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Sam Harris (author)

Note: Previous AN/I thread

Could an admin please visit this article and determine if temporary page protection is necessary while a BLP dispute is resolved? One editor appears intent on repeatedly re-inserting contentious, negative "opinions" about the living person simply because those opinions were found in blogs, op-eds, books, etc. Over the objections of several other editors, the editor keeps reverting any attempt to bring the content into BLP and NPOV policy compliance. When the problematic content was moved to the Talk page for discussion and dispute resolution, he re-inserted it again without addressing concerns. The subject of the article is a vocal critic of religion, most recently of Islam, so it doesn't help that this is a current event hot topic. This one editor has spent the past week inserting various forms of insinuated racism, bigotry, warmongering, Islamophobia, Jewish tribalism, academic dishonesty, right-wing ideologue fascism, etc., with no regard for impartiality or balance.

Disclosure: I'm one of the involved editors at the article. While there have been no technical violations of 3RR, there is still edit warring, and the ratio of productive discourse—to—reverting is not encouraging. And now there appears to be personal sniping. This matter is also related to the above open issue, but since no one reads the top half of this noticeboard anymore, I thought I would renew attention by requesting a single specific action: temporary page protection. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I also want to point out that concerns have been made about that user's behavior just this morning in that previous thread. Despite being warned just a few days ago the personal attacks and defamatory comments have yet to cease and an administrator hasn't responded. You can view those concerns in the update section.LM2000 (talk) 23:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

• Bulleted list item

I've noted this WP:FORUMSHOPPING thread and have no qualms about indicating that it is yet another iteration in a continual string of disruptive, POV pushing WP:GAMING in relation to the content dispute described by Xenophrenic.

This is increasingly looking like something I'm going to have to bring up with ArbCom.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, it's kind of ridiculous for you to accuse Xenophrenic of WP:FORUMSHOPPING when you brought the current debate on the Sam Harris article to this noticeboard first, don't you think? With regard to Harris article, I see one editor pushing a biased POV and one editor being disruptive by working against consensus and making spurious claims of bad behavior by other editors. That editor is you, Ubikwit. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Jweiss11:} Don't you think one thread is enough?

You and I are obviously on the opposite sides of the content dispute, and you and Xenophrenic have been editing that page since long before I arrived (not the case for LM2000). Accordingly, you and Xenophrenic might be partially responsible for the promotional bloat of primary sourced text in the article, but you are certainly responsible for excluding critical material while including all sort of vacuous praise from like-minded atheists, etc. That is an inverse form of POV pushing, because the end result is that you and Xenophrenic and other people trying to exclude reliably sourced criticism in violation of NPOV are skewing the article. Remember, it was you that deleted a Political section including RS material related to characterizations of "right-wing neoconservative policies" and "the national security state" and replaced that section with a "Social and economic politics". I have already indicated to you in a very civil manner that you have a competence issue with respect to the article, yet you persist in trying to push your ill-informed POV at me while conflating religion and politics, disparaging academic sources and professors of history and theology, etc. I'm through talking to you per WP:DENY. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 07:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, I've made a lot of edits to the Sam Harris article, but they have be mostly of the maintenance, copy-editing variety. I'm not responsible for any of the bloat in the article, nor am I really reasonable for writing much, if any, of the substantive content.

Xenophrenic made it clear that he has created this thread in an attempt to renew attention to the issue since it may have been buried here. Whatever the case, you are evading the hypocrisy of your WP:FORUMSHOPPING accusation. Your claim about my competence is ridiculous. I am very well-versed with Sam Harris's work and its criticism. I understand that some people like to treat religion and politics as if they are two entirely different animals, but it is a fact the religions in questions here are political and that the politics of religious people are informed by their religious beliefs. More generally, just because different departments on a college campus tend to reside in different buildings, that doesn't mean the things they study are actually disparate. And we're not beholden to honor that academic silo-ing in every section of every article on Misplaced Pages, particularly when the subject is a person who has made criticisms of religions that focus in large part on the real-world, political impact of religion. I deleted the "Political" section because it was a poorly-defined, redundant concoction that you designed to serve as repository for an unbalanced assault on Harris that includes defamatory commentary. The consensus of involved editors at the article seems to agree with my assessment and action.

If anyone lacks competence, it's you with regard to your poor understanding and application of various Misplaced Pages principles, e.g when you claimed that my talk page commentary constituted original research—an utter contradiction in terms—or just now with your FORUMSHOPPING accusation, of which you either lack the sensibility to understand or the intellectual honesty to admit your hypocrisy. Jweiss11 (talk) 08:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I had NAC'd this because a request for arbitration was opened, but since that seems to be headed toward being declined (5 decline votes at this time), I've re-opened it for further community comment. BMK (talk) 01:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I've withdrawn the request for arbitration. Is there any way to combine this thread with the related thread that preceded it?
--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 02:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need to cut and paste that very long thread here. Links should be sufficient. BMK (talk) 04:25, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed another disturbing comment by Xenophreic that I missed

Misplaced Pages policy will not allow you to advance your "Harris hates Islam because he's Jewish" narrative in that manner. By way of example: suppose I found a source on a blog who claimed Ubikwit traffics in child pornography, and I placed that information into a BLP about Ubikwit. When you inevitably complain and deny it, I assure you "the source was used as opinion and the statement attributed" so you must leave it in your biography. I'll even supply another source who agrees with the first source. But you are welcome to insert a denial after it, of course. Sounds like there should be a Misplaced Pages policy against me being able to do that, don't you agree?

That kind of analogy is simply unacceptable. It is uncivil and represents a battlefield mentality. The fact that there was no BLP violation in the quote had already been determined on the relevant BLP/N thread, and the assertion that I was advancing a narrative of "Harris hates Islam because he's Jewish" is a personal attack.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 12:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

If you found a source which said "Willis Warf says George Gnarh is a pedophile" - would you find it remotely usable as a source for a claim in Gnarph's BLP "Gnarph has been called a pedophile"? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Do not presume to speak for me in your edit summary. Your hypothetical scenario is not analogous, so it is curious that you would repeat the personal attack in order to try to defend Xenophrenic's grossly insulting and offensive post, which needs to be revdeleted.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

As I did not "repeat the personal attack" but you were the only one who "repeated the personal attack" I m a tad bemused by your post supra. And I believe if you want something revdeled which you iterate, there is a logical disconnect. Collect (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

My question to you, Ubikwit, was absolutely civil and in no way a personal attack. If you find the analogies disturbing, then they have served their purpose in conveying to you how offensive some of your edits and proposed edits are. You have repeatedly argued to insert the caustic opinions of a few critics into a biography of a living person, with disregard for Misplaced Pages policies:

• On the other hand, do you think Hussain claims Harris is racist? We could easily add that back based on statements like (insert opinion piece calling the subject a racist)
• The Aljazeera article does include a fairly detailed examination of the indirect implications of racism, though, in terms of discourse analysis. (insert opinion piece in which the writer says he doesn't want to discuss the subject's racism, but his bigotry and irrational anti-Muslim animus).
• The article in the Independent is a definitely news piece that serves as a secondary source for all of the above. and yes, Hussain characterizes Harris as promoting "scientific racism", as is emphasized in the article in the Independent. (insert quote from The Independent saying that someone accused the subject of racism)
• Reliably published statements of both Hussain and Lears support the association of ideas espoused by Harris with scientific racism. ... It really doesn't matter if you don't like that. It is not a BLP violation to include those characterizations with proper attribution. Retract your personal attack accusing me of smearing, etc.
• As I've pointed out, since Harris is not published by peer-reviewed academic presses, which are generally considered the highest level of sources on Misplaced Pages, when he makes outlandish, bigoted, war-mongering statements, he is likely to be subject to severe criticism by bona fide scholars in the fields that his popular works relate.

You inserted the contentious opinion that Harris is Muslim-bashing because he is Jewish here, and simultaneously edit-warred to categorize the avowed atheist as "Jewish". That's not a personal attack, that is substantiated fact. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I am upset over the ArbCom forumshopping exercise and other examples of tendentiousness from one editor at this point. 40,000 characters cumulative edits on Sam Harris' BLP alone (much of which is essentially refusing to admit he has no support for his edits, so he keeps adding them in, over and over and over). 24,000 characters on noticeboards in 3 days. Over 60,000 characters on the SH talk page in under one week. When an editor hits over 120,000 characters in under a single week without apparently managing to get any support from other editors, I suspect "tendentious" is applicable. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom as forumshopping, that's funny.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly what it was. Collect (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Does an administrator want to touch this issue? DGG expressed surprise that this has been able to go on as long as it has. Ubikwit has already been warned in the previous AN/I thread but the behavioral problems have not subsided. Just to recap: we have now had two threads on AN/I, two RfCs, one declined ArbCom case, one BLP/N thread and nobody has voiced support for Ubikwit's edits. He edit-warred and attempted to reinsert contentious material into the BLP 16 times. There is a detailed account of Ubikwit's bad behavior personal attacks in the subsection of the thread linked at the top, this was compiled after Robert McClenon warned him. Ubikwit has failed to interpret basic policy correctly; besides the obvious DUE, BRD, CONSENSUS and NPOV issues, he accused Jweiss11 of WP:OR for critiquing his comments on the talk page. He has also claimed that practically everybody on the talk page is lacking WP:COMPETENCE. After previously being warned here that this was a content dispute in the first thread, he took this to ArbCom where it was declined for (among other reasons) being a content dispute; then he projects his WP:FORUMSHOPPING onto others.LM2000 (talk) 18:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The topic involves current events involving religion, violence and a bit of contention. That alone will ward off a lot of volunteers from getting involved, but it isn't as bad as some of the issues above. Anyone? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Misrepresenting sources and other editors

First of all, I was not warned in the above-linked AN/I thread, so LM2000 is simply repeating the lie to that effect from his statement at the request for arbitration statement]. @Robert McClenon: suggested that the thread be closed with a warning to me before I responded to the concerns and posted more details about a couple of problematic editing issues. The thread was not closed, and calls for a BOOMERANG ignored. Xenophrenic continues to flaunt WP:SUMMARYSTYLE with respect to the lead, as can bee seen in this edit reverting to his preferred version including [[WP:PEACOCK|peacocky}} paraphrasing based on a one-off comment in a non-mainstream source, and a self-serving one-off quote from a primary source. The mainstream view is obfuscated by the text. Jweiss11 (talk · contribs)'s disposition toward advocacy on this article is revealed by the contradictions in his statement at the request for arbitration, which I briefly characterized in relation to his repeated removal of criticisms based on the political ramifications of Harris statements because he doesn't like them. Regarding Collect's allegation of forumshopping at ArbCom, note that @NativeForeigner: has indicated that he would be willing to look at this in that forum should the community processes fail to resolve the dispute. So I'm back here at AN/I working through the community channels, but the request was not seen as frivolous, just premature. I should hope that there would be some input from uninvolved admins here soon on this second AN/I thread.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 23:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Three uninvolved users told you that you brought a content dispute to AN/I, Robert McClenon described your behavior as a "tantrum" and suggested you receive a strong warning. He also gave you a warning on your talk page regarding your behavior on BLP issues. You acknowledged the warning but denied any wrongdoing and continued to edit war and dump massive amounts of contentious material into the BLP.LM2000 (talk) 00:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You are arguing semantics. That first AN/I thread should have been a wake-up call and unfortunately it was not.LM2000 (talk) 20:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The statement I made in requesting arbitration is here.

@LM2000: An alert regarding discretionary sanctions is not a warning. Your comment at ArbCom read, "Robert McClenon described the scene as a "tantrum" and ended up giving Ubikwit a warning", which seems to link the comment in the AN/I thread with the "warning" per the recommendation made early in the thread.

Xenophrenic continues to attempt to divert attention from his disruptive POV pushing by making false allegations about long-ago resolved content disputes, but here is further context. First, Jonotrain inserted the Sayeed quote, as follows.

According to Greenwald, Harris relies on this view of Islam to justify torture, anti-Muslim profiling, and the Israeli occupation. Greenwald sees the double standard in Harris' writings as a symptom of Islamophobia: "...he and others like him spout and promote Islamophobia under the guise of rational atheism." Theodore Sayeed, another critic of Harris, also sees a dichotomy in Harris' treatment of the world's religions: "For a man who likes to badger Muslims about their “reflexive solidarity” with Arab suffering, Harris seems keen to display his own tribal affections for the Jewish state."

Second, When I moved the quote to the Political section, it was prefaced by the following text, which presented a balanced view of the debate in accord with NPOV.

Writing for Truthdig, Harris stated

It now appears to be a truism in foreign policy circles that real reform in the Muslim world cannot be imposed from the outside. But it is important to recognize why this is so—it is so because the Muslim world is utterly deranged by its religious tribalism."

On his blog, Harris states

I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.

He then says "if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state".

Third, I replaced the text with the following quote after the BLP/N thread, even though that thread found no BLP issue with it.

In a Mondoweiss article praised by Greenwald, Theodore Sayeed stated, "Any review of Sam Harris and his work is a review essentially of politics".

Fourth, it was me that removed the racism allegation from the lead, even though there are a number of sources supporting the allegation with respect to statements on profiling, etc. that Harris has made. The I started this thread and commented on Steeletrap (talk · contribs)'s UT page after Steeletrap re-added it to the lead./br>--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 01:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Attempts to dismiss peer-reviewed history book

Xenophrenic attempts to dismiss a peer-reviewed book by a career academic published by an academic press.

@Second Quantization: does same, making incoherent claim about paraphrasing, misunderstanding NPOV and RS.

Refusing to get the point, SQ continues to push ill-informed POV; apparently, he couldn't take the time to check the links I provided to Palgrave’s website, asserting that the title of the book was “controversial”.

Finally, SQ falsely accuses me (“No offence”) of BLP violations, because he doesn’t like what the RS say (aside from the fact that he mischaracterizes my edits), but refuses to take claims to BLP/N. WP:NPA.

Xenophrenic comes back and insinuates that Lears was calling Harris a Nazi, attempting to dismiss another source by an professor of history, and grossly misrepresenting my edits at the same time, while also stating

That is fine information for the Positivism article, and I don't disagree with Lears' assertion that there were elements of positivism at the core of social Darwinism, scientific racism and emperialism in the nineteenth century. I'll work to paraphrase it if I ever edit that article and see a need to introduce that information.

An RS/N thread had to be opened to prove that the book is a peer-reviewed monograph.
--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 03:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't mind so much having to repeatedly correct Ubikwit's misrepresentation of sources, it's part of the job as a volunteer editor. I should not, however, have to keep correcting his misrepresentations about what I've said or done:

Xenophrenic continues to flaunt WP:SUMMARYSTYLE with respect to the lead, as can bee seen in this edit

Yes, check the edit and see that it was a simple BRD revert with a note directing you to the Talk page where that text was already being discussed - no flaunting involved. You are welcome to criticize my edits all you want, but you need not outright lie, Ubikwit.

Xenophrenic continues to attempt to divert attention from his disruptive POV pushing by making false allegations about long-ago resolved content disputes, but here is further context.

No "false allegations" cited by you in your comment, I see. That is typical. The issue you partially described was indeed long-ago resolved when it was discovered that you had taken a Harris quote out of context by cleverly omitting his disclaimer to the reader that the quote you repeated would sound "paradoxical" and that he was actually still "undecided" on that issue. And the BLP/N thread did not support your use of the Mondoweiss text.

Xenophrenic attempts to dismiss a peer-reviewed book by a career academic published by an academic press.

You need not outright lie, Ubikwit. Anyone who reads my response, which you linked, will see that rather than dismiss the source, I asked: What content, specifically, were you intending to use from the book to improve the Sam Harris article? Could you propose some text here? I did point out that the book was a critique of atheism written by a priest, and had never been cited, but rather than "dismiss" the book, I urged you to continue with your proposal to use the source.

Xenophrenic comes back and insinuates that Lears was calling Harris a Nazi...

Again with the lies, Ubikwit? That one is so blatant, you didn't even attempt to substantiate it. Your Lears piece does the insinuation. Here is exactly what I said about it from the article Talk page:

here is my understanding of Lears' assertions in the most basic terms: New Atheists demand reliance on science instead of religion → this strikes Lears as a form of "positivism" → and by the way dear reader, positivism also played a part in "social Darwinism", "scientific racism" and "imperialism" in the nineteenth century, and resulted in the 20th century Nazi use of eugenics → (cue ominous music here). Lears deftly avoids directly accusing the new atheists of racism and imperialism, but still manages to execute Godwin's Law.

Lies don't work, Ubikwit. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I think your statement about what I said is utterly bizarre (you do know that people can click and see what I wrote right?). This has been your approach in some of the things I have noticed:

1. You get a book that agrees with your point of view.

2. You don't mention it's written by a priest (in the discussion or the article) or that the book is just published. The book is also clearly for a popular audience as anyone can see from skimming it, it is not a normal academic monograph, even if it is peer reviewed (books for a popular audience are peer reviewed too).

3. You choose to include the most inflammatory statement you can find in the book and provide no context at all in the wikipedia article.

Further,

4. ... and accusing someone of denialism (rather than say just being bad at history) in your title is controversial.

Also, separately, what's most bizarre is that you seem to see no issue with adding statements which attempt to link someone with racism by association. Including that quote by Lear is clearly problematic. Second Quantization (talk) 19:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@Second Quantization: The book is a peer-reviewed publication by an academic press by a career professor of history (forty years).

That means that the statements in the book have been vetted by other "mainstream historians", a group to which he specifically refers in the opening paragraph of the Intro and which includes Jackson Lears.

The title of the book and the statements it makes are not inherently "controversial" among mainstream historians. There have not been any reviews of the book or citations yet, so we'll have to wait to gauge its reception. The book is a monograph on a very specific topic, your baseless assertion that it is "for a popular audience" is only indicative of the fact that you are a member of the so-called "popular audience", and your attempt to dismiss the per-reviewed book because of its author's religious affiliation is tendentious. I have mentioned competence to you for these reasons, as I see your training is in the applied sciences. Note that neither you nor any other supporters of Harris have produced a single peer-reviewed source supporting any of your groundless opinions. I, on the other hand, happen to have an academic background in history.

Linking the ideas espoused by someone with an ideology that "gave rise to" scientific racism and imperialism" is a fully valid criticism made by more than one RS and supported by mainstream historians. Your crying wolf about BLP is a personal attack. Next time, raise the issue at BLP/N, per policy. Do not disruptively delete text sourced to peer-reviewed publications from fields outside of your scope of competence. I would never do the same on an article dealing with physics.

And this is a personal attack.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:24, 07:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

"Your crying wolf about BLP is a personal attack." That's a bit rich coming from the guy who is claiming I'm incompetent because I'm not a professional historian. Are you claiming to be a professional historian? Do you think we all need to be professional historians or else we are automatically incompetent? Does merely disagreeing with your use of sources make someone automatically incompetent? Does having studied history mean you are suddenly bias free? "Do not disruptively delete text sourced to peer-reviewed publications from fields outside of your scope of competence" You might want to look before you blab away about incompetence, because I haven't actually edited the particular source under discussion one way or the other.

" There have not been any reviews of the book or citations yet, so we'll have to wait to gauge its reception." That's what you are meant to do before trying to stick a source in an article. Your problem is you are trying to stick the sources in before we've seen it's impact, which is what I stated from the very beginning, Second Quantization (talk) 13:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

...and FYI on another point you keep ignoring. You say "That means that the statements in the book have been vetted by other "mainstream historians"" but you simply aren't using the book for any historical fact in the article at all. You are using the source to insinuate that someone is a denialist without bothering to put in any reason why that conclusion follows at all. You are defending the reliability of the historical content of the book but you aren't using any of the historical content of the book. Second Quantization (talk) 14:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You should quit while your ahead. Don't misrepresent my edits, even if you don't understand them. Painter is a secondary source for Lears (on Harris), first of all. Both of them are "mainstream historians", academics. Note the quote from Harris; Painter is also a secondary source on Harris. You are correct that I don't use anything more specific from Painter, because I would want to read the book first, but he is useful for prefacing and supporting statements by Lears on Harris, and putting those in perspective.

Borden W. Painter turns to Lears critical analysis in his book The New Atheist Denial of History, stating that Lears “had raised significant historical points” overlooked in the historiography of Harris and other New Atheists. Painter cites a quotation from Harris at the opening of the Introduction to the book

and then states that

his abstract appeals to history and evidence-based reasoning fail when measured against the concrete conclusions of mainstream historians concerning the topics he addresses in making his case against religion throughout all history.
--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit. You are battling away with multiple editors and then tell me to drop the stick. You should step back and maybe get some perspective. I made some pretty normal observations (some of which you appear to concede such as the book lacking critical response while not admitting I raised it in the first place) and your response was to become completely unreasonable and start attacking me, Second Quantization (talk) 09:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. You started the attacking, and tendentiously insisted that the book was not a monograph, it was not peer-reviewed, the author is a priest, etc.

The peer-reviewed academic book does not require "critical response" before being used.

You have continually attempted to substantiate one groundless objection after another. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

"insisted that the ... the author is a priest". Eh? Are you claiming that the author is not in fact a priest? The fact is, it isn't a academic monograph as is obvious to anyone looking at it except you seemingly. User @Xenophrenic: already rang them and they didn't confirm it was peer reviewed. Why was that do you think, if everything they do is peer reviewed as you claimed? ... and yes, we do wait for critical response to literature often, particularly where controversial so we can judge due weight. You said you were ready to ring Palgrave to see if the book was a monograph or not before Ubikwit, so maybe it's best if you do that for your own sake, Second Quantization (talk) 18:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, now you misrepresent the RS/N thread in which you finally admitted that you
"have no doubts the book is peer reviewed for it's historical content", insisting that you "simply doubt it's an academic monograph", despite the fact that Abecedare, an uninvolved admin, had concluded that is was a monograph, and that and @Margin1522:, also uninvolved, had weighed in positively as well.

Xenophrenic also ignored Abedcedare's initial statement and continued to insist that the book was not peer-reviewed, to which Abecedare replied

...some of the other issues being raised, such as whether or not the book is a "monograph", or whether the concerned editor at Palgrave still works at the company (?!) etc are non sequiturs not really relevant to the issue of reliability on wikipedia. Most of the sources currently cited in the Sam Harris article are newspaper/magazine articles that aren't always written by specialists; aren't peer-reviewed; and don't receive post-publication reviews. Yet, barring exceptional circumstances, they are generally considered reliable sources on wikipedia for such contemporary biography articles. Of course better sources should be used whenever available, and this book as a lengthy review of Harris/Dawkins/Hitchens work by a history professor and published by an academic press is one such preferred source. I am not sure why novel standards are being invented in judging this particular source.

And I never said I would call Palgrave, but it seemed that was what you were tendentiously demanding.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Lying doesn't work, Ubikwit. You do realize everything you say can be easily looked up and checked, right? I have never ignored a statement of Abecedare's. Xenophrenic (talk) 16:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The Nazi allegation regarding Jackson Lears article

He did so in a misplaced comment, here on the RS/N thread, so I missed it.

this book is being used primarily as a vehicle to usher in Lears material as a credible source. Objections have been raised to that because Lears has tried to tie Sam Harris with "scientific racism"/"Nazi eugenics" based on the commonality that both rely on science (see positivism)

Content disputes are content disputes, but misrepresenting a source in that manner, invoking Godwin's law, is extremely tendentious, and so I'm going to post the relevant passages from Lears.

Positivist assumptions provided the epistemological foundations for Social Darwinism and pop-evolutionary notions of progress, as well as for scientific racism and imperialism. These tendencies coalesced in eugenics, the doctrine that human well-being could be improved and eventually perfected through the selective breeding of the “fit” and the sterilization or elimination of the “unfit.”
…Two world wars, the systematic slaughter of innocents on an unprecedented scale, the proliferation of unimaginably destructive weapons, brushfire wars on the periphery of empire—all these events involved, in various degrees, the application of scientific research to advanced technology. All showed that science could not be elevated above the agendas of the nation-state: the best scientists were as corruptible by money, power or ideology as anyone else, and their research could as easily be bent toward mass murder as toward the progress of humankind. Science was not merely science. The crowning irony was that eugenics, far from “perfecting the race,” as some American progressives had hoped early in the twentieth century, was used by the Nazis to eliminate those they deemed undesirable. Eugenics had become another tool in the hands of unrestrained state power.

Incidentally, I've already referred, at Talkhere and here, to this response by Harvard professor Steve Pinker, who quotes almost the exact same passage that I did above, in its entirety in his article, with the preface

This passage, from a 2011 review in The Nation of three books by Sam Harris by the historian Jackson Lears, makes the standard case for the prosecution by the left.

There are more secondary sources on Lears than Painter, but Painter, like Lears, is an academic and a mainstream historian.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:13, 27 February 2015 (UTC)--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 20:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Have a couple of gallons of tea, please. Collect (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Again with the lies, Ubikwit? Lying doesn't work here, as everything you say can be easily looked up and checked. A quick review of Lears book review shows that he has indeed tried to tie Sam Harris with "scientific racism"/"Nazi eugenics" based on the commonality that both rely on science:

Positivist assumptions provided the epistemological foundations for Social Darwinism and pop-evolutionary notions of progress, as well as for scientific racism and imperialism. These tendencies coalesced in eugenics, the doctrine that human well-being could be improved and eventually perfected through the selective breeding of the “fit” and the sterilization or elimination of the “unfit.” Every schoolkid knows about what happened next: the catastrophic twentieth century. The crowning irony was that eugenics, far from “perfecting the race,” as some American progressives had hoped early in the twentieth century, was used by the Nazis to eliminate those they deemed undesirable. The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, injected positivism with a missionary zeal. one cannot deny that embraced, from a safe distance, the “war on terror” as an Enlightenment crusade. He was not alone. Other intellectuals fell into line, many holding aloft the banner of science and reason against the forces of “theocratic barbarism.” Most prominent were the intellectuals the media chose to anoint, with characteristic originality, as the New Atheists, a group that included Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. As in the golden age of positivism, a notion of sovereign science is enlisted in the service of empire.

Would you like me to now quote the insinuation you proposed to introduce into the Harris BLP from that source for good measure? Xenophrenic (talk) 16:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not the one that needs the tea.

Xenophrenic's repeated attempts to dismiss these sources (both Lears and Painter) against policy and across multiple forums is the height of tendentiousness.

Pinker's characterization makes it eminently clear that Lears' presentation of the "standard case" is a mainstream view among academic historians, such as Painter.

Invoking Godwin's law against a mainstream scholar to dismiss a source that has cites in multiple high-quality secondary sources blatantly contravenes core policies. Xenophrenic should be blocked for his personal attacks (accusing me of "lying", etc.) and topic banned for this continuing string of offenses, including violations of WP:TALK, WP:BLPREMOVE, WP:NPOV and WP:RS.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 05:38, 15:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Lying doesn't work, Ubikwit. Cite just one instance where "Xenophrenic attempts to dismiss sources against policy and across multiple forums", rather than discussing the sources in the context of how you plan to use them, as policy dictates. Your Lears source brought up Nazi's (see Godwin's Law), Ubikwit, not me; I just quoted him. Lying doesn't work, Ubikwit. You know I will call you on every instance of fabrication. Xenophrenic (talk) 16:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

deliberately violating an apparent RfC consensus

Talk:Sam_Harris_(author)#RfC appears to me to show a clear consensus. Six editors !voted against using a source which was used for: Theodore Sayeed also sees a dichotomy in Harris' treatment of the world's religions: "For a man who likes to badger Muslims about their “reflexive solidarity” with Arab suffering, Harris seems keen to display his own tribal affections for the Jewish state."

This edit re-added the source and added claims in Misplaced Pages's voice (changes bolded).

Some commentators have asserted that Harris's criticisms exhibit prejudice and intolerance, while others have praised his unapologetic directness as long overdue. After the attacks on the World Trade Center, Harris broadened his critical focus on Islam, which has resulted in death threats. Some critics equate his focus on Islam and advocacy of policies such as profiling of Muslims and support for torture with Islamophobia. Harris and others have said his critics misuse the term in an attempt to silence criticism.<ref> "Sam Harris, torture, quotation", Andrew Brown, The Guardian, August 8, 2009</ref><ref>End of Profiling: Letter to Sam Harris, Letter to Sam Harris, Michael Mungai, Huffingtong Post, July 1, 2012</ref><ref>Sam Harris in full: court intellectual, mystic, and supporter of the Iraq war, Theodore Sayeed, Mondoweiss, Septemeber 4, 2012</ref><ref> Sam Harris, Will You Visit A Mosque With Me?, Chris Stedman, Huffington Post, July 2, 2012</ref>

Note the fact references include the disallowed Sayeed source which we had a specific RfC on, an Andrew Brown commentary labeled as such, a HuffPo "blog letter" from Michael Mungai, and a nice screed by Chris Stedman also a HuffPo blog letter. The other refs added are found through a google search for "Sam Harris" and "bias" but which unfortunately does not make the claim the editor wished for, and (Aside: I love the really useful quote in it "Last question, Chris. Something on a hopeful note. You’ve been a reporter who actually has lived in the Middle East and actually talked to Muslims and seen them first hand. You have this rich tradition of learning Christianity, Christian morals, Christian ethics and seen the rise of the American Christian fascist movement. What can be done, on a global scale, perhaps, for Muslims and Christians – well intentioned ones – to wrest away the control of their religiosity and religions by self interested political individuals, like the ones you’ve mentioned. What can be done to reclaim the faith?") a pure blog post by Wajahat Ali. Patheos fails RS as it is specifically " the premier online destination to engage in the global dialogue about religion and spirituality and to explore and experience the world's beliefs." Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_182#Patheos.com, Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_167#Patheos_blogs each finding that the blogs are not RS, but depend on if the persons are notable. In the case at hand, the answer is "no".

So we have deliberate violation of apparent consensus, and use of a source specifically disallowed, and use of sources for contentious claims made in Misplaced Pages's voice using "commentary" and editorial opinion columns. I suggest that we have a problem here. Collect (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

References

1. The New Atheist Denial of History Borden W. Painter Jr, Palgrave Macmillan, 2014, pp. 145-6
2. Politics and Religion in the New Century: Philosophical Reflections, Philip Andrew Quadrio, Sydney University Press, 2009, p.13
3. "Author Chris Hedges: “The new atheists are secular fundamentalists”, by Wajahat Ali, June 29, 2008
4. Atheists Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris face Islamophobia backlash; The Independent; April 12, 2013

• The RFC is specifically centered around the quote from Sayeed, which Ubikwit did not restore in any form. What's the problem? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Sayeed was not notable per most (5 of the six) opinions at the RfC. Collect (talk) 15:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    • If you want to achieve consensus to leave out the citation, you should start a new RFC that asks that question. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
      • If you wish to start a debating society as to whether when 5 out of 6 people say the person is not notable whether that conversation is not actually part of the RfC but should be made a separate RfC to establish that it is the opinion of 5 out of 6 of those people, then that is a wondrously byzantine argument. Cheers Collect (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It's readily apparent where the byzantine arguments are coming from. What is the policy for people that know the rules but feign ingnoramance?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:05, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yet another revert at :

Retains blog post from Patheos for which the apparent quote from a notable person would be "I mean Sam Harris, in his book The End of Faith, asks us to consider carrying out a nuclear first strike on the Arab world. He has a long defense of torture. Christopher Hitchens is an apologist for pre-emptive war and also speaks in the crude, racist terms that Harris uses to describe 1 billion people – one fifth of the world’s population." which is used as a cite for an apparent claim of fact "After the attacks on the World Trade Center"(ref). As a source for that phrase, the blog fails, but it seems primarily centered on a quite inadmissible opinion of Hedges which would not be allowed in any BLP except absolutely cited as the opinion only of Hedges. It offers no actual support to the phrase for which it is used as a cite. It also reinstates the two HuffPo blog posts which do not actually support the claims of fact made. Adding specifically problematic sources to any BLP, after one has been told they are problematic, I find troubling indeed. Collect (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC) Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Collect, you took Sayeed to BLP/N, receiving a "no BLP violation". Now you are asserting that it is not RS?

And the column of Andrew Brown (writer) (also on the editorial board) and the individuals with official blogs on Guardian and Huffington Post are not RS for opinion?

You failed to wikilink Chris Hedges, who is also (block)quoted by Greenwald in the Guardian

"They're secular fundamentalists. . . . I find that it's, like the Christian right, a fear based movement. It's a movement that is very much a reaction to 9/11.

. Hedges' book (academic press) might be a good source, and here's another interview from Salon.

And the Patheos interview was not used to source "bias". I eliminated "bias", using "prejudice" instead, because there's a peer-reviewed source by an academic, quoting "Dr. Peter Slezak is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University of New South Wales".--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:47, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Violations of WP:TALK, non-stop tendentious reverting and gaming

Please check this thread in the Talk page, and the related edits/reverts.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 11:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

4RR - and the complainant Ubikwit above is the blatant Edit Warrior - will someone take action finally?

Note: 15:48 25 Feb clear revert 3:49 26 Feb clear revert 8:56 et seq 26 Feb clear reverts 11:49 26 Feb clear revert Making absolutely clear 4RR within 20 hours when he is making complaints here about the edits of others!

Will someone finally stop this edit warrior - this is well beyond risible behaviour. He wants this dealt with at AN/I per a number of posts <g> so he can not assert he does not know his own behaviour here is fully actionable. Collect (talk) 13:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you serious? The first diff is me deleting my own insertion of a source because you objected to it.

The assertion that that is a revert would appear to be another attempt to game the system.

The last two diffs are removing promotional, primary-sourced blocks of text and general cleaning up of bloat and copy editing the article, not reversions. I suggest you read the edit summaries, for starters: "remove excessive amount of primary source-based material", "ce, removed primary-sourced UNDUE material and quote-mined phrase from Independent article".

I, too, would be interested to hear an admin's assessment of these edits regarding the revert policy.

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:28, 26 February; 09:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

OTOH, you appear to keep altering your posts here. Hare to reply to an ever-moving target. Collect (talk) 12:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it's the other way around. Your constinual string of diversionary tactics, that is, require continual responses; thus, copy editing hastily typed replies.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I need help: A user is harassing me.

There is a user that continuously harasses me. This user has been giving me a very hard time recently (I refuse to give the username publicly; I will discuss with the helper who offers themselves to help me), and I request this user to be blocked or properly given a strict warning for several reasons:

• This user has been putting up campaigns against me to multiple people / makes biased statements. This user tries to campaign that I should be blocked for having a 'battleground' personality and putting up criticism that seems wrong (to him).
• This user has been stalking my account (I don't know if it is 24/7, but whatever I do, this user almost all the time interferes against me either by talking negatively about me among other people or revert edits with poor reasonings).
• As a follow-up, this user also does disruptive reasoning (I presume just towards me). Everything I do, this user tries to undo it, and wants to do so.
• This user has been reverting my warnings (literally, he wants me not to touch his talk page at all) on his talk page not to harass me in a very offensive manner. I told him not to do disruptive editing twice and not to stalk me, and this user reverted both, saying that he wasn't going to talk to me. Even though this user states that he has right to his talk page, he is ignoring my warnings and continuously acting against it. It is also the reason of why I am not notifying this user that I'm on an attempt to report him.
• As a follow-up, however, this user still believes he has the right to come into portals that I'm related in, and as usual, put up campaigns against me.
• This user was talks about me without notifying me in any way, and I find that as an unwanted attention, and therefore, harassment.

It would be great if anyone helped me settle this user into either properly warning this user or block him. I am mortified, and I need help here. HanSangYoon (talk) 09:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Related unresolved thread: I am here to report a Sock Puppet Account ―Mandruss ☎ 09:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

To facilitate this, the editor he's accusing of "harassing him" is me. In the thread Mandruss is linking to, I wondered if this kind of thing crosses the line into a "personal attack". I would appreciate an admin looking in to this, as I feel this editor has crossed lines here, and I would like to see this resolved. But it's getting to the point that several editors now don't dare edit or revert anything this editor has done, lest he haul them up either before WP:SPI (which he's already done with three long-standing editors), or WP:ANI (as he's trying to do to me here). --IJBall (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I have only requested an investigation; nothing wrong there, Mandruss. HanSangYoon (talk) 08:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User:HanSangYoon, you have removed another user's comments and I would suggest that you restore them. This was either malicious or more evidence of WP:CIR, neither looks good for you. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

So, what should I do here? – Should I restore my comment? Or should I leave it deleted as potential "evidence"? TIA... --IJBall (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, do you not notice that the 'harassing' one I'm referring here is IJBall? One of my reasons of why I request this user to be blocked is because he is stalking me; should I leave his spam-like comment around as usual? This user likes to ignore and delete my warnings, and so I can't just get rid of his spam message. That's just plain ridiculous on my side, Mandruss. I do not want this user to stalk around of what I'm doing. But why am I being ignored of my help request? HanSangYoon (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If I was more active and had more time, I'd block HanSangYoon myself. Honestly, if this hasn't stopped by tomorrow I might be persuaded to dust off the ole block button. What needs to happen next is one of the editors in conflict with him needs to start a subsection here requesting a block or some other administrative action for HanSangYoon. Keep it simple, state the problem clearly, and provide diffs clearly showing the competency issues and edit warring. AniMate 14:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand your logic of why you would want to block me. After all, I'm reporting a stalker, and you're simply saying that I should be blocked for no reason...pity. HanSangYoon (talk) 02:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Request for WP:BOOMERANG sanction

I have clearly made the case for the OP's WP:Incompetence in two threads including an earlier one on this page. The user is showing very poor editorial judgment, failing to adequately defend his actions, and being extremely obstinate about the whole thing. I see multiple editors strongly opposed to his actions and none supporting. Failure to respond to such opposition is disruptive by definition. I have not been around for any of the supposed edit warring, but the preceding alone should warrant some boomerang action, and I feel it's a day or two overdue. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconded. Admins can feel free to look into the OP's "charges". But his recent campaigns against other editors (e.g. here, and at WP:SPI) is troubling, to say the least, quite aside from the WP:CIR issues that Mandruss references. --IJBall (talk) 17:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thirded. I tried to extend the olive branch and help HSY fix up with some of his other projects that were unprofessional like Template:Busan Metro Line 1. However he still will not compromise and insistent that his bland pictures replace quality pictures that other editors have worked hard to make. One minute he is begging for help on something the next he is stubbornly challenging seven other editors that are all opposed to his changes.Terramorphous (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Opposed. I was simply making edits when IJBall and Terramorphus came in to undo my edits without a proper explanation. I tried discussing with IJBall, but he was simply under denial and deleted my comments immediately (even warnings not to harass me at here and here), while Terramorphus acts without discussing fully. I tried to conversate with these users, but they don't seem to even consider it importantly. IJBall's campaigning against me is a type of bullying (as it harasses me), and as an administrator quoted, "IJBall showed a high level of incivility in this case. He accused HanSangYoon of incompetence numerous time both here and at the ANI. That is not a good practice at all. Competence is required, but it is not inherited. IJBall, if you find out that the user is acting wrongly, try to help him, to teach him, and not to accuse him of being ignorant or dishonest. Acting like that only makes the situation worse." ( -Vanjagenije; evidence is here). IJBall has also been previously criticized by another user that he "shabbily treated" me (evidence is located in the same page as given).

With Terramorphus, the undoing of metro stations became a pain in the neck as I requested for him not to revert but to discuss, and he simply ignored my advice and went on to continue reverting the edits (which goes against the Misplaced Pages policy of necessary revertings and explaining (at least). Terramorphus not only refused to discuss, but also sent a challenge of getting me into trouble as a replacement response. These two editors has been very obnoxious to my contributions, and rather I'd like to point these two users out that they're the one that's causing me trouble. On top of that, I request an IBAN on IJBall (instead of a block, actually). HanSangYoon (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@HanSangYoon: You have not adequately explained how, in an article about a train station, a photo of a sign can be better for the infobox than a photo of the station. Infoboxes should illustrate the article's subject to the best extent possible with available images, and these are not articles about signs. I don't even need to point to a guideline that says this; it should be intuitively obvious. It should not be necessary to "discuss" this concept one article at a time.

You have consistently disregarded the attempts of more experienced editors to provide advice and guidance. An editor with about 900 edits should be capable of deferring to the judgment of multiple editors with thousands of edits each. You are not. Most experienced editors are willing to forgive the mistakes of newer editors and to provide assistance. When the newer editor repeatedly and defiantly refuses to accept the guidance, the desire to help them ends.

You have removed another user's comments on this page, citing as justification the fact that they removed your comments from their user talk page. This shows that you do not understand talk page policies at Misplaced Pages.

All of this, combined, points to WP:IDHT, failure to respect WP:Consensus, and WP:Incompetence. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I may not be a hardcore Misplaced Pages article editor as you said, but I do am a mature human with lots of common sense; seeing bunch of users trying to reason that they're more experienced in editing article truly makes me facepalm, first of all. Even if I was an experienced editor (which I'm not), I'm sure my usual personality of being strict on format is not gonna change, and I hope you're not trying to question my personality here. I have seen Misplaced Pages for more than a decade, and as a 'experienced Misplaced Pages user' (as in using it), I know what I want for articles that I edit. I'm pretty sure you're tired of my blunt and fixed attitude, but that is just me, after all. If there's someone who could properly cooperate with me, then I'm willing to fix my attitude FOR that cooperator. Take the otherwise, then it won't go well with me. That's that. No battleground attitude, no issue.

And let's see about the platform views that you're trying to get rid of. London Undergound, NYC Subway, Seoul Jihachul and Tokyo Chikatetsu. I am pretty much a huge fan of subways. The common thing of these four huge metro system is that in their encyclopedia pages, they show their station mark as the title image. You have the red-blue roundel for London. Seoul and Tokyo takes their modern style of placards, too, from rounders to hangar signs. New York? They take the track view image WITH the placard (black square). I like the formats of putting in placards because it shows UNITY. It shows standardization of the metro system, and boy have I repeated this multiple times. Of course, there will be people not agreeing with me, but then what am I? I have a special connection with subways, and my strong opinion is nullified? It makes absolutely no sense to me that my own contributions for the better should be taken down by some another user who doesn't seem to have a legitimate reason to back their actions up.

That's why I was so fired up with SecondaryWaltz and IJBall in the first place. I criticized Secondarywaltz because of the strange follow-up that occurred with the revertion, and with suspicion, I tried to put up a report on him, and because I did the right thing for myself, I was bombarded with negative users, finding it beyond ridiculous of how misunderstanding these users are.

And not trying to be disrespectful, but you seem more and more biased as I explain more and more of my position in my own issue. You may be a professional editor, and I respect that. But what I do not respect is the wrongful position you are currently standing at. I've shown you the best reasons of why the Misplaced Pages policy and my contributions cope with each other above. But why is it ignored? I've proved myself, and sometimes sure, they reply well. But at the end, they either just ignore the discussion or say something totally unrelated, which rises my impatience with these users. The two users that I criticized above are examples (and I also explained it well, too). I believe they were doing disruptive editing, and so I tried to show them of what I thought of their actions that outraged me. And I guess that's what you see as a disruptive editing...on my side.

You can look into talk pages or records of me hotly discussing about these placard sign images, and my reason for why the images should be up (if gathered) is abundant. Therefore, my position on the issue that escalated in the beginning is the same: Platform images should be up there. Doesn't matter if it contributes little, cause it still contributes something. Deleting that isn't the policy in Misplaced Pages (as I explained), and on my side, the one who should be 'getting the point' is the one who cannot fully continue the discussion I tried to resonate multiple times. HanSangYoon (talk) 07:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Your arguments are full of holes, and they continue to show a closed-minded ignorance of Misplaced Pages editing concepts (see WP:Other stuff exists for example), but I am through wasting my time arguing with you. If I hadn't seen that thread at the Help Desk a week ago, I wouldn't be involved in this or even aware of it. This noticeboard seems decidedly uninterested in this, and I've learned to avoid being a lone crusader on things like this; it just doesn't pay. I'm going to pretend I didn't see the Help Desk thread and let the rest of the community deal with you as they see fit. Best of luck. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Mandruss: You started this discussion, but I'm not sure what you actually want. Do you want to ask administrators to block HanSangYoon, or to warn him, or what? I agree with you that HanSangYoon is acting disruptively, but I don't think he should be blocked just for making wrong editorial judgments. @HanSangYoon: In the future, if other editors revert your edits, you should calm down and try to discuss that with them on the article talk page, or on the WikiProject talk page, or on their user talk pages. You should not make the same or similar edit again unless you reach a wp:consensus with other editors. You should not report them to administrators, WP:SPI, or anywhere else. You should not accuse them of stalking, bullying, harassing, etc. Just calm down, and try to discuss the issue with them. So, my advice to you is to immediately stop accusing other users, and to take time to read WP:CONSENSUS and especially this page. I call on you to promise here that you will not make any contested edits in the future without reaching consensus first, and that you will not make accusations against other editors just because they do not agree with you. I believe that is the only way to save yourself from being blocked, as otherwise you are very close to that. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije: I would be satisfied if this user would do three things.

• Reverse all of his additions of sign photos.
• Agree to follow WP:BRD procedure from this point forward. He may try his sign photo additions again, but if his edit gets reverted, he must not re-revert unless he first gains consensus for the change in talk. It will be his responsibility to start the discussion. If he is unable to get consensus after making his best argument, the sign photo stays out. He should understand that endless, circular WP:IDHT argument will not be tolerated.
• Agree that other editors may be watching his activity for awhile to be sure he is honoring his agreement, without accusing them of stalking.

If the user cannot agree to all three items, then I'm requesting a one-week block, during which time I and possibly others will reverse his sign photo additions. If he then returns and starts this all over again without following BRD, he should expect to return to this page, this time as the subject instead of the OP. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:33, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It's probably not your intention, but that comes across as "Please block him so we can undo all his work and then get him blocked again when he comes back". You might want to moderate your position a bit here. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@SarekOfVulcan: My intention is to turn the clock back to a time before all of this user's disruptive activity. A reset, if you will. My hope is that no block is necessary, not once, let alone twice. If necessary, I'm willing to do the reset myself, but I don't want the possibility of edit warring while I'm doing it; hence the need for the block. I hope I have clarified my position. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Opposed again. I believe my edits were rather contributive, not disruptive as Mandrus's claims. I have been adding information and describing well of why Mandruss's criticism against me is excessive above. Also, to Vanjagenije, I have already said that I am the one who discusses with users who revert my images and contributions. It's them who either run away from the discussion, or suddenly talk about something else, totally unrelated. Mandruss showed an example of one right now, claiming that my explanation was 'full of holes' (which I strongly disagree) instead of actuall countering them. And for what reason am I being close to being blocked for? These unreasonable criticisms truly angers me. There is no reason to get rid of them, and it also breaks several Misplaced Pages policies. I stand by my defense. HanSangYoon (talk) 17:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

P.S, I was/am/will continue to discuss with people before doing reverts (as Vanjagenije said). Such warning should be towards the other side, not my side. Disruptive editing isn't what I'm doing. It's what they're doing. Reverting my contribution with lack of reasoning...it's really angering.

• HanSangYoon, please read WP:BRD. If someone reverts your bold edit, discuss your proposed edit on the talk page. Don't edit war or get angry, just deal with it and try to come upon a solution. ColonialGrid (talk) 14:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@ColonialGrid:, I have followed the bold edit of whenever I have doubt, I edit. I contribute. I try to have consensus and discussion, and it's the users on the other side that either ignores it and pushes with their edit warring, or all of a sudden, talk about something else to cut off the the discussion. What was I supposed to do? I dealt with so many obstacles these users placed in front of me, and I truly had enough. These users needs to be aware that I have good faith, and their offensive actions of condemning whatever I do threats my good faith. I face palm whenever I get warnings of criticism from people, in which sometimes it seems ironic. HanSangYoon (talk) 19:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• This response simply demonstrates you do not understand BRD. You accuse others of edit warring after your bold edits, but it is you who is edit warring, not others. If you get reverted don't reinstate it: that is edit warring. Discuss proposed additions on the talk page if you are reverted. If you follow BRD properly edit wars cannot happen as reverts lead to discussions. If you are discussing issues with other edits and it gets no where, that means that no consensus has been formed and it's time to walk away and do something else. ColonialGrid (talk) 04:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose formal sanctions, but strictly warn the user about ownership behaviour in articles and paying heed to consensus in talk page discussions. HanSangYoon wishes to contribute images to LA Metro articles, but discussion has determined that the images are unacceptable, either because of poor quality or incorrect context. There seems to be agreement that there should be images, but that better ones should be found. Rather than accept this result HanSangYoon has battled on the talk page and elsewhere insisting that the images must be their contributions; if not these, then other images they will collect in the future. That is inappropriate. HanSangYoon: Misplaced Pages values your contributions but you do not own them, and sometimes the community decides to go in a different direction. Some other alternatives were suggested to you (such as submitting the images to Commons, which you have done) but you cannot insist that your images (and/or only your images) must be used in any article. Continuing to do so is disruptive, and you will be blocked if you refuse to listen to criticism and cannot contribute constructively. Ivanvector (talk) 20:37, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, the user should be very strongly admonished for suggesting that another user's argument is racist, with no shred of proof. Completely unacceptable. Ivanvector (talk) 20:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• HanSangYoon has just engaged in edit warring, breaking WP:3RR. Discussion is at: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:HanSangYoon reported by User:ColonialGrid (Result: ). ColonialGrid (talk) 05:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Medeis hatting and deletions on the ref desks

Dear all, I am requesting that User:Medeis be banned from removing or hatting anything on the reference desks. I have problems with her other contributions, but this is by far the biggest, and the only one that really warrants a solution. (Note: I believe Medeis has previously said she is female, hence the pronoun "she"). Her removals and hattings are objectionable to many people, and take up a lot of time on the ref desk talk page. Every time I read the talk page, there is another long thread about something she has removed. This costs an inordinate amount of time, and always results in a deluge of words, and a lot of tension. The latest example is this:

• First deletion:
• Second deletion:

Furthermore, the edit summary for the first deletion said: "I am not a holocaust denialist, nor a believer in conspiracy theory: {{WP:DENY]] this is not he first trolling by noopolo)". This contains the accusation of "trolling", which is bizarre and unsubstantiated in this case. The question by Noopolo strikes me as incredibly legitimate, and very interesting. What's more, it was answered well, with posts that I found highly informative. I have for a long time wanted to know the nitty gritty of these things, because I trust that holocaust deniers are wrong, but I think it is better to be armed with facts, and whilst I can consult the articles, ref desk posts give me a pithy initial summary, for the sake of a quick overview.

Another problem here is that Medeis claims to be following Bold, Revert, Discuss, as witness this diff: . I do not see anything resembling BRD here - Medeis has been bold twice in quick succession, not at all the correct procedure.

The thread on the ref desk talk page is becoming very long. Furthermore, all these problems seem to cause enormous tension among editors, but they always seem to start with Medeis. Some people agree with her deletions, so I say, if so, let them take the lead. Consequently, because of the enormous amount of time constantly consumed by Medeis, I request that this user be indefinitely banned from hatting or removing posts on the ref desks. This is the only sanction I request, and it would not stop her from requesting hatting or deletion on the ref desk talk page, or contributing to such discussions.

Note this previous attempt to deal with Medeis, just one among many:

Thanks all, IBE (talk) 09:21, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

When did you last participate in a ref desk talk page discussion on these issues? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

This has been an ongoing problem on the reference desks for a long time. μηδείς/Medeis deletes or hats questions or discussions that they decide are inappropriate, even in the face of overwhelming consensus that the material in question should be allowed. I do not understand why this has been allowed to go on for so long.

There is zero downside to topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from any modification of another person's comments. The reference desks are full of trustworthy people who can and will deal with those comments that really need to be removed or hatted, such as asking for legal/medical advice. We simply do not need μηδείς/Medeis as the self-appointed sheriff of the reference desks, constantly making contentious closures. The word "loose cannon" comes to mind. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

There has been ongoing debate for many years about when or if to hat/delete, and in fact there are ongoing discussions about it right now at the ref desk talk page - which is what that talk page is for, don'cha know. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:03, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe further research is needed. Forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:56, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

I support the proposal to deal with Medeis in this manner. What we have here is an editor who pops up with an assertion that some IP editor is some well-known miscreant - and without evidence or discussion either deletes, hat or harasses that person. Medeis is trying to take the role of an Admin, without going through the necessary hoops to gain that status and without understanding the mechanisms by which sock-puppetry is dealt with. I'm quite sure that this is well-intentioned, but very often (at least half the time), the community consensus is that Medeis is incorrect or has overreacted. That causes yet another huge debate about her actions to break out on the talk page, typically resulting in widespread condemnation of Medeis' actions. This is evidence (IMHO) that this is a case of WP:DISRUPT that should be dealt with accordingly.

However, (as I've frequently stated) the underlying issue is that the reference desks do not have a simple, comprehensible, set of guidelines as to what to do with problematic posts from possibly dubious editors. So it's hard for the community to say "Medeis: You broke rule 27(b), please don't do that again." - or "Admins: This is the 23rd time Medeis broke rule 27(b), please apply a topic ban." Our inability to get the community to get into a goal-directed discussion about a decent set of guidelines, despite the evident relish in fighting each action on a case-by-case basis, is puzzling and extremely frustrating to me.

So while I definitely support dealing with Medeis, she is just the outlier in a spectrum of confusing responses to inappropriate questions at WP:RD. If we had those clear guidelines, then an admin would have taken action a long time ago.

SteveBaker (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, all very pertinent, Steve, but you have said before that the problem is that people disagree on the interpretation anyway. (I hope I'm not misinterpreting you, but somewhere you said to Medeis, when she advanced a similar-sounding idea, that you disagree with almost all her hattings.) The point is that people always claim to be following certain rules (as interpreted by them), so I don't see how to get a single set of effective rules in place. We would need a competent authority to carry them out, and the devil here is in the detail - deciding what counts as this or that problem (per your flowchart on the ref desk talk page) is (I believe) a big part of the problem. If you want to revise those guidelines and include the concept of some kind of chain of command for more drastic actions (a bit like the suggestion of letting only admins hat or delete) I'd be interested. At the same time, let's remember it's complicated in its own right, and should be discussed as a separate proposal. This one is only about one editor, and you have summed up my reasons very neatly, better than I could have put it. IBE (talk) 05:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

All of this needs to be handled on the ref desk talk page. Dragging it here is nothing more than grandstanding. There are a few different areas of conflict:

1. There is a rule against giving professional advice. Medeis errs on the (sometimes extreme) side of caution. If there is disagreement about it, that's what the talk page is for. Where it gets complicated is the involvement of users who range from not going to the extreme, all the way to disagreeing with the rule itself.
2. Random trolling is another negotiable matter for the talk page. There's a risk of "feeding the troll", but generally there's consensus on obvious trolling.
3. Banned users are not allowed to edit. Again, there are persistent arguments which seek to ignore that rule. But again, that's negotiable. The complication comes with editors who are less experienced in dealing with banned users and are unwillingly to show good faith toward those who know the M.O. of these users. And then it gets messy and annoying, as all the back-and-forth does nothing except feed the banned troll.

You can talk about rules and guidelines and decision trees every day and twice on Sunday, but none of that fixes the core problems I've listed above. If you're going ban Medeis for executing the "Bold" part of BRD, then you should also ban the users who insist on the "R" part as well. The solution would seem to be to decide on when to bring a hat or deletion to the talk page. This does not belong on ANI. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Our guidelines say we don't engage in debate or speculation, but the first two diffs provided above start with "I am not a holocaust denialist but..." whereas me saying their are certain editors who show up only to criticize me and a few other editors (and I am not talking about the person with whom I am engaged in an IBAN) isn't even a matter of dispute, it's an observation by me. The problem in general is that we come to conclusions on the talk page that trolling should just be deleted without comment, because a talk page discussion draws more attention. Then, when that opinion is followed, someone complains there was no discussion and the cycle goes around and around.

As for myself "acting like an admin", I am not the only person who follows the guidelines about removing material by known block-evading trolls, etc., and I follow consensus of the desk when an edit I make is reversed. See, for example, this thread on people with Autism and Down's Syndrome where I suggest half way down the thread that the person may be trolling us, only at the end for him to admit it and mock us, before I then closed the thread.

The ref desk needs objective rules that apply equally to everyone. Some of those rules already govern all of main space, no BLP violations, No professional advice, comments by banned users may be removed on sight. Other issues are judgment calls and I do not reverse them when consensus is against me at the talk page. If one of them is to be that only an admin can hat or delete a discussion, that's fine with me. μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - Per Baseball Bugs. I can begin imagine (but will not make) a good-faith (though not necessarily good) case for 1rr on the refdesks, but Medeis usually does removals or hatting that needs to be done. Sometimes overly cautious? Yes. Disruptive? That's certainly an "it takes two to tango" deal here. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I cannot see your point about "it takes two to tango". A large number of people have expressed their dislike of Medeis' hatting. You give no examples about what constitutes being merely "overly cautious". I said in my OP that it is one editor consuming a huge amount of time from excessive hatting/ removal. The case I gave is a classic example. There is nothing resembling excessive caution there. It is just an absurd reaction to the question, containing as it does an unsubstantiated accusation of trolling by Medeis against Noopolo. Perhaps there is a history there, but nothing was offered as an explanation, other than the characterisation of "trolling". I see no "tangoing" and have never had any desire to engage Medeis in confrontation. Neither have a number of editors who have used the legitimate processes to deal with another editor. My claim about wasted time by many editors amounts to exactly that complaint, that we desperately don't want to tango, but we don't want the nuisance caused by a single outlier either. If you believe in the hattings, I said that it would be fine for others to take the lead. This doesn't look like an attempt to tango, I feel. IBE (talk) 08:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If BRD is followed, Medeis hats or removes, it is reverted, Medeis might choose to discuss, no one is forced to discuss, and the hat/removal fails for lack of consensus. No one's time is "wasted" unless they choose to "waste" it, beyond the time it takes to perform one undo (about 15 seconds including the editsum). Medeis says that she follows and respects this system and I haven't seen anyone bring proof that she does not. Sorry but your argument is full of holes. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I gave the example in the original post. Two removals, in quick succession, and a direct claim to be following BRD. But I might have messed something up, so please quietly alert me to a blunt error, if I have made one. IBE (talk) 14:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I wondered whether I should say this, but I decided it was so obvious as to be unnecessary. We don't drag people to ANI for one or two (or even three over a period of time) lapses of judgment. Show me a pattern of misbehavior, please, where BRD has been violated in hatting and removal. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If you think this is only a few instances, spend some time scanning the ref desk talk page archives for the past five years. Or just google /reference desk talk medeis delete/. You can also or restrict to inurl:en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk, etc. E.g. here are a few hits, and I especially like this one, where Medeis goes off in ALL CAPS about how a question is an "invitation to debate", when in fact it is a question about specific citable historical facts, asked by a well-established and productive editor. Here's a talk thread about bad hatting and deleting by Medeis from 2013 . This archive has lots of Medeis not acting like a pleasant team player I have better things to do than google trawl for every time Medeis has caused disruption based on aggressive policing, but if you're genuinely curious, WP and google have all the history you need to get the example behavior straight from the source. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:43, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've been under the mistaken impression that BRD has been in place at the refdesks. Taking in all of this discussion, it appears that's not the case. You can't fault Medeis for the fact that there have been no clear rules; that is the fault of the community. I'm proposing the use of BRD and Medeis has made a very clear statement below (02:59, 23 Feb) that she will abide by BRD if it is accepted. If the rules are clear and Medeis breaks her own promise to follow them, THEN you have an ANI case. Not until then. That should be all that is necessary to end this discussion now. And Medeis is spot on when she conditions her promise on application of the BRD rule to everyone. If you bring her back to ANI for BRD violations and she can show spotty or selective enforcement, the case should be thrown out. That is the only way this can work. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Its use is inconsistent. Also, BRD is not the way to deal with a banned user. As has been said numerous times on the ref desk talk page, by various users, removal of questions by banned users should be as low-key as possible. The newer users need to show good faith in the editor doing the removal, rather than arguing about it as too often happens, thus feeding the banned user. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Pro-tip When someone says "I am not a <thing>" and then starts to argue about said thing, they are probably not being 100% honest. While Medeis is cautioned not to edit war or ignore consensus I think the whole ref desk area is a bit permissive of trolling. Oppose topic ban and 1RR restriction, our rules against edit warring can be used to keep this in check and frankly the idea of cutting these thing off early should be considered per WP:DENY. Chillum 18:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support 1RR mentioned by Ian.thomson. It seems this is something regularly brought up at the refdesk talk page and has made its way to ANI at least a couple times in the past. Each time -- of those I've seen and/or were part of -- there seems to be a great deal of support for the idea that Medeis should exercise more caution in hatting and/or that his/her aggressive hatting is disruptive. Unfortunately, as far as I've seen anyway, Medeis is persistent in defending his/her actions, so I'm not sure what good more cautioning could possibly do. I'm also sympathetic to the idea that Medeis dedicates a lot of time to the refdesk and hats appropriately a lot of the time, so a 1RR seems like a good solution to prevent the more disruptive instances of hat-warring without preventing hatting in the first place. — Rhododendrites \\ 19:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I do not support 1rr, I only mentioned that as the farthest I could see this going. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose all Support 1RR - As Rhododendrites states, Medeis does a lot of good work and 1RR seems to be a good solution, a second revert in this type of situation would be questionable at best anyway. Further discussion has changed my mind. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

It can very easily be questionable both ways, however. If we are going to go with 1rr, I'd at least suggest that it's under the stipulation that it must be more than one user who reverts Medeis, not the same user over and over. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support 1RR She treats any topic she find distasteful as a troll and hats or deletes it. Imagine if we did that with Misplaced Pages articles. StuRat (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

This is simply untrue StuRat and here is an example where SemanticMantis hatted you because he didn't "like" your comments on tax policy. I

Others have already provided numerous examples on the Ref Desk talk page, for years now. StuRat (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban - I think at most a stern warning from someone scary with an admin hat is warranted here. Maybe also a trout or possibly even a rather smelly mackerel (The Mark of the Mackerel), though not a whale. Anyway, first and last warning. On a side note, for the purposes of keeping things from being chaotic, can we !vote (or is this a vote?) on one thing at a time? I'm not even sure if we're saying 1RR for Medeis or for the whole refdesk (the latter ought not to be discussed here). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 3 Adar 5775 19:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The community already has a version of 1rr, in that I don't rehat discussions when my hatting is questioned and there's no consensus for it on the talk page. No evidence has been provided otherwise, which is what would have justified bring this here now. But what about cases like this, where my long attempt at engaging with a question was twice hatted, and I removed the hats 12. Would that be a violation of 1rr? Would any actually banned user like Light Current and Bowei Huang or the IP from Toronto who eventually went to my talk page asking me if, as a negress, my intelligence was substandard be allowed to restore a personal attack I deleted? Would I have to come running to ANI every time something like this occurred to get it rectified? And why are we talking about this sanction out of the blue if there's no evidence above of a current problem? As for being consistent in "defending my actions", even if that were true, it amounts to saying I'm guilty because I defend myself. μηδείς (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• I would Support Medeis' proposal that only admins are allowed to hat or delete RD threads. We have several admins who are active on the reference desks, so there wouldn't be a problem with lack of coverage. However, this rule would need to be strictly enforced, even for the most egregious violations - is the community prepared to apply such a restriction? If so, let's make it official. Tevildo (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose admin-only closure - Yes, we have admin coverage, but it's still kind of like letting admins be the only persons who can remove vandalism from articles. I could begin to consider the idea that admins are the only users who can delete threads that have received responses, and that admins are the only persons who can re-hat de-hatted threads -- but I'm still not suggesting that. Quite frankly, there are a number of refdesk users who are bad at spotting trolls and love giving them attention (hell, I'll even admit that I'm not entirely innocent there). Restricting others from dealing with trolls goes against WP:DENY, WP:BOLD, and WP:IAR. We don't need rules saying you can or cannot remove a thread if that rule is going to enable trolls and punish those who remove trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:41, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose admin only closure, support disallowing Medeis to revert when someone reopens her closures. That seems to be the reasonable solution. We should not create situations where admins are allowed to do things that normal users technically can also, but then only allow admins to do. If and when Medeis closes a thread in good faith, if it is reopened Medeis should not close it a second time. That stops all edit wars, and would really remove the locus of the problem. Medeis closes threads in good faith; the issue is the repeated closure of those threads after others disagree. If consensus supports Medeis, others can reclose a reopened thread. If consensus does not support her, she should not be reclosing them. --Jayron32 00:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I would support Jayron32's proposal if "someone" were changed to "anyone". In default of Medeis' threshold for hatting being voluntarily aligned with that of the community (which, IMO, is unlikely to happen), we need to find a method of minimizing its disruptive effects. Would it be considered too inequitable to have a simple "Medeis is not permitted to hat or delete anything" rule? If, as I suspect, it would, allowing any user to revert her misjudgements in this area seems like an acceptable solution, but only if it's understood by all concerned that such reversions are not open to subsequent discussion, and, of course, that it doesn't apply to hatting or deletion by users other than Medeis. SteveBaker's proposal for an unambiguous set of rules might be theoretically superior, but generating those rules isn't going to be easy. Tevildo (talk) 01:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Mandruss and I just edit conflicted, so other than emphasizing that the same rules should apply to everybody (assuming disruption is disruption no matter who does it, Tevildo), I will let his statement below stand for mine. μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Thankyou, Tevildo, for a very fair comment. The reason for singling out Medeis was given in my first post here, announcing the ANI. It is because of constant misapplication of the rules, and overzealous hatting/removal, costing enormous time. No other editor costs us this much time. Hence I claim that there is nothing inequitable going on. It would be the same for anyone who acted this way over a long time. It is also a minimalist suggestion, designed to counter only the specific problem. IBE (talk) 05:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Seconding this rationale. Exceptional behavior merits exceptional treatment. Minimal changes are best at this point. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support BRD at the refdesks - where a hat/removal is the B and the hatter/remover is the one responsible for starting D if they feel it is important enough to pursue. If the D feeds some trolls, so be it; there is no perfect solution. If Medeis already follows this system, causing no more "disruption" than one revert per problem thread, then this ANI complaint would appear to be without merit. I think a clause against thread double jeopardy would be necessary; if a hat/removal attempt failed, that thread would have to be immune from further hat/removal by the same user, regardless of what happened in it later. Again, not perfect, but better than unlimited bites at the apple. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:34, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose all as not having any sufficient necessity. unhatting takes but a moment if one is concerned, and there is no strong argument for any punishment for the behaviour which annoys some editors. And I am tired of some of the same folks seeking the same remedies on a monthly basis - all it is, is drama for the sake of drama at that point. (Drama gratia dramatis) Collect (talk) 03:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I see no "drama for the sake of drama". The "same remedies"? No, I think different ones. Can you substantiate this? If I knew about a previous attempt at this remedy, I would not have filed this post. My suggested remedy is a minimalist one, and I have never heard of it before. You are welcome to be tired of us, but there are many of us, and it is because of outlier behaviour, which does not seem in keeping with the need for consensus. Unhatting only takes a moment, but people will rehat, and that causes a nuisance, as I said above. Some of us find the hatting more than vexing, because we can sense the willpower behind it, a feeling that is borne out by later developments, including rehatting and insistent, illogical debate on the talk page. The thread about holocaust deniers, which I linked, is a classic example, including accusations against people for being IPs, and claiming that the thread consists of nothing but debate. It is these later developments, and the sense of a lot of willpower by a single editor, against community consensus, that is causing us extreme annoyance. IBE (talk) 08:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose admin only closure. There are plenty of legit closures by other editors, like duplicate Q's. Just because one editor doesn't know when to close a Q doesn't mean all should be banned from doing so. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I haven't delved into the whole history of thread-hatting and removing in recent months, but the removal of this particular question strikes me as completely appropriate. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Its appropriateness was for BRD to decide. I'm defending Medeis in this thread, but I don't defend that particular case because it violated BRD. For now, BRD/consensus is the best available solution to this problem, and it needs to be observed. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:55, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Support preventing Medeis from deleting/hatting posts on the ref desks. Asking nicely, trouting, etc, has proved ineffective, though I do wish that would be all that was necessary. Most every time Medeis does hats/delets, at least one other regular user disagrees, and a bunch of arguing ensues (sometimes it is me who argues about Medeis' shutting down threads). I see this as very disruptive, and often times troll feeding, despite the intent. We have plenty of other users who make deletions/removals that are not contentious. Medeis should let them handle it. Since asking hasn't worked in the past, I suspect sanctions will be necessary to stop this pattern of disruption. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Topic ban for Medeis, Medeis often has good and useful responses. Often times not, but that behavior can just be ignored, while hatting/deleting disrupts the desks for everybody. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You do realize that we are only discussing topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from hatting or deleting other people's comments while allowing her to do everything else she normally does, right? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that, I thought "topic ban" meant banning from the ref desks. Now stricken. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Support Admin-only closure - mostly just because I honestly think deletion causes far more strife than any trolls. Trolls hate AGF, good referenced answers, and being ignored. Deleting is none of those. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I very nearly ignored this, but I'm alarmed at some discussion above that sounds like a back-door plan to introduce some sort of policy, or unneeded admin oversight, at the Refdesk. The only thing wrong on the Refdesks is when people try to play admin. Dumb, incomprehensible, or troll questions can easily be ignored; they're just "roughage" and no real problem to anyone. Either you waste your time answering or you don't. Is it bad for Medeis to play admin? Yes. But not any worse than when anyone else does. Whoever comes in with big plans for reform this, ban that, enforce this, block that ... they do nothing but harm. So make your decision about Medeis personally as you see fit, but please don't mess with the Refdesk. Wnt (talk) 21:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Wnt hit the nail on the head. There is zero downside to topic-banning μηδείς/Medeis from deleting or collapsing other people's comments -- there are at least a dozen well-respected users who are doing that without the controversial decisions -- but all sorts of potential downside to changing how the refdesks work just to deal with one disruptive editor. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

So, Guy, what you are suggesting is that rather than BRD, I should bring every request for closure to an admin board? What exactly are you pointing to as a problem here? Wnt's opinion that the medical industry (see his comments on testosterone) is a monopolistic scam are well known. Where have I acted according to our medical disclaimer, then refused to accept consensus when my action has been reverted? Where is any evidence for this entire thread so that uninvolved admins can observe it? μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I believe what some people are suggesting is that they'd prefer if you didn't care at all about (micro-)managing the desks, and limited your contributions to the reference desks to answers and questions, but not hatting and removing (and, to a lesser degree, not adding mid-thread comments on a question's appropriateness or a querent's sincerity). The reason some editors are suggesting this lies in the number of your interferences that have irritated (and sometimes been reverted by) a number of regular editors. The fact, that you don't mind adding opinionated comment when you so see fit has added to some contributors' irritation (or resignation). I find it hard to understand how you couldh't have noticed this by now. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:01, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

If you're saying some ref desk regulars would rather not enforce the rules against professional advice, for example, then you're right. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Wait, are you telling me that editors working at the Reference Desk are okay with giving out professional advice, even when they have no professional credentials? This really opens up problems for Misplaced Pages and does no service to readers who come there with questions. There should be no shoot-from-the-hip answers to medical, legal, business or career questions that come up. Liz 02:21, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

No, this isn't the issue. Most of us are happy with the current guidelines at WP:RD/G/M. The problem is with Medeis' hatting and deletion of "trolling", as she perceives it: her standards of what constitutes "trolling" do not match those of the majority of Reference Desk regulars. If Medeis would restrict her actions to medical and legal advice as defined in the guidelines, the problem would be greatly reduced (if not entirely eliminated). Tevildo (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It's not that simple. There are also editors who are perfectly willing to allow banned users to edit. And when an experienced editor recognizes such a user's M.O., you get some editors exhibiting bad faith toward the editor who recognizes it, and start talking about starting an SPI, which is a fool's errand and only feeds the banned editor. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Well, yes, Tevildo, this is exactly the issue raised above. Liz, we have various editors who argue regularly that a question is "interesting" and that if it had been worded in some other way it wouldn't violate our ban on giving professional advice. We recently had a discussion Snow Rise started at the reference desk talk page about whether licensed veterinary advice was a violation of the Misplaced Pages:General_disclaimer even though the opinion that veterinary advice is forbidden has been consensus since at least 2007.

We have three issues here. (1) A total lack of evidence that I have recently or materially violated BRD, or am acting in bad faith. (2) A significant number of contributers here who think that questioners who can be "ignored" (although they never are) who never disobey policy, only regulars following policy that is a problem, and (3) a "content" dispute over posts which certain people would rather settle by limiting my editting rather than having a set of rules that apply equally to ("at least a dozen well-respected users") all.

The solutions are twofold: an objective set of criteria, and equal application of those criteria to all, including those who ask at the desks, and those who work there. μηδείς (talk) 04:48, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

"Re: "So, Guy, what you are suggesting is that rather than BRD, I should bring every request for closure to an admin board?", No, I am suggesting that you get out of the business of deciding what stays and what goes. You are really, really bad at it, and there are at least a dozen people who are good at it who should be allowed to do -- well -- what you are doing -- badly. You would still be allowed to call for something to be deleted or hatted. You would still be allowed to answer or ignore questions. You just wouldn't be allowed to do the one thing that you suck at. How many different editors have to take you to ANI before you get the point? Just stop, now, voluntarily, and save us all another million words of debating. --07:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. In mainspace, WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS, when followed and enforced, do a pretty good job of protecting articles from editors whose edits do not improve the encyclopedia. Can they be gamed? Absolutely. Anything can be gamed (and whatever Medeis's shortcomings, I don't see deliberately gaming the system as one of them, in any case). We don't selectively exclude editors who agree to observe BRD, no matter how bad their judgment. Medeis has agreed to observe BRD provided it applies to all, a perfectly reasonable expectation and condition.

What is the absolute worst case result of this proposal? What is its maximum downside? Well, zero discussion is required to simply allow a disputed edit to fail for lack of consensus. Medeis can open a discussion, but no one is forced to participate in it. If she then hatted or removed every thread on every refdesk, and if every such action were inappropriate, the time cost would be less than 15 minutes per day, the time it takes to undo approximately 56 edits (8 threads times 7 desks). That's your worst case, and one that we would obviously never approach. We have already spent more time in this discussion than we would likely spend reverting Medeis in a month.

We need to take a collective deep breath, stand back, and give existing processes a chance to work as they were designed to work. As far as I can tell this has not been tried consistently and evenly at the refdesks; correct me if I'm wrong. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Why do you keep citing the disclaimer, at strongest, the disclaimer should be taken to say "We aren't claiming this is professional advice". A disclaimer would be something like "Enter at your own risk", which would mean, you assume risk by entering; it would not mean, "People inside will prevent you from entering, and are obliged to do so", or whatever. I'm not even saying your general point was/is wrong about the issue you are referencing, but please stop citing a disclaimer as if they were rules - or, if that is how Misplaced Pages really means them, let's rename the page, because that's not what a disclaimer generally means.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 11:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction on μηδείς. Boldly hatting is fine and there is really no evidence of disuption or edit warring. Relegating a simple task such as hatting to "no big deal" admins is ludicrous. Close/ --DHeyward (talk) 07:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Reluctant support for TBAN or one-revert limit for Medeis, with regard to hatting discussions and removing the edits of another contributor - As one of the RefDesk contributors who has argued most stringently for a cautious and restrictive approach to the professional advice issue, I appreciate Medeis' general concerns and I have no doubt that she takes these actions in good faith and, in each case, in manner that she believes to be consistent with policy. That being said, this ongoing and highly disruptive situation demonstrates that she lacks to the ability to respect the general consensus of her fellow contributors with regard to these circumstances. It's all well and good to say that, in any given scenario, she seems to be acting within the spectrum of good-faith, if toward the extremes, but we long ago passed the point where she should have started to recognize the situations in which she was adopting a WP:SNOW position. Even if she is absolutely certain her interpretation of policy is in the right, and that she's acting in the best interests of the project (and never had cause to doubt that she is acting from this frame of mind), she seems to lack the ability to see (or at least accept) when she is about to take an action in these contexts which is in essence identical the last dozen which the consensus of her fellow editors found to be excessive/in error. The fact that she cannot see that there is nothing to be gained by trying to force her standard approach to these situation, aside from a great deal of wasted energy on the part of numerous contributors, is problematic in the extreme.

Again, I share many of Medeis' priorities here, but if my actions were the subject of a half-dozen separate talk page discussions, wherein they were generally being regarded as excessive by a large number of other editors, I'd be moderating my approach some, especially if said actions were in the vein of altering other contributor's comments, which is a behaviour that editors are by and large meant to be avoiding outside of great necessity. It's true that the standards in question here are open to some degree of interpretation, but that does not in itself stop Medeis from recognizing when her perspectives are out of sync with the significant majority of her fellow editors and adjusting her approach accordingly. The fact that she has gotten considerable feed/push-back on this particular issue, via numerous discussions and is, if anything, pushing the boundaries in the same area with increasing abandon, suggests that she will not stop on this issue unless she receives an unambiguous mandate, unfortunately.

Thoroughly oppose (policy-inconsistent) suggestion of admin-only closures First off, since no one else has pointed this out, I think it needs to be recognized that we, the small collection of editors in this discussion, do not have the authority to implement such a ruling to begin with. The standards which govern when it is acceptable to close down a discussion or to alter the contents of another editor's contributions are the subject of broad community consensus and we are not allowed to create idiosyncratic approaches to these situations which limit or modify those standards in a given space without soliciting broad community discussion to reach a new consensus and alter the relevant policies accordingly (regardless of whether said change in policy applies to all areas of the project broadly or just specific scenarios/spaces). Deciding to apply a unique standard to our area of operation is not allowable and is a notion that ArbCom has already had disabuse several WikiProjects of in recent time; going down that road here is not only a non-starter, but likely to amp the drama up another few notches. Nowhere on the project, that I'm aware of, have these actions been regarded as the sole purview of administrators.

But even putting aside the fact that this procedurally not allowed, I don't see the utility either; the vast, vast, vast majority of our contributors at the Ref Desks who have occasionally hatted a problematic discussion do so only on rare occasion and without creating a ruckus. I dare say a majority of these actions are found to be in the best interests of the project and consistent with our guidelines and are not reversed. Medeis' suggestion of "fine, but if I can't do it, then the standard should be shared by all and no one should be able to do it" does not hold water to me, as this discussion is meant to consider whether her behaviours in this regard are problematic, not whether such actions are ever appropriate from editors without admin privileges; policy and the community consensus clearly say that they sometimes are, but that these actions should be approached with intense caution and reservation. For the rest of our contributors who, by and large, observe that restraint, these actions are not problematic and I don't see the point of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here (again, if we were even empowered to in this discussion, which we are not). Snow 08:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Support 1RR for ALL editors, not just singling out / scapegoating one. But make an exception when the edit summary is WP:DENY, which telegraphs the removal of comments by a banned user or perennial troll. That type of removal should NOT be reverted. Some discrete discussion (probably off-wiki) could be had with the user who removed it. Arguing about it on the ref desk talk page is counterproductive. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Singling out is exactly what this thread is about. There is no scapegoating, it is a simple fact that Medeis has dozens of times deleted/hatted things inappropriately, and many of us find that to be disruptive. It especially disruptive since it is an ongoing pattern of behavior. It is even more disruptive because all polite requests to stop doing that have been ignored. If one of my students acts up in class, I deal with that student, I don't change the rules for everyone else. It's really simple. Most of the ref desk regulars do not have multiple complaints about their behavior, and Medeis does. This outstanding behavior is exactly why Medeis is being singled out. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Even so, if you impose 1RR on Medeis, and not on the other editors, it IS scapegoating. The original complainant here hadn't even commented on the ref desk talk page recently. It's grandstanding, an "end around" play. In short, it's a bad-faith complaint. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

A few minutes ago, another editor pointed out some typical debate-seeking questions from a Toronto-based troll, or "Toron-troll". Dollars to donuts, someone will revert my hatting on some ridiculous grounds. And if they do, those folks should be sanctioned for it. Their lack of vigilance does not serve the ref desk well. Medeis sometimes over-vigilance doesn't really bother anyone except the troll enablers. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you know what scapegoat means. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Bugs, putting aside for a moment why you think all editors should be held to the same standard we are trying to apply for one editor who is particularly disruptive in this area, you need to understand that this is just not an option that we are empowered to mandate here. Misplaced Pages already has standards which govern when the average editor can and cannot perform actions like hatting and removal of another user's comments. The editors in a given content or discussion space are simply not allowed to create unique rules governing such behaviour that apply only to them in their favourite space. In order to affect that change, you need to seek broad community involvement the alter the relevant policies. We cannot simply decide to change the rules on our own, whether it means make the rules more permissive or more restrictive. That's just not the way Misplaced Pages works. We obey the same rules as the rest of the project and only in cases where policy says as much do separate rules apply to separate spaces. Snow 18:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I would like to call to everyone's attention to Misplaced Pages:Help desk, where we manage to get by just fine without any self-appointed sheriffs deleting questions that they don't like. these include:

• Legal threats/BLP issues: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2015 February 5#request for correction of errors and defamation
• Misplaced vandalism reports: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2015 January 12#"Sickle"
• Misplaced content disputes: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 December 20#"HANDS UP" FALSE NARRATIVE
• Requests for medical advice: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 December 1#Audio illutions
• Questions written in other languages: Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2014 November 24#لماذا تم حذف صفحتي؟

What few content deletions we have are 100% uncontroversial and generate zero drama. In all other cases, the question gets answered, even if the answer is "You are in the wrong place; the right place is X" or "That's not a question Misplaced Pages can answer".

Perhaps western civilization won't collapse if μηδείς/Medeis is banned from deleting questions/discussions that she doesn't like... I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Hear, hear! SemanticMantis (talk) 20:56, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I think this thread should be put to bed. It's especially objectionable when we get sarcastic remarks like the immediate above that offer no evidence of edit warring on my part to be met with "hear hear" by SemanticMantis who calls for sanctions against me for hatting, yet here he closes part of a thread he doesn't like even after participating in it himself.

For those uninvolved admins unfamiliar with the so called toronto troll, the user's MO has been start threads about "why do blackk people..." "why do Jewish people..." and then segue into offensive material. I've never (I believe) found it necessary to hat that user, but one can look at the question https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Medeis&diff=prev&oldid=583257615 "How does it feel to be a negress? Do you find it hard on yourself because your race genetically has average 85 IQ?" on my talk page from a bit over a year ago. This is the kind of user whose Ref Desk questions we are told should be ignored, rather than deleted or hatted.

I'd also like to point out to uninvolved admins this archived discussion "[https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk/Archive_111#my_stuff_keeps_getting_deleted My stuff keeps getting deleted" where a now indeffed user complains his edits about making water come out of his mouth by inserting water up his anus were hatted, Tevildo repeated the recent decision that such trolling should be deleted without comment: "these things only work if we _delete_ the offending content and _don't_ have these endless post-mortems about it". I did only then delete the thread, but User Wnt, who wants me sanctioned above, called us "the ethics trolls" and proceeded even further against consensus to answer the question not on the ref desk, but the talk page.

I'd also like to point out to uninvolved admins there's currently 33,000 bytes of discussion going on at the Ref Desk about hatting, etc., with all sorts of rancor, none of which accuses me of any wrongdoing, and in which I have not participated since I am under inquest here.

I'd also like to point out that the IP from Toronto who asked me about my intelligence as a negress has apparently returned here with a race baiting question about how dangerous Sweden is because it allows mixed race dating, yet SemanticMantis unhatted another post on the same board as part of his dispute with BBB, while I remain silent.

Before getting into TLDR, let me summarize. There's no evidence of my edit warring or acting in bad faith. The rules call for hatting or deleting certain questions. Those rules can be changed or borderline questions discussed if necessary; content disputes don't belong here. There's a 33kb discussion about this elsewhere. We simply need clear rules that apply equally to all. μηδείς (talk) 04:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC) μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The fact that you think this is about edit warring just shows that you don't get it and likely never will without being topic banned from deleting/hatting other people's comments.

Snow explained it better than I could in his comment above:

"As one of the RefDesk contributors who has argued most stringently for a cautious and restrictive approach to the professional advice issue, I appreciate Medeis' general concerns and I have no doubt that she takes these actions in good faith and, in each case, in manner that she believes to be consistent with policy. That being said, this ongoing and highly disruptive situation demonstrates that she lacks to the ability to respect the general consensus of her fellow contributors with regard to these circumstances. It's all well and good to say that, in any given scenario, she seems to be acting within the spectrum of good-faith, if toward the extremes, but we long ago passed the point where she should have started to recognize the situations in which she was adopting a WP:SNOW position. Even if she is absolutely certain her interpretation of policy is in the right, and that she's acting in the best interests of the project (and never had cause to doubt that she is acting from this frame of mind), she seems to lack the ability to see (or at least accept) when she is about to take an action in these contexts which is in essence identical the last dozen which the consensus of her fellow editors found to be excessive/in error. The fact that she cannot see that there is nothing to be gained by trying to force her standard approach to these situation, aside from a great deal of wasted energy on the part of numerous contributors, is problematic in the extreme."

"Again, I share many of Medeis' priorities here, but if my actions were the subject of a half-dozen separate talk page discussions, wherein they were generally being regarded as excessive by a large number of other editors, I'd be moderating my approach some, especially if said actions were in the vein of altering other contributor's comments, which is a behaviour that editors are by and large meant to be avoiding outside of great necessity. It's true that the standards in question here are open to some degree of interpretation, but that does not in itself stop Medeis from recognizing when her perspectives are out of sync with the significant majority of her fellow editors and adjusting her approach accordingly. The fact that she has gotten considerable feed/push-back on this particular issue, via numerous discussions and is, if anything, pushing the boundaries in the same area with increasing abandon, suggests that she will not stop on this issue unless she receives an unambiguous mandate, unfortunately." (quote from snow, 08:10, 24 February 2015 (UTC) )

μηδείς/Medeis, do you have any response to the above? Do you deny that it is an accurate description of the situation? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to call me Medeis, the Greek letters are simply to make it easier for me to find my comments. Rather than answer your rhetorical lawyering (since expecting me to argue endlessly is a trap) I would ask you how you respond to Ian.thomson, Inediblehulk, Mandruss, Chillum, Mlpearc, Flinders Petrie, Baseball Bugs, Collect, Liz, DHeyward above, and even SteveBaker (who properly argues for clear rules for all) above? (That's rhetorical, so please don't.) I will point out that the Ref Desks are not talk pages, and they are under the same restrictions as mainspace; BLP, etc. I'll also repeat that I am happy to follow the same rules as everyone else, assuming we adopt 1RR or deletion by Admins only, or keep the BRD status quo. μηδείς (talk) 05:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Evasion noted. I won't bother you with such questions again. I think the reader can easily figure out whether the above is an accurate description of the situation, and further comments by me are unlikely to change any minds here. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Support any and all proposed limitations on Medeis be that a 1RR without exceptions or a complete ban on hatting/closures. Oppose admin only closure/hatting idea as being fundamentally opposed to the way wikipedia works, and the purpose of admins on wikipedia. Also weakly oppose a 1RR for all editors.

I haven't posted yet, primarily because it didn't look like this discussion was going anywhere. Also, I did entertain the notion of bring more evidence to, but decided I couldn't be bothered, and the state of this discussion meant it wouldn't be useful.

I will say I think Medeis is being misleading when they suggest they already follow BRD. This example shows a double closure, there's at least one other very recent case here . It's true that in that case the editor who reverted Medeis was the poster themselves, but that's still beyond the BRD cycle. Now the IP in this latest case is a well known RD troll. (I use the term loosely because I'm not certain if they're a genuine troll, or just a racist editor who likes to call people negress although I suspect they are a troll for a number of reasons.) However it wasn't entirely clear at the time if it was the same editor. More to the point, Medeis's stated reasons for closing didn't mention that, but the suggestion the IP was trying to draw us in to an off wiki debate. That didn't make sense for numerous reasons, including that the blog itself is largely dead. (It also doesn't seem to be part of the trolls MO.) It got even more confusing when I reversed the deletion since Medeis said that they thought the IP was trying to draw traffic the blog which as I explained there, made no sense. Misplaced Pages talk:Reference desk/Archive 112#Closure reverted.

It's true sometimes trolls and other problem editors hang around and revert any attempt to remove their trolling so it's completely normal that editors may sometimes have to revert the original editor. But Medeis's judgement is so poor they really shouldn't be removing/hatting anything, let alone doing it twice no matter who the person who reverted them.

As a loosely related example which I'm only using because I just saw this comment is weird. While I have no problem with the removal of the question from a blocked editor, there's nothing in the OPs question to suggest anything similar to Bowei Huang. (Bowei Huang did occassional ask about stuff relating to the world, but not anything like potty training.)

There is a complicating thing on the Ref Desk namely that there is no status quo. In the case of an article, while it can be complicated, generally BRD means you stay with the status quo, whether someone deletes something, or adds it to the article, that's the bold part which may be reverted leading to discussion. On the Ref Desk, if someone adds a question, or a response, that's not counted as the "bold" part. Removing this response or question is. The upshot of this is that when someone reverts your removal of their response or question, it's much difficult to say that editor isn't following BRD themselves unlike it would be in the article (not that that justifies you not following BRD anyway).

Another difference has already been hinted at by other editors. If someone goes around making bold edits throughout the encyclopaedia, but then never bothers to justify them or when they do, has really poor justification, this isn't generally going to be taken well. Yet Medeis and others above have suggested that it's fine for Medeis to go around making these edits, because they're only bold, and they're in fact probably not going to bother to discuss it. I'm not saying this is wrong, simply that we have to be careful in understanding how BRD works and why it works differently.

Anyway back to the main point, while these are only 2 examples, I'm fairly sure there are more relatively recent cases. And definitely there are way more poor closures from Medeis.

Which is my final point. While experienced editors have no problems finding something from the history (although if you don't know who posted it it can be difficult as the RD is fairly active), nor reverting hats or closures, it's likely confusing, not to mention uninviting to newbies. I'm all for removing genuine trolling etc, to the disagreement of an number of other RD regulars, but I also do appreciate the harm such actions can cause newbies. So we shouldn't think of a bold closure or removal which is very poor as having no impact, just because it's trivial for experienced editors to fix.

Nil Einne (talk) 13:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Call for Close

As is our tradition, no admin at ANI is willing to stop μηδείς/Medeis from continuing this behavior, a large number of other editors are unwilling to accept the behavior without asking ANI for help, and a slightly smaller but still significant number of editors are perfectly fine with the behavior. The traditional parallel discussion at the ref desk talk page is, again according to our longstanding tradition, going nowhere. We might as well close this discussion and wait for the next one, then the one after that, etc. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like a very fair summary. I thought this would work, because it is a minimalist proposal, but the situation seems roughly 50-50. Quite happy to call it a day on this one, although I am still hopeful an admin will agree with the plan. However, if people are looking at taking this further, the other suggestion I had was to compel Medeis to log every closure or hat, on a separate, single wiki page. That would stop us having to trawl through the archives to prove a case, since we could refer to that page for future actions. I avoided it because it is frightfully slow - it takes one ANI to require the logging, and then further ANI's for specific sanctions. If someone wants to start such a motion in the future, assuming there is no improvement, I believe that is the next port of call with ANI's regarding this user, at least as far as "minimalist" suggestions are concerned. IBE (talk) 10:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure medeis won't specifically document their own bad behavior for us. I wouldn't even support such compulsion, e.g. pleading the fifth. So if you'd like you can start a list of documentation on your userspace, or in private. I've thought of doing similar in the past, but it's a pain. If I start stalking medeis' bad closures, then I'm just doing the same obsessive troll hunting that I wish would stop. I've come to the conclusion that medeis' disruptive behavior will never be stopped by asking nicely, and that formal sanctions will require lots of planning and documentation. But I'm more interested in using the ref desks to learn things and provide references... Anyway, if anyone wants to start such a list on-wiki, drop a note at the ref desk talk page, and I'm sure we can fill it with evidence of bad calls and disruptive behavior over the next year. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

List of Presidents of Croatia

Hi. I am involved with this article and the ongoing dispute in which User:Director has pursued a curious position for years now, whereby the list article includes various offices in various states in its scope, with little regard for verifiability. I told him that back in 2011, to no avail. He has continued to advocate this position, with no improvement with regard to WP:V, and recently engaged in an edit war with User:Timbouctou over it. User:Tuvixer also chimed in with a few reverts of their own. Once they finally got off the edit-war-wagon, there was still no resolution to the issue - the article remains in the state where its basic premises in the lead section are not supported by any references, and the page history is littered with insults. This has gone well beyond a simple content dispute and into an unambiguous violation of numerous policies.

On the Talk page, when I recently tried to say something, I was summarily needled by User:FkpCascais as if I was condoning this whole process by not intervening in an issue where my intervention would be seen as a trivial violation of WP:INVOLVED. This whole exercise in ridiculousness really needs to end. I'm hoping another admin can intervene instead of me and dole out some bans and blocks that are apparently necessary, because I'm not seeing that any further discussion is going to be preventing further blatant violation of Misplaced Pages policies, behavioral or content.

For example, I'd give:

• a month-long block to both Director and Timbouctou for the egregious and persistent violations of the edit warring policy, coupled with WP:OWN, WP:POINT, WP:DE, WP:CIVIL, ... violations
• a ban to Director on the topic of the Croatian head of state, broadly construed. Not sure about the duration, because it's been 3-4 years since this started - I don't think it's likely that a short ban would accomplish anything substantial, but it does seem fair to at least try something other than indefinite.
• a final warning to Tuvixer with regard to WP:EW
• a final warning to FkpCascais with regard to WP:DEPE

And that's just for what I saw they did at this particular article. I noticed there have been some disputes on other articles, but I haven't had the time or stomach to analyze it all. There could well be grounds for even stricter sanctions. TIA. --Joy (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The citation that Socialist Republic of Croatia and Republic of Croatia are the same state and the same country can be easily found in the Preamble of the Constitution of the Republic of Croatia. I was going to find all citations necessary and put them on Talk page of that article, but now I see that we have come to a time where it is implied that fear should be the guide in editing certain articles. I don't know if that is what Misplaced Pages was intended, but I will still find the citations, and with your permission User:Joy, put them on talk. Not today, but during next week. Now rule by fiat and martial law is in place on those articles, which is sad and dangerous. That is all from me. I hope no user will be banned, of course if they stop edit warring. Maybe to protected the article for a month, so we can all resolve this on the Talk page of the article, what do you say? I think that is the best solution, because banning users will just make it worse and allow one user to edit the whole article without any consensus. So I think the article should be protected for a month. --Tuvixer (talk) 12:51, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The edit history on the 17th Feb makes intersting reading. WP:25RR anyone? Lugnuts 13:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Why not indeff blocks all-round, while we're at it? Yeah, you can tell old Joy here is WP:INVOLVED..

Timbouctou and I don't get along, that's an established fact (we had an interaction ban). And the knee-jerk edit-war really is inexcusable, I don't pretend otherwise (in fact I said so myself earlier in a pretty amiable chat with Timbouctou). But the thing is - this report is about the article, not me or Timbouctou: there is no edit-war over there now for days, and we are discussing the issue amicably, with several editors contributing their opinions - and its not looking like it'll turn out the way Joy wants. Claims of WP:V violation are opposed on the talkpage as unfounded, and the proposed changes to the article do not have consensus. Last I looked, three users (myself included) currently oppose any changes - this is not a clear-cut issue, at the very least. And as Tuvixer in part points out - this is a political, left/right dispute at its core.

What this really looks like - especially the topic ban - is a means for Joy to circumvent user consensus, and get his way content-wise. The topic ban is especially suspect: I do NOT consider myself the owner of the article nor do I in any way adopt such a stance - but I hope I am allowed to point out that I did pretty much write the thing up (alongside many other officeholder list articles). Now I'm to be topic-banned essentially on the basis of one bout of edit-warring? And that's justified and fair? Nah. That's Joy removing me from the picture over there (ironically while citing DEPE).

So in summation: yeah, I screwed up - big time. I should not have edit-warred, its a silly, stupid, childish thing I did, and I'm ashamed of it - even more so for being around here on Wiki for so long. I blew my top. I apologize, throw myself at the mercy of the court, and plead temporary insanity :).
What I do not like, however, is this one incident of my reverting Timbouctou's recent changes (against consensus mind you!) being blown out of all realistic proportions, turned into some kind of "pattern" - so that it can be used to permanently get me out of Joy's hair. -- Director (talk) 14:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

• Sanctions are supposed to be preventive, not punitive. Seems kind of pointless blocking anyone for edit-warring five days after the incident. Not to get into the idiocy of the meritum here, the whole thing started with Direktor flipping out and provoking an edit-war with the exact purpose of drawing attention from admins to use it to his advantage in a content dispute. The "consensus" he talks about regards his wholly original view of the chronology of officeholders on one of the articles he passionately owns (there are dozens of others, but who cares - certainly not admins, that's for sure). The issue has been raised before, several other editors tried to reason with him over the past several years, and this (uninterrupted edit-warring) seems to be the only way of making him participate in a discussion (I think all my previous blocks were because of him on articles he owned and continues to own). He simply doesn't hear anything, instantly throws hissy fits and throws insults right and left against whoever is "against consensus", or as he calls it, the "longstanding version of the article". In short, he is not here to edit, he is here to censor other people's edits. And has been doing that for years. Tuvixer is a relatively new addition to the project, an editor with WP:COMPETENCE issues who does not hide the fact he is here with a political axe to grind, and who learned all he knows about Misplaced Pages from following Direktor's lead (currently his obsession involves edit-warring over the description of Ivo Josipović's profession and similar bullshit). I guess that's the thing with trolls - to fight one, you have to become one, but if you don't fight them, they just multiply. And I'm just too old for this shit, including the bureaucracy which is required to fight vandals who only need a mouse click or two to cause damage to articles. Where was this promptness and eagerness to help when I was dragged to ANI three times over the past month or so by two puppets on an unrelated article? There are veritable psychopaths up in here but getting them blocked would require like 300 hours of my time compiling evidence, posting diffs, reporting to 17 different noticeboards and enduring 900 pages of rants and essays, explaining the gist of Balkan politics to admins who earned their mops via exemplar and thorough editing of articles on Pokemon. So excuse me if I decide not to follow this thread any more. I have better things to do with my time. Direktor certainly does not. 15:37, 22 February 2015 (UTC)Timbouctou (talk)

Yes, I flipped out - you remained perfectly cool. In every sense of the word. Of course :). And even though I basically wrote the entire thing, I'm not there to "edit", only harass and censor. Only a WP:OWN-addled, "flipped-out" madman, or some "troll" or other, could possibly oppose that small article being split into three or four non-notable fragments... -- Director (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone? --Joy (talk) 16:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Beat me to it. I could start a thread about an admin not being competent that would get looked at pretty quickly, with plenty of mutal back-slapping... Lugnuts 18:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the window closed on any chance of the (exceptionally strong) remedies you are seeking here days ago. If you had brought the matter of the edit warring here or to 3RR as it was happening, I can't imagine either Direktor or Timbouctou would have escaped a block (after-all, the situation speaks for itself). But at present there discussion ocurring on the page which (while still well short of the collaborative spirit we might want to see there) is at least meeting the basic demands of WP:C and seems as if it might work out a reasonable compromise solution. Forestalling that with blocks seems counter-intuitive. Mind you, being familiar with some of the parties here and the history involved between them, I can well imagine that this could slip back into incivility again (and I trust you'll keep us informed if it does) but at the present moment, don't you think it makes sense to try to give this unlikely truce a chance to bear fruit with regard to the content? Snow 17:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't quite see it - there's been no change to the Talk page in the last few days, nor has there been a substantial change to the article. I just don't see the potential for a resolution when nobody has actually backed down from their prior unhelpful stances. Rather, it appears they've just backed off into their corners as if we were in a boxing ring. Classic WP:NOTHERE. --Joy (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

If I may add, it seems to me that we've allowed the normal editorial process to effectively be taken hostage by these incidents. The chance needs to be primarily given to policy-abiding editors, not to any and all of them indiscriminately. Have a look at what User:Tomobe03 wrote in that Talk page discussion, and what, if any, was the response to his arguments. It seems fairly clear to me that they have been dissuaded from actually working on improving the article. A person who has made huge contributions to a gazillion good articles, including many involving Croatian politics, suddenly won't edit this one list article. Admin effort should be spent unclogging these kinds of stoppages. We shouldn't be enabling them by pretending we don't see this kind of an elephant in the room. --Joy (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh stop grandstanding, Joy. Nobody's there atm. But Tomboe not being there obviously means he's been "taken hostage", while others not talking means they're WP:NOTHERE as part of an elaborate scheme to avoid the indeff blocks or whatever else you so solemnly proposed? The difference seems to be whether or not they agree with your apparent views on the issue. Nobody's being "bullied" there, and you really seem to be doing your best to blow out of all proportion what amounts to little more than a half hour of craziness... -- Director (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You're just continuing to prove my point that preventative measures against further shenanigans are warranted. (When's the next half hour of craziness scheduled?) --Joy (talk) 16:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, I guess logically we can best determine that by looking at when the latest occurred before this one. When was that?

And that's the point, of course: with melodrama you're trying to turn this into a "pattern" of some sort, and paint the most productive editor at that article as "disruptive", based on his opposing a change that you openly support ("he has continued to advocate this position "). -- Director (talk) 17:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Productive? The list article we're talking about mainly consists of an unreferenced list. --Joy (talk) 20:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

That's ridiculous and you know it. Nobody in their right mind could seriously doubt those people held the offices as described there. But for the record, if nothing else - I did not compose that list, I placed it in the table. So yeah, I increased the article's size in bytes about three or four times. -- Director (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I see what you did there... yes, nobody in their right mind could possibly object to your ideas. It's just un-possible. --Joy (talk) 09:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

No, you obviously don't "see", because I just pointed out that's not "my idea". -- Director (talk) 12:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I've tried to contact Timbouctou yesterday, directly on his talkpage, to see what his current position is; he has not yet responded: I'm "WP:HERE", not in any "corner". And there's been much discussion since the edit war... The last thing that happened is I pinged FkpCascais and Tuvixer on whether any changes at all are necessary, Tuvixer replied "leave it as it is".

As far as I can gather at this point, Tomboe and Timbouctou want to split the article into three(?) other articles, FkpCascais wants to split the wikitable in the article into two sections (which I don't really mind), while Sundostund, Tuvixer, and myself oppose any changes. Feel free to interpret that for me? I personally call that "no consensus after a decent response", and want to remove the opposed tags from the article... but that's me. -- Director (talk) 16:00, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You're continuing to present this is as a rather frivolous content dispute about the editorial notion of scope, and ignoring the glaring verifiability issue. That's just another proof that you're continuing to be disruptive and that preventative measures against this are necessary. --Joy (talk) 16:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

During the past week I have not edited (at all) simply because RL stepped in. The issue at hand is verifiability. I'm not bent on applying one formula or another to the article, rather applying verifiability policy to the material presented. It appears that opposition from Director stems from asserting ownership over the article - they explicitly refer to several articles as "my stuf" (referring to themselves) copied from this particular list (see ) - claiming consensus or lack thereof somehow invalidates WP:V (see .--Tomobe03 (talk) 17:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@Joy. This is a "frivolous content dispute about scope". Exactly. That's my opinion. Because regardless of whether all those republican heads of state constitute "presidents" in a general sense to your satisfaction - if we want the article's scope to include them, we can. And that was the scope since the article's inception in times past beyond memory. Moreover, all those people had the title "president", formally. I think its really strange for someone to demand "sources" and cry "WP:V" in order to allow the article to continue listing (e.g) the "President of the Presidency of Croatia" alongside a "President of Croatia".

I'm not going to further argue against these vague assertions. It's just meaningless. --Joy (talk) 20:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure; but lets remember its you who brought up the content issue. -- Director (talk) 05:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Tomboe is latching on to a truly pathetic, out-of-context fragment of a sentence, in brackets, where I refer to the general set up of a wikitable which I used in several list articles, and wonder who has copied it to the Slovene list article. But maybe its a window into my psyche? Who can say, really...

As regards the rest - yes, if we want the article to continue to list Yugoslav-era presidents over there (as opposed to creating fifteen political POVFORKS), we're free to do that. -- Director (talk) 17:55, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The statement I referred to was not out-of-context and it is confirmed yet again in this ANI where you referred to yourself as "the most productive editor at that article" (see here ) - paraphrasing "I created/wrote the majority of this article." argument provided at WP:OWN as an example of statements used to imply special privileges regarding a specific article and assert its ownership. I see no purpose of this type of arguing when the matter is clearly addressed by existing policies.--Tomobe03 (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. DIREKTOR (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Redirect and disambiguation muddle

A network of redirects and disambiguation pages has become very muddled and I fear it will take someone with admin tools and a clear understanding of the system to fix it. It's arisen because of Bolterc's desire that AAP should redirect to Aam Aadmi Party (that's a fairly new Indian political party which has recently won a landslide victory in the Delhi state elections). As a result of several changes in the last couple of hours, we now have:

• AAP disambiguation a disambiguation page which lists about 30 articles
• AAP (disambiguation), a redirect to AAP disambiguation
• AAP a redirect to Aam Admi Party
• Aaaap a redirect to Aam Admi Party
• AAAAP (disambiguation) a redirect to AAP
• Aap (disambiguation) a redirect to AAP.

Can anyone set all this to function normally? NebY (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

AAAAP (disambiguation) tagged as R3, that should shift one of them. I'll take a look at the others. Amortias (T)(C) 21:20, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Aaaap also tagged as R3 4 to go. Amortias (T)(C) 21:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I've removed a few of the tagged pages, please let me know if any other administrative action needs to be taken with regards to the articles. Nakon 21:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Bolterc has been a disruptive nuisance from the outset, has been blocked previously and has had both the caste and general India/Pakistan discretionary sanctions warnings. They don't seem to be learning a thing. - Sitush (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I spotted this through CSD. I've moved the dab page back to AAP, and have protected it for the next week. I'll do some more tidying up of the various redirects. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, my apologies. I can't see the sanctions notices, although I could have sworn I did only 15 minutes ago. They've been a nuisance nontheless. - Sitush (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I think Bolterc has made one constructive edit. But they're determined that Aam Admi Party should begin by saying that "AAP redirects here" (because their opponents' article says "BJP redirects here") and not say "for the Pakistani political party, see Aam Aadmi Party (Pakistan)" (because that "maligns" the Aam Aadmi Party), so they keep breaking things. NebY (talk) 22:22, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I just checked the Election Commission of Pakistan website. The party in discussion here is a namesake party which was not even given a symbol to contest elections. http://ecp.gov.pk/Misc/Parties-with-Symbols.pdf Bolterc (talk) 06:17, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

If you don't think the Pakistani party is notable then the correct course of action is to take that article to WP:AFD. As long as it exists, the disambiguations that existed before you got involved would appear to be correct. It is no good complaining that "Modi Bhakts" ("Modi admirers", a reference to the main BJP opposition party at the moment) are manipulating the articles. - Sitush (talk) 10:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You have now AfD'd the thing but have done so incorrectly. I've tried to fix the mistakes but I too seem to be hitting problems (see this attempt in the log entry.) I've become far too reliant on WP:Twinkle but hopefully someone can sort it out. - Sitush (talk) 14:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think I have fixed the AfD nom now. I note that after yet more disruptive editing from Bolterc, Aam Aadmi Party has now been full-protected by RegentsPark. - Sitush (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I've protected it for the very short term and would prefer not to see a longer term protection. Bolterc, I suggest changing your approach, your current one is not working and will end up with a block. And that is never helpful. --regentspark (comment) 17:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You are nonsense. You are the one contributing to caste articles and the person who added the hatnote is a veg supporter obviously caste worshiping people. You guys are bjp supporters whether you admit it or not. Bolterc (talk) 12:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not a BJP supporter. I am not even Indian and have never voted in the country where I do reside. - Sitush (talk) 12:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Ya seems Legit. This is like Dummy Wells claiming i have no idea or nothing to do with illegal use of Copyrighted images on Quora. Bolterc (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean by that comment. Can you please explain why, after Mike Peel kiboshed your efforts to create AAP (disambiguation), you have today created Aap (disambiguation)? - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Nice try, You want to get me blocked. Try things. Bolterc (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Aap (disambiguation) was deleted on 20 February 2015 by Bkonrad. You recreated it and it was deleted again on 22 February by Nakon. You have now recreated it yet again. Why is that page so important to you that you would jeopardise your ability to press for the deletion of Aam Aadmi Party (Pakistan)? NebY (talk) 18:36, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

PM of India is a Criminal accusing AAP as naxalites, but people voted against the corrupt criminal. In a similar way some of the editors are trying to put AAP as a party of Pakistan Origin. On Misplaced Pages the hatnote has made the visitors of Aam Aadmi Party page misdirected to the pak fake party page. Check my comment on https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aam_Aadmi_Party_(Pakistan) Bolterc (talk) 11:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a serious case of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and lack of competence going on here. Blackmane (talk) 00:45, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. There has been a bit of name-calling but perhaps this is the clearest demonstration that we have a POV pusher here. - Sitush (talk) 07:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't care about your rules and corruption within administration. My question is why did you allow in first place the hatnote on aam aadmi party page to be added? Will you allow the same if a pak guy creates a party with name similar as some american party. Why not add those hatnotes as well. Remove hatnote or prove the pakistan party's originality. How many votes did they get in the pak elections? Prove or remove hatnote. Bolterc (talk) 07:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

As I said at the AfD, where you also raised a false argument based on a 2013 source, these parties were not formed until 2014. To the best of my knowledge, the last general election in Pakistan was in 2013 and thus they have quite likely not yet contested even one constituency unless they have been involved in a by-election or some regional assembly election. As I also said at the AfD, there are plenty of parties whose name is similar but who operate in different countries; in such circumstances, dabhats are valid. It seems that you are simply not listening or not understanding, although you are very free with your accusations regarding the conduct of others. - Sitush (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't care what is valid here. Misplaced Pages is misdirecting the new visitors who wants to learn about AAP to some wasteland which i strongly believe the hatnote maligns the name of the new hope party of India on the Internet search market. There is proof of those stats. We will see. Bolterc (talk) 18:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

At this rate, I see a block coming. It's obvious Bolterc is an advocate for the Indian AAP and is prepared to edit war over a hat note that may tie the Indian party to the Pakistani version, however remote a possibility that may be. Furthermore, it is obvious there is some misdirected nationalist fervour going on here. Bolterc, if you don't want to see an indefinite block coming down on your disruptive editing, you're going to have to put aside your nationalist thinking and listen to people. The majority of non-Indian editors here will have few concerns about the politics of your homeland. What they do see is your constant disruption to the project. Blackmane (talk) 00:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

And here we go again .I've rolled it back. - Sitush (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

They have also recreated Aam Aadmi Party (disambiguation) yet again. - Sitush (talk) 18:36, 27 February 2015 (UTC) Strike: it was the acronym disambigs that they were recreating previously - nothing wrong with this one. - Sitush (talk) 18:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, with a primary topic, this is a WP:TWODABS situation: If there are only two topics to which a given title might refer, and one is the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is not needed—it is sufficient to use a hatnote on the primary topic article, pointing to the other article. If I hadn't seen this discussion, I would have put a CSD#G6 template on the page. -Niceguyedc 18:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty (unresolved)

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Akafeatfausty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are obvious, newly created sock puppets, specifically vandalizing articles I edited.

The nature of their edits is exemplified by nonsensical and bogus edit summaries, such as "Visible anchor, mentioned an impt point with source but tangible" and "Grammar check" when just removing spaces and a line break and "incorporating some changes from Kristina451" when he has incorporated nothing but has simply reverted my edit, and "Fix verb tense" when re-adding the same falsehood to the article that I pointed out on his talk page before.

PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty are making identical edits, like replacing the term "high-frequency trading/HFT" with "predatory". Akafeatfausty also uses bogus edit summaries, like claiming to make an edit according to the "Last version as per talk page" when there is nothing even remotely about that on the article's talk page. All within hours. Kristina451 (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The socks have now simultaneously restored their vandalism. PortugueseManofPeace from 03:10 to 03:12 UTC, and Akafeatfausty from 03:15 to 03:18 UTC. Please block indef and roll back their edits. Thanks. Kristina451 (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I met Akafeatfausty (MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) on #wikipedia-en-help discussing an incident on WP:COIN#Kristina451_and_High-frequency_trading regarding Kristina451. Kristina451 has been mass-undoing revisions from:

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

David Adam Kess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

190.10.199.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

166.137.246.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

128.103.224.4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

under all kinds of nonsensical reasons claiming a lack of references, while he/she seems very happy to approve any kind of references or lack thereof that smear the reputation of a specific group of traders. We noticed that Kristina451 claims to be a "professional trader", which probably indicates a personal reason for his/her strong POV and marginalizing behavior against this particular group. We agreed to insert a few true statements into these articles to see if Kristina451 repeats this pattern of flagrantly undoing revisions so long as he/she could keep often false content that was accusative towards high-frequency traders.

For example, in Quote stuffing, Akafeatfausty made the correct call that Citadel LLC is a hedge fund and according to Bloomberg , Citadel Securities LLC is a brokerage firm and investment bank, not a high-frequency trading firm as Kristina451 puts it. Kristina451 reverted Akafeatfausty's changes without even bothering to truth-check those statements just because in that sentence, Citadel Securities was being accused of market manipulation and this was another chance for Kristina451 to smear the reputation of high-frequency trading.

I would say this experiment was a success. I think Kristina451 should be spending his/her doggedness, reference-checking skills and wit towards the betterment of other Misplaced Pages articles, and not waste so much of his/her time on such a juvenile way of smearing the reputation of his/her personal competitors.

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 03:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• I would like to clarify that David Adam Kess and 190.10.199.189 are unrelated to this incident. MelissaHebert is obviously another sock related to the socks PortugueseManofPeace and Akafeatfausty. Kristina451 (talk) 04:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

As I mentioned, Akafeatfausty is MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) from what I can tell, maybe she didn't want to be known by her real name? You can check our IP addresses if you like. We divided the labor so I was monitoring Flash Boys, Virtu Financial, High-frequency trading and Front running because those were longer and I was more familiar with editing while Akafeatfeausty volunteered to do the rest. There's no overlap between our edits because they're on completely separate articles, why I would need to sockpuppet on completely separate articles? I could have handled all the articles by myself if I wanted to. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you know how to use other IPs and therefore mention it can be checked. But it does not have to, the behavioral evidence is crystal clear. Kristina451 (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You know what behavioral evidence is crystal clear? You obsessively policing every single sentence in every single article that mentions high-frequency traders. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 07:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

focusing on a particular topic or aspect is not an issue in and of itself. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

The socks were signed up in short succession: MelissaHebert on 21 February 2015 at 09:18 UTC, PortugueseManofPeace on 21 February 2015 at 23:01 UTC, Akafeatfausty on 22 February 2015 at 22:56 UTC. The first edit was made by MelissaHebert. A rather interesting first edit for a 'new user', a COI filing against me without notifying me about it. The ploy obviously was to try to provoke me with the other two socks to somehow 'show' that the COI filing was justified.

I think it is time to end this. While this ANI was open, almost certainly the same person responsible for the three socks above created another sock that tried to impersonate David Adam Kess on my talk page and signed with David Adam Kess, who I still think is not involved in this incident. Thanks. Kristina451 (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I've caught you red-handed trying to undo all these factually correct edits, such as the one on Citadel Securities LLC, out of your personal spite and conflict of interest. Now you're trying to divert attention from your own wrongdoing with this conspiracy theory about sockpuppeting. I suspect you're the one who created this Shazam puta character yourself to try and falsify a case against me. I'm not surprised:

Upon closer look into your history,

1. Your first edits were of promotional content to an IEX article, which appears to support your agenda against high-frequency traders. This was flagged by MrBill3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

2. Your next edits were of promotional content, which was flagged by Sophie.grothendieck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for WP:COI and harassment, which led to WP:functionaries intervening to remove your violating harassment.

3. Then you went on a long hiatus and came back to revenge report Sophie.grothendieck on WP:COIN although it was months since this user last made an edit.

4. Then you went on a mass-undoing spree against David Adam Kess, whose edits seem valid, just because he didn't share your anti-high frequency trading position.

You have a history of dragging everyone into your childish disputes, each time ending with intervention from administrators and functionaries.

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• You now made it apparent that (you) the puppet master is Sophie.grothendieck. This also explains your untrue claims that you have a history of making, for example here on my talk page. You also created dozens of other socks (I maintain a list of them), most of which are stale. I think the 'whole thing' needs to go to SPI. There is however something that can be handled right away. Kristina451 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You're really grasping for straws here aren't you? Think about how ridiculous some of your claims sound.

- Why would I create another account immediately after you have accused me of sockpuppeting just to post on your talk page?

- Why would I need to create an account just to notify you of edits on an article? You're already aware of these edits, seeing as you have filed a report on this noticeboard and that I've been replying to you.

- Why would I need to impersonate David Adam Kess or Sophie.grotendieck? I've already talked to them on their talk pages and they can speak for themselves.

- Why would I create another account to edit completely separate and unrelated articles? Yoshi and Brian Lee?

- Why would I create another account to complain about you if I had one that existed for a longer time that apparently had a successful complaint about you?

- Why would I create another account 6 months later to out you after you started vandalizing these sites? Sophie.grotendieck seems to have been active during this period and could have done that himself/herself.

Please show us your conspiracy theory list so we can do an IP check and get these ridiculous accusations overthrown. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion to take some (simple) action

Please block these obvious, recently active sock puppets per WP:DUCK and the comments above:

MelissaHebert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Akafeatfausty (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Shazam puta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This would finally allow me to move on with article work. For obvious reasons, I am reluctant to get into content disputes with socks here at ANI. If any established editor wants to know why the sock edits should be undone, please feel free to ask any question. Thank you, and I hope this will get resolved soon. Kristina451 (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Administrators, I want to bring to your attention that Kristina451 deliberately edited this section to remove evidence that I presented which demonstrated that Kristina451 is Shazam puta. Look in the revision history for this section for proof. I think I just caught Kristina451 red-handed again and he/she obviously wanted to hide this. For your convenience, I have readded the content that he/she removed below:

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 23:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Update: You'd think that you would at least try to make this Shazam puta character more convincing. Here's what you posted on my talk page two days ago.

Hello, I'm Kristina451. I wanted to let you know that I undid one or more of your recent contributions to High-frequency trading because they appeared to be promotional. Advertising and using Misplaced Pages as a "soapbox" are against Misplaced Pages policy and not permitted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Misplaced Pages. Thank you.Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Here's what you posted on your own talk page using your Shazam puta account.

Hello Kristina451. I am Shazam puta and really just wanted to take the time to let you know that I undid one or more of your recent contributions to High-frequency trading because they appeared to be promotional. Advertising and using Misplaced Pages as a "soapbox" are against Misplaced Pages policy and not permitted. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about Misplaced Pages. Thank you.

Contrast this to what I wrote on David Adam Kess's account recently:

Hi, I am PortugueseManofPeace. Thanks for your editorial work on Misplaced Pages! There is an incident on the administrators' noticeboard discussing how Kristina451 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been vandalizing your contributions on the High-frequency trading article that I would like to notify you on.

It doesn't require much semantic analysis to realize that Shazam puta has your writing style, not mine. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 23:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You have added this in between my comment and have changed text I wrote. Stop doing that. Add it at the bottom and it is fine. Just so you know, you are comparing the text of a canned template that I posted to your talk page. Kristina451 (talk) 23:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Kristina451 background

I did a further search into Kristina451's background. It appears that during the last WP:COIN investigation into Kristina451, she claimed to the administrators that she was genuinely interested in editing the IEX article and that her account name was not created to harass Sophie.grothendieck. This turned out to be a huge lie:

- It appears that the functionaries forced him/her to change his/her account name just in case he/she was genuinely interested in editing rather than harassing Sophie.grothendieck. However, after the name change, he/she clearly lost interest in editing the article because he/she lost purpose of harassing Sophie.grothendieck and immediately stopped editing.

- Kristina451 waited a long time for the functionaries' attention on him/her to die down before coming back. When she returned, her first edit Sophie.grothendieck was to file this probably false report on the administrator's noticeboard to harass Sophie.grothendieck again.

This seems to be a violation of the good faith that the functionaries have shown Kristina451 and displays that his/her intention was to harass people rather than to edit articles. I believe that Kristina451 is just repeating his/her pattern here and trying to harass David Adam Kess and myself instead and he/she is repeating her lie that she wants to go back to editing articles. Please don't fall for this. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 23:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• You are making it more and more clear that you are Sophie.grothendieck. Kristina451 (talk) 01:26, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

See above.

You're really grasping for straws here aren't you? Think about how ridiculous some of your claims sound.

- Why would I create another account immediately after you have accused me of sockpuppeting just to post on your talk page?

- Why would I need to create an account just to notify you of edits on an article? You're already aware of these edits, seeing as you have filed a report on this noticeboard and that I've been replying to you.

- Why would I need to impersonate David Adam Kess or Sophie.grotendieck? I've already talked to them on their talk pages and they can speak for themselves.

- Why would I create another account to edit completely separate and unrelated articles? Yoshi and Brian Lee?

- Why would I create another account to complain about you if I had one that existed for a longer time that apparently had a successful complaint about you?

- Why would I create another account 6 months later to out you after you started vandalizing these sites? Sophie.grotendieck seems to have been active during this period and could have done that himself/herself.

Please show us your conspiracy theory list so we can do an IP check and get these ridiculous accusations overthrown. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You edited Brian Lee with your 'Sophie.grothendieck' account . The obvious reason for your socking is to avoid scrutiny, and to try to disguise that you are involved in the high-frequency trading (HFT) hedge fund called Domeyard . This easily explains all your HFT related POV pushing. Kristina451 (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Your conspiracy theory gets fresher by the day! You invented a Shazam puta and now you invented a Dome Yard on your talk page, you aren't very creative with names aren't you? Who are you going to associate me with next? There is no HFT point of view in Akafeatfuasty's or mine if you actually bothered reading my edits and truth-check.

Nanex critcizes vocal users of high-frequency trading

Nanex critcizes vocal users of high-frequency trading and dark liquidity

HFT firms make up the low margins with incredible high volumes of tradings,

HFT firms make up the low margins with incredibly high volumes of trades,

This actually shows that you're mass undoing the revisions without any discretion, which shows that you are the one with an WP:COI here, which is what Akafeatfuasty alleged in the first place on #wikipedia-en-help and that's why I was helping her! PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 14:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/4583.html

• PortugueseManofPeace is back to the same unconstructive editing pointed out above. Uses a summary of "Fixed claim, clarified defect reports, fixed disambiguation" when tinkering with spaces and line breaks. Kristina451 (talk) 19:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make one right. David, Melissa and I agreed to stop WP:MEAT. I want to go back to regular editing and will avoid arguing with Kristina even though that's what she wants. Admins, please close this report if this is a satisfactory result. Shazam puta and 198.0.163.1 seem to be her accounts though, if you continue hearing from her account, please investigate her not us. At least I can be honest and own up to my mistakes. She can use them to stalk me like she stalked David if she wants. I hope she eventually gets bored of vandalizing those articles and stalking. Thank you. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Forged signature, editing other people's comments

IPV6 address from Belgium pretending to be an IPV4 address from Canada and faking the posting time for good measure. Not sure what to make of this or whether any action is needed but I thought I should raise a flag. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

2A02:A03F:12DA:D300:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs) Add link to this users edits as they might need examination for accuracy. One of the edits uses a blog as a source. MarnetteD|Talk 01:22, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

And now he is editing other people's comments.--Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

And again. (...Sound of Crickets...) --Guy Macon (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

(...CHIRP... ...CHIRP...)

Four IPV6 addresses used so far:

• 2A02:A03F:12DA:D300:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:1221:E100:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:12E6:5500:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)
• 2A02:A03F:12DD:D700:213:20FF:FE3B:A79E (talk · contribs)

And (what a shock!) he is also a spammer. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hello, I have no idea what is happening here. Some IP user added a comment with a fake IP signature and a fake date from two months ago. I have no idea why anyone would want to fake a name and date. I responded to them and they wanted my comment and their comment deleted. I cannot imagine why - the question was fair enough and maybe other people would want to see it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My guess is that he is experimenting with using an IP-hopping proxy to spam Misplaced Pages and thinks that by forging his IP address and posting date and deleting your comment pointing out that he forged his IP address he will be able to avoid detection. What he doesn't realize is that his ham-handed attempts to hide his activity make him stand out like a sore thumb and will no doubt result in his favorite proxies being blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

COULD WE PLEASE GET SOME ADMINISTRATOR HELP HERE??? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Guy Macon. I've semi-protected the article for now. Sam Walton (talk) 19:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Because he has pretty much announced that he is going to keep on spamming the Camgirl page, might I suggest a temporary rangeblock of ? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Because of spam at at Camgirl, Camgirl is now semiprotected. Of course there are plenty of other potential spam targets such as Erotic photography, but one can only hope that he tumbles on to the fact that every time he spams it gets reverted and gives up. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Interesting delevopment at User talk:Guy Macon#Blocking... --Guy Macon (talk) 10:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Guy, regarding your comment #above, "he has pretty much announced that he is going to keep on spamming the Camgirl page", In that diff he's just arguing, which is what we do here. Don't we routinely delete people's IP addressed when they inadvertently disclose them and ask for deletion (or "oversight" or "rev del" or whatever you call it?) And isn't that what this person seems to be trying to achieve. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

If, as appears likely from his latest comments, he is willing to stop deleting other people's comments and edit warring, then I will switch from "stop the disruption" mode to "help the newbie" mode, redacting his IP address in my comments and seeing whether I can arrange for his IP address to be revdeleted from the history. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

It looks like he has decided to stop edit warring and deleting, so I am going to wait until all the semi-protections expire, wait a few more days to make sure that he doesn't start up again, then redact every place where I mentioned his IP address and look into the feasibility of asking for revdels.

All of which I would have been happy to do on the first day if he had simply listened instead of ignoring warnings, changing/deleting other people's comments, and edit warring. I really do hope that he registers a username and becomes part of the community instead of being soured by this experience. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikihounded by "newcomers"

Hello,

Since M.Bitton and Historian Student's multiple socks have been blocked (1 week for the first, indef. for the second's socks), some "new contributors" appeared, whose only contributions were to revert my edits using the same edit summaries and putting back the controversial versions previously made by M.Bitton and Historian Student and repeating the disruptive behavior that characterized both Historian Student (talk · contribs) and M.Bitton (talk · contribs).

These "new comers" are Ms10vc (talk · contribs) and Sidihmed (talk · contribs), plus an edit from IP 148.163.92.84 (talk · contribs · WHOIS).

Wile Ms10vc is obviously not a sock but just a disruptive editor (he participated for months on the French Misplaced Pages where he had been previously blocked for personal attacks against me (edited: my bad, he was blocked 2 times for personal attacks but not against me... really sorry!) and disruptive editing (edited, Omar-toons (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)), and seems that he wants to start the same thing here), Sidihmed is clearly a sock (but who is the sockmaster? then, how could an SPI be opened without knowing if it is Historian Student or M.Bitton?).

Btw, I ask admins to block these accounts or, at least, to semi-protect the articles that were targeted by Historian Student and his multiple socks as well as by these two "new comers":

• List of wars involving Algeria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Moroccan Wall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ahmad al-Tijani (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Tijaniyyah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Sand War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Morisco (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ottoman Algeria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Regards
--Omar-toons (talk) 16:05, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Sure. But Omar-Toons, one of the best ways to combat disruption is article improvement. Just saying. I'm not familiar with User:FAIZGUEVARRA, who's been active on one of those back in 2011; something to look into perhaps. Please ask DoRD to run CU on Sidihmed and the other, whom I've already blocked. Drmies (talk) 17:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
• Wait. Old timer alert. Who was that joker, a few years ago, doing all this stuff on Y-chromosomes and haplotypes or whatever? This edit has a bunch of that sciency talk. And Omar-Toons, this edit, which I think you endorse on the talk page, seems to remove really reliably sourced content, rather than stuff that's "devoid of meaningful information and pointless". Dougweller, do you have an opinion to offer? Drmies (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Drmies, I can't recall. Dougweller (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• See also: WP:ANEW#User:Omar-toons reported by User:Chemsdine-badouri (Result: Nominating editor blocked) (and I have also reopened Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Historian Student). Bencherlite 19:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

My bad, I'm confused: Ms10vc was effectively previously blocked on FR.Wiki for personal attacks, but actually not against me. Also, Drmies blocked him for sockpuppettry, but I don't think that he's a sock (as said before), but just a disruptive editor.

For Morisco (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), I found that the section was irrelevant, but we are still discussing it (the IP user removed it before we actually got a consensus, but that's another issue). Actually, I think that some information that it contained could be copied to a section to create that could deal with socio/cultural matters. As I just wrote: that subject should be discussed more and more...

For the FAIZGUEVARRA thing, this vandal didn't show up for more than 3 years, I don't think that he's linked to that... but that's juste my (h) opinion...

Regards,

--Omar-toons (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Drmies: actually there is some WP:SYNTH issue related to genetics, I still don't understand how the given refs actually support the statement they are linked to, I tried to discuss it but actually got no answer (or rather a rethoric), and when I added a {{failed verification}} tag it was immediately removed.

Btw, I tried a last time, but I'm giving up after this try if there's nothing new with Asilah1981 (who persists on keeping these refs).

Regards,

--Omar-toons (talk) 00:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Amusing account of events Omar-toons. As you know I began editing this article and approaching you in a highly positive and constructive manner. Three editors who you have been in conflict with over this issue have requested you to take this edit conflict to RFC and we hope you do initiate such a step. It feels like very forceful agenda pushing, and it is a very strange and convoluted agenda at that! I can't see where your desire could come from! In any case, I am still assuming good faith and struggling to answer your increasingly incomprehensible arguments. Asilah1981 (talk) 18:35, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Richard Thomas (author)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An SPA Wickerkat (talk · contribs) has padded out, since 2011, the Richard Thomas (author) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article to ridiculous extent, essentially putting Thomas' entire CV in the article. I removed most of it earlier today, and Wickerkat has restored it. More experienced judgment calls would be desirable. I also believe there are problems with BLP sourcing and the like, but I haven't looked too hard. Choor monster (talk) 18:07, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

A blue-linked WP:NOTAMAZON would be useful here. --NeilN 18:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Reverted it and left them a note about unsourced information. The additions removed included direct links to the purchasing pages on amazon, large amounts of unsourced BLP additions and WP:MOS issues all over the place and external linking issues that I stopped counting when I got to 20. Amortias (T)(C) 18:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I should point out that published fiction is normally its own source, and that there were references (but whose quality I did not check too seriously) in the SPA version which I removed, leaving the article without any references. Clean-up is needed, but perhaps the SPA has to get the message first. I should also point out I may have removed too much (some of the awards I deleted might actually be of interest and be sourceable) but like NeilN, giving up is a lot easier. Choor monster (talk) 18:23, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Will have to see how it goes if they're willing to discuss inclusion of the material properly sourced thats one think but blanket reinstating advertising and unsourced information to a BLP needs to be kept watch of.Amortias (T)(C) 18:27, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Not giving up, the article first has to be drastically trimmed, then built up properly again if sourced properly. Book lists should contain notable works, not every single thing the subject has written. The editor also touched Stephen Graham Jones which was in similar shape, including a copyright violation. --NeilN 18:33, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The books do not need to be individually notable. See WP:LISTN. Choor monster (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Which is balanced by WP:NOTDIR. I agree the entries do not have to be notable enough to have their own articles but for authors with many works, we should be using something more than "it exists" as an inclusion criteria. --NeilN 14:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You stated before, "Book lists should contain notable works", and that was what is incorrect. Either the book list is appropriate, or it isn't. Actually, nothing about NOTDIR suggests author bibliographies are inappropriate. Meanwhile, I am opposed to short story lists in general (I am agreeing with the rest of your sentence). The most notable writers, where RS's hang on their every word, yes. The rest, no, because of WP:UNDUE. Choor monster (talk) 16:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The situation is analogous to "Likewise an article on a business should not contain a list of all the company's patent filings." --NeilN 00:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I welcomed the editor and left them a long note, then went hunting for sources. I've added what I could but wound up nominating the article for deletion. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a quick note that from the last few edits to their talk page, Wickerkat is actually the author himself. Blackmane (talk) 00:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• As the OP, I will comment that Wickerkat/Richard Thomas has been completely co-operative, there is ongoing discussion on his user talk page, so if there are no objections, I will non-admin close this discussion tomorrow. Thank you everybody. Choor monster (talk) 13:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Likely POV-forking of Lhasa

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(The subject title may not be completely fair to Aymatth2 (talk · contribs), but I can't think of a better way of characterizing it. Also pinging Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) and Zanhe (talk · contribs), who had been involved in the discussion there.)

These users (largely Aymatth2) and I had been engaging what I thought had been good-faith, if heated, discussions about 1) splitting Lhasa into two articles and 2) what the proper names and the scope of those articles should be. (See the discussions at WT:CHINA#Category:Lhasa Prefecture.) Neither side has been able to convince the other, apparently. But I would like neutral administrator(s) involved in the matter now because it appears that POV-forking may be occurring - as just within the last couple days, Aymatth2 disclosed that he had been writing a separate article in his user space (which he is free to, of course) and planning on then moving it into the main namespace as a completed article. (See the postings toward the end of the discussion - specifically the quote of "I take it that when I request a move into mainspace of the draft article on the prefecture-level region you will either vote to merge it into Lhasa, or after seeing what it looks like you will support the move.") This, as I have been arguing, would disrupt the naming convention formed by years of consensus at WP:NC-ZH and should not be done. I don't disagree with splitting the Lhasa article (and I don't think there is any dispute from anyone else). I disagree with the manner that he's going at it - by proposing a disruption of the naming convention and not addressing the counterarguments.

It sounds to me that this, while not vandalistic behavior nor POV-warring in the classic sense, nevertheless is effectively POV-forking. I've quoted the criteria of POV-forking to him and hoping that he would reexamine this. However, as I said, I am hoping that neutral administrators can get involved in case my own judgment is being clouded by the argument (which is likely) and also see if there is some other way to resolve the matter. Aymatth2's contributions are valuable. But I think in this case I want to try to end/moderate the dispute before I have to effectively argue that good contribution should be deleted because of POV and disruption of consensus as reflected in the naming convention.

Again, help is wanted for my own sanity and the sanity of all those involved. --Nlu (talk) 18:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

"POV forking", yes, is quite a ridiculous accusation. I think you have to look at how large the Lhasa reigonal area is and how feasible is it to cover it all in the main article. The city alone, especially historically has enough to be said about it, let alone decent information on the economic practices etc of the wider region. I agree with Aymatth2 that it is practical to have both. I would encourage the same for any city in China with a wider regional area. It really is like saying you can't have an article on New York State itself, only New York City. I'd have Lhasa as the main settlement article and Lhasa (prefecture-level city) for the overall regional area with hatnotes putting each in context.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have not yet started an article on Lhasa Municipality, but plan to do so in my user space in the next two or three weeks. I will then formally propose a move to mainspace. I have discussed this on the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject China page, and find no valid objection to slightly changing the scope of the article on Lhasa to focus on the well-known small city, with a separate article describing the 13,000 km municipality that surrounds it. Any concerns can be brought up in the requested move discussion. Aymatth2 (talk) 19:31, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, I have never opposed a split. I have, and I think with good reasons that neither you nor Aymatth2 addressed, opposed the naming and scope as proposed. Therefore, the comparison to the New York city/state situation is not apt. Moreover, one of my main objections is that "Lhasa" (as a "small city") is poorly defined. New York City is well-defined as the five boroughs. That makes the situation completely different, actually. Regardless of the merits, though, it is still POV-forking. POV-forking is not the same as, "Everything that is written is/will be trash." In fact, it is often that that is not the case - that the POV-forker's position has substantial merit - that led to the POV-forker to be ardent enough in his/her position to conduct POV-forking - just as what Aymatth2 is doing here. I trust that what Aymatth2 writes is not going to be trash. But it's the failure to address the substantial merits of the opposing position that makes it POV-forking. And note what you are saying here: "I would encourage the same for any city in China with a wider regional area." That is exactly the reason why it shouldn't be done. If extended in this manner, it would destroy WP:NC-ZH's geographical naming consensus such that it would no longer be usable. It would fracture the naming scheme into a jumbled mess, if this logic is followed. --Nlu (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: Forking is not the issue. The requested move would combine putting the article about the municipality into mainspace with focusing the Lhasa article on the small city. Is your concern that a requested move of this hypothetical article if approved may upset the project naming conventions? This is a strange incident report. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

  I would say that it's an unusual incident report. It's both a report of your behavior (as a highly productive editor but in this case I feel questionable) and my own behavior. I wanted to get neutral parties involved before it get any problematic on both of our parts. --Nlu (talk) 00:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: If I have been impolite at any stage in this discussion I apologize. Diffs would be useful. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  No apology necessary. As I've noted, I feel that the questionable behavior is potentially both ways, and that's why I want neutral parties involved. But I would like substantive responses. Effectively, it still comes down to that I am not hearing, as far as I am concerned, any substantive response to my main points of 1) this situation is not unique to Lhasa and that there is no compelling reason to break up the naming convention consensus (which you did not respond to but Dr. Blofeld did, I'll concede - but I find his response to be a horrendous one given the implications that effectively destroy the naming convention) and 2) there is no verifiable, definitive definition of "Lhasa" (as a small city) other than the potential PRC definition of it as coterminal with Chengguan District, which nobody in the discussion (perhaps myself included) liked as a verifiable, definitive definition of "Lhasa." The good theory of a "small city article" for Lhasa is, until such a definition can be rendered, practically fatally flawed in my opinion because if there is no commonly-accepted definition of "small city of Lhasa" (and none was given throughout the discussion by you or by Dr. Blofeld) then the article is necessarily going to be original research and POV-oriented. I've offered up the possibility that such a definition may be obtainable from the Tibetan government in exile - but until that occurs, there is none. (No PRC official site that I can find contains any such definition (although the Lhasa City government site that I gave a link to hints at one - and for that matter, ROC governmental sites, having effectively disavowed control of mainland, including Tibet, doesn't contain any such definition (and as I noted, has not for decades).) These are points that I'd like to see addressed, even if there is no agreement with me. A non-response is not a response, and throughout the discussion, I am feeling that I am making cogent points that I am fully aware that not all will agree with - but then effectively end up talking to a wall as neither you nor Dr. Blofeld respond to them. It is very frustrating. It has led to potentially questionable choice of language on my part (which is why, again, I'd like neutral parties involved), not to mention stress and frustration at the lack of response. I think anyone reading over the entire thread in WT:CHINA will agree that effectively we're talking in circles. I am admitting that I may have some fault in it. I do believe that my points still deserve better than a non-response to my substantive points and a response of, effectively, "I'm going to do it anyway" and "I don't care what you think" and "I'm going to ignore whatever negative consequences you bring up because I think they're not negative consequences." --Nlu (talk) 01:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• WP:POVFORK is not relevant to this situation, because there is no attempt to promote a POV here. Trying to label this disagreement as such is a profoundly unhelpful escalation. Kanguole 01:20, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  The reason why I think it is a POV-forking are this - based on the descriptions given at WP:POV fork (and again, note that the definitions don't require that the POV fork be junk or be done with bad faith - and I don't think that Aymatth2 writes junk at all):

  1. "Instead of resolving that disagreement by consensus, another version of the article (or another article on the same subject) is created to be developed according to a particular point of view. (In this case, the POV is "the prefecture-level city of Lhasa" is not really "Lhasa.")
  2. "It could be that the fork was a good idea, but was approached without balance" (In this case, nobody is disputing that it may be a good idea to split Lhasa; it is, however, in my opinion (which I realize may not be agreed with - which is part of the dispute) approached without balance (in this case, the two main objections that I had above that are unaddressed and dismissed in a dismissive manner (is that redundant?)).
  3. "The most blatant POV forks are those which insert consensus-dodging content under a title that should clearly be made a redirect to an existing article; in some cases, editors have even converted existing redirects into content forks. However, a new article can be a POV fork even if its title is not a synonym of an existing article's title." (In this case, it dodges the WP:NC-ZH consensus that, for proper styling and consistency reasons, the articles with the names of the prefecture-level cities should refer to the prefecture-level city. And, as I was objecting a few weeks back, in effect, an existing redirect is being converted into a content fork. And the last sentence of the portion I quoted effectively anticipates the situation that we are in now: that a naming dispute is being dodged by the creation of a new article.)
  4. "The creator of the new article may be sincerely convinced that there is so much information about a certain aspect of a subject that it justifies a separate article." (That's exactly what we are having here.)
  5. "Any daughter article that deals with opinions about the subject of parent article must include suitably-weighted positive and negative opinions, and/or rebuttals, if available, and the original article should contain a neutral summary of the split article." (This is, based on the tenor of the discussion, not going to be adhered to - while this description largely refers to a situation where something is being praised/attacked rather than what we have here, the description is still apt; the POV being advanced is, "Anything other than the small city of Lhasa is not really 'Lhasa'" (and note that we still do not have a proper definition, even in this discussion here).) Indeed, the tone is (in not as impolite terms, but still comes down to) "I don't care if I can't define 'Lhasa'; it's not the prefecture-level city; and I'm going to create an article that defines the prefecture-level city as 'not Lhasa' whether you like it or not, and no matter what it does to the naming convention.") This is disruptive, even if there is no intent to disrupt. And it is POV that is non-neutral. A neutral POV solution would be not intentionally creating a substantial deviation from the naming convention. It would instead address the issue of the history/culture/urban development within the article itself or within a daughter article that properly acknowledges that there could be several definitions of "Lhasa." It certainly wouldn't simply disregard (whether it ultimately deviates or not from it) the analogous situations with other prefecture-level cities.

  I don't see how why this is not POV-forking. Indeed, it seems to fit POV-forking's definitions quite well. Again, that doesn't mean that material that is being written is junk. But it is a POV fork to dodge the naming convention. --Nlu (talk) 01:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  There is a difference of opinion on whether or not the article should be split into two articles of different scopes. The argument is about naming conventions, while the essence of POV-forking is that the purpose of a fork is to avoid the NPOV policy. That is quite a serious accusation, and trying to recast different views about naming and scope as misconduct of that sort is very inappropriate and needs to stop. You need to find a way to get more editorial (not administrative) views on the original naming issue. Kanguole 09:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  @Kanguole: With all due respect - and perhaps your voice is the type that needs to get involved lest that I get overly heated on this - I think if you read the thread in question on WP:CHINA, you will see that that has exactly been what Aymatth2 and I have been trying to do, and that the situation is deteriorating because I am feeling that Aymatth2 is not at all responding to my concerns and perhaps the feeling is mutual. Dr. Blofeld's lack of incivility (an example is shown below with his accusing me effectively of being a PRC puppet) hurt the discussion rather than help it. It requires intervention. Call it editorial or administrative, it still requires intervention. --Nlu (talk) 16:24, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Kanguole Basically Nlu is arguing that we cannot have a separate article on the Lhasa regional unit from the city itself purely because the PRC constitutes Lhasa officially as a "prefecture-level city". What he's not seeing is that from an encyclopedia development view point just one article on a major city and the wider rural area of 13,000 square kilometres is not a feasible way to cover it. Lhasa should cover just the city and Lhasa (prefecture level city) article should overview the entire region. As I say it's much like thinking you're not allowed an article on new York State, all the info about wider rural practices must be covered and mixed in with the urban info on New York City. The naming, if that is genuinely Nlu's primary concern is a minor issue at best and can quite easily be settled by hatnotes, whatever we call them. As I say I think Lhasa should cover the city and Lhasa (prefecture-level city) should cover the region, as that appears to be the official regional type.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:34, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: Mount Nyenchen Tanglha is 7,162 metres (23,497 ft) high. The Pangduo Hydro Power Station generates 599 GWh annually. Reting Monastery in Lhünzhub County was founded in 1057. The article on Lhasa is mostly about the small city, as it should be, and does not give this type of information about the broader area. It is bizarre to say a proposal to add an article on the region would be an attempt to create a POV fork and an incident that requires administrator intervention. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  @Aymatth2: This is still not a definition. It points to what is in it, but not to the extent. (Plus, it's also not defined by a particular verifiable source or sources.) Is "Apple headquarters and its surrounding areas" a proper definition of Cupertino, California? You might say so, based on the analogy above. I don't. --Nlu (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

  Aymatth2, the Bonin Islands are farther from urban Tokyo than Korea, but they're still included in the Tokyo article, because they're officially under the jurisdiction of Tokyo. -Zanhe (talk) 23:40, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Nlu, have you actually been monitoring what Aymatth has accomplished to date for Lhasa regional articles? It's the best work I've seen done regionally in China for quite some time. WP:China is lucky he's spending a lot of time on this. Just let him get on with it eh? Your excessive concern about territory here just looks to me as if you're thinking "Oh no, tremble tremble, what are PRC going to think, I might be shot for allowing this, this is terrible". I think it's quite clear in sources what is referring to the city and the wider region, we don't need to define the exact boundaries anyway. The PRC obviously have a rough idea that the urban area constitutes 53 square km though, so there is actually some official boundary in existence. Whatever we call the article, a hatnote and the actual content of the article should make it crystal clear what we're doing anyway and no reader is going to worry about it. This is totally inappropriate for ANI, an admin please close.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Your New York analogy is broken, because New York City and the state are not the same; if we want to use the New York analogy, Lhasa is New York, and the New York City analogue is Chengguan District. Dr. Blofeld, what do you mean by "an article on the region"? Tibet Autonomous Region#Administrative divisions makes it look as if there's no regional intermediary between the city and the autonomous region. WP:NC-ZH says The default naming pattern is "X Class", e.g. Taihang Mountains, Hai River, Fei County. Articles for provinces and cities can leave out the class name, e.g. Liaobei, Beijing. Since the page requires the city article to be at Lhasa, and since the city embraces 30,000 km, not just the little urban core, can you explain how Lhasa should cover the city and Lhasa (prefecture-level city) should cover the region is in line with the naming convention? The convention must be followed, regardless of contrary discussion at the talk page, and administrative tools need to be used if it's repeatedly violated. Nyttend (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

This is inappropriate, Dr. Blofeld, and you know it. And this is the kind of dismissive behavior that I'm talking about. The lack of any verifiable, non-original research definition of what "Lhasa" (the small city) is is a real problem with the five pillars of Misplaced Pages, not the "five pillars of PRC." (Specifically, this is not-NPOV - with the OR prohibitions part of being that - and you, throughout this discussion, have been at least borderline uncivil and now have gone into full-blown incivility; I feel that Aymatth2 (and admittedly, possibly myself) have also bordered on it due to the lack of intervention, which is exactly what I'm trying to get.) This is an attack based on ethnicity/national origin and is entirely inappropriate. (As I've said, I'm from Taiwan; but had my view points been expressed by an editor from the PRC, it would still be inappropriate.) Again, this kind of thinking is why exactly this is a POV fork. This kind of thinking underlined the unilateral efforts to break the WP:NC-ZH convention - which was reached by Misplaced Pages editors, not imposed by the PRC or any other government. Again, POV forking. Not with bad intentions. But POV forking nonetheless. And this kind of thinking taints the otherwise valuable efforts to contribute. --Nlu (talk) 16:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu:. Officially, for census purposes, metropolitan Lhasa consists of the six urban neighborhoods of Chengguan District, Lhasa. It has sprawled into towns in Doilungdêqên County like Donggar and Niu New Area. Many reliable sources such as Interpreting Urbanization in Tibet talk of the city in this way. We just have to follow the sources. There is no original research needed, no biased point of view. There is indeed a relatively compact built-up area surrounded by a huge and thinly populated area of mountains and grasslands. It is quite standard to describe two such areas in two articles. If the project naming conventions do not allow for that, an exception can be made. But this is not the place to discuss the question – the planned Requested Move is the place for the discussion. There is no incident here that needs administrator attention. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Sounds very similar to Honolulu vs. Honolulu County:

    Honolulu County (officially known as the City and County of Honolulu, formerly Oahu County) is a consolidated city–county located in the U.S. state of Hawaii. The City and County includes both the city of Honolulu (the state's capital and largest city) and the rest of the island of Oʻahu, as well as several minor outlying islands, including all of the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands (islands beyond Niihau) except Midway Atoll.

    For statistical purposes, the U.S. Census Bureau recognizes the approximate area commonly referred to as "City of Honolulu" (not to be confused with the "City and County") as a census county division (CCD).

  • --NE2 17:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, quite similar, and it would be unfeasible to bloat the Honolulu main article with bloat about economic practices and geography of the entire island wouldn't it? For encyclopedia development purposes we have two areas of focus, one on the urban area itself and one on the overall wider region.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:31, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The situation is quite similar, but the key difference is that the US government defines a separate "City of Honolulu" for statistical purposes, whereas the Chinese government does not define a separate "Small City of Lhasa" apart from the large prefectural-level city. Aymatth2's proposal is essentially that in the absence of an official government definition, we should define one on our own, possibly supported by a few cherry-picked sources, which I believe is original research and breaks the WP:NC-ZH convention. -Zanhe (talk) 23:28, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Zanhe: Places that range in size from Soho to the Sahara have articles despite having no official government definition. There really is a small city called Lhasa, described by many sources. Project naming conventions cannot prohibit us from having an article about the place. I am intrigued by these frantic efforts to prevent the article on Lhasa from focusing on the small city of Lhasa, the topic any reader would expect to find when they use that search term. Again, the proposed Requested Move discussion is where the question should be explored. There is no incident here that needs administrator attention, just a debate about one article versus two. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Soho and the Sahara are well known places that no government has tried (or has the authority) to give an exact definition. In the case of Lhasa, however, an official definition already exists, but you don't think it's good enough. If I proposed to start an article called Tokyo minus the Bonin Islands, because I, like many people, don't consider the Bonin Islands as real Tokyo, would you support my proposal? -Zanhe (talk) 11:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Zanhe: As you know, Lhasa Chengguan District (Chinese: 拉萨市城关区; pinyin: Lāsà shì Chéngguān qū) may be translated "Lhasa city urban district". Most people would think of the city as only being the six urban neighborhoods in the valley floor, not the four rural townships in the surrounding mountains. The census makes that distinction to divide the population into "urban" and "rural". Some might think the sprawl down the valley into Doilungdêqên County is really part of the city. But Chengguan District is close enough if we have to conform to some official definition of the city, which I would question. I still do not see that suggesting there should be one article for Lhasa, the well-known small city, and another for the less well known 29,274 square kilometres (11,303 sq mi) former Lhasa prefecture, now Lhasa prefecture-level city, is an incident requiring administrator intervention. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • An ANI certainly might have been unnecessary had you been willing to concede, or at least address a few of the points that you are apparently now conceding/discussing. It also might have been unnecessary without the condescending, ethnically-charged attitude that Dr. Blofeld has displayed (including here in this thread) - which, frankly, has I think also infected your view of the situation. It also might have been unnecessary had you not effectively threatened to unilaterally implement what you believe to be the proper way to address the split (which, again, I think nobody has contested the concept of, but I do contest the implementation as proposed) by stating that you are writing a "prefecture-level city article" when one exists already - in other words, a POV fork.
  • But what it comes down to, in addition to POV-forking concerns (and I indicate outright that this is not the typical POV-forking situation), and more fundamentally problematic, are the original research and lack of verifiability aspects of it. Those do need (or at least may need) administrator intervention because of the lack of neutral voices before you (again, in my opinion; I realize you may reasonably see it otherwise) raised the stakes by effectively threatening an unilateral implementation. I am an administrator, obviously, but I can't and shouldn't be both advocate and judge. Somebody else needs to be involved, and we do have a couple additional voices involved now - one believing this is not an administrative matter (@Kanguole:) and one who, while not apparently necessarily agreeing with everything I'm arguing, believing that the breach of WP:NC-ZH is a serious matter (@Nyttend:). Again, getting good, neutral voices involved is a good thing, whatever their opinions are, as well as they're founded solidly (which they are). I hope that that will get everybody involved here to reexamine their positions. Certainly, though, I still believe that OR, V, and breaking of consensus (as reflected in the naming convention) are serious matters. --Nlu (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: I have not "threatened a unilateral implementation". I have noted that I expect to prepare a draft article in userspace describing the prefecture-level city, and to submit a Requested Move for editors to review and discuss. I believe this is the correct process. It will be much easier for editors to comment when they can compare the present Lhasa article to the proposed Lhasa (prefecture-level city) article. The request will note that if the move is rejected, the prefecture-level content can be merged into the Lhasa article. If it is accepted, the Lhasa article should be focused on the small city, which requires very little adjustment since it is almost entirely about the small city anyway, and Chengguan District, Lhasa should be merged into Lhasa. The lead can start:

Lhasa (officially Lhasa Chengguan District, Chinese: 拉萨市城关区; pinyin: Lāsà shì Chéngguān qū) is a small city in Lhasa prefecture-level city, formerly Lhasa Prefecture...

I see no forking, no original research, and nothing unreasonable about this proposal. A Google Books or Google News search shows that a reader looking for "Lhasa" is almost certainly looking for an article about the small city. There are many examples of separate articles for a city and the region surrounding it.

The standard hatnote on the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Chinese) says: "This guideline ... is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." The specific guideline on place names says (my undercores): "In general, when deciding to disambiguate a place name, those settlements ranked higher administratively (i.e. higher up the following table) are primary topic over those ranked lower, unless sourcing exists to establish significant notability of a lower-ranked division." That is, exceptions to naming conventions are allowed, but the proposal may not even require an exception since Lhasa Chengguan District, or plain Lhasa, is far more widely discussed in English-language sources than Lhasa prefecture-level city.

I have no idea why this ANI was started. The Requested Move discussion is the place to identify concerns. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

With these qualifications/concessions, most of my concerns have been alleviated. But it certainly sounded like a threat to unilaterally implement to me, although it's possible that I read too much into the statement. In any case, if there is an agreement that one article is to deal with the prefectural-level city and one article is to deal with the area as defined by Chengguan District, then I think we actually have a consensus (or at least are close to a consensus). The naming issue, as you noted and as I agree (in fact, I argued it at the beginning), can be and should be dealt with more appropriately in a move request. It sounds like your position has substantially shifted toward a conciliatory position (and I do think it has shifted during this particular ANI discussion), and that is something I hope I can reciprocate properly. As I see it, we may have coalesced into two potential positions which editors can decide together as a group which they favor:

1. Lhasa (prefecture-level) and Chengguan District, Lhasa (district-level) (you have Lhasa Chengguan District, which I think is awkward and, again, is unnecessarily inconsistent with current naming convention of <district name, prefecture-level city name> (or, in the case where the district name is unique, simply <district name> - although in this case Chengguan District is not unique because Lanzhou also has one (Chengguan District, Lanzhou)), but which can be settled later). (Which, effectively, is the current situation.)
2. Lhasa (prefecture-level city) and Lhasa (district-level, understood to be defined as Chengguan District).

Whatever is the consensus, I can live with. If that were the case for you as well, then I think that the ANI has served its purpose, because there would no longer be substantial risks of original research or lack of verifiability given the definable borders, which were my main concerns - that we don't end up with a "small city" article with ill-defined and originally-researched borders. (The naming issue, as I've noted from the very beginning, can be deviated from for good reasons so as long as there is consensus to do so.) So as long as we don't effectively end up with a threat of having 273 naming schemes for prefecture-level cities, I can live with a second exception, I think. (The first being Jilin City, which is a necessary one.)

I will also say that the approach that the article you cited (Interpreting Urbanization in Tibet) is intriguing. However, the article admitted its own limitations as far as the available data is concerned, and its own assumptions of what constitutes "urbanization," while innovative, creates other problems. (When applied to, for example, San Jose, California, it would tend to swallow up most of the rest of Santa Clara County and leaving out parts of San Jose itself, which I think nobody would consider a proper definition of what San Jose is.) But if we actually have an agreement that one article is the prefecture-level city and one article is the district, then such concerns no longer exist. --Nlu (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: Thanks for that. Let's close this. I still have to write the damned thing, am soured on the subject and am bogged down trying to clean up the sub-articles. The prefecture-level one should just be a summary. Did you know that Drigung Monastery is high in the Himalayan mountains? Rubbish. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'll consent to that. Anybody else have any other thoughts? (I shouldn't close this; someone else should.) (Incidentally, though, whether Drigung is in the Himalayas depends on how you define "Himalayas" (which - I'm tempted to say - may be analogous to the issue that brought us here in the first place). (The "strip" on the map in the Himalayas article would appear to include it.) --Nlu (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Let me just add an additional thought for later discussions: one potential definition which I opine (again, not that it would be necessarily agreed with by anyone else) could be potentially proper would be simply the six urban subdistricts (jiedao), excluding the four rural townships, of Chengguan District. That would also be a definitive, verifiable boundary. But that, again, is discussion for later. --Nlu (talk) 23:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Nlu: I closed it. On the Himalayas, see Lhasa terrane, one of the sub-articles. The Himalayas stop at the Indus-Yarlung suture zone. North of that are the Nyainqêntanglha Mountains. Excluding the rural townships smacks of original research. The administrative area includes some rural areas, which is normal. The text can cover that. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Kristina451

(Opened with section title "Kristina451: Lying to functionaries, now lying to administrators"; title changed to "Kristina451 background" by doncram; title changed to "Kristina wikipedia stalker" by PortugueseManofPeace

Original section title duplicated another section on this page, also changed by doncram.

Per wp:TALKNEW, headings should not be used to attack other users, so header of form (Username)-(Negative behavior/Negative adjective) should not be allowed, imho. --doncram 07:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC) )

Kristina451 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) filed a false claim of sockpuppeting against me on this noticeboard to harass me. She claims that she is genuinely interested in editing articles after I had exposed her WP:COI.

I did a further search into Kristina451's background. It appears that during the last WP:COIN investigation into Kristina451, she claimed to the administrators that she was genuinely interested in editing the IEX article and that her account name was not created to harass Sophie.grothendieck. This turned out to be a huge lie:

- It appears that the functionaries must have found evidence of harassment and forced Kristina451 to change his/her account name. They did not ban him/her just in case he/she was genuinely interested in editing rather than harassing Sophie.grothendieck. However, after the name change, he/she clearly lost interest in editing the article because he/she lost purpose of harassing Sophie.grothendieck and immediately stopped editing. This seems to be a violation of the good faith that the functionaries have shown Kristina451 and displays that his/her intention was to harass people rather than to edit articles.

- Kristina451 waited a long time for the functionaries' attention on him/her to die down before coming back. When she returned, her first edit Sophie.grothendieck was to file this probably false report on the administrator's noticeboard to harass Sophie.grothendieck again and she went straight back to editing articles of which she had previously been accused of a WP:COI.

I believe that Kristina451 is just repeating his/her pattern here and trying to harass David Adam Kess and myself instead and he/she is repeating her lie that she wants to go back to editing articles. I recommend a block on Kristina451's account.

PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 00:05, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• This is what happens if obvious socks go unchecked for days. Kristina451 (talk) 01:28, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• In the future please notify the person who you are taking to ANI, thanks! - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

*Sorry about that, Knowledgekid87! I've added his/her username! PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 01:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It doesn't get any more duckish than this: - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87, now as you are investigating this, I also wanted to mention that Calboarder24, Shazam puta and Kristina451 are the same person. Kristina451 appears to have created the Shazam puta account to fabricate the claim against me and Kristina451's recent edits on an obscure wall and the converging timelines of their account histories seem to associate her with Calboarder24. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 01:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• LOL - David Adam Kess gets blocked; days later an IP starts editing the same articles and gets blocked for sock-block evasion; days later PortugueseManofPeace starts editing the same articles. Collectively, we Misplaced Pages editors might not be so bright. But we're not that stupid. Quack! St★lwart 08:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

MelissaHebert is another interesting one. And by interesting, of course, I mean "suspicious". St★lwart 08:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• The puppet master tried to blame the socks on David Adam Kess who I still think is not involved. Looking at the sock's comments and behaviour, the sock master obviously is 'Sophie.grothendieck', the first named account of a person involved in the high-frequency trading (HFT) hedge fund called Domeyard . This easily explains all the HFT related POV pushing. In any case, it is time to block the obvious socks. Kristina451 (talk) 12:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Your conspiracy theory gets fresher by the day! You invented a Shazam puta and now you invented a Dome Yard on your talk page, you aren't very creative with names aren't you? Who are you going to associate me with next? There is no HFT point of view in Akafeatfuasty's or mine if you actually bothered reading my edits and truth-check.

Nanex critcizes vocal users of high-frequency trading

Nanex critcizes vocal users of high-frequency trading and dark liquidity

HFT firms make up the low margins with incredible high volumes of tradings,

HFT firms make up the low margins with incredibly high volumes of trades,

This actually shows that you're mass undoing the revisions without any discretion, which shows that you are the one with an WP:COI here, which is what Akafeatfuasty alleged in the first place on #wikipedia-en-help and that's why I was helping her! You're just throwing up dust in the air with this conspiracy theory to get all of us banned when you are the real issue. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 14:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/4583.html

You just stalk everyone else who edits your beloved articles, which is what others have discovered before me. What is your problem? PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

As usual, false claims made up on the spot. What you purport to be in the HFT article (your first link) was never there. And nobody undid that minor prose improvement in the second link. I have no idea why this endless sock trolling and disruption is supposed to continue. Kristina451 (talk) 17:26, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Good grief, the quacking is so loud my ears hurt. Admins can we please get a hyper-obvious duck-block for PortugueseManofPeace and MelissaHebert please. Really, any admin with 10 seconds free time would do. St★lwart 23:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I give up, this is a sad ending. You can let Kristina451 vandalize your articles. But if you can afford me some of your patience, I can walk you through this on the phone. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 04:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You can put me on a conference call with the three different owners of those accounts? Or are they all (in fact) one-in-the-same? You do realise that no matter what content dispute you have with Kristina, socking to make a point or continue your campaign against her will be seen as far worse? St★lwart 07:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You're right, I apologize if our actions were disruptive. MelissaHebert and I thought it was fair game to edit separate articles as 2 separate persons.

We know David, he's a genuine guy and a good editor. Kristina451 stalked him to no ends just because he picked the wrong articles to edit. She's out of her mind and was willing to spend more time making life difficult for David than David had time to properly reference and defend his edits.

I honestly have no idea who are 198.0.163.1 and Shazam puta though, goes to show the extreme ends Kristina451 would go to have her way in manipulating control of those articles.

We just wanted to give David and those articles a chance at a fair editorial process.

I accept that it is a fair decision if the admins block us, but please tell us what is an acceptable protocol to stopping Kristina451 from undoing edits without discretion. We followed Nagle's advice on WP:COIN and tried putting back the factual content but Kristina451 immediately reported them on this noticeboard to disrupt our edits, even though there is nothing wrong with the content of our edits. She is dead set on preventing anyone else from editing those articles.

Again, I'm sorry, but please realize that we are the victims here. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 08:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

No need to bold everything you write. What you have to say isn't any more important than anything else prior. For the last time, you're going about this entirely the wrong way. Dishonestly using multiple accounts to make a point or "win" an argument (whether under the control of on person - WP:SOCK - or multiple people - WP:MEAT) is one of the most problematic things you can do here. It's the sort of thing that results in long blocks and site-bans. It's really pretty moronic (and that's putting it nicely). Turning around and claiming to be the victim a few paragraphs after admitting to breaking on of WP's most seriously-taken rules won't get you anywhere. You just don't seem to get it. St★lwart 04:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you, two wrongs don't make one right. We agreed to stop. I want to go back to regular editing and will avoid arguing with Kristina. Please close my report and hers if this is a satisfactory result for admins and you. Shazam puta and 198.0.163.1 seem to be her accounts though, if you continue hearing from her account, please investigate her not us. At least I can be honest and own up to my mistakes. She can use them to stalk me like she stalked David if she wants. I hope she eventually gets bored of vandalizing those articles and stalking. PortugueseManofPeace (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Sexually provocative images on user pages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Abandoned account user page full of porn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Kingstonjr Account appears abandoned . The user last edited in 2012. What is the policy regarding this? Can we just delete the porn? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.8.170 (talk) 10:42, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I've tagged it for speedy deletion. I assume the user has returned to Pornopedia or wherever he came from. APK whisper in my ear 11:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

•  Done — Ched :  ?  11:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Here is a post User:Kingstonjr made to an editor banned by Jimbo back in 2006: Yeah you are very beautiful! Could you email me some too? hornyhare@.**.** (Redacted email). I am pretty sure that is not what Misplaced Pages is for. The below accounts are all coping each other's pictures with BDSM and nude spreading and editing each other. They may be sock accounts but I am unsure. Most of the Users have not edited in years however 1 revert on their user page brings back all the porn or whatever you want to call them pics. 172.56.8.170 (talk) 14:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

An Abandoned USER PAGE Full of Sexually provocative Images

User:Joe1234 is a mirror of the one above and even mentions it, although another editor removed some of the images in 2006 there is still plenty of porn jpg files listed. The editor last edited in 2006. 172.56.8.170 (talk) 13:00, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I would hardly call that "Full of porn" (nothing like the one above) but, to each their own. Mlpearc (open channel) 13:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

 Not done — Ched :  ?  13:15, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't get to see the other user page, but unless the page was only an image gallery, only the images should have been removed while leaving the rest of the page. Also, I wouldn't call the images on this user page porn. Yes, many of them contain nudity, however, nudity is not the same as porn. —Farix (t | c) 13:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Another editor removed most of the pics. All it takes is one revert and they are there. I will not argue semantics about porn but BDSM pics are there. There are several accounts linked to above KingstonJR and even a page that directs to accounts with porn pics and to users self identified as teenage females. There was crap going on back in 2006. 172.56.8.170 (talk) 14:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any real "porn" there. But if you think some of the images need to be restricted to certain articles, there is a process to go through. (I don't know the details, though.) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) They would need to be added to MediaWiki:Bad image list. The process is outlined on the talk page. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The images in question are pretty tame, but the user could try it if he's of a mind to. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:47, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree, I was just putting the link there to be helpful. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Rogereeny. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• Delete Why are we wasting time defending this space? Lightbreather (talk) 17:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm guessing it has something to do with principle, slippery slope, resistance to Misplaced Pages activism, and other such wastes of time. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files,
    • Misplaced Pages is not a blog, Web hosting service, social networking service, or memorial site, AND...
    • Misplaced Pages is not censored - is about ARTICLES. Don't you guys have articles to work on? I do. Lightbreather (talk) 18:00, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:Userpages states:There is broad consensus that you should not have any image in your userspace that would bring the project into disrepute and you may be asked to remove such images. Content clearly intended as sexually provocative (images and in some cases text) or to cause distress and shock that appears to have little or no project benefit or using Misplaced Pages only as a web host or personal pages or for advocacy, may be removed by any user (or deleted), subject to appeal at deletion review. Context should be taken into account. Simple personal disclosures of a non-provocative nature on sexual matters (such as LGBT userboxes and relationship status) are unaffected. The matter is already settled. 172.56.8.170 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Read the whole paragraph. One of the last sentences is that "Context should be taken into account." The list of images is essentially just a list of images that might be subject to censorship on other sites. Now, whether that hits the "clearly intended as sexually provocative" element is, I think, a matter that should be discussed. It strikes me that the user page is no worse than certain individual categories over at Commons. Most of the subcategories of Commons:Category:Nudity, for instance. Admittedly, Commons is another project, but that we're connected with it suggests to me that those category pages themselves wouldn't "bring the project into disrepute". Of course, userspace is a bit different, and the context includes the statement that Misplaced Pages is not censored followed by a bunch of explicit images. Perhaps there's an intent to "shock", but if so, it's a very mild shock. My point, in short, is that there are a lot of factual determinations that the wording of the user page policy tees up. It's not as black and white as suggested above. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 15:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is there isn't a "image" on that page, they're all links (and most are pictures of everyday celebrities/models). Mlpearc (open channel) 15:12, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Go down to the user's page history a little ways, just before someone chopped all the images. It's worth noting that among the nude stuff there were conventional pictures of random things of beauty in nature, which is possibly the point the user was trying to make - nine years ago. And as you say, the links (the ones that aren't red) in the current userpage are to various starlets, which are generally no worse than PG-rated. The OP here might be on a mission of some kind, but he's barking up the wrong tree. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

And I see the OP has posted this ANI on the page of user Hashbrowns, on the same theory - that someone could revert the reversion and re-post the "porn". The OP is a busybody who should be sent packing. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Bugs see WP:NPA, please use better manners or take a break.

NOTE Read post carefully. The 3rd to last revision of the user page is full of sexually provocative images BDSM and spreading. Anyone can restore them. The user did not take them down. Another editor did. The user has not edited in since 2006. The violating pics should be removed so they cannot be restored. It would make since to delete the user page as it had little value. Of course someone could remove the edits that put the offending material in there as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.8.170 (talk) 15:46, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

The images are no longer on the user page. That is all that matters. These editors are no longer active on Misplaced Pages and there is no reason to delete their userpages. Just because the image galleries can be restored is not a reason to delete the pages wholesale. —Farix (t | c) 15:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

To someone on a censorship mission, it IS a reason to delete. If the user is serious and not trolling, he needs to follow user G S Palmer's link and do things the right way. And while there, he'll see how tame this stuff is compared to the "bad" images. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:57, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It is clear that BDSM and spreading is sexually provocative, what is at commons is irrelevant and faulty logic. We are talking about user page contents not commons. 172.56.8.170 (talk) 15:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Do YOU find them provocative? And how did they got on your radar in the first place? Were you LOOKING FOR provocative? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:01, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The images were removed from the user pages years ago, so they are no longer an issue. Why are you even going back through ancient user page histories in the first place? —Farix (t | c) 16:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It is clear that BDSM and spreading is sexually provocative. Says who? We are talking about user page contents not commons. Read my entire post. To elucidate: The rule of the userpage policy is to avoid bringing the project into disrepute. If you have a situation where the project is not at risk of being brought into disrepute (e.g., by partially mirroring pages found on Commons, which is a Foundation project with close ties to Misplaced Pages) it really doesn't matter that the content might be found by some to be sexually provocative.
Honestly, a better understanding of the userpage policy would be to serve as a gap-filler for where images aren't yet put on the bad images list (or might not clearly qualify), or haven't yet been deleted (Commons deletion can take awhile), or where there's a creative product on the userpage that's provocative (e.g., placing an image of a living person next to an image of a man ejaculating for effect), or where there's erotic fiction on a userpage.
In short, I haven't seen any argument that particular images on that userpage bring the project into disrepute, nor have I seen any particular explanation why the collection of such images in this specific case brings the project into disrepute. Let me leave you with this question: Would we say a prolific uploader of encyclopedic images of nudity or sexuality couldn't display a list of works uploaded on their userpage? Editors get broad latitude with their userpages for good reason. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 18:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The OP is now trolling user Lightbreather, where the closest thing I see to a "provocative" image is the famous WWII image of "Rosie the Riveter". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like the OP is canvassing selected editors, presumably to help boost the argument. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

To hell with the "canvassing" guideline. If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, WP:IGNORE it. The material in question does NOTHING to improve the encyclopedia, but removing it does. There are plenty of other places for editors who like that kind of stuff to go and find it. Lightbreather (talk) 17:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

MfD User:Joe1234

Miscellany for Deletion: User:Joe1234. Lightbreather (talk) 18:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

USER Page contains Images in Violation of WP:Userpages

MfD Notice

Notice of MfD for User:Jbc01. Lightbreather (talk) 18:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

IP violating WP:CANVASS and the spirit of WP:SPA

User:172.56.8.170 seems to be on some sort of ...crusade... for a lack of a better term. Serous question, are we ok with this? CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

No, we are not OK. They should move to WP:MFD. What is going on here is out of process and besides a grand waste of time.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done MfDs opened. Lightbreather (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment on the content not the contributor would seem to apply here. Is there any benefit to the encyclopedia in maintaining these user pages?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:09, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

ANI is pretty much the one place commenting on the contributor is ok, but thank you for randomly quoting a saying because it sounded rightish. CombatWombat42 (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Your welcome. Any chance you could address the content issue here regarding any potential benefit to WP in maintaining these user pages? Why hassle an IP editor if they are actually being productive? --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

My welcome what?2601:1:9200:78A:C9BE:B354:7574:73FD (talk) 02:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The IP should get an award. He/She acted to improve the encyclopedia. Lightbreather (talk) 18:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Def. getting the whiff of socks around here from this alone. Lugnuts 18:48, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The appropriate award will be a lengthy block. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm very curious about who the IP is. Is it a signed-out editor? GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Who was it that was so obsessed with the Wikipe-tan cartoon character a few years ago? Whoever it was, that's one possible candidate. And from time to time on ANI, we get users screaming "think of the children" and such as that. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Nikkimaria is the one with the Wikipe-tan obsession, and still attempts to remove images from the page every now and then. But I seriously doubt that she has any connection with this IP. —Farix (t | c) 20:52, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Given that the one page they tried to get deleted is now fixed to reasonable expectations, I suggest we just wrap this up and be done with it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It must be snowing in Phoenix BB and I agree on a subject....for everyone else see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Lightbreather Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A blind squirrel still finds an acorn sometimes. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

IP has been blocked by Mike V for persistent editing while logged out, block evasion, vandalism, and password reset abuse. —Farix (t | c) 22:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz admin with WP:OWN issues.

I am a contributor to many African themed articles. I have no record of disruptive behavior (one or two edit wars, no blocks) only rock solid contributions across many African themed pages. Esp where LEADS are concerned. I have come across user Malik Shabazz for years and rarely clashed] (but if we do guess who is always right?). Yet he tell me to GO AWAY] from Malcolm X and when you look at the edit I made it is very hard to understand what could possibly provoke such an aggressive reaction. He claims I did not bring sources. am.. the rationale for my edits are related to WP:WEIGHT and WP:LEAD how do you bring a RS for lead judgements? He then continues to threaten me with AN/I well I got here first. Please note, his TALK page contribution to the issue is sparse, except to tell me about Disruptive behavior per the criteria of disruptive behavior I think we all can see my edits do not meet that criteria. Not sure why he fails to WP:AGV and insults people as if I am a vandal to be pushed away. My issues on the Talk have been washed out by his bullying tactics. The habit of revert is not new to this admin, nor are his useless childish threats (i been here for yonks I know the rules). He also pretends my view is only mine, when on the very talk page others agree with my issue. In a nutshell I do not need this tone, discuss the article and please do not think you own an article and can revert because you have an admin title and spend 24hrs on Misplaced Pages. Have some Wiki manners. Last issue, I am a specialist editor, I do not deal with AN/I or these technical things, I think this is my first one so forgive any errors, I am just hear to balance this place out. --Inayity (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Not to appear bitey or anything here, but it's common courtesy/a requirement (as indicated by the big red letters up top and the orange box you get when you open a thread) to notify the other party when you bring an ANI against them. It's rather rude not to. Thankfully, someone else has already done this. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 6 Adar 5775 19:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that Inayity read WP:OAS, including the guidance on Featured articles (of which Malcolm X is one). I've invited him several times to discuss the article, and to cite reliable sources, but instead he has linked to a thousand-page e-book and referred to "a quick Google search and reading Black forums", and repeatedly made grammatically atrocious edits to the article.

I also recommend that he read WP:LEAD, which says "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." Not quick Google searches or reading Black forums. Reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:16, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• As someone who spent a great deal of time on that article for about a year (though not recently) I've reviewed the talkpage discussion and article history. From where I stand M.S., and the other regulars there e.g. Glennconti and Rumiton, have shown remarkable restraint in the face of sustained TLDR I-can't-hear-you-but-I'm-certain. EEng (talk) 00:40, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Malik didn't say "go away"--he said "bring sources or go away". Big difference. And I agree with EEng. Drmies (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• I have done a bit of editing at the Malcolm X talk page, but enough to evaluate Malik Shabazz's contributions. He is a rock solid defender of that article, unfailingly polite and well-informed, and always relying on policies and guidelines. He is an all-around productive editor and administrator. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:47, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Dualthreat13

I suspect no foul play here, but in the interest of covering all bases I am soliciting a second opinion on this matter. I was unexpectedly contacted by Dualthreat13 (talk · contribs) concerning the deletion of the page AK Ikwuakor, which was deleted due on G5 (creation by blocked/banned user) grounds. The two bases to be covered here stem from the nature of the account and the wording of the message on my talk page; in the case of the former: despite having been created in the fall of 2014 the Dualthreat13 account has only a few edits and they all seem to be towards creating the AK Ikwuakor article here, which is not necessarily a bad thing on and of itself since articles here can and do get second chances based on the change of available information for the subject matter. The talk page post though seems suspicious to me because in wording the request the user wrote, and I quote, "I am sure you are quite busy, but I received this message from you and would like to restore this page." followed by the deletion log summary. It could be the choice of words, but a check of the history shows that I never left any message on the talk page until now. I've chalked it all up to a new user still trying to learn the ropes, but since the article was deleted on G5 grounds I wanted a second opinion as to whether or not this could be a sock account of Johngalea24 (talk · contribs). TomStar81 (Talk) 03:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

There was no foul play here. The page of AK Ikwuakor was created by another user several months ago. The page had inline citation issues, so I requested assistance from a random user on Fiverr. I contacted Fiverr because the documentation to fix the inline citations was confusing. I am still learning the ropes of Misplaced Pages, and was caught off guard when the page was being removed, as well as created by a banned user. A banned user of which who was not the original editor of the page. I contacted the user on Fiverr and here is our correspondence:

momo115

Hi, I am your wiki page editor, Can you show me your satisfaction by tipping me here : http://fiverr.com/momo115/thank-you-for-your-tip ? Thanks a lot !

  08:12   January 28, 2015

dualthreat

Hey Momo115!

Can I get a refund? What is this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/AK_Ikwuakor

13:15 February 17, 2015

dualthreat

Get back to me ASAP. Really? 13:15 February 17, 2015

momo115

Hi dear, Sorry but no refund is allowed after 10 days according to Fiverr guidelines, and you are already gaining wiki visibility since almost one month ago. However, the notice is not harmful, just order $5 and I'll contact other wiki admins.

  13:18   February 17, 2015

dualthreat

What do you mean it's not harmful? You created something that is going to get removed because partly you are a banned user. You deleted edits by previous contributors which is causing issues now. A bit false advertising! What can we do about this?

A message from you:

momo115

You have 99,99% of approval chances 13:32 February 17, 2015 momo115

Your wiki page is still up and nothing tells it will be removed. You can be sure I deleted nothing but you probably hired people to modify the page. If it's advertising then it's from your text which I simply past. You can order $5 if you want me to contact other wiki admins.

  13:34   February 17, 2015

dualthreat

Ok, so if I give you $5 then it will be fixed? Also, what do I do with the banned user part? 13:54 February 17, 2015 momo115

It's not guaranteed that it will be fixed but be sure I'll do my efforts with other wiki admins. What do you mean by banned user ?

  14:52   February 17, 2015

dualthreat

This is what the wiki says regarding your profile:

This article may meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion as a page created by a banned or blocked user (Johngalea24 – SPI confirmed suspected) in violation of his or her ban or block, with no substantial edits by others. See CSD G5. 21:33 February 17, 2015

momo115

Not true. The proof is that I am still serving buyers of this gig

  00:53   February 18, 2015

dualthreat

Momo!

I just got this message:

This page has been deleted. The deletion and move log for the page are provided below for reference.

06:42, 19 February 2015 TomStar81 (talk | contribs) deleted page AK Ikwuakor (G5: Creation by a banned or blocked user (Johngalea24) in violation of ban or block)

Can you please repair this please?

15:00 February 25, 2015

momo115

Hi and welcome, sorry to hear this but who is John Galea and why did you hire people to modify your page ?

  15:11   February 25, 2015

dualthreat

Hello Momo115,

That is you. You are the only person I hired to modify my page. I never modified the document or hired anyone else. I just asked you to fix the broken links. You modified the whole page and deleted previous contributors. Why would I have someone modify my page when it was already approved. Can you please fix it? Or do you have the documentation you originally submitted? This is quite stressful!

15:24 February 25, 2015

dualthreat

You told me not to worry! I never hired anyone else besides you. 15:25 February 25, 2015

momo115

Hi, Sorry but I am not John Galea and it's suspicious to me. I trust and understand you but fixing it would require waiting some months as creating the page immediately after it's deletion is called spam in wiki guidelines. Meanwhile you can work on improving the documentation. Again, I trust you but someone modified your page after me.

  15:28   February 25, 2015

dualthreat

What is your Misplaced Pages name? 15:46 February 25, 2015

momo115

How it's useful for you to know it ?

  15:51   February 25, 2015

TomStar81 I hope you understand that there was no foul play on my end. The reason for the word "I" in the random contact was because I was one of the original contributors of the page. No foul play.

Dualthreat13 (talk) 03:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)dualthreat13

Administrator etiquette in issuing blocks

I was recently given a one-month block for trying to avoid an existing block. I appealed that block, which was reviewed by User:JamesBWatson. In responding to me, James made the decision to extend the block by an additional two weeks. Now that my block has been lifted, I would like to have his handling of this situation reviewed as I feel that he did not carry out his responsibilities as an administrator properly to the point where I do not feel confident that he could reasonably carry out those responsibilities in an impartial way in the future. My complaint centres on four key items:

1) First, my blocking history had previously been handled by two or three other administrators. The overwhelming message from them was that the blocks should be considered as a kind of behaviour correction. However, JamesBWatson's message on my talk page made it clear that he felt it likely that I would reoffend, and hence extended my block. I feel that this directly contradicts the message sent by the other administrators, and that by extending the block, he undermined them.

2) Although the blocking policy allows administrators to issue blocks based on an existing block history, it also states that this should be used for reviewing blocks for similar offences. My block history has centred on edit-warring, and I had never been accused of attempting to subvert a ban before. I fail to see how a history of edit-warring suggests a future of trying to subvert blocks, and so I feel that extending a block for subverting a ban based on blocks for edit-warring is both unjustified and a rather cynical approach to take.

3) In reviewing my appeal, JamesBWatson refused to divulge any details of why he chose to extend the block on the grounds that doing so would enable me to subvert blocks in the future. And while I appreciate the rationale, his attitude was quite rude and uncivilised, and so I was left with the distinct impression that I had my block extended because I had been blocked in the past. Similarly, I feel that any concerns that I have in the future - be they legitimate or not - will not be addressed fairly because of my block history, which is at odds with the conduct of other administrators.

4) At the time of having my block extended, no infractions had been committed. The one-month block for trying to subvert an existing block had already come into effect, and no further infractions had been committed. I have found nothing in the blocking policy that gives administrators the power to issue blocks when no infraction has been committed. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

PM has a habit of getting into trouble and then making matters worse. This post is yet one more example of that behavior. PM's block log speaks for itself. I am unfortunately intimately familiar with PM and his misconduct. As you can see, the first three blocks were mine. In addition after the block by James, I revoked talk page access. I can say categorically that my blocks were not for "behavior correction" as such. As with the majority of blocks, they are a combination of a misconduct sanction and to prevent further disruption with an emphasis on the latter. The blocks, which were all for edit warring, escalated as is normal in such circumstances.

PM's points about block evasion reflect his misunderstanding of policy and practice. It is common for blocks for whatever conduct to be extended based on block evasion.

James's comments were not at all rude. They were blunt. He was confronted with what he perceived to be blatant dishonesty on PM's part, and he said so. It should be noted that James wasn't the first admin to block PM for block evasion. That would be HJ Mitchell, who also pulled no punches when discussing the evasion with PM.

This topic is at best disruptive.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

"This topic is at best disruptive."

I disagree with you there. It certainly isn't intended to be, and trying to represent it as such speaks to the attitude that I felt I got from JamesBWatson—namely, I feel that you think that my block history means that my intention is to disrupt. How would you respond if this issue was raised by an editor without a blocking history? All I want from this is the confidence that administrators will handle any case that I am involved in based on the merits of the case itself. Because right now, I get the distinct impression that some administrators will simply assume that I am responsible for disruption even if I am not because of my history. Now, I am guessing that your response to this will be something along the lines of "you must think Misplaced Pages administrators are pretty stupid" or some such, but that's why I came here to ANI—because an administrator extended my block on the assumption that I would reoffend when no infraction had been committed to warrant a block. There is no provision within the blocking policy that says that this is an acceptable practice. So if it's reasonable for an administrator to assume that an editor will reoffend based on a block history for an unrelated offence, then how is it unreasonable for an editor to question whether an administrator will exercise good judgement in future based on an experience where they believe that administrator acted poorly? I appreciate that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, but surely you recognise that everyday editors need to have confidence that the administrators will be able to judge situations appropriately. That's why I opened this discussion thread—so that I can have confidence in the administrators. What did you think I wanted? To cause disruption? If so, I picked a pretty poor platform for it. To see JamesBWatson stripped of his administration powers? I'm not nearly vain enough to think that I could do it. Or did I create it so that I can have a constructive conversation about the issue and better apply the lessons that you said you wanted to teach me? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

PM has a habit of getting into trouble and then making matters worse -- it's a six year 20K edit account that was never blocked prior to Oct 2014 -- are there diffs to support that accusation?? NE Ent 15:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

To reply briefly to each of the numbered points Prisonermonkeys posts:

1. Prisonermonkeys says that I "directly the message sent by the other administrators, and that by extending the block, undermined them." Firstly, I don't see where I contradicted anything that any other administrator had said. Secondly, if I did, why is that an offence? Am I not allowed to disagree with other administrators?
2. The second point is absurd. Of course if an editor who has a history of being blocked for edit warring proceeds to evade blocks, he or she can have further blocks imposed for block evasion, in addition to the blocks for edit warring. However, that is not even an accurate description of what happened: Prisonermonkeys tries to give the impression that until I extended the block, his/her blocks had been entirely for edit-warring, not for block-evasion (which is evidently what he/she means by "attempting to subvert a ban"). However, the block which I extended was for block evasion. (The block was imposed by HJ Mitchell at 19:11, 11 January 2015, and the block log entry says "Block evasion: has been evading the block while logged out continuously, almost since the block was made".) Also, the wording used by Bbb23 and PhilKnight in declining unblock requests for HJ Mitchell's block make it clear that they both believed that Prisonermonkeys had been evading the block, and declined the unblock requests for that reason.
3. "I was left with the distinct impression that I had my block extended because I had been blocked in the past" ... Well, in informing him/her of my decision, I stated that it was because I believed he/she was being dishonest about a block for block-evasion. If he/she believes I was lying, and that I didn't really think that, but actually extended the block simply because he/she had been blocked before, what can I say? I have re-read every word I wrote on Prisonermonkeys's taslk page, and I can't see anything I said which seems to me to indicate that I really extended the block for any reason other than that which I stated. Prisonermonkeys also says that what I did was "at odds with the conduct of other administrators", but my block extension was appealed, and supported by another administrator.
4. "At the time of having my block extended, no infractions had been committed" ... In the context of the following sentences, this evidently means that no further offences had taken place since the block was imposed. However, that is not true: I made it explicit in my comment that the essential reason for extending the block was dishonesty about that block, which of course took place after the block was imposed. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately the WMF's insistence on no registration required, along with a strong privacy policy, means that we will always have a) socks, and b) the possibility of false positives. Per WP:NOJUSTICE it's appropriate admins use best judgment or "preponderance of the evidence." I'm not seeing anything in JamesBWatson et. al. behavior that warrants further action or review. NE Ent 15:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I took a look at the available evidence, and my conclusion is that it is extremely implausible that someone else would start using a static IP that Prisonermonkeys claims is associated with a public terminal, edit Misplaced Pages without logging in, and edit almost exclusively in the area of motor racing all during the time Prisonermonkeys was blocked. Extremely implausible. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Let's just say that I can account for my whereabouts on that day, but choose not to for personal reasons. Furthermore, that block is not what I am disputing. I am disputing the two-week extension that I was given when I had not done anything to warrant it. The four-week block was intended to address it, and address it it did. I believe that JamesBWatson should not have issued that extension the way he did. As has been acknowledged, there was the potential for a false positive—after all, the terminal in question is one that I had had nothing to do with for eighteen months. And while I acknowledge that it is a massive coincidence that those edits were made, and while I cannot explain them satisfactorily, I do know that that terminal is a computer in a public library, and I do know that I was nearly 500km away from it on the day in question. I believe that it was a false positive, and that there was no case for extending the block, except for the assumption that because I had been blocked in the past, I must be guilty of something. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Let's just say that we've heard it all before. Now might be a good time to familiarise yourself with the first law of holes. Guy (Help!) 22:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I only gave up trying to prove that I had nothing to do with the edits because I knew that I couldn't prove it to everyone's satisfaction. But I didn't create this discussion to talk about that. I created this discussion to ask why an administrator is allowed to apply blocks outside the scope of the blocking policy. Like I said, I hadn't committed any blockable offence when I got the extension, and I could find nothing in the blocking policy to support JamesBWatson's actions. Am I simply missing something here? If so, please direct me to the policy that says an administrator is free to assume that an editor will make disruptive edits in the future when they do not have an extensive history of making those edits. To draw an analogy, articles do not get protected pre-emptively, so why do editors get blocked pre-emptively? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I shall make just one more attempt to explain a point which I thought I had explained to you before, and then I will leave this pointless waste of time. Firstly, I did not "assume that an editor will make disruptive edits in the future when they do not have an extensive history of making those edits". The block extension was because of things you had already done. Secondly, by policy blocks are required to be preventive, not punitive, which means that every block is required by policy to be made in the anticipation that there may be more of the same problem that has already happened: to block for any reason other than anticipation of possible future disruption would be contrary to policy. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• I suggest you drop this, PM. I know you feel aggrieved, but at the end of the day the best thing would be to move on. I'm not sure I would have extended the block a second time unless there was continued evasion, but James was within the bounds of admin discretion. You'd be best off getting back to working on articles and not getting into any more edit wars. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Here's a thought: How about you stop the recurring behavior that seems to get you blocked every other week. §FreeRangeFrog 17:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• 6 blocks in 5 years 11 months comes out to ~51.5 weeks per block. NE Ent 17:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

User:BM123

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to request a block on this user as he has vandalised a number of articles including Braniel‎ "(Richie McSorley takes up most of the space" and Linfield F.C. as well as creating a hoax page Bradley mcrobbie. Thanks Gbawden (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

He's been duly shown the door. Yunshui _水 12:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the fast response! Super service :) Gbawden (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

121.219.146.66

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

At regular intervals (at most every few days or so, sometimes multiple times in one day), some new IP pops up and starts a war against the word "Palestine", changing Palestine into Israel or into Palestinian territories and adding Israel to places not in Israel, with no explanation or a useless or rude explanation. The latest is 121.219.146.66. Every single edit is of that nature. I'm tempted to block it as a vandalism-only account, but I wonder if I'm too "involved" (I edit in this area). Can some other admin do it please? I'd also be interested in the opinions of other admins as to whether I could handle this myself. On the surface it's a "content dispute" but everyone familiar with the area, including this IP, knows full well that it isn't. Thanks. Zero 13:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked for a period of two weeks. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) And his edits have been undone. All is well in the world again. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 7 Adar 5775 14:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Question on course of action

Occasionally while doing RC patrolling I'll see something like this:

• (User creation log); 07:01 . . User account Kitpatricksymons123 (talk | contribs | block) was created by Kitpatricksymons (talk | contribs | block) ‎
• (User creation log); 07:50 . . User account Jenoptik Redakteur en (talk | contribs | block) was created by Jenoptik Redakteur (talk | contribs | block) and password was sent by email ‎

My question is how do I approach this? Should I AGF? Block on Sock grounds? Wait and see? Any help here would be appreciated. TomStar81 (Talk) 14:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

People are allowed to have alternative accounts (I've got one myself), so I'd be wary of jumping the gun. As long as they aren't being used abusively, alts can be perfectly legit. Yunshui _水 14:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Given the similarity of the names of these alternate accounts to the names of the master accounts, it's extremely unlikely that they'd be used for ulterior purposes. BMK (talk) 16:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

So AGF and the wait and see approach. Alright then, thanks for the clarification. TomStar81 (Talk) 01:47, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Request IBAN with User:Hell in a Bucket

I asked for a voluntary IBAN between Hell in a Bucket and myself in December on my talk page, and again in February on his talk page (after an ARCA request was closed without action after a lengthy discussion.)

After this latest post by him, I am asking here at ANI for an IBAN. Lightbreather (talk) 17:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Long block log for Hell in a Bucket – perhaps more than an IBAN is warranted here?... --IJBall (talk) 17:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, but you're shooting from the hip, which usually is not helpful, here or in the Wild West. Drmies (talk) 17:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

My last block was what 5 or so years ago? Not counting my self requested break..Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• waiting for statement from HiaB before I comment. — Ched :  ?  17:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Well, this is all very exciting, and it all follows from a few discussions on some user pages I was involved with. Without an iBan, voluntary or otherwise, one cannot expect another editor to not discuss one's contributions, and in this case I don't think HiaB was the only one to question a possible collusion between the IP and Lightbreather. I think it's incredibly unlikely that they are the same, or that there was collusion, but some editors thought there was a connection--ah, I see now that the SPI is closed with no action, and the conclusion is much like mine. Good.

  Now, I don't see so much disruption that an iBan should be warranted--I think both tend to take things too personal, and/or both play the man, not the ball. I must take issue with one of Lightbreather's comments in one of the threads she linked: "I observe the civility policy, so any "tone" in what I say is 99 times out of 100 in the mind of the reader" is a kind of pre-emptive "I'm right" qualifier, and I dislike that sort of thing. And the moment one complains on-wiki about the behavior of another editor, well, one can expect the other editor to respond. This tit for tat isn't helpful, of course, and without wanting to investigate who started what when, which is a useless exercise anyway, all we can ask for is that the editors take a deep breath before they click "Save". Drmies (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• User:Ched ] was retracted before this ani was even started. If u look at the thread you will notice her complaints I was not in the correct forum were rebutted I was in fact at a SPI started by Cirt and the stupid shit I refer to is canvassing forum shopping and socking/suspected meat puppetry. Look at the SPI and the resulting thread. Don't let yourself be manipulated. I'm not available for more substantial replies formanfew hours but happy to respond then. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Well. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall a few discussions about "IBAN", and it seems that a number of them involve(d) Lightbreather. If I'm correct, then that's not a good sign. Typically when one user has problems with multiple editors, at some point we need to consider that perhaps the issues stem from a central source. Perhaps it's the approach that Lightbreather takes that could use an overhaul here. — Ched :  ?  18:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Ched, I do not think you are mistaken. Drmies (talk) 18:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
    • The phrase used in the ARCA request noted above was "vexatious litigant". Salvio giuliano was the first to say it, IIRC, and it was aimed at Lightbreather. That she is trying again, and so soon after, would seem to reinforce that point. - Sitush (talk) 18:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
      • This sort of typifies what is going on generally. LB can be distinctly uncollaborative: she sets up fences (in this case because she has banned people from her talk page) and IBANs are another way to achieve the same environment, ie: one that brooks no criticism. - Sitush (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
        • Sitush, you regularly clash with Lightbreather, as on the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force and you are speaking about this as if you are unbiased. Liz 20:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
          • Lots of people regularly clash with Lightbreather. She is the common denominator in all of this. - Sitush (talk) 20:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Sitush, you seem to clash with GGTF a lot. I think the notion of dealing with "militant feminism" (see below) is actually the common denominator here. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• My 2 cents: LB appears to feel strongly about pornography, civility and sexism. Her opinions on these topics tends to be unpopular, and when you combine that with LB's apparent refusal to back away from an issue when faced with bullying, we have the current battleground situation. (I'm certainly not saying everyone who disagrees with LB is a bully but rather that it's an issue here). I'm also not saying that I agree with everything LB says or proposes, but regardless of how you feel about LB's stances on issues, there appears to be a number of user's fixating on LB and following her around to argue with her or insult her which seems counterproductive to the encyclopedia. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget "gun politics". I can speak from experience on that one... --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 03:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• • Or could it be that she is fixating on her POV? - Sitush (talk) 18:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Everyone tends to be fixated on their own POV. Honestly Sitush, I think it might help if you fixated less on Lightbreather's POV.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

the underhanded actions are hurting the ncylopedia that's why it is hard to ignore. She is destructive in her method. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it about time that these militant feminists were dealt with once and for all? Eric Corbett 18:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)′

Right. Misplaced Pages should be controlled only by militant masculists. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Eric I suggest you self-revert that comment of yours(and this one too if you like), it is a clear breach of your topic ban. Chillum 18:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, in another example of how shoddily the GGTF decision was phrased, one could argue that it isn't. Commenting on someone's political viewpoint is not technically commenting on gender disparity. After all, feminists are of both genders, to begin with. Depends on how "broadly" you're going to define "broadly", doesn't it? Black Kite (talk) 19:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Can somebody tell me: What is a "militant feminist"? Or, what have I done to be labeled one? If "feminist" means believing that women should have equal rights and opportunities, then yes, I'm a feminist. But "militant"? WTF? Lightbreather (talk) 20:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

We have an article about the subject. One of the defining factors of it is to be militantly anti-pornography. And to be fair I think this conversation paints you in that light. Not only did you question why it was good article but why it should even exist though it quite clearly is notable and is actually a very neutral, well sourced article. After the editor who put a ton of work into bringing it to GA status came along and politely explained their rationale you went on to state the article brings the encyclopedia into bad repute, going so far to say it "soils" it, with no mind to how disparaging that was to the editor in question. Capeo (talk) 23:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

We have an article called Radical feminism - which mentions Feminism and Second-wave feminism and Cultural feminism and Liberal feminism and Socialist feminism and Marxist feminism. And there's even Third-wave feminism and Fourth wave, too. But here's the thing: I couldn't tell you what the distinction is between most of those isms. As for me, as I said above, I believe women should have equal rights and opportunities. That's the extent of my feminism, and is probably the same as millions of other people. Do I like porn? No. But I understand it has its purpose and its place. And being appalled that Misplaced Pages has a "good article" about Fucking Machines makes me "militantly anti-porn"? There are at least a dozen people - all men as far as I can tell - who need to dial their rhetoric back in this discussion and others like it, lest ye be seen as militant men. Lightbreather (talk) 00:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

And I count myself amongst those millions as well. But rhetoric? Appalled, bad repute, and soiled are rhetoric. I'm just following a chain of events. All your contributions to porn related material here were to create or expand anti-porn articles. Which is fine. It's an area of the encyclopedia that needs expanding. I'm not faulting you for you POV on porn. I understand the arguments against porn and am sympathetic to many of them. I'm faulting you for such an entrenched POV on the subject that you rather callously dismissed another editors efforts to improve an article simply because it was a subject you find distasteful. This is similar behavior that you regularly call other people on. Thus I don't feel my characterization of your stance on porn as militant to be unjust. How else would you describe a stance that is so entrenched it caused you to completely forgo the civility and respect you ask from others? Capeo (talk) 00:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored, and as far as I can tell, the only thing that motivates being appalled that Misplaced Pages has a "good article" about Fucking Machines here is Lightbreather's explicitly stated dislike of porn. I would say that going to such lengths to complain about the existence of an article - one officially recognized by Misplaced Pages for the amount of work put in on it - qualifies as being "militant" about the subject matter, yes. Google gives me this definition for militant: combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause, and typically favoring extreme, violent, or confrontational methods. "Confrontational" certainly seems to apply here, given the repeated how the heck wording - and especially when it's presented as a matter for the GGTF. I just think a group that's supposedly working to help recruit and keep women editors ought to know that there's stuff like this out there - why? Why should female editors care any more about this than male editors do? What has it got to do with believ women should have equal rights and opportunities? The only reasoning I can fathom here is a projection of the anti-porn view onto female editors in general. 76.64.13.4 (talk) 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Was that machine, by any chance, invented by a young man from Racine? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'll concur with that. If the shoe fits. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. LB might want to look into consensus building. Like a lot of the feminist movement, LB exhibits all the finesse of a bull moose, and I suspect that's costing her the support of a ton of moderates of both genders. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hell in a Bucket , What method is that? Continuing to complain about bullying and insults long after most editors would give up complaining? I get that you don't agree with LB. Honestly, I don't agree with everything she says either, but the following her around to argue with her or insult her seems counterproductive. Eric Corbett regarding your comment Isn't it about time that these militant feminists were dealt with once and for all....thanks for highlighting the apparent reason behind all this bullying. Says it all really. This sort of bullying has a direct effect on GGTF, discouraging participation by intimidating potential members. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You're comment ignores the fact that radical feminism is a quite distinct form of feminism. It also ignores the fact that Eric works quite often and amiably with women both avowed feminists and not. It also implies that to participate in the GGTF one must clearly be a self professed feminist. As I pointed out on the GGTF page a couple days ago, according to a 2013 Pew poll, only a tiny minority of women respondents consider themselves feminist and over a third of women respondents considered the term negative. Now, if find that silly personally. I believe it shows that the basis of feminism has never been clearly elucidated to most people and the term has been used as a bludgeon in politics. I think that's clearly displayed by the fact that the vast majority of all respondents, of both genders, agreed that women should have full equality in all facets of life. That's the basis of feminism. Unfortunately the bulk of the baggage of the term came from the push back against radical feminism. Not completely unlike the pushback in many circles against militant atheism. One blames all the woes of the world on the patriarchy and the other on religion and, in my view (as an atheist myself) both lack the nuance needed to deal with reality. Long story short: implying self professed feminism is the bar to participate in the GGTF would mathematically discourage participation far more than any factor and Eric has stated, by word and action, that he fully endorses the equality of the sexes. You're not seeing what's actually discouraging participation there. Basically if you don't approach every topic there from an avowed feminist theory perspective you're often dismissed as not getting it. Capeo (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Capeo, I'm not commenting on the history of feminism, and I'm not actually aware that any GGTF members have self identified as feminist (radical, militant or otherwise). It's certainly not a requirement to participate there. My point was Eric's above comment suggests this ongoing battleground mentality against LB, GGTF etc seems to be part of a mindset among a particular group of editors to stomp out "militant feminism", which I find both disruptive and inaccurate. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Commenting on a public thread or an SPI is hardly problematic. In have abstained from her user page other then a missing SPI notification and then commented on a thread which she started when crying wolf again. I was the subject of that thread..read it interesting stuff when the real pic shows. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Commenting on A public thread, huh? One little ol' comment. ARCA made a motion to decline my request for an IBAN on February 9. I think I'll gather diffs of all the pages you've followed me to, or mentioned me (that I'm aware of), or alluded to me, or just pointed someone to something about me on since then. User talk pages: Plus ANI: Plus MfD: Plus SPI: Plus at GGTF: Lightbreather (talk) 00:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Please explain which one's you've complained about and why you find those problematic. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 16:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

HiaB, yesterday, you came over to WT:GGTF apparently just to criticize LB. It really didn't seem to contribute anything except your dislike of LB. . No one at GGTF even supported LB on this one particular issue she had opened for discussion, so it's hardly like the above suggestion regarding a hive mind of militant feminists. We seem to have a situation where people who engage in battleground with LB tend to drag it over to GGTF. LB seems to have a genuine interest in the goals of GGTF so her participation there makes sense, but it seems many of those who drag battles over there have no interest in the task force goals and it's disruptive, and it's quite clear there is a group of editors fixated on LB. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 20:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, after visiting the talk page, I early on found that the WT:GGTF is often a hostile place for women. Many editors seem to go there just to stir up debate instead of discussing articles. I can see where editors focused on improving the coverage and participation of women get extremely frustrated. Liz 20:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed it is a hostile place for many women. That is why many of them disdain it but they say the hostility comes from the women who are regularly involved there, not men. - Sitush (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

How can I take that statement seriously considering the amount of provocation you bring to discussions on the GGTF talk page? It is supposed to be a place to collaborate, not challenge people's understanding of gender and male-female relations. It's WP:NOTFORUM which is what it often appears to be. I also note that it seems lately like more men participate there than women which raises its own questions. Liz 22:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The way to take it seriously is to consider what Capeo has said in this thread, ie: if you don't approach every topic there from an avowed feminist theory perspective you're often dismissed as not getting it. That is why it seems that more women are disinterested in it and it is why even constructive criticism (from any gender) is rejected. It seems to me that LB is one of those in the vanguard but perhaps I've just misread her completely. - Sitush (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I could give at least a dozen of diffs of Sitush making that same old "many women" argument, without diffs evidence. As you and a few others like to demand over and over (even though we've answered numerous times): Show us your evidence. (And I don't mean your women Wiki friends.) Lightbreather (talk) 01:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Try the thread , or recent comments at Kaffeeklatsch MfDs or GGTF itself. Beyond that, as you know I have said before, see this, to which you replied. WT:GGTF has perhaps a little over a dozen regulars despite its high profile; the rest, presumably, are just getting on with things. - Sitush (talk) 07:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The link you gave doesn't work. Rather than fix yours and get a lecture over it, here it is: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2015-02-04/News and notes (scroll down to Discuss this story). The story isn't about GGTF - it's about a proposal for a women-only space. One editor identified as a woman and said she didn't feel the need for such a space. How does that support your claim that "many women ... disdain but they say the hostility comes from the women who are regularly involved there, not men"? Here's some advice (which you so love to give), if you're going to continue spreading around this unsubstantiated claim, preface it with "In my opinion" (in fact, most of your comments would be improved by an "IMO"), or at least change "many" to "some." Lightbreather (talk) 15:13, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Well, Lightbreather *has* edited logged out in the past and, when asked about it, played dumb, so it's hardly unreasonable, under the circumstances, to wonder whether she's doing it again – though, as it turns out, in this case she was innocent. Anyway, regardless of any issues Lightbreather may have had with socking, her behaviour is, IMHO, generally disruptive: I consider her a vexatious litigant and a person who never drops the stick. Salvio 19:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • If you can locate one or more of those IP's, it would be interesting to compare with the one that talked itself into a block yesterday. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
    • 72.223.98.118 (talk) and 69.16.147.185 (talk) (Lightbreather denies having operated the latter, but I didn't believe her and still don't). Salvio 20:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
      • And at least two admins and a couple editors believed me. Lightbreather (talk) 01:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• My review: FoF Lightbreather, you initiated the thread, bringing up HiaB by way of a diff, in this post. comment you can hardly expect to start a discussion about another editor, and not expect them to defend themselves.

re: IBAN I decline to impose or support such; dependent upon your own evidence.

Remedy If you want a separation between yourself and your adversaries: 1.) Simply ignore what they are doing, and focus on what you enjoy here. 2.) If you want editors to stop responding to your posts, simply stop posting provocative comments about them.

In closing, for anyone doing a modicum of research here, I doubt you'll find much support for starting a thread about another editor, and then you asking for an IBAN when they respond. Perhaps some may feel that an IBAN being granted toward another editor is somehow a blackmark on that editor, but an IBAN goes both ways. It also speaks to your inability to collaborate with that editor. When you request multiple IBANs on multiple editors, it's saying that you are unable to co-exist with multiple editors. We're not supposed to have closed off little walled gardens here, and the concept is that regardless of disagreements, we are expected to work with one another. If you don't want to interact with another editor, then simply avoid them, and don't start threads about them. — Ched :  ?  20:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

That's easy to do if an editor is not hounding you. It's almost impossible to avoid if they are. Liz 20:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Ched, please see the diffs I just gave (starts with "Commenting on a public thread, huh?") in reply to Hell in a Bucket's claim that the only thing he's said or done about me since ARCA is comment on a (single) public thread. Lightbreather (talk) 01:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• I strongly support imposing a two-way interaction ban between Lightbreather and Hell in a Bucket, as I've said before. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

User:GorillaWarfare were you canvassed by email? Its a central question at to votestacking which Lightbreather has been doing and I'm interested if she did it again with you? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I found this request as I was reading a discussion where I was pinged on User:Eric Corbett's talk page. Lightbreather emailed me soon after; I told her I'd seen it, and that in the future she needs to notify me onwiki or not at all. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

And I would love to know how many of these guys email, text, beep, ping, call, smoke-signal, or whatever each other when something involves me, because it's always the same cast of characters: Hell in a Bucket, Eric Corbett, Sitush, Drmies, Salvio... who'd I miss? Lightbreather (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC) Oh - Carrite. He should be showing up, too. Lightbreather (talk) 21:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, now we can add personal attacks to your list of transgressions. Salvio 21:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Really? This is the "personal attack" you comment on, not Corbett's reference to "militant feminists" above? GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Placed in might I add, a thread started by LB when the two have had a long history of disagreement. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, really. I commented on this personal attack because it's the one I saw. Salvio 21:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support IB Just separate the two already if they aren't getting along, what is the harm of having this in place? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Nope. It is another brick in the walled garden. - Sitush (talk) 21:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• The two way IB would effect both parties involved so if any violation or baiting did occur then it would be dealt with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• The problem is that Lightbreather doesn't want her behaviour criticised and, so, what this thread boils down to is an attempt at getting a critic silenced. Salvio 21:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• There are always going to be critics so she wouldn't be able to silence all of them (its life), if her behavior though is disruptive then it is something an admin can handle. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I reverted the one comment I made that could be considered even a little inflammatory. Why because people have been asking me to tone down the rhetoric. My comments at the SPI suggested a different person entirely for a candidate for meat puppetry and reasons why if it was Lightbreather it was being used. User:BoboMeowCat says I followed Lightbreather to the GGTF yesterday but this was related to the ANI thread and hence why I posted there. I believe Lightbreather is tying a noose for herself (if she continues behaving problematic yes I hope she ties it good and tight but if she changes the behaviors all of a sudden there isn't anything to complain about) and out of the few that listen to her there won't be many left if she continues. This whole interaction ban didn't come up until she taunted me about not using an IP in an arb case which we know all know was a lie. I called her on it and even presented evidence provided by her and this was suddenly outing and harrassment and I was the problem. It's not harrassment to reply to a post about me when the edits weren't even close to problematic, it's not harrassment to comment on forum shopping and canvassing and personal attacks. Those are problems that she is creating through problematic behaviors, she's like a person that is trying to put a fire out with gasoline and torches, this here again ] shows I have and continue to try to show her that it's her behavior not her that's the problem. Why isn't any of that mentioned? Because it doesn't fit the victim narrative she wants to portray. User:Liz you mention that people are hounding her, when she is posting things across wiki on multiple pages in attempt to drum up support, or operate off wiki attack sites a person doesn't have to look that far. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support IB per Knowledgekid87 & GorillaWarfare. I think an interaction ban between these two would reduce some of the ongoing battleground which has been disruptive to the encyclopedia.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support. These two people need to be separated immediately and definitively. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• User:Newyorkbrad were canvassed via email as well? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I was not, and your suggesting it without evidence is obnoxious. I'm familiar with the issues between the two of you going back to my work as an arbitrator, and was horrified when I saw this thread on my watchlist and realized that the infantile feud between the two of you continues to disrupt the project. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:55, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Ok well we have already determined that it is happening by admission of other users sorry you are disturbed by that but the canvassing has been something that she has been warned on a few times so it makes sense she started doing it secretively. Thanks for clarifying though. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Cautionary note - IBANs only work if both parties embrace the ban. And if this is about that maelstrom called Gamergate, perhaps a topic ban would be a better solution - for both parties, of course. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• OMG Bugs twice in a week good ideas ;) A topic ban on subjects relating to gender and civility would be ideal honestly and if that happened it solves all of my concerns with Lightbreather. I can support that. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 21:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• A topic ban would seem to be a more workable solution, otherwise I foresee a large swathe of IBANs happening in the near future as various other people who are struggling with LB's behaviour are brought here for elimination from debate. - Sitush (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Two acorns in less than 24 hours. That may be a new record. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• I disagree with that but a topic ban might be the only way here that both sides will agree to stay away from each other so im on board. I think its a bit much though. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Maybe a temporary topic ban, like say six months. Permanent topic bans often seem like overkill. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• That is workable yes, I don't see LB agreeing with this either though as the GGTF is a huge area of hers. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• If she's drawn so much flak from so many users, then at least a temporary moratorium might be good for all concerned. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Baseball Bugs: I have never edited the "Gamergate" article, or "Gamergate controversy," nor did I participate in the Gamergate ArbCom, except to encourage GorillaWarfare, on her user talk page, to not be pressured into recusing herself from it. Lightbreather (talk) 23:54, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Both topic ban and IBAN. Bugs is right, but so are those advocating an interaction ban. Guy (Help!) 22:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I can't believe what I'm reading. If the problem is conflicts between LB and HIAB, why is a topic ban being proposed from her primary area of editing? That is no more than a punishment and gives the message that HIAB has more to contribute to topics of gender that LB has to be blocked so as not to interact with HIAB which is a ludicrous idea. This is clearly a punitive proposal and for no other reason than that LB has a conflict with HIAB. Liz 22:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree, an immediate reaction by one party embracing a mutual topic ban from gender topics does seem a lot like one of the litigants in the Judgment of Solomon story quickly agreeing that the baby should be put to the sword. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

What topic is being proposed that we be banned from? And why a topic ban? Lightbreather (talk) 01:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment A topic ban from the areas of gender and civilly only seems to further that stated gaol of dealing with "militant feminism". This seems inappropriate. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• The inappropriate behaviors have been happening there in those subject areas unless you think me talking to lightbreather has created all those issues. What do you suggest that stops the problematic behaviors? Specifically removing me from the picture wouldn't have stopped her from socking, removing me from the picture doesn't stop her from forum shopping, it doesn't stop the camvassing and it doesn't stop the use of those to bludgeon her opponents into silence. How much more would a GGTF work with people that actually want to work with others to solve the problem, if you notice only 3 names really come to mind for problematic editors, CMDC, Neotarf and Lightbreather. There is a lot more moderate women there that could further the cause. Think about this last point...she was topic banned from gun control, her re-entry seems to be a lot more genial in that area, imagine if the same result could be obtained for xivility and feminism. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

If the group of editors fixated on LB would stop following her to GGTF to insult her or argue with her that would help. Especially considering LB seems genuinely interested in gender issues and the task force goals, while the detractors seems mostly interested in arguing with LB and/or stomping out "militant" feminism. I don't agree with everything LB says or does but she's not the problem on GGTF.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Is the perpetual debate here about Gamergate, really little more than an extension of the global Gamergate debate itself? If so, how does it serve the interests of Misplaced Pages and its readers? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• No I have not any involvement with gamergate, not one edit other then I vouched for a few editors that I previously had disagreements with that I didn't htink should be banned. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Bugs, as far as I can tell this has nothing to do with Gamergate. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Appy polly loggies. I misinterpreted something as being a reference to Gamergate. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I guess I read a different SPI report than you because the one I saw cleared LB so your accusations that she is socking could be seen as a PA. Liz 22:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Liz Well you could twist what I stated I suppose but here's the spi where it was determined that she was socking ]. The complaints and req for the IBAN happened only after she tried to get me blocked for outing her by making the SPI and in this SPI I actually suspected and said as much that I thought it was Neotarf but could understand why people thought it was Lightbreather and I answered a query that MIKE V stated he didn't think was plausable. Context is pretty important (look at time of comments between mine and MIke's) and it seems you may not have understood it the way I meant(hopefully that's all it is) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Liz see ] question to me, and then ] my reply. Pretty reasonable as a result of a direct question. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support mutual iban per GorillaWarfare and Newyorkbrad, with no prejudice against topic bans. This puerile conflict is a waste of everyone's time. Ibans work quite adequately provided that they are enforced with escalating blocks up to and including site bans.- MrX 22:35, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support Per GorillaWarfare, Newyorkbrad, and MrX. If it won't solve the problem we can try something else, but this seems like a good idea right now. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• It will solve a problem. The difficulty is that it will not solve the problem, which is (simplified) LB vs everyone else. She has run amok with policy, guidelines and common sense for a while now and an IBAN here is just the thin end of what will likely be a thick wedge. I am actually astonished that her canvassing etc has been tolerated for as long as it has. - Sitush (talk) 00:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support As a note: not canvassed. Saw my ol' friend Coffee (talk · contribs) was back and wanted to send him an email and a range of red notifications led me here. HIAB and LB need to be IBAN'd. This is not a case of silencing a critic, this is a case of removing a instigator. Sorry, HIAB, but that's what you have done and are doing here and there is no other way to put it. @Salvio giuliano: Have you considered that the fact that the first personal attack you noted was by someone you are prejudiced against and that you completely missed the more obvious personal attack is a sign that you are not looking at this impartially? If I were you, after the other personal attack was noted by @GorillaWarfare:, I would address both personal attacks. It strikes me, then, as quite serious that instead of addressing both personal attacks, you instead chose to lash out at your fellow arbitrator. Really quite telling. @LB and @HIAB: Please, neither of you email me in response to my comments here. I won't respond, and I also won't respond here anymore.--v/r - TP 00:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose This is getting really ridiculous. If time and time again they cannot be trusted to not be at each other's throats and behave themselves like normal adults, then they are at odds with the collaborative environment here, and it is not unreasonable to say that they have no place editing here. It is high time we show them both the door, because this bureaucratic proposal will only lead to more bureaucracy and veiled sniping at one another and generate more heat than light. KonveyorBelt 01:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Well im glad there is a consensus to at least do something regarding the two, I feel the community has just about had enough given some of the comments. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose interaction ban (they rarely work anyway) and support topic ban for both (they do work and are consistent with the "prevent disruption" purpose of sanctions). St★lwart 05:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support interaction ban, oppose topic ban. Exactly the opposite of the above. Also not canvassed; just an interested observer seeing a clear pattern of hounding going on. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

In which direction? Wouldn't that warrant a one-way ban of some sort instead? (for the record, I disagree - I think the disruption has been from both and relates directly to the specific topic, rather than some general animosity) St★lwart 06:36, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

LB asked for a ban between them; that's inherently two-way. A topic ban is superficially symmetric, but banning both the person interested in addressing gender-gap issues and the person clearly not is just more systemic bias perpetuation. That's not an endorsement of LB's approach to the topic, which I agree has contributed to the disruption. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. St★lwart 09:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any idea of a one-way interaction ban - One-ways are unfair, now and forever. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose IBAN which will do nothing to resolve any actual difference. I also think that topic bans should be decided on according to behaviour and not according to contribution. A badly behaved editor cannot be endorsed on the merits of contribution as I think that this would endorse bullying and potentially WP:OWN. On top of any topic ban I would support a short term Misplaced Pages ban to give both editors time to reflect. GregKaye 12:36, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Interaction bans are not good for the wiki. Editors interested in the same area need to collaborate and it follows that they need to interact. If that is not possible, then figure out which editor is the bigger problem and topic ban them. If both are a problem, topic ban both. An interaction ban sounds like an easy solution but, and I've seen this time and again, it doesn't work and only adds to the misery of editing on Misplaced Pages ('he edited a page that I edited first', 'she commented on a topic that I had mentioned to another editor back in the 60s' - do you all really want to spend your time here dealing with crap like that?) --regentspark (comment) 14:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Comment As far as I can see, HiaB has little to no interest in the topic areas proposed for the topic ban (gender issues and civility). Those are LB's interest areas, which a group of editors (including HiaB) apparently follow LB to. Topic ban appears to be the way to vote if you want to punish LB while leaving HiaB completely off the hook. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm not aware that HIAB has a preferred topic area. He spends most of his time patrolling (recent changes maybe?), nominating articles for deletion, starting or participating in SPIs... Does he plan to be an admin someday? Of course he'll be happy with a topic ban, but my question still remains: What topic are we talking about? None of his comments about me have had anything to do with a topic that I'm aware of. He's just wants the world to know that HE THINKS I'm a lying, forum-shopping, canvassing - did I miss anything? - maybe he thinks I'm a man-hater? Is he one of the ones that calls me a "militant feminist"? Of course he doesn't like that I won't always ignore foul language. This isn't about a topic. It's about him being on a mission to "expose" me as some evil editor whom no-one else can see.

Also, FWIW, I've only ever asked for three IBANs. And I've maybe asked a half-dozen people to stay off my talk page. This whole walled-garden talk is nonsense. I only want what the policies and guidelines say we're supposed to have. Space to work without harassment. If someone has a problem with me and content, bring it up on an article talk page. If they have a problem with my behavior, take it to the appropriate board - with evidence - or leave me alone. Quit gossiping about me like a bunch of teenagers. Lightbreather (talk) 15:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Fairly accurate at least according to my interests. I write about what intrigues me and I do a lot of new page patrol and I am involved in SPI. I do not go to subjects I have zero knowledge of, IE gun control and I don't really care about porn articles. I do not like censorship, I think it's mis-used and is rarely done in a fair way. The problem is that you (LB) call things harrassment that isn't harrassment. Opening a SPI and providing evidence is not harrassment, staying away from you is not harrassment, commenting at a SPI started by others is not harrassment when the comments are about that issue and not about the contributor (as much as possible given that the SPI was about you hard to avoid that), answering a question with a speculation of motives or reason you were involved with meatpupptery/socking is not harrassment. I don't even think your dragging everybody and their brother to boards to accomplish your ends is not harrassment. I think ultimately it stains your reputation and if you want to continue trampling it that's up to you. Am I or will I ever attempt to be an admin? No, I don't have the will to bend over politically that you have to to get the mop and bit and it would be a train wreck idf I did. The sad fact you complain about evidence but in SPI and especially in the behavioural phase it isn't always going to be explicit and I think that's what you want. I was right the first time you were sovking and I'm probably right there is coordination going on this time too. It's not that hard to see, IP 172 starts not one but 2 investigations on Lightbreather and Darknipples. Then all of a sudden it's using lightbreather to further this cause on nudity and porn. Lightbreather then states that the IP deserves an award. Now if you look above Lightbreather has a detailed list of everyone she considers hounding her, it includes admin, arbs and some regular editors. Does anyone think that she all of a sudden forgot that this IP started these SPI's? Does that fit the behavior we've seen here? Not so much. So then you have to ask yourself if it isn't Lightbreather who else agreed with her on those issues. CMDC and Neotarf so I responded and stated I can understand why she someone thinks she is socking but a more likely person is Neotarf. I didn't have a lot to go on just a gut feeling and a single diff which was similar and I noted it was flimsy. After this the circus of victimhood is started again and we get the passionate scream of help, I need protection from HIAB. There is a clear difference in behaviors, I try to change mine (less rhetoric) and Lightbreather sees no problem at all with anything she has done ever. I've yet to see one statement of accountability about her methods other then excuse her own misbehaviors. I've diff'd most of this beyond count before so unless anyone has specific questions about incidents I will not be providing them here again as I view it as a tactic to wear down people rather then address the behaviors and I won't repeat myself ad nasuem. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 15:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Lightbreather can simply ignore HIAB and stay away. That should solve the problem. If not, then any subsequent problems can be evaluated more clearly. SPECIFICO talk 15:47, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I just blocked Lightbreather for 24 hours for canvassing. I had previously delivered a final warning to her to stop that behavior. I didn't see the canvassing until now, or I would have issued the block earlier. Karanacs (talk) 18:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support - IBAN for both editors. It's obvious these two can't get along and will probably never get along, so banning them from interacting with one another is a reasonable solution. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support - IBAN for both editors, and oppose topic bans for the same reasons previously stated by others. Obviously, some action is needed here, but I don't believe punishment for making a request to resolve an issue is justifiable. Before anyone decides to cast aspersions on me for stating my position here, I will say that I have not been "canvassed". LB and I are just Wiki-friends and I have been following her dispute history with HiaB for a while now, unbeknownst to her. Darknipples (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support - IBAN but not topic ban. IBAN should ease issues. A topic ban would be applicable if hostilities continue, otherwise one is being punished for (or not being able to restrain from responding to) the actions of another. Anything that discourages WP:NOTHERE and encourages WP:DROPTHESTICK is preferable. AnonNep (talk) 19:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support IBAN per NewYorkBrad and GorillaWarfare. -- Calidum 19:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose any type of interaction ban. I've seen Hell in a Bucket do nothing but attempt to detest drama and attempt to enforce the policies and guidelines, and the amount of drama that has been result of Lightbreather's obsession with certain editing topics and more recently canvassing and in all is truly getting ridiculous. I would support a standard topic ban against Lightbreather. Tutelary (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• oppose a mutual topic ban as I think the topic has nothing to do with the conflict. While I do not think an interaction ban is necessary, I have no objections to a mutual interaction ban (I would strongly oppose a one-sided ban). However, if this is granted and Lightbreather asks for interaction bans with any other editors in the next 12 months, I think she needs to be sanctioned. Interaction bans should be used as a last resort, not to eliminate opposing voices or to mask an inability to get along with others. Lightbreather does edit primarily in contentious topic areas, but many others do likewise without needing multiple interaction bans. Karanacs (talk) 23:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support IBAN. HAIB has pursued Lightbreather for months, obviously watching everything she does, and commenting on and to her frequently and sometimes at great length. It isn't good for either party. Sarah (SV) 01:11, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose IBAN. In the past, I've been a vocal supporter of both Lightbreather and Hell in a Bucket. Recent events have led to me to reevaluate my position, not in favor of any party but in terms of my own experience with both editors. I think when we look at the signal to noise (drama) ratio, we find that Lightbreather has a tendency to escalate matters unnecessarily. My main issue with Hell in a Bucket is his lack of brevity. If he could work on that, it might help improve his effectiveness as a communicator. Viriditas (talk) 01:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose IBAN. Completely agree with Viriditas. Hell in a Bucket has been useful in the past by exposing real problems. I probably would have been banned by a false SPI report, reopened unjustly, if not for his persistence in pointing out what was going on. So I'm thankful for that. But as Viriditas says, if he could be concise and not overdo it. Every comment doesn't need his response. EChastain (talk) 01:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support IBAN. Two way, of course. Clearly Lightbreather and Hell in a Bucket can not get along. This does not mean anyone's hands are or are not clean - just that they can not get along. This does not mean GGTF will become more of a walled garden or that Lightbreather will not find anyone to argue with - I personally argue with her plenty of times, and on the pages of the GGTF. And yet, I don't see her asking for an interaction ban with me. We get along fine, and civilly, even if we do not always agree. --GRuban (talk) 01:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I intimated as much in an earlier comment above. GRuban, this is indeed another brick in the wall of the garden, at least around the garden that is LB if not around GGTF itself, and "civility" is a vague concept. A mutual topic ban (civility, gender), as mentioned above, would achieve far more than a two-way IBAN, which merely enables LB and removes a proven "investigator" from the scene (bear in mind, LB hotly denied socking but HiaB was deemed to be correct). That people cannot see LB is a quite extreme pov-pusher dismays me. (Feel free to block me now, @Coffee: - like all the other serious, experienced content contributors, I count for little in your worldview when compared to political activists, And, of course, you have already admitted that you do not even bother to check the history.) - Sitush (talk) 02:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support IBAN. HIAB's preoccupation with Lightbreather teeters on the edge of WP:NPA and WP:HOUND. gobonobo 03:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at this diff speaks volumes to me as a relatively new user. Sadly, from what I have gathered from my limited experience, and in seeing some of the day to day, WP:Civility does seem to be much of a grey area all too often around here. Even though HiaB reverted it, it shows that they did not have the self-control to stop and consider the ramifications before they hit "save", at best. Considering HiaB is an experienced editor, it's possible, if not probable, they knew LB would see it. This seems like the definition of WP:BAIT, and considering their history, I wonder if HiaB knew they could either get away with it, and thusly, use it to their advantage. I do not mean to disparage HiaB, but as a newbie, I still tend to judge users on their textual contributions with WP:AGF in mind. How much more of that type of discourse should LB have tolerated, and for how long, before she brought this to our attention? I think LB has demonstrated that she is willing to WP:STICK, but I cannot, and will not, attempt to speak for HiaB. An IBAN seems like a reasonable effort, even if LB is faced with sanctions for continual reliance on such means for dispute resolution for the next 12 months, or even more. I believe she has the discipline and the understanding. Given the aforementioned diff by HiaB, I'm not sure I can say the same for them, no offense to them. Darknipples (talk) 04:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Final statement on this issue by HiaB

Looks like an interaction ban will pass, oh well. I will outline a few things to clear up a few misconceptions that may not have been sufficiently diff'd. I've made mention of underhanded actions let me illustrate just a few since Dec that are being glossed over or ignored.

• Complaint ] Saying I attempted out her using publicly provided info by herself however when the tables are turned and she decides it's ok for her to out the next percieved next perceived opponent prompting this warning ]
• Warning about Personal attacks ] and her response here ]. So again it's not ok if someone else does it but if Lightbreather does it there is not harm. I'd also like to point out this is not in accordance with her manifesto User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch/Pledge about civility or maintain off wiki attack sites like ]. Ask yourself is this person's hands really that clean?
• Complaints about subheadings like ] which was actually aimed at the arb that put his foot in his mouth and lo and behold what was this thread titled with?
• History of vote stacking as evidenced almost 30 times in January when trying to get approval for her pledge and then again when it was at MFD.

There is much more I can show but I doubt the effort will pay off but if you also look at ] my message hasn't changed a few things have been added but I first came across Lightbreather in mid to late july 2014 during forumshopping and stated that. The behaviors are the problem, if she fixes the behaviors that's up to her. If the community really thinks I'm the issue and a topic ban or board restriction isn't worthwhile at all go for it, we all bend over for consensus. Mark my words though you will be back here, the names will change but there will be one constant, If lightbreather doesn't like it you have harrassed her. Ask yourself Do you think Chillum, Ched, Salvio and Drmies and Kerancs are all wrong and just targeting Lightbreather? That's nothing to take away from GW or others that agree with Lightbreather (I actually respected GW spoke up with the stopping of the canvassing by stealth btw) and I only asked those two people because I knew that those two people have been people she has run to in the past and if she asked one there is at least a few more we don't know about. It's up to each person to actually look at the disruption, if you think I was the cause of her gun control topic ban ok, if you think I made her have multiple conflicts with multiple people ok, if you think that letting her have more leeway then the average editor because of the message then people should just state that we will put up with bullshit because of x. Don't sweep it under the carpet, that's where the damage is being done. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:28, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism: adding Single-purpose_account tags

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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is falsly accusing users of Misplaced Pages:Single-purpose_account in an attempt to belittle or redicule their arguments. Please take a look at these false attributions on Talk:Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships and issue a warning to prevent further trolling. 143.176.62.228 (talk) 17:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I can say from experience that the OP IP is a WP:TEND WP:SPA. Juggling stuff, will be back with diffs in a bit. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• I just found something delicious on that talk page: "Awesome self published book from Lulu.com, best $100 the author spent." I don't know who wrote it, but I'm going to borrow it. Drmies (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• RAN, SPA tags are usually little more than a way for other SPA editors to vent a little, to put a scarlet letter on someone. No one needs the tags, certainly not a closer in an RfC (if they're worth their salt). Besides, I never cared for them on principle: an argument should stand or fall with the argument, not with who utters it. Having said that, IP, please stop bitching: I'm going to close this because it disfigures my beautiful ANI board, and you've been at this topic (from this IP), and almost no other, since 4 January. Drmies (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Atlantisch

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Atlantisch (talk · contribs) is an SPA who only edits the article about Prof. Aisin-Gioro Ulhicun and articles related to Ulhicun's areas of research, mostly adding links to papers written by Ulhicun or updating the list of her works. Atlantisch's editing has been fairly benign until recently when they copied and pasted the entire contents of a self-promotional paper on the Academic Achievements of Prof. AISIN GIORO Ulhicun into the Aisin-Gioro Ulhicun article. I have had to revert the addition of this material five times over the past few days, and as they are not willing to engage in discussion and show no indication that they are prepared to follow Misplaced Pages policies, I think some sort of sanction is in order. BabelStone (talk) 18:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa: There is one more revision that needs deletion, found here -- Orduin 19:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I will get it when I get home from work. Thanks, -- Diannaa (talk) 20:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninja Diannaa (talk • contribs)

Vandalising user and personal attacks

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User Vhjhv is a vandalism only account, who continues to send personal attacks on his talk page. He shows no signs of stopping and I think admin intervention is necessary at this point. Weegeerunner (talk) 19:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You will probably get a more prompt response, Weegeerunner, if you file a complaint at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism noticeboard. Liz 19:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. Rjd0060 (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The Rashidun Caliphate article

Hi.

I and some other users are having a disagreement about how the Rashidun caliphate page should be edited.

I have decide to take this up with the administrators because it seems that every single edit I have made has been deleted, and is now no longer found even on the revision history page.

Some users there feel that I should not be removing so much information, which I guess is a reasonable debate. THe problem is that in spite of my requests to talk about changse atomically, every change I make gets removed, rather than only ones they disagree with, or ones that remove information.

I find that the curent state of the article is a disgrace. An absolute disgrace. It is nothing short of pro-Sunni Muslim propaganda. On such a touchy subject, I am bothered that an information source held to the regard wikipedia for some reason is contains this much overt propaganda.

This is the relevant talk section: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Rashidun_Caliphate

Here is the revision history: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Rashidun_Caliphate&action=history

Note that the very substantial changes I made are completely missing now.

I am not raising a complaint against these users, but I would like administrator intervention anyway. The article contains many, MANY sections that very obviously do not have a neutral point of view. The parts I remove or shorten serve to change the language to be neutral, and the sections I removed a) add nothing to the actual article b) are completely unsourced and serve as propaganda.

I made probably 20+ changes. These all removed and no longer even in the history. What do I do in this situation?

User:Kansas Bear seems to have started with this, and grouped together even changes that were not mine and removed them wholesale. Is that really acceptable? What do I do in this situation when a) my changes are unfairly grouped together on objections that apply to a minority of changes b) an article is so overtly written as propaganda?

Eternal of sirus (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution, second on the left down the hallway. We are, I am afraid, janitors, not riot police. Guy (Help!) 22:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Eternal of sirus, I'll just add that you made a lot of edits in a short period of time. That kind of editing gets people's attention as does the talk page statement that I am beginning a complete re-write of this article.. Other editors will object to that kind of declaration. And your edits are all in the page's revision history so they have not been removed. Liz 22:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Requesting block review of User:Thewolfchild

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Hi, could an admin please review the block of User:Thewolfchild? He was blocked by User:Nick-D and I feel its a bad block because Nick is WP:INVOLVED and has a WP:COI. It's bad practice for an admin to block an editor under these situations. The whole thing should of been handled by a neutral admin who was not involved. It should also be noted that Nick has been in conflict in the past with the same editor and has blocked him in the past as well so the two have a history with each other. Caden 22:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The block was reviewed and upheld by Coffee - why isn't that good enough? (Genuine question, I'm still looking to see what I can find out about the background here - it would help if you gave diffs). Bencherlite

It's not good enough because the admin Nick is invovled and coffee did not know that. Caden 22:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You still haven't shown why Nick was involved or had a COI such as to disqualify him from taking administrative action. The fact that Nick extended a block to indef back in 2012 before Thewolfchild apologised and was unblocked does not make him involved - is there anything else? Bencherlite 22:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

nick got involved here and then it was taken to nick's talk page and thewolfchild's talk page resulting in nick blocking him. Caden 22:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who gets himself blocked over something as trivial as the size of images is probably better off sitting out the block (which expires just tomorrow morning anyway). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

(e.c with BB) I don't agree with you, Caden. Nick referred Thewolfchild to WP:IMGSIZE, then warned and thereafter blocked him for his rude talk page messages. He was not "involved" and had no conflict of interest. Coffee correctly reviewed the block and upheld it for personal attacks. Thewolfchild was most unwise to repeat his rude tone after he had been warned about being blocked. Endorse block as within original admin's margin of discretion to block and within reviewing admin's margin of discretion to uphold. Bencherlite 23:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Nick had no business blocking this editor. It is a bad block. Caden 23:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Repeating that you don't agree with it won't get you anywhere. Bencherlite 23:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I was not WP:INVOLVED here: I was simply pointing out the relevant policy regarding image sizes in my role as an admin as part of responding to Thewolfchild's abusive message to another editor wrongly claiming that they were breaching this policy, and rude talk page post claiming that they were "not sure why" their changes to the image size were being reverted. I also noted this in my warning to Thewolfchild. I did not express an option on whether I think that this was one of the instances where image sizes should be forced. I haven't previously been "in conflict" with the Thewolfchild. This appears to be another instance of Caden misinterpreting WP:INVOLVED and attacking my blocks of obviously disruptive editors to make some kind of point. I really have no idea why he or she is still doing this, but it's pretty tiresome (this discussion from 2013 is relevant). Nick-D (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm... Is Thewolfchild still under undergoing mentorship for his difficulties working with others? His recent participation at WT:FILMBIO doesn't fill me with confidence that the mentorship is working/has worked... -Thibbs (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Reviewing administrator comment: I'm not sure what User:Caden is attempting to achieve here. Thewolfchild made personal attacks and was, properly, blocked per our policy WP:NPA. It matters not whether Nick-D has a prior history with this user (which it appears is not the case anyways, at least in any form that would cause concern), the block was well warranted and therefore should have been put in place. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 23:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Nu Yawk NY

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Nu Yawk NY (talk · contribs) is edit-warring on FAs like Washington, D.C. and Virginia to incorrectly label these places as being in the northeastern part of the country. Besides leaving rambling comments like this one at Talk:Maryland, I received this lovely note on my talk page, with comments like "This article or articles is by a straight up Ghetto Hood Project New York City N*****. The five boroughs is thorough. And you damn right I said N**** meaning for those who don't know. Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished. Now I see I have to break this shit down lil more illa for you slow dumb Muthafuckas out there." etc. If the edit-warring isn't a blockable offense, I think that last comment should at least warrant a strong warning from an admin, if not a block. APK whisper in my ear 23:04, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked indef for disruptive editing and WP:NOTHERE. Bencherlite 23:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. APK whisper in my ear 23:24, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

User:EvergreenFir 2.0 misusing its talk page while blocked.

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He was blocked for vandalism, then made a personal attack on his own talk page. I reverted it, then issued my own 4im warning. He then made another personal attack (2 actually), so I reverted them back. Please revoke talk page access. --ToonLucas22 (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Willy on wheels moves Boko Haram to Boko Haram on round objects

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Someone want to look into the editing history of User:Herxacula, who seems to specifically like our old buddy Willy on wheels as per this edit summary? John Carter (talk) 02:36, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

WoW that brings back memories. Blocked, reverting. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 02:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Isn't there an edit filter supposed to catch this stuff now? Maybe it needs updating. --Jayron32 02:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Well the editor has now been indef'd I feel this can be closed. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Cindy's Cafe aka 109.246.133.205

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So there is pretty much an edit warhappening on a few pages now between myself and User:Cindy's Cafe aka 109.246.133.205. But now I'm posting here I wont eb doing any reverts fir a while.

The situation is; The editor in question first removed a pre-fix 'The Right Honourable' from the article Karren Brady stating "She is NOT a member of the Privy Council. ONLY members of the PRIVY COUNCIL bear the title 'Rt Hon'. CHECK PARLIAMENT.UK" In turn reverted stating "All Life Peers and Hereditary Peers (Baron, Earl & Viscount) use The Rt. Hon.". I then left a message on Cindy's Cafe talk page with the information about the correct use of the title with references. Cindy's Cafe then 'Blanked the page' with no response. Since then the editor sometimes logged on and sometimes not, has been removing the title several pages, and has been reverted by other editors as well only talking (rarely) through edit comments.

Pages in question so far:

• David Chidgey, Baron Chidgey
• John Prescott
• Karren Brady
• Martha Lane Fox, Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho

Some more in question:

• Alan Sugar
• Michael Grade

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall on this one, any help would be appreciated. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:30, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I have to say that it's a little ironic for you to have warned CC about edit warring when you fully admit that you are the other party in the edit war. And as far as CC blanking his/her talk page, well, there's no guideline against doing that. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that CC and the above IP are the same user? Did s/he admit it and I missed it? Erpert 04:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Hey I'll be the (I was) the first to say it was an edit war. But CC failed to discuss it, I'm not the only editor to revert the edits. Both CC and IP have a similar edit history in removing specific content and editing articles about the TV show 'Eastenders'. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 05:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

If you think you have substantial evidence that they could be the same user, head to WP:SPI. Erpert 10:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• I wonder whether Erpert actually looked at the relevant editing history at all before asking "how did you come to the conclusion that CC and the above IP are the same user?" Even a very brief look at the history makes it perfectly clear, way beyond any doubt, that Cindy's Cafe has used the IP address, and also at least one other IP address in the 109.246.133.x range. (Unfortunately, the toolserver tool for checking contributions from an IP range is in one of its very frequent periods of not working, which is why I have to say "at least one", and can't tell whether any other IP addresses have been used too.) Going to WP:SPI would be completely pointless. Simply sometimes logging in to an account and sometimes not is not in itself sockpuppetry. I don't see any overlap in time between the editor's editing the same articles logged-in and unlogged-in, nor anything else which makes the IP-editing/account-editing combination an abuse.
• We have an edit war between two editors. Both editors were aware quite a while ago of the edit warring issue: Cindy's Cafe was warned about edit warring, while Nford24 was certainly aware of the issue, as she or he was the one who posted a talk page warning about it. It looks as though this is one of the very frequent occasions when an editor somehow fails to grasp the point that edit warring is edit warring whether or not the editor in question is convinced that the edits are justified. I shall block both editors for edit warring. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Judy Henske

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Could an admin take a look at this edit? The edit itself is not a problem - the problem is the edit summary, which seems to me to be defamatory of a prominent living person. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:53, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit summary revdel'd, user warned. Yunshui _水 09:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Deejhy Sheikh

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Deejhy Sheikh (talk · contribs) is a sock of User:Sheikh Zaman ll. (see the SPI case) Normally I would wait for a clerk or CU to look at the case, but the user and his IP are removing the speedy template from his latest autobiographical article and trolling my talk page. Can someone nip this in the bud? APK whisper in my ear 10:13, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. Thank you. JohnCD (talk) 10:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 10:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

About Marathi Script

I am here to inform that Mr.NeilN has repeatedly erased the indic script name of 'Maharashtra' and he has took the false support of self-interpretation of WP:INDICSCRIPT, Today is Marathi Day in Maharashtra 27th Feb in India and NeilN is erasing marathi name from the initial sentence, What problem is with indic script for Maharashtra? If The WP:INDICSCRIPT is enforced for Maharashtra, then it will and shall be enforced for every Indian state Sarita Narvekar (talk) 13:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Your edits caught my attention as you are displaying the same behavior as Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Sumedh Tayade/Archive. --NeilN 13:07, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Block evasion? Or meatpuppetry? It is odd to see two people going at this same language script, and citing the same false argument that we are targeting the Marathi language. - Sitush (talk) 13:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Seems like taking revenge on other articles too like Karnataka. Shrikanthv (talk) 13:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they're probably trying to prove a point but at least that's productive. --NeilN 13:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Sitush and Neil, it's nice to see the two of you in action. Drmies (talk) 16:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

They're also hypocritical. --NeilN 05:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Conduct of Mrmike1695

(retitled from "Disruption from Mrmike1695" per wp:TALKNEW) --doncram 14:30, 27 February 2015 (UTC))

Despite numerous warnings littered on his talk page for misleading edit summaries and adding unsourced content, Mrmike1695 is continuing with the same behavior. This series introduced an incorrect rating and this is not a typo. Two diffs but the problem has been ongoing and the only attempt at acknowledging the issues was this. --NeilN 14:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I concur. The inappropriate "fixed typo" edit summaries can be explained by ignorance and tech gone bad, but the history of persistent disruptive edits remains.

Mrmike1695 can be marginally recognized as trying to build an encyclopedia through multiple contested edits, but a consistent failure to respond positively to the community means, in my opinion, that Mrmike1695 should be retired as a name for further contribution. Willondon (talk) 15:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I never bothered to start an incident report, just figured someone who spends more time on the backalleys of WP would get to it, but yes, my issue with this user is not his edit summaries (after the first repeated use of it on the Big L page I assumed that it was the auto-fill setting on his phone's browser, not a malicious lie about his editing). That said, he's an atrocious user, when not trying to aggrandize the subject of an article, he's over-complicating section headings (one he made something like 15-20 words) and ridiculously persnickety about established "years active" and "date recorded" etc type entries. To say nothing of the hilarious message he left me on my talk page because I kept removing an album he listed on Big L's discography that was clearly already listed. I support a block, but he'd just make a new account. JesseRafe (talk) 16:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

User evading block and re-creation of page deleted many, many times.

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Festivalindia (talk · contribs) has just (re)created this article within 15 minutes of registering their account. It's previously been titled this and has been deleted four times since December due to WP:SOCK issues (see the deletion log). Please can someone do the necessary with this page/user too? Thanks. Lugnuts 15:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Nuked page, blocked Festivalindia (talk · contribs), Cannesindia (talk · contribs), Rawlyani (talk · contribs). Their edits should be reviewed. NativeForeigner 15:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Hmarskiy II

• Hmarskiy II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 1. Malicious editing with a long past history of outright vandalism to the article of Bad Boys Blue - a musical group - the ongoing activity spanning several years now; 2. Most recently, the user copies and pastes my own editing/restoring remarks at the end of his persistent reverts, and continues to insert controversial and unsubstantiated information into the article, despite being advised not to on numerous occasions; 3. The user may be a paid member with a conflict of interests, as the his past edits attest to persistent inclusion of promotional material into the band's wiki page; 4. MOST IMPORTANTLY: this is a former anon user who created a userid with the sheer purpose to circumvent the protected status of the page in order to continue his disruptive editing. Please intervene. Lionscitygl (talk) 19:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@Lionscitygl: Please notify the user in question on their talk page using {{subst:ANI-notice|thread=User:Hmarskiy II}}. Thank you! -- Orduin 20:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

That was attempted long ago. Intervention is requested. Lionscitygl (talk) 20:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Before I placed the notice on their talk page, the only other content of the talk page was a welcome. No deleted notices either. Nothing on the talk page of the article in question. As well, the accusation that the account was created for the purpose of circumventing the protection, just look at the earliest contributions of Hmarskiy II. They are from 2010, hardly a recent issue. And, after the protection was lowered, their edits to the article did not start until a few months later. I do not see any current attempt to contact the editor at all, except in edit summaries, which is not acceptable.

I just found this AIV report on Hmarskiy II. Please have patience, though, from my knowledge of AIV, it will be turned down quickly.

All and all, this just seems to be a content dispute mixed with ownership issues. -- Orduin 21:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Orduin, thank you for looking into the this. Prior to alerting you of the matter, I've had an ample of opportunity to familiarize myself with the contributions from the said user. So, let's be clear on that. Also, please re-read what the word "recent" refers to in the context. With all the due respect, if you have multiple individuals/accounts trying to push absolutely the same controversial line of thrust both in style and presentation (which alludes to their "possible" association), are you honestly going to be expected to address every single one of them... anew? After all, one does not have to begin editing right away after a certain implementation took place on the page... especially if its "predecessor" was working in the exact same venue. And if I didn't follow certain wiki guidelines - no such oversight was intended on my part. Lionscitygl (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

1. Look at your fix other people's edits (not just mine) without argument - an impression that you are a real vandal. 2. My information is confirmed by the source to which you deliberately do not pay attention. 3. All sources that you're not interested perceived as advertising. 4. Where argument that I am a former customer? Empty words and no more. Hmarskiy II (talk) 10:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm really expected to address the above... creativity, but I will do so this time as a matter of courtesy - something that I do not expect reciprocity on. 1. I think this isn't the first time I've been accused of being "a real vandal" for dealing with a member of that pack. Defense by means of aggression is not the newest invention these days... 2. That is exactly the point of it: "the source", as in conflict of interest. 3. No, not all, but it is heavy on advertising nevertheless. 4. It's a great day today. Sure. Lionscitygl (talk) 16:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

User 95.147.94.14 vandalism & refactoring talk page

Blocked 1 week. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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User talk:95.147.94.14 - after some vandalism (see links in diff) the ip editor is refactoring talk page comments e.g. in this diff Sjgknight (talk) 20:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked a week. Removing is fine, making people say things they didn't say, not so much. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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User:189.82.3.18 vandalism

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189.82.3.18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:189.82.3.18 is on a vandalism binge today. Please see the following:

• Ann Dunham
• User talk:Peaceray
• Ann Dunham
• Iranian Armenians
• Assyrians in Iran

Peaceray (talk) 21:25, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

please pardonnez-moi, i'm innocent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.82.3.18 (talk) 21:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Additional

• Dilma Rousseff
• Lifestylez ov da Poor & Dangerous

Peaceray (talk) 22:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for one week; see also 189.82.19.170 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) from yesterday. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

User:DD2K and User:Rjensen engaging in personal attacks in lieu of discussion

A content dispute has been taking place on the article Democratic Party (United States). I have only reverted to the last stable version, which DID NOT include the content in question. @Rjensen: @DD2K: have been edit-warring to try to include the new content. While maintaining the last stable version (within my 3RR limits), I have encouraged the other editors to use the talk page to hash out new content, rather than edit-warring over it, and directly spoke to Rjensen with a friendly warning and an attempt to show that I'm reasonable and willing to discuss this issue. When Rjensen finally DID go to the talk page, he/she titled the thread "POV edits by TBSchemer," rather than creating a thread focused on the content they were trying to add. This is entirely inappropriate harassment. Additionally, this is not the first time Dave Dial has engaged in this sort of behavior. Dave Dial has engaged in a wikihounding campaign of overly-personal reversions and unprovoked personal attacks against me and other editors, with a long history of failing to discuss his edits. He has been warned for this behavior directly by Jimbo Wales himself. I have tried to maintain civility with this editor, but he seems determined to blow it up. When I finally reported Dave Dial for joining the edit war (which I have stopped participating in out of respect for WP:3RR), he and Rjensen ganged up on me to try to argue that I should be banned. Dave Dial has repeatedly shown that he is incapable of dealing constructively with other editors. To my knowledge, Rjensen does not have the same sort of record of disruptive behavior, but he/she is largely responsible for the current problem. I need an administrator to help remind these users of WP:Civility and convince them to either engage with me without personally attacking me, or just leave me alone. TBSchemer (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

This is already being discussed at the edit warring noticeboard here. 331dot (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

This one is a report on the personal attacks (a conduct dispute) that requires administrator intervention to get these two users to behave with civility. The other is a report on edit-warring (a content dispute) that requires administrator intervention to restore the last stable version of the article and perhaps to protect it until these disputes can be resolved. TBSchemer (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The edit warring noticeboard closed the discussion there and referred me here. So this is now the open thread on these problems. TBSchemer (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

While article discussion headings should not mention editors, you would be best advised to change the heading and politely refer the other editor toi the "New topics and headings on talk pages" guideline. That does not require administrative action. Also, you appear to be in a content dispute with three other editors. There is nothing administrators can do about that. If you disagree with the others, then you need to post to a content discussion page and hope other editors will weigh in. I suggest this section be closed. TFD (talk) 02:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

But dealing with User:DD2K's hounding and personal attacks does require an administrator. He has met all the requirements for a block, and doing so would prevent him from causing further disruption. TBSchemer (talk) 10:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

And Rjensen continues to attack my character on that same thread, even after I have disengaged. On this thread, he has openly and knowingly lied about the content dispute (claiming that I was the one who made new edits to this article, when in fact I only reverted new edits to the last stable version). These editors have made it their goal to exclude me from being part of any consensus. How is this not block-worthy? In my days as a Misplaced Pages novice, I was blocked for far less. TBSchemer (talk) 10:40, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you telling me I can create threads with whatever sort of title I want without getting sanctioned for it? So if I were to take that same thread, and replace my username in the inappropriate title with Rjensen, I would not be punished in any way? TBSchemer (talk) 10:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@TBSchemer: My own personal experience editing alongside Rjensen has been similar to your own, so I have great sympathy for your position. Your best strategy is to focus on the content dispute and use the dispute resolution process, such as RfC, etc. Viriditas (talk) 03:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• DD2K has a nasty habit of hounding editors who he reverts (often without discussion) and they then reinstate their edit. I have just posted an article at Jimbo's page addressing some of these concerns and the toxic editing atmosphere here. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 04:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Best of British 2015

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Best of British 2015 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (now blocked) is evidently an abusive sock of the indef-blocked and globally-locked user Denver_Stevenson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). After getting blocked for creating or recreating spampages, this user is spamming and using abusive edit summaries on the user's talk page. Please revoke this user's talk page access. --SoCalSuperEagle (talk) 21:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. Miniapolis 22:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Threat of edit-warring over unnotable external link

An unnotable external link, a 'save our show' Facebook page with 9 likes, has been added to the lede of Odyssey 5. I removed it once, and then a second time mentioning why in the edit summary. It has returned a third time, once again courtesy of User:Pantherslair, with a note on my user page: "The more this information is removed, the more it will be returned." I queried the help chat on how to proceed, and was directed here. DarkProdigy (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Given the threat to edit war on an obviously promotional user page, I would be opting for a block if a warning was given before. I've given such warning, if they do this again I very much support blocking them for this disruptive conduct. Also OP, you neglected to notify them, as mandated by ANI. I've done such too. Tutelary (talk) 21:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

My apologies, I mistakenly placed the notice on User: instead of User talk:. DarkProdigy (talk) 22:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Given the full text of what you quoted, it's obvious the user is trying to generate artificial notability. Just a few edits a year ago plus the recent ones. One more reversion and he should get a lengthy "not like". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me Tutelary, but after viewing the long history of User:DarkProdigy, they have a reputation for sticking their nose into a number of pages very late in the piece and adding information to pages without any scrutiny. Respectfully speaking, User:DarkProdigy is not some self appointed master controller of pages, and their attempt to cause trouble to another user by complaining to the admins, shows the extent that this user will go to, to self legitimize themselves as the "be all and end all" when it comes to adding or deleting information. Others users have just as much right to add information if they feel it is warranted without being denigrated by DarkProdigy with threats of being blocked or banned. Pantherslair (talk) 14:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

You can't add any bloody thing you feel like to a page. It has to qualify. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

To the thousands upon thousands of die hard fans all over the world who have been insisting for over 12 LONG years that Odyssey 5 either be continued or completed, so we can finally have some closure, instead of feeling like we have been shafted, IT BLOODY QUALIFIES TO US!! And considering there are not many portals by which to educate and inform people of this, are you going to show some HEART and COMPASSIONATE for ONE LOUSY LINE or are you just going to put your BOOT down on our THROATS??!! Pantherslair (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

@Pantherslair: "For the thousands of advocates of we need a link to to publicize as we're not getting the attention deserves." See WP:NOTPROMO. --NeilN 14:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive AfD nomination

User:Calum Henderson has attempted (unsuccessfully) to nominated the article Violence against women for deletion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/violenceagainstwomen. As the deletion rational makes clear, this is only to make a point and not a legitimate nomination. I would like to ask an administrator to delete the nomination page and warn the user about WP:POINT. Also I was wondering if the Men's rights movement article probation could be extended to cover Violence against women as the article has been frequently targeted by men's rights activists. Kaldari (talk) 00:28, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I've sort-of-speedy-kept the AfD. Looking into further action. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't like stretching the Men's Rights probation this far, though. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I don't think it's right... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Sevvyan and personal attacks

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User Sevvyan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an account which done persistent poorly referenced and unexplained posts because of NOR claims, breached several time the three-revert rule, and when discussion began at Talk:Boris Kalamanos (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs), the article Boris Kalamanos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) became blocked on 24 February, and since that date can be followed persistent personal attacks on editors at the article talk page, as well after several warnings at his User talk:Sevvyan, he shows no signs of stopping and I think admin intervention is necessary at this point for the discussion to continue in normal environment and reach its eventual conclusion.--Crovata (talk) 00:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

"...account which done persistent poorly..." - And when you tell him and his nationalist buddies to use proper English so we can understand what they mean, they declare it a personal attack?! At any rate, here's my response: (1) can he prove I broke any rules? (2) "persistent personal attacks on editors at the article talk page" probably refers to this discussion in the appropriate Talk. But so what?! Finally, perhaps the reporting editor would like to answer my 3 (now 4) times repeated Q that prompted him to file the report: - How come his profile states an officially non-existing "Serbo-Croat" language as his mother tongue? He is thus obviously a self-declared Serbo-Croat nationalist. By definition, Bosnia doesn't even enter the equation in those nationalists' minds, meaning it shouldn't exist as a nation in equal right as Croatia/Serbia. So how can we then assume that contributions from such minds to this article (on Bosnia's deepest history) are being made in good faith? No way this person is in the right state of mind, let alone should be allowed anywhere near a PC! Thanks. Sevvyan (talk) 01:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Sevvyan, we several times warned you, don't act as a fool, and how to respond when simply doesn't make any sense?--Crovata (talk) 01:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

As I said... Sevvyan (talk) 01:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I join Crovata's report: Sevvyan is not here to build an encyclopedia. His personal attacks reveal his biased approach (, , ). He assumes bad faith . He is even willing to show his own text as a verbatim citation from a reliable source, as it is demonstrated here: , , , . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Borsoka (talk • contribs) 08:11, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

It became apparent during the discussion in the Talk, that Zoupan is a Serb, Borsoka is from either Serb or Croat ethnic minority living in Hungary (per his repeated writing of Klaić's name erroneously as "Nadja" instead of Nada, which only a Serb/Croat would do), and Crovata is a self-declared Serb-Croat nationalist (his user page states the officially non-existent "Serbo-Croat" language as his mother tongue). Since 3-of-3 can't be a miss, therefore there's no need to take seriously anything that such an attacking triplet says on the matter that concerns deepest history of Bosnia - a centuries-long target of the nationalistic ideology the three obviously share (again, 3-of-3, along with awful contribution and terrible behavior in the Talk, seem to prove bad faith by all three). And I see it's only them again here too - a nationalistic orchestra playing the same old, boring tune. Thanks. Sevvyan (talk) 13:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The above message is a new example of his biased and narrow minded approach ("who does not accept my original research is an enemy"). Just for clarification, I am an ethnic Hungarian from Hungary, but in Sevvyan's world everybody is Serbian who reminds him to basic WP principles. Borsoka (talk) 14:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

You type from 46.107.xx.xx network, and your hometown is "famous for its Serbian Orthodox church. Just as in nearby Szentendre, a Serbian community existed in the town since the time of the Ottoman presence in Eastern Europe." It's rather obvious. Sevvyan (talk) 14:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I cannot help you. In your world, everybody who do not accept your OR is an enemy and your enemies are Serbians, even if they are not. I repeat: I am an ethnic Hungarian from Hungary with no Serbian (or Croatian) ancestry. Borsoka (talk) 14:25, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Are we sure that he can contribute to the development of this encyclopedia? Please read his new message here. Borsoka (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Not only that, but now you (Serbs/Croats/Bosniaks/Serbo-Croats) can't contribute to the main country article either. Thanks. Sevvyan (talk) 18:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:POINT, WP:NOTHERE. Sevvyan has been disrupting FAC. He nominated a closed archived page to FAC which was removed,] so he then created a new nomination page for a clearly deficient (and protected) article at FAC (Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina/archive2, which you have to be an admin to see since it was speedy housekeeping deleted on consensus from four former and current FAC and TFA delegates and coordinators), and even after all of that, again re-nommed the old archived page to FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I can't and am not willing to follow and continue the discussion on talk page anymore, with his repeating comments on the article talk page he again made a mess with accusing us for something that simply doesn't make sense, neither with this discussion. Yes, I am from Croatia and personally speak Croatian, but so well understand Bosnian, Serbian, Montenegrin standard forms of Serbo-Croatian because they are so similar that everbody understand's it, and it's no use for me to mention them separatelly in my user page. What's even worse, he is without reasoning, after my review of the sources and information on the medieval personalities I wrote (1) how the thesis of Ban Borić being Boris Kalamanos is plausible, which actually confirms his POV, yet again he continues. I can't work like this anymore. Actually, could part of his comments be removed or be re-arranged in the article talk page because it became a mess and simply can't continue to discuss the subject replying to Borsoka and other editors.--Crovata (talk) 16:23, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Sevvyan is now reverting against consensus - see this and this. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

There's no consensus in any of the related Talks. But it doesn't matter anyway, see this ban. Thanks. Sevvyan (talk) 18:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

And now he's removing my comments from the talk page. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: Sevvyan is a WP:DUCK sock of User:Bosnipedian, who has been perpetuating hoaxes on wiki related to these issues for years. Please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bosnipedian. Best to report, WP:BLOCK and WP:DENY. TDL (talk) 1:46 pm, Today (UTC−5)

Comment This is beyond ridiculous. This highly disruptive user (Sevvyan) has actually violated WP:3RR on ANI now. Not only that, it's done by four times removing other people's comment about the user in this discussion, just like the user removes other users' comment on article talk pages. And the same user has made this bizarre WP:OWN violation . This extremly disruptive user needs to be blocked right away. The 3RR in itself is a red flag, and all the behavior show the user is WP:NOTHERE to contribute.Jeppiz (talk) 18:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment (edit conflict) (Non-administrator comment) Given that Sevvyan seems to be blanking other peoples' comments as Jeppiz pointed out, and as is obvious from the History page, might it best to temporarily suspend his ability to edit talk pages outside of AN/I? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | 9 Adar 5775 19:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

GarryWong (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user's edits is only canvassing other users. This user also canvass users in other wikis. Should this user's edits be reverted?--GZWDer (talk) 05:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Blocked and the edits rolled back, though of course the ping system interferes. Also socking via SpeciallyForYou (talk · contribs) and Spirit of the Lion (talk · contribs). Unclear whether the canvassing is for or against the particular steward candidate, but either way they are clearly WP:NOTHERE. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban for DonaldKronos

DonaldKronos (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

DonaldKronos continually refuses to assume good faith from anyone who doesn't give him his way, and is dedicated to pushing original research against consensus. This can hopefully be remedied by topic banning him from the subject that he has ideological issues with.

• He filled the intro with a bunch of WP:SYNTH WP:OR.
• He edit-warred to restore the material even after consensus was to remove it
• After being warned about edit warring, he immediately responded with hostility, calling the explained reversion by multiple editors "vandalism" (part of WP:TEND), claiming that work that is so despised within the Misplaced Pages community and attributing malevolent obscurantism to everyone who reverted him (while showing serious WP:OWN issues)
• He accusing editors of trying to "deceive the public" (part of WP:TEND)
• All of his discussion with editors (seriously, look for on any talk page, I'm not gonna even both linking) is to push the idea that biological evolution and the various non-biological evolutions are all part of the same unified evolutionary force; demanding that the Evolution page shift its focus accordingly despite consensus that the article (accurately) focuses on biological evolution (part of WP:TEND)
• He has demanded answers to questions that were answered repeatedly and in a variety of ways (WP:IDHT)
• After the above, he received a block for edit warring, promising to leave the site and accusing others of censorship and "HIDING THE TRUTH!" and "DECEPTION" (even calling their actions "an attack against humanity")
• He then engaged in off-site recruitment and tried to defend it and straight up admitted it. (WP:MEAT)
• Even after being blocked he continued to call any reversion of his work vandalism. He also continued to regularly complain about supposed ill-treatment that is completely a matter of him only assuming bad faith from anyone who doesn't give him his way, not actual ill-treatment. And he continued to refer to the Evolution article as starting out "with blatant lies".
• After the block was over he continued to raise the same argument despite the clear consensus from last time that it was redundant, unnecessary, and confused matters (WP:REHASH) with more original research
• He admittedly improved his reaction to opposition for a bit, but still continuing to go under WP:REHASH, but went back to refering to his side as honesty (implying that anyone who doesn't support him is being dishonest), eventually going back to all-caps claims that things are "FALSE" and implications of deception
• "I'm not the one trying to hide anything here" - This is what made me start writing this report. "I'm not the one trying to hide anything here" is a clear implication that others are trying to censor the article, especially in light of his past actions and claims. This is confirmed when he (accidentally in the wrong place) thanked someone who didn't disagree with him for "standing up for honesty", which may as well be a direct accusation toward other editors of malevolent obscurantism.
• He continues to ask for good faith (which he is given, it's competence we're not assuming) while refering to anyone who disagrees with him as "trying to censor" things
• After the thread was closed, he opened up a new one that continued to imply "oppression and censorship" by those who disagreed with him, and called for discussion (only among those who agree with him) "without fear of ridicule" (another false accusation since there was no ridicule in the previous thread).

DonaldKronos has ideological issues relating to evolution that make him tendentious and disruptive, and does not appear capable of evolving out of such behavior. He is incapable of assuming good faith with others on that topic, and does not appear to be capable of evolving that capacity. He should not be allowed near any page relating to any kind of evolution (except maybe Pokemon, I'll leave that for the community to decide). He has made edits elsewhere (granted edits I have not looked into), so I will only ask for a topic ban from topics relating to any type of evolution (Pokemon excluded, unless the community feels that too is also necessary). I am open to other options so long as they keep him away from Evolution (disambiguation) and the articles it links to. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Support time-limited topic ban from evolution and evolution-rated pages (not just articles), broadly construed. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support People maintaining the articles need a break. I try to monitor the topic but this user's promotion of something is very unhelpful—see Talk:Evolution#Suggestion for Improved Accuracy and Talk:Evolution (disambiguation)#Suggestion for Increased Accuracy. Johnuniq (talk) 06:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Support While DonaldKronos can be trusted to make constructive or at least good intentioned edits, his incessant siege mentality towards people whom he has failed to persuade makes all attempts at discussion with him monumentally difficult, if not entirely impossible. So, yes, a topic-ban of all evolution-related pages should be placed on him until he can grow up.--Mr Fink (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Two simple questions. 1. Is the evolution of Misplaced Pages important, unimportant, or non-occuring? 2. Is Misplaced Pages biological?

No need to ban me. I saw this coming long time ago. Anyone who voices concerns in certain areas will be systematically intimidated, ridiculed, and eventually banned. I've been watching for longer than I have been trying to help here. Obviously, things are not going to get better here any time soon, and I'm not in the mood for more of the same treatment. What I have had to say with regard to the evolution page was not my main issue. The issue is that people who could be beneficial to the evolution of Misplaced Pages are being strongly discouraged from doing so, and I think it's a shame that so many are afraid to speak up. So I have spoken up, because I felt that someone had to. Not all evolution is biological evolution, and I hope those who can not accept that fact will some day learn to allow Misplaced Pages to evolve in spite of their inability to see it.

take care.

DonaldKronos (talk) 07:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Given what you've said in the past, I do not believe you're really going to leave. Hell, even now, you're not even taking into account what others say except where it suits you.

As always, you provide no source that explicitly ties biological evolution and the different kinds of non-biological evolution into some overall Evolutionary force, even when that's not what the discussion is about. Even now you make lying accusations of intimidation and ridicule toward good-faith editors who have been stern but civil. Those people who started to agree with you? Notice that I didn't list them, and notice that no one is asking for them to be topic banned either. You just keep assuming malevolence, and give us no reason to believe that you have the capacity to assume good faith or collaborate. -- That is the problem here. That behavior is why you are being topic banned, so you can find some subject that you're not religiously biased about and learn to actually collaborate.

Ian.thomson (talk) 07:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say I'm going to leave. I simply feel that I'm metaphorically banging my head against a wall trying to make the evolution page and its disambiguation page start with a non-deceptive definition... and I don't like the feeling.

By the way, I have read through part of the list of accusations against me. While there is a hint of truth in some of them, I can't say the same for most.

I do not plan to read the rest of them, because I find it painful, but I would encourage anyone considering them to look carefully at the evidence, and consider carefully why I have tried so hard to save Misplaced Pages from stagnating and perpetuating false statements. I have dealt with too much dishonesty here. Perhaps its best for my sake if I learn to ignore it as so many other people have managed to do.

This project (Misplaced Pages) will likely long outlive every one of us here today. I care about what it may bring into our distant future. It is an ambassador of a sort, and I hope it will represent us in a good light, rather than merely highlighting our flaws.

Do as you see fit.

DonaldKronos (talk) 07:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, thanks to anyone who has heard me out.

DonaldKronos (talk) 07:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

If you are not going to leave, then there is a need for a topic ban (you will be allowed to edit other articles, just not those relating to evolution).

While most editors here do believe that this encyclopedia serves the greater good and is an achievement for humanity, that high talk is ultimately a red herring with no bearing on your behavior. We assume good faith from you, just not competence. As many have explained to you over and over, your regular implications that editors who disagree with you are "perpetuating false statements," and trying to make the site highlight humanity's flaws are a sign that you do not believe that people who disagree with you are trying to help (i.e. that you do not assume good faith from others). Your attempts to try and justify your actions sound just like every other religiously biased editor who thinks that their faith in some lofty truth trumps the requirement for sources or consensus. Personal beliefs are fine, but quit trying to force those beliefs into the articles. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. There may indeed be a valid subject in the wider sense of the concept of evolution, but Misplaced Pages is not the place to pioneer it. A Misplaced Pages article would first require the wider concept to be already established and written about in multiple reliable sources (and for the word "evolution" to be primarily associated with that wider concept), and I'm not seeing that in the contested edits here. What I am seeing is the editor using disparate sources to synthesize the wider concept, and that really is not something that an encyclopedia should be doing. It's an easy mistake to make and in itself would not warrant a topic ban, but when it comes to tendentiously pushing one's viewpoint against Misplaced Pages's WP:SYNTH and WP:OR rules and against consensus (and attacking and denigrating those who disagree), then it crosses a line. The consensus is that Misplaced Pages's Evolution article should be about biological evolution (as discovered by Darwin and Wallace and developed by biologists since), and the only way to change the article into something else would be to achieve a new consensus through discussion. Squinge (talk) 11:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This user has become, well actually has pretty much been since he arrived at the evolution page, a massive time sink. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from evolution and evolution-rated pages , broadly construed. Here is some advice for DonaldKronos based upon my own experience; There are a few topics on Misplaced Pages that I care deeply about. I avoid those topics, because I have made a conscious choice that I am here to build an encyclopedia, not promote my personal point of view no matter how right I think I am. Misplaced Pages will be doing you a favor by topic-banning you from evolution topics. If you spend more time in areas where you don't care so deeply, you will find yourself again and again dealing with editors who strongly believe that the page should contain Truth instead of reporting what is in reliable sources. As you get into the habit of following the sources no matter where they lead, you will prepare yourself for the day when you can request that the topic ban be lifted and start making constructive changes to evolution pages that nobody disputes -- because they are properly sourced. I know it must feel like we are all ganging up on you, but we have a good reason. By following the sources, editors with opposing points of view can work together collaboratively and build an encyclopedia -- a skill which you currently lack. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)