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Hardpoints

Currently the article suggest 13 hardpoints (5 fuselage and 4 on each wing), however this shows 15 (5 fuselage plus 5 on each wing - 2 inside drop tank, 2 outside it) although 2 of them are rarely used.Z07x10 (talk) 18:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC) Z07x10 (talk) 13:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The article doesn't suggest anything, the information in the article about 13 hardpoints is based on a reliable secondary source, whereas your claim about there being 15 hardpoints is original research, since it's your personal interpretation of a picture you've found on Flickr, with no reliable sources of any kind to back it up. And it's very much your own personal interpretation of the picture, because those protrusions can be just about anything, from additions to improve airflow to chaff dispensers... Thomas.W 17:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Is there one single reliable written source that clearly states that the aircraft has 15 hardpoints? If so, go ahead and use it. It seems rather amazing that you might be the only person to have discovered this new "fact". It sounds like it would be quite an attractive design feature that the manufacturers would want to advertise very enthusiastically. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

RCS 1/4 that of Rafale

User:Fnlayson believes that is a reliable source. Having never heard of the publication or writer before as experts on aviation topics I disagree. The statement relied upon on the 6th page states "According to some estimates the Rafale may appear 4 times bigger on the radar compared to the Eurofighter" without providing any references for this weasel-worded statement. I do not believe that such a statement can be relied upon for inclusion on this page. Mztourist (talk) 03:14, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

No, I did not quite say or indicate that. I added a {{vs}} (verify source) tag right after that reference so others can determine if the publication is reliable. The wording in this article clearly says it is a estimate (most RCS number generally are). I also tagged the previous sentence about the Eurofighter have an RCS better than RAF requirements. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Given that actual experimental data on the RCS of modern aircraft is probably one of the most classified things about them, you can regard ALL public discussion on relative RCS as mere opinion. Some opinions are worth more than others, sure, but it really isn't going to be possible to verify any of the figures anyway - it certainly wouldn't be out of place, in my opinion, to state something on the wiki along the lines of: "Some sources claim that the RCS of the Typhoon could be as little as 1/4 of that of the Rafale." Though without any data on the Rafale either, that hardly means anything by itself anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.244.252 (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Composites are more radar absorbent that metal and the Typhoon has a much lower metal content on its surface (higher composite. Rafale is 70% composite, Typhoon is 85% composite. I think that adds some weight to the argument to keep this note.http://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-fully-optimized-airframe/ Also of note is the recessed BVRAAM carriage on the Typhoon, whereas the Rafale carries it's missiles on pylons, which definitely increases frontal RCS. Other features of note - the Rafale has an external IFR probe and the MWS is stuck on a plank on the tail, which definitely isn't stealthy.http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/ddm-ng_datasheet-1432732678.pdf The Typhoon's wings also have a higher sweep angle and both the tail height and canard-span are smaller. I think the evidence detailing composite percentage in surface area for the two aircraft supports the original statement, which is why I added it but Mztourist deleted it.Z07x10 (talk) 13:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You need to provide WP:RS rather than two statements as to composite percentages linked by your own OR Mztourist (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Heh, at least the sources I used are neutral. You linked a Rafale fan site as evidence. I linked an Indian study and information regarding composite percentage from both Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault. As regards your source, this statement is just plain wrong - "The vents for Eurofighter here offer the best technology for speed, without any consideration for any radar signature reduction" (http://www.portail-aviation.com/2013/11/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon2_11.html) - as evidenced here - http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Feurofighter.airpower.at%2Ffaq.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8 - "Signature-absorbing coating on the canards. The same coating is also found extensively on the air inlet, at the wing edges and on the vertical tail."Z07x10 (talk) 12:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Z07x10 look who made the edits. They were made by IP 86.69.13.240, not me, I don't sock. Stop adding back your OR on composite percentages as proof of the Typhoon's stealthiness. I am very tired of your OR such as the claim of 15 hardpoints above or your tedious change to the Typhoon's top speed. Mztourist (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Desist immediately, composites having reduced radar reflection compared to metals is not original research, it's a scientific fact supported by multiple sources:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/navy-experimenting-with-composite-superstructure-for-warships/articleshow/47056945.cms

http://www.ramboats.com/why-ram.html

http://nano.iphy.ac.cn/N04/papers/NO4_papers%20all%20pdf/HJ_Gao.0710.pdf

http://www.deccanherald.com/pages.php?id=473934

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21038610/Composite-Materials#scribd

Hell, even wikipedia itself supports this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Stealth_technologyZ07x10 (talk) 12:23, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

All I have stated is that Typhoon RCS is reduced by extensive used of composites on its surface, as stated on Eurofighter.com and then added percentages for composite usage as shown on Eurofighter.com and Dassault.http://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-fully-optimized-airframe/

This is 100% accurate and indisputable. That composites lower RCS relative to metals is supported by multiple sources and the percentage composite usage for each aircraft is confirmed by their respective manufacturers. This is wikipedia bread and butter source usage, not WP:OR.Z07x10 (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

No, you desist immediately. You are using OR yet again. You have produced two different composite percentages for Typhoon and Rafale and then linked them by saying because Typhoon has more composites it must therefore have a lower RCS, that linkage is your OR and so not acceptable. You must present a WP:RS that states that because the Typhoon has a higher % of composites than the Rafale that means that it has a lower RCS. It may be scientific fact that composites have lower RCS than metals, but this is by no means decisive. Who's to say that where the composites are used on each aircraft and their impact on RCS? Who knows how much of an impact the composites have on RCS as opposed to shielded air intakes or facetting?

How is it OR if I'm using sources and simply relaying what they say? I haven't stated that the Typhoon must have a lower RCS than the Rafale because it has a higher composite percentage, I've simply stated that composites helped reduce its RCS and given percentages for both aircraft. Entirely factual. You obviously don't understand what OR is. You are saying I've said things which I haven't. This is what I added in bold, where is the OR? According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements; some sources have estimated the Rafale's radar return to be four times greater than the Eurofighter's return. The Typhoon's radar return is reduced thanks in part to its surface area being 85% composite, while the Rafale surface area is 70% composite. Where is the OR in what I added? Source supports everything I added before it and source supports everything after it. You've imagined I've said something which I haven't. User:Fnlayson supported my edits. Wrt RAM coating and engine shielding, both aircraft have this, if you did a little research you'd realise this. The links already there support this in fact.Z07x10 (talk) 13:27, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The OR is the link you make between the different % of composites in Typhoon compared to Rafale and your conclusion that therefore Typhoon has a lower RCS. That is OR. You are already on 3RR on this edit. I note that in your last reversion you say you agreed the wording with User:Fnlayson, where is that agreement? To spell this out in further detail for you, saying "Typhoon's surface area is 85% composite, while the Rafale surface area is 70% composite" is factual (if we accept primary sources) and not OR, but your words "Typhoon's radar return is reduced thanks in part..." is your OR and not acceptable.Mztourist (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Nope, I did not make this link, you imagined it. This is what I added in bold, where is the OR? According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements; some sources have estimated the Rafale's radar return to be four times greater than the Eurofighter's return. The Typhoon's radar return is reduced thanks in part to its surface area being 85% composite, while the Rafale surface area is 70% composite. Where is the OR in what I added? Source supports everything I added before it and source supports everything after it. You've imagined I've said something which I haven't. User:Fnlayson agreed my edits and made only minor text/link trim adjustments.Z07x10 (talk) 13:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Mztourist - You have also reverted more than 3 times using sock puppet accounts. Home PC, work PC, lap-top, mobile device, proxy servers, all unsigned edits. I've had the same problem with you before.Z07x10 (talk) 13:49, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I have deliberately avoided 3RRing here, unlike you. Your claims that I have socked and that you've had the same problem with me before are preposterous. I'm reporting you for 3RR/edit warring Mztourist (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The history shows you 3RR'd first:

The history also show that you 3RR'd first: 1. (cur | prev) 12:14, 4 June 2015‎ Mztourist (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (167,591 bytes) (-6)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features) (undo | thank) 2. (cur | prev) 12:13, 4 June 2015‎ Mztourist (talk | contribs)‎ . . (167,597 bytes) (-252)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features: Z07x10 stop blaming me for edits I didn't do and stop adding your OR!) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 12:10, 4 June 2015‎ Z07x10 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (167,849 bytes) (+144)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features: Undone further bad faith non-agreed changes of Mzourist.Z07x10 (talk) 14:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)) (undo) 3. (cur | prev) 12:04, 4 June 2015‎ Mztourist (talk | contribs)‎ . . (167,705 bytes) (-258)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features: restored tag and removed OR; Z07x10 I didn't make and bad faith changes IP 86.69.13.240 did make changes while you keep trying to put in your OR, stop it!) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 11:58, 4 June 2015‎ Z07x10 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (167,963 bytes) (+51)‎ . . (Removed bad faith changes of Mzourist - biased source with grossly inaccurate information. Returned to changes previously agreed.Z07x10 (talk) 14:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)) (undo) (cur | prev) 09:30, 4 June 2015‎ 86.69.13.240 (talk)‎ . . (167,912 bytes) (+22)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features) (undo) (cur | prev) 09:20, 4 June 2015‎ 86.69.13.240 (talk)‎ . . (167,890 bytes) (+147)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features) (undo) LOL 4. (cur | prev) 16:57, 30 May 2015‎ Mztourist (talk | contribs)‎ . . (167,743 bytes) (-220)‎ . . (→‎Radar signature reduction features: restored tags and removed OR based on percentages of composite usage) (undo | thank)Z07x10 (talk) 14:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish. You can discuss it at ANI Mztourist (talk) 14:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Have done. You actually made a total of 6 reverts, breaking the 3RR twice over before accusing me. Despite waiting 24 hours it's still a breach and edit warring in principle. You made 2 reverts before Fnlayson's text trimming agreement and 4 thereafter. Well done, you just nailed yourself.https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Z07x10_reported_by_User:Mztourist_.28Result:_.29 There is no immunity for reporters: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Don%27t_shoot_yourself_in_the_footZ07x10 (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I am the one who made these edits, not Z07x10. As I said in my edit comment, the ICPS study seems severely biased against Rafale, contains some inaccurate data and does not cite their source. It is not safe to assume that Rafale has 4 times bigger RCS than Typhoon ; that would mean EF has a RCS of less than 0,05m², which is a fairy tale. Objectively, Rafale features more RCS reduction measures by design than what the EF does (Rafale has a greater RAM coating fuselage, fixed air intakes (this is crucial ! Remember this is one of the key point of the low RCS of B-1B), serrated edges (completely absent on Typhoon)). Composite % is far from being the only parameter - remember that 1) composite is not fully radar transparent either 2) what is under the composite airframe (wiring, etc..) is even less radar transparent. Airframe design and shape are a much more prominent parameter. .86.69.13.240 (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually it isn't a fairy tale and this further source supports such an RCS for the Eurofighter. It says that a similar radar which detects an F-35 at 59km can detect a Eurofighter at 120km. A factor of two on range by the radar range formula gives a factor of 16 on RCS, which does indeed put the Eurofighter in this RCS ballpark by equation 14 in second link.

I will add these sources but leave the 'verification needed' tag in place to avoid upset.

Yeah, the rest of your comment is full of unsupported assumptions too. The ramp on the Typhoon intake is fixed geometry. Your assertion of greater RAM coating is unsupported and crucially the Rafale's surface area contains twice as much metal, which reflects radar much better than composites. Crucially the intake is also composite on the Typhoon but aluminium on the Rafale.

http://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-fully-optimized-airframe/Z07x10 (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore the Rafale has a wider canard span, external IFR probe and taller tail with an extremely unstealthy plank-like feature on it.http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/ddm-ng_datasheet-1432732678.pdf

The Typhoon also has semi-recessed storage for 4 BVRAAMs whereas the Rafale's BVRAAM must be mounted on pylons, which is again very unstealthy. As for serrated edges - the F-22 doesn't have them on the intakes either, and it also uses fixed geometry ramps, myth busted.http://www.kbvp.com/sites/default/files/images/F22%20front%20view%20tight.preview.jpg

This link also discusses how the Typhoon's radar is fundamentally stealthier than the Rafale's radar due to being tiltable (page 20-21).http://www.docdroid.net/12ngk/eurofighter-world-feb-15.pdf.htmlZ07x10 (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Z07x10 you have been on Misplaced Pages long enough to know that OR such as the WP:SYNTH that you are using with your multi RS/non-RS references to try to back up the claim that the Typhoon has RCS 1/4 that of Rafale is unacceptable. You have been warned for edit warring this point already, several other users other than myself have taken issue with your changes to this page over the last few days and if your behaviour doesn't change you will be at ANI again very quickly. Mztourist (talk) 17:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed the synthesis from my original edit as requested by Thomas W., what's left are just supporting sources. Note I say 'supporting sources' not verification, which is why I left the 'verification needed' tag. The sources are perfectly reliable. Only the manufacturers of each aircraft know the composite percentages, what other source could they possibly come from, since no one else would know without first getting the information from the manufacturer. The other source is a secondary source, where's the problem? I'm happy for you to add this to the DRN discussion also.https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Eurofighter_Typhoon#RCS_1.2F4_that_of_RafaleZ07x10 (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

You continue to try to argue the same point you edit-warred previously. Your "supporting sources" are a mix of RS and non RS linked by your Synth. You are just adding a lot of spurious information because you can't find a reliable source that clearly supports the claim.

I request all interested Users to form a consensus on whether or not this is acceptable, for me obviously I Oppose Mztourist (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not the same as my previous edit because I have left the verification tag in situ and also given text comparison between composite percentages in the same paragraph. Note previous edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eurofighter_Typhoon&diff=665467470&oldid=665464629

Current edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eurofighter_Typhoon&diff=665778918&oldid=665778690Z07x10 (talk) 18:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

You really don't seem to understand WP:SYNTH because you persist in doing it. In any event http://www.radartutorial.eu/ is a self-published blog and so not WP:RS, while Eurofighter world is a marketing magazine produced by Eurofighter and so a primary source and any statements contained there are questionable. Mztourist (talk) 18:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay I looked it up. I have now broken it out into individually sourced sentences of completely supported facts to comply with 3rd example on the wiki OR/synthesis page, which is marked as correct:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material

As regards the radartutorial site it contains text book material and is written by a radar specialist called Christian Wolff who owns a company that produces radar systems and radar components in the 1-25GHz range, so as sources go, it's as good as it gets.

http://www.radartutorial.eu/html/author.de.html

Primary sources are not prohibited by wikipedia and in certain cases they are the only way of obtaining the information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sourcesZ07x10 (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding http://www.radartutorial.eu/html/author.de.html, see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published sources, which states "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" so unless you can back up his blog with evidence that he is "an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications", its not RS. Mztourist (talk) 03:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

His work is published in books:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89626942/Radar-Tutorial#scribd

http://www.radartutorial.eu/druck/Book3.pdf

http://www.radartutorial.eu/druck/Book2.pdf

And referred to by other published sources

http://tapchi.vnu.edu.vn/upload/2015/01/1546/5.pdf

http://www.richardsonrfpd.com/resources/RellDocuments/SYS_28/Richardson-RFPD_Basic-Principles-of-Radar.pdf

::::::Not to mention the fact that the radar equation on that page is a well established mathematical fact published on wikipedia already, which you would have found out very easily if you'd taken a little time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Radar#Radar_equation

I have now added this source as verification of original but frankly a quick google would readily turn up this equation on multiple sites dealing with radars and you would find it in any radar text book.Z07x10 (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages cannot be used as a source. I cannot open the 1st site, the 2nd and 3rd are just links back to the radar tutorial site, the 4th site refers to two publications written by the radar tutorial site owner, it is not clear who published them, while the 5th is just an abbreviation of an extract from the radar tutorial site. These do not meet the criteria that the radar tutorial site owner is "an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". If the radar equation is indeed "a well established mathematical fact" as you say you should have no difficulty in finding WP:RS for it, rather than continuing to push dubious sources. Mztourist (talk) 08:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Page 2.6:

http://www.dsp-book.narod.ru/skolnik/7913X_02a.pdf taken from http://www.amazon.com/Radar-Handbook-Third-Merrill-Skolnik/dp/0071485473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433666995&sr=8-1&keywords=radar+handbook author also wrote http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Merrill+Skolnik&search-alias=books&text=Merrill+Skolnik&sort=relevancerank

http://uk.mathworks.com/help/phased/ug/radar-equation.html#btdelm7

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/courses/details/EDP306

http://ece.wpi.edu/radarcourse/Radar%202010%20PDFs/Radar%202009%20A%20_4%20Radar%20Equation.pdf

http://www.ece.uah.edu/courses/material/EE619-2011/RadarRangeEquation(2)2011.pdf

http://copradar.com/rdrrange/

http://www.everything2.com/title/Radar+Range+Equation

Now tell me the IEEE, Matlab and The University of Alabama are wrong too. Are any of these sources good enough?Z07x10 (talk) 08:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

So all of these are new sources rather than further attempts to justify the use of the radar tutorial site? You only need to provide one RS, the University of Alabama is a RS and so if you can indicate where in the paper is the calculation you are relying on and give a proper citation that will be acceptable. Mztourist (talk) 10:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Page 14, Equation 2-35:

http://www.ece.uah.edu/courses/material/EE619-2011/RadarRangeEquation(2)2011.pdf

I'll insert this and remove the radar tutorial link.Z07x10 (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Eurofighter Typhoon

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Eurofighter Typhoon's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Qatar":

• From Dassault Rafale: Gallois, Dominique (30 April 2015). "Le Qatar va acheter 24 avions Rafale". Le Monde (in French). Retrieved 30 April 2015.
• From Airbus A380: "Qatar Airways confirms order for 80 A350 XWBs and adds three A380s". Airbus. Archived from the original on 22 June 2008. Retrieved 25 October 2009.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 04:56, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Now fixed. This thread could be deleted.Martinevans123 (talk) 07:33, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Rafale

Trying to understand the issues in recent disputes, we seem to be comparing the Typhoon with the Rafale, as we dont normally compare aircraft in these articles can anybody explain why we need the paragraph "According to the RAF.." and why it cant just be removed, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 18:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

A very good point. I can't really see the justification for it either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I would be happy to see it deleted. Mztourist (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

It should further be noted that the source being cited for the comparison is being misrepresented - it actually reads "According to some estimates the Rafale may appear 4 times bigger on the radar compared to the Eurofighter." 'May appear.' A vague assertion rather than a specific statement about radar cross sections. Nothing to do with the RAF either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Simply replace with a more detailed description of operators. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

And incidentally, the statement that "According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements" is unsourced. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yup, kill it. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

They are both reliable sources. I have removed the bit about RAF requirements already. It was correct but can't be sourced. Globalsecurity.org and ipcs.org are used over 500 times each in wikipedia and have very good credentials.http://www.ipcs.org/about-us/ , http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/overview/praise.htm. Comparisons are not new in fighter articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15 , https://en.wikipedia.org/North_American_F-86_Sabre and are inline with policy. Obviously AndyTheGrump the size of return from a aircraft is proportional to RCS - that is established fact therefore not OR/synthesis. The sources after the 'Detection Range' sentence point this out - a good reason for keeping the paragraph, you read it and learn something.Z07x10 (talk) 20:19, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Aside from that the paragraph contains some good sources and information about composite percentages and the Typhoon radar wrt RCS.Z07x10 (talk) 20:22, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidently WP:RS is another policy you have difficulty understanding. There is no such thing as an abstract 'reliable source' - it always depends on what a source is being cited for. And no, we don't cite a sources own opinion of itself as evidence of reliability. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:25, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Z07x10, are you here to build an encyclopedia by means of consensus or just to continually battle for your own view of how things should be? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm here to build an encyclopedia based on wikipedia policy. There are two sources stating that the Typhoon has a lower RCS, ipcs.org and globalsecurity.org (in two separate articles). These sources are each used over 500 times in wikipedia already. I can't find a single reliable neutral source that states a counter opinion.

http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/SR126-NSP-IndiaandtheRafale.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

A further source compares it to the F-35 wrt detection range, which is proportional to the 4th root of RCS. This can be back calculated to a figure much lower than the Rafale (i.e. 2^4 ~ 16 times F-35 RCS) using the radar equation and estimates of the F-35 frontal RCS. I think the point is very well sourced overall. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html http://www.dsp-book.narod.ru/skolnik/7913X_02a.pdfZ07x10 (talk) 10:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the reliability of the sources being cited, it should be noted that the ipcs source states that "According to some estimates the Rafale may appear 4 times bigger on the radar compared to the Eurofighter", whereas globalsecurity.org gives a figure of 1 m for the Rafale, and 0.5 m for the Typhoon. I think we can thus safely conclude at that at least one of them must be wrong. Though frankly, if the figure globalsecurity.org gives for the F-35 (0.005 m) is correct (which is of course open to question, along with the other data), I suspect that our readers might think we were comparing the Typhoon with the wrong aircraft, or at least omitting a comparison which may be seen as more significant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

RCS varies depending on aspect angle and the ratio of frontal RCS will be different to the ratio of all aspect RCS, or an average covering a given arc. I suspect the globalsecurity.org figure covers a frontal arc and the ipcs.org figure covers only a head-on frontal aspect but that is only opinion. The globalsecurity.org figures are actually an accumulation of different aspects for different aircraft, which is why there are 3 given for the B-2. I am happy to change the wording to 2-4 times as opposed to 4 and give both sources in the interests on neutrality if we can agree on that. The ratio wrt the F-35 varies with angles, the koreatimes source leads to a lower ratio of ~16 times but yes, from some angles it may be 100 times the F-35 RCS. We could include a statement to that affect too.Z07x10 (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's appropriate to add anything based on your suspicions. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus, me, AndyTheGrump, Martinevans123, Dbrodbeck , HLGallon and McSly all oppose the inclusion of the paragraph, but Z07x10 continues to forum-shop and wikilawyer to try to 'win' Mztourist (talk) 03:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I resent that allegation coming from a person who alleged OR, which was then ruled against by Robert McClenon because the alleged synthesised point was already mentioned in the first source, which you didn't read. I recommend that both you and Andy read more and write less. That way, you may one day have an informed opinion on something rather than just an opinion.Z07x10 (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert McLenon hasn't 'ruled against' anything. His participation as a voluntary DRN moderator gives him no authority to make rulings, and he has at no time suggested that he has any such authority - I suggest you stop misrepresenting what he says. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:29, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Funny, you are the one who writes these vast tracts that people can't be bothered reading. As I have said to you before, drop the stick and devote your energy to creating non-contentious content rather than picking fights Mztourist (talk) 11:45, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I have moved the RFM here, because the last one didn't get processed by the Bot.https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Eurofighter_Typhoon_2Z07x10 (talk) 09:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

z07x10... it might help if you could you explain why you think this article needs to include the comparison in the first place. The vast majority of our aircraft articles don't contain comparisons to other aircraft... so why should this article be different? Blueboar (talk) 12:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and North American F-86 Sabre articles include comparisons and I think it should be included simply because the information exists in reliable sources and more information makes for a better encyclopedia. Both aircraft were developed in the same time frame in Europe and therefore the comparison is an interesting and relevant one given the history of the EFA party split.Z07x10 (talk) 07:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I intend to start an RfC on the RCS issue, and allow the community to decide the matter.

As I have made clear at Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Eurofighter Typhoon 2, I do not think mediation is necessary when normal community processes for resolution have not been attempted, and accordingly I will (unless specifically instructed not to by someone in a position to do so) be starting an RfC on the issue. In the interests of fairness, it is clearly appropriate to discuss the precise wording of the RfC first. Accordingly, I ask Z07x10 (or anyone else supporting the section on RCS) to first provide an updated version of the proposed wording, if it is felt that it needs revision in the light of new sources. I see no reason why the wording of the RfC itself need be more complex than a simple "Should the following text on comparative radar cross sections be included in the article?", but if anyone has an alternative suggestion, please do so.

I would ask that people please stay on topic here, and confine discussion strictly to the proposed wording of the RfC - other issues can be discussed in appropriate threads. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:58, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I support this approach Mztourist (talk) 15:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I thought we did have a consenus above not to include the section with only Z07 wanting it to be added, but if you ignore that consensus and think we need an RFC than how about something like Should an exception be made in the "Radar signature reduction features" section to discuss the RCS of the Rafale or F-35 which have no relevance to Typhoon design features. MilborneOne (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2015 (UTC) Struck suggestion as I believe we already have a consensus to remove the section. MilborneOne (talk) 18:03, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC questions are supposed to be neutrally worded. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with MilborneOne. Especially since 1) we usually don't do aircraft to aircraft comparison 2) the sources don't seem to be reliable for the claims and 3) the rest is OR/Synth. --McSly (talk) 21:00, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The synthesis allegation has already been rejected by User: Robert McClenon because the first source states composite percentage as a reason for the RCS difference, therefore I'm not synthesising that point.Z07x10 (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Normally I'd agree with MilborneOne that this would be a simple matter of consensus. But I feel an RfC, as suggested by AndyTheGrump, may be required to examine very thoroughly Z07x10's view that Misplaced Pages policy supports his position, as he so vehemently claims. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't support this approach because there is already an RFM in play and participants should either settle the matter there or drop their case.https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Eurofighter_Typhoon_2 Why have you refused to do so User:AndyTheGrump?Z07x10 (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Mediation looks certain to be rejected. Are you going to propose new wording for the text on RCS, or do you want me to go ahead with the existing wording? That is the only reply needed here, as this RfC is going to happen, with or without your participation, and if you don't propose alternate wording, I will have to assume you are still supporting the existing material. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Because we want a binding decision to end this discussion Mztourist (talk) 07:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

You know, if this would settle this whole mess once and for all I would be fine with it. While there is pretty clear consensus not to include the material I am fine with an RFC. An RFC worded as suggested by Andy is fine by me. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

An RFM gives a binding decision as I understand it. A consensus is subject to change and challenge with time.Z07x10 (talk) 17:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Types of Consensus

I agree as to an RFC. On the one hand, there is a consensus among the currently involved editors that we don't need the section comparing the RCS of the Eurofighter to that of the Rafale, with only Z07x10 disagreeing. On the other hand, an RFC can be publicized at the appropriate Wikiprojects, including the very active Military History project, and is also randomly publicized by Legobot, and would get a larger consensus. It would really be quite useful to get this consensus, because this issue has been going on for at least a year and a half. I would like to see the wording of the RFC before the bot tag is put on the RFC, so that we can review whether the wording is neutral. (A non-neutrally worded RFC is worse than useless, and many RFCs are non-neutrally worded are are useless or harmful.) Robert McClenon (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Z07x10 doesn't support the RFC approach, saying that the RFM is already in play, and participants should either settle the matter there or drop their case. That itself appears to be a very non-neutrally worded statement. It appears to mean that participants should either agree with him and the mediator to include the RFC language or should drop their opposition to the language. The RFM will probably be declined, because no one except Z07X10 has agreed to mediation. In any case, I really have no idea why he thinks that mediation is the next step. Does he really think that, when light-weight moderated discussion at WP:DRN did not result in compromise, formal mediation will result in compromise? Is there anything to compromise? Either the language should be included, or the language should be excluded. Does Z07x10 really think that mediation will result in a decision to force the comparison language in? I really do not understand what Z07x10 expects to be gained by mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Some editors oppose an RFC because they think that there is already a consensus against the language. I agree that there is already a consensus against the language, but an RFC would be a larger consensus. We need to put this matter to rest, because Z07x10 doesn't want to let it drop, and has been going on about this matter for more than a year. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

We don't usually do aircraft-to-aircraft comparison, but there isn't a policy or guideline that says that we don't do aircraft-to-aircraft comparison. That is why not to refer to an exception, and just ask whether to include the comparison language. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

If you wish to propose alternate wording for the RfC, please do so - I have already made specific a proposal ("Should the following text on comparative radar cross sections be included in the article?"). AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That statement of the question is good, but of course needs to be followed by the paragraph that Z07X10 has tried to include in the past. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert we probably need to make this a military/science question but I don't agree with the RFC process because consensus will only get challenged at a later date.Z07x10 (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why you don't agree with the RFC process. Who, other than you, will challenge the consensus? You have been challenging the consensus against including the comparison for eighteen months. Do you just want to continue to argue, rather than to resolve it? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

If you had bothered to read my proposal above, you would have seen that I proposed to do exactly that. Though I would have thought that the words 'following text' would have made this obvious. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

An RFM considers policy as well a head count, that is why I want it.Z07x10 (talk) 17:24, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Here is new wording proposed, I have used 2 sources to give a wider indication of different views on RCS, mods in bold. I think that gives a fair and balanced account using different sources.

Sources have estimated the Rafale's radar return to be 2-4 times greater than the Eurofighter's return depending on aspect. Only 15% of the Typhoon's surface is metal, the rest is non-metallic, including the intakes, whereas the Rafale's surface area is 70% composite and it has metallic intakes. The Typhoon also has a large swash plate mounted radar which can be tilted away from oncoming aircraft to avoid direct reflection, whereas some aircraft with smaller fixed radar have them vertically mounted yielding a larger radar return.An EADS radar expert calculated the range at which a Typhoon can be detected to be roughly twice that of an F-35 with an identical radar, with detection range being proportional to the 4th root of radar cross section. Other sources put the Typhoon's radar cross-section at up to 100 times that of the F-35's depending on the aspect examined.

Those with issues should list them specifically. I believe the OR/synthesis issue is dead as agreed by Robert on the NORN board. Reliability of sources - ipcs.org and globalsecurity.org are used thousands of times in wikipedia for military material. Two sources and two comparisons included for neutrality purposes. So I believe the only remaining issues is whether we do comparisons.Z07x10 (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The issue is indeed whether to include the comparison paragraph. There are multiple reasons why some editors don't want the paragraph. I didn't rule on synthesis; I only offered an opinion, and other editors may disagree. Some editors still have issues with sources, and some with undue weight or NPOV. The issue is indeed whether to include the comparison paragraph, and an RFC is a way to decide that. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

So maybe the first RfC we need is to decide do we need any comparison at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:34, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

How can that last source possibly support the final sentence? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

References

1. "India and the Rafale, Anatomy of a Bad Deal". Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, April 2012.
2. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm
3. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm
4. http://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft
5. http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/sigmafour1/TyphoonConstr_zpslgixpxjr.png
6. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-fully-optimized-airframe/
7. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Materials_of_the_Dassault_Rafale.svg/220px-Materials_of_the_Dassault_Rafale.svg.png
8. http://web.archive.org/web/20140419074552/http://www.eurofighter.com/downloads/Eurofighter_World.pdf
9. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html
10. Budge, Jr., M.C. "Course Material EE619-2011" (PDF). University of Alabama in Huntsville. Retrieved 7 June 2015.
11. Skolnik, Merrill (12 Feb 2008). The Radar Handbook (PDF) (3rd ed.). McGraw-Hill Education. p. 2.6. ISBN 978-0071485470. Retrieved 7 June 2015.
12. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

My bad, I added the wrong source, fixed.Z07x10 (talk) 12:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Going Forward

I have created a section of this talk page called RFC, but have not included the actual proposed paragraph. It isn't a real RFC yet because I haven't added the bot tag to it. When we have agreement that the RFC is neutrally worded on inclusion of the comparison paragraph, I will add the bot tag, and it will become a real RFC. That is how we can go forward. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

A complete waste of time. You can't start a sort-of-RfC then change it half way through. Which is why I asked that we sort the wording out first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

No. You can't change an RFC after the bot tag is applied. That is why we are working out the wording here. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:43, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Then work out the wording in the thread I have already created for the purpose (i.e. this one). Don't start a misleadingly-named sort-of-half-RfC on the underlying question. You cannot change the wording half way through without turning the whole procedure into a complete farce. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposed RFC: Inclusion of Radar Cross-Section Comparison

Should the following paragraph comparing the radar cross-section of the Eurofighter Typhoon with other aircraft be included in the article: Sources have estimated the Rafale's radar return to be 2-4 times greater than the Eurofighter's return depending on aspect. Only 15% of the Typhoon's surface is metal, the rest is non-metallic, including the intakes, whereas the Rafale's surface area is 70% composite and it has metallic intakes. The Typhoon also has a large swash plate mounted radar which can be tilted away from oncoming aircraft to avoid direct reflection, whereas some aircraft with smaller fixed radar have them vertically mounted yielding a larger radar return.An EADS radar expert calculated the range at which a Typhoon can be detected to be roughly twice that of an F-35 with an identical radar, with detection range being proportional to the 4th root of radar cross section. Other sources put the Typhoon's radar cross-section at up to 100 times that of the F-35's depending on the aspect examined.

References

1. "India and the Rafale, Anatomy of a Bad Deal". Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, April 2012.
2. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm
3. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm
4. http://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft
5. http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/sigmafour1/TyphoonConstr_zpslgixpxjr.png
6. http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-fully-optimized-airframe/
7. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Materials_of_the_Dassault_Rafale.svg/220px-Materials_of_the_Dassault_Rafale.svg.png
8. http://web.archive.org/web/20140419074552/http://www.eurofighter.com/downloads/Eurofighter_World.pdf
9. http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html
10. Budge, Jr., M.C. "Course Material EE619-2011" (PDF). University of Alabama in Huntsville. Retrieved 7 June 2015.
11. Skolnik, Merrill (12 Feb 2008). The Radar Handbook (PDF) (3rd ed.). McGraw-Hill Education. p. 2.6. ISBN 978-0071485470. Retrieved 7 June 2015.
12. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

Include your !votes in the Survey section with brief statements as to reason. Do not include threaded discussion in the Survey section, but instead in the Threaded Discussion section.

Survey

Threaded Discussion

Can I ask why Robert McClenon thinks it remotely appropriate to start another thread on the proposed wording for the RfC, when we already have one? What exactly is this supposed to achieve beyond extending this seemingly-unending debate even longer? This is not an RfC (see ), and cannot be changed into one half way through - that is not only contrary to process, but more or less guaranteed to lead to more time-wasting. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Since this isn't an RfC, I suggest it be summarily closed as out of process. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

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