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1948-villages

see: User:Huldra/Sandbox

Also:

• User:Huldra/Sources

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Palestine/Jisr Jindas
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Palestine/Mamluk Bridge, Yibna
• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Palestine/Mausoleum of Abu Huraira

Unwelcome edit!

I have blocked the offensive IP address! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 13:27, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi page protection

I have semi-protected your user talk page for another week to stop these mindless attacks - if you want this to be for longer - let me know! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 13:36, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Protection

Have sorted it - had hit the wrong protection button - should be ok now! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 13:42, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot; may I ask you ( or any watching admin) to please "wash" (rev-del) my talk-page? Thanks, Huldra (talk) 13:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by rev-del? Will help if I can ! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 13:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

If I go into the history go my user-page, say here (look towards the bottom of the page), quite a lot of edits are visible which hopefully could go down a memory-hole? I´m not sure how it is done, but it has been done quite a few times before on this user-page, (yeah; J. and I are old "friends"), Huldra (talk) 14:02, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I have also removed the offensive edit summaries on your talk page! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Archive

I have cleared all the above to a new archive page User talk:Huldra/Archive 2 - hope this helps! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 14:03, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but is it not possible to remove this from the history? Huldra (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that is exactly what I mean...Huldra (talk) 14:12, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Am not used to doing this but it seems to have worked! Brookie :) { - he's in the building somewhere!} 14:15, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Book of Leibner

As in Farradiyya — I think you have it but if not I can send it. Lots of stuff in there. Zero 05:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I don´t have it, but I would very much appreciate it, Huldra (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Please stop writing threats on my user page

Since you have an issue with every single one of my edits, please discuss on talk page of relevant article. I'm tired of you threatening and harassing me. Thank you.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Is this a revert?

Have there been any recent 1RR violations at 1948 Palestinian exodus. What about this edit? It will not count as a revert if it's adding brand new material. But it might be restoring some material that was previously removed. I have not been able to figure that out, but perhaps you can. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Hadatha

Hello! Your submission of Hadatha at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yoninah, thanks for taking care of the matter. Huldra, thank you for your many contributions to DYK and the rest of the project. Happy holidays everyone--my mother in law went home and there's a few beers left, so this turn out nicely after all. But first it's nap time! Drmies (talk) 19:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot to both of you! I hadn´t really though of making Hadatha a DYK, I was just trying to clean up the various Haditha (disambiguation)s. As you can see on Talk:Hadatha: there have been some mix-ups. Very typical: on almost all of these places with rather similar names: there have been mix-ups. (See Talk:Tira, Israel, or Talk:Tayibe). Now: back to my (short?) break; I´ll be back in a few days, hopefully. In the meantime: Enjoy your beer! And thanks for your good work! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:23, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Global account

Hi Huldra! As a Steward I'm involved in the upcoming unification of all accounts organized by the Wikimedia Foundation (see m:Single User Login finalisation announcement). By looking at your account, I realized that you don't have a global account yet. In order to secure your name, I recommend you to create such account on your own by submitting your password on Special:MergeAccount and unifying your local accounts. If you have any problems with doing that or further questions, please don't hesitate to ping me with {{ping|DerHexer}}. Cheers, —DerHexer (Talk) 00:01, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hadatha

On 3 January 2015, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Hadatha, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Palestinian Arab village of Hadatha, where late Roman and Byzantine ceramics were found, was depopulated during the 1948 Palestine war? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Hadatha. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Harrias 12:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL, that's efficient service for you ;-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year Huldra!

Huldra,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. NorthAmerica 17:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

On Zochrot and the use of "depopulated"

I've used ethnic cleansed where it was actually ethnic cleansed (i.e: in Ramle when the Jewish fighters were instructed to kill everyone regardless of age, stormed into a mosque and massacred everyone). How is this depopulated?

Furthermore, how is Zochrot not used as a source? It is a reliable primary source. In fact, it is more reliable than most historians reporting on something they have no witnessed. Where is Zochrot opposed as a reliable source? I've seen other pro-Zionist and clearly biased sources being used, yet Zochrot has been tagged as unreliable I can see some instances where Palestine Remembered is inaccurate, although in most instances it is.

Nayefc (talk) 08:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Sure, a lot of clearly biased sources are used on Misplaced Pages, in that case you are allowed to write that "According to"...etc. Palestine Remembered is a private web-site, a blog if you like, and that is not WP:RS. I have been fighting tooth and nail to keep it in the "External links"-section, pr WP:EL, I most of all appreciate their pictures: very valuable. Everything else from Pal.Rem which you could put into Misplaced Pages can much better be sourced to the original source. So, you use Barron, 1923, for the 1922 data, and Mills, 1932, for the 1931 data, and Hütteroth and Abdulfattah for the 1596 data. Yes: it is more work, but it is more reliable in the end. If you want to totally waste your time on edit-warring putting "ethnically cleansed" into leads; that is you choice (& then you will be blocked: I have seen it happen countless times.), cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Grid references

Suppose the grid reference for villages was added to the info box. It would make questions of identification cleaner. What do you think? Zero 03:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it would be good if the grid reference were added to all the info-boxes, especially on smaller places. All the scholars in the area seems to have some mix-ups. I have no idea as to how we change the info-boxes, though, do you? Huldra (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I can add the fields, but which info boxes are we talking about? Certainly {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}} but maybe some others should have the option too? Incidentally there is a cheap Mac application that can convert lat+long into Pal grid; I'll check it out then send you email about it. Zero 00:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I may have correctly added a parameter "palgrid" to go after the lat-long coordinates in {{Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine}}. Please see Bayt Dajan for an example. I think we can usually use 6 digits like that, but we can also use 8 digits if more accuracy is needed. Does it look ok? Zero 10:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does, but we really need to have something to divide the two numbers, it could be 134.156 or 134/156. And we need something which indicate which number is first; E-W, or N-S: I always mix them up, so I expect other people do, as well! Perhaps: 134.156 (E-W.N-S). or: Palestine grid (E-W, N-S) 134.156.

(Presently it is like a lot of the science-articles on Misplaced Pages: completely understandable if, and only if, you know all the stuff beforehand....)

About which places should have it: lets start with the info boxes on places which we (and lots of scholars) have mixed up; places in Haditha (disambiguation), Taybeh (disambiguation), Rumman, Tira? I see {{Infobox Palestinian Authority muni}} {{Infobox settlement}} {{Infobox Israel municipality}} {{Infobox Israel village}}, for a start? Huldra (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It is just a general text field so you can write anything there. I rather like "134/156". I already put in the template instructions that EW goes before NS, but I don't like writing that in the infobox itself. It suggests there is more than one possibility, which there isn't. The field will never mean anything except to those few who understand maps and how map coordinates are formed, so there is no point in trying to explain it to other people. If we had somewhere to wikilink the heading "Palestine grid" to, that would be good. Zero 01:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I see Khalidi use exactly the same, he has written 134156 for Bayt Dajan. A space, like 134 156 is also a possibility. I agree that it will not mean anything to most people reading it, but we should not make it difficult for people to understand. Btw, I knew nothing about grid-numbers when I started at Misplaced Pages....now I find they are extremely useful, if not a complete necessity to understand, say the articles of Barag and Frankel. Ok, I´ll start adding the grid-numbers for the 48-places (easy to do, as Khalidi gives them) Huldra (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I made Palestine grid, please suggest improvements. When it is ok, we can link "Palestine grid" in the infobox to it. Zero 13:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Excellent! Actually, I think it looks pretty good now. Huldra (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

The WB and Israeli location infoboxes use Infobox Settlement, so I can't add the PalGrid to there easily. But I put in a request for new fields in Infobox Settlement — hopefully it will be done soon. Zero 07:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope so, it seems as if most of the "serious" info about these places is given with grid-numbers. Say, Hütteroth &Abdulfattah, Pringle, Finkelstein. Btw this. (Oh, and this.) Huldra (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I have also asked here: Template talk:Infobox settlement, but no reply so far. Huldra (talk) 18:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Alas, so they have agreed, and added it to Infobox settlement.....it is just that this does not affect the villages and towns on the West Bank, as they use the "Infobox Palestinian Authority muni" and "Infobox Palestinian Authority municipality"...and I have no idea as to where to ask to have it added there? Huldra (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Probably I can do that. Zero 23:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Please do! Huldra (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see Frietjes did it, already :), Huldra (talk) 20:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

There are some articles which I would like to insert grid-no (or have inserted grid-no., and they do not show): Atlit, Ein Hod, Caesarea, Abu Kabir, Ramla, Taybeh, Ilut. Huldra (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I asked Frietjes to help. For locations using Infobox Israel village and similar, it will be necessary to write "grid_name=Palestine grid" and "grid_position=aaa/bbb" since it is reasonable to allow newer locations to have the Israel grid instead of the Palestine grid. Incidentally, some places like Atlit are not where they used to be. Perhaps just put it in like "grid_position=formerly 144/234, now 144/232"? Zero 01:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

Whilst Your improvements to articles on Arab villages are welcomed, you must know that changing the description of villages in Israel from "Arab" to Palestinian Arab is controversial at best. I appreciate you feel strongly about the matter, but we all have to maintain NPOV when editing. Thanks, Number 57 11:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Number 57: I totally disagree here. We normally go by what people define themselves as. We don't have the article Blacks in America (or rather we do, but it is just a redir), we have African American, as that is what African Americans wants to be known as. Why should it be different for Israel? Most Arab citizens of Israel want to be known as "Palestinian", why should we deny them their right to do that? (Read the Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology) It is simply disrespectful to not use the word "Palestinian" on Palestinian Arab places in Israel, Or should the opinion of Arab citizens of Israel count for nothing? Huldra (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

In a neutral encyclopedia, personal opinions count for nothing – what matters is neutrality and common usage in reliable sources specific to the language the encyclopedia is written in. This is nothing to do with being disrespectful (the "disrespect" argument is commonly used by editors seeking to introduce their non-neutral POV, so I'd avoid using it if I were you). As an aside, for some reason your pings do not work (I only checked back here out of interest to see if you had replied) – try using {{ping}}. Cheers, Number 57 22:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57:.Thanks for your info about my ping, hope this works better. Anyway: this is also about Misplaced Pages history: many of the places we are talking about were started as copies from Hebrew Wp, if I recall correctly. If they had been started as copies from Arab wp, I would guess they would all be called just "Palestinian" today. I´m not going to avoid using the word "disrespectful"; (I have not seen it used the way you mention, though I don´t doubt your word), it *is* disrespectful, IMO. In the end, though, it is about what WP:RS say, and that´s why I thought linking to Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Terminology could be illuminating. I know that in my own country (in Scandinavia) the term "Israeli Palestinians" are now used by mainstream media. And when even The New York Times (which can hardly be accused of anti-Israeli bias) use both 'Palestinian Israelis' and 'Israeli Arabs' ....then I do not think it is fair to use the term POV for wanting to use the word "Palestinian Arab". I wonder if we should take this to mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? (Not that I have had any experience with the process). But frankly, I suspect neither you nor me will change position on this issue, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the question is, if you are aware that both Israeli Arab and Palestinian Arab are in use, why you would choose to change "Arab" to one of the two which potentially cause issues. Using the neutral "Arab" avoids this problem. Why is this not good enough? Number 57 22:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57: Hmm, for me the question is, Why are people allergic to the word "Palestinian"? If someone wants to be called/identifies with "Palestinian", why not call them that? I have a friend who wants to be addressed as "they", well, I did struggle with that (all my English-teachers who over the years had tried to teach me one person is either "he" or "she". But now I call "them" "they". (If you see what I mean: earlier "they" would have been a "she" to me!) We respect a Chelsey Manning when she wants to be known as "she", but not Palestinian in Israel who wants to be know as a Palestinian. I think the question is, why is "Arab" "good enough" for them? Huldra (talk) 23:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Two comments - firstly, if someone wants to identify as a Palestinian, they can and it should be noted in their individual article (but it doesn't take away from the fact that they are also still Israeli by virtue of their citizenship). However, Misplaced Pages is not the place to put labels on a whole group of people who we have no idea whether they accept that label or not. Do you know if every single person in those towns and villages self-identifies as Palestinian? If not, then you cannot label whole towns or villages. Secondly, and more importantly, an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral. Labelling a place in Israel as being Palestinian does not offer that clarity or neutrality. The appropriate place to discuss the issue of identification is Arab citizens of Israel or individual people's articles. Number 57 23:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57: Firstly, how do we know that the people of Harlem wants to be identified as African American and not as Black Americans? We don´t. But we know that if the majority of African American wants to be identified as that (and not as "Black American") then we respect that, and name the places as populate by African American. Why should we treat the Palestinian places in Israel any different? Your second point is interesting. You say that "an encylopedia is meant to be clear and neutral"; I agree, but the situation on the ground is anything but clear; what you are trying to do, IMHO, is to impose a "clarity" on Misplaced Pages where there is none in the real world. Should not an encyclopaedia reflect the reality? Again, I suggest mediation; to get some new, "fresh" eyes to look at it? Huldra (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

If you want mediation, I suggest we detail our prospective cases at Talk:Uzeir and request a WP:Third opinion. Number 57 15:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Number 57:, ok I have summed up my view on Talk:Uzeir, I´ll wait until you have done the same, and then ask for WP:Third opinion. -Huldra (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Your last revert on Israeli-occupied territories

• Can you explain me how "The term occupied is challenged by some pro-Israeli official bodies and organizations, including the Israeli government" is better than "The Israeli government maintains the territories were captured in a defensive war thus according to international law their status is"
• Since Israeli claims are mentioned in regards to Gaza after 2005, doesn't it make sense to put first Israel claim after 1967. It either both (in that order) or neither. And why it is alone two paragraphs later?

Neither of these change I have made are about my opinion, it is simple logic. If you can't answer, please revert and save me the fire from up above :) Ashtul (talk) 23:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Umm al-Kheir

I have added a page for Umm al-Kheir. It can be spelled with an A or E (or some other combinations) so right now it doesn't show on Hebron Governorate category bar. Cheers. Ashtul (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I have moved it to Umm al-Khair, Hebron: the template name. Huldra (talk) 17:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Which one of my edits rubbed you the wrong way? None of them touched on Israel-Palestine issues. They were geographical or about towns inside pre-1967 Israel? Ashtul (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Most of them. Say, List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus also lies within pre-1967 Israel, still every one of the articles on that list are forbidden to edit by anyone with a topic ban. Huldra (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Guerin's Holy Land

It is at Gallica: . Note there are two parts even though the first part doesn't seem to identify itself as such. If you have trouble downloading, I can send it to you but it's a bit big (100M each volume). Zero 22:29, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Found it, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

communal settlement (Israel)

This is a type of town/village in Israel. If you don't like it, change the article name. It is more relevant information than neigbouring communities etc.

As for picture from Carmel, your request for RfD is hypocritical as it was added with no discussion. Ashtul (talk) 21:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

An Israeli West Bank settlement is an Israeli West Bank settlement: illegal in the eyes of the international community. That you are trying to "normalise" them, by getting them to appear as settlements in Israel pre-1967 (i.e. legal, in the eyes of the international community) is A: highly contentious, B: will not hold. Huldra (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Dem) What does that even mean? I added a new source from Haaretz as well. Ashtul (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I copied & pasted from the "Disclaimer" at the bottom of the page you linked to, unfortunately I could not link the whole text, which is as follows: "DISCLAIMER Please note: the text contained in "Arabs and Jews in exemplary coexistence at Barkan – Samaria" has not been corrected, edited or verified by Demotix and is the raw text submitted by the photojournalist. All views and opinions expressed are that of the independent photojournalist and do not represent the views of Demotix Ltd. These details have been included in order to provide as much information as possible to the Media buyer." Huldra (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, I haven't seen it. But it does say it on the Haaretz article so please, self revert. Ashtul (talk) 23:19, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that it is a "premium" article from Haaretz: unless you subscribe (which I don´t) you cannot see the whole article. What I can see is this: "EU settlement ban casts shadow over Palestinian industry in the West Bank. Israeli business owners wonder how many Palestinians will lose their jobs if companies are forced to move over the Green Line into Israel proper. It’s early morning in the middle of the week and the Barkan Industrial Park in the West Bank opens the day as always. The thousands of workers in dozens of factories - half Israelis and half Palestinians - arrive for work. Some come from the other side of the Green Line or nearby settlements, some from nearby villages and towns such as Nablus or Salfit."

And you want me to re-add "At Barkan Industrial Park, thousands of Israelis and Palestinians coexist and work side by side in many of the factories. Palestinian workers can earn as much as 4 times the monthly average salary in the Palestinian Authority.".....sourced to what I can see of the above Haaretz-article? Sorry, no way. Huldra (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

And please explain me, a smart person to another smart person, how that image with 'Carmel in background' isn't POVPUSH. Ashtul (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Should I copy paste you the article? Can I read every book you quote? Seriously!!!

And while at it, putting a gazillion books in Bibliography in Afula article is clear POVPUSH again. The Palestinian connection is mentioned and there is no need for 20 books. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Ashtul (talk) 23:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Huh? I don´t understand what you mean, here. As for the Afula article, I believe the only references I haven´t yet used are the "Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel"-ones. Never heard anyone objecting to me adding those before?? And when a place has a 1000 year or more with non-Jewish history, and less than 100 years with newer Jewish history: don´t be surprised that there are a "gazillion books" about the non-Jewish history. Oh, and finally: please be careful calling other editors WP:POVPUSHers , Huldra (talk) 23:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

You might be right about Afula. What about reverting Barkan b/c you can't access an article on Haaretz or the image with Carmel 'at the background'?

Also, please let me know how you want to proceed about Community settlement (Israel). I have no problem with droping the (Israel) from that page if that what bothers you. Ashtul (talk) 00:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, you see, that is the problem: you totally misread my edits on Afula, and make the quite serious accusation of WP:POVPUSH against me......and *then* you ask me to trust your reading of the Haaretz article I cannot see. Seriously, do you think that is a reasonable request? (Thank you for admitting your mistake on Afula, at least).

As for the Community settlement (Israel)-article: frankly, the article is horrible; it looks as if 90% is completely unsourced. If you want to improve the situation, then I suggest that you start by adding sources, in English, preferably. Huldra (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

3RR notice

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