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Kaffeeklatsch discussions

Kaffeeklatsch request to close

Nice idea, but not at Misplaced Pages. Things are going reasonably well at the moment, so why erect a target to inflame the situation? Please close it down before the inevitable WP:MFD because those pages cannot be reconciled with standard procedures. Johnuniq (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree. Lightbreather (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the Kaffeklatsch is a good idea, too. — kikichugirl  01:23, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with the idea of the Kaffeeklatsch. --Thnidu (♂) (talk) 07:06, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Kaffeeklatsch pledge

Hi Lightbreather, I left this comment on the Kaffeeklatsch page, but I haven't signed the pledge yet, so I've moved it here. Sorry about that.

I noticed that the Systers email list asks subscribers to confirm "that you are a woman". Perhaps it's best to leave it there, and people will identify with that statement or not. I wouldn't include the issue of user preferences being set to she, sexual orientation, or whether someone has joined a certain category. I can't see that those matter for this. Just my opinion. Sarah (SV) 03:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I hope that my "Response" below explains my thinking better. For a group in my user space, the pledge seems reasonable. If the proposed WikiProject Women group gets going, with WMF resources and guidance, maybe a better way to do this will be devised. Lightbreather (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Personally I was concerned with the pledge, especially parts 2 and 3, but had trouble finding the words for it. Here are my thoughts now that I have had some time to gather them.

• Line 1: I am a woman (cisgender or trans-woman, of any sexual orientation) is a big improvement from its previous form, but isn't totally inclusive of intersex persons or female-sexed persons with non-binary gender (agender, intergender, genderfluid, etc.).
• Line 2 requires that participants out themselves as females by being in the Category:Female Wikipedians. Why is this a requirement? Is not participation in the Kaffeeklatsch outing enough?

• I understand that the project wants to encourage women to come out of invisibility and make their presence more, well, visible, but revealing any degree of personal information, including age, sex, gender, location, name, etc, and the method of revealing it, should always remain the choice of the person themselves, and not be requirement to join any group, especially when that group is the only women-only on-wiki space available.

• Line 3 requires that participants set their Internationisation user preference to "She edits wiki pages." Again, why? To alter some number to make female presence more visible in statistics? Again, this should be a suggestion only. I fail to understand why this is relevant to participation in the Kaffeeklatsch. As said, there probably are more women than just me who have left it at "prefer not to say" for reasons other than fear of sexism or harassment. For myself, it's because of my native tongue and culture. --Pitke (talk) 13:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Pitke, see my "Response" below. But I have a question for you: Are your native tongue and culture genderless? If so, cool! Lightbreather (talk) 02:26, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I would sign the pledge, as I am a woman editor who greatly appreciates this effort, but I do not want to identify myself as a woman via preferences or categories. Ongepotchket (talk) 10:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Ongepotchket. Maybe if the WikiProject Women proposal gets off the ground, with WMF resources and guidance, a better way to do this will be devised. Lightbreather (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

No and also Hell no. I'm one of the "they" sorts and that won't change. It's a safety issue. Montanabw 00:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Montanabw, do you believe an editor who sets their user preference to "She edits," or who joins the "Female Wikipedians" category, is less safe than other editors? If so, in what way do you mean? For instance, on Misplaced Pages, or in real life, or what? Lightbreather (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I have just removed myself from the group. I joined with concerns about the pledge - concerns others share - but your response makes it clear you do not agree. I can not therefore remain. LadyofShalott 17:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

As you wish, LadyofShalott, and no hard feelings on my part. While hosting this test group in my space, these requirements feel safer to me. As I said, perhaps if WikiProject Women gets off the ground a better way to do this will be agreed upon. Perhaps someone should start a test group in their space with different requirements? Lightbreather (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I am a genderqueer person, and I would like to join. I noticed that you allow trans women in (which is great!) but I am just wondering whether I could too. No hard feelings if not. :) BenLinus1214 13:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Response

Why ask those who would like to join the Kaffeeklatsch to change their user preference to "She edits wiki pages," and add their username to the category "Female Wikipedians"?

The objective is to have a women-only space on Misplaced Pages as a place first and foremost for women to feel safe - a refuge. I have based the idea on the Anita Borg Institute's Systers list. Although the groups would be similar in their goals - a safe place for women to talk about tech (Systers) and Misplaced Pages (Kaffeeklatsch) - their framework is different. The Systers group has been active for over 20 years. The Kaffeeklatsch is a test group while the WikiProject Women proposal is under consideration at the IdeaLab.

When a person registers an account on Misplaced Pages, they have to give a username, which does not have to be their real name, and... that's it. You don't have to give your real name. You don't have to give an email address. You don't have to state your gender. However, as we all know, gender does end up being divulged, intentionally or otherwise. The editing environment is hostile, which feels unsafe to a lot of women, and little is done about it, nor is little likely to be done about it in the near future.

When a person subscribes to the Systers list, they must be approved by a moderator. They give their email address and their name, and they have to 1) tell their involvement in tech (1-2 sentences suffice), 2) say that they are a woman, and 3) say that they have read and agree to the list's rules (a lengthy set). Then the person's request is evaluated by a moderator, and the email address is confirmed. This process goes a long way toward assuring the list members that they're safe. This process has been successful in making and keeping Systers a valued place for women in tech for a long time.

I don't think those who want to join this group should have to share their real names and email addresses. However, I do think that asking them to make a small sacrifice for the peace of mind of other group members is reasonable. If it is more important to a woman Wikipedian to keep her user preference set to something other than "She edits wiki pages," or not to join the category "Female Wikipedians," than it is to be a part of the group, there is still the Teahouse to reach out to for support. But for women who are members of the group, there is some comfort in knowing that other members of the group are "out" as women on all of Misplaced Pages, and not just for access to the group.

At any rate, as I said, this is only a test group for now, and it is to be hoped that the IdeaLab proposal may get off the ground, and then perhaps there will be better ways of managing membership. Lightbreather (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand the model you're trying to emulate but I don't see it working here on Misplaced Pages for a couple of reasons.

First, the Anita Borg Systers group is completely private: non-members are unable to read the list and message are not publicly archived. A completely private area isn't possible on Misplaced Pages and so you cannot apply the same membership standards. You're asking people to give up their privacy and to expose themselves for not much in the way of a return. If you want to offer privacy you'll have to take this off-wiki.

Second, you say that women need a safe space but you are excluding some of the women who need it - ones who might not want to specify both their gender and the internationalization. You say above that they can go to the Teahouse but you say elsewhere that the Teahouse isn't well-run because men run it. The overall message is that if women aren't willing to be out and proud as women, they can't join your group. If your goal is to provide a place free from disruption, you'd be better off with some kind of moderation that allows disruptive people to be banned from the page rather than focusing on requiring that prospective members specify both gender and internationalization (which doesn't actually prevent disruption because people can lie - and some women contributors can be at least as disruptive as men contributors).

As an aside, you're basically proposing that a social space be set up on Misplaced Pages. Some will see as unnecessary because people are supposed to be here to build an encyclopaedia and discussions on wiki are supposed to be focused on ways to improve articles. If you want this proposal to succeed then you'll need to address that aspect. Ca2james (talk) 23:38, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

As I wrote above, to participate in the Systers group one must give their name and their email address. That would be asking too much here in this public group. However, asking a woman to give something here isn't unreasonable when the something they're asked to give is a token compared to what the private Systers group asks. In other words, both Systers and this Kaffeeklatsch ask women to say, "I am a woman," but the Systers group (smartly) asks additionally for two substantive pieces of information, to give some peace of mind to the group. Since it would be too much to ask women here to share their names and email addresses, asking for these other assurances is reasonable.

As for taking the group off-wiki, I am in the middle of collaborating with the Systers-keeper to set up a Misplaced Pages Systers space, which will be a private space to complement to this Klatsch (and, it is to be hoped, a future WikiProject Women space).

As for the Teahouse, yes, I don't think it feels as safe for women as a women-only space would feel. (I was once told by a Teahouse host that I was being too sensitive. This is a common way to belittle women.)

No, I am not proposing a social space, or at least not a mainly social space. I want it to be more focused on community, policies, and guidelines than on content, but content discussion will not be off limits. The space's goals are:

• Create a space conducive to women's participation on Misplaced Pages (No trashing allowed);
• Maintain the space for women to seek advice from women peers;
• Maintain the space for women to discuss the challenges they share as women Wikipedians;
• Increase the number of women editors on Misplaced Pages.

However, it does not have special rights or privileges, and it cannot make rules (that apply outside the group), nor can it impose its preferences on articles, policies, or guidelines.

I'd like to make two final points. 1. Some have scoffed at the idea that Misplaced Pages can feel unsafe to women - but turned around elsewhere and suggested that it is unsafe to set your preference to "She edits" or to add your username to the Female Wikipedians category. And 2. Some have suggested that to say that one feels unsafe here makes light of the fears of women who are or have been physically unsafe in the real world. However, many women who suffer real-world abuse suffer it hand-in-hand with electronic abuse. And psychological abuse effects how safe one feels in the real world.

Please read the "Vote stacking" section. You are clearly cherry picking your notifications to areas where you expect support. If you cannot see your bias then I suggest you leave notifying editors about the debate to other people. Chillum 16:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

So a good question for someone to ask somewhere (please, please not here): Is it unsafe to do these things? Lightbreather (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Re who keeps dragging "feminism" into discussions

Montanabw, first, sorry you had to have surgery, and I hope it went well and you're back in the saddle again soon.

Second, about your comment here - - there are a few things you ought to know. When EC made the comment, "Isn't it about time that these militant feminists were dealt with once and for all?" (18:46, 26 February 2015) I don't believe gender had even been brought into the discussion. (Which was my request for an IBAN with another editor - not EC. Please scroll down.) I certainly hadn't expressed any "feminist concepts," nor used words like "female" or "woman."

However, prior to this, RO had started a discussion on EC's page that turned rather nasty. Here is the revision of that page from two minutes before EC made his "militant feminist" comment at ANI: . At that point, RO hadn't been involved in the discussion for over 18 hours. Now, I'm not going to defend RO's behavior in that discussion, but she hadn't expressed any "feminist concepts" either, or used "female" or "women." The first person to bring gender into it, as far as I can tell, was EC when he said, "That kind of behaviour clearly wasn't a one-off, but I suppose she gets away with because she claims to be a female."

The point I'm trying to make is, I think quite often "gender" and "feminism" are getting dragged into these conversations by men (perhaps even more often than women bring up these things in discussions that aren't explicitly about gender). Why?

Well, I agree that I would qualify in some circles as a "militant feminist" so I find the phrase really annoying and a label that I do wish would just not be used, so I think we are on the same page there. However, I think RationalObserver was only there to bait Corbett and I really wish people would just leave him alone; he's not as bad of a person as everyone makes him out to be, I know he insulted you, and I think he even lashed out at me once, years back, but the reality is that he's not a troll and he's not the enemy. (If you want to see the real problem, watchlist the cesspool that is the talkpage of the Gamergate-related articles. There be the dangerous trolls...) Montanabw 05:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Part 2

Bishonen, I've been following what's happening to Coffee at ANI, but I haven't seen any of this enter this discussion. Lightbreather (talk) 16:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

As for another dust-up that happened, I'm going to tell you something and you can decide if you want to do anything with it. Admin Coffee warned an editor G. yesterday, after he called RO a shit stirrer. Within an hour of the warning, C. blocked G. Here are some of the things G. said in that time span:

• Pot stirring? well Rationalobserver you and the militant and trouble making wimmin of this project are the ones to recognize that. I applaud you. Why not block me too Coffee?
• Ah coffee, you may be able to help: I remember once when I was a boy at school, clandestinely watching a totally shocking film where nuns masturbated while a handsome priest was burn at the stake. I doubt Eric is very handsome, but tonight I am minded of that film.
• ...it's nothing to do with women editors as a whole - the whole world knows that - they are as rational as the rest of mankind; it's to do with a small group of women who have formed a group, sucked in a few gullables ... and are now playing the sexist card for their own peculiar ends.

After this, some editors tried to get Coffee in trouble for what they saw as implying Giano is racist. (Apparently, nobody saw any problem in what Giano had written up to that point.) When Coffee blocked an IP - who called somebody a nigger - posting on Giano's page, some of G's defenders thought that his edit summary implied that the IP was G.

(Actually, just before this, G. commented on C's "unusual name.") Lightbreather (talk) 15:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Considering that "coffee" is sometimes used as a descriptor for skin color for dark-skinned people (along with cocoa, chocolate, and cafe con leche), perhaps Coffee is a person of color? And is it outside the realm of possibility that a person who would label women editors whom they think are "militant" as "shit stirrers," impossible to imagine that a person who compares women editors to "nuns masturbated while a handsome priest was burn at the stake" might be capable of racist remarks?

Now I'm going to relax with my husband and watch some tech TV. Lightbreather (talk) 15:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I meant to add, Coffee is now being "discussed" at ANI. Lightbreather (talk) 15:45, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Coffee is certainly not "a person of color" and I've no idea where you've got that idea. Unless you think he's lying as regards the photos of himself he's uploaded (here, for instance), I'm not sure anyone could be any whiter. – iridescent 17:18, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I explained where I got that idea three paragraphs up. I'd never seen Coffee's picture. I'd never heard of him before yesterday and apparently neither had G, because he said to C:

coffee? What a curious name, I've never before heard of you...

The IP posted on Coffee's talk page, after C. blocked him:

Last one was 2 weeks, so the nigger is learning,

... so it seems like the IP might have thought C. is black. As I said, some refer to African skin tones as "coffee" and so on. (I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just that it is. Read Langston Hughes' Harlem Sweeties. Some call it the Starbucks Skin Scale. Heck, there's even a DJ named Black Coffee. Is this really new to people?)

--Lightbreather (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Lightbreather, and I say this sincerely, chill out. You are going down a rabbit hole against the wrong people and grasping at shadows. Montanabw 05:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Co-op: Mentor profiles and final pilot prep

Hey mentors, two announcements:

1. You can now make your profile at The Co-op! Please set up your mentor profile here as soon as you are able, as the pilot begins on March 4th. It isn't very involved and should only take a minute. If you need more info about what the different skills mean (e.g. writing, communication), please refer to these descriptions.
2. Profile creation, invitations, and automated matching of editors, profile creation, that will be coordinated through HostBot and a few gadgets may not be ready for our pilot, and will have to be done manually until they are ready. In preparation for the pilot, please read over these instructions on how we will be manually performing these tasks until the automated components are ready. I, JethroBT on behalf of Misplaced Pages:Co-op.

(Opt-out Instructions) This message was send by Jim Carter through MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Last Warning

Lightbreather I'm going to say this once and once only. There's a lot more to true civility than the choice of 4-letter words. I am all for the promotion of female editors, I also support male editors. Your agenda of "we poor women are being mistreated' has long exceeded the sell date. Your attempts to create a walled garden are an embarrassment to women everywhere. If you continue on this disruptive path then I will put a block on this account. Perhaps a read of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS would be a good idea. — Ched :  ?  16:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Is this meant to be a warning only, or am I allowed to reply? That is, if I ask questions or make comments, am I likely to get blocked for that? Lightbreather (talk) 17:13, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Ched, I'm going to say this once and once only. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS is about content added to Misplaced Pages - i.e. article edits (that's why it mentions WP:RS & all that technical stuff). There's nothing there about the editor. Perhaps a reread of the WP:TENDENTIOUS essay (not policy) would be a good idea? AnonNep (talk) 00:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I have read Right Great Wrongs and I agree with AnonNep: it's about content. Did you mean to point me to some other essay?

I think you might want to read this part of the admin policy: Expectations of adminship. Lightbreather (talk) 21:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The Devils

LB, I can't help but notice you've now put Giano's quote on your user page. As I pointed out at that mess of an ANI you are completely misinterpreting that reference. It's an actual film (by one of Britain's most famous directors) and the point of the scene in question is totally prescient to the point he was trying to make. Love or hate Giano, I'm just pointing out you've completely missed the reference where nobody else did, hence nobody thought anything of it. So essentially you've just put a quote on your user page about a film any halfway decent movie buff is eminently familiar with and most certainly isn't making the point you're thinking it's making. Capeo (talk) 01:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The film (from section header): The Devils. I understand that he was referring to a film. And it's also plain that he was comparing the nuns in the film to what he (G.) considers some women editors (like RO) and the priest who was burned to EC. Lightbreather (talk) 01:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Lightbreather, I suspect that those quotes may be a violation of WP:POLEMIC. They're not being used in dispute resolution and even though there are only two items there at present, they could be considered to be part of egative evidence, a laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems. Given the amount of disruption swirling around you, it might be a good idea to remove those statements and keep them off-wiki. Ca2james (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern, but if the two items you're referring to might be a problem, you might want to post a similar warning on G's and EC's talk pages regarding their user pages. Lightbreather (talk) 20:52, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

While I could do that, I won't because it won't make a difference to the pages and it would cause all sorts of unnecessary drama. I expect that they are familiar with WP:POLEMIC whereas I wasn't sure whether or not you were. If they're ignoring or flouting it, the last few days have shown that their behaviour is tolerated, if not condoned, by much of the community. I know that this situation doesn't conform to WP:CIVILITY and that this behavioural double standard is incredibly frustrating, but targeting them won't help and will just make things worse. In my opinion, it's better to embody the civility we want to see even in the face of the worst incivility and to encourage civility in all the editors we encounter. Over time that can potentially cause a tipping point where incivility is not tolerated. To me, demanding civility and being uncivil won't make anyone behave civilly. Ca2james (talk) 22:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Now subject to a community imposed sanction

Pursuant to this discussion on ANI you are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or, directly or indirectly, commenting on each other, broadly construed. This restriction will be enforced by blocks escalating in length. As usual you can appeal the sanction to AN. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Lightbreather (talk) 20:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Request

Hey LB, would you mind staying off my Talk page and away from me for a bit? Now that you have your Iban with the above mentioned User, I'm not sure if you choosing to direct more attention at me or not, but how about if we give up giving each other grief at least for the rest of Lent? I've been making an earnest effort to respect the reason that we were Topic banned, but from my perspective I'm not sure if you appreciate it as much as I do. In the short time since our Tban has ended, you've also been blocked more than once. Neither of us has accomplished what Eric Corbet in terms of shear volume or quality of editing, so I hope that you have not become desensitized to being blocked. I can't imagine how that would help any of your causes or ideals.

That said, I'm going to direct my attention to the Ellen Pao article for a bit and see what I can do to expand and improve it. Miss Pao is an attorney in the tech industry who filed a gender discrimination suit against her employer. I've found several sources that state that the lawsuit has the potential to be a pivotal one for gender issues in Silicon Valley. So in the mean time, I'm going to leave stomping about the gun politics articles to you. Please keep in mind that adding politically oriented content to Firearm articles that are entirely or predominantly technical could be construed as a violating the spirit of our Topic ban. Regards, --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:54, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

That's fine, but I felt like you were poking me a bit with the NRA article and the recent skirmish over including Assault weapon in the Semi-automatic... articles. I actually plan on working on some women related articles at least part of this month in honor of women's history month. That's not to say I won't be working on gun related articles, but I don't plan to focus on them exclusively. Lightbreather (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, like I've said on many occasions, I can't control how you interpret my words or activities, all I can ask of you is to AGF before reacting. As for the "semi" articles, I'm concerned with politicizing firearm articles that are either exclusively or predominantly technical in nature. Expanding and preserving technical and historical information about firearms and related ordinance has been the focus of the Firearm Project from the start and that intention has been disrespected and/or ignored with egregious results in my opinion.

Mike tried to explain that and maintain its focus, but it gradually drove him to a breaking point that you are all too aware of. I'm not defending his actions, but the guy selflessly devoted himself to coordinating a project whose articles have been thoroughly battered, abused, and misappropriated. I feel sorry for him and know that others do as well. Just about anything religion, politics, morality, and/or human sexuality related on this site seems to not only invite, but attract controversy and derision. I have come to appreciate that introducing those kind of elements is just counterproductive to the entire project.

By the way, I have noticed a change in your viewpoint as well. Using phrasing like "recent skirmish" or referring to "the guys" with regard to a discussion that DN was having with other Editors is a recent development. You actually seem a bit more "civilly combative" lately and in some instances towards Users that seem like they are trying to help you. I have found that one of the best ways to "win friends and influence people" on this site is to simply take most things in stride and let pretty much any negative comment (whether real or perceived) roll off my back like water off of a duck. Also, one of the best ways to avoid a fight, is not expect one. I have not done enough of either with you and I probably will never be able to adequately apologize for that.

This is an interestingly diverse and "concept rich" community, to put it mildly, and something that I've learned is that "shedding light" on anything can be a double-edged sword. Sometimes it makes a subject grow and in other instances wither and shrink. Unfortunately, too often light is shed on negative things making them grow and not enough on positive things. You probably will never fully appreciate how much I wish I had never made my "brilliant" comment in reply to Eric's comment using the C-word last year or how absolutely idiotic I feel for missing his use of that abhorrent word to begin with. With that single comment, I reduced myself to the proverbial "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" of Great Chicago Fire fame.

Assuming that it's not inappropriate to say, I wish you a good Lenten season, --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's a little too long for me to digest. As for the semi articles, I hear your concern, but appropriately adding an item (or two) to a See also list is not politicizing. There is no way that gun articles, some anyway, are going to stay completely technical. It's a politicized issue, so the best we can do as WP editors - and per NPOV - is to give the political aspects their proper weight.

I'm sorry that you're concerned about my behavior, but as I said yesterday, I'm a bit concerned about yours. But wasn't the whole point of your posting here is that you want to take a break from each other? If you want to, then let's do it, OK? Lightbreather (talk) 20:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

(Though I do thank you for the apology. Lightbreather (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2015 (UTC))

POV Pushing on GSL

I may need some of your guidance. I may be being accused of WP:POVPUSH by Cullen328 in regard to my latest TP section on GSL. I am trying to talk it out with them, but aside from the TEAHOUSE, I don't really want to turn to anyone else for advice regarding GSL and my behavior. Please let me know what you feel is the right thing to do. For the time being, I am going to try and avoid adding ANYTHING to the article or it's TP relating to this seemingly personal matter. I don't really know what to do. Darknipples (talk) 09:36, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure of what to make of Cullen328's behavior in the past week or so. He just pinged me to a discussion on another editor's page, and I'd really rather not go there. (I'll probably make a reply and then take that page off my watchlist.)

As for the GSL page, I'd been meaning to chime in on that interstate discussion that you started, so I'll go catch up and add my two cents. Then, I'd think we'd be wise to give C. some space till he calms down. Lightbreather (talk) 15:31, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

So, WN inserted "intrastate" all over the article? At least they aren't going on about calling all GCAs hoplophobes again. Seriously, who does that? Isn't there a rule against this kind of stuff? Anyway, now MW is requesting I define GSL (for some reason?), while refusing to provide citations or answer questions about the validity of this "intrastate" assertion. All of this over a word FE insisted be inserted into the lead and then removed when it didn't fit his their POV . Very strange indeed. Darknipples (talk) 03:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

MW has been participating in GSL talk Page discussions since January 15. There is no good reason he should be asking you or anyone else that. Lightbreather (talk) 04:13, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Why do I CONSTANTLY get the feeling that NO ONE repsects what I have to say except for you (edited - and probably Cullen and ScalH) on GSL... SMH(Shaking My Head). Darknipples (talk) 06:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

After hitting a rough patch, I feel the funk evolving into a more productive coalescence. I've got images for the article now. My friend procured them for me after much effort. Look forward to another lively debate, and hopefully, a consensus! Darknipples (talk) 08:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

For Cullen328 and LB to discuss...

First posted on another user's talk page, then moved here.

Doesn't the Bill of Rights of the Constitutution of the United States guarantee a right to "keep and bear arms", Lightbreather? And haven't the highest courts of the United States consistently interpreted that as an individual right? Everyone knows that the U.S. Constitution does not apply to other countries, but that certainly does not means that editors who understand and appreciate the Bill of Rights in the U.S. are incapable of editing articles about gun rights in other countries. I certainly hope that you do not oppose the Bill of Rights in the U.S. where it has applied for 225 years. Do you? Cullen Let's discuss it 08:09, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I certainly hope that you do not oppose the Bill of Rights in the U.S. where it has applied for 225 years. I cannot believe that you're questioning my patriotism. I proudly helped my dad get his SAR membership. My oldest son was in the HHC, 1st Batallion of The Old Guard. He helped to honor many veterans buried at Arlington. He fired salutes at one of Bush's inaugurations. My heart still pounds to remember being at the National Mall on July 4, 2000, as those guns fired to the 1812 Overture. He later served in Iraq, was nearly blown up by an IED, and came home - to my home - with PTSD. I'll thank you to never again question my love of country and what my family has sacrificed for her.

As for your lecture on the Second Amendment: Yes, the highest court ruled - in a split decision - that it gives individuals a right to own arms. But even uber-conservative Scalia, in delivering the majority opinion, wrote:

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those 'in common use at the time' finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

But you'll rarely find the Misplaced Pages pro-gun crowd cramming that into the lead of gun-related articles. If you went by the lead in the many articles they've loaded with their RKBA BS, you'd think every man, woman, and child in the U.S. has the right to roll down the street in a tank with a rifle in one hand and a pistol in the other. Further, in the first section of these articles' bodies, you'll find quotes by Aristotle, Cicero, and Locke making it sound like every human on the planet has the right - perhaps even the duty - to be armed to the teeth. They might even go so far as to say (or to hint) that God himself wants all his children to be packing.

So, to reiterate what I've said before. My father owns guns. My brothers and oldest son own guns. My grandfathers owned guns. I've been taught to handle guns myself. I support the Second... but I believe the minority had it right in Heller (as do many), and even if I didn't, the majority in that decision made it clear that "well regulated" still means something. And my work on Misplaced Pages, when it comes to gun related articles, is to make sure that 2A arguments are not given WP:UNDUE weight, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements. Anyone who thinks I'm trying to do anything else should consider an appropriate DR process, or keep their opinions to themselves. Lightbreather (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your patriotism and I greatly appreciate your son's service. I feel no need for any formal dispute resolution, but reserve the option to express my view on any manner pertaining to this encyclopedia. By the way, I certainly do not maintain that Second Amendment rights are unlimited. As a matter of fact, I personally favor universal background checks and have not owned a gun for decades. Cullen Let's discuss it 20:56, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Gun Politics Task Force proposal

You might be interested in this. Faceless Enemy (talk) 04:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

FYI - I'm supporting this, and hope to be a part of the effort in diffusing polemics in such articles. BTW, where have you been? Darknipples (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Real-life stuff, plus feeling icky off-and-on. Unfocused on WP at present. Lightbreather (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
	You are ever vigilant Darknipples (talk) 19:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Lightbreather (talk) 16:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for your contributions to the NRA article. Thank you for your time in contributing to the recent RSN request. Since your comment there I have added what I think are some relevant points to the discussion. I wonder if I might impose on you to take a moment to review the latest discussion. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 03:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

So, this is where you've been? Looks like the gangs all there. I guess GSL is getting a bit stale? Feel free to ping me in if you'd like some fresh eyes on it. I'm going over it and it seems like it could use some additional updates. Deja vu? Darknipples (talk) 11:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I've been very busy the past few days on some women's articles, plus a few gun-related. When it rains it pours and all that. Do you know about how to see what another user has been working on? When you go to a user's page or talk page, in the left-hand column, you should see "Tools" and under that you should see "User contributions." Click on that and it shows diffs of what the user has been working on.

Also, do you know about your watchlist? If you click on "Preferences" in the upper right-hand corner, and then on the tab for "Watchlist" you should see your watchlist settings. I can't remember what the defaults are, but if you scroll down to "Advanced options" you'll see "Add pages..." that you can select (so that any page you edit, move, or create are added to your watchlist). You can also manually add pages to your watchlist; when you're on a page, for this example say the National Rifle Association page, you can click the "star" tab in the upper right-hand corner. It toggles on-off; white is off and blue is on (on my screen anyway). You can also use the "Watchlist" tab in the upper right-hand corner to see your watchlist and manage what's on it.

Sorry if you already knew all this stuff. Lightbreather (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

A page you started (Index of gun politics articles) has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Index of gun politics articles, Lightbreather!

Misplaced Pages editor WordSeventeen just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

good list article

To reply, leave a comment on WordSeventeen's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Thank you, WordSeventeen. I can't believe there wasn't already an index for these. I still need to add quite a few. Lightbreather (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Congrats for being on Misplaced Pages for 8 years today! Here's a cup of coffee to keep you going! Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 05:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Get Well Soonest!

Hope you have a speedy recovery. I know we have had our differences, but I do respect your edits. And, I appreciate your contributions. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 18:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Mentoring

Hi Lightbreather. I saw you were just matched to an editor in The Co-op recently, but I also just found out about your arm and how tough it is for you to edit right now. I'm really sorry to hear about it, and hope you have a quick recovery. Would you like to mentor them still, or would it be helpful if I find someone else to mentor them? I, JethroBT 19:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, JBT. I have been looking forward to participating in the program, so I'd still like to give it a try. I'll explain my situation to the mentee and if they're OK with it, we'll give it a go. Lightbreather (talk) 19:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks LB, and I gotta say, that's some real dedication! Also, if you want to stop from getting matched to additional editors so as not to get overloaded, you can go to your mentor profile and put a "1" in the unavailable= parameter, and remove it whenever you want to start getting matches again. Thanks, I, JethroBT 19:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

3RR

Your recent editing history at National_Rifle_Association#Finances shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

See:

In particular, I'm talking about the "considerable amount" text at the beginning of the second paragraph (WP:EDITORIAL), the removal of the total budget at the beginning of the finances section (which provides context), the NSSF statistics (WP:UNDUE), and the re-addition of the Hickey sources (unreliable and biased). Please self-RV. Faceless Enemy (talk) 23:18, 14 April 2015 (UTC)