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Eliza Jane Scovill

Eliza Jane Scovill was a child who died of AIDS-like symptoms. The mother, who's an AIDS denialist, hired Mohammed Al Bayati to perform an autopsy. Al Bayati concluded that Eliza didn't die of AIDS, but something else. The dispute arises over whether Al Bayati's qualifications should be listed in the article. I think it violates OR, specifically Synthesis. In particular the qualifications being on the page implies that Al Bayati is not qualified to do the autopsy. Either the sources linked made this assertion (Al Bayati not qualified to do the autopsy) or they did not. If the sources did make the assertion, then the text is imperfect since it does not explicitly make the statement. If the sources did not make this assertion, then the text constitutes Synthesis. Against that Yobol thinks it provides vital context and should be included, and that there is nothing wrong with providing the facts for the reader to draw his or her own conclusions.

Need help on this one. We've come to rather a dead end on the talk page. Banedon (talk) 02:00, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Assuming you have sources that are individually reliable for claims A and B

Synthesis:

• • A, therefore B.
  • A because B.
  • A; however, B.

Not synthesis:

• • A. B.
  • A and B.

Rhoark (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Well that's the textbook definition. Yobol and I clearly disagree with that definition as applied to the article, which is why there's a dispute. Banedon (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Given that the material in question falls under the "Not Synthesis" rubric above, it is clear that it is in fact not synthesis. Yobol (talk) 22:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I posted an RfC for this topic. Please see Talk:Eliza_Jane_Scovill#RfC. Banedon (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

AJ Lee#In wrestling

The situation stems on me citing a song AJ Lee used in 2011 for the list of songs the subject used as an "entrance theme", or a song used while the subject walks out to before she performs. prefall (talk · contribs) reverted my edit and notes that the source I used had the song performed on it, but did not explicitly list the title or artist of the song. If I linked another source that plays the song and states what the artist and title is, would that count as WP:SYNTH? --w 00:51, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Did the homelessness cause the deaths?

There is a dispute in 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict regarding the issue of people (including babies) dying in the cold. We have discussed at the talk page but as we are stuck, I am asking here for comments. This is what I first inserted:

"As of 1 February 2015, only US$125 million of the $2.7 billion had been paid out, leaving tens of thousands of Gazans still homeless. At least four people (including three babies) were frozen to death in the cold."

It was sourced to this article in Swedish by Helsingborgs Dagblad. The following is a translation made by me about the two sentences regarding homeless Gazans and people dying in the cold:

This means that tens of thousands Gazans are still homeless, and at least four people, whereof three babies, have been frozen to death during the last month's winter cold.

UNRWA have also said this:

"This is a tremendous achievement; it is also wholly insufficient. It is easy to look at these numbers and lose sight of the fact that we are talking about thousands of families who continue to suffer through this cold winter with inadequate shelter. People are literally sleeping amongst the rubble, children have died of hypothermia," Turner added."

Monopoly31121993 and WarKosign have said that the claim is not supported by the source, with the first one saying "Neither of those quotes says what WarKosign has pointed out ("an infant died of cold after their house was damaged/destroyed in the recent conflict") so it's still OR" and the second one saying, amongst other things, "As far as I can tell no source explicitly connects the freezing to death to the buildings being damaged in the fighting. They mention the damage and that some families remained homeless so is a very reasonable conclusion that a reader can draw, but I don't think it was ever stated explicitly that "an infant died of cold after their house was damaged/destroyed in the recent conflict". They even mention infants dying in Lebanon, certainly it was not connected to the conflict".

I and The Magnificent Clean-keeper have said that the claim is supported by the source. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: For the Nth time, I do not say that it's OR or SYNTH and do not object to including it.

I pointed that the source does not explicitly say that homelessness caused hypothermia, it is implied by the grouping of the sentences. The phrase that you added to the article does the same, so it is OK. “WarKosign” 18:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it was the best available venue to write in.

The source does say it's because the homelessness. It is not something I am interpreting myself but what they are stating. If you are not against the wording I used, that's good. --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Your translation is a compound sentence that consists of two independent clauses: "This means that tens of thousands Gazans are still homeless." and "At least four people, whereof three babies, have been frozen to death during the last month's winter cold."

Turner's quote does the same: "People are literally sleeping amongst the rubble, children have died of hypothermia" - it is implied that the first part causes the second, but it is never stated explicitly. “WarKosign” 20:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it's clear that they connect it to the homelessness and destruction of homes. Here is a statement by one from UNICEF: "Four infants died from complications caused by the bitter cold in Gaza in January: four-month-old Rahaf, one-month-old Adel, three-month-old Salma and 18-month-old Fadi. All were from families whose houses were destroyed during the last conflict and were living in extremely dire conditions". --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It's another example of the same - this source does not say explicitly that the destruction of the houses was the reason they died, it lets the reader draw this conclusion. “WarKosign” 21:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

You can have a look here, compare Compounding Sentences ("one thing simply comes after another and the logical relationship between the ideas is not always evident or important") and Subordinating One Clause to Another ("subordinating one clause to another establishes a more complex relationship between ideas, showing that one idea depends on another in some way: a chronological development, a cause-and-effect relationship, a conditional relationship, etc."). “WarKosign” 09:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

• @WarKosign. Does your comment above mean you're within the consensus that the original content can be re-added? Just want to make clear I haven't misunderstood your statement.TMCk (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

@The Magnificent Clean-keeper: I do not object to including the content above or any other content unless it adds explicit causality not present in the source.“WarKosign” 19:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

IRISZOOM, you forgot to mention the fact that I objected to quoting the Swedish source on EN Misplaced Pages but it doesn't matter if you're going to use Al Jazeera English's article. How about writing "In February 2015, Al Jazeera reported that four infants from families living in Gaza whose houses were destroyed during the war died from complications caused by cold whether in January." I think this is NPOV.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 10:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow, also, I suggest everyone read that article. It's about how children has died because they got burned trying to keep warm (or more likely, since they were infants, someone else accidentally burned them). The objective folks at Al Jazeera sensationalized it by titling the article "Babies die in Gaza due to the resource siege" but no one actually says that and all the article discusses is how children have died from burns that they received as they tried to stay warm.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 10:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

How dare you say something may not be Israel's fault. “WarKosign” 10:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

And I have explained to you that it's acceptable to use a Swedish source, Monopoly31121993, so you were wrong on this. I don't know why you keep saying we can use other sources when this one is acceptable.

The official from UNICEF does say to Al Jazeera that the destruction of homes led later to complications they later died of. We also got other reports about such complications, such as an official from UNWRA. I repeat, there is no doubt we can use Helsingborgs Dagblad's report and the claim they made does not seem odd considering other reports similiar things. The quote in Al Jazeera can certainly be used but that does not mean we can't use the one from Helsingborgs Dagblad.

I see that you now have removed it again and replaced it with the report from AJ. Why did you later remove from your own edit that it was four infants and that complications caused by the cold was the reason? You replaced it with "died from fire accidents caused by improper heating". But UNICEF does not say so. Read the sentence above that quote: "Even as open fires and poor electrics pose a risk for displaced families, icy and damp conditions continue to claim young victims of hypothermia" and the quote by Catherine Weibel from UNICEF. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources in other languages are allowed, but English is preferable so as many editors as possible could review them. “WarKosign” 14:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

IRISZOOM , I used the source you gave here. What's the problem? And yes, I changed it after I actually had read it and realized it wasn't saying exactly what you claimed, it was saying something different.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@Monopoly31121993: Look carefully, it supports the deaths of hypothermia as well. “WarKosign” 18:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that you continue say that the claim is not there. Read my last answer here about the quote from a UNICEF official. They do talk about the cold. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I think this better represents what is in the source. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

If you google gaza babies dying cold you´ll find lots of sources, including this Ynet article, and this Maan.news: "A Palestinian infant fell ill and died due to severe cold in Khan Younis in the southern Gaza Strip on Friday" "Her family reportedly continued living in their damaged home despite the destruction. " Huldra (talk) 23:45, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are many articles on that. I linked to that article by Ynetnews in the talk page. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Read the ynetnews article carefully. It doesn't imply any connection between damage to the buildings and the hypothermia; it is mentioned but the stated reasons for deaths are the extreme weather and lack of fuel for the power station. “WarKosign” 07:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Since this entire discussion relates to your reading of one edited quote from Al Jazeera I have simply added the exact quote and the name and title of the person who gave it to the article. It reads as follows: In late February 2015, Al Jazeera quoted Catherine Weibel, UNICEF's Communication Chief in Jerusalem, who said "Four infants died from complications caused by the bitter cold in Gaza in January... All were from families whose houses were destroyed during the last conflict and were living in extremely dire conditions."Monopoly31121993 (talk) 13:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, yes, some sources does not state it directly but those who have been in the article and others have done it.

Monopoly31121993, I think the wording I used match what the article in Al Jazeera says but if you want to use a quote, okay then. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

OR policy is not a tool for censorious campaigns against the possibility a reader could draw their own conclusions. All that matters is what the article says, not what the reader might think. Rhoark (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Synthesis" argument used to reject any mention of a common phrase

The dispute is regarding Charlie Hebdo issue No. 1178. This is the "survivor's issue" which was (correctly, IMO) retitled to something more neutral.

The problem began with an editor who claims that absolutely no use of the phrase "survivor's issue" is to be permitted. I have pointed out that it has been used by a large number of reputable sources. (This point is not in dispute.) My original edit said "also known as the survivor's issue", but I was and am open to any rephrasing. I don't really care where the mention is in the article. The point is, a lot of people and sources are using this as a alternative title or synonym for issue No. 1178 and so it bears mentioning somewhere.

So, this dispute is NOT about: retitling the article, making any claims about the prevalence of the phrase "survivor's issue", inserting the phrase "survivor's issue" into any particular place or in any particular way, inserting any bias or emotional or original content into the article in any way, a particular fixation on preceding words such as "known as". (If there is a better way of prefacing that phrase--"unofficially known as", "sometimes known as", etc.--that is fine, but other editors involved in the dispute have not proposed any that they would deem acceptable.)

This is simply about being able to use a phrase that many reliable sources use in some fashion. ANY fashion.

The synthesis argument being used to argue against this: apparently, it's like like Simon Says. To use a phrase you have to find a source referring to another source using the phrase--otherwise, it's synthesis . It is not enough that multiple reliable sources are using a particular phrase to identify a particular thing--we must have a reliable source that identifies a reliable source that is identifying a particular thing with a particular phrase. In this particular case, the argument is that I can't say "also known as the survivor's issue" because no source contains that exact quote.

I believe this is absurd on its face.

First off, no one has suggested the need for a source that says the magazine in question "is known as issue No. 1178". Meta-sources are only required for certain things, it seems.

Also, Misplaced Pages is more than a collection of literally verbatim quotes from other sources. The prohibition on synthesis does not forbid all forms of paraphrasing or editing. If it did, all of the articles on the front page right now would have to be purged of at least 90% of their content.

Analogy: it is akin to removing the phrase "also known as salt" from the top of the sodium chloride page if it turned out all of the sources only directly referred to sodium chloride as salt (or vice versa) and did not contain a literal phrase along the lines of "...known as salt".

Synthesis is not a synonym for paraphrasing or summarizing. Synthesis should not and cannot be used to ban a widely used phrase from an article on the basis that no meta-source can be found that analyzes or comments on other sources' use of that phrase.

Am I wrong?

It only works in practice (talk) 22:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

And let's be really, extra clear on something: there's a lot of text on the talk page about "generally" and "widely" that has muddied the issue. That's not the dispute, and that wasn't in my original edit. This is about banning any mention of the phrase "survivor's issue" on the sole basis that the sources don't appear to self-referentially talk about the usage of the term "survivor's issue". It only works in practice (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

There is one further point to consider: implicit labeling. If I point at something and say "ball", the very obvious implicit statement I am making is "that thing is known as a ball." Similarly, usage of the phrase "survivor's issue" when clearly referring to Charlie Hebdo issue No. 1178 contains a very clear implicit "is known as (at least to me)".

However, regardless of this point and regardless of the article in question... I think the broader issue of what synthesis actually is (and isn't) needs to be addressed and clarified. It only works in practice (talk) 23:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi there, It only works in practice. Using the phrase "best known for" is something editors don't like in BLP articles. It's best to stick to facts. Provided you word your contribution carefully, you should be all right. This report from Thursday's "Daily Telegraph", published just across the English Channel from France, may be of interest.

Charlie Hebdo back on the streets

The French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo returned to newsstands yesterday with the words "We're back!" and a cartoon depicting the Pope, a jihadist and the French far - right leader Marine Le Pen as a pack of enraged animals.

The magazine took a break from weekly publishing after rushing out a "survivors' issue" a week after the Jan 7 jihadist attack on its Paris office in which 123 people were killed. The new issue is due to have a print run of 2.5 million and will be published as far afield as the United States. Before the attack the normal print run was 60,000. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 19:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

This is paraphrasing or contextualizing - totally standard, benign, and necessary elements of editorial discretion. WP:NOTOR Rhoark (talk) 22:21, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Calendar synthesis?

In this edit User:156.61.250.250 cites some early 20th century news stories and concludes "This is a paradox, since a church or country cannot change to the Gregorian calendar twice (unless it has stopped using it in the intervening period)." The editor also concludes "Where a source says that a church or country adopted a certain calendar it is not necessarily correct." I suggest these conclusions constitute synthesis. Furthermore, the sources are inappropriate; news stories are known to often be inaccurate and Misplaced Pages article should rely on secondary sources for events long past. Finally, instruction in how to use sources is not suitable material for a Misplaced Pages article, even if the instructions were correct. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with synthesis, which is conflating statements to make a claim which neither of the statements makes. Jc3s5h says we should use secondary sources - which newspapers are. Since he says newspapers are inaccurate, it is appropriate to use the primary sources. WP:RS says that "the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors" and that the more checking is done of what is reported in secondary sources the better it will be. I have explained this in

For 12 years from 1700 Sweden used a modified Julian calendar, and adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1753.

The only way to confirm information regarding a change of calendar is to examine the relevant legislation. (See Gregorian calendar#Gregorian reform). An authoritative source states that Russia changed on 31 January/14 February 1918 and Greece on 10/24 March 1924.

Areas of Russia not under Bolshevik control at the start of 1918 changed on different dates. The date given for Greece is actually the date that the Greek Orthodox Church adopted the Revised Julian calendar. For civil purposes, Greece changed on 15 February/1 March 1923.

In the twentieth century the Roman Breviary, the most authoritative source apart from the Papal Bull, stated that if the Epact is 25 and the Sunday Letter is C Easter Sunday is 25 April. It may still say that, and it is wrong. Some calendars are so alike that it is difficult to tell them apart. The Gregorian and Revised Julian dates are currently identical. For Muslims, the dates in the Turkish Islamic calendar, Umm - al - Qura calendar of Saudi Arabia and tabular Islamic calendar may be the same but they have different rules. There are a number of variations of the tabular calendar.

and Jc3s5h has raised no objection. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

References

1. "Babies die in Gaza due to the resource siege". Al Jazeera. 24 February 2015.
2. Nautical almanac offices of the United Kingdom and United States, Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Ephemeris and the American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac (London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office, 1961), pp. 413 - 416.
3. See the summary at Toke Nørby, The Perpetual Calendar..
4. See Social Security Administration publication GN 00307.180 - Gregorian/Julian calendar.

Jc3s5h has tried this trick before. I removed a quote from an authoritative source that he had inserted into Gregorian calendar because mathematically the information could not be correct. Jc3s5h restored it because in his view if it was in a reliable source it should be included. I then had to ferret round for a source which said the information was incorrect before I could remove it again. That's the old "Verifiability not truth" canard which was thrown out years ago. To preserve our reputation we can and must warn readers that authoritative sources cannot be relied upon if that is the case. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It's true that the disputed section "Adoption paradox" is not synthesis, but at the same time it's not really about the Gregorian calendar either - rather, the section discusses the accuracy of sources, an issue which is not limited to calendars. As such, it is not suitable for the article in question. Arcorann (talk) 12:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a sub - set of the whole. By definition, what is relevant to the whole is relevant to the sub - set also. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 13:17, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

After rereading the disputed section, I retract my statement about the section not being synthesis. Arcorann (talk) 09:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

It's obviously synthesis, because it is based upon a particular interpretation laid upon a set of newspaper reports. Simply from the excerpts provided it is unclear exactly what happened other than that the Turks went off the Islamic calendar and (eventually, perhaps immediately) adopted the Gregorian. After all that the point being argued is unclear. Mangoe (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The last paragraph is absolutely synthesis - your definition is flawed. If reliable sources come to the same conclusion you do in that last paragraph, then cite them. Otherwise, the text is original research. In addition, you either or unknowledgable or wikilawyering when you stated in this diff that "The majority of editors have not said this is synthesis". Consensus is not based on vote counts, and no one supports your edit except you. Finally, I know you are evading, and you know you are evading. That you are obsessed with these articles is OK, if only you could follow WP:3RR, WP:NPA, WP:OR, and WP:RS. You are heading down the rabbit hole again. JoeSperrazza (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Evading? You seem to make a habit of casting unfounded aspersions and editing the SPI archive, something which is not done. Stop leaving stupid messages on my talk page. At least you accept the section is kosher (oksher?) apart from the last paragraph, which you are arguing about. I was unaware of Mangoe’s post when I made the change.

The last paragraph contains five sentences:

This is a paradox, since a church or country cannot change to the Gregorian calendar twice (unless it has stopped using it in the intervening period).

A self – evident truth.

Words mean different things to different people.

I don’t think anyone would dispute that. The word rapariga in European Portuguese means simply a girl. In Brazilian Portuguese it has a pejorative meaning.

Some legislation is clarification of previous legislation after people have been arguing about what it means.

A good example is the Calendar (New Style) Act (1751), which clarified the Calendar (New Style) Act (1750).

The Turkish legislation of 1917 and 1925 does not mention the Gregorian calendar.

You can verify that by reading the statutes (or get a Turkish speaker to do it for you)

What I don’t understand about Misplaced Pages is why some editors like to make readers jump through hoops to get information – a quick journey to the law library and the job is done, but some editors insist that readers must wade through stacks of books in the hope of finding one that contains the information they seek.

Where a source says that a church or country adopted a certain calendar it is not necessarily correct.

Another self – evident truth. Misplaced Pages guidelines point out that there is no such thing as an infallible source. There is one possible exception (not mentioned in Misplaced Pages guidelines), the Pope speaking ‘’ex cathedra’’, but that does not apply here.

Replying to Mangoe, the statement does not rely on any interpretation of news reports. As I say above, it is a self – evident truth. It’s like saying “If you pour water into a bucket which has a hole in it the water will flow out”. No source is required to demonstrate the truth of that. The sequence of events is

1. A reliable source reports that the Turkish parliament has approved legislation introducing the Gregorian calendar.

2. The legislation passes.

3. A reliable source (nine years later) reports that the Turkish parliament has approved legislation introducing the Gregorian calendar.

The point of the section is to alert readers to the fact that secondary sources can and do give misinformation on calendar issues, and it is for that reason that some people (Jc3s5h for example) like to cover their backs by getting it straight from the horse’s mouth. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 11:11, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

And that's the problem... If you want to alert readers to the fact that secondary sources can and do give misinformation on calendar issues, you need to find a source that directly notes this fact. Without such a source, stating that fact is Original Research. Furthermore, the concision that the sequence of events create a paradox is OR... it is based on your own analysis of the sources. In order to avoid OR, you need a source that takes the same sequence of events, and reaches the same conclusion (that they create a paradox). It does not matter whether the logic of your analysis is accurate or not. Our policy is that you can't take bits of information and state a conclusion... unless a source has taken those same bits of information and stated the same conclusion first. It does not matter how "self-evident" the conclusion is... if a source does not state it, we can't state it in Misplaced Pages... even if the conclusion is absolutely accurate and true.

(By the way... if you poor water into a bucket which has a hole in it, the water may not actually flow out... It will only do so if the hole is below the level of the water. A bucket with a hole near it's rim will hold water quite well.) Blueboar (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The highlighted edit is an unacceptable violation of WP:NOR. Whether it is SYNTH or not, I don't think matters. The editor in question has noticed what he/she thinks is a contradiction between sources and wants to write about it in the article. However, it is only that editor's opinion that there is a contradiction. The history of Turkey between 1917 and 1925, that included a war, a revolution, and the declaration of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, makes it perfectly possible that a decision made by one government in 1925 could be similar to one made by a totally different government in 1917. As well as that, the sources do not clearly indicate that the decision was the same; there is talk in the sources of replacing the Muslim calendar by the Gregorian one, as well as changing the date of Easter from the Julian to the Gregorian calendars, and The Times (of London), Oct 26, 1925, said that in finance the Gregorian calendar would replace a solar calendar whose dates were not aligned with either the Julian or Gregorian calendars. The full story is obviously quite complex, which is exactly why we need a source written by someone who has examined the evidence properly. Finally, advice like "Where a source says that a church or country adopted a certain calendar it is not necessarily correct." is true but doesn't belong in an article; put it on the talk page. Zero 01:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no original research. Everything in the section is reported in the sources. It is clear that a decision made by one government can be similar to a decision made by another government. However, once a law is passed it remains in force until it is repealed. That is so elementary that no law book would bother to mention it - same as no editor is required to source the statement "the earth goes round the sun."

If there is an objection to stating the obvious, then the article can simply quote the sources. I think that would be a pity, because it leaves it to the reader to pick up the inconsistency, which he or she may fail to do.

The question of changing the date of Easter is nothing to do with it. By 1917 the Ottoman Empire had broken up, or was in the process of doing so. Under the millet system the various minorities (such as the Christians) had autonomy of religion. It's more than "talk in the sources of replacing the Muslim calendar by the Gregorian one". They say it was done, on two separate occasions nine years apart, which is legally impossible.

From the beginning of Islam there was a solar calendar which ran concurrently with the lunar one. The epoch was AD 632, and all years had 365 days (no leap years).

For the benefit of editors who might want to weigh in, here are the sources:

The Times, 5 January 1916, p. 7

The Turkish Government has prepared a Bill introducing the Gregorian calendar for the civil year. The financial year will begin on March 14. The ecclesiastical year will remain lunar.

The Times, 22 March 1916, p. 7

It is reported from Constantinople that the Bill providing for the introduction of the Gregrian calendar in the Ottoman Empire cannot come into force in the present financial year.

The Times, 23 March 1916, p. 7

The Turkish Parliament not having approved the project, the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar has been postponed sine die.

The Times, 29 March 1916, p. 7

GREGORIAN CALENDAR FOR BULGARIA

(FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT IN THE BALKAN PENINSULA.)

MARCH 26

The substitution of the Gregorian or Western Calendar for the Julian or Eastern has been voted by the Bulgarian Chamber. The adoption of this change, which has long been delayed on account of the opposition of the Russian Hierarchy, is naturally a demonstration against Russia, and will be generally attributed to a desire to widen the chasm separating the two States.

It is true that, some years ago, shortly before the difference between the calendars had increased from 12 to 13 days, a movement was set on foot in Bulgaria and elsewhere for a change from the Old Style to the New, and the Russophil Stoiloff Cabinet favoured it. But the Russian Holy Synod, under the influence of M. Pobiedonostzeff, then refused to countenance the idea and none of the Balkan States ventured to adopt the reform. A little later the Holy Synod relented so far as to announce the forthcoming issue of a new calendar of its own preparation.

New York Times, 31 January 1917

TURKEY CHANGES CALENDAR

Mohammedan Form Officially Replaced by the Gregorian.

AMSTERDAM, Jan. 30, (via London.)

-A Constantinople dispatch to Reuter's says that the Turkish Parliament, on the recommendation of the Government, has formally adopted the Gregorian calendar.

The Mohammedan calendar, used up to the present in Turkey, was based on the changes of the moon and consisted of twelve lunar months commencing in the Gregorian July.

The Times, 26 October 1925, p. 13

THE CALENDAR IN TURKEY

(FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.)

CONSTANTINOPLE, OCT. 25

The Commission for the reform of the calendar has decided in favour of the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar, and a Bill for the adoption of the Christian Era will shortly be laid before the Grand National Assembly.

• • Hitherto the Moslem Calendar, which is lunar, has been in force in Turkey except for purposes of finance, for which a solar year with an official date which corresponded neither with the Gregorian, Julian, nor Moslem Era was adopted some years ago.

New York Times, 26 October 1925

WESTERN TIME FOR TURKEY

Angora Commission Adopts Gregorian Calendar and 24 - Hour Clock.

ANGORA, Turkey, Oct. 25 (AP) - Another step toward Western ideas was taken today when a special Government commission decided in favour of the adoption of the Gregorian calendar. The twenty four hour clock will also be introduced.

New York Times, December 6, 1925

Turkey Plans Soon to Adopt Calendar of Christian Era

ANGORA, Dec. 5 (AP). - Following the lead of Rumania, Bulgaria and other Balkan countries, Turkey probably will soon adopt the Christian era and the Gregorian calendar as mediums for measuring time.

A special Parliamentary commission has made a study of the Gregorian calendar with a view to fitting it to Turkish history and current events, and has unanimously recommended its adoption to the National Assembly.

If the Assembly ratifies it immediately, next year will be 1926 instead of 1342. The present Turkish calendar dates from the first day of the month preceding the flight of Mahomet from Mecca to Medina, which would correspond to July 15, 622 A.D.

Army Ranger Wing

The Army Ranger Wing is a unit of the Irish military. Myself and User:IrishSpook are in dispute at Talk:Army_Ranger_Wing#Synthesis_in_article about the size of the unit. There are presently two sources referring to the size of the unit. One source states "Information on the numerical strength of the Army Ranger Wing and the identity of its personnel is restricted but it's known the unit has a fluctuating strength of about 150.", while the other states "the Army Ranger Wing, has increased in strength by almost one-third ... The 30pc increase in numbers pushes the overall strength of the Wing to well over a hundred". I believe that both estimates should be included, but separately.

IrishSpook wishes to combine the two, stating "the strength of the unit in 2013 was over 150 members, in January 2014 the manpower of the Army Ranger Wing saw an increase of one-third (1/3) or 33.3%. This gives the unit a strength of up to 200 personnel." This reasoning looks like typical synthesis to me. IrishSpook thinks they can sidestep synthesis by simply removing the references, arguing "if all the references are removed it's no longer synthesis" "no longer reffed, can't argue synthesis now mate" "150 or 200 isn't original research it was "synthesis", can't be so if there's no refs" "there is no synthesis if there isn't references" etc. etc. IrishSpook has also that the unit size not being 150 is "something I know personally." We are getting absolutely nowhere talking to each other, and I don't want to get blocked for edit warring with them. Does anyone have any input? 79.97.226.247 (talk) 18:41, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Donors Trust and Franklin Center

There is a dispute at Donors Trust. Donors Capital Fund, and Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity over whether this Guardian source can be used to say that DT and DCF granted US$6.3 million to the Franklin Center for a media campaign against wind and solar power and to oppose state-level responses to sea level rise. There is no dispute about the reliability of the source. The question is whether this is an over-interpretation of the source per WP:SYNTH. I'm pinging those who have weighed in: HughD, Arthur Rubin, and Champaign Supernova. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:37, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The source does not say that $6.3 million was used for an anti-solar/wind media campaign. In fact, closely reading the article gives rise to the obvious conclusion that this was not all used for "a campaign against wind and solar", in fact there is no way in the ref to know how much (if any) way earmarked for such a campaign. This looks like a clear WP:OR problem. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:45, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The verbatim lede from the source, included in the ref at Donors Trust for convenience (since deleted): "Conservatives used a pair of secretive trusts to fund a media campaign against windfarms and solar projects, and to block state agencies from planning for future sea-level rise, the Guardian has learned." Hugh (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The title of the source: "Media campaign against windfarms funded by anonymous conservatives." Hugh (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Rough paraphrase of the source as used in Donors Trust: "Donors Trust and Donors Capital Fund granted US$6.3 million to the Franklin Center for a media campaign against wind and solar power and to oppose state-level responses to sea level rise." Hugh (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Rough paraphrase" is the very problem, i.e. should we be sourcing to "rough paraphrases" or do we require sources to say things explicitly. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Here the intention was merely to distinguish from close paraphrase. Hugh (talk) 21:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH is a policy on WP editors, not a requirement on the authors and editors of our reliable sources. In this case the author and editor of what is conceded to be a reliable source of the highest rank, writing in plain English, agree on the proposed content. That is what we hope our investigative journalist will do on a good day. Synth if any is in our sources, where it belongs, not a WP editor. This one is easy: no synth, no OR. Hugh (talk) 21:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

You're missing the other side's argument. The Guardian published X. You want to include in our article Y. The question is whether X and Y are close enough (or whether Y logically follows from X) such that we are allowed to do this. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

No inference of any kind is necessary to accept this content, just a reading comprehension level sufficient to understand The Guardian, which is pretty middling. The proposed content is a reasonable paraphrase of a very reliable source. No conclusions are drawn. No synth, no OR. Hugh (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the insult. You have an interesting approach to consensus building. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Pinging editors who have made substantial edits to Donors Trust: NickCT, Cwobeel. Hugh (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

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