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Ok, following sentence is marked "citation needed":

Hindu Nationalist organizations such as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh have actively criticized the caste system.

The citations are present in the article of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh:

The RSS has advocated the training of Dalits and other backward classes as temple high priests (a position traditionally reserved for Caste Brahmins and denied to lower castes). They argue that the social divisiveness of the Caste system is responsible for the lack of truth adherence to Hindu values and traditions and reaching out to the lower castes in this manner will be a remedy to the problem. The RSS has also condemned 'upper' caste Hindus for preventing Dalits from worshipping at temples, saying that "even God will desert the temple in which Dalits cannot enter"

1. RSS for Dalit head priests in temples,Times of India
2. RSS rips into ban on Dalits entering temples Times of India - January 9, 2007

Clarification on Caste and Economics

"In India, 36.3% of people own no land at all, 60.6% own about 15% of available land, with a very wealthy 3.1% owning 15% of available land". That adds up to 100% of the people, but only 30% of the available land. The easiest explanation for this is that 70% of the land is not owned for farming purposes, but I cannot be certain about this from either this Wiki page nor the citations given. Or does the government or no one at all own the rest of the land? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.29.71 (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose the remainder is not available for farming purposes. I am surprised that it is so high, but you will need to dig into the sources to resolve the myster. - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Very poor article

This article repeatedly tries to blame the British for the caste system, which is historically absurd. There is no section actually describing the caste system and how it operates in India. The history section contains no real history at all. The article falsely asserts that caste is found in other religions. (It's true that in India some followers of other religions have adopted caste from Hinduism, but that's not the same thing.) This article needs a complete rewrite by someone who knows Indian history and is not primarily motivated by a desire to deny that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism and to blame the British for it. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 23:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:VNT.VictoriaGrayson 01:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

So what? Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 02:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The parts regarding the British are high quality academic sources discussed many times in the archives.VictoriaGrayson 02:14, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyone can write an article demonstrating whatever they want to believe, by selective use of sources. It's obviously nonsense to say that the British were responsible for the caste system. I will find some other sources when I get time. Meanwhile the other points I raised have not been addressed. The most important are that there is no actual description of the caste system and no proper history of it. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 08:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Intelligent Mr Toad 2: There is a certain school of academic scholarship, post-colonialism, which focuses on studying the contribution of colonialism to the ills of the third world. There are a lot of their ideas that are accepted as well as a lot that are not. Their ideas on caste system are on the borderline. The fault of article is not making it clear that this is a particular strand of academic scholarship, not universally accepted. To that extent, we are misrepresenting the academic consensus. I did try to fix it once but, unfortunately, there are plenty of editors here that share the post-colonial ideas and they keep deleting my fixes. Please feel free to reinstate them. Here is a pointer to the old discussion Talk:Caste_system_in_India/Archive_8#The_word_.22postmodern.22 - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes I'm aware of that school of historical interpretation. I have no objection to the article noting that such views are held by some writers. I object to their views being presented as facts. I also object to the same statement about the British being repeated at least three times, including in the opening paragraph. But as I said before my real problem with this article is that it provides neither a proper description of the caste system nor a proper history of it. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

One of the articles cited for the British stuff is a review article. A review article summarizes the research of several scholars.VictoriaGrayson 15:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Removing statement from lead

Caste is often thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime. The statement brings in colonial regime right after talking about ancient Hindu life. The paragraph continues on the effect of colonial regime on caste, based up on the initial assumption cited from Zwart. Importantly Zwart does not discuss about the origins of caste, nor about the effects of colonial regime. He merely makes a passing reference based on contemporary scholars. The article is mainly about the logic and consequences of affirmative action in Independent India. The whole article contains a couple of citation on the effects of colonial regime.

Presently the lead section gives undue weight to the effects of colonial regimes, based on an article which discusses something else. WP:Lead WP:RSCONTEXT

Apparently it attributes origin of caste system to colonial regime which may or may not be true but currently is unsubstantiated here. In fact the whole paragraph violates WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE of harping mainly upon the affirmative action and the relation ship between state and caste even before describing what caste is and what are its attributes. -- AB 12:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please don't add a lot of unnecessary white space to your messages. People need to be able to see all viewpoints without having to scroll too much.

You are arguing WP:DUE, but, to argue that, you should have a considered view of the overall literature on Caste. You don't exhibit any such. So, offhand, I don't see any merit in your argument. What Zwart talks about is not relevant here. All that matters is whether the statement here is supported by the source, which it is. Now, Zwart gives plenty of references for the viewpoint, which you need to look at to get an understanding of why it has been made. Your own views carry no weight here on Misplaced Pages.

By the way, my own views agree with yours somewhat. But I don't yet have an argument that is valid for Misplaced Pages. Neither do you. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 12:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

My contention is that Zwart doesn't discuss the cited claim, neither provides the reason/citation for making such an elaborate claim as to caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime to be included in the lead section of the article. Please point out if you find out that in Zwart. I will be obliged if you quote where in Zwart discusses/cites rather than an obscure reference to 'contemporary scholars' which I think violates WP:RSCONTEXT. Until you provide me the quote may I reverse your edit? --- AB 13:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I would like to add following points for removal of the statement, even if Zwart mentions one or two ' contemporary scholars'. 1. The cited article is not about the claim. 2. There is no wide spread academic or otherwise consensus for making such a sweeping claim. 3. If it is Zwarts' and his ' contemporaries ' opinion, then at best it becomes one of the view points about the interaction between colonial regime and caste system, not an undisputed and authentic entry into lead section of an encyclopaedia. -- AB 14:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a direct quote from Zwart: "Caste used to be thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime."VictoriaGrayson 14:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, I see it in the abstract. What I am asking is where are the names and a discussion so as to make a sweeping claim? WP:FRINGE-- AB 14:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please bring out the consensus citing reliable sources before pushing fringe POV into lead section. -- AB 14:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, no new consensus is needed for the prevailing text, which has been there for several years. You should look through the archives to see the past talk discussions. You might disagree with it. And so do several scholars. The way to contest is to include the opposing viewpoints in the article as required by WP:WEIGHT. You can't simply censor it because you don't like it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

As per WP:BRD, the onus is on you to argue for the change to the prevailing text, unless there is something obviously faulty with it (like being unsourced). - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

So I went to books.google.com and googled the actual phrase "caste system was constructed by the british" and found a plethora of sources supporting that beyond Zvart. Dirks alone got a glowing review from Edward Said.

• Bayly, Susan (22 February 2001). Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age. Cambridge University Press. p. 392. ISBN 978-0-521-79842-6.
• Dirks, Nicholas B. (9 October 2011). Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India. Princeton University Press. ISBN 1-4008-4094-5.
• Sathaye, Adheesh A. (17 April 2015). Crossing the Lines of Caste: Visvamitra and the Construction of Brahmin Power in Hindu Mythology. Oxford University Press. p. 214. ISBN 978-0-19-027312-5.
• St. John, Ian (2012). The Making of the Raj: India Under the East India Company. ABC-CLIO. p. 103. ISBN 978-1-84645-014-3.

Those are just the first four I grabbed from the first page of sources, so I think in terms of scholarship, that is not a fringe position. Ogress _smash! 16:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Ogress.VictoriaGrayson 17:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

As it now exists in the article, it is the first reliable statement about origins -construction - invoking scholarship to substantiate the point. Nothing else till then mentioned about the origins of caste. The citation from Zwart was not a conclusion, but an ex hypothesi argument for driving in his intended objective of the - relation between post colonial government's affirmative action and caste system. Zwart does not conclusively talk about the idea, rather mentions that post modern theorists tries to credit government with the power to 'construct' social and cultural identity. He continues that In post colonial India this concept is prominent in studies of colonial government and caste. Some authors claim that India's caste system was constructed by British colonial administration.(p236, ibid.) Now the problem here is Zwart does not mention,nor provide a reference as to who these scholars are. It is in this context I wanted to remove the initial statement about origins of caste in the Lead section. To the uninitiated, caste system, as per the ,lead of the article, look like categorically constructed by the British colonial administration.

And I still think that it is in contradiction to what is mentioned in WP:LEAD i.e. The lead is the first part of the article most people read, and many only read the lead. Let me read those new citations by Ogress now. AB 18:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. Zwart gives ample references: "(Pant 1987; Dirks 1989; Inden 1990; Appadurai 1993; Ludden 1993)" in the paper. Have you looked at those sources? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

None to categorically state British colonial administration constructed caste system. Care to find and quote? Rather than a vague statement of 'Zwart gives ample references'. Burden of proof is on whom? ( Not on me I assume, for finding out upon whom Zwart relies for saying what?) AB 18:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You are being deliberately obscurantist: they literally say these things. I'm not going to type out the sentences because you can't be arsed to read the cites, which have page numbers attached. I feel like this should be a new WP policy, IMNOTGOINGTOCHEWYOURFOODFORYOU Ogress _smash! 19:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Ogress and Kautilya3.VictoriaGrayson 19:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Ogress (talk · contribs) They say these things? Who and what? And relax. AB 19:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You were provided with quotes before, and found some excuse to dismiss them.VictoriaGrayson 19:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@ABEditWiki: Your argument is that Zwart is making a statement which does not appear in any of his sources; so it is invalid. It doesn't work that way. Zwart is a scholar writing in a peer-reviewed journal. So, he can summarize his sources and we can take those summaries as fact. If there are other sources that contradict this view, then we say Zwart's sources (postmodernists or whatever) say this. The other sources say that. But your claim is that you think that Zwart's sources don't say what he claims. Unfortunately, you are not a reliable source. We don't care what you think. (Well we do, but only up to a point. When you start claiming superiority over reliable sources, you have lost the game. So, please stop doing it.) - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@ABEditWiki: I would at this point alert you to WP:CALMDOWN. Also, I am not worked up, so I'm not sure why you would say that. "They" is a pronoun referring to the scholars you are referencing. Ogress _smash! 19:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Interesting discussion. I've always found the statement on the British quite odd, but never dared to touch it; I know close to nothing about the caste, c.q. jati system. But I also tried a quick Google search, and it seems to me too that this claim is not so weird after all. And I'm surprised by this!

Nevertheless, more info on the historical origins would be very welcome! If only for the recent research om indian genetics, which shows that after 200 CE the Indian social system lost its "genetic mobility," that is, social groups were fixed and no longer inter-married. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: Of course such a claim may have many google hits. It indeed is odd particularly with regard to WP:UNDUE to disregard any or all of other interpretation of origins of caste system. If you could help me out, could cite a dozen sources on a couple of view points belonging to Indology, Structuralism, and Marxism. Lets try to reach a consensus on what should go in the lead regarding origins of caste/caste system AB 19:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kautilya3 and Ogress.VictoriaGrayson 19:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I am not stating 'Zwart is making a statement which does not appear in any of his sources; so it is invalid.' Instead what I am stating is that, Zwart himself doesn't state 'British colonial administration constructed caste systems' in conclusive manner, because that is not the intention of the whole article. What he makes is an initial observation so as to drive his point which is not "British colonial administration constructed caste system". So what my contention is, again, the article by Zwart is not concluding the statement in the lead, categorically. At best, Zwart points to existence of some reference as to support the statement of ' British colonial administration constructed case system' which you neither finds out. Of course, I am not contending inclusion of this statement in the body of WP article with reference to who made it; but to include it in the lead with categorical emphasis, such passing reference wouldn't suffice, especially in a topic such as caste system, where there is no dearth of RS. AB 19:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Well you are barking up the wrong tree because we are not saying that Zwart made these claims. We are saying that "contemporary scholars" make these claims, which is exactly what Zwart said. Your trouble seems to be that you don't what citation means. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Is this new original research that caste system is founded by British? --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 19:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: Please see Talk:Caste system in India/Archive 8 for an earlier discussion. The consensus is that "caste" existed prior to the arrival of the British. But the "caste system" was their construction. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

That is the wrong way around. The right thing to do is to expand the History section first. Then the new lead will automatically fall out. - Kautilya3 (talk) 19:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please explain why you say wrong? Is it according to any WP policy that the 'right thing to do is to expand the History section first'?? AB 20:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the lead should summarize the article, not become a separate article of its own. So, without developing the content for the body, you can't do it for the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

ABEditWiki is just repeating the same stuff over and over again. And this forces Kautilya3 and Ogress to repeat themselves.VictoriaGrayson 20:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Zwart may have said in passing that contemporary scholars says so but my contention is that, is it enough to make it to the lead? I fear we need some unbiased third party for an opinion here. How do we go for such a process? AB 20:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please add your messages strictly chronologically at the bottom. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to figure out who said what.

If contemporary scholars say it, that should be good enough for it to go into the lead. Why shouldn't it? As for an "unbiased third party", I am such because I don't agree with the statement, but I know that it needs to be there by Misplaced Pages policies. So I would encourage you to follow my advice by developing new content on the history of caste in pre-British times. You are merely looking for quick fixes, by saying that the statement you don't like should simply disappear. That won't work. If you want another mechanism for dispute resolution, you can go to WP:DRN, but the chances of getting a resolution there are practically nil because this talk page discussion has been made a mess of. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Origins

Why statement starts as "caste was 'thought' to be part of ancinet Hinduism" why thought to be when its a fact? Why no statement stating that Caste system established by Hinduism? British may have used it, but root of caste system is hinduism, not british. We have to mention it. I will change lead accordingly. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 19:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry my friend. You are engaging in WP:OR now. Please read the sources instead of wasting our time. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Human3015: Hold on, we will build a consensus here and will go to lead afterwards. We need a better statement/s incorporating different views of origins of caste sytem, not just one. AB 20:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

"Hinduism", as a category, may be seen as a British invention, so to state that "Hinduism created the caste system" has a nice irony in it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposing a balanced lead section

The first two paragraph of the lead section are fairly well written and keeps balance as well as NPOV.
Third paragraph may contain a brief about origins and a rough chronological map of evolution of caste systems, (not only during colonial and democracatic regimes but also ancient, medieval and modern times) as described by various point of views such as indologists, structuralists, marxists and post modernists (not only constructivists as done in the body of article about Colonial regime constructing the caste system.

Another paragraph would contain different views about the system as practiced and perieved today.The modern day consequences and interaction with the political-economic interface can be mentioned here.
-- AB 12:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Listen, I believe you are mischaracterising these sources that you don't like as "constructivists". You think modern scholarship is going to be essentialist? I feel a bit like you don't understand scholarship when you say things like this unless you plan on loading the page with HIndutva nationalism. Can you provide reliable scholarship sources to illustrate what you mean? Ogress _smash! 17:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

(Off Topic)So you intend to say those who plan to load the page with 'Hindutva Nationalism' ( Whatever that means!) understand scholarship, invariably? AB 18:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I apologise, I actually couldn't understand that sentence, would you rephrase? Ogress _smash! 19:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, never mind. Cheers!. AB 19:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Note that there are two slightly different statements:

• Lead: "Caste is often thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime."
• History: "Caste used to be considered as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars have argued that the caste system as it exists today is the result of the British colonial regime, which made caste organisation a central mechanism of administration."

I think that the first should be changed to reflect the cahnge from a fluid system into a rigid system, instead of suggesting that the whole system originated with the British. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: Well, if only if post modern constructivist interpretations of origins of caste system exist there. Plenty other interpretations which are beaming with reliable sources do exist on caste. AB 19:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: The existing lead is correct. This is a direct quote from Zwart: "Caste used to be thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime."VictoriaGrayson 19:59, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@VictoriaGrayson: Zwart is not the ultimate and only authority of caste system.I am afraid you are being inexplicably stubborn here, blocking any attempt to reach a consensus here. AB 20:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I still know very little about caste and caste system, but now I maybe know a little bit more than half an hour ago, and the correct info might be that "caste" already existed at 200 CE, but that the "(rigid) caste system" was created by the British. So, several statements may be correct, and the problem may be pinned down at the "correct" formulation of the information, and the avoidance of ambiguous and/or somewhat suggestive statements. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

To be more precise: "Caste used to be thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life" - does this mean that there were no castes in "ancient" times? And: "contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime." - does this mean thatb there were no castes at earlier times? I can't tell from this sentence! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

By the way, ABEditWiki, Vic may not be the easiest editor to argue with, but he sure has a good grip on his sources, and he usually knows what he's tlking about. Stating that he's "blocking any attempt to reach a consensus here" definitely is not going to help here. Just take it lightly, at the personal side. At the professional side, what may help may be an attempt to find some counter-voices, preferably from Oxford University Press and the like - that is, simply from the best sources available and nothing less. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I get it. :) Well needless to say, nothing is personal. AB 20:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

See also

These articles raise the same issues regarding the British Raj

• Hindu law
• Classical Hindu law
• Classical Hindu law in practice
• Robert Lingat — foremost authority on the latter

—Pawyilee (talk) 17:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

And, this issue is explained in detail in Census of India prior to independence. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert Lingat died 35 years ago; he's hardly the foremost authority anymore. You are also missing the point of the argument, which isn't that varna didn't exist, but that caste and casteism as it exists in theory and in practice is the direct result of Western colonialism. The scholars are saying: in pre-British India, we have a very different system with very different principles and realities. Caste qua caste only appears as a result of the imposition of foreign ideals and the colonial need to create a rigid, racist, hierarchical structure. Before you start yelling, read instead of assuming. Ogress _smash! 19:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Lingat invented the subject of Classical Hindu law in practice, and the posthumous English language translation of his work published in French remains the principle — if not the only — text on the subject. It was he who first raised the issue of the British misunderstanding of the practice of Hindu law. I'll leave it to other editors to decide if these See also's should be added to the main article; I doubt most readers would click on them, anyway.—Pawyilee (talk) 09:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Who's responding to what?

Anybody still at the right as to who is responding to what? ;) Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Disputed content

As i see it, this sentence in the lead is complete nonsense: Caste is often thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars argue that the caste system as it exists today is the result of the British colonial regime, which made rigid caste organisation a central mechanism of administration. Soham321 (talk) 20:35, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It has been sourced from a reliable source and the body of the article explains why it has been said citing plenty more sources. You are engaging in original research in calling it "complete nonsense." - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

If someone gives a hundred references which say the sun rises from the west, does that mean they are right? This nonsense can be definitely inserted in the main article if you insist, but definitely not in the lead. Notice that the page number has not been given to the book of the solitary Indian scholar who has been cited as reference: Sathaye, Adheesh A. (17 April 2015). Crossing the Lines of Caste: Visvamitra and the Construction of Brahmin Power in Hindu Mythology. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-027312-5. Is it because the Sathaye book is available in its entirety online? Is it because it was felt necessary to give reference to at least a single Indian scholar for this piece of nonsense? Soham321 (talk) 20:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Why are you talking about the race and ethnicity of scholars?VictoriaGrayson 20:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Because many scholars even today are racists. Only recently, the Nobel prize winning scientist, and co-discoverer of DNA structure, James Watson was sacked from his job for articulating racist views publicly. Soham321 (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source that says sun rises in the West, I can insert it in Misplaced Pages as per Misplaced Pages policies. So, I challenge you to produce such a reliable source. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

you can insert nonsense in the main article, if you insist, but not in the lead. Soham321 (talk) 21:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, you will need to develop your own Misplaced Pages to make up your own rules. Where is the reliable source for the Sun rising in the West? You supposedly have a hundred! - Kautilya3 (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Contentious, controversial, and disputed content can be definitely inserted--even if it is nonsense--in the main article if you give reliable sources, but not in the lead. That is my position. The very fact that other editors have seen it fit to either place the Disputed content tag in the main article or else to remove the disputed sentence from the main article means that there is a genuine content dispute taking place here. Let us both of us give an opportunity to other editors of this article to voice their views on this issue now. Soham321 (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:VNT.VictoriaGrayson 21:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that contentious material cannot be put in the lead? Did you read it in any policy? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

There was a content dispute (about the issue of what to insert in the lead) with respect to content on this page:Cyrus Pallonji Mistry. Pallonji is an Irish citizen, but an Indian permanent resident who believes that the color of his passport is not important and who views himself as a global citizen. Sitush wanted to describe Pallonji as an Irish businessman based on the reliable sources available that describe him as an Irish citizen or Irish national. I said he should be described as an Indo-Irish, or Irish-Indian businessman in the lead.Finally, an Admin stepped in and described him as simply a businessman in the lead. Soham321 (talk) 21:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

As per WP:LEAD, all controversies about the topic should also mentioned in the lead. - Kautilya3 (talk) 21:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

According to WP:LEAD, the lead should be written with a neutral point of view. That is why you are not being permitted to insert non-neutral information in the lead. Soham321 (talk) 22:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing called "non-neutral information." Neutral point of view, WP:NPOV, has to do with how the article text is written. It has nothing to do with cherry picking sources depending on your whims. Such cherry picking is prohibited. - Kautilya3 (talk) 22:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The first line in WP:NPOV states: All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Since PV Kane in his authoritative and monumental and frequently cited work History of Dharmasastra does not agree with the controversial view taken by the mediocre and unknown scholars being citied in the disputed sentence in the lead of this page we should agree that the disputed content does not represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, let us expand this discussion to other editors. Give it a rest for a few days now. Let us see what other editors think of this discussion and of the disputed material. Let us not make the mistake of assuming ownership of this article because as per WP:OWN, that is forbidden.Soham321 (talk) 23:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You are dispute-tagging a multiply-reliably-sourced lede? Sounds like Misplaced Pages:I just don't like it to me. Ogress _smash! 23:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, but i did give the reference to PV Kane's monumental and frequently cited work History of Dharmasastras which is the authoritative work on the dharmasastras and which traces the evolution of the caste system in ancient and medieval India and which controverts the disputed edit. If you have half a dozen mediocre and unknown scholars on one side, and one renowned and frequently cited author on the other, who would you go with? Moreover, the reference to the solitary Indian scholar being mentioned in the disputed edit does not include the page number of his book being cited despite his book being available in its entirety online?Soham321 (talk) 23:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Again my objection is to placing this edit in the lead of the article. You are welcome to place this material elsewhere. Soham321 (talk) 23:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You are approaching this all arse-about-face, Soham. The lead is supposed to reflect and summarise the article. Such a significant argument posited by modern scholars (whether you accept their opinion or not) has to be a part of the lead. As with most scholarship, Newton's comment that successive generations are "standing on the shoulders of giants" holds true: those writing and proposing ideas now have the benefit of hindsight that their forebears lacked but created. We cannot just dismiss a widely-held aspect of modern scholarship because we do not like it and, even if Kane is acceptable as a source, that is but one voice. Please take another look at WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV and the subject of due weight. It is not our role to judge these scholars, merely to paraphrase them. - Sitush (talk) 23:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The view that the modern caste system was created by the British is a view of the lunatic fringe. As evidence for this, see here: Lunatic Fringe Soham321 (talk) 00:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC) I have a theory about this. Many of these wealthy non-resident Indians are ardent nationalists. No doubt that is why they are so keen to deny the very existence of the caste system in pre-British India. So what are they to do about this? Well, why not give funding to mediocre and useless scholars of Indology who get very little funding anyways. Give them funding and instruct them to spread fringe theories. For a good scholarly expose of those espousing lunatic fringe theories about the Indian caste system and other topics related to India, see here: https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/the_global_south/v002/2.1.bose.html Soham321 (talk) 00:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Some more interesting and relevant stuff: California textbook controversy over Hindu history. Just do a control-F on the word "caste". Soham321 (talk) 00:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure which sources you consider to be written by "wealthy non-resident Indians". I know that Hindutva can be a big problem with revisionist history and that the Brits were unduly influenced by the Brahmins but neither of those seem to be used as sources. Am I missing something as I pop in and out of this discussion? I've got the feeling that we may be talking at cross-purposes. - Sitush (talk) 10:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Note also Kane has no bearing on the issue here. He wrote about the history of dharmasastras, not about the history of caste as it was practised. The latter is documented by historians as required by WP:HISTRS. Moreover, Kane's volumes were written between 1930-1962. They can't trump contemporary scholars and contemporary research. I am also concerned that you are continuing to make racist remarks about researchers that you don't find convenient. That can invite more serious sanctions. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Ogress and Kautilya3.VictoriaGrayson 23:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The statement in question could be a little more nuanced, but the inaccuracy tag is inappropriate, and Soham321 seems to have a misunderstanding of our policies, particularly WP:NPOV and WP:RS. We don't need scholars or sources to be neutral, we need them to be reliable. We don't need the lead to contain only "neutral" content; its neutrality is derived from giving due weight to legitimate sources. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

California Textbook case

This was part of the disputed material in the California textbook controversy case: Once their society had merged with the local population, a late hymn of the Rig Veda described the four castes.Hindu organizations in the US wanted to alter this text to: "A late hymn of the Rig Veda describes the interrelationship and interdependence of the four social classes.” Their proposal was not accepted by the two scholars Prof Bajpai and Prof Witzel who represented the State of California.Soham321 (talk) 01:06, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with anything.VictoriaGrayson 01:10, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Let us compare the disputed material cited above in the California textbook controversy case with the disputed content of this article: Caste is often thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but various contemporary scholars argue that the caste system as it exists today is the result of the British colonial regime, which made rigid caste organisation a central mechanism of administration.Soham321 (talk) 01:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Some other interesting and relevant material pertaining to the California Textbook case: The "corrections" demanded by the Hindutva organisations are integral to the Sangh Parivar's political agenda in India, and similar to what the BJP government was trying to do with the NCERT syllabus and textbooks in social sciences, particularly history. For example, among the "corrections" suggested is a clear attempt to deny the integrality of the caste system in ancient India; it was proposed to delete the reference altogether in one textbook. In another, it was proposed that the picture of an untouchable be removed. In yet another book, a reference to caste system as part of Aryan society was replaced by: "During Vedic times, people were divided into different social groups (varnas) based on their capacity to undertake a particular profession." Another reference to caste is to read as: "A late hymn of the Rg Veda describes the interrelationship and interdependence of the four social classes. A saffron assault abroad Soham321 (talk) 02:49, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• And this is an extract from an interview of Prof Witzel of Harvard University who represented the State of California in the controversy:

I believe your panel had objections about the corrections relating to the caste system. It is always complicated. First of all, the textbooks authors had confused caste and class although that has been corrected. But they say the caste system developed in the last few centuries or so. But the fact that the caste system was there before the British came to rule India is denied by them.To come back to our point, what they are doing is misrepresentation of both history and religion.Witzel interviewSoham321 (talk) 02:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I think your point is clear, but it fits in in: the castes existed prior to the British occupation; the British turned it into a rigid system. If there's anything to be disputed, it is the question if the the caste-system was already rigid before the British. If so, there must be sources on it. Welcome, by the way. It's a relief to see how the discussions have been changed recently, with unexpected fluidity and "alliances" in positions taken. A great improvement. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan:What I read from Soham321 edits here is this - that castes existed prior to British colonialism. I do not see him stating that the British turned into a rigid system. In my view, the notion of Colonialism making it into a rigid system has to be seen in context of operation of different regimes from the initial beginning of caste system. Some RS has to be there to compare and contrast interactions between caste and different political regimes. AB 05:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

That is correct. I am not stating that the british transformed the caste system to make it rigid; it was already a rigid system before the british arrived in India. This also what the 2013 genetic analysis (quoted in the next section) says when it states that a certain rigidity in the caste system had developed roughly two thousand years ago. Soham321 (talk) 06:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC) This is a relevant link from Prof Michael Witzel's personal website: Witzel. It contains court judgements pertaining to the California textbooks case. (Hindutva organizations had taken this matter to court. The Hindutvas lost all the cases that they had filed, and finally their case was dismissed with prejudice meaning they cannot file any case pertaining to this matter again.). This is an extract from the first court judgement: It is true, of course, that the texts do include significant discussion of the caste system. Such discussion does not, however, by itself cause any of the texts to violate the law. The caste system is a historical reality, and indisputably was a significant feature of ancient Indian society. Nothing in the applicable standards requires textbook writers to ignore a historical reality of such significant dimension, even if studying it might engender certain negative reactions in students. Indeed, it appears to the Court that to omit treatment of the caste system from the teaching of ancient Indian history would itself be grossly inaccurate.Soham321 (talk) 06:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

PLEASE STOP BOLDING QUOTES: we use {{quote|}} or "". Ogress _smash! 07:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)ok.Soham321 (talk) 07:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@Soham321: You can stop beating the drum. None of us here is a Hindutva proponent. In fact most of us have battled Hindutva POV-pushers hundreds of times. What you are noticing is that the postcolonialst view that the British created the "caste system" is found to be convenient by Hindutva forces. That doesn't automatically invalidate their research. As long as they are scholarly, those views should be represented on Misplaced Pages. As for Michael Witzel, he is a Sanskiritist, not a historian, anthropologist or sociologist. So, his views on caste, especially those published in newspaper interviews rather than peer-reviewed publications, can't trump the views of the researchers. Witzel might have a considered view of what the Sanskrit texts say, but he can't necessarily judge to what extent those edicts were practised. You can keep looking to see if he has any peer-reviewed publications on caste and what the reaction of the scholars has been to his views. Unless there is such analysis, his views can only be a minor footnote in this article. - Kautilya3 (talk) 15:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Let us not forget that Witzel was the expert appointed by the State of California in the California textbooks case. Are you suggesting the State of California appointed Witzel as an expert without doing due diligence? The sanskrit texts are relevant because by studying them one can trace the evolution of the caste system as was also done by PV Kane in his books History of Dharmasastras. And the reason one may not find peer reviewed publications of Witzel focussing exclusively on the caste system is obviously because he is in agreement with the well accepted view of the caste system, and not in agreement with the "revisionist" views of the caste system. Incidentally, here is a relevant extract from the book "Rethinking Hindu Identity" by Dwijendra Nath Jha:Jha. There is a wikipedia biographical article on Jha: D.N. Jha. Notice that Jha uses Witzel as one of his references in his book, Jha is in agreement with Witzel on the caste system, and Jha had also expressed his opinion on the California textbooks case: Have your textbooks been saffronized Soham321 (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC) This is a relevant extract from the article 'have your textbooks been saffronized':

Days before the curriculum commission was to meet to consider these and other changes, Harvard University’s only tenured Sanskrit professor Michael Witzel received word of the changes about to be made and quickly drafted a letter to the Virginia State Board of Education. He argued, “The proposed revisions are not of a scholarly but of a religious-political nature, and are primarily promoted by Hindutva supporters and non-specialist academics writing about issues far outside their area of expertise.” The letter was endorsed by 47 other Asian-studies scholars, including Sanskrit professor Robert Goldman and renowned Indian historians Romila Thapar and D. N. Jha.The Hindutva won the first round, with the commission accepting almost all of their recommendations. The scholars quickly rebounded, however. At the next meeting, they brought Dalits who explained how the proposed changes hid the violent truth of caste-based discrimination.

Soham321 (talk) 16:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, that would imply that the academics couldn't win an academic point. So they played politics to get their way. Not a particularly honourable position to be in. How did the Hindutva forces win the first round? - Kautilya3 (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidence from Genetic Research on existence of caste system 2,000 years ago

This is an extract from a news article: The caste system in South Asia — which rigidly separates people into high, middle and lower classes — may have been firmly entrenched by about 2,000 years ago, a new genetic analysis suggests.Researchers found that people from different genetic populations in India began mixing about 4,200 years ago, but the mingling stopped around 1,900 years ago, according to the analysis published today (Aug. 8) in the American Journal of Human Genetics. Combining this new genetic information with ancient texts, the results suggest that class distinctions emerged 3,000 to 3,500 years ago, and caste divisions became strict roughly two millennia ago. Genetic study on caste systemSoham321 (talk) 03:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC) And this is a link to the actual paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929713003248 Note that this paper was published in September 2013 Soham321 (talk) 04:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Genetics are a waste of time for articles about Indian history. Have you noticed how many qualifiers there are even in the bit you quoted, eg: "may have", "suggests", "according to". And it is mixing research on genetics with research on ancient texts - most ancient Indian texts are widely regarded to be more fiction than fact. That the caste system existed in the ancient world is not disputed even by the likes of Zwart. What the contemporary people are saying is that the British administrative efforts, driven often by Brahmin urgings, served to intensify the significance of caste in a modern context, to reinforce boundaries within the system etc and thus made it more "rigid". There was a certain amount of fluidity in the pre-British system, whereby people's caste roles were redefined. That, for example, is why there are so many "degraded kshatriyas". Or so the postcolonialists say.

In a society where there was little geographic movement, it is inevitable that the DNA profile will be fairly narrow for a considerable period of time. One doesn't need a degree in genetics to realise this and, generally, there is much rubbish written about genetics in the historic Indian context, usually by people who conduct very limited surveys for a socio-political purpose. At the end of the day, we simply do not know and never will because we all have the DNA of millions of our predecessors, and none at all from some with whom we are related. Basically, never use these reports because they are couched in such terms as to be meaningless for our purposes. - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Did you click on the link to the news report? It has comments by Prof Michael Witzel of Harvard University who had represented the State of California in the California textbooks case. The Hindutvas were of the same opinion as you--that the British created the caste system as we know it today. Their view was not accepted by Witzel and the State of California (including the California judiciary). Soham321 (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Did you read what I said? You are talking bullshit - nowhere have I said that I share the opinion of the Hindutvas - their opinion is not even relevant anyway and you are flogging a head horse by repeatedly raising it. - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You may claim that you do not share the views of the Hindutvas but the fact remains that they share your view that the caste system as we know it today is a creation of the British. They even filed cases in the State of California pertaining to this issue and other issues so that their views are reflected in California text books. They lost. Soham321 (talk) 14:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

DRN?

• comment: I think this issue will go to "Dispute resolution board". Matter has been already discussed vastly. Still I appeal to all editors to discuss this matter more extensively here so that moderators on DRN will not reject this case after seeing vast discussion on talk page. Thank you. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 12:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Someone at some point has to take this to DRN. Soham321 (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I think you should first try to find some more sources which tell us more on the history of the jati-system. If there are, we can expand the article; if you can't, then there's no issue to be resolved, but only a statement on the British influence on the jati-system, referenced by multiple reliable sources. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Disputed content continued - History and "rigidity"

Susan Bayly (2012), Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age, Cambridge University Press, p.25:"Yet, until relatively recent times, many Indians were still comparatively untouched by the norms of jati and varna as we understand them." As I said, this is not what I expected, but it seems to be stated by many researchers. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:06, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

"That the caste system existed in the ancient world is not disputed even by the likes of Zwart. What the contemporary people are saying is that the British administrative efforts, driven often by Brahmin urgings, served to intensify the significance of caste in a modern context, to reinforce boundaries within the system etc and thus made it more "rigid". There was a certain amount of fluidity in the pre-British system, whereby people's caste roles were redefined. That, for example, is why there are so many "degraded kshatriyas". Or so the postcolonialists say"

This view is not what the lead reflects. With regard to its origin, to the uninitiated, caste is ' thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life' and 'is the result of the British colonial regime'. I have mentioned it earlier as well. It is the first sentence on the origins of caste system in the lead and it directly comes to Colonialism as if there has been no time period such as ancient, and pre - British India. I assume the article is not only about the caste system in Colonial and post colonial India. Further the lead has 5 references to affirmative action based on caste, which I believe is POV pushing.

PS: How do I cite sources and request for a rewrite? Here in talk page? AB 12:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@ABEditWiki: author, year of publication, title, publisher, pagenumber, eventually quotes. No need for DRN; first look for sources, and try to add info on the history, as Kautilya3 suggested. The discussion is heated, but fair. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

There are two references given for the disputed content without the page number of the book (one of them by Sathaye) being given. This is a pity because the Sathaye book at least is available online. However, i will add that the view of these relatively obscure authors is contradicting the view of the eminent Indologist Prof Michael Witzel of Harvard (who had represented the State of California in the California textbooks case) and also contradicting the view of the judges who had considered and ruled on this material in the California textbooks case which has been mentioned in an earlier section in this talk page.Soham321 (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Susan Bayly is a relatively obscure name in the field of Indology. She cannot ever be compared to a scholar like Michael Witzel of Harvard who had represented the State of California in the California textbooks case. Bayly's views echo the views of the Hindutvas (when she says that the caste system as we know it today is a creation of the British); Witzel dismisses these views as nonsensical. Please see the two earlier sections of this talk page in this connection. Soham321 (talk) 14:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Susan (and Christopher) Bayly are both highly respected in their field. You have to stop banging on about Witzel in the context of the books thing. No-one in their right mind cites NCERT books anyway because they are notorious for reflecting government propaganda, whether BJP or INC. - Sitush (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Witzel is a Professor at Harvard University. He has edited several volumes of the Harvard Oriental Series besides being a prolific and well respected scholar. Bayly in contrast is a relatively unknown and obscure name in the field of Indology. Bayly's view that the caste system as we know it today was a creation of the British was also the view of the Hindutvas who filed cases in California that California textbooks should contain the views Bayly is expressing. The state of California was represented by Witzel. The judges of California sided with Witzel, and ultimately dismissed the case of the Hindutvas with prejudice, meaning it can never be appealed again.Soham321 (talk) 14:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Please, relax Soham321. Bayly does not say that there were no castes before the British, does she? Please provide more sources, and help to improve the article, instead of accusing other editors of being Hindutva-sympathisers. If you think Sitush is a Hindutva-sympathiser, I'm one too. Ha! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:54, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Can those who are knowledgeable on this subject & the relevant sources please tell me which sources are really relevant on the history of the jatis? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not accusing anyone of being a Hindutva sympathizer. I am simply saying that the views of those who think that the caste system as we know it today is a creation of the British is also the view of the Hindutvas. Further, the Hindutvas had taken this matter to court in the State of California where the State of California was represented by Prof Michael Witzel of Harvard. The judges of California ruled against the Hindutvas with prejudice, meaning the matter can never be appealed again.Soham321 (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's quite relevant information, so add it to the article. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the number of sources, I count six references for the disputed sentence. It would be wise to split "the disputed info" into two: origins (pre-British), and influence of the British (rigidity). The second part seems to be well-sourced; for the first part sources it must be possible to find sources which describe the pre-British origins of the jati-system. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:27, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, Witzel has been disputed by other Harvard professors such as Edwin Bryant. You have to forget about Witzel.VictoriaGrayson 15:34, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

This is interesting: according to André Béteille, Varna and Jati, Sociological Bulletin Vol. 45, No. 1 (MARCH 1996), pp. 15-27, for two thousand years caste was described as varna, and only recently has it come to be described as jati.

regarding Witzel: Bryant is not sufficient reason to "forget about Witzel". Rather the contrary. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

There are plenty of reasons to forget about Witzel. Witzel did not even know the difference between the dress of Brahmin priests and Muslims.VictoriaGrayson 15:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Just so you know, the only people in the scholarly world who are strongly opposed to Witzel are the Hindutvas. There is a good wikipedia article on Witzel: Michael Witzel. Your claim that he did not know the differene between the dress of brahmin priests and muslims is false. The California textbooks had a wrongly captioned picture, and Witzel agreed that the correct picture should be placed in the textbooks. Regarding Edwin Bryant, Bryant is a Professor at Rutgers and not Harvard as you were claiming earlier. Furthermore, Bryant and Witzel do not seem to be on opposite sides considering Witzel has written a glowing review of Bryant's book "The Quest for the origins of Vedic culture" and further an article of Witzel was included in a book edited by Bryant. Soham321 (talk) 15:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

PLEASE INDENT YOUR COMMENTS, do not continue someone else's comment as your own. I have just indented yours. You show a marked unwillingness to learn the standards of discussion and use them here, this is the third time I've had to ask you to stop doing weird things with your comments. It does not help if we cannot read the page easily.

Now, the issue of the California case is not relevant here, why do you keep bringing up the California case? Ogress _smash! 21:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, Bryant was a professor at Harvard. And he does criticize Witzel's views. And Witzel's views are not relevant to this article anyway.VictoriaGrayson 22:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Shouldn't Jāti and Varna be merged into this article? Same topic, short articles; they can easily be merged. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support - for reasons stated above. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Varna provides the broad theoretical framework of classification and/or stratification system as found in Hindu mythology/scriptures. Jati is often used instead of caste and is the translation of caste in Hindi. Essentially both denote aspects of social stratification system found in Hindus of Indian sub continent. AB 15:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think of Jati and Varna as religious/traditional concepts and "caste system" as sociological/scientific concept. I prefer to keep science and religion separate. We have enough complications already without trying to confuse the two. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

- Disagree on jati, that it is exclusively a religious /traditional concept. Jati is a synonym for caste, or more clearly, Jati was the term used before Europeans named it caste. The traditional/religious nature of jati, varna and caste is also discussed by the WP entry Caste system in India, as former two cant have a separate context devoid of religious/traditional bearings. Maintaining topics varna and jati as exclusively or predominantly religious/traditional concepts, would be to erroneously construct such new entities and hence may fall in WP:OR. AB 17:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The sociologists/scientists call it caste. And, they use terms like jati and varna exclusively to refer to the traditional concepts. If you have read the literature, the distinction is quite clear. - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

So you are relying on my reading of the literature to clarify your point to me?. Sorry but not convincing. AB 11:59, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: These are different concepts and should absolutely not be merged on this page. Also, a merger proposal requires you follow the guidelines for a merger proposal, which you have not done. Ogress _smash! 21:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Please explain why do you claim them as different concepts. Also, why do you say guidelines of merger proposal are not followed? How exactly? AB 01:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The guidelines are at WP:MERGE; I've followed these steps, and copied the templates from this page, when I proposed the merger, so I'm puzzled what makes you think that I didn't follow the guidelines. I've even got a link to that page at my tools-page... Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Varna is based on a social system that was prevalent in the Hindu system. Caste is brought by the Europeans, and is umore based on race than the mindset of people. Varna is based on the mindset of the people, the capabilities of the people, and people can move change varna based on the what they do and how they improve (up/down). Caste more close to Jati, but ofcourse they are not the same. This should not be merged into one.Santoshsivaraj (talk) 01:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

47 Asian Studies scholars had endorsed the views of Harvard's Michael Witzel

Incidentally, here is a relevant extract from the book "Rethinking Hindu Identity" by Dwijendra Nath Jha:Jha. There is a wikipedia biographical article on Jha: D.N. Jha. Notice that Jha uses Witzel as one of his references in his book, Jha is in agreement with Witzel on the caste system, and Jha had also expressed his opinion on the California textbooks case: Have your textbooks been saffronized. This is a relevant extract from the article 'have your textbooks been saffronized':

Days before the curriculum commission was to meet to consider these and other changes, Harvard University’s only tenured Sanskrit professor Michael Witzel received word of the changes about to be made and quickly drafted a letter to the Virginia State Board of Education. He argued, “The proposed revisions are not of a scholarly but of a religious-political nature, and are primarily promoted by Hindutva supporters and non-specialist academics writing about issues far outside their area of expertise.” The letter was endorsed by 47 other Asian-studies scholars, including Sanskrit professor Robert Goldman and renowned Indian historians Romila Thapar and D. N. Jha.The Hindutva won the first round, with the commission accepting almost all of their recommendations. The scholars quickly rebounded, however. At the next meeting, they brought Dalits who explained how the proposed changes hid the violent truth of caste-based discrimination.

Soham321 (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC) And this is the original letter of Witzel, written to the California State board of education, which has four dozen co-signatories: Michael Witzel original letter Soham321 (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Incidentally, Witzel seems to have been involved in a running feud with those who seek to "rewrite" Indian history in accordance with the Hindutva view of Indian history. Here is a relevant Witzel quote in this connection:

Most scholars, after checking some of the "facts" presented in the book, would simply put it aside laughing or would shake their head and regard the principal author as one more, albeit blatant, example among the currently growing guild of fervent rewriters of history. The book, by its very improbability, further taints the present wave of revisionist writing (S.S. Misra, S. Talageri, K.D. Sethna, S.P. Gupta, Bh. Singh, M. Shendge, Bh. Gidwani, P. Choudhuri, A. Shourie, S.R. Goel, and their expatriate or foreign fellow travellers such as S. Kak, S. Kalyanaraman, D. Frawley, G. Feuerstein, K. Elst, K. Klostermaier).

You really do need to drop this now, Soham. Please read WP:TE - you are boring the socks off everyone and swamping this page with irrelevancies. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Earlier you were arguing that Witzel should not be taken seriously. Now that i have shown that 47 Asian Studies scholars have endorsed the views of Witzel, you are saying i am boring you. Soham321 (talk) 18:36, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Really? Where did I say that? It looks like you are yet again making things up. - Sitush (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Here is the relevant diff: Sitush says Michael Witzel need not be taken seriously. Soham321 (talk) 19:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Another relevant article which shows how controversial this issue is Hindutva and Witzel :

More controversial were proposed revisions stating that women had “different” rights than men and seeking to dissociate the caste system from Hinduism.

Soham321 (talk) 19:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The California textbook controversy has no relevance. There is a difference between caste and caste system.VictoriaGrayson 21:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Victoria, Aren't you the same person who was questioning the credibility and scholarship of Michael Witzel when i first put forth his views? Are you going to remain silent on the fact that 47 Asian Studies scholars endorsed his views on the caste system in India (among other issues)? Soham321 (talk) 21:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You don't understand the difference between caste and caste system. Witzel's views have nothing to do with this article.VictoriaGrayson 21:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I also question the relevance of Michael Witzel's discussion of the California case. You can object to a scholar's work being irrelevant because it's not on topic, you know. Ogress _smash! 22:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Prior to the revelation that 47 Asian Studies scholars have endorsed the views of Witzel, Victoria was specifically questioning the scholarship and credibility of Witzel (and not questioning the relevance of Witzel's views to this article as is now Victoria's position ). For evidence of this, see diff1 and diff2.Soham321 (talk) 22:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, please do not jam your replies onto my reply, it makes things hard to read. Okay, so she doesn't like Witzel. That doesn't change that Witzel is not relevant here. Do you think Sitush is biased against Witzel? I actually really like Witzel, I have many of his papers. His comments on the California case remain irrelevant. Ogress _smash! 01:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

This is an extract from an interview of Witzel pertaining to the California textbooks case:

I believe your panel had objections about the corrections relating to the caste system. :It is always complicated. First of all, the textbooks authors had confused caste and class although that has been corrected. But they say the caste system developed in the last few centuries or so. But the fact that the caste system was there before the British came to rule India is denied by them.To come back to our point, what they are doing is misrepresentation of both history and religion.

Witzel interview Soham321 (talk) 02:00, 20 June 2015 (UTC)And here is Witzel writing again on the California textbooks case and the caste system in India:

Not only were the suggested revisions of the textbooks factually incorrect in many instances but there was also an attempt to explain away those aspects of traditional Indian society that are now a matter of critical concern to Indians in India. The textbook revisions whitewash the plight of women and the so called lower castes. Their history was reduced to "different" rights and education for women while the caste system was simply a division of labor.

Witzel article Soham321 (talk) 02:16, 20 June 2015 (UTC)In an email on a publicly viewable mailing list, Prof Witzel described the victory, in California court, over the Hindutvas who were seeking to distort, among other things, the Indian caste system in California textbooks. Witzel gives an extract from the court judgement:

The caste system is a historical reality, and indisputably was a significant feature of ancient Indian society...it appears to the Court that to omit treatment of the caste system from the teaching of ancient Indian history would itself be grossly inaccurate.

Witzel email Soham321 (talk) 03:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, we are using sources by Ivy League scholars and books published by university publishing houses. You keep bringing up irrelevant stuff.VictoriaGrayson 03:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Zwart source and the role of British colonial regime

I have been reading this dispute about the lead language and Zwart here since yesterday. Out of concern that Zwart and other sources are being cherry picked and misrepresented by editor "AB", "Sohan321" etc., here are some comments from someone whose field is sociology (sorry, I am new to wikipedia; apologies if this is not the correct place or procedure to submit such comments):

On pp. 237-240, Zwart reviews many of the respected figures on social stratification. He cites Dumont, Cohn, Fuller, Dirks, Ludden, Inden, Mandelbaum, Srinivas, Weber, Merton, Quigley, Burman, and many more throughout his review. A careful read of all pages justifies the line in Zwart's abstract, "Caste used to be thought of as an ancient fact of Hindu life, but contemporary scholars argue that the caste system was constructed by the British colonial regime".

On p. 237, he explains how the colonial policy, administration and law were instrumental in fashioning caste and caste identity in India. Zwart writes in column 1 of p. 237, "Postmodern scholars see the caste system not as an ancient given, but as a construction that originates largely in British times." In column 2, he writes, "The colonial Census Officers - misled by 19th century orientalist discourse and their upper caste informants - wrongly considered caste and caste hierarchy to be the basic social facts of Hindu life".

The thesis of contemporary scholars, and summarized in the Zwart's review, is that the British colonial regime had a major role in structuring the caste system in India, because "jobs and education opportunities were allotted based on caste, and people rallied and adopted a caste system that maximized their opportunity". He then goes on to summarize that post-colonial affirmative action only reinforced the "British colonial project that ex hypothesi constructed the caste system".

Editor "AB"'s makes the claim, "I am stating is that, Zwart himself doesn't state 'British colonial administration constructed caste systems' in conclusive manner, because that is not the intention of the whole article." - above @ 19:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Editor "AB"'s claim is a misrepresentation of Zwart's review. Zwart does summarize numerous contemporary scholars in a conclusive manner.

Paulmuniz (talk) 20:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree.VictoriaGrayson 03:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's a qoute from Nicholas B. Dirks (), Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India, Introduction: The Modernity of Caste:

"This book will address this question by suggesting that caste, as we know it today, is not in fact some unchanged survival of ancient India, not some single system that reflects a core civilizational value, not a basic expression of Indian tradition. Rather, I will argue that caste (again, as we know it today) is a modern phenomenon, that it is, specifically, the product of an historical encounter between India and Western colonial rule. By this I do not mean to imply that it was simply invented by the too clever British, now credited with so many imperial patents that what began as colonial critique has turned into another form of imperial adulation. But I am suggesting that it was under the British that "caste" became a single term capable of expressing, organizing, and above all "systematizing" India's diverse forms of social identity, community, and organization. This was achieved through an identifiable (if contested) ideological canon as the result of a concrete encounter with colonial modernity during two hundred years of British domination. In short, colonialism made caste what it is today. It produced the conditions that made possible the opening lines of this book, by making caste the central symbol of Indian society. And it did its work well; as Nehru was powerfully aware, there is now no simple way of wishing it away, no easy way to imagine social forms that would transcend the languages of caste that have become so inscribed in ritual, familial, communal, socioeconomic, political, and public theaters of quotidian life."

So, the caste sustem was not "invented" by the British, but "colonialism made caste what it is today." Can we channel some of the energy invested in this talkpage to the reading of sources and the improvement of the article? Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:01, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

JJ quite agree. Most of the references cited here boils down to 'Castes of Mind',1992 by NB Dirks. Here is a quote from AO DeNicola's review of Dirks.

In the introductory section he sets up his major claim as well as the confines of his critique. In short, he argues that caste is a politically modern construction that served to categorize and delimit previously more fluid social organization throughout India. While he does not argue that cast was a British construction, he does maintain that British colonialism "made caste what it is today."

Unless Zwart does not have any other citation from what he mentions as 'contemporary scholars' where in which such scholars conclusively says 'Colonialism constructed castes' Dirks' view ( from reviews of Dirks,1992) has to be reflected in the article. (In my opinion, pending a detailed discussion on Dirks, such a significant view, unless undisputed or widely held, has very less scope in the lead of the article.) AB 05:28, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that that is not what Zwart says; his sentence "is thought of" is simply ambiguous, and may be read in various ways. It seems that most of us around here can agree that the varnas and jatis have pre-modern origins, that the caste-system became more important during the British occupation (though, surprisingly, dveleopments toward that system had already started before), and that the whole system is still, or again, changing due to contemporary developments. As usually with Indian topics, it's complex and fascinating! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Post-Mughal period

See Caste system in India#Post-Mughal period. What Bayly describes here fits in with other descriptions of the influence of the Brahmanas on the British colonial system. It also fits in with the development of "neo-Vedanta" as a 'neo-traditional' response to colonialism, harking back (is that correct English?) to Indian traditions, yet itself also a thoroughly modern "grand narrative." The Brahmanas were an important source of information for the British, thereby also being elevated themselves as a social group. See Sweetman, Hinduism#cite_note-55. And the socalled "neo-Vedanta" betrays the influence of Brahmana-views on religiosity, but also reflects an intellectual-religious search for common denominators in Indian religiosity which was well underway already since the start of Muslim-rule. Also note the status of asceticism in modern notions of Hinduism; Yoga seems to be the defining characteristic of Hinduism, which, of course, "on the ground," is not "true." Am I correct here, Vic? I remember that you once commented that Advaita Vedanta is irrelevant to most people in India. Or was it someone else who wrote that?
Anyway, fascinating to see how the developments in the caste-system fit in with other developments; the "bigger picture" gets even bigger. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Here is a quote comparing Bayly and Dirks as found in Flesh and Fish Blood: Postcolonialism, Translation, and the Vernacular By S. Shankar

"Bayly declares that her aim is “to show that caste as we now recognize it has been engendered, shaped and perpetuated by comparatively recent political and social developments,” specifically identifying the post-Mughal eighteenth century as a key transitional moment (1999, 4); and Dirks declares, “Caste (again as we know it today) is a modern phenomenon” (2000a, 5). As their language reveals (both are careful to note their subject is caste “now”), neither Bayly nor Dirks denies the existence of caste in premodern times; however, theyemphasize the relatively recent origins of what Bayly calls “caste-centred India” (65)."

Further, on the differences between Bayly and Dirks

" Despite these similarities in their arguments, Bayly and Dirks crucially disagree regarding the role played by colonialism in the constitution of caste systems. Briefly put, Bayly dates the modern origins of the caste system to the eighteenth century, the period of transition from Mughal rule to colonial British rule, whereas Dirks emphasizes the effect of British colonialism. Bayly acknowledges the role played by the British in consolidating and deepening the impact of caste hierarchies and differences through the regulatory and enumerating mechanisms (such as the decennial census) of colonial rule; however, she locates the actual origins of the modern system of caste to a period before colonialism,emphasizes the extent to which Indians were themselves fashioners of the caste system as it exists now, and generally advances the notion that British rule was only one element in a complicated process of re-caste-ing India."

Clearly Bayly's view contradicts Dirks' as to colonialism constructed caste as it is now. AB 06:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Contradicts, or supplements? Anyway, both are relevant, and worth to mention in the article. The aim is to provide an overview of relevant information, not to draw conclusions (though, of course, we have to apply our best judgement, and try to sort out what is relevant and what not). Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:46, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Contradicts, with regard to the question of when the process started, but supplements - to a huge extent, both being post colonial scholarship - on the general theme (the postulate of caste system formulation/becoming rigid as it exists today). Still I think that is an avoidable reference in the lead. What I mean is that, it can be mistaken for the development of the caste system altogether. Further, I doubt why there has to be a particular insistence on origin/development of caste system ( be it in post-Mughal or colonial) becoming a rigid system, before understanding or mentioning what is meant by the connotation of 'rigid system' in the context of caste? Does it imply hierarchy? Does it imply bar on intermixing? Again it leads to another doubt, what is meant by ' caste as it is today' ? Should not we address both the concerns ( 'caste as a rigid system' and 'cast as it is today') before we discuss (mention in the lead of the article) what caused caste as a rigid system (as it is today?). AB 09:05, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

PS: Meanwhile, working on the sources for crucial missing information in the article, such as hierarchy, exclusion etc. AB 09:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Caste system in India in the 8th century

Adi Shankara was a highly respected Hindu philosopher in the 8th century AD. His wikipedia page shows that he is held in high respect even today in India. (Most Hindus do not know about his views on the caste system, and his wikipedia page also does not make any mention of it.) This is what Shankara tells us about the status of the low caste Sudras in Indian society existing in his time:

And on account of the prohibition, in Smriti, of (the Sûdras') hearing and studying (the Veda) and (knowing and performing) (Vedic) matters.The Sûdras are not qualified for that reason also that Smriti prohibits their hearing the Veda, their studying the Veda, and their understanding and performing Vedic matters. The prohibition of hearing the Veda is conveyed by the following passages: 'The ears of him who hears the Veda are to be filled with (molten) lead and lac,' and 'For a Sûdra is (like) a cemetery, therefore (the Veda) is not to be read in the vicinity of a Sûdra.' From this latter passage the prohibition of studying the Veda results at once; for how should he study Scripture in whose vicinity it is not even to be read? There is, moreover, an express prohibition (of the Sûdras studying the Veda). 'His tongue is to be slit if he pronounces it; his body is to be cut through if he preserves it.' The prohibitions of hearing and studying the Veda already imply the prohibition of the knowledge and performance of Vedic matters; there are, however, express prohibitions also, such as 'he is not to impart knowledge to the Sûdra,' and 'to the twice-born belong study, sacrifice, and the bestowal of gifts.'--From those Sûdras, however, who, like Vidura and 'the religious hunter,' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be withheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit. Smriti, moreover, declares that all the four castes are qualified for acquiring the knowledge of the itihâsas and purânas; compare the passage, 'He is to teach the four castes' (Mahâbh.).--It remains, however, a settled point that they do not possess any such qualification with regard to the Veda.

The text is from George Thibaut's translation of Adi Shankara's magnum opus, his commentary to the Vedanta Sutras. The Vedanta Sutras are also known as Brahma Sutras. Adi Shankara is telling us that the low caste sudras are not permitted to read or know about the Vedas under penalty of death and torture. This is a primary source; it should not be difficult to look up secondary sources on the subject. The term "twice born" used by Adi Shankara is a reference to the Upanayana ceremony which in Adi Shankara's time was restricted to the three upper castes with sudras (the lowest caste) being denied the privilege of participating in this ceremony. Soham321 (talk) 10:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC) The sanskrit word for "twice born" is dvija. Soham321 (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2015 (UTC). And these are some quotes from the Manu Smriti. These quotes need to be read together with Adi Shankara's commentary on the Vedanta sutra since Shankara gives quotations from Manu Smriti and declares the Manu Smriti to be an authoritative text. Again, this is a primary source. I am requesting others to join me in finding appropriate secondary sources. From the Manu Smriti(translator: Georg Buhler):

A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.If he mentions the names and castes (gati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth.If he arrogantly teaches Brahmanas their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears....With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three) highest (castes), even that limb shall be cut off; that is the teaching of Manu. He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off; he who in anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off. A low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and be banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed. If out of arrogance he spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus. If he lays hold of the hair (of a superior), let the (king) unhesitatingly cut off his hands, likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the beard, the neck, or the scrotum....(The king) should order a Vaisya to trade, to lend money, to cultivate the land, or to tend cattle, and a Sudra to serve the twice-born castes.(Some wealthy) Brahmana shall compassionately support both a Kshatriya and a Vaisya, if they are distressed for a livelihood, employing them on work (which is suitable for) their (castes). But a Brahmana who, because he is powerful, out of greed makes initiated (men of the) twice-born (castes) against their will do the work of slaves, shall be fined by the king six hundred (panas). But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmana. A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it? A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions.(The king) should carefully compel Vaisyas and Sudra to perform the work (prescribed) for them; for if these two (castes) swerved from their duties, they would throw this (whole) world into confusion.

Soham321 (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC) And let me now quote from the Vishnu Smriti, which like the Manu Smriti is a hindu dharmasastra. Recall that Adi Shankara had made a reference to "Smriti" in the quote given earlier in this section, by which term Shankara was referring to the Hindu dharmashastras like the Manu Smriti and Vishnu Smriti. Here is an extract from the Vishnu Smriti, the translator being Julius Jolly:

With whatever limb an inferior insults or hurts his superior in caste, of that limb the king shall cause him to be deprived.If he places himself on the same seat with his superior, he shall be banished with a mark on his buttocks. he shall lose both lips; If he spits on him,If he breaks wind against him, his hindparts;If he uses abusive language, his tongue. If a (low-born) man through pride give instruction (to a member of the highest caste) concerning his duty, let the king order hot oil to be dropped into his mouth. If a (low-born man) mentions the name or caste of a superior revilingly, an iron pin, ten inches long, shall be thrust into his mouth (red hot).

I would like to appeal to participants in this talk page to join me in digging up the relevant secondary sources.Soham321 (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Soham321, did you look for the book mentioned below, Caste and Race in India? It contains interpretation from a lot of Hindu scriptures. Please have a look on other works of G S Ghurye as well, which are available in internet. Will dig more sources and add soon. AB 15:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I just skimmed through it. Seems to be a good book. Will study it in more detail. We should also try to find more references reflecting mainstream scholarly opinion on the caste system. Soham321 (talk) 15:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Another extract from Vishnu Smriti:

If a man has several wives of his own caste,he shall perform his religious duties together with the eldest (or first-married) wife.(If he has several) wives of divers castes (he shall perform them) even with the youngest wife if she is of the same caste as himself.On failure of a wife of his own caste (he shall perform them) with one belonging to the caste next below his own; so also in cases of distress (i.e. when the wife who is equal in caste to him happens to be absent, or when she has met with a calamity);But no twice-born man ever with a Sûdra wife.A union of a twice-born man with a Sûdra wife can never produce religious merit; it is from carnal desire only that he marries her, being blinded by lust.Men of the three first castes, who through folly marry a woman of the lowest caste, quickly degrade their families and progeny to the state of Sûdras. If his oblations to the gods and manes and (his hospitable attentions) to guests are offered principally through her hands, the gods and manes (and the guests) will not eat such offerings, and he will not go to heaven.

Soham321 (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Once again you are citing primary sources. Misplaced Pages only reports the contemporary scholars' interpretation of primary sources. Your interpretation of them constitutes original research. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages only reports the contemporary scholars..." Please provide a link to the policy you are referring, relevant to the quote. AB 10:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:PRIMARY. The point being made by Soham321 is clear; yet, Shankara interprets an ancient Vedic text, which may, or may not reflect, the social reality of those Vedic times. If we want to know if this text describes the actual situation at that time, or what Shankara's interpretation says about Shankara's time, we do indeed need reliable secondary sources. I've read several times already that the texts on the varnas probably described ideal-types, not the actual social facts. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:50, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, but I was asking to Kautilya3 whether is there a specific policy as reagrds to WP only reports the contemporary scholars?

Yes, may be they (texts on the varnas) only describes ideal types or they may not be. The best thing we could do is to quote reliable secondary source(s) irrespective of whether it rhymes with or de-credits the primary source. Fundamental thing for us editors would be to look for the reliability of source, but not on the content discussed, according to WP:RS ?? AB 13:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Sources

Historical existence/evolution of castes

1.History of Humanity: From the seventh century B.C. to the seventh century A.D., edited by Sigfried J. de Laet, Joachim Herrmann; UNESCO, 1996

• While talking about sense of community among Budhist and Jainas, about 2 century BCE "..The sense of community among the Buddhists and the Jainas by not only in the interdependence of the monk and the by follower, but also in the fact thar the communimty cut across caste identities and in theory at least the Sangha was open to members of any caste. This was in contrast to the brahmanical conception of society as segmented into relatively independent castes where the sense of cornmunity was limited to each caste and even religious sects tended to remain close to caste contours. " p362

• "Peninsular India passed through an interesting period of transition between . c. AD 300 and 700. that is. from the decline of the Satavahan to the rise of strong regional kingdoms This period is also one of transition from a predominantly pastoral and trading economy to an agrarian economy associated with the emphasis on land grants and the emergence of a new socio political order marked by small regional and sub-regional polities under monarchical and chiefly rule, supported by a brahmana class standing at the apex of a social hierarchy based on caste."p392

• "Although some kinds or caste system already existed in India long before the time of the Guptas, the system was greatly elaborated with the appearance of numerous sub- castes recorded in the law-books. Each group of foreigners was assimilated into Hindu society as a caste and, if they were conquerors, they were generally given the status of ksatriyas. The Hurts who invaded India around the beginning of the fifth century ultimately came to be recognized as among the high castes. In addition some tribal peoples in some parts of the subcontinent were gradually absorbed into Hindu society by being assigned a Particular subcaste. In this respect the caste system, usually regarded as a restrictive factor, had important positive effects as it enabled foreigners and tribals to obtain a place in normal society." p387

• On forest dwellers getting assimilated to caste system "Forest- dwellers were of course found in many parts of the subcontinent and were gradually assimilated into caste society as agriculture encroached into the forests. This makes the continuum from tribe to caste, from Jana to Jati. a constant historical process. Associated with this is the change from non-state systems to monarchical states." p42 AB 11:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

2.Caste and Race in India, Govind Sadashiv Ghurye,Popular Prakashan,1969 Link to googlebooks.

"I HAVE here sought to give a picture ot Hindu caste society as it was functioning before modern ideas affected its course, We have now to see how it came to be what it was. For the convenience of such historical treatment I propose to break up the history ot India into four periods. First, the Vedic period ending about B.c. 600 and comp rrisnn? the 1iterary data ot the Vedic Samhitas and the Brdhmanas; second, the post-Vedic period, extending to about the third century of the Christian era. In this period we have three types of literature which shed light on this subject. The sacred’ laws of the Aryans present the orthodox and the more or less idealistic standpoint while the epics testify to the contemporary practices. Buddhist literature, on the other hand, gives a glimpse of the instititution as it appeared to those who rebelled against it and in part provides us with a natural picture of some aspects of caste. The third period may be styled the period of the Dharma-shdstras and ends with the tenth or eleventh century &i. Manu, Yajnavalkya and Vishnu are the chief exponents of the social ideals of this age. The fourth period may, with propriety, be called the modern period, and it brings us down to the beginning of the nineteenth century." p43

The book, through pages 43 to p112 traces in detail the transformation in caste in detail. Two chapters of caste through ages is devoted by Ghurye for this purpose. It is properly cited and referenced. Well, one can have dispute as to the content of the book but one cannot deny it existence and deserves a place in the article.

AB 11:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

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