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October 2005 – July 15 2006 20 July 2006 – 27 July 2006: Criticism, credentials

Undiscussed removal of NPOV tag

I have reverted the undiscussed removal of the NPOV tag. Such a removal should be done only after discussion and as a consensus decision. Tags of this type are jealously guarded. They aren't just a part of the article, that can be removed by one editor acting alone.

There are still many areas that are not consensus viewpoints.

1. The article has a disproportionately large amount of critical material, simply by volume, making it apparent to any new reader the POV of many of the editors. Some of that material is editorializing that extrapolates from facts into OR, instead of simply presenting the facts and letting readers go to the references and the links and decide for themselves. Even the references contain large quotes. I'm especially thinking of ref. 26 (King Bio), where the text in the article and the text in the reference duplicate some ideas. The idea should be summarized very briefly in the article, and the reference should show the citation and provide a link.
2. There is still the issue of the relevance of board certification to his activities as a quackbuster (a term he rejects and dislikes). Its relevance should be seen in the light of the fact that far less than half of MDs were board certified back in 1967, and it never affected his career as a psychiatrist. That matter is still being hotly debated here at this very moment, and thus the removal of the NPOV tag is very inappropriate. The discussion of the relevance of board certification hasn't really even begun to discuss its relevance to his work with Quackwatch and anti-quackery activism, but it has improperly been applied to it. The issue should properly be focused on its relevance to his work as a practicing psychiatrist, which is one matter, which doesn't apply to his anti-quackery activities - another matter entirely. He is being held to a standard for one thing that doesn't apply to the other. Others who aren't even MDs are also experts in healthcare consumer protection and anti-quackery activities. They aren't MDs or board certified. His qualifications for that type of activity wouldn't even be addressed by board certification!
3. To muddy the waters even more, that he even "uses" his MD credentials is often mentioned, as if that were improper. The guy is an MD, and will always be an MD. It is not improper under any condition for him to use MD after his name. That is not improper. It helps to identify him. It may or may not say something about whether or not he is qualified for any given activity. It all depends on what that activity is. Merely being an MD (even with a board certification) does not qualify one for his activities. While it helps, those qualifications are gained through experience, research, investigation, and plenty of help from other experts in various fields. There is no degree or board certification that covers those qualifications. (Maybe universities should start a degree program leading to the degree of CP.D. (Docter of Consumer Protection....;-) Course work should start with critical thinking, logic, statistics, fundamentals of EBM, ethics, consumer protection law, etc.)

Those are just a few things that come to mind. They are not minor points of contention. Therefore, until they are settled, the NPOV tag should remain. -- Fyslee 20:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the NPOV tag because of this comment above. It didn't look "jealously guarded" and I didn't see any rationale for it. But now you've listed it. As for establishing the credibility (or lack thereof) of someone who makes it their professional business to attack the credibility of others, it is highly relevant and not POV to focus on it. These are not minor or insignificant. Stbalbach 02:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stbalbach makes a valid point which I have tried to make for a while. " As for establishing the credibility (or lack thereof) of someone who makes it their professional business to attack the credibility of others, it is highly relevant and not POV to focus on it. These are not minor or insignificant. " I fully agree that it is not POV, however each time an item is not favorable to the subject of the article it is critizised by a group of editors as POV. Thanks Stbalbach. NATTO 04:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Barrett's qualifications in alternative and complementary medicine

The question about his qualifications in alternative and complementary medicine has been asked. From reading his C.V and looking at his web sites, he does have a medical degree ( M.D. ), was qualified and licenced ( until 1993 ) as a psychiatrist. I have not seen any formal training or qualifications in any alternative or complementary modality. He does not appear to have any training in homeopathy, accupuncture, herbal therapy or any other for that matter. He does not appear to have practiced any of the alternative modalities as a stand alone modality or included any of them in his practice as a psychiatrist. It is difficult to claim expertise in a field when you have no formal training in it or any clinical experience. He could claim expertise in psychiatry but even there, he was never Board certified...

Of course I may have missed relevant information, if any is posted on his web sites. If anyone has evidence that he has any formal training in any alternative or complementary medicine, please post it on the talk page. NATTO 02:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Training in a specific medical area is not necessary to read and critique studies and information on the subject. In fact, I doubt that any doctor would go out of her way to spend money and time training in a field she believes is quackery. That does not mean that she/he is not qualified to discuss it.jawesq 02:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

NATTO, I agree with jawesq. You are implying that one can only be an expert in the area of training. Many scientist switch fields and can be world class in a new field. The point of a science degree is you learn the scitentific method and you learn to think critically. As far as I am concerned any biologist could look at the data available for the effectiveness of alternative medicine and determine if the conclusions are valid. It seems that Barrret's expertise comes from being familiar with the claims of alternative medicine. He is in a position to judge these claims and interpret how they compare with similar therapies in the medical field. David D. (Talk) 03:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That is not what I implied. I simply meant that to be an expert you need to have expert knowledge in a field, knowledge that is way above the average person. You can get that knowledge through formal training, relevant practical experience either in a clinical or research setting, ect.... Otherwise anyone could claim to be an expert in anything they wish... Dr. Barrett does not have any formal training in alternative medicine nor any practical, clinical experience that I could find. You do not become an expert just by reading " stuff ", relevant real life experience is relevant. As far as science is concerned, science is a tool with it's limitation and is not the ultimate solution to everything. There is more to health than just science. He trained as a psychatrist and could claim expertise in that field, however the vast majority of his peers being Board certified makes it difficult for him today to have high credibility in that field since he failed the Board exam. NATTO 04:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what the offered testimony is. jawesq 13:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Different tack re:Board certification

Here is the current version.

• Barrett has appeared in court as a medical expert. Barrett failed one part of his medical board certification exams in 1967 and never retook them; thus Barrett was never board certified. According to the ABMS about 81% of physicians were Board certified when Barrett retired in 1993. (pdf).

The version I had suggested above:

• Critics cite that Barrett failed part of his medical board certification exams in 1967 and never retook them (Barrett et al 2006) as evidence that he cannot claim to be a medical expert.

First, the top version fails POV and WP:OR. You start with a statement and follow with two facts. The fact he failed the board exam is relevent. You have then used research to track down the 81% stat when he retired. You have then placed these two facts together to paint a picture with respect to the first comment.

You seem to be under the impression I am against the inclusion of the 81%. I am not. I am against the current form in which it is written. As written it is clearly the authors opinion. You need to find a quote for this connection to be made without failing POV and WP:OR. The quote must satisfy the criteria laid out in WP:RS.

Personally i don't see how the version i propose waters down this statement at all, despite the fact there is no inclusion of the 81%. Lets use this section to discuss the content. We need to find a compromise that is acceptable to all editors not just now but in the future too. It is the only way to maintain a stable artcile. David D. (Talk) 02:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest a review of expert witness. "An expert witness is a witness, who by virtue of education, profession, publication or experience, is believed to have special knowledge of his subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon his opinion."jawesq 03:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Those links are just for reference now re: the comment below. I'm not sure what you mean by this expert witness comment, could you expand on that thought? David D. (Talk) 03:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Barrett's credibility as an expert witness was only questioned in terms of his expertise in matters of law and in matters of FDA regulation. His testimony was questioned because of his direct interest in the outcome of one case in which he testified. His credibility as a medical expert has not, to my knowledge, been successfully challenged. Jokestress 03:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. So those that want to include this will have to find a better reference otherwise we just cut it out. David D. (Talk) 03:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not see how Barrett could possibly hold himself out as a legal expert. I don't know about his expertise in (what context of) FDA regulation. jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is getting off topic for this section. i have sectioned off the legal discussion below. Can we focus on how the board certification issue will be written in the main article? At present we need to find a reference where his medical expertise has been questioned. If we want to use the 81% data and his failed board exams we need that reference to use that data as an argument for him not being an expert witness. Is there anything like that available? I see you have offered some text from the http://www.healthfreedomlaw.com/ web site but I see no mention of the 81%. Are there other sources that reference it?

I do not think this website should be cited as a reference for Barrett's medical expertise, and I did not suggest that it be used. I dont believe his failing psychiatry boards has anything to do with his qualifications as an MD in areas that are unrelated to psychiatry. jawesq 16:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

So what is the sentence above trying to say with respect to his failure of the board exam and his expertise? It would be geat if there is a documented quote from one of his critics to make this point unambiguous. David D. (Talk) 16:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Another issue is that i am not sure if the healthfreedomlaw web page will be acceptable as a reliable source. You might want to get a second opinion from other wikipedians who are more familiar with where the lines are drawn. Or better yet courst transcripts. (David D. (Talk) 15:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I already stated that this website is not appropriate (reliable) as a reference here (see above). I added it purely for discussion puposes. Again, I do not think that failing his boards is at all relevant to his medical expertise relating to non-psychiatric testimony.jawesq 18:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I apologise, i missed that. But aren't his critic citing the boards as a critique. At least that is what is currently in the article. Are they any statements in the court transcripts that can be used? Or should we just remove this point if no appropriate source is available? David D. (Talk) 18:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are. I don't think it is a valid argument, unless Barrett proposes to testify as an expert on psychiatry, which that lawyer claimed he did. "This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed 'expert testimony' as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such." Then it would be relevant. Now there are entirely too many indents, so let's start a new topic.jawesq 18:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• Below is a quote from lawyer Carlos Negrete where he is openly critical of Barrett's qualifications as an expert in his field or in the legal field:

" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training.

Linus Pauling? Is Barrett now an expert in chemistry? Barrett should also not hold himself out as a legal expert. Period. This is worth discussing in the article, because holding himself out as a legal expert would be itself quackery (and quickly nixed by any judge).jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• Linus Pauling is a nobel price winner in chemistry. And yes a judge did nix the " legal expert " issue. A California Superior Court judge. NATTO 04:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am well familiar with who Linus Pauling is. I am shocked that Barrett would attempt to comment on him. That takes gall. That was my point.jawesq 05:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Why in your opinion does it take gall to comment on Linus Pauling? How can you claim that Pauling is an expert on Vit C physiology and heath issues but then claim Barrett cannot have opinion on homeopathic medicine? This seems like an example of double standards? David D. (Talk) 16:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think of Pauling as a chemist. I assumed Barrett was referencing to that. I wasn't even aware of Pauling's promotion of Vit. C. jawesq 16:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Pauling was interested in many different things. At the end of his career he was a huge proponent for high doses of vit C to cure many aliments, including cancer. i assume that was the body of work that Barrett was reffering to when he was critical of Pauling. David D. (Talk) 16:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• David D. If I have to choose between the advice of a top scientist, twice winner of the Nobel price and the advice of a psychiatrist who failed his Board certification... Let me think ?....NATTO 18:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Depends. Kary Mullis won a Nobel prize. Do you agree with his postion on HIV? David D. (Talk) 18:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• I am not informed enough at this point about the positions of Kary Mullis to agree or disagree with his position on HIV however I know enough about Vit-C as a safe and effective anti-oxidant and it's many benefits again oxidative stress and free radical damage to agree with Linus Pauling about the health benefits of Vit-C. NATTO 21:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • But many don't agree, especially with regard to the huge doses that he specified. Crededitals are great but that is not the whole story. This is why it is wrong to focus on one aspect of someones training. Anyone can get a Ph.D. if they want it (or M.D.). It is definitely a indicator of someone who has the potential to be well informed, and possibly be an expert, but it is not the whole story. The reverse argument can also be made. This is my only reason not to allow the article to get bogged down in critiquing minor details but look at the whole picture.

For your reference, Mullis does not agree that HIV is the cause of AIDS. He along with Peter Duesberg, a Berkeley professor and accomplished scientist, are quite vocal on this subject.

We're getting off topic again. How can we correct the sentence above to something that you are happy with. Do you have a source or quote that will allow the 81% to not be characterised as original reasearch? David D. (Talk) 21:40, 28 July 2006

(UTC)

• David D. Please see below for a quote from lawyer Carlos Negrete:

" For years, Barrett has touted himself as a “medical expert” on “quackery” in healthcare and has assisted in dozens of court cases as an expert. Also, Barrett has testified that was called upon by the FDA, FTC and other governmental agencies for his purported expertise. He was the subject of many magazine interviews, including Time Magazine and featured on television interviews on ABC’s 20/20, NBC’s Today Show and PBS. He has gained media fame by his outspoken vocal disgust and impatience over natural or non-medical healthcare, including his criticisms of two time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling.... At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed “expert testimony” as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases as such. Also, Barrett had said that he was a “legal expert” even though he had no formal legal training. The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." The issue of Board certification is a key issue of his criticism of Dr. Barrett. The percentage of Board certified M.D. in 1993 is relevant as related information in the same way that other editors have grafted text into paragraphs that were not quoted in the original source. For example the phrase : Judges have noted that his position as a public figure has weakened his ability to defend himself, since the plaintiff in such libel cases is required to show "actual malice," per the precedent in New York Times v. Sullivan, which states, "Because of the extremely high burden on the plaintiff, and the difficulty in proving essentially what is inside a person's head, such cases rarely, if ever prevail against public figures." It is in a totally unrelated case to Dr. Barrett but I do not havea problem because it offers valid information on the issue. NATTO 00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Mullis was used as an example. And I would daresay most scientists DO believe that HIV causes AIDS, so it seems an apt example. I won't chime in on David's question, since I am unfamiliar with what you all are talking about.jawesq 00:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• I realized it was just an example that is why I said I could not either agree or disagree because I did not have enough information. It is also not directly related to the article. As for Vit-C ,there are also many who agree with Linus Pauling and there is also good research to support his position. I also know numerous qualified M.D. who agrees, including cardiologists and oncologists. Dr. Thomas Levy has written a book with numerous scientific references on the use of high dose IV-C.Certainly to include Linus Pauling on a list of people that are not recommendable because you do not agree with the beneficial effects of IV-C is at the very least a one sided approach. In any case that is not the topic of the article. NATTO 00:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

break off the legal stuff

The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett also had to concede his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA)." NATTO 04:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I see the problem with his ties to the AMA, since the AMA is a lobbying group for medical doctors.jawesq 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. NATTO 04:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

His many lawsuits looks like an abuse of process. jawesq 05:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Court case citations

If anyone cites a court case, please take the time to look up how to do it. I have observed many citations in this article are not at all the way court cases should be cited. Here is an example of an improperly cited memorandum:

STEPHEN J. BARRETT, M.D., Plaittiff - Appellant, v. CARLOS F. NEGRETE; et at., Defendants - Appellees.] No. 04-55193 D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML; No. 03-56663 D.C. No. CY -02-0221 O-JML. Filed Memorandum filed March 14, 2005.jawesq 03:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

If you supply the correct citation for that memorandum here, I'll put it in, or you can correct it yourself if you prefer. Jokestress 03:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is one example. Here is a reference for citing court cases, or other legal documents:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/citation/

The example above appears to be a memorandum, not a court case. And from the way it is cited above, I would not know how to report it. It would take me some time to sort it out, since I do not have much experience citing to memorandums. However, this is how I would probably do it, without searching for more information:

Barrett v. Negrete, et at (Mem. No. 04-55193 D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML; No. 03-56663 D.C.; No. CY -02-0221 O-JML, March 14, 2005)

I don't guarantee this is accurate, but I think it was better than before. I may look this up but not tonight!

Court cases are a bit easier...
An example:

Edmond v. Goldsmith, 183 F.3d 659, 660 (7th Cir. 1999), aff'd, 531 U.S. 31 (2000).

First names, titles are not used.
F.3d is the reporter, 183 is the volume, and 659 is the first page the case appears in the reporter, and 660 would be the 'pinpoint' or page the reference is found on.
Then '7th Cir.' is the 7th Circuit (federal) court. and 1999 is, of course the year.
This case ruling was affirmed in a 2000 US Supreme Court case. (2000) indicates US SUpreme Court.jawesq 05:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I will tackle some of this, but not tonight. I could use some brush-up on legal citations. jawesq 05:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting reading

From Negrete's website (Law offices of Negrete) http://www.healthfreedomlaw.com/

King Bio, like many other homeopathic and supplement companies targeted by NCAHF in similar lawsuits, refused to capitulate to any sort of settlement with Barrett and NCAHF. Instead, Dr. King decided to take the lead and defend his own integrity and that of his company by deciding to "have his day in court" and taking the case to trail.

The trial took place on October, 2001 in Los Angeles, California. The Law Offices of Carlos F. Negrete and Carlos F. Negrete provided support and assistance for the trial.

Under cross-examination of NCAHF’s witnesses at the trial, it was revealed that NCAHF had never tested any of the Dr. King products or even conducted any sort of scientific study. Something which Barrett and NCAHF have steadfastly argued should be performed by all supplement manufacturers and alternative therapists if they are to be recognized by the likes of NCAHF and Barrett.

After NCAHF presented its case with little or no real evidence, Dr. King’s attorneys requested that the court end the case and rule in its favor. The trial court sided with Dr. King and awarded a judgment in favor of King Bio and Dr. King. NCAHF’s case was so weak and lacking of evidence that Dr. King and King Bio did not even have to present it full case in defense before the judge ruled.

Despite the overwhelming defeat at trial, NCAHF decided to challenge the judge’s decision and filed an appeal before the Court of Appeal in California.

During the appeal process, NCAHF’s attorney, Morse Mehrban, was joined by another purported "consumer watchdog" attorney who fights against alternative therapies and supplements, Mark Boling, on behalf of a little known organization called Consumer Justice Center ("CJC"). CJC filed a "friend of the court brief" in support of NCAHF’s appeal.

NCAHF and CJC argued that the trial court was wrong and that existing law should be changed to allow plaintiffs, such as NCAHF, to bring lawsuits with little or no evidence against a targeted company and, thereafter, force the targeted company to defend itself on the basis of an accusation alone. The Court of appeal was not persuaded that such a change in law was appropriate or logical.

The Law Offices of Carlos F. Negrete represented Dr. King and King Bio in the appeal and argued that the trial court correctly found in favor of Dr. King and King Bio and that it was not proper under California law or the United States Constitution that a plaintiff, such as NCAHF, could irresponsibly file a lawsuit without any evidence against a product and its manufacturer. Negrete argued that it would be irresponsible and against free enterprise to allow an individual to file a lawsuit without any evidence of wrongdoing with just a couple of hundred dollars in a filing fee, thereby subjecting a victim defendant to spend as much as hundreds of thousands of dollars in defense costs. All because someone could point their finger at what they did not understand or believe in.

In its Opinion, the Court of Appeals agreed with King and Negrete. Specifically, the Court of Appeals found that NCAHF "presented no evidence that King Bio’s products were not safe and effective, relying instead on a general attack on homeopathy, made by witnesses who had no knowledge of, or experience with, King Bio’s products, and who were found to be biased and unworthy of credibility"

And, in an more remarkable validation, the Court of Appeals ordered that their Opinion be "published" as a precedent setting case in the official reports of the State of California. This is the first opinion of its kind as to homeopathy and the issues raised during the appeal. It will undoubtedly be discussed by many legal scholars and cited in cases to follow in the future.

jawesq 05:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear jawesq. It is definitely interesting and I agree with your other comment about abuse of process. Dr. King did not bow to legal intimidation and the judge, not only found in his favor but was clearly critical of Barrett and co. questioning his credibility and expertise. All the above is well documented and proven with reliable source. I also agree that letting people believe that you have legal expertise when you are not really qualified is highly questionable, especially if you are in the business of judging others and their use of alternative health related modalities. As I mentioned earlier Dr. Barrett has very little training in law and no formal qualifications. He has no formal training and no formal qualification in any of the health modalities he is highly critical of, presenting only one side of the story to his readers, in the guise of providing quality information. He as no relevant practical experience in any of the health modalities he is critical of and while formally trained as a psychiatrist, he failed the Board certification. All the while he appointed himself a medical and legal expert on quackery, testyfing in court on behalf of the NCAHF or providing advice to lawyers taking legal action againsts practitioners and companies the NCAHF considered fraudulent and quacks. The King Bio case is a very good example. NATTO 18:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think his credentials need to be mentioned, since they are the basis of his 'business'. jawesq 19:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. In this case it is more a lack of credentials. If a person choose an activity where he or she is going to be highly critical of numerous health professionals and the modalities they practice, that person should have a very good grasp of these modalities and be highly credible. It is not enough to post negative information supporting a point of view while withholding positive or supportive information, while claiming as your mission to provide accurate and quality information. I do not doubt that there is some cases of fraud in any profession but that is not a reason to as they say, throw the baby with the water.NATTO 21:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

With so many lawsuits either lost or pending appeal, Dr. Barrett must have a hefty legal bill. I have not seen any information on his web sites regarding the ongoing legal costs involved and how the money is obtained. NATTO 01:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The same Negrete quotation has now been cited four times this week on this talk page. Rather than a fifth rehashing of the same website text, let's figure out what editors think needs to be put in the article that isn't there. No one is disputing that challenges to Barrett's credentials should be included. However, about 90% of the text attacking Barrett's credentials comes from Bolen and Negrete websites, who have both been involved in litigation with Barrett. While Negrete's summation is useful, we need to rely on published court decisions as primary texts, not his analysis/interpretation. It's clear when going back to the original court papers that he has in places embellished or spun the original text to make his point. And yes, I know Barrett does the same thing. Again, that's why these websites are not as reliable or useful as published legal decisions in getting the article to conform to NPOV.

Well, the discussion page is very long, and I have also said repeatedly that this does not meet a reliability standard as a reference (unless it is an opinion only). jawesq 01:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I am also wondering if the earlier decision to present the litigation chronologically would be better explained to casual readers if each key figure was discussed in a section: Clark, Bolen, Negrete, Koren, Fonorow, etc. Thoughts? Jokestress 01:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends on how many parties there are. I'd say there are probably too many to do this. However, it is long and rambling as it is, so something should be done.jawesq 01:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with jawesq about the need for good sources, especially court documents. In the Negrete statement, the court documents available do support the basis for his comments, even if he has put a spin on it. jawesq above commentary on the King Bio case is well structured and to the point.

While Bolen and Negrete are well known to be critical of Dr. Barrett and the NCAHF, there are others as well. Please see this letter to the president of Loma Linda University by Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, MD . Dr. Whitaker is asking Dr. Lyn Behrens: " Does it concern you that the NCAHF is housed on the Loma Linda campus and by implication, this clandestine and highly defamatory practice is condoned by the University? " And this other link showing that the NCAHF's status in California has been suspended. Or this text reproduced from Alternative Medicine Digest: Whats Eating Stephen Barrett ? A cursory search shows many web sites with critical comments about the NCAHF and Dr. Barrett. The article on Stephen Barrett, as it stand, is not ideal but does provide verifiable information regarding Dr. Barrett. His achievements, publications and activities are well listed, occupying the top 50% of the article. The section on litigation is long because he or his alter ego , the NCAHF, has initiated so many lawsuits, some still ongoing ( as per the stated mission of Quackwatch ). The reference section is long because of the need to list every reference in details instead of just placing a link in the body of the text. Jokestress explained the need for this previously. Finally a lot of discussion has revolved around the relevance of the percentage of Board certified M.D.s in relationship to Dr. Barrett's failure of the Board exam and failure to re-try to certify between 1967-1993. NATTO 03:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

1. The Whitaker letter is not a reliable source. If it's been published somewhere besides the site of a Barrett legal opponent (Fonorow), like a newspaper or magazine, we can include it. If that letter led to action by the University that was written about in a newspaper or magazine, we can include that information. Otherwise, this is just part of a long list of Google search results. That's not going to cut it in terms of reliable sources per WP:BLP.
2. The NCAHF status in California is mentioned in the article on that entity.
3. Alternative Medicine Digest is barely a reliable source, but that article isn't really much more than an editorial of sorts with very little, if any, new information.

I don't think anyone is disputing that many people have been critical of Barrett. What we're lacking are reliable sources with new information or specific criticisms. Jokestress 04:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to the Freedom of Health Foundation where Dr. Whitaker comments on this very same issue again. That site is to Dr. Whitaker what Quackwatch is to Dr. Barrett. As perWP:RS: " An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group expressed a certain opinion is a fact (that is, it is true that the person expressed the opinion) and it may be included in Misplaced Pages if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group expressed the opinion."NATTO 07:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article on the Freedom of Health Foundation refers at the bottom to Phillips Health, LLC., which has been renamed Healthy Directions, LLC. in 4/4/2005. This is their web site NATTO 08:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

In order to keep this discussion from diverging into all these ancillary issues, how about if we discuss criticism of NCAHF on Talk:The National Council Against Health Fraud? Let's keep this limited to criticism of Barrett himself. That way editors can follow what's going on here regarding Barrett specifically. Much of the stuff above is either about NCAHF or Jarvis. Jokestress 09:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

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