Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:40, 28 March 2015

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

The issue in a nutshell

I will take "Cli-Fi (disambiguation)" as a title for a new stub, and I will stop pestering the learned professor here whose views i respect but disagree with. Can't we all get along? Admins please note i am NOT ID'ing Professor just calling her professor in friendly avuncuealr way. I am 65, she is about 50 so i can do that. (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

If anyone feels it is an invasion of privacy to say i know her last name begins with a certain letter and has a total of so many letters in it, I will take this down but note . THERE! I JUST DID . (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Professor X, lets be friends and talk about like matture adults.(Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Her M.0.? to undermine my work with cli fi, why the eff does she care what I am doing? Do i critizsne or mitigate her academic papers? No, i let her be. She should let me be. the soltuion is give me my page back with titel or give ne new page with new title and separate the learned PHD Dr x and Mr Bachelros Degree Only Dan. Her m.o.? Mitigationg in tandem with anti cli fi forces to denigrate and try to downgrade my own life work. Why the animus on her part? What gives? (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).(Chiayi77 (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Wrong about my identity again. I've written to the administrators about your detailing of personal information. Uncool. Who the heck is Professor W?LynnS79 (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I see you are beginnign to have a sense of humour here, Profesor X. i mean when you write UNCOOL and who the heck is so and so? so we are makign progres. i dare say you are warming up to me as a friend. future friend. i see it coming. (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Well, I said the first time i mentioned my google pages tellng me the x name but since you said it is not you, then my entire theory goes down the drain and i apologize. It would be a lot easier if you would jsut trust me and interact with me by email. But i realize are afraid to do so. So I dont see any movement on that front. Oh well, I give up, Professr X, adn teh X stnads for i have NO IDEA who yuou are iwll stop tryuing. But i fouind a post that this other PRofessr W left on a certaion anti cti cli blog in yr part of the world and the post was about the NEW YORKER article she added the linl and signed her named LYNN, and it appead as if the curaotra nd LYNN know each other but i see i was wrong. you know what. i am just goint o stop posting here abecausei keep putting my foot in my mouth inadvertently but i do. s sorry LYHM i was wrong again. I am will stop start ignoreing you and wait for the adrbiostn opeople to deicde how to diby this page up. i like it better now, they aded the CLI FI REPRO link and now and also Mary;s link. So cool. in many weays, we are taking two steps foweard and trhee steps back but then sudfdenly there is step way hforwadf like ten steps forward and there is progres,., so i like whawt is ha

Home improvement (disambiguation)

Just as the Home Improvement page has this kind of title, one way to solve the ongoing dispute here between a certain professor and a certain climate activist would be to let the professor keep this page as her own bailiwock, and allow the activist to have a page titled "Cli-Fi (disambiguation).

Deleted. How is this relevant to climate fiction?LynnS79 (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh Professor, i only put taht up there so you and the admins could VISUALIZE waht a sepate cli fi page might look like, because that is diretion we are going on. You wont budge. i wont budhge. lets the arbs beging!@ (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Cli-fi (disambiguation)

Example above header: Re:Just as the Home Improvement page has this kind of title, one way to solve the ongoing dispute here between a certain professor and a certain climate activist would be to let the professor keep this page as her own bailiwock, and allow the activist to have a page titled "Cli-Fi (disambiguation). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiayi77 (talk • contribs) 04:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Deleted. Personal attacks not allowed, and Wiki policy doesn't allow two articles on the same subject.LynnS79 (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Professor you sound like you dont undestand how the internet works. I didnt post those items to stay up . i psoted them to maek a point. Sahying you want your own bailiwick is not a personal attack for crying out loud? You are senstibve and i like senitige peopel and i empath3athise with sensitive people but mu god, wanting your own bailicik is not a personal ATTACK. are you tone deaf to languge? just asking, i am not attacking yio but i am sure you tell admins he is tatacking ma gain and saying i am tone deaf? i am not sahying youa re done deaf. I am asking ARE YOU TONE DEAF ABOUT LEANGUGAE? you amagazine me profesosr x but i see now yiou are harmless and a good eggg, so i am going to stop fighjtiong you here, let yuou have yoyur waym, and get mh won page later. We are both working for the same goal. So be it. Good to you and have a happ life my Wiki pal. (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Propose putting a dunce hat on my head, I deeply apologize to Professor W.

TO START: Professor W, do you accept my apology or not? It is important for you say you accept my apology or that you don't accept it.

MEA CULPA! MEA CULPA! LynnS79, after a week or so of walking around in a daze here when I first say my hard work on the cli fi article being wiki-jacked (I felt, but it turns out I was wrong as you will see as I keep writing)...I apologzie to you, humbly, sincerely. I was completely wrong about you, Professor W. and I wrote the wrong things, I will take down everything I wrote that was based on my own misperceptions, mea culpa. Really.

I woke up about all this a few hours ago at home when i was quietly reading on my iPhone screen your recent comments here, about me not knowing who you are, that in fact we had never met, and that in fact I did not know your name, and FINALLY, duh, it sunk in: I had made a collassal mistake in taking you for someone else and thinking I knew your real name etc.

MEA CULPA: In fact, i now realize after reading your new coments today, and my brain slowing down enougn to read your words carefully, and to step back from the fray and read slowly as i sat on the sofa... I was wrong about you and i apologize. I don't know you, I never met you, i do not know your name, I really apologize for mixing things up. I was wrong. I apologize.

...

Tell me what happens next.

Cheers, Dan Bloom aka Ciyai77 (Chiayi77 (talk) 11:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)).

Propose renaming title of article to "Cli-Fi (disambiguation)"

Matthew Dann MaDann at Talk Wiki, Misplaced Pages information team info-en@wikimedia.org is monitoring this not-neutrual brouhaha over this page of climate change fiction, and he wrote to me today: Dear Dan Bloom,

You need to follow the onwiki dispute resolution process - those edits were made outside my OTRS capacity, so I'm unable to help mentor the dispute.
Yours sincerely,
Matthew Dann....User:Chiayi77|Chiayi77]] (talk) 05:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)).

And DGG, the main editor here, who was the person who pushed the Wiki control edit buttons that officialy changed the title of the page from cli fi its present unclear name, and he did this without know the background of the person with an agenda pushing to get name chagned so she could control this page for her own ends, I asked DDG what i could do about her and he said : Dear Dan, vWikipedia works by consensus. All that I or any administrator have power to do is observe what the consensus is and to do what it necessary to enact it. I'm sorry, but this is not really my field in any case, andI am not going to involve myself further, except to repeat my advice, which is general advice from many years working on many sort of articles: in disputes of this sort, the best way to proceed is to add content, and only after substantial content is added, then raise the question of dividing the article.

.... Sincerely DGG. (Chiayi77 (talk) 05:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)).

Note that Chiayi77 deleted Talk history (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Climate_fiction&action=history), specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Climate_fiction&diff=653844467&oldid=653844433, where I support the reasoning behind the MPR article indeed being about a genre. See the following two paragraphs:LynnS79 (talk) 04:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

GOOD LINK cli fi term at @MPRnews : Cli-Fi meet, reality." not speaking of 'genre' but as 'cultural prism' http://blogs.mprnews.org/updraft/2015/03/climate-cast-earths-lungs-inhaling-less-carbon/ SEE? there is more here than just YOUR work. Be democratic and let others speak. Not just your POV. You have your right to speak, so do we. That is democracy.(Chiayi77 (talk) 03:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)).

I finally had a chance to look at the article that you referenced, and that sentence clearly ties ci-fi with the climate fiction film "Day After Tomorrow", which does mean that the reference is talking about genre. It's clear to me that the sentence is saying: Oh look, a fictional scenario could be reality. The fictional scenario is cli-fi, or climate fiction. I am not sure what you mean by cultural prism other than fictional works allow us to see our connection to the world--if this is the case, this is part of the broad reality of fiction, and in this case, this particular genre. I don't understand what you mean by letting others speak. I have not stopped anyone from speaking, in fact hope that this article has more voices and input. I would ask you to point out anywhere that I've "not allowed others to speak". Please tell me how I'm doing this, or redact your baseless claims. And who is "we"? You are the only one who has tried to intimidate with personal attacks. I am trying to clean up this article, which is a very important topic in today's world. LynnS79 (talk) 15:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Rationale for Removing Sections of renamed CLIMATE FICTION article

Removed the Cli-Fi Term section as it contradicts what media (see "Sources" section here in the Renaming section in the Talk area), such as the New York Times, NPR, and several other big media, have reported about cli-fi: it is an abbreviation or shortening of climate fiction. Introduced two sources where , who has suddenly said that cli-fi is not an abbreviation of climate fiction, actually reported that it was very recently. If these articles are suddenly revised, I will provide further resources. signed Lynns79

Cleaned up several sections of the renamed "climate fiction" article

LynnS79, would it possible to chat with you offline via email? I appreciate the time and energy you have put in here, and I know climate fiction genre is important to you. I do not know who you, but I would like to chat offline. Is it possible that we could chat by email some day soon?. I am more than happy to give you my address. RSVP Chiayi77 (Chiayi77 (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)).

I am not interested in anything but improving this article. After having read your comments last night on this wiki page which confused me with someone else ... please allow myself and others to honestly and positively try to improve this article. It strongly needs independent voices. I think it would help if you stepped back and allowed this article some consistency and non-contradictory statements and references. As it stands, this article has been confusing (in fact, one of my students led me here to begin with due to the confusion it causes), and I've been trying to improve it since.§

So Lynn, OKAY. I will step back. Good advice.(Chiayi77 (talk) 02:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)).

I will step back now. I agree. But let's keep talking.(Chiayi77 (talk) 03:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

No, I have never emailed you at all. I am not sure what you are referring to. Edit, it appears that my talk section above was edited to say "email exchange". Whoever did that also put in four dots for an ellipsis, something I wouldn't do! I have edited my talk comment above back to what it said initially, that I read comments HERE on the wiki page. Please do not edit my talk comments. It's unprofessional and probably against Misplaced Pages's rules. LynnS79 (talk) 23:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)LynnS79 (talk) 00:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Wiki admins -- another example here of being bullied. I have never emailed him. I told him this yesterday, but he keeps referring to me as someone else. LynnS79 (talk) 03:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Lynn, if it felt to u as if i was bullying you, i apologize and while I am not a bully and feel for sure I was not bullying you, if it FELT to you like I was, then it was doing the wrong kind of dance and I apologize. I was just dancing around trying to find out who my nemesis where was, but now i realize it's just you, Lynn, a professor somewhere, with students who alsoc are about climte issues and good editing at wiki, and so I apologize deeply for my actions that caused you to feel aniety online, i nmever meant for that to happen, I was just trying to trick someone who I thogight weas lurkign here into makign a mistake and gfiving awau the game. shje never appeaered. you have now set me straighjt anmd aplogize fot thje unforflotable feelings i cause. I am on ur side whenm it comes to women online and stalkign issues. Funnu, i thoughjt THJAT PERSON, the otehr person, WAS stalkingt me, I was Sure, That is how far gone i was. I have recovered. I admit i was wrong. MEA CULPA.signed DAN

Lynn, i see yr point here. Here on this page you are always LynnS79 and anon names are useful, especially in this crazy world of internet spam and privacy invasion. nice to know you here now. Cheers, and so I will always be Chiayi77. Fun! *** P.S.- Yes i removed the earlier comments from last night as I did not want to appear libelous or invasive of your privacy and took them down from this page. I respect yr privacy, of course. So i took all that down ... I am on your side, you are doing good, important work here. Glad to be aboard as occasional lurker here. signed (Chiayi77 (talk) 02:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Again, you have me confused with someone else? We have never communicated by email before. I am having trouble following your logic here, and no, people at Wiki are free to remain anonymous as they wish. This helps avoid private stalking and such, which I have dealt with in the past and don't wish to again.LynnS79 (talk) 23:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Admins, another example.LynnS79 (talk) 03:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Admins and Lynn, USER CHIAYI77, Lynn is correrct. I was incorrecltyu confusing her with someone else not even on this apge at all. My bad, my confusion, my stupiditiy from which i awoke today. I also fight against stalkers omlinme or anhywhere, it breaks my heart what some men to to women, and I am on Lynn's side here. NO STALKING, EVer. If i made her feel uncofmtable with some of my stupid comments, i was wrong. MEA CULPA. signed by dan bloom

I know that Misplaced Pages works by consensus and I am all for that. I am also aware that nobody owns any page, and I agree with that. And I understand the role of administrators and mods is to observe what the consensus is and to do what it necessary to enact it. Although I disagree with the renaming of this article, and feel that I was sort of herded into agreeing to the name change due to my not understanding some peoples wisj to delete the entire page if a name change was not agreed upon in one week -- ouch!! -- but c'est la vie and we need to work around this. So my resolution now is to take the general advice I have heard from mods and admins who from many years have worked on many sort of articles: in disputes of this sort. I agree that the best way to proceed wit this now is to add content and only after substantial content is added, then I can raise the question of dividing the article whereby this article will remain titled Climate Ficiton and a new article will be titled Cli-Fi (genre) or Cli-Fi (disambiguation). I'm aboard with that, LynnS79. Are you? Signed Chiayi 77(Chiayi77 (talk) 10:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)).

Climate fiction and cli-fi are one in the same. Today I added references where you have said so yourself. I want to also point out that I did not railroad you into deleting this article. I proposed that it would be deleted, due to its ongoing problematic nature. But, to be kind, I also proposed that it be renamed and offered that as a better suggestion. I did not give you a week to delete the article; this is Misplaced Pages's policy, not mine. §

Lynn, u are right and i stand corrected. You never railraoded me on this , no one did. I was over reacting, one of my negative charaacgtersics and i apoligze ,.

Lynn, we have a teeny tiny difference of POV on whether climate fiction and cli fi are one in the same. You say yes, I say no. Never the twain shall meet on this one, , but this is your page now and I respect you and the way you are handling all this, so yes for this page, i will abide by the "climate fiction a and cli fi are one in the same" mantra. And Lynn, I am sorry if I misunderstood you earlier last week when I "felt" from your comments that you were forcing a change in this article title by saying, but merely proposing that it would be deleted, due to its ongoing problematic nature. But, to be kind, are you are a kind person, i know, you also proposed that this page be renamed and offered that as a better suggestion. Which was in fact a better suggestion! I was reading online too fast, with my macular degeneration eyes, so I got ti wrong. In fact, you did not give me a week to delete the article; that is Misplaced Pages's policy, not yours. So I do apologize for my rush to judgment. Sorry. All good now. Cool. and i love wiki and and i love DGG and I love MaDann. signed by (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Well, I added two sources where you yourself said that cli-fi is the abbreviation for climate fiction, so, really, my sources are what you and other popular media reporters have said. I'm not developing a personal PoV just for the heck of it.LynnS79 (talk) 23:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Lynn, just for the record. But not to argue. I see yr points. But please listen: i created cli fi not as a genre term for novels written before 2007 but for what i hope will be novels written in the future amd a few of them these new cli fi novels are now appaering am,ong them ANCHOR POINT by Alice Robinson in Australia and the upcoimg THE WATER KNIFE by Paolo B im May. So please understand, cli fi, as i created it, set it up as a new concept, CONCEPT, not a genre term, is for things to come. I was and am trying to change the world. SMILE.Kidding. sort if. signed the NEW CHIAYI 77.

Moved people working in the field to the opening section of the article. These people could be in a separate section. I alphabetized them to be fair and just. Note that too many authors, writers, movers, and shakers are working in this genre for it to focus only on Dan Bloom, so I added others I could think of off the top of my head who have been working hard to write novels or curate works in this field. This has never been a solo effort; let's not go there again. There are many others working in this field, and they should be listed here and perhaps moved to a new section.

LynnS79, good idea, and i agree with the direction you are going in. The alphabet way was good way to go, and yes, this has never been a solo effort, i never said that, the damn media just finds my name online and quotes me and uses my name in cli fi news stories bot of course, i am just one small player in a much larger group effort. Oh, maybe my initial cli fi informal PR efforts with NPR and the NYT and the Guardian and other media outlets helped set up a climate whereby all this could happen, but never a solo effort, and now the entire climate fiction genre thing has grown by leaps and bounds, and as a mere obsersver now, my PR days are pretty much over, as is my three score and ten, as an observer of what you and others are doing with the climate fiction meme, i say bravo, a hundred times bravo. I always saw my role as background PR guy to get the media engines started, and nothing else. Now there is a hgue team in place, and I watching you guys from my home far far away with contentment and praise. So yes, keep my name out of things here. I dont' seek publicity, believe it or not, I just use it to further the ends i had in mind. Which is where we are now with this good page. (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Cleaned up the history and origins section as well--grammar issues and clarification needed.§

EDITED: I like the new content. signed, Chiayi77 aka Dan Bloon — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiayi77 (talk • contribs) 02:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Changed first sentence

The first sentence was: "Cli-fi (or "cli fi") is short for climate fiction, a subgenre of science fiction that focuses on the Earth's climate, in particular emphasizing the effects of anthropogenic climate change and global warming at the end of the Holocene era." I changed it because (a) no evidence is presented that the sources consider this a subgenre of science fiction (instead of, say, thriller or fantasy or historical); (b) no evidence is presented that the sources consider that the subject must be about the Earth's climate (instead of, say, the planet Orbus as in Winterson's novel); (c) the Holocene hasn't ended; (d) Ballard's novel is about climate change, not anthropogenic climate change. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Disagree - LynnS79 says Misplaced Pages does not use slang, nicknames or jargon, but she is wrong. Both lab lit and chick lit articles on on Misplaced Pages. I would suggest that this article be renamed once more to "Cli-Fi" (genre}... or "Cli-Fi (disambiguation) and to continue that way. signed dan bloom

I quoted someone else for saying this. See "Can we rename the article to "climate fiction"? Because as an encyclopedia, we do not use slang, nicknames or jargon. Even the term "Sci fi" is common, but it's article is titled "Science fiction". Kailash29792 (talk) 11:04, 10 October 2014 (UTC)" in this Talk area.§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs)

I see now. You did not say that, someone else here at Talk did. Sorry, I misunderstood. thanks for clarification. But it's true that new genres and neolgisims like lab lit and chieck lit DO have their own articles here, and the mods have assured me now that as things pick up, I can get a new article focusing just in the cli fi motif as cultural prism and media headline term, not as a literary genre per se. does that sound good? Our pages can then complement each other. Compliment, too! (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Propose renaming

Diagree with the name change. While other poster here says Misplaced Pages does not use slang, nicknames or jargon, he or she is wrong. Both lab lit and chick lit articles on on Misplaced Pages. I would suggest that this article be renamed back to to "Cli-Fi (genre)" or "Cli-Fi (disambiguation)" and to continue that way. And if LynnS79 wishes to create an article about climate fiction, which she likes so much, I for one will read it. But please, dear mods, let the Cli-Fi article revert back to either its orignal title or a new one with either (genre) or (disambiguation) after the term itself. And here's why: Cli-fi IS the genre. Cli Fi is not an abbreaviation for climate fiction. The article was titled Cli Fi originally because it was about a new genre called Cli-fi, not a genre called Climate Fiction. It seems very few posters here understand this: cli fi is not a subgenre and it is not a nickame or an abbneviation. IT is a standalone genre called CLi-Fi on its own. That is what the article was about. Maybe I need to be more clear about this. But everyone seems to rush to judgment before hearing the real backstory. The media reports are just general reports and they rarely get cli fi right. That is what the original article was about. signed, Chiayi77 aka Dan Bloon my real name.

I have provided a list of big media who report cli-fi as an abbreviation of climate fiction, including two articles in which you, yourself, claimed this to be true. Nobody's rushing to judgment. I, for one, am trying to be rational and logical and providing references to everything I edit. You may, of course, have your own opinion about what climate fiction is, or isn't, but, to me, and this is my personal opinion, you have contradicted yourself in the media often about this genre, and this back-and-forth has also been reflected here in this article. It makes those of us actually working in this genre want to improve this article. The bottom line it seems is that you are trying very hard to promote a label called "cli-fi" and focusing on it rather than the actual genre of works within climate fiction. The latter is what is worthy of a Misplaced Pages article, not a simple abbreviation, which you are focusing on. This article needs fundamental structure that gets away from your abbreviation to the actual genre itself. What's happening in the world of cli-fi IS wonderful, but you have to focus on it and quit making the majority of focus on the abbreviation--because it's just not that important. Can you agree? §

Lynn, after this very good chat above, see all comments new today, I ...whole...heartedly...can agree. And I am aboard with this new page and new chapter in our friendship. Go go go. signed (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Can we rename the article to "climate fiction"? Because as an encyclopedia, we do not use slang, nicknames or jargon. Even the term "Sci fi" is common, but it's article is titled "Science fiction". Kailash29792 (talk) 11:04, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

As I pointed out in the section below, I agree. The term climate fiction was there before the label cli-fi. The person claiming to have first abbreviated the phrase cli-fi out of climate fiction twists the focus from the actual work in the genre to himself as the brilliant inventor of this new genre. It's a false claim that needs to stop; the focus needs to be on the growing bundle of this otherwise meaningful literature. In order to take this genre seriously, authors and readers alike need to be presented with an honest and natural evolution of this genre, reported correctly, independently, and fairly, with the focus of the genre itself, not just the term "cli-fi". No one person invented this genre; it came about naturally. § — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree with change to climate fiction. Then the article can focus more on the genre and less on the name. It is worth mentioning the origin and popularisation of the term "cli fi" but that should not be the main focus of the article. Davidreid (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Deleting: It read earlier "David you don't understand yet. Cli-fi is the genre on its own. It is not an abbrevation for climate fiction and never was. The media calls cli fi as climate fiction in many references but this is not accurate. To repeat: cli fi a stand alone genre and should be the focus of artiole ; that it how it started out, but this is where are now, so cool. ALL GOOD. There was some confusion at first but all good now and i more clearly now and I am aboard! Signed Chiayi 77 aka Dan Bloom (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

As I pointed out in the section below, I agree. The term climate fiction was there before the label cli-fi. The person claiming to have first abbreviated the phrase cli-fi out of climate fiction twists the focus from the actual work in the genre to himself as the brilliant inventor of this new genre. It's a false claim that needs to stop; the focus needs to be on the growing bundle of this otherwise meaningful literature. In order to take this genre seriously, authors and readers alike need to be presented with an honest and natural evolution of this genre, reported correctly, independently, and fairly, with the focus of the genre itself, not just the term "cli-fi". No one person invented this genre; it came about naturally. § — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Disagree with renaming

EDITED: I disagree but now i also agree, sort of. SEE COMMENT BELOW HERE:. Media reports erroneously report cli-fi as being shortened from climate fiction. This was not the case. Cli fi is a new standalone genre term on its own. The term is a coinage, and it's also a riff on the sci fi term. It not an abbreviation of climate fiction, never was and never will be, not matter what the media reports. It was never abbreviated at some point in time from the phrase of climate fiction. To claim it was is wrong. Cli fi was born with just five letters and as a standalone term, that stands for itself, and for nothing else. Otherwise, someone might have come up with cli-fic or "climafic." That was not the case. Cli-fi is a term that stands for itself. This needs to be understood and recognized. Someday. Signed by Chiayi77 aka Dan Bloom (Chiayi77 (talk) 10:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)).

I agree. Media reports cli-fi as being shortened from climate fiction. The term is not a coinage. It was simply abbreviated at one point in time from the phrase of climate fiction. To claim otherwise is purely disingenuous.

For some reason LynnS79 does not want to believe that the name of the term addressed in this article is CLI-FI and not climate fiction. So I cannot argue with him or her. When Lynn uses the word "media," which media does she mean? Dozens of media outlets have reported the rise of the cli fi genre, and they have used the word in headlines, too. The term of CLI FI is a coinage. It was never "abbreviated' from the the term climate fiction. It was created as a stand alone term. I know because i was there when it was conceived. SCott Thill also did not abbreviate it from the term Climate Fiction when he used it in his two reports at Wired or on his recent HuffPo piece titled CLI FI IS REAL. This page article, althg Lynn might not like the title, it is the title that best fits since it is about cli fi the new genre and cultural prism rocking the literary world. This article was never about climate fiction. Just as LAb Lit and Chick Lit have their own articles it makes sense that CLI FI should have its own article even if some people don't appreciate the coinage. Let them go elsewhere. I have no idea who this Lynns79 is, male or female, but they are entitled to their POV as I am. Since I originated the article, I believe I should have some say in its title. Otherwise people can go around and start renaming everything. It's not very like Wiki-like of Lynn79 to push this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiayi77 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I would like to point out again the resources we already have about climate fiction that say "cli-fi" is its abbreviation. See the "Sources" list below, which I have already provided. The only resources we have on the subject say that cli-fi is an abbreviation of climate fiction. None say that it is a neologism (that's pushing it) or a stand-alone term--until now--and I feel that this is a ploy to keep the old title, which I and others proposed to rename. Dan Bloom, originator of this article, has, he himself, also said that cli-fi is simply an abbreviation for climate fiction. Here are two such claims he made recently:

• "INTERVIEW: Dan Bloom on CliFi – Climate Fiction". Author of article, David Thorpe. January 27, 2015. Quote by Dan: "Cli-fi is a new genre term for novels, short stories and movies that stands for works of art and storytelling that deal with climate change and global warming concerns: "cli" stands for the first thee letters of climate, and "fi" stands for the first two letters of fiction. Just as sci-fi stands for science fiction, cli-fi stands for what might be called "clience fiction," or novels and movies where climate change is a major theme, although not always the main theme.

• "‘Cli-Fi’ Reaches into Literature Classrooms Worldwide" Author Dan Bloom. Claim in article: "Cli-fi is a catchy abbreviation for the genre of “climate fiction,” much in the same way that “sci-fi” is a nickname for “science fiction.” March 10, 2015.§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

LynnS79, yes, good sources, and i see your point. But you need to understand something: Lynn, I am not sure if you understand how newspapers and media reporters work. Sometimes I do say, and have said, in order to help explain and introduce the cli-fi term to readers or reporters who may be hearing for the first time, that to help them and reportters and editors, see what I am doing with cli-fi term, I do say, sometimes, as an explainer, that cli-fi is an abbreviatoon of the two words climate fiction. Of course cli comes from cli-mate and fi comes from fi-ction, so I Do SOMETIMES say that and it helps readers grasp the news story better. I dont mind being quoted that way if it helps the story read better. Sure. But I *never* have said or say that cli fi is an abrreviation of the climate fiction TERM, never have said that. Because cli fi was not set up that way. It was set up as a stand alone genre TERM, for use, first, for media workers and headline writers and newspaper editors, and secondly for general readers. Cli fi was not set up to create a new genre. It was first set up as a media and headline term. It caught on! Now it's real. Now it's all over the media and has taken on a life of its own. ....Lynn, the more I hear from you here, the more i feel I've known you like for a long time. Did we ever know each other in some past life? SMILE. (Chiayi77 (talk) 02:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Being a reader all my life, I am aware of how media works. Thanks for pointing out I'm not aware, I guess. I have provided multiple sources--as has this article (and other people addressing this article) about climate fiction, which is what this article is about. You are continuing to focus on the abbreviation, cli-fi, which I hope is resolved as unnecessary to expand upon more than it already is. I'm not saying it shouldn't be part of the article, but it shouldn't be the focus. You cannot own this term, sorry. Climate fiction is something written independently by authors, is it not? Do they write because you made up an abbreviation one day, because you have your own ideas about the genre? No, absolutely not. Can they, and the authors who have written about climate change, going back to the 1970s, before you came along, use this genre name? Of course. It's only reserved for authors after your divine conceptional idea? Preposterous. Misplaced Pages is very clear about no one person controlling articles or making up their own rules about terms. I can see, going through the revisions, that you yourself have changed the wording so much it contradicts itself after a while. This article is not yours to control. Misplaced Pages is very clear about the freedom to provide multiple citations and having various experts to come to compromise on an article. You are basically saying that you made the term up one day and created the concept, but you haven't. Climate change in art and literature is a natural response to what's happening in our world--it is not a response to your abbreviation a phrase at some point in time. Misplaced Pages is also very clear on stating out policies against personal attacks; there are still places in this Talk section, after your mea culpa, that you insinuate you were not trying to attack me but were trying to make someone (who you thought was myself) look badly. That does not belong here, and shame on you for using Misplaced Pages for personal attacks on anyone, including me. This was, what you might call an experiment in my classroom, in showing my students the democratic and independent source-use of Misplaced Pages. All I can say is that this was the worst example of how Misplaced Pages should work, and your rantings are embarrassing. LynnS79 (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Sources:

• Winnipeg Free Press: Are We Getting Warmer? "Climate fiction -- or cli-fi -- is a growing branch of speculative fiction that's been gaining popularity."
• Publishing Perspectives: Why Climate Fiction Has Gone Viral "Climate activists view climate fiction, or “cli-fi” for short, as a “hot” new genre designed to wake up the public to the dangers of global warming."
• Vice: Behold the Rise of Dystopian Cli-Fi "And now, evidently, we've got cli-fi. Short for "climate fiction," the term was first coined by Dan Bloom, a Taiwan-based blogger in 2007 as part of an ill-fated effort to market an e-book called Polar City Red, a dystopian story about Alaskan climate refugees."
• Earth Magazine, Books: A changing literary climate "Writers like Rich are crafting a new literary genre: climate-fiction, or cli-fi."
• Next Nature: Visualizing the Tropes of Climate Fiction "As fears about global warming become ever more culturally ingrained, “climate fiction” has gone from a once-fringe genre to a standard literary device. Cli-Fi, as it’s abbreviated, is set in a near or long-term future where the fallout from global warming, be it flooding or mass extinctions, is not only apparent, but an aspect of everyday life."
• University of Nottingham, Climate Fiction: The anticipation and exploration of plausible futures "A few days ago Paul Collins asked me whether an emerging fictional genre, namely climate fiction or cli-fi, could help engage people with climate change."
• University of Copenhagen: Fiction prepares us for a world changed by global warming "Climate fiction, or simply cli-fi, is a newly coined term for novels and films which focus on the consequences of global warming." — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Lynn, i hate to say this but i will take a chance you will understand my humor. Now that i know you are just Lynn anon and NOT some person IO had mistook yuou for, and mea celpa, i ust say that you sound like an old fashioned school marm -- and you are a man i would say sound like an old fashioned strict high school teacher -- with your SOURCES SAY SOURFES SAY mantra over and over. Lynn, sources are not accuirate. i created cli fi. out of nothing, why don't yuou ask me what cli fi is instead of running to your safe SOURCES and useing them to bolster yuour arugments. ask the true source, me. but even teh media does. i know how this happens, every true pioneer in whatever field has to deal with this. i don't mind. water under the bridge. I soldier on. But don';t use SOURES against me. ASK ME, talk to me . SMILE. signed the NEW DAn bloom — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiayi77 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an old-fashioned school marm, and your further attacks on me are uncalled for. Might I acquaint you with these Misplaced Pages policies at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines?

-Stay objective: Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue. They are a forum to discuss how the points of view of reliable sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral. The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material.

-Deal with facts: The talk page is the ideal place for issues relating to verification, such as asking for help finding sources, discussing conflicts or inconsistencies among sources, and examining the reliability of references. Asking for a verifiable reference supporting a statement is often better than arguing against it.

The policy calls for reliable sources. That's what I presented, unless you are going to say that resources like the New York Times are not accurate but that you are.

-Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page.

You keep commenting on me, or others, not on the content.

-Be concise: Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood. If you need to make a detailed, point by point discussion, see below for how to lay this out.

You have ruined this page by contributing long-winded, barely readable rants.

-No personal attacks: A personal attack is saying something negative about another person. This includes:

--No insults: Do not make ad hominem attacks, such as calling someone an idiot or a fascist. Instead, explain what is wrong with an edit and how to fix it. --Do not threaten people: For example, threatening people with "admins you know" or having them banned for disagreeing with you. Explaining to an editor the consequences of violating Misplaced Pages policies, like being blocked for vandalism, is permitted however.

You make personal attacks and have done the 'ol "admins you know" trick more than once.

-Do not ask for another's personal details

Hello? This whole argument began when I told you no when you asked for my personal details. This is my last response to your behavior before opening an arbitration case, unless you just stop doing this, and that includes breaking other Wiki policies by trying to control articles despite a boat-load of resources that disprove your switching claims about this genre. LynnS79 (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Quoted creators of this term need to be verified or removed from article

There is no clearly cited evidence of either person being the originator of the topic's name. Personal blogs cannot be used as evidence since they can be manually back-dated. If either quoted person can not be verified, propose they be removed as unverifiable statements of opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.249.93.251 (talk) 15:16, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't know where to put this but maybe Lynn can use it somewhere. A writer in Italy, Ugo Bardi, writes: Fiction is the fundamental lens we use to see the world. So, it is not surprising if, in this difficult moment, all sorts of narratives are competing to provide us with an explanation of what's happening around us. Most of these narratives are low level stories telling us whom we should hate and despise, but some are an attempt to bring us to a higher level of understanding of the world, describing the human side of a rapidly (too rapidly) changing world. One such attempt is climate fiction, or cli-fi; the human reaction to climate change. Some think cli-fi could lead us to do something to avoid the worst effects of climate change; but, in the end, fiction is most to be judged on whether it is bad or good. So far, it doesn't seem that cli-fi has produced true masterpieces, but, as Jorge Luis Borges said, human literature is a giant single book of which every story written by someone forms a chapter. Some of these chapters are being added right now under the subtitle of "climate fiction".

(Chiayi77 (talk) 04:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)).

Problematic references and claims

More research needs to be done on when this abbreviation was first used. Films are referenced, but none of the directors has called their movies cli-fi or even climate fiction, only science fiction. Same with the novels. Very few creators of this work recognize the term. Media has only repeated Dan Bloom's claims. This is a phrase he abbreviated one day. Wiki's policies clearly states in deletion policy:

6. "Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions, and articles that are themselves hoaxes (but not articles describing notable hoaxes)" - Not enough reliable sourcing in this article. The author cannot link to his own blog or his own journalism as an independent reliable source. Even the media that has picked this up is just repeating this author's claims without popular nods from authors and directors.

11. "Categories representing overcategorization" See ,

It also clearly states in the rules and policy:

• Notability and referencing. "These include (but are not limited to) books published by vanity presses, self-published 'zines', blogs, web forums, usenet discussions, BBSes, fan sites, vanity websites that permit the creation of self-promotional articles, and other similar venues." Several links and references have been deleted (yet are still added) that simply lead to Dan Bloom's own blogs or articles.

• Things to avoid: "Articles about yourself, your friends, your website, a band you're in, your teacher, a word you made up, or a story you wrote." This entire article is about an abbreviation that the article's author thought of one day and has persistently promoted to media as a new genre. Nothing else.

• Articles that contain different definitions of the topic: "Articles are primarily about what something is, not any term(s). If the article is just about a word or phrase and especially if there are very different ways that a term is used, it usually belongs in Wiktionary. Instead, try to write a good short first paragraph that defines one subject as well as some more material to go with it." This article is just about a phrase. It has gone through a ton of revisions because the phrase is constantly being revisited. This is just an article about an abbreviation, and the person who wrote the article keeps breaking Wiki's policies and changing the definition. What's more, now that the original phrase "climate fiction" (a phrase that was around before the abbreviation), is catching on, it is because multiple authors are independently writing about it and all of them have their own opinions. Most would say that it can be science fiction. Some say it cannot. This entire phrase needs researched, studied, and allowed to breathe instead of Dan Bloom constantly editing this article so that he can claim that the thing he abbreviated (and there's really no proof he was the first to do it) is his own thing. This approach and control is backfiring for many serious authors writing about climate change who want to have their work looked at, instead of the phrase or Dan Bloom.

Example links problems

So far none of the authors or links shown as examples in this article have stated that their works are cli-fi, but they do state that they are science fiction or speculative fiction. I tried to note that to be the case, but Dan kept editing the note to say differently, alluding to the fact that originally these works were called cli-fi, and another edit to say that some of these creators called their works cli-fi. None of these claims are true. This is problematic given that Dan Bloom keeps changing his mind (see revision history) about whether cli-fi is or is not related to sci-fi. Since Mr. Bloom keeps claiming that some authors claim their works are cli-fi, here's some reference to state otherwise. The works do have to do with climate change to an extent, but establishing this term as a genre would require that the authors themselves use the term, which they do not. It does not count that Dan Bloom has assigned this term to others' work in various private blogs, personal media articles that he himself writes, wiki pages that he has edited, the few media that have rewritten his own claims, etc. The authors and creators must agree to call their works this term in order for this Misplaced Pages to claim these as examples as this so-called genre. If we're going to establish a new genre, great, but let's do it with the creators of the work, not as a PR gimmick. Therefore, I will delete these examples that are not agreed far and wide by their own creators to be cli-fi.

• Deluge (1933), directed by Felix Feist Came about in 1933 before the term cli-fi.
• The Drowned World (1962) by JG Ballard Was published in 1962 before the term cli-fi. It is not possible that the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• The Sea and Summer (1987) by George Turner This book also came out before the term cli-fi, so it is not possible that the author could have termed it an unknown phrase.
• A Friend of the Earth (2000) by T.C. Boyle Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• Carbon Dreams (2001) by Susan M. Gaines Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• Forty Signs of Rain (2004) by Kim Stanley Robinson (Science in the Capital series Vol. 1) Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• The Day After Tomorrow (2004), directed by Roland Emmerich Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi. The IMDB page describes it as science fiction. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319262/
• Fifty Degrees Below (2005) by Kim Stanley Robinson (Science in the Capital series Vol. 2) Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• Sixty Days and Counting (2007) by Kim Stanley Robinson (Science in the Capital series Vol. 3) Came out before the term cli-fi. It is not possible the author could have termed it cli-fi.
• Flight Behavior (2012) by Barbara Kingsolver No evidence of Barbara Kingsolver using the term cli-fi anywhere. Amazon calls it political fiction. http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Behavior-Novel-Barbara-Kingsolver/dp/0062124277
• Young Ones (2014) by Jake Paltrow No evidence that Jake Paltrow refers to this as a new genre or as cli-fi. IMDB show it as a science fiction and western genre. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2693664/
• Noah (2014), directed by Darren Aronofsky No evidence that Darren Aronofsky calls this a cli-fi. IMDB lists it as action and drama. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1959490/
• Into the Storm (2014), directed by Steven Quale No evidence Steven Quale has used the term cli-fi to describe this movie. See http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2106361/ for use of action and thriller.
• Interstellar (November 2014), directed by Christopher Nolan Christopher Nolan has not used the term cli-fi. In fact, he said that he didn't want to give a climate message in this film. Sources: http://directconversations.com/2014/11/06/interview-christopher-nolan-talks-new-dimensions-interstellar/ and http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/07/us-film-christophernolan-idUSKBN0IR18320141107/ In the latter link, he says it's a science fiction film. He makes no mention of cli-fi.
• Snowpiercer (2014), directed by Joon-ho Bong While there are definitely climate themes in this film, there is no evidence that Joon-ho Bong calls his film a cli-fi. IMDB describes it as an action, science fiction and thriller.§

The history and origin of this article currently states:

The term "cli-fi" was originally abbreviated from the phrase "climate fiction" in 2008 in a movie-themed blog post by climate activist and book packager Danny Bloom . This abbreviation was also used independently in two movie reviews in 2009 and 2010 by Wired reporter Scott Thill. Margaret Atwood sent out a brief retweet of a Danny Bloom tweet about cli-fi in 2011. In December 2012, American climatologist Judith Curry wrote about the term on her blog, "Climate Etc." Bernie Bulkin, Former Chief Scientist of BP; Chair, the UK Office of Renewable Energy, writing for the Huffington Post, also published a piece on cli-fi in November 2013: "'Cli-fi: one answer to a climate problem'."

The Drowned World (1962) by J.G. Ballard is often cited as one of the first cli-fi novels, although it is not about global warming (i.e. man-made) rather from natural solar radiation (i.e. climate change).

Note that this Misplaced Pages article is written and controlled by Dan Bloom. He is also the author of the blog pcillu101.blogspot, which is the "reference" for the Atwood tweet. He is using his own blog to verify and reference his claims. The given link does not even say anything about Margaret Atwood. Judith Curry's blog simply references Dan's claims. I removed these links.

Note that there this history says that the term was first used in 2008. The reference leading to Vice says it was 2007, but this article was written in 2013 and provides no reference nor proof of when the term cli-fi was first used.§

The fact that a work predates the origin of the term cli fi doesn't preclude it from being retrospectively classified as cli fi. For example, the page for steampunk says, "The term steampunk's first known appearance was in 1987, though it now retroactively refers to many works of fiction created even as far back as the 1950s or 1960s." It may also be the case that some authors consider their work to be literary fiction, yet they can still be classified as science fiction if they meet certain criteria. Davidreid (talk) 10:31, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed that a genre can post-date works within, but these examples were removed when the article originator (Dan Bloom) claimed that these the example authors were referring to their works as being cli-fi. Can you give evidence of this? I scoured through the works and references online and could not find one place where this was true. I feel that articles on Misplaced Pages should be independently supported if claims are given, and this whole cli-fi entry has been wrought with problems. § — Preceding unsigned comment added by LynnS79 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

References

1. Merchant, Brian (June 1, 2013). "Behold the Rise of Dystopian 'Cli-Fi'". VICE - Motherboard. Retrieved 2013-06-02. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
2. By Scott Thill   (2014-07-07). "Review: The Age of Stupid Gets Smart on Enviropocalypse | Underwire". WIRED. Retrieved 2014-07-18.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)
3. Thill, Scott. "Methane Apocalypse Threatens World in Syfy Schlocker Ice Quake | Underwire | Wired.com". Archive.wired.com. Retrieved 2014-07-18.
4. Posted by DANIELBLOOM (2013-04-29). "CLI FLY CENTRAL : Ecotopian fiction". Pcillu101.blogspot.com. Retrieved 2014-07-18.
5. "Cli-Fi | Climate Etc". Judithcurry.com. 2012-12-23. Retrieved 2014-07-18.

On the Need to Detail "Cli-fi" terminology

Lynn, please help keep this article democtratic and neutral rather than just promoting your own agenda and biases as a professional. I am asking Kailish here and David Reid to listen on on this converstaion and weigh in when they wish on how to proceeed. And their POV on the name change to climate-change fiction and the way you keep censoring the short cli fi segment even though the science fiction page does the same thing for sci fi. (Chiayi77 (talk) 03:23, 26 March 2015 (UTC)).

Wiki admins, here is another example of this user baiting me and assuming I have an agenda. I do not. Well, I guess we all have agendas, and I think they are pretty similar--and that's to get the world to know more about climate change in writings. My only point is that, and I will reiterate, is that cli-fi, regardless of what Chiayi77 wants it to be, has always been an abbreviation and shortening of another term. I am not censoring your section here. In Misplaced Pages, it's called improving and revising. Everyone does this; it's how Misplaced Pages works. You are really baiting me here and trying to make me look bad, but my only point is that the term cli-fi is a genre abbreviation. That is how it is reported in the media. I don't how I am being un-neutral by pointing this out. Note that genres can be bigger than genres, especially this one. I will say once again that talking about an abbreviation, however, is completely superfluous and unnecessary.

aDMINS AND lYNN, FROM dan bloom: if i mitsook Lynn here for someone with an agenda, i made a mistake. I apologize. she does SEEM to have an agenda. i was mistaking her with someone else, she is NOT that someone else. she is just Lynn, I see that now. If it felt to Lyunn like i was baitig HEr, Lynn, then i do apolgize because if it FELt that way, it was my fault MEA CULPA . Sgined DAN BLOOM the new dan blom

Help us

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

Please help me with the following problem. I have been trying to improve this article since late last year. In the past couple weeks, ever since I proposed renaming it, the seeming originator of the article, Chiayi77, has been picking on me because he is claiming that he knows me and I should ID myself. This started after he asked for my email. I did not want to give him my email address because he seemed pushy and aggressive. He then went on to tell me that we had an email exchange (we did not). He then said I run a popular website and have my own agenda. I do not. Now, every time I make any comments or edits, he comes off accusing me of being someone else. He is baiting me unfairly and using this public area to do it. Why is he doing this? To make someone else look bad? To pick on me because I have a slightly different opinion? I find this highly unprofessional. He has a case of mistaken identity about me and will not just let it go despite me trying to correct him every time. Chiayi77 has said that a mod is watching this debate; if so, please ensure that personal attacks and accusations are not part of our discussion. They have nothing to do with the article itself, which should be the subject of this discussion. There is also the case of one of my talk areas being edited. I corrected it earlier and took a screenshot of what I actually said, which I will have to do from now on so that words aren't being put into my mouth. There are five (edit: at least seven) examples of this problem below that I've pointed out. LynnS79 (talk) 03:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, LynnS79 – this is, of course, the right place to discuss improvements to this article; however, if you have a dispute with another editor, then Misplaced Pages has a number of steps to take to resolve your differences, especially if you feel that a dispute cannot be resolved through discussion, either here on this talk page or on either your user talk page or the other user's talk page. You may click the "Misplaced Pages" link above to begin the process. It is hoped that you will find a solution in this manner. – Paine Ellsworth 09:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Paine, see my solution to all this in the top section here now. I hope we can find a solution the current impasse by either renaming the article that I originated here in 2013 back to its original tile, Cli Fi, and I have copied DDG on this. He told me by email that he only agreed to change the name because he thought there was a consensus to change the name, as it looked as if I also agreed with the group to change the title. However, I explained to DGG by email that i only "agreed" (square quotes for emphasis) in order to save the page from being completely deleted, which was the goup "leader's" (square quotes for emphasis) position, that we should either agree on a name change within a week or ask the mods to delete the page entirely. Like the story of the baby who was claimed by two people in the Bible, and where the wise judge, I think it was Solomon with his Solomonic decision, asked what should be done and one person said cut the baby in half, (it was not her baby, of course, but she wanted to win the argument, and the other person said, if it will come to cutting the baby in half, well, to save its life, since it really is my baby, I say don't the baby in half and give it to that other person who so vehemntly claims it is her. That is what this broyhaha is all about, Paine and DGG. Lynn was willing to delete the page completely rather than see it continue under the earlier title of cli fi. In order to save my baby, of course, i opted to say that I agreed to change the title, but it was not of course by true feelings. You see, I am Jewish, and those old Bible stories made a strong impression on me as a teenager when I went to Sunday school in Massachusetts. Btw, Paine, I like your name very much, just a quick aside: when i was kid int he 1950s in western Massachusetts, the boy next door was named Paine Garvery, and he was my good friend in those days of the 1950s and 1960s and in all my life since then i have never met another Paine so pleased to meet you, Paine Ellsworth, although of course i wish we had met under more happy circumstances than this impasse where with Professor W. whose stubborness here at Wiki surely must be an embarrassment to her university and students. (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Thanks for your information, and I will look into a dispute. But this Talk page needs to be moderatod and watched. I have read Talk page policies, and Chiayi77 is not following your policies on this page. What's more I have made several suggestions on this page as far as deleting or improving sections, and nobody is really following up. LynnS79 (talk) 17:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Lynn, you;ve read my MEA CULPA now and I hope you will forgive me now that you have it. It would be nice if you would either say you accept my apology or that you don't accept it. Where I come from, we respond to hearfelt apologies by acknowledging that we either accept them or don't. Peace. (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).. Your silence is stunning! (Chiayi77 (talk) 13:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)). (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

The issue in 25 words or less?

I might be interested in helping here, but what I see is WP:WALLOFTEXT.... see also WP:Too long, didn't read.

In 25 words or less, or maybe 50, what's the issue?

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Same request. Simonm223 (talk) 17:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that cli-fi has been presented in the news media (and by this article, see revision history) as a genre, short for climate fiction. I have provided sources for this above. Three of us proposed to rename the article from Cli-Fi to Climate Fiction, on similar grounds that Misplaced Pages has an article for Science Fiction but not for sci-fi. The originator of the article first agreed with this decision to rename the article, but then went on to deliver several personal attacks on me (for suggesting to rename it)--including later apologies to me for confusing me with someone else. But then went further on to say that cli-fi was not, in fact (despite what all the news media reports, and what the originator he himself has said--resources above), a genre term, that it was a new concept and a neologism that wasn't genre-related but that will be for future books only, and that no books have yet been published in the genre. It's confusing to me, but clear that this user is more concerned with promoting an abbreviation as some novel concept rather than the important works that media is already reporting within the climate fiction genre. This is about as TL:DR as I can get; sorry it goes over 25 words.LynnS79 (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, then, the best thing to do would be to remove all claims that are not reliably sourced? I can get started on that right away, if that is what would resolve all dispute issues. And what is with the § symbols at the end of some paragraphs? – Paine Ellsworth 23:29, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The best thing to do to bring peace to Wikipedians would be to either retitle this page back to its original title but at the same keep all the new links and content that Professor W and others have added, myself included, or keep building the page by consensus with the first title put back on and maybe ask DGG for decision on this since he is the mod who pushed the controls to change the title a few weeks ago, or ask Professor W, since she is an acknowledged expert on many genres of literature, which she teaches at her top tier university in her part of the world, and of course an expert on the history of the so-called genre she calls climate ficiton, and let her build a climate fictiong genre page to her heart's delight. I know who she is now, of course, via a 2 minute Google search with the right keys words in the search window and i have discovered, and not surprised at all, from readingf her blogs and posts on other people's blog that she is well acquaitned with a person who also lives in her neck of the woods in that part of the world who runs an anti cli-fi website that calls for the recognition of climate fiction as a genre and mitigates anyone anywhere saying that cli fi is a new neologism that is not an abbreviaton of climate fiction. Professor W has a review of book that the website curator wrote a few years ago and W reviewed it under her byline and published it in a top literary journal in her country. W is working alone and indepdnetly but much of her own anti cli fi animus comes from the website that used to be called clifi-books but has since been renamed after an agreement btweetn me and the curator to agree to disagree on all this and still remain friends, and we are still friends, and she has gone her way and I have gone my way, both with private websites, mine focuses on the rise of cli fi, and hers focuses on a wide variety of genres but vehemently lobbies against the cli fi term and the way I use it. and that is fine, time will tell who wa right. I can wait. But Professor W, and this my point here, is not a neutral editor here adn this page, she is solidly in the same anti cli fi camp as the other woman, who she knows and communicates with, and has read her website from front to back to father info to butrrees her argument ath this page should have been renamed climate fiction. In fact, there is no gtenre called climate fiction, and never was. Herzog's HEAT which Professor W and the website curator at wall, positions as one fo the frist writers of a climate fiction novel was NEVER written or published or read as a climate fiction now when it was published. Never. But now the curator and Professor W are prentenfiong it is a climate fiction novel. Margart Atwood has never written a climate fiction novil, sorry Prfessor W, and Kim Stan Robinson has always written sci fi novels, some with climate themes, yes, but he has never released a book as climate fictioonm genre novel. I suggest that Professor W, with her great store of knowledge of literay genres and who as a greenie who is very worreid about global warming, as I am too, thjat W create a Wiki page about her view of climate fiction as a genre. I will read it. But please don't cut the baby in half and kill my baby. All I want is my original title back! How about it Paine, DGG, mods? that would solve everything. And please note that i have not ID's the professor real name, just an initial to prove to her that Google search inforemd me of her name, her classes and her connwection to the anti cli fi website where she took most of her arguments from to fight agaisnt my cli fi ideas. So peace can prevail, if we let W to her thing and give me a page titled either Cli Fi or Cli-Fi (disambiguation) which DGG is considering. This fighting should not go on. I will not post here anymore. I like W and I respect her views. but as a wiki editor she should remain netural and not parrot the same POV as the anti cli fi website she is friends with. She even admits there that she has heard that curator speak. They know each other. That's fine. The curator is a great person and I love her and i hope to love W someday too. We're getting closer to not cutting the baby in half I hope. :: Paine, see my solution to all this in the top section here now. I hope we can find a solution the current impasse by either renaming the article that I originated here in 2013 back to its original tile, Cli Fi, and I have copied DDG on this. He told me by email that he only agreed to change the name because he thought there was a consensus to change the name, as it looked as if I also agreed with the group to change the title. However, I explained to DGG by email that i only "agreed" (square quotes for emphasis) in order to save the page from being completely deleted, which was the goup "leader's" (square quotes for emphasis) position, that we should either agree on a name change within a week or ask the mods to delete the page entirely. Like the story of the baby who was claimed by two people in the Bible, and where the wise judge, I think it was Solomon with his Solomonic decision, asked what should be done and one person said cut the baby in half, (it was not her baby, of course, but she wanted to win the argument, and the other person said, if it will come to cutting the baby in half, well, to save its life, since it really is my baby, I say don't the baby in half and give it to that other person who so vehemntly claims it is her. That is what this broyhaha is all about, Paine and DGG. Lynn was willing to delete the page completely rather than see it continue under the earlier title of cli fi. In order to save my baby, of course, i opted to say that I agreed to change the title, but it was not of course by true feelings. You see, I am Jewish, and those old Bible stories made a strong impression on me as a teenager when I went to Sunday school in Massachusetts. Btw, Paine, I like your name very much, just a quick aside: when i was kid int he 1950s in western Massachusetts, the boy next door was named Paine Garvery, and he was my good friend in those days of the 1950s and 1960s and in all my life since then i have never met another Paine so pleased to meet you, Paine Ellsworth, although of course i wish we had met under more happy circumstances than this impasse where with Professor W. whose stubborness here at Wiki surely must be an embarrassment to her university and students. (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

Ah. Eds disagree whether Cli-fi should be the article title or a redirect to Climate fiction. Just 15 words! NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:44, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, as somebody pretty involved in SFF circles, I've heard the phrase Climate fiction, I've never heard cli-fi before today. Looking at the article as it stands, if I stripped it down to WP:RS supported material it would be a stub, so if there are RSes for Climate Fiction, considering how much of this article is un-substantiated currently, I'd say go for it. Simonm223 (talk) 01:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

But Simon223, and i am glad you have finally heard of the cli fi term, see more at The CLi FI report, a private website set up by an IT firm in Calfoprnmoa for me, and full of nothiognt but linsk to articles and acedemics papers for reseach to mull over, at cli-fi.net --- how about we let this page stand as it, with the current title but give me a page title for anew stub that reads....Cli-Fi (disambiguation) ....which DGG has already said was a good idea. Let me disambiguate and let Professor pontificate, on different pages with differen titels and all is good, no? Professor W could set up her own private wbstie on climate ficiton if she wants, but she prefers to be a bossy Wikipedian ed here and waste both her time and my time, although I must say this has been an interesting case study about how Wiki works and how arugments and disagreemnts are finally...settled... or abirated. I have learned a lot here and I ap;ogize for my poor typing skills and any misfires i might have said in the heat of any of the arugmetns that have ensued. NOTE: I am no longer going to address Prof. W directly here. game over. Whatever i say, no matter what i say, she just goes on and on with her PHD bradao thinking she knows More about cli fi than I do. The nerve! The chutzpah! See you in Arbitration, Professor. May the best man win!(Chiayi77 (talk) 01:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).

I will take "Cli-Fi (disambiguation)" as a title for a new stub, and I will stop pestering the learned professor here whose views i respect but disagree with. Can't we all get along? (Chiayi77 (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)).