| Revision as of 02:14, 20 February 2015 editKhartakhan (talk | contribs)74 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 10:57, 20 February 2015 edit undoRichard Keatinge (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers16,924 edits →Irrelevant or misrepresented info in Mongolic sectionNext edit → | ||
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| ::::The continuities mentioned are mostly those common to all Eurasian steppe cultures, plus some retrospectively adopted by the modern Mongolian state. They do not make a useful point here, and they are ill-referenced. Your reversion of my other changes was also unhelpful. ] (]) 07:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC) | ::::The continuities mentioned are mostly those common to all Eurasian steppe cultures, plus some retrospectively adopted by the modern Mongolian state. They do not make a useful point here, and they are ill-referenced. Your reversion of my other changes was also unhelpful. ] (]) 07:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC) | ||
| :::::I see that have added: | |||
| <i>The Xiongnu was the first ] of ]s.</i> which is unreferenced and appears to ignore the earlier Cimmerians and Scythians. | |||
| <i>Henning (1948) also exorcised the perpetual debate about equivalency of the numerous Chinese phonetic renditions of the word Hun and the Huns known from non-Chinese sources, by demonstrating an alphabetical form of the word coded in the Chinese as Xiongnu.</i> which is poor English and also takes a definite view of an ongoing debate. | |||
| And <i>A.Luvsandendev,<ref>{{cite book|last1=Denis|first1=Sinor|title=Aspects of Altaic Civilization III|accessdate=15 February 2015}}</ref> ] (Hungary), ], ],<ref name="crystal">Rashpunstag (1776) "'']''"</ref> ], ], ], ] and ],<ref>Ts. Baasansuren "The scholar who showed the true Mongolia to the world", Summer 2010 vol.6 (14) ''Mongolica'', pp.40</ref> insisted on a ] origin.<ref name="ethnic"/> Now, Hunnu or Hun (means "person" in Mongolian) empire are more commonly used in Mongolia.<ref name="lan"></ref><ref name="eth"></ref><ref name="origin"></ref> The Mongolian government celebrated the 2220th anniversary of the Foundation of Mongolia's Statehood—the Hun Empire in 2011.<ref>http://english.news.mn/content/26062.shtml</ref><ref>http://www.president.mn/eng/newsCenter/viewNews.php?newsId=288</ref> Mongolian archaeologists proposed that the ] people were the ancestors of the Xiongnu, while some scholars have suggested that the Xiongnu may have been the ancestors of the ].<ref name="Tumen">Tumen D., "Anthropology of Archaeological Populations from Northeast Asia page 25,27</ref> According to "]", (section Joujan), "Joujan's (]) another name was "]" or "Tartar" and they were Xiongnu's tribe". ] considered Xiongnu and ] to be two subgroups (or ]) of one ].<ref name="info">N.Bichurin "Collection of information on the peoples who inhabited Central Asia in ancient times", 1950, p. 227</ref> ] refers to the time of Modu Chanyu as "the remote times of our Chanyu" in his letter to Daoist ]".<ref name="Howorth"></ref> Cultures of the Xiongnu, ] ], ], ], ] and modern Mongols have many common things such as ], ], ] ], ], composite bow with horn, symbol and ].<ref>Н.Сэр-Оджав, Монголын эртний түүх. 1977</ref><ref></ref> Some cultural elements of the Xiongnu and Mongolic people including symbol with sun and moon, bow with horn weren't found among other cultures of the world.<ref name="ethnic"/> Current study says the Xiongnu used emblem with the sun and moon<ref name="Tahilt"/><ref name="edu"/> and the Mongolic peoples use emblem with the sun, moon and fire (see ], ], ], ], ], ]).</i> This is evidence of mediaeval and modern Mongolian polities claiming continuity with the Xiongnu (not, I feel, a point that we need to make in this article) but is otherwise either irrelevant or nonsense. To take only two examples, the three-layer horn, wood, and sinew ] is not unique to Xiongnu or Mongols or both, it has been widespread across the steppes and far beyond, there are some left in ]'s tomb about the time that the Xiongnu were forming a state. And the ] seems to have been devised about two millennia after the Xiongnu state disappeared. The paragraph needs removal. | |||
| You have also re-ordered a large paragraph discussing multi-ethnic theories into the Mongolic section where it is ill-placed. | |||
| I commend your insertion of the map, though its mention of "Proto-Mongols" does seem to be making a claim which needs better reference. ] | |||
| I look forward to your comments. ] (]) 10:57, 20 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Huns
In Hohhot there is a museum dedicated to the Xiongnu, and the info panels use the term Hun interchangeably with Xiongnu in English pointing out the meaning Hun in Mongolian today is 'Human', thus acknowledging the Xiongnu as proto-Mongolians.
- I wonder if that's because every man and his dog wants to claim that the Xiongnu were their ancestors? The truth is that no one actually knows. Philg88 09:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Wrong statements
No greco-roman author has called Magyars "Scythians". Magyars came in europe arround 8th century and there was no Roman empire, nor Greece. There was only Byzantine empire . The byzantine authors called Magyars not "Scythians" but turks, and "black turks"."Scythians" were called the Bulgars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Irrelevant or misrepresented info in Mongolic section
First, there is nothing in the cited sources that makes a connection between Mongol songs and those of the Xiongnu - that is simple and blatant misrepresentation of the sources and needs to be deleted. As for the sun and moon symbol, again none of the sources say anything connecting the Xiongnu symbols to those of any Mongol people. Using modern day flags with sun and moon symbols to make a connection is not only original research, but OR based on absurd logic - as if the fact that some public architecture in the UK and US is based on Greek forms meant that the ancient Greeks spoke a Germanic language. Adding this material despite its clear problems with OR and verifiability is also arguably tendentious. Ergative rlt (talk) 16:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- It's an official position of Mongolia. There is no similar symbol among other peoples of the world, isn't it? Coat of arms is not building. Coat of arms: "A coat of arms is a unique heraldic design". It's very strong cultural element. Khorichar (talk) 17:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- This does not in any way deal with the objections above. And to choose another example, the Great Seal of the United States features Latin language and Egyptian motifs, but does not make those peoples Germanic speakers. Ergative rlt (talk) 18:02, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed. The modern Mongolian population may reasonably claim some degree of continuity with the previous inhabitants of their territory, but the specific points mentioned are not useful for an encyclopedia. At this edit I have removed the obvious irrelevancies that Ergative rlt mentions, and taken the opportunity to do a little rearrangement. I have also used Hyun Jun Kim's recent book to make his point about multiethnicity. I have left in the moon and sun symbol, a nice picture which the source does identify as an example of a widespread Xiongnu symbol. Richard Keatinge (talk) 21:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Absurd. If various theories exist, then it's need to write its basis: Do Xiongnu and Mongolic peoples have any similar things? What cultural elements join them? etc. It is need to clarify similarity and difference between these ethnic groups, isn't it? Some users are dissatisfied because there are many similarities between Xiongnu and Mongolic people. Khorichar (talk) 02:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- The continuities mentioned are mostly those common to all Eurasian steppe cultures, plus some retrospectively adopted by the modern Mongolian state. They do not make a useful point here, and they are ill-referenced. Your reversion of my other changes was also unhelpful. Richard Keatinge (talk) 07:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- I see that your edits have added:
The Xiongnu was the first empire of nomadic peoples. which is unreferenced and appears to ignore the earlier Cimmerians and Scythians.
Henning (1948) also exorcised the perpetual debate about equivalency of the numerous Chinese phonetic renditions of the word Hun and the Huns known from non-Chinese sources, by demonstrating an alphabetical form of the word coded in the Chinese as Xiongnu. which is poor English and also takes a definite view of an ongoing debate.
And A.Luvsandendev, Bernát Munkácsy (Hungary), Henry Howorth, Rashpuntsag, Alexey Okladnikov, Peter Pallas, Isaak Schmidt, Nikita Bichurin and Byambyn Rinchen, insisted on a Mongolic origin. Now, Hunnu or Hun (means "person" in Mongolian) empire are more commonly used in Mongolia. The Mongolian government celebrated the 2220th anniversary of the Foundation of Mongolia's Statehood—the Hun Empire in 2011. Mongolian archaeologists proposed that the Slab Grave Culture people were the ancestors of the Xiongnu, while some scholars have suggested that the Xiongnu may have been the ancestors of the Mongols. According to "Book of Song", (section Joujan), "Joujan's (Rouran Khaganate) another name was "Tatar" or "Tartar" and they were Xiongnu's tribe". Nikita Bichurin considered Xiongnu and Xianbei to be two subgroups (or dynasty) of one ethnicity. Genghis Khan refers to the time of Modu Chanyu as "the remote times of our Chanyu" in his letter to Daoist Qiu Chuji". Cultures of the Xiongnu, Proto-Mongolic Xianbei, Rouran, Khitan people, medieval and modern Mongols have many common things such as yurt on cart, long song, composite bow, board game, composite bow with horn, symbol and tamga. Some cultural elements of the Xiongnu and Mongolic people including symbol with sun and moon, bow with horn weren't found among other cultures of the world. Current study says the Xiongnu used emblem with the sun and moon and the Mongolic peoples use emblem with the sun, moon and fire (see Flag of Mongolia, Emblem of Mongolia, Soyombo symbol, Flag of the Republic of Buryatia, Coat of arms of the Republic of Buryatia, Flag of the Inner Mongolian People's Party). This is evidence of mediaeval and modern Mongolian polities claiming continuity with the Xiongnu (not, I feel, a point that we need to make in this article) but is otherwise either irrelevant or nonsense. To take only two examples, the three-layer horn, wood, and sinew composite bow is not unique to Xiongnu or Mongols or both, it has been widespread across the steppes and far beyond, there are some left in Tutankhamun's tomb about the time that the Xiongnu were forming a state. And the Soyombo symbol seems to have been devised about two millennia after the Xiongnu state disappeared. The paragraph needs removal.
You have also re-ordered a large paragraph discussing multi-ethnic theories into the Mongolic section where it is ill-placed.
I commend your insertion of the map, though its mention of "Proto-Mongols" does seem to be making a claim which needs better reference.
I look forward to your comments. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:57, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Denis, Sinor. Aspects of Altaic Civilization III.
{{cite book}}:|access-date=requires|url=(help) - Rashpunstag (1776) "The Crystal Beads"
- Ts. Baasansuren "The scholar who showed the true Mongolia to the world", Summer 2010 vol.6 (14) Mongolica, pp.40
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
ethnicwas invoked but never defined (see the help page). - А.Шабалов, Монгольские слова в языке хунну (Russian)
- А..Шабалов. Проблемы этнической принадлежности хунну в трудах современных тувинских ученых (Russian)
- А.Шабалов Происхождение уйгуров, курыкан,(бурят,калмыков, якутов) и других телэских племен XVIII до.н.э.- XIV в.н.э
- http://english.news.mn/content/26062.shtml
- http://www.president.mn/eng/newsCenter/viewNews.php?newsId=288
- Tumen D., "Anthropology of Archaeological Populations from Northeast Asia page 25,27
- N.Bichurin "Collection of information on the peoples who inhabited Central Asia in ancient times", 1950, p. 227
- Henry Howorth (1880) "History of the Mongols from the 9th to the 19th Century"
- Н.Сэр-Оджав, Монголын эртний түүх. 1977
- Mongolian traditional folk song UNESCO.org
- Cite error: The named reference
Tahiltwas invoked but never defined (see the help page). - Cite error: The named reference
eduwas invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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