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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Editor Retention and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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Editor Retention

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User talk:71.239.82.39

Losing another expert content contributor. (No analysis at Editor Retention?) Ihardlythinkso (talk)

Wikimedia's efforts in order to keep Misplaced Pages an open and self-organizing network

We submitted a request for an IEG grant at Grants:IEG/"Wikimedia's efforts in order to keep Misplaced Pages an open and self-organizing network.". It concerns a systematic assessment of the (essential) formal policies to keep Misplaced Pages an open and self-organizing network and of all informal practices of stakeholders to support or subvert this. Your thoughts and comments would be very much appreciated.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.115.180.33 (talk) 13:28, 21 October 2014

How well do we handle usernames?

Sometimes I think our conflict of interest policy is the second most misunderstood thing about Misplaced Pages from the outside world (the first being copyright). Take a look at User talk:British Bandsman. This account has one mainspace edit adding a link to a website, and a sandbox about a magazine with the same name as them. Sounds like "spam" doesn't it .... except the magazine has been going for over 120 years, appears all over the place in a Google Books search, and is in the Guinness World Records as the world's longest running weekly print publication. So why is our standard procedure to block the user and give them instructions that I'm not sure a newbie would understand? If I had the big orange blocked template as a new user, I'd probably be scared away. As for the sandbox, I think it meets WP:GNG and have moved it to mainspace as British Bandsman ... but if I hadn't got involved, a newbie would have got frustrated and we'd be missing an article. What can we do? Ritchie333 18:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I sent him an e-mail indicating that to my eyes the block was not for anything he had done so much as his user name. I also indicated that he can still edit his user talk page and ask that the block be lifted, and that I am willing to offer any help that I might be able to. There is the possibility that this editor might have a COI regarding the topic, maybe being an employee, so there is a chance that maybe the block was a good one. Maybe. I dunno, and don't have enough information to make a decision.

Having said all that, it might not be a bad idea to maybe propose the creation of a specific template for bad user names which doesn't have the big red x on it which really would come across as a very harsh and maybe judgmental to a newbie. John Carter (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd go right back to basics. Why do we block people? Because we believe all or most edits they're about to make will harm the project. A simple "oy, your username is not acceptable, change it here" message (as you describe) would do - then if they actually spam and require reverting or salting, then we can block them per WP:HEAR or WP:COMPETENCE. Isn't our mantra on blocking supposed to be "when in doubt, don't" anyway? Ritchie333 19:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Define "doubt." It is very possible for someone who might not know some details about, for instance, how long National Geographic has been run and how clearly obvious its notability is to think that someone who starts a user name and article by that name to think that there is some form of promotion involved. Honestly, for a lot of smaller companies, having a user name which is the name of a company is grounds for the name being changed. If the edit history is, surprise surprise, related to the content on the topic after which the user is named, that could, not unreasonably, be seen as sufficient to identify an SPA.

Yeah, I know that there could be productive editors who take names related to a specific topic for whatever reason. If User:Smithsonian were to put lots of images of items in the Smithsonian Institution on commons and work more or less exclusively on articles relating to the museums and their contents, that would raise questions too. Particularly if the edits seem to promote the Smithsonian in some way. For all I know, this person maybe was an employee or COI person. I'm not sure, but if a magazine were decades old and still didn't have an article after 10 years here, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that, maybe, an employee wanted to change that.

I do think that maybe the block is open to discussion based on what you said, and I regret that it was done in the way it was, but in a lot of similar cases it does seem that such action is more warranted perhaps than it might have been in this one. John Carter (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Just letting everyone know he's been unblocked. John Carter (talk) 23:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Unblocking is one thing, but getting them to come back is quite another. This is a real problem – it strongly discourages many of the new editors we should be working most to attract. Same thing at Rogiet Primary School / User:Rogiet Primary. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Editor of the year?

Just wondering if anyone thought that maybe we might do something like WP:MILHIST with their "editor of the year" and "newcomer of the year" awards, and, if we were, what criteria we would want to use for determination. John Carter (talk) 22:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I would prefer not singling out a single editor, as there is a lot of potential for inadvertently upsetting worthy contributors in the process. A roll call of honour which recognized everyone who met a set of standards (they could be objective, such as X articles of a specified quality or higher, or subjective, such as three supporting nominations) could be a way to give some thanks to some of the highly appreciated contributors to Misplaced Pages. isaacl (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If there are individuals with the greatest edit count overall this past year, greatest mainspace edit count this year, most GAs or FAs or both this past year, and similar individuals new this past year with either the greatest number of such edits, or most edits per day since first activity, and if there is a way to figure those, I would imagine they would be included. Maybe, beyond that, something like the current editor of the week system, with one person nominating and another seconding, might be sufficient to be included in what might be called the annual "roll of honor". John Carter (talk) 00:21, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Visit Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention/Editor of the Week/Hall of Fame. Free Admission. Open 24 Hours, 7 days a week. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

So I've had better ideas. At least, I'm going to tell myself that. ;) Consider the proposal withdrawn. John Carter (talk) 22:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

A roll of honour can be different than the Editor of Week Hall of Fame by setting up specific criteria, and it would serve to recognize many worthwhile editors, so if it's something you'd like to pursue, that's great. Time is a bit on the short side, though, as I assume many people will become busy with other tasks at this time. isaacl (talk) 02:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I would love to see a parralel program to etow that recognized any editor, not just new and underrecognized ones, that spent their time doing wonky stuff that doesn't attract much attention, such as infobox work, copyediting, vandalism patrol, AfC, AfD, etc. Except for my recent poor behavior, an editor that wonks around and neatens and cleans like myself. (expressly not me tho, for the reason stated above). People who do that kind of stuff are very needed, and generally underappreciated. Just a thought. John from Idegon (talk) 06:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Can you draw up a list of criteria that you had in mind? Would it be based on number of edits of specific types? If so, would this be edits in total, or over a specific period of time? If over a period of time, this would imply regularly issuing the recognition X times a year. If in total, there could be an increasing scale of thresholds to recognize editors as they pass them. Or would it be nomination based? If so, how would the nominations be processed? (A strictly accomplishment-based system could be managed by a small number of people, which always makes it easier to keep an initiative going.) Just a few questions that came to mind; I'm sure you can think of more. isaacl (talk) 06:38, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Issac. Pretty much I'm thinking a nearly identical program to etow, however removing the new and underrecognized clause from the requirements (also the ban on admin types) and adding for work that is not content creation. Wonky stuff like I mentioned above. Also it could be a device to shine light on unseen work that admin types do (do you know what the 'crats do? I don't, but they do it and it must be needed). Also I would like to see nomination by a direct peer required. For example, I work mainly in three areas: school articles, place articles and mentoring (altho sadly I haven't been able to do much with the last lately). If I were to be nominated, it should be from someone else that either edits school articles, place articles or that mentors. I am clueless as to a name. Again just a thought to run up the flagpole to see who salutes it. John from Idegon (talk) 07:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The Editor of the Week initiative has, unfortunately, not developed a community of participants discussing the nominations (typically one person simply says "Seconded"). Because it is a low-stakes recognition targeted towards a specific type of editor, the absence of a more explicit vetting process for the nominations isn't a big deal. For a more general award aimed at a broader audience, though, I think a more substantial screening process is needed to provide additional value above the low overhead of a personal thank you or barnstar from a direct peer. For better or worse, I suspect it would be difficult to keep a group of participants engaged to process nominations thoroughly and regularly. isaacl (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't mean to piss on any bodies parade. I like new ideas and this is a good one. But don't forget one very important thing...Someone has to be behind the scenes moving all the necessary parts to keep a thing like Editor of the Week going, week after week for two years. Things like this don't manage themselves. If someone is going to start a new award (which is a good thing and one I support) they had better be ready to stick to it for the long haul and keep their hands on the steering wheel. I have been that someone, behind the Editor of the Week curtain, making sure everything that needed to be done was getting done. GoPhightins has helped dispensing the award and Isaac1 has been very handy with advice and good counsel. Let's not get something going unless someone steps forward and commits to keeping it going. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:50, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to say, but I do believe Buster is right. It would be fun and useful, but I haven't been able to even help you guys out at eotw as I wanted to, and I know I cannot commit any action to a new process. I was hoping there had been some growth here, but that is apparently not the case. My absense here saddens me. Hope no one takes it personal. I have been using my wikitime, limited as it is for some article content projects with school articles. Wish it could be different, but having no net access at home limits me a bunch. John from Idegon (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

It's one of the reasons I asked if you were thinking of an accomplishment-based system, since this would not require as many people to maintain, and could be done in a more on-again, off-again fashion. One idea I had was to have a rotating "Barnstar of the (month/quarter/some period)", where the Editor Retention project would promote a barnstar and seek out recipients. It would allow editors to participate without requiring a long-term commitment. I'm uncertain of how effective it would be, but at least it would be very low overhead. isaacl (talk) 15:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

It might be possible to broadly announce an effort, perhaps for a month or other preordained period, an effort to recognize individuals in particular fields that don't often get such recognition. So, for instance, maybe making February a month dedicated to recognizing article reviewers, March a month dedicated to recognizing people who work on missing references or similar, that sort of thing. In some cases, they might have clearcut quflifications, like doing a countable number of GA, FA, or peer reviews, but not in all. If it were to be done, I think maybe the best way to start would be to propose some month as a month for specific recognition of individuals in an easily quantifiable field and seeing how much input it might have. If there is enough, then maybe it could be extended to less easily quantifiable types of contributions. John Carter (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind other people going in for EOTW, but it's personally something I've not warmed towards as I prefer to look at editor's contributions and judge them on their own merits. Ritchie333 10:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

John from Idegon Hey John. Do you remember this? I found it in an old file....

• Brainstorming. It doesn't quite fit your proposal but it can be adapted to better encompass the editor of the Year idea and be available during a given month, advertised, and dispensed by anyone that wants. Little or no overhead.```Buster Seven Talk 16:01, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

• • It may not quite fit the proposal, but it works, and that's what matters. And, for maybe slightly older editors (post-stork variety) we can use the File:Exceptional newcomer.jpg with some form of text variation as well. John Carter (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Just the other day there were 4,567,890 articles On Misplaced Pages

NOTICE THE SEQUENCE

• ```Buster Seven Talk 18:37, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Turn the MoodBar back on?

After six months, 3.6% of editors who were able to use the MoodBar were still editing, compared to 3.3% of those who did not have the option, per Ciampaglia, Giovanni Luca; Dario Taraborelli (September 4, 2014). "MoodBar: Increasing new user retention in Misplaced Pages through lightweight socialization". arXiv:1409.1496.

Please voice your opinion at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Turn the MoodBar back on. Thank you. EllenCT (talk) 02:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyone speak Dutch?

User:Theobald Tiger, who has on his user page indicated that he was the wikipedian-in-residence for six GLAM institutions in the Netherlands, has recently blanked his user page and user talk page apparently due to unfounded aspersion on him from someone in a request for clarification and amendment of arbitration. Does anyone here speak Dutch well enough to contact him in the Dutch wikipedia? John Carter (talk) 21:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I speak a version of Flemish from the 1950's (when my parents emigrated to the U.S). It is often said that the Americans and the English are separated by a common language. The same is even more true of the Flemish and the Dutch. I'll give it a go but no promises. Buster Seven Talk 22:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, one of our most prolific editors and active admins, is a native Dutch speaker. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern, but since I left one limbo, just to step in the next, I have decided to leave. My command of English is such that I am able to communicate more or less effectively. Cheers! Upon the death of my enemies, for all my friends are gone! Please do not contact me on the Dutch Misplaced Pages. I am a nuisance to them, and I want to save them further embarrassment. Theobald Tiger (talk) 23:11, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Theobald, als ik iets voor je kan doen, laat het me weten ajb. Hola--dit heeft iets met Landmark te maken? Dat is gezellig! Als je iets te roddelen hebt kan je dat altijd via email doen. Drmies (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oh, die Waaksnikkel, dat is inderdaad een lul. Die naam komt me bekend voor, maar ik ben vergeten waarvan. Drmies (talk) 23:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Ik spreek Vlaams mor ik kan et niet tu goed skreven. 'tis nie Algemeen Nederlands. 'tis gewoen wa dannik weit. Mesceen gebruik ik woorden verkeert. Ik vraag dada hij nan anders foutjes vergave.
  Nou is't précis damme makoar een bietsen beter kennen. Ik vraag dada bleft. 'bedankt, Buster Seven Talk 02:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Of Possible Concern to this Project

An experienced editor is feeling some frustration and appears to be thinking of bowing out from the project. Please see this and the related talk page discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

His request has been answered. GoodDay (talk) 01:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

It's reversible. His talk page is still open. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

•  Done (added this page to list) Buster Seven Talk 14:56, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

This project was mentioned...

at Questions for the candidate - Titodutta's answer to question #15. Buster Seven Talk 23:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Thought this might interest you...

I've only just become aware of this project. Thought you might be interested in something I wrote a long time ago: User:Dweller/Suggestions for wikistressed editors. --Dweller (talk) 16:51, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

See also User:Beyond My Ken/thoughts#A personal prescription for surviving Misplaced Pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:28, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Creator of WER takes a break and hands in admin tools

Dennis Brown, creator of WikiProject Editor Retention and at times one of Misplaced Pages's most active admins and agitators for new, better policies, will be on a long Wikibreak and has asked for removal of his sysop rights. In his talk page statement Dennis describes the reasons for no longer being currently available for edting the encyclopedia or carrying out admin duties. His motives for taking a break are entirely personal which dispels the meme that many of our most active users stop editing due to harassement by admins and other users. I am sure that the Misplaced Pages community will join together in hoping that Dennis will soon overcome his domestic issues and will return to regular editing in the not too distant future. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

We have few enough competent admins as is (presently company excluded, of course), and I agree that we all hope that these affairs, which have, as he's said, been seemingly snowballing over the past year, resolve themselves quickly and for the best. I also sincerely hope that, upon the final resolution of these affairs, that he finds that his life situation will allow him to return to editing, in any capacity. John Carter (talk) 02:20, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Really? You're going to turn this into a non-sequitur political statement??? NE Ent 02:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Since when has it been a topic that admins have quit due to harassment by other admins?? What a manufactured joke. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 03:32, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

DB's wikibreak & suspension of administratorship duties, noted. We await his return. GoodDay (talk) 03:37, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

With Dennis's situation in mind, we should have a talk about the direction and leadership at WER. Titodutta's heartfelt response to Q-15 in his RfA makes it embarrassingly clear that we really don't have any plan or course of action to take when it comes to our declared goal---retaining editors. WER is entering it's third year. We.ve talked a lot. WE need to talk more about what to do. I thought maybe we could go thru the list of WER members and invite those interested to have a "brainstorming session" or something, to address the issue. Maybe focus on Admins that have visited and participated at the WER:talk page. Maybe a dedicated IRC-channel conversation. Something. I told Tito I would get back to him in a week or two. I'm sure he is busy with his visit to the Misplaced Pages Official Administrator Tailor to be fitted for his new velvet robe. I always wondered----Is the mink collar optional? TRA! Buster Seven Talk 04:26, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

The best way for me to encourage retention is by my actions. I never have & never will retire from Misplaced Pages. GoodDay (talk) 05:21, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

First of all we need to find a way of encouraging more friendly behaviour from some editors whose only comments outside their regular content work are almost always in totally unprovoked and extremely bad taste. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Getting an adult to admit that something in the way they behave is "wrong" is extremely difficult in RL. Here, it is impossible. I'm not sure which "some editors" you have in mind. Editor GoodDays comment about leading by example is valid, don't 'ya think? Buster Seven Talk 16:29, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not fitting the velvet robe that's the hard part, at least it wasn't for me. It was getting enough material together to make a mitre that would actually cover my rather awesome head, brain the size of a planet and all that. In more direct response to Buster's points, it would be nice to figure out some tactical ways to proceed. WikiProject X has some ideas about making WikiProjects more effective, which might help retain editors who turn to them for help, and we've a got a well-enough developed dispute resolution process to hopefully prevent the loss of too many editors through those disputes who haven't earned their being lost, but I think we haven't really identified any specific tactical matters we could take which might help reduce burnout. Any ideas? One I could think of, maybe, even if it is a minor one, would be to try to maybe help make it easier for editors to engage in other WMF entities. Maybe an ERB nut like me might help avoid burnout by taking a break and proofreading a novel over at wikisource, or gathering relevant quotes, or writing past or current news articles for wikinews, or maybe something else. "A change is as good as a break," and, unfortunately, encyclopedia editing is all more or less of one nature, and doesn't allow any breaks from that one nature. John Carter (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, right, providing support in indirect hidden ways, much like the Editor of the Week Award does. We have almost 200 editors that have come forth as members of WER and said, "Yes. I'm In. Let's do something about retaining editors". BTW...your mitre is rather plain and needs some adorning with trinkets and such...a medallion might be nice. .Buster Seven Talk 17:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Break noticeboard?

Thinking about it a little, I think that maybe one way we might help retain editors in at least a few cases might be to give them something useful and maybe, sort of, fun, to do while maybe taking a break from the dramah and conflict that drives a lot of editors away. I do think that most editors here are somewhat fond of reading in general, that being kind of required to write something on the basis of other works, and maybe, emphasis maybe, we could help them find a few things to do that involve just reading which might be both useful and productive, in a sense, while also implicitly providing a link back here. I know that there are a of old PD reference sources of all kinds, from biographical dictionaries to local encyclopedias, sacred texts, and a lot of fairly good and well-written PD nonfiction and fiction which dedicated "readers" could read and proofread for wikisource. Wikinews has said in the past that "old" news stories, which could include almost day to day news stories about what President Roosevelt or PM Blair or whoever did, would also be, at least theoretically, acceptable there. And it might, maybe, even be possible to do something like Flashman novels or the various Larry Gonick books, although maybe without the pictures, for editors with experience in a given topic who want to write something "fun". Maybe we could provide some sort of noticeboard of current active or maybe theoretical efforts elsewhere, with individuals willing to offer assistance as needed or if the efforts actually get formally started? John Carter (talk) 17:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Barnstar of the month

Previously, I raised the idea of having a "Barnstar of the month" (or some other fixed period). To anyone interested, what barnstars (see Misplaced Pages:Barnstars for a list) do you suggest as candidates to promote for recognition of worthy recipients? isaacl (talk) 17:23, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Ideas for addressing burnout

Regarding the question raised above with respect to burnout: Jeff Atwood had an interesting blog post where he explained some of the design of his Stack Exchange web site with an analysis of the life cycle of a forum participant. In order to more effectively integrate newcomers, you need experienced people to help them out. Over time, though, people get tired of answering the same questions over and over, and inevitably start becoming more brief in their answers, pointing more to frequently asked questions lists, and become less effective at helping some portion of incoming population. So to sustain the community, you need newcomers to graduate to helping the latest participants, freeing up the previous set of helpers to move onto other tasks.

Thus as numerous editors have discussed (including Kudpung, Jimbo Wales, and even me), recruiting more skilled contributors to Misplaced Pages to keep the pipeline flowing is important. (On a related note, encouraging a robust influx of administrators is healthy not because Misplaced Pages is short of administrators, but because it helps forestall burnout.)

Previously, Kudpung had suggested getting the Wikimedia Foundation to advertise for new editors; I had suggested personal recruitment (inviting persons who you know can be excellent contributors to participate). (Atwood's approach was to use badges, copying video game achievement systems; Misplaced Pages's barnstar system is similar.) What other ideas does anyone have for expanding the pool of new editors? isaacl (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. But it almost seems like the focus will then shift to replacing editors rather than retaining them. I know there's burnout and seven year itch and all but editors come here asking for something to be done to save the editor that's on his way out the door. Both replacing and retaining are important. Buster Seven Talk 18:06, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It's just one way to specifically deal with the question of burnout, not by replacing editors, but giving them the option (should they desire) to take on different roles. Of course other initiatives can be launched (such as helping people find diversions, as John Carter suggests), and naturally there are many other relevant issues that need other approaches. To help avoid too many digressions within one thread, perhaps a separate discussion section can be opened regarding the scenario you raise, where the burnout has already occurred. isaacl (talk) 18:19, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Editor interaction reference page

Based on the discussion thread Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 115#Telling people their edits are promotional, I was wondering if Misplaced Pages editors looking to help out newcomers could benefit from a reference page that would provide sample replies to various situations. It would list out a scenario (such as the sample question in that thread, "Why did you block me for adding factual information to an article?") and a response. It's easy to forget after writing a few dozen replies to temper the message with some empathy for the difficulties faced by a new editor who doesn't understand how Misplaced Pages works or its basic principles. Being able to refer to a sample reply that you could then tailor for a specific situation might be useful. What does everyone think? isaacl (talk)

I went and posted the following, not noticing that it was an archived discussion. The sample responses essay page is fine—go for it. The suggested responses could also be made into templates and those collected on an essay page. However, there is a deeper problem in that discussion that needs to be addressed. What I would like to have contributed there: The day has long passed when savvy SPA promotional editors, new or seasoned, can be easily be flagged based upon a quick look at edit histories. With tools available, it is possible to pad one's edits with hundreds of minor article and talk edits in a very short time (easy enough for paid promoters). Marketing and lobbying types are expert, by definition, at spinning compelling scenarios for the view they are promoting (even if that includes funding a "study" or "expert" that departs from the mainstream, planting articles through press releases and sympathetic authors, smearing competing views, etc.). We know that there are editors here who promote (or in some cases delete unfavorable) certain information, and surely many/most of those who get paid to do so are aware of how to stay just under the radar—there are even "how to promote your company through Misplaced Pages" articles out there. Is it productive to retain editors whose reason for being here, paid or not, is promotional? In many cases, the articles affected get little notice apart from advocates and a few drive-by editors who quickly give up or are reverted in the face of editors with a vested interest. Given that our dispute resolution processes primarily dwell on behavior and take little notice of content, Misplaced Pages needs a more robust and more readily accessible method to address these situations. Reliance on already stretched admins, many of whom also tend to focus on actionable behavior issues, to sift through content issues is not always reliable. Having policies against advocacy, COI, fringe content, reporting all significant viewpoints in reliable sources and similar content-related issues is nearly useless when enforcement is unavailable. I like the proposed items in terms of keeping things civil, but I also think that they need to be fitted into something that does something concrete to address the problem of advocacy. That might take the form a task force, which has been suggested before, that specifically examines content and sourcing when advocacy issues arise (which would also provide a firmer basis or assist to admins during dispute resolution processes). It is beating against the wind to rail against content-related advocacy and COI when it is so difficult to flag and enforce. • Astynax 19:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

My proposal deliberately does not involve the creation of templates; the idea is to provide sample responses, which editors would adapt to meet the specific situation. Regarding the rest of your comment, could you please open a separate thread to discuss your concerns, to avoid diverting the focus of this section? Thanks. isaacl (talk) 20:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

As I said, go for it. Your essay page can take any form you wish. • Astynax 20:17, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

(e-c) In response to Astynax's longer comment above, this is I believe a very valid and reasonable request from someone who I know has been dealing with at least one very problematic "civil POV pusher" of the possible COI type. While I want to admit that there are a few editors who are acknowledgedly paid editors who are still useful and valuable away from their paid editing, like User:CorporateM, and I wouldn't want to see them sanctioned, it might be very useful to get together a group of people willing to do some "mining" of history of problematic editors who seem to possibly be among the biggest reasons individuals leave certain topics or the project entirely. And ArbCom probably isn't the best way to deal with them, because their behavior often isn't that clearly disruptive in some cases. But, at the same time, ANI will often not get enough attention or input to generate a consensus. Maybe we could get together something like a committee or task force, prefereably of people in some way elected to do so, to review complaints of long term disruptive editors, including their history, and maybe, upon reaching a local decision among themselves, if that decision is to proceed to ANI to seek sanctions, to do so and be able to present their reasoning to do so? Also, I suppose, some of these individuals might be able to serve as advisors or even advocates in ArbCom cases, obviously at their own discretion and at the request of the party, if one or more of the parties seek such. John Carter (talk) 20:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Editors who are very active and then suddenly stop

A viewpoint from the archives by @Anne Delong:

Dear editors: Lately I've been working on the db-g13 eligible submissions, and so a lot of the comments I've been reading are six months old. I've been seeing a lot of helpful and constructive edits by Rybec. Today I wanted to leave a message about one of these, and I realized that he/she, after being very active, had suddenly stopped editing last March. I'm a little sad that I didn't notice sooner. There's been a lot of discussion about how to improve the behind-the-scenes part of Misplaced Pages so that editors will be happy to contribute, but some editors who seem happy and haven't been "driven away" stop anyway. There could be many reasons not related to Misplaced Pages, but one thing that could be happening is that some editors find Misplaced Pages editing too appealing. I have talked to two people who have stopped editing completely because they were doing so much of it that it was interfering with their real-life goals and obligations. (I'm sure you are all familiar with the essay Misplaced Pages:Wikipediholic). It could be possible to over-encourage some editors to the point where they have to quit, and thus have the opposite of the intended effect. Maybe some kind of reminder timer or organizer could be attached to the notifications with a customizable message, such as "Time to do your homework/laundry/piano practice" to help editors who get caught up in a particularly interesting article or discussion thread and forget that there is no deadline. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Searching on "web countdown timer" turns up a number of timers that editors can use, if they desire. I'd be a bit wary of suggesting to editors I don't know that they use a timer, but perhaps as part of a "break time" page, there could be links to some timers, along with pointers to interesting diversions. isaacl (talk) 18:48, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd love to see such a "break time" page, particularly if at least some of the things it indicated might be useful later here. Like I said before, I know of many, many PD reference sources which contain a lot of material which could easily be included here later, particularly older smaller articles in biographical dictionaries. Such activities would both give people something to do in the short run while also providing a reason to possibly return to the encyclopedia at some point in the future, in that case to add or develop articles here relating to the sources they have reviewed elsewhere. John Carter (talk) 19:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
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