Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:53, 19 July 2006

Sikhism Unassessed

This article is part of WikiProject Sikhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Sikhism. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details on the projects. Guidelines: Manual of Style - Naming conventionsSikhismWikipedia:WikiProject SikhismTemplate:WikiProject SikhismSikhism ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Template:Featured article is only for Misplaced Pages:Featured articles. Template:Indian selected

Sikhism received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Template:0.5 nom

Archives
December 2002 – May 2006 May 2006 – June 2006 June 2006 – July 2006

Sikhism is a featured article

Well done everyone. Sikhism is now a featured article on the English Misplaced Pages! Now I'm trying to get it on the front page of Misplaced Pages. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Congrats to all those who worked on this! -- Sundar 07:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Congrats indeed ! Gurm 00:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Sindhis and Sikhism

Does anyone have any information on Sindhis and Sikhism? I've been reading how a large portion of the Hindu Sindhi population revered Guru Nanak and how Sikhism was quite prominent in the Sindh prior to partition. Any further expansion on this could be good for the article. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and here is an interesting article relating to Sikhism and Hinduism. Now this is sourced, so it could be a good way to begin to find information for a paragraph in the article: . Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No section on Sikhism & Hinduism as one?

Im trying to understand something....THeir are many people in the past up til even today who dont believe that the Gurus were trying to seperate Indians into a HIndu & Sikh catagory...Meaning that HIndus and Sikhs are supposed to be united as ONE...NOw u people obviously dont agree...and thats your opinion...But why wont u allow for a one sentence link to the article that argues about what im saying....Its just one sentence....thats all it is....Their should be a link for those who are interested in learning about this....and one more thing.....Please do not respond to this message and say to me that the reason you are not allowing it is because I do not provide evidence...I mean I have been putting tons & tons of evidence for a few weeks now....and even if i didnt....WHICH I DID....But even if i didnt...ALl the evidence is on the page that I am talking about! The page that I am arguing for has all the evidence....So new excuse do u people have now? ARYAN818 00:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, please don't be rude - even if you think other people have been.

Secondly, what is the sentence you would like included? Please type it out. Keep in mind that no assumptions (POV) should be borne. This Fire Burns.....Always 00:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please provide the sentence or sentences you wish to add to the page with suitable citation. If it doesn't have a citation and it goes along the lines of "some Hindus believe..." or "some Sikhs believe..." then it won't be included (see WP:WEASEL).

Secondly - and I'm not trying to have a go at you here - you may have noticed you've received a slightly hostile reception on Misplaced Pages. I think you should examine the tone that you use when discussing matters and try and understand why people can take things you say the wrong way. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the link.....Hinduism and Sikh Panth.....And Sukh your getting the time frame wrong here....WHen I first debated u guys I was not sarcastic or mean in anyway....It was only AFTER people started calling me names and being sarcastic with me, that made me in turn act the same way....But what your doing is taking my comments out of context and saying "oooo look Aryan, maybe people are like this with you, becasue you act the same way with them...I know myself and I know what i typed....I didnt start it with them, they started it with me

You *cannot* use another Misplaced Pages page as a reference. You can link to it, but it's not a citation. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me make what I asked clearer. All we need from you is: 1) The exact sentence or sentences you wish to add, with any wiki links you wish to add AND 2) A citation supporting the claims made in your sentence (preferably a book, but a reputable web site will do). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

But the article has links...it has evidence...it has references...why am I going to put down references when the article already has them? Im not useing the article as a reference....IM just trying to make the page simple and easy to understand....so if someone clicks the Hinduism and Sikh Panth page then they can see the references for themselves!...What part dont u get? ARYAN818 20:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I will not be continuing this conversation any further unless you provide both the line or two you wish to add and a citation supporting any of your claims about Sikhism and Hinduism being one (there are authors who have wrote about stuff like this, so finding such a citation shouldn't even be difficult). The Hinduism and Sikh Panth article is a mess, and contains no inline citations to substantiate any of its claims. All you're doing now is wasting my time when I have better things to be doing. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Aryan, TELL US THE LINE YOU WANT TO INCORPORATE. Don't waste time talking about everything except that. This Fire Burns.....Always 21:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

WAIT, the argument still stays, you said if someone dosen't belive that they are diffrent it wasen't up to me to remove it.

But the same could be said about you, if we don't buy it then why should you put it up? Besides your article is pretty one sided mabye you should equal it out so mabye we can put it up.

The article is one sided? Please explain to me what part of the article is not a fact...everything on their is a fact...no opinions...facts....anyway here is the sentence that i am trying to put up....It would say...."Their are a number of people that have always believed the Gurus were not trying to seperate people into a Hindu and Sikh catagory. They argue that Hinduism and Sikhism should be united and not seperated. For more information please see Hinduism and Sikh Panth"....NOw is that bad?...Doesnt take up room from SUKH's precious page...Doesnt say its fact or opinion...it just says if u want more information click this...why is that bad?? ARYAN818 06:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a reference which mentions that some Sikhs claim the religions are the same but the writer of the article is actually against the idea. . It can be used as a source though there are probably better (I'm too lazy to look!) Gizza 07:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Your reasons are some of the dumbest I have seen, a name is no reason to claim their is a connection. A Christian family can name their son Pizzaro, so would that make them Spanish?

Same with your intermarriage claims, I could marry a white girl, would that mean my religion as a bond with hers? No (Your argument is about family values, not Sikh and Hindu familys in general!).

I have never seen or heard of a Sikh going to a Hindu mandir, show some PROOF! O focurse I have seen some HIndus coming to Gurdwaras when they need help. SHOW YOUR SOURCES FOR THESE CLAIMS

So if the son was Sikh and the family wasen't that means theirs a connection? WHERES THE PROOF?

Again this argument is on family values, how do you know those familys accepted it with open arms? Hey with that idealogy I guess I cam convert to into a Christian or what ever so 50 years after im gone people will look back and say my religion could possibly be linked to Sikhism!

12 July 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elven6 (talk • contribs)

Elven6, I must have asked you many many times - please sign your posts using ~~~~! This automatically converts to your name and the date/time you posted.

"I have never seen or heard of a Sikh going to a Hindu mandir" - I have. Plenty of Sikhs visit mandirs, especially in the Punjab. The situation outside of India is different, but inside India, Sikhs visit Gurdwaras, Mandirs and Sufi burial sites. Hindus too visit Gurdwaras and Sufi burial sites. Hindus and Sikhs get on *very* well in Punjab, contrary to what the media may say relating to the events of the 1980s and they still visit one another's places of worship.

Thank-you for posting a link DaGizza. I'll see if I can accommodate a line or two in the article. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sukh's point is true On a visit last year to Bombay, I visited the Haji Ali Dargah and saw several Hindu and Sikh men and women paying their respects. This Fire Burns Always 20:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added a section "Relationship with Hinduism" in "Sikh people" (I'm not really sure where to put it). It's a bit rough at the moment. Please tell me what you think. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

This paragraph is only temporary. Please list your objections/comments so we can finalise the content, then we can mix the actual content in with the rest of the page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

We are not saying that a name proves anything....it doesnt....BUT These are not regular names like CARLOS, JATIN, MIKE, OR JASPREET....THese are HARDCORE RELIGIOUS NAMES...When u name your son HAR KRISHAN...OR RAM DAS....OR RAM RAI....I mean come on thats pretty dam Hindu...Do u know what those names mean?....If ur a Guru and u name ur son HAR KRISHAN are u gonna say the Guru didn beleive in Krishna? If ur a Guru and u name ur son RAM are u gonna say the guru doesnt believe in Ram?....I mean this is not 2006 when u name ur son David....This is the time of the Gurus giving out hardcore religious names....Its like somebody naming their son PRAISE JESUS....are u gonna say the father didnt believe in Jesus?? ARYAN818 05:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you think people pull names out of their rear ends? It was the time of course people would name their kids like that, after all their weren't many Sikh names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elven6 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a FUNNY argument to make for someone whose username reflects a neo-Nazi symbol... This Fire Burns Always 06:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Aryan, I think this is where you say 'touché'. Also, please don't ruin the indentation of posts. It makes them difficult to follow. Also, I'm reverting most of your changes . This is a featured article and we don't appreciate controversial additions without citations. None of the present sources agree with what you have added. Also, you've changed a direct quote from Khushwant Singh - this is VERY misleading. Do not do this please. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 09:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sukh u are the worst....I mean u finally put up a link for Hinduism and sikhism as ONE...U ask everyone to help out on it , since its not 100% fixed....Then I come in and make the most minor of changes...and u erase it all...I its ok if u didnt think that i did the best job...But why would u erase everything? I Mean some of the changes that I made were just changes such as the structure of a sentence.....Thats it....I mean did u have to change EVERYTHING?....U know its people like u that make wikipeida soooo frustrating...Its like u own everything ARYAN818 18:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't change *everything* you wrote. If you cannot see why changing a quote is wrong, or why adding comments such as "Scholars such as Singh argue that the Gurus never intended to seperate people into a Hindu and Sikh catagory. That they were instead trying to unite everyone under God. " without reference to a single scholar who said that is wrong, then I cannot help you.

I have mentioned to you time and time again that your additions need to be cited. If you cannot provide references, I WILL remove them. And no, I don't own the article, but you seem to be unable to take any constructive criticsm. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This topic is pointless, in my last post to remove this garbage you said we shoulden't remove it because I say so. Well guess what I think you shoulden't add it just because YOU want it here! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elven6 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

My tuppence

I agree with This Fire Burns Always 's statement. As the "name" issue has been raked up, let me give some illustrations from the great Judaeo-Christian-Islamic monotheistic tradition of the Middle East. It has been noted by theologians that the relationship between these three faiths is perhaps the most unique amongst organised religions of the world. Here is a list of figures common to the three:

1. Adam(Judaeo-Christian) and Aadam(Muslim)
2. Eve(J-C) and Havva(M)
3. Cain/Kane(J-C) and Cabin(M)
4. Avraham(Hebrew), Abraham(English) and Ibrahim(Arabic)
5. Lot(J-C) and Lut(M)
6. Ezekiel (J-C) and Dhul-Kifl(M)
7. Sarah(J-C) and Sara(M)
8. Hagar (J-C) and Hajra(M)
9. Isaac(J-C) and Ishaaq(Arabic)
10. Ishmael(J-C) and Ismail(M)
11. Jacob (J-C) and Yakub(M)
12. Rachel (J-C) and Raheel(M)
13. Joseph(J-C) and Yusuf(M)
14. Jethro(J-C) and Shoaib(M)
15. Jonah(J-C) and Yunus(M)
16. Job(J-C) and Ayub(M)
17. Moshe(Hebrew), Moses(English) and Musa(Arabic)
18. Aaron(J-C) and Haroon(M)
19. Joshua
20. Gideon
21. Caleb
22. Elijah(J-C) and Illyas(M)
23. David(J-C) and Dawood(M)
24. Solomon(J-C) amd Suleman/Sulayman(M)
25. Shimshon(Hebrew) and Samson(English)
26. Shimuel(Hebrew) and Samuel(English)
27. Gabriel(J-C) and Jibril(M)
28. Michael(J-C) and Mikaeel(M)
29. Alexander who is called Sikandar or Zulqernain in the Qu'ran
30. Daniel(J-C) and Danyal(M)
31. St. John the Baptist is Yahya in the Qu'ran
32. Mary(J-C) and Marium(M)
33. Jesus who is Isa-Ale-Salaam in the Qu'ran
34. Shimon(Hebrew) and Simon(English)
35. Zacharias (J-C) and Zakarya(M)

In spite of there being so many similarities, there is the paradox of the three: So intrinsically linked and yet so bitterly separated. Compared to these Abrahmic faiths, the relationship between their Dharmic counterparts (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism) has been much more peaceful.

As for the Hinduism-Sikhism controversy that has been raging on this page, here's my take:

Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre, in their masterpiece, Freedom at Midnight have described Sikhism as:

"Sikhism was born from the impact of monotheistic Islam on polytheistic Hinduism on the warring frontiers of the Punjab, where the two faiths first collided."

I don't want to comment on the theological similarities between the two as I am not an expert. But being a Punjabi Hindu myself, and that too from the Arora and Khatri communities, I can very much say that socially the two were very close. No one can deny that. I myself had Sikh ancestors, though today my family is mostly Hindu. This Roti-Beti Ka Rishta is undeniable.

Personally, I hold extremists on both sides as culpable for the 'great schism' that has occured between the two groups socially.

However, whatever has happened has happened. Khushwant Singh in the newer editions of his masterpiece, A history of the Sikhs has noted that though peace has returned to Punjab, the relationship between its two communities has drastically changed and will never be the same as before.

It is the Punjab which has suffered. The divide of Muslim and Non-Muslim in'47 and Hindu and Sikh in '84. Religion has been the biggest bane and scourge of our province as in other parts of the Subcontinent.

Rajatjghai 09:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rajat - I think you overrate the "extemists." The fact is that Indian political and religious groups do not represent the communities of India as much as the media likes to think. While living in Bombay, I witnessed the 1992 riots, the Ambedkar riots and several other disturbances - I discovered that over 95% of people do not associate themselves, nor support the people creating all the hooplah - this includes the poor. This is one of the reasons that life in Bombay is normal even after the recent bomb blasts - the other reason is that 18 million people cannot be asked to sit on their bums for a whole day. People have to eek out a living, come hell or high water.

The Hindu-Sikh riots were caused by the conflagration between the Congress and the Bhindranwale militia - they should be accurately termed the "Congress-Bhindranwale riots." 98% of Hindus and Sikhs did not condone it, nor associated themselves with the perpetrators. Obviously there was anger over Indira Gandhi's killing and the storming of the Golden Temple, but common people weren't prepared to kill over this.

The situation during partition was different because more than 20 million common people were displaced in violent and high-pressure circumstances. Bereft of their homes, heritage and homeland, people turned to violence. I don't blame them.

Cowardly mobs only attack unarmed civilians - if they attack police or each other, they'll find out the true meaning of violence. Common Hindus and Sikhs were distressed at what happened, and mostly people are anxious in these situations only because of fear of the mobs invading their neighbourhood. When raving lunatics parade through a street, the people in homes obviously get anxious. This Fire Burns Always 20:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Sir, we can only hope and pray that what you say is true. Like Lincoln said after Appomattox, "We have won the war. Now we have to win the peace; the hearts and minds of the people."

Actually, by extremists I did not mean Bhindranwale and Co. and the Congress, who indeed would take the lion's share for the whole problem. I was hinting at the Arya Samaj (of which I am ironically a member), which on its formation in 1875 in Bombay by Swami Dayanand, became immensely popular among Hindus of the Punjab and the United Provinces.

Swami Dayanand fired the first salvo, by calling Nanak a dambhi(hypocrite). To him, only the Vedas were the Supreme Truth. His followers followed suit and attacked the other Gurus and the Granth as well. Dayanand in his book , "Satyarth Prakash" also attacked the persons of Jesus and the Prophet. The Arya Samaj followed all this with an aggressive Shuddhi campaign across the province.

Phir Kya tha. The hawks on the Sikh side joined in the party. The coming years would see the formation of the Singh Sabhas, the Chief Khalsa Diwan, revival of interest in the Punjabi language and the Gurmukhi script, the rise of eminent authors such as Bhai Vir Singh who saw language and script as being cognate to religion and of course that watershed work by Bhai Kahan Singh of Nabha - "Hum Hindu Nahin."

This of course was the first phase of the division. The second phase came during Partition. Demands for a sovereign Sikh state were first floated because some felt that, "The Hindus got Hindustan and the Muslims got Pakistan. But what did we Sikhs get out of it?" However, Nehru and the Congress Party assured the Sikh leadership of equal rights for the community in an independent India and hence the demand stayed as it was. But not for long.

The Sikh leadership wanted a state with a Sikh majority. When it was decided to reorganize the Indian map on a linguistic basis, the leadership first floated the idea of a "Punjabi Suba" to be carved out of erstwhile East Punjab which comprised of Haryana, today's Punjab and Himachal Pradesh. Himachal separated in the '50s while Haryana came into being in '66.

But the most negative fallout - Yeah, you guessed it right. Language being co-related with religion. Punjabi Hindus, coaxed by Arya Samaj leaders like Lala Jagat Narain (by sheer coincidence, a distant relative of mine), declared Hindi rather than Punjabi to be their mother tongue in the '51 and '61 Census so that the Punjabi Suba which would be a Sikh majority state did not come into being. This caused great heartburn to the Sikhs, who considered it as an outright betrayal.

And later came the Green Revolution with its prosperity, which in turn led to many Sikhs giving up the external emblems of their faith - their hair and beards and taking to smoking and drinking.

There was also the sensitive issue of being a minority group in an overwhelmingly Hindu majority country. The fear of being "reabsorbed", the question of identity -whatever you choose to call it.

The problem of the Sant Nirankaris, who had recognized a living person as their Guru and thus violated the most basic commandment of the faith.

The bickering between the Congress (read Mrs. Gandhi) and the Akalis - leading to the row over sharing of river waters, the issue of Chandigarh and transfer of Punjabi-speaking areas in Haryana back to Punjab.

And in the midst of all this, appeared a lean, tall rustic preacher by the name of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale from the village of Rode, who had studied from the seminary of Damdami Taksal.

You had it all. Only a spark was needed. That came in the form of the beheading of Baba Gurbachan Singh, the Guru of the Sant Nirankaris in '78 or '79 (I don't remember exactly). But since that day, the whole state saw and bathed in red.

There is still a lot of resentment in the minds and hearts of certain members of the Sikh community. It may not appear on the surface but it still simmers underneath. All of us who hold the interests of the Punjab and India dear, can only wish that never again should such a vicissitude be perpetrated on us Punjabis, who have been at the receiving end for over five millenia.

As it is, the state is today completely reabsorbed into the national mainstream. Now is the time for a redressal of other pressing social problems: a skewed sex-ratio, large scale-migration from the Hindi belt, which some believe could cause a demographic change and lastly, farmers' suicides (Yeah, I am sure all know that farmers even in the country's breadbasket are killing themselves like their counterparts in the Deccan). Rajatjghai 07:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

And the lack of industrialisation of the state, the infrastructure mess ( Haryana learned from Chandigarh, even villages in Haryana have better roads, sectors and bus stands than the towns in Punjab.Huda is now ensuring that even smaller towns of 50000 + population are planned, and people cannot make houses arbitrarily but have to follow guidelines) One should see the condition of the main bus stands in Ludhiana, Jalndhar or Amritsar. Or the lack of planning and roads in all of these towns. This for a state that was the first to take roads and electricity till the village level. Apart from Pratap Singh Kairon none of the Chief Ministers have built infrastructure in Punjab. Haphar 09:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Very true. Also alongside the agricultural sector, you have Gurgoan and Faridabad, satellite towns of the National Capital allright but BPO hubs nonetheless. So you already have a nascent Services sector in the making in Haryana.

What's more Hooda recently made a master-stroke by inviting Mukesh Ambani to set up shop and SEZs in the state.

Compare this with Punjab. The manufacturing (Hoisery and others) sector is in doldrums. Services have appeared. But only in Chandigarh's satellite town of Mohali. Proximity to Chandigarh rather than individual enterprise is the cause.

And finally, the agricultural sector - I don't need to speak more about it.Rajatjghai 12:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hinduization of Sikhism

Ok so I decided to let the guy put his article up, if he could put one up about how the two are the same then could I put one up about the Hinduization of Sikhism? Their both contoversial topics that are threating the Sikh way of life.

Elven6 July 14 2006 UTC

Sikhism Wikiproject

Hi,

If there is enough support, I'm thinking of starting a Wikiproject for Sikhism. If you are interested in joining, please say so below! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Rajatjghai 20:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
2. This Fire Burns Always 20:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:32, 14 July 2006 (UTC) (as per nom!)
4. Haphar 22:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
5. ARYAN818 Id love to help out all the people who never read Hindu scriptures & yet have opinions about Hinduism!

   Aryan818's original comment was "Id love to join my Khalistan friends!" . You're welcome to join this WikiProject, but if you wish to "help out all the people who never read Hindu scriptures & yet have opinions about Hinduism!" then it's probably best you join the Hinduism WikiProject. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

   Prime example on why I have a problem with Misplaced Pages members like SUKH...Yes I did orignally type in the Khalistan comment (which im probably right about anyway)...But then I realized it was wrong for me to put that, so right away I erasesd it and changed my comment....I basically did the RIGHT THING...But SUKH decides that he has to tell the whole world that my orginal comment was about Khalistan....See why I have a problem with users like SUKH? ARYAN818 20:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

   I'm glad you considered that comment was wrong. But you should be sure about a comment before you commit it. Once it has been committed, if you later retract that comment, you can strike it out using <s> like this. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 21:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

6. Elven6 July 15 2006 (UTC) Sure im up for it, Aryan its not a Hindu wiki project!

• Unassessed Sikhism articles
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists