Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:33, 14 May 2015

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • Try dispute resolution
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• A request for adminship is open for discussion.
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

Large number of potentially incorrect edits

The problem has been described at the Teahouse questions forum by Aloha27 as follows:

"There currently is a stub article which is wikilinked to by every town, village and community in Nova Scotia, Canada. One editor in particular has taken it upon his/her self to change over 1600 articles to use this obscure stub as the definition for each and every community in this Province rather than the usual wikilinks (town, village, community etc.) used by the rest of Misplaced Pages. Seeing as how NS is apparently the only region in the world that uses this definition and the definition could be eliminated at any time by the stroke of a pen by the NS Government, I would wonder if the project would be better served if we simply deleted this article under WP:N as a Google search using the phrase gives few (if any) reliable sources?"

This made me look at the contributions record of Moka Mo to confirm a large number of edits have been made, many of which add this link.

I checked their talk page to see a notice at User_talk:Moka_Mo#May_2015 by Cmr08 requesting that they enter into discussion.

The reason I am bringing this here is because admins have tools to perform any necessary mass roll backs of edits by an editor that are proven to be incorrect. I am making no judgement on the correctness or otherwise of the edits. This is to alert wiser heads than mine to a potential problem. I do not see this as a content dispute, more as something that will require some poor admin to pick up the baton and undo a large swathe of changes. I am about to notify the editor in question on their talk page. I will also notify the other editors I have mentioned in order that they may make a decision about participating in this discussion. For clarity, I am uninvolved in and have no interest in the articles concerned. I doubt I have ever edited in that arena. Fiddle Faddle 10:39, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the stub article above, and don't really care if it's used or not, or even if it's removed. The concern I had was that a large number of Nova Scotia articles were being changed to say they are regions and not communities but the editor making the changes was providing no reason for the change. After editor made these changes a second time, I left the talk page message hoping that the editor would prevent this from getting out of hand by explaining why the change was being made. By providing no explaination, I felt the editor was insisting on making the changes regardless of what other editors were saying. Had only the stub article been removed, I wouldn't have even bothered, it was labeling the communities as regions with no proof that bothered me. I didn't think asking an editor to explain changes would lead here, but I am more than willing to retract the statement if it would prevent this from going any further. Cmr08 (talk) 02:20, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

To clear up some confusion above, Moka Mo doesn't appear to be the editor adding the link to the stub article as was stated in the notice above. A check of history shows that 19960401 is the editor who added the link to a large number of articles. Moka Mo had only made a couple of edits total to Nova Scotia articles until a few days ago. That being said, I still have no opinion on the stub article, but thought the info should be clarified. The only additions of the article by Moka Mo appear to be a couple of articles where he/she re-added it after removing it in an earlier edit. Cmr08 (talk) 03:33, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies to Moka Mo whose opinion here is valuable in any case. I Must have picked up the sole edits where this was the case. I shall notify 19960401 on their talk page of this discussion. Fiddle Faddle 06:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not hard to make mistakes, especially with a lot of confusing edits going back and forth. I only picked up on it when I went back a second time to re-read this. At first I actually thought this was over the message I left him on talk page, I now see it has nothing really to do with it. Cmr08 (talk) 07:53, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty to adjust the title of this thread as it is obvious that it isn't Moka Mo who has made the edits in question. Blackmane (talk) 02:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Although there is a 1-in-365.24 chance that it is a coincidence, I point out that 19960401 is a date code for April Fool's Day, 1996. Carrite (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Request confirmation of WP:ANI statement by TParis

Administrator TParis, closing a WP:ANI incident last year related to calling a BLP subject a "denier" or "skeptic", said:

Use what the sources say. If the majority of sources call a subject a "skeptic" then they are a skeptic. If the sources calls them a "climate change denier" then call them that. We use what the majority of sources use. Single partisan sources that are used in opposition to the majority of sources will be considered POV pushing and sanctioned under WP:ARBCC. Mass changes of any material without discussion is disruptive.--v/r - TP 23:01, 3 January 2014

TParis has retired so we cannot turn to him for confirmation or retraction. The issue has resurfaced for another BLP subject, Anthony Watts (blogger). TParis's instructions have been questioned, for example on the talk page. The majority of recent editors of the article are upholding a quote of "denial" in the lead (for example here referring to Watts's blog), and some editors are insisting on keeping sentences containing "skeptic*" in the body (for example here). Currently we know of more "skeptic" than "denier" sources but that could change. I am asking for a statement now equal to "TParis was right" and the statement was meant to apply to BLPs where future skeptic-versus-denier fights arise. I will put a note that I have asked for confirmation, on the article's talk page. Peter Gulutzan (talk)

Watts is a very prominent source of climate denial propaganda, he is associated with the engine of climate denial, the Heartland Institute. There is a great deal of motivated reasoning on that talk page, all of which boils down to people trying to neuter the fact that climate denialism is bullshit and Watts' blog is probably the most visited source of climate denialist talking points.

For the avoidance of doubt: TParis was right. This is not remotely controversial as a statement of policy. Guy (Help!) 15:38, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

He's a skeptic. "Denial" is a smear term (calculated to bring up equivalence to Holocaust-denial). It is dishearening to see pretenses to neutrality so cavalierly thrown over the side. Pax 19:09, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

No, he's not a skeptic, any more than the Australian Vaccine Skeptics Network are skeptics. He is not skeptical about material that supports his agenda, and he is engaged in a peudoscientific attempt to prove a pre-defined conclusion. At best this is peudoskepticism, but in fact his activities are part of the cottage industry of climate change denialism.

Meryl Dorey is not a vaccine skeptic, she is a vaccine denier. Vincent Reynouard is not a holocaust skeptic, he is a holocaust denier. Anthony Watts is not a climate change skeptic, he is a climate change denier. The fact that sources historically permitted the self-applied label "skeptic" does not change this.

As Christoff noted: "Almost two decades after the issue became one of global concern, the 'big' debate over climate change is over. There are now no credible scientific skeptics challenging the underlying scientific theory, or the broad projections, of climate change." Guy (Help!) 08:28, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Gulutzan: Whether he is retired or not, TParis should have been notified about this thread, so I have done so. As it turns out, he has been around a bit since his retirement. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 16:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

• TParis might not be around any more (alas), but WP:V and WP:NPOV haven't much changed in the meantime. It seems tendentious to pretend that this article's wording was the result of one admin's whim rather than core wikipedia policy. bobrayner (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
• Watt's is a classic climate change denier, i.e. http://grist.org/article/2011-03-30-wattsupwiththat-attack-on-berkeley-temperature-findings-was/ More on the topic see https://en.wikipedia.org/Climate_change_denial prokaryotes (talk) 20:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
• This looks like a content dispute. It would be better resolved at WP:BLPN. ANI is not the place to hold a vote on whether someone is skeptic or denier. If someone is editing disruptively or hurling personal attacks, then it would become a matter for ANI. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, though TParis is disillusioned with Misplaced Pages at the moment, the editor is still paying attention. I had a nice chat with TP on their talk page just a couple of days ago. Friendly words might help motivate them to return. Just a hint. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• This thread is not about the content dispute. It is about whether TParis was right to say that such a dispute should be settled by counting the sources, and TParis said it on WP:ANI. It was brought up on WP:BLPN long ago and went nowhere. Actually I believe edit war is happening (a sign is that the article's revision history for the last month has "rv" or "Revert*" or "Undid" in 68 edit summaries), but maybe some editors will be pacified if it's stated firmly whether the majority of sources matters. I'm reading in: reliable sources that wouldn't violate wp:blp. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

As you mention, it went "nowhere" at BLP/N, because consensus is against you, and only activist editors support the BLP claim. You forgot to mention the there was (still open) a related thread at the FRINGE noticeboard as well, and that the attempts to appeal to WP:WTW has not worked, and has resulted in a move to rewrite the Guideline.

That would seem to raise the question of WP:FORUMSHOPPING, because the opinion an admin stated in a previous close is not a legal precedent, for starters, so maybe this is also a bit of , too.

Accordingly, if anything, a BOOMERANG would be in order here, but it bears mentioning that the fact that some editors think you are flirting with AE has already been raised, on your talk page as well, I believe.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 14:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit is wrong about wp:blpn (there was no consensus), half-right about wp:ae (I was threatened but the canvassing against me went nowhere), wrong about wp:forumshopping (if it were true then everybody who goes to wp:ani would be guilty). Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place to settle a content dispute, which should be done by going through dispute resolution. It's one thing for someone to be blatantly violating BLP, but in this case it's a difference of opinion between calling him "skeptic" and "denier." I would vote "denier," as that is clear from the sources. But administrators don't run one-person tribunals adjudicating such disputes, so it doesn't matter if the admin in question is here or not. They are not super-users with superior powers of judgment. Sometimes quite the opposite is the case. Coretheapple (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

When an admin closes an AN/I thread, s/he does not create some kind of binding principle. Cardamon (talk) 09:12, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. S/he may, however, articulate a settled consensus interpretation of policy, as TParis did here. Guy (Help!) 09:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

As may any editor. Admins don't have any special role in terms of deciding what is the proper way to apply policy. Coretheapple (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Right, but my own opinion is that we should have firm policy against that sort of descriptor in the infobox of lead sentence. Even if the person calls himself such, it shouldn't be in the first sentence. That we permit otherwise is in my opinion of perversion of the policy of WP:NPOV, and the two supporting guidelines on WP:OR and WP:SYN. We'll still have to argue about how to say it, but it won't have the same focus. DGG ( talk ) 02:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The proposed use of "skeptic" is a case of quote mining, neglecting the context.

The first sentence of the lead of the Wikpedia article on climate change denial reads (underlining added)

Climate change denial is a denial or dismissal of the scientific consensus on the extent of global warming, its significance, or its connection to human behavior, especially for commercial or ideological reasons.

The second sentence of the Watts BLP reads

He operates Watts Up With That?, a weather and climate change blog that focuses on the global warming controversy and his opinion that the human role in global warming is insignificant.

This sentence has a citation with the quote, "One of the highest trafficked climate blogs is wattsupwiththat.com, a website that publishes climate misinformation on a daily basis".

The Misplaced Pages article on environmental skepticism clearly distinguishing it as not being scientific skepticism, and there are other sources for that. Non-specialist mass media cites that use "skeptic" are not as reliable as a notable climatologist published in book for by an academic press.

Mann's opinion represents the scientific consensus on Watt's blog, as he appears to be the only RS scientist bothering to publish a comment; there isn't any SYNTH or OR involved in citing his statement in the lead as representative of the mainstream view. The only point of contention is whether or not Mann's view is the mainstream view.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 09:50, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• In most cases we should refrain from descriptive hotbutton terms unless virtually all sources use such a descriptor and then we must attribute it exhaustively. I would prefer that in the case of Watts, we not follow the lead of news sources and instead say that he (his blog) disagrees with or contests the scientific consensus on climate change.--MONGO 12:44, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I endorse completely what MONGO said above, and I meant to include this point in my comment. Cherry-picky descriptors of this sort is very common, and illegitimate. For anyone sufficiently controversial, you can pretty much find a short quotation or phrase that says alsmost anything. It's another reason for graat caution and for avoiding such characterizing phrases. Complex positions on issues cannot be fairly reduce d to one word, and anyone who tries however good their intentions is likely to be inaccurate. As for the question in the headline here, if the quote given is representative, then I (and MoNGO) would definitely not endorse the 4th sentence of what TParis said as being proper NPOV policy. DGG ( talk ) 03:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• MONGO is correct. "Denier" is a known pejorative with no other purpose than to link him to holocaust denial. We have an alternative term that is widely used in sources called "skeptic" which avoids the BLP violation of linking Watts to the Holocaust (any link, no matter how slight is unacceptable). --DHeyward (talk) 06:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Would wish to clarify that my amateur opinion of the blog whatsupwiththat is that it has presented inaccurate data to support the premise that the scientific consensus on climate change is not fully accurate. I do not think that that blog is always wrong as some information posted there is accurate, but not enough that it could be used ever as a source to discredit the scientific consensus. Even given that, the bottom line is that in a BIO and especially a BLP, hotbutton descriptors are not needed to convey the appropriate message that the blog is not a reliable source, regardless of what other sources say about that blog or the blogger himself.--MONGO 13:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DHeyward It is patently false that editors characterizing Watts' blog as a "climate change denialism" blog are trying to "link him to holocaust denial". WP:NPA

Making recourse to "holocaust denial" in this context is WP:OR, at best, as not a single RS that characterizes him as a "(climate change) denier" engaged in "(climate change) denialism", or running a "(climate change) denialst blog", etc., does so. --Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 15:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

1. Sources include:

References

1. Dunlap, Riley E. and McCright, Aaron M. (2011). "Climate Change Denial: Sources, actors, and strategies". In Constance Lever-Tracy (ed.). Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0-415-54478-5.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Klein, Naomi (November 9, 2011). "Capitalism vs. the Climate". The Nation. Retrieved 2 January 2012.
3. Dunlap, Riley E.; McCright, Aaron M. (2011). Dryzek, John S.; Norgaard, Richard B.; Schlosberg, David (eds.). The Oxford Handbook of Climate Change and Society. Oxford University Press. p. 153. ISBN 0199566607. "the most popular North American blogs are run by a retired TV meteorologist (wattsupwiththat.com).
4. Farmer, G. Thomas; Cook, John (2013). Climate Change Science: A Modern Synthesis: Volume 1-The Physical Climate. Springer Science & Business Media. One of the highest trafficked climate blogs is wattsupwiththat.com, a website that publishes climate misinformation on a daily basis.

IBAN violation by Catflap08

NOTE that this thread was copied from AN as this seems to be the more appropriate place. JZCL 07:44, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08 (talk · contribs) and I were made subject to an IBAN a few weeks ago. Last week, Catflap08 showed up suddenly in a discussion I had initiated, and commented on some of my edits; I reported this, but it was borderline and there was no result.

A few weeks before the ban, I had removed some references from the Kokuchūkai article that didn't back up the statements that were sourced to them, and I also (a little before the IBAN) removed an inappropriate primary source and the claim that was referenced to it. Catflap08 the other day manually reverted these edits. If suddenly showing up and commenting on an edit I made (he did that again too, BTW) is not a violation, then surely reverting my edits is? He also admitted both then and now on the talk page that the refs he re-added are unrelated to the article content, so please don't respond by saying that even though it does violate the IBAN it's a harmless improvement to the article.

Sturmgewehr88 (talk · contribs) reverted the edits as an IBAN violation that was also in violation of NOR and V, Catflap08 re-reverted, while copy-pasting text that I had previously removed and attaching a source I added to the article that (1) he clearly hasn't read and (2) doesn't back up the claim.

Could someone please tell him that he is not allowed revert my edits under the terms of the IBAN?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:08, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He also stated on the talk page before the IBAN that he was aware of my edits and was opposed to them, meaning he waited until the IBAN was in place to revert me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He has since copy-pasted the article (Including signed comments by me) into his userspace and started drafting further additions and subtractions to make the page look more like it did before I edited it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:54, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap is continuing to devote his on-wiki activity exclusively to undoing my work on the Kokuchukai article, including large chunks of text either not relevant to the subject or not directly supported by the sources. He has also altered a sourced statement to say something that the source doesn't say, apparently solely in order to fan the flames (the point is one he argued with me for months, ultimately leading to the IBAN). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:55, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

So, if you add or removed anything, ever, to the article, at any time, you think its a violation of the IBAN to have it undone? Even weeks or months later? AlbinoFerret 14:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

He expressed opposition to my edits, waited until an IBAN was in place so that I couldn't effectively defend them, knowingly reverted these edits, and continued to do so even after told to stop. How is this remotely appropriate? Am I allowed go around reverting his edits as well? or is there a time limit, and I'm allowed go around reverting his edits as long as they were made more than a month ago? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:47, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that an admin needs to clarify about the time. You might also seek clarification from the admin that enacted the IBAN. AlbinoFerret 18:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

When the violation took place I went straight to the enacting admin, and was told he didn't want to deal with it, so I should go to AN -- I got no response whatsoever on AN, so the thread was moved here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

• WP:IBAN states "if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to ... undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". It makes no mention of time frames. So AFAICS Catflap08's reverts are indeed in violation of the IBAN. I'd welcome more input by other uninvolved administrators. Black Kite (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• I had always understood it to refer to reverting edits made after the institution of the IBan. If not, then on any article whatsoever, each party would have to research to find out if the other party had ever edited there, then read all of the edits they made to see what material changed, then find out if any intervening changes to the material were made by any other editors, and only then, once all those hurdles had been cleared, could the first party alter the material. I think that's extremely unreasonable, and much too broad a reading of the intent of the IBan. BMK (talk) 22:51, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@BMK: It's pretty hard to revert a particular user's edits without knowing who that user is. You are referring to accidental good-faith new edits to the article, not reversions. The problem here is that I made specific edits to the article before the IBAN (not long before, mind you) and now Catflap is directly reverting those edits. And it's all academic, since Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine, and continued reverting after being told that his edits were reverts of mine. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement " Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine" and the diff do not match. There is no admitting that he know what edits are yours, the diff says they dont want to discuss your edits or statements because they are problematic. That is not the same, its a generalized statement. I also agree with BMK that researching every edit in the past is unreasonable, even new edits after a week to a month depending on how active the article is. After say 50 to 100 edits or so unless you have one hell of a memory its going to take a lot of research.AlbinoFerret 03:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He stated that he had looked at the edits and considered them problematic -- how on earth could have done this without also knowing the edits were mine? He even called them "Hijiri`s ... edits"! Also, given that in the last sixteen months the only two users who have substantially edited the article are Catflap08 and myself, and the fact that the conflict on that article (and over whether the Miyazawa Kenji article should call him a nationalist) was a major reason contributing to the original call for an IBAN, your "50 to 100 edits or so" comment is pretty irrelevant. Also, how do you explain his joining in a discussion I started, a discussion of an edit I made? And the fact that he mostly stopped editing while the last AN thread on his IBAN violations was open, waited until it was archived without result, and when he came back he immediately started reverting me again? It's inconceivable that all of these were just good-faith mistakes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is the statement he made " I`d rather not comment too much on Hijiri`s comments or edits as I personally find them to be problematic." Nowhere in there is a statement about specific edits. As to your thoughts on the 50 to 100 edits, you do realize that if there is no limit in the past, that you are going to have to look at every edit ever made before changing anything to make sure your edit does not revert something he did right? So if he changed a few words here or there, your going to have to check if a word you want change was changed by him in the entire history of the article. AlbinoFerret 12:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He was answering another user's (User:Snow Rise's) query about the specific edits he would later revert. He referred to these as "Hijiri's edits". What is the question here? Additionally, Catflap does not need to go back and look at every single edit to know that the edit he is specifically going out of his way to revert is mine. I do not need to be concerned about being accused of violating the IBAN in the same way because (as much as it would benefit the project as a whole) I am not interested in going around tracking down Catflap's old edits and reverting them. And in this case the edits aren't even that old! Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... hello? Feels like I'm shouting into an echo chamber here. User:Sturmgewehr88 pointed out to Catflap on the article talk page that his edits constitute IBAN violations and User:Black Kite agreed but asked for more objective input. So far the only two other users who have weighed in have either (a) apparently not recognized that Catflap went back through my edits to the article in order to revert specific portions of them and reinsert the exact text that was there previously (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident) or (b) failed to recognize that Catflap specifically acknowledged that the edits he was reverting were made by me before he reverted them, and was also directly reminded that they were mine afterward, before re-reverting them (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident).

Anyone else wanna weigh in? Maybe warn or block Catflap? Revert to the better version of the article before the IBAN-violating/OR-infested edits? If this thread gets archived with no result I'm just going to have to un-archive or reopen it, so...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment Umm, no, you're not "going to have to" do anything of the sort. You have brought something here that you felt was an incident requiring community (in general) and administrator (in particular) attention. During the three days since there has been all sorts of activity on this board, so you can be sure that administrators and editors within the community have looked over your issue and have, fairly clearly, decided that currently it does not warrant their attention. You may not be happy with that decision by the community; it may be a poor outcome for you; it may even be a poor outcome for the community; none of those points, however, mean that you "have to un-archive or reopen it". That would, in mine opinion, be close to a disruptive action, ignoring the consensus that you don't agree with.

I suggest you scrupulously adhere to the IBAN, work with others in the community to improve the article and as many others of the two million (or whatever it is now that there are) that you feel like and wait. If this Catflap is as evil and Machiavellian as you seem to think, we'll discover it soon enough; if not, yay! Cheers, Lindsay 08:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:LindsayH: Please read the note at the top: I did not post anything here three days ago. I posted this thread on the much less active WP:AN (on the specific advice of an admin). In several days of the thread being open there was not a single response (presumably because that page is not as active as this one); I posted more as Catflap continued violating the IBAN again and again. After several days, confused, I asked what had happened and if I had misplaced the thread, and apparently I had. Another user moved it here for me, but I suspect that by then it had already passed the IDHT threshold. That, presumably, is what confused both BMK and AlbinoFerret, and AlbinoFerret's further questioning and my answering pushed this thread even further into IDHT territory. So far one admin has unambiguously stated that they believe the IBAN was violated and some others have found holes in my complaint that I have readily filled for them. Prematurely-archived threads do not count as "consensus to do nothing", and de-archiving or reopening them is quite common practice. Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted); the thread was prematurely archived, so I posted on the talk page of one of the admins who had posted and they de-archived it for me.

I would be happy to continue to comply by the mutual IBAN -- I have been doing so for close to a month now. But by letting this direct reverting of my edits fly you are now telling me that you think the IBAN is not mutual, because Catflap08 is allowed directly revert my edits and I am apparently still not allowed revert his. It's not "Machiavellian", though -- Catflap has been quite flagrant about his reverting my edits, even continuing to do so after being told by a third party to stop. I suspect what happened was that two weeks into the IBAN he showed up and joined a talk page discussion I had started, and evaded sanctions for that, which emboldened him do go and directly revert my edits.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I don't believe I was "confused" about anything, as I read both AN and AN/I. BMK (talk) 15:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I can echo your post BMK, I am not confused and also watch AN/I and AN. AlbinoFerret 18:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh geez, who could have ever predicted this? I'll get to agreeing adamantly with those who have already responded here with regard to how inappropriately Hijiri approaches these situations and to detailing how the "boy who cried wolf" effect might explain, at least in part, why he is not getting the response he is seeking. But let's start by recognizing another fact: the reignition of this drama represents a failure on the part of those of us who took part in the last discussion. This IBAN was never going to work; both editors work in overlapping and fairly niche areas with little buffer between them and neither showed the least suggestion of backing down from any of the content disputes between them that were the proximal cause of the ANI discussion that lead to the IBAN. Add into that battleground attitudes and personalization (to some extent two way but increasingly represented by the inability of one party to just let things go) and its clear this approach was nothing a but guarantee to rubber-band this issue back at the noticeboards in short order. It's pretty silly to recommend as a resolution to an issue that the two incolved editors simply disengage from one-another when the matter in question was that they could not be disengaged. The truth is, after years of watching it in operation, I'm increasingly dubious that an IBAN ever does anything but prolong disruption connected to grudges between editors, but it certainly needs to stop being used in cases like this where the deeper issues are not addressed first.

Now, as to your complaints, Hijiri, I can form that what was suggested to you by others here is true with regard to at least one would-be contributor; I just couldn't see this thread or the matters you raised as urgent, or even necessarily and community oversight, being all to familiar with the context and particulars of your feud. I wouldn't be surprised if other editors saw the names involved and just skipped over it, and I certainly wouldn't blame them. As it happens, I saw both new threads well before you pinged me, and was about to reply several times before being distracted by other issues (on-wiki and off) that undeniably warranted the attention more. It's not the first time you've pinged me into this feud and it's surprising each time because I've been increasingly clear with each iteration of the battle that I view your behaviours to generally be more problematic and disruptive than those of Catflap, especially with regard to seeking out the fight, but at this point I take these actions as part and parcel of your WP:IDHT way of selectively reading what others have tried to tell you about this contest of wills. I've seen so much of it with regard to how your view (and represent) the comments of others who have tried to separate you two that when I see you say something like "Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted)" I don't for a second suspect that I am getting the full story there. Because I have seen you distort the positions of other commenting parties before (my own included) to suggest thorough support for yourself where it did not really exist or was limited to just a minor point. And for the record, I'm not even saying that you're lying; in most of these cases, you seem to genuinely believe the spin that you put on these events and the perspectives of those involved, which is part of what is making this ongoing battle such a particularly intractable mess.

Whether Catflap pushed the edges of the IBAN with any edit, I don't know, though I do know that the particular edits I looked at did not violate it outright. Contrary to your assumption, the IBAN does not guarantee that he can not edit that page in a direction that is contrary to your vision for it, nor is the reverse true. Otherwise IBANs could be gamed to try to force preferred version. All of which is exactly why this IBAN was such a foolish notion in this case, because clearly neither of you wanted to give way on this article and related content, so it was inevitable that you would be lobbing broadsides at eachother in one manner or another. For this reason I'm going to propose that the IBAN be dissolved, that we ask you two gentlemen one last time to try to find a reasonable compromise path forward and, if you fail and the issue becomes disruptive between the two of you, we look at which of the two of you is more deserving of a page or topic ban regarding this subject the two of you cannot let go. Whether or not I am successful in convincing others to follow that approach though, I highly recommend that you let this issue go for now, before you get smacked with the biggest WP:BOOMERANG this side of the Blue Mountains. Because the situation doesn't even warrant discussion of whether you or anyone thinks Catflap is Machiavellian; he wouldn't nearly need to be when all he has to do is what he's doing now -- hang back, say absolutely nothing and let you torpedo yourself. But look on the bright side here, you've got at least one detailed response now. Snow 04:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Okay, all but one user (the only admin, and the only one who didn't previously express support for Catflap's position, I might add) seems to here be ignoring the fact that I presented specific evidence that Catflap reverted my edits after explicitly acknowledging that they were my edits. It has nothing to do with "editing the article away from ny preferred vision". The fact that a single previous AN thread (not two) got archived with no result after one user agreed that Catflap had violated the IBAN and one disagreed is not evidence that I have been "crying wolf"; if anything, it is evidence that the latest, more serious violation should be taken more seriously. Why is Catflap allowed revert my edits but not I his? Can someone please explain to me how this IBAN is mutual if one of the parties is refusing to abide by it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

An IBAN does not just mean that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward. Even if that were the case, it's clear (as could be seen at the time) that neither of you were really going to back down on this issue. Those are two of several reasons why it was ill-advised to have instituted an IBAN without those issues first being resolved and it locked us with certainty into a new thread AN thread in short order. As to the "crying wolf" comment, you seem to have misread it -- I was referencing your past battleground behaviour in these matters as the reason why you were not getting the overwhelming flood of interest in this drama you clearly think it deserves. Despite the repeated direct efforts of (and warnings from) both an admin () and the community broadly about following Catflap from page to page looking to re-engage with him and other generally tendentious, combative, and disruptive behaviours, you persisted well past any sense -- and often while citing the "shared" perspectives of other editors who were themselves surprised to learn of their unwavering support for you. Frankly, you more than earned the block Silk Tork had implied was forthcoming if you didn't back off, and if it had been dolled out, likely we'd never have gotten as far as the poorly-considered IBAN.

Look, I'm not even sure how much I disagree with you that Catflap violated at least the spirit of the IBAN and should be called out for it. But these are your chickens come home to roost, my friend. You courted sanction and then only avoided a block for continuing down the path you were on (which you surely would have, as you always have on this issue and with regard to this "opponent") because we instead got steered into this IBAN which was certain to impose itself on the rest of us as soon as you two (inevitably) refused to edit in collaborative fashion on one of the issues neither of you can just let go of. And then you want to cry foul when enough editors don't flock to this nonsense and immediately agree that he should be blocked? Well, I can only say that I think you need to look at this situation again from the perspective of the community volunteers here and in the context of your past behaviour. Snow 09:58, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... I don't think "an IBAN just means that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward": I think that WP:IBAN means what it says, that Catflap08 is "not permitted to ... undo edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". I provided clear and concise evidence that several of my edits (specifically, removing the Stone article as a reference for a piece of information she actually contradicts and stating in the text that Miyazawa Kenji rejected the group's nationalism) were directly undone by Catflap (here and here, respectively). The other edits are all problematic in their own ways, for reasons I painstakingly explained to Catflap on the talk page months ago, and completely undermine my earlier hard work on the article (hard work which you earlier praised and for which Catflap earlier expressed a dislike), but those problems are secondary to the direct reverts. So far every user who has checked these diffs has acknowledged that they are reverts and constitute an IBAN violation by Catflap. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Alright then. Catflap08, apparently you violated the iBan between you and Hijiri. Don't do it again. Drmies (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to go into this circular argument with you for a third time. Several community members here have already explained why the IBAN can't just be a rubber stamp on the last version of an article put forth in a dispute before an IBAN, and I explained that is exactly why the IBAN should not have been insittuted in the first place and have suggested a path forward to resolving that conflict of principles (which you have since !voted in favour of). But even if we take it for granted that Catflap violated the IBAN, you are still missing the larger picture that others have tried at length to impart to you. Because you can argue (and even be completely right about) the technicalities of a particular action taken by another contributor you are in conflict with, but if you bring the matter to AN/ANI, the community members here are going to look at the whole context of the dispute, consider how the IBAN came into effect and why it was deemed necessary and finally ask whether the contributions of either of you are presently worth the disruption you create between you.

Frankly, the truth is that you owe Catflap a huge debt of gratitude for proposing the IBAN. Because without it, you would certainly have been blocked for blatantly ignoring the warnings of an admin (and the recommendation of the community broadly in multiple spaces) to back away from him. If all he wanted was truly to win that content dispute, then he went about it in about the worst way possible, since all he had to do was wait for you to recieve your well-earned block, revert you, and then have the procedural high-ground once/if you were unblocked. Instead, he pushed for an IBAN, seeming to genuinely want to just be through with you. And yeah, you know what, having made that decision and set us down that path, he should have lived with the consequences and not pushed for his version in that article again, if it meant undercutting your edits. And the editors here will probably find cause to see disruption in those actions. But his poor behaviour does not absolve you of your past disruption and WP:BATTLEGROUND outlook that helped set all of this in motion, especially if you are going to keep insisting we put this situation under a microscope...

You keep re-presenting the technicalities of Catflaps edits and whether the constitute reversion, putting up the same evidence again and again and taking any lack of resulting and immediate support for you as evidence that other editors here are either "confused" about these points or that they just aren't looking closely enough. But I assure you, a greater number of us have looked through the edits you keep reposting than you seem to think. Actually, it was while looking through those edits that something occurred to me, something concerning the fact that that you now have explicitly stated that you think it is unacceptable for Catflap to revert your edits on articles with content contested between the two of you. I remembered how you opposed the IBAN at first but then suddenly embraced it, and I can't now help but suspect that the reason is that you recognized that (at least by your own interpretation of the rules) that your version of the disputed content would be the one that would exist in perpetuum. So it seems to me that you believed in the IBAN to the extent that it protected your edits, but you didn't believe in the overall goal it was meant to serve (reducing disruption) enough to abide by the spirit of the community decision and just let this one go past.

But now we have an opportunity to take things in a different direction. If we get a consensus to dissolve the IBAN, and if both you and Catflap still view me as neutral in your content dispute, I will volunteer some time on that talk page to provide a third opinion and hopefully try to bridge the differences of perspective between you two over the sources, to find a compromise solution that is also consistent with policy. If you don't like me in that role, then I recommend WP:DRN, or you could try another RfC. But whatever you do, you're going to have to find a radically different way to approach one-another in the spaces you share in common. Because the only sanctions we have left are blocks and article/topic bans, which I don't think anyone is going to hesitate to consider next time these issues come back here and one or both of you has not been mindful of the amount of rope you have left. And aside from the possible consequences of failing to finally get along and collaborate, it's worth noting that it is just so much easier to reach a middle ground solution that to conduct a months-long campaign of policy battles that draw in and consume the editorial/project energy of your fellow contributors. And yet in addition to being easier, the collaborative approach is also vastly more rewarding.

Please consider what I am saying to you. Having taken an absurd number of paragraphs to make one last effort at making these points explicit, and to draw a distinction between A) what you view as unimpeachable evidence that Catflap is in the wrong in this one instance and B) the whole context that the community will consider when trying to decide what is the most practical and realistic way to stop this disruption once and for all, I know have exceeded the amount of time I was determined not to expend here by a factor of about twenty. But we can all consider our energy well-spent if, when the IBAN is dissolved (if indeed it is), both sides come to the table prepared to compromise and embrace the kind of collaborative approach that serves the encyclopedia best. You two are not meant to be opponents -- you're partners in a project here, and partners of the rest of us, as well. Keep that in mind and you will hopefully never have to worry about the word "ban" coming up in the course of your editorial work again. Snow 06:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: dissolve IBAN, find a more realistic solution to this conflict

See my last posting in this thread (as well as the previous comments diffed at its beginning) to see exactly why an IBAN can accomplish nothing here except to recycle this feud through the noticeboards endlessly. Neither editor has every voiced any interest in letting go of the content issues which brought about the acrimony between them and there is insufficient third party oversight (or even involvement) in the affected pages to keep them from stumbling over eachother's edits and directly butting heads immediately. This was an ill-thought-out community solution (to which I admittedly took part, despite reservations) that needs to be recognized as untenable here, given the circumstances and attitudes of the involved parties. As a first step to finding an actual solution to this conflict, I think the IBAN needs to be dissolved. After that, the best (if still quite underwhelming) suggestion I can give on the next course of action would be to give basic dispute resolution processes one more try. I believe WP:DRN has not yet been explored, for example. If uncivil, non-collaborative, and disruptive behaviours persists, one or both editors should be page/topic banned from the relevant articles/subjects. Snow 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Megasupport (as nom) Snow 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support First off, @Snow Rise: there is no evidence that I am trying to continue the underlying content dispute; I just don't a user with whom I am mutually IBANned reverting my edits. The only reason I initially agreed to the IBAN was because no one ever told me how hard it was to report IBAN violations. I can choose to assume that if I reverted a bunch of Catflap's edits and he reported me he would het just as poor a hearing as I have. But I have no interest in reverting Catflap's edits. So as is this is a de facto one-way IBAN, which no one agreed to.

I would, though, like to hear back from @Sturmgewehr88: and @Black Kite: first, since they appear to have taken the time to go through all the diffs and recognized that Catflap reverted me, not the other way round.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I honestly think Catflap violated the IBAN when he manually reverted Hijiri88's edits. If he's not going to face any consequences, then the IBAN seems pointless. The IBAN should be lifted and both editors given WP:ROPE awaiting further disruption, at which point TBANs will be in order. As an aside, @Snow Rise: I've heard of "strongest support possible" but "megasupport" is a new one :) ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 09:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Well I did just mean it as a one-off effort to combine humor, exasperation, and emphasis, but now I'm thinking it could be a thing; it could certainly get some mileage in this space! ;) Snow 10:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Removal of the IBAN, and may I suggest a path forward, instead placing them both under a 1RR rule. That should end edit warring at least. AlbinoFerret 07:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

That's the best idea I've seen since this discussion began, AF. Of course, it requires they have a third party editing the page, since otherwise they will each really only be able to add content to the page -- meaning that with an inability to remove content there is a risk of it getting glutted with large amounts of often contradictory information as each party tries to drown out the other's message. But then, my impression is that these two could use some outside perspective and a buffer for the present time anyway. Snow 08:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The talk pages of User:RJR3333's sockpuppets

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RJR3333 (talk · contribs) keeps using the talk pages of his WP:Sockpuppets to plead his case about why he should be accepted back into the Misplaced Pages community. As seen at the PaulBustion88 (talk · contribs) talk page, RJR3333 has been explicitly told that he is unlikely to be accepted back into the Misplaced Pages community, but he continues to post about why Misplaced Pages should give him another chance. Not only does he repeatedly mention me at his talk pages, indirectly or directly, mischaracterizing me or what I stated, he acts like I have no right to comment at these talk pages, and that it is WP:Harassment when I do, even when I am defending myself against his mischaracterizions. He also recently had an outburst, and called me a kike (I'm not Jewish or religious, but that is beside the point). After that, he repeatedly reverted me at the PaulBustion88 talk page, calling me a kike in capitalization. Intermittently, he sent me harassing emails (not the first time). Bsadowski1 took away his talk page access, which is what I wanted, and Malik Shabazz removed his capitalized "kike" insults. RJR3333 then moved on to the FDR (talk · contribs) talk page, mentioning me once again and acting like I have no right to comment there; see here. Why should RJR3333 be allowed to continue to post at these talk pages in the way that does, whether it's to ramble on about what a good editor he can be, comment on me or other editors, or make and withdraw an unblock request? Why shouldn't I be allowed to comment at these talk pages? Flyer22 (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

And, yes, as seen here and here, I am the main person catching his WP:Sockpuppets, but I don't see that as a reason to stay away from posting to his talk pages, especially when commenting on his disruption and/or defending myself. It's not like I never give him breathing room to talk to other Wikipedians. I gave him plenty of breathing room at the PaulBustion88 talk page to engage others and get their takes about the possibility of him being accepted back into the Misplaced Pages community. And as for this latest vow from him to not edit Misplaced Pages for six months so that he can get the WP:Standard offer, he always makes that vow; again, see the PaulBustion88 talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Just a heads-up for anyone who's interested, he seems to be taking his fight to simple Wiktionary too (see https://simple.wiktionary.org/search/?title=adult&action=history). I know there's no jurisdiction here over that, but it's something people might like to watch, and if anyone knows how to alert admins over there it might be useful. Mr Potto (talk) 08:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

(At my talk page there he says he doesn't want to fight, so I've suggested he stops mentioning other editors - https://simple.wiktionary.org/User_talk:Mr_Potto. Mr Potto (talk) 09:26, 10 May 2015 (UTC) )

Update: He is still rambling on his talk page, including going on about me in inaccurate ways, but Tiptoety gave him some advice about the WP:Standard offer. Do I think that he should be given the WP:Standard offer? Of course not. Like I stated, he has repeatedly blown that offer, and he continues to edit disruptively, including by getting indefinitely blocked at other wikis. I don't see him ever being a productive Wikipedian or other productive wiki editor. Flyer22 (talk) 02:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

In fact, if I or someone else catches one more of his WP:Sockpuppets, I am going to propose a WP:Ban on him; I might do that before then. Flyer22 (talk) 02:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Case solved: RJR3333 gets to mention me as much as he wants/be as disruptive as he wants at his talk page without any interference from me. Yes, I will be proposing that WP:Ban eventually, and I have no doubt that it will be successful. Flyer22 (talk) 03:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I struck through part of my "03:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)" post because of this. Flyer22 (talk) 03:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I just looked through the history of this case and the talk pages of some of the sock accounts, Flyer22. He is remarkably consistent in his block appeals, the ones from 2011 and 2012 read like ones he made this year, saying that he learned his lesson, if you look at his recent edits, they are good and that he will never sock or vandalize again. And they the cycle just repeats itself. He still believes he is eligible for the Standard Offer even though he has violated every promise he has ever made. Liz 22:27, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Liz, that's why I was upset when Tiptoety suggested that I was antagonizing RJR3333. Yes, I understand that RJR3333 can be annoyed/upset by me commenting on his talk page, but think of how annoyed/upset I am by having to repeatedly deal with his disruption, inaccurate descriptions of me and/or my actions, and derogatory comments/emails. And, like I noted above, "I gave him plenty of breathing room at the PaulBustion88 talk page to engage others and get their takes about the possibility of him being accepted back into the Misplaced Pages community." Yes, someone could state that I am bringing this on myself by interfering with RJR3333 (you know, victim blaming), but RJR3333 continues to edit topics where I will recognize him. It's not like I am actively seeking him out. Furthermore, someone should always interfere with his disruption. Should I just sit back and let him have at it when I spot him messing up articles? This person has been indefinitely blocked at other wikis; he went to those wikis trying to prove that he can edit productively here. And yet we want to give him another shot at the WP:Standard offer? Not me. And for more detail on what I have been through with this editor, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#User:FDR at the Ages of consent in North America article and in general and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive759#Interaction ban between Flyer22 and me. As seen in that first archived discussion, I was not as good then at identifying WP:Sockpuppets as I am now; I was good at it then, but I am significantly better at it now.

On a side note: It sounds like you wouldn't want to give RJR3333 another chance. If so, I'm surprised, since you seem to always want to give disruptive editors another chance. Flyer22 (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I do believe in second chances. For everyone. But at this point, it's sixty chances. His promises to never vandalize or sock again in 2012 are word-for-word the same as in 2015.

Also, the endless attempts at loooong explanations about how pedophilia isn't really pedophilia is a telltale sign that someone is working overtime to justify a point of view they believe others view as unacceptable. Over the past few months, I spent some time reading old talk pages of editors on this wiki and other projects who were offering these same explanations and, you know what? These editors all eventually ended up being blocked, too. Liz 23:51, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, he does distinguish between pedophilia, hebephilia, ephebophilia and child sexual abuse in ways similar to how I and others who are well-versed in those topics do (such as at Talk:Pedophilia; current state of that talk page here), but he is not well-versed in those topics, and he often goes about editing them (or speaking of them) wrongly. Flyer22 (talk) 00:47, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

IJBall, will you clarify why you stated, "The various socks of RJR3333 appear to have been dealt with (see: this SPI case archive)."? I'm fine with this thread having been closed, but it is about RJR3333's disruption on his WP:Sockpuppet talk pages. I wasn't reporting more of his WP:Socks. Flyer22 (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22, when I checked it looked like none of the socks had recent activity on their Talk pages (but it's possible I missed one...); and I think one or more might have had Talk page access revoked. I closed on that basis. But, like I said – it's possible I missed one... --IJBall (talk) 01:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

IJBall, thanks for explaining. The FDR account still has talk page access, as is clear from my "03:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)" post above; it's just that Tiptoety essentially told him not to use that talk page to rant anymore. Either way, as noted above, I will eventually seek that RJR3333 is banned from Misplaced Pages. Flyer22 (talk) 01:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

His repeated claims that he can edit Misplaced Pages productively should not be taken seriously by anyone. Tiptoety being willing to give him another chance is something that I chalk up to Tiptoety not having been through even half of what I have been through with him. Flyer22 (talk) 01:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Eaglestorm refuses to discuss anything

Eaglestorm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems to be entirely unwilling to discuss any changes to any articles, or to even glance at their Talk pages, preferring instead to repeatedly revert against clear consensus. This is evident, for instance, in both the Talk page and the edit history of Ace Combat, where he has repeatedly completely disregarded both. Multiple good-faith requests for collaboration on his own Talk page have been answered by removing the comments with edit summaries like, “my talk page my rules, get lost.” He’s already been blocked more than once for edit warring, which seems completely ineffective at altering his conduct, so I humbly request a conditional block. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 15:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I have requested a full protection at WP:RPP because of the edit warring. As for the user's actions, a little unnecessary if you ask me. Callmemirela (Go Habs Go!) 16:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I really think the pattern of behavior should be addressed rather than a single instance… —174.141.182.82 (talk) 16:50, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree there needs to be an assessment of a pattern of behaviour. I'm just wondering if it is not the anon IP here that should be investigated however. Looking over the recent edit history for this IP, they seem to be doing nothing but attempting to be the wiki policy police and seem to have flawed understanding of the policies they are suggesting should be enforced. If I wasn't the kind of person that exclusively follows WP:AGF as if it was some sort of suicide WP:PACT, then I might be led to believe this IP is a WP:SOCK that attempting to prove some WP:POINT by editing as an IP to WP:EVADE a block or something. I'm sure that the IP would love a little more WP:ROPE and I'm sure we should probably give it to them. I've responded on the talk page for the article that needed request from Callmemirela for protection, that redlinking to a page that doesn't exist whose topic fails GNG so it can never be an article per REDNOT. I've also declined the request for an article by the IP on the WP:WPVG/R page for the same reason, after an intense search the topic fails to meet the GNG (and honestly fails to show any indication of importance at all).

I'm also disappointed that this IP editor that is so keen on requesting others be blocked was not blocked themselves for being disruptive for the following chain of events: made a BOLD edit to the page, was reverted, insisted it was right, was reverted, insisted it was right, was reverted, re-reverted by Drmies (who simply reverted on the grounds that Eaglestorm wasn't discussing, not because they are incorrect that REDNOT says these kinds of redlinks are not appropriate), reverted, then some more stuff happens until the IP admits in Special:Diff/659620279 that the thing they wanted to be a redlink in the first place has no sources and as such fails GNG and redlinks are not allowed per REDNOT. At this point, I believe this IP should have been blocked for their disruptive behavior for initiating an editwar with another user without researching why it was inappropriate for that redlink to exist. I also think that between being forced into an edit war and being harassed by an IP who insisted on continuing to post on their talk page despite being asked not to multiple times (per WP:DENY through calling it a "desperate anon post"), Eaglestorm appeared to be extremely frustrated and of the mindset that this IP is a WP:VANDAL who's WP:NOTHERE and I can't say that I blame him, nor can I blame them for not wanting to come and discuss it because they are likely struggling to stay WP:CALM, and I've honestly been wondering the same thing about this IP. — {{U|Technical 13}} 21:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Barely veiled assumptions of bad faith aside, I made every attempt to calmly and reasonably discuss the matter in good faith, both on the article Talk page and the user’s own, and my edits were in line with the clear consensus among the editors who did discuss. If this user had offered an explanation, whether on the Talk page or in an edit summary, you would have a point. But he didn’t. And unless I have a flawed misunderstanding of blocking policy (namely that blocks should be preventative and not punitive), a block against me is unwarranted at this time. If there’s a problem with my own conduct on Ace Combat, no one has bothered to inform me until now. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 00:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I don't know, desperation play, my talk page my rules. get lost, and my talk page my rules get lost. desperate anon make it pretty clear to me that this editor did not want you posting on their talk page (yet you continued to do so). I'd say that goes against WP:HARASS (I'd almost go so far as to say that it appears to me that you were WP:HOUNDING this registered editor) and is indicative of WP:DISRUPTIVE behavior which is damaging to the encyclopedia in which case a block to prevent you from continuing that behavior might be warranted if an admin felt so inclined. Anyways, it appears to me that the administrators aren't particularly interested in this complaint, and I've not interest in continuing this discussion any further at this point either. — {{U|Technical 13}} 01:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm, yes, that's an interesting set of diffs that clearly allow for two very different interpretations. I wouldn't go as far as to see possible harassment in here, though, and some of the stuff that was removed included notifications and stuff. If Eaglestorm would clearly and unequivocally say "editor X, do not post here anymore" it'd be a different matter. Thanks Technical, Drmies (talk) 01:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• I've already indicated that to them, hopefully I can break the barrier and get some kind of discussion (I'm tempted to go to email if needed). — {{U|Technical 13}} 02:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

More to the point: As best I can tell, this user never discusses anything. That’s the issue that brought me here—not that he won’t talk to me, but to anyone. This encyclopedia is a collaborative project, but it’s arguably impossible to effectively collaborate with someone who never communicates, especially when going against consensus. I never wanted him blocked out of malice or spite; it’s a stretch to say I want him blocked at all, but I only want him blocked until he shows a willingness to communicate with other editors (especially when making reversions). If I’m wrong in any of this, then, again, please let me know. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 01:15, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Fine, they don't communicate on talk pages (perhaps they're not English speaking or have some other reason they avoid discussion). I realize discussion is important, but who are you to demand that this user communicate and who are you to initiate an edit war with an editor who has been around over a decade and has 12,536 local edits to back up their experience. — {{U|Technical 13}} 01:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

  @Technical 13: I haven’t gone through his edit history enough to know how many of those edits were reverted as being against consensus or otherwise improper, but if I ever have the time and inclination to do so, I’ll be able to better answer your question. But for the time being: I’m a more communicative user who has been frustrated by silent reverts seemingly made per WP:ABF, and I’m clearly not the only one. Now, if you wouldn’t mind explaining, why are you being so defensive of him and aggressive toward me? If that answer doesn’t require administrative attention, please post it to my Talk page rather than here. Thanks. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• FWIW, editors who refuse to discuss tirritate the hell out of me, and Eaglestorm is one of those. There's nice, healthy talk page discussion in which they are not participating. I don't see how the IP is so disruptive: their edit summaries are much better than Eaglestorm's and they're participating in talk page discussion (as is Technical). It's hard for me to judge the content of the edits since it's all just fan stuff on a completely trivial topic that a real encyclopedia ought to be embarrassed about, but hey. (I mean, what on earth is this about, what is its content, what are its sources--we're citing this as a reference?) Anyway, as far as I'm concerned Eaglestorm looks the worst of them, and we have blocked editors for being incommunicado; it might well be that this one is next. They could, of course, start talking here in this thread, and sound like an adult. Drmies (talk) 01:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I understand Drmies, and I don't disagree that Eaglestorm should respond to someone, someplace. — {{U|Technical 13}} 01:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
• I don't see what the IP might've done to deserve Technical 13's unabated and bitter criticism. Some of the comments he's made are especially worrying: where he appears to look down on the IP for no other reason than their being an IP, and where he - seemingly - questions the importance of communication. With respect, Technical 13, you're not making the situation here any better. Alakzi (talk) 02:29, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
  • "unabated and bitter criticism"? Interesting take on it, I simply don't see it that way. I don't begrudge constructive editors for not wanting to create an account (and actually I've campaigned for their rights to edit as IPs in the past and continue to do so). However, when an IP editor who has no verifiable background takes it upon themselves to be disruptive to discussions and pages by edit warring without justification and insists that the changes they made must be applied quoting a policy that they apparently hadn't read. If they had actually read the policy, they'd know they need to check that what they want to redlink actually could be an article. Then that IP refuses to WP:DROP the stick when an editor tells them that such redlinks aren't allowed and ignores repeatedly being asked to stop posting on said editor's talk page about such silliness as a redlink to a topic that would be quickly deleted if it was created as an article about a topic that isn't encyclopedic in the first place... Then that IP editor has the nerve to drag a well established editor to ANI because they wouldn't state the obvious (for whatever reason, such as maybe it being obvious), then I suspect that some investigation as to why this IP editor is hitting dozens of pages deprecating template uses, insisting policy pages be changed because of some flawed perception of some law that pages must follow with no exceptions and attempting to wikilaywer their will to be done then that reeks to me as a fairly wikiyoung editor evading a block and attempting to cause as much disruption as they can. I'd expect that an SPI investigation of said IP isn't out of the question, although I suspect that I'll have to spend a day digging through archives and whatnot and try to duck duck goose this IP for anything to be done about it if they don't hang themselves in the meantime. — {{U|Technical 13}} 03:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
    • If they have been doing something wrong, calmly explain what it is. You don't need to go off on a prolix, character-smearing investigation of their hypothetical motives and motivations. Your style of argument is simply counterproductive and does nothing to ease tensions or to resolve any of the issues. Alakzi (talk) 03:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
    • I believe I gave justification. And the other editor pretty much refused to. As for the rest, I’m not going to defend myself here for unrelated events unless you wish to start a thread about me, but feel free to request a WP:CheckUser if you wish. I’ve explained my other actions elsewhere already. Now please stop assuming bad faith of me; I got quite enough of that from Eaglestorm, and that was mostly unspoken. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 03:47, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
      • Replied to the rest on Tech’s Talk. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 04:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
        • The very beginning of my post here says that I exclusively WP:AGF, and now you're accusing me of ABF. Yet, I am going to choose to not get upset about that WP:PA, and instead am going to encourage you to read WP:AOBF. I've also responded to your second post to my talk page, but I (edit conflict)ed with it and don't have the energy to respond to the "additions" you made since it is almost 1AM. Good night. — {{U|Technical 13}} 04:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
          • Accusing me of being here to cause disruption, for one. AOBF: “The result could be accusations of bad faith on your part” should explain my ABF accusation. But hopefully we’re both done with that. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 05:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
            • I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm simply commenting my observations. I view your actions as disruptive. This simply falls under WP:Call a spade a spade. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
• I have reviewed the recent contributions of Eaglestorm and find that there are valid grounds for this complaint. For the number of reverts he/she performs, they hardly ever takes part in talk page discussions. (The last contribution to the article talk namespace was 2 December 2014.) This behaviour is not compatible with collaborative editing. I have watchlisted the user talk page and will likely block for a fortnight if this recurs, on consideration of the number of previous blocks for similar behaviour. I find Technical 13's steadfast defence of this behaviour strange and unhelpful. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I have not defended and am not defending Eaglestorm's lack of participation in discussion. I've personally attempted to reach out and get this editor to participate in discussions. To me it was just a matter of pointing out that this user was right that the redlink trying to be forced into the article was inappropriate. I appreciate your criticism of my behaviour, as evidently the reason I first commented here was missed. My point was that this IP needs to be watched as well because I've found their insistance on pushing changes against consensus and against policy and refusing to drop the stick after being told "no, that's not how it works here" and given an explicit reason as to why with links to whatever may be appropriate they still push forward with their insistence. I equate this IP to my child in the backseat asking "but whhhyyyyyy can't I have it" after I've told them they can't have an ice cream sundae at 9pm just before bed and explained how it will keep them awake and cause them discomfort when they wake up in the middle of the night after finally getting to sleep because they are a little lactose intolerant and it doesn't get processed quickly enough when they are asleep. Anyways, I've stated my case (and responded to too many "but whyy" from the IP here in this discussion as it is). Need to get back to school work. — {{U|Technical 13}} 12:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
    • You've had the timeline explained to you: nobody at the time considered the possibility that an article on the topic would not be notable; Eaglestorm was not "right". The IP got a little impatient, but we all do sometimes. Your characterisation of the IP as a child is unwarranted. If you continue down this path, the thread concerning your behaviour should be unarchived. Alakzi (talk) 13:04, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
      • So, you are claiming that because no-one else had thought to check if the topic was even notable, that Eaglestorm was wrong and the redlink should have been allowed against long-standing policy and consensus because an IP and a couple of editors said it seemed reasonable without doing any checking? Really? Then, you are going to back up your claim that despite being backed with WP:REDNOT and the WP:GNG, it didn't matter that Eaglestorm was right that such redlinks are not permitted. Finally, you're going to suggest that a new thread about my behaviour for defending WP:REDNOT and the WP:GNG should occur (because unarchiving the last thread to talk about this entirely different topic wouldn't be appropriate)? Do what you will, if you want to start a new thread on me for that, go for it, I won't be particularly offended. Anyways, this thread has gotten completely off-topic and should probably be left to fade away and die... If you think a new thread is appropriate, by all means feel free to create it. — {{U|Technical 13}} 13:29, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
        • Eaglestorm did not cite WP:REDNOT or WP:GNG. The first time, he said "makes sense NOT to link to nonexistent article", which does not address the possibility of it being notable, or not; the second time, he accused the IP of a COI. You're conflating their being right with the outcome being right; the two are quite distinct. I'm not sure if you appreciate the offence you've caused - why would you jauntily invite me to start a new thread on your behaviour? It would be better for everybody if you were to simply apologise for comparing the IP with a baby, or for insinuating that they might be evading a block, or for any of the rest, really. Alakzi (talk) 13:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
          • @Alakzi: Thank you for that. @Technical 13: I don’t know whether you’re trying to bait me in a public setting (you’ve been much more civil toward me on your own Talk page), or you’re just failing to filter yourself, but please just stop it. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Issue with large-scale changing of terminology...

Dan Koehl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Recently Dan began a widespread replacement of the term "Viking" with the "Norsemen" across many articles. This follows various debates over the last year or so (if memory serves) about when, where and how it is most appropriate to use these terms in articles, which carry subtly different meanings among scholars and non-scholars, and which translate differently (I believe) between English and Scandinavian languages.

There have been various interventions about these changes, including: Talk:Vikings#Former_viking; Talk:Battle of the Conwy#Norsemen; Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Norse history and culture#Campaign to replace "viking" by "Norsemen". Among the points raised by @Mutt Lunker:, @Johnbod:, @CambridgeBayWeather: and @PatHadley: and myself on Dan's talk page have been the perceived lack of consensus for these changes, and the apparent technical errors made in the process (e.g. renaming the titles of cited works, changing the content of direct quotes etc.). During the course of today, Johnbod, @Dudley Miles: and @Ealdgyth: have raised the issue on my talk page, User talk:Hchc2009#Vikings, variously proposing and expressing support that an administrator be asked to intervene.

I am convinced that Dan is acting in good faith but there is a lack of community consensus for his changes, which appear to be causing some irritation to many editors. Administrator assistance in calming and bringing this episode to a productive conclusion. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Read the dispute resolution policy for ways to deal with a content dispute. Moderated discussion at the dispute

resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments would be two possibilities. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:03, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Super-unhelpful! It's well gone beyond that. He has had the usage of "Viking" in English carefully explained to him by several editors over weeks if not months but takes nothing in, perhaps partly because of his iffy English, but mainly because he won't accept that the meaning of terms in English will often differ from their meaning in other languages. Of course he is acting in "good faith" but these edits to several hundred articles, many producing grossly incorrect English, impose a huge burden on other editors who need to revert them. An immediate block is required. A few examples I've reverted, from hundreds that I haven't: "The town has Norsemen roots in common with..." at Crosby, Merseyside; "Ormen Stutte (Short Serpent) was a Norsemen longship...", at Ormen Stutte (longship); "Later it saw the influence of the Norsemens as seen in the name of Carlingford Lough." at County Louth. All these basic errors are repeated many, many times. Johnbod (talk) 20:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, I agree. This is something that an admin needs to address. GregJackP Boomer! 21:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that explains that change of "Viking" to "Norsemen" on Brooklyn Historical Society. I guarantee that when George B. Post desihned the building in the late 19th century, it was a statue of a Viking he called for, not a Norseman, which is why I reverted the edit. This sounds like another political correctness argument, which, or course, is essentially a POV argument, which eventually leads to the euphemism treadmill: "Viking" is all of a sudden considered to be insulting, so it is replaced by "Norseman", until that becomes insulting and is replaced by something else: "Scandians", maybe.I'd say definitely needs a consensus arrived at in a centralized discussion. BMK (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Just want to clearify, I have changed from viking (activity pirate related) to Norse, in such instances when its clear that the text related to Nnorse people of Scandinavian ancestry. While the term viking is a controversial term, (will not go into details with that) Norse, and Norsemen is certainly not. Therefore I see no harm or dramatic in this, a visitor to Wwikipedia will through the link come to the article about Nnorse people with background to Sscandinavian as an ethnic Nnorse speaking group, rather than to a page with emphasis in pirate activities. My hope is to reduce confusion with this. There is a reason why the project Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Norse history and culture is not called Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Viking history and culture, and since the Nnorse culture were not sleeping or sent away throughout the viking age (800-1066) its perfectly normal to relate to the Nnorse as ethnic group before, during and after the viking age. In cases of raiding s, plunder etc, I have not changed the word viking, only when it replaced the correct for the people, Nnorse. Please don't forget, that even if Eenglish speaking books relates to Scandinavianscnadinavin as pirates and vikings during this period, there was a vital and fruitful Sscandinavian culture, before during an dafter the viking age, and its called Nnorse, and the people Norsemennorsement, they spoke Nnorse. There was no people called viking and no language called vikingish.... Comments regarding large scale; well, some users obviously made large scale links to viking, instead of Norse, when they related to ethnic group, and culture, it was here the error was made, not by me. I hope this clearances. Theres nothing controversial with the term Norsemen, like with viking, not until toady, anyhow. The term Viking is popular among laymen and people moved by the 1800 century romantic stories, but Norse is the term historians and archaeologists use for the ethnic groups in Scandinavia during iron age. clearifies. Dan Koehl (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

(restoring link above) Dan, I'd be grateful if you didn't delete the links that I posted above. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

In the instance I cited above, the source said "Viking", so that's what the article should say. You should not presume to think you know the intent of the source, whether it meant "pirate", "raider", "perfectly nice people from the Northlands" or whatever. Here in the U.S, there is generally no negative connotation to "Viking". All of this is why your mass change is in need of a consensus. BMK (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

And "clarify", the word is "clarify", not "clearify". BMK (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's no use trying to explain English language usages to him, he knows better, which is the whole problem. Regardless of terminology issues, most of his edits are straight ungrammatical - he cannot grasp that, unlike "Viking", "Norsemen" is only a plural noun in English. There is already a very clear and wide consensus against these mass changes, far larger than the average RFC picks up. He needs to be told very firmly to stop making them, or ideally blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs) 23:48, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Dan's bizarrely mistyped and unfocused post above is perhaps an extreme example of his talk postings, to the extent that it may possibly be due to a temporary factor, but it demonstrates that at the very least he does not have sufficient WP:COMPETENCE in the English language to be editing on the English Misplaced Pages, and particularly not regarding the usage of a term which in English has significant differences to its usage in his language. Is such demonstrable incompetence not clear cut grounds to put a temporary block on him as he is resolutely intransigent in acceptance of efforts to explain his misunderstandings regarding both definition of the term and grammar? He's causing mayhem. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

If there's already a consensus about this, then is is allowable for some one with one of the automated program to just undo his edits? I could do it, but my finger would get chafed from all the button pushing. (I don't use automated tools except HotCat). BMK (talk) 00:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Also, unless something has changed, I thought AWB was only supposed to be used for non-controversial edits? These seem controversial to me, which would suggest that perhaps his right to use AWB should be revoked. BMK (talk) 01:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I've asked that question at WP:AWB. BMK (talk) 01:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• I have to say, that I find it not polite to try to make this discussion a personal issue, rather than focus on the subject.
• When YOU accuse me of making large-scale changing of terminology, I wish to remind you, that someone did this before, but the other way around, linked everything Norse to the article viking, which is such an amateur porridge of non-science that it will never be a real article, until someone gets the bright idea and start to write about vikings on the article vikings, and let the article Norsemen be an article about the Norse people in general
• The term Norsemen is over 1 000 years old, and I find it amusing that you ask for a consensus for its existence.
• Norsemen were so much more than the trapped comic strip archetype you have made them to in the article viking.
• I ask you please stop this crusade and accept that when speaking about language, culture, ethnicity, the word viking is hopelessly wrong to use, while the old word Norse is natural and correct.
• I believe we all want a better Misplaced Pages. My suggestion is that we put some faith to the members in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Norse history and culture. Just repeat prestigious claims of "traditions" isn't enough to develop this, you need to to think outside your box.
• Like the Norse did.
• I guess and hope that no one wants to remove our history, culture and ethnical ancestry, and remove the pages Norsemen and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Norse history and culture? And if you don't want to remove those pages, I hope you don't want to remove links to the pages either.
• And I hope you will not remove all the written sources on Misplaced Pages, that makes it clear for a 7 year old child, that Norse and Viking was not the same thing:

1. The first documented use of the word viking is made by Orosius, written in latin, and translated into old english. There is to read about Alexander the Great´s father, Philip II of Macedonia: Philippus vero post longam obsidionem, ut pecuniam quam obsidendo exhauserat, praedando repararet, piraticam adgressus est. translated into:ac he scipa gegaderade, and i vicingas wurdon. In this time the word pirat was not used in the english language, the latin piraticamwas directly translated to vicingus.

- You complain about my english, I hope you can read your own (old-english) language above, and what it says? (I can...)

-No, Macedonia is not in Scandinavia... And in the Icelandic sagas even arabs are described with the word Viking, when they are attacking the Norse ships...

2. King Harald the Hairfair heard that the vikings, who were in the West sea in winter, plundered far and wide in the middle part of Norway; and therefore every summer he made an expedition to search the isles and out-skerries (1) on the coast. Wheresoever the vikings heard of him they all took to flight, and most of them out into the open ocean. At last the king grew weary of this work, and therefore one summer he sailed with his fleet right out into the West sea. First he came to Hjaltland (Shetland), and he slew all the vikings who could not save themselves by flight. Then King Harald sailed southwards, to the Orkney Islands, and cleared them all of vikings. Thereafter he proceeded to the Sudreys (Hebrides), plundered there, and slew many vikings who formerly had had men-at-arms under them.

-King Harald would never agree that he was a viking-king, he was, like probably 99% of Scandinavian Norsemen were, fighting vikings.

3. Egil Skallagrimsson about Bjørn Farmann: Björn var farmaður mikill, var stundum í víking, en stundum í kaupferðum; Björn var hinn gervilegasti maður. (english: Björn was a great traveller; sometimes as viking, sometimes as tradesman.)

Only with those three examples (and theres hundreds) you will have extremely difficult to explain what a viking is, and what difference there is between vikings and normal people from Scandinavia, if you stubbornly use the same word for two different meanings.

For over 1 000 years viking was just a translation of the word pirat until the fifties, when Americans wanted to call everything Scandinavian viking. And very MUCH simplifying thing with that, and later making it complicated.

This is probably the reason why the article viking is still on start level after 13 years on Misplaced Pages. Because in order to get the stories there OK; a lot of facts and sources must be excluded. With this concept you will never reach a good article, it will remain pubertal comic strip "information", and people have to translate the German article about vikings to get some scientific substance.

But Im not telling you what to do, Im just saying that there is no need for a consensus that I am from Sweden, and have blue eyes, there is no need for a consensus that the sky is blue, and there is no need for a consensus, that the correct term in English for my people, their culture, and medieval language is Norse. You can't change this by voting.

So why, did you revert my links to the the page Norsemen, when I only did the links in text where it was clear that there was reference to people and a culture, and not to raiding pirates?

And please remember, its not me who use my language to call you things which is not true, so could you please give a little respect to my ancestors, and stop calling them pirates? You have stopped calling other people with different skin colors for names you used for hundreds of years, it must be possible to quit this game of "all Scandinavians ARE vikings" game?

Vikings could be arabs practising piracy, and vikings could be macedonian kings practising piracy, but peaceful Norse farmers, and their wife's, were never, ever, described as vikings before 1900!

Dan Koehl (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, User:Dan Koehl should be blocked for disruptive editing unless he will agree to stop making these changes. And his access to WP:AWB should be immediately withdrawn. See his contributions for all the usage of AWB to change Vikings to Norsemen. AWB must not be used to make controversial edits. EdJohnston (talk) 03:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

1. I stopped over 24 hours ago. 2. Can you please explain to me, what is controversial by making a link to Norsemen from a chapter that tells about Norsemen? If Im from Sweden, would you also forbid me to make a link to Swedish, and block me, if I don't make a link from my person to Viking? Whay shall everything Norse be linked to Viking, and not to Norse?

Or, put it the other way around, what can, according to your opinion, be linked to Norsemen?

Dan Koehl (talk) 03:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

If you don't see why this is controversial I wonder if we should take seriously any promises from you to behave better. EdJohnston (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

When multiple other editors object to your mass edits, they are, by definition "controversial", especially when you do not have a consensus to back them up. Therefore, I second EdJohnston's suggestions. Dan Koehl should be blocked until he agrees not to change "Vikings" or "Viking" to "Norsemen" (in whatever form), and his AWB rights should be removed immediately, unless and until he can show that he will not use the program to make non-consensus edits. BMK (talk) 04:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of a block, or a topic ban, or not, the AWB rights do need to be revoked immediately – only editors that demonstrate competence with special tools should be allowed to maintain them, and that has definitely not been the case in this instance. --IJBall (talk) 04:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to summarize: you claim that Norsemen and Vikings are the same? But when I make a link to Norsemen from an article where its easy, from the text to define that the text is about Norsemen, this is controversial? Is it only controversial if I link to Norsemen, but not to viking, is this the logic? And, making links from text about Norsemen, to the article Norsemen is such a crime, that you speak about blocking me, remove rights to AWB etc, this almost sounds like what happened some hundreds years ago with the guy who claimed that earth is not flat...

Where is the will of cooperation, where is the will of making both articles better, where is the will of making this all understandable for the website visitor, where is the will to improve Misplaced Pages? I only see politics here?

I must ask again, why don't you delete everything written with the word Nors, or Norsemen, if its not OK to make links to the article?

I think I need to remind you what is written in Norsemen:

Norsemen refers to the group of people who spoke what is now called the Old Norse language between the 8th and 11th centuries. The language belongs to the North Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages, and is the earlier form of modern Scandinavian languages.

Norseman means "person from the North" and applied primarily to Old Norse-speaking tribes who settled in southern and central Scandinavia. They established states and settlements in England, Scotland, Iceland, Wales, the Faroe Islands, Finland, Ireland, Russia, Greenland, France, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, and Poland, as well as outposts in Sicily and North America.

All the links I did to the article where from text where it was relevant to link to Norsemen, why do you speak like if I have made a crime? If I would have made links from 100% of the text I could understand, but like I said, I didn't make links from text where it was about raiding and piracy, I made links where the norse people where discussed. If Norsemen are not banned on Misplaced Pages, what is wrong with making a link to them?

Dan Koehl (talk) 05:27, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

OR, if anyone here claims that Viking and Norse are synonymous, can you please point me to a consensus about hat? And if they are the same, what is wrong with links between them? Why must 100% of the links be to viking?? But if they are not synonymous, can anyone here explain you position, what is according to you the difference between Norsemen and vikings, making it a crime to link text about Norsemen to Norsemen, and good if text about Norsemen is linked to article viking? Where are the discussions, the decisions, the consensus for all this?

You are speaking to me as if I have made a crime, and I want to tell you, I'm a user on Misplaced Pages since 2002, Im admin on 2 Wikimedia projects, I fight vandalism almost every day (see my log) and I'm not a criminal, and I can't see that anyone can logically even explain what I have done wrong, except for coming up with opinions, that a certain text should be linked to article viking, and not to Norsemen, but without a valid reason or explanation? All I want is to improve Misplaced Pages. Dan Koehl (talk) 05:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you have "made a crime" - in your twisted English idiom - and that is that you have made major changes to the encyclopedia without having the approval of the community to do so. This is not the place to get approval for doing so; here, admins can only sanction you; for not getting approval, because this board only deals with aberrant behavior. Approval has to come (and I believe this is the fourth time I'm saying this) from a centralized discussion of the entire Misplaced Pages community and not just from the approval of a mere Wiki{Project. I believe that the senze of this discussion is that you must stop making those edits until that consensus is determined. If you do not stop, it appears to me that there are a number of Admins who are willing to make you stop by blocking you. If that is what you want, to be blocked from editing, keep on doing what you're doing -- knowing that there are a number of editors who will revert your edits as being non-consenual, and you will end up being blocked. If, instead, you wish to deal with this in the Wikipedian way, you need to begin the centralized discussion I mentioned above, and produce straightforward and understandable' evidence to support your position. Really, the choice is yours. BMK (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

As I stated yesterday above, I havnt made any edits since two days now. You most probably know that, but try politically to make it look like Im breaking rules etc. Sad. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's try again. I'm not sure how it's still possible that there are still misunderstandings in this thread but, since Dan Koehl is using lots of bulleted lists: here's my attempt to reframe the terms of the issue:

1. The issue is not whether Norsemen is either:
   1. A useful or accurate historical term
   2. Referred to a real people (ethnically or linguistically) from Scandinavia in the 8th-13th centuries
   3. More politically neutral than Viking
   4. What such people might have used as a term to refer to themselves
   5. A more frequently used term before the C20th

All these issues are real, interesting and deserve well-referenced coverage on the (already pretty good) etymology section of the Vikings article and possibly elsewhere. Dan, you have continued to make points (many of which have been conceded by others) on these issues but have failed to address the points of others:

1. The issue is when Norsemen is a more appropriate and idiomatic term than Vikings on English Misplaced Pages. This depends on:
   1. The terms used in the scholarly literature - Viking is used extensively and CANNOT be changed when being referred to or quoted
   2. Whether Norsemen makes grammatical sense on articles. In many of Dan's replacements it does not
   3. The terms that are most frequently used by the wider public (in the 21st century!). Vikings is far more popular and relevant. Compare: Google search for Vikings with Google search for Norsemen. Also see the explanation Who were the Vikings? on the web page of the UK's most popular Viking museum.

There may be a few articles where, despite the above points, Norsemen is more appropriate. These should be sought out and changed individually, not with AWB.

Dan, are there any of these points you're prepared to address? If not, might I suggest that a discussion is begun on Swedish Misplaced Pages's village pump (there's no embassy). Perhaps another fluent, bilingual editor could help explain that the use of Vikings on English Misplaced Pages is neither inaccurate or an linguistic slur. There must be terms in Swedish that have similarly changed meaning in the last few hundred years. Let's hope we can get through this! PatHadley (talk) 10:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

There is an intellectual problem here. You are discussing the term Viking, Im discussing the term Norsemen. I made links to Norsemen. There is no available consensus, that I can find, that making links to Norsemen, should be a poor choice. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

And now I'm supporting a block on the basis of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --IJBall (talk) 12:27, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Dan Koehl, we are not here at ANI to have a content discussion about Vikings. Since almost everyone agrees that your edits pose a problem, we want to know if you are willing to stop these changes. If you continue with the vague statements (all of which assume the correctness of your own position) a block would appear to be the simplest solution. EdJohnston (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

This has gone to far now. I did a normal Misplaced Pages action, making links about Norsemen to the article Norsemen. Since there were so many, I used AWB. Now theres allegations against me that I have abused AWB, and should be blocked, with the motivation that, linking to the article Norsemen is some sort of crime, however not specified why. Although I stopped making the links the same day, (several days ago) there's repeated "threats" written above, that if I don't stop (which I already did) I will be blocked from Misplaced Pages etc. I can see no other reason for this, apart from that for a reader it should look as if Im daily, repeatedly, vandalizing Misplaced Pages, which is for sure not the case, contrary, Im active daily as patroller. The use of "everyone" (against my links) made me suspicious, and after reading through this thread, as all as making a second analyze of the entire issue, as well noticing how personal the critics against my person are, instead of focusing on the subject, and the efforts to try make it look like I have vandalized Misplaced Pages, (when all I dd was making links to article Norsemen I now see:

• The article Viking is for some reason preferred by a group of users
• There is less than 100 links to article Norsemen.
• There is less than 100 links to article Norse, and most of them from talk pages.
• But there is thousands of links to article Viking.

Someone, or group of people, have a POV campaign going on, changing all links Norsemen, into links to Viking. Its like they want to kill and remove the article Norsemen?and they are now upset, when I interrupted this. Im not particularly focusing on the controversial term Viking, but on the absence of use of the terms Norse and Norsemen, and the reasons behind this. Those two articles are the natural names pace to tell about Scandinavian culture and history, but for some reason the article is more or less getting censored by a limited, but strong group of people, against logical arguments.

This issue is much more serious than I though, and for sure needs attention from admins and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Norse history and culture. This is against how Misplaced Pages should work, and against the NPOV rule.

Dan Koehl (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And, again, we get WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, now with a side of not assuming good faith. There is nothing to suggest this editor even realizes their editing is a problem, let along acknowledging it as such. Again, support loss of AWB privileges at a minimum, and support a block if they start up on their previous course of action of changing "Viking" to "Norsemen" against Consensus. --IJBall (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, the editor's continued focus here on content, despite being told that the matter being discussed here is behaviour, shows that they either refuse to take heed or have an inability to comprehend the issue. Either way they are not suitable to hold AWB privileges. The editor did finally stop their editing campaign but only after repeated notifications that the edits were both ungrammatical and controversial, points they have still not conceded apparently. A topic ban is also required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, but note that having started his campaign at "A", he only stopped when he had reached "Y", ie probably when he had run out of articles. Johnbod (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Aha, no extenuating circumstances then. I wondered what had prompted the abrupt stop as it clearly wasn't acceptance of the points being made. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

In my view if he understood the issues with grammar and context and promised to do any changes slowly and manually, with discussion on an article by article basis, that might be the best outcome in terms of improving the encyclopedia. But I definitely agree he needs to be prevented from making any kind of automated edits in this area. Happy Squirrel(Please let me know how to improve!) 16:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

How much more can possibly done to help him understand? He's impervious. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I think there is a problem here of both communication and willing to compromise. Eventually, you five users share the opinion that Norsemen is an article that should not be used, or at least not linked to, while you prefer to make links to the article viking. As a consequence, you want other users to do the same, and if they don't, you change the links from Norsemen to Vikings. Then after my edits, you want to force me to follow your opinion, by threats of blocking and removal og AWB, but all this without a valid motivation, except that your opinion. You don't accept the validity of the article Norsemen or that links to this article is perfectly accepted by Misplaced Pages community. Then you think that you can change the world, and the existence and use of article Norsemen, by calling five peoples opinion a consensus?

By all means, I never saw a more direct case of a limited group of people who want to push the majority to follow their POV opinion. Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way, and consensus (or your type of "consensus") can never replace verified sources. The term Norsemen exists, weather you like it or not. If I make links to that article, you can't just say that Im breaking Misplaced Pages rules, should be blocked and have my AWB removed. The rule of NPOV is always the most important, and should be followed. My suggestion is that you take active part in discussions about those two terms, and consider being more willing to compromise and see other users point of view. With a reasonable willing of tolerating other people views, we can together build up an even better Misplaced Pages. Dan Koehl (talk) 10:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

QED Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but it's unlikely at this point that Dan Koehl will be blocked unless he starts uo again making changes without a consensus to do so. If he does, a new AN/I should be open (assuming that this one will have scrolled off the board by them), with specific reference to this report, and the consensus among commenters here that a block is warranted. BMK (talk) 21:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

BeastBoy3395 misrepresenting sources

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BeastBoy3395 has a habit of misrepresenting sources. The most egregious example is this edit to Political positions of Ronald Reagan; the source cited for the first sentence actually says, "Reagan never supported the use of federal power to provide blacks with civil rights." The New York Times article BeastBoy3395 adds does contain the Reagan quote, but it also says: "A grass-roots lobbying and legislative campaign had forced Mr. Reagan and Attorney General William French Smith to abandon their plan to ease the restrictions in the landmark civil rights legislation." - thus it cannot serve to show that Reagan had started supporting the legislation. That's not a one-off; here he claimed "multiple sources show love jihad is real, and that people have been convicted of it" when the source he presents says no such thing; when I pointed that out, he cited the Guardian to support the same claim when the Guardian does not say so but in fact pretty much says the opposite. That's not acceptable. At best he's wasting the time of other editors who have to debunk his spurious claims, at worst he's directly attacking the veracity of Misplaced Pages. This may serve as an indication of his motivation. I'm obviously too deeply involved to take administrative action myself, but I do not think someone who routinely misrepresents sources has a place on Misplaced Pages. Huon (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Oppose administrative action: I don't believe that I am, in fact, misrepresenting sources. Reagan did indeed support the extension of the VRA in 1982 after a massive lobbying campaign, and it was a federal law to provide blacks with civil rights; thus, Reagan supported a federal initiative to provide blacks with civil rights, which means that I was right when I put "Reagan initially did not support federal initiatives to provide blacks with civil rights, but changed his mind later on". Therefore, Huon is wrong on this. BeastBoy3395 (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Trout Huon It's very clear that you decided to search through Beastboy's contribs in search of something (in an article you've never edited) to shaft him over, due to your previous disagreement with him in the rape jihad and love jihad articles. You've demonstrated this by immediately going to ANI, instead of trying to discuss it with him on his talk page or the articles talk page. If this ANI thread were truly about Beastboy's edits "attacking the veracity of Wikipdia" you would have at least bothered to revert his edits to the Ronald Reagan article, which as it currently stands still has all the misrepresentation of sources you claim Beastboy added. (To clarify this isnt necessarily an endorsement of Beastboy's actions I just find what Huon has done very dodgy) Bosstopher (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Bosstopher, do you seriously expect me to "discuss it with him on his talk page" if he misrepresents another sources on the same article talk page a second time after I pointed it out the first time? How often should I, in your opinion, "discuss with him" that the sources he presents routinely are not reliable and/or do not say what he claims they say? Indeed I checked his contributions after I fould them inappropriate in one article; after he misrepresented sources in a second place I was anything but impressed, when he did so in a third place I came here. You're right, however, I forgot to clean up the Reagan article; will do so now. Huon (talk) 00:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I've undone your reverts to my edit; it wasn't helpful. Also, Reagan clearly did later on in his career support federal initiatives to provide blacks with civil rights, which was shown by his signing the 1982 federal extension of the Voting Rights Act. I also removed this sentence "His opposition was based on the view that certain provisions of both acts violated the US Constitution and in the case of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, intruded upon the civil rights of business and property owners.", as the source doesn't support it. The source says absolutely nothing about Reagan thinking the Civil Rights Act was unconstitutional. BeastBoy3395 (talk) 00:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks like BeastBoy3395 has done about a dozen reverts Rape jihad in the last 24 hours, someone might want to explain 3RR to him. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 02:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• With thanks to Gouncbeatduke's remark, the Beastboy is now blocked for edit warring on Rape jihad; they are clearly editing against consensus, and I'm putting that nicely. Now, if they return to their previous behavior, we can discuss an indefinite block. Huon, is that alright? Drmies (talk) 02:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
• He was also edit-warring at the Love jihad page yesterday, and I didn't realize he was even more busy at another page. Another editor was considerate enough to open a talk page discussion but he exhibited a severe case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. - Kautilya3 (talk) 05:14, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

And before he was blocked, he reinstituted the claim that Reagan changed his mind on civil rights legislation based on one source that says Reagan "never supported" it and on another that says he was "forced to abandon plan to ease the restrictions in the landmark civil rights legislation". WP:SYN had been pointed out to him, so ignorance is not an excuse. Huon (talk) 20:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Huon, because Beastboy was given a block for edit warring, not misrepresenting sources, I expect you want this case to continue its discussion of his edits? Liz 22:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I expect the more serious behavioural issues, ie routinely misrepresenting what sources say in favor of BeastBoy3395 thinks we should report, will re-surface as soon as the block runs out. Misrepresenting sources is not acceptable, and I see no indication that BeastBoy3395 even acknowledges there is a problem. So yes, I still think more permanent measures are required, but we can return here the next time BeastBoy3395 claims a source says something it doesn't. Huon (talk) 22:31, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, this resurfaced... Ratatosk Jones (talk) 04:12, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Ugh. That reinforce the thoughts of anyone who feels that this editor is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. MarnetteD|Talk 04:36, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. Agreed, MarnetteD. Note that originally, BeastBoy's caption for the now-removed antisemitic caricature at the top of his talkpage was "Jewish bankers caused the 2008 crisis. The mainstream, Jew-owned press doesn't want to admit it, but it's true." The only reason it didn't show up on his page was that he missed using the "thumb" code. We give people too much rope sometimes. Indeffed per WP:NOTHERE. Bishonen | talk 18:43, 13 May 2015 (UTC).

Many thanks Bishonen MarnetteD|Talk 18:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Hcobb & BLP's

User:Hcobb continues to make inflammatory edits to BLP's that either mischaracterize the source(s) provided or are completely unsupported by the sources. Given the editor's experience and the long-term duration of the edits, in my opinion the edits could possibly be characterized as WP:vandalism. I attempted to warn him off a year ago. However, the following edits have been made since then:

1. Political Positions of Jeb Bush Mischaracterization of source. (According to the source, Bush didn't say the Iraq invasion was necessary and didn't characterize post-invasion security as a "blunder".)
2. Mike Huckabee Presidential Campaign Statement unsupported by source.
3. Ted Cruz Mischaracterization of source.
4. Marco Rubio Statement unsupported by source.
5. Ronald Reagan Mischaracterization of source.
6. Scott Walker Mischaracterization of source.
7. Rick Scott Mischaracterization of source.
8. Ted Cruz Mischaracterization of source.
9. Lindsey Graham Mischaracterization of source.
10. Political Positions of Rand Paul Mischaracterization of source.
11. Bobby Jindal Statement unsupported by source.
12. Rand Paul Statement unsupported by source.
13. John Boehner Statement unsupported by source.
14. Political Positions of Rand Paul Statement unsupported by source.
15. Ted Cruz Mischaracterization of source.
16. Rand Paul Statement unsupported by source.
17. Political Positions of Mitt Romney Statement unsupported by source.
18. Jeff Sessions Statement unsupported by source.
19. Chris Christie Original research.

CFredkin (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Note that "blunder" is exactly the word that reliable sources state that Jeb used. What exactly was the problem? Hcobb (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Bush—Which impartial sources? The one cited attributes the characterization to George W. and NOT as a quote, so someone needs a solid source if they want to use the word, put it in quotes and attribute it to Jeb.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Huckabee—Your Huckabee statement is grossly wrong. While I'm having trouble tracking down his exact claim, and it may well have been a dumb statement, the source you cited doesn't remotely support your claim. I've only looked at two so far, so I'm not yet ready to recommend what action should be taken. I see someone else has removed it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
• Cruz—Given the discussion of sodomy, it should be handled very carefully. I haven't done enough research to see whether your claim is supportable or not, but it may be.
• Rubio—I have no idea whether Rubio supports privatization of the VHA, but the cited source does not make that claim.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

As noted below, this is not the right place to debate content. I checked a few, to see if the allegations had merit. They do, but there are better places to debate content.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Hcobb, can you please cut/paste the relevant text from the corresponding sources to support the following claims <emphases mine> in your edits:

2. "In his announcement he promised to put the 37.3 million retired Americans to work."

4. "Rubio has endorsed a proposal to privatize the Veterans Health Administration."

11. "In 2015 Jindal traveled to the UK to speak out against the 'no-go zones' he imagined to be there."

12. "In November 2014 Paul moved to recognize the government of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant."

13. "The third law firm selected finally filed the suit in November 2014, after Boehner criticized Obama's unilateral moves on immigration policy, taken after Boehner had scheduled no votes on the Senate bill for over 500 days."

14. "Paul claims that the government is lying to the American people and that he alone knows how "incredibly contagious" Ebola is.

16. "Paul then welcomed what he called unconstitutional airstrikes against ISIL.

17. "In September 2014, Romney faulted "Washington politicians" for cutting defense instead of raising taxes."

18. "Sessions said that more federal revenue may be needed for defense."CFredkin (talk) 02:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Are these good faith efforts to improve the project?CFredkin (talk) 03:10, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Are we discussing content disputes at AN/I? Are these not better handled in talk page discussions? For example the Jeb Bush source says The mistakes, Bush argued, were in the decisions made in the aftermath: “Once we invaded and took out Saddam Hussein, we didn’t focus on security first.” He said George W. Bush agrees that this was a blunder, "so just for the news flash to the world, if they’re trying to find places where there’s big space between me and my brother, this might not be one of thos.”, so one can assume from that the Jeb Bush agrees with George W that it was a blunder. Granted, there is a bit of WP:SYNTH there, but that can be hashed out in talk, and Hcobb may need to exercise some caution. Shall we move on then? - Cwobeel (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@Cwobeel: makes a good point, this is not the place for an indepth discussion of content. Some of the edits have already been reversed, the remaining should be handled on a cases-by-case basis following discussion on the respective talk pages, while this is a place to discuss whatever sancations, if any, should accrue to the editor. So far, none have been proposed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

For ease of reference, here's the exact text from Hcobb's edit for #1 above, which Cwobeel is referencing: "Bush agrees with his brother George W. Bush that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was necessary, and that the lack of focus on post-invasion security was a "blunder"."CFredkin (talk) 03:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC) In any case, this isn't the most egregious edit by any means. I just listed the edits in reverse chronological (not priority) order.CFredkin (talk) 03:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Has this been posted to the BLP noticeboard? Each detail you mention is either a SYNTH violation or an outright BLP violation.--MONGO 07:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Do we really need to go to the BLP noticeboard? I would think that would be a venue for broad discussion of issues that cannot be settled on the talk pages of the respective articles. Step 1 is reversion of errors. Step 2 is discussion on the talk page if the editor continues to insist on the error after reversion and step 3 is a noticeboard if the discussion at the talk page doesn't attract enough input. Separately, the editors actions can be addressed here if they persist after being corrected. Sounds like we are ahead of ourselves.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If the editor has a history of misrepresenting sources, and was warned about it in the past, then the discussion on behavior belongs here. --NeilN 14:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And here it is exactly in the source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/05/10/jeb-bush-says-he-would-have-invaded-iraq/ “I would have , ... He said George W. Bush agrees that this was a blunder, "so just for the news flash to the world, if they’re trying to find places where there’s big space between me and my brother, this might not be one of those.”

So how exactly did I invent "blunder"? Hcobb (talk) 11:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the right venue to debate a content question. Please post to the talk page of the article, and I'll respond there.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Hcobb's mode of operation is to periodically add inaccurate content to Republican BLP's. When the edits are challenged, he rarely defends them. This allows him to fly under the radar in the hopes that at least some of his edits will remain undiscovered and stick. It seems to be effective since it's been going on for several years. Since we've established here that this behavior is ok, I may adopt this approach myself for articles on Democratic politicians and issues moving forward. I'll refer back to this discussion if I'm challenged on it. (User:Cwobeel since you stalk my edits, I'll be sure to create a new alias for this purpose.) We can call this mode of editing "catch me, if you can", and it will be a race to the bottom. Cheers.CFredkin (talk) 15:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I may adopt this approach myself for articles on Democratic politicians and issues moving forward. ... That would be very unwise and pointy. And BTW, I don't "stalk" your edits. I have your user page on my watchlist and we tend to edit same type of articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Cwobeel said: "Do I check once in a while on your contrib list? Sure I do." at And it continues...CFredkin (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

That is not "stalking", my friend. And I think that my intervention at Hcobb's talk page was useful. Maybe you need to re-consider your attitude, and be more collegial? - Cwobeel (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....CFredkin (talk) 18:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

For example, you did not include my second message to Hcobb ]. Why? Uh? Uh? - Cwobeel (talk)

In any case, this User_talk:Hcobb#The ANI issue may be the better way to handle it. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If the contention is Hcobb is editing political bios but only misrepresenting sources on bios of politicians belonging to a certain ideology then I don't think AGF will wash. I've asked an initial question on their talk page. --NeilN 18:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This ANI post is about a long-term pattern of behavior involving the posting of false and inaccurate content to BLP's. My understanding is that BLP's in particular have a higher level of risk of legal action as a result of slanderous and inaccurate content. He was warned at least once a year ago and continued his behavior. (In fact, judging from the posts immediately following the warning, his behavior got worse in terms of posting completely false content.) I believe persistent vandalism is generally dealt with through some sort of block. Instead, you and some other editors here are attempting to position the issue as a misunderstanding over content. I've noticed that you've focused on a single edit involving mischaracterization of the source in particular and completely ignored the multiple edits involving content that is completely false. Personally I have no idea how the post you refer to above to Hcobb's talk page, which appears to primarily reassure him that my ANI post was premature and that he must have been acting in good faith in any way is a reasonable response to his behavior.CFredkin (talk) 18:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

No really. My post in Hcobb page was that you may have a point on your assessment of his edits, and that we all needs to be careful to stay close to the sources. - Cwobeel (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm referring to this User_talk:Hcobb#The ANI issue .CFredkin (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive. The attention that you have brought to this issue, has brought this to the attention of two very experienced editors, and I would be inclined to say that Hcobb will be in real trouble if he/she does not respond to their questions, or if the behavior re-occurs. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

So it sounds like you're suggesting that Hcobb is on some kind of double-secret probation. That sounds ominous indeed. Hcobb must be quaking, particularly since he hasn't even acknowledged wrongdoing much less offered to change his behavior.CFredkin (talk) 21:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Before signing off I'll note the following for the record: This thread documents that User:Hcobb has inserted potentially libelous content into the biographies of living Republican politicians on Misplaced Pages on multiple occasions over the last year. Since User:Hcobb has been editing since October 21, 2008, it is probable that additional libelous content has been inserted into the biographies of living Republican politicians that has not been identified and corrected. Collectively the admin community of Misplaced Pages is taking no preventative or punitive measure to address the situation.CFredkin (talk) 23:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I tried asking on the article talk page what exactly the error was without response. I will try again. Hcobb (talk) 00:22, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

What a ridiculous statement CFredkin. Do you really believe that libel can remain in bios without any eyes noticing? You grossly underestimate how Misplaced Pages works. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Cwobeel Whoops. Here's another one. Two years old. Who's being ridiculous?CFredkin (talk) 15:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Cwobeel: It's interesting to me that you've inserted yourself so strenuously into this post. Why is that, do you think? Is it because you have a long-standing habit of following me and contesting my edits? Is it because the BLP's being vandalized are exclusively for Republicans? Is it because you don't believe persistent vandalism involving the insertion of libelous content into BLP's should be sanctioned?CFredkin (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Look, I am trying to help here. The Paul Ryan edit is a an obvious content dispute and does not raise to the level of libel. Take it to talk, for Pete's sake and move on. This is my last post in this thread. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:41, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Fraudulent misrepresentation.

• Users with accounts: JoeSperrazza, Volunteer Marek. Intentionally misleading, unproven entering data in the article Buk missile system, as the official investigation is not over, and the commission's findings have not been published, they introduced changes into the hands of one of the parties to the conflict. At the same time, deliberately removed the audited data for 2013.
• Users with accounts: JoeSperrazza, Volunteer Marek, violate the rule of neutrality of Misplaced Pages articles. Please take immediate action.--Mega775 ~(talk) 10:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Pinged the other two parties as you were supposed to... also, wowie zowie, already on ANI within your first 10 edits? BlusterBlaster 11:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

You need to slow down and discuss your edits on the article's talk page. This is a content dispute, not something for admin action. You are already at three reverts with your account and it appears an additional one with an IP address. -- GB fan 11:27, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Also accusing others of fraudulent misrepresentation is getting very close to violating WP:NLT. GiantSnowman 11:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I believe that vydavanie unconfirmed information as fact, it is a violation. This is Misplaced Pages, but not with CNN BBC.--Mega775 (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If you do not believe the sources provided with the information verifies the information, then you need to start a discussion on the article's talk page, not edit war. -- GB fan 12:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• My brief response - unfortunately, there's a history of edit warring to remove reliably sourced information regarding the use of the Buk missile system in the Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 incident. Often these edits, e.g., , are from IPs (check geolocate information for further insight), other times from newly registered accounts, such as the complainant. In the past, I and others have taken the time to request temporary page protection from new accounts and IPs. I was too busy to do so this most recent burst of such edits. I recommend that now. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, this page should be permanently semi-protected.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
• Sooner or later the truth will emerge on the surface, and you will realize that you are (JoeSperrazza, Volunteer Marek) a disinformation accomplices, I hope this time you will remember about me, unless of course you do not do it intentionally.--Mega775 (talk) 18:09, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

New editor (Mega775 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) with under 5 edits immediately comes here to "report" two long-standing editors? Something seems "off" here... --IJBall (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat at Gerald Fredrick Töben, possible BLP issues

See. "Corrected date: not 1998 but 1999 - I shall be submitting a detailed new version of this flawed and truncated biographical sketch - and seek legal advice if the paid trolls tamper with ityou tamper with it" The IP is apparently Toben himself. As I've been involved in editing the article I'll leave it for others to deal with this. Ah, just realised that isn't the only legal threat, see. As he's not using a stable IP, perhaps protection should be applied. To be fair, it probably needs more eyes, it is a BLP after all. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

That's OK -- if he sues we'll just deny there's an English Misplaced Pages or that he's one of its six million articles. EEng (talk) 13:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I added the article to my watchlist - hopefully others will as well. Given the possibility of a dynamic IP, page protection may be necessary should the behavior persist. The date had a source pointing to the 1998 date, so I reverted. If they dispute the date another source will be necessary. I've also done some minor formatting cleanup and removed an unsourced claim. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 20:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I find the subject's views abhorrent but that's neither here nor there. If the subject of a BLP thinks a correction is necessary then we should take that request seriously no matter who it is. Right now the 1998 date is sourced to the Daily Mail, which is not an appropriate source for anything remotely important or controversial.

It's easy to give BLP protection to "good" people. The test of our commitment to BLP is when we apply the same standards to everyone, whether the Dalai Lama or someone considerably less noble. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Ser Amantio di Nicolao and AWB abuse

Ser Amantio di Nicolao with AWB privileges is adding questionable gender categorisations to thousands of biography pages. It first came to my attention at Omar Khalidi page : diff, which I reverted citing policy WP:CATGRS. He repeated the edits the next day. I explained the issue in detail on his talk page: diff. More discussion on my talk page User_talk:Kautilya3#Gender_categorization, after which he self-reverted. So far so good. But he has been continuing to do the same questionable categorisation on thousands of pages using AWB, as evident from his Contributions list . More and more articles on my watch list are popping up with "male" added to their categories. This needs to be stopped.

I also think all these edits need to be undone, because they set bad examples for others to do the same thing. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not agree with the issue as stated. I believe that Category:Male historians and other such categories are valid because of the past creation of such categories as Category:American male writers and some of its subcats, and Category:British male writers and some of its subcats. (I would note, incidentally, that a number of these categories have been brought up before CFD, a couple of years ago, and were all designated as to be kept.) They are proving to be as useful as the subcats of Category:Women writers. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 14:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I am sure Ser Amantio feels as if he is doing a service by adding these categories. But, it can't be right. The categorisation should be done using a defining characteristic principle as per WP:DEFINING. WP:CATGRS says that gender and other characteristics should not be used to subdivide the category unless there are reliable sources that do it. Nobody thinks of writers, scholars, historians etc. as male and female. They are just writers, scholars and historians. He cites the example of Category:Women writers as justification. But that is a category that has been created after extensive discussion in the CfD process. There are reliable sources as well as justifiable reasons for that category. However, women-writers are not the same as "female writers" and it doesn't warrant a parallel "male writers" category. It should also be noted that Women writers is a non-diffusing subcategory. Women writers don't stop being "writers" by virtue of being women writers. There is an undercurrent of unfortunate gender battle, and a fundamental lack of understanding of categorisation. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Ser Amantio is one of the most productive AWB operators on here. Far from "abuse", he's been of enormous assistance over the years and has done a massive amount of work organizing categories. While you might have a point about splitting some of the occupations by gender, unless you can prove there's a significant consensus against what he's doing this remains largely a case of I DON'T LIKE IT. That he ignored what you said seems to have angered you and prompted a rude message to him and this here. And knowing Ser Amantio, if there was significant consensus against what he's been doing I know that he wouldn't be continuing. He's not that sort of editor. My only concern, and I've said this previously, is that if you're going to split a main category you really need to have a hatnote at the top explaining that it's been split by gender and main category links to them emboldened at the top. Especially if there's loads of sub categories finding "male" and "female" can be particular difficult and not convenient for a reader in browsing. But please don't post here as if he's some abusive vandal who needs to banned asap. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:36, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Please don't personalise the issue. I am not "angered" by anybody. The AWB privilege comes with the responsibility to follow Misplaced Pages policies. Ser Amantio should not be doing mass changes without a proper understanding of the concerned policies. When we point out the relevant policies, it is doubly contingent upon him to do so. The very first principle of categorisation under CATGRS states: Do not create categories that are a cross-section of a topic with an ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, unless these characteristics are relevant to the topic. He has not said single word about how maleness is relevant to being historian or a writer. His only justification seems to be that people "like it." This is not the way to build Misplaced Pages. In the ARBIPA domain where I edit, there are a lot of things that people write that other people like and equally other people hate. Policies exist for a reason. He needs to follow them. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, at one time there was a rule against splitting actors and actresses. Now there is official consensus to split as there was a lengthy RFC in some place and I believe it was decided to split them. Writers I supposed the split has to do with the WP:Women's writer group and rooting out how many articles on women we have and what needs work. as well as improving navigation for those interested. You do have a point about how far we should go with the gender splitting. If you do think he's violating consensus or some policy then request an RFC and decide on how far the gender split should go. But please assume good faith from him on this..♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Consensus comes into picture only when there is genuine disagreement within policy. We don't need "consensus" to decide whether to follow policies or not. If he stated a policy-based rationale for his categorisations, I would have been glad to take it to a CfD. He hasn't done so. He hasn't produced a single reliable source that justifies any of his categorisations. So, this is a meaningless debate at this point. - Kautilya3 (talk) 15:10, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

While I disagree with your interpretation of gender not being a defining characteristic, I understand your sense of urgency. It is quite easy to make sweeping changes with categories and have them go unnoticed because they are often edits of small size at a lot of different articles. And, unfortunately, the category page itself has no record of what subcategories, articles or pages have been added to or deleted from it. It's quite easy to do a lot of damage in just a few hours which can be difficult to undo or which goes unnoticed for months or years. But, in this case, I think Ser Amantio di Nicolao is making a valid interpretation. Gender categories come up frequently at CfD and they have a mixed success, sometimes they are kept, sometimes they are deleted or merged. But the folks at CfD are familiar with the categorization rules and, as Xezbeth says, you should probably take this discussion there. Liz 16:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd just like to note, for the record, that I came to the creation of these categories after long consideration...the fact that a number of the "male writers" categories had been up at CfD a couple of years ago, had been accepted, and have remained in use led me to feel that perhaps it was time to expand on that beginning somewhat. Women writers categories I am using mainly to find categories to mirror with male-only categories. E.g. - I created Category:Male essayists because there's a category Category:Women essayists. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 17:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If Category:Male essayists or whatever is a problem, then nominate it for deletion. If it isn't a problem, then adding the category to a suitable article cannot be considered abuse. —Xezbeth (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see any abuse here. What I do see is an editorial dispute. If you don't want the category, send it to CfD, or open a discussion about it. Epic Genius (talk) 15:20, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Whether a category/subcategory should exist or not is a matter for CfD. That is not AWB abuse. Rather, AWB abuse is in adding thousands of articles to these categories without obtaining reliable sources. WP:CATGRS says: As to the inclusion of people in an ethnicity, gender, religion, sexuality, or disability related category, please remember that inclusion must be based on reliable sources. This was the very first point I made to him: diff. While he accepted my point for that page and self-reverted, he kept on doing it for thousands of other pages using AWB. Am I expected to chase after him and block him at each and every page that he adds by automation? - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:01, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose where I, personally, am having a problem is with the question of reliable source: what constitutes a reliable source on the question of gender? Use of the pronoun "he" in a discussion? Mention of the word "male"? I don't know how deep to take it. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 17:25, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I told you in the above diff that somebody being a male and a historian doesn't make him a "male historian." If you looked at any of the old CfD's on gender-related categories, you would have seen such reliable sources being mentioned, but only for the categories that make sense. The WP:CATGRS itself gives the example of "female Heads of State" as a category that exists. There are plenty of reliable sources for it. Since you are creating categories that don't make sense, you are not able to find reliable sources. If there is indeed a category called "male historian" in the real world then you would find it being mentioned in a reliable source. But there isn't. It is just something you pulled out of your own hat. So, obviously you can't find sources. Your inability to find sources should tell you that you are trying to do the wrong thing! Kautilya3 (talk) 17:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

But the point is if you take your argument to CfD and persuade other editors with your argument, the category will be deleted. You won't have to go to each individual article and remove it. It's clear from the discussion so far that no one but you is stepping forward to propose sanctioning Ser Amantio di Nicolao so your best bet (which I don't even agree with!) is to present your case at CfD. Liz 23:55, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place. CfD is the place. There is no ground for enforcing any sanction to remedy what is a regular editorial dispute. --AmritasyaPutra 10:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Suppose the category is valid, and there are indeed a handful of individuals that are characterised as "male historians" or "male essayists" in reliable sources. That doesn't change the fact that Ser Amantio has categorised thousands of other articles without reliable sources. CfD has nothing to do with the problem being stated here. - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:19, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• This is fundamentally a content dispute and not fit for ANI. I see no abuse taking place here. As you have received no consensus for your view (and neither has he) the best and only thing to do now is get consensus at CfD. KonveyorBelt 16:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Kautilya3, but I also agree that the matter should be discussed elsewhere. Let's go there. Sincerely, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 04:20, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks to everybody for comments. There are now two CfD's: for Male historians and Women historians. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring by User:DanJazzy on Kenny G article

User:DanJazzy continues to remove smooth jazz from the list of genres on the Kenny G article, and keeps on adding a criticism section to the article, giving it undue weight. I tried to discuss the issue with him, but he refuses to comply, accusing me of disruptive editing. He is clearly gaming the system to try to get his way, when all reliable sources state that Kenny G is a smooth jazz musician. Looking at his edit history, this isn't the first time he has attempted to game the system to enforce his POV on specific issues. User is clearly a genre warrior. ANDROS_TALK 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

At a glance, I say you didn't really have consensus to classify him as a smooth jazz artist, but technically there hasn't really been recent discussion of the matter, and the rationale of those opposing it in this section is some truly uuuuuuurgh-inducing sourgraping with no factual evidence by way of RS to back it up. So it comes down to what reliable sources say-- is he a smooth jazz artist, or no, and do the RSes say so? Per this piece in the Washington Post, smooth jazz appears to be described as a jazz-sounding song with no improvisation component-- however much of an authority this holds on the definition of smooth jazz remains to be seen-- and is also quick to mention Kenny G's work as part of that genre.

Anyway, this is a very content-dispute-flavored kettle of fish and you two ought to talk on the relevant article talkpage for it, but... My take on it is you're not giving the RSes you're saying prove he's a smooth jazz musician, and the onus is on you to prove it to attain consensus. Same onus is on Dan for the adult contemporary thing. As for the Criticism thing Dan wants to put in, WP:CRITICISM is an essay, so it can't be taken as the hard-and-fast rule for Criticism sections. BlusterBlaster 18:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, AllMusic includes smooth jazz in his list of styles . Amazon also categorizes his albums as smooth jazz. Any sources that state otherwise (nearly exclusively from jazz purists) are not reliable sources, because they are in a perspective of a jazz purist rather than a neutral point of view. ANDROS_TALK 19:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And I guess Amazon's perspective is that of a company that wants to sell people things and not a reliable source on categorization of jazz musicians. Liz 23:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Uh... so there are no "appropriate" sources for the categorization of musicians by genre?! (That's why I'm getting out of this thread!) I'm thinking this is going to lead to problems... Is there a guideline specifically on this topic – genres for musicians, and what qualifies as a "reliable source" for such? --IJBall (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

agree with Liz. As far as WP:RSN has covered it before, to answer IJ, Allmusic has been considered reliable for music topics, but Andros is going to have to dig up more than one source to sway consensus in their favour since it's evidently contentious among editors what to classify his music. Additionally, taking the stance that anyone who disagrees with the smooth jazz POV (that's a statement I never thought I'd have to use, heh) must be a jazz purist, or worse unreliable, is not going to help matters-- you're verging on combative, genre warrior behaviour yourself by doing that. Take their analysis with a grain of salt, and focus on those with considerable academic merit or expertise in music, of course, but don't immediately discount their stance just because it's not yours. BlusterBlaster 01:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

to clarify, by "anyone" I mean that you shouldn't discount stances taken by RSes just because they disagree with you/yours; if editors DONTLIKEIT and can't counter it with RSes of their own, obviously they'll have to muster the strength to deal with it. BlusterBlaster 02:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll comment here only because I was asked. There was some reversion back and forth, but it hadn't reached 3RR, and truly seems to be a content dispute. I would invite @Andros 1337: to join the discussion on the relevant talk page, where I think some productive conversation is now taking place. Many reliable sources do in fact support his position, but the details aren't relevant here. I think that unless real edit-warring breaks out immediately, this one can be closed. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:52, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

With regards to the libelous allegations byANDROS, please allow me to clarify as follows:-

1. Editors should visit this https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Kenny_G and this https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:DanJazzy. The disruptive editing is evident. It only stopped when I clarified Wiki policy on editing pages without consensus.

2. Th same editor accused me of gaming the system on "specific issues". I urge him to substantiate or withdraw the allegation.DanJazzy (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I see an exchange between two editors who have a content dispute and are not very civil, but I see nothing that can reasonably be categorized as "libelous". Because I see nothing that can reasonably be categorized as libelous, I do see a personal attack by User:DanJazzy against User:Andros 1337. I would suggest the use of a dispute resolution procedure, except that the editors will have to learn to comment on content rather than contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Inappropriate Actions and behavors by Editors Padenton and Msnicki

This was moved from Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests Sorry for starting in the wrong place. Not easy to get your footing where the right place is. Thanks to User:TransporterMan for pointing out my error.

I would like to draw your attention to ]. The editors that proposed this deletion have been running their own personal vendetta.

This deletion request is, in my opinion, a vendetta against my arguments to keep the article NIM. ] by Padenton|✉  and Msnicki (talk) who have tried to retaliate by deleting a slew of articles. Sources of information that were and are in my opinion quite notable are being deleted by Padention and Msnicki. Notice from a comment in the comment in the Nim deletion discussion how many articles are now missing.(Written by Itsmeront 23:06, May 11, 2015‎)

• Keep. There are Misplaced Pages articles about hundreds of programming languages. Many of them don't have any secondary sources. So why do you think Nim is not notable, but the following languages are? Obol (programming language), Picky (programming language), Little Interpreted Language, Seph (programming language), Halide (programming language), Roy (programming language), Plaid (programming language), Join-calculus (programming language), Objeck (programming language), Nemo (programming language), Ooc, Cl4 (programming language), Slave Programming Language, PureScript, Hope (programming language), MX Language, MCTRL, SmilScript, Wigzy, Mobl, Napier88 (I have just picked some random articles) --Trustable (talk) 23:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
• That argument is Misplaced Pages:Other stuff exists. Just because those haven't been deleted, doesn't make this article subject notable. ― Padenton|✉   00:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Also note in ] when the vote when against them Pandenton 'Msnicki' decided to inappropriately push the issue "Sorry, I really hate when people blackmail me. Please take it to DRV if you think it has any merit.--Ymblanter (talk)"

This is just another long run of actions that should have wikipedia editors to consider the modivations of these editors.

Itsmeront (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Time for a WP:BOOMERANG.

1. The article you made as a memorial for your friend does not establish his notability and his notability is in question, which makes it perfectly fair game to be nominated at AfD, especially since searches do not establish his notability either.
2. Those were all deleted fairly, you're welcome to talk to the closers and seek deletion review. Otherwise, get over it and stop re-posting this everywhere hoping someone will care, because they won't. I doubt even Trustable cares. You're welcome to ask him/her.
3. I have NEVER edited on Ymblanter's talk page, and the history proves it, so don't accuse me of stuff I have never done. The vote also didn't "go against me", it was no consensus for both the AfD and the deletion review.
4. It's nice that you notified Ymblanter on his talk page. But you failed to do so for myself and Msnicki as you are required to do in any editor dispute.

Can someone close this as there isn't a single honest thing Itsmeront has said and this isn't even close to being the correct venue? Though he's been forum shopping on this already a fair bit. ― Padenton|✉   04:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I corrected the reference above and attributed the blackmail to Msnicki. I also added a notice on both of your talk pages. Dr. Raab was was notable on his own, he was the heart and soul of a very large open source community, the deletion request is a tatic and harrassment. See also: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Roscelese for previous warning and collusion and the following on Msnicki (talk) page:

Please stay as far away from me as you can. If I do something wrong, surely somebody else will notice and take care of it. You do not need to try to police my activities or to make frivolous accusations that I started an attack page. Really? The nerve!

Content was deleted after I pointed to it.

Itsmeront (talk) 07:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to ( Trustable Talk) I do think that the comments from Caroliano are very useful and should also be reviewed.

@Padenton: You nominated a whole bunch of programmming languages at the same time based on his list. I can't do a serious search for sources on so many languages at once, and I don't want to see them all deleted, so I came here to ask for help, as he was interested in Nim deletion, maybe he don't want some of those languages articles lost. And I do think Misplaced Pages is being hurt by this. Caroliano (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Itsmeront (talk) 08:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@Itsmeront: Not sure why you're linking the Roscelese enforcement request I brought to ArbCom, it doesn't support or serve as an example of a single claim you've made. All it shows is I'm a responsible Misplaced Pages editor that seeks admin assistance when an editor with previous restrictions reverts 1 1/2 weeks of a new editor's changes, possibly providing insufficient explanation. But here's an idea: how about you stay out of discussions you know nothing about? It seems more likely that you are the one with a grudge here, if you're digging through my history looking at every discussion I'm involved in. Is your goal to link to random discussions involving responsible acts by those you've accused in the hope that the reviewer of your claims will not read it and judge us guilty based on our being in those discussions? I said ask Trustable if he/she cares, not ask Caroliano. ― Padenton|✉   14:09, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

section deleted by request of EdJohnston. Itsmeront (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Everything above copied and pasted by: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmeront (talk • contribs) (this line written by Padenton)

Statement by Padenton

Once again, I'm not sure why Itsmeront has chosen to stalk me to unrelated discussions about which he knows nothing and then claim that I am the one harassing him. I am certain that EdJohnston would be happy to comment on taking his words so wildly out of context. My statement on Itsmeront's complaints regarding me and Msnicki can be found here: . I don't have the time nor interest in making sure Itsmeront has accurately quoted everything I said above (given the proof shown that he has made false accusations towards me before), but you can read my statement at that link. Once again, I am requesting this be closed with a boomerang of some kind for Itsmeront for the reasons I have already mentioned in my responses at that link. ― Padenton|✉   18:20, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with User:Padenton. It makes no sense that User:Itsmeront has done a cut-and-paste from an unrelated posting about ARBGG at WP:AE#Roscelese and brought it here. Unless Itsmeront is willing to revert his copying from AE, my suggestion is that an uninvolved editor should collapse that material. EdJohnston (talk) 19:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi EdJohnston. Thank you for your comment. I have removed the material you found non-sensical. The point I was trying to make by including it was that Msnicki and Padenton attack people that disagree with them with an "I'll show them", attitude that I find harmful to Misplaced Pages. One would NOT reasonably expect reprisals after making a successful argument in support of an article. Attacks against articles that have been adjudicated previously and found to be notable are now brought up for deletion, by the same two people. Other articles mentioned in an arguemnt that were notable, see: WP:N#TEMP are being recommended for deletion on mass. And in my opinion, deleted while nobody is looking, out of spite, or lust for reputation or power without proper research or consideration. I was hoping to show a pattern of this behavior with other users experiences, but I understand your point and hope that others with similar experiences will speak up. I doubt that Misplaced Pages would want to discourage argument by allowing over zealous editors to fight people that disagree with them with personal vendettas. Itsmeront (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

It's funny that despite everything you've done, you still seem to think that Msnicki and myself are the ones with the vendetta. This "I'll show them" attitude you claim I have is baseless. And far more harmful to wikipedia is your lack of integrity and repeated attempts to falsely accuse me of things I haven't done, your dishonesty in cherry-picking and taking comments out of context, and your attempt to canvas editors you see disagreeing with me in order to start a lynchmob:

1. Such as claiming I blackmailed Ymblanter on his talk page when I have never even said anything on his talk page
2. Cherry-picking comments of a completely unrelated discussion you know nothing about that I am participating in and copying and pasting them in here (especially without making it clear that they are excerpts from a completely different discussion)
3. Failing to notify editors who you are complaining about which I had to remind you of at Editor assistance.
4. Canvassing of editors I am in completely irrelevant disputes with in the hopes that they support your inane claim based on some issue they have with me elsewhere (This is called a vendetta, you hypocrite) as you did here: User_talk:Sonicyouth86#Misplaced Pages:Administrators.27_noticeboard.2FIncidents.23Inappropriate_Actions_and_behavors_by_Editors_Padenton_and_Msnicki.

The deletions of the articles on the list Trustable made in the Nim AfD. Let's discuss that for a minute.

1. You brought up the complaint that I nominated several of the articles Trustable mentioned for deletion in the Nim AfD.
2. You brought it up in the AfD here:
3. You brought it up here Misplaced Pages:Editor_assistance/Requests#Inappropriate_Actions_and_behavors_by_Editors_Padenton_and_Msnicki
4. You are now bringing it up here in ANI.

And all this time you fail to realize that Trustable fully supported my taking those articles to AfD. I notice you didn't notify Trustable of the new discussion.

That almost all of the ones I nominated ended up with a consensus to delete proves that other editors were unable to find evidence they met the notability guidelines, and that the AfD was warranted. The only articles that I nominated and remain from that list are:

• Halide (programming language) - Closed no consensus. Unsurprisingly, still has little evidence of its notability.
• Join-calculus (programming language) - Closed merge. Essentially a duplicate article of Join-calculus. Pretty much the equivalent of delete, as it will remain merely a redirect after that's done.
• Hope (programming language) - I never took this to AfD.
• Napier88 - I never took this to AfD either.

Clearly, based on the above, people didn't agree with you that slashdot, reddit, ycombinator, and github are reliable sources nor that they establish notability.

Newsflash: Just because you want to give your friend a WP:MEMORIAL, doesn't mean he's notable enough for Misplaced Pages, and any editor on Misplaced Pages is fully within their rights to dispute the notability. ― Padenton|✉   22:25, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Response From Itsmeront (talk)

My numbering doesn't match yours. Where there is a direct answer I have quoted your comment.

1. "Such as claiming I blackmailed Ymblanter on his talk page when I have never even said anything on his talk page "

• I have already corrected the record that it was Msnicki and not you that was accused of attacking an editor. I know you have read it, and seen the correction but even after it was corrected you mentioned it 3 times.

2. "Canvassing of editors I am in completely irrelevant disputes with in the hopes that they support your inane claim based on some issue they have with me elsewhere"

• Notifying users and editors is what you told me to do. I don't see this as canvasing.

3. Your actions to delete the articles were in retaliation to users that disagreed with you. I see no real research. Having other editors not want to take you on, I've seen other editors say you are constantly doing blanket, not properly researched, delete requests but I didn't mention them here, is exactly what I mean by deleting content when nobody is looking. complaints were ignored by you:

@Padenton: You nominated a whole bunch of programmming languages at the same time based on his list. I can't do a serious search for sources on so many languages at once, and I don't want to see them all deleted, so I came here to ask for help, as he was interested in Nim deletion, maybe he don't want some of those languages articles lost. And I do think Misplaced Pages is being hurt by this. Caroliano (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

and instead you attacked people that dared to disagree with you. See: User_talk:Caroliano Canvasing warning.

4. Not knowing where to air these issues is not the same as an attack against you. You have been citing quick close because this is not the right venue for this complaint. You could have pointed me to the right place instead of letting me flounder around. TransporterMan was nice enough to let me know.

Your words:

@Caroliano:Trustable did nothing. I'm the one who nominated them, as anyone should for any article that does not meet notability guidelines. The only reason these articles have not been nominated before is because no experienced editors had come across them, which is why WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a notability fallacy. If the article can stand up to scrutiny, it will remain. If not, it never deserved to be on Misplaced Pages in the first place. Stop acting like someone is being hurt over this. ― Padenton|✉ 19:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This to me is an attack against someone making a claim that blanket delete requests are not in Misplaced Pages best interest, both in terms of a hostile response, but also hostile actions in your warning, and deletion requests.

About Andreas Raab, he is and was extremely notable. I hope that you will be also be defeated in this AFD by editors that are more reasonable and less hostile then you. Your arguments against NIM are not the same as the augments here. Claiming number of citations on published articles, or position in naming on papers, is just nuts. Your argument for the deletions of Nim didn't hold water, and your argument against Andreas Raab even less. My biggest complaint is not about these two articles Nim and Andreas Raab. My complaint is your attack against people that argue against you. Misplaced Pages needs to be open to volunteers, and free of these types of attacks so that reasonable discussion can take place to improve the usefulness and quality of Misplaced Pages. This is not about protecting your Turf, and I hope that you will be properly punished for your actions. Itsmeront (talk) 23:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to respond to these in the order you presented them.

• The correction doesn't change the fact that you attempted to do it without checking your facts, which still seems to be a problem for you as you have continued.
• Read WP:CANVASSING. Notifying editors you have accused is required by WP:ANI policy. Notifying editors involved in a specific dispute is allowed by WP:CANVASSING. What you did was notify editors not involved in any way with this dispute, solely because you thought they would rally behind your attacks on me. This is called WP:Votestacking and is inappropriate canvassing.
• I've seen other editors say you are constantly doing blanket, not properly researched, delete requests but I didn't mention them here, is exactly what I mean by deleting content when nobody is looking. Those "other editors" have trouble understanding wikipedia policy. You have yet to show a single AfD where I did not properly research. You didn't mention them here because you know that they do not support your claim. Otherwise you would have no need to dig through in-progress discussions of no relevance to this dispute.
• Once again you have provided no evidence but your incessant whining. I don't care that you don't see "real research", as far as I have seen you will lie or use any fraudulent information you can to malign any who disagree with you. Anyone with common sense can guess that it would be wrong to pick and choose comments from disputes elsewhere, and paste them in here without even knowing what the dispute was about.
• Caroliano deserved the canvassing warning, again, read the policy here and get over it.
• Forgive me if I don't have the time to help you whine about me to every person on Misplaced Pages that you can. Especially when reading the top of Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests could have easily told you where to go.
• When you went to Trustable's talk page looking for anything you could dig up to attack me on, did you happen to notice the discussion before that post? Yeah....funny you don't mention that.
• Sadly, the say-so of a "friend of 10 years" isn't enough to support the claim that "About Andreas Raab, he is and was extremely notable."
• Claiming number of citations on published articles, or position in naming on papers, is just nuts. This is how it works in academia. Anyone can write a paper and papers are not enough to grant notability, especially when they have low citation counts. You can read more about it at the policy link I provided at the AfD, WP:ACADEMIC.
• Your argument for the deletions of Nim didn't hold water, My argument for the deletion of nim was that it wasn't notable. I'm sorry that you assumed every single person disagreeing with you wasn't a programmer (false) and therefore shouldn't have a say in the AfD (also false), and that github, slashdot, reddit, and ycombinator are reliable sources (yet again, false); but your inaccurate assumptions are not my problem.
• I am normally sympathetic towards new users, it was not too long ago that I was one myself. But my patience runs out when those new users refuse to read policy, make false claims against other editors, and bring up cherry picked discussions from another editor's history(which they know absolutely nothing about) in the hopes it will prejudice others against someone they disagree with. Misplaced Pages needs to be free of editors like that, you add absolutely nothing to the site and you have no interest in working with others when they disagree with you. Plenty of new wikipedia editors have little trouble reading about wikipedia policy when they're informed of it.
• This is not about protecting your Turf, and I hope that you will be properly punished for your actions. I have no turf. I'm just not going to sit here and take false accusations from you. Shocker. ― Padenton|✉   23:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Recommended close

Anyone is free to browse through the Nim, Andreas Raab and MX Language AfDs or the Nim DRV that Itsmeront complains about (I wasn't in any of the other cited discussions) and confirm that I've been consistently respectful, that my arguments have been consistently policy-based and that I've dutifully avoided responding to any of Itsmeront's silly taunts of vendettas and other nonsense. I've argued in good faith for deletion based on lack of reliable independent secondary sources to demonstrate notability. Itsmeront has argued for keep based on primary and self-published sources and popularity in social media and claimed without any plausible basis that the reason Padenton and I don't accept that as evidence of notability must be because we have it in for them.

I think this silliness has gone on long enough and recommend that this complaint be closed with no action beyond a warning to Itsmeront that making unsupported allegations of vendettas and repeatedly questioning other editors' good faith constitutes a pattern of WP:Personal attacks. It's not helpful and it's not allowed. If it happens again, Itsmeront should face a block.

Here at Misplaced Pages, we settle questions of whether, what and how to report based on WP:CONSENSUS. It is normal for people to disagree and that's why we've created everything from talk pages to deletion reviews where editors can present their evidence, explain how that satisfies the guidelines, argue for their position and seek support. It's also normal that even after an outcome has been decided, that not everyone will agree. Consensus does not require unanimity and we are all entitled to our opinions disagreeing with an outcome. All we ask is that you assume good faith and that you focus on the arguments and the evidence, not what you dislike about the other editors you may disagree with. You're entitled to your opinions about other editors; you're just not entitled to post every one of them.

Without clear evidence in the form of actual diffs, it is never helpful to speculate about the secret nefarious motives you suspect someone might have for their position, especially when their stated reasons are in fact all clearly guidelines and evidence-based and the real issue is that you just don't agree with the guidelines. It's also not helpful to cite irrelevant nasty things that others have said about someone. Who cares that someone else said something disrespectful? Itsmeront needs to find something that I said that was disrespectful. Itsmeront can't because it's not there. I behave myself and it's time Itsmeront started to do the same.

That's really all I have to say on the matter. Msnicki (talk) 17:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Resposne by ItsMeRonT

Both Msnicki and Padenton have been using Misplaced Pages editorial policy as a stick to poke people. I understand that Misplaced Pages editors are very important and I agree with the fact that deletions are a very necessary fact of life, lest Misplaced Pages turn into a garbage dump. The evidence is clear that the two editors that went after NIM is a way that seemed entirely unprofessional, then even took the close to Deletion Review, then took their show on the road against the person that argued against them. I thought there attitude so unprofessional I asked that:

• I would also ask that if Nim is going to be recommended for deletion in the future that Msnicki and Padenton refrain from submitting the article for deletion or participating in the discussions going forward Itsmeront (talk) 05:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2015_April_26#Nim_.28programming_language.29 Nim Deletion Review

Again I would like to state that it should be against Misplaced Pages policy to aggressively use Misplaced Pages rules to stifle argument, and then to retaliate by going after other submissions of people that argue against you is just plain wrong. That is not a good example of being a good Misplaced Pages editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmeront (talk • contribs)

WP:FORUMSHOP. Also, anyone who wants to look at this deletion review or the AfD will clearly see that it is Itsmeront with the vendetta. If you look at the AfD here: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Nim_(programming_language) Itsmeront repeatedly insisted that slashdot was a reliable source, and that anyone who disagreed wasn't a programmer, here is one such diff where he did so. Anyone who disagrees with Itsmeront must either be unqualified or bullying him. Anyone who shows him policies, consensus, guidelines, they all interfere too much for him, they must be wrong, or the person showing them to him is retaliating against him. ― Padenton|✉   21:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Suggested Resolution by ItsMeRonT

I've reviewed some of the comments and work of both Padenton and Msnicki and I find their work to be in general quite useful. I wouldn't want to ban them or stop them from working on Misplaced Pages since volunteers that dedicate so much time are quite valuable.

I ask for the following:

• A sincere apology on my talk page from both.
• A sincere apology to User_talk:Caroliano from Padenton
• That neither editor be allowed to submit NIM for deletion or participate in the augment against it in the future. There is another user I think he is named Trac that was quite against NIM so I suspect there will be no dearth of editors that can submit it and argue against it in a month or so.
• That the retaliation AfD Andreas Raab be removed. Again I'm sure that these editors have friends that will take up the cause for them. I don't mind arguing the facts, but it should not be done, or condoned by Misplaced Pages, in this manner. When emotions flare there is no reasonable arguemnt.

I hope I've presented my case in a calm an thoughful way. Thank you for your consideration. Itsmeront (talk) 19:40, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Sigh. Once again: the Andreas Raab AfD wasn't in retaliation, you are not the center of my world, neither is the WP:MEMORIAL you made for your friend 2 days after his death. I don't apologize when I've done nothing wrong. Your inability to understand the notability policies after being informed of them several times and your clear vendetta against anyone who disagrees with you, do not deserve an apology. It is not my fault or problem that Nim and your friend Andreas Raab are both of questionable notability, and you can't just have people barred from an AfD because they disagree with you. ― Padenton|✉   20:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional eyes and voices requested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Additional opinions sought here. Essentially, this user was blocked, deservedly so for his action, however a Discretionary notice was also placed on his page. Both I and Bosstopher disagree that this discretionary notice fits for what he did, and we're both requesting that the admin that placed it, remove it. Feel free to chime in either way. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 19:44, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

What is the problem?Jeppiz (talk) 19:47, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Per this section it cant be rescinded. The sanctions already refer to all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed.

All in all it looks appropriate from my view. Amortias (T)(C) 19:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Pass was blocked (deservedly so) for recreating Rape Jihad , however, he has a discretionary sanction that reads in part " The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b)". Rape Jihad doesn't come close to fitting that definition. Both Bosstopher and I agree with this, however, the issuing sysop, Future Perfect at Sunrise does not. While we all agree Pass should be blocked for continuously created a deleted article, the discretionary sanction doesn't fit what we created, nor is it in anyway appropriate, that's why I'm asking for additional input, either for or against. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 19:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions notices are frequently placed on talk pages for users that have not violated it. It explicitly says "It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date." And rape-related articles do appear to be within the scope of WP:ARBGG per this clarification request here: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Clarification_Request_.28March_2015.29 ― Padenton|✉   20:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not seeing the problem here. It's just a notice, it explicitly says that it is not a finding of wrong-doing, it's a notice that alerts the editor that these sanctions exist. You might have a good argument if the sanctions were the reason for the block but they weren't. Whether placing the notice was justified or not is not clear to me but since it had nothing to do with the block, the answer is moot. Liz 22:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

To clarify I'm not asking it be rescinded and am aware that DS alerts cant be rescinded. But I do believe that if GG sanctions were actualy enforced over the rape jihad/rotherham topic it would be an incorrect use of the sanctions. I would definitely take the issue to ARCA were that to happen. However given that the article has been deleted, the chances of this happening seem more unlikely. Bosstopher (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

My contributions to Emmanuel Lemelson and Lemelson Capital Management

Would appreciate your assistance. I have been an editor for a year and created the two articles above last year. I recently moved both to my sandbox so that I could make some modest improvements to both, including potentially restoring some content that was deleted for reasons largely unexplained and to potentially make other improvements, such as possibly adding new information in the year since I created both articles. Almost as soon as I moved both articles to my sandbox a few days ago, however, User:Smalljim began criticizing my involvement in the pages and saying that my contributions should be confined to the talk page. He has alleged that I have a conflict of interest, presumably because I dived into these two articles pretty aggressively and really have not had time yet to contribute much else. In reading Ignoring all rules--a beginner's guide and be bold, however, my approach seems permissible and encouraged. I have no conflict of interest and nothing about my edits has been unjustly critical or embellishing of the subject. In fact, despite review of both articles by multiple editors, the changes to my original drafts have been very modest and mostly cosmetic.

A lengthier exchange regarding all of this exists on my talk page. I am requesting that I be permitted to continue (time permitting) to make the modest modifications and additions to both articles in my sandbox and then, when I am comfortable that I've written them well and consistent with all guidelines, to move them live. I fully anticipate that my edits will be reviewed by others, and that's fine by me. I claim no ownership to the pages and am just looking to perfect what I believe to be two decent article contributions.

I first attempted to resolve this with User:Smalljim on my talk page. I guess we did not see eye to eye. I then referred it to DRN and COI. Neither of them felt it belonged on those pages.

Thanks very much for your attention and assistance. Orthodox2014 (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the DRN page and it seemed like the discussion was getting started. I don't know why the page was archived but I didn't see anyone saying that this was the wrong forum. Maybe @TransporterMan: can explain?

In general though, I think it is a bad idea to copy whole articles into your sandbox and replace the actual article with your new version of it. For one thing, other editors can make changes between the time you've copied the article and the time you replace it with your new version and while those edits would be recorded in the page history, they wouldn't exist in the article. Liz 22:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

The DRN thread was closed by TransporterMan, not because it was the wrong forum, but because it was filed manually, rather than using the template for the purpose. The editors can refile using the template, or can continue discussion at the conflict of interest noticeboard, but the discussion at COIN should be closed if DRN is started, to avoid conflicting discussions and forum shopping. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have 2 things to say on the matter, both of which aren't key to the actual issue.

Firstly, I felt it wasn't appropriate for WP:COIN because they said they didn't have a COI- so the issue didn't appear to be COI.

Secondly, when you report someone to noticeboards, you are obliged to inform them- in this instance, I informed User:Smalljim about this thread, and the other ones at DRN and COI too. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I did notify him on his talk page at 22:10, 12 May 2015, prior to your posting this. You must have missed it. Orthodox2014 (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I was drafting the following, but I see I've been pre-empted. Posting now without full check, so E&OE !  —SMALLJIM 

Emmanuel Lemelson is a hedge fund manager and, unexpectedly, also a Greek Orthodox priest. We have two articles: one on the person (EL), and one on his company, Lemelson Capital Management (LCM). Both have been extensively edited by Orthodox2014 (talk · contribs), whose only other edits have been to an AfD on the company, an AfD nomination of another fund manager, and a few edits to some related articles (example) and some other Greek Orthodox religious figures (example). This narrow focus has continued despite my suggestion in July last year that he could do something else to avoid the appearance of only being here to promote Lemelson.

In the two articles he has employed promotional wording designed to puff up the subjects (see this version for example), and has packed them with excessive references, on which he has been called out several times (see User_talk:Orthodox2014#Failed_verifications, Talk:Lemelson Capital Management, Talk:Emmanuel_Lemelson#Too_many_references and the LCM AfD). In July 2014 the LCM article was trimmed down to under 10kB in accordance with these opinions . But on 8 Oct, after working on a pre-trimmed version in his sandbox, Orthodox2014 pumped it up again to 23kB with the edit summary "update new references/developments, remove a category", which in fact added only a little new info, and substantially reinstated the removed references.

On 29 April this year, I got round to cleaning up both pages again – a task that had been on my back burner for some time. Soon after, Orthodox2014 started editing a copy of his last version of the EL article in his sandbox, suggesting that he intended to replace the live version with his preferred version again. His response to my enquiry indicates a strong sense of ownership. This is not the behaviour of someone who has WP's best interest as his first priority.

Orthodox2014 has firmly stated that he does not have a COI. Four editors have expressed concerns that he does, as I set out on his talk page, and I think the minimum we need is a topic ban on these articles. He has at least recently expressed a willingness to edit some other articles.  —SMALLJIM  22:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps this should have stayed at COIN. The heading for the noticeboard states This Conflict of interest/Noticeboard (COIN) page is for determining whether a specific editor has a conflict of interest (COI) for a specific article and whether an edit by a COIN-declared COI editor does not meet a requirement of the Conflict of Interest guideline . The question here is covered by the first part of that, whether the denial of COI by an editor who has only substantially worked on these two very closely related subjects should be accepted as settling the matter. DGG ( talk ) 23:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Coincidentally, DGG, in 2013 you deleted an earlier version of one of the pages. I don't suppose this could be connected?  —SMALLJIM  16:32, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Trigger happy Admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I do not believe this, BD2412 blocked me for reverting this edit as vandalism. I was very proud of my clean block record for the last 6.5 years. IMO this was a bad block, maybe this Admin behavior needs to be reviewed. Does anyone see this as a "Good Admin action" ? Damnit I'm pissed. Mlpearc (open channel) 22:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry about that. I have on more than one occasion seen a vandal revert a good edit as "WP:NOTBROKEN" or the like, as a form of sneaky vandalism, and jumped the gun in blocking before assessing your edit history to determine if this was the case. Clearly, I need to take a break from Misplaced Pages for a while. bd2412 T 22:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

It was a very poor block in a number of ways, and given bd2412's apology, is there a way to remove it from Mlpearc's block log? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that is possible. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I would endorse removing it from the block log. A 'crat can do that. bd2412 T 22:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well there you go then, just don't take it to heart Mlpearc =) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah! I wasn't aware that bureaucrats had that ability, hence my suggestion below. BMK (talk) 22:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd be more concerned that the unblocking edit summary doesn't acknowledge in any way that it was a mistaken block. If I was to look at that block log at the moment without any knowledge, I'd assume that Mlpearc was vandalising but then agreed not to do it any more. Black Kite (talk) 22:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't fault you, last I checked you were a human with flaws like everyone else. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:13, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't one way to flag the problem be to re-block Mlpearc for the absolute minimum amount of time, whatever that is (one minute? one second?), with an edit summary saying that the previous block was a mistake and shouldn't be held against the editor? BMK (talk) 22:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Good enough for me, I wasn't looking for the Admins head (kinda) I was more pissed at my no longer clean block record, which I see can be fixed. Thanx all. Mlpearc (open channel) 22:27, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Just to note, I've asked at the Bureaucrat Noticebaord for someone to take a look at this thread. BMK (talk) 22:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Afaik bureaucrats cannot remove those entries, if revdelete is not enough the last resort is suppression (of the entry, not of BD2412, ofc :p ). --Vituzzu (talk) 22:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, I (edit conflict)ed before when trying to say this from my mobile and copy paste doesn't work well. An admin should be able to hide the log entry and/or and OSer should be able to oversight it. This is based on experience from being a steward on DDOwiki and a crat on testwiki: like https://test.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3ALog&page=User%3ATechnical-13. — {{U|Technical 13}} 23:09, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• The simple way is for any admin, but preferably BD2412 themselves, to block the user again! Block for one second, in order to input a retraction of and apology for the previous block. See this section of the blocking policy: very short blocks are not to be used for recording something negative in the log, but "very short blocks may be used to record, for example, an apology or acknowledgement of mistake in the block log in the event of a wrongful or accidental block." Bishonen | talk 23:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC).

• Ah, yes, I see BMK said the same thing above. He's absolutely right. Bishonen | talk 23:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC).

Unfortunately bureaucrats cannot remove log entries. Also, using rev-delete to redact logs in this manner is specifically prohibited: Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion#Log redaction. I'm not sure I agree with that policy but, unless it is changed, the only option may be to add a further short block (say 1 minute) noting that BD2412 has acknowledged that his block was made in error. The fact that bad blocks cannot be readily expunged is precisely the reason why admins should take proper care before blocking users. WJBscribe (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• I consider this an instance that falls within Misplaced Pages:Revision deletion#Log redaction; it's not merely prettying up the log, but a removal of a frankly erroneous characterization on my part of the action in question. bd2412 T 23:39, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The exact text of the policy that WJBscribe mentioned above reads: Due to its potential, use of the RevisionDelete tool to redact block logs (whether the block log entry is justified or not) or to hide unfavorable actions, posts and/or criticisms, in a manner not covered by these criteria or without the required consensus or Arbcom agreement, will usually be treated as abuse of the tool. This suggests to me that if we reach a consensus here then this would be an appropriate use of the tool, it also suggests that IAR applies as "will usually be treated as" is not the same as "will be treated as". I think that anytime a consensus is reached here it would be well within scope to revdel the grossly offending bad block log entries. Those are just my thoughts on the matter though. — {{U|Technical 13}} 02:49, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

See User talk:NeilN/Archive 23#Ummmm?; it's common for accidental or otherwise bad blocks to happen, and the marked block logs remain. Flyer22 (talk) 01:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• I see BD2412 has added a note to the block log. Mind you, Mlpearc, isn't a clean block log a bit, you know, boring? Overrated, anyway. I'm very proud of my own colourful block log. Shows I've been to the wars. I added a userbox recently to showcase it. Bishonen | talk 11:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC).

LOL at your first block log: "Asked to be blocked, to experience it." That's like a "try anything once" mindset. Flyer22 (talk) 11:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

A review of the blocks placed by BD2412 is distressing. The blocking policy does not allow for good-faith editors to be blocked (blocked!) for violating the WP:INTDABLINK guideline. I'm counting at least half a dozen of these caviler blocks, and I'm not looking very hard.

Blocks are serious business. @BD2412:, please refamiliarize yourself with the blocking policy and commit to abide by it in the future. HiDrNick! 14:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I am more or less giving up blocking altogether, except in cases of severe vandalism. bd2412 T 14:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Probably a good idea. As for deleting the block, I agree that ref/del would be wrong. I speak as someone who was blocked purely in error by another Admin. He unblocked almost immediately with an apology in the block log. Dougweller (talk) 15:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Mistakes happen, there has been an apology and a commitment to greater care in the future. There is really nothing more to deal with behaviorally. As far are removing the log entries goes I would say if the rules to prevent that then it would be a good time to ignore those rules. Chillum 16:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Mlpearc has 100% pure, unblemished block log, just like my own. Zad68 16:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Chemonics COI

208.70.228.138 appears to be a single-purpose account with a conflict of interest engaged in blatant self-promotion. The IP is registered to Chemonics and just about all of the edits are promoting Chemonics. Examples: , , , Jon335 (talk) 00:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Diff of the IP's edits altogether: . WP:COI allows (though often discourages) edits by an editor who is connected to the subject. I'm not seeing too much blatant self-promotion by the IP. Some, perhaps, wouldn't go to blatant though. The article has been around 2 years, so there does not seem to be any evidence the IP made the article themselves to promote the company. Most business articles do discuss that business's sectors of work, though perhaps a paragraph would have been better. The global presence list was kinda pointless and redundant in my opinion. In the criticism section, 'frequent' is a violation of WP:NPOV, especially with such a small list of incidents and few references. (I've gone and removed that one myself). I don't know enough about the subject to comment on the other removals, so I'll agree the rest do appear to be a COI violation. ― Padenton|✉   01:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ordinarily I'd warn you about the dangers of investigating undisclosed COI, but for an IP it's a little different. Several of the IP's edits are things that someone with a COI probably should refrain from doing; e.g., deleting a maintenance tag, adding PR-speak. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:14, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:COI does allow for non-controversial edits, including the removal of maintenance tags that are no longer needed. At the time of removal the article was no longer an advertisement, though I suppose one might argue that the IP made it one after with adding the locations list and the business sector list. Whether that has merit, I don't know. The one source maintenance tag was rightfully removed, it was no longer accurate (the article was significantly expanded by Jon335 the day after it was tagged for one source by someone else ), and it doesn't have any explanation for the tag on the talk page. The primary sources tag is appropriate now though, so I added that. I think you're right on the PR-speak though. ― Padenton|✉   02:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Pro-Ukrainian POV pushing

MykhayloNaumenko has been deleting Russian names from many Ukrainian articles, primarily involving the Luhansk Oblast. Targeted articles include Sievierodonetsk, Lysychansk, and the Luhansk Oblast article itself.

I came across him when I noticed that the Russian name of Luhansk Oblast suddenly disappeared, and then I rv'd that when I found the diff.

He also has edit warred with Toddy1 for months over the Russian names being on enwiki. Ymblanter had blocked him for a day once for this. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 02:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Luhansk was affected too: Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 02:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

"Mykhaylo admits to be Ukrainian on his userpage." I didn't realize being Ukrainian was an offense one had to "admit to", but then I'm just a science geek. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

In the context of Ru-Uk war, a person starts erasing references to Russia in quite ridiculous ways, you suspect he is a Russia-hater, you check his user page and you see he is Ukrainian, you say "Gotcha!" someone is HOTHERE, naturally, the tongue slips: you identify ethnic hypernationalism which caused misbehavior with misbehavior itself. I forgot the name of the psychological phenomenon/logical blunder (something opposite to the halo effect, I believe). -M.Altenmann >t 06:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98: Both articles have been subject to POV-pushing... and it cuts both ways. Toddy1 and I have a lot of articles covered for this form of naming convention warring, and MykhayloNaumenko is but one such user (who has also made a few constructive contributions). If blocking were intended to be punitive, I dare say most editors would be long, long gone. As for this latest round, it should have been taken to 3RR as being edit warring. After that, we know the cycle: if the user doesn't genuinely learn from AGF errors, leave it to being an enough rope issue as the user is displaying NOTHERE tendencies. As noted by SBHB above, however, you know that using a user's ethnicity is the bottom of the barrel of the personal attacks stakes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that at this moment a respected admin must try and convince this person that wikipedia is not a political battleground. It appears that this user was not engaged in any talk page discussions beyond template slapping. -M.Altenmann >t 06:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That is because Toddy had reminded him many times and he didn't respond/listen. He didn't post on any talk pages except doing pagemoves. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 11:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I blocked that user for disruptive editing earlier this year. Since they claim their knowledge of English is en-0, I do not see what is the benefit of them editing English Misplaced Pages. We have enough Ukrainian power pushers here who at least speak some English.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment and question Is Russian an official language in those communities? I seem to remember reading Ukraine had made Ukrainian the only official language, or am I mistaken? If Russian is not official, it's not immediately obvious that it is vandalism to remove it. I understand that removing it can be a Ukrainian WP:POV and keeping it can be a Russian WP:POV, but as someone completely uninvolved, I don't necessarily see how one version is more POV-pushing than the other. Perhaps a more fruitful solution would be to have an established practice for the whole of Ukraine (personal view: Russian should be included in any municipality with a substantial Russian-speaking population, but that's a persona view and this is not the place for that discussion).Jeppiz (talk) 11:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

  This is indeed not vandalism but POV-pushing and edit warring (I think he overstepped 3RR on a couple of occasions). Since the population of these areas is exclusively Russian-speaking, the consensus is that names in two languages can be cited in the lede. Removals would need discussion, which the user was not interested in initiating.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Good day. I am Ukrainian. I removed Russian names not through RU-UA war! This is Ukrainian cities! I want in order the world to know that Ukraine is not Russian Federation. I understand your position. I will not to remove Russian names. Thank you for your consideration. P.S. Sorry for my English. --MykhayloNaumenko (talk) 15:38, 13 May 2015 (+3 UTC)

Unfortunately, there is a large bunch of recognized Russian-speakers around Donbass, who are quite influential in the region. Since these Russian-speakers form a notable part of Donbass' people, Russian names of their places are included. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 19:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Heavy sockpuppetry to sway AfD and repeted personal attacks

Yesterday I came across Margaret Varnell Clark as DMRRT, the WP:SPA behind the article added promotion for her self-published book to articles on my watch-list , , , . I found no hint of notability beyond that enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people who have publish something and launched an WP:AFD. Since then, DMRRT has tried a number of efforts to stop the AfD. First by trying to delete it . Next by engaging heavily in the discussion in a very emotional way with a large number of claims, not one of which stood up to scrutiny (this alleged "world leading researcher" has virtually no cites on Google Scholar, and no verifiable notability has been established.) The only other long-term user who commented on the Afd (at the demand of the SPA also recommended delete . Having tried to delete the AfD, appeal to emotions, launch personal attacks against me , the next step is now some very obvious sockpuppetry (either through direct socks or meatsocks) as the AfD has been joined by two "new" users. One is another WP:SPA-account that had not been active for one year , and then a new account whose only activity is to comment on the AfD . The duckiest of ducks in a long time. I've tried to explain and show to DMRRT how to show that an academic really is notable but the DMRRT just continues in the same way, which raises both WP:HEAR and WP:COMPETENCE issues. This is starting to turn a bit ugly and has implications beyond the AfD, so some admin input would be helpful.Jeppiz (talk) 11:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Apart from your accusations of puppetry this seems like a pretty run of the mill WP:VANISPAMCRUFTISEMENT AfD. May I suggest you file a Sockpuppetry report so that this can be investigated? Twinkle makes this simple to do.

I am not an admin, but I can't quite see what you wish admins to achieve here. Fiddle Faddle 12:02, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

You may be right, @Timtrent:. It was the additional WP:NPA (though pretty mild) but mostly the rather strong WP:COMPETENCE and WP:NOTHERE that made me come to ANI. Had it been just the socking, I would have filed a report.Jeppiz (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I did file a sockpuppetry report, but not holding my breath. Reports from April are still not even discussed . Misplaced Pages is really starting to have a massive problem with these backlogs building up everywhere.Jeppiz (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • It looks like there are two reports open at the same time: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/ DMRRT and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/DMRRT. The first report has an extra space in the title. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't know there was already one and that I had made a mess of the title. Have asked for my one to be redirected to Jezzip's. Cowlibob (talk) 16:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Another new user has somehow stumbled upon this AFD . Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The situation is getting unpleasant. The actual AfD looks simple enough, all 10 established users who have commented have said delete. At the same time, the situation that brought me to AN/I yesterday is escalating Even though I no longer take part, there is now an orchestrated WP:SPA (and likely WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT) campaign that largely consists of discussions about me. I already signalled in the diffs above how DMRRT had been joined by two new SPA-accounts (RCP110 and Literarydiva). Since then both those SPA accounts have returned, and been joined by a third, M0302. whose very first sentence on Wiki is to insist they aren't a sock. All three have a go at me and my "ego" , , . As the diffs show, all three also refer to DMRRT just as "DM", and all four of them (DMRRT and the three others) consistently call me she. I've never revealed my gender on Misplaced Pages. Quite apart from the effort to sway the AfD, this orchestrated attack on me is not pleasant. I make no claim to being perfect, and I probably should just have nominated the AfD and not discussed it (I've since left it and no longer interact with the users to avoid escalations), but all these rants about my "ego" are disproportionate.Jeppiz (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Nick2crosby

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On April 21th, Nick2crosby was unblocked from their indefinite block because they claimed to have been matured; however this does not seem to be the case; he opposed a RfA without a valid rationale, and did not explain their reason when asked. Furthermore, he opposed a closed RfA with the same invalid comment, despite the fact that closed RfA should not be furtherly edited. His comment on the non-closed RfA was moved to the talk page for further discussion. --TL22 (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@ToonLucas22: When you posted here you should have seen a note: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." I've done so for you. --NeilN 19:58, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• OK, I'll be the jerk here. It's "immaturity", and I have removed the other term from the heading since it's a bit not so neutral. Second, Nick2crosby's been ripped a couple of new holes by a couple of editors now, and an ANI thread is certainly not necessary. Let's move on--someone close this please. Drmies (talk) 00:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

United States Merit Systems Protection Board

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive876#Editorous_is_on_a_crusade
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive881#Editorous_at_it_again

Now editing while logged out: 74.92.159.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I've opened an SPI but given stuff like this, can we indef the master and temp block the IP? --NeilN 19:41, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Si se puede. Drmies (talk) 00:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Continuing with the derogatory nicknames. --NeilN 19:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Hey, if that article is targeted again (I saw three different IPs and blocked one of them), ping me and I'll semi-protect it. This is stupid. Drmies (talk) 00:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks Drmies. Will do. --NeilN 00:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog needs administrator intervention, please?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am requesting either an indefinite block, an iBan to prevent Jytdog from harassing me, a topic ban to prevent him from further disruption of the Misplaced Pages:Advocacy_ducks essay or other form of administrator action to prevent his disruptions and bullying behavior. He was warned not that long ago by Swarm about his behavior in a relatively recent ANI as evidenced here: March 28, 2015

I have been working on moving the essay Misplaced Pages:Advocacy_ducks from my sandbox to the main space; an essay Jytdog has relentlessly disrupted from when it was a fledgling essay under a different title with a different focus months ago. Several editors have invested a great deal of time and energy addressing the criticisms in order to produce a quality essay, and we accomplished that goal. I was in the process of moving the new essay over to main space - (I apologize, but I am not experienced with moving articles and their TP) - but before I had a chance to complete my work, Jytdog interfered and created a TP for the essay without any prior discussion. He just took it upon himself to do whatever the heck he felt like doing which is not at all unusual for him and what he has been getting away with for quite some time. I mistakenly believed he was trying to help me so like a naive fool, I thanked him. In the interim, I contacted BDD asking for help in making the move a clean transition because the TP did not move with the essay. BDD was kind enough to offer his assistance. However, Jytdog continued to interfere with what I was trying to accomplish while pretending to be accommodating about the move. Please see the chronological sequence of events:

• Initial move from my sandbox
• (cur | prev) 10:28, May 13, 2015‎ Jytdog (talk | contribs)‎ . . (567 bytes) (+567)‎ . . (talk header, history) (thanked) <--sorry but I couldn't pull up the diff but the link is here: which shows he created the TP prior to any discussion.
• Requested help with the move from BDD
• Jytdog acknowledged it was ok to nuke his comments
• I attempted to delete the links that simply refer back to the new pages, not the history
• Jytdog reverted my edits: , , ,
• <-- demonstrates his animosity toward me. My changes to Jytdog's edits to the TP of the Essay I authored and was in the process of moving took place after he said it was ok to nuke his comments.
• Advised him on his TP that I was taking this to ANI, but he archived it.
• Jytdog posted an edit warring template on my TP
• The next diff will be my notice to him that I have taken this issue to ANI. I will provide that diff as soon as I hit save and initiate this ANI. Something has to be done about Jytdog's aggressive behavior toward other editors. I am appalled that he is behaving this way in light of the fact BDD was involved in helping me get everything moved. Atsme 19:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

To confirm that Jytdog was advised read his sarcasm: Jytdog said "File away; nothing will come of it except further damage to your reputation." Also notice on his TP: Atsme 20:05, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I think you're really overreacting. What Jytdog said was that it was OK to nuke the whole Talk page to enable the move. What you actually did was to delete only part of Jyt's comments in-place, that would not have anything to do with making the move easier, maybe you didn't understand that. Jyt's explanation here is correct. BDD is experienced at moving pages and got the job done, while preserving the history. The move is complete, the histories are kept and it's fine now. Zad68 19:53, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment - no Zad, I am not overreacting. He was disruptive on purpose and if admins keep excusing this behavior it will never change. I'm sure Jytdog appreciates your defense of him but this time it is unwarranted. I ask that you please not distract from the issue which happens to be the fact that he added a Talk Page before contacting anyone about doing so - he knew full well I was adding that essay which is why he took it upon himself to do whatever he pleased. His purpose was to derail my essay, include links that he thought would discredit it including links to a history that were not even relevant to the new essay. Worse yet, the links he provided pointed right back to the redirects made by BDD and had nothing to do with the history. If you had taken the time to investigate those links, you would have known why I was making those changes. It was a work in progress and Jytdog overstepped his boundaries. Atsme 20:50, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm actually trying to help and defend YOU here Atsme. And now here you're saying to Jyt, Respond to the case I initiated at ANI and we'll go from there. If the results do not reflect justice, my intention is to initiate an ARBCOM... Good grief. Good luck with that, I'm done trying to help here. Zad68 21:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts, Zad, but I am now dealing with a speedy delete of the essay so it looks like you are probably being played by this group of advocates. I think the time for ARBCOM is probably as ripe as it's going to get. Atsme 21:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Here we see Atsme changing Jytdog's talk page comments and than edit warring over it.. One of the difs you mention is him requesting you not do it again You then bring this to ANI? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Doc James, with all due respect, Jytdog's errors go beyond what is defensible. I was IN THE PROCESS of fixing the history of the TP - keep in mind this move was still in process and Jytdog never said one word about anything to anyone. He just ABF. He attempted to link to the history of the essay - most of which was not even relevant because it was a totally different essay. It's easy for us to make empty arguments and express our POV without diffs, but the diffs actually show where Jytdog screwed up because BDD made redirects. I suppose you didn't take that into consideration. You should because if you did, you wouldn't be arguing in Jytdog's behalf. Atsme 22:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• • I'm assuming good faith on Atsme's part, I think they genuinely believed the URLs in Jyt's comment were somehow preventing the move from happening smoothly. Zad68 20:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes, if that is the case, they would do well closing this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• just a note that i am aware of this. nothing else to say. Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Only addressing the events described in this section, I don't think Jytdog has really done anything wrong, though there's certainly a misunderstanding. In context on my talk page, I think it's clear Jytdog was open to this version of the talk page being overwritten in the course of moving User:Atsme/sandbox Advocacy ducks to Misplaced Pages:Advocacy ducks, along with the corresponding talk page. I don't think the suggestion was that anyone could just edit away those comments, though that is perhaps not a wildly unreasonable interpretation of Jytdog's statement. When it comes to editing others' talk pages comments, though, you really can't be too conservative. --BDD (talk) 20:22, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, yes. I invited BDD to nuke the talk page to move the talk page from userspace; I did not invite Atsme to edit my comments. Jytdog (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

What you and others don't seem to understand is that your links were not useful because they pointed back to the page that contained the links. To begin, you should not have interfered with my move of the essay. You screwed things up and made it more difficult for me to complete my work. It was a work in progress. It is not unlike what you did to SlimVirgin regarding a work in progress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 21:27, 13 May 2015

Are you referring to when SV got mad because Jytdog had the temerity to edit the GlaxoSmithKline article while she claimed to be in middle of a major rewrite? Uh, I don't think SV gets to WP:OWN that article just because she wants to. Formerly 98 22:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Because we all know who owns GlaxoSmithKline. AlbinoFerret 22:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I undeleted the article and suggested that it be taken to WP:MFD. I looked at it, and reviewed the prior MFD (which had a massive consensus for delete), but did not compare the versions. Chrislk02 21:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Chris, I wonder if you would consider reviewing the essay itself and give a brief comment. If not you, then someone very uninvolved really should give the essay a read, and give us a straightforward take on the essay itself, not on past conversations about it. It is important to know what we are talking about here. I will note that editors on both sides of the previous deletion discussion were recently pinged for input. Jytdog did weigh in, and made changes that stuck (except the one he couldn't defend, which was to remove the suggestion that editors be civil and kind). He made no indication that he was still so displeased that he would want it deleted.

On another note, I find a bit of "I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" going on at Misplaced Pages and in this thread, which makes comments from an editor's consistent defenders far less compelling. When people run around in packs it is quite impossible not to notice (after months and years of observing these patterns). Earlier today, Jytdog removed information from his talk page, whilst leaving all other conversations intact, only hours after I left it. Why was this entry treated differently from all others? I don't know, but the entry showed that a close associate of his, Formerly98, had complained about a section in the Cannabis (drug) article that was created by Alexbrn/SandyGeorgia/DocJames. Jytdog suggested the problems F98 observed were due to "cannabis fans" editors pushing against the Project Medicine team (contrary to evidence). My point is that teamwork on Misplaced Pages, at a certain point, can become really problematic because the articles/truth/ANIs are victims of this buddy system. petrarchan47คุก 22:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where you come up with this stuff Petra. What have you been smoking? :>) Formerly 98 23:36, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Petra, I have to wonder the same. I happen to see an edit summary at ANI that piques my curiosity when it pops on my watch list, happen to look at this section, discover by chance that my name has been invoked here (in other words, I am not here scratching anyone's back-- I am here because you mentioned me, inaccurately by the way, and didn't bother to ping me), then spend 20 minutes trying to figure out what on earth you are talking about, and the only thing I can find is several discussions about text that I had nothing to do with, and several misstatements that came from ... you. The Medicine Project never completely overhauled any articles, and I certainly did not. Trying to get anything done was an uphill struggle; little progress was made. Please stop dragging me in to your issues, and making stuff up. (Formerly, if you are aware of any problems with any text I wrote, please ping me in!) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, you deleted another editor's comments from a TALK page and you're here to complain about it? You're not supposed to do that. Further, you present a warning given to Jytdog regarding his interactions with a different editor in a manner that suggests that the warning was in regards to his interactions with you? This isn't good at all. Formerly 98 22:09, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98, you know I respect your input and have always maintained a NPOV. In this particular situation, the editor in question was wrong when he created a Talk Page without discussing it with the mover/author first. He simply took it upon himself to be bold, but this was not a situation where he should have exercised that privilege considering the history, which he actually helped create. I was in the process of moving that essay from my sandbox to main space and recruited the help of an admin to make the move uncomplicated. It is quite clear that Jytdog doesn't want my essay to see the light of day . Please don't throw stones at me when we are all standing inside glass houses. Jytdog created this mess with his ridiculous edit warring notice on my TP knowing full well I was still in the process of the move. I continue to maintain faith in the powers that be at WP to recognize what's right is right. I would not have initiated this ANI if I thought for one minute I had done something wrong. I would be one of the first to apologize for my stupidity if the latter is actually the case. That is not the case now. Atsme 22:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, you moved the essay over at 13:39 today (IIRC, the page had been created via copy and paste even earlier than that but the history won't show that) and it wasn't until 15:28 that Jytdog created the Talk page . Normally the Talk page is created right after the article is created, and given that there were two hours before the Talk page was created, it's not unreasonable for someone to go ahead and create it. Ca2james (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Now all of a sudden WP has a deadline?

1. I admitted I was not well-versed in making such a move.
2. I managed to move the essay, but was having issues moving the Talk Page. I thought they both went together.
3. I put a help template on my user TP, and also contacted BDD for help hoping I could expedite the move.
4. Before I could get everything arranged, I naively believed Jytdog was trying to help, but instead of moving the actual TP, he created his own, and therein the problem lies. He should not have created a new TP when there was an existing TP that belonged to that essay and it was still in my user sandbox.

I normally exercise an abundance of patience and have always done my best to be polite and accommodating to others, but Jytdog stepped over the line and this isn't the first time. Each time he gets off with a hand slap, his bad behavior escalates. To make matters worse, when I tried to fix the mess he made of my move, he posted an edit war warning on my TP. Excuse me, but trying to defend his actions under the circumstances should be raising some brows. Atsme 01:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

atsme i am sorry you were confused and frustrated by the task of moving your essay. i have created scads of Talk pages - it is something i do when i come to a page i haven't been to before. i was not at all trying to interfere with you and i did nothing wrong. but again i am sorry you are frustrated. Look at #9 on your list of Examine your Edits, and look at the responses above. Please withdraw this. Jytdog (talk) 01:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

PLEASE CLOSE THIS INCIDENT AS WITHDRAWN BY OP

I apologize if I inconvenienced any of the admins here and request that this incident be withdrawn. Jiminy Cricket, Jytdog, please try to be more considerate of the work of others, especially works in progress, and at least ask before you make such bold moves, especially when it involves a move from a user's sandbox. What I can't understand is what provoked you to do such a thing knowing the essay had its own TP with a rich discussion history. The natural thing to do would have been to ask me what happened to the TP before you created a new one. Now we've lost the convenience of having the TP discussion history linked to the essay, unless someone can advise me of another way to make that happen. Archives Atsme 04:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:RayvnEQ

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RayvnEQ is currently serving a 48 hour block for edit warring, personal attacks and a battleground attitude. Their appeals indicate that their behavior will continue after the block ends and make me think that the best option is to extend the block to be indefinite. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block. His behaviour enters WP:CIR territory. I'm sorry, RayvnEQ, but it seems that way. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. User_talk:NeilN#Inappropriate_displaying_of_information_on_Black_people, User_talk:Malik_Shabazz#Your_inappropriate_conduct_on_Black_people_article Polite requests to fix their signatures are simply reverted , (who the heck reverts Anna?) indicating the bare minimum level of collegiality won't be met. --NeilN 20:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. I followed their rampage yesterday, wreaking havoc wherever they went, and thought that it was either a case of an editor having totally lost it, or a compromised account, but reading some of the stuff they've added to their talkpage today, still being totally out of touch with reality, I no longer think it has been compromised, leaving only the first alternative. They can be blocked for a long list of reasons: CIR, battleground mentality, disruption, harassment and not being being here to contribute to the project. So take your pick, but do it. Thomas.W 20:19, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Template:CUE Support a one year block and extend the WP:STANDARDOFFER. — {{U|Technical 13}} 20:22, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Non sequitur alert! – OK, I have to ask now, as I've seen Tech 13 do this more than once: What is {{CUE}} supposed to do? And why was it deleted? Or am I missing something here?... --IJBall (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

{{CUE}} used to be "comment by uninvolved editor", but was deleted per this discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Indef block, user is clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia but rather to make sure we all acquiesce to their demands. Those unblock requests are truly amazing. Let's just nip this in the bud before the inevitable endless ANI threads about their behavior. §FreeRangeFrog 20:40, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. I have been watching this unfold, and at one point tried to offer advice on how to de-escalate the situation - which went unheeded. Frankly, I don't think this contributor has the ability to contribute usefully, and as battleground behaviour goes, there can be few more overt examples than that shown in RayvnEQ's earlier comments regariding the initial block: Basically, RayvnEQ seems incapable of understanding what the issues are, and has repeatedly responded to criticism through a bizarre literalist interpretation of comments that defies logic. I could speculate about what is behind this, but that would be neither necessary nor proper - the point is that contributing to Misplaced Pages requires social skills (specifically communication skills in a context where disagreement is inevitable) that the contributor simply doesn't have. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block. This user has had the same account since 2008. If they haven't learned how to comport themselves according to Misplaced Pages standards after 7 years, I hold out little hope that will change any time soon. --‖ Ebyabe - Attract and Repel ‖ 20:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC) (who is not a woman, contrary to RavynEQ's opinion)
• Given the latest unblock request, which just continues the same battleground tirade, and the consensus above, I have extended the block to indefinite and recommended that she contact WP:BASC for further appeals. --Jayron32 20:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

abusive email from subject of article

I received a rather abusive email from someone who appears to be the subject of the article deleted as a result of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ed Rush. As I understand things, you have to be a registered editor to send emails to other editors, but I can't find this person as a registered user. It appears to have come from EdRush1 (talk · contribs). Rather than disclosing the person's email and the content here, perhaps a helpful admin could email me and I'll forward the full email for investigation via email. The Dissident Aggressor 21:49, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

EdRush1 registered on May 5, as can be seen here. They have made no edits. Mr Potto (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That's the same date of the email of the email I received. It looks like this user created an account just to send the email. The Dissident Aggressor 21:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@DissidentAggressor: You can forward it to OTRS if you wish, although there's not much any admin can do beyond blocking for abuse of the email function. Hopefully you didn't reply, otherwise that reveals your own email to them. §FreeRangeFrog 22:05, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all. I've emailed OTRS. The Dissident Aggressor 11:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

OTRS ticket received, EdRush1 blocked (sans email access, naturally). Yunshui _水 11:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Editor with a long disruptive pattern

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Serten, with an extensive block log in the German Misplaced Pages (over 40 blocks), Serten_II is another account of the same user.

Recently

Example of user calling other comments contentious, a term he often uses, i.e. three times in this AfD discussion of one of his articles.The same discussion Guettarda pointed out that the user made a untrue statement. The user is reluctant in his argument and edits to understand what a reliable source is, besides it has been pointed out several times to him. For instance i spent great length trying that here.

Here he follows my comments, just to post his opinion, or posts the discretionary sanctions notification on my talk page, or alleges that i work for a propaganda outlet.

Recently, he tagged the article of Naomi Oreskes with BLP, COI, POV, multiple issues. And prior to that added unreliable sources. However, asked by another user to provide reliable sources, refuses to do so, instead removed a comment from me, where i honestly ask if the user Polentario is his old account, since that has been suggested, and fits the edit pattern.

Past incidents

Last year, at Scientific opinion on climate change, he kept editors busy with a RfC request, page move request, or tagging pushing NPOV (several edits), and had lengthily discussions, which went basically nowhere, Archive_21. His actions were tagged as disruptive and ended in a 3RR complaint, and resulted in a block, also because he has been warned prior to that incident at ANI.

I had a run in with him last year, when he filed an AfD on the German article for Scientific opinion on climate change, which i created, and claimed it was in violation with WP:NPOV. Subsequently the article has been deleted at the German Misplaced Pages.

More examples

At Ozon depletion and climate change, he fundamentally changed article content, without reliable sourcing, violating NPOV, with his second account Serten_II Into the same article he added an article link and content, Reiner Grundmann, which is currently contested at AfD, and which he seems to add to as many articles as possible.

At Renewable resource he changed definition among many more scope related content changes without providing reliable sources.At Michael Oppenheimer he removed important key points. At Desertec he changed meanings of text, and added a critical article based on a German source.

So far each page i looked up, listed here, seems to have been altered to fit the view of the user. prokaryotes (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Long pattern of NPOV pushing

If you take the time and look up his edit history, you find that many edits lack basic Misplaced Pages standard, often NPOV applies, example here, or here, when he taggs without prior talk page discussion, an article under discretionary sanctions, or on the same article talk page, alleges a hidden agenda, and was accused of WP:SOAPBOX, by Kim D. Petersen.

Basically WP:CIR seems to apply here together with a pattern of disruptive edits over a long time, which kept many editors busy who tried to reason with him on various occasions, i.e. with user Dmcq, Stephan Schulz, NewsAndEventsGuy, and others. I didn't noticed a single talk when he was able to reach a consensus with an editor. Considering the long pattern of disruptive edits, inability to understand Misplaced Pages guidelines and rules, constant NPOV pushing, i suggest to block the user indef. prokaryotes (talk) 22:01, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment from User:Serten

The announcement is sloppy from the very begin. prokaryotes posted the announcement on my User:page, the talk page would have been the goal. . I found it by chance. So he didn't play along the rules. I ask to close this quickly.

If nevertheless one wants to have a look on his accusations, some examples for false play:

1. NPOV pushing: My here Kirchner edit started a discussion that ended in an afD. Now a redirect. Sorry, thats how it works sometimes.
2. Naomi Oreskes: Prokaryotes accuses me a) to have have added unreliable sources and b) of having failed to provide reliable sources after another user asked me to. . He reverted twice on an climate change related field. I put the Arbitration tag on the article talk page and gave Prokaryotes the arbitration warning (on his UserTALKPage) as required and started a discussion on the talk page. I was the user that asked for reliable sources on the talk page and gave reasons for the tagging. He didnt contribute anything of value to the discussion on the article, but tried a sideshow. In fact, the unreliable sources came from Nature (magazine) and Biosociety. With an doi. Peer reviewed. The first scientific reviews ever for this article. He doesnt like that.
3. Talk:Paleoclimatology#Removed_bogus_source. Prokaryotes accuses me of following me and he calls a Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Prize and Logan Medal laureate research a Bogus source. Nice wording.
4. Rest is Popcorn stuff - e.g. Desertec is a German project that failed large scale and goes on small scale. I dared to add German sources that showed that. I know, Loose lips sink ships and Ware spies! You didn't oughter said it! But zats what ze WP is about in ze meanwhile, rite?

I don't see any reason to come up with an infite block out of the blue. Prokaryotes has a bone to pick with me, thats clear. According his user page. he is working with a blacklisted (on deWP) climateportal. Last year, I made it clear that something like List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming nor Scientific opinion on climate change never ever would have a WP:Snow change to be accepted in the deWP. Nevertheless , Prokaryotes tried and failed, I was responsible for the AfD. Sysop Karsten11 made it very clear, quote No suitable article, NPOV, redundand, on basic principles no such Scientific opinion on xy is to be accepted in the deWP. As I had told him. I won't file another afD here. Prokaryotes went on. Recently he filed on AfD on my entry Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Reiner_Grundmann. He seems to have understood in the meanwhile that this has no chance to go through. but attempts to have me blocked here. I could provide similar comments on the other allegations, but I ask to close this case and remind Prokaryotes of basic rules of engagement and WP Civil. Thank you. Serten 01:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at large, no popcorn

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to see the forest for the trees in the complaint. I did look at the AfD, and while I have serious problems with the Grundmann article, the guy is so obviously notable (if DGG says an academic is notable, an academic is notable; that should be listed at WP:OUTCOMES) that the AfD makes no sense. I also looked at Ozone depletion and climate change, where we were supposed to see some "fundamental change in article content"--well, maybe we did, but that's what we do here, and I didn't see anyone protest it in the article history, though where was a discussion on the talk page (not with Prokaryotes). And that's the kind of evidence on which we are supposed to build an indefinite block? Drmies (talk) 01:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

This discussion here is not about that article. I posted the link to here because the user is inserting links to the article and adds content, in the same fashion as you did just removed form that article. And to sum up your input about the ANI; based on above outline you dismiss the request, because you do not find one of the hundreds of edits convincing. However, the block request is in response to a long term pattern of disruptive edits, thus judging on a single edit is missing the point. There are two accounts, both edited dozens of articles. prokaryotes (talk) 01:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Serten is not the easiest person to work with (his single-mindedness can be exhausting) but there's nothing to merit an indef block out of the blue. You'd need clear behavioral issues for that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• If it's not about that article then don't bring it up. I don't seen hundreds of diffs. I saw the AfD (if I weren't in such a great mood I'd point you to WP:BEFORE), and you want someone blocked because they said "contentious" three times? You want someone blocked because they disagreed with you about the use of certain kinds of sources? Now, the COI claim may actually have merit to it (Stephan Schulz did not dismiss it, just said it was misapplied)--and if it was of no relevance to the Oreskes matter--OK, you want us to indef someone for that? No, you are not going about this the right way. I mean, I'd be happy to block Serten, and Serten II, since that means I get double payment from the WMF, but as SBH Boris says, we need to see clear evidence of a longterm pattern of disruption. And I don't see that. And if I don't see it (and I'm one of the ones you're asking for the block), your job is not to tell me that I'm blind, but rather to make a better case. Drmies (talk) 02:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, carefully look at the Ozone depletion and climate change revision link i provided above. 1) Removes entire paragraphs mentioning the chemical properties of Ozone. 2) Creates article based on existing content, including references which what appears WP:Weight issue, i.e. the article contains still 4 references to Grundmann today, an article about Ozone depletion and climate change, way to hijack a topic i would say. 3) Adds non neutral NPOV about the IPCC, quote The IPCC was to orchestrate global (climate) change research to shape a worldwide consensus, there is a book ref from 1996. Now if i look at a search for this book author, a comment pops up from Reiner Grundmann, when he mentions that book's author and wrote Following Bruno Latour, one of the protagonists of the science wars, one would need to open the 'black boxes' of scientific facts in order to show how they were constructed, thus exactly in line with the lede and article contents of Climate change denial (denial or dismissal of the scientific consensus on the extent of global warming) AND with the notion of denial to create controversy AND with the content the user added. Climate science is not constructed, it is based on observations, emperical evidence - facts. And the IPCC is not there to orchestrate a consensus, see Scientific opinion on climate change And this is just one of the many edits, where the user tries to create notability by adding the name and work to various articles he edits, in violation with NPOV AND COI. prokaryotes (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll be glad to give you some free advice, which I call Free Advice to Successfully Avoid Instant Failure at ANI. If the explanation of the problem is that lengthy, it's not going to happen. And in this case you seem to have a content conflict of sorts, unless you want to argue that Serten is plugging Grundmann's work, but that ought to be a very different kind of case. (BTW, that Grundmann needs to be added to articles to establish his notability is a moot point: he's notable by our standards.) Sorry, but you're just not making the case. Drmies (talk) 03:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• My case is based on WP:DIS - Their edits occur over a long period of time; in this case, no single edit may be clearly disruptive, but the overall pattern is disruptive. That there is a possible case for COI, only became relevant after i started to browse more past edits, as outlined above. I agree, it is lengthily, but long term pattern can not just be outlined with a few divs and judged then. prokaryotes (talk) 03:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that Serten's "contributions" tend to be poorly written and too often agenda-driven, and that they create lots of extra work for those who have to clean up after him. But frankly Misplaced Pages just doesn't care about things like that. For him to be blocked would require behavioral missteps such as long-term edit warring, personal attacks, and such. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

If so, thousands of articles, I dare say, if you take the two. Some dozens just went in DYK/Schon gewusst on two WP mainpages. Serten 01:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• User stats for Serten and User stats for Serten_II prokaryotes (talk) 01:51, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• ANI Request Abandoned I cancel my ANI request, since I m unable to convince two experienced editors, and because of the backlog on this page. I thought i had a case, but i was wrong.prokaryotes (talk) 04:19, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit war about personal attack

I removed a WP:NPA violation from Talk:Honor Harrington. I admit that I was the victim of the attack, and therefore not the most uninvolved party, but I still though (and think) it was a real WP:NPA violation. The editor who posted it, User:Scjessey, then removed my previous edit, childishly and incorrectly claiming it was also a WP:NPA violation, and when I undid that, he undid my preceding edit. Note that in between, I warned him on his talkpage to stop his childish behavior. Please note that he has since removed that post from his talkpage, and has posted a derisive comment about it on mine.

I'd appreciate your opinions either way. Meaning that if I am exaggerating, and Scjessey's comment is not such as can be removed as a WP:NPA violation, I will desist. Or if it is, then please tell Scjessey so, and he should desist. Debresser (talk) 22:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That was really rude, I can't fault you for removing it, Debresser. Also, Scjessey's retaliation here was pretty childish (note the edit summary). I haven't gone back in the history of your mutual irritation, but from the recent exchange, certainly Scjessey is more at fault. Nevertheless, on the principle Misplaced Pages:There is no justice, I suggest the best thing would be for both of you to stay away from Talk:Honor Harrington for at least the next 24 hours, and from each other's talkpages for the foreseeable future. Bishonen | talk 22:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC).

User:Sirswindon, Rinaldo Paluzzi and Abstract expressionism

• Sirswindon (talk · contribs)
• Rinaldo Paluzzi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Abstract expressionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This has been going on for over a month, and can be embroidered with dozens of diffs, of which a few would suffice. Mostly a perusal of edits at Abstract expressionism and its talk page will tell the story: Sirswindon edit warred to include Paluzzi in the article on Abstract expressionism. Once consensus went against him, he took to its talk page to argue over the inclusion of numerous artists, most of whose affiliations with Ae are easily documented, if not always included in Wiki articles. There are, as far as I can tell, no published sources supporting Paluzzi's connection, formally or stylistically, to Ae, but the WP:POINTY continues. See , , , , then removal of argument before starting anew and targeting other bios , , and returning to Ae , lobbying other editors , , , , , (restoring this awful tripe along the way) , removing the cite template without providing the source , and reacting now by returning to Ae and moving to other bios, misappropriating my edits as rationale , , , , , . I've tried to be selective in offering diffs here (!); in the end, this is all about being challenged on the Paluzzi attribution, and declaring to do a spring cleaning as retribution. JNW (talk) 02:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

JNW I accept your caution and will attempt to find a reference to his his work being stylistically similar to the Abstract Expressionists. Sirswindon (talk) 02:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

To administrators: I've only included diffs to some of Sirswindon's edits. Up to two weeks ago I was still attempting to respond in good faith , , , ; please see the last two sections here, which I eventually removed after concluding that the user's motives had not changed . JNW (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It is common for editors who are fans of notable but "mid-tier" artists to try to promote them by including them in articles about genres and art movements. These articles should only include the most famous and iconic representatives of those genres. So please desist, Sirswindon. That being said, this seems to be a garden variety content dispute, and I see no need for use of the administrator's toolkit at this time. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know, Cullen--I think this is a bit more. These diffs indicate a fairly large number of potentially disruptive edits, and this is really quite pointy. This goes back at least to April on Talk:Abstract expressionism, and it seems that little headway is made (in terms of a proven understanding of RS, etc.--though in April already Sirswindon said, "Modernist, I do apologize, if the future I will do as you have suggested", which sounds a lot like the comment above. (And they should be glad they didn't run into Postmodernist, who has no mercy since they don't believe in values anymore.)

  Anyways, if we take Sirswindon at their word, that they will find a reliable reference, and if they were to add "and in the meantime I will not make the kind of edits that proved quite disruptive in article space and on the various talk pages", then no admin action is necessary. But, Sirswindon, barring that, an admin may take action since, as far as I can tell, you are just taking up too much valuable time with rather interminable discussions and forum posts. Really, don't cite the dean of any department. Drmies (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute that is being complicated by commenting on contributors rather than on content, but is basically a content dispute. It appears that it might benefit from moderated discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Are the parties willing to close this thread and take it to DRN? If the discussion there gets into too much commenting on contributors, it will be closed and may have to come back here. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Editor with continuous unconstructive behaviour

The user PavelStaykov (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) since March 2015 constantly does disruptive edits, or starting loose discussions, currently on the Dulo clan article, previously on the Bulgars article, and recently copy-pasting the same wall of loose (fringe) theories to the Huns article talk page. The user was in this three months several times warned, or his activity and intentions, as well the specific info, sufficiently discussed. I explained him that, for this report most importantly, the info he's bringing to the Dulo clan article is totally unrelated to the topic what ever, or removing sourced considerations by relevant academic scholars (calling their considerations junk), and what's worse, he knows that and admits that his edits are violating the Misplaced Pages principles. I was tolerating his behaviour for some time, trying to discuss as much as possible, hoping for the best, but he's constantly pushing the same judgmental attitude and unconstructive activity. In the last 24 hours we both broke the 3RR rule on the Dulo clan article.--Crovata (talk) 04:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

History merge needed

Fusionem, a relatively inexperienced editor has recently carried out a cut-and-paste move by copying content from Minor characters in Universal Monsters, to List of Universal Monsters characters, and then expanding the new article. Would an admin with a few minutes to spare be able to carry out a history merge on List of Universal Monsters characters to fix the problem cause by the cut-and-paste move, please? --AussieLegend (✉) 13:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Repeated misrepresentation and uncivility by JzG

I wish to raise a complaint about repeated misrepresentation of my postings and uncivility toward me by JzG.

JzG made a posting to which I posed a question - the posting and question can be seen here. JzG then posted "@DrChrissy: You have accused me of racism. Some editors would call that a personal attack and report it. Me, I think it's just cluelessness on your part. I really don't think you know very much about this subject, given the naive questions you are asking." This clearly misrepresents my posting. I posed a question - I did not accuse them of racism. Furthermore, JzG's comment is a personal attack about my knowledge of the subject. JzG also said(same diff) "No need to apologise, anyone can make a mistake, but next time perhaps ask rather than flying off the handle?" This further misrepresents my editing as I had posed a question. It also states I made a mistake when I had not. Here I indicated to JzG that I felt their posting was a misrepresentation and requested them to strike the offending comment. JzG then posted "You accuse me of racism, in two venues,..." I repeated my request that JzG should strike their comment.

Here JzG questioned my competence. I replied here stating this was uncivil and requested them to strike their comments. JzG replied with a posting which included "I pointed out the by now obvious fact that you lack an understanding of the medical literature in general. Again, this is a refusal to strike the offending comment, with a further personal attack.

I reminded JzG on their talk page that I had made two requests to strike comments. Their reply included "Says the person who accused me of racism (in two separate venues)..." and "I believe you lack WP:COMPETENCE in this area." Again, this seriously misrepresents my postings and is also a further personal attack. DrChrissy 15:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban for DrChrissy

If people look at Talk:Acupuncture#Please leave comments below, you will see that many believe that DrChrissy is incompetent in terms of his evaluation of sources. We were considering going to Arbitration Enforcement to request a topic ban relative to CAM articles, but I'd be just as happy to get one from ANI.—Kww(talk) 15:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, do you want a series of diffs here to show you why people think you lack competence in this area? --NeilN 15:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Kww That thread is less than 6 hrs old, and I would not call 5 "many".DrChrissy 15:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@ NeilN Thank you for offering diffs showing why people think I am incompetent. I will politely decline at this time. However, if you have diffs showing that 'I am incompetent, I would be interested to see these.DrChrissy 15:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment Would all other editors considering calling me incompetent please think about this. If I am incompetent, does this mean JzG is allowed to be uncivil to me and misrepresent my postings? I think not.DrChrissy 15:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy i hope your deletion of my comment was inadvertent. restoring it: you actually wrote "Wow! Is this racist?" (and even linked to it) in response to a statement of a well-documented fact about Chinese publications on TCM and acupuncture, and you are here claiming personal attacks against you. oy. Jytdog (talk) 15:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It was totally inadvertent - I got caught up in an edit conflict.DrChrissy 15:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

for pete's sake, you also deleted a comment by olive Jytdog (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The environment on Acupuncture is complex and vitriolic. Topic banning one editor is a simplistic and unfair solution to what has gone on there. I suggest that anyone who wants to make clueful decisions read more than the thread/opinions of the editors who want to remove that editor. By the way if we want to start banning editors because we consider them incompetent, we can sanction a big percentage of WP. Editors have to learn and we all continue to learn here every time we edit. We do that with the help of other editors. (I have made a few cmts on the article but have not edited as far as I can remember this article, and left because of the quality of the environment and discussion there.)(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC))

what a mess. Jytdog (talk) 15:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy makes useful contributions to articles on animal behavior. But when he turns to alternative medicine his histrionic, self-righteous and uncooperative approach is distinctly unhelpful in an area that already is prone to conflict. (Diffs to follow.) A topic ban is overdue. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Short Brigade Harvester Boris: No, his edits on animal behavior also show a competence issue. At coprophagia, he dumped in a whole boatload of text lifted from rabbit-- text that was often off-topic to that article, unnecessary, and covered by a link to rabbit, and which I had to trim. I am not familiar with his other editing, but I would not say he shows competence in editing around animal behavior topics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Per DrChrissy's request. This is the guideline (WP:MEDDATE) you were quoting for these removals: "Look for reviews published in the last five years or so, with newer being better. The range of reviews you examine should be wide enough to catch at least one full review cycle, containing newer reviews written and published in the light of older ones and of more-recent primary studies."

• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Clumsy reading of source (see Talk:Acupuncture#.22Western_Medical_Acupuncture.22)
• Google hits? Really?

--NeilN 15:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on this, and the persistent misunderstanding or misapplication of WP:MEDRS, would the appropriate topic-ban scope to consider be just alt-med or (human) biomedical content in general? An inability to understand and apply the WP:MEDRS sourcing guideline in general (as opposed to only in the alt-med area) should indicate a commensurate scope for a topic ban. Zad68 15:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it's a good time to discuss a topic ban for DrChrissy, based on tendentiousness and an apparent lack of WP:COMPETENCE in this area. DrChrissy has accused me of racism (in two separate venues) for stating that Chinese studies produce only positive results, proposed Dean Radin's Explore journal as a reliable source and then characterised rejection of it as an attempt to mislead others as to the criteria by which we judge sources. I struggle to think of any criteria by which Explore would be considered a relaibel source for an article on a medical subject.

The problem here is that DrChrissy, who seems to me to be a very knowledgeable editor on the subject of wildfowl, has chosen to pile in to an article whose content is considered contentious by some believers in acupuncture, in that it follows the scientific consensus view rather than the philosophical view founded on vitalism and "other ways of knowing". This happens all the time. What DrChrissy has done, though, is to conduct a dumpster dive through the positive literature, drop a whole bunch of low-quality sources on the talk page with no proposed edits based on them, and then accuse all and sundry of bias and malfeasance when the nebulously proposed sources are rejected.

Instead of picking one or two that might be defensible and proposing edits based on them, DrChrissy has adopted exactly the all-or-nothing approach of which he accuses the reality-based editors, and assumes that every source proposed is equally valid and every objection equally invalid - and the mere existence on this list of a paper published in Explore (SNIP: 0.613; SJR: 0.307; Impact Factor: 0.935) is sufficient to refute that claim in its entirety. Guy (Help!) 15:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@JzG Do you not have a single word to say to defend your uncivility toward me?DrChrissy 16:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

(multiple ec) DrChrissy is shopping for a WP:BOOMERANG, by loudly demonstrating his dedicated, enthusiastic, unapologetic, and incorrigible lack of WP:COMPETENCE. I don't know if he's going to get a topic ban from complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) pages from this noticeboard, or if it's going to take an AE filing, but that seems to be the path he's chosen for himself.

Conveniently, DrChrissy has helpfully and proudly summarized his most recent campaign of disruptive IDHT and POINTy (mis)conduct at Talk:Acupuncture, with this edit. Over the course of two or three days, DrChrissy created at least eight new sections on the article talk page; each time, he provided just a URL and a demand for other editors to tell him if the source was "reliable for inclusion in the article", or declaring that a particular link "seems to be reliable for inclusion in the article". Despite multiple pleas from other editors, DrChrissy repeatedly refused to indicate how he proposed using any of the sources, or which statements he might wish to support with them. (You can find the ensuing discussions in the five consecutive threads start with Talk:Acupuncture#Is this a reliable source? and the three consecutive threads starting at Talk:Acupuncture#Reliable source (i). DrChrissy has explicitly admitted that he actually had not read some of the papers and publications that he presented (); I fear he hasn't gotten past the abstract of most or all of them.

While Littleolive oil is correct that we should make allowances for new editors and encourage them to learn about our policies and practices, the patience to educate and tolerate (purportedly unintentional) disruption is not limitless. DrChrissy has demonstrated a stubborn refusal to learn from his experiences so far, and allowing continued disruption seems unlikely to be of benefit to the project.

The whole bit about DrChrissy suggesting that JzG was racist (or was making racist remarks) is part an parcel of a much larger pattern of disruption. This AN/I filing by DrChrissy is just a (poorly-played) attempt at point-scoring to try to punish one of the many editors who have persistently pointed out the problems with his own use of talk pages. DrChrissy's I-was-just-asking-questions excuse is very weak tea, and again he doesn't help his case to draw attention to his own behavior. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:DrChrissy, your orignal comment "Wow! Is this racist?" looks very much like a rhetorical question. I'm not surprised that User Talk:JzG saw it as an accusation. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Based on what I have been able to discern from a rather messy series of disagreements, I'd say that a BOOMERANG is rapidly approaching. A topic ban seems to be a reasonable response to a tendentious editor and abuse of process. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards