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Icky question restored

Hi, I just restored this question about ejaculate , which had been deleted by User:KTC - diff . I've never seen that user post on these desks, and there was no explanation other than WP:DENY - now, I'll be first to admit many people will find this question gross. But as I stated clearly in the thread, WP:AGF and WP:NOTCENSORED apply. It is a perfectly reasonable question that can be addressed with references. I know, because I did spend a few minutes finding information resources and other fora where the user could ask questions. So please discuss here before interfering with the post. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The section wasn't removed by me due to the nature of the question. It was removed because it was posted by a known block evading troll on a return visit. Please don't feed the troll by restoring the section. Thanks -- KTC (talk) 15:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

A self admitted block evader no less, who then returned to trout me under a different IP address after I blocked him (in retaliation of my blocked another reference desk trolling IP). Also if you look at the user's history, he posted the exact same question on 24 December. In both instances he says his partner's birthday was on the 29th (of December in one case and January in the other case). This is nothing other than a case of trolling the reference desk. --kelapstick 15:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, I'm glad you didn't delete it because of content. I don't know how you can be so sure you know who this IP user is. What am I supposed to see in your second link? Some others have removed a similar question in the past? If I had noticed the removal or if anyone had removed my responses, I would have done the same thing (restore, post here to discuss) Even if you think this person has a history of causing other problems elsewhere on WP, I saw no problem with this question. I know some people here are into vengeance and grudges, but I like to treat each question on its own merits. And I stand by my claim that this question, on it's own, is fine. I certainly won't do sleuth work on every IP question before I answer it, and I don't appreciate my contributions being deleted without any notice or explanation at the time. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is how it went down:

• I blocked 82.19.76.217 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) was blocked (I found it at AIV I think)
• 208.84.191.249 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) came back and trouted me because I blocked 82.19.76.217 (I know they are the same person because the only other IP I blocked that day was K-pop related). I blocked this user for admitting to block evasion.
• 121.141.19.11 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) came back with the same message, KTC blocked.

--kelapstick 16:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• Three wildly different IP locations, so presumably using an open proxy or some such. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:14, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• And being as how the troll will have plenty of free time (among other things) on his hands, he could do some experiments and report back to the eagerly waiting masses. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Worth remembering as per the previous discussion on this page Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 111#Protection, the last time the OP tried to post this question, they were so desperate to keep it up they used more than 10 or so different IPs from different geographical locations and ended up getting the Science desk briefly semi protected. And for whatever reason, the question was also removed from 4chan, the other place it was posted. I have no real care about this question and whether it stays or goes, but I find it hard to AGF about an editor who has used probably 15 very different IPs to post the question, and mocked people who blocked them. (And if these aren't actually the same person, that raised a more significant issue since we can't be sure any of them are the copyright holder.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

This is the type of question the long-ago-banned user Light Current used to pose, mostly for the purpose of finding a sucker who would take the bait and foment an argument. Like now. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:28, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

May be but IIRC Lightcurrent used to use UK IPs not either US or South Korean ones. It could be all of these are just unconnected to the ISP. But I don't think people wanting to post such question (for insincere reasons) is particularly hard to find so it's a very fussy match. More to the point, I think the LC (or anyone in particular) link is risks detracting from the issue. Whether or not we link them to any specific long term problem editor, someone who posts a question (the question under discussion) under 10 different IPs 14 different times, gets the RDS protected and boasts and mocks admins blocking them, doesn't need to be linked to anyone but themselves to be seen as a problem editor. Nil Einne (talk) 16:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

(EC) (first 3 same IP 208.84.191.249, as with the IP they used to post this, LazerNet in Illinois, US), CMC Telecom Infrastructure Company Vietnamese, Bredbandsbolaget AB Swedish, (same Swedish IP), LG Powercomm South Korean, Seokyung Cable Television Co..LTD. another South Korean, Cox Communications in New Orleans, US, LG Powercomm again but different IP from previous, Korea Telecom South Korean as you may expect, Another Korea Telecom IP, A third Korea Telecom IP, this one geolocates away from Seoul, no idea if it's accurate but the range is fairly different from the earlier 2 so it could be. So it seems that the number was slightly wrong, all up including the above 3 (remembering 1 is a duplicate), I count 12 IPs but I realise only the duplicate was used to actually post the question so it's really only 10 (but the number of times is 14). Also it sounds like it isn't quite as diverse as I thought, there's a few oddballs (noting that one of the above is Virgin Media in the UK and the other is yet another Korea Telecom), but mostly it's Korean. But the consistent IP from both December and now seems to be a US one. It could be this is their main IP for their ISp, or maybe it's just a proxy or something they have regular access to. (Similar the prepoderance of Korean IPs could indicate they are in Korea instead, or it could be simply that they have a personal interest or connection to Korea so have an easy way to use proxies or whatever from there.) Anyway none of this changes my opinion, if anything it reenforces it. It's hard to AGF about someone who's so desperate to post their question that many times. And I'm not sure this is the only two serious of times they posted it, I don't pay attention to those sort of things. Nil Einne (talk) 16:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Revert, block, ignore. Chillum 16:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

That's what was attempted, but the user at the top of this thread decided feeding the troll was more important than applying good sense. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

My good sense is to not let questions be censored because of sexual content (or anything else that amounts to "I don't like this so I will delete it"). It turns out I was wrong about the motivation for closing, but that was the only rationale I could infer at the time. I believe strongly in WP:NOTCENSORED, and will happily defend it whenever I can. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

My good sense is that when the edit summary says WP:DENY, you should leave it alone. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I am aware of that. That was a simple misunderstanding that has been cleared up now. Chillum 16:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Really? Is that section gone from that ref desk page? And if not, is there now consensus to zap it? And another key question: Is the original user banned or merely blocked? Because if he's banned, the question is subject to removal, regardless of any arguments about its alleged quality. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:36, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

No need to be snarky. The OP has recognized why it was removed above, I have now removed the section. Chillum 16:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Bravo. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:43, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you know if the sockmaster is banned? Because if so, it will make things easier to deal with in the future. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:45, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

And as regards getting "annoyed at banned people posting", maybe you're not aware that a couple of years ago, some of us stuck our necks out to support getting Light Current unbanned. He was told what he needed to do, and at first seemed interested, then basically told us all "F.U." And you wonder why my assumption of good faith doesn't always extend very far. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:51, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I remember Light Current getting banned, why anyone would want to unban him is beyond me. Chillum 16:55, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

For years the guy was trying to post here. I thought maybe he resented having been banned, that in his mind the ban was unfair; and that some kindness toward him might change his tune. He played us for saps. That's what happens sometimes when you assume good faith. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

This entire discussion could have been avoided if this revision had a useful comment.

It's unreasonable to remove content with no explanation and expect people to simply accept the removal without question. APL (talk) 17:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Were you intending to post a diff? What you posted is the difference between two versions that are more than a day apart. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

You are correct. I meant this revision .

APL (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

That's still not a diff. Maybe you could indicate the date-and-time stamp? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Answering a simple question with references isn't feeding the trolls; us obsessing over them in a public space is what they seem to like. I just didn't like my work being deleted, when I spent the time to research information on a question that many people seem to have. I almost want to post a similar question myself and answer it for posterity, but I suppose that would be WP:pointy.

I won't revert the recent re-removal, but I really think you are all overestimating any negative impacts of allowing that kind of thing to quietly float by, regardless of who posted it.

Whatever, maybe you're not overestimating the down sides - I'm sure we are now safe from the ravages this desk would have suffered from that question and my answer being left alone. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The "many people" are apparently all the same guy. I recommend a little less faith in drive-bys and a little more faith in the judgment of seasoned admins. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Look around Bugs, the amount, flavor, texture, and other properties of ejaculate (and where it is placed) are discussed all over the place in the magazine world, from Cosmo to Men's Health , let alone various internet fora. That's immaterial to the discussion here, but when you criticize my motives and judgment, I must admit it encourages me to tell you when you're wrong. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I see it was you yourself that titled this "Icky". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep, Gokkun is kind of icky, IMO. So is the oil industry, and biodiversity loss, and murder, and many other topics. Yet I still answer questions about these and many other things, almost always with references. Try it out and you might get less flack yourself. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

What's icky about gokkun? (Serious question, as it doesn't seem icky to me.) RomanSpa (talk) 19:30, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Gokkun's not icky and the repeated trolling by a banned user should be honored like gold coin, but RomanSpa wants regular contributors ostracized? See "How to Encourage a Regular Reference Desk Contributor to Stop Contributing?" Time to archive this entire page as endless chafing climaxless masturbation. μηδείς (talk) 20:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's kind of the point, any "ick factor" or "grossness" is not a reason to censor WP it's just too highly subjective. And it's not as though I find it completely repulsive, I did after all have enough interest to spend a few minutes and provide several references. :) I can't give you a rational reason, this kind of thing isn't really rational. I just personally find the idea of filling a large jar with semen for the purposes of ingestion to be a bit off-putting, but hey, I'm sure there's some things I like that would be off-putting to others as well. I shouldn't have put "Icky" in the title here though, as it was based on my misunderstanding of the reason the thread was deleted. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Sex in general is kind of "icky", or maybe I should say "messy"; and I would further say that if it isn't, "You're not doing it right." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:37, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

In general I agree. While I'm not opposed to deleting comments by blocked users, everyone needs to understand and believe that deleting them in a way that causes misunderstanding or controversy is feeding the trolls ten times harder than just answering the question in a straightforward and drama-free manner. APL (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes. If you do the right thing for the right reasons (deleting a question by a banned user) but fail to properly communicate to others why you're deleting it, you're just opening up the possibility of a whole mess of trouble, as per above. It's worse than just ignoring it. But this was cleared up very early in the thread, so what the rest of it was all about is beyond me. The trolls are happy, though. -- Jack of Oz 18:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment on Deletion

On the one hand, I agree that policy does permit deleting of posts by banned users. However, I also agree, and think that it is more important to remember, that in general at the Reference Desk it is better either to ignore posts from banned users or to answer them in spite of being from banned users. We waste a lot of pixels at this Reference Desk talk page talking about various sorts of questionable behavior by posters that can either be better ignored or better answered and left alone. Posts asking for medical or legal advice are a special case, because they should be either deleted or hatted. (I favor hatting, but deleting has its advocates.) Robert McClenon (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, agreed. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, no editor should ever be criticised for deleting a post by a banned user, no matter how innocuous it may appear. Otherwise, what's the point of banning someone in the first place? Sure, it's also open to editors to either answer such posts (if they're unaware the poster is banned) or ignore them (if they are aware). But if we don't support those who choose to delete posts by banned users, let's just tear up the banning protocols. Equally, as I said above, deletion, where it's warranted, must be accompanied by clear information about why the deletion is occurring. -- Jack of Oz 20:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed w/JoA and others above: summarily deleting posts by banned users is long-time practice; the only problem here was the deletor should have said (WP:DENY) post of banned user. If you look at the discussion of the ref desk at Kiel457's current entry at ANI, you'll see incredulous remarks by admins about why his BS isn't simply deleted on sight, and 457 isn't even a banned user. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't always know that an IP is a sockpuppet of a banned editor. If we only guess that the IP is a sock, it may be easier to ignore or respond to the question than to delete it. No one can be criticized for deleting a post by a known banned editor, but sometimes it causes more controversy to delete it, and sometimes the controversy is really what the banned troll wants. Anyway, sometimes the IP is really just an unregistered editor, not a banned troll. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but in this case it was a verbatim repost of the same question that had been deleted last year, leading to a semi-protection of the page, the diff for which was given higher in this thread, if not at the time of most recent deletion. If we've got IP's going through the archives to find deleted posts by disruptive users to repost them, they should be summarily treated as disruptive vandals. μηδείς (talk) 01:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

JackOfOz's statement is only true if the deletion can be done quickly before much discussion has happened, but also making it clear what has been done, with no doubts as to the identity of the banned user. If those conditions can't be met, deleting causes more problems than it solves. I don't see the point of keeping some philosophical ideal of how to enforce a ban if, in the process, you cause the very problem a ban is supposed to prevent!

I keep harping on this because, if I recall correctly, in the past it has sometimes been done so poorly that it started to strain AGF to assume that the deleter themselves wasn't bored and trying to stir up some drama and an excuse to post a diatribe on the importance of enforcing bans.

It would be nice if we could come at least come to an agreement that it is possible to delete a banned user's post in such a way that it would have been better if you hadn't. APL (talk) 22:10, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

There appear to be some editors who don't get that point, who actually think that deletion of a banned user's post is always a good idea, or maybe even a moral obligation, rather than merely permitted. I agree that there are times that the deletion of posts by banned users is counter-productive, and that the controversy about the deletion may even be what the banned troll wanted. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The rules say that edits by a banned user are subject to deletion, and such reversions are exempt from the 3-revert rule. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I am aware that edits by banned users are subject to deletion and that such deletions are exempt from 3RR. That doesn't mean that deleting them is always wise or always the way to avoid drama, and it doesn't mean that deleting them is a moral obligation. I agree with User;APL that sometimes it is possible to delete a banned user's posts in such a way that ignoring them would have been better. Also, it isn't always obvious that an IP address is a banned user. Sometimes an IP address is simply an unregistered editor. I assume that BB is not saying that deleting posts from banned users is a moral obligation. If the user was banned for being a troll, the drama associated with the deletion may be exactly what the troll wants. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Point-of-order: people arguing over the deletion is what feeds the troll. If we just let people delete the really egregious stuff and started no discussions about it, and raised no objections over it, we'd have no drama, and no feeding of trolls. I usually argue against deletion of the borderline stuff, but this was a beyond-the-pale obvious trolling question, by a self-admitted troll, and should have been deleted without comment or discussion. If we did that (while leaving alone the good faith stuff) we'd be feeding no one. --Jayron32 03:11, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Jayron32 here. As I said above, the question was posted by 14 different times by 10 different IPs. It was reverted by I think 6 or more different editors. It was discussed before indirectly (due to the protection). It was deleted from 4chan. The was nothing wrong with deleting this question, nor the way it was done.

The reality is, there's little way to predict when someone will blow up a deletion into something way more than it ever has to be, other than the presence of responses by some people (but many people also don't care). So either we don't delete anything at all, or at least don't delete anything with responses at all, or we recognise this sort of crap is going to happen no matter how obvious the deletion was.

I didn't want to say this directly before even if I hinted at it. But I since this has continued I will say it now. It was not the deletion that was poorly handled but the undeletion. No attempt was made to contact the person who deleted the question privately to find out why it was done. And even if you don't want to check the history of a very suspicious question before responding, it surely makes sense to check the history after it was deleted if you're planning to revert the deletion. In this case, a simple check of the IP the editor used to post the question, which was autosigned by sinebot, would have shown that not only did the IP try to post it 3 times at the end of the last year, but that they were openly boasting about block evading and mocking someone who blocked them before they tried to post the question again.

As I said above, I don't actually care a great deal about whether this question stays or goes, and it's quite likely this long discussion has fed the troll more than the question ever did, but it's ridiculous to fault the deleters of such obvious trolling when they made no fault. Note also that it's not like this was a deletion coming a long time later. Although there were responses, it was deleted 29 minutes after it was posted.

BTW let me repeat one more time for ultra clarity. Discussion surrounding whether this user is a known banned user is largely missing the point. Regardless of whether the question should have been deleted the first time it was posted, once the editor tried posting it 14 different times with 10 different IPs, getting the desk protected once, and started openly mocking people who blocked them and boasting they were block evading (regardless of whether at the same time they were claiming it was a sincere question) any possibily of this being in good faith went out the window and this all happened before the latest instance of the question. If you don't want to check such stuff before responding, that's completely up to you, but you should check such stuff before you make a big deal about a perfectly acceptable deletion done less than 30 minutes after the question was posted.

Some people may say I shouldn't just leave this be if I don't want it to be a big deal, but I only responded once it became clear people weren't willing to accept that no mistake was made in deletion instead only the undeletion , and only responded further (i.e. this post) once it became clear this still was the case. This was and should have been a simple, uncontroversial deletion and if people are going to continue to imply that shouldn't have been the case, I'm not going to sit idly by. Sure mistakes have been made in the past with deletions, and it's fine to challenge those cases. But this was not such a case and so it just silly to try and use it as an example of such a case.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

To you and Jayron, I'll clarify again that I did not see this as "beyond the pale" or obvious trolling. If anything, I saw it as an obvious candidate for wrongful removal based on content. I now regret not looking in to the matter further before undeleting. I did notify KTC on his talk page, and I see now that I should have waited for a response from him before undeleting. I also did skim the edit history, but I confess my skills are poor at that, I had a hard time making sense of who did what,when, and why. I guess I was too BOLD. So I'm sorry to all that I started this - my only motivation was to prevent what I thought was content-based censorship. But I make no apologies for answering the question without prior execution of an investigation of the history of the IP user. To ask that of volunteers is way over the line to paranoia, in my opinion. This is the first time I've undeleted anything, and I'll probably never do it again. I'll also probably never hat or delete any questions, but I will continue to defend WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:AGF at the ref desks. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

And for clarification for you, again... Look, you do good work here, but in this case you messed up. When the edit summary says WP:DENY, you should LEAVE IT BE. You can send an e-mail to the one who did it if you like, but you should do your level best to keep such discussions out of sight of the troll. You need to trust the instincts/experience of the one who posted the WP:DENY. Too late for this one, as the troll is probably popping Alka-Seltzer by now. Just keep this in mind for the future. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry about it SemanticMantis, apart from the fact that it's her not his, as clearly stated on my user page. :-) -- KTC (talk) 14:47, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

@KTC: Thanks. And dangit, I almost never use male as default, and I make it a point to use a mix of pronouns in general examples. And the one time I slip up I get it wrong, even though that's statistically less likely on WP. Won't happen again :) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Drama reputation

One issue I see here is the repeated jump from the RD itself to the talk page (and sometimes to the AN or ANI drama boards). You guys need to learn how to moderate your own behaviour. Stop running here to discuss the behaviour of obvious trolls, or just move on from threads that some of you dislike rather than feeling obliged to comment on them and get all up tight and hissy. The main reason the Reference Desk is going downhill fast is the over-reactionary behaviour of some of those who think they are contributing. Simple advice: improve the encyclopaedia with your edits. If your edits don't do that, don't post them. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I mostly agree. But at the same time, I felt it was polite to inform the user that I was undoing a delete, and I think any of us should inform other registered users if their contributions are being deleted. As for useful contributions, I'm sure you do a lot on the mainspace, but I haven't seen you help here in quite a while. In fact, I've only seen you tell us that we're doing it wrong, here on the talk page. What's that phrase about pots and kettles? I do think your contributions to the ref desk would be a valuable help to our mission. But I don't see much help, only criticism, in your comments here on the talk page. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I tend to comment only on questions I have answers for, and try to reference them or link them to the Misplaced Pages. I don't tend to indulge in speculating on every question on every board that comes up. Nor do I give any time to the seemingly endless trolling that goes on here. Ignoring and moving on is the only way ahead. WP:RBI is a good use of this maxim. Don't feed the trolls by continually racking up pointless discussion after pointless discussion here. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, The Rambling Man, you too often seem to be the "obvious troll" here (,, , , , ) dragging us into "pointless discussion after pointless discussion", so I'm not so sure how keen any single other person who contributes around here is to take their ques from you, even if what you are saying is something as non-controversial as "don't feed the trolls". And who are you to be judging anyone for the contributions here or for their propensity to favour the talk pages? Here are your talk page contributions (note there's multiple pages), which are more numerous than all of your posts on all the desks put together (, , , , ). Like SM says, I've never seen the help and valuable contributions you allude to. I see you have a handful of posts to the desks, but I've never seen one. But I've seen plenty of you here, where your participation is generally corrosive and unerringly antagonistic. As indeed it is everywhere I've ever seen you contribute on the project. You think ANI is a drama boards? I'm not surprised since your name features in the titles of threads there so often. Myself, I've always found it a refreshingly above-board space and find (other than the parties with behavioural problems who are main reason for ANI) most participants are experienced editors who keep their observations on point. But we clearly have different perspectives.

But you know what I'm really tired of hearing from you -- here, at ANI and anywhere anyone ever disagrees with you? About how other people aren't contributing significantly to the project -- this comment, constantly without ever qualifying it beyond that vague, arrogant, and (dare-I-say-it) utterly undeserved presumption you seem to be making every time you say it that you're somehow a paragon on this project and that if we would just imitate your "efficient", "non-nonsense" attitude, this place would be so much better. I'm sorry TRM, but just because another editor hasn't devoted themselves with zeal to getting 160+ articles on an annual Oxford v. Cambridge rowing race to FA status does not mean that they are not contributing to project in ways that equal or better your own, especially when the balance of all the community attention your run-ins with other editors necessitate are factored in. So if you want to talk about valid contribution so much, do us a favour and post a couple of (non-mocking/condescending/critical) contributions to the Ref Desks before you (without doubt) show up here again on this talk page in a month to tell us all again how crap we are at what we do. I'm serious, that "they should try using their time to actually improve the encyclopedia" comment is not something any experienced, mature or civil editor should ever be using to address another, and you do it constantly. Stop, please.

And as you don't really contribute in this space (and indeed only ever show up here to show contempt for it; show me a diff proving otherwise if you're going to say I'm lying here), and seeing as you've just ended your ninth (or is it tenth?) bout of ANI with Medeis, don't you think you ought to be decreasing rather than increasing the spaces that you share with her? Suddenly here you are talking about "The over-reactionary behaviour of some of those who think they are contributing" on a discussion page where her behaviour is being question with regard to just the behaviour you are describing. I'm not saying it's a screaming violation of your IBAN, by why are you even courting the drama? If you're all about the practical contributions, can't you find some other place to be useful than this discussion space, for an area of the project you disdain where multiple people you have IBANs with contribute on a daily basis? Can't you please just keep your distance from them? Snow talk 12:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Briefly, you just don't get it. But worse, it's now turning into some kind of "wall of text stalker obsession". You're chasing me around Misplaced Pages to bloat pages way beyond readability and it needs to stop. Can't you please stop now? You're not achieving anything and worse, you're wasting a lot of time for a lot of people who may try to get to the point of your text carnival. Do stop. Limits Snow Rise, limits. Pay heed to your own cries. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not "stalking" you anywhere. Clearly. I came here (where I actually contribute in the project space, not just posting critical -- and probably, once again, WP:Hounding -- messages here for no practical gain) in order to bring another matter to the attention of my fellow collaborators in this space. I'm a regular here. This is where I encountered you for the first time two months go, doing the same exact thing -- and the only other spaces on this project I have ever encountered you in are at ANI, in issues related to your behaviour on this page and your ongoing disruptive exchanges with Medeis and Bugs, and on my talk page (where you initiated contact with me). So, for the umpteenth time, you need to STOP with these incessant accusations of harassment; you have been told many, many times that they are personal attacks when they don't fit the facts and you have no diffs to support them.

Please be aware that your presence here, apparently for non-productive purposes, has already been referred to an administrator, who has already confirmed that you presence and acivity is a clear violation of your IBAN. Note also that your response here (in the form of unfounded and disruptive accusations of harassment) were also anticipated, as it runs like a script, every time you blow into a discussion, stir things up for no good reason and then play the victim when just asked to back off and keep a distance from certain people. In any event, now that you've forced me to raise this fact here (which I had really hoped to avoid), I hope you are pleased that you've once again set yourself, Medeis, and everyone else in your general environs on a collusion course with ANI for a tenth time. Please listen to me, try to trust my instinct on this -- you're pushing the breaking point of the community this time. It will go to ArbCom. Please do the right thing for everyone and abandon these long-distance broadsides at people you are meant to be staying away from as a condition of your continued involvement on this project. Read that post again. It's not a wall of text, it's a wall of links, an attempt to hold up a mirror for you concerning your behaviour here while you still have time to take advantage of it.

You're not helping in this space, and you're clearly not here to help. Please go away for as long as that is the case. If you sincerely want to contribute here, please add content to the main page -- the very advice you are always giving to others when you want to be dismissive of them. But if you continue here in this manner, someone will take this to ANI. And everyone is sick of seeing your name there all the time, dude. It won't just blow over this time. And the people who perform the oversight you're headed towards have all the tools, experience and mandate they need to filter through your blame-shifting and victim-playing in response to the trail of incivility and disruption you leave in your wake. That's all I have left to say on this matter. Snow talk 06:34, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

This is all in response to a post by SemanticMantis, quite how you fabricate that to be a violation of this IBAN I know not. But I'm sure you can magic something up with your walls of text. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:04, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not the one who made that assessment -- an admin did. The admin who last blocked you for this exact same behaviour a month ago, as a matter of fact. He says your participation here, in this manner, is an "obvious violation" of your IBAN. You clearly won't listen to any of the rest of us here who are trying to tell you the same things, but will you at least accept an administrator's assessment that you are in violation of your ban and leave this topic be? Snow talk 09:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't really understand your involvement or Laser Brain's assessment. I started this thread in relation to something being discussed between SemanticMantis and KTC which was symptomatic of an ongoing "feed the trolls" issue that only seems prevalent here. I'm by no means alone, see comments from Tevildo a few threads below here. And it's by no means the "exact same behaviour" either. I was blocked for edit warring with another person involved in the IBAN. And while I'm here one last time, you should note that despite being unblocked early, I sat out the block without editing other than my talkpage. Everyone has conveniently overlooked that. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:22, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

And some minor points of information (in reference to just one or two mega-posts you've made today alone): besides you, where are these " run-ins with other editors"? Or are you simply referring to debate and discussion? "Stop, please." you've been asked the same - some of your posts are GA in quantity, just lacking in quality. Do us all a favour and use your verbiage in improving Misplaced Pages rather than the meandering verbose rants. "and seeing as you've just ended your ninth (or is it tenth?) bout of ANI" - how many were actually concluded against me? How many were blatantly incorrect? "you have been told many, many times that they are personal attacks" yes, usually by you with no justification and no basis in reality. "Please listen to me" it's impossible, you use a thousand words where twenty will do. Learn from this. And after all, you jumped on the bandwagon of continuing a dispute on Misplaced Pages where it was compared to the behaviour of a rape victim. Just tonight we lost a great content contributor for the very same reason, and that's appalling. "And everyone is sick of seeing your name there all the time, dude." Actually, most people seem to be sick of someone else dragging my name there without justification and more sick of seeing your walls of text. Move on. Everyone has asked you nicely to do that, so time to do it. Alternatively continue your quest to see me removed from Misplaced Pages, but at least play nicely. And honestly. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, the difference between my posts and yours, TRM (as can be seen above) is not so much length as it the fact that I provide evidence, in the form of diffs, of your continuing, unabaiting incivility and disruption. You cannot do that with me, because (much as you like to cry "TLDR", my posts contain to every hebavioural policy we have. You want to paint me as over-reactionary and on some sort of quest to stop you. But believe you me, I'm always more than happy to not even be aware of you. It's only because you came back to this space to once again harass Medeis through indirect means (and just generally disrupt this space just so you could hear your own voice) that I've commented at all. And any improper behaviour I implied, I backed up by demonstrating exactly what event I am reffering to with diffs. That's why my posts with you have to be so long, because you are a bull in a china kitchen, and in order for my observations of your inapprorpiate bheaviour to be above board, I have to be clear about what I mean.

You, on the other hand, as you do with everyone who is critical of you, have once again made general unsavory accusations and failed to provide a shred of proof. You do it so reflexively and obviously, that there's such a mountain of it, that it's going to bury you if you land yourself at arbcom. I first encountered you about a month and a half ago, and my entire experience of you was about a half dozen times asking you to just be a bit more civil and stop making bold accusations you didn't have proof of (sound familiar?) towards other editors here. That's it. A half dozen posts, maybe? On one talk page (this page). When your conflict with Medeis and your bahaviour here took you to ANI (this is third most recent of your ANI's int he last six weeks...), I went to ANI and posted one comment. At this point your accusation was..."Snow has used various venues to berate me and my approach to trying to improve the Ref Desk". How is that anything but an outright lie, sir? You do this with everyone, and it's not as subtle as you seem to think. Or maybe you lose track of your accusations conspiracy ((), even when talking to admins who are trying to mediate matters: mostly without doing so. And mind you, those barely suffice to scratch the surface in this area.

So, by all means, try to use my "verbosity" against me. You're only leaving more evidence of your willingness to distort the truth. But one thing I am not sitting on my hands about anymore is your WP:personal attacks. I'm done with that. If you make another accusation against me of impropriety or dishonesty, without providing a diff, I'm taking the matter to an admin that actually cares, or ANI. I am especially not amused with one accusation you've made twice now (which is very much two times more than you are remotely entitled to). Not only did I not jump on Medeis' "comapare you to a rapist", I am the only person in that discussion who took a moment to tell Medeis she was being hyperbolic and then used Medeis' own allusion to reflect on her own disruption. I'm the only person who did that, and now you try to use it against me by wording your comments in such a way as to suggest I was supporting her? I tried to make this clear to you before sir that this is not a topic I take likely, and your accusation here is more than even your usual personal attack stash.

So you tell me now whether you are done with this line of discussion or whether I need to bring further administrative attention to this, since Laser Brain clearly feels you are here for improper reasons and yet won't touch your case with a ten foot pole. Because I don't intend to discuss another of your personal attacks with you directly again; administration will be the conduit of that discussion. And I'm sorry that you can't see where this path ends for you, but I no longer believe you can be convinced or reasoned with in this regard. Frankly, I have doubts about your social competency with regard to this project, especially in the position you have been raised to as an admin, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. But it's not my job to try to keep you honest or civil. That's why we have admins, ANI, and ArbCom. Admins have already warned and blocked you, ANI has sanctioned you with bans and seen you just two weeks ago (for the third time in seven weeks). You decide where we go from here. Snow talk 06:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Look, it's very clear that neither of you is going to convince the other of anything, so why not just walk away from each other? —Steve Summit (talk) 12:53, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Steve, meaning this question honestly and not passive-aggressively, but are you aware of the history here? TRM has been going round and round with Medeis for ages now. He's had an IBAN in place for a year now with regard to both Medeis and Bugs and has three ANI's in the last month and a half alone concerning violations to such. The last one closed not two weeks ago, and now he's back here making comments that are clearly indirectly targeting Medeis. It's inappropriate, an admin has said it is a violation of his IBAN and he should not be involved here. Please don't embolden him by feeding into his position that anyone that calls him out for uncivil and disruptive behaviour can be considered to be "hassling" him. Whenever a bystander calls him out for trolling or insulting others, he instantly says whatever he has to (up to and including bald-faced lies) in order to paint them as someone out for his blood. In this way, he converts "concerned parties" into "involved parties" as cover for his actions. Seriously, follow the links above if you haven't yet, or plug his name into an ANI search. This has to stop. He shouldn't be here. He's not a regular contributor here, and Medeis and Bugs are. It's obviously against the spirit of his IBAN to be here at all, and against its outright wording to be commenting on a behaviour that Medeis is being examined for in this discussion, as a means applying insults to her (see "uptight and hissy" above) without actually saying her name. No one should have to convince him to follow the conditions of his community sanctions. Snow talk 15:05, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I am well aware of the history, and I am not out to embolden anyone. —Steve Summit (talk) 16:53, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't doubt for a second that your comment is a good-faith one. Nor would it be bad advice in the vast majority of cases. I just don't think it's going to have the effect you were going for. He's not in any sense having an issue with another editor just because they are asking him to abide by the terms of his IBAN, no matter how many times that party has to ask. Are you suggesting that we should just let him proceed with this disruptive behaviour? Because if someone else wants to relieve me of the tedious task of reminding him about the IBAN and the fact that he's once again been found in violation of it here until such time as he desists (and wishes to deal with his personal attacks as well, as a result) I will disengage with him gleefully and gratefully. But what I'm not prepared to do is just "get out of his way" so he can continue to do what he wishes in defiance of community wishes and to the detriment of this space. Snow talk 00:50, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The IBan is unfortunate, in my opinion, and it's definitely not the reference desk's problem (not just in my opinion). I don't believe anyone needs to relieve you of the task of reminding The Rambling Man of anything. He's a dedicated editor who adds a great and relevant deal to the encyclopedia (as in mainspace, articles) and beyond, and, though I'm not a fan of the way he phrases his critique of our desks (and I have pointed this out on WP:ANI, ugh), there is no need to engage him in prolonged debates when he chooses to remind us of why we are here. As far as I'm concerned (and as much as I really do appreciate your excellent contributions to the desk) you are relieved of this duty, without replacement. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

The IBAN is unfortunate, in that its nowhere near the ideal solution to be dealing with the TRM-Medeis feud. That being said, it remains the active community sanction that is in place to keep these two away from eachother. Your perception on his reason for being here notwithstanding, an admin has evaluated this involvement as a violation of that ban. Don't you think that under those circumstances that his disengaging from this discussion is the appropriate (if not outright mandated) thing for him to do? Aside from that, any editor here is entitled to challenge his personal attacks, which are never allowed under policy under any circumstances and which he should not be allowed to make with impunity.

~sigh~ But alright guys, I'll accede to your wishes on this, much as I think it's in clear conflict to broader community consensus with regard to his ban. It's true that there's little to be gained from talking to TRM, since he can't be convinced to voluntarily change his approach -- at least not until an admin becomes involved or Medeis or another party takes this back to ANI (which, in contrast to the previous case, she seems fairly entitled to here). But I'm definitely reserving the right to say "I told you so" when he shows up yet again in a couple of weeks to use this space as a means to pursue indirect harassment of Medeis (or Bugs, or who knows who). My usual disposition to give a problem editor as many chances to change course as possible not withstanding, I think you're both absolutely nuts to expect any change in behaviour here. Snow talk 04:09, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I find this posting most ironic. You make general, unsupported allegations about the Refdesk "going downhill" and people who "think they are contributing" and then advise us how to avoid drama? Wnt (talk) 01:53, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Posting here and on the drama boards is the opposite of WP:DENY. --Dweller (talk) 13:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet some of the regulars just can't see it, which is both no surprise and a great shame. I'll continue to urge people to focus on providing sourced answers and ignoring the trolls. If people don't like it, they should re-examine their purpose here. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:14, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. Mingmingla (talk) 03:22, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Does our prohibition on medical advise extend to veterinary questions?

I've responded to two requests from pet owners seeking advice in the last two days; one was purely a general request about diseases a given bread of cat may be predisposed to from a por-active new owner (to whom there was little to be said which he hadn't figured out himself already), while the other was a request for a diagnosis of an active and ongoing issue with a group of hamsters, to which I advised sanitation, isolation of the animals and a trip to the vet. But it did put me in a mind to discuss with everyone where the lines are with regard to this kind of advice. One the one hand, it is not, strictly speaking, medical advice, but on the other it seems to me that many of the same principles that are the cause for our moratorium on medical advice (the potential for doing much more harm than good and potential liability to the project) apply here and, furthermore, that veterinary issues within a given household can readily become medical issues and that (conceivably) bad advise here could bridge one to the other.

In the past I have been inclined to largely follow the same principles we use for medical advice for any inquiry about a serious health problem in an animal, though I have no problem giving general practical insight and advice when the question does not seem to reflect a specific case, as we do with medical subjects in many cases. I made an exception in going further in this most recent case because it seems those animals are in a bad way and I wanted to underscore that the OP should get them to a vet post-haste. Anyway, can I get some thoughts on where y'all think we stand on this? Snow talk 02:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

No one here is qualified to provide medical advice about humans or animals. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

It's never been a matter of qualification; we've had (and have) a number contributors here with medical and physiological credentials. It's an issue of limitations of the format, showing the necessary extreme caution as we are talking about the health of others, and taking into account liability for the project. I'm not disagreeing with you that we should probably avoid these topics as well -- I'm leaning in that direction myself -- but you seem to have misinterpreted why we don't provide medical advice in the first place, which is an important factor in analyzing whether the veterinary scenarios are consistent with the same concerns. We have people who could speak to both medical and veterinary inquiries (though unfortunately, we have a handful of othe editors who can't really speak to these issues as an expert but would certainly still be trying to, if not for the prohibition), so the question is not whether or not we could, but whether we should. Even if half of Ref Deskers were M.D.s, I'd argue the prohibition should stay simply as a matter of our context here. I'm inclined to extend that same principle to animals, except, I've never seen it explicitly come up here before. Snow talk 09:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Apparently enough that we have {{HD/Vet}}. --  Gadget850 10:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, good sleuthing, G. Can only find one incident in which it was invoked, four years back, but that's precedent enough to me. It just seems like best practice to follow the same principle with regard to animals. Within most contexts anyway; if someone comes on with a question about an orphaned bird, for example, I see no problem in giving them basic advice and pointing them in the direction of wildlife rehabilitation resources. But for larger domestic animals that are clearly pets or livestock, I think it's best just to assume the standard procedure. WP:Medical does not address the issue explicitly, I find, but surely the spirit of the position is still relevant in the area of many veterinary contexts. Snow talk 11:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

It should extend to veterinary questions etc ... to me it's always about not doing harm, even potentially (but, yes, to be interpreted within realistic but imaginitive reason), guidelines or no guidelines. See also a discussion from four and a half years ago: "Fungus on leaf, pimple on ass". ---Sluzzelin talk 11:19, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

As there is no specific prohibition on veterinary advice I have no desire to see one enacted routinely because it's 'kind of similar' because by that method of metastasis eventually everything will be banned. Feel free to answer questions without the usual hand-wringing. However, do remember that the Refdesk isn't about giving advice period, otherwise one might tell him to set a couple of heavy duty rat-traps in the cages with his biohazardous hamsters and quit asking us how to treat an abscess. :) We can only provide some information, the OP has to make the decisions. Wnt (talk) 15:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is how far do you take "doing no harm"? "Are dried peas edible? (Image at right)"..."Sure, those are pigeon peas and they are commonly dried and eaten in Malawi"...then you have a dead OP on your hands. (Cytisine poisoning...the 'peas' in the photo are Laburnum pods, not pigeon peas!). OK, so definitely we should have a rule about food idenitification. How about car repair? ("I have surface rust on some metal parts of my car, what should I do?" "Go ahead and put a thin layer of oil on the affected parts to exclude air and water"....fiery wreck as the OP's oily brake disks fail to stop his/her car.)

It's truly impossible to think of any question that we might answer that truly has no potential to do harm...and that's true whether a specific piece of information is in error - or even if it's dangerous if answered correctly ("How would someone go about hiring a hit-man? It's for a novel I'm writing!"...well, maybe it is!) If the rule was that we couldn't answer questions where an incorrect answer would have the potential to do harm, it would be tough to work with - and if we widen the net to include correct answers that could potentially do harm, we'd be unable to answer any questions whatever because we never know to what use that information might be put...so that absolutely cannot be the principle behind setting rules like "no medical advice" and "no legal advice".

So why have the medical and legal guidelines in the first place?

Simple - it's illegal to operate as a doctor or as a lawyer without a license in many (most?) parts of the world. When we set ourselves up as experts and start handing out medical advice, we're actually breaking the law in many cases. Ditto with legal advice. It's not illegal to incorrectly identify a plant - but that can be just as dangerous as advising someone to take an antacid for chest pain....the difference is that the latter is illegal but the former is not. That might also be true of veterinary advice - but I'm less sure of that. Kainaw's criterion is based on what doctors do...diagnosis, prognosis, treatment.

IMHO, the legal imperative is the only reasonable criterion upon which we can base these 'hard' restrictive rules...and I'm not sure whether veterinary advice comes under that banner or not - but I'd be very concerned about WP:CREEP here. Sure we can discuss whether telling someone how to find a hit man is really a good idea or not...but we do that on a case-by-case basis. But to give our OP's the impression that the advice we give has no potential for harm would be just asking for a law suite the first time it actually does cause harm...so we shouldn't make that guarantee by enshrining it as a principle into our rule making.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I was simply sharing how I approach answering or not answering. No one said anything about guarantees, and I did point out that potential harm might be imagined "within reason". I certainly don't wish to add to our guidelines and then have our police and hall monitors go berserk with enforcement. I recommend thinking before you hit save, that's all. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:31, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm mostly all in agreement with you, Steve. In most legal jurisdictions in the English-speaking world it's actually not illegal (in the criminal sense) to give medical or legal advice; you just have to be licensed to do it professionally, but clearly people give both kinds of advice to eachother all the time (and it's often incorrect or poor advice), But while it's not an issue with criminality, there are is certainly many issues with liability. That's the element that often gets left out when we talk about medical advice here, but I guarantee it's not something the WMF ever loses sight of, and why our options here are limited. That's the one major factor that I see as reasonable cause to prohibit certainly classes of question. The other is the issue Sluzzelin raised; the basic ethical obligation to be certain we are not risking doing considerable harm. Snow talk 17:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

THIS is fairly illuminating. It says that "In general, a person practices medicine when he or she tries to diagnose or cure an illness or injury, prescribes drugs, performs surgery, or claims he or she is a doctor.'"...so diagnosis is clearly a bad thing for us to be doing. Then, also: "...advice may be the practice of medicine when the advice is specific to a particular person's illness or injury. Magazines and websites that offer general tips for getting over the common cold, therefore, are not engaging in the practice of medicine." - so we clearly need to avoid doing at least those two things. In the state of Florida (where Misplaced Pages is housed, and the offense might be deemed to have occurred) "The penalty shall be a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000"...per incident. So my thinking is that we shouldn't be doing this! SteveBaker (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Obviously, that applies to practicing medicine as it applies to persons not animals. One is allowed to administer medical care to their animals, for instance under Florida law, . Thus, it's OK to seek advice and act upon it, yet a random guy giving such advice about a particular animal might not be exempt. -Modocc (talk) 19:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Most people here don't seem to understand WP:MEDICAL - it doesn't say that we should not give medical advice. It says that we can not - as in, it is literally impossible. Nothing we say can be legally construed as medical advice. So if I write "Sure, take 1000 aspirin to cure your headache" - that is not medical advice. The disclaimer is indemnifying. The reason we don't give medical advice here is for ethical reasons, not legal reasons. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Our guidelines prohibit professional advice and interpreted broadly that would have to include licensed professions such as veterinary advice, but it is just a guideline. I think on the whole though we are searching for a solution to a "problem" that doesn't appear to exist. --Modocc (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Our Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer, which trumps ref desk policy, says we don't give professional advice. In the US, veterinarians are licensed professionals. No, we should not be giving veterinary advice. (Consider also that many diseases pets suffer are communicable to humans, and that in the US, pharmacies fill prescriptions written by veterinarians for pets.) μηδείς (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

That is a red-herring, as SematicMantic already pointed out Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer is a disclaimer, in that nothing we write is professional advice and furthermore the page is not a wp:policy page. So our guideline is actually prohibiting that which we are not even able to offer. Which is why there isn't a problem because it is a guideline. --Modocc (talk) 22:55, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

It says "If you need specific advice (for example, medical, legal, financial or risk management) please seek a professional who is licensed or knowledgeable in that area." That is, in fact, the only acceptable response to someone seeking medical advice, be it for humans or animals. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:00, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I support the guideline, but it doesn't extend to slugs. --Modocc (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't know... If you pour salt on a slug, have you violated laws against cruelty to animals? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Unless you eat it afterward, you've violated the Hulk Code. Legislation was introduced in 2004 Britain to treat them fairly, but I don't think it stuck. Gardeners are among the most well-equipped to form Frankenstein mobs. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:12, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) See also our Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice, which says, inter alia:

• At the very least, responses should link to Misplaced Pages:Medical disclaimer
• Therefore medical advice must not be given by question-answerers,
• ...and should not be requested
• Any question that solicits a diagnosis, a prognosis, or a suggested treatment, or any answer that provides them, is considered inappropriate for the reference desk.

Contrary to Semantic's interpretation of the General Disclaimer, this is saying that it is possible to at least purport to give what sounds like medical advice. But that we MUST NOT do this. However, given that the Disclaimer protects us from legal repercussions of whatever advice may be (however inappropriately) given, these two things don't sit well together. It's like having a law that says "Thou must not murder anyone", but there's another legal mechanism that says "If you do murder anyone, you will be deemed not to have murdered anyone". We need to get this cleared up. Either it is possible to give medical advice (and whatever the consequences of that may be), or it is not possible. -- Jack of Oz 23:13, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

The disclaimer says, clearly, Not professional advice and goes on to say if you need it please go elsewhere. There is thus an important distinction to be made between professional advice and any advice which appears on this site. The guideline says we should must not give advice, but it is not policy. --Modocc (talk) 23:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

If it's not policy, what's the phrase "must not" doing there? There's a clear distinction between questioners, who should not request medical advice, and respondents, who must not provide any. Are you saying this is only a guideline and we're free to interpret it as we see fit, and in fact provide medical advice in some cases, in the confidence that if the OP takes the advice and dies, we're safe because of the General Disclaimer? Is that how this all works? -- Jack of Oz

The template at the top of the page says the page is a guideline. It's a good guideline too, but we have to use some commonsense about it. -Modocc (talk) 00:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

My point is that guidelines, by their nature, never require actions and never prohibit actions. That's what laws and rules and instructions do. Guidelines merely suggest ways of operating. If this is a guideline, why are we told we "must not" provide medical advice? At most, this should be a "should not". No? -- Jack of Oz 02:46, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Either way, we don't give medical advice. -Modocc (talk) 03:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

See, what I like to strive towards is getting the picture in people's heads be the same as the picture described in the words we're supposed to be taking heed of. Currently, the two things are obviously quite different. -- Jack of Oz 03:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Your point has not escaped me, so with respect to it being obvious: must it be? Or should it be? maybe it's just obvious either way, but perhaps not, especially if the context suggests otherwise. Which is why we have an essay that demands that we DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. --Modocc (talk) 04:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

• Despite amateur legal advice such as SM's, posting a disclaimer while you continually violate the same disclaimer in no way "indemnifies" anyone. See, for example the tobacco settlement where tobacconists routinely posted government mandated disclaimers, yet were found negligible nevertheless. Saying that we cannot give medical advice allows us to post medical advice because our disclaimer makes professional advice not professional advice is as twisted as a python consuming a triceratops. 23:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

We self-censor, but if someone's python chokes, it certainly wouldn't be because of professional advice. Misplaced Pages doesn't meet nor cannot meet its own standards of what constitutes a reliable source, which means we answer to whatever the Wikimedia Foundation requires of us. Our guidelines and policies can only help in this regard. -Modocc (talk) 00:24, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

If someone's python is choking, turning to Misplaced Pages for advice does not seem to be a very expedient approach. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I've already said this, but it is worth repeating: I think our guideline prohibiting medical and professional advice extends to veterinary advice (even if it does not do so explicitly). This would include applying Kainaw's criterion to most domestic pets and many wild animals too, but obviously not all, and even for borderline cases like the one Snow Rise addressed information that might be applicable is fine along with informing them to seek professional advice elsewhere because it's not the thing we do. -Modocc (talk) 02:49, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, precisely. The distinction I intend to work along is whether or not there is any (and I mean any) potential for harm in the recommendation made. So, for example, even though I know how to gently restrain many animals for examination or treatment, I'm not going to share that information, because if I flub the description or the OP misinterprets my instructions and they or the animal are harmed as a result, that's on me. On the other hand, if someone comes on talking about how their cat's foreleg is severely inflamed and asking if they should give the animal a Tylenol, I'm not going to hesitate to say "don't do that, it could easily kill them". Followed immediately by "Please consult with a vet immediately; your cat may have a puncture wound from fighting or a fracture from a fall, but there is no way of knowing with any reasonable certainty other than taking them in for a direct examination from a professional vet" -- they can then call a vet and decide between them whether a visit is warranted without any assessment taking place on our part.

Or maybe even something as neutral as "Do not give the cat tylenol, it is toxic to cats and may well kill yours. Please take your cat to a licensed veterinary professional or contact one and describe the symptoms if you are uncertain the situation requires that level of attention. My suspicion from your current description here is that they will heavily recommend a visit, but it is for you to decide with them; unfortunately, we are disallowed by policy to recommend advice in these matters -- nor could we offer the level of advice you require, nor should you rely too strongly on any diagnosis at a distance. I've made an exception here because I felt you should be immediately aware that Tylenol is to be avoided -- as indeed should be any kind of unguided medication. Time to bring in the pro." A little long-winded, but this is one situation in which explicit clarity is warranted, I daresay. Snow talk 07:41, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

On the same note, I also don't have a problem with preventative recommendations -- again, provided they are not going to do any harm. So with the recent hamster example, I'd no problem recommending that the OP isolate the fighters when she notices them going at it, nor the suggestion that she redouble effort to make sure the environs were as hygienic as possible, since there are no negative medical repercussions of this (just some sexually frustrated hamsters, which, on the scale of possible harm-done...is pretty far down there). But on the other hand, I wouldn't as a general rule say "Give them X or Y: it helps prevent against Z!" since even when it seems like innocuous nutritional advice, can be very problematic. And it's that line I think we need to guard against. Because unfortunately I am fairly certain that, without the firm mandate we have from the community and WMF on this, there are contributors here (not many, but a few) who would certainly cross that line all too often. Snow talk 08:25, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Others have said this, but it's important to remember that our RD rules against giving professional advice are indeed a voluntary form of self-censorship. We decline to give such advice because we do not want to risk harming someone by giving them bad advice. But the rules have very little (I would say nothing) to do with liability, or with laws against practicing medicine without a license. Giving medical advice to random strangers on the Internet does not constitute practicing medicine without a license, because you are not sitting in an office, wearing a white coat and a stethoscope, letting patients believe you're actually a doctor. Similarly, giving medical advice on one of the Reference Desks would not, in general, expose Misplaced Pages to any liability, precisely because of the Misplaced Pages General Disclaimer that people keep mentioning. (That disclaimer does not tell you, the poster, that you may not give professional advice. It tells the reader that anything you wrote and they read on Misplaced Pages is not professional advice. Huge difference.)

So, as it stands now, the Misplaced Pages General Disclaimer does not tell you that you may not post veterinary advice on the Reference Desks, and the laws against practicing Veterinary Medicine without a license do not tell you that you may not post veterinary advice on the Reference Desks, and the Reference Desk Guidelines do not tell you that you may not post veterinary advice on the Reference Desks. If -- as it's sounding like -- the consensus is that we should do not do so, we should mention it explicitly to the Guidelines. —Steve Summit (talk) 14:00, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes I see the Misplaced Pages rules as stopping people on the Reference desk giving advice with Misplaced Pages's weight that may cause real material harm or suffering, and they are prohibitions because people are just too eager to give such advice based on nothing more than their own experience or intuition. Dmcq (talk) 14:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see the liability issue in quite the same light as you, Steve; people do get sued all of the time for providing medical advice that leads to harm, and they needn't necessarily be presenting themselves as a healthcare professional in order to open themselves up to such a suit. And as even a single case could represent a substantial drain, I imagine the WMF would advise us to avoid these manner of contributions. All of that being said, in my opinion either argument (liability or commitment to seeing our contributions do not lead to harm) is sufficient in it's own right to mandate that we tread with extreme caution here. Actually, I feel a little guilty for wasting everyone's time here; the answer to my query seems obvious in retrospect, now that there's been feedback and I've had some time to think on the matter. Still, good to spell these things out explicitly, I suppose. Snow talk 23:59, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

We ought to come up with a mantra for those disturbed unreasonably by fears of malicious lawsuits because they gave some innocent bit of information. I suppose the following might be offensive to Muslims, who use the term more specifically, but others might try a phrase like I shall fear no terrorist theory of liability. Because I have insurance. Jihad is my insurance. Wnt (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

See that's rather the kind of comment and laissez-faire attitude that has me worried. I can see wiggle room to assist people in some contexts (I should hope so anyway, as physiology is a big part of my contributions here), but these are not non-issues and while you may view my stance as excessive hand-wringing, I view yours as overly dismissive and lacking in caution in a way that puts concern for the project's best interests as secondary to your personal own personal impulse and perspectives on this. Anyway, if you really want to follow this line of discussion to it's ultimate conclusion, it's entirely possible (and perhaps wise) to inquire about this matter with the WMF. Or indeed, this seems like just the type of issue that people are always taking to Jimbo's talk page for an opinion. Point being, I'm pretty sure that official position on this form of liability is not that it's non-existent and not to be treated dismissively. And I'm kind of concerned hearing this from you in particular Wnt because -- and meaning no offense to you broadly here, because you've made a great, great many useful contributions in this space and consider you an asset -- but lately, when it comes to people who go off half-cocked into speculation here, you might be second amongst the regulars only to StuRat. If editors here were allowed to answer requests for medical advice, and some of them treated that subject the way they do other empirical topics here )which some undoubtedly would), that absolutely would be dangerous. I don't mean disrespect, but I think your perspective is considerably way too far towards the permissive end of the spectrum on a situation which requires a more nuanced approach to stay on the right side of this important issue. Snow talk 03:23, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that, some years back, we did open a conversation with then WMF general counsel Mike Godwin on this very question. I'll try to find it in the archives. —Steve Summit (talk) 16:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Now that would be super handy! Snow talk 09:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's wrong to speculate when you label speculation as such, and I do believe I do that. The hope is that I or someone else will reflect on the speculative point and decide one way or the other. This is after all a place first and foremost for questions. Wnt (talk) 04:04, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose in part, but given that we're a part of Misplaced Pages, I've always felt it's best to answer questions in a similar way to how we add content; with abundant sourcing on established principles and little-to-no synthesis/original research. I do appreciate that this is more applicable and feasible with regard to some inquiries than it is to others, and that we sometimes need to make common-sense exceptions, but there are responses here sometimes from parties who answer questions here that they are clearly out-of-their-depth on and they just get so, so very wrong. I'm not talking about you so much in this context; from what I've observed, your speculation is usually within the premise of the questions you ask for input on here from time to time; and that's certainly much more appropriate than speculating on answers to questions which others can answer without speculation.

Let me be clear; we all take liberties in this regard sometimes to discuss some fascinating splinter aspect of a topic that has come up, or because the OP's question raised an intriguing scenario that begs for speculation. But sometimes people lose all sight of WP:NOTAFORUM and that principle, and the notion of verification, need to be a part of our responses here, even if our role is slightly different than that of any other area of the project. I don't care whether people source each post to the nines (I try to get multiple quality references or at least Wikilinks for most all responses I give here, even if the subject is old-hat or in some sense self-evident to me, but I don't jump on the case of those who adhere to lower self-imposed standards). I just want the answers to be sourceable as often as possible; that is, even if you don't provide the link, only provide information which you know is supported by references out there somewhere. If one cannot guarantee at least that, they probably should not be answering that particular question. I think our responses here deserve to benefit from the same strategies we to help establish dependable and practically useful content in mainspace. But as you say, perhaps the most important thing is that speculation be clearly identified as such, and I appreciate any editor who takes great care with this. Snow talk 04:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• Once again, I suggest that a few of you read what a disclaimer is. Whether it's the WP general disclaimer or the medical disclaimer disclaimers are not rules, regulations, or guidelines -- they are "intended to specify or delimit the scope of rights and obligations that may be exercised." So anyone who cites WP disclaimers to support what we should or shouldn't do here is rather confused. So let's please not confuse the issue citing disclaimers as rules, when they are not. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I mostly agree, but there is also a difference between citing the disclaimer as a rule or guideline and simply referring to it as Bugs did when deciding what policies or guidelines we may want to have in place. What Bugs said was fine, and in case I wasn't clear above in what I wrote I've added links above to the guideline. -Modocc (talk) 19:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Once again, SemanticMantis thinks a disclaimer is a magic formula that indemnifies one for doing exactly what one is in fact doing, contrary to the claims of the disclaimer. Perhaps we should advise drug dealers they are immune from arrest if they have a sign saying "I do not deal in illegal drugs" on their door? Disclaimers that are routinely willfully and consciously violated have no indemnificatory powers whatsoever. This thread would certainly be relevant in discovery at any civil suit against the WMF. μηδείς (talk) 20:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily disputing that, but I'd like to see an actual legal opinion to that effect. -- Jack of Oz 23:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Certainly disclaimers can be held to be invalid in accord with your concerns (for a drug dealer it would take only one instance of a violation). But since we don't give medical, legal, or professional advice this whole argument is somewhat pointless and moot, but I'll add my two-cents FWIW anyway. If inappropriate medical-related opinions are given anywhere on this site, the fact that anyone (even if IP-blocked or banned since they tend to come back like bad pennies) can contribute here means that no reasonable person can or should expect the standard of care required of professionals as well as the duty of care of a doctor-patient relationship under contract (actual or implied). Neither of these can be breached because they don't exist as such as our disclaimers simply make clear. -Modocc (talk) 23:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think the notion that we or WMF can be held legally accountable in some court for what is said here, goes hand in hand with the equally spurious notion that we are here to provide advice to all comers. We are not. We are here to provide references, which necessarily contain the words and in some cases opinions of external parties. We are simply the agents through which these references are transmitted to those in search of them. If people could just drop their ego-based self-importance about the role they play here, it would make life so much more simpler for all of us. -- Jack of Oz 00:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

my stuff keeps getting deleted

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What happens, why does it get deleted. Even when I ask why that gets deleted as well. Its as if asking a question isn't allowed lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.100.51 (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Your question asked for a medical opinion. We don't supply those. Ask a doctor. Dbfirs 22:38, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Just think about it.--Aspro (talk) 22:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

• The relevant question about pumping water from your anus out your mouth was here. Andy, Tevildo and I all deleted it after KageTora told the OP to ask a doctor. μηδείς (talk) 22:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

• Ignoring the ethics trolls a moment, note that ileocaecal valve, pylorus and esophageal sphincter all have purposes related to making sure traffic runs the normal way, plus there's peristalsis which usually but not invariably gets its direction right, and last but by no means least the colon itself has a function of absorbing fluid, while small intestine usually adds fluid but maybe if you disrupted that balance it would add less (I don't know about that part) Wnt (talk) 00:03, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
• *sighs* Folks, these things only work if we _delete_ the offending content and _don't_ have these endless post-mortems about it. It's what they want. I know I'm adding to the problem by posting this, but I thought we might have got it right for once - apparently not. So, the OP should see Klismaphilia and water cure, and we might as well invite WickWack (who I'm sure is reading this) to contribute to RD/S again. Tevildo (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Double standards question from WP:RDM

Moved the question here because it is about the operation of the Reference Desk, and not a question to be answered by references. Carry on please. --Jayron32 23:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, but with all things being supposedly equal, how come some one else gets to ask about ejaculating with his partner and drinking it, and the one about swallowing string. That's allowed andy q wasn't. Where do the double standards originate from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.100.51 (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

They don't. Notice that such questions are not on this page. If they were asked before, it would have been a mistake to answer them. Now, quit disrupting the board. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

The OP was advised of the above thread fifteen minutes before this one was created, there's no need for this to be in three places, and I have deleted the ref desk question. μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Deleting Questions

Earlier today I provided an answer to this question. I notice that the original questioner has now deleted both the question and my answer. Is this accepted practice, or should questions be left in place even if the original questioner changes their mind? (I wouldn't ask, except that my answer gave me an opportunity to toot my own trumpet in a small way, and I was vaguely interesting in finding out if other Reference Deskers had ever done anything similar! :-) ) RomanSpa (talk) 19:04, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

@RomanSpa: The OP didn't just up and delete the thread; he moved it from the Miscellaneous page to the Entertainment page. The thread (including your response and several later responses) can now be found there. Deor (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. RomanSpa (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Standard practice is to explain that the section was moved, and I have done so. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Borderline between legitimate questions and opinion/prediction

User:BenRG just made a point worth considering here: Some "What if ..." questions can be seen as questions for an opinion or prediction, and that question is a borderline case. It can lead to useless speculation, but it can also trigger interesting insights, as the questions on xkcd What If do. After Ben's reply, I felt like I was encouraging unwanted behavior, which was certainly not my intention. Should we rather encourage or discourage such borderline questions? — Sebastian 10:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

We generally try to handle these questions by referring to what thoughts, opinions, predictions other people (notable people, experts, journalists, scholars, authors, think-tanks) have published on the topic. We generally try not to give our own opinions or predictions, though there are certainly cases where someone's educated reasoning might be helpful. In my opinion the querent in your example was not asking for our personal predictions, but simply for predictions (or other thought experiments, and someone did in fact refer to an alternative history book on that very topic). I don't think querents need to be en-/discouraged one way or the other. What matters is how we respond to these questions (for example by holding back with our own opinions and pointing to what others have written instead). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

BenRG is technically correct, the question is a pure request for opinion and invitation to debate, and should be deleted. That being said, such deletions will be fought tooth and nail by the we don't need no stinking policies crowd here, so sometimes satire is a more realistic response. See the recent "how many admins lightbulb thread" and the most recent attempt to sanction Kiel457 which was recently responded to at ANI with "who cares?" and that the RD's are a lawless free-for-all. μηδείς (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I always think it's a bad idea to blame (and subsequently punish) the questioner. Many of our OP's are not sophisticated in their understanding. The issue (if there is one) is with the answers. If someone asks "Do you guys prefer butter to margarin?" - then this is clearly a request for opinion. So the more hot-headed amongst us are happy to start wielding the delete/hat tools to deal with this horrible invasion of our ivory tower. But IMHO, we should be taking the mindset of trying to help our customers...so we should ask ourselves: Does the OP really care what the literal opinions of a dozen or so random people on the Internet prefer - or is (s)he looking for some deeper insight but failing to formulate the right question? Clearly, this is really a request for the opinions of people in general - which we can answer by linking to surveys or market data for the sales of the two substances. We can provide a really useful answer rather than just rejecting someone who genuinely wanted information from us.

"What if?" questions can often also be fully answered by reference to the known laws of physics, chemistry or whatever. These are cases where the reference desk can shine. There is no way to find out from Misplaced Pages or a Google search what would happen if you launched your pet hamster in the nose cone of an Este rocket. (hmm...bad example: "It appears that about nine out of ten launches of live hamsters or mice end successfully. About every tenth launch, however, the passenger suffers serious injury or death due to a human error."...let's pretend I didn't find that!) But we can estimate g-forces, discuss the failure rate of rockets and the likely effect of dropping you hamster from 300 feet up in an aerodynamic nose cone, we can mention that the movement of the hamster inside the rocket will throw off the center of gravity and increase the odds of failure. Again, we can come up with a great answer in situations where interpretation of available data sources is required because no direct answers can be found. This is what reference desks are truly best at doing. Where a single source cannot produce an answer, we can find one from some devious combination of information from multiple places.

The other category of 'bad' questions are the truly bad - where the troll asks about some ridiculous property of semen or the import rules for some obscure kind of car into some obscure country for the 100th time in a month...or something similarly stupid. Here, I think we currently do exceptionally badly. The rule has to be "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS". That means don't answer the question. Don't post in response to it at all. Don't post a joke in response. Don't respond with accusations or threats. Don't discuss it here on the talk page. Don't debate the question. Don't hat the question. All of those things provide the attention that the troll craves. Just don't answer. If someone does answer, then a polite suggestion to the respondent's personal talk page that this is inappropriate behavior is far less likely to attract the glee of the troll than a protracted argument either here or in response to the question. If you must debate such things here, then keep the discussion generic - avoid mentioning the OP or the content of their question.

Not feeding trolls is the only known way of discouraging them.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Very well said on all points! Quite agree. —Steve Summit (talk) 15:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree too. On the last point, nature abhors a vacuum and so do many people on boards like this. They seem to think their job is to fill all possible gaps. The idea that someone could ask a question, no matter how absurdly inappropriate it may be, and not receive any response whatsoever, is anathema to them. Well, they should grit their teeth and learn something about the joys of not doing. The perfect response to those questions is to make the conscious decision to go and do the washing up, or masturbate, or read a book, or go for a walk, or get drunk, or write a new article, or anything except adding one jot or tittle to the thread. If they can't resist doing something with it, they can just delete it (with a meaningful but minimal edit summary). -- Jack of Oz 20:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

How can Misplaced Pages combat VPN trolls.

So say this lame guy starts tunneling his IP through numerous VPN's to disguise his identity what can you do. Is there any point even trying to block him. You'll end up blocked half the internet. As for protecting pages, doesn't that achieve what the troll wants in the first place, to disrupt the project? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.68.165 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 27 January 2015‎ {UTC}

It is incredibly unlikely that 'half the internet' would be blocked, as this would include billions of connections, and it is unlikely that anyone using a VPN network would tunnel through all of them just to write something here. Even the TOR network only tunnels through five or six PCs to get to its final destination. Blocking the IP would only block the IP of the final terminal that makes the connection. It would take hundreds, if not thousands of years, for the 'lame guy' to manage to get even a quarter of the entire internet blocked from Misplaced Pages, which, by human longevity standards, is pretty difficult. Would you like to rephrase your question (and sign it) in a more logical manner? KägeTorä - (_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why this question was moved here, although I'm not sure the misc. desk was the right place, either.

Suffice it to say that as a top-10 website that allows anyone to edit, Misplaced Pages sort of by definition knows about as much as can be known about combating this problem. Misplaced Pages has lots of tools for fighting vandalism, and simple IP blocking is among the coarsest and least preferred. —Steve Summit (talk) 01:49, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

For reference, we have some info at WP:VANDALISM, and more about specific tools at Misplaced Pages:Cleaning_up_vandalism/Tools. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Bowei Huang

It appears User:Bowei Huang is back as User:Xyconat. I've asked them to stop but I don't think there's much chance they'll comply Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities#America, Republic and Empire, Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities#World Government and Dictatorship. If anyone wants to do a WP:SPI, they're welcome. Nil Einne (talk) 13:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a good bet. I've reported Xyconat to ANI, although if a passing admin here happens to see this first, they could do the honors. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:38, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Removal of thread

Medeis (talk · contribs) removed a thread which was not a clear-cut violation or policy nor obvious trolling or attempt to offend reasonable sensibilities. Since it doesn't come to the standard of what is usually removed on sight, I have started this thread to see if there is a consensus to remove the post. I am officially neutral and only want to see that discussion occurs for situations which are not blatant, as this was. Discuss below, and if there is a clear consensus to remove after a reasonable amount of time, we can remove. --Jayron32 01:32, 1 February 2015 (UTC)