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3RR warning

On the creation-evolution article you are getting very close to WP:3RR. JoshuaZ 12:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR

I did not assert that your next revert would put you over merely that your pattern was getting you very close it. As for your other comments, I will respond to them when I have time. JoshuaZ 20:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It might also be helpful if you explicitly brought up the matter of the merger and explained your position on the talk page. Even if there was consensus for the merger earlier it does not look like there is now. JoshuaZ 20:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Also one more point- if the editors thought what you did was POV you may want to ask them on their talk pages and explain wht you did it. JoshuaZ 21:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You say you have opened a discussion of your intended pages on Talk:Creation-evolution controversy. Are you referring to your Sept. 13th and 14th edits to the section "German Poll"? Because they only seem to cover some of the material you inserted; they do not speak to all the material which was inserted and then reverted. How about we discuss this on that talk page in a new section called "Rtc's Proposed Changes"? Cheers, Kasreyn 04:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Rtc, my understanding of WP:3RR is that edits which constitute a partial revert - where part of the material is restored to its previous form - also count towards one's limit. Otherwise, 3RR would be utterly unenforceable, as revert-warriors would simply add new content with every revert and claim that, as it isn't an exact revert, it isn't a revert at all and doesn't count. Cheers, Kasreyn 04:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Really, Kasreyn, I do not see what "material inserted" you are talking about. I did not insert any material, I slightly corrected incorrect changes and did a merger discussed long ago. Yes, I am refering to Sept. 13 and 14 edits to "German Poll". Did you read them? Did you read User talk:JoshuaZ#Creation-evolution controversy? Why don't I get any follow-up on talk page of the arctile nor on the JoshuaZ talk page just mentioned? Why does nobody give quotations of what they reject about my change or give any comment about them at all? All I know is that "rv POV" and "you are wrong" and "you have been rejected by x editors" and unspecific claims that I have inserted "material". You can write English on my German user page, but you can also reply here. I don't mind. I am only checking english WP once a day, though. Your opinion about 3RR is wrong. If the changes are progressive towards a common goal (I took back bias claim), it is perfectly okay to go into a "quasi-"edit-war (I'd call it an cooperative edit session). --Rtc 18:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience article

Rtc, I apologize for getting so snappy earlier. You have a wealth of valuable points regarding Popper; thanks very much for that set of contributions. ... Kenosis 14:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologize, too, for harsh language. --Rtc 14:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Rtc, I'm not sure I agree with all your points, but I do know that you know more about Popper than do I, so I'm staying out of that part. No point in looking egregiously stupid.  ;) One note, beware Krishna -- he's the expert beyond all experts.
One other point, if you could recommend just one book by Popper (or about Popper) what would it be? Thanks. •Jim62sch• 10:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course The Logic of Scientific Discovery. Many people believe to know what's in the book, but once you read it, you will be surprised, I guarantee. (However, editing the Pseudoscience article, I sadly noticed that very important appendices *XIII–*XX and some prefaces seem to be exclusive so far to the German version. So if you can get your hands on 11th edition of the German version, I can really recommend it. The editor also added a detailed section about the development of the book.). The Logic is a very early book, if you want to see the improvements that have been made to Popper's critical rationalism in the meantime, also read David Miller: Critical rationalism. A re-statement and defence. PS: I'm surely not an expert, more the interested laymen. But on wikipedia, once you have read the book you are writing about, you almost count as an expert ;) Unfortunately wikipedians google too much and there is a bias to web sources, which are often of bad quality... --Rtc 10:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll get the Popper book (English first...my German is fine as far as reasonably non-complex conversations or contributions to Wiki, but technical stuff takes a good bit more effort), then I can look into Miller. You have a good point about Wiki being google-happy -- but I suppose that's just easier for so many these days. However, it's also less productive as many people have great difficulty filtering out or even noticing the bias. Of course, a lot of it has to do with the nuances of English, but I know that in the US, nuances are missed left and right, thus leading to miscomprehension (of course, that's often the writer's goal). Again, many thanks. •Jim62sch• 21:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

OpenVZ marked as essay

You have recently marked OpenVZ article with Template:Essay-entry, but haven't provided any explanation why you think so. To my mind, article is very technical, specific and to the point. So could you please elaborate and tell something about your decision (preferrably on the Talk:OpenVZ page)? --K001 11:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Science

Thanks for getting the lead of the article on Science back to a more reasonable expression of the concept, RTC. You're right; it is definitely not "and/or...". ... Kenosis 03:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Careful, lad. You're vvery close to 3RR over on Irreducible Complexity. Adam Cuerden 19:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm from German Misplaced Pages. We do not have 3RR here, for good reason. You should abandon it, too. PS: there's also WP:NPOV. It's more important to enforce that policy... --Rtc 19:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You've gone over the 3RR. This is the English Misplaced Pages and it does have the 3RR rule even if the German one doesn't.-Psychohistorian 19:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't search an excuse for adding POV. Adding POV is forbidden even if you can allegedly trick the opponent into 3RR. Don'T game the system, or you may be blocked. --Rtc 19:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You have been reported for violating the 3RR.-Psychohistorian 19:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You may also want to reread the 3RR policy - particularly the part which states, "Even if you are making other changes at the same time, continually undoing other editors' work counts as reverting. "Complex partial reverts" refer to reverts that remove or re-add only some of the disputed material while adding new material at the same time, which is often done in an effort to disguise the reverting. This type of edit counts toward 3RR, regardless of the editor's intention."-Psychohistorian 19:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I did not undo work. I added the source in a different way: . Unfortunately my compromise was ignored completely. Why didn't you AGF and discuss on the talk page, but immediately worked towards getting me blocked? Why was my message on the talk page removed, suggesting I wasn't using discussion? --Rtc 21:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Rtc (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

original unblock reason

Decline reason:

Please provide a reason why your block was not valid. — Yamla 19:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Rtc (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Please review the block reason "Three-revert rule violation: repeated 3RR violations with no sign of stopping" for correctness and please review the indefinite block for appropriateness

Decline reason:

I've reviewed the block and the 3RR. Now, as Yamla told you, it's time for you to provide a reason why you should be unblocked. - auburnpilot talk 19:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Y	Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): Request handled by: Orderinchaos 22:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The block reason is false. I did not violate 3RR, which speaks of "a 24-hour period". Further, the reverts were done to "remove controversial material about living persons" (and it was poorly sourced, too, although I don't mind about that, since it is correct. But it is something that is neither relevant nor right to include). The 3rr violation was also not a "repeated" one. Finally, User:Alkivar took a clear position on the content issue and it must hence be assumed that he blocked me because he disliked my position on it and wanted to censor me, not because of any 3RR violation. My most recent edit before he blocked me wasn't in the article, but in , where I was ready to discuss the issue. He didn't even give me a chance to do so and to reply to his opinion. Even if the reason would have been correct, the indefinite block wouldn't be appropriate.

I'll leave a note on AN/I under that heading to direct other users to this unblock request. - auburnpilot talk 20:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You say that you "believe the block was valid", but this is not a question of beliefs, but a question of facts. And the block is in fact not valid; I have given strong arguments about that above. Why are they ignored? It is the same as every time, the 3rr block is done purely as an excuse to get me censored, and upheld while being factually incorrect, and it is a dishonest replacement for the actual reason behind the intention to block, which however isn't a valid reason for blocking. --rtc 20:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I have unblocked this user. rtc is however advised that 3RR does attract a 24 hour block, and per WP:BLOCK, second and further offences, were they to occur, could attract longer penalties. Orderinchaos 22:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

17 easy steps // and thanks

Haw haw.. I haven't read that in a long time. Thanks for your contribs to Hacker, stick around... Es gibt wirklich kein 3RR auf die Deutsche Misplaced Pages!?.. Wie kommt edit wars zur Ende? -- Sehen wir uns.. ∴ here…♠ 18:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• The editwars usually come to an end by protecting the article instead of blocking the participants of the edit war. --rtc 20:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Misinformation related to Hacking related articles

Rtc, there have been a series of worrisome actions undertaken on your part, such as the move and renaming of several articles without a proper discussion with all affected parties across those articles, and frankly this has begun to look like a revisionist campaign to me. For instance, there was never an academia and hobbyist(!) section to the hacker article because there isn't a gross divide within the hacking community and the academic concept was already well covered in the former Hacker culture article. Also, as a matter of fact, the computer security aspect to hacking is a relatively new attribute applied to those within the overall hacker community.

Unfortunately, these changes have led to a great deal of misinformation caused by your well-intentioned but premature edits.

Foremost are the edits leading to the propagation of the divided hacking community of hobbyist, academia, and computer security, a point I tried to clarify in my previous edit (Talk:Hacker#heap of rubble).

1. You moved the Hacker culture article to the erroneous Hacker (academia) which you should not have done as the single Hacker article should, as well as having a detailed history, cover the ambiguities. But even more importantly, the objective of the latter was to detail the hacking community as a worldwide subculture similar to all others subculture. This was completely lost by your edits. The hacker community developed over decades of like-minded enthusiasts the world over coming together. I cannot fathom why the hacker culture was moved to hacker (academia), granted, the root, but an irrelevant aspect of the community now. Something of this magnitude should have been done with a long and extended discussion.
2. You moved the Hardware hacker article to Hacker (hobbyist) and this is the one that is really troublesome. Like I said, hacking is not a hobby, it is a full-blown subculture. That is why the networked hacker culture is referred to as the "hacking community" (see Google results: 13,000,000). Playing chess is a hobby. Hacking is not chess. This aspect was greatly lost also by your massive changes to the former hacker culture article. And second to this, the hardware hacker field of hacking is a specialized field similar to phreaking. All phreakers and hardware hackers are hackers, but all hackers are not phreakers and hardware modifier.
3. You moved the important Timeline of hacker history to the erroneous title of Timeline of computer security hacker history and continued to change to reflect the new title. As I said before, the broader computer security aspect is a relatively new attribute applied to the hacker community, as it developed counter to hackers based upon the perceived image of hackers.

Perhaps if you were to research on the history of hacking and spend an extended time within a hacker network, you would understand why these issues arise.

Note also that the main reason no action was undertaken to revert the errors was to prevent an edit-war. But something of this magnitude might require a Request for Comment. -- Kerowren  19:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, Kerowen, but this criticism amounts to nothing. Nowhere a claim is made about a "divided hacking community". There are simply several hacker cultures, with different roots and different understanding of the term, computer security hacker culture seeing one big hacker community, academic hacker culture (at least prominent adherents from it, such as ESR) disassociating itself from this idea. What I have done is to give the correct account according to the Jargon File and other sources, which I have all provided. From you, I do not see a single source, only that I should do "research on the history of hacking and spend an extended time within a hacker network". But there is no Original Research to be done on Misplaced Pages. The Point of view you are refering to is well accounted for in the Hacker article, just as WP:NPOV demands: "The computer security hacking subculture on the other hand tends not to distinguish between the two subcultures as harshly". So what are you complaining about? I did these things according to being bold, to put an end to the endless, amateurish nonsense that has accumulated around these articles. The feedback was positive at Talk:Hacker#heap of rubble. Perhaps you should consider that the presentation carries some truth and check whether your own impression of the hacker stuff has to be revised. At least you should argue with sources instead of your own doubtlessly extended personal experiences within the "hacker network", which isn't a valid source for Misplaced Pages. However, I agree that the article Hacker (hobbyist), as it is now, is bad at least, even misleading. The main point, the MITS Altair, is completely missing. But that can be improved. I think you are too much understanding the three subcultures as being demarcated according to their activities (that is, hacking as a hobby, hacking as an academic pofession and hacking as a job in computer security industry). That is not so; it is a misunderstanding. They are demarcated according to their historical origin and development, their context. To give an extreme example, just as Nudism and Indigenous peoples both have something to do with nakedness, they are certainly different historical contexts. So it is wrong that "the hacking community a worldwide subculture"; neither is the academic hacker culture "the root" of a large subculture that is centered around computer security—phreaking and 2600 is that root, and it has nothing to do with the academic hacker culture—, nor is the academic hacker culture "an irrelevant aspect of the community now"—it is a subculture completely in its own right, it's just called free software and open source movement nowadays. Further, it is wrong that the "three are not different, they are the same". They are objectively different, and that difference is their historical origin, development and context, that is, phreaking, 2600 and BBSs for the computer security hacker subculture, MIT-AI and other university computers for the academic hacker culture and MITS Altair for the hobbyist hacker culture. (And, despite this being the actual demarcation, yet, in practice, there ARE large differences also in their activities, although these differences are less sharp—hardware hacking is found in all three subcultures, but in their respective different context, guided by different objectives and motivations. But breaking into systems, be it ethical or not, be it one's own system or someone else's, is emphatically NOT something the academic hacker community is about or has ever been about.) I made some clarifying edits, hoping that the misunderstanding of the demarcation as one based on activity is prevented better now. Given the utterly chaotic state before I did my changes, I disagree that what I have done "should have been done with a long and extended discussion." Although I do not think that the distinction is wrong, I am ready at any time to change it, even completely, if you come up with convincing (that is, not some random usenet posting, for example) sources that are better (ie., more detailed, taking into account and explaining more facts etc.) than the current ones. Finally, go ahead if you wish to initiate a Request for Comment. I am always interested in feedback and hints about things I have done wrong (although I am confident that my changes give a correct account and represent the sources I have cited fairly). --rtc 21:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Kero has now canvassed a number of users on this issue, despite not yet posting anything to Talk:Hacker. Lets please continue this discussion where it belongs. ∴ here…♠ 02:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Pseudoscience and the logical positivist approach to the very idea of pseudoscience ;-)

Rtc, when Popper refers to pseudoscience, he's not referring to pseudoempiricism, but to pseudoscience . (Also please remember that formal science such as mathematics, logic, and statistics also involve falsification, but it is not a-posteriori or emprical falsification.) Of course, if someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll be removing the reference to "reinforced dogmatisms" in due course, thought not today. The edit you made today to the article on pseudoscience, I must admit, seems to reflect Popper's intent AFAIK. Bye for now. ... Kenosis 03:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that I wrote anything about pseudoempiricism. On the other hand, since he never used the word pseudoempiricism, I agree that he is not referring to it when he talks of pseudoscience. But Popper is not referring to falsifiability, either! He is refering to those unfalsifiable theories that are reinforced dogmatisms. This is only a small subset of them. I think my change explains that quite well. I don't think hat the reference to reinforced dogmatisms should be removed, since Popper's reinforced dogmatisms are exactly what makes something a pseudoscience to him. --rtc 04:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. I must wonder what your edit summary here intended to mean by the words "you will see that...". Many particpants have been involved in constructing the article on pseudoscience. Take care. ... Kenosis 03:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have written the previous version of this part of the article myself, and now corrected it. At the time I wrote it, I had read only the Logic, and I had overlooked some remarks by Popper in the appendix that what he had seen first as a distinction between science and non-science was in fact one between empirical and non-empirical theories. --rtc 04:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have read some of what you have posted here and I find it logical and well thought out and I see you got for your efforts the 'troll' tag. Nothing new. Anyone who goes against the status quo gets that here. Octoplus 14:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have now noticed they are calling you and tenditious editor. From history you have 2 choices: shut up or be banned. Look throught the archives and see how many people have been banned for critcizing the article. Octoplus 12:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR Warning

Just to warn you, you're getting pretty close to violating the three-revert rule on Pseudoscience. Please hold off on your reversions and discuss this issue on the talk page. Also note that even if you try to continually slip under the limit but keep reverting, this could be considered gaming the system, and is also against the rules. --Infophile 13:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I must warn you not to argue with 3RR warning. I have constantly added sources and references when asked, and was reverted. No comment was given on the talk page, although I have continued to give more and more sources, cited directly, and available on the web. The version I corrected was written by myself. I tried to speak to the reverting user on his talk page, which he deliberately ignored and continued to revert. It is a common practice in controversial articles to try somehow to get people criticizing the article into doing something such that they can be banned according to 3RR. This is gaming the system and bad faith. --rtc 13:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

As I count your edits, you're currently at exactly three in the last 24 hours - this is why I said "close to violating ." I'm just giving you a warning in the hope that it will prevent you from making a fourth. Also, please note that the policy doesn't care whether you're editing in good faith, whether you keep adding more sources to make your version better, or whether you tried to resolve it through other means. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but none fit here. --Infophile 13:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The other user is reverting allegedly because he wants sources. So I added the sources. Because I am doing that, he reverts me again, and demands more sources. Isn't that somehow a little bit absurd? I have two options: Either not question the article, or try it, be reverted and blocked. If you are giving me a warning in the hope that it will prevent me from making a fourth revert, why are you not doing the same favour to the other user? --rtc 13:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The other user is an administrator (who would thus presumably know the policy quite well) with no blocks on record. You, on the other hand, have two blocks on record for 3RR violations (though I'll note that one was undone not long after imposed). You're quite frankly a much greater risk of violating the rule. Also, on the subject matter, you might want to read FeloniousMonk's edit summaries; they give his rationale for reverting. If you already have and disagree with it, you can bring it up on his talk page or the talk page of the article. --Infophile 13:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

As I already said, I have written to the user on his talk page, User_talk:FeloniousMonk#Pseudoscience The user ignored this and kept reverting. He seems not to be interested in discussion. --rtc 13:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It still doesn't give you the right to violate WP:3RR (which you haven't yet, I'll note, but you shouldn't edit-war over it anyway). And if I may speak for him, I think he intended to give a response through his edit summaries (though I can't be sure). Of course, he isn't the only arbiter. Feel free to bring up your case on the article talk page, and if you can get other people to support your version, they can revert back to it for you. --Infophile 14:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Seeking consensus first is not needed for editing wikipedia, and I tried hard to discuss on the talk page, but there was no reply for some time, and now there are two replies, but still no argument. I provided sources and yet today added another source that is very clear. Either give a real argument, or stop reverting, you have no right to revert my edits simply for such claims as consensus allegedly being generally against me. That is mobbing. Stop that and start discussion if you have anything to say. Claiming such things is especially ridiculous since I have written the part of the text which I am correcting myself. --rtc 14:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You're correct that WP:BOLD is an important part of editing Misplaced Pages; however what we have here amounts edit warring. The first time you inserted your interpretations, you were covered perfectly by WP:BOLD. The second time, not so much. Now, it's gotten completely irrelevent. Once it gets to this point, the best thing to do is step away from revert warring on the article and hammer it out on the talk page (preferably leaving it at the original version in the interim). I know you've tried to do this, but as I've explained, your lack of response is likely more a case of people not bothering to do all the work to respond than it is a case of people not objecting.

One other point that's important here: Misplaced Pages is primarily a tertiary source. The facts in articles should, when possible, be based on reliable secondary sources. Popper's original writing counts as a primary source. What we want is some other reliable source who has review what he's said and drawn interpretations from it, and then we report those interpretations. Interpreting ourselves amounts to original research. --Infophile 14:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

But the article currently cites primary sources, not secondary ones, and in fact secondary sources are very rare in general on Misplaced Pages. I am trying to correct what is claimed about what these primary sources allegedly say. There's really not much interpretation to be done about sources by Popper. I referred people to reputable secondary sources about Popper, such as Hacohen, Maggee, Bartley, Keuth, Niemann and Corvi. Noone seems to use them. --rtc 14:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours

For general troublemaking on the ID article, I've blocked you for 24 hours. And if you do not reform your behavior after this block expires, you can expect further blocks. Raul654 15:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Rtc (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I was blocked in bad faith. Editors in Intelligent Design have worked deliberately and systematically towards blocking me by endless provocations. For example see the brazen provocations at Talk:Intelligent_design#Moved. I did not do anything more "general troublemaking" than the editors of the article. Why am I blocked, and they not? Blocks are not punishments and blocks are not for getting rid of people who criticize your article.

Decline reason:

Misplaced Pages is not a conspiracy. Is it possible the problem might actually be at your end? — Spartaz 16:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Blocked for 'general troublemaking'? I told you you cannot disagree with the status quo here. And now you are a conspiracy-finding paranoic. Octoplus 19:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that's helpful. Orangemarlin 19:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

And quite profound as well. •Jim62sch• 21:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Will you two please stop the trolling? Thank you. Octoplus 10:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Go back under the bridge. •Jim62sch• 18:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Lake Trout are biting, so I think I'll have to continue. Orangemarlin 19:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you two stop wasting space here with silly comments? Thank You. Octoplus 11:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Just as soon as you stop filling the talk pages with silly comments. Oops, I guess you were blocked and banned already. My bad.--Filll 15:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

No need to be too sarcastic now. Creepzerg3 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Rtc, you do not have long here

Once you are accused of being Raspor that is the signal you will be banned. Put in your email address so I can contact you.

I have determine that you are not in fact Raspor, despite the great similarities in style of editing. I apologize for the accusation, and I have asked that it be withdrawn. Orangemarlin 09:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Verisimilitude (literature)

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Verisimilitude (literature), and it appears to be a substantial copy of http://encyclopedia.topliterature.com/?title=Verisimilitude. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot 19:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's been moved from the verisimilitude wikipedia article, from which it was taken on given page, stupid bot. --rtc 19:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Evolution is unfalsifiable

The section starts with a blatant lie ("Falsifiability was proposed by philosopher of science Karl Popper as a way to distinguish between science and pseudoscience") and goes on distorting the facts. It implicitly attributes to Popper a criterion philosophy, a philosophy trying to find criteria for goodness of something or good reasons for something. Popper himself actually rejected this view and falsifiability does not have the purpose which the section implicitly presupposes. Popper not only was not a philosopher of science, he harshly criticized the whole idea of such a philosophy, as you can for example read in his essay "On the non-existence of scientific method". Passages such as "In response to this criticism of evolution, numerous examples of potential ways to falsify evolution have been proposed. J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what hypothetical evidence could disprove evolution, replied "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era" (more recently, Richard Dawkins has made a similar observation)." display the incompetence of the writer: It was actually Popper himself who mentioned and discussed such arguments years before any of the cited sources. Popper has written more than a book about evolution, a fact which the section manages surprisingly well to not even mention once. It also fails to say why Popper opposed evolution in its naturalistic interpretation in the first place, and it fruther fails to say that he never changed his mind about that, and it also fails to say that Popper was from the very beginning a stark opponent of naturalism, scientific method, evidence-based science, support for theories, probability of theories and anything else put forward to give good reasons for or to justify belief in scientific theories. Or, to put it in Popper's own words: "The purpose of demarcation has been misunderstood completely." --rtc (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok very good. So who invented the notion of falsifiability then, if it was not Popper? And what examples of falsifiability did Popper present before Haldane? And do you have WP:RS for these points we can look at?--Filll (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Popper did invent falsifiability, but not for the purpose it it claimed to have here. Popper presented the example of a car in the Precambrian era, but noted that it would contradict only common descent, not the theory of evolution by natural selection (which Popper never opposed, however). I do not understand what makes a source reliable. All this is clearly written in Popper's works themselves, but people obviously never read them. Did you? If you want to know a source for any specific point, feel free to ask. --rtc (talk) 15:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait, I am confused. You started with the statement The section starts with a blatant lie ("Falsifiability was proposed by philosopher of science Karl Popper as a way to distinguish between science and pseudoscience". In what way is this a lie? All the papers and references I have read agree with this. I have not read his original works of course. I might have to eventually.--Filll (talk) 15:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a lie that Popper ever proposed falsifiability to distinguish science and pseudoscience. In fact, the word pseudoscience does not even occur once in The Logic of Scientific Discovery. It is not a coincidence that all your sources say something different about that. The distortion of Popper's views by the such-called mainstream interpretation of his views is well-known and well-documented and was criticized harshly and opposed to by Popper himself. Popper even noted that he thinks that most people writing about his work never actually read it. --rtc (talk) 16:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It is difficult to evaluate many of your claims without links to peer-reviewed papers or reliable sources of university sites or book excerpts. You seem to rant on and on about how we have everything wrong, which might be correct. So what can you show us so we can check your claims?--Filll (talk) 16:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand exactly what you mean. If I point you to "Les chemins de la vérité. L'Express va plus loin avec Karl Popper", In: L'Express, (1598, 26th February) 1982, 82-88, for the car example, I suppose that does not fulfil your requirements. It is an interview with Popper in which he summarizes his views on evolution (I suppose you don't want to read the books in which he writes about the issue at length; Knowledge and the body-mind problem and Objective Knowledge). It is neither peer-reviewed nor a "reliable source" (whatever you mean by that). Poppers works themselves are also neither peer-reviewed nor "reliable" (as he himself would most certainly deny that they are, as he held that reliability does not exist), and many works and papers that are peer-reviewed and claim to be reliable contain this false information. Popper criticizes criterion philosophy literally under that name in the Addendum to The Open Society and Its Enemies. "On the non-existence of scientific method" is the preface to Popper's book Realism and the Aim of Science, and his stark opposition to the claim that something like scientific evidence or scientific data exists can be found, most strongly, in Karl R. Popper, David W. Miller: A proof of the impossibility of inductive probability. Nature 302 (1983), 687–688 (which is also just a letter to the editor, not a peer-reviewed paper) BTW, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, the work that introduced falsifiability, in fact was a criticism of positivism, which is the general view held by the people that are nowadays so hostile towards pseudoscience. Of course there is also some truth in the claim that falsifiability and pseudoscience are related; Popper's initial problem long before publishing anything about it was to distinguish science and pseudoscience (as you can read in his autobiography in P.A.Schilpp (Ed.): The Philosophy of Karl Popper), and the chapter "Science: Conjectures and refutations" of Popper's Conjectures and Refutations makes some very ambiguous statements about that. ---rtc (talk) 16:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

You are giving me good examples of why all philosphy is nonsense and why all scientists ignore the horse manure produced by philosophers.--Filll (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Popperians could not agree more. In fact, W.W.Bartley, a student of Popper, once wrote: "Sir Karl Popper is not really a participant in the contemporary professional philosophical dialogue; quite the contrary, he has ruined that dialogue. If he is on the right track, then the majority of professional philosophers the world over has wasted or is wasting their intellectual careers. The gulf between Popper's way of doing philosophy and that of the bulk of professional philosophers is as great as that between astronomy and astrology." --rtc (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I only care about Popper since falsifiability and related areas has been used as a weapon by creationists against evolution. It has also become part of US law and judicial practice.--Filll (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, creationists are notorious to take things out of context. Nobody who has ever read Popper's writings on evolution could say that he ever seriously opposed it. Concerning the court thing, I just recently read an article (I don't remember which one anymore) by a Popperian who stronlgy criticized such use of falsifiability. From a popperian perspective, prescribed curricula themselves are the root of all evil, not the question of criteria for things to teach in a prescribed curriculum. Without prescribed curricula, the whole problem disappears. Note: Non-prescribed curricula does not mean that parents choose what their children will be taught (such as homeschooling), but it means the children themselves choose what they want to be taught, and it also means that the state enforces the autonomy of the children's choice against any attempts to impose the choice on the children, including by parents, religion, scientific mainstream, or anything like that. That does not mean laissez faire education and it is too complex and nuanced to outline it fully here, but it is certainly quite radical. --rtc (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I am guessing you might not be in the United States. If you are, I apologize, but assuming you are not, let me try to explain what is going on here, which is not always apparent from outside. The repeated lawsuits here are because a certain body representing the religious views of perhaps 10% or less of the US population is pushing to have science classes in secular schools supported by public tax money promote their religious views. Not only do they want to make this possible, but they want this to be required, and they are pushing for the capability to put teachers who disagree with this in jail. That is what the battle is about; to have the power to put teachers who disagree with promoting a tiny religious view in a science class in jail. Note that it is legal in the US to promote this view:

• in home schools
• in religious schools
• in private schools
• in public schools in nonscience classes
• in public schools in science classes if the teacher and the teacher's employer agrees (that is, it is voluntary)

The ONLY situation in which there are problems is (1)when the teacher disagrees, and (2) in public secular schools paid for with public money, and (3) in science classes. Otherwise, this narrow religious view can be promoted, with no legal problems. So this fighting is sort of insane, in the United States. And the creationists describe it as free speech and all kinds of other dishonest ways. What it really is about is forcing nonbelievers to promote this religion with other people's money in science classes, or go to jail. --Filll (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right that I have only a vague idea about the US school system. I am happy that these are non-issues where I live. It is my impression that what you write is missing form Creation and evolution in public education, at least in this clarity. I wish you happy holidays. --rtc (talk) 18:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not write that article. Maybe I should think about contributing there, if I can dredge up some references.--Filll (talk) 19:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

December 2007

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Objections to evolution. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. OrangeMarlin 02:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Karl Popper Edits

Hi,

I'm interested in editing a few aspects of the Karl Popper page. I am working with an 80 year old man who was a contemporary of his and a "friend." My 80 year old friend would like to see the intro paragraph made more coherent for a lay person. Comments?

Thanks, Pete --Petebertine (talk) 22:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Pete, just go ahead! Don't be afraid to rewrite the intro paragraph, or even the whole article, if you wish. If you have any specific questions or need help, just post to Talk:Karl Popper. Greetings to your friend. What does he think about Misplaced Pages? --rtc (talk) 17:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

My old friend Ben

My old friend sees everything wrong in the world and would like to see the entire Popper page written by someone whom as he says, "Speaks English as a first or second language." This is his criticism for much of what he has seen on Misplaced Pages, "It's written by people who are so impressed with themselves that they can't get their inflated heads outside to see what the real world is about." Funny old coot is Ben. He has done some incredible things in his life and has actually saved several species from extinction. As for Popper, Ben worked with the English Parliament in the 50s and 60s helping to form what was then very left wing stuff that is now distinctly right wing and that's about all I understand about English governing systems.

What is really pissing him off is the meme page. He looked at the meme page and laughed. Together we identified about 3 Co$ people and several attempts to try to prove that Dawkins believes in god. One day not long ago I spent 4 hours trying to slash out all the dead flesh on the meme page. I had done a decent job and then a bot came along and accused me of being a vandal and erased everything I had done. I giggled and realized that probably some kind of Artificial Intelligence had been injected into Misplaced Pages by the guys at Google. But I am still hopeful that grey matter will beat out silicone and in the end the machines will keep working for us.

Keep up the good fight and thanks for the words of encouragement.

By the way, do you have any idea what "Misplaced Pages Editors" are getting paid to promote corporate agendas? 100s of thousands. In fact Vice Magazine asked me to try to get them off the black list and offered big bucks to do it. I said hold the cash and just let me see what is wrong. Wow! They screwed up... there needs to be wikipedia outreach programs for wikipedia abuse. Soon there will be specialized Misplaced Pages consultants. I suggest that you guys prepare guidelines before it becomes overwhelming.

Wish I had more time to work the pedia. Till I can make a living off doing it I will only declare myself king of the meme page.

--Petebertine (talk) 05:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The Hacker discussion

It's more than a week after the fact, so I apologize for digging up what may be old dirt, but I've just had this pointed out to me by someone who seems pretty upset by it. Comments like "Your country, and other English speaking countries, or other countries in general are insignificant, unimportant and irrelevant..." seem a bit personal, and may flare up very defensive, nationalistic sentiment in other users who feel singled out, or could otherwise prevent calm, reasonable discussion. Other editors may quite understandably be offended by such a sentiment, so I'd personally appreciate it if you could try to self-moderate such statements in the future. Granted the diff I'm linking is a week old, but I'd rather head off potential problems as soon as possible. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Luna, please don't let you fool by this troll. When I made that statement I preceded it with "I answer to questions by using style of thinking:" and it was followed by "As already said, this would be the answer using style of thinking. Not the style of thinking that I prefer." When Andrew quoted the text in , he took the statements out of context by completely omitting that cruical clarification. --rtc (talk) 16:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah. That does alter the context significantly, but I could still a reasonable person taking offense to that, either because of the raw statement directly -- context or not -- or because such a sentiment was attributed to themself, effectively putting the words right in their mouth. It's tempting to make points in that sort of fashion, but especially online, posts like that almost beg to be taken out of context and waved around like flags. I don't believe that was your intention, though; I poked around a bit and didn't notice any history of your making such comments; this was more of a "be careful" note, for future reference. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Staying cool while the editing gets hot

Hey. I just wanted to recommend WP:COOL as a good read. I think it's pretty clear that Andrew8127498278917 is trolling, and I think that will be clear to any admin that reviews the situation. Even so, it's probably good if we are all infailingly civil, in both what we write and in edit summaries, even when provoked.

Regards, Nandesuka (talk) 05:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

lol, I thought your edit and edit summary were funny. Enigma 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration Filed in the "Hacker" article

In accordance with clause (4) of the Arbitration Filing Procedure, you are hereby being notified that you have been mentioned as a contributing party to the article and you can make a statement.

You can find the claim, and make your statement here.

I am required to tell you this information I am the filing party for the arbitration claim.

Andrew81446 (talk) 06:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Falsifiability of "conspiracy theories"

I've noticed at talk:falsifiability that you are one of the editors there who have actually read Popper ;) I'm currently trying to deal with the references to Popper in the article conspiracy theory and I was wondering whether you might be able to help me with a few things. I am trying to get my facts and ideas straight before I actually say anything at the article talk page, which can be quite a hornets' nest sometimes. I hope I am not trying to impose on you too much :)

I have already deleted one piece of what appears to be pure "original research".

This leaves two more references, the first being another claim about falsifiability in Conspiracy theory#The "Rationality Theorem". Putting aside the crude generalisation about the thinking of "conspiracy theorists" which is at the core of Allison's argument, would what Allison calls "rationalistic" thinking in fact make a theory unfalsifiable? Or to put it another way, is Allison's argument an obvious over-creative interpretation of Popper's (or any other respected philosopher's) thought, or might it actually have some merit and be worthy of further investigation (such as ordering the book through my public library)?

The third reference is to Popper's conspiracy theory of society. This is obviously a different kettle of fish in that it genuinely does deserve a place in the article. Nevertheless I find it striking that Popper's main reason for asserting the falsity of "conspiracy theories" is that "conspirators rarely consummate their conspiracy". Popper appears to offer no evidence to support this assertion. Is this simply a sloppy argument on Popper's part, or have I missed something? Popper also appears to make the same kind of crude generalisation as Allison by effectively saying that all those who believe that there are powerful groups secretly plotting big conspiracies also believe that those groups are responsible for all the evils of the world. Has anyone written anything that might shed light on this apparent error?

Many thanks! ireneshusband (talk) 07:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Popper does not assert "the falsity of 'conspiracy theories'". Popper asserts the falsity of the conspiracy theory. This is a distinct technical term in his book: "In order to make my point clear, I shall briefly describe a theory which is widely held but which assumes what I consider the very opposite of the true aim of the social sciences; I call it the ‘conspiracy theory of society’. It is the view that an explanation of a social phenomenon consists in the discovery of the men or groups who are interested in the occurrence of this phenomenon (sometimes it is a hidden interest which has first to be revealed), and who have planned and conspired to bring it about." (chapter 14, Open Society) Popper does not say that "conspirators rarely consummate their conspiracy" because there is "evidence" for that, his claim is much stronger. He says that it is logically impossible for conspirators to consummate their conspiracy flawlessly, because conspirators are lacking omniscience just the same way as anyone else and are facing unintended consequences of their actions the same way as anyone else: "One of the most primitive economic actions may serve as an example in order to make the idea of unintended consequences of our actions quite clear. If a man wishes urgently to buy a house, we can safely assume that he does not wish to raise the market price of houses. But the very fact that he appears on the market as a buyer will tend to raise market prices. And analogous remarks hold for the seller. Or to take an example from a very different field, if a man decides to insure his life, he is unlikely to have the intention of encouraging some people to invest their money in insurance shares. But he will do so nevertheless. We see here clearly that not all consequences of our actions are intended consequences; and accordingly, that the conspiracy theory of society cannot be true because it amounts to the assertion that all results, even those which at first sight do not seem to be intended by anybody, are the intended results of the actions of people who are interested in these results." Popper is not "saying that all those who believe that there are powerful groups secretly plotting big conspiracies also believe that those groups are responsible for all the evils of the world", he criticizes those who say that "groups responsible for all the evils of the world" Popper even gives examples of conspiracies in politics that succeeded (in a different source which I don't know exactly where to find anymore, I think it was one of the footnotes of one of the writings in Popper Selections), but his basic views seems to be that if a conspiracy succeeds to reach its goal, then it can only be a small one, as in his opinion big goals cannot be reached with one big blow, regardless of wether it is done openly or secretly (and because of the lack of independent review and criticism perhaps even less successfully in the second case). --rtc (talk) 08:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I have replied inline, ok? Colonel Warden (talk) 13:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Creationism2

Template:Creationism2 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Neelix (talk) 20:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Deprecating GFDL 1.2-only on en.wiki

Thought you might be interested in this discussion going on about deprecating the use of GFDL 1.2-only licensing tags on en.wiki. Cheers. Kaldari (talk) 16:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Hacker category

Hello. I see that you made an attempt to rename a category on Hacker (programming subculture). If renaming the category is what you wish to do, the way to do that is to go to the Category page, move the page itself, and then update the pages within it as necessary. The Wordsmith 02:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

There is no move button on the category page? The desired target is Category:Hacking (programmer subculture), which I already created. --rtc (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems you are correct. When I saw the page, that category was listed as a redlink. I probably just needed to purge my cache or something. The Wordsmith 03:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Herbert Schildt

An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Herbert Schildt. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Misplaced Pages:Notability and "What Misplaced Pages is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Herbert Schildt. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.

Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Hacker Computer Security

Hey, I reverted your edits again, The categories are accurate as the article covers information regarding the programmer and hobbyist subcultures. Especially the programmer culture. Groups such as Hak5 prove that all three can coexist. As for the book, I have not read it, but the original poster has made a reference to it, and we cant really judge the content. This falls into the WP:TRUTH area of wikipedia. The section is referenced with a book citation, and is therefore suitable for inclusion. We should discuss the issue here before another revert, to avoid violating 3RR. Sephiroth storm (talk) 23:34, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Sephiroth. The article, by its very name, excludes programmer and hobbyist subcultures, which have different articles. The whole point of the existence of these different articles is to keep different things separate from each other. Even if some references are made in this article to the other subcultures, that is not a reason for adding these incorrect categories. The same way as we don't put Barrack Obama into the category "Former Conservative President" despite the fact that many references are made to the former conservative president, George W. Bush. If you have not read the book and don't know the background it is even more puzzling why you start reverting. These points are all too obvious for anyone with only a little bit of knowledge on the subject. What you essentially say is "Well, I do not have a clue about the things I revert, but I do it anyway" The book, contrary to what is implied by quoting it like that in this article, does not talk about computer security ethic. In sharp contrast, the author has criticized computer security hackers as unethical according to this ethic. And why can't WE (meaning neither me, nor you, I suppose) judge the book merely because YOU have not read it? --rtc (talk) 17:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

AFS links

Hi, thanks for adding the links to old HTML drafts. However, I have never heard of AFS hyperlinks, and cannot find any information on them on internet. Could you tell me what the AFS protocol is? I have found information about the Andrew File System and the AtheOS File System, but I do not see them using hyperlink protocols. Possibly it's an old protocol from before the HTML time. Maybe you can tell me where you found these AFS links to the old HTML drafts? — Peter (talk) 11:02, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Philosophy of Science version of Science article

Hi, there are some doubts about your recent edits on the above mentioned article. Discussion has started here. Could you come and help others try to understand the aims and sources and where your edits are headed? Maybe others can help also to get this section better in ways which also match your ideas.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:39, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

March 2011

Please do not add or change content without verifying it by citing reliable sources, as you did to Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant. Before making any potentially controversial edits, it is recommended that you discuss them first on the article's talk page. Please review the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Regarding this edit - 220.101 talk 13:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I actually did that long before you sent me this message. Please see the discussion page of that article, where discussion is going on. --rtc (talk) 13:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

This is taken from the article cited: "There had been no meltdown in reactor No 3, government spokesman Yukio Edano said. Earlier he had said that a 'partial meltdown' could not be ruled out." which clearly says "no meltdown". Serazahr (talk) 15:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes! And that was what the text citing the source said. You changed it into the opposite, claiming he disclaimed that there was no meltdown, that is, claiming he said there was a meltdown. --rtc (talk)

My bad sorry didn't see the dis- part Serazahr (talk) 15:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents#Reactor_unit_2

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others and avoid editing disruptively.

In particular, the three-revert rule states that:

1. Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from editing without further notice.

Fukushima I nuclear accidents

Please use JST not UTC, also, a news ticker is not a suitably reliable source. Thanks --Pontificalibus (talk) 14:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

ARD (broadcaster) is "the world's largest public broadcaster". Their newsticker is reliable and has been reliable ever since the disaster started, often having news earlier than all other sources. The TECPO statement will turn up on other newstickers as well in some minutes. I am sorry about not using JST, I always give the time from the source. Feel free to change it. --rtc (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

See the talk page message in the article about the reliability of news blogs. It is best to wait until you can find an article, they are normally updated a few minutes after the ticker. We have to do this anyway as in a month's time the news ticker reference will not work.--Pontificalibus (talk) 15:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

FukushimaI rad long term prequake.PNG

Why did you change the licensing info on File:FukushimaI rad long term prequake.PNG? Why is it ineligible for copyright? -Theanphibian 16:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It's ineligible very obviously because there is no originality involved. --rtc (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

reverse barnstar

Fancy-cats-are-happy-cats (talk) 09:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

End of validity of US patent on IDEA

In International_Data_Encryption_Algorithm Rtc/you wrote, circa December 2010 about U.S. Patent 5,214,703, issued May 25, 1993, in justification to a patent expiry on January 7, 2012:

"Note that the PGP FAQ still claims the expiry date of the US patent to be May 25, 2010. However, US patent law was changed in 1995 such that patents now expire 20 years after filing, not 17 years after issuing. This holds retroactively for all patents that had not yet expired at the time the changed law came into effect, and it thus holds for IDEA."

Agreed, the stated change in patent law did occur and does applies retroactively to U.S. 5,214,703. But IMHO the patent still expires 17 years from issue date, that is after May 25, 2010 as claimed in the PGP FAQ.

The key point is that the protection under the new law, as defined by 35 U.S.C. 154(a)(2), lasts "20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under section 120, 121, or 365(c) of this title, from the date on which the earliest such application was filed.". The patent claims priority w.r.t. a Swiss patent filed May 18, 1990, and that is the start of the 20 years period, which thus ends May 18, 2010, that is slightly before the end of the 17 year period which ends May 25, 2010. The protection afforded to the licensee by the old law is NOT removed retroactively, and thus protection ends May 25, 2010.

I located the Swiss patent by checking under foreign priority in the status of the US patent 5214703 at <http://portal.uspto.gov/external/portal/pair>

I am open to contradiction, and more than willing to examine any reference to the January 7, 2012 date (which was introduced on that page on May 19, 2009, without reference).

Fgrieu (talk) 16:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Follop-up on this at Talk:International Data Encryption Algorithm#Patent expiration date Fgrieu (talk) 05:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for those edits to Karl Popper

I'd been wanting to get round to having a good look at and edit of the Karl Popper page so thank you for saving me the time. Absolutely first rate edits. Reichsfürst (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Hitchhiker

Continuously inserting uncited material into an article may be construed as vandalism. Please stop. Student7 (talk) 22:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 8

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Stop the personal attacks

This on ANI: "he's doing it deliberately, not merely accidentally out of enthusiasm or something." was - in context of what you've already been saying, and my warning in general (and specifically to you) a personal attack. Please review WP:NPA. Ongoing personal attacks are not OK on Misplaced Pages. Please stop this now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

No, it certainly wasn't a personal attack. It was stating the user's own agenda, as proclaimed by himself on his user page. --rtc (talk) 03:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Let others judge what his agenda is. You ARE over the line into making personal attacks on him. I have warned you about that. If you continue making personal attacks I or another administrator can block you for WP:NPA policy violations.

It would be best if you stepped back and stopped engaging on the topic entirely. A whole lotta people know about it now, nothing he's doing is escaping scrutiny, and your agenda is clouding your own judgement and behavior. I can't order you to, but it's probably in your best interest if you find something else to do for a while. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no personal attack whatsoever in what I said. See WP:WIAPA for what a personal attack is. See WP:AVOIDYOU for what a personal attack is not, especially: "discussion of a user's conduct or history is not in itself a personal attack when done in the appropriate forum for such discussion (e.g. ... WP:ANI, ...)." You are right, however, that I am beating a dead horse. I already said so. And you are beating a dead horse, too, by right now continuing this fruitless discussion here. --rtc (talk) 03:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, if you (or anyone else) block over those comments it will be a long time before you hear the end of it. Drmies (talk) 03:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Let me clarify something, which Georgewilliamherbert perhaps misunderstood: I am not saying the user is neccessarily a nazi. He might be doing it deliberately for other reasons, but he is doing it deliberately, even purposefully (see the statement on his user page), not accidentally. That's the point I wanted to stress, nothing else. --rtc (talk) 03:47, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Reply

I don't have time to work on it, but I'd suggest you peruse the list of secondary sources already available as cited works in the various article pages you've come across already. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Edits

You are at 3/4 reverts. Probably best to get consensus before reverting again. Per WP:MEDRS we should be using stuff from the last 3-5 years if possible. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Yobol (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Violating 3RR at Circumcision

Hi Rtc,

You've got over 3000 edits and you've been around a while, and I can see from your User Talk page here that you've been notified about the 3RR before, so there's no reason for me to template you, but you are clearly over the 3RR at Circumcision:

1. 05:40, 28 August 2012
2. 23:24, 28 August 2012
3. 23:33, 28 August 2012
4. 23:52, 28 August 2012
5. 02:41, 29 August 2012
6. 06:20, 29 August 2012

This is your "official warning", please stop edit-warring. It's clear from discussion at the article that a convincing case hasn't been made for your position, please provide a more convincing argument at the article Talk page, or please stop edit-warring against consensus. I'll look for your response at the article Talk page. Thanks.... Zad68 13:00, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I have made a convincing case. My case has merely been ignored... --rtc (talk) 13:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a funny thing to say you have made a convincing case when three of your fellow experienced editors haven't been convinced by it. It fails WP:AGF to assume your fellow editors are wilfully ignoring a convincing argument. Let's keep this discussion at the article Talk page. Zad68 13:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 16

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Bayesian Epistemology

I still don't think that the Bayesian epistemology is on topic. The lead correctly identifies Bayesian methods as a rational way to UPDATE beliefs. That doesn't imply that it tells you anything about whether a given belief is rational or not, which is the subject of epistemology. E.g. if you have an irrational prior then rational updates to your degree of belief in your irrational prior does not give you a rational justification for your belief in the end. The first part, the rational updates of belief, is the topic of this article on Bayesian inference, while the last part, rational justification of beliefs, is the topic Bayesian epistemology.

Hopefully you agree that putting the epistemology comments in the section on applications is a good compromise. The use of Bayesian techniques in epistemology is an application of Bayesian inference, and an application that is subject to some valid criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaleSpam (talk • contribs)

"E.g. if you have an irrational prior then rational updates to your degree of belief in your irrational prior does not give you a rational justification for your belief in the end" But that is exactly the point of bayesian inference, that given rational updates, all beliefs will converge to the same probability, so, eventually, given enough evidence, everyone with have the same probabilities for all beliefs. Miller's book notes, however, that there are very many version of Bayesianism and it is sometimes hard to say what they amount to. I agree with your solution, though. --rtc (talk) 00:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Marc Maiffret

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"Relevance" issue in Microsoft Excel

Hello, Rtc.

It appears I did not explain the relevance issue properly in my last edit summary. Very sorry. (Though, I thought you perhaps knew, given that you aren't exactly new here.) So, here it is:

"Relevance", as I said in my edit summary, concerns "content relevance" as established by WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOT. According to WP:NOTADVERT, contents contribute in one article should not advertise or seem to advertise another subject, especially another product. (I might add that articles are not even allowed to advertise their subject.) That said, the only way to mention gnumeric in Microsoft Excel is the following:

1. If there are reliable secondary sources that compare Excel with gnumeric and if this comparison has due weight, then you may include a line or two about this similarity in the article by citing the sources. Even then, you should stick to MOS:LAYOUT: Novel info should not be added to the article lead.
2. If the above conditions do not meet (even if you have personally observed that gnumeric's similarity with Excel is significant and worthy of comment) the only way to attach gnumeric to Microsoft Excel in a neutral manner is to put a link to it in Comparison of spreadsheet software article.

By the way, "well known" is a weasel word and is not allowed, per WP:WEASEL.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 07:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

By not mentioning that this alternative exists, the Excel article is in violation of WP:NOTADVERT. It is obvious the article is trying hard to hide the fact that alternatives exist, in clear violation of WP:NPOV. I strongly disagree that "the only way to attach gnumeric to Microsoft Excel in a neutral manner is to put a link to it in Comparison of spreadsheet software article" -- especially given the fact that "Comparison of spreadsheet software" is hidden in such a way that alternatives do not receive their due weight at all. In this context, Gnumeric is not merely one of many spreadsheet software programs, it is one with Excel compatibility as the design goal, to make available an open source alternative. There is nothing to be "personally observed" about this; did you read the gnumeric article? If you use a search engine, you will see that it is frequently mentioned as an alternative --rtc (talk) 08:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello. Per WP:GACR, clause 3b, an article must talk about nothing whatsoever except its own subject. The due weight for another subject in Microsoft Excel article is by default zero, unless the contributor provides citations in secondary reliable sources that prove otherwise. Now, instead of showing me those sources, you toss some Google hits? To put it bluntly, it pretty much seems to me that you are trying to use Excel's fame as a mean of gaining publicity for your favorite app. You can call an WP:3O or WP:RFC if you wish but I don't think anyone would agree with you. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The fact that an open source clone of some application exists is part of the subject of that application, as the relation to any other subject. To me, it seems you are drawing false conclusions from some wikipedia policies just to keep the article free from anything that could be harmful to the interests of Microsoft. That conflicts WP:NOTADVERT and WP:NPOV. The google hits provide enough sources and asking for "citations in secondary reliable sources" for an uncontroversial, obvious fact seems not justified, as if we need an academic paper to say that a program with the explicit purpose of being excel clone is actually an excel clone. --rtc (talk) 11:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Ways to improve Lai-Massey scheme

Hi, I'm Sulfurboy. Rtc, thanks for creating Lai-Massey scheme!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. 2

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Sulfurboy (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Shit test

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A tag has been placed on Shit test requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about something invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time.

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You've had the required discussion with the deleting admin (ie: your humble narrator). And I'm not minded to undelete it. You know the ropes, and are no doubt well aware of Misplaced Pages:Deletion review and the other bureaucratic stuff. I'm not particularly fond of 'em either. It's fine by me if you re-start the article. Just add references this time round. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't have any discussion; the article was speedy deleted before I became aware of the deletion request. Can you please at least restore the article into my user name space? --rtc (talk) 13:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Suit yourself. User:Rtc/Shit test. --Shirt58 (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks --rtc (talk) 15:19, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Karl Popper

Hello. I'm sorry I removed that text about Bela Kun. However, I did try to find a source for it and failed. You can see from my edits that I am usually very good at finding sources as I've been doing this for a while now. Nevertheless, it is not true that we should not remove uncited text without looking for a source. According to WP:proveit, "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be replaced without an inline citation to a reliable source. ". This text was tagged - not by me - so I tried to find a source. I did not have to, but I did. My deletion was not arbitrary - that is an insult. And I'm sorry I failed. Myrvin (talk) 06:52, 11 July 2014 (UTC) I have made some comments about this area of the article in its Talk page. Myrvin (talk) 10:04, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry for my arbitrary edit comment. --rtc (talk) 13:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Cheers. Myrvin (talk) 18:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

October 2014

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Energy Catalyzer. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

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October 2014

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  Bbb23 (talk) 04:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Rtc (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Long stopped reverting. Blocks are not punishments.

Decline reason:

Your unblock request doesn't provide enough information to convince me that you understand where you went wrong. In your next unblock request, you should explain how you will handle situations differently in the future. PhilKnight (talk) 12:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

• You stopped reverting when the report at WP:AN3 was filed, but the central problem is that you showed no insight into your conduct at AN3, which means I had no confidence that you would not continue to disrupt the article, and blocks are intended to prevent future disruption. Indeed, you defended all your edits from the central disputed text to the tag you battled over when you didn't get your way.--Bbb23 (talk) 05:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I think I quite clearly stated on the discussion page of that article that I'm not going to waste any further energy on it. --rtc (talk) 05:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

{{unblock|1=I requested unblock based on WP:GAB, first case: "that the block is in fact not necessary to prevent damage or disruption (i.e., that the block violates our blocking policy);" (specifically, WP:NOPUNISH). I did not request unblock based on "no longer necessary because you understand what you are blocked for, you will not do it again, and you will make productive contributions instead". The block being invalid to begin with, to request unblock, it is not necessary to convince anyone that I "understand". As already stressed above, at the time the block was made, I had already clearly stated I was not going to waste any further energy on the article, and in fact had stopped reverting long before. Hence there was no damage or disruption to prevent and thus no valid reason to block me.}}

• FWIW, if you had been blocked several days after you stopped reverting, I'd agree with you. However, after a report is filed at WP:AN3, it often takes a few hours to be dealt with, and I don't consider this to be grounds for an unblock. PhilKnight (talk) 15:02, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • But the principle is that blocks should be used only to prevent future disruption. Arguing along the lines of "if it hadn't taken a few hours it wouldn't have been punitive" is counterfactual. At the time of the block, things had already been resolved; the block served no valid material purpose. It was based on the judgement taking only the AN3 discussion into account, not my more recent messages on the article discussion page. PS: Looking again at the discussion page, ironically, it seems now opinions are actually beginning to change more in favour of my position that mentioning the stuff in the article isn't that wrong after all. --rtc (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• I appreciate this doesn't directly reply to your last post, but do you seriously believe that you communicated that in your first unblock request? As reviewing admin, I looked at the time of your reverts, and when you were blocked, because you said "Long stopped reverting". You seem to be saying that your seven word unblock appeal adequately communicated why you should be unblocked. From my perspective, it's your role to convince the reviewing administrator that you won't cause any further disruption by edit warring. PhilKnight (talk) 10:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

  See my short comment below the first unblock request box in reply to Bbb23. --rtc (talk) 15:33, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Welcome back after your block. PhilKnight (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather welcome a notice in my block log clarifying that the block was in fact punitive, not preventive, and hence against the rules. Sitting out complaints against such blocks, not granting an unblock, leads to a de facto regime of punitive blocks. It cannot be accepted that the rules clearly forbid such blocks, yet de facto they are applied and accepted anyway. Such blocks must no be without consquences. A block log notice clearly stating the invalidity of the block is a good way to decrease the incentive for gaming the system like that. --rtc (talk) 12:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're interested, but I wrote an essay WP:In praise of 1RR about why sticking to 1RR is a good idea. PhilKnight (talk) 13:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather like to see essays speaking out against the gross overuse of administrative power rather than pages tending to justify it. And I'd even more like to see my block log being amended by a note saying that the most recent block was not in line with WP:NOPUNISH --rtc (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

March 2015

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AirAsia QZ8501

Don't feel bad about doing the right thing. Here is a another mainstream reliable source pointing to murder suicide by pilot in another case:

Telegraph Mid-air explosion? Mechanical failure? A bomb?The crash of flight QZ8501 has spawned numerous far-fetched theories, including murder-suicide by the pilot or a terrorist attack – though no one has claimed responsibility. Bachcell (talk) 18:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

No personal attacks

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April 2015

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Case at WP:ANI

There is currently a discussion at WP:ANI regarding regarding your contributions to the discussion at Talk:Germanwings Flight 9525. The thread is Incivility by Rtc.The discussion is about the topic Topic. Thank you.

Obviously your input into the issue would be most valuable. --wintonian 05:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)