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Revision as of 06:59, 18 April 2015

Let the games begin...

Ok, while editors are picking at the original essay and 1st rewrite, I have written a 3rd. If we could spend less time bickering and more time editing we would be much further ahead. Atsme☯ 04:01, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

A very peaceful plan, leave the bickering on older pages and continue working on others. Even if it takes a few more pages it seems like a good idea. :) AlbinoFerret 05:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Resume COI and Advocacy discussion

• Advocacy or POV-editing for several reasons. First, I see COI editing - defined on WP as editing for financial gain - as separate but related to advocacy or POV editing. An editor can have a COI and turn out an NPOV article, and an editor can have no COI and turn out a POV-pushing article. Second, it's impossible to determine who has a COI because we are not allowed to OUT anyone. The only way to find COI editors who aren't writing NPOV articles is via their behaviour, and that behaviour is pretty well indistinguishable from and is as unwelcome as anyone who edits in a non-NPOV way. Finally, I think that a focus on COI means focusing on the editor themselves because it's the editor, not the edits, that has the COI. In contrast, focusing on advocacy or POV-editing means that the focus is on the edits and behaviour, not the editor themselves. I think looking at POV-editing is assuming better faith of other editors than looking for a COI.

I see that instead of rewriting the essay as was strongly suggested at the MfD close, Atsme is ignoring this discussion and is editing the latest version of it. Atsme, it seems that you do not actually want to collaborate with other editors on this and that's bad because your essay is fatally flawed. At its core, it encourages readers to assume bad faith of other editors (and of course there's the misuse of the duck term, which contributes to the assumption of bad faith). It needs to be rewritten from scratch through collaboration with editors who aren't anti-Project Medicine or anti-MEDRS. It needs to be written with an underlying goal of actually dealing with the problem instead of the current apparent goal if providing editors who disagree with MEDRS or RS guidelines a way of discounting their opponents. No one editor can do that on their own, and they most definitely can't do it if they start by assuming bad faith. Ca2james (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with much of what you say. I don't think Atsme has refused to collaborate, but I agree more collaboration will need to take place to get a revised essay published. I dislike the continued assertions that it must be completely rewritten. That leads to the unreasonable suggestion that there is nothing salvageable of the essay and/or that there is nothing worthwhile about it. Collaboration is not about rejecting the entirety of the essay but working on what is good and addressing what needs to be corrected. Doing the same with BoboMeowCat's revised essay is no more helpful. Black/White assertions are not helpful in this regard. Specific criticisms, evidence for them, and proposals to correct them are collaborative. Blanket rejections are not helpful. David Tornheim (talk) 00:52, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

David Tornheim, we're all here talking and developing a consensus while Atsme has rewritten her essay yet again without engaging here. She's also questioned the motives behind anyone else writing a similar essay. Between those two facts, I think it's fair to say that she has so far refused to collaborate.

Atsme's third essay is better than the first two but it still has issues with negative tone and the "duck" theme. It isn't that there's nothing worth saving; it's that not enough assumptions of bad faith are being discarded. It is still much too easy to imagine an anti-MEDRS editor reading that essay and using it against editors who are attempting to apply MEDRS. Yes, there are cautions against assuming bad faith in there but that's not enough. Ca2james (talk) 02:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Can you give specific examples where the essay assumes bad faith? Can you identify sentences or phrases that you believe do this? I hear this asserted over and over to characterize the entire essay, but I just don't see it. The essay cannot be fixed with such broad brush criticism and black/white thinking. We need details of specific examples of sentences and phrases that you believe are against policy, guideline and/or ArbCom decisions. David Tornheim (talk) 06:59, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Progress - We seem to have a consensus on one thing: The essay should not be about COI to the extent of advocating outing or research with that in mind to prove a COI. Is there any objection to my claim we have a consensus on that? If you have a better way of stating this, please offer it below. David Tornheim (talk) 00:52, 18 April 2015 (UTC)