Misplaced Pages

Warning

It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on a biased choice of users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Genetically modified food controversies. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Misplaced Pages's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Thank you.

difs:

• 08:51, 13 February 2015 dif
• 08:54, 13 February 2015 dif
• 09:02, 13 February 2015 dif
• 09:08, 13 February 2015 dif

Please stop canvassing. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:34, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

• As a canvassed party, whose response thus far has been only to supply information, and who furthermore watches the pages in question anyway, groupuscule must suggest that this "Warning" comes across as unnecessary and unduly threatening. David Tornheim posted on the pages of four users, all of whom are already deeply involved in the exact discussion at hand. On a related note: If the talk pages for articles about genetically engineered food weren't Archived so often, there might be better continuity of discussion on those pages, themselves, and the decentralized communication on people's talk pages might not seem as necessary. ☮ groupuscule (talk) 15:33, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I would be happy to discuss archiving on any of the relevant aticle's Talk pages. With regard to canvassing, it is a breach of WP's norms. None of the users who were canvassed have been involved in the articles for quite some time now; groupuscule's (you are really going third person now! :)) description of them as "deeply involved in the exact discussion at hand" has not been true for a long time now, and the canvassing is a clear effort to revive old disputes that were settled a long time ago by contacting people who argued for the kinds of changes that David wants to make now. My response carefully follows the recommendations in the guideline:

"The most effective response to quite recent, clearly disruptive canvassing is to politely request that the user(s) responsible for the canvassing stop posting notices, possibly using {{subst:Uw-canvass}} on their talk page. If they continue, they may be reported to the administrators' noticeboard, which may result in their being blocked from editing. Users with a prior history of disruptive canvassing, which they have previously been asked to discontinue, may be blocked immediately without further warning, if such an action is deemed to be necessary."

That is what I have done. And if David continues, I will take the next steps, as described in the guideline. Jytdog (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

This dif is further canvassing, in my eyes. I am bringing you to ANI. You will receive a notice when I am done writing it up. Jytdog (talk) 23:24, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Reminder

There's a certain unnamed bully who tends to be very uncivil and drives editors away from topics. You may or may not have run into him. Strangely, he's never been blocked, which shows that some editors are very good at manipulating and gaming the Misplaced Pages system to get what they want, mostly by kissing up to the right people and spreading false rumours about others they dislike. Unfortunately, you may have become the latest target of this bully. If this is true, then you must be very careful to be calm and civil in your replies, because this bully will attempt to game the system to get you blocked. Take care. Viriditas (talk) 02:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

hmmm] Jytdog (talk) 03:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

although with the spooky conspiratorial tone, this is more appropriate. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

about your note on gandy's page

It is strange that you are disappointed that no one walked you through the history. Nobody gets a personal escort through WP.

I read the rest of what you wrote, and again, it was strange. I have no idea who you are and it is none of my business - thinking about who you are is profoundly against the spirt of Misplaced Pages - we assume good faith about one another as a baseline and we focus on the work we do together. And I don't care what you think of me. Please stop thinking about me. I don't want to read about your speculations about what motivates me or doesn't motivate me, and you shouldn't write it Really. We don't go there in WP. If you haven't actually read WP:AGF please do.

Think about all the drama on the GMOC talk page about substantial equivalence - as you wrote on Gandy's page, that was driven by your distrust of me (which has no place here). I will also add, that the drama was driven by your ignorance with regard to the subject matter. (ignorance is not bad - i have oceans of it, and try to learn more every day) Making strong statements based on ignorance is kind of bad, however. Anyway, once you finally read the sources and let them speak to you, the issue went away. Which is great, and was a relief to me. And the article ended up with better sourcing. We could have gotten there much quicker and more pleasantly had you not wasted time being suspicious of me, and had just thought about the content, and what reliable sources say about it, before you started making strong claims. But we got there.

I am happy to reboot our working relationship. Please just deal with the content and the sources. Once you do, you will find that the articles are mostly accurate and NPOV, per reliable sources. They have been tested by fire, many many times. (they are not perfect and they can never be finished; nothing in WP ever is) But there is a lot of misinformation out there about GMOs and a lot of unreliable sources; please think carefully about the sources you bring.

Best regards Jytdog (talk) 02:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Additional note - about BP. Your effort to throw my own words at me is really glib and ugly - you don't know the story. if you had read the history of the BP article (which would take you another week at least), you would have seen that once I was able to push back the real ick that was going on there (and it was icky and is not what I do) you would have seen that Petra in particular started to push way way too far the other way and as I tried to hold the middle, she started to demonize me so much, that it got so ugly that I just walked away. That all happened before the March against Monsanto article, where she tried to do the same thing, in the same way, and then came after me again on the GMO stuff. It was really dark and ugly. I believe she has burned out and mostly left the project now. I feel bad for her; carrying that kind of hateful poison around, hurts you. As for me, I aim for the reasonable, messy middle, always. I just try to make the articles I work on, as well sourced and NPOV as I can. But that is all a big fucking waste of time; I just responded because your effort to throw my words at me - done in ignorance of the whole story - was icky.

Please just concentrate on the work. And please work carefully; be on reasonably firm ground when you make claims, and be ready to hear that you are missing information. You will find that is how i behave here. Jytdog (talk) 03:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Thank you for your response. I have many thoughts on all of the things you wrote above and spent two hours working on this response. However, I don't want to spend a lot of text explaining myself and where I feel misunderstood, so I cut much of it down. I want to focus on some points of agreement, forward movement and explain one place where we disagree.

(1) "I am happy to reboot our working relationship." Good! Let's keep it positive!

(2) I read the . It's good policy. It seems to me you were the first to start accusing me of not having "good faith". You snapped at me first, using harsh language and ad hominems. It was clear to me at that point you did not think I had "good faith". Let's please go back to (1) and not start accusing either of the "good faith" thing unless it is truly warranted. Accusations tend to cause distrust, lack of harmony. It is mentioned in WP:AGF and I agree.

(3) I did not expect an escort. I wanted to avoid stepping on well-known landmines and reigniting old disputes and people forming battle lines and get caught in the cross-fire or relegated to one side. This is a constant problem on Misplaced Pages. I have seen in on many pages. I don't know how to fix it--but I am aware of it.

(4) "Please just concentrate on the work." Yes, let's do that. However, if there is corporate malfeasance going on in regards to Misplaced Pages on ANY article, it should be addressed. If you can point me to a place where these problems are addressed, it would be much appreciated.

(5) I did not "use your words against you". Please assume the "good faith" you say I lack. Your words prove you are a stand up person and are interested in Misplaced Pages not being subverted by corporate malfeasance. That is good! That is why my distrust from the list I wrote was changed into trust. Trust is good. Let's build trust. Now we may agree there is a problem with corporate PR people, but it appears you strongly disagree with Gandydancer and others about HOW to address it. I honestly don't know what is best--I'm all ears on that subject. It is a somewhat tangential issue from the NPOV but may be a problem and a number of people have said they think it is a problem. Misplaced Pages's policies of anonymity make it quite difficult to ascertain, unfortunately. Doc James noted that. And I saw that you helped him identify "sock-puppets". Again good work. This builds more trust.

(6) I can see you have strong emotions about this, especially the sentence where you said, "fucking waste of time". I know you don't believe that or you would have left just as Petra did. I think you have a short fuse now and that's something you'll have to work on. I can see there are relationships that have developed and many strong unhealthy negative distrustful emotions have come into this. I hope we can repair the burned bridges. I don't want you to project these problems on to me and assume I am going to behave similarly as those who you have had problems with you in the past on GMO's or MAM. My goal again is to avoid repeating past mistakes.

(7) "Think about all the drama on the GMOC talk page about substantial equivalence - as you wrote on Gandy's page, that was driven by your distrust of me (which has no place here)."

No. No. No. That was not because of distrust. You are not assuming "good faith" by saying that. Please look again at the talk page of GMOC. Both of us focused on content, not trust. There was no "drama" there that I detected. The drama was on my talk page and you started it, when you got all pissy that I posted the article that was negative on Pamela Ronald (whose page is anything but "objective" and I believe the sources violate numerous RS rules. Of course, the Pro-GMO would never care about that, right?). I honestly was quite shocked at how upset you got and that certainly damaged the "good faith" assumption. Anyway, I made the edit on the "Substantial Evidence" to see what would happen. Because I truly believed that statement was incorrect. I would not have done that if you had been better at explaining it on my talk page and had not stormed off, saying, "I'm done talking to you." That would have looked terrible if you did that on the talk page, right?! If you look at where I challenged your claims about the "substantial equivalence" ON MY TALK PAGE, you didn't response about where in the article it said it was UNIVERSAL. I noted that the article clearly said the US has been shifted by corporate lobbying more so that the EU, and it was at that time you had gotten mad and stopped talking, instead of just showing me the content that proved your point as you did on the GMOC talk page in a mature way. I hope our work on the GMOC talk pages is *that* productive in the future!

(8) I would appreciate it if you read the first section of my user page written (it's shorter than this response) when I first joined Misplaced Pages about NPOV, bias, objectivity, etc. I think it applies as much today about my concerns on the GMO pages as it did about other subjects I had seen with controversy.

Maybe that wasn't so abbreviated. LOL!!  :-) Yours truly,David Tornheim (talk) 06:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your remarks. I will see you on the Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 08:08, 22 February 2015 (UTC)(striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Conflict of interest in WP

OK, you keep referring to corporate interests working to pervert WP and the like, and above you asked me to tell you about how "corporate malfeasance" is addressed here.

I work a lot in this area - this is something that is very important to me and I spent a significant chunk of my time on Misplaced Pages dealing with it. So I can tell you about it. This is quite long, for which I apologize, but I want to give you an intro and then a careful description.

pre-intro... before I do, I want to say something again. While I understand your concern about corporate corruption of WP and share it, your approach to this issue is wrong. We do not begin by distrusting anybody, and we do not write boatloads about how we feel about other editors in Misplaced Pages. You will understand that better ( I hope) after reading the following.

Intro: The whole complex of policies and ideas about anonymity and outing is very important to this project. We assume good faith and we do not try to WP:OUT anybody. Let me put this in bold - if you try to out another editor, you will be banned. Misplaced Pages takes anonymity very very seriously. Editors who have been publicly identified have been threatened with physical violence, hounded, and otherwise fucked with both professionally and personally, by crazy and bad people. I know editors to whom this happened. The Outing policy is strictly enforced, and very important to how this place operates.

Related to that -- deep in the guts of Misplaced Pages - part of the beautiful and well-thought-out heart of this place - is the notion that we are all equals, working respectfully side by side, looking at and focused on creating and improving article content according to Misplaced Pages's content policies and guidelines, and behaving according to WP's behavioral policies, guidelines, and norms. WP is all about content, not contributors; it doesn't matter who you are in the real world - Randy from Boise or a nobel laureate. We don't know who you are in the real world, and we don't care. What matters is the content you create and how you conduct yourself. It is beautiful.

If we have problems with the behavior of another editor - if another editor's behavior leads us to pull our eyes from content and direct them at another editor - we address that directly and respectfully with the other editor on his or her Talk page, and if that fails, we take it to one of the boards and let the community handle the matter. It should never get personal here. This place falls away from its ideal and becomes really ugly when editors turn their eyes from article content and start looking at and discussing one another's good or bad intentions, or start talking about how qualified they are and how we should accept their contributions based on their authority instead of what reliable sources say. These are all typical newbie mistakes. When you combine those newbie mistake with some passion... you can see that things get even uglier, faster.

I hope you reflect on that, and incorporate that into the way you operate here.

OK, intro is over.

The key documents regarding "corporate malfeasance" are WP:NOT (specifically WP:PROMO), WP:NPOV, WP:COI, and WP:ADVOCACY. You should notice right away, that NOT is pillar and policy, NPOV is policy, COI is a guideline, not a policy, and ADVOCACY is just an essay, not a guideline and not a policy. ("policy", "guideline", and "essay" are technical terms in WP) I'll discuss these in there order of centrality to the heart of WP and community consensus about them.

there you go. Happy to discuss any part of that or answer any questions you may have. Jytdog (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Wow!! Thank you so much for a very interesting read and much good information! I had no idea! I will do the reading you recommended. I started working on response last night, but the power went out, so I might get back to you later on some of my initial reaction, and also some of the confusion I have long had, which I think is a problem for other new and even experienced users as well. I'm really happy you have such strong feelings on this matter and you have such a strong commitment to addressing these problems. I agree with nearly every thing you say in one way or another, and understand the potential corruption from "passion" or Ideology or Cultural myopia (such as Patriotism or Nationalist views), where one particular POV is so strongly held that there is simply no room for any other view, no matter how reasonable. And honestly, when I first heard about Misplaced Pages, I thought Ideology and cultural myopia would ruin all the articles, since ANYONE could edit and had an equal voice in what looked like "democracy-knowledge." I saw almost immediately that I was wrong about that, and that exceptionally well written articles started popping up and often included positions that the average American might cringe at, but which were in fact true.

And I was even more impressed how many article were far more NPOV than the mainstream media's incredible superficial treatment of nearly every subject they address. Nonetheless, I can't say I totally understand WHY it works. I'm glad it does and glad to be a part of it. But obviously it doesn't always work and I do tend to jump in when I see an article that lacks NPOV and try to balance the one-sided voices. I typical example is when I looked at the page for my hometown Terrace_Park,_Ohio. The page had a very Euro-centric view and I tried to fix it but was met with heavy opposition from an admin. who I believe threatened to use his/her admin. powers to block me if I put in the Native American portion. The editor just reverted everything I did and another admin. Beeblebrox saw the problem and definitely agreed that the other admin. was out of line. But I didn't feel like going into contentious Wiki-litigation with DR, so instead, I just waited until the other editor who had been a problem stopped watching and corrected the content, and fortunately it stuck! I have considered trying DR, in cases like that but was afraid to. I don't understand the Wiki-court proceedings, and do not want to make a fool of myself in front of a large number of established users, and I don't want to be perceived as a "vexation litigant". Unfortunately, there is no free Wiki-legal advice for this unusual pseudo-judicial system of DR, ArbCon, etc. LOL. I actually did a search on that on-line and might have paid someone to give me Wiki-legal advice before I started trying to edit on the page! LOL. David Tornheim (talk) 03:52, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

glad you found this useful. "why" it works, is people. there are enough people who are committed to the ideals of WP and who have really digested not only the letter but the spirit of PAG, that they are able to keep the ship on even-enough keel. i spend another chunk of my time here trying to teach newish editors how this place works and what those ideals are. some get it, some don't. some get it, with time. people have built some structures to help improve and maintain quality. I do a lot of work in heath-related articles and follow/participate in the WT:WikiProject Medicine and together that group minds many important articles here. It is super helpful to have a community Jytdog (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

GMO Controversy -- Talk discussion Jokes

fwiw, i would appreciate it, if you would not engage in sarcasm and other rhetorical flourishes in the Talk page discussion, as you did in your 2nd paragraph here. Let's try to have a simple, serious discussion - dealing with the actual issues is hard enough, without distractions. You are free to do as you wish; I'm just telling you what I think would be most productive. You will find that I will just not respond to stuff like that. I think other editors may do, and if they do, it will probably be something in similar vein directed at you, and soon we are in an ugly place. Best just not to go there, in my view. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 15:01, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

I was afraid you would say that. Sometimes a good laugh is good for the soul to release tension from being too serious all the time, no? Besides, humor sometimes has a truth of its own--A Modest Proposal was an outstanding example of that, I think. Nietzsche's sarcasm is amazing. I know I have been to many scientific and engineering conferences where the speaker starts off with a joke. Besides, I thought Lfstevens's joke was funny too. Did you scold him as well? David Tornheim (talk) 15:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

"I think other editors may do, and if they do, it will probably be something in similar vein directed at you, and soon we are in an ugly place." I don't think it would go to an "ugly" place. If they lack a sense of humor and bring it there, they look like fools in front of everyone. They are wise not to take it personally and laugh at it too, as I am sure Lfstevens will do! David Tornheim (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

i don't know if you have worked on controversial articles before, but i have done so a lot and in my experience, sarcasm/rhetoric is really unhelpful and does lead the discussion astray when others respond without self-restraint. you will do as you will, of course. btw i am watching your talk page so no need to leave talkbacks at mine. Jytdog (talk) 15:25, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

this wasn't meant as a scold, but as advice. you can do with it as you will. i didn't see a joke by lfstevens. can you point me to what you are talking about? thx Jytdog (talk) 15:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

You asked him about it Where he added the comment:

When will the anti-GMO folks produce an unimpeachable study that supports their fears? Lfstevens (talk) 09:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Did you not see it? Please tell you understood he was joking. David Tornheim (talk) 15:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

He was being serious. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

LOL!! David Tornheim (talk) 16:47, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

User:Roxy the dog: Welcome to the discussion. What brings you here?David Tornheim (talk) 16:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I found that comment/set of comments confusingly formatted and so i wrote him a note on his talk page about it, yes. it was so fragmented/strange that i hesitated to react to it at all and still have not. Jytdog (talk) 16:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Okay, I noticed those various fragments too, and considered replying, but I am trying to keep focus there. I think we are making progress, and I think you are beginning to see where I am coming from on the sentence in question. The jokes I just saw as light-hearted distraction before me get back to the heavy work of looking at WP:RS. I so wished you thought it was funny. Oh well. I do have another thing I wanted to say about sarcasm, but I'll get back to that later. I'm going to make a new section for discussion, because of your question asking me if I had been to or worked on a controversial page. Yes, absolutely. And I want to share my experience and the confusion I had about how Misplaced Pages there, and my concerns that other users get confused in the same way I did. David Tornheim (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2015 (UTC

Perhaps you are right. The man could tell a joke, but not take one of the same nature. I do think you should have scolded him too, if you knew this was his personality. It does seem like a double-standard, otherwise. I indeed found his response to my joke both annoying and needlessly distracting from what we were talking about. I think I am also annoyed at how much time you and I had to waste talking about it on top of it. If all of us just laughed there wouldn't have been a problem. Oh well--advice noted. David Tornheim (talk) 22:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

as i told you above, i did not take it as a joke. i took it as too fragmentary to interpret. hence there was no double standard; i experienced only one "joke". also you have said that I "scolded" you. Parents scold their children. teachers scold their students. I have no authority over you. I told you I would prefer you not be sarcastic, and explained why. You will do as you wish. Jytdog (talk) 22:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Attack on Pearl Harbor article experience

Jytdog: In answer to your question about whether I have been on contentious pages. Yes, definitely. As I may have told you already, I was very impressed early on with the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, but I didn't understand how differing perspectives were handled and settled, and why the content didn't just change every day if people disagreed. Around the time I created an account, I picked a topic I knew something about that I knew would definitely be contentious and controversial to the average Patriotic, nationalist American: I knew from college level history studies the very un-Patrioriotic facts that about Attack on Pearl Harbor: FDR and the military were aware the Japanese Navy was out and was likely to strike--they just didn't know where--and, in fact, Pearl Harbor was on alert at the time of the attack. Also, the U.S. had backed Japan into a corner with foreign policy having to do with I believe trade barriers and naval power. so, it wasn't entirely a surprise Japan was going to do something about it. The only surprise was that it was not the Philippines. And, worse, FDR was itching to get into WWII, but popular sentiment was against it, so this was a convenient way to get in the war, a bit like Remember the Maine. These are all well established and documented facts (and I believe you can find them all cited in Misplaced Pages, but not in that article where they belong!). So, to some degree the "unprovoked" "surprise" attack wasn't quite as big of a suprise as the average Patriotic American believes it is, and I think it is easy to argue that FDR used it to get into the war--something President are quite adept at doing (I can name a few if you don't know of any. :-)).

Anyway, I went to the page to see how these controversial facts were handled: Not very well at ALL. Any attempt to put any of that on the page was absolute heresy to the people who controlled the article at the time, and probably still is to this day. (Incidentally, despite the absence of this material, the page is a work of art otherwise--lots of good pics, and narrative, etc.) Anything negative like this--even if it was factual--was just a "conspiracy theory" and had to go on this page Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory, which was NOWHERE referenced on the pristine attack on pearl harbor article, because after all since it is a "conspiracy theory", it's not true, it's just b.s. in their minds, and held by lunatics. (I see that it is mentioned fairly early in the article now, but is still a "conspiracy theory").

I quickly saw it was hopeless to get anything like that in because I didn't understand the system. The take home message for me then (I view it differently now, especially after discussion with you) was this: if those with your perspective don't have a majority of the editors on your side (especially admins who can threaten to block you -or- experienced users who can twist the meaning of WP:RS to get their source in and yours rejected, and who know all the horrors of DR and the other threatened administrative actions and are probably friends with the decision makers who would be the judges and rule on their side even when any neutral observer would surely disagree), you will be bullied and you are sure to lose and they know it and are happy to flaunt it. It was pretty humbling--a bunch of thugs running the page making up and bending the rules to suit their agenda. (I suspected then this was not the plan, but I hadn't a clue what was to be done about.)

Shortly after that experience, I ran into one of the few people who had a paid position at Misplaced Pages Foundation at Cafe Abir in San Francisco and told him about this experience. He said he was pretty disappointed to hear about it, and that that was not supposed to happen. I don't know if I got his contact info. and if I did I doubt I could find it. He was a great guy regardless and I really enjoyed conversing with him.

I share this experience with you, because I know this is *not* how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, but I think many new users get the feeling that this is how it works, and even long time editors seem to hold this opinion too, and that is a problem. Speaking with you--and again thank you for the long COI--I feel a little more optimistic that the system is designed to address these problem and with the right amount of patience perseverance, and attention to proper procedure, the kind of thing that I saw on the Attack on Pearl Harbor page will be rectified. David Tornheim (talk) 17:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

thanks for sharing that. Jytdog (talk) 21:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You are welcome. The page is vastly improved on this issue as some of this is right in the lede, and it looks like its first appearance was only a few months after the time I was watching it. I would love to find out how the "conspiracy theorists" were able to get it in. (Possibly the process really did work. I really thought it was hopeless. Maybe I will put some time into researching that. I wish it didn't take so much work to figure out how something got in--although WikiBlame helps.) Nonetheless, the language there is still a little slanted. I doubt FDR deliberately provoked the Japanese to attack or even let it happen in order to get the U.S. into the war (I don't the evidence supports this theory), just as I doubt GW Bush tried to make 9/11 happen or let it happen (same). But both presidents unquestionably used the attacks to justify getting the U.S. into wars they wanted to get in to that the U.S. was opposed to with propaganda that played fast and loose with the facts. The Remember the Maine article is much more honest about how the propaganda works. I hope you can see how this is relevant to the issues I am raising on GMO's. David Tornheim (talk) 04:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You are comparing the anti-GMO stance with a conspiracy theory rejected by the mainstream, Are you saying they are parallel? That is a real question, not sarcastic. Jytdog (talk) 10:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

No, I wasn't comparing them directly--obviously the mainstream is concerned about GMO's!---but please hear me out. When you had asked if I had experience with controversial issues in Misplaced Pages, I wanted to share that particular experience and how it shaped my feelings about how Misplaced Pages functions in practice (far different than the ideals stated in all the policies, guidelines, etc.), and what seemed to be the typical way contested decisions are handled. My belief at that time, and for a long time after that, was this state of affairs was the result of a combination of vague, confusing, overwhelmingly complicated and seemingly contradictory rules, many of which were more like suggestions, all of which could be arbitrarily broken ("ignore the rules" WP:ignore), that could and were interpreted to suit a POV-pusher's agenda. Also included was my impression of a bizarre pseudo-judicial system of dispute resolution that appeared to be based more on friendships and loyalties than an objective and somewhat predicable decision-making system overseen by vetted judges who fully understood the rules, had pledged to obey them objectively, and had to put aside their personal opinions of the dispute's subject matter and any feelings about the parties (which is how law is at least supposed to be practiced in the United States). Instead, it seemed those particularly versed in all the confusion and ambiguity of the rules were at a huge advantage to get their way, even when it was transparent to the new user they were playing fast and loose with the rules to get what they wanted in the article. And lastly, that people with admin. power were especially to be feared, because they would not hesitate to use it to get their way, and if you challenged them, they would retaliate and get you blocked or banned.

It wasn't until you sent me that wonderful long essay about COI, "passion", anonymity, , etc., that I began to understand how things are supposed to work, which was inspiring. I want to believe it can work and that a reasonable NPOV will result, instead of the horrible things that at least seemed to be happening with Attack on Pearl Harbor.

(Sorry if I am repeating myself. My reason for repeating it is, that I want to articulate concisely that experience, which I think may be typical for new users (and even experienced or long term users like myself who still feel overwhelmed and confused by the rules), and bring it to the attention of a bigger audience of more experience users (in some noticeboard) who may have forgotten that feeling but may have the power and wisdom of the process to address it, with hopes of both rectifying new user confusion like this, but also with aims to find ways that new users and users like me can find ways of obtaining, what I would call Wiki-Legal advice on: (1) if rule abuse really is going on, or it is just a misunderstanding of how the rules work -and- (2) how to challenge abuse if it is truly going on without how having to fear retaliation by advanced users and admins. Even better would be to have experienced users who act like attorneys assisting client users, who clearly have been wronged by users who have gamed the system, and who will stand by their client until the issue is resolved. (I work in law, so it's easy for me to see it this way)).

That said, I have seen on the talk pages, comments that GMO critics are WP:Fringe and that part does indeed remind me of my experience of Attack on Pearl Harbor, where legitimate verifiable perspectives are scrubbed from the page like a nasty blemish to the "truth" that concerns raised by GMO critics are just paranoid fantasies of people who "don't know what they are talking about". The discussion about the "contamination" vs. "mixed" is a good example. I really feel the people who changed "contamination" to "mixed" in that discussion are not playing by the rules. Is it deliberate? I hope not. Perhaps, they are blind to the obvious violation of the rules, because they are surrounded by a number of people who back them up and can't see the violation either? And perhaps, deliberate or not, they feel emboldened to continue scrubbing GMO critics' concerns, because they have gotten away with it before, many times over, and it feels like the natural order of things, because after all, GMO critics are nothing but a bunch of fools (like people who believe in space aliens) and everyone with any common sense knows this, except the GMO critics. It's this patronizing attitude towards GMO critics that is a big problem. That part to me is indeed just as unfair as what happened with the Attack on Pearl Harbor article.

Does that answer your question? I tried not to exaggerate too much--the first draft I'm sure you would have disapproved of!  :-) David Tornheim (talk) 14:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to know what you meant - if you meant that the anti-GMO position itself, is like some aspects of the pearl harbor conspiracy theories themselves. I get it, that you described your experience at the Pearl Harbor article so I could see what it was like for you and what issues you saw there. I am asking a different question, to understand you better. I took a quick look (not complete, and somewhat cursory!) of some of the history of the pearl harbor article and I see that you argued to give more weight and credence to some of the ideas held by conspiracy theories about pearl harbor and that others opposed you on the grounds of NPOV, specifically UNDUE. In your view, is that provisional description, a somewhat accurate description of what you were doing and the opposition you encountered? You are free to not continue this conversation, if you like. Jytdog (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

No, I did not give any support for any conspiracy theory or WP:Fringe theory. I supported having an article that reflected the current scholarship on the subject by expert historians using Misplaced Pages's standards for RS and NPOV and any other RS that was appropriate as I still would now. I looked again at the talk pages of that time, and am reminded how uncivil and rude those who controlled the page were, using ad hominems like "loon" and "stupid" to people they disagreed with. I was saddened to see Misplaced Pages discussion was not at a higher level of civility. I did stand up for those who were being mistreated by those who were all bluster and no substance. I think I was more interested in trying to get the two sides to be civil and reasonable to each other and see eye-to-eye than anything else. (Not likely, right?) I see that I put a lot of time creating an outline so both sides could insert their claims and evidence to back up their claims. When I saw it again today, I had to laugh that I actually thought either side would cooperate! They were more interested in arguing with each other, for sure. Thanks for having me take a look at it again. From rereading it now, I do see that most of the discussion on those talk pages did not sufficiently focus on RS and a bunch of it was speculation and personal opinions rather than direct references to material in RS. I would definitely approach all of it quite differently now if I saw that discussion. But I was just learning back then, observing, and it was fun to see how it worked about be part of it. I was basically "getting my feet wet" and watching what was going on more than anything else and some times jumping in. David Tornheim (talk) 18:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for talking too! Last questions on this topic: In regard to my paragraph above starting with "(Sorry if I am repeating myself..." and explanations for the purpose : (1) Do you think the most experienced users are well aware that new users may often think this is how Misplaced Pages actually works and why they might lose confidence in it? (2) What forum is appropriate for discussion this general Misplaced Pages issue? (3) Are you aware that it has already been thoroughly discussed and efforts are in process to address it, and if so where I might look at those discussions? I wouldn't know where to begin searching for any of that. As a very involved and invested Wikipedian, I would think you might know. David Tornheim (talk) 00:10, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

when i witness new users getting all involved in hot conflicts (especially if i am not involved too) i try to jump into the new user's talk page and try to calm them down, and get them to understand that a) this place actually has a "rule of law" and is not a wild west, mad max place where people can just do whatever they want' b) they don't know anything about those "rules"; c) it is really unwise to get offended and even get in arguments when you don't understand what is going on... and I try to get them to let go of the argument and go edit elsewhere, on stuff they don't care so much about, while they learn what is going on. it works sometimes.

I didn't answer your question fully, about helping new editors. I know there are all kinds of tools to help new editors - the various welcome templates, everything in the Template:Help_navigation help navigation template, the invitations to the Misplaced Pages:Teahouse (meant to be a welcoming place to help new editors get adjusted), the WIkipedia Adventure training modules.. there is also a community working on this, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention. I don't know if, or if so how, they try to help new editors who really want to work on contentious articles. Like I said, i do my best to advise new editors not to try - its like trying to climb mount everest when you have just started learning how to climb; or skiing a black diamond trail when you are just starting to ski. WP:COMPETENCE really is required sometimes here, as it is in real life. Jytdog (talk) 14:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

science

hi david. you seem pretty committed to working on the GMO stuff, so I want to ask you... how much of the underlying science do you understand? if you don't understand it much, that is fine, but i would appreciate the opportunity to tell you about it. i find that the work goes much better when everybody is starting with a baseline understanding. thx Jytdog (talk) 03:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Far more than the average U.S. citizen and many of the reporters who write articles about it for the mainstream and just repeat stuff from press releases they got from one side or the other and couple of short interviews with the originators of the press release. I know a little bit about how journalists work on "breaking stories". But I know far less than GMO critics like Jeffrey Smith, Michael Pollun or advocates like Pamela Ronald or John Entine, and far far less than scientists who are experts who work in toxicology like Seralini and specialize in the science of food safety (I'm not talking about the regulation which is a very different matter). I also understand the politicization of science within scientific institutions and at universities. My parents are both professors emeritus from a major University and one actually did studies in drug testing and is familiar from first hand experience with the heavy handed ways drug companies will manipulate studies to try to make it so they can sell their drug, and how using the wrong statistics is part of it. I could tell you more about one particular story on that, but I would need to make sure it doesn't violate and ethical issues to talk about it. I have a B.S. Electrical Engineering and a Masters in E.E. as well, but I don't consider myself a scientist, but I know quite a lot about physics and chemistry, but took no additional courses in biology, organic chemistry, biochemistry. My science study in college was all with dead stuff!  :-) Thanks for the response on your page--I'll get back to that. I thought I would give you this report. One reason that I more than the average American besides my knowledge of science and info. from my parents is that I have spent a fair amount of time reading about food and watching documentaries like Jeffrey Smith's GMO Roulette--which exaggerates about the actual impact on health (I know that from reading some studies)--many things he does say I have checked out and have found nothing that refutes them at all. I did see a John Entine article (or maybe it was someone else) going point by point trying to discredit everything thing in the film--and some of the things they did question like cause-effect of leaky gut (which MAY be related to GMO's or equally well might not) I thought were fair criticisms. But the existence of something like Bt corn is pretty horrifying to me to be honest, and I think that most Americans feel the same way--regardless of how many studies so far have not observed any effect at all on human health, and this is the big value of the film--to tell people things that they don't know and have good reason to be concerned about (IMHO). I hope that answers your question. I have tried reading the various studies and because I am not an expert it in toxicology it can be challenging to know if many of the things Seralini said defending his behavior are reasonable or not, especially for example, his claim that Monsanto used the same # and kind of rats in their 90 day feeding trials, but then critics said that he needed to use more because of the mortality of the rats--I don't know if that is a fair criticism of his work or not. And if it is, I want to understand why he would use the wrong # of rats for a 2 YEAR STUDY if he knew in advance the # of rats was too few. It could be because of pressure from Greenpeace. I really don't know. So something like that, I wish I could talk to a specialist in toxicology who does studies like that but has not done them on GMO's to see what makes the most sense. Again I hope that answers your question. David Tornheim (talk) 04:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

One thing I meant to point out that I should point out, which I have been holding off on saying, is that the relevant fields, I believe for questions about the safety of GMO foods are: Food Safety, Toxicology and Epidemiology, possibly a couple of others not Biogenetics. One of the big problems with the "scientific consensus" statement I have been challenging is that it originates with biogeneticist scientists who can make enormous profits from minimum regulation and study and findings of potential or actual negative health impacts. Being out of their specialty, I do not believe they are qualified to make such wide sweeping claims about the safety of the applications they create (any more than you and me are), or any more than engineers who design integrated circuits are qualified to make consumer safety claims about their designs, unless they have special training in the correct field and are not tied financially to selling their products.) I have not raised this issue yet in that subject and maybe I should just copy and paste this portion or rewrite something similar. David Tornheim (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

thanks for answering. what you write opens more questions for me, but i will just ask a few.

when i asked you if you understand the science, i wanted to know if you understand genetic engineering. sorry for not being more precise. i am not asking if you could do it if you standing in a lab - i am asking if you understand what goes on, in making a genetically engineered bacteria, plant or mouse (or gene therapy, for that matter). I din't ask what you understand about subsequent steps in bringing a GM crop to market and am considering how and whether to address that with you off the article talk page (we already started addressing this with the "substantial equivalence" discussion at the article Talk page)

i can explain to you what is wrong with Seralini's reasoning defending his study design (and more importantly, his rhetoric) if you like. i can give you my best guess as to why the study design was set up the way it was, if you like.

please tell me if you like, why the existence of something like Bt corn is pretty horrifying to you. i would be interested to hear. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

No, I don't know much about how biogenetics is done. I understand from this article that there are at least two major ways of doing it: (1) gene gun (which is mentioned in "Genetic Roulette" documentary (2) using bacteria to replicate either DNA or proteins or something like that. Observing the DNA I understand can be done with electron scanning microscopes. How one is able to take a strand from one gene (these are pretty small, right?) and force that small strand into another organism's gene--that a bit harder for me to envision. Like a operation to try to take a collection of molecules from someone's brain--what tools are able to cut and dice at submicroscopic levels? Despite how impossible it seems to be able to drill around and do construction at these submicroscopic levels, I know some sleep study experiments involved putting probes into INDIVIDUAL neurons. Those I would think are about as small as a DNA strand--so that's hard for me to believe too, but I know that can be done--I just can't imagine HOW that is possible. Having worked in VLSI design, I do understand how chips are created at these levels--they use a very finely calibrated laser, masks are photographically reduced to do etching.

Seralini: I am creating a new topic for that.

Bt Corn "please tell me if you like, why the existence of something like Bt corn is pretty horrifying to you." I don't think food (even if it is just for animals) should have pesticide (or herbicide) added to it. We was are instructed to wash off our conventional fresh fruits, for example, to rid of pesticide residues, because of undesirable toxic effects of pesticides and herbicides to humans (even though clearly not all pesticides have negative human health impacts). Pesticides and herbicides (the suffix gives the indication) are designed to kill living beings, so adding them to the various parts of the food supply, especially in widespread quantities with very little long-term study, to me is very risky. Unintended consequences could be pretty bad--consider DDT.

One might say that pesticides and herbicides exist in nature. I do know that honey, for example, doesn't spoil because it has an anti-bacterial layer or emulsion, which is probably not unlike a pesticide. That is not so troubling to me because it has developed from evolution and has been around for many centuries (or probably far far longer), and there is no evidence I know of even from paranoid and delusion people much less highly trained scientists that eating honey in ordinary quantities has negative health impacts, except for those who might be allergic to it. Evolution is a very slow process, but biogenetics is not.

Question back for you: Do you understand toxicology (and epidemiology) and if so, on what level of expertise do you have and how did you obtain that knowledge?David Tornheim (talk) 15:30, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for answering.

I understand toxicology and epidemiology enough to discuss them soundly and confidently. I have a high level understanding of statistics. I am not discussing personal details.

if you want me to explain genetic engineering to you, let me know. if you want me to explain Bt to you, let me know (the comparison with DDT or any other small molecule is not apt). Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

"The Mutational Consequences of Plant Transformation" by Jonathan R. Latham, Allison K. Wilson, and Ricarda A. Steinbrecher (J Biomed Biotechnol. 2006) is informative and concise. It complements an aforecited law review in showing that the consequences of genetic engineering procedures are, in fact, unpredictable and not well understood. Also see: User:Groupuscule/GMO#Engineering Creates Unpredictable Changes to DNA. "Explanations" of genetic engineering, propounded by the likes of Henry I. Miller, oversimplified the process in a way which no longer stands up to scientific scrutiny (if indeed it ever did). groupuscule (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Séralini

Jtydog said "i can explain to you what is wrong with Séralini's reasoning defending his study design (and more importantly, his rhetoric) if you like." Jytdog (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I would like to hear that. FYI, when I first talked with you I had zero respect for the study, and thought Séralini did not apply statistics correctly either out of intention or ignorance. That conclusion came shortly after the prodding one of my parents (who is very Pro-GMO) for A SINGLE study like the one Lfstevens was asking for. When I saw the various memes about the Séralini study, I briefly looked at the study, which I didn't really spend enough time to fully understand and showed it to my Pro-GMO parent. My Pro-GMO parent attacked the study, criticizing it for statistical insignificance and use of the Sprague-Dawley rat designed to get cancer. I trust that parent's judgement about reading a study, but now I wonder if that parent, instead of reading it just Googled it to find the criticisms. I see that parent often uses all the Pro-GMO rhetoric like "feeding the world" or "GM has been going on for centuries with traditional breeding", rather than coming to that conclusion independently as I had formerly believed.

The criticism of too few rats (I was told 10 in the control and 10 in the study group, but I see it was 10 per group, with maybe 10 gruops) were too few to obtain significantly different results. From my knowledge of statistics, I agree, and wondered my anyone would use so few rats. But then later I discovered that Monsanto used the SAME # of rats and no one was criticizing them for doing inadequate study of statistical significance! When I heard that, I knew there was far more to the story and so I read up a bunch more on Séralini and think he is probably an upstanding guy and was unfairly attacked--except I think the PR methods to announce the study are a bit questionable and I don't approve from what I have read (and if Greenpeace was the major funder of the study that I can see how that compromises the communication at a minimum, and possibly also the choice of methods an # of rats). But Pamela Ronald I think does the same kind of things on the other side and has COI herself, so it not just one side's PR voice that is a problem.

The fact that the study was done with Sprague-Dawley rats made the finding of tumors not as remarkable as I originally thought when I showed the Pro-GMO parent--and hence the pictures in the memes of rats with tumors was DELIBERATELY misleading and designed to scare. But I suspect that miscommunication is not necessarily Séralini's fault, and may be the media--which loves sensationalism--and very likely also Greenpeace's PR communication strategies. And since he was taking money from Greenpeace, he might have been compromised in giving them the pictures or letting them take the pictures, possibly not realizing that those pics were going to be used to send a misleading message to the public (but I have trouble believing he could be so easily mislead by Greenpeace!). I suspect something like that was going on so Séralini may have been compromised by the funders--which happens all the time with drug companies on the industry side as I had mentioned before.

I did understand that the Sprague-Dawley rat was standard in toxicology so one can't fault the study or experimenter for using them. From everything I have been reading more recently, I think Séralini is probably not any worse of a scientist than say Pamela Ronald. And both that both have some COI issues that have compromised their messages to the public. David Tornheim (talk) 16:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem with the study design was the whole thing - the choice of rat, the numbers of rats, and the length of time (lifetime of the rat). That rat develops high numbers of tumors over its lifetime, all by itself. Same rat, way more rats (60 per arm per OECD), same length of time, the results would have been interpretable. (this what the Grace Project says they are doing) Same rat, same number of rats, less time (which is the current standard tox study design), the results are interpretable. Seralini's design - not interpretable. Just noise. I don't speculate about motives. I just know what Seralini did and said. And I know what Ronald did - when her lab discovered the contaminated reagents, she self-retracted. That is what good scientists do.

I just wrote a long response to your bringing Ronald into this again, and deleted it. If you think what happened with Ronald and what happened with Seralini are in any way parallel, I don't know what to say to you. I really don't. Jytdog (talk) 18:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Hi David, just as an FYI your comment caught my eye: "But then later I discovered that Monsanto used the SAME # of rats and no one was criticizing them . . ." That's actually a common half truth in this topic that comes up often and part of the reason why the nuance and understanding needed on the controversies for GMOs (or any science topic) makes editing the articles so difficult. Monsanto did a very different study than Seralini in that it was for a shorter period of time (90 days I believe). The number of rats in the Monsanto study was actually appropriate for the length of the study, but Seralini's went way beyond that length and would require more rats because of it. That detail often gets glossed over whenever the "Monsanto used the same number of rats" comments pop up. Just curious if you were aware of that. It actually could be something worth mentioning in the article, but I'd have to go back and find the sources that briefly mention that if it's even worth including at all. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

yep - sprague rat, 10 rats per arm, 90 days, is the current standard tox test. Jytdog (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC) (striking, this discussion is not something I should have done Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC))

Yes, I knew about the 90 day vs. 2 years was mentioned in some of the criticisms. I am not sufficiently an expert to know the basis of the conclusion that he should have used 65 rats. Is there an international standard in toxicology that 10 rats is fine for 90 days and 65 rats are required for 2 years. That would be more compelling that he was not doing "good science." David Tornheim (talk) 21:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Bingo. The OECD puts out guidelines exactly for this (one example ). that we also currently cite explains the difference between the two studies pretty well in the last few paragraphs. We don't flesh that out too much right now in the article, but that's a conversation for the talk page there if anyone wants to start looking into that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look at the standards. David Tornheim (talk) 05:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the standard. The one you gave me is the wrong standard. Séralini used OECD No. 408, just like Monsanto did. Séralini was not testing for carcinogenesis; he was testing for toxicity. He specifically says in the study's introduction "Thus, it was not designed as a carcinogenicity study." For some reason the editor appears confused and says Séralini was looking for carcinogenicity, when it is clear he was not. So this doesn't really provide any evidence that Séralini used the wrong # of rats, any more than it does for Monsanto. In fact, it appears to confirm that he did use the correct number of rats to test toxicity. Here is a quote from the editor from the link you gave me:

In accordance with OECD Guideline No. 408 (OECD, 2009a), the Hammond et al. study was limited to 90 days following and used 20 rats/sex/group, and was conducted in general compliance with OECD Good Laboratory Practice (GLP) guidelines, as previously stated. The Séralini et al. study ran for two (2) years with only 10 rats/sex/group and was reported to be done in a GLP environment according to OECD guidelines (which guideline is not explicitly stated in the paper). Séralini et al. state that they had “had no reason to settle at first for a carcinogenesis protocol using 50 rats per group,” as recommended in OECD Nos. 451 and 453 (guidelines for Carcinogenicity Studies and Combined Chronic Toxicity/Carcinogenicity Studies, respectively)(OECD, 2009a; OECD, 2009b), and instead seem to have opted for 10 rats/sex/group as recommended by OECD No. 408 (guidelines for Repeated Dose 90-day Oral Toxicity Study in Rodents). While the number of animals used may have been sufficient to reach conclusions regarding oral toxicity, it proved insufficient for conclusions related to the carcinogenicity of the test substances.

source

So the editor appears to agree that the # of rats were sufficient to test toxicity, which is exactly what he said he was testing in the study.David Tornheim (talk) 10:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

One of the criticisms of Seralini is that he calls it a toxicity study, but the results he emphasizes in the study are indeed carcinogenic in nature. The main problem though was that Seralini went out 2 years instead of 90-days. That causes multiple confounding factors related to rat longevity that makes the two studies very different and also makes Seralini's a more poorly designed study for toxicological findings. More rats are needed for longer studies not just because they're testing for carcinogenicity, but because of the underlying biology of the rats when a study lasts longer. That's the basic gist of some of the underlying science just for reference. Since we're not actually generating content right now from this conversation though, I'll be letting this conversation be. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:58, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Done

In light of your comment on my Talk page, I believe it is best if we stop talking off the article Talk page. I am unwilling to risk being perceived as canvassing (no canvassing is an important WP policy, and important to me) and you are clearly taking it that way, and I also don't want you to feel intimidated. See you on the article talk page. Jytdog (talk) 21:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog: I'm sorry if my allegations about your PAST behavior are upsetting. I knew they would be, but it needed to be said. Now think about how it might have made me feel when you made canvassing allegations against me and they still are on the talk page even though we have been gaining rapport and trust. I could have done the same, but I did not. I honestly think it is pretty childish to strikeout all our discussion like that and I expect more from an adult. Please, take a deep breath, take some time out, and think about what I said that was so upsetting. I was not talking about our most RECENT discussion, which is very productive. I was talking about WHEN I FIRST SPOKE TO YOU and you said THINGS WOULD GET UGLY and the way you treated Alexlikescats. This recent discussion is quite productive and I think you know that. I would really appreciate if once you cool off, you undid the strikeouts of the recent discussion so we can continue and talk like two adults. David Tornheim (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not upset. You are continuing to write all this stuff about contributors and not content, and you are continuing to make very strong statements about what motivates other editors; as I've said to you before, this is both unwise and not what we do here. You don't know what motivated my actions today, and you haven't asked. From my behavior, I think it is very clear that I am backing out of the kind of engagement I have had with you. Striking, is what we do here, when we disclaim what we said and apologize. That is what I have done. I do regret having engaged with you as I did, and I am sorry for having taken up your time and for the upset I have caused you. I will see you on the article talk pages. Jytdog (talk) 02:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Note

Hello, I'm Jytdog. I noticed that you made a comment that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Misplaced Pages needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Jytdog (talk)

Per WP:NPA and WP:TPG. please use article Talk pages to discuss content, not contributors. Thanks. If you have a concern with the behavior of other editors, please politely bring that up with them on their Talk pages, and if you don't see a change in the behavior you see as problematic, you can take that issue to the relevant noticeboard. Jytdog (talk) 09:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, you have continued and i again have removed your comment. On article talk pages, please discuss content, based on policies and guidelines. I am politely telling you that your behavior is problematic. Please change your behavior, or I will need to bring this to a notice board. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 11:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

You had suggested on my Talk page that "It might be help if when someone comes onto any of these pages and starts making changes or recommendations to tell them up front how much time you put into the articles and the goals you have had for them, past problems and concerns and the desire not to repeat these problems, that you hope to be able to work together to achieve these goals if they are agreeable. It might still be a bit heavy handed, but I think it would help them understand your resistance to changes in the article, especially resistance when someone is trying to do a better job of presenting the GMO critics concerns.". I had responded to that quite clearly, which i subsequently struck. I will re-claim what I said there, and say it here: "the notion that i would somehow introduce myself to new editors and explain my history there to them is ... well... wrong-headed wikipedia-wise and icky, in my view. first it is way too much about contributor not content. second, i know that i don't own the articles and that i have no intrinsic authority over them. i have to justify whatever changes i make per PAG, every day, just like the next editor." That remains true.

Your effort to do what you recommended that I do, which i removed, is as wrong-headed with regard to WP's policies and guidelines as your initial suggestion that I do it. It is not what we do here, and i take it as a personal attack; i provided notice of that to you above. You have told me on my Talk page that you find my behavior problematic. That was the right forum in which to initially address your concern. I told you that i heard you. If you see that I continue the behavior, you can bring me to a notice board if you like. Please stop discussing contributors on the article Talk page; please do not canvass about this either. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I did not use any ad hominem attacks, foul language, sexist, racist or otherwise illegal language, etc. I simply pointed out the behavior of the editors, not any specific editors themselves. Those who are concerned about GMO's have often noted the problem, and as I pointed out to you, you have treated them unkindly for doing it, and ultimately they have been chased off the GMO pages. I was even more surprised you have taken the bold step of even censoring my comments and concerns which are valid and relevant to the article's lack of NPOV and bias. Such censorship seems to me unethical--it has never happened to me on Misplaced Pages: People have disagreed on talk pages, but never have I seen a user censored like that. The obvious problem with such censorship is that then only your opinion survives--even on the talk page. It's a kind of authoritarian rule that I think is very un-Wikipedian that silences reasonable dissent.

Your response above is somewhat misleading. When I pointed out your problematic behavior, you did not respond by saying "I heard you"--that language preceded the concerns I raised about Alexlikescats. Your response to the concerns I raised about your behavior was to strike out everything you ever said to me on my talk pages here, which I said was pretty childish. You also immediately archived all your talk, so no one might inadvertently see what I said--sneaky. I do appreciate, however, this far more mature response acknowledging the concerns I raised that I do think have been a very big problem and I hope are not continued.David Tornheim (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not going to continue this back and forth, as you are distorting what I did and said. It seems to me that the more I say, the more I give you to distort. So there is really no point in continuing, except to say that I disagree with just about everything you say above. Jytdog (talk) 02:26, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

On Canvassing

Contacting another editor about a page they are already working on is hardly ever seen as canvassing, though on contentious pages, I suggest you (1)start new user page conversations with only one other editor at a time (2) avoid calls to action of the 'we should do x' variety, (3) speak about groups of editors generally and avoid specifically mentioning one editor, even by insinuation, i.e. 'lead editor'. In my experience, if you follow these points and are generally civil it would be almost impossible for anyone to bring admin action against you for user or talk page comments, either on the grounds of canvassing or 'personal attack'. As Jytdog has said above, article talk pages should be used to discuss the article. If you have advice for another editor, their user page is the place. If you feel things are getting heated or personal, taking a day away from editing to reflect can be a good thing. Dialectric (talk) 15:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Isn't Jytdog's behavior of intimidating new people who come to the page who are not Pro-GMO problematic? It seems to me very un-Wikipedian and tantamount to canvassing, and others have complained as well, and have successfully been chased off the GMO articles. I don't know the best way to address selective bullying on pages, especially by experienced users who know the system and have loyalties with the judicial decision-makers. Those decision-makers may not be very objective in holding an abuser--who is their friend--accountable, instead blaming the abused for inviting the abuse (like when men say a woman caused the man to behave badly by wearing a sexy outfit). So when I point out the behavior, the bullying, in fact, only gets worse; the bully doesn't see the problem. I was completely shocked that my comment on the talk page was censored and Jytdog has made it clear he is committed to preventing my concern to see the light of day on the talk page (where I believe it belongs), so that now only the comments from people who share his/her POV will be visible--even on the talk page! I've never seen anything like that on Misplaced Pages before. Is censoring on the talk page like that even permissible? David Tornheim (talk) 19:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages, often framed as 'the encyclopedia anyone can edit', is, in certain areas, becoming the encyclopedia where only confident experts can edit. This trend extends beyond GMO articles. See the way the guideline (not policy) WP:MEDRS has been applied to a wide range of health articles. This may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on one's perspective, but it is a trend I've noticed, and one aspect of this trend is the disencouragement of some new editors. Intimidating new editors is bad regardless of who is doing it, but I am unaware of any admin actions taken against someone for aggressive but policy-based responses to new editors.

In regard to 'judicial decision-makers', the final say comes down to admins, and there are enough admins that personal friendships will hold little sway over the outcome of a WP:ANI proceeding, for instance. The key to making use of the wiki-judicial system is a thorough knowledge of wikipedia policy and precident, again a major obstacle for new editors. While Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering is discouraged, what that term constitutes is something of a gray area and experienced users can definitely leverage the system to their own ends. If you are willing to waste a few hours wading through archives, you can often find examples where an experienced editor violates the same policies he or she stridently enforces elsewhere.

Removing personal attacks from a talk page is permissible, usually only done in clearcut cases - see WP:RPA.Dialectric (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again for your response. I will look at Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering. Where is the proper forum to raise the issue of unreasonable censorship? David Tornheim (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a clear answer to your proper forum question. You may be able to answer for yourself looking over Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. It could be that the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard is what you are looking for, though you will have to decide that. In general if you see behavior which is contrary to policies, one approach would be to make a note of the diff off-wiki for personal use, then when you have compiled several which show a pattern of behavior by a user or WP:GANG, take that to WP:ANI. Administrators are more likely to respond to a pattern of behavior than a single breach of policy. Dialectric (talk) 02:19, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

As I have said several times, the best way to deal with a behavior issue is to bring it up directly and politely with the user on their talk page, and if you don't get satisfaction, go to a noticeboard. See WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE, which is indeed in WP:DR. Jytdog (talk) 02:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

edit war warning

Please be particularly aware that Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. While edit warring on Misplaced Pages is not acceptable in any amount and can lead to a block, breaking the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. Jytdog (talk) 19:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Behavior at Genetic Engineering

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor then please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Misplaced Pages's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please ensure you are familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive, until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively could result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you.

In addition to edit warring warning above, this diff appears as pretty strong WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on your part. It's generally considered very disruptive to make a new edit, have it reverted, and refuse to reach consensus on it by instead trying to edit war it back in. The onus is on you to justify the new change. In such a case when your edit is reverted, you need to go to the talk page to convince other editors it should be made if you really want to push forward with the content. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:56, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I have no attachment to the sentences and have no desire for a "battleground". I didn't restore them because I feel a strong need for them to be in the article, but only because they were deleted without a valid reason and without any mention on the talk page. It was my understanding that if you choose to revert without a valid reason in the comments, you MUST provide an explanation on the talk page, and that without it, the user can safely revert it back until a valid reason is given or the matter is discussed. Perhaps, I misunderstood the rule. And if so, I'm sorry. Now that Jytdog has followed what I understand the process to be--of bringing a valid objection for the material--I am fine with it being omitted. I think it is important that we collaborate rather than to have one side reverting without giving any Misplaced Pages reason for the reverts. David Tornheim (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

my edit note read "not accurate. ancient source" which is shorthand for what I wrote at length on the Talk page. here. you continue to misrepresent me, which is yet another violation of the WP:TPG, which says (bolding from the original) "Do not misrepresent other people:" Jytdog (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Why the new allegations? I did not misrepresent you. I said you did not give valid reasons and I stand behind that. Saying an RS is "too old" is not a valid reason to reject an article if you do not offer to add a more recent source that is more to the point. Sometimes an old RS is the only thing available or is the best RS. Saying it is "not accurate" is not a valid reason either. That is little more that WP:OR. If you are going to say it is "not accurate", you have to back that up with a convincing argument that is supported by RS. I don't understand why you wish to continue to argue and lodge new allegations. I don't see what purpose that serves. We seem to have come to an agreement that I will be more specific about an RS I intend to add, and you will not simply revert new material without giving a valid reason for rejecting it. That is collaboration. Why don't we move forward and focus on making the article better rather than create new allegations and drama over a matter that is settled? David Tornheim (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

No new allegations. i consider the matter done. but i always write edit notes when i am editing articles, and i try to be communicative in them; the reason i put in my edit note is the same reason (more briefly stated) i gave on talk. I gave a valid reason - the reason you ultimately accepted - in my edit note. You have now written a number of times that I did not give a valid reason in my edit note. I chose to respond to that, and i name it for what it is - misrepresenting what I wrote and what i did. you went there, i responded. i am done. If you edit war again, that is on you. Jytdog (talk) 23:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Re: Public relations

I hope we can all take seriously the continuing and expanding problem of industry PR and work together to address the problem before we lose even more honest unpaid editors and the public starts to lose confidence in Misplaced Pages for failing to keep this COI behavior in check.

It's not very helpful to discuss and tackle such large problems. Stick to the small ones, and if the little problems become little success stories, then you'll get one large success, which is what you want. So start small and work on a micro level. One thing you don't want to do is start off by shooting yourself in the foot. In other words, don't cite people and things like Sharyl Attkisson (an anti-vaxxer), TEDx (zero credibility, as anyone can participate), or Michael Crichton (a climate change denier). So you guys have pretty much done more to shoot down your own argument than anyone else. Don't just vet your sources, vet your own arguments. If it doesn't pass the smell test, then discard it and start fresh. And as always, follow the money. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Did you watch the video? She really isn't an "anti-vaxer" as far as I can tell. David Tornheim (talk) 01:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Look, she personally uses the tag "anti-vaccine" on her blog posts. Let's not argue about the silly stuff. She's clearly anti-vaccine, whether you agree with or disagree with her position. And why the heck is she even being used here? Like I said, vet your sources and your arguments. Then, when you come to the table for an argument, you'll be prepared. Before arguing with other people, argue with yourself. Furthermore, complaining about public relations on Jimbo's page is a waste of your time. Viriditas (talk) 01:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

some good advice, V. Jytdog (talk) 01:38, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

oh, i just saw what prompted you to write that. oh my. Jytdog (talk) 01:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Viriditas. I looked over all the drama on her talk page accusing her of being anti-vaccine, and her responses from her agents strongly saying she is not, even calling it "libelous", which got her agents IP addresses blocked for indirectly threatening legal action. I did read someone say her blog said "anti-vaccine" but I don't think they pointed to the blog, so I thought they just made it up. Although I tend to think the benefits of vaccines generally outweigh net dangers, I don't think anyone who has concerns of possibly side effects, etc. should be immediately repudiated as a quack, WP:Fringe, "loon", "conspiracy theorist", etc. Many medicines have negative side effects, and I have no reason to believe vaccines are any different, and just because the potential benefit is very high, that does not mean all risks, no matter how bad, should be completely ignored and the makers of the vaccines are able to produce them with complete impunity. So, in a sense, it's really the same problem. We need an honest assessment of the risks, not a rhetoric that "vaccines are always good" or "vaccines are always bad" kind of false-dilemma... David Tornheim (talk) 01:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I struck out that part above, as I'm not interested in whether she's anti-vaccine or simply covers anti-vaccine stories. That someone was Paul Offit and his comments on Democracy Now! several weeks ago put the issue to rest. We need people to get vaccinated. Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Disussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Canvassing_and_hounding_with_allegations_of_bad_faith_on_GMO. Jytdog (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

the reason why

So, I finally wrote down why I backed out of our discussion, over at ANI. You made guesses above, which you seem to believe are accurate but are simply your fantasies. You continued in that line in your response at ANI, where you mischaracterized what I wrote about why I did what I did.

• here is what I wrote:

I had a very long interaction with David in the leadup to this, (which was prompted by my noticing one of his canvassing messages b/c it was written on a page I watch; I became aware of the others only later). In that interaction I explained how the GMO articles came to be as they are, discussed how COI is and has been discussed and dealt with by the en-WP community, discussed how concerns about behavior are handled in WP, and urged him many times to focus on content, not contributors, nor their motivations - that this is what we do in WP. I grew increasingly worried by things that David wrote in that interaction, and my worries were realized in this message on my Talk page, which to be honest, freaked me out. I realized I had a stalker who a) does not understand how WP works at all (we identify reliable sources, craft content from them based on PAG, and discuss them - we do not speculate endlessly on what motivated this or that editor to do or say what... and that message was the fruit of, and 100% committed to, analysis of (guessed-at) motivations of contributors, all explained with great confidence. yikes.) and b) was really, really committed to his conspiratorial, convoluted POV about me. I replied appropriately (and I meant it) that I would be more careful to welcome new editors going forward. I then struck my interactions with him on my Talk page, apologizing for having bothered him (which I meant). And I archived my Talk page and reduced my User page to a minimum. And went to his Talk page and likewise struck my remarks there and apologized to him again. I have never had a stalker before; it is a weird feeling.

• you characterized this as follows:

Jytdog admits in the box (show more detail above), that s/he 'freaked' out and struck out ALL the correspondence between us and archived all discussion. I don't think that is a mature way to address the very relevant concern I had raised.

You are not dealing with what I wrote. Please actually read it. Your behavior freaked me out. I also acknowledged that I see your perspective on new editors (which is different from agreeing with it - I do see it) I sought the ANI to give you a warning to stop harassing/stalking me and to teach you that canvassing/campaigning is not OK in WP. I am hopeful you will get that warning and the lesson. In any case, if you continue the behavior, you will build up yet more evidence and it will end up being enough to have action taken against you. You will do as you will. Jytdog (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)