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Yemen Start‑class Mid‑importance

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Military history: Middle East B‑class

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A news item involving Houthi takeover in Yemen was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 22 January 2015.

Untitled

Not just protests, there was a battle in Sanaa and ongoing offensives. The title should be changed--93.137.165.42 (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, how about moving it to 2014 Yemeni unrest? --Cerebellum (talk) 09:06, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

it's better, but still we can merge it into Shia insurgency in Yemen--78.0.123.154 (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I think there's enough information for this be its own article. We can expand it using the information from ar:احتجاجات اليمن 2014. Does that sound ok? --Cerebellum (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how it's not a continuation of the same events that make up the Shia insurgency in Yemen. There's enough information on it, but we can put that information in a new section on the prior page. The disassociation is rather confusing. Futur3g4ry (talk) 00:47, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Wanted: explanation of influence over Sunni-majority regions

The Houthis are characterized as a Shia group, not so much here but especially in that article. But the map we have shows that Houthis control everything to the west coast of Yemen, whereas what I find on the web seems to suggest that mostly Sunnis might live in those areas. This brings up a timely question: has this movement 'secularized' sufficiently that it is a government acceptable to the Sunni populace? With of course the implied crystal ball gazing (which I don't expect anyone to address without a bold source to cite) of whether they potentially are capable of winning control of regions currently held by al-Qaida. (I definitely do not know this topic - that's why I'm asking you - apology for any false assumption) Wnt (talk) 18:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

The Zaidi shiites have been the dominant group in the north-west part of Yemen for 1000 years, I don't know where you would get the idea that "mostly Sunnis might live there".Lathamibird (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I admit what I cited above was a blog - though I suspect the image comes from somewhere more distinguished - but stories like agree with it. According to that latter reference, Al-Hudaydah is 95% Sunni but was in the process of being seized by Houthis in October, leading Al-Jazeera to question whether they could maintain control over the city. PressTV at least says that they hold Hudaydah until now though I don't know I'd trust that. :) Still, I don't think it's dumb to ask. Wnt (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Coup

Is it right for us to categorize this as a "coup" in the title? I don't think it's that simple, and the Houthis haven't defined it that way. I think their position is that they have been pressuring the government to make changes, not trying to topple the government or take control of the state outright. Everyking (talk) 21:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources are calling it a coup, and I think it fits the definition: an armed group used force and the threat of force to gain control over the government, pushing out the president (who is reportedly under house arrest) and his ministers in doing so. It's a de facto coup, even if it's less clean-cut than some historical coups. I'd also note the Houthis are now talking about forming a ruling council to "govern" the country. -Kudzu1 (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I just don't think it's clear enough to justify that title, especially if the Houthis themselves deny it. They apparently didn't want Hadi to resign, perhaps preferring that he remain as a figurehead. They have not in fact taken over the government, which is fundamental to a coup. We would be on firmer ground to call it a political crisis. Everyking (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

"Crisis" is far too vague. This is a clear case of an armed group using force as political leverage, first to demand (successfully) a weak "unity government" (going so far as to veto the original PM choice, who they kidnapped at gunpoint last week), and then to force Hadi to either agree to put them in charge of key ministries and governorates or to step down. It's safe to call it a coup. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree with you. It would be good if we could get some other voices in here and develop a consensus one way or the other. Everyking (talk) 23:28, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

IMO, the part that could be called a coup began at the earliest with the chief of staff's kidnapping. A more accurate starting event would probably be the capture of the presidential palace. The event before the coup would probably best be described as a rebellion or uprising. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 10:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm open to that, but my feeling is that when an armed group is dictating the formulation of a government at gunpoint, as the Houthis did in fall 2014, it's a coup. Since then, the Houthis have continued to use force and threats to consolidate (and, to some extent, formalize) their control over what is left of the Yemeni government. Definitely the recent events with the seizure of the presidential palace, Hadi's confinement, and the mass resignations have been the most dramatic chapter of it, but it seems this coup has been steadily unfolding since the Houthis took the capital in September. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what reliable sources are calling this a coup? I can't recall seeing any. Everyking (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Among others: MSNBC Washington Times The Guardian International Business-Times Middle East Monitor The Jerusalem Post Usage isn't uniform, but it's widespread. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, user Kudzu1. Those links you gave can be hardly considered as evidence that the whole setting is a 'coup' since the term is only attributed to the Houthi opponents. Take for instance, the Middle East monitor link with the title GCC slams Houthi coup in Yemen does not actually narrates the whole event itself as a coup, rather it was the GCC calls it coup since they are against Houthis. This is the same when you read the IBT article with its headline Thousands in Yemen March to Protest Houthi Coup. Again, the "Houthi coup" was made up by Yemeni anti-Houthi protesters. Both supporters of Houthis seizure of the government and Houthi themselves denied it was a coup, but it was a constitutional declaration. If you read those articles you will notice they never mention the word coup except the title itself.

Secondly, what happened in Yemen can be hardly considered as a coup because (1) President Hadi and premier Bahah weren't got forced out by the Houthis, rather they resigned themselves because they don't want to continue their job under Houthi orders; (2) Although both resigned, the Houthis did urge them to rescind their resignation but both decision was final; (3) Till now, Houthis have not officially form any official government body like parliament, prime minister, or presidency.

Opponents of Houthi rule can say its a coup, but supporters called it a revolution. I am sure you don't want to change this article page into the latter term either. I suggest something like 2015 Houthi Constitutional Declaration or any similar title so that to make the events more neutral. It's still vague if the whole events is a coup or not (even though they "seized" power). Myronbeg (talk) 09:06, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

And I would cite the Egypt precedent from 2013. The best description of this event is a coup. Multiple reliable sources call the event a coup. It fits the dictionary definition of a coup. "Constitutional declaration" would only cover a single day (6 February 2015), and at least part of that declaration has already been walked back. "Revolution" is a clear and obvious non-starter. Even if some outlets and analysts have tiptoed around the word "coup", it has still been commonly used (both after the resignations under duress of Hadi and Bahah and the so-called "constitutional declaration" of 6 February), and we are not beholden to those same kind of political considerations. An armed group seized power; reliable sources call it what it is; it looks, walks, and quacks like a coup. -Kudzu1 (talk) 09:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

@Kudzu1 and Everyking: we are not here to judge and choose a name based on our own judgment. If we're going to rely on the reliable sources, Coup is not suitable title. At least one may say that "revolution" is in contest with "coup" when it come to google results, even "revolution" better excels. However, more precise discussion is required. Mhhossein (talk) 20:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that the title of (UPRISING) instead of other words is suitable as applied by some agencies.--m,sharaf (talk) 20:34, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

We should use the WP:COMMON name if there is one, and I have seen "coup" used a lot more than "revolution", which seems to be limited to non-RS blogs and Iranian media. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to say that "revolution" is not limited to non-RS blogs and Iranian media. Mhhossein (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic piece is a meditation on the Yemeni Revolution of 2011; in fact, another Atlantic piece which that story links to refers to the Houthi takeover (like many other sources do) as a coup: The International Policy Digest piece actually suggests there is a "youth revolution" brewing against the Houthis, although there's no evidence since then it has actually materialized (the article is from the end of January). The Al-Monitor piece also uses the terms "revolution" and "revolutionary" in relation to the 2011 revolution, again arguing that the Houthi/Saleh takeover has actually eroded the revolution. None of your sources make the argument you want them to, but ironically, they all make sound points against it. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:30, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, The Atlantic piece is NOT a meditation on the Yemeni Revolution of 2011 and is explaining how the Houthi movement developed. The youth revolution in International Policy Digest is as you said against the houthi movement but consider that they denounced both the Houthis and also AQAP. but how can these demonstrations from a university be called revolution?As the Al-monitor writes "Most importantly, the popular revolution believes the ongoing conflict is against the traditional powers, i.e., the old regime powers." Finally I did not aim to say that "revolution" is a common name rather wanted to say that "Coup" is not suitable and we have to find a better title. Mhhossein (talk) 04:11, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you're dramatically misconstruing your sources, and I'm not sure if you're doing so deliberately or inadvertently. "Coup" is a suitable title for now, it's in common usage, and most importantly, I haven't seen any sort of viable alternative. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Something else I notice: most of the other-language Wikipedias also refer to the event as a coup in their titles and/or ledes. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

As the OP raised, 'coup' is a gross mischaracterization of the incident. But true! Our so called "reliable" sources have described it that way, but they are also the media open to the charges of political bias for they belong to countries that recently formed the military alliance against the Houthis launching attacks on the "to protect" the non-existing Hadi government who is ironically residing in Saudi Arabia advising Saudi generals on the attacks!! I think by uncritically picking up the "reliable sources'" description, we are allowing in their clear political bias in our articles. These sources are clearly not reliable and unbiased at least for this particular subject. Just switch to the rival sources (Iranian/Shia) and you get the incident characterized as a "revolution" or other sort of things. So we really need to find an alternative to Western/Saudi propaganda talking points. Strivingsoul (talk) 01:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@Strivingsoul: I think you are trying to explain that reliable sources may be non-neutral or "not being neutral" does not affects the "reliability". But. we have to gather all of the major viewpoints to have a neutral article and avoid the bias of the sources. As for naming, we should also consider that we can't act based on the statements of sources because the event happening in Yemen may be described from different viewpoints. So, for example, if "the Gulf Arab foreign ministers meeting in Saudi Arabia considered the violence in Sanaa on Jan. 20 a “coup d'etat,”"this is just an opinion from the opposition party. This is while "The take-over of Sana’a is the beginning of what al-Houthi has called a new phase of the national revolution, originating in the protests of 2011.". So, I think we should start a neutral proposal which is not POV of a certain party. Thanks Mhhossein (talk) 08:32, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Nadia al-Sakkaf

Is the Nadia al-Sakkaf who is listed here as the Information Minister of the outgoing government the same person as the editor of the Yemen Times, or is the similarity in names just a remarkable coincidence? -- The Anome (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears she's the same person (& may no longer edit the Yemen Times). Blaylockjam10 (talk) 11:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

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