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Issue with User:Verdy P

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

verdy p (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please review the user Verdy P and the way he responds to users on wikipedia, as can be seen on his Talk page. I originally inquired why a page title was changed, in addition to some of its content. He did provide a valid reason for the former, but had no valid points for why he changed the content and made it more incorrect. I tried to explain this to him, but he instead chose to insist that he is correct, despite being proven wrong with facts, and continued to respond with arrogance, and then rudeness. As you can see in his latest reply on the issue, he proceeds to use inflammatory words and declares that he will delete any further replies from me, which he did.

I don't think this is the attitude that regular wikipedia editors should be displaying; it also should not be tolerated because he can easily just continue with these questionable edits and dismiss everyone who tries to correct him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@70.51.38.110: You must notify users when you start a discussion about them on this noticeboard. I have taken care of that for you. Ivanvector (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. His response was heavy handed and haughty KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 16:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please clarify—which response was heavy handed and haughty? Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I've said repeatedly to him that I had already replied to the answer, but he insists in discussing about things I'm not interested. I have said him to stop this discussion and discuss it somewhere else.

He continues... I've just stoped this discussion going nowhere, my talk page is not the appropriate place for that. What can I do? verdy_p (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You are not interested in the subject, and yet you keep insisting that whatever information you put into the article is valid, even with lack of proof?70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• I saw some of the discussion (User talk:Verdy p has been on my watchlist since April 2013 when Verdy p provided some very helpful advice). The IP is completely misguided—we are volunteers and expecting people to argue indefinitely on their user talk page is very unreasonable. Verdy gave several detailed explanations (the section is now 1950 words), and the fact the IP does not like the replies does not entitle them to waste even more volunteer time at ANI. In general, if an editor thinks a page title is not correct and they not sure how to discuss that, they should ask at WP:HELPDESK. Harassing someone on their talk page is not helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Because you are volunteers, it gives you the permission to respond to people with arrogance and call them names? Because that is what he had been doing in all of his replies. It seems to me that you did not read the entire discussion, nor did you try to understand the details of why the discussion had been prolonged. Verdy had made some changes to the content of an article, which were incorrect changes. Despite my many attempts to explain to him why those changes are incorrect, using facts and clear evidence, he continued to insist that I am the one who is wrong (again, with invalid arguments); so you are saying that I should simply agree to whatever he says, even when he's wrong. Sorry, but being a volunteer does not entitle you to treat others with a lack of respect; it does not make your words and assumptions the absolute truth and it certainly does not label others who try to fix your errors as harassers. Also, the argument would not have extended "indefinitely" had Verdy at least tried to carefully read my replies and humbly accept that he was mistaken; not wanting to admit his mistake was a bigger priority to him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Nothing the IP has done is harassment. You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend). Furthermore, in addition to the harassment claim, you told the IP that he was "wasting time here at ANI." You seem to have exactly the same civility and superiority complex-toward IPs issues Verdy has. I hope that's only because you're heated about your friend being brought up here at ANI. --DawnDusk (talk) 03:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Repeatedly posting to a user's talk page is a minor form of harassment. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

No it is not a form of harassment when those repeated posts are replies to the user. If I had been posting a bunch of additions without any replies and simply filling up the talk page with provoking messages, then yes, that would be harassment. Don't tell me that users aren't allowed to post replies in an attempt to correct someone, claiming that such would be a form of harassment. If it's in the clause for you volunteers to have the right to be stubborn and unwilling to accept when you're wrong, then I'm sorry for the "harassment".70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The moment I saw Verdy's message that included "IP accounts like yours have very low trust among Misplaced Pages users, they are frequently reverted," it became clear to me that we have a WP:CIVILITY issue as well as a lack of understanding of WP:IPs are human too. Verdy has certainly tipped his hand about his bad faith towards the IP that makes anyone trying to argue that he isn't being a WP:JERK and needs to take a step back here simply wrong. If the IP can produce his sources that show 1. The North American release is the only official one. and 2. It's referred to as "C: The Contra Adventure" by the game's own manual, then he's entirely in the right. However, even if he is wrong, Verdy has handled this quite poorly. Side note: other damning comments include " like you stupidely continue to do here" and "if you want trust you DO need a personal account". --DawnDusk (talk) 03:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I was going to provide sources, but you're right, his talk page isn't the place to list them. I have plenty of sources that confirm what I posted; but even if I did try to provide them at the right page, as Verdy stated, he doesn't care about the game. That, I find rather contradictory for someone who claims they are correct on a matter that pertains to the game itself.70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Your reading is incorrect, and Verdy is a helpful editor, not my "friend". The advice given to the IP is completely correct—anyone caring about their privacy would make an account (see MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning which is displayed to the IP every time they click edit—Verdy's advice is merely echoing that official statement, with the extra and correct observation about reactions from many editors—whether those reactions are justified or not). Please don't conflate direct language with civility. The issue of the article title is not a matter to be settled on Verdy's talk page, as Verdy explained to the IP; also see my above reference to WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but correcting him when he's wrong is a matter to be settled because otherwise, that kind of attitude will follow him with further edits he makes on Misplaced Pages. Please don't tell me that you would condone such conduct. That has been the biggest issue with him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

On my talk page I have all the rights to give a personal opinion even if you think it is wrong, you cannot insist on changing it. My talk page is not a WP project.

As I said, I gave my opinion, you gave yours. All stops there when I've said I don't want to invest more time in additional topics that were not even the reason of his initial question.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion and give it on his personal page. It is not needed to force people to change their mind: this is abusive against my own freedom.

When we talk on WP, it is only to try convincing others people to join some **common** project, or agree together with some changes to do in an article or community project or when there are some concerted decisions to take by reaching some form of consensus (but there's nothing to do on my talk page where no public consensus is reachable).

How would have you reacted if I had asked you a question about Lie's algebra (or some other topic you're not interested in) and each time you gave some reply or opinion, I insisted multiple times during several days trying to convince you it was really important?

How do you react when you see your mailbox filled with notifications or ads for products you've never bought and don't want to buy but the notifier still repeats its alerts several times a day? You just put the mails to garbage. Yes this is named "harassment" if, after instructed the notifier to stop sending his post on the same topic continues (and in the email world, this is generally considered as "spam". verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You have every right to express your opinion on your Talk page. What is not permitted, I hope, is putting your opinion into the article and then insisting that you are correct about it, which is exactly what you did. You do have the freedom to believe what you want; but when you choose to ignore plain facts and stick with your own opinion on something when it is evidently false, you are simply deluded. You can have an opinion on things such as preference or taste; don't tell me that facts are opinion-based, tailored to each individual. Otherwise, this entire site would be useless.

As for how I would have reacted about the Lie's Algebra topic: unlike you, I would at least admit that I know little about the subject and therefore I am likely wrong about it. What did you do? You added false information about a subject for which you admittedly know little and have little interest about. Then, you continue to insist you are correct, as if you know the facts; again, for a subject for which you admittedly know little about and care little about.

Also, don't compare apples to oranges. You're talking about soliciting advertisements and SPAM mail that are sent to individuals unprovoked. They are sent in mass quantities regardless of your actions and/or interactions with them. What I did was address why you put incorrect information into the article's content (again, as I already said, I understood why the article title had to be changed). Instead of agreeing you made a mistake, you insisted that your edits to the article were not wrong. Then you instructed me to stop responding to you and be ok with you continuing to make similar edits to other articles with opinion-based information.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• I agree; you're right that this conversation absolutely should not have taken place on Verdy's talkpage. That is the fault of the IP, who wouldn't know better. That being said, Verdy still handled it awfully. His first response, rather than telling the IP to go to the right page, was to engage him with a lengthy reply (which already showed him getting heated in the last sentence and didn't mention the correct venue to use). Did you honestly expect the IP not to think to reply there? It wasn't until Verdy's very last reply, where he also said he would delete any new comment the IP posted (which is totally his right to do per user talkpage policy) that he directed him to the right page. By this time, Verdy had already been extremely rude and, as others have said, heavy-handed and haughty. And no, I honestly wouldn't say I'm "conflating direct language with civility". Check out the Avoiding Incivility section of WP:CIVILITY. He was intense, unprofessional, name-called, and became condescending - those are right there in that section. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that his "advice" about creating an account was correct. It had absolutely no place in the discussion, it wasn't brought up by the IP at all, and Verdy was clearly using the fact that he was an IP to condescend to him. Second, no, it isn't true that IPs aren't to be trusted, should be discredited in discourse, or "need" accounts. Like I said, I'm quite the fan of WP:IPs are human too as well as the plenty of other WP policies about it. The bottom line is that Verdy were going to respond in the uncivil manner that he did (as well as bringing up the user's IP status as a jerky point out of nowhere multiple times), he shouldn't have engaged the IP at all. The best thing he could have done was direct him to the article's talk page right away. You're making it sound like he did and, as you said, "explained it to the IP." He didn't (until the very end, as I said). --DawnDusk (talk) 07:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Sad to say, I might not have been able to master the patience for so much tedious explanation as Verdy p did when the IP wouldn't take no for an answer. The only problem wrt courtesy on Verdy's page that I can see is that they were a bit short with BracketBot. (That's supposed to be a joke.) IP, I'm afraid you expect too much time expenditure of our volunteers. @ DawnDusk: Golly, I recommend the parable of The Mote and the Beam to you, with your attack Johnuniq's integrity here. "You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend)", "given that he's your friend". Twice, you say it, and it's made up out of whole cloth. You're a fine one to talk about assuming bad faith. Am I to assume the IP is your friend? (To be clear, I don't suppose so for a moment.) Don't make such charges lightly, please. Bishonen | talk 10:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC).

Yes, Verdy is not at all out of line for his inflammatory responses. Instead, it is the fault of the IP user (me) for even having a problem with that. Because Verdy is a volunteer, right?70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• You're right. That was a mistake on my part and an indicator of my bad judgment. With that - I've said my piece. I will depart from this thread. I apologize to User:Johnuniq sincerely. DawnDusk (talk) 10:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if I was cited many times above, I do not understand the general spirit in most of what is written above, with many people making personal judgements without even knowing me or asking me.

The fact is that I tried to help for several days the same 70.51.38.110 IP editor, I tried to explain various things, but as he had already agreed why his initial question was fully answered (why the page was renamed), he continued to post messages for several days speaking about things unrelated to his initial question, trying to convince me about somthing I'm not interested in.

I was finally upset because I had instructed him not to continue his discussion in my talk page. I gave my opinion, he gave his own but this does not matter, I don't want to continue on this game topic (I was only concerned on why the page was renamed many months ago when I was interested in having the "C:" interwiki prefix being allocated to Commons).

Several times also I instructed him to sign his posted messages, and he didn't (but he criticized me immediately when trying to answer the first time to the many topics he started initially (he did not undestand why I splitted his message in several parts, when commenting them separately (in indended paragraphs all signed separately and not mixed at all with his own words). I just wanted to act fast, my talk page is not a wikipedia article and I don't want to take too much time.

Yes finally I was a bit rude but only in one word (after repeated attempts to have him stop his discussion).

For the rest I was helpful and very patient for several days. I had stopped the discussion on my talk page (this is my right jsut like everyone else in Wikimedia that no longer wants to discuss or being notified multiple times each day about topics they are not interested in), but as he refused that, I had to be more expeditive (I don't think it was "inflammatory" given the time I had already given for several days for a topic I was not interested in). I could have not replied anything and would not have given any help to him, but he still does not want to recognize that I was helpful and does not consider the time I already gave to him only.

But I don't know which WP policy I would have violated that merits a notification or action from administrators here, just for my own talk page (which was not the appropriate place to talk about the article) after all the time I gave voluntarily. Please 70.51.38.110, next time use the article talk page, or use the standard forums. I have been helpful enough about most of your questions but if you disagree the WP forums are there to discuss them: there are plenty of WP projects you can join (but I do not participate to the WP games portals or projects).

And was it really "haughty" to explain him that IP users are frequently not given any trust in many pages for their edits? Was is haughty to suggest him to create a regular account (and explaining him why it would be a protection for him)?

And sorry but I don't understand the qualifier "handed" that was given about me above. Remember that English is not my native tongue. I did not find any appropriate definition with a context that could explain it, so I think the word was badly chosen or very informal. There has been other personal comments above that I do not consider being in line with WP policies, from people with whom I had not discussed before (in a time I can remember): how do you think they can make such personal judgements? All comments about my supposed "friendship" with people I don't know or that I have not discussed before are out of topic.

Thanks. verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Please ignore ANI—if an editor with more than a month's experience posts something needing your response I will let you know on your talk. I hang out here and so am familiar with the fact that anyone can edit also means anything can be asserted at ANI. Trying to refute every mistaken claim is pointless—the best response here is silence to let the thread fade away. The IP will never be satisfied, and the simplest is to just revert any further comments they make on your talk—do not put any explanation in your edit summary, just remove comments with summary "remove"; the reason for that is to not give the IP something to argue about (if you put an explanation in your comment, they might think it is reasonable that they should reply). If the IP persists, I will find someone to fix the problem. The IP should take the advice given and pursue the question of the article title at the article talk page or WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 11:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And yet again, you completely ignore the issue at hand and assume the favor is on the side of Verdy_P, Johnuniq. I repeat yet again, the issue is not with the article title, but with how Verdy refuses to accept evidence for why he is incorrect and how he responds so condescendingly. As for me never being satisfied? All Verdy had to do was swallow his pride and simply accept that he did not know all of the facts on the article at hand. One little thing seems to be asking too much from him, according to you; again, probably because both of you are volunteers on this site and you guys must look out for each other, no matter your position.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Note: By interleaving replies in User:Verdy p's post,, as well as top-posting above Johnuniq, 70.51.38.110 has made Verdy's coherent post incomprehensible; you can't tell which bits are whose. This may work in e-mail, but is strongly deprecated on talkpages. In justice to Verdy, I've removed the IP's responses from inside Verdy's and paste them here below, moving up Johnuniq's much earlier response. I'm sorry if it's not clear which bit exactly the IP is responding to, but it was the best I could do. If you can improve on my arrangement, 70.51.38.110, with due consideration for others, then please do. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC).

Enough with claiming that you were being helpful by saying that your information is not incorrect just because you say so, even despite evidence otherwise. I don't remotely perceive how you think that is being helpful.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You were not helping me "for several days" by insisting that your edits were correct. Even in the face of evidence, you decided that you were still correct; which I find funny because you keep repeating that you're not interested in the subject.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition to changing the page title (which I accepted was justified), you changed content in the article itself, which was based on your incorrect opinion. That, I also had a problem with (which I explicitly stated); you instead kept insisting that your information is valid. You even added a false, shallow citation note to the claim you put into the article.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but what has been haughty from you is how authoritatively you insist that I am wrong, even when what you provide as arguments is so thin.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You instructed me several times? There's another lie from Verdy_P. He asked me once, and I signed my edits promptly since that one. 70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but using words like "stupidely" is not informal at all, right? It is not making a judgement on someone who's trying to explain something to you about a subject you admit you don't care about. Does being a "volunteer" automatically make your word and your wikipedia edits superior to all non-volunteers', regardless of their validity?70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I've placed the evidence on the talk page of The Contra Adventure. It's there in plain sight. Also, don't mind my irate wording; since Verdy is not at all at fault for replying with such crass, I figure I would be allowed. Unless, of course, that's one of the special privileges of you volunteers. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:The_Contra_Adventure 70.51.38.110 (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I said I wouldn't post anymore, and although it was wrong of me to charge John with bias due to friendship, he IS being incredibly short-sighted (completely ignored the evidence that I laid, in addition to the IP's own, and instead is just dismissing this with handwaves because he disagrees). DawnDusk (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

What you are missing is that Verdy provided a polite and detailed response including some important technical information. Please stop and examine the following line, then click the link.

] → C: The Contra Adventure (check the URL where this goes)

Verdy could have ignored the IP's question, but instead explained that the issue was discussed a long time ago, and that "C:" cannot now be used. Johnuniq (talk) 04:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And once again, YOU decide to ignore the point of this issue and continue to assume it pertains to the page's title; a subject which, you're right, has been discussed a long time ago and that I had already come to agree with. Here I am repeating the issue at hand for the umpteenth time (probably due to you either deliberately ignoring my replies in favor of a fellow "volunteer" that you admittedly follow in his work, thus making your own look very biased, ignorant and unintelligent; or because this is your level of reading comprehension); the issue pertains to Verdy's arrogance and stubborn, counter-productive attitude towards his page content changes. I wrote that besides the page title, he also changed content in the article and made it seem like what he wrote were facts. The latter is what I had a problem with and instead of accepting his mistake, he continued to insist that I'm the one who's wrong. Me trying to explain this to him constitutes stupidity in his book and a waste of his time. He must really feel above others when he can't even accept his own mistakes.70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, don't tell me that Verdy was being polite when he said things like "You should care about it.", "And I absolutely do not care at all about your preception of "quality" when you don't care about Misplaced Pages usages and don't want to learn.", "and other people on Misplaced Pages have not disputed the fact like you "stupidely" continue to do here". I didn't realize that being demanding, arrogant, condescending and vulgar fit the criteria of being polite; it must be a new policy for volunteers.

Misplaced Pages isn't a resource of information to which ALL readers are strictly obligated to edit or contribute, let alone create accounts for. I'm not (or at least was not) the only one who falls into the category of readers as far as Misplaced Pages goes. As such, we are not really familiar with editing regulations that Verdy values and stresses so much over content accuracy/validity. You may not believe it, but it actually damages Misplaced Pages's credibility when it becomes riddled with inaccurate information, the likes of what Verdy has added into the game's article.

I think it's phenomenal when many of you volunteers spend more time and effort in getting each other's back than understanding the issue at hand. Cringe-worthy to think that Misplaced Pages is maintained by people like this, but not at all surprising with respect to a significant public perception of it.70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Good to see this is going on ignored and many of these volunteers have no valid arguments to dispute my complaints. The fact that there's no progress shows how much freedom some privileged users have on this site. Hey, how's Verdy doing, what with adding inaccurate information to pages and insulting anybody who disagrees with him? Hard at work in shaping up the site, it must be.70.51.38.110 (talk) 03:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks alleged (restored from archive, needs close)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Retitled to "Personal attacks alleged" from non-neutral "Personal attacks by QuackGuru". See wp:talknew. --doncram 13:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

QuackGuru has engaged in personal attacks. In violation of AGF and misrepresenting me and my edits. Contrary to warning diff he continues to post links to a closed WP:AN/I section that was closed no consensus in an effort to discredit me. The attacks are not on point, but personal, not directed to the topic, but me. This has no place on the talk pages of WP articles.

• His latest including a link to the closed WP:AN/I section in the edits comments. diff diff
• Previous linking of the section closed WP:AN/I in edit comments. diff
• He even uses a user page to hold the information so he can easily paste it. diff
• He has placed the link in comments on an admin's user page, and the edit is a pure attack.diff
• He has placed the link in the comments and the attack on a request for page protection that I made. diff

Edit March 10, 2015 (added 5 more diff's below)

• So not to get lost in the long discussion. QuackGuru on this page made another more serious harassing post towards me on my disability here. This is an ongoing pattern.
• Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
• Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
• Another link to the section in comments to discredit me diff
• Links to the old AN/I section and misrepresents the nature of it to discredit me. diff (note: 4 difs added by AlbinoFerret in this dif and this dif today Jytdog (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2015 (UTC))

This has to stop, There are serious violations of WP:EQ including misrepresenting, AGF, and making the discussion on the other editor and not the topic and WP:HARASS for the persistently trying to discredit me over old and resolved WP:AN/I sections. Asking him to stop has done no good. Smearing another editor should not be done. AlbinoFerret 03:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So the first dif is "User:AlbinoFerret claims "You have not discussed one edit in the 19k characters you inserted." But I did discuss sources User:AlbinoFerret deleted. The response was "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." That is not a specific objection for excluding relevant information. User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve this page IMO. how is deleting numerous reliable sources improving this page? QuackGuru (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)"

I am not seeing anything ANI worthy there. Sorry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, thanks for pointing out I had the wrong diff. I have struck out the wrong one and placed the correct one. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• This comment "WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless" by User:AlbinoFerret makes me wonder if a topic ban WP:Boomerang would be useful though. See how consensus is that WHO is one of the best medical sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Bringing concerns to a noticeboard is what they are for ? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That discussion already happened in the WP:AN/I QuackGuru keeps linking to and is now 5 months old. It is a content disagreement, and this focus of this section isnt on content, but the persistent personal attacks by QuackGuru. The noticeboard is only one place out of many, and it was the noticeboard for page protection, not a place to level personal attacks or discuss editors. AlbinoFerret 03:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Can someone please point out the personal attack? I do not immediately see the insult being directed. I think we are nearing 150 days of daily edit warring at this article so I recognize the tension. Blue Rasberry (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree BR, I don't see WP:NPA here. I do see unhelpful behaviour, not unidirectionally, including WP:IDHT, WP:Battleground and WP:NOTHERE. I fully understand AF's furstration at QG's massive undiscussed edits on a controversial topic, usually I find with reasonable content in them but lots of dross that doesn't add to the article as well. I also understand QG's frustration with AF undoing what is a large amount of work. But QG is persistently trying to discredit AF over old and resolved ANI threads. I don't know what can be done to reduce the tension at the e-cigarette family of Articles but I think some form of sanctions need to be handed out to those making it harder for productive collaboration to happen. SPACKlick (talk) 08:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think sanctions might be the way to go here since there are multiple problem editors. Many editors left and unwatched the article as it became toxic. Considering how often e-cigs have come up at WP:RSN where decent medical sources always seemed to be challenged by the same group of editors, I'm concerned there may be significant POVs running the discussion. The more problematic POV seems to be being critical specifically of sources that are critical of e-cigs. There are behavior issues tied to how editors are dealing with content, so it doesn't seem like it's easily addressed here at ANI where people will say it's just a content dispute and ignore the behavior problems within it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry While it is not classically defined WP:NPA it is WP:HARASS and the two are very close. AlbinoFerret 14:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• QuackGuru, it would be better to please keep this diff collection on your own computer, not Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Otherwise, I don't see harassment here, and certainly not personal attacks. I agree with Doc James there's nothing for admins to do. Bishonen | talk 16:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

Bishonen So, its ok to smear another editor by bringing up old AN/I sections, even those that were closed with no consensus of wrongdoing. Even on article talk pages and others in an attempt to discredit and smear another editor? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Bringing up what you have stated before is not a smear. Possibly a topic ban of User:AlbinoFerret would improve things. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I do think you may be right, that at least a temporary (perhaps 3 month) TBAN from electronic cigarette articles would be good for AlbinoFerret's equilibrium. This is an issue where advocates are running well ahead of the evidence, and this is necessarily a source of friction and controversy. The Misplaced Pages articles are a classic case of WP:TRUTH. Guy (Help!) 20:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with considering a temp TBAN. I had a discussion with AF on my talk page awhile back about them being too locked-in to the topic and not being able to step back. Looking at the current situation I do think it would be helpful to both AF and the topic if they had a break. The previous ANI on AF specifically said there was no consensus at the time on an action, but that is very different from saying there wasn't a behavior problem. I think AF definitely has the potential to approach things more evenly (this conversation did give me some hope), but they really need to step out of their single topic and get experience in less contentious topics since their posting history looks like a WP:SPA right now.Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not a WP:SPA, I edit other pages and have other interests. AlbinoFerret 21:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James, The whole other section was a smear campaign, started by you. All based on content disputes. Had it resulted in a finding against me, perhaps it could be used here. But it didnt, and talk pages of articles are not the place to try and bring up dirt on another editor. AlbinoFerret 21:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Some of what Albino says is valid, in that this is the proper forum for bringing the list of diffs - not article Talk pages or admin Talk pages. Deploying the list in that way is harassment-y and I think QG should be warned to address behavior issues in appropriate venues going forward. However I don't agree with anything else Albino has written. (particularly his claim that it was not valid to link to the ANI section concerning a topic ban against him; we all know that many ANIs lose focus and become sprawling, uncloseable messes, as that one did. There was plenty of solid feedback on Albino's behavior in that ANI, however, and linking to it is OK.) Jytdog (talk) 21:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• it appears that QuackGuru has not taken down the page tracking Albino's behavior yet, despite being advised to do so by an admin, which is not good. QG, it is fine to build such a list but you have to deploy it and then get rid of it. You may have not been ready to use it but your hand is forced now. So - either just delete it, or post it here with a request for admin or community action against Albino, and then delete it. But either way, it should go. Jytdog (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Bishonen, I put a hat on it for now. Is this good enough for now or do you still prefer I blank the page. I'm not done with it. This will go to arbcom if admins don't do anything soon. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru see WP:POLEMIC - it is OK to compile a list of behaviors in your userspace but you must use it timely. That is why i said that your hand has been forced, and you have to use it and lose it, or just lose it. It seems like you have enough there to request the community to topic-ban, and this is the place to do that. The last one could have potentially succeeded but it was lost in that totally sprawling ANI. But i will get out of the way and let bish answer. Jytdog (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru, for you to blank it yourself would be an acceptable compromise, from where I stand, between the hat and putting a speedy tag on it. Blanking isn't a problem, is it? The material would still be at your fingertips via the history. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

A short time ago I did blank the page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Block for QuackGuru

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

QuackGuru has a long history of blocks and banns log including a past block for personal attacks and harassment. He appears to be a WP:SPA that focuses on controversial medical articles. Past short banns and blocks have done no good. I proposed a indefinite block or alternately a one year block. He has engaged in harassment WP:HARASS again. His actions to remove some of the harassment dont go far enough, the edit summaries are still there as well as the attacks on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 13:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret proposed the same thing before and that went nowhere fast. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#Block_or_Ban. A return WP:BOOMERANG will resolve the issue at hand. QuackGuru (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I endorse an immediate block for QuackGuru for this edit. I note that QuackGuru regards me as WP:INVOLVED per this section of his talk page. It lists a collection of dubious statements and untrue allegations against me, and has done since December 2014 in violation of WP:POLEMIC. If QG has issues with me I request that they address them in the proper way. While I do not accept that I am INVOLVED here, I do request that another admin make the block. --John (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru has no right to comment on AlbinoFerret's private life whatsoever, let alone assume he's lying about things QuackGuru can't know anything about. I've warned him. Bishonen | talk 19:41, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

How many warnings will QG get for harassment? AlbinoFerret 13:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the same amount of WP:ROPE you've been given to continue your obvious advocacy. BMK (talk) 15:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Obvious advocacy? You are incorrect. That is a baseless false charge. AlbinoFerret 15:48, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Really, a "baseless false charge"? If that is so, it is one that is accepted as true by a goodly number of very experienced editors who voted in support of a topic ban for you. Your advocacy isn't in the least covert, it is, as several have commented, easily recognizable. BMK (talk) 21:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't have time to count the total number of past warnings against QuackGuru, so I'll simply list the notices given recently:

• 16 December 2014: A notice by admin Adjwilley was given for ignoring administrative advice and attacking an administrator
• 3 January 2015: A notice by admin Rjanag was given for plagiarism
• 3 February 2015: A warning by admin Shii was issued for edit warring
• 5 February 2015: A warning by admin Kww was issued to QuackGuru for attacking User:Middle 8 in bad faith

I suppose one could give QuackGuru another warning and remind him not to ignore administrative advice or attack editors, as has been done many times in the past, but I don't think such an approach would be helpful to the community (or the administrators). This editor was blocked many years ago for canvassing via email and making misleading accusations, and it appears that with every successive administrative warning, his disruptive behavior continues to worsen and escalate. -A1candidate 16:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition I think that https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:QuackGuru may give light into QuackGuru's activities on electronic cigarette in the recent past. It has not gotten any better. Arguing round in circles trying to get a press release used for medical content, making 20000 character edits in private with no notice or discussion on the talk page. AlbinoFerret 16:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that QuackGuru's ownership of articles is highly detrimental to the consensus building process and I note that he had been previously warned (and blocked) for making edits without first seeking consensus but am not surprised that he continues to ignore all administrative warnings. -A1candidate 16:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

You folks have a nice little circle going on here, a walled garden of mutually supportive comments, mostly between SPAs with the same objective in mind. Only problem is, every comment just makes the groups' general lack of objectivity even more obvious. BMK (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not an SPA, and I suggest you strike out that comment. -A1candidate 13:24, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Since I'm just back from a sepsis-enforced break I don't want to step in and make what would be a controversial block, especially in a situation where an uninvolved admin decided to just warn you for it, but Quack, that was unnecessary and under different circumstances (and if I'd beaten Bish here,) I probably would've blocked you. If you do something similar in the future, I probably will. You do a lot of important content work, but there's really no reason to make such a comment. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support immediate block - This recent comment by QuackGuru was clearly targeted against an editor's personal life. The edit summary was highly inappropriate, inexplicably cruel and plain disgusting. Given that the comment was made on the administrators' noticeboard where editors should be particularly mindful of their own behavior, and that QuackGuru had been previously warned and blocked for long-standing patterns of personal harrassment and disruptive editing (see block log and recent warnings), I think a much longer block might be necessary. We are not dealing with a new or inexperienced editor, but a disruptive, long-term editor (account created in 2006) who knows enough about Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies but continues to ignore them ad infinitum. A1candidate 13:49, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support per A1candidate. That comment from QG was beyond the pale. Considering his long list of blocks for the same type of behavior, I would hope such a block would be longer than a day or two. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A1 and WV please pay attention - above an admin has already said they took action for that comment. That incident is done. A1 I understand you both would love to get rid of QG b/c he fights quackery but. In any case this attempt to pile on and override an admin is as unseemly as QG's remark. Jytdog (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC) (amended per Winkelvi's objection below. my apologies. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC))
    • There's nothing wrong with QG fighting quackery, except that he does it while violating a series of well-established behaviorial guidelines. His attempt to enforce a topic ban on me does not give me much hope that he will ever change his behavior. -A1candidate 22:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Jytdog, HOW CAN YOU EQUATE A SLUR with a call to sanction a slur?! It's entirely appropriate to debate whether a stronger sanction is warranted given the repugnance of what QuackGuru said; it is nauseatingly out of bounds. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 12:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Middle 8 I'll answer although the question seems more rhetorical than actually looking for an answer. I agree the comment was out of bounds - I was the one who hatted it. I also agree it was foul. I disagree with calling what he did a "slur" as he didn't insult AF based on his disability - instead he called AF a liar. It was a low blow, stupid, personal attack based on nothing; very bad judgement on multiple levels, especially in this context. I do see whipping up hysteria over a stupid comment, and trying to use that to gain momentum for a block, in the midst of a very badly framed case, as cynical and manipulative. So yeah, as unseemly as QG's remark, on a different vector. You may recall that I voted in favor of your RfC/U, even though it too was malformed. I think QG is very vulnerable to topic or even site banning based on a very clear record of bad behavior. he functions as kind of a "beserker" on fringe topics where you have alt med or other kinds of POV-pushers opposing sound MEDRS usage, and he goes right up to the line all the time, and over it, not infrequently. Just like he does at the e-cigs articles. I don't like to edit where he is working and leave ... but when he shows up things are pretty far gone already. Anyway, if you look at how this thread started, the case against QG is even more badly formed than your RfC/U, and that one failed too. (I said so way above, before you joined the discussion here) This one does not cut it. I am baffled as to why someone hasn't framed a clear case against him already. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Jytdog, yes, rhetorical. You see it as bad and I see it as terrible. Calling someone a liar about their disability is for sure a slur ("an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation"), and it was gratuitous, dickish and cruel (see my comment below to Ched). We'll have to agree to disagree on the import/properness of A1C highlighting it here; my view is that it's not just about this case: given the well-known context of QG's long and checkered history, it's unacceptable, mean-spirited. In any context on WP it's an 8/10 on the NPA scale (where 9 is the N-word and 10 is falsely calling someone a pedophile). A line was crossed. One just doesn't do that to people.... especially in a situation where collegiality is expected. I agree with your other comments, and if/when a stronger case is brought, I am pretty sure that said diff will feature. I may bring it to Jimbo's attention anyway. One does not screw with someone over their disability, including accusing them of lying about it ("disability policing" is corrosive); disability is hard enough as it is. Revolting. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 20:42, 8 March 2015 (UTC) edited20:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
    • "I understand you both would love to get rid of QG b/c he fights quackery" Jytdog, what the "eff" are you talking about? I haven't encountered QC before seeing this AN/I (that I'm aware of) so I have no idea what kind of "quackery" he fights (I'm not even sure what that means). Your accusation is out of line, but certainly not as out of line as QC's comments about AF. He has a long block log that testifies to his history of bullying and harassment. Your comments imply he's performing a necessary service to Misplaced Pages that we should all be grateful for. The truth is, Misplaced Pages is a WP:CHOICE and would do just fine without any of us. AGF and NPA, however, is not a choice -- it is required. In my opinion, your attempts to dismiss what he said by trying to assign ulterior motives to those who are supporting a block based on those comments are disgusting to me personally. I hope we never have to connect in WP again. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Winkelvi my apologies for lumping you with A1. That was sloppy of me and I apologize. I struck above accordingly. Again, my apologies. We actually have crossed paths briefly. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Fine, I accept the apology, Jytdog. For the record, the crossing of paths comment was in reference to QG. I appreciate you striking the comments that included me, however, I still am not okay with your defense of QG and the reasons for said defense. It seems there is a suggestion that QC's contributions should outweigh the fact he questioned and mocked someone's disability status. Not acceptable, in my view. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
        • Thanks that is gracious of you. i think you are still misunderstanding my perspective - pls see my comment to middle8 above. Jytdog (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC) (oy, forgot a crucial "mis". additional note. i do agree that the remark was disgusting. really i do. Jytdog (talk) 03:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC))
• Support - I completely agree with weeding out quackery, but there are enough people willing to do it without QuackGuru's uncooperative, bullying style of editing. It looks like he's had plenty warnings and chances to improve his behaviour, but he clearly has no intention of doing so.--37.201.58.102 (talk) 02:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support block per John Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future -- making clear my priorities. !vote changed, preceding comment added, QG-specific parts of below comment struck 05:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Set aside the other complaints; John is right that accusing someone of lying about their disability deserves an immediate block. It's a gratuitous slur, and worse than a lot of people probably realize: "disability policing" is real and corrosive. This cuts deep in ways that perhaps only people affected by disability can fully grasp. While QuackGuru may not have been aware of "disability policing", he damn well should have known his accusation was afoul of NPA, especially with a long block log and eight years of editing. Still, o Our standards should reflect growing disability awareness. Some may dismiss my comments as cynical since I've clashed with QuackGuru, but I find this triggering and it transcends WP politics. I apologize to Bishonen (who declined John's suggestion to block) and others for suggesting below that merely warning QG shows softness and callousness, and am hatting my (largely) hot and ABF comments just below. Still, John is right and we shouldn't tolerate such attacks. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 23:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree. QG partakes in low-level and/or borderline transgressions on a regular basis, then occasionally, often when he thinks he can get away with it he ups the ante and completely oversteps the mark. The fact that QG went and made that comment kind of vindicates AF's original claims that QG was personally attacking him. QG thought things were going his way and that a WP:BOOMERANG was heading towards AF so he chanced his luck with more blatant attacks. Looks like he'll probably get away with it as well. I'm not going to recommend anything is done with QG, I'll leave that up to less involved editors but I do know from experience that QG is an impossible editor to work with and that he is not interested in consensus, never has been, probably never will be. People say he fights quackery, but there are plenty of editors that fight quackery that do not have long block logs for personal attacks, harassment, disruptive editing, edit warring, etc. Unfortunately many of these editors, whom I have a reasonable degree of respect for, seem to support QG.Levelledout (talk) 14:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

FWIW comment. QG has been around for a long time. I think there's a huge "WP:IDHT" issue with them, but I don't think it's deliberate. Anything related to "disabilities" is a very sensitive topic, and with good reason. Yes, QG is very tendentious by nature, and it can be very exasperating. Personally I had a few very long conversations with QG long ago, and I came to one conclusion: I don't think there's an ounce of intent to hurt anyone in his efforts here. Yes, .. he tends to go through things here with blinders on - but I don't think there's any intent to do harm in him. If you told QG "you hurt my feelings", he would spend hours digging up diffs and links to prove that he didn't. QG is doing his best to help the project, but I doubt is has ever crossed his mind to NPA/attack anyone. Just IMO. — Ched :  ?  16:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I too, tried to have a conversation with QG long ago. That apparently did not work out, and he eventually acknowledged the futility of such an approach by stating in the edit summary that he was "not interested" to listen. His most recent attempt to enforce a topic ban on me right after I opposed his attempt to ban AF is disingenuous, to say the least. -A1candidate 16:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I do understand your frustrations, and I wish I had an answer for you - but I can't think of one. There's a huge resistance to anything "fringe" related on wikipedia. The project secures itself in fact. Until you can actually prove that the earth is round - it will remain flat. That's just the nature of the beast. The best I can offer is this: don't tilt at windmills, recognize brick walls when you see them - and don't beat your head on them, and take comfort in your own beliefs - even if other's don't share them. — Ched :  ?  17:07, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Appreciate your comments there Ched, I probably shouldn't have brought intent into it since its the conduct issues that ultimately matter.Levelledout (talk) 17:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

@ Ched - I too had the impression that QG was fundamentally benign for some time until I saw his mean side. For example, WP:DICK, mocking other editors: Mallexikon: "I think you clarified this very nicely.'; Quackguru: "I think I clarified this very nicely.". He's also held a grudge toward me that started after I co-signed an RfC on him (which was concurrently brought with a thread at AN). Since then it's been POKE and BATTLEGROUND (below) despite multiple olive branches attempts (which he just deletes from his user talk).

• Wikistalking: 10 petty examples
• GAME-y/KETTLE accusations: characterizing edits I made as bad when he did the same thing
• Repeated, baiting, disingenuous "questions" about COI despite an explanation right in my signature line (Middle 8 (contribs • COI)) and multiple good-faith answers: (asked | answered twice); (asked); (asked | answered).

The above is not innocent. But it doesn't matter; NPA and CIVIL are to be applied only selectively, apparently.

So, no, I don't accept that QG's slur against AlbinoFerret was anything other than an attempt to mock and discredit them. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 18:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC) (struck sentence 02:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes suppression of legitimate discussion regarding QG's conduct on their talk page to avoid detection is yet another issue, I have an example of that: "archive - drama over". Edit: Another, better example, of plain deletion this time: diffLevelledout (talk) 18:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose here (for now) and take to ArbCom instead. Given that QG's behavior is so heavily tied to other editors and their actions in the topic, his behavior would seem better evaluated at ArbCom instead along with the suite of e-cig issues. The case below this seems to be much more standalone, but QG's actions are so intertwined with other editor's actions and mired in controversial topics it would seem a more methodical look by ArbCom would be more appropriate than a knee-jerk reaction here. People end up dealing with a lot of crap when dealing with fringe or advocacy type editors, so some of that does need to be disentangled in the topic. That being said, I do think QG can go too far sometimes. We don't afford people with disabilities any special privileges over anyone else here, and talking about AF's situation is going to be tough no matter what. WP:NOTTHERAPY has been brought up in that regard, but that's really as far as any conversation about disability should have gone. Since action has already been taken with regard to QG's comment on whether AF is disabled or not, are more systemic look at behavior at the article and with users is needed to really discuss the appropriateness of a block. I don't see that here at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

He has been previously banned by Arbcom for similar behavioral issues and POV-pushing patterns. The Committee concluded that there was no apparent progress in QG's approach to editing. That was back in 2011. We are now in 2015, but has anything improved after four years of leniency and good faith assumptions? -A1candidate 18:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chastising QG for a lack of progress in an area where essentially no progress has been made is a little one-sided, though. If everyone that attempted to warp our articles in favor of pseudoscience was simultaneously and indefinitely banned, wouldn't that do far more good?—Kww(talk) 20:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

That would do far more good if you take into account QG's repeated attempts to claim that mummified tattoo marks "conform to acupuncture points". How is that not a blatant act of pseudoscience advocacy against prior consensus? -A1candidate 22:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Levelledout .. understood. I think perhaps given the scope of all of this, that it is beyond what Ani is tasked to do Perhaps the WP:RFAR route is the best option. — Ched :  ?  19:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose ArbCom action should be undertaken. There has been much contentious editing from all sides. Blocking isn't going to resolve the issues. Jim1138 (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Comment: The question of why this has not been elevated long before this... Jim1138 (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I said it above and I will say it again here. I think a good, PAG-based (not emotion/rhetoric-based) case could be pretty easily made, with about a couple hours of work finding difs. This case, is not that case, and thinking about a closer looking at !votes above, it does not appear that there is PAG-based consensus for a block here. In my view, the notion of punting his case to arbcom is just that - punting. The same work would have to go into it then, to make the case, so why not just do it here? (Arbcom cases don't happen by magic - diffs have to be brought, etc) So withdraw the mess above, and start a new, clean, well-formed thread, if it really matters to any of the supporters. (AlbinoFerret is the one who brought this: I believe he is the only who can withdraw it) Jytdog (talk) 03:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

So you agree that there is reason to block him but it needs to have a pretty bow on it. AlbinoFerret 12:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret your reply is of a piece with your general lack of alignment with, and understanding of, how WP works. The community doesn't take action based on emotion, and we don't edit or resolve content disputes, based on what somebody likes or doesn't like. This isn't facebook. We have policies and guidelines that express the community's consensus on things, and we strive to edit based on them, behave based on them, and resolve disputes through reasoned discussion based on them. Reasoned and discerning WP:CONSENSUS is the very heart of this place. Hand-wavy "he's a dick" complaints don't go anywhere, and don't deserve to go anywhere - they don't provide a basis for rational discussion of the issues.Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Agree with Doc James and Jytdog. And I'm not asserting Quackguru has done nothing wrong! But yes, this is whipping up hysteria over a stupid comment. Cloudjpk (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

A stupid comment? It was an attack. A low blow, and it follows attempts to discredit and harass me elsewhere. I should be surprised that anyone could come up with a defence of his actions, especially the one here on this page. You and the two editors you mention want a slap on a wrist, but only for an editor who edits with you, and who's edits you agree with. Had this been a first time, perhaps but we are way past first time as shown by QuackGuru's extensive history of harassment, edit warring, and other violations. AlbinoFerret 12:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Has been warned And has acknowledged. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:50, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I can get as annoyed as the next person with QG, but this does not merit a block (at least not one more than 24 hours); a warning (if anything) would suffice. Softlavender (talk) 12:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Any derogatory comments about a person's health, or accusations that a person is lying about their health, is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. As such, a block of some sort is clearly warranted - though I would find a lengthy one to be draconian, a moderate one is likely in order here. Collect (talk) 12:50, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I am heavily involved in the topic at hand having spent a long time editing the e-cigarette article pretty heavily and having clashed with QG and AF. I think in the case of both editors the battleground that e-cig has become has brought out a negative side to their WP editing, in AF it's leaning towards ADVOCACY and leaning towards SPA as it becomes more and more a focus of attention, in QG this is found in WP:OWN and IDHT. The regularity with which QG makes edits without discussion on the Talk pages of e-cig articles, even though he knows that any edit on that page is likely to be contentious, makes it clear he's not looking for consensus but the article as he sees it. I also see competence issues in many of QG's edits which could do with a bit of copy editing for structure and repetition before they go live. A topic ban, in the short term, may make things better. I certainly think the page cannot improve with QG there. But the root problem is that e-cig, and the daughter articles, are battlegrounds where a lot of people are shouting, and nobody's listening. I don't know whether ArbCom can do something to help in this matter but while banning QG from the page will reduce the amount of problems there it won't solve the root. SPACKlick (talk) 12:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block or send to ArbCom. QuackGuru continues to make personal attacks, despite being warned as recently as a few days ago. In this edit of a couple of days ago QG attacks the conduct of several editors including myself and demands that answers be provided to them. WP:PERSONAL is quite clear that this is not allowed and that article talk pages are not the place for conduct accusations and smears. However, the worst thing about QG's conduct is the that they are not interested in consensus. Building 20k edits (about 1/3 of the article size) in relative privacy and then dumping them into articles without notification let alone discussion is consistent with this. Attempting to discuss matters with QG on their user talk page generally results in them suppressing the discussion by archiving or deleting it (or parts of it that they don't like), e.g. . QG of course has a very long block log and has also had been sanctioned by ArbCom in the past so has been given numerous chances to improve their conduct and shows little signs of doing so. I considered whether to make this post at all given that I am a highly involved editor. However this doesn't seem to be an issue for other editors, some of which have supported QG. As I have indicated I would have no issues with ArbCom taking a look at the wider picture.Levelledout (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • really baffling to me. The first dif you provide is just a Talk discussion (QG arguing against the bizarre claim that MEDRS says only reviews can be used and excludes statements by major health organizations); the 2nd is fine (per TPG it is OK to delete others' comments from your own Talk page) as is the 4th (people can archive their talk pages as they wish). The Arbcom diff is old history (that should be brought up in any carefully brought case and has already been mentioned above). I really don't understand why folks are not framing a clear case showing violations of behavioral policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 14:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))

The case against QG is rather clear cut in my opinion Jytdog and I respectfully disagree with you. Yes the first diff is an article talk discussion, that's my point. Content is irrelevant here as is whether QG is right or wrong about any content claims he makes. QG makes conduct allegations on the article talk page such as accusing editors of disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point. Some of the language they use is just plain rude and actually borders on a breach of WP:CIVIL. Whether or not QG is technically allowed to delete individual comments from their talk page is hardly the point. Remember that they do not own their user talk page and that part of its purpose is for legitimate discussion of their conduct. I have only ever had two discussions (as far as I can recall) with QG on their talk page and on both of those occasions they have either deleted or archived the discussion or parts of it in order to prevent it from continuing. I was fully aware that the ArbCom diff had been mentioned, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant to the point I was making.Levelledout (talk) 15:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Summary: QuackGuru made an extremely stupid remark that he should never have made, he was roundly chastised for it repeatedly by parties from all sides, and an admin warned him not to do it again on pain of being blocked. The End.

  The rest of this is just advocacy-driven hysteria, obvious e-cig advocates and fringe science advocates trying to take out one of their opposite numbers in a content dispute, in retaliation for the suggestion of a topic ban for one of them. (That suggestion of a topic ban, incidentally, came before QG's remark or this sub0section, which AlbinoFerret shoved in here above the topic-ban section, out of chronological order, so that people reading the thread would get to it first -- an extremely good example of the kind of WP:BATTLEFIELD tactics being carried on by the e-cig advocates.

• Just to clarify, not everyone who !voted "support" is a e-cig advocate or a fringe science advocate, obviously, but the campaign to ban QG and the hysteria surrounding his remark is indeed the work of those advocates. No collusion is implied concerning the actions of those advocates - I'm certain there's no need for them to discuss between themselves taking out one of their primary antagonists. AlbinoFerret started the ball rolling, and his colleagues joined in. BMK (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The original complaint was made by Albino Ferret against QuackGuru alleging personal attacks. Therefore that's what was being discussed at the top of the thread and would seem the natural place to put the Proposed Block for QuackGuru. To claim that the thread not being in exact chronological order is going to affect the way that people vote is well, ridiculous. People might see one or the other first but it doesn't matter. Also, you argued particularly passionately that the proposal for AF was not driven mainly by involved editors and yet apparently QG's block proposal is an "advocacy-driven hysteria" "campaign". Strange.Levelledout (talk) 21:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Each of your responses in this section and the one below adds to the clear conclusion that you are not the neutral party you claim to be. BMK (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

OK well that is a baseless accusation that uses weasel words (I'm not the neutral party I claim to be because... just because). It's one way of neglecting to respond to reasoned argument of course, but not one that I appreciate or that I will be engaging with.Levelledout (talk) 23:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Any open-minded uninvolved editor will see precisely what I mean, despite your Wikilawyering. BMK (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

You need to provide evidence for serious accusations, not unsubstantiated insults. You should probably also read WP:BATTLE and WP:POINT.Levelledout (talk) 15:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

"Disability policing" is real, and damaging, and an issue on Misplaced Pages: see the unsolicited comment on my talk page from an editor concerned about that exact thing. For obvious reasons, I wish someone other than me had posted about it (or that someone other than QuackGuru had made the offensive comment). I'm done commenting in this thread on the merits of a block but "disability policing" needs to be taken seriously on WP. ... P.S. Just to make my intentions clear I've changed my !vote above to "Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future". --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 04:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC) added P.S. 05:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Editors are blocked when bad behaviour needs to be prevented; editors are not blocked as punishment when there is very little chance of a problem being repeated. QG has acknowledged the error, albeit not very clearly, and there is no reason to debate the issue—if there is a repeat, QG will get a lengthy block; if there isn't, a block for a single bad comment is not warranted. The comment is not part of a series of similar issues. Johnuniq (talk) 05:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Johnuniq -- I read WP:BLOCK specifically before commenting. In a case like this, per WP:BLOCKDETERRENT, #3 would apply: some offenses are so bad that we block automatically. (#2 could also apply when an editor has a tendency to push the envelope: they may not make this mistake again, but a block may get their attention. But #3 is the main thing.) --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 08:46, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Is that your considered opinion as an independent editor with a good understanding of Misplaced Pages's procedures, or as an acupuncturist who is very keen to have QG removed so you can promote your product unimpeded? Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Very much the former, which I think should be obvious in light of my !vote change to: "Don't block QuackGuru this time but do insta-block anyone who questions anyone's disability in the future". . Look just a little bit above and you might even see that I mentioned this previously. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 11:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Middle 8, I'm not sure if you've seen the conversation starting after this comment by AlbinoFerret , but it does appear that AlbinoFerret is trying to justify their focus on e-cigs because of their disability (or extremely misunderstanding BMK's point). I'd prefer the topic of disability never even entered the conversation and focus solely on behavior here, but this kind of justification really concerns me. This is very different from questioning whether someone actually has a disability, so are you suggesting we shouldn’t question this kind of behavior I’m describing, or moreso not do what QuackGuru did specifically? This becoming a really strange situation. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Not all that strange, really. The case against AlbinoFerrett as a SPA and civil-POV-pushing advocate is quite strong, and he's feeling the need to counter it with whatever he's got. So, even though he called for sanctions against QG for bringing up his physical disability, he obviously feels no compunction about using that physical disability as an explanation for the amount of editing he's done on e-cigarettes. What he seems not to understand is that by comparing oranges to oranges -- i.e. by dealing with percentages of his own edits as opposed to comparing the count of his edits against those of other editors -- that factor is eliminated, and has no bearing on the question. Whatever his physical disabilities are is irrelevant, because they exist when he edits an e-cig article and still exist when he edits an article on any other subject. So when I report that 67.07% of his article edits and 85.08% of his article talk page edits are on the subject of electronic cigarettes, there's no way in which any disability enters into those stats. BMK (talk) 16:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No, I just dont like numbers and innuendo being used to discredit me. AlbinoFerret 17:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Kingofaces43 - QuackGuru's insult/innuendo that AlbinoFerret was lying about being disabled was completely gratuitous. All AF had said was, essentially, that their post count in the e-cig area is high partly because they're disabled and thus at home and in front of the computer a lot. There was no reason to dispute this and it was dickish and invasive to do so.

Note: I think AF's volume of posting by itself doesn't require apology, so their disability is actually irrelevant in terms of examining their edits. What matters are the kind of edits and where they are made. Re the kind of edits, I've expressed concerns over AF's persistently not grokking MEDRS. Re where edits are made, BMK is correct that what is germaine to SPA and WP:ADVOCACY is not how many total posts AF has made about e-cigs, but rather what percentage such posts comprise of his total mainspace edits. ... That said, even if AF's disability is ultimately irrelevant to this inquiry, the baseless accusation that they lied is still wrong. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Meta-comment, seed for possible essay: Disability among editors on Misplaced Pages needs to be addressed with common sense and respect; it should neither be used for twinkie defenses nor as a way to discredit people in any way -- including suggesting that a person is lying about it. As lie-accusations go, this is an especially bad one. When a person is simply asking for a reasonable accommodation, and not attempting to justify gross incompetence -- or is simply mentioning their disability by way of explanation of their editing style (as AF was, in above case) -- the burden they are imposing is low. Therefore it would be stupid to demand proof, and more stupid (and dickish as well) to accuse that person of lying about their disability, with no basis and with such low stakes; cf. "disability policing" (which may be one of those things, like getting called an epithet, that sounds bad but which you have to experience to know what it's really like). I hope that our norm becomes one of rejecting "disability policing" in any form. Demands of proof are bad and outright lie-accusations worse. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, I pretty much agree with you entirely. No reason to ask of actual proof, but in cases like these I'd prefer not to even worry about disability and just chalk up relatively innocuous editing quirks as just that, and if something truly disruptive, it's disruptive. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose QuackGuru questioned a personal comment made by AlbinoFerret which he should not have done. But, in my judgement, this comment does not rise to the level of a block/ban. For the record, QG did not reveal or attempt to out AF in any way. Counsel him to use caution and move on. JodyB _talk 12:41, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose block, but QG should face some admonishment for the disability-questioning comment. This is probably something that should be referred to ArbCom. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as it looks like QuackGuru was fairly neutral in what he added, and all of it was well cited. I agree that that was a very offensive comment he made, but he already received an admin warning for it, so I would consider it closed. If, however, QG does continue with personal attacks, especially of that nature, I would support a block or a referral to ArbCom. Iwilsonp (talk) 23:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret

I have left the primary thread open for now because I'd like to let the discussion about Discretionary Sanctions run for another day before closing to make sure the community really wants that. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:AlbinoFerret is making a lot of comments and edits to e-cig related pages. See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/AlbinoFerret&offset=&limit=500&target=AlbinoFerret See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:AlbinoFerret for previous behaviour issues. AlbinoFerret tried to hide Environmental impact section from a reliable source from the page. He eventually tried to delete some of the text. AlbinoFerret deleted a number of reliable sources. AlbinoFerret claims "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." But AlbinoFerret has not given a specific reason to exclude relevant information about safety. WP:COMPETENCE is not the issue IMO. AlbinoFerret has turned the e-cig pages into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. AlbinoFerret is not the only problematic editor at these pages. Some of the e-cig enthusiasts are not here to improve the e-cig pages. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive867#E-cig_editors for background information on this. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening over and over again. QuackGuru (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those were edits in a content dispute. Some of them over 2 months old. This is not about content, but your actions on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is also about you deleting relevant content you find offensive. AlbinoFerret has a repeated pattern of trying to delete pertinent information about safety. AlbinoFerret is unable to formulate a logical reason for excluding the text. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a misstatement. There are valid reasons why the content was removed all covered under talk page sections.Here is a huge one. But this isnt a content dispute, this is a discussion of harassment that happened because you decided to smear me on talk pages. As for WP:BATTLEGROUND, I think you have done enough with building over 19000 character in edits in secret for a month, not discussing any of it on the talk pages, and then adding it, and reverting it back in. On such a contentious article, that should never have happened WP:CAUTIOUS In fact looking at the pages history, you are still planning more because of recient additions, but none of them have been brought to the talk page. AlbinoFerret 22:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino you are digging your hole deeper by making spurious complaints. per the userpage guideline WP:UPYES it is totally fine to draft article content in userspace. Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Its not spurious, but the basis of WP, Consensus. But there is no consensus in building 19000 character edits in private, and making one 16k edit at once. There was no discussion on the addition, no post on the talk pages directing the other editors to it to look over. This has been done before on the main e-cig page. Granted there is nothing wrong with building edits on a sandbox, but a edit that is 1/3rd the size of the page should have been discussed. WP:CAUTIOUS AlbinoFerret 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think an indef topic ban is most appropriate rather than a short-term topic ban. It is clear that User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve the e-cig pages. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Really, and what evidence exactly do you present in support of that? Other than the fact that you have disagreements with AF over content which is neither here nor there, I can't see that you've stated any whatsoever.Levelledout (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• support indef topic ban AlbinoFerret is not here and is WP:TENDENTIOUS. And this has been going on for a long time. And I see no reason to believe it will improve. Many chances have been given and few have been taken. It's time for this to stop. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support I would support a one year topic ban. Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Doc James. BMK (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support one year topic ban for Albinoferret. There are many issues here and AF is disrupting any genuine attempts to improve the articles, so much that it is bordering on WP:SPA. AF has previously done good work on other articles and I believe AF's and everyone else's time could be spent much better. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 00:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is nothing more than a content dispute. With diff's gathered over months showing a content dispute. All of which have talk page sections dealing with the content link1 link2 link3. The only thing this will accomplish is silence a active editor from the article that disagrees with some content, that press releases diff should not be used for medical content or problems with the sources. In fact one post above me, Doc James, lists a reason for banning me is that "Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial.". AlbinoFerret 00:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino "the evidence" that Doc James is referring to, is medical evidence about risks of e-cigs. I know that a huge focus of yours, has been reducing the amount of what you call "speculation" in the article... but what is, in fact, statements about the unfolding medical consensus on risks. What he meant is that when the science is more solid and the scientific debate settles, there will be less controversy, and that in a year you should have even weaker grounds on which to be disruptive. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is speculation. From the Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes" source, the topic of the section you linked to "No studies specifically evaluated the environmental impacts of e-cigarette manufacturing; issues related to use of resources, assembly, nicotine source, tobacco cultivation and global production". Unfolding evidence? More like a lot of opinions to me, not based on anything, and the lone "review" of its kind. Because apparently it didnt review any studies as it says none exist. Its given its own section? Huge WP:WEIGHT issue here. Being the only source of its kind, what it reviewed is, basically nothing. This is a perfect example of a content dispute, and diffs 157-161 in QuackGurus post above, which are about three months old. AlbinoFerret13:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say that the fact that you wrote the above, is a perfect example of your persistence in objecting, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to the inclusion of reasonable and well sourced content about health risks being added to the articles, by editors who are very experienced in dealing with health matters in WP. That you bring this up again, even here and now, is exactly why I support the topic ban. You know, I looked and looked, but I couldn't find a diff for this, but didn't you write somewhere that you care about this so much because your wife really needed to quit smoking and tried and tried and couldn't, and it was e-cigs that finally helped her do it? If I have that wrong, I apologize. Jytdog (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say to that, that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But consensus is how WP is edited. Others have reasons to include this in the article, where it has stayed for the last three months or so. That does not mean I dont think its a WP:WEIGHT issue. It means that its included even though I think it has a weight issue. What you dont have is actions pointing to advocacy. You have a difference of opinion on content. AlbinoFerret 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I think DocJames can likely speak for himself but anyway Jytdog, the "unfolding medical consensus" is basically that the short term risks are pretty low and that the long term risks should theoretically also be low. The only "speculation" is exactly how low the long-term risks are. If you are saying that in a years time it will be proven that e-cigarettes are more harmful, well that is just basically crystal-ball stuff. We shouldn't really be discussing content here, but since it seems to be being used as evidence so it seems somewhat necessary. Just demonstrates that this is a content dispute really.Levelledout (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

nope you are missing the point; this is about Albino's behavior. i won't belabor this. Jytdog (talk) 15:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support in my view the prior proposal to topic ban AlbinoFerret (which I supported) would have succeeded, except it turned into a sprawling mess and was closed out of hopelessness. This one is squarely focused. AlbinoFerret is a WP:SPA who wages an WP:ADVOCACY campaign favorable to e-cigs, and has been relentless in opposing the addition of well-sourced content about health risks. That pattern is clear from difs above and in the prior ANI. I do not intend this to be cruel, but he has said he is housebound and edits WP to keep himself sane (which I am very sympathetic toward) but still, WP:NOTTHERAPY - and especially not when, combined with advocacy, his editing is disruptive. (I had said this to him directly before.) He is the paradigm of disruptive advocacy on this article. WP is vast - let Albino edit elsewhere and not disrupt this topic any more. Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I am far from a SPA, I am a member of WikiProject Citation cleanup and also edit Bitcoin. As for WP:NOTTHERAPY, sane as in keeping active, you can only watch so many daytime talk shows or soap operas. AlbinoFerret 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Jytdog. I don't have a strong opinion about the duration, but a year seems about right. Bishonen | talk 00:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

Changed my mind about the duration, per Kevin Gorman below. I support an indefinite ban with the option to appeal after a year. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).

• Oppose The situation has to be understood in the context of the protracted, bitter content dispute that is e-cigarette articles. It has already been said several times that topic-banning AF would help. Yes it would help, it would help those editors that have been in a content dispute with AF for months on end. I think almost everybody who has supported this proposal so far is either moderately or highly involved in the said content dispute. I think that AF has raised some genuine issues here, did in fact originally raise some genuine issues on the article talk page with QG going about things in a covert way and dumping 20k edits into articles without so much as notification. QG attacked AF on the article page which according to WP:PERSONAL is not allowed. For this to be turned back round on AF is very harsh and unjust I think. It also seems to be almost entirely without substance.Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Considering that 57% of your edits (257/450 - with 233 to Talk:Electronic cigarette???) are to articles or talk pages about electronic cigarettes, it seems not impossible that you are a SPA as well, perhaps one with a COI. BMK (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Since when is a roughly 50/50 (haven't been bothered to check the exact amount) split between e-cig and other articles considered a single purpose account? What about editors that edit medical articles far more than I actually edit e-cig articles? Or is that perfectly OK I take it? Your COI accusation is spurious, groundless and you have no right to make it. Helps deflect some attention and blame though I suppose.Levelledout (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, you don't think that 57% of your edits going to one very specific subject – electronic cigarettes – and 43% going to a variety of other topics is an pretty good indication that you're here primarily to edit about that one subject? I would beg to differ, I think it's a damn good marker. It's not like your 57% is going to some broad area, like military history, or New York City or films, it's going to electronic cigarettes.

Like Bishonen, whose comment is just below this, I don't believe that any of my edits has been to articles on that subject (but I could be wrong, with over 150,000 edits you do lose track of a few in the course of almost 10 years), but I know advocacy when I see it ... and I've got pretty good radar for SPAs and socks as well. 16:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've already told you what I think so I'll leave it at that for now. I'm not sure what you having made 150,000 edits and being on Misplaced Pages for 10 years has got to do with anything either.Levelledout (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You "think" almost everyone who has supported the topic ban is involved in the content dispute? Please don't hazard tendentious guesses about things that could be checked with a little research. Here, I'll help you with one item: I for my part have barely heard of e-cigarettes. I'm supporting the topic ban because I can recognize advocacy, at least when it's as obvious as this. Bishonen | talk 12:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

I did not do an in depth analysis before I posted of course, nor can you reasonably expect me to before every post. But I do know that of the posters above QuackGuru (the proposer of the ban) and Doc James are highly involved and Cloudjpk, CFCF and Jytdog have all contributed to e-cig articles and have tended to be on the opposing side of the content dispute to Albino Ferret.Levelledout (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, actually, we can expect you to do some due diligence before you make claims about other editors' motivations. BMK (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As I said clearly enough for you to understand I knew with a reasonable degree of certainty that 5/7 editors were involved all along. I thought it was probably 6/7, hence "almost all" which was an approximation. Nobody was mentioned personally and it turned out to be 5/7. Big deal. Can we move on from this nonsense now please?Levelledout (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's "nonsense", it your nonsense, not mine. Are all the supporting editors below also sworn enemies of AlbinoFerret? If not, doesn't that change your !vote, since it was based on the supposed involvement of the supporting editors? And since you're on the other side of the debate as an SPA, should we discount your !vote as you would like us to discount those editors above who you say are involved?

No, what was nonsense was your initial comment, which appears to me to have been disingenuous. BMK (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite the fact that you obviously do not accept this, I am entitled to my original opinion. I stand by it and with all due respect, do not care what you think.Levelledout (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Whatever good AlbinoFerret does tending the electronic cigarette articles is outweighed by the persistent puffing-up of e-cigs as safer than apple pie. Since September 2014, AF has made 2000 talk page comments at the three e-cig articles, and 250 comments here at ANI—it's time to look for other topics. Johnuniq (talk) 07:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Please provide the diffs where I said they are safe as apple pie or any place where I said they were completely safe. As for edit counts, anyone who looks at the logs knows I rarely make complete edits, I always correct them or add to them, on average taking 4 edits to make a comment. I have tried to preview more, but total edits show nothing. AlbinoFerret 15:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Send to ArbCom - This has been going on from time to time for months. This is the sort of content dispute compounded by conduct issues (tendentious editing) for which a full evidentiary hearing by ArbCom works better than letting the loudest editors at a noticeboard establish consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon i hear you that this may end up at Arbcom but that is a step of last resort. The way this place is set up we are meant to handle what we can at lower levels. I think there is a reasonable case for a topic ban for Albino - this is not about "loudest" but rather based on a clear focus on the behavior of one user. Focus (hard to maintain here, I know) is essential. Please reconsider. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support (Disclosure: AF has supported sanctions against me in another ongoing RFc. But I have supported a topic ban for AF on this topic on several previous occassions). The problem here is that many of the editors on this article are here to advocate for electronic cigarettes rather than being here to build an encyclopedia. I think AF is basically a good guy, but it is not healthy for the encyclopedia to have editors who spend 8 or more hours a day focused on making sure that a single article projects a specific POV. I'll add that I would support a similar topic ban for any editor for whom edits to electronic cigarette articles comprise more than 60% of their total edits over the last 3 months. Its not personal, its just that this article has attracted too many editors who are there to promote a specific POV. Formerly 98 (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasons stated by Levelledout. This is part content dispute and part piling on by those with a particular POV. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Not involved in the articles themselves or the content dispute aside from commenting on a few posts brought to WP:RSN. I wouldn't suggest any longer than a year for a ban though as it's generally better to give people a chance. The idea that this is just a content dispute so the behavior issues should be ignored is extremely disingenuous. There are also involved editors here who oppose the ban on grounds of it being a "content dispute", but behavior problems are behavior problems whether there is a content dispute or not. It's apparent there is a problem here with AF considering how much they focus on the topic. One could argue whether they fit the criteria of an WP:SPA or not with brief edits in a couple other articles, but there is definitely advocacy apparent here. Uninvolved editors here are seeing that problem, so I'd highly suggest weighing that when determining community consensus. I do agree with Robert McClenon that the topic will probably need to be considered at ArbCom at some point, but this is one user that keeps coming up and seems like it could be handled here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Very weak support There are probably enough behavioral problems amongst many editors that an arbitration case would be the best way to settle this. Otherwise, I think a topic ban is an acceptable bandaid, though I'd argue for a shorter duration, like 6 months, and revisit a more long term solution if the behavior resumes. AniMate 20:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban of one year for Albino Ferret from discussing the subject of Electronic cigarettes on any page in the English Misplaced Pages. The reason is largely the one given by Bishonen (overly intense advocacy). Possibly one or more other users will need a topic ban too. Cardamon (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of 3 months (preferred) or 1 year from articles on electronic cigarettes, broadly construed, but not indefinite. AF shows some signs of wanting to edit other articles, let's see some evidence of constructive contributions outside this topic area. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is clearly a content dispute with both sides unwilling to reach a compromise. The "evidence" presented by QuackGuru isn't very strong. One could also take Bishonen's argument of WP:ADVOCACY and apply it to QuackGuru, since his recent contributions suggest that he has been engaging in a campaign unfavorable to e-cigarettes. As far as I can tell, none of the diffs violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies. I do see a strong case for banning QuackGuru though: This comment by QG is clearly targeted against AF's personal life, and the edit summary is not just inappropriate, but also inexplicably cruel and disgusting. -A1candidate 11:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

!vote above doesn't deal with Albino's behavior but rather attempts to focus on QG's- classic rhetorical move. This is a proposal about Albino's long term disruptive behavior as evidenced in the prior ANI (which lost focus) and additional diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 12:17, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

None of the diffs presented violate any of WP's policies, as far as I can tell. -A1candidate 13:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban having reviewed this whole mess over the last half hour. My only 'involvement' with e-cigarettes was thinking someone's looked hilarious at Wikimedia DC's GLAM bootcamp. As is generally the case with tbans, Albino would still be able to raise the situation before arbcom if desired. I don't think a time limit has a purpose since plenty of people just take an editing vacation until their tban expires and come back just as problematic as they were before, but AF could appeal it in the future after spending time productively contributing elsewhere on WP. Kevin Gorman (talk) 13:30, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Good point. I agree, indef with the option to appeal is better. Bishonen | talk 13:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC).

• Could you show me a single diff (as presented by QuackGuru) that actually violated an established guideline? -A1candidate 13:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• See WP:BATTLE for a start. My own view is that both editors should be topic banned. You, yourself, could stand to read and reflect upon WP:IDHT. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Just because two people are involved in a battle doesn't make both of them are aggressors. I do not see any single edit by AF violating a policy or guideline. -A1candidate 14:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose witchhunts and general attempts to silence opponenets. Someone needs to stand up to this nonsense.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 16:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

distraction; not focused on Albino's behavior. Jytdog (talk) 16:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))

How is resisting the POV-pushing by QuackGuru a form of advocacy? Please explain. -A1candidate 14:49, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban of at least a year. I am uninvolved with the topic. To the best of my recollection, I have never edited anything to do with electronic cigarettes, but I can recognize disruptive behavior in support of a POV when I see it. Cullen Let's discuss it 18:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm not convinced there have been any policy violations, or BF editing, or PAs that would constitute firm measures for behavioral issues. I see disagreement, and certainly hope disagreement or an opposing view doesn't warrant a block or ban these days. Atsme☯ 23:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

the difs for long term behavioral issues are clear. I do understand, Atsme, why you be sympathetic to someone opposing the application of MEDRS, since you would support having positive content on the cancer-fighting powers of amygdalin in WP, using sources like naturalnews, per this. You, at least have been doing that only on Talk, and have not been editing warring over it for months now, as Albino has. Jytdog (talk) 02:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The only warring originates with you Jytdog, as demonstrated by your behavior here and now with a PA against me for expressing an opinion where I'm supposed to be expressing an opinion. Unfortunately, your biotech POV is imposed on editors wherever you go. Please try to understand WP:FRINGE is a guideline, not a policy. Atsme☯ 13:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support for the same reasons as the last forty-'leven times this topic-ban proposal has come up. Closing admin should pay careful attention to whether some of these !votes are from SPAs or near-SPAs and are possibly voting on subject matter as opposed to behavior. Zad68 03:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support, perhaps a month, then another chance on a short leash. Per this and others, does not (or will not) understand MEDRS; should by now. Not the only disruptive party but disruptive nonetheless. (Note also QuackGuru's repugnant slur against AF, where he accused AF of lying about their disability. Should be an instant block for that, lengthened by aggravating circumstances: block log, experience). Oppose> - Looks mainly like a content dispute to me, with the conduct issues on both sides -- no way can just one side of the e-cig wars could be accused of WP:OWN and WP:TE. And lest process trump content, from what I can see the dangers are being exaggerated unduly and relative to conventional cigarettes by QuackGuru et. al., and AlbinoFerret and others are correct in trying to limit this POV-pushing. No, I don't like some of AlbinoFerret's exaggerations and misunderstandings of policy here (re which e.g. Jytdog has commented). But However, I see that at least two of the editors calling for a topic ban (and among the quickest to do so) are also heavily involved in the impasse/polarization in this topic area. All the kettles need to simmer down; suggest 1RR/week for all concerned or something like that. Mentorship/probation for AlbinoFerret on the stuff mentioned (especially MEDRS and WP:OPPONENT) when they come back. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 15:25, 8 March 2015 (UTC) changed !vote, added a bit 21:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Middle 8 this thread is focused on AlbinoFerrets' behavior. Things like this end up at Arbcom when the community fails to manage them. The most common way the community fails is that it loses focus when discussing complex issues or disputes. (you have seen that happen, as when you brought an RfC/U against Quackguru). There is no doubt that AlbinoFerret has been a key participant in the longterm battleground. Many, many diffs showing that. The community can handle disputes like this, if it focuses. If you want to start a thread on some other individual involved, please do so. But please do not distract from the issue at hand. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, Jytdog. (And it's interesting how many of the editors who contributed so tenaciously to the loss of focus in the QG RfC are suddenly so able to stay focused on AF, yet lose focus when it comes to QG. One would almost think there was systemic bias afoot.) Looking at the merits: Which diffs? Going from QG's thread-starter, the two links to ANI threads are weak Re QG's other diffs: Just because AF removes stuff QG added is not prima facie evidence of misconduct -- far from it; I see a lot of UNDUE. AF's removing the WMA however is not good. And I see a pattern of OWN in both QG and AF, worse in QG. Is that it? Where can I find a good, concise summary of the most obvious diffs? Or maybe you or someone could just paste in the five worst ones? --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 16:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

update: OK, although the evidence in the thread-starter first ANI is weak, I see more that you and others provided in the comments (yours: scrolling to: "Support topic ban - Albino has gone on a tear now..."). Having a look now. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 19:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, your example (of AF writing about pharma companies lobbying to have e-cigs treated as medical devices) would indeed be a compelling instance of twisting a source (just as Mallexikon showed QG did with GERAC, which you were one of the only editors to grok). Except: AF explains (supported with diffs) that the passage they wrote was originally sourced to a different source that the passage indeed summarized accurately. (I don't care for his ABF-ing and calling your characterization "twisting" of what happened, but they wouldn't be the first to run hot under pressure on a drama board.) I'll keep looking. If there's a smoking gun -- besides fighting over including WMA, which is bad, but alone not imo worth a ban either -- I'm not seeing it. I see general TE (which is at least as bad with QG); I don't see it as over the top: is this a situation like QG where those who know AF well gnash their teeth in frustration but have so far failed to build a strong case? If not, can you help, and point me to the good evidence? It's a lot to go through. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 20:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Thanks for considering more carefully. QG's first link above - Albino's contribs, demonstrate he is a SPA on e-cigarettes; this is not ambiguous. Per WP:SPA, SPA editors are often agenda-driven. The next link is the old ANI case, and I see you are digging through that. I'll just pick one diff from there (of what are many) namely this, where AF's edit notes was "emove older study that newer ones find answers to", but what we did, was remove a source (a review of the literature) that described the lack of good evidence for harm reduction and risks of e-cigs, dated 2013, and moving up 2 practice guidelines, one dated 2014 and the other dated 2013, which each recommend e-cigs for harm reduction. (note he left the 2013 ref... why, in his reasoning?) but in any case these are different kinds of sources (and there has been tension in project Medicine about how to WEIGHT practice guidelines vs reviews of the evidence) and they don't cancel each other out. The reasoning was bogus or incompetent, but the effect was to eliminate what AF calls "speculation" about the risks. That is the crux of his agenda in those articles. That ANI case was back in November. If you look at the next difs provided by QG, you will see that agenda being enacted in each edit. Using article-comment notation to hide the "Environmental effects" section (mostly about risks) with edit note that "it is trivia"' removing facts about risks stated in WP's voice on the basis that they must be attributed (that is how pejoratively he has come to view discussion of risks - that it is so perjorative that it must be attributed)... etc. He is a disruptive and persistent presence. Hence the topic ban. Which looks like it will succeed, so far. I think it is objectively on point. Jytdog (talk) 20:31, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

yeah the thing about lobbying was really frustrating. his original source] was an opinion piece and of course we prefer straight reporting over opinion pieces (he could have cited the opinion piece, attributing it, yes). but what we really got my goat was that the NYT reporting (the more reliable source) was unambiguous in emphasizing the victory of the e-cig lobbyists. so twisted. and adding the rhetorically self-righteous stuff about the COI of pharma with their lobbyists... when all lobbyists are nakedly self-interested. just... argh. on that whole thing. But of a piece with the pattern of relentless pro-e-cigarette editing. its the pattern. Jytdog (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, AF clearly doesn't/can't/won't grok MEDRS and there is a pattern. --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 20:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban from e-cig related articles. Per Bishonen, I see obvious advocacy. Assuming good faith, I feel that both the articles and AF would benefit from him spending his wiki-time on other topics for the foreseeable future. --RexxS (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose action against AlbinoFerret or QuackGuru via ANI - This should go to Arbcom. Considering the e-cigarette dispute keeps popping up at ANI and has apparently gone on for so long now, and also considering there have been concerns raised regarding conduct of multiple users, this should go to arbcom where evidence can be carefully evaluated by those uninvolved. Seems binding solutions are needed at e-cegarette.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:38, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

This thread is focused on AlbinoFerret's behavior. We can manage this at ANI if people bring clear cases and responders focus on the question at hand. Here, it is AF's behavior. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 03:08, 10 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))

• Procedural oppose There are two main culprits in this current shitstorm. If the community lacks the cojones to sanction QG, who is the main culprit, and is content to let him off with a weak "warning" (how many warnings is that now?) it is against natural justice to sanction AF. I tend to agree with the view that arbitration will be the way forward here. A lynch mob at AN/I probably won't do it on this occasion. --John (talk) 07:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
• Question: I see several people opposing a topic ban on the ground that the whole QuackGuru – AlbinoFerret thing should go to RFAR instead. Is anybody actually planning or working on an RFAR submission? John, BoboMeowCat, Robert McClenon, for instance? This question is not meant as criticism, as nobody is obliged to spend time on anything on Misplaced Pages beyond what they want to, and filing RFAR's is a bugger, with the diffs and so on. Just, it would be convenient to know, and may affect the outcome of this thread. Bishonen | talk 12:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC).

I have the same question, and I don't think any of the "procedural opposers" have any intention of filing on ArbCom. I do not think this issue is a QG/AF issue, but rather the immensely problematic editing history of AlbinoFerret, whose entire edit history since September 2014 is the most egregious example of relentless disruptive WP:SPA advocacy I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages. Softlavender (talk) 03:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for at least six months to a year. His edits and endless disruptive discussions on the subject are simply far too POV and tendentious, disrupting the progress of the entire subject and the articles it encompasses. It does seem like blatant advocacy. Softlavender (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a draconian solution at this point - especially since the air is rather full of smog because of misbehaviour by QG at this point. Suggest that such issues at that point be addressed to the Arbitration Committee, which will slow down everything in all likelihood. Collect (talk) 12:57, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

The diffs are all presented and the question is clear, with respect to AlbinoFerret. Please take the time to focus on AF's behavior, which is the topic of this discussion. Thanks. There is a separate (malformed) section for QG above. Jytdog (talk) 14:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))

• (Non-administrator comment) I am heavily involved in the topic at hand having spent a long time editing the e-cigarette article pretty heavily and having clashed with QG and AF. I think in the case of both editors the battleground that e-cig has become has brought out a negative side to their WP editing, in QG this is found in WP:OWN and IDHT, in AF it's more ADVOCACY and leaning towards SPA as it becomes more and more a focus of attention. The large proportion of AF's edits being on the Talk pages of e-cig articles rather than the article themselves reflects, in my eyes, his attempt to bring some form of consensus to article improvements rather than riding roughshod over the opinions and policies of WP. A topic ban, in the short term, may make things better. I certainly think AF taking a vacation from the article may be good for AF's stress levels. But the root problem is that e-cig, and the daughter articles, are battlegrounds where a lot of people are shouting, and nobody's listening. I don't know whether ArbCom can do something to help in this matter but banning AF from the page will not reduce the amount of problems there. SPACKlick (talk) 12:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per InfiniteBratwurst. I used to be involved, but haven't edited any of the articles in several months. I've been slightly active on their talk pages, though. EllenCT (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Infinitebratwurst's !vote was not based on looking at the diffs of AlbinoFerret's behavior and thinking about them in light of PAG, so that !vote should not count for the closer, and neither should this one. Jytdog (talk) 20:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC) (striking, should not be commenting like this. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC))

• Note. It's been a problem previous times that this has come up that those involved in the dispute separate into obvious camps but are pretty vocal. Out of curiosity I checked the history of the users posting in this section and their edit count on whatever e-cig talk page had the highest edits (doesn't indicate time of involvement):

AlbinoFerret: 1641; QuackGuru: 630; Cloudjpk: Not available but has edited at the article a bit 141.; Doc James: 490; BMK: 0; CFCF: 151; Jytdog: 91; Bishonen: 0; Levelledout: 233; InfiniteBratwurst: 10 (relatively new w/ 77 total edits); Johnuniq: 13; Robert McClenon: 0; Formerly 98: 148; Winkelvi: 0; Kingofaces43: 3 (RFC and RSN post replies); AniMate: 0; Cardamon: 0; JzG: 0 ; A1candidate: 22; Kevin Gorman: 0; Two kinds of pork: 0; Cullen328: 0; Atsme: 0; Zad68: 203; Middle 8: 0; RexxS: 0; BoboMeowCat: 0; John: 0; Softlavender: 0; Collect: 0; EllenCT: 84.

Obviously I'm not suggesting to ignore those involved, but I always lose track of who's actually been involved in the article whenever this comes up here, at RSN, etc. Figured it might be helpful for others trying gauge the situation too. If not, just more text and numbers for the wall. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's the same data presented in a different way:

BMK (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I wanted to try to keep it as condensed as possible, but I normally don't tinker with tables here, so I didn't think of that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Wonder why you left Cloudjpk's data out? They have 112 edits (80.576% of mainspace edits) to e-cig articles and 176 edits (100% of talk space edits) to those articles talks. In total 83.965% of Cloudjpk's edits have been to e-cigarette articles. Significantly more than even AlbinoFerret. SPACKlick (talk) 11:17, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The edit count cool was acting really wonky when I tried to search Cloudjpk's history. It essentially said the user had no edits whatsoever yesterday, which I knew was incorrect. Today it looks like it is working now. No idea what causes that, but I've heard to tool can act funny sometimes. I've updated the info on my post and made the minor change to BMK's table as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I am involved in the articles, but not to the extent the raw numbers show. On average it takes 4 or more edits on a comment for me to get it right. I seldom make a perfect edit or comment and leave. Any view of the histories will show this. I think that numbers only tell part of the story. AlbinoFerret 22:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You are not "involved" in the articles, you are ***INVOLVED*** with the articles. Articles on e-cigarettes make up the first (Electronic cigarette - 466 edits, 55.47% of your total article edits), second (Safety of electronic cigarettes - 82 edits, 9.7%} and fifth (Legal status of electronic cigarettes - 23 edits, 2.7%) in the list of articles you've edited most, making up a total of 67.97% of your article edits. The list of article talk pages you've edited has Talk:Electronic cigarette as #1, with 1641 edits, 69.35% of your talk page edits, Talk:Safety of electronic cigarettes as #2 (293, 12.38%), Talk:Legal status of electronic cigarettes as #5 (72, 3.04%), for a total of 85.08% of your talk page edits (that includes 7 other edits on the subject in archives.)

These numbers -- 67.07% of article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits -- most certainly live in SPA territory. It's clear what subject you're here to edit, and crystal what your position is on it. That's the "obvious advocacy" that several very experienced editors have commented on, and that's why a topic ban is appropriate. BMK (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with your label as a SPA. I tend to post more to articles I'm interested in, nothing strange there. Your raw numbers tell nothing and I disagree with the spin. I would also like to point out that slightly over half of my editing is on talk pages. Discussing and trying to make the articles better. If you take into account the number of edits I make to a specific edit or comment, it isnt that large. You seem to have some attraction to this section, and seem to post an awful lot here. AlbinoFerret 01:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

My calculations show that AlbinoFerret has made over 2890 edits on the topic of e-cigs to talk pages (or noticeboards) since 30 September 2014—over 17 talk-page edits per day for 164 days. That is beyond enthusiasm and is unhealthy for other editors, particularly in a contentious topic. Johnuniq (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

How many of those were to the same comment or edit? How many editors you are comparing me to are disabled and sit at their computer because they cant easily leave the house? AlbinoFerret 01:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@AlbinoFerret: If QuackGuru cannot, and should not, bring up your physical status in his arguments, then you, also, should not cite it as a mitigating factor -- not that it makes any difference, really. Presumably you have the same difficulties while editing an article or talk page on e-cigarettes as you do when editing an article or talk page on some other subject, so the percentages I cited above, which are not "raw numbers" -- 67.07% of article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits on the subject of electronic cigarettes -- have nothing whatsoever to do with your physical state. Please don't bring up that red herring again. BMK (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thats wrong, QuackGuru made harassing statements about my disability. But its a fact of life, one you obviously dont want discussed because it shows that your numbers have no basis for comparison. What you have are large numbers and innuendo. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make.

They are raw numbers because they dont take into account the number of edits I make to the same comment or edit. Your comments are bordering very close on harassment if not going over the line by trying to say that my physical status has no bearing on my editing here. It is something you cant possibly have knowledge of.

Number of posts do not equal advocacy. AlbinoFerret 02:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you not understand percentages? Unless you edit e-cig articles differently than you edit all other articles, the numbers are not raw, they're relative to your overall output. BMK (talk) 04:43, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Since you ignored this, I will ask a second time. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make. Number of posts do not equal advocacy WP:ADVOCACY neither do percentages. AlbinoFerret 12:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, percentages are a good measure of advocacy (and SPA) by showing that an editor is focusing too much on one topic. Using a percentage would account for your tendency to make copy edits and simply show what area you edit the most relative to your total contributions here. There's really no arguing with those numbers. Physical disability should be playing no role in this specific conversation because it should not be making you focus so much on one topic like this. It's one thing to have a lot of time available (which we've discussed on my talk page), but it's that your time is concentrated into one area that is the problem people have repeatedly brought up here. Maybe you're not seeing that, but BMK is actually being pretty well reasoned above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that I am editing an article that is interesting to me, and that some people want me to edit other articles more. Where might I find the policy or guideline that says you must edit x number of articles? I dont think editing articles that dont intrest me is something that should be forced. When I find a subject I find interesting, I edit the article. But I think you are misapplying advocacy. Advocacy isnt posting to much to one article. AlbinoFerret 19:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Gimme a break, AlbinoFerret. A lot of my edits consist of correcting my own typos or copy editing my own comments to make my thoughts clearer. That is common. But any objective uninvolved editor can look at the totality of my edits, and they will conclude that I am a generalist editor. Then, they can look at the totality of your edits, and they will see with crystal clarity that you are here to advance a certain point of view about e-cigarettes. Please do not try to deny what is obvious to any intelligent objective person. Cullen Let's discuss it 02:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No, they show I post a lot. I have been editing Bitcoin for a month and have made 216 edits to the page and talk page. About 7 a day, when I am interested in a topic, I post and discuss it and try and improve the article. I am not here to advance a specific point of view on e-cigarettes, and the number of posts doesnt prove that. (added afterwards - This no intelligent person is starting to sound like No True Scotsman argument) AlbinoFerret 02:58, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm really not interested in marginal topics like e-cigarettes and bitcoins, so I don't feel like reading this megillah. Can you show me a link where QuackGuru harassed you about your stated handicap? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Since you asked, its easly found under his topic with plenty of discussion on the topic, but you can find it here. AlbinoFerret 03:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bugs: See the section above this. My synopsis: QuackGuru make a remark that he absolutely shouldn't have, was roundly criticized for it by editors from all sides, and got warned by an admin who told him if he did it again he'd be blocked. The End.

Oh, wait a minute... the e-cig and fringe science advocates seized on it as a sideshow to distract everyone from the proposed topic ban against AlbinoFerret, inserted a new section calling for QuackGuru to be blocked above the topic-ban section, out of chronological order (so innocent editors would come across it first) and have been trying their best ever since to whip up a frenzy to block QG, not only because he is one of the stalwart editors preventing fringe science from infecting WP, but because it helps keep people from focusing on the topic ban necessary to prevent AlbinoFerret from continuing his advocacy for e-cigarettes. Up there (the section above) is a sideshow, down here is the real deal. BMK (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru's comment was rude and condescending, and shouldn't have been said. But it's possible he's thinking back on some users we've had who claimed to be handicapped (ItsLassieTime comes to mind) and it was one of that prolific sockpuppeteer's many lies. So it's not unreasonable to have suspicions like that. But it's best to keep those suspicions to oneself until or if an appropriate time arises. However, disabled users shouldn't expect any special treatment, and in fact they probably ought not even bring up the subject. "TMI". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's better for people to keep unsavory information like that in the closet. Or, wild idea, we could afford people with disabilities reasonable accommodations (as is done in many civilized places to varying degrees) and not be dicks to them, including not engaging in "disability policing". --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 12:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

It's not about keeping "unsavory" information "in the closet". It's about not using one's handicap as an excuse. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, AlbinoFerret didn't bring up his disability in such a way as to suggest he should be excused for anything. If I recall correctly, QC did bring up AFs disability, and did it in a manner that was intended to discredit AF, distract, and wave a red herring like a giant flag at a sporting event. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying that, that's just an example or scenario that can happen and it's why users ought not be bragging/complaining about their handicaps. QG seems to have seen something in Ferret's comments that suggested he might not actually be handicapped, and the memories of abusive users like ItsLassieTime may have overwhelmed QG's good sense at that point. There are better ways to explore that question than QG did. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I saw what happened when it happened. QG did it to discredit AF. What's more, AF has never "bragged" about having a disability. It doesn't matter what QG saw/thought/or had a memory of. His comments were beyond the pale and WAY out of line. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, AF has been mentioning their disability in what appears to be justification for the editing habits not too far above. . Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• Just a reminder, this section is about imposing a topic ban on AlbinoFerrett due to his obvious advocacy in the 67.07% of his article edits and 85.08% of article talk page edits on the subject of electronic cigarettes. BMK (talk) 16:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Since you ignored this above, I will ask a third time. Please point me to the policy or guideline that speaks on the number of posts one is allowed to make. Number of posts do not equal advocacy WP:ADVOCACY neither do percentages. But since you like percentages, the edits above that QuackGuru posted to try and show a problem account for only 0.02% of my edits to e-cigarette articles.. Those edits were reasoned, discussed, and not the product of advocacy. AlbinoFerret 17:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Even assuming that AlbinoFerret's conduct is not advocacy, the edits linked above and conduct in this discussion suggest that some distance from this topic may have a healing effect on someone with a lot of energy and dedication to give to editing Misplaced Pages. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 20:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban as a clear example of persistent advocacy. Moral support for whoever has to read all the way to the end of this whole huge mess of a thread. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, for a month at minimum, for advocacy and so that AlbinoFerret can move on from this and contribute to the project. All the time we are wasting arguing here is time that we are not spending helping Misplaced Pages expand. Based on his actions and the personal attacks made over this, I don't think that AlbinoFerret can contribute in a neutral way to the E-cigarettes article, for now at least. Iwilsonp (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose (involved editor) Originally i intended not to comment, because the pile-up of involved editors was already bad. But now it seems that i have to: By !voting to topicbanning AF, on the premises presented, we are creating an environment where editors will not dare to disagree with editors like QG, no matter how wellfounded the arguments to disagree are, or how little QG actually responds to good faith objections on the talk-page. We are also sending the signal that: Do not dare to only edit areas that you are interested in, because you will get banned. Do remember that being an SPA is not against policy, being interested in a topic is also not against policy..... Because no matter how we slice and dice it, the main argument here is not that AF is breaking our editing policies, or his POV, but instead that he is not conforming to some editors view of how multifacetted you must be to pass the bar. This is not the encyclopedia that anyone can edit anymore ... it is the encyclopedia for people who conform to certain characteristics. --Kim D. Petersen 11:40, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

To clarify: I do not see policy violations to back up a ban. --Kim D. Petersen 11:42, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

• User:AlbinoFerret repeatedly added nowiki tags to the Electronic cigarette page 9 times. The first nowiki tag was on 17:12, 23 October 2014. The last nowiki tag was on 19:37, 20 December 2014. Not sure why this happened. QuackGuru (talk) 18:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

You might check this out There is a bug in the visual editor. One of the reasons I stopped using it was because it was so buggy on my Linux distribution. If you look at the history instead of doing a date to date search, each of those edits comes up with the "Visual editor" tag on the edit comments. There is nothing between those tags, its basically a tag and another closing tag with no text. This is a AGF problem, nothing between the tags, not asking me about it anywhere, and it the result of a bug in the editor, but right away jumping to negative motives. AlbinoFerret 19:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

As our data source we can Use Kingofaces43 list above, and add to it the four !votes which have been posted since: Mendaliv (0 edits), Opabinia regalis (0), Iwilsonp (0) and Kim D. Petersen (780). We throw out all the high-numbered editors, which leaves us with thisL

• Oppose - 8, including three based on procedure or venue
• Support - 15, includng one "very weak support"

So of the presumably uninvolved editors who !voted, 65% (15/23) are in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. If you want to throw out all the editors with any edits at all, that takes away 2 supports and 2 opposes (13/19) for a 68%. True, one of the supports is "very weak", but bear in mind that three of the opposes are based on procedure or venue, and not on the merits of the case. Throw those out (the "very weak" and the procedurals) and you've got 80% (12/15).

So it seems anyway you slice it, the uninvolved editors are in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret.

But what about an overall state of the discussion, counting all editors whether they're involved or not? Then you've got 21 support !votes and 13 oppose !votes. That's a 62% majority in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret, not all that different from the percentage of the uninvolved editors.

Of course, the closing admin -- and I really think it had better be an admin in this case -- doesn't count the votes (or, at least, doesn't just count the votes), they evaluate the strength of the various arguments as well. I'm well aware of that, so there's no need to remind me. But the count is still helpful as it gives a thumbnail representation of the state of play at this moment. BMK (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• InfiniteBratwurst has been indef blocked as a sockpuppet of FergusM1970. Therefore, these results change:

• All uninvolved editors: 68% (15/22) in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret
• All editors commenting: 64% (21/33) in favor of a topic ban for AlbinoFerret

With no new recent comments, I believe it's coming to the point where an uninvolved admin should closely evaluate this sub-thread and determine whether a consensus exists for levying a topic ban concerning electronic cigarettes on AlbinoFerret, due to his obvious advocacy in favor of a pro-e-cig POV. BMK (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

There is strong support for a topic ban. Numerous editors support a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. For example, please read the comments above by User:Cloudjpk, User:Doc James, User:CFCF, User:Jytdog, User:Bishonen , User:Johnuniq, User:Formerly 98, User:Cardamon, User:JzG, User:Kevin Gorman, User:Cullen328 User:Zad68, User:RexxS, User:Softlavender, User:Mendaliv. Only a voluntary break from the topic area is against the community consensus. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret. QuackGuru (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, You've had your say. Please don't WP:Bludgeon. I took the liberty of removing the <big> tags from your comment. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Notification. I started an ArbCom discussion since this is going nowhere. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Battleground on e-cig articles. QuackGuru (talk) 23:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
• QuarkGuru archived this sub-thread, but I have re-opened it. Although he started this, it is not his property, and the views of many editors, both pro- and con- have been expressed, and should be evaluated collectively by an admin. Also, QG has a conflict of interest in that he opened an arbitartion request, which is unlikely to be heard as long as these threads are open. BMK (talk) 00:49, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

KimDabelsteinPetersen opposes a topic ban for AlbinoFerret

Community authorized discretionary sanctions for Electronic cigarette articles

The opposers are mostly focused on the fact that they don't feel community sanctions are appropriate to contain the disruption, either because they feel an ArbCom case would be better, or because they would disadvantage established editors, or because they would give admins too much latitude. Given that the vast majority of commenters here feel that there is disruption in the topic area, and that a majority of commenters are in favour of sanctions, the consensus here seems to be to enact the sanctions.

There was some concern about not accepting community sanctions without a "sunset clause". For this reason, I am altering the wording of the sanctions to allow blocks of only up to one year in length. The limit of one year was suggested in the discussion, and is also the same as in ArbCom's discretionary sanctions.

The sanctions to be imposed are as follows:

The community authorizes general sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page bans, topic bans, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocks of up to one year for any editor so warned. Sanctions issued under this authority must be logged at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Electronic cigarettes. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed: The community authorizes discretionary sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page banning, topic banning, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocking any editor so warned. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.

• Support as proposer, and thanks for Hasteur for the verbage. This dispute has devolved, and would benefit from some extra attention to get it sorted out. DS should expedite this process, and, in my mind, is sorely needed. HiDrNick! 20:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Does Hasteur support this too? I would think so, given that he edited it for you, but I would like to check. Iwilsonp (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

No, no. Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just cribbed his wording from the Gamergate community sanctions. I didn't intend to imply his endorsement. HiDrNick! 21:51, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Well after the fact (no User Pings or talk page notices) Couple points: Make sure there's an appropriate log page to log the warnings/sanctions. Make sure there's a venue for editors to neutrally report what they percieve as violations in the sanctions without calls of ADMIN-shoping. Hasteur (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as this is not the solution to the ongoing deletion of reliable sources. Admins don't need this to topic ban an editor anyhow. QuackGuru (talk) 20:56, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support as proposed, as E-cigs are in any case a contentious enough subject that this kind of dispute is liable to flare up between another few editors (not just QuackGuru and AlbinoFerret) in the future, and this would let an admin deal with it without this sort of mess all over ANI. Iwilsonp (talk) 21:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Although I suspect it will end up at WP:RFAR before it's over. — Ched :  ?  22:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Unfortunately this is unlikely to lead to anything substantial. There are a number of WP:SPA or near-SPA accounts involved and this would only limit the time needed to address issues, but the problem would still remain. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 22:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - The proposed discretionary sanctions could be avoided with an immediate block of QuackGuru for multiple counts of disruptive behavior in the above sections. If discretionary sanctions are authorized, it is likely that QG will look for a new topic area to disrupt and antagonize a new group of editors before being brought back to this noticeboard, as has happened countless times in the past. -A1candidate 22:34, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment We have proof of meat puppetry among these articles. We know that the e-cig manufacturers are unhappy with the medical community's position on the known and unknown health effects and safety of e-cig. One advocacy group has contacted my university to attack me personally. We need to make sure that we uphold high quality sources. Not sure if this will make that easier or harder since some involved are using throw away accounts / SPA. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have proof that AlbinoFerret, or any of QG's perceived opponents, have engaged in meat puppetry? Most probably not. -A1candidate 22:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes User:FergusM1970 linked to his twitter feed which include his efforts at meat puppetry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose not sure this will help . Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:40, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
• Question - I only recall discretionary sanctions being put in place by ArbCom, I can't recall a solo admin or the community doing it. Can someone provide a precedent where the community placed discretionary sanctions on a subject? (Not that the lack of precedent necessarily means it can't be done, but it would certainly make it easier to stand up, should this receive a consensus.) BMK (talk) 00:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing! You're looking for Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions#Community-authorised_sanctions. HiDrNick! 01:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! That was very helpful. BMK (talk) 04:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per CFCF. BMK (talk) 05:54, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support - After careful reconsideration of the issue, I am changing my !vote based primarily on the comment of Robert McClenon and some of the information provided by Bishonen. I still believe, though, that a topic ban for AlbinoFerret would be the best first step in guaranteeing that the e-cig articles are balanced and NPOV, which to me is the primary concern, more so than the "atmosphere" of the editing environment. BMK (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Question - if editors misbehave despite warnings, then uninvolved admins can sanction them anyway, right? -- so what does this add? Is it a way of saying "don't worry, sanction as needed, it won't be seen as controversial"? --Middle 8 (contribs • COI) 14:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Not exactly. For example, without discretionary sanctions (DS), administrators lack the authority to topic ban editors, and may only block editors in a limited set of circumstances outlined in the blocking policy. Once DS are authorized, administrators are given much more latitude to enforce community norms around a particular topic. Furthermore, sanctions placed under DS cannot be undone without a clear community consensus (or a motion of the Arbitration Committee), while ordinary blocks can be lifted by any uninvolved administrator. I think that about sums it up. HiDrNick! 14:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Middle 8, for my money the big difference discretionary sanctions make is that they allow a single uninvolved admin to topic ban an editor (on their own discretion, hence "discretionary" sanctions). Much easier than schlepping the person to ANI and trying to raise consensus for a topic ban, indeed perhaps a bit too easy in this case. I'm dubious about instituting DS here. Admins should probably be more ready to block disruptive editors in the area, something they can do without DS. (Take that as a weak oppose.) Bishonen | talk 22:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC).

• Support - There have been too many threads about electronic cigarette, and community discretionary sanctions will work as well as ArbCom discretionary sanctions to get a few contentious editors off the article. If the community doesn't do this, the ArbCom eventually will, because this will eventually go to the ArbCom if the community doesn't impose general sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Robert McClenon's arguments above. I still think that ANI is a fine place to bring clear, well-formed cases for anything related to these articles, but these sanctions should help calm things down. Good thinking! Jytdog (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support it can only improve the environment. All too often things are reremoved or readded without discussion, and discussions are being ignored or answered with non-arguments. And i'm not talking about a particular "side" in this. If the article is to be improved, then it will require editors to cooperate, and seek consensus, instead of acting on their own, and a strong oversight may just force editors to do so. May end up in some blocks/bans - but if that is what it takes, then that is the way forward. --Kim D. Petersen 02:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

• Note. User:KimDabelsteinPetersen just declared a possible WP:COI. See User:KimDabelsteinPetersen#WP:COI statement. QuackGuru (talk) 00:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

How on Earth would that constitute a COI with regards to this discussion? --Kim D. Petersen 01:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

You may have a possible COI to the electronic cigarettes pages according to your User:KimDabelsteinPetersen#WP:COI statement. This is relevant to this discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Shall we restart? How is that relevant to this particular discussion? Or are you claiming that i have a COI with regards wanting discretionary sanctions? Are you sure you are thinking this through? --Kim D. Petersen 02:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No thanks. I left a message on your talk page earlier. We can continue that discussion if you want. QuackGuru (talk) 02:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Weak support partially agree with KimDabelsteinPetersen. I also think that anything is likely to be better than some of stuff that has been going on at ANI recently which doesn't reflect well on any of the involved parties. However Striking my initial weak support for an oppose in light of comments from Middle 8 and Bishonen. Was never quite sure about this, but in light of those comments I agree and don't think that this would be the best way to proceed. Whilst there are probably one or two problem editors out there that no doubt need dealing with, I'm no longer convinced that ANI does not remain the better method for doing this. I also would have thought that getting the involved parties to work together would be just as important. Which would perhaps mean article restrictions in addition to editor restrictions such as a 1RR rule for instance.Levelledout (talk) 16:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Notification. I started an ArbCom discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Battleground on e-cig articles. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

(That request has since been declined.) HiDrNick! 12:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support E-cigarette is a battleground. It will remain so for a long time because of content disagreements and lack of discussion. The main article has been protected multiple times. When its protected very little discussion happens, and edits are stockpiled for the next round of problems. AlbinoFerret 03:35, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support per AlbinoFerret. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Unless the tide changes, it looks as if this thread is moving towards a consensus in favor of community-imposed discretionary sanctions. I would like, however, to address the closer of this thread: please do not be tempted to think that closing this in favor of that consensus -- if that is what you find -- obviates the results of the sub-thread above concerning a topic ban for AlbinoFerret. That is, if there is a consensus in that thread for a topic ban -- and I believe there is -- it should be enacted, whether or not discretionary sanctions are approved or not in this thread. Failing to impose a topic ban if there is a consensus for one simply puts off the problem to another time, and possibly yet another repeat of this discussion. True, discretionary sactions would allow an individual admin to impose a topic ban on AlbinoFerret if the admin thought it was required, but the mere possibility of that occurring in the future should not negate a community consensus for a topic ban for AlbinoFerret here and now. BMK (talk) 05:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Moot, since the topic ban thread was closed first. BMK (talk) 10:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. The difficulties with these articles are intractable at the moment and the editing environment is uncollaborative. Community-authorised discretionary sanctions will be insufficient, because of all the AGF and second chances and other handwringing that drives away editors with good judgment and maintains our high levels of Dunning-Kruger effect across the encyclopaedia, but they're probably better than nothing.—S Marshall T/C 13:31, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Question. Where do editors report an editor who is causing problems when the community-imposed discretionary sanctions are enacted? QuackGuru (talk) 18:09, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• My understanding is that any admin can impose sanctions under DS, so I suppose you can either bring it to an admin of your choice, or you can post a thread on AN/I. BMK (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Maybe this question was asked before about sanctions in general. There might be some specific guidelines to follow. QuackGuru (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Notifications & sanctions will be logged on a subpage of Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions. Since any uninvolved admin can impose sanctions, you can bring it up here or ask an admin directly. HiDrNick! 23:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. This has been a battleground for months, and both sides are entirely convinced that they alone bear The Truth™. Add the toxic influence of WP:SPAs and a combination of vested financial interests, an intersection with pro-cannabis activism and outright craziness out there in the real world, and you have a perfect recipe for never-ending drama. Guy (Help!) 22:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I don't see a way around this. we can move quickly to quality editing of the articles and put some of this bureaucracy behind us. JodyB _talk 00:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support: The articles related to electronic cigarettes are basically a battleground. There are simply too many disputes without speedy resolution related to this topic, and disputes are not being resolved properly in this topic area. Esquivalience 23:04, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment – I'm not sure whether sanctions will be established or not, but I've created a template page for you guys to get them up and running if it they are. The page is located at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Electronic cigarettes. If the sanctions are not approved, simply delete the page. Otherwise, fill the information as appropriate. RGloucester — ☎ 23:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support for numerous reasons mentioned above and per AlbinoFerret.--Wuerzele (talk) 05:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, because this will not get to the root of the problem, which is the number of relentless obvious WP:SPA e-cig manufacturer advocates (one of whom has already been banned from Misplaced Pages, period) who have infiltrated the articles and made them impossible to edit constructively without constant disruption. The most egregious of the lot is AlbinoFerret, whose entire edit history from September 30, 2014 to present speaks for itself. The problem is not the "toxicity of the atmosphere", or the fact that the SPAs have made it a "battleground", but rather the problem is the (paid) SPAs themselves, and the solution is weeding out and eliminating (via permanent topic-banning, indeffing, or community banning) the clearly paid advocates. Softlavender (talk) 10:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Very weak oppose per Softlavender. I do think admin attention can be good at the article, but I don't think discretionary sanctions will address the core problem here. Sanctions are good for addressing acute misbehavior that's readily identifiable such as incivility, edit warring, etc. I would be concerned sanctions just end up banning whoever slips up slightly first without addressing the real problem. What's going on here is more systemic WP:TENDENTIOUS and advocacy-like behavior that isn't readily identifiable by outside editors without taking a close look at each user's overall behavior in discussions and cannot easily be summarized in a few diffs. That being said, I am overall neutral on community discretionary sanctions, but just with the caveat that the underlying issues will likely not be addressed by the sanctions, but hopefully stem the tide at best. If the sanctions are intended as an actual solution, I think that would become a distraction. Short of an WP:RfCU type look at certain users here (I don't think ANI is structured enough for that), ArbCom seems to be the only other option to really sort things out at that level at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

This has gone on long enough. This is something at least, so I'm changing to weak support. My above caveat on needing to really look at long-term behavior still needs to be considered though as an admin is going to really need to scrutinize a lot of prior posts to establish problems in the history of the articles. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:48, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I reflected on this a it more. The core problem of advocacy or just POV issues isn't going to to be solved admin oversight, but either the community looking closely at individual editor behavior or ArbCom doing it. Direct admin attention seems to work for acute issues which aren't the main problem here, but not the tougher to pin down behaviors. Since that appears to be the primary problem here, I don't see discretionary sanctions justifiable or addressing the real issue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:36, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The editors at this article are not the problem. It is the subject itself that is controversial. Having discretionary sanctions in this article would not be effective because a significant number of single purpose accounts edit at this article. Applying sanctions on an article where highly experienced Wikipedians edit as single purpose accounts is not effective in controlling controversy because the editors using them are not invested in protecting the reputations associated with those accounts or in using them long-term to build an online identity. It can be right to use WP:SPAs, and I am not critiquing the use of WP:SPAs or suggesting that anything inappropriate, like socking, is even happening here. I am only suggesting that the Misplaced Pages community gives a bit more weight and protection to established users with established accounts with varied history of participation, as opposed to limited use accounts managed by talented editors. Sanctions is a tool for controlling established accounts, and not for SPAs. Its use here would would empower SPAs and disempower established accounts, which is not a desirable outcome in this space. Taking no action to control the e-cigarettes space is an acceptable response to the controversy. The controversy can persist in this space as it has been for months. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I'm not sure I'm understanding the logic of those who write that the behavior in the topic area is bad, or that the subject area is controversial and generates SPAs, but then vote to oppose discretionary sanctions which would give admins the tools necessary to deal with bad behavior (from anyone) and to reign in the e-cig advocates. This is especially odd to me because if community-imposed discretionary sanctions are not implemented here, it's more then likely that someone will request an ArbCom case, which will be opened this time because the community has failed to act, and the result of that will almost certainly be, among other actions, ArbCom-imposed discretionary sanctions. So, in the end, the probability of there being discretionary sanctions for the e-cigarette topic area seems pretty high, in my opinion. BMK (talk) 02:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I guess I'll clarify, but based on where I've seen discretionary sanctions work, it seems to be when specific diffs can be pointed out as problematic. I don't think a single admin overseeing the articles would be suited for the specific behavior problems discussed here though that require a close look at long-term behavior. Looking over the definition of WP:TENDENTIOUS, how do you think an admin would identify tendentious or advocacy-like behavior compared to easier things to identify like incivility? To me, that doesn't really seem like a judgement call for an admin can easily make (I could be convinced otherwise), but rather for a comprehensive case about the editor to be examined either here or by ArbCom. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, an effective AN/I thread in a non-DS topic which will convince an admin to close it with sanctions to the subject party takes a lot of time and the input of a lot of people. An ArbCom case takes even more time, although the number of participants is typically smaller. Both of these methodologies are generally inefficient at taming a wild subject area -- in fact, ArbCom results can engender more hassles, although they tend to shift to the Arbitration Enforcement area. With discretionary sanctions in place, however, admins can more easily put a stop to misbehavior with non-draconian blocks and bans leading (if necessary) to harsher sanctions. It empowers every admin to use their best judgement under the circumstances, which means that more gets done, and gets done faster. If, as everyone seems to agree (but for different reasons) the e-cigarette subject area needs to be brought under control, discretionary sanctions are an extremely efficient tool to get that done. BMK (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Inasmuch as the Arbitration Committee has deferred to the community, at least for now, it seems this is the only reasonable way to deal with the probems. JodyB _talk 02:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You've already voted to support in your previous post. Why are you voting again? -A1candidate 09:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You are correct, my oversight. I've stricken it above. JodyB _talk 10:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. -A1candidate 23:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: And while we're discussing if sanctions should be enforced, QuackGuru is antagonizing a new group of editors at an unrelated topic area. -A1candidate 23:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Not relevant to this discussion. Start a new thread if you'd like. BMK (talk) 23:46, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

This is relevant because it is evidence of the complete futility of these proposed sanctions. Feel free to disagree, but don't remove or modify my comments. -A1candidate 01:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

This is not relevant because this thread is about providing admins the tools to deal with any editor who misbehaves in this topic area, and not about the current misbehavior (if it is that) of any specific editor. If you've still got a thing about getting QG blocked or sanctioned or whatever, even after the effort failed just above, and you think his current behavior warrants it, then start another thread, but don't try to hijack this one. BMK (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Question If this passes, do people have an opinion on how long the sanctions should last? Presumably the topic should become less controversial with time as new and reliable studies come out, but I have no idea what that timeframe is. I think "indefinite" is kind of a default for this kind of stuff, but I thought it would be good to at least ask what people think about an expiration date. ~Adjwilley (talk) 00:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC) pinging User:HiDrNick 16:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd say six months would be the absolute minimum, but that a year would be more likely to be helpful in waiting for the research to catch up to the questions. BMK (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
• This may not be necessary to have proposed sanctions. This was an overreaction to the above threads IMO. We can try one month if there is consensus for the sanctions. I think three months would be the most. QuackGuru (talk) 04:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
• A year is the default in most cases, and given the duration of the dispute already I say we go with that. Guy (Help!) 09:38, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• So far there is no broad consensus for the community-imposed sanctions. As a compromise we can try the DS for a month. QuackGuru (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Not sure where you're getting that conclusion from. Right now, just on pure count, I see 14 supports and 8 opposes, which is 64% (63.63). In any case, if there is no consensus for community-based sanctions, as you contend, then there will be no community-based sanctions, not for a month, not for any amount of time. BMK (talk) 20:31, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose this without a sunset clause. (Note also that admins effectively have the ability to take these types of actions without DS.) All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 05:02, 22 March 2015 (UTC).
  

• True, but most admins are loathe to hand out topic bans etc. without the support of discretionary sanctions either from the community or from ArbCom. (Incidentally, 1 year of DS is a "sunset clause", so why isn't your vote "support - 1 year"?) BMK (talk) 08:47, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support the opposing position seems to be based on the fact that sanctions probably won't fix anything but the worst I can see them doing is not being used. They certainly won't make it worse. SPACKlick (talk) 10:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support Community authorized discretionary sanctions will allow any uninvolved administrator to topic ban an editor who is disrupting the e-cig article(s) without first seeking consensus here at ANI. More accurately, if this passes it shows that there already is consensus at ANI for such a topic ban. And of course if an admin misuses DS we have procedures in place for dealing with that. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:59, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment based on Bluerasberry's comment and Doc James' oppose, I wonder if the best alternative might be to full protect the article for a good long while, processing new edits through consensus on the talk page. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 07:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Electronic cigarette is already fully protected until March 30, but there's also Safety of electronic cigarettes and Legal status of electronic cigarettes to consider. Certainly these could be fully protected as well, but that puts the onus on admins to judge whether every suggested edit has consensus behind it. Surely it's better to allow free editing of these articles, and let admins sort out who is being disruptive from who is being helpful in their editing? BMK (talk) 10:08, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

(Involved editor) I would support long-term protection of at least the main article and possibly forks as an alternative to discretionary sanctions. We have recently had issues with a user managing to get full-protection removed, almost immediately making large-scale changes including 16 other edits in 2 hours. Then when protection was re-applied, immediately trying to have it removed again (in fact they successfully managed to get the expiry date moved forward to March 30th this time despite opposition from two other editors including myself). Such desperation to have protection removed clearly demonstrates an intention to do something that can't be done with protection instated, most likely grossly violate WP:CONSENSUS. So yes, I think there's a clear requirement for long-term full-protection. At the very least very close long-term monitoring by admins against consensus and edit-warring violations is required but that would not be as straightforward as protection.Levelledout (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Full protection is, generally speaking, a step to be avoided if at all possible, since it's inherently contrary to the Misplaced Pages ethos of free editing. It also essentially freezes the articles into their current states, as getting a consensus to add or subtract something through the protection is going to be very hard to do, and admins should not accept any suggested edit which does not have a talk page consensus behind it.

Again, I'm not sure why opponents of discretionary sanctions are trotting out other possible solutions when it hasn't been settled whether this one will be put into effect or not. Tallying !votes once more, I see 16 supports and 9 opposes, which means that 64% of the respondents here are in favor of community-imposed discretionary sanctions. That's not a landslide by any means, but it is a healthy supermajority in favor. BMK (talk) 20:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose discretionary sanctions. Too often cudgel for the maintenance of House Point of View... It takes two to tango and I expect the anti-e-cig advocates are every bit as tendentious as the routed pro-e-cig peeps... Carrite (talk) 17:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• And what about the third possible group, those editors who wish to keep the article neutral and supported by reliable sources in line with MEDRS? What do they do when the pros and the antis are duking it out, making it nest to impossible to edit the articles effectively? BMK (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support As written and how written (without any explicit sunset provision). Writing an explicit sunset provision only tells disruptive elements how long they have to wait before they can start being disruptive again. The language that this proposal was cribbed from was specifically designed to not have a sunset provision (i.e. indefinite in the same sense that we have indefinite blocks) because either the sanctions will fall into disuse and forgotten or a WikiHistorian will see that we still have the sanctions on the books and a simple consensus vote to revoke them can be accomplished at a later date when it's clear that the authorization has outlived it's purpose. As it stands right now the e-cig field is far too disruptive in it's current state to explicitly state when the sunset will take place. I'd rather have positive action to deprecate the sanctions than positive action necessary to maintain them. Hasteur (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Vaguely worded. Elohim55 (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC) Sockpuppet of a blocked user. Mike V • Talk 17:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• You are, of course, free to !vote whatever way you wish, for whatever reason you wish, but this:

  Proposed: The community authorizes discretionary sections for all articles related to electronic cigarettes, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working within this topic if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: page banning, topic banning, semi-protection, pending changes protection, or blocking any editor so warned. Sanctions may be appealed to the administrator who placed them, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Arbitration Committee.'

  is in no respect "vaguely worded." BMK (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support with or without sunset, but my preference would be without, with a later discussion to determine if they have served their purpose or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SarekOfVulcan (talk • contribs) 12:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Admins have enough tools to handle issues already; sanctions seem to promote additional drama more often. ScrapIronIV (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
• Multi purpose Support/Oppose/Neutral This !vote may be !added to whichever !tally gets this borefest off this page the soonest. By the time we've finished adding DS to anything anybody finds remotely controversial at all we may as well just make it global and have done with it. So I guess that's "oppose" really. When all you have is a hammer, hey, get a bigger hammer. Begoon  17:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The only thing that discretionary sanctions do is give more power and discretion to administrators, ability to topic ban, and prevent their actions from being reversed. The topic bans can be issued sparingly by the community. Admins can already block disruptive editors and given the psychological effect of topic bans, I'd prefer that they be given only in community consensus. Admins already have the tools to deal with the disruption in the topic area. If admins can't block disruptive editors without discretionary sanctions, what's the point in the first place? Tutelary (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose strongly From going through the endless discussion it appears to me that there are corporate interests editing the various e-sig pages, paid employees of companies attempting to subvert Misplaced Pages's WP:NPV guidelines strictly for financial reasons. Imposing sanctions against legitimate editors who are attempting to curb what looks to me to be industry-paid editors are doing to various e-sig articles would be caving in to corporate interests who are pushing their money-driven agenda, and violating a serious Misplaced Pages guideline. Damotclese (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Note. I restored this accidentally deleted comment which was originally posted by User:Damotclese. I deleted the archived discussion since it was unarchived. QuackGuru (talk) 19:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Per Robert McClenon. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:55, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
• To those who oppose can you lay out the downsides of allowing admins more flexibility? While there has been at least one paid editing issue there are NPOV issues on both sides, competence issues on both sides, IDHT, WP:CAUTIOUS and WP:DONTLIKEIT issues on both sides. Stopping some editors from making the page incomprehensible, repetitive and biased in either direction could allow the page to be balanced and the writing improved by those editors who can do so.

Corporate interest in e-cigs isn't one sided. Traditional NRT companies have put out some shockingly bad science anti-ecig just as much as e-cig companies have spun pro-ecig results from dubious data. If I were the dictator of wikipedia I would burn all the articles to the ground and put two editors and an admin in a locked sandbox (for preference probably Doc James, KDP and S Marshall) and have them start again from the ground up. SPACKlick (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Legal threats at Quora

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Erantan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a new account that appears to have edited as 76.11.94.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), is making legal and other threats against User:Steven Walling to file securities fraud complaints,, ruin Steven's career regarding weird claims about collusion between Wikimedia and Quora to manipulate stock prices or some other crazy talk. For what it's worth, they think I'm an alter ego of Steven Walling. I'm going to remove my warnings and notice to this user for WP:DFTT / DFTK reasons. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Blocked indef for making legal threats. Any administrator is free to remove or change the block without further consult with me. JodyB _talk 20:12, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Just idle curiosity, but why would they want to do that, JodyB? _Fortuna 20:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

You mean why would the person make these threats? Steven Walling • talk 21:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Steven Walling, no I just wondered why anyone would want to change the block after legal threats made. Thanks though! (BTW you don't seem too worried that your career is on the line....! lol)_Fortuna

22:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah avoiding COI controversy is why I haven't edited the Quora article at all since I was hired there. Apparently that wasn't enough for this person. Steven Walling • talk 22:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Now socking. --NeilN 21:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sock blocked, article semi'd. --NeilN 21:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi Because he could retract his statement and make changes that allow him to return. It just prevents someone from waiting around if I am offline. JodyB _talk 22:52, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Mass changes to Jewish educational Categories tonight

Please see . This user, who has just explained at his user talk page that s/he doesn't know what a rabbinic seminary is, has made mass changes tonight to a host of Jewish religious education Categories, with no discussion and no edit summaries. He or she has also deliberately emptied Categories in order to nominate them for speedy deletion for being empty. I have attempted to engage, but will now pull back as a) I don't wish to use my admin tools when I've disagreed with another user and b) I need to go to bed. I'd love to think that they're a good faith editor, contributing destructively, but honestly, the effects are so wide-ranging effects they may as well be a vandal. --Dweller (talk) 21:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• I have just explained my edits on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#Mass changes to Jewish educational Categories tonight. --Glovacki (talk) 21:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
• About me "not knowing what a rabbinic seminary is"... Page Rabbinical seminary redirect to Yeshiva and for them exist Category:Yeshivas. We can discuss coincide the notions of Rabbinical seminary and Yeshiva fully or not, but it does not matter for this case. --Glovacki (talk) 21:42, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• P. S. I also think that Rabbinical seminary should be redirecting not to Yeshiva, but to Jewish seminary. But better discuss it first. --Glovacki (talk) 21:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

2015 Checkuser and Oversight appointments: Candidates appointed

Following community consultation and voting. the Arbitration Committee is pleased to appoint the following users to the Functionary team.

• Callanecc (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is appointed as Checkuser and Oversighter to continue after his term on the Audit Subcommittee expires

• Mike V (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is appointed as Checkuser and Oversighter.

• Bbb23 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is appointed as a Checkuser.

• The following users are appointed as Oversighters:

• GB fan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Keilana (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Kelapstick (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Lankiveil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Ronhjones (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

• The Committee thanks J.delanoy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for his years of service as a Checkuser, who has recently resigned from the role.

The Committee would like to thank the community and all the candidates for bringing this process to a successful conclusion.

For the Arbitration Committee;

Courcelles (talk) 03:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this

2602:306:C5E4:A50:18E9:404E:FEF1:C9F5

• Admins, take note; refactoring of this case continues by the IP; I guess they don't realize every new refactoring builds the sock history. Nate • (chatter) 13:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• And now fully resolved; Elockid gave a 6m rangeblock to the IPV6 range used. Nate • (chatter) 14:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can I have a block on this obvious TheREALCableGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) sock, please? They have been persistently harassing me on my talk page for the last hour claiming they aren't an account of TRCG which I reverted sock contribs of and now just sent password resets for here and my Instagram account in an attempt to 'hack' me. Nate • (chatter) 04:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not TheREALCableGuy, I've never used that account name before and never created any accounts here! Plus what makes you think I'm gonna hack you. Stop telling lies about him and me now! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C5E4:A50:A1F7:C870:8659:603F (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because you need to hop new IP's when the one mentioned above is blocked for 12 hours...right. Anyways...was blocked for twelve hours, as seen above, a new IPV6 responded this way, and this can probably be closed since the worst issue, their spamming of my talk page, is done for a couple days at least thanks to RFP. Nate • (chatter) 16:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not, I'm not him. I'm not TheREALCableGuy, I'm just a fan of him who misses him! You're delusional. What is wrong with you? And that IP was not spamming you, he/she was telling you off! 2602:306:C5E4:A50:24C4:3350:69E0:D300 (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Legal Threat at Paris Violence

• User has clarified that they didn't intend to make any legal threat against Misplaced Pages. They were referring to the accusations mentioned in the article. The article content they commented on was indeed in clear violation of BLP and has been removed. The user has been unblocked by me. While this incident was an understandable miscommunication and no one's at fault, let's all remember that even if someone does make a legal threat, they still may have legitimate concerns that should be addressed. It appears we got too caught up on the perceived legal threat and didn't pay enough attention to the blatant BLP vio in the article. Swarm 17:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Orlik8 Made a legal threat here Weegeerunner (talk) 04:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Indef'ed by User:Orangemike. DMacks (talk) 06:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Civility Concerns re: Patroller Lukeno94 (with evidence)

Ongoing problem with anonymous editor

I've hesitated a few times about posting a request for help here, but I feel the editing/talk patterns of an anonymous editor on several of the articles pertaining to particle physics requires some attention. I'll cite 3 pages as examples: Bohr magneton, Neutron, and what prompts this request Neutron magnetic moment The trouble is documented, IMO, on the talk pages to these articles. The editor works under several anonymous IP addresses and it surely seems to me exploits this ambiguity (sock puppetry). On the magnetic moment page, IP nos 193.231.X.X, 5.15.X.X have been used. The talk page for neutron has other IP numbers; to good approximation all those anonymous IPs are one person, seems to me. On the neutron talk page ("Dimensional inconsistency") the editor denies it is one editor, which seems strikingly false. As you can see from the dialog there, the editor attempted a "word dump" of nonsensical gibberish in an attempt to keep some weasel words in a section from being removed. This is one reason why I post here - there seems little sense in responding/talking to the editor; that's like adding gas to the fire. The editor regularly pushes peculiar POVs, in particular he wants to challenge the (well accepted) quark model for hadrons. I cite the Bohr magneton article because it sure seems to me the editor attempted to rename this physical constant to the Bohr-Procopiu magneton, ignoring the Talk discussion from several editors about it. I recently changed back the article to greatly downplay this renaming effort. These IP addresses are all from Romania. The editor has been around WP for quite some time, not a novice, yet still seems to perceive this encyclopedia as a general forum for establishing or challenging scientific facts. On the Talk:James_Chadwick page this editor (c.f., neutron talk page for same 79.119.X.X IP) suggested that Chadwick was not the discoverer of the neutron; another theme of the editor, out-of-the-way people needing to be properly credited for discoveries long attributed to better-known people. The editor seems to edit in good faith, but he is an aggressive, if not abusive, editor. The editor refuses to open a proper account, though he has been requested to do so. (And I see the editor has just now reverted me again to include a bibliography entry in Romanian on the Neutron magnetic moment page.) Help? Thx, Bdushaw (talk) 06:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No need for this inflammatory or tendentious(?) noticeboard involvement. Bdushaw, familiarize yourself with WP:NONENG before stating that I reverted you again on using foreign languages (Romanian and Russian) sources that are to be cited.--5.15.185.197 (talk) 07:39, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I was not involved in the issue on the Bohr-Procopiu magneton (which I see is old stuff) issue mentioned by Bdushaw, who by the way, seems to have a bias against non-English scientists, including the biased comments against Dmitri Ivanenko.--5.15.185.197 (talk) 07:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Another remark is that user Bdushaw seems to have something against IP's from Romania.--5.15.185.197 (talk) 08:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I see another imputation to me: the suggestion that Chadwick was not the discoverer of neutron, which seems to be a twisting of aspects presented on that talk page which is attested in other languages Wikipedias on Chadwick.--5.15.185.197 (talk) 08:36, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Since I introduced this complaint, there has been a blossoming fight with the usual endless gibberish-logic on the Talk:Neutron_magnetic_moment page. All over a silly book in Romanian the editor wants to put on the Neutron_magnetic_moment page, against all rhyme or reason. It is this endless argument, time and time again, that is the reason for the post here. This behavior is not acceptable - it drives editors away (including me). When one hesitates about editing out of fear it might offend this anonymous editor, something is amiss. See also the User_talk:Jonathan_A_Jones page; Jones has recently valiantly tried to contribute, but has encountered the usual (abusive, IMO) nonsense. IMO the anonymous editor certainly exploits the multiple, constantly changing IPs to abuse the Misplaced Pages process; there are levels and levels of duplicity, seems to me. Bdushaw (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The lines above are Bdushaw's wishfull thinking. Bdushaw, if you don't like content suggestions proposed by the IPs, this is not a reason to obstruct the improvement of content by resisting the requests for adding details that helps to conceptual clarification.--5.15.29.207 (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth I agree with Bdushaw about the IP editor: a clear case of WP:IDONTHEAR. The various IPs are obviously all the same person (they all resolve to the same provider, and the similarities of style are crystal clear). Whether he's hopping deliberately or not is uncleatr to me, but he certainly seems to enjoy the ambiguity it provides. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

These are ridiculous aspects. Focus on improving the content, not on who is making the suggestions(the IPs whether the same or different person should not be discriminated). I think it is a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT the content suggestions.--5.15.29.207 (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) So, any action on this...? Seems concerting... --IJBall (talk) 04:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I notice that the implicated IP(s) is insensitive to the opinions and requests of others, is disruptive and writes much that is nonspecific and disparaging. This has a disruptive effect on the efforts of well-intentioned editors. This reaction on my talk page to a routine notification is completely out of place. Administrative sanction may be appropriate. —Quondum 04:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I was beginning to think this issue was winding down, and perhaps that was the end of it...but now we have this latest entry to the Neutron magnetic moment talk page: diff. This seems to me a laughable sock puppet. 193.231.X.X has been a contributor to the Neutron talk pages. I don't think I know enough about the mechanics of Misplaced Pages to be able to suggest a remedy. Bdushaw (talk) 09:43, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It is possible that this editor (who may or may not be the same person) will learn more of the interaction and style on WP, and settle down. Notice this edit series from the same a similar IP address as your diff where there is an apparent lack of understanding of the use of ref tags for references; this may be related to the insertion of links that are not directly used as references. —Quondum 20:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Possible disruptive vote-stacking and sock editing at AfD

Hi. I'd like some help on looking into a matter at this AfD. It was started by Buzzards-Watch Me Work. A few days after it was started, IP editor 164.106.2.242 posted a delete vote. This IP editor has little or no edits outside of this AfD. Infact, he only had 4 edits in the last 2 years, but somehow comes straight to the AfD. His IP address is in Northern Virginia, the same place where BWMW comes from, according to their userpage. There are more comments about this on the AfD. Thanks. Lugnuts 06:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

BMMW and the IP have used the same edit summaries on other article. Usually they update the results. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Those !votes would be ignored by the admin closing the AFD. §FreeRangeFrog 07:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks both. I'm not so much concerned about the outcome of the AfD, but the fact that it looks like an obvious attempt of a sock at work. Lugnuts 09:11, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone want to take a look into this? Thanks. Lugnuts 14:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

If you have sockpuppet concerns please file an SPI, I don't think there's conclusive enough evidence here for any immediate action. That aside, I've messaged UtherSRG because I don't understand why the AfD was closed as delete. Sam Walton (talk) 14:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Well an admin who is wrong is never going to admit it. Pretty poor outcome there TBH. I'll go with the pointless circus of SPI in anycase. Lugnuts 18:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

User continues to censor Murder of Selena

70.60.60.200 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) censored the sentence of a comparison of Hispanic and White American reactions to the Murder of Selena, which is sourced by several sources. The IP feels strongly against the notion of having any comments about a few members of a community that had a different opinion than that of another community; though looking at the sentence now it could have been worded differently to not have stereotyped White and Europeans as a whole. I have asked the IP directly on his talk page about the issue, he refused and undid my revert. I cannot revert or undo another of his edit so I won't violate the WP:3RR rule. Best, jona 14:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

This is not censorship. It is a content dispute where you and the IP disagree on what belongs in the article lead. Your use of rollback in your revert here was inappropriate. The IPs edits are not vandalism as defined at WP:VANDALISM and that should have been the only reason it was used in that instance. You need to go to the talk page and discuss the edits not just revert. -- GB fan 15:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the IP was removing an unsourced POV statement, and thus was correct in doing so. And if the OP here uses rollback that way again, it should be taken away. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Can't say I agree with your first point. Remember that content in the WP:LEAD generally mostly reflects what's in the article so doesn't necessarily need to be sourced itself. Most of the content that was removed seems to be in the body of the article and sourced. The wording may or may not be problematic, it may be helpful to repeat there source and there is still legitimate debate over whether it belongs in the LEAD, but calling it unsourced seems unfair. In terms of the more general point, I concur entirely with GB fan. Unless I'm missing something, there's no discussion in the talk page about this. Nil Einne (talk) 09:44, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Problems with User: Shivanshsinghrajpoot

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not sure where to report this. Shivanshsinghrajpoot (talk · contribs) has been disrupting articles on Indian rail (mostly by adding unsourced material in all caps, see here and here for examples), despite being told not to by Widr, Mjroots and Anthony Bradbury. The user has also made zero talkpage edits as well, although English is apparently not their native language. The user's edits, while likely done in good faith, are highly disruptive and are a chore to clean up after. It would be appreciated if someone could take a look at this user, and help sort things out. Thank you. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

As has been said on my talk page, this is looking like a competence issue. I'd like to try and work with this editor as Indian railway stations are a valid topic, but if he ain't going to co-operate then there's not much we can do other than an indef block. Mjroots (talk) 20:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the account was blocked by Anthony Bradbury. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Could do with some admin assistance.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Doing my rounds on huggle when I came across an edit to User:Doruk Babalık which redirected it to User:Sapiocrat. I am not sure if this is a legitimate alternative account, one of the most blatently obvious sock accounts I have ever seen or something else entirely. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The page should be deleted under CSD U2 because User:Doruk Babalık doesn't exist. Epic Genius (talk) 14:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what any of those words mean, but my Misplaced Pages signature links my name to User:Sapiocrat, and displays my name. Another user tried to link to my name in response, and used my displayed name, which did not resolve to User:Sapiocrat, so I added a redirect. If this was not okay, feel free to remove it. I would appreciate some advice on how to correctly form my wikipedia signature though, so that every user who wishes to link to me can do so easily. Doruk Babalık 14:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

So it's simply an alternative name for your account? --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 14:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Sapiocrat, it may be better if you just created an alternate account named User:Doruk Babalık. Epic Genius (talk) 14:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Epic Genius Okay, thank you. Still getting the hang of all this. Apologies. Should I do so after the page User:Doruk Babalık gets deleted? I gather I won't get mentions of notifications that way though. I'll just change my signature. Doruk Babalık 14:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll remove the CSD request now, if you can create the account. Epic Genius (talk) 15:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No worries, let it get deleted. Just changed my signature to display only my nickname. Sorry for all this trouble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sapiocrat (talk • contribs) 15:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I deleted it WP:G7 and WP:U2 based on the above statement. -- GB fan 15:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@User talk:Sapiocrat- just to let you know (sorry if you knew already) but under your 'preferences' page, you can change your signature with Wiki-markup whilst keeping your original username- so you can still have both if you want? _Fortuna 15:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive anonymous user (Portuguese) — Take Two

Abusive user continues evading blocks and disrupting Misplaced Pages. SLBedit (talk) 15:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Massive multi-party disruption at Syriac/Assyrian/Chaldean-related ethnic articles

Fellow admins: the situation of multi-party POV warring on Assyrian-related articles is out of control. Background info: this is about a group of minority populations in Syria and Iraq, whose diaspora communities are riven by deep-seated infighting between rival ethno-religious factions, regarding their preferred appellations and the preferred ancient peoples ("Assyrian", "Aramean", "Chaldean") upon whose alleged inheritance they build their claims of "identity". There have been constant petty naming wars ever since the beginnings of Misplaced Pages. It has always been the case that virtually every user who ever took an interest in editing the topic was a member of one of the rival factions and here to pursue their pet agenda; editing from all sides of this mess has been equally bad. In recent months the disruption has reached new heights. There have been at least three massive sockfarms fighting each other for several months. I just blocked half a dozen accounts the other day; new accounts and IPs sprang up immediately. Just yesterday I took great pains in explaining to all involved that a certain contentious quotation (about which they had all been edit-warring) was indeed demonstrably a fake (as one of the factions had been claiming) ; today I find the quote re-inserted into yet another article yet again by yet another new IP .

I need more eyes on all the articles involved, especially:

• Assyrian people
• Assyrian continuity
• Assyrian
• Terms for Syriac Christians
• Name of Syria
• Arameans
• Michael the Syrian

... but there are many others into which this mess has spilled over, basically any page related to this group, their name or their various ancient homelands.

I don't know what to do. There are no "good" versions to revert to, because whenever you remove one side's tendentious crap, you are only reinstating the equally tendentious crap of the others. Normally, I would ask for discretionary sanctions, but those will be of little use: DS arrangements are for protecting potentially constructive editors and giving them a safe space to work in by shutting the disruptive elements out – but here we have nothing but disruptive elements.

Unless others have better ideas how to deal with this, I'm thinking of applying the radical "Liancourt Rocks"-type strategy: stub all the affected articles down to a skeleton version or delete them outright, fully protect the lot of them for half a year, and allow gradual rebuilding only through edit requests to be vetted by uninvolved competent editors on the talkpage.

Ideas? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Why does the Liancourt Rocks page blank my screen???? Just curious. It doesn't now. Odd! _Fortuna 16:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

On the face of it this looks like a good strategy for certain intractable problem pages. I have a question. Could you give us a brief overview of how well the strategy worked on the Liancourt Rocks page? Has this strategy been used anywhere else? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Fut.Perf's Liancourt Rocks option and full protection sounds like a good idea, we'll just have to monitor the onslaught of edit requests but, at least the pages will begin to grow objectively. Also some kind of guideline for blocking repeated frivolous edit requests. Mlpearc (open channel) 17:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Liancourt Rocks-related articles have been on my watchlist for years and aside from brief flareups on talk pages, everything is quiet and stable now. --NeilN 20:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree that that is the right solution. Such disputes mirror off-Wiki ethnic and religious controversies, and will not be resolved until the off-wiki issues are as well. If ever. Coretheapple (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It is a mess. I've tried to follow some of the discussions and it seems like outside editors can't participate without them being falsely identified as being affiliated with one ethnic side or the other. It's like the concept of neutral editors is not accepted by the primary parties. And there is also talk about Misplaced Pages cabals/cliques influencing the articles. It all discourages uninvolved editors from jumping in and editing. Some of the sources are also tainted by bias. This area needs editors knowledgeable about the Middle East field who have thick skins and can avoid being provoked into disputes. Liz 23:11, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

As Lt. Ripley once said: Nuke'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Fully support the Liancourt option here. It will bring some sanity to a very problematic area. §FreeRangeFrog 23:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It's interesting how this totally unrelated dispute resembles, in a sense, the protracted dispute that is discussed in the "handling COI" discussion above. Different subject, similar issues. Coretheapple (talk) 23:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@Coretheapple: I was thinking the very same thing when first reading the above COI discussion. Just a note, for editors adding Fut.Perf. list to thier watch, please add Mosul. Mlpearc (open channel) 23:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and I'm not belittling the powerful views held on all sides in all these kinds of disputes. In fact, it's just because of the sincerity of such views that such disputes are so intractable.Coretheapple (talk) 01:53, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a obvious reason that the pages in this topic area need protection. Mlpearc (open channel) 02:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, folks, for this feedback so far. Based on this apparent consensus, I have begun with the protection and partially stubbing back (or reverting to old versions) of a few articles (starting with Assyrians/Syriacs in Sweden, which had been left with a completely nonsensical lead sentence ever since an edit-war in 2010, without any of the warriors ever noticing; I also deleted a long-standing POV fork of the same article at Assyrians in Sweden and removed some apparent source abuse at Name of Syria). Please note that in making these content edits and then imposing protection, I am WP:IAR'ing on our normal admin "involvement" procedures; I'm putting it on the record here that I believe this to be justified on the basis of the consensus here. If anybody has procedural objections, please let me know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

User: RGloucester's disruptive behavior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RGloucester has begun to behave destructively in the article Second Battle of Donetsk Airport (WP:DISRUPT, WP:EDITWAR). At first, RGloucester removed a constructive edit (wikilink to the Donetsk bus shelling article) of one user together with a vandal edit of another user. The constructive edit was made in the article after the vandal edit, so, at first glance, it was looked as a coincidence, that RGloucester removed the constructive edit too. Therefore, RGloucester was warned on his/her user talk page to not involve other users with their constructive edits in his/her edit war with vandal users, that he/she could use removal of vandal edits as an excuse for hidden removal of others' constructive edits. However, RGloucester ignored the warning, and waited a vandal edit to appear, then he/she removed the vandal edit together with the constructive edit again. As you can see, the constructive edit was made before the vandal edit, so it was not a coincidence. RGloucester has purposely removed the constructive edit even after the warning. Because I am not going to start an edit war with RGloucester, I am sincerely ask the administrators to warn RGloucester for his/her destructive behavor, admit that the edit is constructive (wikilink to to the Donetsk bus shelling article) and return it back in the article.--85.140.223.188 (talk) 18:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

This is very odd. I wasn't trying to revert the link, merely to get rid of the same rubbish blanking that I've been forced to revert for weeks. The link has already been restored. By the way, IP, who are you? RGloucester — ☎ 18:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right to ask, RG; it's a very procedurally detailed post for an inaugural edit (not counting one from seven years ago...) _Fortuna 18:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I assume you want a comma after "ask". As to the IP, there is a Moscow-based IP-hopper editing the article, which would account for things. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

He is not the only one edit warring, there are more than just 1 editor. Someone protect the page? SamuelDay1 (talk) 19:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring has now stopped. SamuelDay1 (talk) 03:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

'Competence is required' issues with User:Mishae

Mishae (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a long-term Wikipedian who started editing in 2009; he's been around for long enough that he should know, broadly-speaking, what to do (and what not to do), and how to engage with other users, and the broad-strokes idea of what policy permits and prohibits and where to go if you're not sure. Despite this, Mishae is consistently incapable of engaging with other users in a productive manner, and makes endless newbie-like mistakes that drain the energies of other good-faith contributors.

In February 2015, Mishae decided there was a policy that said it was preferable to have a dead link than a link to an archived version of a page, because that's what he thought "you can cite offline sources" meant. The same month, he made an edit that altered content that he marked as minor; when a user asked him to please mark such edits as major edits, he informed them that people are actively prohibited from templating experienced users, and kept leaving them messages over and over again until the user had to ask Mishae to leave. Mishae responded by opening up a thread on my talkpage in which he explained that, as the more experienced user, he should get to be the one templating people.

Mishae has also run into nearly endless copyright problems, and again demonstrated a refusal to admit fault when they occur; in December 2014 he was told an article of his was a copyright violation and tried to justify it by saying that it wasn't a copyright violation, it was close paraphrasing of a copyrighted source. This was followed by copyright violation cautions and notes on 24 February and 1 March of this year, and preceded by a warning on 18 December. That's four distinct articles in a 3 month span, with no real learning between their creations. That's while not understanding how references work despite having, again, been editing for six years.

The final straw, however, was how Mishae has been treating User:Kingofaces43. Mishae decided to remove the Wikiproject Insect tag from a large number of pages. Kingofaces43, seeing this, did exactly what we'd ask any user to do; they politely asked Mishae to stop and opened a discussion about it on the relevant talkpage so people could discuss what the best approach here, was. And then warned Mishae again, because while the discussion was ongoing, Mishae continued making the changes. And then a third time because, with the discussion still going on, and after two warnings, Mishae continued making the edits. At which point Mishae admitted his edits were potentially disruptive, called Kingofaces43 a troll, and asked me to step in - which I promptly did to explain that the edits were problematic, with Mishae taking away from that: "thank you! I'm glad my edits aren't vandalism".

I am, at this point, completely exhausted in dealing with Mishae, which I would mind less if he wasn't also draining energy from other users attempting to engage in good faith. There is a consistent pattern here; Mishae overestimates his own knowledge, patronises other users when they correct his mistakes, denies that they are mistakes, and aggressively insists that he is right even when it's clear to everyone else in the conversation that he is wrong. This is deeply taxing, and from a newcomer would be potentially understandable, but is not tolerable in someone who has been here for over half a decade. Mishae adds value to the encyclopedia - but when he is wrong, he sucks in a lot of time and energy dealing with it, and consistently fails to learn from his failures.

• I would like the review of this user and their contributions by other people, additional perspectives on their attitude and competency from people who have dealt with him (or who are coming to this for the first time, here), and I would like the ultimate question to be around making a competence block. This has gone on for long enough. Ironholds (talk) 23:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Mishae has been doing complex gnomish changes that are completely wrong-headed, as in the example of the Insects project. See User talk:Mishae#Wikiproject Insect and see if you can make heads or tails of his reasoning. Somehow, he needs to stop doing this kind of thing, but it may not be easy to persuade him. Unfortunately a competence block would be the obvious answer. EdJohnston (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• Per EdJohnston, a competence block may be necessary but I'd like to see what Mishae has to say. Blackmane (talk) 23:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
• Mishae should take temporary retirement from what he is currently doing, he should learn more, and avoid these circumstances. Per Blackmane, I would also hear Mishae. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 23:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• Mishae's editing was also questioned in the WP:PLANTS archives. He edits quite rapidly and the information added is often wrong, misleading, or hard to follow. Mishae has shown some willingness to change his behavior, but it took far too long to convince him that removing spaces and newline characters wasn't a worthwhile task and was actually disruptive (and now that I mention it, I noticed a few days ago that he was at it again, though in a less disruptive manner that left the structure intact, e.g. diff). He edited thousands of articles in that way, placing the infobox text on just a few lines which made it harder to edit them. After the AN/I discussion about this, he made little effort to retrace his steps and undo the damage. He is sometimes combative and has trouble communicating with other editors, often perceiving insults where there are none. I have seen many editors try and fail to facilitate discussions with other editors who come to his talk page to ask a question or make a suggestion -- they often burn out rather quickly. After so long and so many issues, I do not think that any amount of coaching will produce better edits or improve interactions with other editors. Mishae gets into trouble mostly when he's trying to perform a large number of gnomish edits. The only way I could see his continued participation in the project as a benefit to it would be a restriction in the number of edits he could make in one day, thus forcing him to focus on broader improvements to articles. Gnoming is certainly beneficial but not when done hastily and carelessly. I agree with other editors here that a competence block may be the only solution to prevent further disruption. Rkitko 00:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Before anything is done here I'd like to see what Mishae has to say. Caden 02:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• I see on his user page that Mishae has a box saying "This user is autistic". Not saying that's an excuse, but it could factor in his apparent inability to interact well with other people. Squinge (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

  Ah, and he also says "I'm autistic, and I have cerebral palsy as well". Squinge (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

  Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, but not too much. Autism could sometimes carry communication issues with it. Epic Genius (talk) 16:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• ...user boxes should not be treated as fact, that's right isn't it Caden? Cassianto 21:24, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Cass where did I say that? Anyway I thought it was understood that you were not going to follow me around anymore? Caden 21:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I shall go wherever I like and talk to whom I like. This unwritten rule of "not following you around" is understood by nobody other than you; get over yourself. Cassianto 22:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Keep it up Cass and it wont be long before you are blocked again for personal attacks or maybe this time it will be for harassing and stalking. God knows you have a big block log already. Guess it will just get bigger at the rate you are going, right? Caden 23:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I would like to thank everyone for taking time to discuss my issue. I understand that my behavior was disruptive and I am deeply sorry. (It was partly due to my condition.) Working on the project is an important part of my life and I would like to be helpful. I think that I should cut down my gnomish edits and focus on creating quality contents (3-4 a week). I'm also able to make contributions in archiving of dead links, with which I didn't have an issues, and even was awarded for it. I understand that everyone is very busy but it would help me if I could contact someone if problems arise.--Mishae (talk) 21:16, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd also like you to contribute productively, but the examples you pick don't say much about your willingness to understand what the problem is here. The problem is not the edits - the problem is the attitude you take when people try to talk to you about them. And the two examples you've chosen - quality content contributions and dead links - would be more meaningful if it wasn't for the fact that the quality content contributions are described in the very first message in this thread, as creating copyright problems, and the dead link work is surfaced as an example of the attitude you take when contradicted by individual editors. This is not giving me the impression that you grok the problem, here. Ironholds (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ironholds: At the very top of the thread you said that where to go if you're not sure. You know, I tried to invite user @Koavf: for a discussion on my talkpage, unfortunately he never replied. Back in 2014 I tried to ask user @Worm That Turned: (or was it @Kudpung:) for some guidance when it came to my comments, and got nothing in response. As of now Kudpung's status is busy, but when I tried to ask him back then, he was online. I also tried to reach out to @Ryan Vesey: but none of the above editors were available. As for copyright that one that I did in March 2015 was just a bot error, for which I shouldn't be blamed since it was bot reading reference posting as copyvio (I can't invent a link, can I)? As for the rest, yes I admit, it was my fault, but I asked a user for assistance and he helped me. I also would like to note that I never had an issue with a contributor about dead links. Please understand that I am trying to follow the rules and promise not to be confrontational in the future.--Mishae (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

...yes, you did. You got in a dispute with an editor because they kept adding links to an archive site you were unfamiliar with, and you decided that the policy around using offline sources meant deadlinks were preferable to archives you didn't know. If you can't remember it, it's, again, in the first message in this section. And, yes, you reach out a lot, but I note that this often comes after you have got in a dispute, with an attitude of "let me call in my older brother, he'll sort you out", and not to avoid disputes in the first place. Ironholds (talk) 03:45, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• Mishae's a tough case and perhaps I shouldn't be commenting on it because I've been away so long, but I really wonder if there's something that can be done. It seems like (and seemed like back when I was more familiar with the issues) that Mishae's main problem isn't his edits. His main problem is that he responds poorly to any questioning of his edits. The question I have is does he respond at all? The big problem that he had two years ago was that he consistently made edits where all he did was remove spaces. Is this still occurring? If not, it shows that he is at least responsive in some manner. Either way, WP:COMPETENCE is still an issue. Mishae has expressed a desire to make only substantial edits for 3-4 weeks. I think something like a topic ban from any namespace other than his user space could help solve this problem. Allow him to do nothing but create articles for a while and perhaps he'll focus more on creation and less on the gnomish edits that often result in problems. from I know we don't make punitive blocks, but in situations like these I think punitive blocks can be preventative. This was certainly the case with me, I was blocked for ten days and as a result came back as a productive editor. Perhaps one or both of these options could be a helpful short term solution. Further, we should be more clear with Mishae that further problems after this will result in a longer month to year long block or a ban. Ryan Vesey 00:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Hi @Ryan Vesey: I personally decided that I should focus on archiving and content creation/improvement (like major editing) rather then gnoming around (unless archiving is partly gnoming?). Perhaps WikiProject Insects was the final straw in my gnomish editing. I don't like the way that you propose topic ban, since when I did archiving I didn't got in any trouble and even was awarded. I can be trusted with my article creations but I need some guidance in creating copyvio free and grammatically good article (that's when I asked Ironholds, and got redirected to a different editor who helped me clean up copyvios). I once created a great article with @Animalparty:, and you know, I didn't have a single issue with that user. I also didn't got into any arguments with @EricEnfermero: when it came to creating Panos Kalnis article. So, as you can see, I am trying to improve gradually. Unfortunately different editors treat me differently: Some issue me a warning in such a tone that I accelerate. Is it something that I can try to work on? Yes, but I need someone to be present so that when I do get into an argument, I wont be alone. I do occasionally ask for help when conflict arises. Problem is, is that when I ask someone for assistance, I don't get it. I'm glad that you came back, and I am sorry that you see me like this. :( As a side note; I think topic bans are for vandals who engage too much into content addition/removal without consensus agreement. Correct me if I wrong though. :)--Mishae (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • As far as @Rkitko:'s diff goes, I was thanked via notification by @Benny White: for it. With that said, I think that user Rkitko should stop complaining about such minor occurrences. As a side joke, people who issue such concerns and do it often, end up being old faster than others. :) I hope that Rkitko will not hold a grudge against me for this joke.--Mishae (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • We had some difficulties on the Kalnis article. After I fixed some grammar and took out what I felt were a couple of non-notable/unencyclopedic assertions, you reverted and described the edit as "a complete vandalism" in the edit summary. We came to a good understanding and and I didn't hold any ongoing grudge, but I am surprised that you would use the Kalnis article as an example of strong teamwork. In general, academic BLPs can be a difficult area. There is confusing terminology in that area and any of us could make a mistake, so that makes it important to remain open to feedback from other editors. EricEnfermero (Talk) 02:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • @EricEnfermero: O.K. Perhaps I supposed to have said one of the strongest. I'm glad that you don't hold a grudge, and I need to point out that the reason why I called his edits as a complete vandalism was because I saw him removing over 500 bites of content. By removing such amount he gave me a reason to believe that vandalism have occurred, but after that we had peaceful discussion and issue got resolved. So, in short, some editors are easier for me to talk to then others. Plus, its not easy to communicate with editors when some of them are away and don't even have an alternative on how to reach them. I would like to ask if its possible for someone to give me one of the editors Skypes, which will benefit this project a lot. That way, if I will have an issue with someone, I can paste a link into Skype message and notify an editor for immediate response that way, even if he will be away.--Mishae (talk) 02:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • I hope you don't mind a comment from me, Mishae, but in the current dispute you had @Ironholds: trying to help you on your talk page while the argument was hot. But you didn't listen, you just carried on insisting you were right and argued with him too. Can you see why that might argue against your idea that having someone to turn to for help could solve your problems? Squinge (talk) 11:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mishae: For what it's worth, I haven't known Mishae to be a vandal or someone who is deliberately trying to make the encyclopedia worse. I don't know that I have the time to assist in this particular case, though. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• • • • • • @Ironholds: Where is the diff of this: In February 2015, Mishae decided there was a policy that said it was preferable to have a dead link than a link to an archived version of a page, because that's what he thought "you can cite offline sources" meant. I remember it differently. I remember that I removed dead link instead of archiving, but now I got more experience with it and am confident to continue my good editing. Please stop making statementsa which were one time-only and bring them up here, as I was some kind of a vandal that came to destroy this project. Even if it did happen, I do remember that there was an instance when I removed archived version probably because that archived link was dead, because I was confused, a simple nudge in the right direction did helped me. And now you are bringing it all up again.--Mishae (talk) 20:27, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Mishae, here's how you know I don't think you're a vandal:

1. I didn't just have you blocked at AIV;
2. I said, in the opening section you keep implying you've read, that you add value to the encyclopedia;
3. See (1, 2).

And yes, I misremembered; you did remove the dead link over using the archive. I'm not sure how that's much of an improvement. And yes, the nudge in the right direction helped you, and yes, I am bringing it up again, because the attitude you displayed in that conversation is part of a very wide pattern that's attested to by multiple users in this discussion. If you genuinely don't think that patterns are valuable in indicating a direction forward, I...really don't know what to say to you.

If what you needed was a simple nudge, I would nudge. I have nudge; I challenge anyone here to take a look at my talkpage archive and tell me I haven't consistently been providing nudges to you. But however many I provide, there are always more things to do, and they can always be traced to the same core problems: that despite vast editing experience, you consistently misunderstand or are ignorant of the most basic policy, and see no need to inform yourself before responding in disagreements, and that your attitude with other users is competitive, hierarchical and has a chilling effect on their contributions by making it actively unpleasant for them to interact during disagreements. Ironholds (talk) 20:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I am not saying that you called me a vandal, but users Rkitko, EdJohnston, and Blackmane brought up negative impression on me saying nothing positive. I'm not looking for encouragement, but I just feel that they feel that they are fluffy and nice and I am a monster who shouldn't be a part of this team. As for core problems, everyone have them. I could not think of a single editor who wouldn't be without core problems being present. For me its especially difficult. I know that a normal person can hide his core problems and pretend like nothing happened, but for me its harder. Having a disability is not an excuse, but living with it is not easy. Mind if I bring @LRD NO:, @RGloucester: and @Dkreisst: to this discussion? Also I had a constructive editing with user @Animalparty:: on an article called Gonzalo Giribet.--Mishae (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping to stay out of this ANI being in the thick of attempting to work with Mishae, but the situation doesn't look to be improving. Mishae is still engaging in sniping and battleground behavior , claiming WP:DONTLIKEIT when an editor disagrees with them instead of actually addressing what the issues are , it's not me it's you, etc. It doesn't appear this editor can edit in a collaborative manner when they want to do something that others disagree about and resorts to lashing out instead. WP:IDHT seems prevalent when actual questions are posed as to what a specific problem is and how to address it while this editor seems to have a narrow "This is what I want" type of and how dare you think otherwise focus instead.

I made it clear at fist I didn't want to seek a block for Mishae when I warned them awhile ago now , but given that there's actually a lot of history of this behavior with it persisting up to now even with warnings, I'm not sure if there are really any other options at this point. Topic bans or interaction bans wouldn't seem to be the right scope either. I'll support a block if others think that's the course to go to prevent this toxic atmosphere. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: I argue with you only because you don't hear it. I brought legitimate examples why the template should be removed, yet you continued to argue that my comments weren't relevant or can be solved the other way. Users @AshLin: and @Gug01: supported my idea, and yet you decided that it should be your way still. Moreover, he accused me of drama, and adversarial behavior, and yet how does he behave? Look at his support of a block in this discussion. To me, user Kingofaces43 is an editor who likes to support blocks on any editors that he finds undesirable. Tell me why you want this template to be present, right here, in this discussion? Because of entomologists that are blind and stupid in your opinion to find an insect they are looking for? Because that was one of your reasons. As for toxic atmosphere that was only between you and me. Maybe we just don't understand each other? Either way, you see it one way, I see it different way. I can be wrong too but not in this discussion. :)

I've heard you plenty fine, and I've been trying to work through the problems you've been bringing up, their validity, and how to address them calmly and by the book. Hearing does not mean accepting what someone argues for, but acknowledging why they brought it up and seeing how it needs to be addressed. Sometimes that's going to mean addressing the things you see as issues an entirely different way, or not seeing them as something that's a valid concern. You're still approaching this too hot-headed with the "weren't relevant" common as it seems you're still not getting it that some of the things you are bringing up aren't decisions to make at the current Wikiproject, but at the other one. We don't make decisions at one Wikiproject for another. Misinterpreting comments as some slight to you is not helping the situation. You're trying to fight your viewpoint in moreso than trying to actually work out what the actual problems. The rest of us are handling it respectfully regardless of what we think, but you are here because you are not doing that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mishae: & @Kingofaces43:. My POV is neither for or against either your stands. I keep the focus on the article rather than people. Imho articles of WikiProject Beetles which are definitely relevant to the parent WikiProject Insects should have both tags as both editors tacking Coleoptera and Insects overall will be improving those articles. In the matter of species articles, I hold the opinion that adding WikiProject tags may not tangibly help the article. So its an intermediate position though I had not meant it to be a via media. I was opining having been requested by Mishae. As such, if I do have to take a side, I stand with Kingofaces43's POV as adding Insect tags may improve the chances of the article for improvement. AshLin (talk) 07:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@AshLin: What a bald move! First I read your comment, and I assumed that your POV was neutral, now I am seeing you siding with him too. Why? Were you paid by him to be on his side? I'm very disappointed.--Mishae (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mishae:, I'm not on his side or your side but only on the side of what is good for the encyclopaedia. Please be WP:CIVIL. There is no excuse for your accusing me of being bribed by @Kingofaces43:. Desist from personal attacks or I'll start a separate ANI on your misbehaviour. AshLin (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I probably didn't knew it was a personal attack, sorry, but threats of separate ANI is not better for me or you. Unless you just want to punish me for every fart I make, and this is not good. I maybe overreacted, but you have no right to threaten me with another ANI, one is enough headache for me as it is.--Mishae (talk) 18:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps I should apologize to Kingofaces43 for my behavior, and hopefully a block wont follow. So, if its possible, please let Kingofaces43 know that I am sorry for any issues that I have caused. I will now wait patiently for decision.--Mishae (talk) 21:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

At this point I think the community really needs to weigh in. There's no doubt you're approaching this in a good faith manner, but actions done in good faith can still be disruptive. That's what this posting is primarily about, so apologizing, while helpful, isn't going to necessarily close this. We need to figure out out how to solve this problem by figuring out how to solve the persistent behavior issues to address the key point here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• Question for admins. Mishae is continuing to edit war by replacing tags on a massive number of articles. What's the best way to stop this edit warring when it's clear they won't listen? They've been warned about this on their talk page that they need to get consensus for these widespread changes at the Wikiproject first (which there isn't yet). They've ignored that warning on their talk page at least three times now. Is this kind of behavior something that WP:AIV is better suited for considering the number of edits the user is making? See: . I'm not sure where the best place is to address this more immediate issue while attempting to discuss general behavior or even reach a consensus at the Wikiproject. There aren't clear reverts since I just warned them to stop rather than attempting to revert all the mass changes, but would this be more appropriate at AN3? Mishae is going through a massive number of articles where I'm thinking some admin tool might be needed to restore to the previous versions rather than someone going through and clicking undo in each case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment User @Kingofaces43: still assumes that I am vandal. @Koavf: I'm still treating like a vandal and this editor above is even trying to convince the admins to block me even if I contribute constructively and not violating 3RR rule! I'm shocked of accusation of edit warring too, and would like to ask admins to block the above accuser to participate in this debate!--Mishae (talk) 03:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, I'm not calling you edits vandalism, but disruptive the way you are doing them. I mentioned the vandalism board because they often deal with mass edits done by users. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• • • @Mishae: I'm making this comment as an entirely uninvolved editor. I hope you understand what I am going to say. The issue isn't vandalism. If people are still using that word in the past few minutes, I apologize for them. It is not evident you are intending to harm Misplaced Pages. Still, good-faith edits can still be unproductive. The issue here, as I see it, is that the results of your actions (rather than the intent) is highly problematic. Multiple people are telling you "slow down and stop doing XXXX" If you keep doing XXXX, that's a problem, even if you mean well. When people say "Maybe you should stop doing that because you aren't doing it right", your best course of action is to listen to them and stop doing whatever it is you were doing wrong. The issue is not vandalism, so defending yourself against that is a non-starter: you wouldn't be blocked for vandalism per se, because this isn't a vandalism issue. However, saying that doesn't mean you won't be blocked. There's other reasons to be blocked besides vandalism and 3RR. You can also be blocked for repeatedly ignoring the good faith requests of others to stop some pattern of editing and discuss before continuing. When people say "Hey there, slow down because I think you're doing it wrong", and you just ignore them, that's also not good. Please listen to these other editors when they ask you to stop doing something, and politely ask them back why they wanted you to stop. They'll explain what you did wrong, and so long as you don't do it wrong again, we'll have no further problems. The issue here is that you've been told exactly that numerous times, and you simply ignore people and keep right on plowing through like a bull in a china shop. You need to heed when other people ask you to talk about things before continuing. Refusing to discuss the problems with your own editing is a still a major problem, even if it isn't vandalism. --Jayron32 04:06, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
      • @Mishae: You're treating me as a vandal? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:23, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
        • @Koavf: No. Why are you asking that?--Mishae (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
          • @Jayron32: and Koavf: I first would like to thank you both for understanding my condition. Since my condition prohibits me to understand stop or else such as explanation as you provided do help me a lot. I do however think that my edits were not in violation because Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules states that if a rule prevents you from improving an encyclopedia then ignore it. Meantime, Misplaced Pages:You Can't Follow All The Rules, All The Time states that It's a good time to apply the WP:Ignore all rules policy and focus on how the proposed change makes the article better regardless of what the rules say. And that was exactly what I did at WikiProject Insets talkpage. Yet despite numerous attempts only 7 editors showed up for discussion 3 of which said that they are against the change, 2 (including me) were in support, and the rest undecided. I proposed the idea to do a vote. That never happened (probably not yet).--Mishae (talk) 04:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
            • I find that statement confusing. "Stop or else" is a pretty unambiguous request. It does not need to be parsed for deeper meaning. Unlike the long, rambling diatribes I tend to write, if people say simple "Stop", then I don't see where that would be confusing. Simple statements like that should be more likely to generate a reaction from you, and not less. If you refuse to respond to simple, unambiguous requests, why would we think that more nuanced discussions would be within your ability to comprehend? Honestly, if the easy stuff doesn't get your attention, the more subtle, nuanced, longer discussions would not strike me as even worthwhile. Please also read WP:NOTTHERAPY. This encyclopedia doesn't exist to provide an outlet for any "condition". We're here to build articles, and while the community does have a tolerance for new users learning the ropes, ultimately the end results of your actions are all that matters. It matters not whether your bad editing is due to intent or inability, at some point the community is going to lose patience. "Conditions" don't make Misplaced Pages articles better. I have no idea what condition you have, and if I knew, It wouldn't change one iota of how I feel you should be treated. Misplaced Pages is about results, and whether your lack of good results is due to intent or lack of ability to produce them, matters not. Your condition may get you some bit of concessions from other aspects of your life, whether it is your schooling or your employer, but this is a volunteer service with an expressed mission, not a service with paid therapeutic staff who have the means to deal with "conditions." Whatever condition you have, I don't envy you for it, and if it causes you any amount of problems in your life, I can pray for that to cease. But it matters not if you simply can't produce good results after reasonable allowances for learning the rules around here. That's what WP:CIR means: ultimately, we need you to be able to learn to follow simple behavioral expectations. In the end it doesn't matter why you are, or aren't, following them. People are giving you clear, unambiguous instructions on how to do so. If you ignore them, you have nothing to blame except your own choices. (after you added additional text to your comment) Furthermore, IAR doesn't mean "do whatever you want" It says "If a rule prevents you from improving the encyclopedia. People told you directly your actions weren't improving the encyclopedia. If you continue doing whatever you were doing, that's not ignoring rules. That's just being disruptive. --Jayron32 04:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
              • @Jayron32: How about you will stop tossing WP:NOTTHERAPY around here. I'm not saying that because I have a condition I can do whatever I want, I mentioned it because this is what prevents in communicating with people in general, including here. Yet, I would like to contribute, but seeing that majority of editors against me because of my disability (and I need to shut up about it too), are seeing me as a disruptive editor simply because I have difficulty communicating, makes me wonder if contributions are worthwhile to this site? I'm seeing that many editors live this project for various reasons, and new editors are hard to come by especially if you will continue to treat all of the editors like scum. This project was rewarding, and would have been more beneficial if not for this discrimination.--Mishae (talk) 05:27, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
                • Thank you for self-editing your original comment, Mishae. I'll not drag you over the coals for what you had originally said, which was beyond-the-pale. Still, not a single person is discriminating against you. Not one. Discrimination means we're treating you differently than we'd treat any other editor. We've not done that at all. We've given you due diligence, and indeed have spent an inordinate effort coddling you and explaining to you how to fix the problems you've been having. If saying "Hey' you should really listen when others say you may be doing something wrong" is discrimination, then you've just redefined that word in ways that I have never seen before, and we have nothing further to discuss, given that we clearly don't speak the same language. Vaya con dios, my friend, because no one here is apparently capable of helping you. --Jayron32 05:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jayron32: Firstly, I don't speak Spanish. Second, I didn't say that "Hey' you should really listen when others say you may be doing something wrong" is discrimination. I said that throwing WP:THERAPY at me was an insult. By doing that you are shutting my mouth and that's not nice for such a project as this. I assumed that Misplaced Pages will different then most, but I guess I was wrong. I donated thousands of articles only to be insulted by numerous editors left and right. I wont be surprised if this project will one day cease to exist, just because everyone is focused on blocks rather then content. Projects that treat their editors with blocks are no better then Nazi Germany, and that's my opinion. Yes, despite that feeling I found a few good friends, but majority of the community is just an angry mob. I personally feel sorry for @Jimbo Wales: who I thought is responsible for the project but it turned out that he is just a money grabber, a cash cow, whom I tried to politely intervene when no admin was around. If a founder is not responding, this is not a community, this is Donbass an anarchic state which probably just like this project will cease to exist. Again, I am sorry for everything, and I am sorry that editors wasted so much time on something that will never be acknowledged by future generations.--Mishae (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Given the longterm evidence and the frustration of editors who have tried to engage with the editor, I'd say that a time-out (block) for reflection, of considerable length, is in order -- so that the editor learns to hear and respond. Sometimes the only cure for a long-term intransigent case of WP:IDHT is enforced longterm time away from the project. When they are allowed to return, then can see if the behavior persists or if they have learned to listen to and heed other editors and follow wiki protocols and gain consensus, etc. This seems to be a case of heedless headlong repeated disruptive behavior (mixed in with some content creation). Other people have attempted to address and resolve the problem behaviors in various instances and by other means, and it hasn't worked. Now needs the WP:CIR enforcement until corrected. Softlavender (talk)
  • @Softlavender: I will go on vacation in the end of April. The problem is is that Misplaced Pages have so many rules and guidelines that I just use Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules most of the time, because in my opinion it is applied to my edits. If its not, then for what it is used?--Mishae (talk) 04:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

"The problem is is that Misplaced Pages have so many rules and guidelines that I just use Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules most of the time, because in my opinion it is applied to my edits. If its not, then for what it is used?" This is exactly why you should be blocked for WP:CIR. ADMINS: Now that we have a blatant admission that the user has no plans to either listen (much less respond) to other editors' input or to learn and/or abide by Misplaced Pages's policies, could we please get an indef WP:CIR block of this user (with WP:STANDARDOFFER)? Softlavender (talk) 05:37, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Softlavender: Your screaming for a block is of no good intention. It sounds like I can't say anything. I need to assume that being normal in this case is being assertive and humiliating. I think Misplaced Pages is a site in disguise. It pretends to be a site that everyone can edit, yet everyone who edits it get blocked. It pretends to be a site that is inclusionistic, yet it bans every undesired editor and even shuts his mouth if problem arises. The founder of the project is not responsive either.--Mishae (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I overreacted with my above statements. What I was trying to say that people should take in considerations my good edits and I don't like when people scream for indefinite blocks without reading over my contributions. I wrote 3000 articles for this project, so I am definitely not a vandal that should be blocked indefinitely. I hope I will be forgiven.--Mishae (talk) 18:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Mishae: I misread this: "@Koavf: I'm still treating like a vandal..." I guess what you're saying is, "Koavf, I'm still being treated like a vandal". —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:53, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Seems a shame that we have an editor anxious to contribute to the project, but does so in such a way that the results become a time-sink for other editors and, thus, a net negative for the project. I understand the CIR concerns, and maybe a block will be needed to make the point to Mishae that he really needs to listen and understand the advice people are offering. I honestly hope it need not come to that. Mishae, I realize that you may have disabilities which make it more difficult for you to communicate, but please try not to respond to other editors with hostility – most of the people commenting here are genuinely trying to help you, and to find a way for you to continue contributing to the project in a way that keeps your positive contributions, but eliminates (or at least minimizes) the negative side effects. Maybe someone(s) would be kind enough to offer to be a mentor to Mishae, or we could institute something akin to ARBCOM discretionary sanctions, whereby short slow–down blocks could be easily imposed on this user as needed. I think he at least deserves a little more WP:ROPE before an indef, but the fact he's continued to make the WikiProject Beetle for WikiProject Insect substitution makes me wonder why he wont stop digging. I dunno, the whole thing just makes me sad. Mojoworker (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Mojoworker: Its a shame that over the whole 15 years Misplaced Pages have not developed a single help line for such folks like who want to contribute here, but get misunderstood. Only after a specific editor with condition is being called vandal or troll or whatever unjustified name there is, and only after an AN/I discussion, do some editors realize what they have done. But frankly, majority of times they don't even feel sympathy or guilt if such editors get in trouble. Misplaced Pages is a good project, but it would have been better if editors would help such folks get on their feet rather than tossing WP:THERAPY. I'm not as problematic as people here assume me to be: I write and edit many articles (mostly archiving). And so far was awarded 20 awards for article creations, archiving, and welcoming of new users. I also used to have mentor who was @Koavf:. Unfortunately when trouble used to arrive, he was not there to help me, and he even don't have time for me now, despite coming back this April for his Justin Knapp day.--Mishae (talk) 23:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Block proposal

This has gone on long enough. The issues with Mishae are raised clearly above, and demonstrated further by this thread; while the subject of an AN/I discussion about your competence, it's a really bad idea to accuse other users of being bribed to disagree with you and perpetuate the edits that you have been repeatedly told are disruptive.

Mishae's response has been the aforementioned accusations and disruptive edits, and to state that his condition as an autistic person means that he is incapable of understanding "stop or else", and that the volume of rules on Misplaced Pages means he actively ignores them rather than read them.

I propose that:

1. Mishae be banned from editing Misplaced Pages for 1 months;
2. After this period, he should be allowed to return in an unrestricted fashion;
3. If the behaviour that has necessitated this thread continues to make itself known, we can discuss more indefinite sanctions.

I am sympathetic to the condition, and have myself had shrinks debate (in my younger years) whether I fit somewhere on the spectrum - but if it's an active block on understanding "please don't do this", well, that's a competence issue. And I am appreciative of Mishae's many contributions to the encyclopedia, but a large number of contributions does not permit someone to act as a drain on the enthusiasm and mindset of others without consequence. Ironholds (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• I (obviously) support this ban. Ironholds (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• I would support a block, if that gets Mishae to engage in productive discussion, but 6 months seems excessive. He's been blocked several times, but looks like 48 hours was the longest and that was back in 2013 (a couple of indefs since then were reversed in about 15 minutes each). I'm hopeful that something like one or two weeks would be enough for him to reflect on the advice that's been offered him and take it to heart, get on the WP:CLUETRAIN, and cease lame IAR type arguments that fit his preferred outcome. I'd support a provision for a quick jump to the 6 month ban if problematic behavior continues. As I said above, the whole thing makes me sad. Mojoworker (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

  1 month? Ironholds (talk) 19:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose this ban because Ironholds did not disclose the fact that Kingofspades was not exactly an angel towards Mishae. Calling Mishae a vandal more than once was rude and I understand how that would make any editor unhappy. It should have been mentioned by Ironholds in this thread but it wasnt. I also get a bad vibe from the whole thing and therefore I oppose. Caden 19:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, I linked the diff in which the vandalism comment came up, and made mention of it. I'm not really getting the nature of your oppose, I'm afraid; this is not to do with that specific example, it is to do with a broader pattern of behaviour that is extensively documented here, both through diffs and the nature of Mishae's responses. Can you expand on what you mean by "bad vibe"? Ironholds (talk) 19:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Where exactly in this thread here did you mention that Kingoffaces was rude to Mishae? The link you gave doesnt show you saying that. Caden 20:32, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

...no, the link is a link to the diff of Kingoffaces referencing vandalism. As my message says. Ironholds (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay, once again, where in this ANI report that you filed do you mention that kingoffaces was rude or unkind or uncivil or whatever towards mishae? Your dif is a dif posted by kingoffaces that does not answer my question about you. Caden 20:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't, but then, I suspect you know that. I probably should've listed it, yes, but I have some expectation that people will do research prior to making decisions about users' editing permissions, so... I'd still like to know what you think of the rest of the situation, or what you mean by "bad vibe", if you've got the time. Ironholds (talk) 21:29, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah you should of listed it on ANI but you chose not to. Because of that I oppose. What I mean by a bad vibe is based on a gut feeling. I never ignore it and always listen to it. Caden 21:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it's just telling you that it's time to eat. BMK (talk) 22:17, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Sarcastic Ken? Now, you know what you can do with that, right? Caden 22:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Ummmm.... sauté it in a little butter and serve it with a fresh green salad? BMK (talk) 22:53, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Whatever Barbie. Time to dye that fake hair of yours brown and drop the dumb blonde act. Caden 23:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't actually address any of the rest of the ANI post, but alright. I'll remember that for the future; "any oversight which could've been corrected by the objecting user at any point in a multi-day discussion should instead be held in reserve as a rationale to oppose, rather than being used to actually inform the conversation".Ironholds (talk) 22:20, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

If you could take the time to say on ANI that Mishae called kingoffaces a "troll" well then you could of taken the time to say that kingoffaces was basically calling him a vandal. Keeping things to make one editor look better than another is never a good idea. Thats what you did here as far as i'm concerned. Caden 22:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I haven't ever called Mishae a vandal. I've referenced that some could consider such widespread edits without consensus after repeated warnings vandalism-like (needing the same tools to address the large number of edits, etc.), so my warnings were intended to alert them to that. I've been pretty respectful during the whole process while tolerating a lot of incivility. I can't pick out anything where I would specifically be unkind or rude in my posts, but there is also a difference between one user being rude and another taking offense. The degree at which the latter is occurring here seems to be the primary issue. If an editor can't approach another civilly about an issue without backlash like this, it's a problem. I have been considering the behavior highly disruptive though. It's a very strange case that is not vandalism, but my asking about the vandalism noticeboard was related to how to deal with the widespread edits since those folks deal with that in actual vandalism cases as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

You didnt need to say it. You referencing it said it for you. It speaks volumes and it left Mishae believing you were calling him a vandal and that's the impression I got too. My mind is made up and it aint changing. I still oppose. Caden 22:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support (uninvolved non admin) A month off to learn more of the rules and procedures sounds about right. If Mishae could find a mentor perhaps the block can be lifted. But that would take Mishae agreeing to follow what the mentor said. AlbinoFerret 20:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

  I'm the one who's been mentoring him, and I opened the discussion :/. Ironholds (talk) 21:29, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support block of at least one month; more if the behaviors persist. The user shows no sign that they understand they have done anything wrong or that they will change their ways -- this cannot be allowed to persist. It seems the only way forward is a block of at least one month. If that doesn't have an effect, then an indef block with WP:STANDARDOFFER. Softlavender (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Frankly, a block for a month will turn out to be useless, as this editor is obviously incapable of understanding the rules of this place, and the social mechanisms that make it (barely) work. He will ultimately have to be indef blocked per WP:CIR. However, in the spirit of WP:AGF and WP:ROPE (a somewhat ironic combination), a block for a month is a reasonable first step. BMK (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree so too to these terms. One month will be enough for me to read and understand basic stuff, plus I really needed a break, and should have asked for selfblock instead of this.--Mishae (talk) 23:03, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge

A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can someone tell him to not remove people's talkpage comments just because he thinks it's a BLP violation?

I reverted his asshole move and added a citation showing the problem with Curry's lack of understanding of statistics in that regard.

jps (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that you issued a blanket putdown of a living person, I'd say Quest was right in removing it. BLP violations are not allowed on talk pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but WP:BLPTALK seems to say that it applies to unsourced or poorly sourced claims. Are you saying my source isn't good? jps (talk) 01:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, weren't you banned from ANI, Bugs? jps (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

No, he wasn't. BMK (talk) 02:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Shame, that. jps (talk) 02:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

A year or two ago, I was asked to cut back here, which I have. You, I've never heard of before, and given your gratuitous attack, I'd just as soon it had stayed that way. As to the actual issue, it was unsourced, i.e. no better than one editor's personal opinion. If he's provided a valid source, that could be different. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@Bugs: He was "Science Apologist" (and a bunch of other names, not all of which are on this list, apparently. BMK (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I do recall that user ID, though I don't recall being on his enemies list. I'll just take it as an April 1 joke. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Has Misplaced Pages really fallen so low as to say that editors cannot add opinions about living people to talkpages unless they're positive? Even if these opinions are verifiably held by reliable sources and they are directly relevant to issues of accuracy and fact associated with claims. On the talkpage? Has BLP zealotry become the orthodox faith of this website? jps (talk) 12:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It was unsourced. If you've sourced it now, you're on firmer ground. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

What BLP violation? Caden 02:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. It's one thing to say "X is a child molester" or to post unverified blog material alleging that, and another to say "X doesn't understand Y." I see no BLP issue here. This looks more like an effort to censor discussion. Refactoring talk pages should be done with caution. Coretheapple (talk) 02:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah, that's an unsourced negative statement about a living person, absolutely a WP:BLP violation. Don't call people assholes who are enforcing policy. Actually, don't do that at all. Ivanvector (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. Discussion of sources would be totally crippled if people questioning sources were constantly being refactored on the basis of trumped-up BLP issues. Coretheapple (talk) 02:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I see no BLP violation here, but I can see how it could be perceived as such. Mlpearc (open channel) 03:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Is this one of the April Fool's threads? I think I'm pretty strict on BLP issues, and criticizing the quality of someone's scholarship is not a BLP violation. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It certainly is a violation, when it's done without a source. The refactoring was proper. When it was added back with a source, that was also fine. Ivanvector (talk) 12:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you serious? This is not an article. This is a talk page. jps (talk) 13:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Let's do a little experiment: "Tony Abbot has said stupid things." Is that a BLP violation?

Now: "Tony Abbot has said stupid things. " Is that now suddenly NOT a BLP violation?

Do you see the silliness of what your position is? (Is that a BLP violation against Ivanvector since I didn't cite a source that said that "Ivanvector says silly things"?) Sheesh!

jps (talk) 14:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict): Ok but While "x says silly things" is not a BLP violation. "SPACKlick is incompetent at his job", "SPACKlick is unqualified for his job" or "SPACKlick doesn't understand something he earns money claiming skill at" is closer to the mark and should be blanked if remotely controversial (guess this could count as evidence for some of my claims, I'm at my job right now arguing pedantries of policy on wikipedia) it should be blanked pending source. SPACKlick (talk) 14:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

"If *remotely* controversial"? I can understand that argument for articlespace which are visible to Google and the like, but a talkpage? Seriously, what possible reasons for that are there? Is a comment on a Misplaced Pages talkpage in context of a broader discussion really what we should be policing in such a fashion? jps (talk) 14:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that there's a big difference between a talk page and a wikipedia article. No doubt it was potentially offensive, but I can think of many worse things that have been said about real people on talk pages, and if we were to set out to remove even 1% of them, it would be very difficult to operate. It does look to me like the comment was removed in an attempt to win the argument by censoring the opposition.Deb (talk) 14:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I do think that talk pages of BLPs on occasion need to be refactored and even oversighted but only in clearcut instances. In the past I have seen situations in which BLP has been used in very much this fashion, as a cudgel, abusing and twisting the purpose of BLP. Coretheapple (talk) 14:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

What cudgel you blank the comment <Courtesy blanked possible BLP Violation pending source> If it's valid comment a source can be found if not it remains blanked. That way wikipedia retains no liability for accidental libel. Where's the real harm in a slightly cautious approach? SPACKlick (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Okay, perhaps I'm taking a very literal and blunt interpretation of the policy, but it does say that it applies everywhere on Misplaced Pages (which includes user pages, talk pages, drafts, etc. that are not normally reader-accessible) - it's the first sentence of the policy. Any statement about a living person that is contentious must be backed up by a reliable source wherever it appears. If someone reverted then it's contentious. I don't see how this hampers discussion at all: if someone posts a source to a talk page so that editors can discuss its meaning and proper place in the article, there shouldn't be any reason to revert, unless someone takes an unduly contentious interpretation of the source or blatantly misrepresents it. While I agree it seems that AQ4K did so under the veil of the policy in order to censor their opponent, they were technically correct. But that brings to mind wikilaywering and is disruptive in and of itself.

Also, according to how I interpret the policy, calling my position silly is not a BLP violation because you attacked my position, not me personally; it falls under WP:V but not WP:BLP. Saying that I say silly things would violate the policy, but that statement is neither contentious nor unverifiable. Ivanvector (talk) 15:21, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Not having to crystal-ball and dig through history what the editor actually said, perhaps? Avoiding subjective reasoning on border cases, which leads to bad blood and disruption, just as in this case? Yeah, egregious BLP violations should be blanked, but this one does not even come close. It would be impossible to even discuss many things if this kind of BLP zealotry is applied (and, apparently in this case, abused). The same principle as for WP:RUC should be applied: one should have no business in editing substance in other people's talk page comments, except in the worst cases. No such user (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Besides, if we're taking "very literal" interpretations: WP:BLPTALK says Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed (bold mine). Jps's remark was obviously aimed at making a content choice, i.e. suitability of the source. While his choice of words was slightly too blunt, making an opinion does not come close to a libel. No such user (talk) 15:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I accept your point regarding WP:BLPTALK and I'll consider this in the future. However, publishing a false statement intended to bring disrepute on the subject of it is basically the definition of libel. Jps didn't say "in my opinion ..." (and shouldn't), they stated "it's well understood that ...". Personally, I would not have reverted that statement, but not being familiar with the topic I would have asked for a source for that statement. Ivanvector (talk) 15:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

But reading the discussion, it's plain that the purpose was to make content choices. BLPTALK definitely is not to be abused but it wasn't in this instance. Coretheapple (talk) 15:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for a community ban on User:Sandbox for user warnings.

First warned in 2008 , this user is a persistent threat to the encyclopedia. Racking up hundreds, even thousands of warnings over 7 entire years of vandalism, User:Sandbox for user warnings needs to be immediately community banned for life. As you can see at Special:Contributions/Sandbox for user warnings, this editor is a vandalism only account, with absolutely zero productive edits to mainspace, while having hundreds of warnings! Ban this editor immediately, as User:Sandbox for user warnings has done absolutely nothing worthwhile for the encyclopedia. Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 02:16, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't these jokes ever get old? --Jayron32 02:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• I'd have piped it like this: Jimbo Wales. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I can't tell you how many times I've had to warn this user to stop warning users. I have also had to warn other users to stop warning this user to stop warning users. bd2412 T 03:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I'm confused; the user had warnings on his/her talk page as recently as yesterday, but his/her contribution history shows no edits since 2008. Has s/he been editing under a different account or something? Erpert 06:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Judging from the user's talk page, I can't think of a Misplaced Pages policy this user hasn't broken multiple times, just by existing... --Guy Macon (talk) 08:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose and propose closing this request immediately. This is just a joke that no one is going to believe. McDonald of Kindness 19:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• April Fool's is over. Please, next year, do something more creative like filing a RfA for Jimbo Wheels or nominating some high-traffic article for deletion. Epic Genius (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Qewr4231

This is the second time I'm bringing Qewr4231 to ANI. The first time I brought him is here, but the user was brought to ANI in 2010 for basically the same stuff: crusading against the International Churches of Christ. The user is a self-proclaimed former member of the Kip McKean church(es). He has been on a mission, since at least 2010, to add content to the article about the alleged cult status of the church and derivative churches. This might be a reasonable endeavor, except the user has had tremendous difficulty understanding numerous explanations of what constitutes a reliable source, he has been resistant to any idea contrary to his own POV, he has dominated talk pages related to this subject with lengthy, often incoherent, and tangential diatribes, more recently dumping a litany of links, and he seems more interested in soapboxing than actually pitching constructive changes consistent with existing editing standards. As the most recent "final straw" the user made this edit where he finds it suitable to out McKean's place of residence by linking to a real estate site that basically outs McKean's home address, apparently unaware that there might be privacy considerations for living persons. I've attempted to get other eyes on the articles from WikiProject Christianity for impartial participation from WikiProject Christianity but have not had any success. I'm at the point where I think a topic ban is the way to go. The pages typically affected are Talk:International Churches of Christ, Talk:Kip McKean, Talk:International Christian Church. The user has taken to crossposting the same general content to these pages and using the discussion pages as sandboxes or something. It is worth poking through the archives as well for scope. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Links: Qewr4231 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (talk) 03:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I participated in editing the Kip Mckean page. I added information about where Kip Mckean lives. Kip Mckean lives in a $650,000 condo in an expensive part of Los Angeles. I used two reliable sources. Source #1 proves that Kip Mckean owns a $650,000 condo Source #2 is also a reliable source. This is the company that sells and manages the condos Qewr4231 (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Kip Mckean is not a private figure. Kip Mckean is a public figure with a public website: www.kipmckean.com. I was merely adding information about Kip Mckean that is public information. Anyone can look up these records if they want to. They are public records. I'm not giving out private information. I'm giving out information that is public and available for anyone to look up and view. Qewr4231 (talk) 12:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The condo management association is a public website that anyone can view . The information from Los Angeles Block Shopper is a public records website that anyone can view and use to search for properties . These are public websites. Qewr4231 (talk) 12:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages can you please get Cyphoidbomb to stop harassing me? Qewr4231 (talk) 12:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment. Quite apart from clear violation of WP:BLPPRIVACY, the first cite does not show an unambiguous reference to Kip McKean, and the second demonstrates WP:SYNTHESIS. And given Qewr4231's past edits it's also pretty clearly a case of WP:SPA and WP:SOAP. --Escape Orbit 16:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I will additionally note that in the edit in question here Qewr points to the main page of the condo management website (which doesn't contain any data) instead of a subpage, to support his calculations for what McKean must be paying in property tax. This raises the rhetorical questions: why do we care what McKean pays in property tax? How is that relevant in a biography, and what is the precedent for the inclusion of this information? This underscores my point that the user has trouble understanding what does and does not warrant inclusion in a biography, and that his judgment may be clouded by his anti-McKean agenda. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM and Islam, a safe combination?

JoeM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

We've got a user who, after returning from a ban, is:

• Claiming that ISIL represents true Islam
• Announcing and carrying out plans to giving artificial validity to claims disproven by independent sources, in particular claims that the United State government plans on murdering its citizens, even using a completely false edit summary to try and sneak this conspiracy theory by.

The overwhelming majority of his edits today and yesterday focus on those two ideas. However, he's not a PR guy for Daesh. JoeM has a history of problematic edits to articles on politics and Islam. He's also got problems with WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, in addition to some WP:CIR issues (as seen here and here).

The only conclusions I can reach are that JoeM is either a troll, here to use the site as a blog for his own personal bigotry, or not in a right frame of mind necessary to edit here. I challenge anyone to find a useful edit by him that meets WP:V.

At a minimum, I'm thinking that a topic ban from anything relating to politics and Islam is in order, if not a community ban for general WP:CIR when it comes to restraining their personal bigotry. Of course, I'll also completely support an indef block followed by a community ban discussion.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I was waiting and giving him some WP:ROPE, but yes, his return does not look promising so far. --NeilN 03:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Ian, please assume good faith. I am open to discussing with everyone involved ways to improve articles on Islam and Islamic movements. My goal is to widen the discussion of present day issues in the article about Islam, which is weighted too much on pre-modern times. In articles on ISIS, I would like more emphasis on the religious doctrinal underpinnings of the movement. My goal is merely to make the realm of discussion more relevant and to write factual content.

In the meantime, as we work together, please assume good faith on my part; and I will do the same for you. Also, I think it's frankly unfair to bring up past issues when I started as a contributor over a decade ago. I behaved in a way I regretted; and I personally apologized to Jimmy Wales. I was young and still very emotional about the recent events of 9/11. JoeM (talk) 04:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Your edits, then and now, are problematic. If you cannot see that, then I think you won't like it very much here. --NeilN 04:05, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I can assume good faith or competence, but not both. The diffs I've provided clearly show that you're here to push your own misunderstandings onto articles instead of neutrally sticking to academic and journalistic sources. I bring up your past behavior not as some sort of double jeopardy, but to show that you are incapable of learning from mistakes made a decade ago.

If emotion prevents you from being neutral in a topic, stay away from it. It's clear that you're overly emotional about the death panel myth and about ISIL. You should stay away from those topics. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I am not getting emotional about those topics now. As mentioned, my goal is to (1) widen discussion about modern Islam and modern Islamic movements in the Islam article and (2) to widen discussion about the doctrinal underpinnings of ISIS. I can see that even simple matter of fact statements can be thorny issues around here. So I will adjust my plans accordingly. I will instead see what people think about adding some respected scholarship that could widen the discussion in the ways I think are needed, such as the work of Bernard Lewis, Daniel Pipes, Frank Gaffney, etc-- all TRUE experts on Islam and the Arab world. JoeM (talk) 04:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The diffs I've linked to show what your intentions are, even if you retroactively white wash them as WP:Civil POV pushing to avoid trouble. You're certain you weren't getting emotional here or here?

Daniel Pipes spreads conspiracy theories about Obama being a Muslim, and is widely regarded as an propagandist by even the people who agree with him. That you cite him shows clear POV problems on your part. Besides that, there's the issue of WP:DUE weight. If their views were mainstream, they'd be supported by a wide variety of sources that would already be cited in those articles. Gee, wonder why you would want the article to reflect their views more, then.

The article on Islam does cover movements that are active in modern times. It does not cover movements that might just be a flash in the pan, like ISIL; nor does it promote such movements as being the true form of the religion. The article on Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant does discuss their ideology and beliefs, and there's even an article on the Ideology of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Your edits clearly were not simply about that, but an attempt to equate Islam and ISIL, and create artificial balance between the death panel hoax and independent dismissal of said hoax. If we are going to expand it, we do so through citing mainstream journalistic or academic sources, instead of just repeating propaganda. That should have been a lesson you should have learned a decade ago.

This edit by you makes it hard to believe you know how to compromise. This edit by you makes your shift in tone on this page seem insincere. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of this guy, but just read up on his ban, and it seems he has exactly the same attitude towards editing Misplaced Pages that he had when he was banned ten years ago. He views Misplaced Pages as a tool for promoting views discredited or ignored by reliable sources in the interest of righting great wrongs. End it here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of Zad68's suggestion that any kind of short and/or voluntary ban would suffice, since again, the user has returned after ten years with exactly the same attitude as before. I support either a full site ban or a broad topic ban from politics and religion, both indefinite. If the latter, I advise that a month (or three? find a suitable timeframe) after the imposition of the topic ban, his post-ban contributions be scrutinized to see if he's behaved himself or found other topics to right great wrongs in, necessitating a siteban. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic-ban from.... everything? I noticed this editor at Death panel, which is at an intersection of medical care and politics. Just read through his contribs of the past few days, there's only been 50 since he came back. They evidence fundamental problems with characterizing and representing sources properly, and with WP:WEIGHT. Adding (based on last few edits): WP:LEAD, WP:NOR and citing sources properly too. Sure, AGF and ROPE if you'd like but I think you'd just be postponing the inevitable by a few days. Zad68 01:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support He hasn't learned a thing. Edits made with the last couple hours: Misrepresentation of source, synthesis in lede, he's "sure", "scholarly source" --NeilN 03:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support - A site ban, this user has no regard for anything, save their POV. Mlpearc (open channel) 03:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. This user is definitely WP:NOTHERE. They do not even understand the basics, and are brainwashed/too emotionally connected with these topics to edit sensibly. --Fauzan_{✉ mail} 13:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

  I might consider restricting the ban to main space if the user adheres to his comment below and if others agree. --Fauzan_{✉ mail} 12:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Question: at his block log I see only "17:58, 22 July 2005 Angela unblocked JoeM (Jimbo has unbanned JoeM. See http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-July/026676.html)" Where can I see the original block and any discussion explaining the reason for the block? Also, what's up with Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of JoeM? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion appears to be at User_talk:JoeM/ban, with the result here. Seems he was put on some early version of blocking. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Response

I would like to say to everyone I've dealt with over the past few days, I really sincerely do apologize for the response my edits have generated. It's clear to me that my edits have been too bold to build the consensus needed to improve articles. While I'm probably not alone in thinking that many articles on Misplaced Pages exhibit a clear leftwing bias, I am going to take a break from editing high profile articles on politics for now until I re-familiarize myself with the way things work here. I ask everyone monitoring this discussion to please hold off for now on making any sweeping bans. Please, watch my contributions over the next few days; and I will prove worthy of another chance. Thanks. JoeM (talk) 01:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM I'd be willing to change my !vote if you'd commit to a voluntary topic-ban from politics and religion, broadly construed, for six months. In that time, show in other areas that you understand how to develop articles according Misplaced Pages's principles. If you can commit to that, I'd support giving it a go. Zad68 13:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM I want to say that I genuinely and truly appreciate your response above. While disagreeing with various pieces of content I also appreciate a fair bit of the sentiment that you expressed, going back into some time, at Talk:Homelessness/Archive 1. I can also add comment as the editor that was instrumental in the addition of the Islamic extremist reference to the Isil article. Please try to understand the views of the Sunni, Shia and Sufi Muslims that this group fights against and please consider the perspective as to why editors consider it inappropriate to describe it as just another Muslim group. Having been a regular editor on ISIL related topics I can also vouch, while not making excuses, that you are far from being the only editor that has edited in that direction. Despite disagreement in regard editing content and direction I personally see no reason not to assume good faith in regard to intention. I hope that experience here does not leave you feeling too badly. I hope also that you can find great ways to invest your energies wherever they may be. All of these things can be learning experiences. I don't regularly see people making positive responses at AN/I so, believe me, you are doing better than most. GregKaye 22:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Block review

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Could someone please take a look at this block of mine (of User:Magog the Ogre) for personal attacks (see User talk:Magog the Ogre#Comment at AE. I've revision deleted the attack as it seemed quite egregious (so admins only sorry, ). The main reason I'm asking for a review is that it's a long term user and I want to make sure others agree on the seriousness (including if someone thinks it might have been a good faith joke/metaphor etc). If there is agreement that either the block or revdel isn't appropriate please feel free to lift/remove. (I might not be available for a few hours, but I'll try to check in). Thanks, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• I was equally aghast when I first saw the comment in question. The circumstances (long-term user and admin, clean block log) seem to favor a redact + warning, but the (IMO) comment itself is severely insidious enough that my own kneejerk reaction would'e also been RevDel + block. Unless it's a really shitty metaphor that went waaaay over my head, I think the block is absolutely appropriate, and so will be the unblock-request-with-apologies I'm hoping we'll be able to accept soon. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 05:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

As per Fut.Perf's enlightening comment, I did indeed miss the reference entirely -- I wasn't familiar with this apparently common analogy for a loaded question. I still think it's kind of a shitty way to make one's point, but y'know, to each their own arguments. Apologies to Magog for jumping to conclusions but I'm actually glad to be wrong in this case. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 06:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Huh? What's the problem here? The "have you stopped beating your wife yet" part? People, come oooon. That's not "a really shitty metaphor"; it's obviously the well-known standard example of a loaded question, clearly being used rhetorically/sarcastically. It is plainly obvious that Magog wasn't literally accusing Zero of beating his wife; he was merely charging him with using implicit presuppositions in a misleading way in his own statement. Come on, people, everybody can see this. I've seen this precise sentence used dozens and dozens of times used in exactly this rhetorical way in Wikipedian discussions for just this purpose . Completely harmless statement; very bad block. Please unblock immediately. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• Thank you FPAS for confirming the content of rev-deleted diff, we have also got a redirect called, Do you still beat your wife. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 06:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• Thanks Future Prefect, I've unblocked, never heard it used like that before. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Among native English speakers, that's pretty much the only way it's used, nowadays at least. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

A comment from the guy who may or may not have finished beating his wife: Future Perfect is correct about the meaning of the expression and I understood it that way. I thought that Magog's reply was unnecessarily rude, but I can take some rudeness and would have argued against the block if I'd seen it before it was undone. I might hold the record for surviving in the Middle East part of Misplaced Pages (over 13 years, almost 11 as admin), from which you can infer that I don't have a thin skin.Zero 09:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

User:John from Idegon leaving inappropriate Talk templates, WP:BITE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Warning: This is such a stupid editing dispute one would think this was an April Fools prank. I am a long-time anonymous editor who has recently created this account due to a new work situation. Recently, I made what seems to be the egregious mistake (in John's eyes) of copy-editing the Marquette, Michigan article to remove a particularly ludicrous statement ("Summers are warm, with the warmest months, July and August, each averaging 66.6 °F" - 66.6F being in no way what the average person would consider "warm"). John responded with a blind reversion and subsequent inappropriate templating (note that my edit, changing "warm" to "warmer", was correcting unsourced information, and given that the preceeding paragraph details the winter climate, saying "warmER" can probably slide without a citation without running too far afoul of WP:SYNTH). I undid his reversion, and left a curtly worded talk message of my own. He then jumped to a Warning: Edit Warring twinkle-spam. His most recent contribution to my Talk page (after re-reverting my edit, this time under the auspices of bad grammar) is bordering on the incoherent. Frankly, at this point I'm at a loss for what to do, as he is clearly not even reading the article - I suspect all he sees is "red userpage newbie", and I am in no state to work with him on this increasingly-idiotic dispute. If the residents of AN/I deem "66.6F" to be "warm", then so be it. Otherwise, can someone please tell him to back off, and refrain from gunking up my Talk page with inappropriate nonsense templates? Thanks, Darla Vise-Eye (talk) 06:04, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me, Darla Vise-Eye, that this is a routine content dispute unworthy of any administrative action. As for your assertion that it is "ludricrous" to call an average temperature of 66.6 °F as "warm", I have to disagree with you. If that's the average, it will be a bit hotter during the day and a bit cooler at night. That's not hot weather and that's not cold weather, so "warm" seems just right to me. So why call it "ludricous"? Or is this an April Fool's joke? If so, it isn't very funny. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

First, if you are not a newbie, bite does not apply. you have made no effort at discussion, and your initial message to me was a personal attack, not the first from the look of your talk page. this is not the place for a content dispute, but substituting warmer is poor grammar. summer is warmer than winter by definition. and as Cullen pointed out, yes average temps in the 60s is quite warm. I'm more than happy to stay off your talk page as long as you don't continue to make poor edits on articles I follow. if you do, I will template you. and if you continue with all the snark you've been spewing, I'm pretty sure you'll find your way back here again. it's worth noting that the OP only has one edit so far that was not reverted. John from Idegon (talk) 06:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

it's worth noting that the OP only has one edit so far that was not reverted. - It's worth noting that User:John from Idegon can't tell the difference between the "current" tag and a revert. The only edit of mine that has been reverted is the one detailed above. Furthermore: Go fuck yourself, John. Someone please ban me indef - I can put up with people like John making mistakes (the very fact that he's reverted me for three completely different reasons shows he's taking a shotgun approach to an article he WP:OWNs), and I can put up with people like John being snarky, but I can't deal with both. Now I'm remembering why my own edits tapered off - no surprise Misplaced Pages's editing traffic has been on the decline for months, what a toxic, insufferable culture. Of course all my edits have been reverted, John - you're the one who reverted them. And lmao, 66F is not at all warm. The year-round average temperature of the entire planet, including barely-inhabited shitholes like Antarctica and Greenland, is 58F. Considering the places actually inhabited by humanity, 66F is not a warm summertime temperature by any means, you brain-addled cretin. This isn't at all about content - this is about editors like John creating an absolutely frustrating and insufferably toxic editing culture because they'd rather spam a random Twinkle template than actually discuss whatever their issue is. Darla Vise-Eye (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Darla Vise-Eye's self-proposed indef ban, per WP:NOTHERE and WP:NPA. This is ridiculous. For what it's worth, ASHRAE defines acceptable indoor temperatures as 68-74°F winter, 73-79°F summer (). Ivanvector (talk) 19:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• When I was young, the lady next door called 60ºF "tee-shirt weather", and it wasn't just because of her personal preference: everyone started wearing light clothing. We all have our own ideas of how different temperatures feel... but that's all a matter of a content dispute. This is a clear WP:BOOMERANG situation; thread should be closed, OP should be warned or temporarily blocked. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 19:30, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Mendaliv, that's because you lived in a cold climate and were acclimated to it. In a tropical environment like Hawaii, you become acclimated to the heat. As a result, 60ºF is heavy parka, gloves, wool hat, and scarf weather for us. Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Stolen pieces of Misplaced Pages logo

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I note that at least three, and possibly four, pieces of the logo are missing, including on this very page. I haven't been able to identify the culprits, but must insist that they be community banned (if they aren't too good of content contributors to ban, of course). Any help or advice with this matter would be appreciated. It makes the site look bad to be unable to recover the missing pieces. Pakaran 10:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Yawn. Flat Out let's discuss it 10:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I have them. I borrowed them a while back and forgot to return them. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Pretty bold to confess that here, Skame. That's like wearing red and standing in front of the bull wiggling your bottom. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 11:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

oh, I fully intend on returning them as soon as I find out where the cat has hidden them. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 11:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Immediate block request of User:Saint Kohser

Editor making bulk changes against consensus

Serpren (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) has for some time been making bulk changes to UK placenames. I informed him on his talk page that per this consensus, it's very clear that bulk changes of this type should cease. This was in many cases mopped up by an admin (User:Redrose64), but Serpren has continued. I reverted him in a number of cases, but he has just reverted back.

This consensus was designed to stop this kind of thing, i.e. editors changing UK placenames to suit their own preference, for example removing "UK" or adding it, or swapping "UK" for "England" and vice versa. There's no consensus on which format to use and it is unconstructive to keep switching between them. I have encountered several editors engaging in this practice (usually adding or removing "UK") and showing them the consensus has always stopped them, until now.

Please advise on how to resolve this, thanks. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:05, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I now see he actually reported me for vandalism although it's not showing on that page. He did not notify me of this report and even accused me of editing "for political motivations", a clear violation of WP:AGF, let alone being utterly wrong. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:12, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

The consensus Bretonbanquet refers to is "no consensus" as to style (therefore no mandate for bulk changes). However it does refer back to an earlier discussion and straw poll which showed a split consensus (once socks and meatpuppets were removed) between "England, UK/United Kingdom" and "England" (and similarly for Scotland, Wales, N Ireland) in geography leads. (In both discussions it was widely stated by those who usually know about these things that using both the home country and UK was redundant.) Consequently Serpren has some grounds for making their changes, though they would be well advised to stop and seek fresh consensus, since the strawpoll was a long time ago, and not well attended. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC).

Yes, as you say, the straw poll is from 2006 and consensus was split. The 2014 discussion to which I linked above also found no consensus as to style and that bulk changes shouldn't be made. This is my complaint; that Serpren is not abiding by that. Nearly all of his edits are changes of this type. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

If I may add, Serpren's haste to make these changes has introduced geographic or grammatical errors into at least a couple of articles ( ). Being so eager to add their bulk changes that they fail to spot any collateral damage is a fairly good indicator that their intentions are not necessarily honourable. QueenCake (talk) 17:19, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the consensus was "Cornwall, England, UK/United Kingdom" and have been assiduously working to ensure conformity across Cornish pages. However, should the consensus be "England, UK/United Kingdom" or "England", I will happily stick with that. My profound apologies for any grammatical errors I have caused, that was certainly not my intent. Maybe an adjudication, or new consensus, could be reached? Serpren (talk) 01:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You say that, but at no stage have you been applying this convention of "Cornwall, England, UK" to pages that say "Cornwall, England". You've only been changing pages which say "Cornwall, UK". Perhaps you could explain why that's the case. The consensus you're talking about is here, but as it says, "Although no-one actively changes articles that don't comply with this format unless making other substantive edits to the article, members of the Cornwall Wikiproject do ensure that where it has been used, it remains in place." In other words, and combined with the other consensus about not making bulk changes to UK placenames, don't change the placenames unless you're making other substantive edits to the article. There is no consensus to enforce this placename format across all Cornish articles, particularly as you're being somewhat selective in your choice of articles to change.

There's also the point about inappropriate use of "Cornwall, England, UK" when the sentence already mentions England or the UK, or "English" or "British". That just amounts to repetition and makes the sentence read very poorly. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:17, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Well where I have added "England" inappropriately, you should feel free to edit it. However, I can see no refutation that the agreed consensus is the term "Cornwall, England, UK/United Kingdom" and will continue to add England where it is deserved/needed Serpren (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2015 (UTC).

I will. So you are saying that you will ignore the consensus about not making bulk changes and you admit to openly editing against that consensus. You also ignore the point in the guideline about the "Cornwall, England, UK" consensus not being enforced unless making other substantive edits to the article, and you also ignore my question as to why you do not add "UK" to articles that say "Cornwall, England" in your supposed quest to fulfil this consensus. At the risk of failing WP:AGF, that looks very much like editing with a political POV, quite apart from editing against one consensus to wrongly enforce another. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

There are a potentially-unlimited number of beneficial edits that a user could choose to make to Misplaced Pages. However, Serpren has elected to spend months making the same unhelpful edit to hundreds of pages, ignoring all opposition, frequently damaging the flow of a page's prose in order to stamp "Cornwall, England, United Kingdom" repeatedly.
It would be naïve to the point of foolishness to assume good faith when a user is so devoted to deliberate disruption and announces his intentions to carry on causing further disorder. Surely a block on the editor is justified to prevent further wilful disturbance of the project. 82.41.197.51 (talk) 04:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

This single-purpose editor continues making controversial edits against consensus, at some considerable rate. He freely admits that he's going to keep doing it, regardless of what anyone says. Is any admin going to say anything at all? Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that User:Serpren be blocked for disruption unless he will agree to stop making mass changes regarding England and the UK. A 2014 discussion found "No consensus for mass changes, and bulk changes of articles should cease." It appears that Serpren intends to violate that decision by continuing to make mass changes. EdJohnston (talk) 17:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, admins – sorry I had to repost the whole thing. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@Bretonbanquet: I didn't read the whole thing, but I am curious if we can establish one revert per 24 hours rule on England and U.K. articles, in case if that user will start to revert as well. We already have this rule in place for WikiProject Israel and WikiProject Ukraine.--Mishae (talk) 02:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mishae: That's a good idea. Hopefully it won't come to that, but it's certainly worth considering if the problem continues. Thanks, Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Archiving matter at User:Proxima Centauri's talk page

After Proxima Centauri made this edit (which I reverted) to the Murder article, I decided to look into his talk page edit history because I remembered interacting with him before and that he'd received a lot of warnings for inappropriate editing; I wanted to see if he'd gotten any recent warnings. To my surprise, his talk page edit history has been mangled because he archives that edit history to a talk page archive by using WP:Move; see here and here, for examples. I've never seen archiving like that (if I have I don't remember it or I didn't pay much attention to it before), and I view this as problematic because archives, which are WP:Subpages, can be deleted. Along with them, would be Proxima Centauri's talk page edit history, which documents his past problematic editing. If he did that knowing it would make his talk page edit history such a mess, I have to state that it's ingenious. That talk page edit history should be combined, not disjointed, not made so that it is complicated tracking down that past history. NeilN, for example, is no longer shown in his talk page edit history even though he has commented on his talk page before. I think I've commented on his talk page before; I currently can't be sure; I scanned through his archives to see if I have, but maybe I overlooked something. Or maybe he deleted what I stated there, and that edit history no longer shows up because he archived what was currently on his talk page. This is what his talk page edit history looks like now. I think that one of the WP:Moves also caused his user page/talk page (or maybe just the talk if that's possible) to be taken off my WP:Watchlist; I don't remember de-watching his talk page. I would use the Editor Interaction Analyzer tool to track down my interaction with Proxima Centauri, but it's currently not working.

Would a WP:Administrator be willing to WP:Histmerge these edit histories? Proxima Centauri can obviously be informed on how to appropriately WP:Archive. Flyer22 (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure this is against policy as I've seen other experienced editors archive this way but it makes looking at history a real pain in the neck. --NeilN 20:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure that the archiving was done in this exact way with those other editors? I view it as highly problematic in the case of problematic editors, for reasons I've stated above. And now I again remember my interaction with this editor; it concerned the Homosexuality article. I remembered this weeks ago when his username popped up; see Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 23#Edit reverted on evolution and User talk:Proxima Centauri/Archive 4#personal attack in Homosexuality article talk. Flyer22 (talk) 20:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, look at RHaworth. Searching is bit easier since they have a search field but the talk page history is gone. --NeilN 20:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not required for editors to archive their user talk page content. I know some long-standing editors who simply delete comments once they are read.

I've run into the same problem though. I KNOW I've made comments on some talk pages but when I've looked for them months later, they are absent from the talk page history. I even asked an admin to see if they had been deleted but no, they just don't show up. Liz 21:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

: Liz, per above, it is the talk page edit history that I am focusing on. And in the case of this type of archiving, that editor's talk page edit history can be deleted.

NeilN, I feel that regarding WP:OWNTALK, which is currently clear about the importance of talk page edit histories and that user talk pages are almost never deleted, I need to propose some new language at Misplaced Pages talk:Talk page guidelines to address this type of archiving. If an editor requests that their archives be deleted, it is unlikely that the WP:Administrator will check to see if all of that editor's talk page edit history is combined with those archives. By the way, the reason that I knew you'd commented at Proxima Centauri's talk page is because I saw you in Proxima Centauri user page edit history. Flyer22 (talk) 21:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I see no good whatsoever coming out of disjointed talk page edit histories of this type. For one, it makes searching difficult. For two, editors can have their talk page edit histories deleted, which is usually a no-no. Flyer22 (talk) 21:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 6) Not that I think any of this is done in bad faith, I think perhaps it's time we made a policy about this. WP:OWNTALK indicates that users may remove and/or archive notices and other conversations from their own talk page, saying "conversations can always be retrieved from the page history", but if the page is being moved to an archive subpage then the history is fragmented, meaning that even with an archive search like RHaworth's, it would make it necessary to scour the revision histories of multiple pages to find a notice that might have been removed either before or after archiving, unless you knew exactly where to look, and that could fairly easily be abused to conceal past misdeeds (again, not that I think anyone here has that in mind). For what it's worth, I don't seem to have the same de-watching problem that Flyer22 observed; I watch RHaworth's talk and was not affected by his recent archiving of the page, though he could be using admin tools to pull that off. Ivanvector (talk) 21:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• See Help:Archiving a talk page/Other procedures; this is described as an increasingly uncommon approach, but until fairly recently was explicitly listed at WP:ARCHIVE as an acceptable way to archive a user talk page. I know of several long-term editors who still archive this way. The subpages do not qualify for speedy deletion. If their talk page was on your watchlist, then the archive remains on your watchlist after the move, and the new talk page will be watchlisted too. If you edited their talk page, your edit remains in the history of the archived page, and still shows in your contributions. There are advantages and disadvantages to all archiving methods, and this does have some advantages. I don't really like how it works myself, but it is not against policy or guideline. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector and Floquenbeam, thanks for weighing in. Per what Ivanvector and I stated above, I still think that this way of archiving is problematic and we need to reexamine its acceptability and state something about this at WP:Talk and WP:Move. Floquenbeam, I did not mention WP:Speedy deletion; I simply mentioned deletion. I stated above, "If an editor requests that their archives be deleted, it is unlikely that the WP:Administrator will check to see if all of that editor's talk page edit history is combined with those archives." Do you think that's not not likely to happen? I cannot help but think that it is likely to happen. I've seen something like it happen in the case of Sportfan5000 (talk · contribs), a WP:Sockpuppet of the banned editor User:Benjiboi; see this section. That WP:Administrators can see/retrieve the content is not the point; the vast majority of Misplaced Pages editors are not WP:Administrators. As for the de-watching matter, perhaps I accidentally took that page of my WP:Watchlist. Flyer22 (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

In the case of Sportfan5000, though, User talk:Sportfan5000/BLPlist was deleted by Tokyogirl79 at "06:48, 22 March 2014" because it was the "talk page of a deleted page." So not quite the same thing. Flyer22 (talk) 21:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I think accidentally deleting talk page archives is possible in a vanishingly small number of cases, and if it does happen, we can undelete when we realize. Not worth messing up lots of other people's archiving systems that have been used for years (how, for example, would you suggest that current archives be "fixed"?) I understand the frustration with the history being a patchwork, but again, this is a manageable problem, not worth the disruption to others. At the very least (and I am not supporting this) if we decide this is no longer an "approved" method, we should grandfather in everyone doing it already. Interesting note: a case could be made that copy/paste archiving violates licensing... --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not speaking of "accidentally deleting talk page archives"; I'm speaking of deleting talk page edit histories along with the archives and no one being the wiser that those archives contain the editor's entire talk page edit history. Even in the case of WP:Vanish, the talk page edit history is not usually deleted. I also am not stating that productive editors who currently use this style should stop; since this archiving style is not standard, there are likely only a few (or as mentioned above, several) editors who archive this way. Proposing that editors do not archive this way will not affect editors on a large scale (I mean current editors). In my opinion, problematic editors absolutely should not be archiving this way. Yes, we can get into the discussion of what is a problematic editor, but that can be worked out at WP:Talk. In the case of Proxima Centauri and other editors I can point to, their WP:Block log does not indicate their problematic editing; their talk page edit histories, however, do. As for how I suggest that the current archives be fixed, I already mentioned WP:Histmerge above; the edit histories can be restored to the main talk page, and the archives would be fine. As for "a case could be made that copy/paste archiving violates licensing," how so? Flyer22 (talk) 22:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Licensing requires attribution. Unless you omit the signatures, you've included the attribution that the authors themselves used. But when archiving isn't required, there's no reason to object to a less common mode of archiving. Nyttend (talk) 22:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, per what Ivanvector and I stated above, I can't agree that this is not a method of archiving that shouldn't be objected to. I will be addressing this matter at WP:Talk, sooner or later, and I will advertise it via the WP:Village pump. Flyer22 (talk) 22:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm no expert in this by any means, but my understanding is that attribution is satisfied as long as the cut-and-paste edit refers back to the page where content was originally contributed. This is the case for almost all cut-and-paste archiving (Lowercase sigmabot III's entries all read "archiving entries from <source>", for example). Ivanvector (talk) 23:04, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@Flyer22: Wait: Are you suggesting that when an editor who archives this way is (through some mechanism) deemed "problematic", then their talk page archives should be histmerged? And that all non-problematic editors, new and old, can continue to use this method to archive if they want to? In that case, I've misunderstood. I still don't think it's worth the trouble, but I've no objection if there's a consensus for it. As for the copy/paste archiving theoretically violating licensing, note (again) that I don't actually think it's a problem myself, just that (in theory) the archive has a bunch of content on it that has no history associated with it. I've seen people argue before that this is a disadvantage to copy/paste archiving. As long as the edit summary clearly indicates what page the content came from, I'm sure it's fine (especially practically). That's probably a side-issue I should have left out, in order not to sidetrack. My point was supposed to be that all archiving methods have advantages and disadvantages. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, I'm suggesting that we state that people generally should not archive this way, or rather should not archive this way (without the "generally" added in), and that this is especially the case regarding problematic editors. I am not stating that "new and old, can continue to use this method to archive if they want to." I'm stating that I don't see a need to disrupt the archiving style of the few (or several) productive editors who archive this way. It's similar to how the top of Rms125a@hotmail.com's talk page currently states, "To anyone who has a question about my username please be advised that I will not be changing it, although I did change my signature. Thanks for your understanding.
NOTE:
Robert is one of the few editors who is not obliged to change his username, as his account was created many years before the rules were changed - Alison 02:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)." Like I just told Nyttend above, "per what Ivanvector and I stated above, I can't agree that is not a method of archiving that shouldn't be objected to. I will be addressing this matter at WP:Talk, sooner or later, and I will advertise it via the WP:Village pump." Flyer22 (talk) 22:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Once again, there's no requirement that a user archive his talk page. Given this fact, if he decides to do it, let him do it as he wishes: don't harass him about it, and don't attempt to prevent others from starting. If you want to do something about the situation, first try to get consensus for mandating that all users archive their talk pages. And definitely don't attempt to force a histmerge. Nyttend (talk) 22:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not ridiculous in the least; you are failing to get the point, as this is not about there being "no requirement that a user archive his talk page." And I have not engaged in any WP:Harassment on this matter. Once the discussion about this topic is started at WP:Talk and advertised, we will see how many agree with you or me on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Basically it's: "It's up to you whether or not to archive your talk page to subpages but if you do, use the cut and paste method, don't move it. Editors already using the move method can continue to do so." I can get behind that. --NeilN 23:10, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Because Ottawahitech just thanked me via WP:Echo for this edit, I looked at his contributions and saw that he'd, days/hours before I made this thread, questioned RHaworth at RHaworth's talk page about "wip out revision history"; so I take it that Ottawahitech feels similarly to the way that I feel on this matter. RHaworth offered an explanation there for the way that he archives, however. And, like I stated, I'm not looking to have RHaworth change his archiving style; I feel that, in one way or another, we should note at WP:Talk and WP:Move how this type of archiving can be problematic and is therefore less desirable than other forms of archiving. And, as seen, Help:Archiving a talk page/Other procedures was pointed out above. Flyer22 (talk) 23:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Is there a reason my name is being thrown around? I got an alert message. Quis separabit? 23:45, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Rms125a@hotmail.com, read above; I was simply giving an example of a new rule vs. a past rule, or rather a new way of doing things vs. a past way of doing things. Flyer22 (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This practice is kind of annoying but attempting to discourage or prevent it is pure distilled laboratory-grade WP:CREEP. If you need to search, why not just use "prefix:User talk:Proxima Centauri", just like the archive box search field would? Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Opabinia regalis, WP:CREEP is an essay, not a policy or a guideline, for a reason. And I only suggest altering a policy or guideline when I think it should be altered. I have been clear above why I feel the way I do about this archiving practice. To state more on that would be needlessly repeating myself. Again, this will be discussed at the WP:Talk guideline page; I will start a discussion there about it soon after this WP:ANI thread is clearly done. Flyer22 (talk) 00:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Besides, WP:CREEP is too often referenced when it shouldn't be. And if it were a policy or a guideline, I don't think that my suggestions in this regard would be a WP:CREEP violation. Flyer22 (talk) 01:29, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I actually prefer this method of archiving for other editors. The primary disadvantage is that is means everything has to be archived at once. But for a user talk page, this is often acceptable. And it has a big advantage namely that the edit history is still on the page where the edits are now visible. Makes it easy to look through the history. Nil Einne (talk) 03:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

RHaworth stated similarly to Ottawahitech (see my "23:40, 1 April 2015 (UTC)" post above if you haven't already) about that perceived advantage. In my opinion, the disadvantages (including WP:Newbies or otherwise significantly inexperienced Wikipedians not knowing much about locating previous discussions) accompanying this archive method outweighs any positive it has. Flyer22 (talk) 03:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have been using the same archiving technique as Proxima Centauri for some time now. I feel it is tidier if the history for the edits visible in the "top copy" of the archive page should be found within that page. Also, if I used archive bot style archiving, my user talk page would have an history about 15,000 edits long and who would want to plough through that? — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Realisticly newbies or inexperienced Wikipedians are not going to be able to locate previous discussions except in the actual archives since they don't know how to use edit histories, heck probably don't even know they exist. So this is more of a reason to require archiving, which we don't for various reasons, than to mandate a partical style. Actual many newbies won't even find the archives even if there are very prominent links to them. On the other hand, we can't forbid archiving and require all messages to stay on the same page either because they also won't find them on very long pages. So there's really no solution for the unfortunate problems that newbies will face. So I'm not seeing any real disadvantage in the point you highlighted. Perhaps there will be a tiny number of people (who you could probably fairly call inexperienced wikipedians, but not newbies!) who can figure out how to use an edit history, but not find the proper edit history, but the number isn't going to be very high. As RHaworth also hinted at, for pages with lots of edits it's likely there are far more editors who will actually be able to find what they want using this archive system, but not be able to find what they want with a more traditional archive system due to their inability to figure out how to find the right date. All in all, I think it's fair to say that this method seems to have the best ratio of advantages to disadvantages (in terms of relative weighting) when it can be used. It's just that it's not suitable in the majority of cases to due the problems selectively archiving. Nil Einne (talk) 12:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

edit break

User:RHaworth wrote above:

I have been using the same archiving technique as Proxima Centau

It is one matter when you archive your own talkpage, but quite another when you force this method on other editors.

I would greatly appreciate an WP:Administrator WP:Histmering my user talkpage to the way it was before it was tampered with (there may be other editors who may need this type of help) Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 04:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Ottawa, please agree that at 580k bytes long your user talk page was hopelessly overdue for editing. (Indeed I think that at 80k bytes long the page is still too big but I will not insist.) So please agree: a) that the present "top copy" of the page is OK and b) that I may arrange for the archive bot to do regular archiving in future. If you accept those points, I am perfectly happy to move the page history back. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 09:29, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Rhaworth said (when I think he was addressing me): I think that at 80k bytes long the page is still too big

If you really must disrupt editing to make a point you can try archiving User:DGG’s talkpage. In the meantime can I please get back to my regular editing pattern which requires someone who does not automatically assume I am a wp:problematic editor:

• WP:Histmerging my talk page
• Salvaging Tina Huang v. Twitter which was deleted on March 28 as Misplaced Pages:Vandalism

Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 13:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• What is the point of our showing log entries if you don't read them and even more to the point, what is the point of you having a user talk page if you don't read the messages on it? The log entries at Tina Huang v. Twitter clearly show that I did delete the page but then changed my mind, restored it and did something else. My comment in this thread on your talk page clearly explains what I have done. Histmerge also done. The only saving grace of DGGs talk page is that he clearly does think about archiving but I can see no earthly reason why threads from 2011 should still be there - I shall have a word with him. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Trouble with User:Binksternet

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Binksternet (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) has been attempting harrassment and edit-warring over the last three days: , repeating: , now stalking and systematically reverting: + , + , + , and finally, a baseless attempt at cyberbullying: - incidentally, I previously forgot to notify the editor on their talk page about starting a discussion about them (I won't forget this time), but somehow still knew about it 18 minutes later: . If the fault here lies with me and I should correct something about my own misconduct, then please let me know so I can give you all a huge break, and I will also do my best trying to forget that the last three days ever happened. Since I have been called combative, I might even consider joining the army. Thanks! 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

These look like pretty minor style changes, and the style guide would favour Binksternet's changes. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: Really? You call complete reverting of 15 edits - which were a complete rewrite of the entire article that took hours of effort - in one turn, a "minor style change"? Maybe I'm really not combative, maybe I'm just a complete idiot who can't tell the difference. Thank you kindly for your response! 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 22:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Andy Dingley. Totally legit reverts. Mlpearc (open channel) 22:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: I disagree with you both. I don't know if you two are Misplaced Pages administrators or not, but if that is the commonly shared sentiment, then I owe User:Binksternet an apology for unintentionally wasting his time. 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• What I'm seeing with this user is a combative person who has probably been blocked and is now using various IPs to evade the block. At the Jessica Barth biography, the IPs that have been edit-warring are the original poster, 2001:7e8:c676:ae01:230:48ff:fed7:4cd7 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 117.218.50.134 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) which appears to be an open proxy from India. Another article of focus is Mercator (retail), which is significant because it is a little-seen topic. At the Freed from Desire article, the warring IPs include the original poster plus 218.71.140.225 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) from China. A related IP is 2001:7E8:C6BD:D901:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), working on the same articles. Another IP is from Brazil, working on the Mercator article and using the same types of edit summaries: 200.145.14.206 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). So we have a tech-savvy person here, experienced with Misplaced Pages, edit warring and working Misplaced Pages's various levers to try and get preferred content into articles, using global IPs. Binksternet (talk) 23:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: You didn't mention She Drives Me Crazy - what did I do wrong there? I corrected the minor-style mistakes that you brought up in your first revert: here: , and you still weren't satisfied so you completely reverted all my edits again: . I am quite sure that this is all my fault as well, I just want to hear your detailed explanation of it. Thank you. 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 00:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(EDIT:) Also, no mention of Gloria (Umberto Tozzi song) and Love Shack outside my own talkpage: . Please take your time before you give me another punch-in-the-mouth response. 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(EDIT 2:) I suspect this is what triggered the reported editor to take his gloves off: + , which is only 12 hours away from the beginning of his attack: . I now realize that I may be half-responsible for baiting the bully, and I take no pride in that. 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 03:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: Agreed! If nobody is willing to do anything about all this (as I previously suspected: ), then close away. The last few days were fun, but I suppose they were fun only for me, because apparently wikipedians care more about "minor style changes" than improving general quality of the articles. 2001:7E8:C676:AE01:230:48FF:FED7:4CD7 (talk) 03:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The intentional insertion of a falsehood on yesterday's main page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yesterday's main page prominently claimed that in the year 528, "China's only cross-dressing emperor ruled for a single day." From discussions at Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors it has become clear that this assertion is not only unsourced, but "slightly fudging it to make the hook sexier". Or in plain English, an outright lie, intentionally added to Misplaced Pages (apparently by an admin, though I'm not at this point entirely sure that the was the originator of this falsehood). I can see no reason why this should be seen as in any way different from other forms of vandalism – the fact that it was done for April Fools doesn't alter anything, as far as I can see. Legitimate April fools hooks may mislead – but the linked article will make the misdirection clear. In this case, the article says nothing at all about 'cross-dressing', and accordingly our readers will have no way of knowing that the supposed 'fact' was pulled out of thin air for no legitimate purpose whatsoever. If it was indeed done by User:Howcheng, as the history seems to indicate, I would have to suggest that we should seriously consider whether someone making such a gross error of judgement should continue to hold admin tools. Deliberately misleading readers, and leaving them with no indication that they have been misled, is a fundamental breach of trust, and I can see no reason why it should be tolerated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Having read the earlier discussion, I share your disappointment. The agreed-upon April Fools' Day twist is purposely ambiguous wording that gives readers the wrong impression (until they read the article) despite being 100% true. This claim appears to have been flat-out false, which is unfortunate and unacceptable.

However, I regard Howcheng as one of our best administrators and don't believe for a second that he had any ill intent. This seems like an isolated lapse in judgement (and nothing more) – certainly not grounds for desysopping. —David Levy 00:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Seems to be simply a misunderstanding of what the word "cross dress" means, taking it to mean "wear women's clothing" which is of course true – as long as the person cross dressing is a man. Here the intended joke seems to have been that this was the only emperor who wore women's clothing – because she was a woman.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no legitimate definition of "cross-dressing" which includes a woman wearing a woman's clothes, so the hook was an outright lie. BMK (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

A misunderstanding of the meaning of a word is not an outright lie, no.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It appears that further there was a gender/mixup involved duing which the infant empress was presented as a boy and crowned as if she were male. So I think some serious AGF is warranted here.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The 'emperor' was a child less than two months old – and we know nothing about what she wore, only that she was falsely declared to be male. Furthermore, when someone says that the hook was "slightly fudging it to make the hook sexier", there is no room for a 'mixup' or misunderstanding that I can see – it is a statement that a falsehood was intentionally placed on the main page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I am sure the world actually looks that black and white to you. To me it doesn't for which I am quite thankful.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

When someone says that the intentionally 'fudged' something to make the page 'sexier', I take them at their word. Call that black and white thinking if you like – I call it basing my judgement on the evidence available. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

What action would you have Misplaced Pages take? I think you're missing the distinction between "Malicious and willful attempt to do something objectively bad" and "Good-natured fun that was slightly ill-thought-out and went a tad awry". One can acknowledge the hook was wrong and perhaps should not have been posted, and still not demand action or claim that others acted in bad faith. Not every mistake in judgement is a capital offense, and sometimes we can acknowledge the poor actions of others while also acknowledging it isn't a big deal. --Jayron32 01:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Even though it was wrong, it is an isolated case and I agree that it is not necessarily bad faith. In the spirit of yesterday having been April Fool's Day, I guess we were all fooled. Epic Genius (talk) 02:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jayron32: The OP stated I would have to suggest that we should seriously consider whether someone making such a gross error of judgement should continue to hold admin tool both indicating they acknowledged it was a mistake, but to the OP it isn't a big deal. I believe the OP to be angry. I also believe the OP made the proposed action (removal of admin) clear. You have to understand, as Chbarts says below, there is a bit of a civil/human rights issue triggered here involving transgender and genderqueer folk. This mistake was (to us) along the line of talking about someone being the first black actor and then showing a picture of a man in black face. Just some perspective. Jerodlycett (talk) 03:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

In addition, it was deliberately transphobic, and could only serve to prove that this project is extremely unfriendly to trans people and dismissive of their issues. The refusal of the editor User:Howcheng to acknowledge this and fix the issue is an example of how trans-exclusionary this project can be at times.—chbarts (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Holy crap, y'all are making mountains out of molehills here. I'm happy to cop to stretching the truth a bit on the blurb, when all that we really know about the incident is that the Empress Dowager declared that her granddaughter was a boy. But now I'm going to have to do something that I didn't want to have to do and out myself as someone who is leaning transgender. I cross-dress and I identify myself as a cross-dresser. I don't see how this is offensive, when the term merely means "person who wears clothes that are typically for the opposite sex". I don't plan on transitioning to female, so what other word is applicable here? "Sissy fag"? "He-she"? So when you say this project is extremely unfriendly to trans people and dismissive of their issues you are 100% in the wrong. I am extremely sensitive to these issues because I am in that category myself. So F you and the horse you rode in on and grow a sense of humor, jackass. (Apologies to the other editors reading this, but it really gets my goat to be lectured to by someone who has no idea of the circumstances and is simply making assumptions.) —howcheng {chat} 04:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's a handy tip for you: Misplaced Pages being an encyclopedia and all, don't stretch the frigging truth, ever. The fact that an admin would think it was allowable to do so, even in a DYK hook, is incredible to me. I don't agree that you should be desysopped, I think perhaps you should be banned from any editing involving the contents of the encyclopedia (broadly construed) for a short amount of time -- say a week or so -- but be allowed to continue to use your admin bit. And I trust that underneath your complaints above, you feel some measure of guilt and remorse for your dissembling, or I would be pushing for a desysop.Many, many editors work very, very hard trying to make Misplaced Pages as accurate and factual as possible. We've got enough problems with inadequate sourcing, deliberate misinformation, advertising and promotion, point of view pushing, and sneaky vandalism, without people "stretching the truth" for a lame joke. BMK (talk) 04:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Point of order: It was OTD, and it's the April Fool's edition, when all the blurbs have a long history of being intentionally misleading. In 1572, did the Duke of Alba really lose his glasses? In 1999, did the Northwest Territories of Canada carve their inhabitants into two pieces? No, of course not. You've been here since 2009, so you can't honestly claim that you didn't know about the long-standing tradition of having silly and somewhat misleading content on the Main Page on April 1. OTD doesn't do this any other day of the year. If you want to complain about this practice, fine, but don't go around preaching "admins should know better" when the same sort of thing has been going on for years, predating my involvement. So I'll apologize for not being clever enough to come up with a better joke, but not for trying maintain the spirit of the April Fool's Ma Page. —howcheng {chat} 05:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I've been here since 2005, and I don't give a shit whether it was OTD or DYK, and I don't give a shit about such a stupid "tradition" wherever it occurred. The thing I give a shit about is building a factual, accurate and useful encyclopedia that serves our readers as best it can. I suggest that the "tradition" end right here and now, and also that you take a somewhat different attitude to the extremely justified criticism you're receiving. You really don't seem to think you made any kind of error in judgment, and if that's the case, than I could well begin to agree that you're not fit to be an admin, who are people whose judgment we must trust. Stop reacting, please, and do a bit of thinking about what you did. BMK (talk) 05:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Hiding behind a point of order when someone has pointed out multiple times that what you did was wrong and hurtful is contrary to the spirit of building an open and inclusive project.—chbarts (talk) 05:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I don't see anything about gender identity whatsoever here. If you're insisting that anyone who has ever dressed up as or otherwise been presented as the opposite gender (including drag queens and Shakespearean boy actors) is transgendered, you're causing a far worse problem than anything you might be trying to solve. (Hint: "cross-dresser" is only trans-exclusionary if it's applied to a transgendered person for the purposes of denying their gender identity). --Carnildo (talk) 04:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore I'd like to point out that Chbarts never once explained how the term "cross-dressing" is transphobic, and instead simply just repeated the assertion over and over, as if somehow we were supposed to be able to read his or her mind. I would have been perfectly happy to address your concerns, but you never bothered to tell me what they were. —howcheng {chat} 05:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

You'll see that I have explained.—chbarts (talk) 05:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It's trans-exclusionary to say that presenting someone of one gender as another involves cross-dressing when no cross-dressing actually occurred. It's equating gender identity to clothing, which is degrading and minimizing. Had there actually been cross-dressing, this wouldn't be an issue.—chbarts (talk) 05:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I swear you have gone out of your way to be offended here. This is a story of an 50-day-old baby girl. It does not involve her own gender identity. At that age, she has no real sense of self and is barely even holding her own head up. I apologize for being combative in my response here. It's just frustrating when you could have explained yourself hours ago, and I never would have felt the need to out my own proclivities, which involves me risking my standing in my community. But as they say, you can't put toothpaste back into the tube. Besides, gender identity for someone like me is heavily tied to clothing. —howcheng {chat} 05:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Your personal attacks notwithstanding, do you admit that what you did was wrong, and will you at least claim you won't do it again?—chbarts (talk) 05:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• This must not happen again. If it can be dealt with by a civilised apology and promise to avoid the area in future, that would be great. If not, I would suggest a desysop may be in order. --John (talk) 06:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• What we need is more humour like this on April Fools' Day. Now that April 1st is over this thread can be closed. QuackGuru (talk) 06:24, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I kind of hope this is some kind of dadaist April Fools' joke, because if it's not, it's a massive overreaction. What's next, we torture Howcheng's entire family to death for the horrible crime of extrapolating slightly on an April Fools' DYK hook to make it more interesting? Lankiveil 06:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC).
    • We are not primarily a humorous project. I am not a fan of behaviour like this, which crosses a line. If it is likely to be repeated, action needs to be taken to prevent such repetition. Hyperbole will not help us, and neither will trying to brush the matter under the carpet. --John (talk) 06:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • We get it. You are not a big fan of the traditions on Misplaced Pages for April Fools' fun. Why so serious? Or maybe you are joking around by being so serous. QuackGuru (talk) 06:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Insulting a whole group of people and then claiming you're just joking is not behavior we should tolerate. Worse is having what you did wrong explained to you and then refusing to acknowledge that there is, or even could be, a problem with your actions. That is something willfully bad, and it is evidence of bad faith.—chbarts (talk) 06:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I would like to read some more Aprils Fool's jokes. Can you point to me the other issues and evidence. QuackGuru (talk) 07:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure. :P --TMCk (talk) 07:20, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

When were you elected a spokesperson for this group of which I am a member? I certainly don't recall getting that memo. I am sorry that you perceived there to be an insult in the blurb. Even after your explanation, I still don't see it. —howcheng {chat} 07:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Eish. I was happy to find an April Fools' item on the main page, all the more so since it took a bit of puzzling to figure out what it referred to (i.e. got me to attentively read an article I normally wouldn't have). It certainly wasn't the best trick I've seen this April 1, but it was fine for the day. I suppose there could be a discussion about whether this kind of tradition should be kept up (i.e. is Misplaced Pages too trusted and/or stuffy for a bit of fun by now?) – although I'd argue that treating readers as hyper-sensitive hothouse flowers sells both them and the project short. In any case, Howcheng has nothing to apologize about. Elmidae (talk) 06:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to be humorous on Misplaced Pages can joke around to their heart's content on the talk pages of their friends. It should never invade article space or the front page. Never. Ever. Those who think it's fine for fun and games and "stretching the truth" to be part of the public face of the first source of information for millions and millions of people are just simply, utterly mistaken. That's not what we're about, and it should stop, now, forever. It's time to start a new tradition of taking what we do here seriously, and getting our jollies elsewhere. BMK (talk) 07:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

(ec) think John's point is this – people are allowed to be funny, and equally people are allowed to find the same humour unfunny or even offensive. In either case, neither view must interfere with writing an encyclopedia. The contentious hook has been and gone so I suggest we agree that mistakes happen, remind howcheng that factual accuracy has to trump humour, put this behind us and move on. Ritchie333 07:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It would be nice if Howcheng would actually acknowledge that, because he hasn't so far. He's "cop to stretching the truth" and apologized for "not being clever enough to come up with a better joke", but, so far as I am aware, he hasn't actually said that he had a lapse in judgment. I think that at least some significant portion of the community needs to hear that. We cannot simply assume it. BMK (talk) 07:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem. Infants are often dressed based on the gender assigned at birth and a play on words that they were cross-dressed and/or misgendered is not transphobic. The hook that the person is an infant sets the tone. It becomes obvious when the article is read. --DHeyward (talk) 07:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Poor howcheng. Only Emperor for a day and nobody even liked his frock. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't see how this can be reasonably called offensive or inaccurate, If the child wore clothes traditional for girls while being declared a boy that could reasonably be referred to as cross dressing. If the child wore clothes traditional for boys while being biologically a girl that could reasonably be referred to as cross dressing. It is not disputed the child was biologically a girl, it is not disputed that the child was declared a boy and it is not disputed that chinese childrens clothing was not traditionally gender neutral, therefore the child could reasonably be referred to as cross dressed. I think April Fools needs to stop, not just on wikipedia but worldwide, however it is still a tradition, and one that wikipedia engages with and this otd ambiguous "joke" is just poor humour not poor taste. SPACKlick (talk) 08:29, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Arguing about the semantics of what "cross-dressing" means is missing the point. Just accept that other people were genuinely surprised by the link, and that at least from their point of view, the hook went against the principle of least astonishment that good linking should adhere to. Or, if you prefer, WP:EASTER (yes, irony intended). Ritchie333 08:49, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I fully disagree. The semantics of cross dressing was entirely the basis of the initial complaint. OTD on April Fool's is traditionally all about violating the principle of least astonishment, however the link was cross dressing emperor and linked to the article about the emperor. That's far from an easter eggSPACKlick (talk) 09:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

On a related note

I think it is also worth noting that the entry which made light of the Battle of Okinawa (and to a lesser extent the Battle of Five Forks) was also in extremely poor taste. I am not a spoilsport and have no problem with DYK hooks talking about an elephant named Osama or Russian a billionaire named God. But a line must exist somewhere, and in my opinion joking about the devasation of a battle, on the anniversary of the event, takes the frivolity too far. I know Howcheng is a diligent volunteer an On this day, because I have seen his work there many times before. I am certainly not baying for blood. I just wish to put this on the record so that a similar mistake is not made in the name of humour next year. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I would like to note that I didn't write either of those hooks, although I did schedule them. Both blurbs have made previous appearances and if there were complaints about them in the past, they're buried in edit histories or archives. There's nothing about them on WT:Selected anniversaries/April 1 so it was reasonable to assume that it would be similar this time around. —howcheng {chat} 07:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe could ask howcheng to apologise to all Chinese people (individually) for his faux pas. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

John Carter and Ret.Prof

John Carter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ret.Prof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm bringing these two users before AN/I to propose a three month topic ban on the Gospel of Matthew. More for Ret.Prof, as his arguing over this page go back Talk:Gospel of Matthew/Archive 8 over a year. The specific issue that brings this up is the fighting over each other, not the content, at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Gospel of Matthew: 50 CE. The topic ban should allow cooler heads to prevail. If not then a permanent topic ban will be needed. I'm not personally involved, I went to the NPOV/N to see if I could contribute, but didn't feel like getting involved in the fighting. I don't believe diffs are needed here as just reading the content on NPOV/N will show the fighting. I'm hoping that these two can contribute usefully to other areas if they get a topic ban here. Jerodlycett (talk) 02:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Proposed topic ban of John Carter

I propose this as the editor has repeatedly used threats of AN/I as his argument on NPOV/N. Jerodlycett (talk) 02:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• There can be no topic ban without evidence. It's not reasonable to ask people to read NPOVN to find what is on the OP's mind. Johnuniq (talk) 06:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • See Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Observations About Two Editors and a Call for an RFC, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Confusion, and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Response to PICO which made up >80% of the NPOV/N when I posted. As in the majority of it. If you had actually read any of the NPOV/N that I linked to you would have realized this. Jerodlycett (talk) 07:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Regardless of the merits of your case, a snarky attitude won't endear you to your fellow editors. I can see you are frustrated, Jerodlycett, but you should expect questions like Johnuniq's. It would help if you provided specific diffs that support your argument that an editor's conduct is inappropriate. The mere fact that people argue is not grounds for a topic ban. Liz 14:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • I think it is also reasonable to see at the NPOVN the clear evidence of dishonest representation of fact by User:Robert McClenon, and repeat that the comments he described as "personal attacks" in no way qualify as such by policy and guidelines. Questioning someone's competence is not a personal attack, and I think no one with any awareness of the pages WP:NPA and WP:CIR would say that, particularly considering how frequently the latter is used here. Robert's ill-informed, prejudicial, and rather incompetent judgments aside, I am unaware of having made any statements which qualify as personal attacks. I have been less active do to work through the early days of the week, but am in the process of putting together a page in user space detailing the lengthy history of disruption, POV pushing, and other problematic behavior of the editor in question, which was started yesterday at User:John Carter/Ret. Prof. And, yes, Ret. Prof is one of the two people who came to mind as one of the worst examples of a certain type of problematic editor, as discussed at User:John Carter/Self-appointed prophet. Although I have not yet gotten all the data together, and probably won't until the weekend, this comment from a member of the Mediation Committee on his user talk page, Andrevan, here, indicating that individual himself has been basically convinced that Ret.Prof's edits have been very problematic, is I think to be given much more attention and regard than Robert McClenon's grossly unfounded and I believe demonstrably baseless accusations at the NPOVN. John Carter (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • @Liz: Yes, I am frustrated. are the diffs for this. Jerodlycett (talk) 15:14, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • It is worth noting that the "evidence" of my misconduct contains only a single comment from me, the first one, which makes it really questionable how any of the others can reasonably be counted as "evidence" against me. Also, the first one, the only one from me, contains no direct or even indirect mention of any individual, but refers to a page I am developing for "discussions of this type," and I cannot see how it can reasonably be counted as a persona attack as per WP:NPA. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
          • Thanks for pointing that out, didn't realize that I used the wrong type of diff in the template. Jerodlycett (talk) 20:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
            • It would still be useful if you could indicate what comments in those statements you believe qualify as "personal attacks," because, honestly, I don't see any. I realize you are new here, having been I think one of the first people to have contacted you, but if you are going to accuse people of personal attacks it really helps to show things that truly qualify as "attacks"? John Carter (talk) 21:43, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• He has now come by my talk page with this: which as I stated in my followup comment smells of WP:HOUNDING to me. Jerodlycett (talk) 20:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• You are entitled to your opinion. However, I believe the accusations of personal attacks Robert McClenon made at the NPOVN, without any evidence, and the fact that he has maintained a rather obviously self-righteous tone thereafter, while at the same time seemingly ignoring his own false accusations, which I believe themselves reasonably qualify as personal attacks, gives me cause to question his basic ability to apply guidelines or act in accord with them. That is generally considered not hounding. Before you make any further accusations of the above sort, might I suggest that you perhaps read all the guidelines? John Carter (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: In respect to WP:COMPETENCE, Ret.Prof has a history of providing quotations which did not verify the contents he sought to add to the edited articles. A minimal competence as an editor would require that one responsibly uses references (footnotes). So I understand why John Carter accused him of incompetence (the claim isn't novel). I did not check if this is the case now (in the most recent dispute), since noticeboards debates with Ret.Prof tend to be rather tiring, and other editors tend to get irritated by his stubbornness. Of course, as a civil POV-pusher it was difficult to get him administratively sanctioned. What amazes me is his claim that old issues were resolved, in as far as he is concerned, while according to his own statements he had quit pushing those POVs because of being subjected to bullying (see his edits of his own user page every time before taking a several months break). Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral - While RP isn't "incompetent", his intermittent tendentiousness (with episodes of running away) is very much of an extenuating circumstance. As Tgeorgescu notes, RP has provoked JC, who is an easily provokable editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Robert, as has been indicated at the NPOVN, your rushes to judgment and rather obnoxious insistance on presenting your at best dubiously founded opinions as fact would be trying to anybody. I believe anybody, when faced with someone basically lying about them to their faces, as I believe you did at NPOVN, would be as disgusted with it as I indicated on your user talk page. John Carter (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is simply no way that there is a valid case here. No evidence has been presented that there is disruption requiring this sanction. The rationale behind the request isn't valid either. And I say this as someone who recently clashed with John, if I can remember correctly. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. John is defending the wiki against POV-pushing. Guy (Help!) 23:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban of Ret.Prof

I more strongly propose this as he has a longer history of fighting. Jerodlycett (talk) 02:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• There can be no topic ban without evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 06:56, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • As I stated, the arguing goes back to Talk:Gospel of Matthew/Archive 8. It starts at the first topic there and continues through all the archives to the present day. If you would read what I provided you'd see the evidence. Jerodlycett (talk) 07:16, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • It's not realistic to ask editors to read through four pages of talk page archives (Archives 8-11) to find the evidence to support your proposal. Liz 14:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • That's just it, the entire set of archives is the evidence. Every single thing on there has Ret.Prof arguing with someone about something. I don't know how to make myself clearer. There is four archives of arguing brought on by one editor. That's what I meant by read it and see. If you can make it through four archives of fighting and can say that there's no evidence, then so be it, but please at least read them before saying there's no evidence. Jerodlycett (talk) 15:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jerodlycett: You appear to be a new editor that does not understand the process. Whether you are right or wrong, you have to provide "diffs" to specific comments so that other editors can evaluate the comments.

--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: I ran into an issue. I'm not sure how to provide a diff for Old revision of Talk:Gospel of Matthew/Archive 8 as it's the first thing on that page. I can provide for that first archive page. I'm busy tonight but I will try to provide the diffs for the others tomorrow so you can read the diffs. Jerodlycett (talk) 20:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Jerodlycett: You can access the edit history via the current Talk page. The diffs for those discussions are to be found here.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 03:45, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: Thank you. I'm already exhausted with this issue, so I'm going to step away for the night and come back tomorrow to sort through all that and find the diffs. Jerodlycett (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Reluctant Support - A year of continuing tendentious editing, with running away when challenged, is long enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - as per my above comment, not seeing any evidence that a sanction is actually justified at all. Ponting at random talk page archives and proclaiming them to be complete evidence that this user needs a tban doesn't wash. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose (non admin observation) I see nothing in the diffs that warrant a ban, only a content dispute. AlbinoFerret 15:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support. This is a user who considers the necessarily increasingly forceful assertion of policy against inclusion of fringe material to be "bullying". This seems to em to be because he considers "no" to be an unacceptable answer, and therefore keeps demanding regardless of how often the answer is "no" (a very very common outcome, from a review of contributions. Guy (Help!) 23:06, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Response by Ret.Prof

Over the past couple of years I have run into conflict with a small group of editors. See *ANI - An Incompetent editor who pushes fringe views. When the ANI against me failed, I made a request for mediation. The mediator did an excellent job and all the major issues were resolved. See History of Major conflicts I truly believed I could now continue with normal editing.

There remained one minor point in need of classification. Diff 1 The response to my NPOV concern was:

1. To wrongfully close it before any uninvolved editors could weigh in, (after only one hour and 49 minutes) Diff 2. This was "not appropriate" nor were the "premature unilateral threats of punishment" Diff 3.
2. Quite a number of behavior concerns were raised about me. However, I did NOT retaliate, but explained this notice board was not the place to raise concerns about an editor's possible violation of Misplaced Pages Policy. Diff 4

I further suggested in good faith we try to work things out. - Ret.Prof (talk) 04:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The group of editors he has been in conflict with includes basically everybody who has ever worked on the same content. And it has been of a frankly and obviously consistent nature, that of promoting a fringe view of the essential Jewishness of early Christianity, something he has indicated a "conversion" to in user space rather dramatically. His conflicts are actually not really with other editors, but with the policies and guidelines of wikipedia, which, basically, do not support the insertion of the material which seems to concur with his own religious conversion. He is, and pretty much has been from the beginning, an SPA with no interest but finding some way to support his own personal views here. Honestly, if I could find any Christian groups of the present time which held the same beliefs, as I have indicated I think more than once, I would have started an article on that subject already. The fact that I haven't found such a group says a lot about how dubiously notable the belief is, and the fact that Ret.Prof has been arguing for material supporting the rather obviously minority speculations regarding this topic from, pretty much, the beginning of his editing here, makes the possibility of a site ban as an editor who has exhausted the patience of the community an I believe reasonable outcome. John Carter (talk) 14:44, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

As usual, John, you provide an impassioned statement but you neglect to provide diffs that support your claims of conflict and disruption. I think for admins to take any action, you will have to supply more than your assessment of the situation. Liz 16:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, without diffs this just sounds like a contentious content dispute.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 16:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, I am working over at wikisource today to (with luck) finish the division of a dictionary of the Book of Mormon into separate pages. I expect that to take some time, but as I also said above I should have it finished today or tomorrow, and, if this thread is still alive on Saturday, which I rather expect, either a link to the evidence page and/or a full list of that evidence will be presented here. But, honestly, considering how long I've left it hanging, finishing the Dictionary I mentioned comes first in my own eyes. John Carter (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Fighting

The basis for this proposed ban is a long "history of fighting". I will over the next few days bring substantial evidence to show this is not the case. Rather the facts I will present shall firmly establish that I am to be harassed, until I am "driven from this encyclopedia". The evidence will show that I am "a mild-mannered user", have been "bullied", "belittled" and for whom WP is "no longer a hospitable place". Diff 5 Diff 6 Please note that I have been advised that arbitration is now in order. - Ret.Prof (talk) 05:28, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

RP's characterization of himself as a "mild-mannered user" is literally true and self-serving and irrelevant. He is characteristic of a type of "mild-mannered" user who cannot edit collaboratively. As to being "belittled", RP belongs to a type of editor who sees all disagreement as belittling. If RP actually thinks that he wants arbitration now, he doesn't understand that arbitration would not vindicate him. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not a ban, it's a topic ban I proposed, and for your own good. I saw the history of fighting since last January. Can you say anything about that? If you need to use arbitration, do so. The reason I think it would be good is because you are obviously upset enough to assume bad faith. You were accused of being cowardly for trying to take a break to cool down. If it's forced on you, no one can accuse you of that. Jerodlycett (talk) 05:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words and help. I will ponder them. - Ret.Prof (talk) 05:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

In fact, he has already attempted arbitration, and made and withdrawn a request for it previously, presumably I think because he realized his reasons for filing the arbitration were basically complaints about attempts of others to adhere to the policies and guidelines he has pretty much ignored when they disagree with his personal opinions from the beginning of his time as an editor here. John Carter (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

??? I withdrew the request for arbitration as a good will gesture to pursue informal mediation. With help of the mediator we resolved all our conflicts. Working to resolve issues is a good thing and for this I am to be banned for fighting??? Please note that the 50 CE date is a minor issue. - Ret.Prof (talk) 19:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Working to resolve substantive issues is a good thing. Working to resolve tendentious insistence that one's own favored material be included is also a good thing, and I believe that, given the time requested to finish sectioning an encyclopedia at wikisource, I will be able to come up with enough evidence regarding the long-term problematic behavior of one individual here to make it easier for others to see why I think there are sufficient grounds to request a topic or site ban. using noticeboards in such a way is, in fact, one of their primary purposes. John Carter (talk) 19:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Other propositions

If you have other propositions please place them here for all to consider. Jerodlycett (talk) 02:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I propose that you actually provide some evidence. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 13:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Arguing occurs as a part of the process of a group of editors with differing points of view coming to a consensus. Unless you have evidence of WP:NPA or WP:TE, I don't see the rationale for a long topic ban. Liz 14:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Also taking diffs from 2014, which led to consensus and an end to conflict cannot be a used as a basis for a topic ban. - Ret.Prof (talk) 22:28, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

First, it is worth noting that Ret.Prof had been on one of his now rather regular breaks since 2014, as can be seen here. It is also worth noting, as per that page, that, from the time of his break from wikipedia on October 19, of 2014, his first subsequent edit to wikipedia, on March 10, 2015, was to the NPOV noticeboard putting forward the argument about the dating of the Gospel of Matthew, pretty much, so far as I can remember, on the same points that had lost in the previous discussion. The fact that he had taken a break of about 5 months in which he did nothing does not really serve as a true indicator of anything, other than the fact that he apparently sought to resurface after five months arguing, basically, the same points. I am going to ping @Andrevan: again here for his input regarding what he thought the prior discussion was about, and, if I don't get response by Saturday hopefully at the latest, will add the links then or as shortly as possible thereafter. John Carter (talk) 22:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: I was originally going to suggest only one month, but something snapped and I suggested three, and created this other props section. If I'm correct in my view that Ret.Prof has a history of fighting, and John Carter's comments were inappropriate then I believe that they could actually both get a ban for their actions. I don't feel either editor is in need of a ban. I also narrowed the scope of my proposal to only the single topic, rather than a broader category such as Christianity. Honestly one of the main reasons for this AN/I is because they need arbitration or mediation, and I don't think either of them will ask for it. I'm truly hoping that the end result of this AN/I is that the issue get resolved, without needing to resort to any ban at all. I just don't see it happening due to pent up anger/frustration, and hopefully a ban will let them come back calmer. Jerodlycett (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Jerodlycett says that "they need arbitration or mediation". That is vague, since arbitration and mediation are two significantly different approaches, the first for conduct issues, the second for content issues. Also, mediation has been tried, and has failed. Neither of them would be wise to ask for arbitration, which would be likely to impose sanctions on them. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

As to Other Propositions, see below for the recommendation for community general sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposition

Wow, this AN/I is so very ill-conceived, lacking in evidence that I suggest the following:

1. John and I agree not to edit the Gospel of Matthew for three months and allow others to to form a consensus re the NPOV debate re the 50 CE date.
2. John and I agree to accept that consensus.

This AN/I should never have been brought forward! - Ret.Prof (talk) 22:43, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Please do not put words in the mouths of others, particularly me, Ret.Prof. I believe the discussion should continue, or at least not yet be closed, until and unless the evidence from others regarding the I believe the matter of possibly sanctionable behavior over the long term is put forward and examined. John Carter (talk) 22:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Disappointed with your response...but had to give it a try! - Ret.Prof (talk) 23:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

An Assessment and Characterization

As User:Jerodlycett (J) notes, conflict over Gospel According to Matthew has been going on for a long time, at least since February 2014. The primary issue is when the book was written, or, more precisely, how to word a neutral statement as to the range of scholarly opinions as to when the book was written. There also is a fringe viewpoint, evidently held by User:Ret.Prof, that the book was originally written in Hebrew. (The existing manuscripts are in Greek, and almost all scholars believe either that the book was written in the Greek, or that the book was composed in Aramaic and almost immediately reduced to the existing Greek.)

A Particular Type of Difficult Editor

User: Ret.Prof (RP) belongs to a class of single-purpose editor whom experienced editors sometimes encounter in Misplaced Pages. Such editors typically view and portray themselves as mild-mannered, but can be extremely troublesome, sometimes in a cowardly way. Such an editor edits in a defined area (the defining characteristic of SPAs) with a particular agenda and exhibits some of the following characteristics:

• The editor’s view is often considered fringe.
• The editor is civil but stubborn, and pushes their viewpoint, and does not compromise, but either advances new arguments or rewords the same arguments.
• The editor frequently whines that other editors (possibly forming a cabal) are seeking to have him banned (whether or not there actually is such a sentiment, by a cabal or otherwise).
• The editor is not concise, and responds with walls of text or rambling screeds that amount to a filibuster of discussion.
• The editor interprets criticisms as personal attacks, then on being challenged, interprets the challenges as personal attacks. Eventually the responses to criticisms frustrate other editors to the point where there are personal attacks.
• The editor eventually responds to criticisms by stating the need to take a (possibly extended) break from editing, thus interrupting and suspending any attempt at resolution.