| Revision as of 05:06, 20 February 2015 editFlyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs)365,630 edits →Definition: "Males and females" in the lead vs. being ambiguous← Previous edit | Revision as of 05:39, 20 February 2015 edit undoPersonman (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,192 edits →Definition: "Males and females" in the lead vs. being ambiguousNext edit → | ||
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| What I've stated on this matter is supported by ] in the article. Being gender non-conforming or gender variant (or known by any of the other synonyms), as defined by the vast majority of WP:Reliable sources, means to "deviate" from the gender role expected of a male or female. And we should be explicitly clear about that, including in the lead. It does not mean deviating from ] or deviating from any ] identity. It specifically means that a male has deviated from the gender expectations of a boy or a man, or that a female has deviated from the gender expectations of girl or a woman. This does not exclude intersex people in any way; the lead does not state that males and females are the only sexes. But like I've made clear before (near the end of ), "Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as ] or ]), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter, though the ] exists and third gender/genderqueer matters are usually formulated in gender terms (boy/man; girl/woman)... ...I'll grant you that I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and ] non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article)." ] (]) 04:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | What I've stated on this matter is supported by ] in the article. Being gender non-conforming or gender variant (or known by any of the other synonyms), as defined by the vast majority of WP:Reliable sources, means to "deviate" from the gender role expected of a male or female. And we should be explicitly clear about that, including in the lead. It does not mean deviating from ] or deviating from any ] identity. It specifically means that a male has deviated from the gender expectations of a boy or a man, or that a female has deviated from the gender expectations of girl or a woman. This does not exclude intersex people in any way; the lead does not state that males and females are the only sexes. But like I've made clear before (near the end of ), "Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as ] or ]), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter, though the ] exists and third gender/genderqueer matters are usually formulated in gender terms (boy/man; girl/woman)... ...I'll grant you that I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and ] non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article)." ] (]) 04:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | ||
| == Contention over lead sentence == | |||
| (I submitted the following and got an edit conflict with the above. Not sure what protocol is, so I'm just leaving my initial text here with this note. The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making.) | (I submitted the following and got an edit conflict with the above. Not sure what protocol is, so I'm just leaving my initial text here with this note. The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making.) | ||
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| :Oh, I see by "The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making." text that Personman did read what I stated above. Oh well. Not a lot more for me to state on the matter then. I will be even clearer with this point, though: Many, perhaps most, intersex people would prefer that people stop thinking of them as some other sex that can't simply be male or female; again, the vast majority of them are biologically classified as male or female and identity as male or female. ] (]) 05:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | :Oh, I see by "The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making." text that Personman did read what I stated above. Oh well. Not a lot more for me to state on the matter then. I will be even clearer with this point, though: Many, perhaps most, intersex people would prefer that people stop thinking of them as some other sex that can't simply be male or female; again, the vast majority of them are biologically classified as male or female and identity as male or female. ] (]) 05:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | ||
| ::Your removal of the heading caused our posts to be at the same level, with no break, which was confusing. I've reinserted it. | |||
| ::Your rebuttal continue to miss my point - in no way am I suggesting anything like that about intersex people; in fact, I think my edit explicitly supports that position. You have not at any point explained what is ambiguous about my edit - it has almost exactly the same semantics as yours, without the awkwardness of calling humans "males and females", and without excluding those people who are neither male nor female, but who have nevertheless received sex assignments and have gender performances expected of them from which they can vary. | |||
| ::You wrote "It specifically means that a male has deviated from the gender expectations of a boy or a man, or that a female has deviated from the gender expectations of girl or a woman." I don't understand this claim at all, and see no source for it. Googling a bit, I also can't find any source that restricts gender variance in this way. See for instance the entry , which gives "behaving in a way which is perceived by others as being outside cultural gender norms", without any statement about the sex of the person doing the performing. Until you can provide some kind of evidence for your position, I'm reverting it. ] (]) 05:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Proposal to merge Atypical gender role into this article
I think the article Atypical gender role should be merged into this article, because the concept of atypical gender roles is very similar to the concept of gender variance. --Alynna (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree The article specifically says "People who exhibit gender variance may be called gender variant, gender non-conforming, or gender atypical", suggesting that atypical gender roles exist mainly in the context of gender variance and could provide a more complete article when combined. Since no one has opposed this merge, I'm going to merge them. --Iamozy (talk) 17:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
General comments about the article Atypical gender role
This article is totally wrong. It seeks to describe things from a radical 'queer' perspective. Eg, heteronormativity is described "a binary system in which a person's gender identity and gender role should match a person's external genitalia."
This view wrongly sees as heterosexuality as the same as 'Gender Congruent behaviour,' e.g. 'masculinity in males' ... and non-heterosexuality, e.g. sexuality between men as 'Gender Congruent behaviour,' which is akin to femininity in males.
Heteronormativity is about expecting or conditioning or forcing people to be heterosexual.
Also, people of third gender (like Hijra) are described as gender atypical, when in our societies, they have been assigned a valid gender identity (third gender) and Hijras behave typically as per their Gender (which is feminine male). (122.176.198.236 (talk) 12:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC))
- I've copied these comments to Talk:Atypical gender role. --Alynna (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Patriarchy in Male vs. Female Gender variance
The queer commentary on patriarchy in this section has absolutely no source, and following the source that is linked contains nothing about patriarchy. Indeed, it would seem kind of misleading to use the words "many theorists," when none are mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.2.246.32 (talk) 02:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Suggestions for improvement
The section on social status for men vs. women does not have many citations, especially the second paragraph regarding social status for women. The section on association with sexual orientation also has no citations in the second paragraph. What if something is added about the psychological well being of gender nonconforming, OR employment discrimination, OR Suicidal ideation? Dclow87 (talk) 05:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi folks. I'm in the process of editing this page to include a new section on nonconformity/gender variance. These are a few of the resources I've located that I am finding to be useful. If anyone else has suggestions or feedback, do let me know. I hope to have my new content posted in the coming weeks!
(2013). Gender spectrum: understanding gender. Retrieved from https://www.genderspectrum.org/about/understanding-gender
Gender spectrum is a website that provides resources for families of gender variant children with links to definitions, resources, blogs, articles, news stories and press. This site also has frequently asked questions of different scenarios family’s may have. Gender spectrum also accepts donations towards the “support every child's need to safely express who they are”.
Bockting, W., & Ehrbar, R. (January 01, 2005). Commentary gender variance, dissonance, or identity disorder?.Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, 17, 125-134.
This article discusses gender identity disorder (GID) from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The article draws from three articles and provides reasons as to why GID diagnosis should be removed from the DSM.
Crawford, N. (2003). Understanding children's atypical gender behavior. American Psychological Association. Retrieved from http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep03/children.aspx Crawford (2003) discusses her experience with her son when he was a child dealing with gender various. Thirty years ago when Crawford first dealt with her four year old son presenting with non stereotypical male behaviors they took him to a specialist who told her and her husband that they could “fix” the problem. Their son was put through psychotherapy and appeared to grow out of the stage he was in and started doing stereotypical male things. However, when her son reached the age of 20, he came to his parents and said that he suffered from a lot of denial and self doubt throughout the years, because he was forced to act masculine. Crawford goes on to discuss the reasons why children should not be forced to act a certain way, and be free to perform whichever gender is natural for them.
Gender nonconformity, bullying and depression. (2013). Brown University Child & Adolescent Behavior Letter, 29(3), 3.
This article studies participants from ages 12 to 30 years of age with any kind of depressive symptoms in those who were gender nonconforming prior to age 11 and those who were conforming prior to age 11. The results from the study show that participants ages 23 to 30 where 26% of nonconforming, experience some sort of depressive symptoms versus 18% in conforming. A large number of children who are gender nonconforming prior to age 11 have an elevated risk of depressive symptoms, which include: “feelings of isolation, anxiety, depression, and suicidality, according to the authors.” Lee, J. (January 01, 2012). Lost in transition: the challenges of remedying transgender employment discrimination under Title VII. Harvard Journal of Law & Gender, 35, 2, 423-461.
Jason Lee discusses the idea of legal protection for transgender and gender nonconformists when it comes to employment discrimination. Currently there is only protection against racial and sexual orientation, but Jason suggests the addition of the words “and gender identity”. The Gender Nonconformity, Per Se, and Constructionist Approach have been successful in providing routes for contesting employment discrimination.
Liu, R., & Mustanski, B. (2012). Suicidal ideation and self-harm in lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth. American Journal Of Preventive Medicine, 42(3), 221-228.
Liu and Mustanski (2012), did a study analyzing youth members of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT), and suicidal ideation and self harm. The study found that youth that were part of the LGBT who had a history of attempted suicide, impulsivity, and low social support were associated with an increased risk for suicidal ideation” (p. 221). Furthermore, “female gender” with “childhood gender nonconformity; and prospective hopelessness and victimization were associated with greater self-harm” (p. 221).
Peate, I. (January 01, 2008). Understanding key issues in gender-variant children and young people. British Journal of Nursing (mark Allen Publishing), 17, 17, 25.
Peate discusses issues in gender variant children such as gender in society, gender variance and suggests possible interventions and key issues. In addition to possible interventions for children experiencing gender variances, Peate discusses the role of the nurse when caring for a patient with gender variance. By being knowledgeable about these key issues, may help in understanding these children and providing care to children with these issues.
Rieger, G., & Savin-Williams, R. (2012). Gender nonconformity, sexual orientation, and psychological well-being. Archives Of Sexual Behavior, 41(3), 611-621.
Rieger and Savin-Williams discuss the study done on sexual orientation, gender nonconformity, and well-being. Their studies showed that gender nonconformity and sexual orientation were correlated, however gender nonconforming people report a decrease in well-being than in same sex partners or bisexuals, and more so in men than in women. The Kaleidoscope of Gender. 2011. Spade and Valentine. Pine Forge Press. 3rd edition.
This book is a collaboration or work put together to define the Kaleidoscope of Gender. Spade and Valentine do a great job of defining terms of sociology of gender and providing articles written by various authors to support their evidence.
Thomas, R. N., & Blakemore, J. E. (January 01, 2013). Adults' attitudes about gender nonconformity in childhood. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 42, 3, 399-412.
Thomas and Blakemore present a study of adults’ attitudes and beliefs of children who are nonconforming. The study included 518 adults who took at 50 question questionnaire to determine the participants degree of masculinity and femininity. The study found that “gender non-conforming children would experience pressure to change their behavior, and that ultimate sexual orientation would be related to childhood gender nonconformity” (p.409). Dclow87 (talk) 04:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi folks,
So I plan to add some more information in the next week or two into the Children and Gender Variance section. I am going to add some information on the psychological well being of children who are gender non conforming. Dclow87 (talk) 07:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I just added a section to this article on the gender variance in children. The content synthesized a number of research articles and current material on this topic. Please do let me know if you have suggestions or can point to additional material to support this contribution. Dclow87 (talk) 21:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Edit for Dclow87
Hi Dclow87, I really enjoyed your wikipedia edit. I edited childhood gender nonconformity, so we had similar topics. The only things I would edit on your page are a few easy grammar mistakes. Putting commas before you start quotations in a sentence and a few little typos. It seems that you are referencing the authors of your research often. To make the sentences flow smoother you can paraphrase what they say and just make sure you cite the article at the end of the sentence or paragraph. Also, I am not sure that you need to put the year the article was written after you reference the authors last name, I believe that is what the reference is for. Other than that, this is a nice piece and definitely adds something to the page. Great job!
Nrudisill (talk) 05:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Definition: "Males and females" in the lead vs. being ambiguous
In this edit, I reverted Personman changing "does not match the gender roles set for males and females" to "does not match traditional gender roles," stating, "The previous wording is more accurate/precise. We should not be ambiguous on this. Also see WP:Lead." Hours later, Personman came back with this edit, stating, "'Males and females' is awkwardly clinical, and no less ambiguous than previously. Making explicit reference to sex assignment should help clarify the relationship between gender variance and intersex conditions, for instance." As seen in that same diff-link, I reverted, stating, "No, 'males and females' is primarily what gender roles is about -- applying them to those sexes, not intersex or every gender."
What I've stated on this matter is supported by WP:Reliable sources in the article. Being gender non-conforming or gender variant (or known by any of the other synonyms), as defined by the vast majority of WP:Reliable sources, means to "deviate" from the gender role expected of a male or female. And we should be explicitly clear about that, including in the lead. It does not mean deviating from third gender or deviating from any genderqueer identity. It specifically means that a male has deviated from the gender expectations of a boy or a man, or that a female has deviated from the gender expectations of girl or a woman. This does not exclude intersex people in any way; the lead does not state that males and females are the only sexes. But like I've made clear before (near the end of this section), "Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as XY female or XX male), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter, though the sex and gender distinction exists and third gender/genderqueer matters are usually formulated in gender terms (boy/man; girl/woman)... ...I'll grant you that I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and hermaphroditic non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article)." Flyer22 (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Contention over lead sentence
(I submitted the following and got an edit conflict with the above. Not sure what protocol is, so I'm just leaving my initial text here with this note. The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making.)
Flyer22 has twice reverted my edits to the lead sentence. The first time, e left the edit summary "The previous wording is more accurate/precise. We should not be ambiguous on this." I agree with the latter, though not the former, and thus reworded the section significantly to remove the mentioned ambiguity.
For reference, the versions in question are
Gender variance, or gender nonconformity, is behavior or gender expression by an individual that does match cultural expectations about the gender roles typically associated with that individual's sex assignment.
and
Gender variance, or gender nonconformity, is behavior or gender expression that does not match the gender roles set for males and females.
Flyer22 then reverted again with the message "No, "males and females" is primarily what gender roles is about -- applying them to those sexes, not intersex or every gender." This is simply false - intersex individuals are given sex assignments and gender assignments just the same as people without intersex conditions, and thus can perform gender variance just as well, and thus this article applies to them. Personman (talk) 04:47, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- I already replied above; therefore I removed your heading.
- I reiterate that I have various WP:Reliable sources that support my reverting you. Flyer22 (talk) 04:55, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- And pinging Personman just in case Personman missed what I stated above. Nowhere did I state that gender variance does not apply to intersex people. Flyer22 (talk) 04:59, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, I see by "The argument present in Flyer22's post above does not argue against the point I am actually making." text that Personman did read what I stated above. Oh well. Not a lot more for me to state on the matter then. I will be even clearer with this point, though: Many, perhaps most, intersex people would prefer that people stop thinking of them as some other sex that can't simply be male or female; again, the vast majority of them are biologically classified as male or female and identity as male or female. Flyer22 (talk) 05:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your removal of the heading caused our posts to be at the same level, with no break, which was confusing. I've reinserted it.
- Your rebuttal continue to miss my point - in no way am I suggesting anything like that about intersex people; in fact, I think my edit explicitly supports that position. You have not at any point explained what is ambiguous about my edit - it has almost exactly the same semantics as yours, without the awkwardness of calling humans "males and females", and without excluding those people who are neither male nor female, but who have nevertheless received sex assignments and have gender performances expected of them from which they can vary.
- You wrote "It specifically means that a male has deviated from the gender expectations of a boy or a man, or that a female has deviated from the gender expectations of girl or a woman." I don't understand this claim at all, and see no source for it. Googling a bit, I also can't find any source that restricts gender variance in this way. See for instance the entry here, which gives "behaving in a way which is perceived by others as being outside cultural gender norms", without any statement about the sex of the person doing the performing. Until you can provide some kind of evidence for your position, I'm reverting it. Personman (talk) 05:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)