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Revision as of 23:43, 28 May 2015 editKateWishing (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers2,203 edits →Ozzie referencing: r← Previous edit Revision as of 01:44, 29 May 2015 edit undoOzzie10aaaa (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers212,537 edits →Ozzie referencingNext edit →
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] (]) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC) ] (]) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
:I believe the #1 and #3 references are fine...in regard to the #2 reference, the statement in question has been supported by two references, have therefore adjusted the text accordingly to the reference in question--] (]) 23:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC) :] I believe the #1 and #3 references are fine...in regard to the #2 reference, the statement in question has been supported by two references, have therefore adjusted the text accordingly to the reference in question (please revert or delete should you believe inadequate)--] (]) 23:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
::The references and our article should convey exactly the same thing in different words. You can't just take a pre-existing sentence and source it to a vaguely related, but distinct statement in a book. None of these sources are saying the same thing as our article, and #2 and #3 are barely similar. These are not isolated examples, but a general pattern in your editing. You should be more careful to only add a source when it supports precisely what our article states. ::The references and our article should convey exactly the same thing in different words. You can't just take a pre-existing sentence and source it to a vaguely related, but distinct statement in a book. None of these sources are saying the same thing as our article, and #2 and #3 are barely similar. These are not isolated examples, but a general pattern in your editing. You should be more careful to only add a source when it supports precisely what our article states.
::You've to reword the #2 material to match the source, but in taking it out of context you produced nonsense. What "changes?" ::You've to reword the #2 material to match the source, but in taking it out of context you produced nonsense. What "changes?"

Revision as of 01:44, 29 May 2015

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Paternal Age

Is there any part of the paternal age effect that belongs in Misplaced Pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anniepema (talk • contribs)

It really needs to be peer-reviewed research which has been published in a reputable scientific journal. See Misplaced Pages:No original research. -Fsotrain 17:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


Large parts of this page are copied/pasted from this link: http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new33-32/graduate.htm

Article claims that at least one X-linked condition is influenced by paternal age; no source cited for this questionable claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.135.176 (talk) 23:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

hemophilia

as far as i can tell, hemophilia is a genetic disorder that's inherited through two recessive genes. How the age of the father affects this, i don't know. How would his age affect a gene he had in his DNA from birth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 (talk) 19:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

de novo mutations increase with advancing paternal age —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.145.79.132 (talk) 03:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Neutral tone

The tone of this article is strange for a medical article. Something like this "If my son or daughter was to ask..." isn't very scientific. Bhny (talk) 20:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Suggestions

This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment.

Definition

MedicineNet.com lists two types of paternal age effects. The two types are autosomalmutations and an indirect paternal age effect from mutations on the X chromosome.

Clinical implications

MedicineNet.com also states that there is no universal definition of advanced paternal age, but does suggest that in the realm of genetic counseling, all men 40 yrs and older at the time of conception meet the criterion.

Pathophysiology

Commenting on the study of 78 Icelandic families, Harry Fisch, MD, clinical professor of urology and reproductive medicine at Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, suggests that now men too have a reference point in decisions of advanced paternal age and risk for genetic defects.The article cites that for women the age of 35 is a benchmark in determining the age of increasing escalation of genetic defect risks and that now men can assume a doubling of the mutation rate every 16 years.
  1. ^ Definition of advanced paternal age.
  2. Autism Risk Across Generations.
  3. Kong A, Frigge ML, Masson G, Besenbacher S, Sulem P, Magnusson G, Gudjonsson SA, Sigurdsson A, Jonasdottir A, Jonasdottir A, Wong WS, Sigurdsson G, Walters GB, Steinberg S, Helgason H, Thorleifsson G, Gudbjartsson DF, Helgason A, Magnusson OT, Thorsteinsdottir U, Stefansson K (2012). "Rate of de novo mutations and the importance of father's age to disease risk". Nature 488 (7412): 471–5. doi:10.1038/nature11396. PMC 3548427. PMID 22914163.
  4. Father's Age Linked to Autism.

Wilson.3308 (talk) 04:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

In the History section of the article, a more developed history of how the Paternal Age Effect was discovered, came about could be included. In the Notable Conditions and Diseases section, many diseases are listed at the bottom without explanation. If enough information is available, more common conditions and diseases should be elaborated on, namely cataracts, heart defects, hemophilia, Klinefelter's Syndrome. Go more in-depth in the Semen & Sperm Abnormalities section, taking more about the actual studies that were preformed and the results they had. Also include aneuploidy as potential abnormality.

I agree that Autism Spectrum Disorder and Bipolar Disorder are missing links to the Wiki pages in the Notable Conditions and Diseases section. Is a free full text available for your citation on the aneuploidy study? And caution, the word performed is not spelled correctly in your edit change. Wilson.3308 (talk) 04:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
I Thank you for the feedback. I've gone and corrected the error. I'm still trying to find the full text for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collins.1128 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

RASopathies such as achondroplasia and Noonan are not mentioned.

Image

This article is currently the subject of an educational assignment.


I would like to add the following image to the article to help portray the meaning and improve upon the page.Wilson.3308 (talk) 02:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


Edit

As per my assignment, I have edited the previous "other conditions" section. It is now labeled (PAE) Disorders, mechanism, and other conditions. This edit lists the disorders collectively known as (PAE) disorders and briefly mentions the "Selfish Selection" mechanism as outlined by Goriely A, and Wilkie AOM (2013). Also, so as to not have the disorders listed twice, I have removed these (PAE) disorders from the long list of other conditions that follow. Wilson.3308 (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Article is poor

Refs need to be improved per WP:MEDRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Remove sections "Paternal mortality" and "Fertility"?

The two subsections on "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" and "Fertility" are not really paternal age effects, in the sense that these two effects relate primarily to the father, not to the offspring. Delete or move to some other more appropriate Wiki article? Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.88 (talk) 09:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Message to Doc James

Good morning Doc James. Today you slimmed down the article considerably by replacing detailed references with summary statements, and by restricting the definition of "paternal age effect" to a health problem rather than a general biological effect (see definition in the first sentence).

I can see the advantage in this new format for a time-pressed medical practitioner (this makes the Wiki-page a quick-reference source), but it is now less useful for the researcher trying to enter this increasingly active field of research. And there is nearly a complete lack of quantification - is the risk 1 percent? 40 percent? Who knows. The disappointed reader needs to return to PubMed, which undermines the purpose of Misplaced Pages, methinks.

I am not suggesting you revert things now, but please do not discourage future editors from adding some more flesh on the bones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 11:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

We need to use recent secondary sources. Not masses of 30 year old primary sources. This article has huges issues with its references. It needs to be updated per WP:MEDRS.
Health effects are what people care about. General biological effects may or may not be mechanisms of the resulting health effects Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I too care about health effects. But the field is not yet sufficiently advanced to be sure on most of these health effects. So far, only the biology is secure. The health effects must await further research. So it is imbalanced to make this article all about medicine, and put biology in the closet. Wait another 5 years and then you may be right, but it is too early now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
wikipedia content should be based on the most recent secondary sources we can find. you need a very good reason to use very old primary sources. Jytdog (talk) 12:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The mechanism per WP:MEDMOS goes lower in the article and gets seperated from health effects as they are not. Yes we all agree this area has a poor amount of research thus the article should likely be shorter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Right - conclusions of research published in primary sources, that do not get picked up in reviews, are unlikely to be worth discussing in WP. Jytdog (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I trimmed primary and very dated references--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I reverted Ozzie10aaaa's changes because in several cases he removed dated references (such as a 2003 review) while leaving the associated claim, now unreferenced. If all references are removed, the claim should also be removed. If not, a 2003 review is better than no reference at all. KateWishing (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Doc James and Ozzie:

I confess I am curious how on earth you manage to make large numbers of changes within minutes. Do you have a team working for you?
Secondly, although I am not entirely happy with the strong medical vs biological emphasis, I think the article overall is better now - can you upgrade its rating?
And I think we can now remove the warning that the references are poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Ozzie referencing

I am concerned by Ozzie10aaaa's method of adding references, which seems to involve searching related words on Google Books. Often, the results are only vaguely related to the article text. Here are examples from his recent edits, with unsupported text bolded:

Article text Source text Source link
"Such effects can relate to miscarriage risk, birthweight, congenital disorders and health-related conditions including mortality and longevity, or risk of psychological outcomes." " associated with chromosomal aberrations, low birth weight, and congenital malformations schizophrenia"
"Some classify the paternal age effect as one of two different types. One effect is directly related to advanced paternal age and autosomal mutations in the offspring. The other effect is an indirect effect in relation to mutations on the X chromosome which are passed to daughters who are then at risk for having sons with X-linked diseases" "The changes will not be quite as large for autosomal-dominant rare conditions with a paternal age effect as for numeric chromosome aberrations, the paternal age effect on dominant and X-linked mutation rates being smaller than the effect of maternal age age on incidence of numeric chromosomal anomalies."
"Later age at parenthood is associated with a more stable family environment, higher socio-economic position, higher income and better living conditions, as well as better parenting practices, but it is more or less uncertain whether these entities are effects of advanced parental age, are contributors to advanced parental age, or common effects of a certain state such as personality type." "Research has demonstrated an inverse relationship between maternal age and child maltreatment. Youthful parenting is intertwined with other factors. For example, less positive parental nurturing and discipline were seen in mothers who were younger, who had more than one child living at home, who were single, who had a lower level of educational attainment."

KateWishing (talk) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Doc James I believe the #1 and #3 references are fine...in regard to the #2 reference, the statement in question has been supported by two references, have therefore adjusted the text accordingly to the reference in question (please revert or delete should you believe inadequate)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The references and our article should convey exactly the same thing in different words. You can't just take a pre-existing sentence and source it to a vaguely related, but distinct statement in a book. None of these sources are saying the same thing as our article, and #2 and #3 are barely similar. These are not isolated examples, but a general pattern in your editing. You should be more careful to only add a source when it supports precisely what our article states.
You've attempted to reword the #2 material to match the source, but in taking it out of context you produced nonsense. What "changes?"
I'm sorry if I am being harsh. KateWishing (talk) 23:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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