Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:14, 27 June 2015

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to climate change, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

Misdirected

I believe it is wrong to direct this to climate change denial, it implies to people they are the same. It is a pity there is no really good article on this but I think one of the following is probably better

Global warming controversy

Public opinion on climate change

Climate change consensus

I think Global warming controversy is probably the most appropriate target. Dmcq (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, and have redirected to Global warming controversy. --Pete Tillman (talk) 15:18, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

...That post was from 4 years ago, and Dmcq no longer holds that position.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

As the climate change denial now discusses in some detail, the labels generally apply to the same thing. It's implied that there may be some instances where a Climate change skeptic doesn't come under the heading of denial, but specific examples are lacking and that's something to resolve on the climate change denial article with good sources. There certainly doesn't seem to be enough difference to justify what could easily become a povfork. . . dave souza, talk 18:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Mann jess says Dmcq has changed position, so I hereby ping@Dmcq: for confirmation. If it's true, that still doesn't justify Mann jess overriding two other editors and making the all-too-typical accusation that an editor who disagrees is edit warring. As for discussing this on the climate change denial article -- no, I can see by the title of this talk page that this is the talk page for what the contents of the climate change skepticism skeptic article should be. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

See here. I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to mean. I also see no attempt on your part to actually discuss the dispute or respond to others. Climate change denial discusses "climate change skepticism" explicitly by name. Why would it not be the appropriate target?   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Your accusation "no attempt to actually discuss" is false. As for the difficulty understanding what I said: perhaps it's because I said "skepticism" rather than "skeptic", I've now corrected my earlier post. Trying to put it more simply: this is the talk page "Talk:Climate change skeptic", therefore this is an place to talk about proposed changes to the article "Climate change skeptic". Peter Gulutzan (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Jess, consensus appears to be against you, in your continued attempts to override the long-standing consensus that climate-skeptical topics are best redirected to global warming controversy. Not only that, you have accused an editor of edit-warring at his first appearance here, diff. Perhaps you should look in the mirror?

You requested a reply to the substance of why editors object to your poposal. Try following Global warming scepticism. The first line at the redirect (to CC Denial) says,

This article is about campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change. ...

Not a neutral redirect! Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This isn't a question of neutrality. It's a question of what article discusses the topic. Climate change denial discusses this topic, does it not? The words "climate change skepticism" are bolded in the 2nd sentence of the lead. Your assessment of consensus is obviously incorrect; unfortunately, this discussion is taking place on about 5 separate talk pages, and in none of them has a relevant objection been raised. If you dislike the wording of the hatnote, you should discuss that on the article where it appears.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This assesment is entirely incorrect and smacks of tendentious editing, evidenced by the edit warring against multiple editors. It is clearly not a neutral redirect. It is disrupting in order to make a point. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you please respond to what I'm actually saying? Does climate change denial discuss the topic of "climate change skepticism" or not? Pointing to WP:NPOV isn't a rationale for redirecting to the wrong topic.   — Jess· Δ♥ 03:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The onus is upon you to achieve consensus for your proposed edit. Multiple editors do not presently agree that you are correct in your edit. They have expressed why. While avoiding WP:SOAPBOX, it is incumbent upon you to explain why this edit is a better redirect. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The strategy I've seen repeatedly from now several editors of shouting loudly there is no consensus, meanwhile dodging any attempts to discuss or achieve consensus, is beyond unhelpful. This isn't a vote. Please address the points being made. Does climate change denial discuss the topic of "climate change skepticism"? Yes or no.   — Jess· Δ♥ 03:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

• With respect, that makes no sense. Regardless, you clearly don't have consensus here, and NPOV isn't optional. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

What doesn't make sense? The question is fairly straight forward. Does the article climate change denial discuss "climate change skepticism"?   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Pete, your preferred in-universe option clearly doesn't have consensus, and it's a good question: WP:R#PLA applies. . .dave souza, talk 19:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I actually agree with Dave that WP:R#PLA applies here. I would strongly suggest that skeptic and denial is not the same thing. This edit is POV and the and the editwarring has essentially acknowledged it. The purpose is to deprecate skeptic into denial (described at that article as ignoring the Truth based on financial or ideological reasons). That is to say this edit seeks to push readers looking for a neutral article on "skeptic" towards an article that talks about (financially or idologically corrupt) deniers. Hardly NPOV and a redirect that would be of great surprise to an ordinary reader. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

By the way, the idea that the denial article has a small section on skeptic doesn't mitigate the NPOV problem or the WP:R#PLA guideline in my opinion. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

So here's the problem... you apparently dislike our treatment of this topic on the appropriate page, and so therefore want to redirect somewhere else instead. That's not a valid rationale. Climate change denial doesn't have a "small section"; the entire article is devoted to the topic, which is introduced in the very second sentence, by name, in bold. Sources back up that coverage, and "neutrality" means following the sources. No one is saying that "climate change denial" and "climate change skepticism" are precisely the same thing; we are saying that this article discusses this topic in depth, so it is obviously the correct target. Your dislike of our content should be discussed at its talk page, and you're welcome to propose the article be split in two, provided you can back up the change in reliable sources. In the meantime, we have to direct our readers to the right place. If they arrive at climate change denial mistakenly, we have a hatnote linking global warming controversy at the very top, so they can easily find their way to that article as well. In short, "article X isn't neutral" doesn't mean we can misdirect everything that links to it, instead of fixing the underlying neutrality problem (if there even is one).   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

So here's the problem...this is an article talk page where we discuss the article. This is not where we discuss editors. Please WP:FOC focus on content not on battlegrounding with other editors. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Huh? Where did I discuss an editor? Your rationale was that the hatnote at the appropriate page does not encapsulate the topic, right? If so, then change the hatnote. If not, then you need to be clear what your objection really is.   — Jess· Δ♥ 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

• There's an ongoing problem at Climate change denial, with a recent effort to equate skeptics to deniers. That is also (imo) a NPOV problem, but it's separate from what we're talking about here. Pete Tillman (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Is all skepticism an organized campaign? Is it unequivocally denial?

If skepticism unequivocally denial (campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change) then we must have the redirect point at the denial article.

If it is not, if skepticism is related to legitimate debate or skepiticism then we must per WP:R#PLA direct it towards global warming controversy. From the top of the denial page ("This article is about campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change. For the public debate over scientific conclusions, see global warming controversy.") That sums up the issue. If all skeptism is part of a sinister campaign, if all debate or skepticism about the issue is merely an effort to "undermine public confidence" then by all means we must redirect this towards the denial article. Otherwise we should point it towards the public debate article. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Your dislike of the hatnote should be discussed on Talk:Climate change denial, where they're using the hatnote. It's not relevant here. The only question here is: "what article discusses this topic?" Does Global warming controversy discuss "climate change skepticism"? Because that term doesn't appear in the article even once.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't dislike the hatnote. I embrace the hatenote. Projecting imagined motivations and emotions onto other editors is entirely wrong..."to assume is to make an ..." Please WP:FOC focus on content. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS We can discuss whatever is appropriate for this article per the guidelines applicable to this article. Efforts to close off and end discussion is inappropriate. It also cleverly addresses none of the points above. Redirect guidelines and application of them are directly relevant here. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)