Revision as of 01:19, 27 June 2015 editDoc James (talk | contribs)Administrators312,255 edits →Statement by User:Doc James: corrected self← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:29, 27 June 2015 edit undoAtsme (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers42,803 edits →Statement by Atsme: cmt to DJNext edit → | ||
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*Article is PP by NeilN Which should have been the initial action imposed by Callanecc instead of the block he imposed on me, clearly resulting from his past biases and ongoing double standards. | *Article is PP by NeilN Which should have been the initial action imposed by Callanecc instead of the block he imposed on me, clearly resulting from his past biases and ongoing double standards. | ||
====Response to Doc James==== | |||
A wise admin and former ARBCOM member {{u|Someguy1221}} explained Verifiability well: ''"In an encyclopedia built by volunteers, in which no real vetting of an individual's expert status is feasible, this policy simplifies discussion greatly. Instead of relying on debate over the validity of a fact or viewpoint, the debate focuses on the easier to tackle issue of whether it is verifiable. Even if experts could be vetted, this philosophy is still preferable. Allowing experts to run the show would merely invite them to introduce their personal biases into articles."'' | |||
With the latter in mind, I can't help but consider the following with reference to MEDRS when Doc James stated: "This guidelines is malleable to accommodate poorly studied areas such as this one." . The poorly studied area being kombucha, and the questioned source being a low quality, single author, 13 yr. old systematic journal review that Doc James green lighted for citing unsupported scientific claims of potential causality based on the poor reporting of a very small group of anecdotal case reports. No, this appeal isn't about my misunderstanding of MEDRS as Doc James is trying to make it appear - it's about my refusal to accept his suggestion that MEDRS guidelines are malleable. My first obligation when writing any article is to maintain compliance with NPOV, Verifiability, and NOR, and in the case of health and/or food articles, to ''strictly adhere'' to MEDRS which clearly conflicts with malleable, particularly when citing material regarding human health. I remember how, 2 mos ago, I was castigated by certain members of Proj Med for once referring to MEDRS as a guideline, not a policy, when writing my first essay. The words, "strict adherence", were tattooed on my posterior. A group of Proj Med editors immediately requested the essays deletion, partly because they felt it didn't show enough respect for MEDRS when I wrote "follow" MEDRS guidelines instead of treating it more like policy with strict adherence. The new essay ] now reads "requires close attention" but based on current events, I should probably update it to read, MEDRS, the malleable guideline. And the irony - here I am now appealing a block for having respected MEDRS. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 03:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
===Statement by Callanecc === | ===Statement by Callanecc === |
Revision as of 03:29, 27 June 2015
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A Quest For Knowledge
A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs) is topic-banned from Anthony Watts (blogger) and Climate change denial anywhere on Misplaced Pages, broadly construed, until September 16, 2015. - Penwhale | 23:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning A Quest For Knowledge
Watts Up With That - a blog which promotes fringe views on climate science - recently canvassing their readers to "correct" our coverage. Since then, we've been having a tough time handling the increased attention and fervor, and consensus building has been turbulent. I requested page protection to facilitate discussion, but we kept hitting the same walls, so JzG created an RfC to address a recurring issue. Unfortunately, A Quest For Knowledge has been disrupting the RfC and other methods of consensus building, which has made our task considerably harder. He has repeatedly inserted his opinions into the RfC question, suggesting that responding is a waste of time, and all but one of the options contravene policy, making the RfC's summary markedly non-neutral. In two cases, he added his opinions in the middle of JzG's comment, which mixed up attribution of JzG's words and the origin of the RfC. My first effort was to move his comment to the discussion section, but he reverted me, and approaching him on his talk page hasn't helped. While the RfC's wording may not be perfect, it was obviously a good faith effort to aid discussion and build consensus, and the structured format has helped us tease out a few suggestions already. AQFK's edits are clearly an effort to stop discussion and collaboration, which has not been helpful in an already terse environment. AQFK has also been edit warring on the article for a considerable time. He is not the only one, but his history is extensive, and his reverts are often not coupled with substantive discussion. The following diffs are all removing the same sourced content from the article: June 1, May 30, May 29, May 26, May 23, May 23, May 22, May 12, May 10, May 10, May 10, May 7, May 7, May 6, May 3, May 3, April 30, April 29, April 27, April 21, April 21, April 20
AQFK was previously topic banned from climate change by arbcom in 2010. The ban was lifted in 2012. The topic is subject to discretionary sanctions, and I'm asking that they be applied (in whatever form is deemed necessary) to prevent further disruption. — Jess· Δ♥ 05:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#A Quest For Knowledge's battlefield conduct and this DS notice on May 3rd
Discussion concerning A Quest For KnowledgeStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by A Quest For KnowledgeThe problem with the RfC as currently written is that it presents a false trichotomy. According to WP:WTW, the contentious terms such as "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. So, the key question is, what do the majority of reliable sources say? In order to answer this question, I examined a random sampling of 10 reliable sources (including peer-reviewed journals), the vast majority used the term "skeptic" (as randomly selected by Google):
These were the first 10 reliable sources randomly selected by Google. Based on these results, sources refer to Watts or his blog as:
I also performed a random sampling (as selected by Google) of sources not behind a paywall in Google Scholar, and here are the results:
Google Scholar Totals:
Based on two completely different random samplings of reliable sources, it seems pretty apparent that the overwhelming majority of sources don't use the term "denier". In fact, the total number approaches zero, let alone a wide majority. Unfortunately, the RfC as written presents 3 options, all of which require that we violate Misplaced Pages's rules, on a WP:BLP no less. Other options are completely omitted from the RfC. For example, another editor presented a compromise which both Jess and I liked yet it was completely omitted from the RfC. Why was this omitted from the RfC? Imagine an election where major opposition candidates are left off the ballot. Would such an election be considered legitimate? I'm not against an RfC - quite the contrary - RfCs are a wonderful way to judge consensus. An RfC which presents a false trichotomy while ignoring actual legimate options isn't going to solve anything. I've been on Misplaced Pages for 6 years and have tens of thousands of edits. I have as much right to point out that an RfC is flawed as anyone. The idea that an editor should be sanctioned for pointing out that a flawed RfC is flawed is absurd. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:50, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by GuerilleroI have no horse in this race, I just formatted Jess's request in the format that AE likes --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 07:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by UbikwitThis is an issue that needs attention. AQFK has been tendentiously ignoring WP:CONSENSUS and making repeated recourse to WP:WTW, for example, ignoring the numerous comments on the Talk page refuting the attempt. I was not aware that the article was under a 1rr restriction, either. Perhaps someone should post a banner or the like on the page.--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 04:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Query What is the reason for the delay in handling this complaint?--Ubikwit見学/迷惑 15:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by JzGI have to say that AQFK's approach seems to me to be unhelpful. AQFK states as fact that an RfC cannot possibly succeed because of WTW, even though it includes nothing more skeptical than the result of the previous RfC, and numerous good-faith comments by long-time Wikipedians have already accepted that the question is valid. It is fine to dispute the question put in an RfC. It is not fine to insist on stating as fact that the question is invalid, when that is just an opinion, and is rejected by most others commenting. AQFK also repeatedly removes a statement which is sourced and attributed to a well-known authority, citing BLP, despite, again, numerous long-time Wikipedians arguing in good faith that this is not a violation since it si high profile, sourced and attributed. Overall the impression is that PAG are being used not as a guide to good practice, but as a magic talisman to wave away opinions for which the editor very obviously harbours a visceral hatred. And AQFK comes across as a Warrior for Truth™, where Truth equates to a philosophical view divorced from scientifically established reality. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 2 June 2015 (UTC) @Sphilbrick I am not sure what you're implying re. Mann jess, I would have thought that the involvement of experienced editors new to the article would be highly desirable, given the history of entrenched views and fights between the usual suspects on these articles. Guy (Help!) 09:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tony SidawayAs indicated in the request, this is an editor with a history of egregious disruption in this topic. The topic ban was lifted on the basis that the topic was under a sanctions process and the editor had kept their nose clean for a good while. And so we're back here. On the face of it, the editor has returned to their disruptive ways and is now interfering with serious consensus-building attempts. It seems reasonable to me to consider once again an indefinite topic ban. --TS 11:04, 2 June 2015 (UTC) Are we going to allow a former topic banned policy violator to argue that their latest serious violation is justified by some content argument, related in some vague way to the BLP policy? That's the same question arbcom faced in 2010, when A Quest For Knowledge used the same argument in defence of their disruptive conduct at that time. Why would we assume that they've learned from their mistakes if they pull the same silly stunt _five years later_? --TS 22:56, 4 June 2015 (UTC) Comment by Robert McClenonI was not involved in this particular controversy, but have a comment. I was involved in a Request for Comments where one of the parties to the conflict protested the RFC vociferously. That sort of behavior is very disruptive, especially because an RFC is often the last option of resolving a content dispute before going to conduct dispute resolution. Also, inserting one's own comments in the middle of another editor's comments, even if meant in good faith, is problematic because it is very likely to cause other editors to mistake who is saying what. Aside from the more general matter of whether the subject editor is POV-pushing or personalizing the dispute (and I haven't researched that), disrupting an RFC is a conduct issue that complicates the resolution of content issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:01, 2 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Sphilbrick
Statement by JBLThere is a long-term content/wording-based edit war going on about how to describe Anthony Watts (blogger) and his blog, and particularly about the use of various forms of the word "deny." AQFK is very involved in this dispute (as are Mann jess and I). Probably this will only be resolved when sanctions are placed on a large enough fraction of denialist editors that normal editing can continue. In this context, most of AQFK's behavior has been consistent with the battleground approach being taken by editors on both sides, but the disruptive edits to the RFC are I think notable for their inappropriateness. --JBL (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MONGOI cannot say whether or not AQFK has or has not acted inappropriately as far as edit warring and disruption, or whether others have in this matter. My take on the blog is that it posts guest speakers that are at least skeptical if not openly in denial of AGW. The lack of sturdy science in the blog which agrees with the scientific consensus that AGW is fact is alarming...so I would not consider the blog to be a reliable source. In one post on the blog, apparently written by Watts, he states in essence that he agrees with the scientific concensus that the planet is warming and that some of this warming is caused by us. He did not elaborate on how much is caused by what source. Watts then proclaims he considers himself a skeptic and scoffs at being labelled a denier. He also seems to be calling on his readers to correct this information. I do not know if AQFK saw this and is trying to help, but I doubt it. I won't link to the blog post as it makes a personal attack against one of our editors. Anyway, my take is that Watts opinion of himself, though it is a primary source, is important since this is a BLP issue. The parties need to work towards a consensus about incorporating Watts's proclamation and also listing what reputable scientists say. I suggested the source by an antagonist of Watts (Mann) be kept out since other scientific viewpoints of similarity could be used instead.--MONGO 21:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Peter GulutzanMann jess's accusation should be dismissed. Re JzG's RFC: I also complained it was not neutral and warned that JzG says people who don't call WUWT a denial blog are "idiots", Mann jess says about A Quest For Knowledge "he reverted me" but actually three different editors reverted. Re the diffs: Mann jess says this is about the Watts Up With That article but actually the diffs are from the Anthony Watts (blogger) article, a BLP, which did not have a recent influx of new editors or perturbation caused by Watts's blog post. On Anthony Watts (blogger), by my count five different editors have reverted the addition of the quote in the lead saying Watts's blog is a denial blog, with oft-expressed concerns on the talk page about WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. There are more editors re-inserting (I counted eight), but that is not a consensus and A Quest For Knowledge deserves a defender-of-wiki barnstar. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Update: I believe one would get a better view of academic and mainstream-media reliable sources (plus Watts himself) saying skeptic by looking at an older version of the Anthony Watts (blogger) page here, and looking at the five citations after the sentence "Watts has expressed a skeptical view of anthropogenic CO2-driven global warming" then the ten citations after the sentence "The blog is focused on the global warming controversy, in particular, Watts skepticism about the role of humans in global warming." I point to an older version because Mann jess destroyed those sentences. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by EvergreenFirI followed the Anthony Watts page for a bit, but honestly got tired of it and unwatched it. I'm disappointed to see that the exact same thing I saw weeks ago is still occurring. Without commenting on the content itself, AQFK's actions seem quite inappropriate and battleground. Especially so for the RFC comments. I opened the diffs, closed them, and reopened them thinking I had accidently opened the same one over and over... the fact that I hadn't and that the same comment was essentially spammed is what prompted me to comment now. Given the past sanctions but otherwise good behavior (unless someone knows of similar disruption related to AGW outside of this recent event), perhaps a short reinstatement of the topic ban (e.g., 4 months) would be appropriate. It would provide cooling off time as well as time to demonstrate intent to cease disruption. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Cas LiberIf a person is perverting the use of or misrepresenting sources according to our sourcing guidelines, that is a much more difficult and time-consuming problem to deal with than incivility and filibustering and undermines wikipedia's credibility as an encyclopedia...and should be dealt with accordingly. has someone done that here yet? I've only just scanned this page but reams of talkpage notes I haven;t had time to read. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by (Arzel)AQFK actions have been no worse than those that would complain against him. In particular the statement by JBL is extremely troubling. "Probably this will only be resolved when sanctions are placed on a large enough fraction of denialist editors that normal editing can continue." - JBL How is that not a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality? And it is right here in the this complaint! Not to mention calling all of us that disagree with him "denialists" Simply put, there will never be compromise with attitudes like that, and I doubt that opinion is limited to JBL. Arzel (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Short Brigade Harvester BorisThe admins here are experienced enough to see past some of the "But so did he!" stuff above. (I agree with the substance of Arzel's complaint though not with the way he has put it.) Any misbehavior by others can be dealt with separately. This leaves us with AQFK's disruptive conduct as outlined in User:Mann_jess's diffs. AQFK has a right to object to what they regard as an ill-formulated RFC but does not have the right to do so disruptively. Having previously been sanctioned at WP:ARBCC means that AQFK is fully aware that this is a contentious topic area and that they should be even more careful than usual. I do not think AQFK is a "bad" editor but for whatever reason climate change is a hot-button issue for them. There's no indication of troublesome behavior outside of climate change -- which reinforces both the argument that AQFK is basically a valuable editor and the conclusion that climate change is a topic they should stay away from, whether by choice or otherwise. It appears that the original topic ban needs to be reinstated but I see no need at all for other sanctions. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by ManulAQFK continues to misunderstand and/or misrepresent scholarly articles on climate change. One needn't look further than the first scholarly article AQFK cites in order to see the competence issue. This is not a question of content but of competence, of whether AFQK is able to understand the plain meaning of a source. That article says the exact opposite of what AQFK thinks it says: it actually equates "climate skepticism" and "climate denial" in the context of WUWT, as exhaustively explained here. Yet AQFK did not understand their mistake then and despite repeated corrections over the course of months AFQK continues making the same mistake, up to this very AE request. This kind of tendentious behavior is time-wasting for all those involved. This is not a battleground between opposing factions, nor is it a content dispute between equal sides. Rather, there are simply problematic individuals who misapprehend the scientific literature and the scientific consensus. While Misplaced Pages should describe fringe views accurately and fairly, Misplaced Pages ultimately aims to reflect consensus science. To portray the scientific consensus on climate change as anything other than settled is to violate Misplaced Pages policies, in particular WP:PSCI. AQFK has consistently and tendentiously violated this policy by attempting to portray a climate denialism blog as practicing legitimate scientific skepticism, a view that goes against every scholarly source that substantively addresses the blog in question. AFQK makes tendentious arguments by searching for "skepticism" without apprehending the content or context of sources (in particular, not understanding or being concerned with the demarcation sources make between scientific skepticism and the word "skepticism" in the context of the specific blog in question). Discretionary sanctions exist, at least in part, because certain topic areas attract entrenched individuals whose editing is not in line with Misplaced Pages's policies and goals. It is not clear why AQFK's topic ban on climate change was lifted, but it should be clear now that the topic ban needs to be reinstated, and for an indefinite duration. Manul ~ talk 03:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by NewsAndEventsGuyWikilawyering disruption in part by AQFK drove me from the article in April. He's still at it in this action.For his main "defense", AQFK offered a blatantly wrong reading of WP:Words to watch, falsely claiming that this guideline allowed him to
What it boils down to is that BLP - the real issue at play in the content dispute - requires inclusion of minority views. AQFK just ignores those viewpoints with a disruptively vague dismissal citing FRINGE but without constructively pursuing WP:Dispute Resolution when others disagree with his evaluation. Exhausted from the wikilawyering, I departed the article. Question for AQFK Others have suggested you've had prior experience with dramas involving 3RR exception point 7, and certainly there's the present example. Do you think your approach has caused less disruption than might have resulted by instead following the advice explicitly stated in the exception, i.e., to seek help from BLP noticeboard instead? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I now endorse calls for a renewed climate change topic ban due to Edit warring, gaming the system, and battlegrounding. The comments offered by Arbs thus far all address the RFC, so AQFK apologizes on that specific point and simply ignores my complaint of disruptive policy-shopping in order to somehow justify 22+ reverts of text AQFK apparently thinks is perfectly fine if it appears in the body of the article. There's neither an explanation nor apology for disrupting the article and talk page simply because he wanted to control the text in the lead section. By trying to soothe the ruffled Arb feathers thus far exposed, combined with these other behaviors, it's my opinion the apology is an example of gaming the system and battlegrounding while he is under the microscope. Accordingly, the topic ban should be renewed. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Closing with meaning - new requestForget sanctions on anybody.Our purpose here is prevention, not punishment. The only way to prevent future chaos in these articles is to resolve, once and for all, the correct application of policy to criticisms of Watts and his blog as being engaged in "climate change denial". Unless there is a binding resolution how that should work on these articles, I have little hope that sanctioning one or even a handful of editors will prevent anything, longterm. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:44, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by dave souzaThe #Statement by A Quest For Knowledge above repeats an argument he introduced at Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger) on 21 April 2015. It misrepresents the WP:LABEL guideline, which is a sub-page of MOS/STYLE, and introduces novel claims about policies. As of 21 April, the guideline included "denialist" as an example of a value-laden label which "may express contentious opinion and may be best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. In some cases, in-text attribution might be a better option." AQFK reinterprets this as meaning "the contentious terms such as 'denier' should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources." AQFK then says "So, the key question is, what do the majority of reliable sources say? In order to answer this question, I examined a random sampling of 10 reliable sources (including peer-reviewed journals), the vast majority used the term 'skeptic':", presenting "reliable sources randomly selected by Google". The word denier is defined in OxfordDictionaries.com as: 1) noun These are content issues to be resolved in normal talk page discussion, but AQFK's dogmatic insistence on novel interpretations of policy is tendentious and disruptive. A topic ban appears appropriate. . dave souza, talk 14:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by DHeywardThis is now stale and AQFK has shown the same behavior or worse has been displayed by some of his detractors here. This should be closed with no action as it's clear there is no action against AQFK will be preventative considering the amount of discord and POV pushing and BLP violations that exist on the topic. Any action should be aimed at adressing the disruption which is at the page and topic level. 1RR should be a page 1RR, not an editor, for example. Ubikwit is facing a topic ban imminently which should lower the confrontation. level somewhat. --DHeyward (talk) 20:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by TillmanThere's so much unhappy and ugly behavior on display in the recent (and continuing) edit warring over Anthony Watts (blogger) and WUWT, that it seems a bit churlish to single out AQFK. He has acknowledged, and apologized for, his edit-warring at Watts Up With That, above -- but he's gotten in trouble over this sort of thing before. The edit-warring that I observed began at WUWT, with a provocative edit by the editor who filed the complaint against AQFK, who added this opening sentence to the article, with no prior discussion:
Unsurprisingly, a number of editors felt that this was a problematic edit. The situation wasn't helped by the supporters of this change repeatedly claiming to have reached WP:Consensus for the change: please see this section at Article talk page. Specifically, please see this reply to the editor proposing sanctions, @ 18:01, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
So there was problematic behavior by the editor proposing the sanctions -- which makes one wonder if the purpose of this RfE might be to get an opposing editor to go away. Further, we read at the Statement by JBL:
So it's clear what at least one editor is hoping for from this, and perhaps subsequent, enforcement actions. Other editors, both here and at Anthony Watts (blogger), have made clear their antipathy against both Watts and his blog. NAEG's reply to AQFK's apology, @23:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC), also strikes me as rather mean-spirited, as his own behavior has not (imo) been without fault in this ongoing edit war. To be fair, neither has mine, and I think the arbs would have to look very hard to find a blameless editor active during the edit wars at these two articles. Sigh. This Request for Enforcement is already having a chilling effect on editors who have opposed the efforts to label Anthony Watts and his blog as Climate Deniers. Is this what the ArbComm wants? --Pete Tillman (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Jess@NewsAndEventsGuy This request is about specific problematic behavior, not a content dispute. While I agree that broader action will be necessary to address related problems from other editors, it is very likely going to require a separate AE case (and probably soon). AQFK's behavior is distinct from the other problems we're seeing, and it is very likely to extend to other articles in the topic even if this specific dispute is resolved. I'm unsure how I feel about his apology for the RfC, and especially his lack of interest in addressing other complaints, such as his edit warring, misrepresentation of sources, and so on. It's possible his behavior will improve without sanctions, but we should consider that possibility on its own, not settle on it because we got distracted by unrelated behavior from others. — Jess· Δ♥ 02:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by NomoskedasticityIf this report is simply allowed to archive, we will surely end up here again when the behaviour resumes. It's not hard to imagine that AQFK is biding his/her time, refraining from editing as a means of giving the impression that there's no issue to deal with. Past experience suggests otherwise. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:00, 20 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by JBLAQFK has not edited essentially since this was filed. During the same period, discussion on the Anthony Watts page has been considerably more civil and constructive. I think there's a natural conclusion to draw. --JBL (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC) Result concerning A Quest For Knowledge
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MarkBernstein
Handpolk topic-banned, I will place the GG-related BLPs under Pending Changes as a normal admin action. Zad68 13:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning MarkBernstein
It's important to note that 'gamergate supporter' or anything similar is essentially a slur. It's a personal attack. And since I am not in any way a gamergate supporter, it really offends me to be described that way. It's also a violation of AGF to accuse somebody of editing the article in accordance with views you perceive them to have. And extremely disruptive to do so repeatedly whenever you disagree, in an attempt to win an argument. Along with demonstrating a battleground mentality. All of those are exactly what User:MarkBernstein has been doing to me, despite repeated warnings from me to stop. And they are against the sanctions that put a very short leash on all editors to not be disruptive. At the very least, I would ask him to be topic banned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MarkBernstein&diff=prev&oldid=666700640
Discussion concerning MarkBernsteinStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MarkBernsteinI am meeting with a distinguished colleague Saturday, and will have tasks and topics of greater interest and urgency before me. The complainant's behavior rather speaks for itself, as does the number of distinguished editors at AN/I who supported an indef even before this ill-advised return to AE. His subreddit, where notable Wikipedians have been ordered to "post tits", may also interest readers; it will not be difficult for you to find, I would call your attention to the amount of time and aggravation this editor has cost the project in the immediate wake of steps taken to stem the flood of "new" and zombie Gamergate editors. I said then that more would be needed; that appears to be the case. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC) It was perhaps very wicked of me, back in 2014, to allude to the influx of new, zombie, brigaded, and sockpuppet accounts that arrived at Gamergate, each so eager to be severely neutral. I trust we have moved beyond that, now, and that we can speak plainly about what we so clearly see. This complaint is one small move in Gamergate’s new playbook. Expendable accounts plan to file numerous grievances that will require lots of admin time. If they succeed in securing sanctions against their targets, or in embarrassing more victims, that’s icing on the cake: the immediate goal is to exhaust those few administrators willing to mop the space. First we had an ill-founded attack on TRPoD from an IP editor, resulting in the 30/500 rule. Here on its heels, we have an ill-founded attack on me, intended to gut that rule by showing it to be toothless. (Note, incidentally, that Handpolk’s late collaborator Dwarvenhobble has already been banned as an obvious -- and now confessed -- sock of a banned editor.) Is there any reason to believe this will end here? Of course not. Handpolk's work has been a great success; they set out to spend a lot your time, and -- voila! -- your time has been spent. They set out to poke holes in the 30/500 rule, and while you’ve held your ground, they are not worse off than when they began and they know where to poke next. (Meanwhile, it looks like they're hoping to use the distraction to put scare quotes around each characterization of Gamergate abuse.) It is gratifying to see so many respected administrators below taking an interest in the problem and demonstrating close familiarity with the area, its unprecedented problems, and its extensive archives. Sooner or later, though, you will have to grasp the nettle. You know why the talk page archives run to a million words, why no question is ever settled, why the answer to every point is always yet another dissertation on why the reliable sources cannot be relied upon, why every fresh zombie is greeted and cosseted and protected until, as here, they fall to pieces. You don’t want to take this on, you’ve been hoping it would go away, melt, thaw, or resolve itself into a dew. I understand. I sympathize. But it has cost the rest of us a lot of time, it's costing the project credibility, and editors, and admins -- none of which it can afford right now -- and it's not getting any better. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:30, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Topic-banned editor @NorthBySouthBaranof:, participating in the Arbcom Lightbreather case, is being hounded along with former editor Ryulong by Gamergate IP editors trying to call attention to discussion of their supposed sex lives at an attack site we will not mention here. Paraphrasing his words, "I note that Gamergate-related disruption and personal attacks are continuing to spread across the encyclopedia, and entirely-unrelated arbitration cases are now being used as platforms to attack and harass Misplaced Pages users targeted by Gamergate. How long will it be before Misplaced Pages wakes up to the fact that this issue isn't a debating club with two sides, it's an organized campaign of harassment and abuse hell-bent on destroying the lives of its targets?” To further emphasize the point, the last few minutes a Gamergate supporter has written, falsely, that I wrote something untrue in The Guardian and then called Zoe Quinn a participant in the Gamergate controversy, suggesting that she had any choice after Gamergate used Misplaced Pages to announce her imminent murder. Enough already. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC) A reddit user named “ j0eg0d" has just opened a thread on one of the Gamergate forums to publicize this complaint. It disclaims any intention of encouraging Gamergaters to participate here, concluding "UPDATE: The Decision Against Bernstein Hasn't Been Made Yet, It's Ongoing, For Any Misplaced Pages Members That Haven't Made a Complaint ... I Mean ... Read The Article." A later addition, also signed "j0eg0d", explains that
Another editor named "ggtehxnor" opines:
At another Gamergate board, "WPBATTLEGROUND" starts a fresh thread titled "Let”s Talk About BarkMerstein.”
And as you know my talk page has been the home to lies and sneering insinuations, now kindly hatted by TRPoD. Thanks, guys! MarkBernstein (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC) @Bosstopher:’s historical survey is unsympathetic and in a few cases not quite accurate, but I thank him for taking the trouble. The original ban, in particular, arose as a boomerang when I (so young! so idealistic!) appealed here against what I believed to be a McCarthyist slander . I believe I did not develop the terminology of Boss/Provocateur/Pal until Careless on January 22, substantially later. I am happy to discuss these former broils if you like, but don't wish to tire your patience. If any of you are of a historical bent, you also want to review Gamergate’s successful attack on Ryulong, from which this case (if case this be!) is taken. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
"An encyclopaedia is not amoral. It either supports evil through complacency or it embodies an overall force for good by refusing to flinch from the delineation of all, both evil and good. When we flinch and turn a blind eye to violent attempts to subvert our great work, then we face the true test.” -- Tony Sidaway MarkBernstein (talk) 03:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC) @J0eg0d: Re your comment about tag teams (forsooth!) with Strongjam and Bosstopher (!): I have no idea what you're saying, or asking me, or anyone, to do. MarkBernstein (talk) 02:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved IPPlease note that there is currently a discussion at WP:ANI about whether User:Handpolk's latest complaint should earn him a boomerang. At the moment it has unanimous support.208.76.111.246 (talk) 01:31, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My KenI do not want to replicate the AN/I report referred to by the IP, but it should be noted that Handpolk made 170 4-byte edits to List of Tamil films of 1973 within an hour, each one removing a single Wikilink, in order to pad his edit total and qualify for the 500/30 requirement. Such gaming of the system (which also included 20 closely-times edits to another article, as reported in the AN/I thread by Floquenbeam) should not be rewarded by allowing him to edit Gamergate articles, or by having this complaint heard here. BMK (talk) 02:14, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MasemWhile I do have a lot of doubts as to Handpolk's sincerity on their edits (the numerous tiny edits on one article as to get to 500+ edits), it should be noted that Mark has been warned and blocked twice before , due to his commenting on contributors not content in article talk space. This diff for example is specifically targeted at me due to a discussion I put into earlier regarding our WP:W2W policy. The comments toward Handpolk in article talk space are more of the same. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JormUser:Handpolk has pretty much followed the Gamergate Handbook On How To Be Difficult, only with a new twist (that of rapidly making hundreds of minor edits in order to game himself into the 30/500 set). Oh, he also started a subreddit where he exposes other Misplaced Pages editors to sexual harassment. He's absolutely not here to make an encyclopedia, and has just been indefinitely topic banned from the Gamergate/games/feminism area for his conduct. This should be closed as "no action."
Statement by PeterTheFourth@Masem: Perhaps you should start a different enforcement request where the well is not quite so prodigiously poisoned by the filer? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 04:14, 13 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72I do not believe that a reasonable person would find either the subject or the filer of this AE request to be entirely blameless. Given the issue raised here appears to be limited to comments about each other an interaction ban may be sufficient & appropriate. Support mutual (two-way) I-ban. - Ryk72 04:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by ForbiddenRockyI suspect the filer is WP:NOTHERE as evidenced by his reddit and other actions. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tony SidawayA topic ban of the filer is merited on the grounds of their blatant attempt to game the 500 edit qualification. This already seems to have been handled through a topic ban arrived at by community discussion at ANI, however. I suggest this current AE discussion may be safely closed with a note of that ban, unless there is merit in the original complaint. In the latter case, perhaps a new filer will come forward to advance any genuine issues. --TS 12:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC) The filer is advertising, on both user page and user talk page, a reddit community supposedly created by the filer that is described as uncensored and currently contains attacks on individual Misplaced Pages editors. An edit by me earlier today to remove the user page link citing WP:POLEMIC was reverted by the filer on the pretext of "vandalism". Obviously I'm walking away because I don't want to play to anybody's script. But maybe an indefinite block is merited here before things get out of control. --TS 01:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC) As a not at all disinterested observer I think it's fair to say that some otherwise edgy behaviour by some editors is being treated with a little indulgence (though very far from absolute liberty) precisely because they are clearly reacting to deliberate, targeted attacks that have been without cease for nine months. I don't know about other topics in Misplaced Pages that may be subject to similar attacks or worse, but I observe that over the past few months since the Gamergate arbitration this page has quite often been dominated by discussion of Gamergate. It may not be the worst topic for external pressure, but it's certainly not the least. There are honourable and fair editors who disagree with the mainstream on how we should report Gamergate; there are even some who clearly retain an honest belief that our NPOV policy requires that which I think it is impossible to square with the normal and routine interpretation we use everywhere else. They honestly and sincerely believe that Misplaced Pages should be truly amoral, knowing no difference between the most radiant love and the most heinous hatred, between a hand that caresses and a hand that mortally wounds. Those people, I can work with, though their very existence makes my hair stand up on end. We can discuss and wrangle and, grudgingly, reach a compromise that doesn't go off the deep end but does satisfactorily convey the fact that some objective harm must inevitably be conveyed in the course of reporting on malicious human behaviour. But we cannot work at all under the pressure of that same hatred, which I loathe with every fibre of my being, that seeks to harm those who find threats of rape to be a bad thing. And that's where we are. Ignore it, perhaps, for as Wikipedians we all have that option and that's always been the path condoned by Arbcom, sometimes expressly but usually only by omission. But an encyclopaedia is not amoral. It either supports evil through complacency or it embodies an overall force for good by refusing to flinch from the delineation of all, both evil and good. When we flinch and turn a blind eye to violent attempts to subvert our great work, then we face the true test. Righting great wrongs? No. Just making sure that we all understand that just getting the facts down, according to the NPOV, is a truly political statement and not one we should duck. --TS 00:19, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by ProtonkI'd rather we not sanction editors for calling a duck a duck. The "I'm not a gater, I'm just a neutral editor who wanted to learn about GG and found the article be be biased" line is well-worn. We've heard it from literally every gater and almost never heard it from editors one might reasonably call neutral or disinterested. It is well worn precisely because serves a useful rhetorical purpose. The speaker can not only claim neutrality but they can erect that veneer over their position (which is almost inevitably pro gamergate in general and in this specific case stupefyingly obviously pro gamergate). Editors here trying to do their best to follow AGF are then obligated to treat this manifest ploy as the law of the land. If you accuse them what is plainly clear, you're impugning their neutrality or using a slur (gamergater) to describe them. If we keep reading from the same script it is no surprise the lines don't change. GG certainly won't change the tactic because it works like gangbusters and because it fits with their narrative of GG as objective/neutral and the rest of the world as biased. I find the hand-wringing above from editors who claim to be neutral offensive. This complaint is baseless and should be dismissed as such. Protonk (talk) 16:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EvergreenFirI've been quasi sorta watching Handpolk and frankly they've made the rope makers quite rich already. Nearly as rich as they've made the glue factories. It's honestly heartening that anyone would find a glimmer of potential here and if Zad68 thinks there's hope, don't see why not let them one more coil of rope? Though it's quite generous given the user's actions. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:31, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Gamaliel - Statement by IP userI find it strange that text which doesn't mention the banned topic would be sanctionable as a topic ban violation, or that it qualifies for removal under WP:POLEMIC. The user reported in this request in fact has the following text on their talk page which seems to advocate the destruction of wikipedia yet no mention has been made of WP:POLEMIC over several months:
I find it especially strange that here Gamaliel supports an indefinite ban when, while that same reported user was topic banned they maintained on their user pages links to their personal blog discussing the topic, criticizing our handling of it and even criticizing editors directly! In that case however, rather than recommend an indefinite ban he thought it more appropriate to lift the editor's topic ban. Is there some difference in these two situations not apparent to the rest of us? 173.192.176.158 (talk) 06:25, 14 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Cullen328The thing I like the least among the OP's behavior, among a range of bad behaviors that one might want to analyze, is that they stomped away while loudly accusing actually productive editors of being "trolls" and "vandals". Can you imagine? Folks like Liz, the kind, helpful opposite of a troll. I do not believe that the encyclopedia will suffer at the loss of this editor. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by LizMy statement isn't about Mark but about Handpolk. I would argue that we give the topic ban a chance have an impact. I already see Handpolk editing on non-Gamergate articles which was the main goal of the topic ban. I can see he has a bit of a persecution complex right now and doesn't fully undertand how, in good faith, editors on Misplaced Pages disagree all of the time but manage to, mostly, find a way to coexist without going to ANI or AE. But I hope maybe working with a different group of editors can turn him around. He's an intelligent editor and I see his main offense to be an unwillingness to drop the stick. If the topic ban can cause him to move on from Gamergate and work on other pages, then it will have served its purpose. Liz 20:12, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by 63.153.218.127I would just like to note that MarkBernstein accused an IP of creating the first arbitration request against TRPoD. 63.153.218.127 (talk) 20:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranofI note that Gamergate-related disruption and personal attacks are continuing to spread across the encyclopedia, and entirely-unrelated arbitration cases are now being used as platforms to attack and harass Misplaced Pages users targeted by Gamergate. How long will it be before ArbCom wakes up to the fact that this issue isn't a debating club with two sides, it's an organized campaign of harassment and abuse hell-bent on destroying the lives of its targets for nothing more than "lulz"? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by j0eg0d@Zad68: Apologies Zad68, I'm unfamiliar with the Admins handling this request ... In regards to User:MarkBernstein; I will talk from my own experiences: Mark has engaged in WP:OUTING me and brigading members Liz & Cullen328 into investigation of (what Mark believed to be) my IP address. MARK WAS WARNED Yet he continued researching for personal information about me through the Hugo Awards website, and demanding I provide personal information myself. I have been a member of Misplaced Pages since 2005, Mark's persistence that I am a SOCK account appears to be a false-excuse to harass others & openly DOX people. He reacts this way to anyone looking to discuss the role of Gamergate. Mark and acquaintances PeterTheFourth, TheRedPenOfDoom, Jorm blatantly Wikihounded me and others in discussions about Gamergate. It's all archived. They would Wikihound me personally when I created a dialog in a forum, edited other pages, or simply uploaded an image for a WIKI page. Their sole purpose regarding GamerGate_Controversy (IMHO) is to divert intelligent dialog by twisting words, going off-topic, deleting and hatting anything providing a balanced narrative about the #gamergate hashtag. Read from Mark's own words above; "zombie Gamergate editors, brigaded and sockpuppet accounts". These are the same biased, angry (dare I claim paranoid) attacks used against someone who has been with Misplaced Pages for 10 years. I stepped away from Misplaced Pages just to get a break, and here I return to still see Mark's activities being allowed. This man and his alliances (Please note who is defending Mark and who is requesting Handpolk be topic banned) are disruptive to every GamerGate topic and aggressively harass newer users that want to add to the same GamerGate discussion - I point to Handpolk whose USER page was altered because of a link he provided to Reddit. He was accused of advertising in this case. I can see the frustration in this, because Mark Bernstein's USER page is advertising his own website. Mark advertises again below in A Modest Informal Proposal where I admittedly removed the link to his website only to have to undone by ]. Is this because of favoritism, because no one has ever pointed it out, or maybe Mark has enough friends to create the consensus that his website is not advertising? My appeal on Mark Bernstein, in light of the documented history of his past bannings & current behavior; is to permanently restrict him from every topic regarding GamerGate. I find this to be an absolutely reasonable action considering his current request to "check"(2) every Misplaced Pages newcomer. Mark is not learning from his past bans. --j0eg0d (talk) 07:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I believe any accusations by MarkBernstein should be sourced. I'm very aware of MarkBernstein;s excessive suspicions as it have been focused on myself in Mark's attempts to OUT me. His immoderate requests made to "harass" newcomers should be taken as an admission in treating Misplaced Pages as if it were a battleground. I'm also concerned by the accounts of TRPOD, PeterTheFourth, Jorm, Strongjam and NorthBySouthBaranof in what is clearly a shared agenda. I find it difficult to believe their claims of "organized attacks" against themselves or Misplaced Pages when each of these editors have cried wolf continuously on IP addresses, contributing editors such as Masem, myself and every NEWCOMER that seeks to correct errors in a WIKI article. Even within this very page it is Mark's unusual behavior that needs to be addressed as it is personable to me ... To Quote
I have one account and only one account with Misplaced Pages since 2005. I have not been blocked or restricted in all my 10 years. MarkBernstein continues to make these accusations without fact, evidence or sourcing. MarkBernstein pursuant zealotry in researching & following me inside & outside of Misplaced Pages is the exact method in which Mark approaches every person bringing question to the very articles MarkBernstein himself guards. ADMINS, I must ask: After so many temporary blocks/restrictions specific Long Term Abuse, if MarkBernstein has not learned how to behave by now; Why is he and his Wikihounds being allowed to continue this WP:BATTLEFIELD conduct? --j0eg0d (talk) 04:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
@Strongjam and Strongjam: If you and your WP:Tag Team with Bosstopher & Mark Bernstein have an ARBCOM request towards me or other Editors making statements; You may want to create a separate request (with sources) as you're pursuing off-topic conversations to distract from the current issue. --j0eg0d (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by StrongjamThis bullshit is the type of thing MarkBernstein and NorthBySouthBaranof are talking about, and it needs to stop. — Strongjam (talk) 15:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JohnuniqJ0eg0d's above statement mentions their long history at Misplaced Pages—that's a good achievement but it would be fairer to note the context:
That gives a total of 304 edits, the vast majority of which have been in 2015 and concerned with gamergate. Most editors would not have sufficient experience to comment at WP:AE after 304 edits, nor would they know that "WP:BATTLEFIELD" is a useful term of art. Rather than worrying about whether MarkBernstein has examined off-wiki forums, it would make more sense to worry about the off-wiki forums where tactics to push the gamergate line are discussed. Johnuniq (talk) 10:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Bosstopher@Zad68: It's only just hit me that you don't know the background of Mark's topic bans and his IBANs with DHeyward so here I go. Mark was originally Tbanned for making some very extreme claims. He accused Thargor Orlando of being part of a coordinated 8chan threat against which endangered his life, without providing any evidence, made some incredibly dodgy and insulting comments to starship.paint and accused Masem of being the BOSS of a Gamergate faction that was organising offsite. As a result he ended up topic banned. Then he wrote a blogpost that got covered in the Guardian, got blocked for posting about it on Jimbotalk, got his topic ban removed because it had supposedly become punitive by this point. He then returned to editing the article and behaved a lot more calmer than last time, but people he crossed swords with before his topic ban found it hard to bury the hatchet. So they tried to get him tbanned over minor issues. This led to all those IBANS that popped up, as well as another temporary topic ban/block. As for the present day I'm not really sure what's going on, because it's been 2 weeks since I've had a good nights sleep, but j0eg0d is acting like an ass ( +Mark's statement)) and really has no room to talk about AGF and civility. Also people in general are being a bit too mean to Masem on the talk page and really ought to dial it down. Bosstopher (talk) 12:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC) @Protonk: That comment is no more absurd than claiming Masem is coordinating a Gator army, which is something multiple editors of the article actually believe. On a related note you'd think if an experienced administrator was coordinating offsite disruption he'd come up with a better strategy than the current one: "And then after 4 days and 10 posts, you go to talk page and write "This isn't neutral at all, you're all SJWs! Then they'll be bound to fix the article!"Bosstopher (talk) 12:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC) @Zad68:@MarkBernstein: Per your suggestion, (and per the worrying path j0eg0d is taking), here is a brief summary of what happned to Ryulong for Zad to get some context. Once upon a time an advocate of Gamergate started editing Misplaced Pages. He didn't like what was going on so he complained about it on reddit (a lot). He eventually made so many reddit posts about wikipedia that they made him a moderator of /r/KotakuInAction. Most of his reddit posts were extremely focused on Ryulong, some were highly insulting and tried to dig up dirt on him from a webpage that was created to harass him. He used exactly the same name on reddit and Misplaced Pages and admitted the reddit account was his multiple times. But whenever the account was brought up and Ryulong tried to correct his errors or get him to stop, he denied the account was his and accused everyone of WP:OUTING him. He then deleted the vast majority of his insulting reddit posts about Ryulong before the Arbcom case ended (does this remind you anyone @J0eg0d:?). The wikipedia administration in their infinite wisdom responded by banning Ryulong from mentioning offsite behaviour, and Arbcom claimed it was impossible to deduce that the reddit account and wikipedia account belonged to the same person (the extreme stupidity of such a conclusion still blows my mind to this day). In the end the editor in question got so ballsy that he started wikistalking Ryulong in the last days before his ArbCom ban, and it was this outrageous display which finally got him blocked (for 24 hour). Zad, I hope you keep the lessons of such a story in mind when dealing with complaints about insults on reddit. Also please note the recent RfC we had that concluded linking usages of the same username on multiple websites is not necessarily outing.Bosstopher (talk) 16:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC) @J0eg0d: Firstly I'd like to say how flattered I am that you think I have the necessary social skills to make friends. Secondly Mark's exclamation mark in brackets, pretty much sums up my views on your theory that Mark, Strongjam and me are some kind of evil Gamergate triumvirate. The reason I explained both Mark's story and that of Ryulong vs Loganmac to Zad, was because both were barely touched on in the Arbcom case, which is where he was looking for information. Also I never called you an ass, I merely said you were acting like an ass. I gave evidence that supported this, in the form of your taunting Mark through putting hidden Reichstag links in his username and referring to Gamaliel as his "butt buddy" on reddit. Now I am no expert on assholish behaviour, but surely you must agree that what you did here falls very well into that category? If my name calling is part of the problem, what does that make your name calling?Bosstopher (talk) 13:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Result concerning MarkBernstein
A Modest, Informal ProposalWe've had a rough day. An IP tried to use an Arbcom page to publicize material of a sexual nature about two Gamergate enemies -- one current and one former Wikipedian. The current Wikipedian complained there, and here; an IP deleted their complaint because they're topic banned for Gamergate. I repeated it, as it's Kafkaesque to prevent someone from protesting Gamergate's use of Misplaced Pages to defame them because they're not supposed to mention Gamergate. Then I was redacted. Finally, this page was semi-protected. Elsewhere, Zoe Quinn is being called a "participant" in the Gamergate Controversy, as if she chose to participate. I'm accused falsely of publishing a falsehood in The Guardian, and also of looking at Gamergaters funny, or something. A new Gamergater arrived at the talk page, full of severe neutrality (but not full of 500 edits) to argue that we must immediately link to the latest Gamergate attack site, the promotion of which is 8chan's talking point of the day. Other editors are again unhatting their pet dead horses and throwing up great walls of text in support of phantasmic and whimsical propositions that have no chance of gaining consensus. You're the experts: you know what to do! But, as you appear stuck, some things you might try include: 1) The IP loophole is clearly being used to allow socks or puppets to edit Arbcom and AE pages and Gamergate biographies. Stop this: semi-protect everything in sight for the next six months. At least that will deter the IP socks. 2) Consider checking all newcomers to Gamergate topics against the whole list of banned Gamergate editors. No doubt that's onerous, but what else can you do? (This still doesn't help with meat puppets, zombies, and brigades, but it's a start.) 3) Extend 30/500 to other problematic pages -- especially but not limited to the prominent Gamergate targets. 4) Either enforce the 30/500 restriction automatically, like blocks, or do this proactively, or let oversight do it proactively. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the defenders of the wiki to enforce rules against Gamergate transgression, and it reinforces their sense that the rules are simply meant to oppress them. 5) Limit or supervise Gamergate talk page editing. Endlessly repetitive rehashing of the same failed arguments, to which editors must respond time and time again, is painful and unproductive. At present, it requires endless wrangling simply to hat a dead horse -- and the horse always rises again in a couple of weeks. 6) Freeze the Gamergate page and the talk page. No dithering, no shadow drafts, nothing. Send everyone away until 2016. If anything needs to be changed, petition for the change at AE, with the understanding that few or no changes are likely to be accepted. These are drastic, but the pain this continued nonsense inflicts is very real. I’m not wedded at all to any of these suggestions, but it's time to try something. We have no business broadcasting murder threats against Gamergate's victims or broadcasting sexual gossip about Gamergate’s perceived enemies, and we're spending vast amounts of time (and incurring significant pain) simply to provide some amusing lulz for Gamergate’s fans.. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
@Gamaliel: I also see a number of comments here that indicate that some editors are here to . If you visit the usual Gamergate haunts, you may find a fairly fresh thread in which this is proposed as the talking point to use against that me and in defense of some of the more vocal participants here.At another, there's a nice thread about how "Masem’s had Enough" with that nasty Jew "Bernstein...stein..stein". MarkBernstein (talk) 21:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC) I understand that the clerks and admins need to allow a lot of latitude here, Still, I do think calling me "dishonest or paranoid" might be just a little hard to square with policy. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC) And since Dr. Hathaway raises the subject, I continue to stand behind Infamous and its sequels, in which, to the best of my knowledge, I took no liberties of any sort with any person’s words. Having previously diagnosed my mental illness, he now accuses me of unspecified professional misconduct. The mental illness is one thing, this is really another. Guys -- I tried to keep this section light in tone, general in its recommendations, and useful to administrators who I acknowledged have a tough job. You see below some of of the personal vituperation I'm receiving in consequence; there's plenty more beneath the waterline. I'm writing about the project; Gamergate responds by writing about (er) me. I'm really trying to help you here, but... MarkBernstein (talk) 23:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Dr. Hathaway now says my professional misconduct is not, as he wrote, "taking liberties with the words of others" but rather taking liberties with facts. He is mistaken on this count as well; that article correctly summarized the proposal that was its topic. If Dr. Hathaway wishes to take issue with something that The Guardian published, their editor Katherine Viner may be reached at Kings Place, 90 York Way, London N1 9GU; I cannot help him, nor can Misplaced Pages administrators. Again, repeated and unfair attacks on my professional reputation are hard to square with policy, especially as the topic of this section is not my conduct at Arbcom or elsewhere: Handpolk's complaint against my conduct is thataway ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ , In the mean time, perhaps someone might mop up the mess? MarkBernstein (talk) 23:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC) To repeat myself at dr hathaway's demand, neither Infamous nor its sequels took any liberties with any facts. Though my professional reputation is not even slightly pertinent to this topic, I value it highly. Will an appropriate authority kindly delete this gratuitous personal attack or indicate that personal attacks, even if false and irrelevant , are sanctioned by custom or policy here? MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
The attention of administrators is called to this outrageous eve of wiki hounding . I presume even wiki editors who cross Gamergate are permitted to volunteer for their local candidates! Even if they support Democrats? MarkBernstein (talk) 01:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Starke HathawayAny proposed solution to what is wrong with the Gamergate article will be incomplete if it does not address the problem of a number of established editors with powerful personal feelings on the topic asserting ownership over the article, strangling any attempt to even discuss changes that do not fully agree with their preferred POV on the topic, and creating a palpably hostile, demeaning, and uncollaborative environment for anyone who dissents from their preferred POV (i.e., everyone but themselves). You don't need to look any farther than the abuse they heap on Masem, a long-established editor and administrator, to see that this is a problem. And that is entirely beside the fact that they assume, without evidence and in total contravention of AGF, that any young editor or newcomer to the topic area is a sock, or a troll, or a trolling sock. Just today, MarkBernstein alone has referred to Masem as a "Gamergate fan" (Masem has strenuously objected to this characterization), to Rhoark (and me) as simply "Gamergate" (neither of us so identify as far as I know), and reposted a topic-banned editor's comments about Gamergate to AE. In short, the article has exactly the same problem it had before the ArbCom case, which is that a confederacy of frankly paranoid editors is hell-bent on creating an article that reads in the most condemnatory way possible without regard to other editors' views, AGF and civility, and the sources as demonstrated by the discussion here. That's not to say it doesn't have other problems as well, but I think everyone might find that the flames will die down if certain individuals around here stop throwing gasoline on them. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by ForbiddenRockyDear Admins, please save GGC from all the dead horses. Today included a suggestion to change the lede that has been shot down every time. And a repeat of the attempt to make GG ethics the keystone of the description of GG. And a rehash of the anti-feminism issue. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 23:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Ryk72Respected Administrators, Having reviewed the considerable archives of the Talk pages, one feels inclined to believe that there would be less re-discussion if discussions were allowed to reach their normal conclusion; rather than being endlessly filibustered, derailed with WP:FORUM violating comment on the Article subject, personal attacks, constant requests to close discussion, and aggressive "hatting". If editors were compelled to focus on the discussion of article improvements, you might see both a better editing environment and a better article. NB: Diffs to follow. - Ryk72 23:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC) Statement By MasemFirst and foremost, it is very very frustrating that there is continued attempts to meat/sockpuppet Misplaced Pages due to GG-related issues, and I share Mark's and likely countless other admins in having to stem that tide. I certain agree in condemning any editor (new/IP or otherwise) that attempts to shame other editors in the matter Mark's addressed. This unfortunately is a reality that WP, being an open wiki in a age where the 4chan/Anon mentality exists, has to struggle with. This is still a learning experience for WP for everyone to figure out how to deal with these topics that involve the technology-saavy. That said, Mark has demonstrated in his analysis above the continued battlefield mentality that he and others on that page have continued to engage in since the formal closure of the GG arbcom case, in line with Starke Hathaway's comments above. In his plea, he points out how to limit IP and new editors (a reasonable step, particular in light of Handpolk's approach), but then says that we must block all further discussion on the talk page, which is basically allowing his version of the article, which several established editors including myself, have pointed out still has problems in tone and neutrality, and while summarizing the sources, is being used as a soapbox to attack the Gamergate supporters/movement in a manner that no other WP on a disliked group is treated as. Myself and other editors cannot get any word in edgewise because Mark and others on that page try to shut down any discussion before it can start. Add in the personal attacks or comments directed at other editors and not content (which I again point out, Mark has been warned and blocked twice within the duration of Gamergate), and this is the same OWNership and battleground mentality that Ryulong, NBSB, etc. showed from the original ArbCom. I've personally been very patient, trying to avoid opening any new ArbCom case against them and trying to work with them, but any suggestions that simply don't fit their vision are stonewalled. --MASEM (t) 00:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement By RhoarkMuch has been made about calling people Gamergaters. Mark Bernstein has made it abundantly clear that he defines a Gamergater as a violent misogynist. This makes it problematic when he casually labels someone as such. I on the other hand consider a Gamergater to be someone with a deep concern for verifiability in all media and solidarity with anyone who's been persecuted for expressing their views. As such, it's high praise that I consider Mr. Bernstein a standout Gamergater. I expect that displeases him, but I hope we can eventually see eye-to-eye. What this all goes to show is simply that we should not worry about what a Gamergater "really" is, foruming, and righting great wrongs. Rather we should focus on the sources. There is a problem, as others have noted, that certain editors are unwilling to engage with the sources. They will quote the name of a policy, but are unwilling to explain how it is pertinent. They will call for a discussion to be hatted without bothering to understand what has been said. This stems from the unfortunate situation of the number of trolls they have had to endure. They deserve sympathy on this count, but it has trained them to take a very particular mental shortcut of regarding anyone they see as opposition as being interchangeable. Thus you see Mr. Bernstein casually describing events on and off wiki as simply a continuum of "what Gamergate did today". They see conspiracies and campaigns whenever anyone on the Internet takes note of how bad the article is. It's true, whenever it happens there's an influx of people who are not familiar with policy or the history of the talk page. This is why we already have the exceptional 30/500 requirement. So far as I can tell, it hasn't helped. Experienced editors, who understand policy, are still subject to aspersions as if they were part of the mob. Will any of the proposed measures help? I can't say. Any of them but a total freeze would be mostly harmless. However, for these editors, change will ultimately have to come from within. Rhoark (talk) 01:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by ColorOfSuffering7) Topic-ban every user who has ever contributed to the Gamergate controversy talk page or article. This can be extended to other articles within the scope of Gamergate, but I'd focus on the controversy page first. We can maintain the 300/50 silliness to keep the trolls at bay, but we need to start from scratch with all new faces. The article does not need to be frozen; the editors do. There are too many battleground SPAs monitoring the most trivial edit, exhibiting extreme battleground behavior that would be excoriated in any other article space. Everyone with skin in the game has had their say, I believe it's now time for the true uninvolved editors to clean up the mess. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 05:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by an uninvolved editor FDJK001Some nice ideas up there. Seeing how an editor threatened to block me after seeing my pattern of editing (actually my intentions were unrelated to gaining access to 500/30, the reason is hilarious), I realized things based off of what I read from all of you, how if unregulated Misplaced Pages could become the broadcast channel for Gamergate (quoting MarkBernstein and how the 500/30 rule could work only for so long. First of all, I am uninvolved, having placed only one edit on the talk page for Gamergate but only to have it closed in minutes for my quota on edits being too low. So my one edit on there doesn't count and so this categorizes me as uninvolved. We obviously need to restrict editors who have had some involvement with the talk page and those who have battleground behaviour, like ColorOfSuffering said. So here could be the optimal compilation of the solutions:
I might come back and redefine my solutions if more loopholes spring up. I wish you all luck in finding the true optimal solution. Good night. FDJK001 (talk) 06:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC). Statement by j0eg0d1) I suggest this for Gamergate related discussion only; The excessive suspicion Ad Nauseam of the IP "loopholes", "socks" & "puppets" could also be handled by taking away the swords & shields off the editors battle-fielding the WIKI. OR - We could experiment with a trial-solution that all gamergate_controversy edits refrain from USER names and only allow IP signed content.
2) Checking all newcomers interested in Gamergate topics disregards Assume Good Faith. We are very aware of the interest in the WIKI Gamergate_controversy, because the current page is completely one-sided. It's one reason we get so many newcomers - because people want a balanced narrative. Editors certainly can not perform reasonably with the logic that every single newcomer is (sic) "meat puppets" or "zombies" Incivility. It would be autocratic in entertaining the idea and it's just further harassment. 3) "Extend 30/500 to other problematic pages" Again, we have a demand for restrictions and again Mark specifically points to "the prominent Gamergate targets". I suggest Mark Berstein be removed from every gamergate topic, because (IMHO) Mark Bernstein incites the disruptions Don't Be A Fanatic. I'm speaking from personal experience noted in this statement above. 4) "enforce the 30/500 restriction automatically" Again ... more restrictions ... A suggestion to dominate #gamergate discussions by some inherent right. It IS part of our responsibility to maintain the WIKI, and by locking in automated functions that BLOCK even the questioning of content is subjugation. 5) "Limit or supervise Gamergate talk page editing" We should never need to restrict a TALK page. It's the manner in reviewing content, identifying bias and (for some) pointing out the unreasonable hostility towards #gamergate supporters. This excuse of "endlessly repetitive rehashing of the same failed arguments" is the fault of those editors insulting, attacking, Tag Teaming newcomers - as I and several other have noted and genuinely experienced. 6) "Freeze the Gamergate page and the talk page" ... more of the same deadhorse calls for restriction. Maybe it's time the Admins knew the opposition's story? We've heard plenty of Mark's one-sided prejudices & intolerant name-calling here. With all humility, I request our Admins to watch this interview with actor Adam Baldwin - Adam Baldwin created the #gamergate hashtag and he explains exactly why he started Gamergate. I understand YouTube is not a reliable source, I am not suggesting it be allowed in the WIKI, that isn't my intention. My intention is to allow you (our Administrators) to understand what makes the WIKI Gamergate_controversy so BIASED, and why people are so adamant about a Neutral Point Of View. It may also help you come to a final decision. @Zad68: Final Thought: I wouldn't mind if we deleted the gamergate WIKI and let User:Ryulong's old friends go back to protecting his Kamen_Rider creations. They've made a mockery of the entire structure and I for one am tired of seeing new editors scrutinized & discouraged. I would also like some attention noted on the persons that have diverted this case off-topic over the past 8 days, as I believe the intentions are to close any resolution against Mark Bernstein by rehashing the Gamergate controversy and misdirecting attention to other Editors: ], ], ], ], ], ], ]. --j0eg0d (talk) 08:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by AquillionMost of these seem a bit too heavy-handed; the page itself is fairly stable, say, and while the circular talk-page discussions might be frustrating, my reading of the way they're going is that they're unlikely to lead to any dramatic changes. More aggressively doing checkusers on new users who immediately start arguing the position of recently-banned or topic-banned users could be reasonable, but the 30/500 restriction is hopefully minimizing that problem anyway. Regarding people going around the 30/500 restriction, though, I would suggest extending it to the entire topic regardless of where it appears, since it does seem like some users are just posting elsewhere in order to avoid that restriction and since it's generally bad for one content dispute to spill out all over the wiki. Being more proactive about topic-banning editors who seem like they're here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS or whose discussion indicates that they're WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia could help with a bit of the rancor, though (and discourage users from getting rancorous about their views in the first place). Anyone who edits a controversial article extensively is going to have some kind of opinion on its topic, on the sources and how to weight them and so on; but that opinion has to be expressed in a way consistent with our policies or it's not really going to be helpful. Misplaced Pages is not really the place to try and eg. press a disagreement with the mainstream coverage, and people who repeatedly seem to be pushing that without any apparent regard for the problems it causes are probably here to get the word out on a viewpoint they feel is being suppressed by the mainstream media -- which isn't an unreasonable thing to want, but which means they're WP:NOTHERE to write an encyclopedia. As an aside, I notice that a lot of users above are referring to WP:OWN a lot in an accusatory manner; it might be worth reminding people of WP:STEWARDSHIP. If people are editing an article due to sincere interest in its subject matter, and if they're taking the time to explain why they object to a change (as opposed to just tirelessly reverting back to one version with little or no explanation), it isn't usually WP:OWN. As that article says, it's important to be careful about throwing accusations about it around, since it can be taken as a personal attack (it implies that their edits are coming from a sense of ownership rather than a desire to improve the article.) --Aquillion (talk) 22:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by TheRedPenOfDoomI am not sure how it would be possible to contain the disruption of the gamergate trolls. If you have the stomach to go to their boards, you find that they are COMPLETELY OUTRAGED!!! by something new and not related to games every day - and they still seem to feel that Misplaced Pages is the place where they should play the white knight and try to right these terrible wrongs if only the SJW would just go away and let them write the TRUTH. But the longer they are allowed to maintain that delusion, the more of Misplaced Pages gets sucked into that pit. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by LizThis request has been open now for 8 days and has gone in a dozen different directions and we are now rehashing the Gamergate controversy as it was lived out on Misplaced Pages. It seems likely that no action will be taken against any editor so could Gamaliel, Zad68 or another admin close this case? Gamergate discussion have the potential to continue indefinitely so editors will keep posting as long as this complaint is open. Liz 20:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Result concerning A Modest, Informal ProposalI see a lot of comments here that indicate that some editors are here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and not to edit the encyclopedia in a neutral manner regarding a variety of topics. Gamaliel (talk) 20:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Liz, this should be closed for that very reason. I'm not going to close it myself, because every time I say or do anything here, I get a bunch of messages and emails saying how I'm preventing righteous justice or some shit. Gamaliel (talk) 20:24, 21 June 2015 (UTC) I will place the GG-related BLPs under Pending Changes per Newyorkbrad's suggestion. No further action, if you want BIG CHANGES start another ArbCom. |
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Jaqeli
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Jaqeli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Jaqeli 14:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 1
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- 1
Statement by Jaqeli
Hello everyone. 3 months ago I was granted by admin @HJ Mitchell: with 3 month topic ban exemption on several of my TBAN-related articles, the reason behind this was to see if I could be trusted again in the area of my TBAN. Now my 3 months topic ban exemption is over so I want to file a new request at AE. I want my TBAN to be cancelled and lifted from me entirely. During these 3 months I've created some good quality articles, expanded some and I didn't engage in any edit war. I want to get back to wiki again without any TBAN on me as I can do many good for wiki as I am sure during this period of time I have truly learned my lessons from my past mistakes. As I've said in my past appeal 3 months ago I fully understand this is my last chance given to me so I will definitely keep and follow my word. Thank you. Jaqeli 15:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello @Heimstern: Please see my contribs but one of them can be Epigram of Amazaspos. As for conflicts, I had no conflicts during 3 months. Thank you. Jaqeli 23:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
I'm not currently active in AE matters, so I'll leave it to my fellow admins to determine whether the topic ban should be lifted. At a glance I see nothing problematic in recent contribs, so why not. Sandstein 13:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Jaqeli
Result of the appeal by Jaqeli
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Hello, Jaqeli. You say that you have created quality articles in the past three months. Would you mind linking to some of your best contributions in that time? Also, have you handled any conflicts in that time? That could help us evaluate your request. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- Just letting everyone know that I've hit a busy patch of real life and likely won't be able to continue work on this for at least a few days. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Based on a lookover of the past several hundred edits (going back through May), I'm fine with the topic ban being removed. Has the process by which one lifts a topic ban changed from a bureaucratic perspective recently? Or can I just go and strike the remedy from the log? NW (Talk) 21:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Re: NW, I think struck the entry (but not remove it fully) is the proper procedure. - Penwhale | 23:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Unblock request from 82.11.33.86
IP unblocked. The user has agreed to stop warring at Gulf War and will create an account that they will use for any edits to ARBPIA articles. EdJohnston (talk) 16:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
An IP user who was recently blocked for 1RR violation at Gulf War just requested an unblock on their talk page. Here is the unblock request:
--TL22 (talk) 18:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Uninvolved non admin BosstopherIllegitimate block. The IP editor was never properly alerted of DS guidelines per policy and therefore can't recieve a DS block, even if the edit page itself has the relevant information. Also it seems a bit overzealous, somebody could have just gone to the IP's talk page an informed them of 1RR without need for a block, which in my (albeit limited to one topic area) experience is what usually happens when someone violates 1RR. Judging by the IPs current comments they would have stopped if informed. Bosstopher (talk) 18:54, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Mar4dI don't want to debate the merits of the block, but a cursory look at WP:AN3 shows that this highly problematic user is involved in 4 different edit wars. If not this, the IPs actions elsewhere are significant to contend disruption. That of course is another topic, but relevant as far as the IP's recent conduct is concerned. Mar4d (talk) 19:23, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Involved non admin TripWireI'll leave the validity of the block to the admins, but I, having been dealt with this IP over the past week or so, would like to say:
Statement by blocking administratorI don't think this has been copied over properly, but no matter. First, a DS alert is not necessary for a violation of 1RR. Second, the IP was at least put on notice at AN3 when the filer stated that it was a violation of WP:ARBPIA, although I don't believe he used the magical term 1RR. The IP could then have self-reverted or at least said he didn't know. Putting all that aside, and assuming that the IP's claim of ignorance is perceived as credible, I have no problem unblocking him if even one administrator thinks that's the right course of action.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Result of the appeal by 82.11.33.86
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J0eg0d
Wrong venue for the context of the behavior under review; closing with no action here, discussion is at ANI. Zad68 19:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning J0eg0d
Currently topic-banned (indef Gamaliel) and blocked (DESiegel); I'm not sure how to provide the diffs.
In diff #1, J0eg0d lashes out against Gamaliel and calls him a kapo, a Jewish concentration-camp guard, providing a helpful WikiLink for those unfamiliar with the term. In diff #2, J0eg0d defends his use of the term "kapo" and says Gamaliel and I "are lying about it." I replied:
J0eG0d removed this from his user page, which he is entitled to do, but the attitude displayed here might merit scrutiny. The repeated injection of religion into Gamergate is strange and unsavory, its defense here is not well calculated to excuse or explain the editor's conduct, and of course we have real questions of competence here as well. Someone using the same name on a gamergate forum at Reddit writes:
I mention this only because (a) you might want to know what’s coming down the track, and (b) if I had more confidence in this editor’s competence, I might take the four-letter-word as an allusion or dog-whistle to the Gender Gap Task Force ArbCom case, and that, too, might be worth knowing about. Admins being busy, I thought it might be easier to see it laid out plainly that to await your digging through the history for deleted passages.
Discussion concerning J0eg0dStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by J0eg0dStatement by Starke HathawayHe's already indefinitely topic-banned from Gamergate and currently blocked for the behavior MarkBernstein cites here. Leaving aside the question of what exactly MarkBernstein hopes to gain from bringing this request beyond the indefinite topic ban and block already in place, this request should be closed without action or at least deferred until j0eg0d is unblocked and can respond here. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by 174.30.95.89I don't think pursuing this is gonna help. j0eg0d already has an indef topic ban and is blocked for 3 weeks, more than enough to get the message across. This seems like kicking him while he is down. 174.30.95.89 (talk) 15:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by BosstopherJ0eg0d's behaviour has gone far beyond the pale, and a strong statement should be made that throwing anti-semitic insults at other editors is not acceptable. Even though he's currently topic banned and temporarily blocked, I don't think that's enough given the circumstance. His block should be extended to indefinite with room for a standard offer should he wish to return. Bosstopher (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
@Kyohyi:@Starke Hathaway:I think the armies of Mordor thing is not the nicest way to refer to a group of people. The term sealion has also been used insultingly from time to time on Misplaced Pages, such as this comment from tRPOD. This is obviously not the best way to go about civil editing. BUT (and this is one huge but, think Sarah Massey only bigger) this is not on the same level as calling someone a Kapo. I would much rather people associate me with the fictional character Sauron than Hitler. Also the Kapo insult was racially and ethnically charged. It's one thing to insult a group based on ideology (for instance saying Liberal Democrats are dumb), and another to insult a group based on ethnicity (for instance saying French people are dumb). While insults against people because of their ideology may not always be appropriate, it's just incomparable to racially charged epithets and insults.Bosstopher (talk) 17:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by StrongjamWhile I agree with Bosstopher. This seems like the wrong place for it. There is still an open topic on ANI regarding this. — Strongjam (talk) 16:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC) False equivalence springs to mind. — Strongjam (talk) 16:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved IPQuestion for the filer: beyond minor copyedits what substantive contributions have you made to the encyclopedia in the last week? Last month? I think it's time you demonstrate an intent to contribute positively beyond the scope of a minor video game controversy. Enough community time and effort has been wasted on this pettiness. 166.177.187.197 (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by TheRedPenOfDoomQuestion for 166.177.187.197: what contribution of any kind have you made to the project, in any space EVER? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by RolandRj0eg0d denies that the term "kapo" is antisemitic, arguing that it is instead "a term we call privileged Jews abasing other Jews". Putting aside, for a moment, the fact that he only uses this term to describe editors he perceives to be Jewish, we should note that in Jewish discourse the term kapo is used to mean a traitor. This was the term used by the Israeli right wing to delegitimise Yitzhak Rabin in the period of incitement leading up to his murder in 1995. So it would appear to me that its use in this context is far worse than a simple antisemitic smear; it is an implicit call for physical violence against the editors so defamed. Use of this term should be banned in Misplaced Pages, and those who so describe other editors should be severely sanctioned. RolandR (talk) 16:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by KyohyiDehumanization has been going on in the Gamergate topic area. If we are going to sanction this editor for this behavior we should be sanctioning all editors that participate in such behavior. --Kyohyi (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by ColorOfSufferingMy name was invoked and so I felt I should respond. First, I would like to say that calling someone a kapo is a bad thing, and I'd consider it a personal attack specifically on point #4: Statement by (username)Result concerning J0eg0d
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TheRedPenOfDoom
TRPoD indefinitely topic-banned from Gamergate per the standard GG discretionary sanction; they may appeal after six months. Zad68 19:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning TheRedPenOfDoom
None.
Yesterday, Anarchyte (talk · contribs) posted a question of in light of the website Kotaku's involvement with the Gamergate topic whether to continue to use them as a primary source or not . (Note that Anarchyte is >500 edits/30 day but I don't see any gaming like Handpolk). Additionally, they refers to the person on Kotaku as "one of their chief editors", which was probably an unintentional mistake, as the Kotaku person is a writer.) TheRedPenofDoom (TRPOD) reverted this (Diff #1 above), with the change "one sealion out, the next appears to make the same unfounded accusations" which is failing to assume good faith from the start. I subsequently reverted this and replied to the editor of how Kotaku is being used in relation to their question . TRPoD hatted this discussion (Diff #2 above) with again language that was inappropriate "WP:DEADHORSE / WP:BLP / WP:39PAGESOFTHISSHIT", as well as a question of violating 1RR. TRPoD, properly, did let Anarchyte (talk · contribs) aware of sanctions of the GG on their talk page but not after claiming they were "peddle in allegations" on the GG talk page (Diff #3 above). I pointed out TRPOD on that user's talk page that there was no BLP violations in the user's questions, and certainly nothing to question the disproven claim that is central to GG . TRPOD replies again that the disproven allegation was being dragged through the mud again ; I agree 100% in TRPOD if Anarchyte was redragging the disproven allegation but that was not the question asked. Subsequently TRPOD redacted out the claim on the GG talk page (Diff #4 above). He then begs a question of why Anarchyte linked to an archive version of the article then link directly . To some defense of TRPOD, using archive sites is a tactic of GGers but they use "archive dot is", a blacklisted site on en.wiki rather than the Wayback version. On TRPOD's redaction, and not wanting to hit 1RR myself, I opened a new section on the Meta page to ask about reverting the redaction as it was not a BLP issue . TRPOD again instisted there was a inference of the disproven accusation , and continued to assert that the goal of this whole discussion was to "muddy her name" . He subsequently hatted that discussion (Diff #5) with the change "ontinued attempts to slur reputation by association in events that 1) never occurred and 2) would not have been on the part of the only person named." which again is not what the original question was nor were any non-established claims made in this discussion to date. I reopened it since I felt the close was completely out of line and the discussion far from over. He rehatted that again (Diff #6) simply saying "WP:BLP". This is an isolated case that would likely merit a WP:TROUT from any other editor if it was done for the first time. But this is the continuation of behavior of TRPOD (who others have brought here before) of completely failing to assume good faith, issuing personal attacks and assuming editors are acting for Gamergate without cause, very little civility, trying to shut down discussions that they asserted have no need for further discussion, violating the 1RR behavior demanded by ArbCom, and overall a battleground mentality that shows no willingness to work with editors to discuss improvements to the article in a consensus-based manner (that is, WP:NOTHERE at least in the area of Gamergate). I have tried to give TRPOD benefit of the doubt in case of a mistaken read of Anarchyte's question. @Strongjam: Assuming good faith and in context of Anarchyte's question, I do not see the attempt to make a false statement - just misidentifying the person's role at Kotaku, but as their question was asked, it was the fact Kotaku's activities relative to the accusation being central to GG making the question of their usability of a source, and that's nowhere close to a BLP issue, that's a standard good question to ask about independence of sources. --MASEM (t) 18:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
@PeterTheFourth: That wasn't the question asked of whether the relationship's existence should involve WP's consideration of the source, but whether because Kotaku was criticized and was forced to respond to the situation around the disproven accusation of COI that gained further criticism from GG of them, how WP should treat that source. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning TheRedPenOfDoomStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by TheRedPenOfDoomThe insistence by Masem on trotting out and retrotting out and retrotting out the name of a living person in relation to an "ethical scandal" that 1) reliable sources from the beginning of the coverage have verified was never inappropriate action/scandal and 2) where even if there had been a scandal of inappropriate unethical the only person being named is the one who would have had zero agency in the commission of the ethical breach. It is unacceptable. That he is attempting to justify his actions by "But they were in a relationship!!!" as justification for repeatedly dragging someone's name as near as the mud as he can get it is disgusting. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by StrongjamThat's a pretty cut and dry BLP violation. It's not just unsourced, as you noted it's a false statement about an editor at Kotaku. Why would you restore it without correcting that first? — Strongjam (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by PeterTheFourthYou've provided a number of diffs you believe to contain 1RR violations- I may be wrong, but I don't believe the talk page for Gamergate controversy has a 1RR restriction, just the article itself (besides, removals due to BLP violations are exempt from revert restrictions.) PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning TheRedPenOfDoom
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – 19:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Article ban from Kombucha (you may still edit the talk page and are encouraged to do so) until 7:59 pm, 28 June 2015, this Sunday (6 days from now) (UTC−4)
- You have been sanctioned as this is second time you have edit warred on the article in the past week so this sanction will stop the edit warring and encourage discussion.
- Reason for the appeal
Callanecc has demonstrated an indisputable bias towards me and maintains a double standard. He automatically assumes that I am at fault without investigating the evidence. I am also requesting that this block be removed from the DS log, and that Callanecc recuse himself from future administrator interactions involving me.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Callanecc (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Statement by Atsme
History of bias and double standards
- Feb 10, 2015 - Callan imposes revert restriction on Griffin and simply warns editors involved in tag-teaming and reverting my edits.
- Feb 22, 2015 Callan advises another admin on how to prepare against me, clearly showing favoritism...if/when this eventually ends up at AE for someone to look through your edits and believe that Atsme was pushed or harangued through incivility or personal attacks on your part.
- Feb 23, 2015 Callan's summary and the RfC close which substantiated that my edits were indeed correct in removal of BLP violations even though I was repeatedly threatened and harassed by other editors, and also warned and told by Callan to drop the stick while he supported the position of the other editors who opposed me.
- April 20, 2015 6 weeks later, more of the same suggestive tone by Callan with reference to acting against me by taking a harder line (purposely mentioning STICK) while ignoring the false accusations of the OP. This is further indication of Callan's bias against me, and his double standards.
Inadvertent Emojis and 1st unwarranted ARB warning
- Callanecc's first ARB warning to me which was unwarranted
- March 11, 2015 Callan posts my first ever ARB warning (CAM) not long after consensus supported my position and problematic editors refused to abide by it - This edit is disruptive and is not commenting on the content but instead on the contributor.
- Other editors respond to Callan's DS warning
- March 12, 2015 An editor confirms other instances of double standard w/diffs to demonstrate.
- March 13, 2015 Another editor comments, Is that a joke, or are you actually threatened with prosecution for using an emoji?
- March 11, 2015 I asked Callan why I got the warning.
- March 12, 2015 Callan explains The pun regarding SPECIFICO's username and adding the rolling eyes are the bit which is uncivil.
- Note: I used specificolly instead of specifically in a harmless comment. The emojis were inadvertent and the result of a glitch in the emoji dashboard which I proved many times over before Callanecc would remove the warning.
- March 14, 2015 Explanation with diff from T13 about the emoji dashboard glitch.
- More evidence of bias and double standards
- Feb 16, 2015 Issues ARB warning to a very offensive editor (also an admin), then removes all trace of it from the DS log the next day. My warning remains as a strike-thru as evidenced below.
- March 12, 2015 Editor who previously cast aspersions against me now asks Callan to do more than just warn me. Callan responds with .... working from memory and my opinion of Atsme's conduct (which overall I haven't had a problem with).... Yet he issued an ARB warning for inadvertent emojis?
- March 12, 2015 I request help from Callan because other editors are casting aspersions.
- March 12, 2015 Explains warning, acknowledges aspersion but does not act on it. Asks me, Can you explain why you think it's casting aspersions, the only one I can see there which could be is the implication that editors are leaving the article because of you.
- March 12, 2015 Callan simply hides offending comment directed at me by the same user who caused me to get the ARB warning and is asking Callan for stricter penalties imposed against me.
- My warning remains on DS log with a strike through - more evidence of the bias and double standard considering he removed all traces of other editor's warning who was far more deserving of more than just a warning.
- Atsme (talk · contribs) warned for making a disruptive and uncivil edit on Talk:G. Edward Griffin. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:01, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
- Vacated following discussion on my talk page (see 1 & 2). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:51, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- March 14, 2015 Discusses my warning with other editor who repeatedly harassed me, and continued to ignore my requests for removal of the warning from the log, not unlike what is happening now in the Kombucha case.
- March 25, 2015 My response to Callan's discussion with now desysopped Dreadstar regarding Griffin and how he failed to accomplish what Callan wanted done with regards to me. (my bold for emphasis) Sorry Callanecc, I tried to help but apparently failed miserably. I'll keep an eye on the talk page of the article and try to keep it on the straight and narrow, but helping with the above editor is beyond my ability.
- The above exchange made me feel as though I have a target on my back, and that I'm fair game for the gamers who like to play games with human lives.
Current DS Block re: Kombucha
- June 21, 2015 Request to Callanecc to repeal the DS but my request was ignored; typical of our prior interactions.
- June 22, 2015 Callan's response is reminiscent of Griffin, not unlike what was happening at Kombucha. .....you need to get consensus before making large or contentious changes to articles, or if you have been reverted (especially more than one) barring things like WP:3RRNO you need to get consensus It was apparent to me that he didn't even bother to evaluate the situation, and the block was a knee jerk reaction based on his bias, double standard, and in support of some of the same editors that were involved at Griffin.
- Some of the noncompliant material I disputed at the article have been removed but the issues are ongoing.
- June 23, 2015 I provided a sequential list of diffs demonstrating my edits and attempts to remove noncompliant material (scientifically unsupported death claims) that is grossly noncompliant with our 3 core content policies and MEDRS. Instead, I was blocked for it.
- Article is PP by NeilN 23:48 June 20, 2015 Which should have been the initial action imposed by Callanecc instead of the block he imposed on me, clearly resulting from his past biases and ongoing double standards.
Response to Doc James
A wise admin and former ARBCOM member Someguy1221 explained Verifiability well: "In an encyclopedia built by volunteers, in which no real vetting of an individual's expert status is feasible, this policy simplifies discussion greatly. Instead of relying on debate over the validity of a fact or viewpoint, the debate focuses on the easier to tackle issue of whether it is verifiable. Even if experts could be vetted, this philosophy is still preferable. Allowing experts to run the show would merely invite them to introduce their personal biases into articles."
With the latter in mind, I can't help but consider the following with reference to MEDRS when Doc James stated: "This guidelines is malleable to accommodate poorly studied areas such as this one." June 22, 2015. The poorly studied area being kombucha, and the questioned source being a low quality, single author, 13 yr. old systematic journal review that Doc James green lighted for citing unsupported scientific claims of potential causality based on the poor reporting of a very small group of anecdotal case reports. No, this appeal isn't about my misunderstanding of MEDRS as Doc James is trying to make it appear - it's about my refusal to accept his suggestion that MEDRS guidelines are malleable. My first obligation when writing any article is to maintain compliance with NPOV, Verifiability, and NOR, and in the case of health and/or food articles, to strictly adhere to MEDRS which clearly conflicts with malleable, particularly when citing material regarding human health. I remember how, 2 mos ago, I was castigated by certain members of Proj Med for once referring to MEDRS as a guideline, not a policy, when writing my first essay. The words, "strict adherence", were tattooed on my posterior. A group of Proj Med editors immediately requested the essays deletion, partly because they felt it didn't show enough respect for MEDRS when I wrote "follow" MEDRS guidelines instead of treating it more like policy with strict adherence. The new essay WP:AVDUCK now reads "requires close attention" but based on current events, I should probably update it to read, MEDRS, the malleable guideline. And the irony - here I am now appealing a block for having respected MEDRS. Atsme 03:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Callanecc
Statement by User:Doc James
It was a good top ban. This user by comments like this is struggling with respect to proper interpretation of the WP:MEDRS guideline . And unfortunately this has been ongoing for a couple of weeks at least. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Atsme
Result of the appeal by Atsme
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll point out that the DS is not a block, but a TBAN (for 7-days). - Penwhale | 23:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Eric Corbett
Eric Corbett was blocked by User:GorillaWarfare for violating an Arbcom remedy/sanction. R. Baley (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Eric Corbett
Discussion concerning Eric CorbettStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Eric CorbettStatement by GregJackPJesus Christ, he made a single comment on his own talk page. Leave him be. Or is he so influential that Misplaced Pages is going to riot over his comment? GregJackP Boomer! 21:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Andy DingleyWhat possible benefit is served by this, other than allowing whoever posted it to boost their feeble sense of self-worth? Andy Dingley (talk) 5:22 pm, Today (UTC−5) Statement by CassiantoThe devil makes work for idle thumbs. Utterly pointless and tantamount to harassment of Eric. Some people clearly have too much time on their hands. Cassianto 22:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by SagaciousphilThis is a pointless petty action and has no benefit to Misplaced Pages whatsoever. In fact, as I am a British female (yes, I know all the "vocal American feminists" will no doubt spit, hiss and create the usual drama at this: "British" and "female" appear to equate to "non entity" and/or "idiot" or of "no importance", "not worthy of any consideration" as far as the vociferous, vocal few are concerned.) Over the last couple of weeks on Misplaced Pages I have been subjected to pornographic images, been left "barnstars" advising me to have a poisoned drink, seen messages that advocated I should get cancer and die, as well as being the target of a particularly persistent POV pushing editor. Who has been the main person who has tried to encourage me to see past all the c*ap, helped, advised and been one of the few voices of support and reason? Certainly not any members of the Gender Gap Task Force or those who claim to be advocating Civility ... no, the editor who has particularly helped, enticed and encouraged is Eric. SagaciousPhil - Chat 23:22, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Konveyor BeltReally? I think EvergreenFir could find a more productive way to help Misplaced Pages than hounding Eric's posts for slight references to the GGTF. KonveyorBelt 23:54, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Darwinian ApeI have no idea why this user got a topic ban, but I find watching his every move and reporting even the slightest violation of his topic ban much more concerning than this minor breach. WP:WIKIHOUNDING is never a good thing. Darwinian Ape 00:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by Davey2010Seems someone has too much time on there hands!, Stop wasting the communities time and find something better to do that doesn't involve following Eric like a lap dog. –Davey2010 00:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by FloqSuppose they gave a drama and no one came? --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC) Statement by HiaBIt's a wikilawyered and frivolous sanction. EC has never in my knowledge treated any editor differently because of their sex. I would note the irony of the "harassment" (at least as defined by others in GGTF) he is undergoing and it is a minor sort for sure, but out of all the people who "know" harassment most are quite content to visit it on other people or their conceived opponents. I'm sure he'll be blocked and eventually down the line it will be wiki-lawyered into a site ban. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 01:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC) Result concerning Eric Corbett
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