the interest of both police and prosecutors to maintain that close working relationship. Thus, there's a conflict of interest for the prosecutors when it comes to investigating crimes in which police officers are potential defendants; prosecutors are perceived (accurately or not) as going easier (intentionally or not) on police officers That's a dynamic that doesn't exist when local prosecutors investigate crimes in which non-police-officers are defendants. So the proposed solution is to appoint special prosecutors in shootings by police officers to remove the actual or apparent conflict. It's actually a pretty commonly-held view by civil liberties groups and libertarians. Dyrnych (talk) 18:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand the argument. What I don't understand is why you are arguing for this crappy source instead of almost effortlessly finding a much better one. (Also, whenever we finish with this, we'll want to fix the WP prose so it doesn't wrongly imply that there was something unusual in this case about having a local prosecutor handle the investigation.) Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Did you see the sources I posted above? I honestly don't think that Silver is that bad, but the WaPo editorial would work just as well if not better. Any issues with that source? Dyrnych (talk) 18:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No, I am sorry, I did not see that. I'd be fine with prose sourced from the WaPo ed board. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

FCAYS is it just me or does everyone thing in "black or white" (argument)-type divides on these matters? Going from poor source to -> better source or with more clarity seems to difficult here. I've previously wanted the special prosecutor content in the "Aftermath" section and sourced to the NYT. I'll take WaPo's editorial or just about anything over op-ed pieces. Op-eds will not survive FAC and they will need to be removed anyways. Since I am not well-understood here, can someone make another edit request because my issue was with the Op-ed. I swear, every time I post something, it is really troubling to be entirely misunderstood so many times and go so far off topic in pursuit of clarification. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Probably because I have not been following your other discussion (and I was out of town a couple weeks), I am afraid I don't follow your question  :( Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 20:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

My argument is that Misplaced Pages needs to severely limit the use of personal opinions about living persons because they reflect an inappropriate appeal to authority and often a questionable cause. Opinion pieces are poor sources because they are not subject to proper editorial controls and as a result are WP:QUESTIONABLE and under WP:GRAPEVINE. Broader non-opinion sources are more likely to be reliable and reflective. There is no serious debate between a biased opinion piece or an in-depth report by the New York Times. My intention is to replace the opinion pieces with stronger sources to make the article more neutral, nuanced and reliable. This will need to be done as part of the way to Featured Article status. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Opinion sources are not necessarily WP:QUESTIONABLE. I challenge you to look at any opinion source that we're using in this article and state that it is primarily based on personal opinion, as opposed to analysis. If you actual look at the policy on WP:BIASED, you'll find a much more applicable principle: "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." That's what we're doing here: presenting the different viewpoints on various matters related to the Brown case because it is important to the comprehensiveness of the article that we do so.

As other editors have told you, opinion sources have nothing to do with WP:GRAPEVINE either. By making that comparison, you're arguing that opinion sources are by definition unsourced or poorly sourced, conjectural, or otherwise fail verifiability. Note, again, that WP policy specifically allows the use of opinion sources.

Instead of continuing this argument (for which you have essentially no support among editors or within policy), why don't you take this to the reliable sources noticeboard? You are ignoring clear consensus when you bring this up over and over again, and your argument will be dismissed as frivolous every time. Dyrnych (talk) 16:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Another straw man argument. Alanscottwalker and TFD made excellent points which I recognize and now advance. There seems to be quite the consensus that opinion sources are undesirable and I am raising that issue. Why is Silver's opinion piece better then the New York Time's report? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:07, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. It's a straw man argument to refute your characterizations of opinion sources and your rationale for advocating for their non-use? I want you to point me to the "consensus that opinion sources are undesirable." If you're pointing to Alanscottwalker's statements as evidence of consensus for your position, you have certainly misunderstood those statements. Dyrnych (talk) 17:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Again: Why is Silver's opinion piece better then the New York Time's report? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Read the discussion above and understand that whatever argument you're trying to have is moot. This has been discussed. Dyrnych (talk) 17:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Why is Silver's opinion piece better then the New York Time's report? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you think that if you repeat this over and over it will make me think that you've read the discussion above as I asked you to do? Why should I have to provide a summary of that discussion (in which you would see that a different WaPo editorial piece has replaced the Silver source as the proposed source for this claim)? Dyrnych (talk) 17:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Fine - don't like the example. How about: Why is any opinion piece better then the New York Time's report? An editorial is still an opinion piece by definition. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Because (1) the editorial is primarily about prosecutorial conflicts of interest, while the NYT piece mentions conflict of interests only briefly; (2) the editorial is predominately about the Brown and Garner cases, while the NYT piece is predominately about unrelated cases and mentions the Brown case only as a framing device; (3) the editorial makes the opinion statement in the context of the Brown case, while the opinion statement in the NYT editorial was made in the context of a different case; (4) unlike the notable Washington Post editorial board, the person making the statement about the conflict of interest is otherwise unremarkable (the attorney for a shooting victim's family); (5) in either case we'd still be quoting an opinion and attributing it to its speaker; and (6) there is no qualitative difference between quoting an opinion that appears in a non-opinion piece and quoting an opinion that appears in an opinion piece. Dyrnych (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Louis Head's comments are given undue weight

The content surrounding Louis Head is related to an emotional outburst by Brown's stepfather after the grand jury decision was announced. Louis head did not start a riot, there was no crime committed by Louis Head and this inclusion implies that he intended or did start a riot. In the aftermath there were places that were burned down by protestors, but they were not lead or resultant of Head's comments. Therefore, this is undue material which memorializes an legitimizes an emotional outburst. The content to which it is used is:

After the grand jury's decision was announced, Michael Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, turned to a crowd of demonstrators who had gathered, and yelled, "Burn this motherfucker down" and "Burn this bitch down", according to a New York Times video. Moments before, he had said "If I get up I'm gonna start a riot." He later apologized for the outburst.

This serves to imply that the riots were inspired by Head's comments and were lead by him. This is unacceptable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that the "gonna start a riot" language is undue, but the "burn this bitch down" language is a notable response to the incident and was widely covered in reliable sources. I oppose its removal. Dyrnych (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Calling for a riot and arson, immediately before a riot and arson, seems pretty relevant to me. In addition to the sources discussing the video directly, there are further sources specifically discussing this in the context of charges for inciting riots. We shouldn't go deep into coverage of this, but 2-3 sentences covering it is not WP:UNDUE. I also oppose its removal.

• http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/justice/ferguson-protests-investigation/
• http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/02/police-consider-charging-michael-brown-stepfather/19777847/

Gaijin42 (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Implying he cited a riot when he did not and was not charged is a problem per WP:BLPCRIME. We should not even imply a crime occurred when the person has not been convicted. McCulloch said that even the pressing of charges was very unlikely. There was no direct cause and effect. Head did not lead the protestors and incite those people to commit arson at that time. The riot and arson happened elsewhere and I do not see any reliable source directly linking Head to it, much less - BLPCRIME says it is not to be included. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

BLPCRIME talks about direct descriptions and/or accusations of crime-committing, which from the quote you've provided does not exist here. Indirect implication has nothing to do with that. Since this doesn't carry any BLPCRIME implications, this should be good to keep. --RAN1 (talk) 09:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I quote "...editors must seriously consider not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." It gives the impression that Head was trying to start a riot and Ferguson later had a string of torches and rioting. Head was was calling for arson and encouraging a riot, which by itself, is a crime. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

There's a distinction between including material in an article that suggests that a person has committed acts that might, with other information, constitute a crime and including material in an article suggesting that a person has committed a crime. You're making a logical leap from "Head did X act" to "Head committed a crime," using your own analysis to supply the intervening premise "Doing X act constitutes committing a crime." Dyrnych (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Inciting a riot is a crime - the police investigated the matter and Head was not charged or convicted. The fact that this aspect is missing does not make the inclusion not UNDUE or proper per BLP. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

At this point, it's clear consensus is overwhelmingly against your interpretation of BLPCRIME (which under most interpretations does not cover factual incriminating information, by the way), so I don't see this change happening anytime soon. --RAN1 (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: Yes, inciting a riot is a crime. But you don't get to take it upon yourself to decide that Head's actions constitute the crime of inciting a riot and use your conclusion to determine that an account of those actions cannot be included in the article. Dyrnych (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME says "editors must seriously consider not including material" not "such material cannot be put into an article". At this very moment we are considering it, thus the policy is satisfied. Head's statements are indisputable. He is on video making the statements. The statements were widely covered. If we treat BLPCRIME strictly as CG interpretes, this entire article would need to be deleted, as we repeatedly imply, accuse, or give information, or repeated allegations about hypothetical crimes by Brown, Wilson, McCoulloch, etc. (Brown robbed, Wilson murdered, police didn't follow process, McColloch threw the case, etc. etc etc) If a crime was committed or not is up to the authorities., but as with every other aspect of the case, controversy over if crimes were actually committed, charged correctly, and the public perception of actions (even if not a crime) are quite relevant to our readers. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

That portrayal is not a reality. The implication is there because the context is not, but I digress it is still undue. Why is the content included when the Brown family statement is not? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no objection to including the Brown's subsequent apologies and saying that it was just a moment of grief. (Although I note it was not quite a spontaneous reaction to the result, as the family had been told prior to the lengthy announcement by McColloch)Gaijin42 (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I rather not get involved in the emotional aspects when all I want is the dropping of UNDUE quotes. Gaijin42, you said "Calling for a riot and arson, immediately before a riot and arson, seems pretty relevant to me." That is why I referred to BLPCRIME because even I picked up on the implication. There is no direct connection to the events and while comments were said, context is everything. I am not out to remove the factoid, just reduce the implication without putting a police statement that Head's action did not incite a riot and give it even more attention. The event is pretty trivial, so a sentence or two at most - without the quotes, is best. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

...So is this a crime or gossip? I can't tell because you're referencing BLPCRIME yet referring to the event as trivial and a factoid, which are pretty much mutually exclusive. --RAN1 (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The CNN definition, pardon the ambiguity and reference, defines factoid as being interesting, but trivial. Can someone make proposal to change the wording. I would, but my commentary seems to have resulted in confusion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not confused. I'm pointing out the contradiction in your statement. Since there is no consensus for changing the wording, setting up an edit request would be a waste of time. --RAN1 (talk) 06:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH

Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster, acknowledged that the grand jury was given information based on the state law before being informed that deadly force cannot be used merely to prevent the escape of an unarmed suspect.

This seems to be under WP:SYNTH The "The Grand Jury Wrangled With Confusing Instructions" source does not even mention Koster. The other source, "Lawrence O’Donnell: Missouri atty. general admits Ferguson grand jury was misled" is published by the Rawstory and gets its information from the Daily Kos. The grand jury was given the law as it exists - it was not "based on state law" and the Garner ruling is a civil matter so this was no misleading. O'Donnell's program is factually inaccurate and the Daily Kos and Raw story are unreliable sources - let's not filter poor sources to state, incorrectly, what the Attorney General actually stated. This should be corrected or removed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Remember all those things I've said about independent legal analysis by editors? The above is an example: "The grand jury was given the law as it exists - it was not 'based on state law' and the Garner ruling is a civil matter so this was no misleading." The prosecutors actually stated that the grand jury should not rely on the previously-presented Missouri statute because of intervening case law, per the first source. It's certainly relevant that Koster advocated for the updating of Missouri state law to comply with Tennessee v. Garner and the Raw Story piece is an acceptable but not great source for the mere quote of Koster. If there's a better source for that quote, we should use that instead, and in any event it should be rephrased. Dyrnych (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Better source: Missouri Attorney General Wants Tougher Deadly Force Law - Cwobeel (talk) 21:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposal re Ben Caselman

Edit request done. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In the section Reactions to grand jury decision, paragraph 1, I propose that a recent edit of RAN1 be reverted. The change would remove an item about Cassell's criticism of a comparison by Ben Caselman. Both versions of the whole sentence in our article are sourced to section 6 of . The change would be from Paul Cassell, former US federal judge, said that Ben Caselman incorrectly compared federal prosecutions to the investigative grand jury, which was unique because they were investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present, in contrast to normal grand jury proceedings which have been screened for probable cause by a prosecutor. to Paul Cassell, former US federal judge, said the investigative grand jury was unique because they were investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present, in contrast to normal grand jury proceedings which have been screened for probable cause by a prosecutor. The reason for this request is that Cassell's criticism of Caselman's comparison isn't useful in our article because Caselman's comparison isn't in our article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Comments: There is a discussion ongoing about the VC blog as a reliable source, so I'd suggest to wait until that gets resolved. - Cwobeel (talk) 05:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC) This proposal is independent of the Washington Post article's status, so there is no reason to wait, even if there is currently such a discussion in progress, which I doubt. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:16, 4 January 2015 (UTC) The Volokh Conspiracy is certainly a reliable source for its own opinions. That said, I'm not sure why the Caselman commentary has been removed from the article, so I'd like to see something about that before I weigh in on whether or not our assessment of the Cassell piece should or should not include its take on Caselman. Dyrnych (talk) 06:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Could you give a link to the version of our article that contains the Caselman (or Casselman) commentary, with directions to where it is in that version? --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC) It looks like the actual Casselman commentary last appeared in the article in this edit and can be found in the last paragraph of section 7.3.2. This edit resulted in an incorrect attribution of Paul Cassel's argument to Casselman while purporting to "condense" Casselman's argument. Any mention of Casselman in the article's text was removed (I suspect inadvertently, based on the edit summary) in this one. Dyrnych (talk) 15:33, 4 January 2015 (UTC) I made a mistake in the condensing edit because I did cross the names in the shortening. I believe I was working off Cassell's source instead for that. I became aware of the issue and removed it because the source was not up to par and was not NPOV. Prior to its final removal the error was rectified, then relegated to lower usage for the federal grand jury statistic before it was left as a single artifact in this edit. The source, was originally added by me and I am also responsible for its ultimate removal because it was inadequate. Its removal was inadvertent, in terms of announcing it, but it is because I already removed from my drafts when I attempted restoration. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Dyrnych and ChrisGualtieri, Thanks for the links. Looking at the Casselman article , I noticed that Casselman and Cassell aren't as far apart as I thought regarding the state vs federal item, considering this remark of Casselman, "Wilson’s case was heard in state court, not federal, so the numbers aren’t directly comparable." Regarding how we should proceed, I suggest taking this editing task step by step, and the first step would be to implement the current proposal. The next step would be to revisit the Casselman article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC) I can support this. Dyrnych (talk) 01:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC) I just now made an edit request for this proposal. We can wait until it's implemented and then start a new talk section for discussion of the Casselman article, or start the new talk section sooner. Your choice. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2015 (UTC) I think the time has past for them to be used - the article is moving forward and getting stronger. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Make the change for misstatements of fact. (Also the name is Casselman) Casselman's logical fallacy was rectified by Cassell, but Casselman did not make the distinction (in the first place) to which Ran1 attributed. Casselman highlighted biases and public pressure as the reason for the low indictments. There was no distinction between the process and Cassell revealed that distinction in the argument. Ran1's insertion was not based on either text and seems to have been a hastily drawn conclusion which neither source advanced as ever having been made. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Edit request, Reactions to grand jury decision, Ben Caselman part This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. Per consensus in the above discussion, I request implementation of the proposal described in the opening message of the above section. Specifically, in the section Reactions to grand jury decision, paragraph 1, change sentence 4 from Paul Cassell, former US federal judge, said that Ben Caselman incorrectly compared federal prosecutions to the investigative grand jury, which was unique because they were investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present, in contrast to normal grand jury proceedings which have been screened for probable cause by a prosecutor. to Paul Cassell, former US federal judge, said the investigative grand jury was unique because they were investigating with no assurance that any criminal conduct was present, in contrast to normal grand jury proceedings which have been screened for probable cause by a prosecutor. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:38, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request, Darren Wilson's interview and testimony, same cite repeated

Edit request done. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. In the section Darren Wilson's interview and testimony I request the following deletions of inline cites. Paragraph 1, sentence 2 Wilson said that he had just left a call involving a sick person when he heard on his radio that there was a theft in progress at a local convenience store.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> Paragraph 2 sentence 4 Brown "started swinging and punching at me from outside the vehicle", and Brown had his body against the door.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> Paragraph 3, sentence 1 According to Wilson, Brown then said "you're too much of a fucking pussy to shoot me" and grabbed for his gun and twisted it, pointing it at him, into his hip area.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> Paragraph 3, sentence 3 The gun was somewhat lined up with Brown, and Wilson pulled the trigger twice, but the weapon failed to discharge.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> Paragraph 3, sentence 4 On the next try, the gun fired and Brown then attempted to hit him multiple times inside his vehicle. Wilson shot at Brown again, but missed and he took off running east, while Wilson exited his vehicle and radioed for backup.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> Paragraph 3, sentence 5 Wilson followed him, yelling for him to stop and get on the ground, but he kept running. Brown eventually stopped and turned and made a "grunting noise" and started running at him with his right hand under his shirt in his waistband.<ref name=CBS.Documents/> I'm requesting these deletions of inline cites because the material they apply to are already covered by an inline cite to the same ref later in each paragraph, without an intervening inline cite to a different ref. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC) Support. Dyrnych (talk) 01:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC) Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Replace source.

The text:

According to the spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis field office, the protests and riots played no role in the FBI's decision to investigate.

Is sourced to the New York Daily News which is a dubious source. I checked a bunch of other sources and the statement that the protests and riots played no role in the decision to investigate is missing in many sources - including what appears to be the original source. Other sources which contain the investigation itself, but not this claim include: If we cannot get the original statement we should remove this attribution because such a fact is not reported in major outlets, local outlets or internationally. Sources which trace back to the AP source point to the Kmov source as well. Instead Daily News says: "Cheryl Mimura, a spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis field office, insisted the anger in the streets played no role in their decision to investigate. She said Brown’s death was already on their radar." This seems to be some pretty loose paraphrasing and very different from other sources. It may be best to remove it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:03, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

NYDN is fine for nuts-and-bolts fact reporting, IMO, and very similar language is found in major outlets, e.g. a google search for Ferguson Cheryl Mimura returns this NBC-branded article which reads:

Special Agent Cheryl Mimura, a spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis office, said they have been keeping an eye on the case since since the beginning. "We've been reviewing the matter (since Saturday), today we officially opened an investigation into a potential civil rights violation," she said, noting that the decision was not motivated by community outrage. "Regardless of the media attention or the public’s attention to this matter, this is something that we would routinely do."

• That source does not match the information being used in the article. As a result I am changing this to a request to remove the source and the offending line. Even NBC source is paraphrasing rather than directly commenting about it. Mimura does not seem to have made the statement to the effect of "the protests and riots played no role in the FBI's decision to investigate." ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

"noting that the decision was not motivated by community outrage." Given that source text, I'm afraid I don't see the problem? Just change the WP prose to track the source. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:01, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Let me clarify, "no role" versus "not motivated by" are not the same. The former excludes all influence. The latter allows influence - provided it was not the impetus for the decision. A change in wording is required to maintain accuracy - even in the paraphrasing. I hold NBC in far higher regard than the NY Daily News and this seemingly simple wording choice has very different implications. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm a bit of a literalist, and I would read "not motivated by" as meaning there was no influence. I personally doubt that this is true, but it is what the FBI spokesperson said. In any event, I took you to be arguing that we needed to remove the prose and source entirely, instead of merely fixing the prose to track the source. If you're just saying we need to fix the prose, I agree. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 19:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I oppose removal of this claim and support (1) changing the source to the NBC source and (2) changing the prose to track that source. I would suggest:

A spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis field office stated that the decision to open an investigation was not motivated by the protests and riots.

Dyrnych (talk) 03:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you. Can we move this to edit request now? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll give other editors some time to comment so that the edit request is based on consensus. There's no rush. Dyrnych (talk) 05:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

OK with me. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks reasonable. Thargor Orlando (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Check. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Per the consensus above, I request that paragraph 1, sentence 2 of the "FBI Investigation" subheading of "Investigations" be changed FROM (old text):

According to the spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis field office, the protests and riots played no role in the FBI's decision to investigate.

TO (new text):

A spokeswoman for the FBI's St. Louis field office stated that the decision to open an investigation was not motivated by the protests and riots.

Again, per the consensus above I request that the source for this statement be changed FROM (old source):

<ref name=NYDailyNews.FBI>{{cite web |first=Michael |last=Walsh |first2=Corky |last2=Siemaszko |title=FBI takes over St. Louis teen shooting probe as Justice Department monitors case |date=August 11, 2014 |accessdate=August 21, 2014 |website=New York Daily News |url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mike-brown-family-condemns-looting-violence-candlelight-vigil-article-1.1899157 |archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20140812093905/http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mike-brown-family-condemns-looting-violence-candlelight-vigil-article-1.1899157 |archivedate=August 12, 2014 |deadurl=no}}</ref>

TO (new source):

<ref name=NBC.FBI>{{cite web |title=FBI Investigating Ferguson Police Shooting of Teen Michael Brown |date=August 11, 2014 |accessdate=January 6, 2015 |website=NBCNews.com |url=http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/fbi-investigating-ferguson-police-shooting-teen-michael-brown-n177761}}</ref>

Dyrnych (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Grand juror lawsuit

According to St. Louis Public Radio, an anonymous grand juror in the Brown case has filed a lawsuit against Bob McCulloch. The gravamen of the lawsuit is that McCulloch publicly mischaracterized the case and said inaccurate things about their conclusions, including that there was no support for charging Wilson. Because Missouri law forbids grand jurors from speaking publicly about the cases they were involved in, the lawsuit contends that is it a violation of the grand juror's civil rights that the grand juror cannot correct McCulloch's purported mischaracterizations. I thought it would be useful if editors were aware of the lawsuit, and I'd say at this point I'm a weak include. Dyrnych (talk) 16:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

STLToday published a breaking news story, and I agree, we should let this simmer a bit before we consider adding it in. --RAN1 (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Pretty axe-grinding, it would appear that the lawsuit essentially states that this one juror disagreed with the way McCullogh characterized the grand jury proceedings, which doesn't really seem to be much basis for complaint, since it takes more than one juror to return an indictment. The suit also claims the grand jury investigation "had a stronger focus on the victim than in other grand jury cases," and beside the question of how the grand juror would know that in the first place, again, it doesn't seem like much of a basis for complaint. If you ask me, it sounds like this juror simply wants to make money on the talk show circuit, since the relief being sought is that he/she wants special permission to talk about the case publicly. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm certainly not claiming to know the juror's motivations and am not going to speculate as to them, but we actually know how the grand juror would know that the Brown case had a stronger focus on the victim than other cases. This was one of multiple cases before the grand jury, so the grand juror would be able to compare the Brown case to others that the grand jury considered. I have my own opinion about the legal merits of the case, but it's at least a notable development (whatever its merits) and one that editors should be aware of. I agree with RAN1 and Gaijin42 that we should probably wait and see what if anything happens before we determine how and whether to cover it. Dyrnych (talk) 16:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I know how grand juries work — that is not even remotely a reasonable basis for comparison so it would appear the juror doesn't know what he/she is talking about. I suspect not much will come of this, either in terms of substantial news coverage or actual legal result. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 17:58, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we should wait. If the suit is successful, then we will have commentary directly from the Juror(s) and the suit itself will become unimportant. If unsuccessful, we have anonymous criticism that doesn't contain much meat (since the plaintiff is trying not to break the law and say anything concrete before they have permission). If unsuccessful I think one sentence should cover it though in the GJ reactions section perhaps. @FCAYS : the "more than other cases bit" I read to mean more than the other cases that were presented to that particular GJ. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• Do not include because it is under breaking news. The facts are not well-known at this time. It's importance not known either. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
• I think it should be included. Regardless of whether the lawsuit is successful or not, it's still legitimate criticism of McCulloch, by someone directly related to the case. I think this "opinion" is more significant and relevant than the other talking heads opinions we've been recently discussing. I think this passage from the public radio reference sums it up:

In ’s view, the current information available about the grand jurors’ views is not entirely accurate — especially the implication that all grand jurors believed that there was no support for any charges.”. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Explain to me where McCulloch said the grand jury decision was unanimous or any reliable source declared it to be unanimous? I say wait because this is breaking news and it is not directly related to the death of Michael Brown. It is a lawsuit for the right to contribute to public opinion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

No, because I don't want to derail this discussion by dissecting this juror's lawsuit. I think it is directly related to this article, because this juror was one of twelve that was tasked to investigate the death of Michael Brown. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

This question goes directly to the legitimacy and credibility of the "criticism". If it's bogus, it's bogus. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Well then, I guess I'll have to wait for a secondary reliable source to discuss the legitimacy and credibility of the lawsuit and make the determination of bogus or not. But, as OR is certainly allowed on talk pages, feel free to discuss the legitimacy and credibility of the lawsuit without me, as I indicated above. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:36, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:RSBREAKING: "It is better to wait a day or two after an event before adding details to the encyclopedia ... This gives journalists time to collect more information and verify claims, and for investigative authorities to make official announcements." Let's wait a day or two first. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Isaidnoway: You already expressed your view that this criticism is legitimate. I was simply arguing that your view is unfounded. If you want to withdraw from the discussion, that is fine. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 19:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I see no problem in waiting a day or two, but eventually it should be inlcuded. Other mainstream sources are already picking up the story and we may learn more in a couple of days. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is the lawsuit. Trackinfo (talk) 00:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request, Darren Wilson's interview and testimony, move Hostin remark

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section Darren Wilson's interview and testimony, I request that the second to last paragraph, which begins with "CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin...", be moved to the end of the section Witness evaluations. The reason for this request is that this paragraph is not part of Wilson's account but is an evaluation of his account and belongs in the section Witness evaluations. I don't think this change is controversial because it is organizational for consistency with the rest of the Accounts section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I support this edit. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Noncontroversial, and I support. Dyrnych (talk) 03:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request, Reactions to grand jury decision, remove duplicated ref tags

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section Reactions to grand jury decision, I request the removal of duplicated ref tags in the following places:

paragraph 1, sentences 1 and 3

paragraph 3, sentences 1 and 3

paragraph 4, sentence 4

--Bob K31416 (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Support. Dyrnych (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Support - Cwobeel (talk) 03:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Callanecc, There was an implementation error in paragraph 2 (no removal requested) and in paragraph 4 (no removal done). --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Fixed, thank you. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Unneeded source needs removal

This is source is unacceptable to be used per WP:BLP and WP:IRS for a special reason. What makes this source unacceptable? Kinkogate.

Pendleton and Signorino ... claim they were victims of an abuse of power that included use of a grand jury subpoena to find out who sent the anonymous fax even though the grand jury had no role in any investigation.

Fourteen years have past since Senior U.S. District Judge Stephen N. Limbaugh dismissed the last lawsuit, but still Sorkin directly attacks McCulloch for something which never occurred and includes rebuttals, which Sorkin seems to be the origin of. This is a major issue and all sources deriving from Sorkin are in extreme doubt given the severity of the issue, but Sorkin's only use in the article is a "me too" dog pile citation. Please remove this source because it is not even accurate for the citation it is being linked to. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

What is the language in the article sourced to this? Dyrnych (talk) 06:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely none. Source #61 Sorkin, Michael D. (August 17, 2014). "20,000 sign petitions seeking special prosecutor in Michael Brown shooting". It is actually being used for "A petition calling for McCulloch to recuse himself gained 70,000 signatures." - With three other sources and this one gets the "70,000" signatures wrong even in the title. It has no use at all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:46, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

If there's no language being sourced to it, why the lengthy diatribe against Sorkin? I'm fine with removing it, but you could (and should) have advocated for its removal with a hell of a lot less editorializing about what appears to be a matter entirely unrelated to the text that the source is supporting. Dyrnych (talk) 06:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Because of the issue with Op-eds and Sorkin at Robert P. McCulloch (prosecutor). What was once here is now over there and the source appears "reliable" until you realize it is an attack piece. I do not want such a piece finding new life on this page because it appears to be a reliable secondary source about McCulloch and have it slip into some usage. I also want to show why this piece was inappropriate if it ever was used again. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If there's a need for a Sorkin piece in the future, we can discuss all of the problems that you have with him then. It's pointless to do so here and it just wastes editors' time, especially when you didn't even bother to post the language from the article. I've offered my support for the edit and will not discuss it further. Dyrnych (talk) 07:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Save your hissy fit for that talk page. I'm for removing this source as it pertains to the phrase The report and video were part of a packet that included information about the shooting afterward. However, I think it should stick around for the petition signature cite while we give an actual date when the petition reached 70k. --RAN1 (talk) 07:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you're looking at a different source, @RAN1:. Dyrnych (talk) 07:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You're right, I searched "61]" and caught in the process without noticing. I've struck out the resulting goofup. --RAN1 (talk) 07:11, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Related discussion: Talk:Robert_P._McCulloch_(prosecutor)#Sorkin_2014 --NeilN 13:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove redundant sentence

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

When the report and video were released, the police stated that Wilson had known Brown was a suspect in the robbery. In a media conference, Jackson said that the robbery was unrelated to the initial contact, and had nothing to do with Wilson stopping Brown and Johnson.

Please change it to:

Jackson held a media conference following the release and said the robbery was unrelated to the initial contact, and had nothing to do with Wilson stopping Brown and Johnson.

This clarifies redundancy in statements and consolidates the wording. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

OK with me. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't this alter the meaning of the text rather than removing a redundancy? Dyrnych (talk) 16:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: Pending discussion of Dyrnych question. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that this does change the existing meaning. But it could be that the existing meaning is a typo. I'm thinking it was meant to say "had not known". While i can support the proposed version, I think we should immediately afterwards include the assertion from Wilson saying that he recognized them during the encounter. Leaving everything chronologically is a problem, because there were significant misinformation, questions and allegations early in the timeline that were answered later. The further we defer presenting those answers to the reader, the more likely they stop reading while thinking those questions and misinformation remain Gaijin42 (talk) 01:13, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The New York Daily News makes a confusion and derives something they felt was implicit. The original announcement did not make the connection. Here is the Soundcloud.

A further description, more detailed, was given over the radio, and uh, stated the officer was walking toward – er the uh, suspect was walking toward QuikTrip. Our officer left the sick call, he encoutered, uh uh, encountered the, uh, I'm sorry. At 12.01 our officer encountered Michael Brown on Canfield Drive. At 12.04 a second officer arrived on the scene, immediately following the shooting and at 12.05 a supervisor was detached, dispatched to the scene, and subsequent officers arrived.

No questions were taken, but Jackson did not make any statement that Wilson identified Brown as a suspect. Just simply the officer heard the call and the officer encounter Michael Brown. At the 3:15 p.m. conference. This Huffington Post piece contains the relevant and full context that Jackson said he did not know if Wilson identified Brown as a suspect. Jackson confirms that the initial contact was not related to the robbery. The second time, Jackson affirms, but the second and third iterations deviate and spawn the confusion. The later interaction then sets the record straight. This is the chronological order and I contained the links to the media as best I could to provide accessibility to verify. NY Daily News does seem to have made an error in "what was known and when", but if anyone values chronology - this helps. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems like the original version is innuendo or a borderline case; the reader is being led to infer that the police chief lied or was mistaken on a crucial detail, even though the source does not state this. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

New York Daily News - Nuff said. The New York Times corrects issues if you submit them in a timely manner. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request, Darren Wilson's interview and testimony, move "A discrepancy reported was ..."

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In the section Darren Wilson's interview and testimony, I request that the second to last paragraph, which begins with "A discrepancy reported was ...", be moved to the end of the section Witness evaluations. The reason for this request is that this paragraph is an evaluation of Wilson's account and belongs in the section Witness evaluations. I don't think this change is controversial because it is organizational for consistency with the rest of the Accounts section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I would leave this as is. The reasoning is that we have yet to develop the section for other witnesses testimonies, and when we do, it would be better to keep the witnesses testimony and the evaluations of each witness together in their own sections. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I also disagree I think, but for opposite reasoning to Cwobeel. There are too many witnesses (60+?) to "develop" we are going to need to move into a more summary style based on reliable sources giving an overview of the testimonies as a whole. Obviously there will be some exceptions for the core participants to the incident, or exceptions for particularly important bits of testimony, but on the whole there won't be a place where we are discussing specific discrepancies of other witnesses. (See the start of the accounts section, where we just describe the fact that there are lots of discrepancies in general). Where we do dig into detail about a particular persons testimony, notable discrepancies should be pointed out nearby so that whatever % of the article users read, they are not left with a misleading presentation of the parts they did read. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

yes, that may be a better rationale. Thanks. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

 Not done "closing" the template as to not waste administrator time, until we have a consensus for something to change Gaijin42 (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Considering that a similar edit request went through previously as uncontroversial, it's unclear what's going on here. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It's also unclear why this passage is so very long and tortured. Here is what the our WP article says:

A discrepancy reported was between Wilson's testimony, in which he said that Brown had his "right hand put it under his shirt and into his waistband" and that after he was shot dead "his right hand was still under his body looked like it was still in his waistband", and the medical investigator report, which said that Brown's "right arm was extended away from his side. His left arm was next to his side his lower arm was beneath his abdomen and his hand was near the waistband of his shorts."

And here is what the source says:

"When he went down his hand was still under his, his right hand was still under his body looked like it was still in his waistband. I never touched him," he told detectives... But the medical investigator did describe how the body was lying. One arm was indeed near Brown's waist. But it was the left, not the right."

Besides our para being 50% longer than the source, it's awful, confusing prose, and adds editorializing words such as "discrepancy" which is not found in the source.

Can't we just say "Wilson reported that Brown had reached his right hand into his waistband and that the hand still appeared to be in the waistband after Brown was shot, but the medical examiner's report indicated that it was the left hand, not the right."

Anybody object to that? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:29, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with FCAYS's version and reasoning. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

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