Revision as of 22:19, 30 June 2015 view sourceFreeRangeFrog (talk | contribs)34,528 edits →User:JosephBarbero: re:← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:20, 30 June 2015 view source Count Iblis (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers12,827 edits →Proposal to Topic-Ban User:Count Iblis from Reference DeskNext edit → | ||
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*'''Support''' - per Dennis and AndyTheGrump. ] (]) 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC) | *'''Support''' - per Dennis and AndyTheGrump. ] (]) 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC) | ||
*'''Support''' topic-bannning Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice against consensus. I do not support any lesser restrictions that still allow Count Iblis to edit at the Reference Desk; that would simply simply allow him to explore new and innovative ways of being disruptive. --] (]) 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC) | *'''Support''' topic-bannning Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice against consensus. I do not support any lesser restrictions that still allow Count Iblis to edit at the Reference Desk; that would simply simply allow him to explore new and innovative ways of being disruptive. --] (]) 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC) | ||
It seems that Count Iblis is now posting as an IP and giving medical advice yet again, ]. ] (]) 22:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
== User:JosephBarbero == | == User:JosephBarbero == |
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Antifeminism
I've been trying to improve the Antifeminism article, because I think the current one is very bad for many reasons (it's very biased in tone, it doesn't accurately reflect its sources, and it's sloppy in general). There has been a huge resistance to this from a few editors though, who clearly want to leave the article in its current state, are unwilling to work cooperatively, and instead dismiss all criticism I have of it as original research, which lacks sources. Now I've tried to explain to them repeatedly that I disagree with this, because the criticism I had was criticism of the article, not of which information it should contain, or which sources it should use. They completely ignore this though, and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
Now I've been trying to assume good faith, and kept assuming that they were misreading what I wrote, but it's getting so weird that it's becoming really difficult to maintain this. See this thread ], and especially Fyddlestix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) second reply. The section was about something I removed, because it was unsourced, but which got reverted back. I tried to discuss this, and explain why it wasn't supported by the sources, but instead they went on pretending that I was trying to add information, which wasn't supported by sources. There's just no way that such a reply can be made in good faith to the what I wrote above it. It's becoming clear enough that they're just intentionally being impossible, probably either to frustrate me to a point where I would give up, or provoke me into questioning their intelligence, so that they can block me over personal attacks.Didaev (talk) 17:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- This appears to be basically a content dispute, although it may be complicated by stubbornness and incivility. I suggest that you ask for formal mediation. A mediator may be able to get the parties to explain and work on their differences. If the other editors do not agree to formal mediation, then the next step for dealing with conduct issues would be Arbitration Enforcement under the gender-related sanctions under WP:ARBGG. But I suggest that mediation be tried. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- I see this less as a content dispute and more as a problem of disruptive editing on Diadaev's part. This user has been lobbying for changes to the article on Antifeminism for a couple of weeks, but their talk page posts are based on their own subjective opinions & reasoning, rather than on RS (this is probably the worst example). They've been prodded for sources and asked to stop making subjective arguments several times, and they've been given a formal warning for failure to cite sources and disruptive editing.
- In the comment Didaev refers to above, I was simply trying to impress upon them the importance of citing sources - I was hoping that engaging with some sources might refocus the conversation and make it less subjective. But Diadev has chosen to raise the matter here rather than do that. So I don't see how mediation is going to help unless Didaev is willing to make some sourced, non-subjective arguments. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- On the one hand, a mediator would insist on citing sources. On the other hand, if User:Didaev is ignoring advice to cite sources, then that may be good-faith editing that is nonetheless disruptive editing. If this is seen as a conduct dispute, it is my experience that Arbitration Enforcement works more efficiently than this noticeboard. Has Didaev been notified of gender-related discretionary sanctions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- Good point, it looks like they hadn't been warned about the DS. I added the warning just now. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Surely Didaev is editing in good faith, but unfortunately is still not getting the point about how all of our work on the article must be based on the summarization of reliable sources. Didaev is offering criticisms of the article which are personal criticisms. This is not helping the situation at all. What is needed is for Didaev to refer to reliable published sources when making arguments about what to change in the antifeminism article. Until that happens there's not much influence that Didaev can have on the article. Lacking any leverage based on what is found in the literature, the talk page complaints by Didaev are ultimately disruptive. Binksternet (talk) 03:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the 'reliable source' doctrine is being abused here to skew the page towards a particular point of view. On the original discussion page, Binksternet et. al. have explicitly stated their belief that the only valid sources of information about "antifeminism" are feminist scholars. This must lead to a one-sided characterization. JudahH (talk) 05:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- Surely Didaev is editing in good faith, but unfortunately is still not getting the point about how all of our work on the article must be based on the summarization of reliable sources. Didaev is offering criticisms of the article which are personal criticisms. This is not helping the situation at all. What is needed is for Didaev to refer to reliable published sources when making arguments about what to change in the antifeminism article. Until that happens there's not much influence that Didaev can have on the article. Lacking any leverage based on what is found in the literature, the talk page complaints by Didaev are ultimately disruptive. Binksternet (talk) 03:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure that's a fair characterization - as far as I've seen, no one has argued that feminist scholars are "the only valid sources of information" about anti-feminism. Rather, they've argued that there just isn't all that much (or any) academic literature about antifeminism itself that takes a "pro" antifeminist perspective. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
- JudahH, that's a load of bollocks and you likely know it. You are misrepresenting the opinions of Binkster&co, and doing so badly, both here and elsewhere, to the point that my ability to AGF is rather stretched. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Try not to view everything through biased glasses, Kevin. If you're finding it hard to assume good faith, it's probably because you started out assuming bad faith instead. I've been polite and constructive in my (attempted) contributions to that article; just because I don't share your politics doesn't mean I'm trying to vandalize the page.
- Here's a direct quotation if you need one: "Feminist scholars are a very highly respected source of information. Scholars in general are what we look for when a topic is difficult to define. There's no problem with referencing feminist scholars who are in fact the ones who study antifeminism the most. Basically, the only scholars of antifeminism are feminist scholars."
- Premise 1: Scholars are what we look for as sources a topic such as this, in preference to other sources.
- Premise 2: Only feminist scholars on this topic exist.
- Conclusion: We look for feminist scholars as sources on this topic, in preference to other sources.
- Whether the reasons for preferring "scholars" are sound or not, the outcome to relying primarily on them given these premises is an article written from a single point of view, rather than a balanced one.JudahH (talk) 04:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Your logic is faulty. The conclusion is not that feminist scholars are looked for in preference to other sources. We do look for scholars in preference to other sources generally speaking, and it is the case that a majority of scholars and other high quality sources writing about antifeminism do so from a pro-feminist standpoint. That is not at all necessarily a problem. Misplaced Pages doesn't shoot for some sort of vacuum point of view. If a majority of high quality sources about a subject reflect a certain perspective, than a properly written Misplaced Pages is likely to as well. That's a feature, not a bug. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The conclusion in this particular case is that feminist scholars are looked for in preference to non-feminist sources—perhaps not because they're feminist, but the outcome remains the same. Re this being a feature, I respectfully disagree with you. If all of the sources used on a topic reflect a particular perspective, even if they are high-quality sources, the article is skewed because there are high-quality sources on one perspective but no sources for the other perspective. Rather, we should represent both perspectives from the best sources available. I further disagree that academic sources are necessarily better than primary sources—i.e. people's direct characterizations of their ideologies in their own words, but that's the less important point, I think. JudahH (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You may disagree with it, but it is explicitly a feature of Misplaced Pages. Our articles are intended to "represent.. fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Further policies emphasize that in doing so, we should consider the quality of a source, and avoid giving equal validity to all apparent viewpoints. You might disagree with any of these things, but they are all long established features of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages, as a project rejected the idea of sympathetic point of view long long ago. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is what I mean by "abuse" of Misplaced Pages's policies—maybe I should look for a more neutral word than that, but the claim that the only sources of significance on a political topic are the ones from a particular side basically favors one viewpoint over the other. This is not a neutral point of view. You sound like you're comparing one whole side of a political debate to "flat earthers" or something. Again, there's a vast difference between the opinions of academic scientists on a topic of science and the opinions of academic feminists about the views held by their opponents. The whole point of NPOV, as I've understood it is that when it comes to divisive issues that editors can't come to consensus about, the fairest approach is to give and source the views of both sides, and let the reader draw his conclusions. Not to refuse to even offer the viewpoint of one side on the pretense that it has never been described by so-called "valid" sources. JudahH (talk) 05:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You may disagree with it, but it is explicitly a feature of Misplaced Pages. Our articles are intended to "represent.. fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Further policies emphasize that in doing so, we should consider the quality of a source, and avoid giving equal validity to all apparent viewpoints. You might disagree with any of these things, but they are all long established features of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages, as a project rejected the idea of sympathetic point of view long long ago. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The conclusion in this particular case is that feminist scholars are looked for in preference to non-feminist sources—perhaps not because they're feminist, but the outcome remains the same. Re this being a feature, I respectfully disagree with you. If all of the sources used on a topic reflect a particular perspective, even if they are high-quality sources, the article is skewed because there are high-quality sources on one perspective but no sources for the other perspective. Rather, we should represent both perspectives from the best sources available. I further disagree that academic sources are necessarily better than primary sources—i.e. people's direct characterizations of their ideologies in their own words, but that's the less important point, I think. JudahH (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's the issue of whether academic sources exist on the other side, see WP:GEVAL. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't see this comment when I added the two paragraphs below, but the first one was basically addressing your point, Ian. I see a fundamental difference between more or less objective questions of science or fact, where it's reasonable to give academics the authority, and questions of people's political views, where subjectivity reigns, and being an academic doesn't mean that one should be the only source used to characterize political views that he disagrees with. I would add, that this is a case where using primary sources would be entirely reasonable, I believe, as no inferences need to be drawn from them—simply the statement that "such and such political group describes its aims so and so". JudahH (talk) 05:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- edit: I should add that there's a difference, IMO, between an article about, say, some contested fact of science, where the academic perspective can be reasonably assumed to generally have more validity than the less academic ones, and an article about people's political views, where being an academic does not make one more of an authority on the opinions of some group of people than belonging to that group.
- I should also add that I'm not editing in bad faith here, and I believe that as long as we clarify what we're talking about, we can come to a consensus that everyone is happy with. As I just commented on that article's talk page, I believe that the root reason this article has been provoking such strong opinions is that it currently covers entire ranges of ideologies (antifeminism, and, by implication, feminism) as if they were a single, even an organized ideology. This gives rise to misleading implications about both sides.
- Respectfully yours, JudahH (talk) 04:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Didaev is a new user and an 100% single purpose account — they've edited only Antifeminism and its talkpage. It does look like they've come here to right great wrongs, and I will consider a topic ban if they should persist with their agenda to the point of disrupting the talkpage. However, there's no need for anything like that yet, as they haven't edited since receiving the discretionary sanctions alert. Perhaps they're thinking about it and will return more willing to listen to experienced editors. Well, see the optimist's guide to Misplaced Pages, I suppose, but it never hurts to assume the best, especially of new users. Bishonen | talk 12:11, 22 June 2015 (UTC).
User: Stemoc
After continually being reverted by this user, I've decided that it would be best to take this to the Administrator noticeboard. Over the past several months, the user Stemoc has continually reverted my edits, for the sole reason of being disruptive. I think their latest statement made in an edit summary clearly states that they do not wish to act in a civil manner, and simply wish to violate Misplaced Pages policy outlined at WP:HOUNDING. The edit summary stated "UNDO long-term cross wiki vandal POV pusher whop uses the wiki for "self promotion"." This has continually been his reason, no matter the situation, in this case it was the addition of a different photo on the Donald Trump article which is non-controversial. (Note: There was a previous discussion at 3RR where it was agreed that I would not add photos that have already been uploaded for the sole reason of having my name in the title of the image, which I have ceased from doing. I have not broken this warning so that should not be part of this discussion.) But regardless, the user still seems to want to continue to revert my edits across several different projects, and was told to stop previously.
In a calm, measured response to a comment I left on his talk page, part of his response was to "stop acting like a pompous cry baby.." His edit summary here also indicates his unwillingness to act in a civil manner, and simply to be disruptive and revert edits without discussion. Quoting directly from WP:Wikihounding, "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." As recent as a few moments ago, the user began participating in a discussion I created in order to gain a consensus on which image would be best at Jeb Bush. The user then personally attacked me stating "its Not a Communist regime either so we won't keep using your poor images all the time" to a comment I left in a related section where people began voting, despite policy that states Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. In that discussion, it was found that a different image was best to use, and I did not revert or try to disrupt that decision.
The user has had similar complaints left on his talk page, after he told another user to "get glasses" when trying to add a photo he uploaded in this instance. Here is part of the exchange...
“ | No you LISTEN, you are the ONLY PERSON in the WHOLE of WIKIPEDIA that has a problem with the GOOD IMAGE being used. I tried solving it amicably but you decide to change the IMAGE again for the UMPTEENTH TIME, you REFUSE to a have ANY DISCUSSION but continuously KEEP changing the image, the post to have a discussion BARELY lasted 48 hours BEFORE you changed the IMAGE yet AGAIN... You are a VANDAL and I will NOW REPORT you....I wrote those in CAPS LOCK cause you seem to be blind or something ... | ” |
If that isn't a case against WP:Civility then I don't know what is. He has been warned for his uncivil behavior several times already, and yet they just ignore it and begin writing in uppercase and attempting shame others from editing. It also seems that he is doing the same thing that he accuses me of, as he is adding his own uploaded images to articles, without any sort of discussion, whether controversial or not, and most of the time without a reason given in his edit summary. I highly suggest reviewing his edit history, and his talk page.
Other violations that I believe he has made are outlined at WP:Disruptive editing, in response to this comment after I reverted him for reverting me because I made the edit, "Either follow our policies or LEAVE". That statement alone violates #6, which states "Campaign to drive away productive contributors: act counter to policies and guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles." I would also argue he is acting in a tendentious manner based on his recent edits alone.
Again, if this isn't a case of someone overstepping the line of civility, engaging in disruptive editing, campaigning to drive away productive contributors, and intentionally hounding someone's specific edits, then I don't know what is.
Here are links to edits where the user has reverted me in a hounding manner.
Calibrador (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Expect an accusational response from the user being reported saying that I'm adding my own photos as self promotion. This is not the case, and is not a violation of any policy anyway. As of recent, I have made sure to include clear edit summaries stating why I am changing a specific image, and created discussions in order to come to a consensus on which image would be preferred. Stemoc is simply acting in a disruptive manner no matter what discussion takes place, and no matter what my edit summary reasoning was for changing a specific image. Calibrador (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Before I begin, please remember that User:Calibrador was previously known as Gage Skidmore and he changed his name yesterday just so that he can knowingly continue to enforce his images into articles without setting off any alarm bells..Infact, just before changing his name, his last few edits involved enforcing his own images into articles and right after usurpation, he continues to do the same. The use has over the years continually used wikipedia for WP:SELFPROMOTION to an extent of removing better images for his own poor ones just so that he can use wikipedia to promote himself financially. The Quote he linked above was to another editor that is available on my talk page and it has already been solved "amicably" but he has linked it here trying to make people think that my comment was targeted at him..... I'm not in the habit of REMOVING other people's comments about him removing other images and replacing them with his.. He even threatened me on Wikimedia Commons to not upload his images from flickr which are under a free licence and as per Commons policy can be uploaded for use on wikipedia...The user has a long history of violation WP:COI and just by going through the users contribution history here, it will all be made clear. I'm NOT Hounding the user as he claims, I just found his "vandalism" unbearable and decided to take action by reverting them as he refuses to follow policies in regards to discussing his changes. Its either HIS images be USED on those articles or NO IMAGES and he will blatantly revert anyone else who decides to use a less controversial or better image...WP:CIVIL goes both ways and if admins refuse to warn and discipline this user who has previously been reported here in May, then this will be ongoing. The user is abusing our Terms of Use as was discussed in May on my talk page. He may not be a paid editor but he is using Misplaced Pages for Financial gain and that is against one of our policies as photographers get paid for the use of their images as tou can see here and quote
“ | Gage Skidmore is a professional photographer currently based in the Phoenix metropolitan area. He began his career covering politics in 2009, covering the U.S. Senate campaign of ophthalmologist Rand Paul. Since then, he has been involved with a variety of organizations and campaigns, including the Arizona Chamber of Commerce & Industry, ASU Center for Political Thought & Leadership, Campaign for Liberty Foundation, Reason Magazine, Western Center for Journalism, and has been published in the Washington Post, Associated Press, Politico, and Forbes.
Media/business inquiries: gtskidmore@hotmail.com |
” |
If wikimedia blatantly allows someone to use the site to serve their personal monetary gain then this is not a place I want to be...I have been fighting Spammers and vandals across wikimedia since 2007 and users like him are the worst as they can usually get away with it..........oh and ofcourse you are Gage, do NOT deny it cause whats worse than violators are those that blatantly lie about it--Stemoc 13:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please do not attempt to destroy my character, you are getting very close to libel with your false accusations. I have never made a penny from my involvement with Misplaced Pages. Your response also screams a great level of paranoia. Calibrador (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- False accusation?, you accuse me of WP:HOUNDing you and when i point out that you are using WIKIPEDIA for your own personal MONETARY gain, I'm destroying your character?. You Intentionally enforce your images so that you can tell your "clients" about you work using Misplaced Pages as a reference for your OWN personal and monetary gain and when users remove your pics and replace or update it with one that is BETTER, you revert them cause you want ONLY your images with you name at the END of every image name because you are a humanitarian and you love wikipedia and you are helping the wiki out of the goodness of your heart?, is thats what you are telling me?....Never made a a penny, who do you think uses all the images that get added to wikipedia?, newsites and other websites and I won't be surprised if they pay you for the use of the images, oh and lets not forget, free publicity..Just admit it and stop lying please....--Stemoc 14:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- None of what you just wrote is true, I suggest you just stop please. Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also I'd suggest acting more Civil instead of using Caps lock to imply shouting on the administrator noticeboard. Calibrador (talk) 14:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Stemoc, it's not clear to me how Calibrador is financially benefiting from Misplaced Pages. You link to his Flickr bio it doesn't refer to Misplaced Pages at all. And then you reference an article where not only is Misplaced Pages not mentioned but it states
he posts all of his photos to Flickr under a Creative Commons license, making them available free of charge as long as he’s credited.
and only charges for-profit publications for his work. - I can see how you could make an argument that Calibrador prefers using photos he has taken over other photos but you haven't presented evidence that he is financially benefiting from donating his photos to Misplaced Pages. Liz 14:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- That is how publicity works Liz, let put it this way, his images get noticed, he gets called up by someone famous and they ask him to do a 'photoshoot" for which he gets paid and at the same time he has to insure he gets noticed, Flickr is now ranked 130 odd but Misplaced Pages is STILL one of the top 10 websites in the world, so where are you more likely to get noticed?..Previously, when adding image a to articles, he used to add his name into the captions in infoboxes as well..just search through his edits in 2014 and you will find it which is how i actually noticed him in the first place..--Stemoc 15:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- I never did that, and I have never booked a photo shoot with anyone. How many times do you have to be told to stop making false accusations? Calibrador (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have mentioned it on my talk page many times that i use Caps and Bold for "emphasis" only on certain words, I'm not "Shouting"..and also why would you even accept what i said is fact because if it is , and I know it is, it means you have been violating our policies for years and have been getting away with it and you got your named changed just so that its not directly seen as a WP:COI which it is.Note: I havea shitty internet conenct adn moving to https has MADE IT WORSE so i cannot reply here anymore, i have already had 16 edit conflicts on this thread, please take anything else regarding me to to my talk page..I'm unable to post on pages larger than 150kbs (my net speed on enwiki is about 8kbps)--Stemoc 14:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- You also used caps on your talk page once because someone "needs to get glasses." Calibrador (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- That is how publicity works Liz, let put it this way, his images get noticed, he gets called up by someone famous and they ask him to do a 'photoshoot" for which he gets paid and at the same time he has to insure he gets noticed, Flickr is now ranked 130 odd but Misplaced Pages is STILL one of the top 10 websites in the world, so where are you more likely to get noticed?..Previously, when adding image a to articles, he used to add his name into the captions in infoboxes as well..just search through his edits in 2014 and you will find it which is how i actually noticed him in the first place..--Stemoc 15:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- None of what you just wrote is true, I suggest you just stop please. Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- A month ago I reported
GageCalibrador at ANEW so I'm not the only one to have an issue although since that report I've simply given up with the image-removal as I knew one way or another I'd end up being blocked, I still believeGageCalibrador is using the image-titles as a way to promote himself. –Davey2010 14:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since that discussion, I have agreed to use edit summaries, discuss, and come to a consensus when changing an image is seen as controversial. Calibrador (talk) 14:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- That's great but the image thing is still an issue - No one would have an issue with your uploads if you just uploaded them as say "X at X.jpg" but surely you can see adding your name on the end of every image you upload does come across as self promotion and people are bound to have an issue with that. –Davey2010 14:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- I would note that I do not even link to my Flickr when I upload my own photos, like when others upload my images. If anything Stemoc is the one promoting my photos. Calibrador (talk) 14:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm NOT promoting your images, I'm giving you "attribution" which is according to Commons policy regarding image uploads, so this is "attribution" as I have not only uploaded one of your images but given you credit as well as added the image to your private category, there is no need for me to do that but i do it nevertheless cause i go by the rules and follow the policies, you don't...your image uploads are always promotional--Stemoc 15:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- Calibrador, you are adding photos with file names such as "William Lee Golden by Gage Skidmore.jpg". If you are a professional photographer, I think such file names are advertising your work. Many professional do contribute some of their images to WP, and in a sense it may be a form of advertising , because they are attributed in the meta data--but we have always regarded this as not just permissible, but a good incentive to get some high quality images. However, putting your professional identity in the file name does not seem like a good idea. I do not work all that much with images,and I do not know if it is against our rules for images, but I personally think that it certainly should be. If you want to avoid accusations of promotionalism, you might want to go back and rename them. DGG ( talk ) 03:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- False accusation?, you accuse me of WP:HOUNDing you and when i point out that you are using WIKIPEDIA for your own personal MONETARY gain, I'm destroying your character?. You Intentionally enforce your images so that you can tell your "clients" about you work using Misplaced Pages as a reference for your OWN personal and monetary gain and when users remove your pics and replace or update it with one that is BETTER, you revert them cause you want ONLY your images with you name at the END of every image name because you are a humanitarian and you love wikipedia and you are helping the wiki out of the goodness of your heart?, is thats what you are telling me?....Never made a a penny, who do you think uses all the images that get added to wikipedia?, newsites and other websites and I won't be surprised if they pay you for the use of the images, oh and lets not forget, free publicity..Just admit it and stop lying please....--Stemoc 14:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Let me first say that e might have gone a bit off-track. However, having your name in the file name is not against any policies or guidelines (ot terms for that metter). If I wanted I could name a file "File:X at Y (thank you C0mpany Z for this great event).jpg" and intentionally advertise, but that alone isn't proof of any wrongdoing. (In the Creative Commons terms however there is a clause about "titles of works" and that they should be used. If the creator wishes they be names one way...)
Back to the issue at hand regarding if Cometstyles Stemoc is violating multiple policies on civility, I would say that this is a clear case. Even if the edits are somehow justified, they are HOUNDing in nature. This should not be acceptable. (There should be a clause like this in 3RR regarding reverting over multiple articles...) (t) Josve05a (c) 04:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- Its Ok to do that to a few image but that uploader has added more than 8000 images with that byline, just do a simple "by Gage Skidmore" on commons if you don't believe me. This is PROMOTIONAL. When someone adds an article about themselves or add links to their private websites, they are straightaway reverted, warned and in severr cases BLOCKED for spamming..this is one form of spamming..we may have different rules for articles and images but they both have the same outcome...The problem isn't the use of "by Gage Skidmore" tag in all his images, the problem is intentionally replacing other better and current images with his own on MAJOR article to boost his own stand and even without discussion as one user pointed above about the lack of using 'edit summaries'. Josve05, you are aware of my involvement in cross-wiki related spamming and vandalism and there isn't a day where i do NOT delete spamming on the 2 wikis i have adminship on....I see this as "blatant promotional/spamming" and though my involvement on enwikipedia has been limited since i returned (my own choosing), I will NOT turn a blind eye to it cause you may not see it as such but its blatant abuse of our policies....and again, reverting someone who keeps violating our policies does not make me a "Wiki HOUNDER"..I'm reverting what i see as blatant vandalism..the user has even gone to an extent of getting his name changed to make it easier to add his images without anyone pointing fingers..it would be nice if admins did their job as this user has been brought to this board now 3 times over the last 2 months and still has not faced any consequences to this actions...--Stemoc 14:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is a case of "everyone but myself" is at fault, and I'm a "social warrior" for trying to save Misplaced Pages from something that is not against the rules, and I'll keep link WP:Selfpromotion, even though none of what is mentioned on that page applies. Could an admin please weigh in on this situation so that falsehoods aren't spread again? Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- The self promotion policy may see to be only related for articles but it applies to everything on wikimedia, self PROMOTION is self promotion, either your promote yourself, your company, your interests or your stuff, its Promotion and by deliberately removing other people images with yours IS self promotion...Do I need to make this any more clear?..--Stemoc 15:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think this is a case of "everyone but myself" is at fault, and I'm a "social warrior" for trying to save Misplaced Pages from something that is not against the rules, and I'll keep link WP:Selfpromotion, even though none of what is mentioned on that page applies. Could an admin please weigh in on this situation so that falsehoods aren't spread again? Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I would note that Stemoc is also currently reported at 3RR for reverting one of the articles five times within a 24 hour span. They were also warned by an admin for harassment. Calibrador (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- and more lies, I was neither "warned " by an admin (toonlucas22 is not an admin) but it was a mistake on his part as he was not aware of this thread nor the previous identity of Calibrador and on the 3RR one which Gage Skidmore linked above...and also, I have not violated 3RRand nor do I intend too..--Stemoc 15:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- I never said I'm an admin. I just came as an uninvolved editor. --TL22 (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- That part was my mistake, I thought he was an admin. I do have to correct the false statement that was made about 3RR, though, as Stemoc reverted an article to their version five times in a row, within (approximately) a 24 hour span. It was just slightly outside the window, but still applies. Calibrador (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- I never said I'm an admin. I just came as an uninvolved editor. --TL22 (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Yikes! Bbb23 just brought the hammer down on both Stemoc and Calibrador for 24 hours at WP:ANEW... I'm guessing this one can (and probably should) be closed now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to keep this open until Stemoc and Calibrador return from their 24 hour blocks. I'd like to hear some proposals, as there's potentially an issue with Calibrador's behaviour, and in turn there's definitely an issue with Stemoc's behaviour. It would be good to get it sorted out with the minimum of fuss, rather than just closing this thread and having a repeat with either Stemoc or another user raising similar complaints in the next few days and weeks. I'd think the sensible suggestion here would be that Calibrador is either restricted from removing an existing image from a page and replacing it with an image he has taken/uploaded himself unless discussion has taken place prior to the switching of images, and consensus is in favour of the change, or there's a 1RR restriction, so he can make the switch without discussion, but if it's reverted, it needs to be discussed before the edit can be reinstated. If a page lacks an image, then Calibrador can add any image he so wishes. It's important to say at this time that we do appreciate the time and effort he puts into taking and uploading photographs BUT other photographers, both professional and amateur do exactly the same, and in the interests of fairness, we want to see good images from a wide range of different photographers being used on the project, this in turn encourages image contributions from other photographers. Every photographer who takes good images should have an expectation of their images being used by another project and that their images will be chosen fairly, without bias, and on the merit of the photograph and its content, composition and appropriateness for the article. Calibrador's behaviour isn't really allowing that to happen right now. Nick (talk) 09:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- I notice that Calilibrador wrongly attempted to delete the block notice on his talk page while it was still in force, and that when policy was explained to him again reverted the notice anyway, only to be reverted again by Nick. Finally, as soon as the block expired, he scrubbed off the notice a third time. I would argue that this wholesale lack of transparency demonstrates an ongoing and obsessive interest with his image and PR, with past examples documented in the section below. This is a long-term, and current problem with this editor and there is very little contrition in evidence. I suggest the overall pattern indicates a desire to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for his profession as a photographer. Jusdafax 23:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is, he is trying to keep his talk page clean so that paying clients don't ask about his block, anyways thanks for pointing out the previous discussion involving him JustDaFax, maybe I should have pointed this out at the very top of the thread and saved myself a lot of time, the admin in that discussion EdJohnston warned him not to re-offend, and he did....many times actually..I'm tired of this cause I did not come back after retiring just so that I get involved in MORE wikidrama, I have no issue with this, I just do not like POV pushers regardless of who they might be ...I hope an admin comes with a solution soon which will stop this from happening again..--Stemoc 00:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Umm Stemoc I mentioned the report right above so I'm not sure how you missed it , That said even if it was mentioned right up the top it wouldn't made a blind bit of difference unfortunately . –Davey2010 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Say, Davey2010 could you ping those editors mentioned in your report, that had issues with Cali/Gage? They are likely not aware of this ANI complaint that is now in a state of WP:BOOMERANG and may well shed some light on why they had concerns. Thanks. Jusdafax 07:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Jusdafax - That's actually a good idea ... Should've done that sooner as anything's worth a shot tbh, MrX, Spartan7W, Lady Lotus, Dwpaul. –Davey2010 09:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Say, Davey2010 could you ping those editors mentioned in your report, that had issues with Cali/Gage? They are likely not aware of this ANI complaint that is now in a state of WP:BOOMERANG and may well shed some light on why they had concerns. Thanks. Jusdafax 07:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposed sanctions for Calilibrador
- Agree, completely, with Nick's suggestion. It seems to be the most sensible and fair solution. I would be more in favour of the 1RR suggestion; it's not prohibitively restrictive (and doesn't discourage further contributions), but it reigns in any excessive promotional behaviour and forces him to seek consensus with other editors if they take issue with his revisions. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Indef block for Calibrador - Quinto, that type of sanction is only effective if Cali/Gage sees the continuing errors of his ways, and acts on them. He's been warned repeatedly to no avail, even reverting the block message on his Talk page when warned not to. Stemoc is likely right, Cali/Gage has deep reasons for his Talk page scrubbage. I say indef the character, at least until we get a serious commitment to reform that he can be held to. He's been gaming the system here for too long and shows no intention of stopping. Jusdafax 01:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Indef Calibrador - I'm probably not going to be liked for this but the editor has caused enough problems and I think the 1RR won't solve anything at all, We could go down the 1RR route but he'd end up being reported at ANEW and then it'll be this discussion all over again and he'd end up being blocked - Once unblocked we'll be doing it all over again. Indef seems a better and wiser idea IMHO. –Davey2010 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agree -- In complete agreement with Nick here. The 1RR proposal for Calibrador makes a lot of sense. However if that doesn't work an indef seems like the only other option. -- Shudde 05:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Stemoc is hounding Calilibrador and is seriously refusing to drop the stick. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I can understand 1RR and renaming of the files to remove his name (per DGG's comment), but before this last Bbb23 block for edit warring, he's never been blocked, and he has over 25,000 edits behind him. Indef blocking is excessive at this stage. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- A lot of that was to get him to respond, which he's now doing, if less than satisfactorily. But Dennis, it's my firm belief that if he gets off with 1RR and renaming, he's getting off easy. I really don't want to go wading through his edits, just to find more examples. We are already at TL,DR. Davey 2010 has it right. Jusdafax 20:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Current and past problems with Calibrador, formerly Gage Skidmore: suggest extending current BOOMERANG with indef block
Good double block, and I share Nick's concerns. By the way, isn't this diff above in this very ANI complaint (!) using "very close to libel" as an implied legal threat in violation of WP:LEGAL, as well the use of the term "paranoia" an attack on the mental condition of the editor Cali/Gage has brought to this board? If so, wouldn't a continued block of C/G be protective in nature?
In any case, I've had some troubling issues with Cali/Gage Skidmore at the L.A. Reid article. In brief, he lies, distorts, ignores and in general does whatever needful to get what he wants. My involvement began in 2012 when I cordially welcomed him to the page while expressing concerns about his captioning. He gave no reply.
In August 2013, he repeatedly inserts his own photography as the infobox photo and refuses to reply on his Talk page or on the article Talk page when I attempted again to discuss. When challenged, he lied in his edit summary saying, as clearly shown in this diff that I had reverted him without explaining, which the diff shows my edit summary had, and that I was in violation of WP:OWN, when in fact I had repeatedly asked for Cali/Gage to discuss the matter.
I also noticed others had similar issues and Cali/Gage failed to respond to them either. Finally in disgust I walked away from what I felt was an unpleasant and manipulative editing experience. And this editor has a serious set of issues, as noted above, and in his warning at AN just last month, also as noted above. He's a fine photographer, but we can do without his hostile gamesmanship and relentless self-promotion, in my view. Jusdafax 12:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment The use of "very close to libel" once probably shouldn't be construed as a legal threat per WP:LEGAL. I don't really see enough diffs to support this strong of an action. I started looking through some of his photos and they are quite good. Personally, I think it would be a shame to loose his future contributions. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Reply - Not to go all Wikilawyer on you but the pertinent paragraph in that policy: It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as legal threats against them or against Misplaced Pages, even if the comments are not intended in that fashion. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. To avoid this frequent misunderstanding, use less charged wording (such as “That statement about me is not true and I hope it will be corrected for the following reasons...”) to avoid the perception that you are threatening legal action for defamation. As for photographers, he's good but not good enough to allow his brinksmanship and outright bad faith editing to continue, in my view. Jusdafax 06:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment I don't think you are Wikilawyering at all. I just think his phrase "very close to libel" is not quite the same as saying it was "libelous" nor did he do it repeatedly. I think before an indef block is decided, there should be more discussion about whether adding his name to the end of file names is a serious issue. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Darn it - that's not the only issue, as I demonstrate in this section just above. He's been abusing the place for years. You're right, the word "repeatedly" is in the policy too. But, now that he's unblocked, what does he do? Wipes his Talk page clean, and ignores the issues raised here. He does not apologize, does not comment, just up and vanishes. You OK with that? Why? Because he takes good pictures? Jusdafax 06:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with you that there are serious issues. I just did Google search in images for "Gage Skidmore" and it returns pages of his photos. So, maybe 1RR or 0RR would be a better starting point for now? --I am One of Many (talk) 07:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think the first thing we all need to agree to is to get him to talk. He has a well-established history of avoiding discussion. That has to stop. Indef him, he's forced to face the music on his pristine talk page. He can answer questions there, express contrition and understanding of our policies, etc. Seriously, he must not be given a slap on the wrist and turned loose again on the project. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 07:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Calibrador response
If you look at my more recent edits, aside from accidentally reverting too many times on one article without knowing (trust me, it was my mistake), I have begun using edit summaries, tried to seek consensus, and mostly tried to avoid conflict. Stemoc reverted several different edits over several different pages within a short span of time simply for the fact that he believes I am somehow a COI violator. What should I really have done differently? I tried to include discussion, and a clear edit summary at every opportunity.
I sincerely apologize for my past indiscretions, I have seen the error of ways in the past about not discussing changes seen as controversial. I don't need to be punished in order to see that, I see it clearly already. Also, I did not disappear, and inviting everyone that has had something bad to say about me with no one on the other side to defend me is a little biased.
The main issue that was at heart here that was underblown because Stemoc enjoys making a lot of noise, and crying COI at every possible chance, is the WP:Wikihounding and uncivil nature of their edits. I have no idea why this has changed into a discussion about me. I've realized my edits in the past were disruptive, and if you look at my edits recently, I made sure to include an edit summary in nearly every contribution, and when necessary, created or participated in discussion. This includes the 3RR that I accidentally got myself into without realizing, I created a discussion on the talk page, and included a reason for making the edit in my edit summary. Unfortunately that was completely ignored by Stemoc in favor of COI accusations, and stating that I'm profiting from Misplaced Pages, which I have not ever. I suggest concentrating on that rather than my past mistakes which I apologize for, and have tried to amend. Calibrador (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also the thing on my talk page was a mistake, I did not know about that policy, and when it was re-added, I accidentally thought someone re-added it to my talk page just to rub it in or something like that, I didn't look at the history page until after I had made the edit. My mistake once again. As for now, all users have control over their talk page, I think Stemoc is once again assuming bad faith, and made another COI allegation that was unfounded. I don't want to distract from the main issue though that I think has not even been addressed yet, so please discuss Stemoc's offenses. Calibrador (talk) 12:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I actually found Gage creating this article really odd until I did a bit of research and found out that he is somewhat of a "follower" and then i found this..should we now assume Gage is a Paid editor as well cause your edits related to Rand Paul sure looks a lot like public relations work..no? So you use the wiki to push your own agendas, create articles on stuff which again boosts your own career and then you lie about it and then come here and blame me for foiling you? Just claim that you are a political photographer and you are doing all this just to boost your own career and this will all be over...Heck, you even uploaded a new yet poor picture of Donald trump because you didn't like the one I added as it wasn't one of 'yours'...When i first came across you a few years ago, I thought you were a hero for adding HQ pics of celebs and politicians free of charge, boy was I wrong and yet even when multiple users above have claimed that you have been 'gaming' the system, you still deny it and deflect it back to me...Honestly, if all this does not result in a ban or a block for you, I worry that you will do it all over again cause honestly, I do not think you joined wikipedia to help grow the database and you have no intentions whatsoever to follow our policies if they contradict with your ambitions and you have already been on the Edit Warring notice board 3 times over the last 50 days and yet you keep blaming others and refuse to accept that you made mistake after mistake and you even blanked your talk page twice even after 2 admins warned you not to and then you blanked it again the 3rd time just 10 minutes after your block was lifted..Why would anyone not worried about their image do that?...If you somehow walked away from this with just a slap on your hand then this would mean Misplaced Pages has failed...--Stemoc 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop stalking my edits and crying COI. You've made your same point over and over and over, I'd like an admin opinion on your behavior, not your same opinion. Calibrador (talk) 13:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I actually found Gage creating this article really odd until I did a bit of research and found out that he is somewhat of a "follower" and then i found this..should we now assume Gage is a Paid editor as well cause your edits related to Rand Paul sure looks a lot like public relations work..no? So you use the wiki to push your own agendas, create articles on stuff which again boosts your own career and then you lie about it and then come here and blame me for foiling you? Just claim that you are a political photographer and you are doing all this just to boost your own career and this will all be over...Heck, you even uploaded a new yet poor picture of Donald trump because you didn't like the one I added as it wasn't one of 'yours'...When i first came across you a few years ago, I thought you were a hero for adding HQ pics of celebs and politicians free of charge, boy was I wrong and yet even when multiple users above have claimed that you have been 'gaming' the system, you still deny it and deflect it back to me...Honestly, if all this does not result in a ban or a block for you, I worry that you will do it all over again cause honestly, I do not think you joined wikipedia to help grow the database and you have no intentions whatsoever to follow our policies if they contradict with your ambitions and you have already been on the Edit Warring notice board 3 times over the last 50 days and yet you keep blaming others and refuse to accept that you made mistake after mistake and you even blanked your talk page twice even after 2 admins warned you not to and then you blanked it again the 3rd time just 10 minutes after your block was lifted..Why would anyone not worried about their image do that?...If you somehow walked away from this with just a slap on your hand then this would mean Misplaced Pages has failed...--Stemoc 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- No doubt, Stemoc has his own issues. But this is the first I've heard of this Rand Paul article, which opens a new and distressing window on your POV pushing activities, Calibrador. Leaving that aside for the moment, as well as your excuses for blanking the block notices on your talk page repeatedly, which strain credulity since you are saying you didn't read the admin postings at all, we come to the issues I have delineated in detail above. You have posted a lot of words here. Not a single one addresses my specific and documented concerns, and those of others who have further concerns. So is this the best you can do? A "sweat promise" to now, after years, act like most decent Wikipedians, and actually use edit summaries, actually seek consensus? Now that major sanctions are under discussion here, I challenge you to address the charges that have been brought forward. Jusdafax 13:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I thought I addressed them? I admit I should have participated in discussion in the past instead of acting in a cold manner. I hardly even remember the incident you are talking about in regards to the LA Reid article. FWIW, that was not my photo, I did not take it. I was acting like any other editor looking for a better image that was freely available on Flickr, and thought that better illustrated the subject of the article, and thought it was weird that a photo with someone else in the photo that was years older was preferred. I did not look at the article history you linked, I'm just going by memory. Not sure what else I can say, but I'd very much like a response to Stemoc's behavior, as absolutely no one with any authority has had anything to say about their hounding and uncivil behavior that I documented in my original report. Calibrador (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also, not to make this any sort of issue, but I just looked at the article, and would note that the photo that I added is now the photo that is universally used to illustrate the article across Misplaced Pages projects, and not as a result of me. Someone else did that. I really have no memory of that situation though, it was several years ago. I know I was in the wrong on that though, so I apologize. Calibrador (talk) 14:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I thought I addressed them? I admit I should have participated in discussion in the past instead of acting in a cold manner. I hardly even remember the incident you are talking about in regards to the LA Reid article. FWIW, that was not my photo, I did not take it. I was acting like any other editor looking for a better image that was freely available on Flickr, and thought that better illustrated the subject of the article, and thought it was weird that a photo with someone else in the photo that was years older was preferred. I did not look at the article history you linked, I'm just going by memory. Not sure what else I can say, but I'd very much like a response to Stemoc's behavior, as absolutely no one with any authority has had anything to say about their hounding and uncivil behavior that I documented in my original report. Calibrador (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
The fact that GageSkidmore/Calibrador suddenly changed his username is an indication that his intentions here are likely less than good faith. I really don't see a pressing issue at all with Stemoc, but with GageSkidmore/Calibrador we see a user who is all about self-promotion, and in many regards, whose motivations, i.e. Rand Paul book, etc. are questionable. He likes to ensure his pictures retain precedence over all others; yes, he takes many pictures that are free-use, and that is good. But many of his pictures aren't of article quality and composition, and he many times fights for ones that are the least worth inclusion. There have been problems in the past, and I see them again. He likes making great streams of edits on pages, rather than carefully consolidating his efforts, he continues to put 'by Gage Skidmore' on every single picture uploaded to the commons, obvious self promotion, and his consistent efforts to evade (name change and notification deletes) demonstrate his negative impact here. Spartan7W § 14:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I would just like to note that I stole that idea from David Shankbone, should we bring David Shankbone to AN/I? The stream of edits that I think you are referring to were an effort to try to control my own content. Many (not all) of the photos that were uploaded from my photostream were cropped very poorly, or were not the best one to illustrate an article in my opinion. Most (not all) of my recent photo additions were replacing of my own photos with an alternate crop, or slightly different color, sharpness, etc. Some mistook that as simply uploading the same photo with a different title, but that was not the case, people were adding my photos to Misplaced Pages unknowingly to me, and I wasn't particularly a fan of the way they looked, however minor it was. I don't specifically recall very many instances where a "stream" of edits other than that one instance where it was controversial and someone took notice of it. After I was brought to the noticeboard, I did not continue that behavior. Despite what you may think, I'm capable of learning from my mistakes. As was the case with the recent noticeboard discussion, and is the reason I used an edit summary and created discussions on several recent articles. Unfortunately that was disrupted by Stemoc who reverted several different edits across several different pages, crying COI and that I'm somehow being paid to edit Misplaced Pages, how exactly should I have responded to that other than the way that I did? In the first few instances on one specific page, I reverted with a descriptive edit summary stating my opposition to the revert of my edit, and also included a talk page post. That post was met with a paragraph of COI accusations. In the end, another user, PrairieKid reverted the page back to my version twice more when Stemoc reverted it to their version. The fact that I overstepped 3RR was an accident on my part, I understand that policy very clearly, I would not have overstepped that if I had known the first edit I made also counted as a revert, I was simply re-adding official portraits that were replaced for some reason unknown to me. In regards to the Paul thing, I would simply consider myself an expert on the topic, the book article was added because I was trying to keep it consistent with the previous two book articles. Not sure what you were trying to imply with that, especially since the article is not written in a biased manner. I don't believe I've ever made any sort of NPOV edits to anything Paul related, if I did that was a mistake, but I do not believe I did. The only thing I can think of are stylistic article choices. Calibrador (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Really Shankbone? the guy that took random celebrity pics and never had a COI or ever pushed his POV across wikimedia? only a handful of his celebrity pics were with his name in the image title which i mentioned above, we ALLOW...not 100% of his images..He rarely if at all replaced someone's images with his own unless it was outdated and I doubt he made a single-cent out of doing this..I would be really surprised if he was ever dragged onto any of the WP:AN boards..and again, you are deflecting..Now you are claiming that users like Lady Lotus and I made "bad" crops?. Are you seriously suggesting that for example, this image by Lady Lotus was so "badly cropped" than you just had to replace it with this image of yours? or replace this with your cropped version or replace this image with one of yours for the exact same reason.. I don't think you care about the quality of your images cause if you did and you thought your version was BETTER, you would have uploaded your version over the "same image" that you were trying to replace, instead of uploading a same if not similar crop with again, your name in the image title...I have told you on multiple occasion that if any user on enwiki or commons finds an image on flick with a free licence and they find there is a need for that image on ANY of the 700 odd wikis we have (300 of which are wikipedias), they will freely be allowed to upload that image to commons so if you have a problem with it, please, feel free to change the license of your images on flickr to ARR (All Rights Reserved) but at the same time, you won't be allowed to upload those images here either without scrutiny....and regarding the PrairieKid edit, If you actually see the history, he changed an image because another user reverted my edit because he didn't understand why my "revert" of your edit was a "self-promotion" because you had your name changed which is why you did it (you can lie about it many times but we all know why)..infact there was no 3RR by me but I accepted the block because I felt that maybe NOW people might see exactly what I have been saying all along, I don't have to repeat myself again as everything i have said is listed above..You may not see it but even though you have been around since 2009, you still refuse to understand or follow our policies so you have not only violated one, but MANY of our policies over the years and you only got away with it because of your name. I have listed a few of your violations above and on the 3RR thread which you keep going back too, this board is NOT for 3RR....this board is about your attitude on this wiki and how you deal (or lack thereof) with other users and your ability (on inability) to both understand or follow our polices and your insistence of claiming over and over again that you are the victim here when its clear that you are not....So instead of deflecting to me, why don't you tell us why an admin should not block you? and P.S, I'm NOT Hounding you, I'm getting you to talk because over the last 6 years you have been on this wiki, you REFUSE to talk when posed a question and you always ignore hierarchy on this wiki and now when you have this opportune time to save yourself, you deflect, passing the blame onto someone else without realizing that this will only make it worse for you....the only reason I'm replying to your posts is because you keep mentioning my name and pointing fingers at me, i know how to defend myself since I have been in similar situation a few times....Everytime I post, I added more proof regarding your edits, and everytime you posts, its just more accusations hurled at me without an ounce of proof and yet, I'm the one hounding him as you claim....anyways I have wasted too much time on this, I have better things to do across wikimedia--Stemoc 00:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- Stemoc, first off, you gotta learn to not slap up these giant text walls that make the average editor's eyes glaze over, and tone down your use of caps. That said, it appears to me you have a number of decent points. There is no doubt that Cali/Gage has utterly and repeatedly failed for years now to discuss and come to consensus, except when he is lying, which I document above. I'm hoping by keeping this thread open that others will come forth, so we can establish what kind of sanctions Cali/Gage will be facing. There is growing consensus something has to be done. Cool out, man. Jusdafax 02:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- Haha, yeah can't help it bro, once I have something to talk about, my wall can be higher than the Great Wall of China..I actually cut myself short there cause most of the things that needed to be said has already been said....I have mentioned a few times that i use Bolds or Caps or "quotes" for "emphasis" only, I'm not really "shouting"..I agree, this has dragged far too long and needs to be solved once and for all...I have no interests in making edits to the wikipedia-space as i prefer most if not all my edits to be on the main space..--Stemoc 02:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- Three words: Use paragraph breaks. BMK (talk) 12:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I was notified about this discussion on my talk page. I do not favor an indefinite block of Gage Skidmore (the username change was in bad faith, however, and should be reversed imo). Though he has demonstrated a strong POV against notable minor candidates for office as I documented here, my main issue with Skidmore is his lack of communication, specifically his refusal to discuss contentious edits he makes in furtherance of his POV. Nevertheless, based on what he has written above, I believe he has the potential to change. He adds great content to articles and wikipedia should not eliminate his ability to do so through an indefinite block. A 1RR restriction seems like a fair remedy. This may encourage him to discuss his edits (as part of the WP:BRD method) rather than reverting reverts without providing any justification.--William S. Saturn (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for interaction ban
At this point I think it would be very wise to consider implementing an interaction ban between myself and Stemoc, I don't conceive this ever resolving amicably as far as their prerogative goes, so I think this would be the best way to not be disruptive. Calibrador (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose such interaction ban since the only one to benefit from it would be the proposer himself, who would get rid of a vocal critic. Criticism that IMO is justified, because like many others here I see Calibrador's activities as using Misplaced Pages for promotion. Thomas.W 16:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - Yup Thomas's hit the nail on the head - WP:IBAN states and I quote "The purpose of an interaction ban is to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved - There is no conflict - It's simply one (well actually quite alot) of editors unhappy with you and your self promotion here. –Davey2010 17:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment If they were civil about it, I wouldn't have made the request. Unfortunately they are one of the most uncivil people I have ever had interaction with. Calibrador (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- They have been civil tho so that doesn't wash either..... –Davey2010 20:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not true. Calibrador (talk) 21:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - per Thomas W. I'm fed up, obviously. As I comment above, Stemoc's off-putting delivery is annoying, and post-block, he needs to cool that down. But Stemoc's got some valid points, and I for one am glad he's making the push to inform the wider community about Calibrador's promotional and conflicted edit history. This self-serving proposal merely continues that pattern, and coming in the midst of an ongoing discussion of boomerang sanctions against Calibrador, is arguably disruptive. Cali/Gage has clearly learned nothing from the way this thread has gone. If this is the best he can do, indef him, and we can discuss it without his attempts to turn the discussion. Jusdafax 02:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for a ban on Calibrador/Gage Skidmore to add his name as author/photographer to articles on en-WP
Per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits we should not credit the image author or copyright holder in the article, unless relevant to the subject, but just having taken a photo of the subject of an article does not IMO make the photographer "relevant to the subject". So I propose a ban on Calibrador/Skidmore to add his name as creator/author/photographer to articles on the English language Misplaced Pages, whether it's done in the image caption, as a footnote, as a reference (yes I've seen his name added as <ref>Author: Gage Skidmore</ref> to articles, so that his name appears among the references at the bottom of the page, see Matt Groening) or in any other way. Having his name on the image page, visible when clicking the image, should be more than enough. Several proposals to add image attributions to articles have been made through the years, but all have AFAIK failed, so we should go by what MOS says, that is no image attribution unless relevant to the subject of the article. Thomas.W 16:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Any actual mention of my name in an article, whether that includes a reference like you mentioned, or in the caption, was not done by me, and I oppose that as well. Calibrador (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- What about taking that to ArbCom so that arbitrators decide what to do? --TL22 (talk) 11:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, because no admin wants to dig into this murky time sink. But who's gonna file it? Jusdafax 13:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not moaning but I guess Arbcom's better than no action at all, I wish an admin would deal with it tho but there we go. –Davey2010 22:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, because no admin wants to dig into this murky time sink. But who's gonna file it? Jusdafax 13:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Disruptive behaviour of User:Rolandi+
Continously disruptive editing. The user refuses to discuss in a civil manner or contribute to the project.
- Without discussion, editing the infobox of Balšić noble family, changing the contemporary and historiographical view of the family (notability), that instead of Serbian, they were Albanian. There is a section regarding theories on their origin, and a discussion at the talk page.
- Without discussion, editing the introduction of Souliotes, changing the contemporary and historiographical view of the tribe (notability), that instead of Greek, they were Albanian. There is a section regarding theories on their origin, and a discussion at the talk page. Rolandi+ opened a dispute discussion about the article, which is very confusing.
- Without discussion, removing a reference of Kosovo Serbs, on the basis that "not reliable source, doesn't mention kosovo with its official name" and "Nacionalist media is not reliable source, doesn't mention kosovo with its official name .It has also comments ,so it is just a blog.There are some nacionalist comments that makes it clear that it isn't a serious Source." the reference uses Kosovo i Metohija.
The user has been warned countless times. He makes inappropriate comments such as I don't care about your stupid boycott ,I just see the sources, maybe you don't know how to use your eyes, so stop your foolish editings, where did your learn that ?or maybe you are the Master of Universe?, you are afraid of anti-serbians....I would like to be your friend as you make me laugh so much ... just for their fun?You are so ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!, MAYBE YOU NEED TO GO AND READ THE ARTICLE.IT SAYS: Also, I have reasons to believe that AlbertBikaj (talk · contribs) and Rolandi+ (talk · contribs) are the same person, based on scope, spellings and punctuation marks.--Zoupan 13:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
I was new here (now I have 4 days here) so I didn't know that I had to use the talk pages.After I was warned , I have ALWAYS used the talk pages of the articles or user's talk pages.(you can see that).After I was informed,I haven't edit anything at "Balsic family"
"Souliotes" (I have used only the talk page after that.Actually without consensus at the talk page,Zoupan deleted from the "Souliotes" some informations +references that were on the article since a long time---I have asked for independent help at the relevant notice board. )
Zoupan also claimed "8,000–12,000" here:https://en.wikipedia.org/Kosovo_Serbs .When I asked him to provide references ,he provided some references that didn't say the same thing he claimed (so he lied with his references).
He says that I deleted a "referenced" source.I used the talk page to explain him that the used reference was not serious (so it is not reliable).The web page referred to kosovo as "Kosovo +Metohija" which is not its official name.The most important thing that makes it clear that it is not a serious media are the comments.There are many nacionalist comments (that a serious+reliable media doesn't allow ) such as "Ramush Haradinaj+Hashim Thaci are killers etc "/ "we will never return to Kosovo dialogue" etc.
After we hadn't an agreement about "Balsic family " and "Kosovo serbs" ,he started claiming at the Souliotes' talk page that my references weren't correct.He wanted from me to answear his questions (he made these things only to "revenge" against me as I didn't have the same thoughts with him about some serbian related informations.).He also said that he had references where he based his claims.I asked him twice to provide his references at the talk page but he didn't (he lied again).Also he said to me that he would made edits at some albanian related pages (about the albanian nobility--He obviously wanted only to "revenge" ).---For all of these please see our talk pages and the mentioned articles' talk pages.
As for my "inappropriate comments" I am ready to be more carefull in the future.
He also said that he believes I am a sockpuppet.Actually ,he can investigate about that.Albert Bikaj is obviously "albanian" so it's normal for two albanians to edit albanian related pages.I am sure that Zoupan is the "same" person with other serb editors based on scope,spellings and punctuation marks.As I said :Zoupan thinks I am a sockpuppet and he can investigate about that.
Rolandi+ (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm a liar and avenger? Okay. Please do take a look at the talk pages, because this is getting tiresome. Note that the user has made 8 edits to the above comment, with one timestamp.--Zoupan 20:20, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
It is true that I did 8 edits to the above comment, with one timestamp.However ,this doesn't mean that my words aren't true about you.As I said the other editors can see our talk pages and the mentioned articles' talk pages.And don't continue adding "Ottoman greeks" at the souliotes' article without our consensus .Rolandi+ (talk) 08:26, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- This disruptive pattern is still in full motion, while blind reverting appears a typical strategy for the promotion of a national pov. I've left a last warning in Rolandi's talkpage.Alexikoua (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, he is still continuing his behaviour. He removed my referenced edits with the comments "no consensus-use the talk page", I then reverted his removal, with the comment "rev undiscussed removal, use talk page", upon which he reverted once again with the comment "Use the talk page as your references and edits aren't reliable.I don't have why to use the talk page as I am just deleteing your Unreliable edits."--Zoupan 18:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Zoupan continue deleting all my edits and references.(for example https://en.wikipedia.org/Mehmed_Pasha_Bushati ).He deleted my references and said that I had to provide references.And this isn't the first time!Alexikoua also continue deleting my referenced edits by saying that they aren't decent .This here for example (Danişmend (1971), p. 41 ) is used hundreads of time at many articles (for example : https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_Ottoman_Grand_Viziers ).If they delete my references because they are "decent and without consensus ",this means thatsome of their references also can be deleted. ( Zoupan uses mostly serb references that are actually unreliable.They consider all balkanik people as "serbs" .He also uses serb blogs as reliable references. )Also I want tou to prevent Zoupan and Alexikoua from leaving me warnings.If I do something bad ,I want warnings from other administrators. Rolandi+ (talk) 19:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yet disruption is spread to a variety of articles with the same national-pov advocacy pattern: for example Markos Botsaris ], Kitsos Tzavellas ]. In both cases being eager to change the nationality without even with intenionally wrong edit summaries (labelling as "minor change" a change in the nationality at 1st line of the lede).Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes Alexikoua ,the "souliotes" has been sent to the revelant dispute resolution noticeboard.See the talk page also.There is no consensus that souliotes were greeks .You continue reporting me only to ban me because we don't have the same thoughts. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Zoupan#Don.27t_delete_my_references .Maybe you think you are very intelligent or you are the Master of Universe,maybe you think you will ban me forever ,this is and will not be true.And if I will be banned ,don't worry ,you can't change the history,you can't change nothing as you are only ,but only a little ridiculous man.As Zoupan said ,Misplaced Pages isn't a reliable source , and this because there are people like you .Nobody takes your edits as serious ,there are books and other references where people read about nations and cultures ,nobody believes your lies.So go ahead and ban me , ban me if you can.And if you manage to ban me ,I will turn back (without sockpuppetery )here.And I will not comment at this talk page anymore ,because only people like you can be part of ridiculous things.Goodbye my little dear Alexikoua. As for Zoupan ,please Don't wake him up from his dreams. Rolandi+ (talk) 07:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolandi+ (talk • contribs)
User:MELB1110 ignoring discussion on talk page
The problem with this new user is that he started editing the Armenia article after abandoning the discussion on the talk page. The matter is the geographical location of Armenia, an issue which is going on here since years (interestingly, on other main wikipedias there is no problem at all about it), and that causes recurring edit warring bursts. Several lenghty discussions on the talk page (i.e. this one ) established consensus that Armenia - altough in many respects can be considered an european country - lies geographically in Western Asia, and that in order to change this info one should find reliable geographical sources (this means geographical institutions, since physical geography is a science) showing a different geographical (not political) definition of Europe. In other words, if the Armenian academy of Sciences adopts a definition of Europe with its south east border at the Persian Gulf, we should take it in the article. Unfortunately, until now all the users pretending that Armenia lies geographically in Europe failed to provide these sources, bringing only sources which define Armenia "Europe" playing on the ambiguity between geographical and political definition of Europe. User:MELB1110 makes no exception to this behaviour. He abandoned the discussion, and edited the article first inserting as source for the geographic location of Armenia the BBC (). After my revertion assuming good faith, he brought a web site with a map showing Armenia in its political boundaries as belonging to Europe (). Unfortunately this web site (www.worldatlas.com) is a commercial web site. The reliability of this source can be determined observing that in the HTML page about Europe there are two maps of the continent, one with Armenia and one below the first one without it (). He ignored my comments on the talk page ( and, in response to another user sharing my same opinion ) and after my revert assuming good faith he started to edit warring ().
Attempts to communicate on his talk page did not bring much either ().
User:MELB1110 is clearly POV pushing (see also these edits on the same line - and - about Cyprus, both reverted), refusing to get the point, ignoring the lack of present consensus and going against previously established consensus on the talk page (also in other threads in the archives). I would like to point out too that the article about Armenia is subjected to discretionary sanctions by administrators, so that any editor should be very careful in dealing with this article. I brought this case already to the edit warring noticeboard, but there no action has been taken, since the user changed his edits, and altough edit warring at the end, he did only three edits. Alex2006 (talk) 05:06, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
OttonielWhite/Elindiord
OttonielWhite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has resumed making Twinkle reverts of valid edits without any edit summaries after the expiration of a one-month block for sockpuppetry. The sockpuppet, Elindiord (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), was twice blocked for the same behavior. This editor obviously does not understand what is wrong with their actions, has made no attempt to communicate, and should be blocked to prevent further disruption. Conifer (talk) 11:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Only one edit since this report was filed (which, it's worth noting, was reverted...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Lot more than one edit now, and it's really a pain having to go and undo all their reversions that don't have edit summaries. There is a serious WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT issue going on. Conifer (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
battleground behavior and general uncivility by RGloucester
The latest from RGloucester (talk · contribs) is his refusal to accept the outcome of the Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton move discussion. This was a long drawn out discussion but consensus was quite clearly in favor of moving it. He has since been edit warring over the name in the infobox,, , , . He has now announced his plans on the article talk page to do another move request to change it back. After a chorus of people opposing such an idea, he made this edit indicating he believes that only his opinion is correct and that he WILL eventually get his way.
This is not the first time he has made such statements that things WILL go his way, which I feel is an intimidation tactic. He frequently makes demands and refuses to accept when things do not go his way, such as this checkuser request.
Additionally, he's being extremely uncivil at the Village Pump. He has violated WP:NPA by telling someone they are inferior and to accept their "station" in life . What I find most bizarre is that he stated that "God has spoken to you and your cause through me, and I've said what he intended in a clear manner." He also believes that nobody on Misplaced Pages has any rights to protest anything (which I suppose he does not feel applies to him). He has been blocked four or five times this year already (despite his claims that "someone who is right can never be blocked.") ) and his antics frequently feature on Reddit. I feel something needs to be done about this user, unless he specifically states his willingness to work with other editors, that he will accept consensus when things don't go his way, and that he agrees he is not the messenger of God on Misplaced Pages. —Мандичка 😜 16:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I believe that this can be folded/merged into the #Hillary Clinton discussion above. It relates to the same set of issues. bd2412 T 16:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- @BD2412: it's actually a larger issue regarding one editor in particular and not specific to the Hillary Clinton article - there are other editors involved with the HC infobox argument. I think there is a larger and ongoing issue that needs to be addressed with RGloucester. —Мандичка 😜 16:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Concur with —Мандичка. It's related, but RGloucester's battleground behavior and attitude deserve special attention. I would hope a warning would suffice. --В²C ☎ 17:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Wikimandia: Well, there seems to be a cycle where a warning is given or a "break" is imposed every few months or so. Given that's how it seems to be "addressed" on each occasion, I'm not too sure if it will be any different if the thread is down here or merged as a sub-thread into the above discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - User:RGloucester is an editor who polarizes the community, who has supporters and opponents. "The community" at this noticeboard has never done a good job of dealing with divisive or polarizing editors. If anyone thinks that this editor really needs to be sanctioned, they can go to ArbCom. I concur with the criticism of his sometimes extreme self-righteousness, as in his statements that he may not be blocked because he is right; but the community at this noticeboard has never dealt effectively with polarizing editors. In the case of his comments at Village pump (miscellaneous), my interpretation is that he has forgotten that, on the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree that being "polarizing" ought to be grounds for any action against an editor whatsoever. In this case, there are plenty of other specific grounds for action, without resorting to a vague charge of polarization, which could be used against any editor who has a mind of his own, and honestly says what he thinks. In this particular situation, RGloucester is simply being
dishonestretaliatory. He is planning to move the article not simply because it should be moved, but explicitly in retaliation against "Certain editors have taken to the war path, ignoring Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines, and common sense. They attempt to eradicate the word 'Rodham', as if said word were vulgar." There would be no suggestion to again do an article move but for continuing efforts to remove "Rodham" from locations other than the article title. There is no need to point here to "polarization" because we can point to more specific bad behavior. Retaliatory editing is always bad behavior.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree that being "polarizing" ought to be grounds for any action against an editor whatsoever. In this case, there are plenty of other specific grounds for action, without resorting to a vague charge of polarization, which could be used against any editor who has a mind of his own, and honestly says what he thinks. In this particular situation, RGloucester is simply being
- Comment - It should be noted that American political edits are under discretionary sanctions per the new ArbCom ruling. To quote,
standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people.
If RG has been made aware of these sanctions I just informed him of the discretionary sanctions (), WP:AE would be the appropriate venue to air grievances and allegations of wrongdoing. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Can someone please explain exactly what this means to me? Does this mean that all post-1933 U.S. politics articles are under 1RR, or what?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- @IJBall: Just standard discretionary sanctions. 1RR could be placed on a page by an admin if they felt it was necessary. But there's no blanket 1RR or anything. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Pssst...EvergreenFir, try using WP:GS to link to the above; it currently links to Deletion sorting.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)- @Berean Hunter: Thanks! Fixed! EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Pssst...EvergreenFir, try using WP:GS to link to the above; it currently links to Deletion sorting.
- Can I point out that the list at WP:SANCTIONS isn't even in alphabetical order right now? Am I allowed to fix that? Please! Pretty please?!! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- @IJBall: Just standard discretionary sanctions. 1RR could be placed on a page by an admin if they felt it was necessary. But there's no blanket 1RR or anything. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- This thread is a nonsense. First of all, I have not "edit-warred" with anyone over anything. I've not edited the article in a week, and have no involvement with the development of its content (I have never edited an "American political article"). I opened a talk page thread ages ago, which was promptly ignored by the likes of Calidum, who continued edit-warring with other editors over the infobox header, leading to the article's protection. Second of all, I am preparing to open a new RM because no moratorium was enacted, and because I believe that the evidence shows that the other title should be the title of the Misplaced Pages article. This is what those who "moved" the article did (such as well-known title warrior Born2cycle), filing new RMs at every juncture for years, so I do not see why I should not be allowed it? What is the reason for this apparent double standard? Furthermore, I find it absurd that I'm being taken to task over people who dislike my character. I have committed no wrong-doing, other than that some people here seem to have a visceral hatred of my very being. There is no justification whatsoever for an AN/I thread, or anything else. Yes, I oppose liberal activism on an encylopaedia that is supposed to be a bastion of neutrality. It isn't supposed to be a soapbox, or so I thought. Was that not the foundation of the project? And yet, merely voicing an opinion on the matter of these banners has brought fellows out of the woodwork, trying to sink my every act. What is the meaning of this? Why has this come to pass? Why are these editors able to go about unabashedly attacking the likes of me, incessantly playing at political advocacy, and yet I'm the one that's being chastised with a paddle? Explain, dear AN/I. Explain. RGloucester — ☎ 17:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- (Uninvolved editor comment, aka. unsolicited advice) Bad idea, RGloucester. Even if you are "right" on the merits, back-to-back RM's never go down well, and yours will surely be voted down (not on the "merits") if you try this. You are best advised to wait about 6 months (or until Hillary!! gets elected – whichever comes first) and try again then. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - Interesting. EvergreenFir notified RGloucester of discretionary sanctions, and RGloucester deleted the notification, saying that he has never edited an American politics article. Hilary Rodham Clinton is an American politician. To respond to Anythingyouwant, I agree that being polarizing or divisive should not be grounds for sanctions against an editor. Anythingyouwant stated that RGloucester has engaged in dishonesty and retaliatory editing, which are conduct issues. I meant that "the community" at this noticeboard has difficulty in dealing with identified conduct issues by polarizing editors, and that conduct issues by polarizing or divisive editors should be dealt with either by Arbitration Enforcement or by the ArbCom. RGloucester hasn't responded to my comment about dripping sarcasm on the Internet, which is a waste of pixels. I recommend that this thread be closed by an uninvolved administrator, and that any conduct issues be taken to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- AE does not apply, as I wasn't notified of the sanctions until mere minutes ago. As such, I wasn't made "aware" of the sanctions until after the supposed "violations" occurred. Not that there were any "violations". You'll note that the sum total of my involvement with the HRC article is with regard to the title, not with regard to anything political. I have no involvement in "American politics", and know nothing about them, praise God. I do not consider the few edits I made to restore the infobox header to the consensus version a week ago to be "editing an American politics article". Insofar as "sarcasm" is concerned, I do not understand as to what you are referring. Please be clearer, and perhaps I can furnish you with a reply. RGloucester — ☎ 18:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - Perhaps my reference to sarcasm with respect to RGloucester's comments at Village pump (miscellaneous) telling other editors to stop challenging the will of the ruling classes and the will of God and to stop being so self-important was too kind, and perhaps either he was trolling or he actually believed what he said. It is true that those comments do not fall within the scope of Arbitration Enforcement because they have to do with European politics. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I never say anything other than what I believe. RGloucester — ☎ 19:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I don't know exactly what "polarizing" refers to in this sense. I don't see anyone on the other side supporting RGloucester. The closest thing was the suggestion that he was being sarcastic when he proclaimed to speaks the word of God and insulted someone, which he has denied. He's also denied edit warring and apparently feels editing the politician's name in the infobox falls outside of ArbCom sanctions as it is not political content. Do you still suggest taking it to arbitration? You work in arbitration, correct? —Мандичка 😜 21:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I can't speak for Robert, but I read his suggestion to mean taking it to WP:Arbitration Enforcement, not to WP:Arbitration. AE is where admins evaluate possible violations of ArbCom decisions, includng those involving discretionary sanctions, while Arbitration is a much more involved and time-consuming process which is generally used for new cases. Take a look at the content at WP:AE and see if you think it's an appropriate place to deal with your concerns. BMK (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- My complaint about RGloucester is regarding their ongoing behavior, incivil approach and general diva behavior that is approaching infamy outside of WP (like this unwarranted absurd attack on Drmies) that was on reddit). AE is just about people violating arbitrary sanctions. I haven't studied everything RGloucester has ever written, but it appears they've never made any admission or indication of meeting people halfway, just a ragequit when they demanded to be blocked. —Мандичка 😜 00:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- My recommendation was in particular to take the issue of move-warring or title-warring about an American politician to arbitration enforcement. The name in the infobox is the name of a candidate for President of the United States, and that is certainly American politics. If RGloucester thinks that he can persuade the uninvolved admins at AE that that isn't political, he can try to persuade them of that. If someone wants to propose sanctions for incivility with regard to a European political issue, they can do that here. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: Firstly, there is nothing "uncivil" about stating that it isn't Misplaced Pages's business to be interfering in matters of law or government. Secondly, it seems that you, Mr McClenon, despite being being an Arbitration clerk, are not aware of WP:AC/DS procedures. I cannot be taken to AE in this supposed "American politics" topic area for anything that occurred prior to having been made aware of the sanctions. Given that I've not edited any American politics pages since that notice, mere hours ago, there are no grounds for an AE request in that topic area. Regardless, there would not be anything actionable even if AE was a possible route. I would remind Mr McClenon that Misplaced Pages is not a WP:SOAPBOX for certain political views. I understand that he may endorse the liberal views expressed in the discussion on the matter of the banners, but that does not mean he is able to initiate a sanctioning of editors who have different views, or view the neutrality of the encylopaedia as sacrosanct. RGloucester — ☎ 00:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- @RGloucester: I think you may want to correct your second sentence, because perhaps quite fortunately, he is not an arbitration clerk anymore since he resigned last month. @Wikimandia: So to answer a question of yours which seems to have been unanswered - he does not work in arbitration. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon: Firstly, there is nothing "uncivil" about stating that it isn't Misplaced Pages's business to be interfering in matters of law or government. Secondly, it seems that you, Mr McClenon, despite being being an Arbitration clerk, are not aware of WP:AC/DS procedures. I cannot be taken to AE in this supposed "American politics" topic area for anything that occurred prior to having been made aware of the sanctions. Given that I've not edited any American politics pages since that notice, mere hours ago, there are no grounds for an AE request in that topic area. Regardless, there would not be anything actionable even if AE was a possible route. I would remind Mr McClenon that Misplaced Pages is not a WP:SOAPBOX for certain political views. I understand that he may endorse the liberal views expressed in the discussion on the matter of the banners, but that does not mean he is able to initiate a sanctioning of editors who have different views, or view the neutrality of the encylopaedia as sacrosanct. RGloucester — ☎ 00:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- My recommendation was in particular to take the issue of move-warring or title-warring about an American politician to arbitration enforcement. The name in the infobox is the name of a candidate for President of the United States, and that is certainly American politics. If RGloucester thinks that he can persuade the uninvolved admins at AE that that isn't political, he can try to persuade them of that. If someone wants to propose sanctions for incivility with regard to a European political issue, they can do that here. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- My complaint about RGloucester is regarding their ongoing behavior, incivil approach and general diva behavior that is approaching infamy outside of WP (like this unwarranted absurd attack on Drmies) that was on reddit). AE is just about people violating arbitrary sanctions. I haven't studied everything RGloucester has ever written, but it appears they've never made any admission or indication of meeting people halfway, just a ragequit when they demanded to be blocked. —Мандичка 😜 00:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I can't speak for Robert, but I read his suggestion to mean taking it to WP:Arbitration Enforcement, not to WP:Arbitration. AE is where admins evaluate possible violations of ArbCom decisions, includng those involving discretionary sanctions, while Arbitration is a much more involved and time-consuming process which is generally used for new cases. Take a look at the content at WP:AE and see if you think it's an appropriate place to deal with your concerns. BMK (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon:, I don't know exactly what "polarizing" refers to in this sense. I don't see anyone on the other side supporting RGloucester. The closest thing was the suggestion that he was being sarcastic when he proclaimed to speaks the word of God and insulted someone, which he has denied. He's also denied edit warring and apparently feels editing the politician's name in the infobox falls outside of ArbCom sanctions as it is not political content. Do you still suggest taking it to arbitration? You work in arbitration, correct? —Мандичка 😜 21:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- I never say anything other than what I believe. RGloucester — ☎ 19:45, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Furthermore, I would like to note that Miss Wikimandia's mention of certain off-Misplaced Pages websites of ill-repute does not do her any service. It makes it clear that she is part of a long-running off-Misplaced Pages harassment campaign against me as an editor, started late last year during the Cultural Marxism deletion debate. Said campaign has been ongoing, and has made editing nigh impossible in some cases. If anything, I recommend that she be sanctioned for participating in this campaign of harassment, and for participating in what has essentially been stalking. RGloucester — ☎ 00:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not part of any campaign to harass or stalk you. If your behavior has gained the attention of the wider world, that has nothing to do with me. I don't care about the "Cultural Marxism" page and have never made any comment about it nor have I ever edited it. You're entitled to your opinion and there's nothing uncivil about saying you oppose the banner idea... notice the many other people who expressed that opinion who are not being discussed at ANI??? However, you're not entitled to be rude. What is uncivil is your insults and inability to work with other editors, which is part of an ongoing issue you have of seeing yourself as superior to everyone (except God, who speaks through you, of course). —Мандичка 😜 01:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I beg your pardon? What "insult"? I never "insulted" anymore. I merely said that one should know one's place, as one should do. Mind you, this was in response to an outpouring of passion on the part of one editor, whereby he was in anguish over the fact that many of the photographs he has taken will cease to be in his ownership if the mentioned law passes. I was simply making it clear that he has no right to decide whether the photographs are his own, and that Misplaced Pages is not a place for passionate advocacy. It isn't for us to decide. That's a matter for the ruling class, for our betters. If they decide that these photographs shan't be able to be used, then they shan't be able to be used. We have no right to challenge the law. The law is the law, and it must be respected. RGloucester — ☎ 03:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not part of any campaign to harass or stalk you. If your behavior has gained the attention of the wider world, that has nothing to do with me. I don't care about the "Cultural Marxism" page and have never made any comment about it nor have I ever edited it. You're entitled to your opinion and there's nothing uncivil about saying you oppose the banner idea... notice the many other people who expressed that opinion who are not being discussed at ANI??? However, you're not entitled to be rude. What is uncivil is your insults and inability to work with other editors, which is part of an ongoing issue you have of seeing yourself as superior to everyone (except God, who speaks through you, of course). —Мандичка 😜 01:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The difficulty here is that there are two problems with RGloucester. (1) he's quite annoying - overblown pseudo-Jane Austen language, grandiloquent rhetoric, ironic references that only he finds entertaining, sometimes bizarre opinions etc and (2) there's certainly an element of WP:BATTLE in his approach. The first isn't sanctionable, although it would be better if he didn't do it. The problem with the second is that it gets so clouded with the first that it's actually a little difficult to assess whether it's bad enough that something need be done about it. I think there's a lack of diffs in this thread, outside of the HC latest, that clearly point to (2) - as opposed to (1) - being an issue. DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- That is an excellent analysis. I would add, however, that RG's propensity for actively and noisily not accepting the results of controversial community-consensus discussions which were settled only with great effort on many people's part can be considered to be WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:DISRUPTIVE in and of themselves, since he tends to go on and on and on about it, and often takes steps which muck things up. BMK (talk) 11:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't consider RG being disruptive. I've no problem with RG's passion for the topic-in-question & recommend we take no action against RG. As long as RG doesn't try to put Rodham in the infobox heading (via edit warring) or attempt to move the article itself back to Hillary Rodham Clinton? then there's no probs. GoodDay (talk) 12:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Rgloucester is the author of one of the most hilarious unblock requests I have read on wiki: On 18:24, 17 April 2015 he wrote "I refuse to be blocked. I am not blocked. You can pretend that you blocked me all you like, but someone who is right can never be blocked. It is impossible." If we can get more of this I think that is enough reason to keep him around for the lulz.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- This commentary is inappropriate. We should not have editors around to make fun of their behaviour. The above unblock request is suggestive of a mental breakdown to me. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 02:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, it is an inappropriate comment.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- This commentary is inappropriate. We should not have editors around to make fun of their behaviour. The above unblock request is suggestive of a mental breakdown to me. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 02:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Disruption at Jackson, Michigan high schools
JacksonViking (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The above user has been brought here before by me (see links below). He has a very big WP:OWN problem with Jackson High School (Michigan) and to a lesser extent, Lumen Christi Catholic High School, the two high schools in Jackson, Michigan. Evidence to his constant and unchecked WP:GAME and WP:IDHT have, IMO, risen to the level of WP:NOTHERE. I am asking for an indeff per NOTHERE, or lacking that, broadly construed editing restrictions on topics connected to high schools in Jackson, Michigan. Evidence follows. I leave the rest to the community.
- Archived previous report
- Recent NPA vio
- Recent disruptive edit (note refname Penis)
- Most recent attempt to reinstate content that the previous report was about
- Reinserting without discussion BLP violating content from previous report under a false edit summary
- Message left on my userpage about the above, transfered to my talk by another editor after he blanked my userpage to insert it (see below)
- RV of blanking by Barek
- Further userpage vandalism and playing dumb to be disruptive
- Prior talkpage communication to show the above was disruptive
- Prior personal attack
I believe the above, along with a browse of his talk page and contributions, shows amply evidence of a WP:SPA who has no interest in conforming to the community standards for either content or civility. Thanks. Notifying him next edit John from Idegon (talk) 18:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- The edit summary "Deleted a lot of content that was not cited similar to what John from Idegon does" seems more than a bit pointy. While much of the content was appropriately removed, there are some non-controversial bits which were blanked as well. The resulting page is left with several "place-holder" section headers needing cleanup. I'll look at that page a bit closer when I get home tonight to try to sort it out. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:08, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- And now you see the WP:DICKish behavior this user engages in regularly. Thanks to MarnetteD for reverting it. John from Idegon (talk) 00:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
This is extremely aggravating how literally every mistake I make on here you bash me. A lot of those things you're complaining about were noob mistakes. I do not how to contact other users and you refuse to help me but instead you refer to me with vulgar language such as "bub". Second, every single edit I make is reverted by John too. I say he gets off my back. JacksonViking (talk) 04:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Look at this too, John referred to my first comment on his edit page as taking out the trash. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AJohn_from_Idegon&type=revision&diff=668569410&oldid=668569387 Very unprofessionalJacksonViking (talk) 04:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know if you're not able to read a diff or if it's a deliberate misrepresentation of it, but all John from Idegon did in that edit, and what he referred to, was removing a duplicated section header... Thomas.W 08:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd lean to misrepresentation. In the prior paragraph, HE referred to me as "bub" (not at all vulgar BTW) in the diff above labeled "further user page vandalism..." and I replied "So it's not bub now?" It's just another example of GAME. John from Idegon (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Might not have been the best edit summary though. —Soap— 01:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd lean to misrepresentation. In the prior paragraph, HE referred to me as "bub" (not at all vulgar BTW) in the diff above labeled "further user page vandalism..." and I replied "So it's not bub now?" It's just another example of GAME. John from Idegon (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Are you guys not even going to acknowledge the first paragraph I left here? JacksonViking (talk) 23:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- JacksonViking, has it occurred to you that the reason no one is responding to the first paragraph you left is there is nothing to respond to? There is a welcome template on the top of your talk page that has links that could answer many of your questions. There is an invitation to the Teahouse, another place you can get your questions answered. You are posting here. You have (finally) posted at the article talk page, nearly 2 years after this whole debacle started. You are posting at the AfD another editor started on an article you created. Your claims of not knowing how to communicate are disingenuous. When you do communicate, you attempt to obfuscate the problem. You for example readd a huge block of BLP violating crap that you've refused to discuss numerous times, along with a minor and unneeded change to the notable people list. I revert, and You them charge to my User page, blank the entire thing and insert a whiny complaint about me removing your change to the notable list, totally ignoring the real problem. In the process, you refer to me as "bub" a term you find offensive enough to complain here that I used it. Is it any wonder you are not getting help from other editors? John from Idegon (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- John from Idegon All I come on here to do is make edits and help educate the community of the world. You have been bullying me since I've joined by deleting all my edits regardless of their value. JacksonViking (talk) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- JacksonViking continues to make unfounded and unsupported accusations against me here, is engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND discussion at Talk:Jackson High School (Michigan), and has refactored my comments here (sorry, can't seem to get the diff to paste from my phone, but it is the strikeout showing in my last entry above. If you look at the history you will see he did it and I cannot imagine a scenario where that could happen accidentally), all the while not even beginning to explain the behavior he was brought here for. John from Idegon (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- The diff showing JacksonViking refactoring your comment is here. I have reverted that change and posted a caution on their talk page. Thomas.W 11:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- JacksonViking continues to make unfounded and unsupported accusations against me here, is engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND discussion at Talk:Jackson High School (Michigan), and has refactored my comments here (sorry, can't seem to get the diff to paste from my phone, but it is the strikeout showing in my last entry above. If you look at the history you will see he did it and I cannot imagine a scenario where that could happen accidentally), all the while not even beginning to explain the behavior he was brought here for. John from Idegon (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- John from Idegon All I come on here to do is make edits and help educate the community of the world. You have been bullying me since I've joined by deleting all my edits regardless of their value. JacksonViking (talk) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- JacksonViking, are we really going to have to block you to prevent you from continuing to disrupt the encyclopedia and to help you grasp whatever is you don't understand? That's what happens here at ANI, you know. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- In light of the latest, creating an article now at AfD that was primarily a copyvio (here), I would suggest that might be what needs to happen. An indef, with the requirement of accepting mentorship before an unblock can happen. John from Idegon (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Okay firstly, someone changed a comment I made on page and ran a mark through it like I did to the typo John made so I didn't know it was so offensive. Secondly I wish someone would give me a clear cut message about what wrongs I am performing. I have Been a huge contributor to the Jackson high school wiki and added a bio box and a picture and curriculum and alumni. JacksonViking (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- In case you aren't hearing us, vague excuses are not getting it. Who did that? where? when?
- An explanation for why you named a reference "Penis" is needed.
- An admission that you knew you were doing something wrong by using deceptive edit summaries, along with a promise not to do it again, is needed.
- An indication of a desire to learn how to do things right, such as requesting WP:Adoption would be a big positive step.
- An indication that you have up to now refused to listen and in most cases even acknowledge that there is no-one showing you malice and people have been trying to help you would be nice.
- A promise to quit taking things personally and throwing tantrums (such as naming references Penis).
- Showing some understanding that a large amount of what you have been doing has not been encyclopedic. You need to perhaps spend time editing articles that have nothing whatsoever to do with Jackson, Michigan so possibly you can develop a sense of perspective on why your additions have not been that helpful.
No one is out to get you. ALl anyone here cares about is the quality of the encyclopedia. If you are interested in contributing to a quality encyclopedia, by all means, stick around. If your only interest is adding what you want without restriction to articles relating to Jackson, then perhaps you should spend a few bucks and start a website. John from Idegon (talk) 23:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Naming the reference Penis was because I figured there was no harm since no one can see it and the reference needed a unique name that helped differentiate it from the dozens of other things on the page JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC) JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC) JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- If the above is not enough for some kind administrator to use his buttons, perhaps the conversation on my talk page will help. Or maybe this. Or this, where he reinstated s copyvio, removed a BLP citations needed tag an just to put some whip cream on top of it, added a good article template (to a sub stub at AfD) . The conversation on my talk page is making me think we have a CIR scenario here, but either th st or nothere, it needs someone to swing the mop. John from Idegon (talk) 07:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I did not reintroduce copyvio. I paraphrased the entire substance of the article. Willis is also a freshmen not a junior and he says he wants to study to be an attorney in college. JacksonViking (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User:DePiep
I undid an edit by User:DePiep and added the subject "This was not a minor edit - you are changing more than just infobox parameters" () beacuse he was changing text from other editors. He undid it with the subject "grow up and learn to read" and I undid it again: "Stop it - you are changing the meaning of peoples text - look at the diff" and he undid it with "Get an editors life instead of tracking and bothering other editors. Create you own edits. And no, no contant changes because it's about par names". I confronted him on his talk page (see bottom - conversation before he archieved it), and asked for an apology, and he just said "And why should I not point to the "bothering" aspect?" Its not the first time, see e.g. Wikipedia_talk:Chemical_infobox#ATC_and_DrugBank_deprecations_reversion (and especially from "I did notice there were multiple editors in this discussion, and DePiep ", and its not so long ago he was here at WP:ANI last time Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#use_of_COI_as_a_weapon_in_content_dispute. Christian75 (talk) 22:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please read this too. Christian75 (talk) 22:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Cliff1911
Adds unsourced material, eg. , despite warnings. Never adds edit summaries, despite requests to. Does not respond to talk page requests from other editors. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I only saw the one revert, but he is actually right. Took me 10 seconds to find the citation for it at The best thing is to just put it back with that reference. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I also linked him to the essay WP:Communication is required. If someone is going to revert back, they need to be willing to discuss it, via WP:BRD. Since I've found the citation, told him on his talk page, I think we can wrap this up for now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:29, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, discussed this person here a while back. The general consensus of the admin corps was leave him alone, he makes occasional minor mistakes and won't talk, but his overall contributions are net positive by far, so let him carry on. Herostratus (talk) 01:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Cliff1911 has more than 40,000 edits and it looks like every one of them is mainspace. He hasn't used an edit summary in his last few thousand edits, and may never have used them. He adds material to articles, much of it potentially useful, but never adds sources. He has had hundreds of comments left on his talk page, but has never responded, ever. This is the world's worst case of WP:IDHT. How do you deal with an editor who refuses to follow policy and refuses to communicate about not following policy? Alansohn (talk) 01:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- In the past, IPs have gotten blocks around here just because they won't respond to Talk page comments. I've got to think the same would apply to account-holding editors. This is supposed to be a collaborative environment, and not responding to queries, etc. pretty much destroys that. The other editor I can think of in this vein is basically a Wikignome, and about 80% of his edits are constructive, while the other 20% are more unhelpful, but their edits are so gnomish that no one has pursued it further in that case. But I'm of the opinion that not responding to queries at all is unhelpful, no matter the "quality" of the edits, and can and should be the basis for Admin action. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The editor helps create content without creating drama. Leave him alone. GregJackP Boomer! 04:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Editors don't edit or create content in a vacuum. Is an editor really adhering to the fourth pillar if they never communicate... well, ever?! Look, I'm not saying to block for not communicating in this instance. But the discussion on their Talk page is entirely correct – the first time this editor commits an infraction, possibly even an inadvertent one, they're likely to end up indef blocked because the Admins will have no other choice if they never communicate. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Amazing that the only non-mainspace edits were also article edits, to an article that's now in someone's userspace (and someone might want to take a look at that too). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Editors don't edit or create content in a vacuum. Is an editor really adhering to the fourth pillar if they never communicate... well, ever?! Look, I'm not saying to block for not communicating in this instance. But the discussion on their Talk page is entirely correct – the first time this editor commits an infraction, possibly even an inadvertent one, they're likely to end up indef blocked because the Admins will have no other choice if they never communicate. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The editor helps create content without creating drama. Leave him alone. GregJackP Boomer! 04:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd probably recommend an attention getting block. I can't remember the name of the editor but I remember a similar case from a year or so back where an editor refused to reply to comments on talk pages. If I remember correctly, it took 1-2 blocks for him to realize that people meant business and he eventually began responding to comments and leaving edit summaries. Honestly... at this point he's been getting so many warnings that at this point the only way to show him that we're serious about talking with other editors is to actually back up our words with actions. While he may have made beneficial edits, he's also made some non-beneficial edits and he's continued to do this despite several very clear warnings about a lack of sourcing. I'm of the mind that his continued actions (despite warnings) shows a refusal to follow the rules. If this were any other editor he'd have been given at least 1-2 warning blocks by now. The only reason he hasn't received them is because he hasn't responded to anything. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support attention-getting block. If he were just making helpful edits, it would be no issue. But there's some problems with his edits. Looking at his talk page, he doesn't just add info, he removes it without explanation, and does not respond/correct various problems like disambiguation links he adds. —Мандичка 😜 11:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- A very recent precedent of a user making (some) bad edits and refusing to discuss with others, leading to them being blocked. Lugnuts 10:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Of course, it's worth noting that the result of that was that the blocked user in question went the sockpuppet route... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support attention-getting block. If he doesn't want to communicate with people that is absolutely fine, but that does not mean that he can continue editing in a way which, whilst it is not going to break enWiki, has received sufficient attention here and on his talk page from numerous editors that it is now disruptive. I don't really see a material difference between his behaviour and point 5 of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. His behviour is taking up more and more of other editor's time. I don't really see why he should not be blocked until he states, however briefly that he will act on the repeated suggestions of the community as I don't see a single post on his talk page that could be deemed to be a positive reaction to his editing. If he then wishes to return to silence that is his choice Fenix down (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Not yet. We've had a few of these lately, which inspired me to write WP:ENGAGE. The key here is asking how much disruption has he caused. One or two recent reverts is not enough. I've put him on notice, pointed him to the information that he can get blocked if he continues to revert without talking about it, the fair thing is to wait and see if he stops reverting. No one is required to talk here, as long as they aren't doing something that requires talking. The last thing we want to do is run someone off when it isn't necessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Good Lord. Leave him/her alone. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- "Not yet"? "Leave him/her alone"? Cliff1911 has made 40,000 edits in seven years, refuses to leave edit summaries, refuses to communicate and -- most fundamentally -- refuses to add sources for anything. If either Dennis Brown or Anthonyhcole would follow every one of Cliff1911's edits and add the reliable and verifiable sources required for these edits, I'd have no issue. Until then, we have an editor who refuses to follow bedrock Misplaced Pages policy and who seems to be operating in their own encyclopedia, not ours. Alansohn (talk) 14:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The issue with this is that he's done this for years and he's been receiving warnings about his various edits since 2008. This post from 2011 shows that he'd been warned several times. He's clearly been warned dozens upon dozens of times about his editing and at this point he should be clearly aware that we want him to at least respond when people have issue with him. I mean, he's been brought to ANI TWICE, both in2013. He never responded in either circumstance and he was never blocked. At this point he's extremely unlikely to pay any attention to further warnings. I mean, at this point our lack of action is pretty much giving him the message that not only are his actions OK, but that Misplaced Pages is condoning his actions because he made a lot of edits. I mean, that's the message I'm getting from all of this, that an editor can be problematic and have the same problems over a period of six years and never actually have to face repercussions for repeatedly going against people's requests and Misplaced Pages policy. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Think about it this way: if he'd responded to us and basically told us "no way, I'm going to keep doing this, forget you guys" then we'd have at least blocked him temporarily. Well, that's pretty much what he's telling us with his outright refusal to even respond to anything. I mean, what does he care? If we continue on the way we have, he has nothing to fear - he doesn't have to change since people will argue that his amount of edits gives him immunity. (And yes, that is essentially what is being said here.) The length and amount of edits are nothing to sneeze at, but right now this is pretty much setting a dangerous example, that Misplaced Pages will turn a blind eye to problematic editors if they exist long enough on Misplaced Pages and edit enough. I mean, come on guys- this guy isn't going to change unless we make him pay attention and if he's not going to change then he's going to continue to make problematic edits, leave no edit summary, and refuse to talk with other editors. I'm not saying we should hang his head on a spike and never allow him to edit again, but clearly he's not going to change or respond unless he's at least given a 2-3 day (or even a week) block that forces him to stop and respond. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- When I get time, I'm going to try to count how many of his last 50-100 edits have been unsourced. I'd say that the bulk of them (like 70-80%) appear to unsourced and while these aren't huge BLP concerns (ie, he's not saying that Cher married a fish), they're still BLP concerns because they're unsourced. He's fully aware that we require sources, yet he also refuses to source. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You don't have to add citations to your edits. If someone challenges what you add without a good citation they may delete your contribution. I'm fairly sure edit summaries aren't mandatory either - at least, they weren't the last time I looked. Perhaps I misunderstood the above, but I thought his/her contributions were good faith efforts and generally good. I thought he/she wasn't vandalising, edit-warring or in any other way harming the encyclopaedia. If I've got that wrong, I apologise. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is correct, though most people start to get upset when they keep finding their edits get reverted and either learn policy or quit. Ritchie333 15:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You don't have to add citations to your edits. If someone challenges what you add without a good citation they may delete your contribution. I'm fairly sure edit summaries aren't mandatory either - at least, they weren't the last time I looked. Perhaps I misunderstood the above, but I thought his/her contributions were good faith efforts and generally good. I thought he/she wasn't vandalising, edit-warring or in any other way harming the encyclopaedia. If I've got that wrong, I apologise. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Refusing to talk isn't a violation of policy, and specifically, a person can NOT be compelled to participate at ANI. He's been put on notice: if he edit wars (an actual violation), then he will be blocked. Blocking him solely because we want him to talk isn't supported in policy. Unless someone can point to a specific policy that he is violating, then a block won't stand, as it would blocking to force them to do what we WANT them to do, not what policy requires. We aren't here to do that. There are many, many individuals like this here at Misplaced Pages, who act in good faith but won't talk. I'm not prepared to get into the psychology of it, but it is common enough. If he edit wars, I will happily block for 24 hours the first time, and otherwise follow normal procedure for behavioral issues. Not talking, by itself, is not a behavioral policy violation. It is a pain, but not a violation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I've spun through the last couple of hundred edits by this editor, and I cannot see any obvious clear policy violation other than possibly mild violations of WP:BLP through adding unsourced content. Most of the work seems to be insignificant plot summary gnoming. As Dennis says, if he starts to edit-war or violate real policies that can be backed with diffs, we'll look into it. Ritchie333 15:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think that's where I am now too. But I agree with the discussion on his Talk page as well – if it ever comes to a block, it'll probably have to be an indef, as that may be the only way to get this editor to communicate... In the meantime, if this editor continues to add anymore unsourced info to any BLPs, they should simply be reverted as a matter of course. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely do not block this person. The only question for this particular person, since he's so unusual, is: is he a net positive, or not? If he's not, kick him off for good. If he is, leave him alone.
We cannot be at all certain that he is even aware of the existence of his user page, his talk page, or article talk pages, or how to use them. Any block of this person would perforce be permanent in my opinion, since he would presumably continue editing exactly as before when the block expires (which would then require longer and longer blocks, unless we were to back down), and he would presumably be unwilling (or possibly unable) to request reinstatement.
Some situations just need a good leaving alone. This is one of them. Herostratus (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The question we should be asking is whether the disruption caused by this editor outweighs their positive contributions. While Dennis Brown's essay is very good and highlights good reasons why users should strive to communicate, there is no policy that requires any user to respond to talk messages or to use edit summaries, and I think it sets a poor precedent to start sanctioning users just because they don't use their talk pages. From what I see, this is an editor who is occasionally an inconvenience, but the disruption is extremely minor, and a long way off from being blocked under WP:CIR or any other guideline/policy. We all probably have better things to do. Ivanvector (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- While it may not be an "explicit policy", communication is absolutely in an implicit requirement of the fourth pillar. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- The calls for an "attention-getting block" are ridiculous. So this guy/gal operates in this odd way -- big deal. On balance he's way more helping than hurting, so leave him for God's sake alone. EEng (talk) 02:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- We can, but you've got to figure that he's had dozens of complaints over his edits and thousands of unsourced BLP edits. He's been asked to explain his edits multiple, multiple times. My biggest point with this is that the only thing he has going for him is that he's edited a lot. It's kind of well... this is what people talk about when they say that we play favorites. We could just ignore him now, but I can guarantee that he's going to end up being brought up at ANI again and I can guarantee that he's going to continue to collect complaints on his talk page from multiple different editors. Maybe it seems like this is all minor, but what we have here is essentially someone who is following their own rules and doesn't even have the consideration to at least respond to people's complaints. He's not following Misplaced Pages's rules, he's following his rules. If the two come together, then that seems to be mostly coincidental than anything else - he's been warned about several policies (using citations, for example)... and his reaction was to continue to ignore those policies. It looks pretty clear that nothing is going to be done to him, but I still have to extend the warning that eventually it's going to become necessary. He's adding BLP material without any sort of citation. The material may seem minor, but what happens when he adds something major? Something that someone might actually want to complain to Misplaced Pages about? What do we do then? Just say "oh, he edits a lot and refuses to talk to anyone, but he edits a lot, he gets a pass"? He doesn't have to write a book or anything, but to my knowledge he's never spoken to anyone since he's signed up with Misplaced Pages and there have been multiple complaints about him - and those are just the ones on his talk page and at ANI. I have no doubt that there are probably at least a few dozen more in the edit summaries of the articles he's edited. Long story short, at some point we're going to have to deal with his BLP violations (even though they may seem minor to some) and his constant refusal to talk to anyone or to even follow basic guidelines. If he'd at least started using citations in his edits that'd be some improvement, but I don't see where he's ever really done even that. I really don't think that a long edit history and seemingly beneficial edits should give you immunity to everything on Misplaced Pages. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 03:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- If you want to keep pushing this, you need to stop saying he has to use citations. Except in certain circumstances, citations aren't actually required. Is he disruptively restoring unsourced material removed by other editors? I really get the feeling a few people just can't stand this guy's eccentricity. It's weird but leave him alone. EEng (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Uh... sourcing absolutely is a requirement on BLPs, which is what this discussion has been about. Yeah, sure, explicit sourcing isn't needed on all articles. But it pretty much always in on BLPs – adding unsourced material to BLPs is definitely not "OK" in most of the circumstances that count. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Is he putting in negative or controversial BLP material? And the graph above showing how all his edits are to articles....we are here to build an encyclopedia, so someone who is dominated by article edits doesn't inspire me to instablock. We keep rehashing the same arguments, but he has been warned, and unless he has new actions that warrant a block, then blocking is improper. And this talk of an indef block is completely out of policy. We use escalating blocks as needed, we don't indef block someone out of the gate for stuff like this. The tone is almost vindictive and I simply don't understand why, and frankly, it doesn't matter: we don't block punitively, we block to prevent disruption, meaning even if he needed a block, it should be proportional to the risk he poses, NOT just to twist his arm. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 06:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dennis, please see what I said above, as a follow-up to Ritchie – I don't think a block here is appropriate right now. That said, if this editor is adding unsourced material to BLPs, it should essentially be reverted as a matter of course. I'd like to believe that such reversions much get this editor to actually communicate then, but I suspect it's too much to hope for... But my overall point stands – we are building an encyclopedia together, in a collaborate environment, and as such communication is key. Those editors that choose not to communicate (like, at all) will sooner or later likely crop up as a problem. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, when that actually happens we can deal with it. Or are we putting people in jail now for crimes we predict they will commit? EEng (talk) 13:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I think the problem is that Cliff's editing is already an issue – not a "blockable" issue – but an issue (e.g. adding content without sources, adding overlong plot summaries as was potentially done at The Postman (film), etc.), nonetheless. Which I think is Tokyogirl79's point. And that's where the lack of a communication becomes a problem – without communication, there's little hope of getting across exactly what others' problems with Cliff's editing is (the details just won't come across in single templated messages, even assuming Cliff is reading those), or prodding Cliff to change and improve as an editor. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- That's pretty much my point: he's already done things that people have had issues with and he's had people flat out ask him to source material and to communicate. He's done neither of those things despite many, many, many requests. There's something very troublesome about the fact that we have an editor that continually refuses to add sources to articles or talk to anyone. The lack of communication wouldn't be as huge of an issue if he would just do something to show that he's actually listening to anything anyone says to him. That's what is most concerning here - he doesn't even seem to show that he's willing to do even the smallest amount of work to back up a fact with a source. It doesn't matter if it's something seemingly small or not - what bothers me is the implication here that Cliff is essentially editing by his own rules. Not Misplaced Pages's rules, but Cliff's rules. What if something changes and it's something that's direly serious? He clearly doesn't respond to comments on his talk page or anywhere else, nor does he even show any indication that it has even registered? That leaves Misplaced Pages liable for pretty much everything that he writes. It may seem small because the edits seem inconsequential to everyone else, but what if he writes something that's blatantly incorrect and someone takes serious offense to it? He's obviously not going to respond at that point in time either, nor will he likely pay any attention to anything anyone writes. Basically, what bothers me most here is his continued refusal to communicate and his displayed indifference to the fact that people have repeatedly asked him to edit within policy. Odds are that this is going to end with nothing done to him, but mark my words - this will be back on ANI in the future and eventually something will have to be done. I just really dislike the fact that the only thing this guy has going for him is a long edit history. We've temp blocked newer users with less edits for stuff like this (small edits that seem inconsequential, no communication) so it just seems massively unfair for us to allow an older user to get away with this. I mean, people accuse us of having a bias all the time and while most of the time it's full of crap, stuff like this does kind of lend credence to this. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 07:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I think the problem is that Cliff's editing is already an issue – not a "blockable" issue – but an issue (e.g. adding content without sources, adding overlong plot summaries as was potentially done at The Postman (film), etc.), nonetheless. Which I think is Tokyogirl79's point. And that's where the lack of a communication becomes a problem – without communication, there's little hope of getting across exactly what others' problems with Cliff's editing is (the details just won't come across in single templated messages, even assuming Cliff is reading those), or prodding Cliff to change and improve as an editor. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, when that actually happens we can deal with it. Or are we putting people in jail now for crimes we predict they will commit? EEng (talk) 13:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dennis, please see what I said above, as a follow-up to Ritchie – I don't think a block here is appropriate right now. That said, if this editor is adding unsourced material to BLPs, it should essentially be reverted as a matter of course. I'd like to believe that such reversions much get this editor to actually communicate then, but I suspect it's too much to hope for... But my overall point stands – we are building an encyclopedia together, in a collaborate environment, and as such communication is key. Those editors that choose not to communicate (like, at all) will sooner or later likely crop up as a problem. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Is he putting in negative or controversial BLP material? And the graph above showing how all his edits are to articles....we are here to build an encyclopedia, so someone who is dominated by article edits doesn't inspire me to instablock. We keep rehashing the same arguments, but he has been warned, and unless he has new actions that warrant a block, then blocking is improper. And this talk of an indef block is completely out of policy. We use escalating blocks as needed, we don't indef block someone out of the gate for stuff like this. The tone is almost vindictive and I simply don't understand why, and frankly, it doesn't matter: we don't block punitively, we block to prevent disruption, meaning even if he needed a block, it should be proportional to the risk he poses, NOT just to twist his arm. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 06:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Uh... sourcing absolutely is a requirement on BLPs, which is what this discussion has been about. Yeah, sure, explicit sourcing isn't needed on all articles. But it pretty much always in on BLPs – adding unsourced material to BLPs is definitely not "OK" in most of the circumstances that count. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- If you want to keep pushing this, you need to stop saying he has to use citations. Except in certain circumstances, citations aren't actually required. Is he disruptively restoring unsourced material removed by other editors? I really get the feeling a few people just can't stand this guy's eccentricity. It's weird but leave him alone. EEng (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Let me give an example: He was threatened with a blcok by an editor on his talk page for adding someone to the list of people born in Goldfield, Nevada. It was a final warning. It took me all of 5 seconds to find a source proving this fact: (there are others, I just grabbed this one). It was an uncontroversial fact about someone who died 13 years ago. Magnolia677 threatening him was completely inappropriate. It wasn't a BLP issue. People put in correct but unsourced facts all the time, it is how a Wiki works. WP:V does NOT require we source all facts. It requires than they are able to be sourced, and it assumes that someone else will source them. Obviously contentious facts about living people should be avoided, but this isn't the case here, this was a matter of where a dead guy was born. It isn't against policy to add this to an article, and it isn't proper to warn. Period. Revert as unsourced or simply go find a source like I did, we are here to build an encyclopedia, after all, but you don't warn or block. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 07:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, the level 4 on that was overkill. So was the level 1 vandalism warning that Cliff just got from User:NeoBatfreak for the additions to The Postman (film) – Cliff's plot summaries there might have been over-long, but they certainly weren't vandalism... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:22, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dennis Brown, it's impressive that it too you "all of 5 seconds to find a source". The problem is that Cliff1911 refused to spend those 5 seconds. He's never done it. He won't add sources, he won't leave edit summaries and he won't respond to talk page messages. If you're willing to clean up the crap he leaves behind after each and every edit of his, adding the required sources that he refuses to add, that's great for you, but Cliff1911 isn't doing that. We're here to build an encyclopedia by working collaboratively; he isn't. Alansohn (talk) 05:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- That pie chart must be unique for that number of edits on Misplaced Pages. However, what nobody has noticed or cared to mention is he extroadinary cyclic monthly editing pattern. Now that tells a story, but not one for which I am going to commit an indiscretion by publicly hypothesising. I say we leave well alone. If he does s do something egregious enough to be blockworthy, we block, but certainly not before. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Personal attack by User:Khaleejian against User:Elspamo4
User:Khaleejian called User:Elspamo4 "spammer" (in reference to his username) and "too butthurt" here in response to a completely legitimate action by User:Elspamo4. User:Khaleejian also previously renamed the same page to a more POV name without even mentioning it on the talk page, let alone creating consensus for it.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- In the defense of the page move, it looks like Murbarak the Great is a nickname/title that's used (see this article at Britannica.com, although it's not the common name and as such the article should remain at Mubarak Al-Sabah. I've left him a warning on his userpage about responding with hostility. If he does anything else that's hostile then I'd recommend a cautionary block, depending on how he responds or acts. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've also asked that he not move any pages without trying to get a consensus, mostly because he's a new user and because sometimes pages are under specific names for specific reasons. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. The page move I was referring to was of "Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen" to "Saudi Arabia-led war on Yemen", though it is correct he also moved Mubarak Al-Sabah.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ahh... that would definitely explain the POV move. It looks like there's still a redirect so if nobody objects I'll delete this. I'll give it a few minutes to make sure that nobody minds before doing this, though. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 12:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've deleted it since it was a POV move and nobody has voiced any reason here for it to remain as a redirect. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is definitely worth keeping an eye on Khaleejian's edits. He has made some very questionable edits, some of which could be seen as disruptive and some of which are POV-pushing. In my view, this instance of incivility is overshadowed by his inappropriate article contributions. Elspamo4 (talk) 13:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- FYI he's also began Project Pages on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islamic State (ISIS) and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject East Turkestan Islamic Movement. I can see the ISIL one being worthy considering the traffic, sensitive information and related pages, but ETIM? There isn't even a project page for East Turkestan or Xinjiang.... Of course, I only know he founded these because I looked at his user page, making me a "sad person with too much time on their hands." —Мандичка 😜 14:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'd like to note that neither project was approved by the council. Winner 42 Talk to me! 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Doesn't look like he's done much work on them but make userboxes to stick ok his userpage. He also wants to rename the ISIL article to Islamic State (despite recent failed rename proposal). —Мандичка 😜 14:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Might this be outing 193.79.181.104 (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting. Which forum is this and where can I join? J/K —Мандичка 😜 14:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Topic ban user Huhshyeh from article Popular Front of India
User Huhshyeh has a single purpose account for Popular Front of India, since 2011 he is exclusively or mainly editing this page see his contribution. Given article is subject of discretionary sanctions by arbitration committee. The organization is alleged to be militant organization but claimed to be social organization. User Huhshyeh is exclusively editing this article since 4 years and he adds only "social work" of organization that too from unreliable sources like "Muslim mirror" "two cirles" etc. He is probably activist of that organization or paid editor for that organization. He has been involved in edit wars on the page. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 15:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard hasn't been shut down by the recent controversy about a particular block, this would be more efficiently dispositioned at Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon yes you said earlier about arbitration but I thought first I should take this matter to ANI, also i'm having some problem on arbitration as I'm relatively new and don't know how things work at arbitration yet. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I want to give one stat, till now this user has made 365 main space edits xtools, out of 365 there are 194 edits on Popular Front of India, 30 edits on Social Democratic Party of India which is political wing on Popular Front of India, 20 edits on Social Justice conference which is another wing of Popular Front of India. So out of 365 there are 244 edits he made only on pages related to one organization and that too "promotes" that organization using unreliable sources and pushing POV for alleged militant organization. Rest of his edits came on organizations which oppose "Popular Front of India" and obviously he defamed those organization. Hence this user is surely activist of that organization and this is his single purpose promotion only account since years. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon, I would ask you not to take User:Human3015 fully. I was expecting him to provide accurate info atleast for this audience. So please have his statements double-checked, the most obvious one being "Social Justice conference being a wing of the organiation" PFI-wonder how a conference can be a wing? Also my last 100 edits were quite diverse I'd say, inclusive of a alternate political party Aam Aadmi Party, edit following an Bollywood actress ] open letter in support to women's safety, on the Giant Panda new triplet births, on evolving of the Ebola virus and an edit on Germany at the FIFA World Cup.
The mention by User:Human3015 of edits protraying the right wing truths of the ] - an organisation banned thrice in India for it's murdering of the father of the Nation Mahatma Gandhi amongst other extremities, is what hurts our "human" friend the most? Ironic, I'd say, given the intro the user has given. As requested, before, please have the page semi-protected Huhshyeh (talk)
NPOV and repeated unwarranted reverts by User:Human3015 & User:Irrigator & media sources
Am reproducing the talk on the page Popular Front of India .ywoo Pls have a check on the history of reverts unsupported by full facts by both user Human3015 and his alias User:Irrigator. Wonder how the user discredits sources "Muslim mirror" "two cirles", and now added 2 more to the list "Mangalorean.com" and "daijiworld.com", while source like papers like the New Indian Express have been taken to task by the Press Council of India asking around 10 papers to "more careful" in publish such sensitive information. Oh yes, this information being from a minority newspapers should be wrongfully giving info on the PCI directives as well, I should suppose. Wonder where the space for alternate media went in WP? While the PCI directs 10 main streams newspaper to be careful of the content, and even asked them to publish reverts, small local newspaper - four of them atleast in User:Human3015 view-are discreditted without any incident?
User:Human3015, I don't believe it's your or User:Irrigator or editors group created to unwarrantly discredit sources and a well wisher of alternate politics, supporter of backward and minority sections in an already marginalised Indian society. So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages, and not a portal for main stream media. If that's not inline with the WP Ideology, let the WP Admins kindly communicate that. User:Human3015 can go ahead to discredit Huhshyeh like you try to discredit the 4 alternate smaller newspapers . I edit with the same user, while this pages as seen a lot of aliases trying to blanks out the positives; as I have maintained in my intro, I stand for alternatives and against bias. Huhshyeh (talk)
s "Human3015 should stop giving false information and justify reverts. Recent revert by the same user is false is 2 counts : "Reverting content from unreliable sources and restoring deletion of sourced content from reliable sources" @Human 3015, pls explain 1. Reverting content from unreliable sources : which the "reliable" sources? 2. restoring deletion of sourced content from reliable sources : please read again - there is no deletion of any sourced content here.
Edit, but simply don't revert, and don't falsify info Huhshyeh (talk)
Human3015simply doesn't read, simply don't revert - there is no PFI mentioned in the news sources. Hence section "Murder of VishalKumar" removed Huhshyeh (talk)"
Alias Irrigator seems to have conveniently left out the media being discreditted by the very source in his revert "https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Popular_Front_of_India&oldid=668701237". @WP Admin, please note alias User:Irrigator and User:Human3015 for NPOV, selective omissions and unsupported reverts — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huhshyeh (talk • contribs) 07:46, June 27, 2015 (UTC)
References
- http://coastaldigest.com/index.php/news/58892-ib-nia-press-council-rubbish-medias-terror-claim-on-pfi
- http://muslimmirror.com/eng/press-council-to-hear-pfis-complaints-against-10-dailies-on-16-july
- Comment @Huhshyeh:, we are not talking about content dispute here. Here questions are, Is it your single purpose account? Are you activist of PFI? Are you on Misplaced Pages exclusively to promote PFI? --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 10:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment already answered in above section. please re-read as you always miss out the main points Huhshyeh (talk)
- To the Admins: I will quote two key sentenses of Huhshyeh which clearly suggests that he is hardcore activist of Popular Front of India and he is here on wikipedia just to promote the organization.
- Quote 1: The mention by User:Human3015 of edits protraying the right wing truths of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh - an organisation banned thrice in India for it's murdering of the father of the Nation Mahatma Gandhi amongst other extremities, is what hurts our "human" friend the most? Ironic, I'd say, given the intro the user has given
- Quote 2: editors group created to unwarrantly discredit sources and a well wisher of alternate politics, supporter of backward and minority sections in an already marginalised Indian society. So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages, and not a portal for main stream media. If that's not inline with the WP Ideology, let the WP Admins kindly communicate that.
Here his statements clearly suggests that he is activist of PFI. He himself admiting that his edits are not belongs to "mainstreame media" but from "alternative sources". From his attitude of talking we can feel how committed he is to particular philosophy. As I said earlier in my comments xtools Huhshyeh shows that his nearly 70% of main space edits came on Popular Front of India(PFI) and its related wings. Remaining most of 30% edits came on organizations who oppose PFI. He is mainly editing same page since 4 years from unreliable sources. I demand to topic ban this user from said page. Thank you. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 14:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Glad that Human3015 didn't omit the key part of the paragraph like he usually does in his numerous reverts (see above section for details) "So there is nothing wrong in giving the giving out the other side of the story that is usually unsaid and partially brought out. This is Misplaced Pages," WP isn't a the encyclopedia of the Mainstream media, it's the complete balanced factbook avaliable online. So all news -alternative and main stream- concerning any topic need to highlighted, not just the bias of a person part of a fascist right-wing thrice banned organisation ,the RSS . Am for alternatives, the complete truth - and you don't have to be a part of any organisation for that. Let the WP Admin decide accordingly. Huhshyeh (talk)
- Comment from the sidelines: This is part of an ongoing war between pro-Pakistani and pro-Indian editors here on en-WP, with tit-for-tat reports at SPI, admin/forum shopping and everything else you can imagine, a war that is the direct result of Darkness Shines getting banned, a ban that changed the balance between the warring parties. A balance that until that ban had made Indo-Pakistani articles relatively peaceful (compared to what they are now). Thomas.W 14:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to second what Robert McClenon said above, this is better addressed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement as all involved parties seem to been notified of of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan and the subsequent motion. —SpacemanSpiff 15:04, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Huhshyeh:, as admin suggested, I will go for Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, but lets resolve this issue here instead of wasting time in arbitration. You should not revert edits done by other users from reliable sources just because they project negative image of your organization Popular Front of India, also you should not include lay claims from un-reliable sources just to project positive image of your organization. In some extent positive claims are ok even if they are from un-reliable sources, but if you keep on adding those claims then its not fair. --Human3015 knock knock • 10:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon ask you to check the validity of the reverts done, and if they do not adhere to the WP norms. The changes and reverts from end have been to all sides of the same story. And I can see users like Human3015 and Irrigator focus on the allegation, allegation confirmed by the Press Council of India to be false, esp. the claim of "militant" organisation - something falsely highlighted by the obvious supporter of a banned fascist organisation. I don't want to join that bandwagon, allege something because the PFI is anti-fascist, and finally eat our own hand. I don't represent any organisation, but am for, as my intro clearly says, to bring out the completeness of facts, facts that are shown skewed for the vested interest of some. I also wonder how credible users like Human3015, who discredit 4 sources in a week viz. "Mangalorean.com", "daijiworld.com", Coastal digest and Muslim Mirror all because they are not mainstream or from a minority section or both. I suggest that Human3015 stick to the good ideal he has mentioned in his intro. As for edit and reverts, reason are clearly mentioned with clarifications in the talk page, and such justified transparent reverts shall be done for the PFI, AAP, RSS, Giant Panda Shenaz Treasury,Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar or any future contribution from Huhshyeh. Re-request that the PFI page in particular be semi-protected so that contributions for other pages can be concentrated as well, no just to keep the neutrality of a set of pages. Let's go the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, if needed, justice should be served. Thank you Robert, neutral editors, and admins 178.152.236.76 (talk)
- Making allegations of sockpuppetry at editors without documentation isn't useful, and saying that User:Irrigator is an alias of User:Human3015 is either a sloppy use of language or a claim of sockpuppetry. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Robert McClenon, allegation without proof isn't appropriate - shall refrain from doing so. Pls do excuse me for the same. Incidentally, it's about the unsupported allegations on the PFI page that started all this. In any case, there is a section "Reverts" started out in the talk page, I think all of editors can reach common ground, mostly making the need for any further escalation unnecessary. Request to have page semi-protected is once again put forward; history of the page shows many blanking out from various IPs. Thanks for your time. Happy editing Huhshyeh (talk)
Self-recall for The Rambling Man
The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Hello all. I'd like to request a self-recall, i.e. comments and opinions as to whether I should remain an admin just a touch more than eight years in the role. Recent events have demonstrated that there are serious question marks over my ability to conduct myself as an admin, and that I may be bringing the rest of the "admin corps" into disrespect; indeed I have often been cited as "one of the worst admins" and that I have "no credibility" on Misplaced Pages. While I fully accept my approach in many places and discussions has been abrasive and sometimes unnecessarily fighty, but I have never knowingly abused the tools afforded my by the admin bit. For openness, I have, in the past, been temporarily blocked for transgression of an IBAN and I was recently blocked by a fellow admin for a BLP violation (the outcome of which is discussed in some detail in sections above). The latter, and its subsequent fallout has determined this course of action.
The time has come that I do the right thing and submit myself to the community (well, this community) for scrutiny. For what it's worth, I'd prefer to keep the bit in order to continue to help out as and when necessary, and will endeavour to moderate my "snippiness" in either case. Naturally, I will stand by the result of the consensus as closed by an uninvolved admin. Thanks to all those who take the time to comment, pro or con or otherwise. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- This being ANI, I claim an exception to the IBAN, so that I can make this statement: I have had a number of disagreements with TRM over various issues, but I cannot think of any instances where he has abused his admin authority. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Isn't this usually done through a Misplaced Pages:Administrator review? I know that this method isn't used a lot but, in my experience, ANI can be a forum where there is often more heat than light. I think you would want a careful consideration of your tenure, not just editors' thumbs up or thumbs down reactions. Liz 16:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know, I wasn't aware. I'll leave a note there after I've put my son to bed. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Is there any advantage to taking it over there? That looks like a forgotten corner of the Misplaced Pages. (I can almost literally see the cobwebs...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I tend to agree, there's one review there which has had no comments for about seven weeks. I'm "happy" to use this place right now, after all it seems to be the place where my most vociferous critics spend a lot of time. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds like a waste of time to me, as if there isn't enough of that going on already. I don't think there are many concerns by significant amounts here over Rambling's Man's general conduct. I might be wrong, but I can't see what benefit giving you a grilling would achieve here. If you've ever been combative, it's perfectly understandable given the arrogance of some of the people on the site.♦Dr. Blofeld 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
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- I've had some issues with your style in the past, but not with your admin tools. Moderating your snippiness, as you put it, is all I'd ever ask for, and I'm glad to see that you're gonna try to do so. Your admin bit is fine by me. (and yeah, liz might be right about the whole bureaucracy thing, but whatevs.)Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- No issues, Rambling Man, will wait patiently for a GA review, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The only thing you did wrong was edit warring, which a number of editors have gotten a bit heated and done over the years. That's an editorial / judgment error, not an admin abuse issue. The worst sanction I could possibly see happening (if Kww hadn't abused his sysop bit) would have been you and Kww getting blocked 24 hours for making a few too many reverts. ;) Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) My advice? – Take a one-year self-initiated sabbatical (after which point you can simply request your tools be returned, if you after a year you still desire to reclaim your tools). I haven't seen or heard of any evidence of abuse of your Admin tools. But your interactions with other editors leaves much to be desired. Further, you seem to enjoy "content creation" more than Admin'ing more anyway. So I can't help but think that a one-year sabbatical might be the best for all involved, perhaps most for yourself. Please know that this is nothing more than a good faith suggestion. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting, although resigning the bit now would 100% be considered "under a cloud", so requesting it back would require an RFA. And it doesn't seem to be my admin'ing that's called into question that often anyway.... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't see it as "taking a leave under a cloud" – if it's voluntary, it's kosher. (I.E. No one would be "forcing" you to take a sabbatical.) I don't know the particulars of the process, but I don't think an RfA would be required here (would it?...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Just a couple of days after being blocked for a perceived violation of the BLP policy? I think cloudy would be understating it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- A "block" that's been universally perceived as being improperly levied. (Look, I don't want to see Kww desysop'ed for that – but even I think that your block in that situation was completely inappropriate, and should never have been enacted...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- A "block" which has just been left forever in my block log without any kind of problem for the blocking admin. Anyway, thanks for your advice, I'll take it all onboard. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- A "block" that's been universally perceived as being improperly levied. (Look, I don't want to see Kww desysop'ed for that – but even I think that your block in that situation was completely inappropriate, and should never have been enacted...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Just a couple of days after being blocked for a perceived violation of the BLP policy? I think cloudy would be understating it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't see it as "taking a leave under a cloud" – if it's voluntary, it's kosher. (I.E. No one would be "forcing" you to take a sabbatical.) I don't know the particulars of the process, but I don't think an RfA would be required here (would it?...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting, although resigning the bit now would 100% be considered "under a cloud", so requesting it back would require an RFA. And it doesn't seem to be my admin'ing that's called into question that often anyway.... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You're fine, TRM (I don't mean that in an admiring your physique way; you may be fine in that way too, who knows?, not me). You have the tact of a sledgehammer and the finesse of a paving slab though. Belle (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- No issues. Best of luck, JoeSperrazza (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Your admining is fine. The role of administrators as ambassadors or whatnot is overstated. Alakzi (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- There are two things about the way Adminships are currently viewed by many around here that really quite bother me: 1) that Adminships should be "lifetime appointments" (I couldn't disagree more with this), and 2) that the only consideration that should go into evaluating an Admin is their use (or abuse) of "the tools". The second one has become a real stumbling block around here to improving the Admin corps IMO. The fact is Admins basically serve a supervisory role on this project, and in real organizations appraising supervisors goes beyond just whether they "unjustly sacked someone" and looks at how they interact with underlings (and with each other). The truth of the matter is that a very important part of an Admin's job is in fact interaction with other editors (often esp. newbies). Take a look at two recent RfA's, Ritchie333's and NeilN's – in both cases, a recurring theme for their being promoted was their positive interactions with other editors, especially new editors. Even with Ser Amantio di Nicolao's current RfA, a recurring theme is the positive interactions other editors have had with him... So, really, I could not disagree more with the statement,
"The role of administrators as ambassadors or whatnot is overstated."
Interaction with other editors is of paramount importance in appraising how an Admin is doing their job. It's not just about "tools". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Administrators are not part of a rigid power structure; they are held directly accountable to the community. There are plenty "real" organisations which operate horizontally. A candidate's feistiness serves as an indicator of the possibility of their abusing the tools; it is not the expectation that admins have otherwise got to behave better than the herd. Trying to get along with each other is important for everyone. Alakzi (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Again, we're getting lost in the obsessive focus on the "tools". Appropriate interaction is especially important from Admins. Admins should and must be held to a higher standard. Saying there isn't a "rigid power structure" doesn't negate that there is one, in fact. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I do not agree that admins should be held to a higher behavioural standard than the rest of us and hence I do not consider his frequent abrasiveness to be a reason to resign. You're begging the question; yes, if you claim that admins must behave better, then there is a power structure. Do note, I do think that admins need to be on their best behaviour when doing admin work. Alakzi (talk) 18:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- There are two things about the way Adminships are currently viewed by many around here that really quite bother me: 1) that Adminships should be "lifetime appointments" (I couldn't disagree more with this), and 2) that the only consideration that should go into evaluating an Admin is their use (or abuse) of "the tools". The second one has become a real stumbling block around here to improving the Admin corps IMO. The fact is Admins basically serve a supervisory role on this project, and in real organizations appraising supervisors goes beyond just whether they "unjustly sacked someone" and looks at how they interact with underlings (and with each other). The truth of the matter is that a very important part of an Admin's job is in fact interaction with other editors (often esp. newbies). Take a look at two recent RfA's, Ritchie333's and NeilN's – in both cases, a recurring theme for their being promoted was their positive interactions with other editors, especially new editors. Even with Ser Amantio di Nicolao's current RfA, a recurring theme is the positive interactions other editors have had with him... So, really, I could not disagree more with the statement,
- Since you're asking for feedback: Can you explain why you edited through full protection here? --Laser brain (talk) 17:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, my interpretation of that particular admin action was very similar to a recent one where an involved admin was overstepping the mark by shutting down ongoing discussion. It should have been down to someone else to do that. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- But the protection policy doesn't allow administrators to edit through full protection to express displeasure with the protection, or because they don't feel the protection is valid. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well my bad. It was still the wrong thing for the admin to do. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- But the protection policy doesn't allow administrators to edit through full protection to express displeasure with the protection, or because they don't feel the protection is valid. --Laser brain (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, my interpretation of that particular admin action was very similar to a recent one where an involved admin was overstepping the mark by shutting down ongoing discussion. It should have been down to someone else to do that. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Should you resign? Yes. Have you abused your tools? Yes. Why should you resign and how have you abused the tools? You've abused the tools often through your bad behavior, negative attitude, your bully type tactics, and your vulgar language...especially when interacting with editors you dislike. For these reasons you should step down. Caden 18:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Someone needs to learn what admin tools are then. If you think RM has abused them, please show diffs. If not, then you're just using this as an opportunity to make ad hominem comments. - SchroCat (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You are are wonderful editor and a good admin. Sure, there was a bit of warring going on, but it was for the benefit of the project and there was no disruption in mind. I shan't comment specifically to Caden's remark, but I should treat it with the contempt it deserves if I were you. Cassianto|
- Self recall? Is that like total recall but
withwithout the rose tinted spectacles? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)- Thank you Martin, helpful as ever. I really liked the original, ("you're in for a big surprise!" and Sharon Stone practising her serves) but the sequel sucked. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Two weeks. Pedro : Chat 19:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- It was a "reboot" rather than a straight sequel. (Sorry, can't resist...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you Martin, helpful as ever. I really liked the original, ("you're in for a big surprise!" and Sharon Stone practising her serves) but the sequel sucked. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Self recall? Is that like total recall but
- Oppose self recall Long term user, relinquished 'crat rights so clearly not holding on to bits for the sake of them. One of our most active WP:ITN editors, a place that needs more admins. Yep, you're abrasive at times and I think you could knock some of the immediate snark on the head. But then again so could I. No tool misuse has been demonstrated (Caden makes allegations but provides no diffs or other facts) and only a net positive to the project. Pedro : Chat 19:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any reason whatsoever for The Rambling Man to turn in his badge, with the possible exception of his own fatigue (as someone who had voted for his bureaucratship, I didn't see the need for him leaving that club either, personally, but he might have). Mostly per Pedro: The Rambling Man's experience and judgment at WP:ITN are valuable, also as an admin who is able to post hot items to the main page sooner rather than later. And I also agree with the other things Pedro said; more diplomacy and less condescension (and less sensitivity) while arguing wouldn't be undesirable, but that has nothing to do with whether The Rambling Man should remain an admin or not. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Oil drop experiment shows that even senior scientists will modify their own reported findings to fit them within the "orthodoxy" - even when scientists have put effort into attempting to be objective. Groupthink comes about in organizations that actively try to avoid it. Personally, I see this on ITN - three or four editors will remark adding support for a nomination, then an experienced editor will rubbish the proposal with brusque language - making others who support the idea more cautious and more likely to decide not to contribute. Bear in mind that for every senior admin that uses brusque, snide, sardonic, cynical, or dismissive comments, it's possible that more than one good faith editor decides not to engage in a topic area where they feel the quality of discourse is going downhill. I don't want TRM to cease adminship - but he should stop making facetious remarks in places that don't involve vandalism or edit wars (like ITN). -- Aronzak (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- If someone can show me specific diffs showing abuse of tools, I will try to evaluate them fairly despite my generally favorable opinion of TRM. Otherwise, I will assume that in this, as in most accusations of "administrator abuse", it is the admin who is being abused. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have a faint awareness of some history of snippiness, so I applaud TRM for the promise to work on that. I also applaud TRM for the self-awareness that some have expressed concern which led to this request for feedback. I do not support the suggestion (made above) of the relinquishment of tools at this time. I haven't thought through whether this would qualify as "under a cloud" or not and I don't care to investigate it but I understand the possibility so I would not think it wise to resign the tools at this point. I also have too much to do to undertake a review on my own. If there are editors who have concerns they have been invited to provide evidence. I will review the evidence is presented but I won't go looking for myself. So far no evidence has been presented, the unsupported post of Caden notwithstanding. Caden, provide diffs and I'll look at them. If you don't your allegation is likely to be ignored.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Clarification: What I suggested above was a "sabbatical" or "leave of absence" not a "relinquishment". Sabbaticals are part of the job in that other field that involves lots of writing and researching: academia. They should not be viewed as "abnormal" or "unusual" here. How many first-hand reports have we seen from editors who say taking a break from Misplaced Pages was the best thing they've done? And I can think of at least one Admin who said the same thing about taking a break from the tools... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Just resign the tools and get on with editing, which is what this project is supposed to be all about anyway. You don't need a title and a block button to be validated as a Wikipedian. Carrite (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that had crossed my mind, problem is that on the odd occasion I do use the tools, it's normally to things like move ITN items to the main page, or fix errors there. I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian, I would prefer to keep it to assist the project. Perhaps someone could tell me how many times I've used admin tools outside the main page, DYK queue etc maintenance and how many times I've used it to block, protect or delete... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: "I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian" - no but others critically do see it that way - and it makes them less likely to want to vocally disagree in places like the ITN and DYK queue. This is an issue for editor retention, because novice editors feel uncomfortable disagreeing with a senior, longstanding admin. See Feynman's quote about how experienced scientists modify their findings to avoid disagreeing with a senior, published figure. Your admin powers may only be a small part of your time - but the fact that you're an admin makes non-admins cautious to come to the defence of non-admins you make abrasive comments towards, especially on DYK and ITN. Editor retention is one of the big issues with the project - and when junior editors are snapped at on ITN or DYK, they may be less likely to feel like contributing. I don't want you to lose your adminship, just appreciate that being an admin and making abrasive comments makes non-admins unwilling to challenge you, and that can drive down editor retention. I'd prefer TRM to commit to something like involving a wikiproject like editor retention in monthly reviews of conduct, and getting suggestions to improve ITN and DYK for new users. -- Aronzak (talk) 06:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I dislike The Rambling Man as an editor and as a person (at least the part of his person one can know from interacting with him on wiki - possibly he is a swell guy in person but that seems beside the point). On wiki he is perpetually abrasive, condescending and arrogant, dismissive of others' arguments and unwilling to engage in serious discussion, and when one responds to him in kind he is petulant and easily offended. Pretty much classic baiting behavior. I have had quite a few disputes with him, principally at ITN where I consider him to display consistently poor judgment and worse behavior in relation to other editors with whom he disagrees. In that context, I have made many personal attacks against him, all of which I consider to have been well deserved. I have seen him interact in similar ways with others at DYK, though fortunately I have not had to interact with him there. I have however not seen him ever abusing his admin tools. I myself resigned my tools because I realized it was too hard for me to keep civil during heated engagements and when confronted with baiting behavior. TRM is able not to use swearwords and direct personal attacks. But almost all of his comments in conflicts are veiled personal attacks, or passive aggressive baiting. I don't think that is a good way for an admin to interact with others. I dont think he has violated any rule, but I also don't consider him to be a good administrator. I think a good admin is also ideally a nice person who treats others better than the mere rules require, but I realize that being a nice person is not something that many consider a central aspect of wikipedia, and I assume it is possible to be a reasonably good admin without being one. Whether to resign one's tools is everyone's own business. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Cheers Maunus, overlooking your own contentious behaviour when interacting with me, your analysis of me is close to my own. Hence the pledge to do better in this regard. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You will note that in the above I am quite candid about my own short comings as an editor and as an admin.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- As I said, this discussion should overlook your own behavioural issues. Thanks for the comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- As a piece of advice I would note that I have found resigning the tools to be a relief and while sometimes I wish I could make a deletion in preparation for a move I honestly don't really need them. I think you are probably, like me, a better content writer than administrator.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- As I said, this discussion should overlook your own behavioural issues. Thanks for the comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- You will note that in the above I am quite candid about my own short comings as an editor and as an admin.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- My thoughts - If you feel you're not being a good admin, resign the tools without prejudice and take a break. Dennis Brown did this earlier in the year and it seemed to be a good deal. Your boat race articles are still at GA standard as far as I know, and they are a good bit of work. If you don't resign under a cloud, you can get the tools back easily enough. Ritchie333 20:46, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, as mentioned above, there is a cloud here, that I was blocked by a fellow admin just a day or two ago for an alleged BLP violation. This is cloud territory. Moreover, it's not that I feel any of my "admin" tasks are beyond me or conducted poorly, just that I have been castigated far and wide for not being a "good" admin (seemingly for behaviour I exhibit outside the making of admin decisions). As for the Boat Race stuff, yes, as far as I know, I currently have 163 good articles (including two women's race articles) and 3 featured articles. More to come that way, but that's nothing really to do with this. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, that dark cloud is still very firmly parked over Kww Valley. But great that we can all enjoy this cathartic group airing session. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Mixed blessing It might be seen as under a cloud if it he resigned the bit now, Ritchie333, since he started the recall process (I handed mine in because I just had filed for divorce, so was distracted). That said, I will opine, in a way TRM will understand: I think you are a flaming pain in the ass. You are often too gruff, you can be dismissive of others, and often can be compared to a bull in a china shop. I disagree with you regularly, and I'm sure I piss you off frequently as well. That said, I've never seen or would expect you to abuse the tools and your demeanor when acting as admin is well within expectations. I am comfortable with you keeping the tools. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding the Kww block: he got a lot of serious pushback for it, including multiple editors and admins calling for an arb case. I think the institutional memory of it will follow him around for a long time even if there's no formal reprisal for the specific incident. And the underlying issue on your side was basically lame edit warring, a venial sin in the scheme of things if it doesn't happen too often. If you really want to wear the hairshirt over it, report yourself for 3RR and ask for an uninvolved admin to block you for 24h, after which you're good to go.
I've been more seriously annoyed by the friction you've gotten into at Refdesk/ITN/DYK and I urge you to tone it down if that's still going on (I don't keep tabs). At other times I've seen good analysis and judgment from you, enough that (maybe since I haven't looked at the problem areas too closely) I'd generally prefer that you stay on, maybe after taking a temporary break from adminning as others have said. I generally want to preserve what's possible of the remaining "Old Republic" DNA in the admin corps as a foil against the present-day bureaucracy even if it means occasional ludicrous incidents like the Antonio Martin thing. So I'd encourage you to self-reflect for a while on the areas where you've gotten in friction, and work out how to either avoid those areas or do better in them, while still maintaining reasonable standards in other areas. If you can do that, I'm satisfied. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- FWIW, I don't think a turning in of the tools is warranted. Some grumpiness and exasperation is not a prerequisite for this.Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I would urge you to continue to be an admin but to work harder to set a better example. Specifically be more civil, refrain from personal attacks, and try to communicate in a manner the de-escalates conflicts rather than drive off those seeking to communicate. Also, please don't edit war. We need admins and I would far rather you clean up your act than give up the bit. Chillum 22:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I in contrast urge you to resign as an admin. I will repost from the closed section above regarding you: "Pretty comfortable throwing his weight around at WP:ITN, where I have been watching him for years, as he drifts into borderline abuse repeatedly. I banned him from my Talk page just yesterday for posting what is a fine example of WP:BAIT: here is an admin coming to my page looking for a fight. In my long term observation, TRM is a bully who should desysopped." I repeat: came to my page looking for a fight, because I had previously questioned your posting an ITN item you had !voted on per WP:INVOLVED. No admin should use the snarky, hostile and combative rhetoric your position as admin allows you to get away with, which is a deeply ingrained habit. You abuse your power, and should give up the extra buttons. Jusdafax 00:15, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I concur. BMK (talk) 00:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment If you want to take a break from adminship but don't want to give up the bit under a potential cloud, just don't use any admin tools for awhile. Edit as if you don't have them. Once this incident blows over, you can decide to resign if you want and there won't be any question about whether you can re-admin just by asking a bureaucrat. 207.38.156.219 (talk) 00:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I personally think you should keep your Admin rights and spend more time editing and mopping WP:FOOTY related articled, especially Ipswich Town stuff. You are an asset to the project overall; yes you can loose your cool but I think 99% of the time it's justified. I have never seen you abuse your Admin tools, you just get very grumpy ;) JMHamo (talk) 00:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall. Lawd knows TRM and I do not often get along personally, and we often butt heads on many issues, but I have never once seen him misuse his admin tools. The measure of an admin should only be in how they use their tools. TRM has never misused them to my notion, and there's room in the big world of Misplaced Pages for a wide range of personalities and experiences on Misplaced Pages. We will never be friends, but I will defend his admin status to the ends of the earth. He's always been a model admin in terms of his measured, careful use of his tools. As a double endorsement of his worthiness, he recognizes his own shortcomings above, and a self-reflective, self-aware person who is willing to grow is exactly the kind of person we want as an admin. Again, I do not approve of much of his interpersonal approach in dealing with people he disagrees with. But he's never let that bleed into his admin work, and it would be a loss to the community for him to lose his tools. --Jayron32 02:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- also oppose recall Certainly I have been warned several times by TRM and also helped in situations by him. Over the course of many years feathers will get ruffled from time to time. But I can't think of any instances where he has abused his administrative authority. Maybe his fuse is a bit shorter from when he started but he acknowledged as much. It would be quite a shame not to have his experience in solving issues. If he really wants to step back, take a 30-60 day vacation from administrative chores. Stay an admin, don't resign the tools, but just do editing and nothing else. If you're feeling unappreciated, maybe that month would recharge the batteries. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Just a quick comment to follow up on what was said above — if you take a one-year sabbatical and request the tools back later, it won't be a problem. Your admin rights will have been removed for inactivity, which isn't considered under a cloud, and by definition it's several months separated from any conflicts you're in right now. Nyttend (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I could, but since my sysop tools include being able to edit the main page, I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now I'm pretty much dedicated to putting quality items at ITN and fixing ERRORS. I do block the odd vandal and protect the odd page, but that's in the minority. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- A desysop would be a bad idea; you're not indispensable, but you're much less dispensable than others, particularly at ITN, but also elsewhere. The reserved approach with the admin tools is admirable, as is the ability to crank out an amazing number of solid, quality articles while being an admin. I have found your willingness to jump immediately into full snark mode depressing sometimes; God knows I don't expect perfection, but I wish it happened less often than it does. I'd grudgingly support a too-grumpy TRM as an admin; I'd wholeheartedly endorse a less-grumpy TRM as one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment There's now an arbitration request open so I'd say file a statement and answer the case if needed. If the case is declined or if it closes without desysopping, I think that means there is not a cloud and it is ok to resign temporarily if that's what you want to do. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Please see my opening statement, I believe that I do not misuse the tools and would prefer to keep them. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm largely in agreement with most of the above. I don't think you should resign as an admin. You haven't misused the tools and we are short of admins in most areas, including the ones I generally see you in. That said, it definitely wouldn't hurt if you made a conscious effort to try and be less abrasive in your dealings with other editors. Jenks24 (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, I've noted that in my opening statement. The Rambling Man (talk)
- Abrasive and fighty to some and in certain areas, yes; trustworthy in terms of the tools, also yes. If you do genuinely make an effort to 'moderate "snippiness"', then I don't believe you should be (self-)recalled. In the future, if an issue do raise your temperature, try walking away for a bit. Reduce your stress level, and also better for the pedia. On a side note regarding any passing cloud, I would say any resignation now would be under a cloud, but not because of the recent block, but because of the open ArbCom case request where you are named as a party. -- KTC (talk) 22:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man, I voted for you for adminship over eight years ago and for bureaucratship over seven years ago. Do I regret those votes? No. Do I want you desysopped? No. Do I think that you need to make a few changes? Yes - because I think you're a good person, good editor and good admin, and I think the project would be worse off without you. If you feel as though you're been dragged into disputes of which you want no part, there is no shame in backing away from them. Some people above have noted that you can sometimes be hostile (I prefer "grumpy" as it's a less hostile word than the word "hostile"!) when dealing with people, especially with those who are causing you trouble; my answer to that is if you feel other editors are stressing you out, honestly, there is no shame - no shame at all - in someone with as much experience as yourself asking someone else for assistance. If nothing else, I certainly do recommend taking a break: it's amazing how taking a week or two (or a month) off refreshes one's enthusiasm for editing. Again, I continue to hold my long-standing positive impression of you and it is my preference that you remain as an admin; just take on board the advice that people have given you here and I think you'll be fine. Best. Acalamari 22:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Resign From what I've seen, The Rambling Man routinely violates our behavioural guidelines such as WP:CIVIL, WP:OWN, WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:INVOLVED but he shows restraint in his use of tools like blocking and deletion and so his bark is worse than his bite. I can cope as I'm quite thick-skinned but it seems likely that other editors would be provoked or driven off by this nastiness. As admins are supposed to show exemplary behaviour, he should please give the role a rest and try to find some more congenial corner of the project to work in. If the break is somewhat voluntary, he might reasonably return to admin duties at some future time. Andrew D. (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Resign. The Rambling Man drove me from contributing from WP:ITN/C, and partly drove me into my semi-retirement (I lost confidence in the admin system, I'd name a few other high up people I've lost confidence in too, but it's not the time for that) There are so many sections on AN/I's archives that contain the word TRM, I can't believe he still has tools, and that scares me. One of those AN/I sections is this, where I disastrously tried to get action taken against him. I don't understand why people here are blind to what I see. TRM has given far enough trouble. I can't really say when he's misused his admin tools, but only numerous abuse cases of his editing tools, and surely someone who abuses editing tools shouldn't be trusted with sysop tools. The community's handling of TRM's behavior is a reason that I think that Misplaced Pages doesn't have a bright future (and therefore discouraging me from contributing). This wiki-depresses me (seriously). --AmaryllisGardener 02:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Full disclosure; TRM and I are parties to the IBAN which TRM mentions in his opening statement as having been temporarily blocked for violating. (Baseball Bugs and I sought that IBAN when a dispute between TRM and myself at ITN ended up with TRM following me to other pages, especially the Reference Desks, where somehow BBB and I became conflated in his aggressive behaviour.) I'll speak here, given he has brought up the issue and invited comment. My opinion largely parallels the comments of Baseball Bugs and Jayron above. TRM has had some serious issues dealing civilly with other users as an editor himself. But I have never seen him once abuse his admin privileges.
- It is largely for this reason that I argued TRM should not remain blocked when he violated the terms of our IBAN last autumn. There has been a little bit of gamesmanship by him since (and there was a lot when the IBAN was first instituted the prior winter, diffs upon request), but I felt at the time that the permanent mark should be and was enough. Given I don't see diffs regarding this latest issue, I cannot comment on it. But the bottom line is that the "problem" with TRM is not as an admin but as a user.
- Had anyone asked me a year ago, my opinion would have been adamant that TRM should be desysopped. His behaviour is hostile enough in general that it is unbecoming an admin, and I cannot see that he would ever become an admin at this point were he not already grandfathered in. But that's a problem with adminship in general, not something that TRM has caused. My belief is that the admin system needs fixing, with term limits and a lottery giving some privileges to experienced users in good standing. Anything to break up the permanent old-boy's-club we have now, which I think drives away a lot of older and professional contributors with no desire to become wikilawyering experts.
- But frankly, the loss of TRM's admin work at ITN would be a huge blow. I would suggest that something like a plea-bargained deal be arranged. Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn.
- I see the point of those who call for TRM's resignation. I also see that while he's a frigging pain in the arse, he doesn't abuse his position other than by besmirching it with his unbecoming behaviour. I think something absolutely should be done, something or record here or at arbitration, and by decree if not voluntarily. But I think this thread is a good palm branch, TRM is a valuable contributor when he contributes, and we should keep the good of the project in mind above our own personal grievances.
- μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you Medeis, this is one of the most useful and pragmatic contributions: "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." That seems entirely reasonable, and if it's formally documented exactly what behaviour is disallowed then that would be easier to manage than endless ANI complaints.-- Aronzak (talk) 18:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Do not resign. I asked for anyone here showing me specific diffs showing abuse of tools. None were provided. Resignation or desysoping is the answer when you cannot be trusted with the tools. The answer when multiple editors tell you that you have been acting like a jerk is to stop acting like a jerk. It really is that simple. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Guy, it's not just about the tools – Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Administrator conduct (aside: this needs a shortcut – I'd suggest WP:ADMINCON or WP:ADMINCOND or something...) is an actual thing:
"However, sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator, and consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status. Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another."
This, and a recent statement at ArbCom, confirm that Admins can lose the bit for other than just straight "abuse of tools". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ADMINCOND is now a shortcut. BMK (talk) 03:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- @BMK: Danke! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Bitte. BMK (talk) 04:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- @IJBall: Thank you! --AmaryllisGardener 03:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Guy, it's not just about the tools – Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Administrator conduct (aside: this needs a shortcut – I'd suggest WP:ADMINCON or WP:ADMINCOND or something...) is an actual thing:
- My thanks to IJBall and to BMK for the pertinent shortcut. IJBall has said in different words, and citing the actual policy repeatedly violated by TRM, that I have tried to emphasize in my own statement here, and at the ArbCom case request. We also have a user stating they were driven away from ITN by the abusive comments TRM indulges in. Enough. TRM, you need to resign the tools at once. It's the decent thing to do. Jusdafax 05:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Seriously? "Sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages"? Evidence, please. Show me the diffs. All I have seen so far is some rudeness that, while undesirable, wouldn't get an ordinary editor blocked. Especially without being warned and given a chance to change his behavior. The words "triggerhappy" and "bloodthirsty" come to mind... --Guy Macon (talk) 05:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, the thing is, we aren't talking about "my" issues with TRM, so I can't provide much in the way of diffs (this is literally my only "semi-bad" interaction with TRM, and that didn't break my skin, though neither did I consider it "constructive"...). But neither am I going to ignore the comments of other editors here (especially in regards to the ITN section), nor can I ignore the numerous cases I've seen come through ANI about TRM. Again, it doesn't satisfy me that "an Admin hasn't abused the tools", as I expect more from an Admin than that. And creating enough of a "hostile environment" that it's a pervasive issue with a significant segment of the community is enough for me to see an Admin desysopped. I'm not saying that TRM is at the level – but if ArbCom is taking this case, I'd sure like them to look in to that, as well as Kww's block. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have no problem with either ANI or arbcom opening a case, examining the evidence, and desysoping TRM if that's where the evidence leads. In this thread I am basically asking for the same thing. My message to everyone here is this: either post diffs that you believe are evidence of either misuse of tools or sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages, or don't ask TRM to resign as administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall This got started because of Kww's misuse of the tools. The fact that TRM refused to do the same shows who can be trusted. MarnetteD|Talk 05:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall I've only skimmed the earlier ANI and comments here. It seems to me TRM didn't do anything particularly alarming or concerning besides argue with someone who appears to have been in the wrong. I also would like to see diffs - everyone (not that there are many) who has claimed TRM is disruptive, you should back up your claims with diffs! Show us what he's done! Otherwise I just have to assume it's something personal. —Мандичка 😜 06:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- There are numerous examples prior to this latest spat with Kww. For instance, see Inappropriate conduct by administrator User:The Rambling Man. Andrew D. (talk) 10:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall. I oppose recalling TRM because I have never seem him abuse his admin powers, nor do I see evidence of him doing so here. Like all of us, he is not a perfect human being or Wikipedian and he admits the things he needs to work on and from what I know I believe he is doing so. I don't expect any editor or admin to act perfectly all the time. In the past we have had strong disagreements (which I likely am part responsible for) but they had nothing to do with his admin powers. I don't think they need to be removed. 331dot (talk) 12:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- @331dot: you stated "Your sarcasm toward other, especially new users, hardly helps improve Misplaced Pages." (this was linked in a previous ANI issue raising conduct complaints) - given that this is what people have an issue with, can you comment on Medeis's suggestion "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." -- Aronzak (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Aronzak: From what I have seen since I made that comment, I think he has been trying to get better. Maybe he hasn't always been successful but what matters is that he seems to recognize that he needs to continue to improve. If he thinks such a voluntary restriction would help him improve, he should do it, but that is up to him. If done, I think a time limit on it would be reasonable, such as six months or a year. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- @331dot: you stated "Your sarcasm toward other, especially new users, hardly helps improve Misplaced Pages." (this was linked in a previous ANI issue raising conduct complaints) - given that this is what people have an issue with, can you comment on Medeis's suggestion "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." -- Aronzak (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- All, how would this voluntary restriction work? I am being accused of being a piss-poor communicator and a grumpy old sod (which I've accepted in my opening statement), yet my admin actions are not being scrutinised in any way. I don't see how not fixing main page errors, not posting ready items to ITN, not tweaking TFA and TFL and TFP blurbs would help here? According to the "stats" I have made 60 admin actions over the past year which are logged as such, i.e. in deletes, protects and blocks. Not one of those has been brought into question. I could work sans bit for months, but it would just mean that ERRORS, TFL, ITN, DYK, TFA and TFP would have unaddressed issues for longer than necessary. Is that it? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Can you just fix stuff without being so sarky? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Martin, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, your subtle comments are way beyond most of the readers here. They confuse a lot of people around here. Please restrict them to my talk page or other, more appropriate venues. And in the meantime, no, I'm not being sar'carstic in any way. Although I did spend some time with Neil Wheedon Watkins Pye's dad, about twenty years ago... I will try to fix things. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, just readers round 'ere. That's a relief. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Who has a sideboard these days?! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Don't threaten me with Cribbins, mate! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Who has a sideboard these days?! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, just readers round 'ere. That's a relief. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- The Rambling Man, one way is to limit where you participate, to limit the reasons to get grumpy. IE: Work at ITN but not at DYK. I quit doing any DYK work and removed all DYK pips from my user page, in part from your work there. My opinion is that you are overly rigid in your interpretation of the standards (as are a couple others), and it puts off off new editors. To me, that is an editor retention concern, and if given the chance, would vote to simply remove DYK as a liability. l quit and unwatched all pages because I have better things to fight over. I actively discourage new editors from participating at DYK. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks Dennis Brown. I restrict my edits at DYK now to simply copyediting every item that gets thrust into the preps and queues. Incidentally, new editors are more likely to be dissuaded by the arcane use of templates, QPQ process, transcluding, vetting, prepping and queueing than a more stringent adherence to writing in grammatically correct and encyclopedically toned English. But that is just my opinion. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Martin, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, your subtle comments are way beyond most of the readers here. They confuse a lot of people around here. Please restrict them to my talk page or other, more appropriate venues. And in the meantime, no, I'm not being sar'carstic in any way. Although I did spend some time with Neil Wheedon Watkins Pye's dad, about twenty years ago... I will try to fix things. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Can you just fix stuff without being so sarky? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about which "voluntary restriction" you're talking about, but if you get your civility issues resolved, then this whole series of AN/I threads can have a good ending. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that would be a better ending than a desysoping. Regards, --AmaryllisGardener 18:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, a number of people commenting have suggested I temporarily resign or refrain from using my admin rights, as a voluntary restriction imposed upon myself. My point above was that I generally "use" my admin rights to update the main page, ITN, DYK, ERRORS, etc etc, and don't usually use them to do anything else. I don't believe anyone has suggested my updates to the main page, or fixes from ERRORS has been mishandled. And yes, I've already committed to making a concerted effort to improve the indicated communication issues, that formed part of my opening statement in this very thread. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- A number of people commenting have suggested that you temporarily resign or refrain from using your admin rights while refusing to provide a single diff that shows a good reason why you should do that. Yes, you have been uncivil. Not enough to support even a 1-day block, but it is there. The solution to that is to talk it over with your colleagues (which you have done) and try to tone it down (which you have said you will do). Nothing else is required. We need you and we need your tools. Nobody else would have tried to address the PC2 issue on the PCI page. There is a case where your having the tools was invaluable (all I could have done is complained and gotten stonewalled). The only thing I would have changed is having you discuss controversial actions like that before doing them, (even if they shouldn't be controversial) but as far as what you did you did the right thing. And have you noticed the current protection level on that particular page? You have not misused the tools you have not engaged in sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages. You should not resign. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I personally haven't seen anything worthy of resigning the toolset permanently. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall. You're a fantastic Wikipedian, who has contributed so much. Allow me to elaborate:
- I think you've been a bit worn down by things in the last while, particularly, if I may suggest, by a perception that some Wikipedians tolerate (maintain, even fight for) low standards in various nooks and crannies of the pedia. I don't know whether imposing some kind of artificial restraints on yourself will help, I suspect not, but I do know that throwing aside the tools will not help you or Misplaced Pages.
- Instead, I'll refer you back to User:Dweller/Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values, which you were the second person to sign up to. While any of us can fall short of the optimal standards of behaviour, we are after all, human, it's good to aspire to them.
- This has been a courageous (if bonkers) thing to do, but I commend you on your self-analysis and look forward to seeing the shiny old TRM re-emerging - to be honest, the c.2007 version of TRM was pretty much the model for the Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values. --Dweller (talk) 09:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- There probably has been grumpiness and there have certainly been some comments that have been perceived as incivil, yet no-one is seriously suggesting misuse of the tools. Taking a break from tool use isn't the answer here, but it might be an idea to refocus for while on an area where you are less likely to get into disagreements. If we can get someone to refresh the report, I would suggest you spend some time doing a trawl of Misplaced Pages:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege. No need to say anything to the editors on that list who don't yet merit the Autopatrol flag, but there are lots of overlooked uncontentious editors out there and it is difficult to be grumpy when you find them, set them as Autopatroller and say hi on their talkpage. You might even find a few who would be interested in DYK etc if they but knew of them. ϢereSpielChequers 10:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose recall. While I haven't interacted with TRM much, it looks like he hasn't abused his admin tools at all, and that the only problems with him are as an editor. Also, TRM's work at WP:ITN is appreciated. Epic Genius (talk) 12:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- None of your actions would make me think you are a bad admin. Your willing to work with the community and the recent issues should no use of admin tools only editorial judgement.Blethering Scot 22:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I move that someone uninvolved close this with an appropriate summary. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Edit Warring Natg 19
Natg 19 has ignored wikipedias threevert rule and is edit warring among pages of players drafted in the 2015 NVA Draft. Among the pages are Larry Nance Jr. and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson. Although it has been pointed out these players are not signed he continues to add them to their current teams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toeknee44 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Is there any reason not to file a report on this at WP:ANEW then? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall, can you remember being a new user? I can. I actually still remember the time, ten years ago, that I first reported a problem to a noticeboard (there was a bewildering variety of them even then, though not so many as now), with much effort and doubt, and somebody spoke to me just the way you did there, and how disconcerted I was. The way to reply to good faith reports is to thank the user for their assistance. Then, if you must, you can point them to a different noticeboard for next time. Thank you for reporting the problem, User:Toeknee44, please consider using WP:ANEW next time you need to report edit warring. I was going to take a look at your complaint, but realized that my understanding of... what sport is it? Oh, basketball. OK, my understanding of professional basketball is unfortunately so tiny that I hesitate to review your complaint. I hope another, more clued-in, admin will do so soon. Bishonen | talk 17:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC).
FTR, that wasn't intended to be "snarky", and I apologize if it came off that way. It was more an attempt to point Toeknee44 to the correct noticeboard.I apologize Toeknee44 for being curt. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:14, 27 June 2015 (UTC)- Also, I just checked and it doesn't look like Natg 19 has crossed 3RR – there was an addition, and 1 revert at Larry Nance Jr., and just the one addition at Rondae Hollis-Jefferson. (In fact, I see some later self-reverts from Natg 19 on this issue...) So it looks like Natg 19 got the "message" in time before crossing any "redlines". I suggest that this one can probably be closed. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:23, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall, can you remember being a new user? I can. I actually still remember the time, ten years ago, that I first reported a problem to a noticeboard (there was a bewildering variety of them even then, though not so many as now), with much effort and doubt, and somebody spoke to me just the way you did there, and how disconcerted I was. The way to reply to good faith reports is to thank the user for their assistance. Then, if you must, you can point them to a different noticeboard for next time. Thank you for reporting the problem, User:Toeknee44, please consider using WP:ANEW next time you need to report edit warring. I was going to take a look at your complaint, but realized that my understanding of... what sport is it? Oh, basketball. OK, my understanding of professional basketball is unfortunately so tiny that I hesitate to review your complaint. I hope another, more clued-in, admin will do so soon. Bishonen | talk 17:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC).
Editor: "Helpsome"
I am new to Misplaced Pages and was treated very rudely by "Helpsome" last month. S/he called me a liar and was generally abusive.
I suggest the following: 1) S/he be reprimanded and given some general guidelines on civility. 2) S/he be given retraining on actually reading what s/he was deleting before s/he deletes it. (The entry on one of the articles I added material to is now messed up due to his/her editing without looking -- it has entries in the Reference section with nothing being referred to). 3) I request to be allowed to enter material as long as I do not "self-promote" without being abused.
Thank you.
W. Paul Marshall
("wpaul1972")
- I've moved the required user notification to Helpsome's talk page from the title of this section. Sam Walton (talk) 18:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Here Wpaul1972 (talk · contribs) is the link to make it easier to read this editors relevant pages. It looks like the article in question is Nagarjuna (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and the ensuing discussion at User talk:Helpsome/Archive 3#Nagarjuna MarnetteD|Talk 19:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like this may be helpful: Shankara1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as effectively Helpsome seems to be suggesting that Wpaul1972 is a sock of Shankara1000. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Helpsome did not edit since 19 June 2015, he may not be able to comment on this complaint. JimRenge (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- These are the edits that appear to be in question: (and by Shakira1000). However, I must note to Wpaul1972 that this revert did not remove the improvements you made here, merely, he removed the information for Jones Richard. That seems odd. I would like @Helpsome: to explain this focus, however noting the above. -- Orduin 21:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Helpsome did not edit since 19 June 2015, he may not be able to comment on this complaint. JimRenge (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like this may be helpful: Shankara1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as effectively Helpsome seems to be suggesting that Wpaul1972 is a sock of Shankara1000. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Here Wpaul1972 (talk · contribs) is the link to make it easier to read this editors relevant pages. It looks like the article in question is Nagarjuna (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and the ensuing discussion at User talk:Helpsome/Archive 3#Nagarjuna MarnetteD|Talk 19:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Again, I am not Richard Jones or any of the other scholars I try to add. I do not know him. I did once speak to Lex Hixon after one of his talks, but he is dead. I don't understand the reference to Shankara 1000 -- if Helpsome is suggesting I also use that name I never have. Paul (wpaul 1972) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wpaul1972 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Wpaul1972 (talk) 18:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)wpaul1972
- @Wpaul1972: Please sign your comments using 4 tildes (i.e. ~~~~). The system with automatically sign and date your comment. Thanks. BMK (talk) 21:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC).
- I am not sure what happens next. Wpaul1972 (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Repeated copyvio creation
Ali_qahremani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
In the past few hours, Ali qahremani has done nothing but create articles which plagiarize different sources, under titles that are only related to the article topic, in may cases topics that should be covered by existing articles. User does not respond to any messages, even when a non-template one was sent. Conservation may not be the best option. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I blocked and asked for feedback.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- In some cases, this is slightly more complicated than it appears at first blush. In some of these articles there is an indicator of the copyright problem but the duplication detector report shows no overlap. While not having confirmed this my guess is that the copied material comes from the text of the article as opposed to the abstract. In one case Oncogene virus I'm puzzled, as the attempted an article is clearly a copy of the abstract, yet the duplication detector report shows no overlap. I haven't fully investigated why but this puzzles me. However because the editor manages to include the copyright notice in the article, and in at least one case there is substantial overlap, it makes sense to stop this editor and make sure they engage in discussion.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Eyeballing it confirms the copyvio (or at least enough of a copyvio), I'd have to guess that something's gone wrong with the copyvio detection software(s). Ian.thomson (talk) 20:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Earwig's copy vio detector shows a 99.4 % overlap. It's actually the better tool, and I use it almost exclusively. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The new batch of articles he has created seems almost exclusively machine translations from the equivalent Persian Misplaced Pages articles. Per WP:MACHINETRANSLATION, these really ought to be deleted. They also have no valid sources.--Anders Feder (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Tokyogirl79 has already raised the possibility of puppetry between Ali_qahremani (contribs | filter log) and Ehsanghandchi1375 (contribs | filter log). I want to add Mahdi moallemi (contribs | filter log) to that list.--Anders Feder (talk) 21:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Original research
Per this previous discussion, User:Medgirl131 has been notified that changing and creating new navboxes with the suffixes "oidics" or "ergics" is in many cases original research and confuses readers because these terms do not exist in the scientific literature. Despite these cautions communicated both through talk pages (diff) and private e-mail (withheld for obvious reasons), Medgirl131 continues to create new navboxes such as {{Prostanoidergics}} that until this navbox was created, the term Prostanoidergics was completely unknown. Compounding the problem is that Medgirl131 refuses to gain consensus on the appropriate talk pages such as Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Pharmacology before these edits. It is Medgirl131 right not to communicate on talk pages. However if Medgirl131 wishes to add controversial navboxes to a large number of articles, IMHO Medgirl131 should be required to obtain consensus at the appropriate project talk page before making these edits. I am sympathetic to Medgirl131 privacy concerns and I am willing act as a mediator via private e-mail to to determine if there is community consensus for these proposed edits. Boghog (talk) 21:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I am sympathetic also. We have a lot of people making up new terms for Misplaced Pages and we try to curb this. This user contributes good content to Misplaced Pages. I expect that this person knows the rules, knows how to engage in discussion, knows why this notice is being posted here, and can anticipate the likely outcome of coining new terms without providing justification. I would comment on any proposal justifying these names. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Deception, impersonation, sock puppetry, vandalism, topic ban, block, and scrutiny evasion
I apologize for the long post, but I feel it is necessary for the reader to get a full sense of the entire picture. A TL;DR summary is at the end for convenience.
AnulBanul (talk · contribs) is an account that demonstrably belongs to user Wüstenfuchs (talk · contribs) a fact that runs counter to his blatant lie that he has "no connection to the said user whatsoever". The user, in spite of his "Armenian who lived in Serbia" persona , has never once edited the Armenian Misplaced Pages (hy.wikipedia.org) or Serbian Misplaced Pages (sr.wikipedia.org). Note that Wüstenfuchs joined WikiProject Armenia and that later AnulBanul joined WikiProject Armenia as editing from Georgia then Russia . He then began building his persona changing his intitial name from Anulmanul to Anna Sahakyan , then Anushka , then Yerevani Axjik , and then to his current name AnulBanul. He then uploaded a selfie image to presumably impersonate a person named Anna Sahakyan from Yerevan that he took off a Facebook profile or VK (Russian social networking website). He proceeded to use that image on his userpage and refer to himself as "Anna" and created a backstory for the said individual. Numerous FB and VK profiles exist under that name, but I won't link any for their privacy.
Note that AnulBanul instead edits the Croatian Misplaced Pages which when he does concerns right-wing and far-right Croatian politicians and parties. which is quite odd when the user labels himself a liberal from the University of Belgrade. Indeed it's hard to believe it's anyone other than him when he does such obscure and specific edits such as (among the litany of other identical ones shown below). Note that the Wüstenfuchs account became inactive on 20 September 2014, two days later the AnulBanul account became active on 22 September 2014. The last edit of Wüstenfuchs (Bilal Bosnić, ISIL recruiter) and first edit of AnulBanul (Military intervention against ISIL) are both related to Islamic extremism. Further note that Wüstenfuchs' Mostar IP was blocked for block evading in order to edit war. That same IP (93.180.104.124 (talk · contribs)) edited three articles, all of which were created by Wüstenfuchs and all of which were later edited by AnulBanul/Wüstenfuchs with the same POV: Avdo Humo (IP: , AnulBanul: ), Hasan Brkić (IP: , Wüstenfuchs ), and Osman Karabegović (IP: , Wüstenfuchs: )
On 26 May AnulBanul was topic banned from anything related to Bosnia and Herzegovina for 3 months Immediately the day after he proceeded to vandalize a Bosnia and Herzegovina related userbox in order to troll. A week later he violated his topic ban via IPs 185.38.146.201 (talk · contribs) and 93.180.126.249 (talk · contribs) both Mostar IPs. Both have the same exact lines and POV on obscure articles with one of them being pushed against Dragodol, his edit warring buddy that was also topic banned, in the Nijaz Duraković article and in the Jovan Divjak article the same exact line of unsourced nonsense that he was a "show general". Note that the 93.180.126.249 Mostar IP's contributions on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He picks up where Wustenfuchs and AnulBanul left off on the Croatian Party of Rights of Bosnia and Herzegovina article and on the Croatian Democratic Union 1990 article where his Herr Ziffer (blocked) and Wustenfuchs accounts formerly edited and on the Croatian Party of Rights (Bosnia and Herzegovina) article where Wustenfuchs formerly edited. Another IP (blocked) that edited all those same articles in the same manner also created the Nijaz Duraković article on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He later admitted that those were indeed his IPs however those were not the only topic ban evading IPs. Other discovered evading IPs that AnulBanul did not disclose include 85.94.128.192 (talk · contribs), 46.35.153.151 (talk · contribs), and 46.35.131.167 (talk · contribs) and there are more than likely many others out there. The story does not stop with using IPs to just topic ban evade as he has also used them to vandalize, commit BLP violations, edit war and circumvent 3RR, etc and the AnulBanul account is not the only sockpuppet he has and has used the K. Solin (talk · contribs) and RossaLuxx (talk · contribs) accounts to split his edits, evade scrutiny, and have sleeper accounts. There may be many more such accounts out there.
Evidence that ties the accounts together:
AnulBanul |
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|
K. Solin |
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|
Herr Ziffer |
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|
Note almost all of his discovered accounts have been indef blocked on various Wikis for tendentious editing and sockpuppetry:
- Wüstenfuchs (hr)
- AnulBanul (hr)
- Herr Ziffer (bs, hr)
- Wustefuchs (bs, commons)
- Wustenfuchs (bs, commons)
- K. Solin (hr)
- RossaLuxx
- Ayohayem
As shown above the user shows a propensity to evade scrutiny throughout Wikis by constant logged out IP hopping, fragmenting edit history among new accounts, and making sleeper accounts. In addition to this he has also:
- Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul in order to commit sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, and libel by referring to a man as a "shithead" ("govnar") in Serbo-Croatian and pretending it's his surname
- Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul to immaturely troll on the Valentin Inzko article and has even vandalised a "on this day" template he personally dislikes while logged in
- Used Mostar IPs to help initiate and facilitate edit wars, avoid 3RR, and then report the other user
- Canton 10: , , ,
- Herzegovina-Neretva Canton:
- Used Mostar IPs to delete sourced information and/or push POV
His Wustefuchs and Wustenfuchs accounts were both blocked on commons "unfree files after warnings" and abuse of multiple accounts. Despite this he has evaded his block via sockpuppets and continued to purposefully upload copyrighted material under false CC licenses with his Herr Ziffer, AnulBanul, and K: Solin handles as the authors.
- Uploading as AnulBanul an image crop of a file uploaded by Herr Ziffer which was removed for copyright violation
- Uploading as K. Solin an image crop of a file uploaded by AnulBanul which was removed for copyright violation
TL;DR:
In summary his activity on Misplaced Pages involves:
- The absolute denial of any connection to his sockpuppet AnulBanul account and creation and non-disclosure of any other sockpuppet and sleeper accounts (K. Solin, RosaLuxx, etc)
- The impersonation of an Armenian female individual named Anna Sahakyan from Yerevan to appear more neutral, completely unrelated to past edits/accounts, and assume her identity (even going so far as to upload her selfie image) in order to deceive other users
- The constant splitting of his past edit history through new accounts and IP hopping to game the system, sockpuppeteer, deceive users, vandalize, commit BLP violations, circumvent 3RR, and avoid scrutiny
- The forging of a clean slate that is without previous ARBMAC warnings and blocks to appear in good standing and receive more leeway around admins
- The willingness to repeatedly avoid blocks and topic bans if he was sure he wouldn't be caught
--Potočnik (talk) 03:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have not once edited with any of those accounts at the English Misplaced Pages, except Wustenfuchs, and I have the right to do so, I can switch to another account for several personal reasons. This was in order to protect my privacy and to protect myself from vandal attacks and other attacks after I edited several pages related to the Syrian civil war back in 2012. It is not my fault that Wikimedia creates accounts on all wikis if you create an account on a Croatian one. Those accounts remained inactive and will remain so. I was blocked for using IPs on your report, and my block ended today. Moreover, I said those were my IPs. Another thing, you will respect my gender identity. I'm not "he". --AnulBanul (talk) 03:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Good to know you that finally admit to the fact that Wüstenfuchs is indeed your account after claiming that you had "no connection to the said user whatsoever" and again admit to editing from Mostar and not Armenia, Serbia, Georgia, or Russia as you wished to purposely mislead others into believing.
- The valid reasons for multiple accounts are listed here. None of them state that doing what you claim to have done it for is valid. In any event all the edits of the K. Solin, Herr Ziffer, RossaLux accounts were in 2014 and so have nothing to do with some 2012 harassment.
- Nonsense those accounts have edits on English Misplaced Pages and correspond with your POV as demonstrated by a litany of diffs. Accounts are automatically made when you visit Misplaced Pages in another language (that's understandable), but you not only did this and edited on the English Misplaced Pages. You edited the Milan Gorkić page on 27 November 2014 as AnulBanul with HHVM (note tag in summary) and then three days later as K. Solin on 30 November 2014 with HHVM Adding content as AnulBanul and picking up where you left off as K. Solin with references you had previously added as Wüstenfuchs. But I suppose that the brand new account adding info in your POV in an obscure article that you created with the same 1984 Croatian work you used is not you?
- In my past correspondences to you as Wüstenfuchs I referred to you in male pronouns (Misplaced Pages is overwhelmingly male) and you never raised this issue, and up until this point the same with your AnulBanul account. I have a hard time believing that you're a female... or that your name is actually Anna, or that you are Armenian, or that you studied at the University of Belgrade, or that you were born and lived in Yerevan, or that that is your selfie image. More likely you are impersonating some poor girl using her name, photo, and location to deceive users. --Potočnik (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is clearly my name is not Anna, as I said, I used this previous account. You can proceede with sock puppet investigation, if you wish. I'll admit I used K. Solin as my account. But had no intention of hiding my edit history. If that's wrongful, I'll suffer the consequences. --AnulBanul (talk) 08:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Don't be shocked if others don't jump in on this, very much TLDR. Let me clear up a couple of things here and allow you to restate the things that really matter: First, whatever happens at Commons or other Wikis, we don't really care so much here. We have no authority there, the rules are different on different wikis, so our focus is really on activity HERE, under most circumstances. Having the account does't matter, only what you do with it matters.
- Next, ANI is the wrong venue for a sockpuppet investigation, and in fact, it is the worst possible venue because it doesn't generate all the autolinks for investigating and ANI isn't a formal board like SPI. Regardless it is here, but you've made it more difficult to investigate.
- What really matters most is overlapping edits on the same article, etc. Secondarily, a clear showing of avoiding scrutiny. If they are avoiding an Arb warning, you can typically just add that Arb warning to their page and be done with it. If they are using multiple accounts for reasons under WP:SOCK that are acceptable, then they aren't sanctionable. It isn't clear because you have focused on quantity rather than simple linkage here. Can you please narrow it down to what really matters. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 06:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I mentioned commons and the other Wikipedias to demonstrate that the behavior isn't restricted to a single language or part of Misplaced Pages and to show what he has a propensity for doing. I didn't dwell on it much. A sockpuppet investigation shouldn't be necessary in the first place as users who do have multiple accounts are supposed to have them "fully and openly disclosed" and not create personas for them, deny any connection to them, and keep them hidden. But if you insist then I'll post the matter there also. None of the valid reasons for using multiple accounts is applicable here. As shown above he has been "avoiding scrutiny" by "using alternative accounts that are not fully and openly disclosed to split your editing history means that other editors may not be able to detect patterns in your contributions. (...) it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions" (AnulBanul, K. Solin) and "editing logged out to mislead" by "editing under multiple IP addresses may be treated the same as editing under multiple accounts where it is done deceptively or otherwise violates the principles of this policy." (edit war and avoid 3RR, delete sourced info, POV push, sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, troll) --Potočnik (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- The point is, you muddy the waters when you add all that extra stuff. Show links to articles where he edited first as an editor, then as another editor or IP. Those are facts, all the other stuff just makes it too long to read and determine. Sockpuppet investigating is about dry facts, no opinions. Honestly, WP:SPI is where it needs to go, as you are claiming four accounts, and there is the need for a formal board where random input from other editors isn't an issue. They key is getting it right, not getting it fast or in the ANI crowd. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I mentioned commons and the other Wikipedias to demonstrate that the behavior isn't restricted to a single language or part of Misplaced Pages and to show what he has a propensity for doing. I didn't dwell on it much. A sockpuppet investigation shouldn't be necessary in the first place as users who do have multiple accounts are supposed to have them "fully and openly disclosed" and not create personas for them, deny any connection to them, and keep them hidden. But if you insist then I'll post the matter there also. None of the valid reasons for using multiple accounts is applicable here. As shown above he has been "avoiding scrutiny" by "using alternative accounts that are not fully and openly disclosed to split your editing history means that other editors may not be able to detect patterns in your contributions. (...) it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions" (AnulBanul, K. Solin) and "editing logged out to mislead" by "editing under multiple IP addresses may be treated the same as editing under multiple accounts where it is done deceptively or otherwise violates the principles of this policy." (edit war and avoid 3RR, delete sourced info, POV push, sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, troll) --Potočnik (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have violated my topic ban, and was blocked for ten days - that is, until today. --AnulBanul (talk) 08:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree this goes beyond sockpuppet as it seems to be all about long-term gaming the system and may need to go to arbitration. Even if it's tl;dr, I read and it's good detective work. The whole back story doesn't matter (there's no problem to invent an identity, outside of taking someone else's photo) except it's very easy to prove untrue and thus provides no plausible alternative as to another identity. Additionally, someone who goes to extravagant lengths to edit here is not likely to be dissuaded by the usual sock blocks. AnulBanul, if you are an Armenian (or Russian-Armenian, by your name Anushka) would you prefer to discuss this situation in Armenian or Russian? You only edited one article on the Russian Misplaced Pages and I can't understand it - in the infobox, you changed the link to Split (town) to Split (the disambiguation)... a bit odd. —Мандичка 😜 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I already explained myself. See my other post. --AnulBanul (talk) 08:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry AnulBanul, which post is that? This one? —Мандичка 😜 11:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. The one where I said, that I created additional account in order to distance myself from possible vandalisms made on my old Wustenfuchs account, after editing Syrian civil war topic. --AnulBanul (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- What vandalism against Wüstenfuchs? Your account was already blocked! You made AnulBanul in September 2014, right after Wüstenfuchs was finally blocked on the Croatian Wiki. (Btw, Wüstenfuchs was blocked for two-years after 19 PREVIOUS blocks on the Croatian Wiki. Wüstenfuchs was also blocked eight times on the English Wiki.) Then you made K. Solin in November 2014. So you didn't just make one additional account, you made at least two.... all to "protect yourself" from retribution against edits you made two years earlier? —Мандичка 😜 14:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Keep picking and it all falls apart. First he claimed he had "no connection whatsoever" to the Wüstenfuchs account and that it wasn't his, then claimed all accounts but the Wüstenfuchs account weren't his, and then claimed all but the Wüstenfuchs and K. Solin accounts weren't his. Note he's deleted his AnulBanul userpage likely to make evidentiary diffs of his user page null and to make the RossaLuxx claim unverifiable. --Potočnik (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- What vandalism against Wüstenfuchs? Your account was already blocked! You made AnulBanul in September 2014, right after Wüstenfuchs was finally blocked on the Croatian Wiki. (Btw, Wüstenfuchs was blocked for two-years after 19 PREVIOUS blocks on the Croatian Wiki. Wüstenfuchs was also blocked eight times on the English Wiki.) Then you made K. Solin in November 2014. So you didn't just make one additional account, you made at least two.... all to "protect yourself" from retribution against edits you made two years earlier? —Мандичка 😜 14:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. The one where I said, that I created additional account in order to distance myself from possible vandalisms made on my old Wustenfuchs account, after editing Syrian civil war topic. --AnulBanul (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal to take this to arbitration.I have been trying to go through all this information across the various wikis and admin reports, admissions of using multiple accounts without disclosure, admissions of ban evasion, admissions of violating topic bans, etc. I don't think ANI or SPI is the right place for either as the response will be "tl;dr" which is benefiting AnulBanul, as is the "different wikis have different policies" reasoning. He created the AnulBanul account after being given a two-year ban on the Croatian Misplaced Pages, in order to evade the ban (behavior not allowed on any Misplaced Pages) and AnulBanul was indeffed on the Croatian Wiki after being caught. As AnulBanul's favorite topics are areas under oversight, I think it needs to be taken to arbitration. Taking a random person's someone's photo off the Internet and uploading it to Commons as a "self-portrait" in order to use it on the a Misplaced Pages userpage to disguise oneself (sorry, this is not you ) is a significant violation of the rules, and should be investigated. —Мандичка 😜 12:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)- You don't propose to take it to Arb, you either take it there or you don't. Please note that if you haven't even filed an SPI so a formal investigation can be done (and likely completely deal with since they can deal with anything, even behavior, and use Checkuser) then it will surely get thrown out. Arb is the final step after everything else has failed, not the first. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- See my comment to Мандичка above. SPI is unnecessary and the evidence against the other two accounts are just as definitive. --Potočnik (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK struck out the proposal part. But my intention was to ask the people more familiar if they would like to take it to Arbitration. I just became aware of this situation, but it seems to me that the usual check user/ANI is not being effective in this case and are only of slight inconvenience to this editor. There are not enough people interested in taking the time to wade through this information on ANI. There is considerable, very aggressive gaming the system to avoid blocks and topic bans on multiple wikis, going back to at least 2008, all in order to make disruptive posts, and IMO there needs to be some kind of global checkuser to see the full extent. I've never created an Arb case so I don't know how to proceed. —Мандичка 😜 19:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- See my comment to Мандичка above. SPI is unnecessary and the evidence against the other two accounts are just as definitive. --Potočnik (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, this is certainly cut-and-dried. The report is a bit TLDR, but its pretty blatant when you take a look. Uh.. will someone step in? -- Director (talk) 09:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Terre Haute Indiana IP vandal - Muppets vandalism continued
IP blocked by Dianna and all pages protected by Kudpung. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hiya, this is a continuation of this closed ANI report. Basically, a vandal who uses IPs geolocating to Terre Haute, Indiana, US and other Indiana cities is on a long-term campaign to disrupt articles related to the beloved Muppets. Kudpung was kind enough to protect a number of articles, but the user is back at a different IP (50.104.196.249 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) messing with the articles that were not protected. Kudpung didn't see egregious vandalism from this IP, but my argument was that the IP should be blocked per WP:REVERTBAN since they have been vandalizing Muppets-related articles for quite some time and are de facto not welcome here.
- This report demonstrates some, but not all, of the scope of the problem. I only started noting geolocations in my edit summaries late last year or so. Their disruptions are not limited to Muppets stuff, but they are focused on that subject.
- Though I know that blocks aren't punitive, the vandal continues to avoid virtually every standard we have for discussion, sourcing, etc. They have never discussed anything as far as I know, they never submit references, and there's no presumption that anything that comes out of these socks should be considered correct. It's just a distraction.
- Here, for instance, they keep submitting the same giant list of pointless Muppet cameos in spite of a number of other editors rejecting the content. Other examples of that same edit here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here. That's a combination of POV/ownership/edit-warring/ignoring what the community wants and is absolutely disruptive. The persistent unsourced date changes are no better. Even if they hop IPs, they should be held to a basic standard, which they have never achieved. Thus, de facto banned. If you're still not convinced that this is the same person, please note the reported IP's unexplained removal of content here at Steve Whitmire (the puppeteer behind Kermit the Frog) and then some of the other removals here, here, here, here and you can probably continue the pattern.
So basically I'd like to get some clearance to treat this as a REVERTBAN/RBI situation so I can ask admins block the IPs on sight. It would also be nice to get some additional page protections on the articles that were most recently vandalized by 50.104.196.249. Thanks, and don't forget to change your mop water. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Note that this is a continuation of an even earlier ANI report, and in that one the IP was originally using a 50.104.200.xx address – is there anyway we can get some kind of rangeblock on 50.104.xx.xx here? Or will that cover too much territory for a rangeblock?... In any case, I support whatever it takes to stop this IP vandal once and for all... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:37, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks for that ANI link, IJBall! They have also edited from 172.78.xx.xx range and 50.106.xx.xx. They tend to edit from Frontier Communications IPs. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Update: Diannaa blocked the IP above for 36 hours. That's all well and good, but I'm with Cyphoidbomb that this is a more persistent problem, and I really think we may need to look at a rangeblock here (if it can't be done, it can't be done, but I'd at least like the possibility investigated...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's an opportunity for a range block at Range 50.104.192.0/19 (covers 8192 IP addresses). I have gone ahead and done that (blocked for 3 months).
- 172.78.98.129 is from a different range, and is currently blocked for 3 months. You say there's been other edits from this range, but a range block cannot be calculated from only one IP. We need at least two, and preferably more.
- 50.121.7.53 is from a different range, is not currently blocked, and was last used on June 24.
- 50.195.250.46 is from a different range, was last used in April, and is not currently blocked.
- I suggest you prepare a WP:LTA case file for this user. A combination of range blocks and article protection has been used effectively in the past. You can expect to get quick action on your posts at AIV if you have an LTA case page already in place. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Owning issue with another editor, Part 2
- Moved from WP:AN ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
In followup to this report, Gabrielkat has continued their owning on The Bold and the Beautiful and continues to revert my edits, has made ZERO attempt to discuss this issue with me properly and per Adjwilley I am to notify of this issue happening once more. This user is clearly interested in being the only editor to update the episode count, and is unwilling to co-edit, which shows severe signs of owning the page. User returned to reverting my edit (see here) to only replace it seconds later with their own (see here). I am requesting that this editor be held responsible for their irresponsible editing patterns. User was issued a notice by Adjwilley about this issue, and they chose to neither respond nor attempt to resolve the matter; instead, they're choosing to continue their editing behaviors. In turn, user also uses the same exact edit summary as I use, therefore it's even more suspect that they are editing this way to bait a potential edit-war out of this situation. They are clearly not here to edit cohesively in a community forum. User previously also admitted that they want to update the episode count by stating "Let me update the weekly episode count" as I noted in my previous filing, which shows they are still exhibiting the same pattern of behavior. And upon adding the AN-notice on their page, it was immediately removed, which shows they are not interested in acting in a civil manner with other editors. User is now attempting to do all soaps (see here), which is fine, but their edit to General Hospital is in violation of the consensus at the soap project, which states that it must be done once an episode has completed airing. I see this as an attempt of the editor using this as an attack against myself as an editor, as they've also ignored this ANI-notice. It is alarming that this behavior is continued to be acceptable to Misplaced Pages and its administration. livelikemusic 18:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm kind of on break at the moment and haven't had time to review all the edits, but I did notice that at The Bold and the Beautiful article, User:Gabrielkat seems to have stopped reverting and then re-instating others' edits until last week, and then when they did, they self-reverted to the old edit count. This to me suggests a one time slip-up, rather than bad faith continuation of the disruptive behavior, though it's hard to tell when the user refuses to communicate. However, I have not had time to review the other diffs brought by User:livelikemusic. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Based on Adjwilley's comments and my own observations, I've issued a final warning to him, making it perfectly clear that if he does this again, he will be blocked. This is the last bit of rope he will likely see with this. Reverting edits and then adding them back as your own, I find that particularly offensive and inconsistent with our goals at Misplaced Pages, and I think I made that clear on his talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Adjwilley and Dennis Brown: I appreciate the moving to ANI, I hadn't noticed it wasn't there in the first place. My apologies; should have paid a bit more attention to the exact noticeboard I was posting. I hope that their final warning, despite their inability to communicate between editors and their insistent reverting of anything I leave on their talk page. I only hope this is a one-time slipup on their behalf, and that the final warning issued by Dennis Brown works out in the end. And I only hope they do not add in the information prior to the episode's completed airing (such as they did at General Hospital). Should the behavior arise again, should I re-open on ANI or report to one of you? livelikemusic 15:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- You can ping either or both of us, with diff linking back. One like this: should be enough to job our memories. If we don't respond in 24 hours (we do have day jobs and such) then you can file again or ask another uninvolved admin. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: Excellent. Again, thank you to both you and Adjwilley for your assistance on this issue, as we all strive to keep with the goals of Misplaced Pages. (: livelikemusic 16:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Cleanup after a user needed
I think this one is all cleared up. If not, you all know what to do... (non-admin closure) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Ranagolam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
After creating a blank article called "Deleted this article" and repeatedly contesting its deletion, Ranagolam has blanked another user's page and moved it to two different locations. I don't have the permission to move it back. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'll take care of it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I didn't see anything really blockable, just strange, so I just deleted the whole mess. The user page he blanked was basically an inappropriate userspace bio that hadn't been written by the user anyway. M's original userpage, the only real user involved here besides Rangolam, was deleted at user request in 2009. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:37, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'd've just dismissed it as a user not knowing what they're doing, but the page creation has me leaving their contributions page open in another tab. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:43, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Why is it even possible for anyone to create a blank page? There's no possible good reason to create a page with nothing on it at all. Nyttend (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I could see it being useful outside of article space (someone wants to get rid of their redlink username, but not actually wanting a userpage), but it would make some sense to have a filter preventing blank articles. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Why is it even possible for anyone to create a blank page? There's no possible good reason to create a page with nothing on it at all. Nyttend (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Cali11298
Moving to WP:ANThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Cali11298 is a edit-warrior, personal-attacker, and prolific socker who already has 45 confirmed socks to his name. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Cali11298/Archive: he has over 12 SPI cases with multiple sleepers found on almost every case.
He needs to be banned. I'm also sending an abuse report to Verizon as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esquivalience (talk • contribs) 23:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think complaining to the ISP has ever accomplished anything, but it would be great to hear a positive story. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Am I missing something? He appears to have been banned in April... what did I miss? Ogress smash! 08:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- The place to propose a community ban is WP:AN, not WP:ANI (although we aren't usually slavish to it). I don't recommend it, but if you must, you need to do so in a proper format and such. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Actually, he's already de facto banned anyway per the provisions of WP:BANBLOCKDIFF and WP:IAR (there is not a snowball's chance in hell that an admin would unblock), archive at will.Someone will yell WP:PII, moving to WP:AN. Esquivalience 17:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Averysoda
After an admin posted a warning not to violate WP:BLP at Talk:Battle of Shuja'iyya, the author of the source being discussed, Max Blumenthal, was then described by User:Averysoda as both an anti-Semite and a bigot, in successive edits.
Averysoda was further advised by an admin on the inappropriateness of these remarks yet he brushed them off.
I advised him to strike out the offensive comments.
I notified him on his talk page of the problem.
He appears not to take these warnings seriously, since he talks past them.
The user has been alerted here.Nishidani (talk) 17:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Given his personal hostility to a known and established writer, his insistence on smearing him, I ask that he be sanctioned by being asked to refrain from editing any articles or pages where Blumenthal is being cited or discussed.Nishidani (talk) 17:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Is this what you wanted? I didn't know how to "strike off" comments until now. It wasn't my intention to offend your sensitivity and I deeply regret it.--Averysoda (talk) 17:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- No. Your edit summary says:per censorship asked by Nishidani.
- This means that you think striking out a smear is not compliance with policy, but bending to a threat by another editor who is acting as a censor. If you believe Blumenthal, against all the evidence, is an anti-Semite, and a bigot (as opposed to a critic of bigotry, you shouldn't be editing anywhere near articles where he is cited, or discussions boards regarding him as a source. My sensitivities have nothing to do with it.Nishidani (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent. Notice the sanction being requested (for an alleged first offense by a relatively new user) would solve a problem for Nishidani, not the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia's problem, as far as there is one, was solved when "bigot" was struck out. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Another personal attack, as several on the page. I am asking for an independent judgement not a partisan harangue by either side. Nishidani (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, Nishidani. I recognize I made a mistake. I should have chosen my words more carefully. Strong words like "antisemite" and "bigoted" are not appropriate, even when they were written in the heat of discussion, as you may understand (in response to the "repulsive Jewish state" you mentioned). I won't repeat those words again. Could we move on with the main subject of the debate, which is to determine whether Blumenthal is a reliable source or not?--Averysoda (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Another personal attack, as several on the page. I am asking for an independent judgement not a partisan harangue by either side. Nishidani (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Averysoda's recent comment suggests the editor doesn't understand that WP:BLP is a non-negotiable policy, not a matter of violating another editor's delicate "sensitivity". — Malik Shabazz /Stalk 19:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read his comment just above yours? You neglected to mention he removed the comment you reference above, 15 minutes after posting it and before you brought it up here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Did you follow the sequence of events before claiming a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent? Cus I see the user declining to strike claims that a living person is a bigoted anti-semite until this was brought here. Might be a better idea to advise your pal to not smear living people on Misplaced Pages instead of arguing with the people who specifically asked him to remove the comment at his or her talk page before anyone brought it up here. And even after being brought here, its not that the smear has no place here, its that Averysoda thinks the problem is offending sensitivities. You know what is pretty clear here? When a user goes through these acrobatics at AN/I it isnt because they actually recognize a mistake, its that they are worried about being sanctioned so they say whatever they think they need to so that they may avoid that. Oh, and its also pretty clear that a support network will come to their aid in waving off any problem instead of trying to take them aside and informing them that we have certain standards of behavior here, and insulting living people without basis violates that. nableezy - 16:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear that most of your edits in the last month were either reverting or talking about edits by the subject of this report, regardless of a BLP violation. I doubt your ability to read their mind (or perhaps you were just projecting). It's also pretty clear that a new editor is unlikely to respond well to this kind of "request". And lastly, it's pretty clear that treating new editors harshly doesn't serve Misplaced Pages's dwindling editor count that well, either.
- He made a minor BLP violation and corrected it. Please explain why you are agitating for a sanction for a first offence that was corrected fairly quickly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I didnt know my edits were the subject here. Or yours for that matter. Calling a living person an anti-semite and a bigot is not a minor BLP violation and refusing to take it down when asked to by 2 editors until an AN/I report is filed, and then saying that they are taking it down to rectify the offense to another's sensitivities is not correcting it fairly quickly. I havent agitated for anything by the way. Id just like to see a Misplaced Pages in which people dont rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating, and instead tries to advise them what the proper thing to do is. Guess that aint what this place is yet tho. nableezy - 20:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- A. He called him a bigot, not an anti-semite. B. It was corrected within 2 hours and 7 minutes. That's fairly quickly in my book. C. I'm fairly certain he now understands what he can and can't say re living persons. D. Do I need to show some examples of you "rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating"? Because that won't be hard to do. So kindly cut the bullshit. Thanks. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- A. he also said And I don't care if that guy is Jewish ... I doubt a non-Jewish antisemite can be worse than him. B. It might be fairly quickly if it hadn't been a shade under 2 hours from when this notice was posted. A notice that was answered in 2 minutes with a I'm going to completely ignore the issue comment. And then another request that the material be removed was likewise fairly quickly shrugged off as "meaningless". It only was fairly quickly removed when it was brought here, when a praise the heavens Saul has fallen off his ass moment appears to have struck, and either it was that the user self-reflected during the 15 minutes between the last time the user decided that it was meaningless to call smearing a living person offensive and come to the conclusion that it really is against out policies to use such language, or it was fear of being sanctioned and doing whatever they felt necessary to reduce that chance. Im gonna take a shot in the dark and say it was the latter. C. Im not. D. Go right ahead, though that would once again fall under obfuscating from the issue at hand, but I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. Because I, nor you, are under discussion here. And as much as you would like to deflect from what is, the fact remains that it is Averysoda's actions that are pertinent here. nableezy - 21:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- That was very long and I kinda lost interest somewhere in the middle. What's your point? That he should receive some kind of serious sanction because for two hours it said on a talk page that a living person was a bigot, and that Averysoda didn't respond well to someone who was a complete jerk to him? What do you want exactly? I think the fact you follow him around and revert him on pages you've never edited before is quite relevant to why you're here, btw. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well maybe if you pay attention and make it past somewhere in the middle youll see I havent actually asked for sanctions. As far as following him around, when a user repeatedly makes poor edits and says dishonest things in their edit summaries which result in unambiguous violations of policy, I sometimes check where else that has happened and correct those issues. I think you should actually read WP:HOUND and see the part about fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. But again, my edits arent the subject of this report. Deflect all you like, but your pal is the one that has been editing poorly. nableezy - 16:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Averysoda seems to be engaged with various editors on a number of pages, he seems not interested in dialogue but to create various edits to suit a POV or nationalist agenda. Another report has been added on his page today, I fear this will only escalate as obviously Averysoda has been caught up in a very serious nationalist agenda. I see no alternative but to a 6 month topic ban in relations to History of Israel, conflicts in involving Israel including pre-modern state and all Arab-Israeli conflicts. --Rockybiggs (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- That was very long and I kinda lost interest somewhere in the middle. What's your point? That he should receive some kind of serious sanction because for two hours it said on a talk page that a living person was a bigot, and that Averysoda didn't respond well to someone who was a complete jerk to him? What do you want exactly? I think the fact you follow him around and revert him on pages you've never edited before is quite relevant to why you're here, btw. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- A. he also said And I don't care if that guy is Jewish ... I doubt a non-Jewish antisemite can be worse than him. B. It might be fairly quickly if it hadn't been a shade under 2 hours from when this notice was posted. A notice that was answered in 2 minutes with a I'm going to completely ignore the issue comment. And then another request that the material be removed was likewise fairly quickly shrugged off as "meaningless". It only was fairly quickly removed when it was brought here, when a praise the heavens Saul has fallen off his ass moment appears to have struck, and either it was that the user self-reflected during the 15 minutes between the last time the user decided that it was meaningless to call smearing a living person offensive and come to the conclusion that it really is against out policies to use such language, or it was fear of being sanctioned and doing whatever they felt necessary to reduce that chance. Im gonna take a shot in the dark and say it was the latter. C. Im not. D. Go right ahead, though that would once again fall under obfuscating from the issue at hand, but I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. Because I, nor you, are under discussion here. And as much as you would like to deflect from what is, the fact remains that it is Averysoda's actions that are pertinent here. nableezy - 21:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- A. He called him a bigot, not an anti-semite. B. It was corrected within 2 hours and 7 minutes. That's fairly quickly in my book. C. I'm fairly certain he now understands what he can and can't say re living persons. D. Do I need to show some examples of you "rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating"? Because that won't be hard to do. So kindly cut the bullshit. Thanks. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I didnt know my edits were the subject here. Or yours for that matter. Calling a living person an anti-semite and a bigot is not a minor BLP violation and refusing to take it down when asked to by 2 editors until an AN/I report is filed, and then saying that they are taking it down to rectify the offense to another's sensitivities is not correcting it fairly quickly. I havent agitated for anything by the way. Id just like to see a Misplaced Pages in which people dont rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating, and instead tries to advise them what the proper thing to do is. Guess that aint what this place is yet tho. nableezy - 20:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Did you follow the sequence of events before claiming a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent? Cus I see the user declining to strike claims that a living person is a bigoted anti-semite until this was brought here. Might be a better idea to advise your pal to not smear living people on Misplaced Pages instead of arguing with the people who specifically asked him to remove the comment at his or her talk page before anyone brought it up here. And even after being brought here, its not that the smear has no place here, its that Averysoda thinks the problem is offending sensitivities. You know what is pretty clear here? When a user goes through these acrobatics at AN/I it isnt because they actually recognize a mistake, its that they are worried about being sanctioned so they say whatever they think they need to so that they may avoid that. Oh, and its also pretty clear that a support network will come to their aid in waving off any problem instead of trying to take them aside and informing them that we have certain standards of behavior here, and insulting living people without basis violates that. nableezy - 16:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
This was a WP:BLP violation, but in my limited interaction with Averysoda, he seems to be amenable to reasonable argument. For instance, he reverted his edit here, after I explained policy to him, and also he understood my explanation of WP:PRESERVE here. He seems to be a new user, so a bit of leeway is fine. Kingsindian ♝♚ 08:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian, I think this latest edit sums up what we are dealing with here. Averysoda actually broke a 1RR rule, but then relised his mistake reversed this, and wait until today to revert without breaking the rules. Surely if we were dealing with a constructive and friendly editor in the time awaiting to revert within the rules, he could have taken to the talk pages. This will only get worse. When I have more time I will go through his full history --Rockybiggs (talk) 11:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- That does look bad. I wonder if he realizes that WP:1RR and WP:3RR are simply bright lines, and edit warring, even if slow-moving, is not allowed? He should read WP:GAMING. Kingsindian ♝♚ 12:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian, I've now started to look at his history, I can say with full confidence Averysoda is fully aware edit-waring isn't allowed, there has been enough warnings on his page. He has also demonstrated he is not willing to engage with anyone in the talk pages, as I'm really struggling to find any talk page comments from this user. Clearly has set himself on a path of editing and edit warring until pages look how he wishes with very little engagement with other users.--Rockybiggs (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- LOL! That's funny. The pot calling the kettle black (Rockybiggs is seeing the mote in one's brother's eye without noticing he has been engaged in clear edit-warring many times before).--Averysoda (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian, I've now started to look at his history, I can say with full confidence Averysoda is fully aware edit-waring isn't allowed, there has been enough warnings on his page. He has also demonstrated he is not willing to engage with anyone in the talk pages, as I'm really struggling to find any talk page comments from this user. Clearly has set himself on a path of editing and edit warring until pages look how he wishes with very little engagement with other users.--Rockybiggs (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I noticed now that you are plunking, without reading the text, a blob or two from a dated book by a novelist who ventured into the intricate history of the PLO, on several pages, and whose book is so dated she only got it back into print by self-republishing it. This is becoming a behavioural issue. At South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000) here and here. This broke 1R. The same blob is introduced now at 1982 Lebanon War
- That article has a well documented section which reads:
Between July 1981 and June 1982, as a result of the Habib ceasefire, the Lebanese-Israeli border "enjoyed a state of calm unprecedented since 1968." But the 'calm' was tense. US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig filed a report with US President Ronald Reagan on Saturday 30 January 1982 that revealed Secretary Haig's fear that Israel might, at the slightest provocation, start a war against Lebanon. The 'calm' lasted nine months. Then, on 21 April 1982, after a landmine killed an Israeli officer while he was visiting a South Lebanese Army gun emplacement in Taibe, Lebanon, the Israeli Air Force attacked the Palestinian-controlled coastal town of Damour, killing 23 people
- The blobs you introduced from then read:
after constant attacks from the PLO on the civilian population of Galilee in northern Israel.(lead
From the ceasefire, established in July 1981, until the start of the war, the Israeli government reported 270 terrorist attacks by the PLO in Israel, the occupied territories, and the Jordanian and Lebanese border (in addition to 20 attacks on Israeli interests abroad).Becker, Jillian (1984). PLO: The Rise and Fall of the Palestine Liberation Organization. AuthorHouse. p. 257. ISBN 978-1-4918-4435-9.
- I.e. we have sources saying there was calm on the borders preceding the war. And you come up with a source with an outdated piece of official propaganda no one takes seriously any more, which says the exact opposite, a piece of hasbara at the time which was buried by later research, and edit-war to keep it in.
- (a) Becker's work is so dated, and is only the Israeli official line which historiography doesn't accept, even in Israel, that the edition you cite is 'self-published'.
- (b)You haven't even troubled to read the text. The figures you introduce stand in start contrast to the actual data given by the UN peacekeeping body observing Israeli and Palestinian behavior on both sides of the border. Articles are meant to have internal cogency and be neutral. You cannot plunk 'stuff' in that implies the documented remainder of the text is false. You are hyperactively dumping 'stuff' without considering the mess it causes, as here. Sheer POV-pushing in multiple articles, with very little talk page justification. Any attempt to revert you gets reverted.Nishidani (talk) 21:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Becker is a reliable journalist that was on the ground during the Lebanon conflict. In addition, I found two more reliable sources (from books) in just a few minutes, also reporting PLO attacks from Lebanon as a reason for the 1982 Israeli invasion. In any case, I don't understand why you refuse to discuss this on the talk page of the article instead of here.--Averysoda (talk) 22:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- That does look bad. I wonder if he realizes that WP:1RR and WP:3RR are simply bright lines, and edit warring, even if slow-moving, is not allowed? He should read WP:GAMING. Kingsindian ♝♚ 12:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian, I think this latest edit sums up what we are dealing with here. Averysoda actually broke a 1RR rule, but then relised his mistake reversed this, and wait until today to revert without breaking the rules. Surely if we were dealing with a constructive and friendly editor in the time awaiting to revert within the rules, he could have taken to the talk pages. This will only get worse. When I have more time I will go through his full history --Rockybiggs (talk) 11:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Outside persuasion and canvassing from /r/pcmasterrace
There appears to be a co-ordinated effort from the subreddit /r/pcmasterrace to add derogatory information to a variety of video game related articles, and erase historical context from one other. A search for "wikipedia" provides some idea of the problem One prominent example:
In this thread the creation of new console list articles is proposed, with the purpose of "showing the peasants how small their collections really are". These articles were subsequently created by User:Wikinium but later redirected by other users. Paid exclusivity was also targeted by /r/pcmasterrace. It was nominated for deletion in April. The result was redirect to console exclusivity. User Wikinium ignored the result and quietly restored the page after attention had been diverted. (diff) The recent addition of criticism to Xbox One by Wikinium (diff) also correlates to a boastful submission on /r/pcmasterrace the same day.
And today, the same editor is behaving in a disruptive manner on PC Master Race. In order to describe the development of the term, and how it was coined, a fleeting reference to Nazi ideology is made. This linguistic context is supported by reliable sources, such as PC Gamer's executive editor Tyler Wilde, who observes:
"It began as a joke from Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw, who was mocking our elitist attitude with the internet’s favorite analogy: the Nazi analogy. That was seven years ago, but the phrase is still everywhere, said without any consideration (or perhaps understanding) of the historical context, without any consideration of the original context, and without any of the original self-mockery. I obviously realize that no one is actually saying that PC gamers are the preferred people of Hitler. That’s absurd, and it’s supposed to be absurd. It’s a joke. I’d be mortified if my friends and family thought I were part of something called the “PC Master Race.” They don’t get the context, and even if I explained it to them, a half-forgotten seven-year-old internet joke doesn’t expunge the historical meaning from the phrase, which refers to the Aryan race, which is a term still used by people with swastika tattoos."
I'm not sure which editor elaborated its etymology and popular usage, but our single sentence description appears reasonable. Wikinium nevertheless deleted the above citation, and others similar to it, without explanation (diff) It was restored by myself on the 26th (diff) but deleted by the same user, who described my restoration as "vandalism". (diff) It was reinserted again on the 27th, with a clear and helpful edit summary (diff) only to be deleted again by Wikinium without explanation. (diff) (diff) And once again today (diff) reverted as "troll edits" (diff).
A note on User:Wikinium's talk page has gone unanswered, and a clear warning ignored. Administrator guidance is welcome. — TPX 20:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I should include a reference to the talk page currently discussing this: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:PC_Master_Race#Naziism_.26_Holocaust_troll_edits
- Ever since discovering links from /r/PCMasterRace to Misplaced Pages in recent weeks, TPX has had a vendetta against the page and users related to these pages, and is attempting to include what I believe to be (partially) irrelevant material (the claims about Naziism, Master Race, and Holocaust are not entirely sourced within the article written by Tyler Wilde - he only briefly mentions "Nazi pastiches"). I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time I reverted the section back to its original state. The fact of the matter is, the term was not created for and has never been used in a racial context. I stand by my suggestion that most of this be placed in a Misconceptions section, because that's exactly what it is. Wikinium (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- When did you make your proposal? I agree that adding Fanboy in the 'See also' subsection was not suitable. However the inclusion of Fandom does seem appropriate to describe the intense level of enthusiasm among some PC gamers. Can you point to another example of my vendetta, Wikinium? — TPX 21:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I actually made it just earlier today. I think it's a good idea to make a Misconceptions section. The information you want to include can be included (I was never against that), but it can be placed in a more appropriate section, rather than at the very front of the section that's meant to document the usage of the term "PC Master Race". Placing it in the absolute front of the section meant for "PC Master Race" kind of makes it look like the term has a racial or ethnic context. I don't want to dig for more edits (I referenced them in the talk page). It was edits like that that made me think you were there to vandalize it rather than actually help improve the clarity of the article. Wikinium (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Are you are referring to the talk page proposal you submitted literally as I was filing my complaint? (diff) If the answer is Yes, it does not support your contention (above) that "I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time", as the editing dispute occurred at a time earlier than your proposition. Please clarify this point. — TPX 21:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- I actually made it just earlier today. I think it's a good idea to make a Misconceptions section. The information you want to include can be included (I was never against that), but it can be placed in a more appropriate section, rather than at the very front of the section that's meant to document the usage of the term "PC Master Race". Placing it in the absolute front of the section meant for "PC Master Race" kind of makes it look like the term has a racial or ethnic context. I don't want to dig for more edits (I referenced them in the talk page). It was edits like that that made me think you were there to vandalize it rather than actually help improve the clarity of the article. Wikinium (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- When did you make your proposal? I agree that adding Fanboy in the 'See also' subsection was not suitable. However the inclusion of Fandom does seem appropriate to describe the intense level of enthusiasm among some PC gamers. Can you point to another example of my vendetta, Wikinium? — TPX 21:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Those lists need pruning of the non-notable redlinks. Guy (Help!) 23:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- You're telling me... I think 90% of the red links added to these lists are people just trying to catalog their own game rather than contribute a good item to the list. Wikinium (talk) 01:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I apologize if my comments are not the proper manner for the notice board, but I wanted to 'bump' this section as it were, as the page in question has now been full protected as a result of the offsite canvasing and edit warring. @Ged UK:, not sure if you were aware of this section when protecting, just FYI. -- ferret (talk) 12:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- On a semi-related note, I do want Wikinium to stop making all these terrible list articles. Every single list shown at List of lists of console titles has been redirected, mostly because they still look like this a year after their creation. Sergecross73 msg me 13:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't created a list page in a very long time. I created those hoping that people capable of adding things to the list, but a lot of them ended up being redundant due to pages like List of video game exclusives (eighth generation). Some ended up not being duplicates, and others did. You won't have to worry about me creating any more of the sort. Now that I've seen them all and worked on the majority of them, I believe every platform-related game list now exists on Misplaced Pages in some form or another. Wikinium (talk) 15:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Only a cautionary note, though I'm not aware of any specific organized attempt to affect this, but some of these edits like the PC Master Race article has also been discussed on Gamergate-related boards. --MASEM (t) 15:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, the troll harassment and canvasing board "GamerGhazi" picked it up recently, which means the kind of troll edits that got us the frankly embarrassingly biased GamerGate Controversy article will be spilling over to this one. KiTA (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sylvain.nahas
Looks like the user has been adopted. (non-admin closure) Erpert 01:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sylvain.nahas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has no clue how the English Misplaced Pages works, can someone please help this person? Canvassing, removal of chunks of text from an AfD and so on, in definite need of guidance. Guy (Help!)
- I think the explanations/advice by admin Guy should be enough for the time being. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I guess I (unwillingly) misbehaved! Kind like an elephant in a china shop. I apologize, and thank Guy for his understanding. I begin to perceive the complexity of it all, and assuming I'd like to learn these rules, I do not even know where to begin. Would you be kind enough to give some advices on that? Syl Syl 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Sylvain.nahas: try Misplaced Pages:A primer for newcomers. JohnCD (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- @JohnCD: Seems exactly to be what I needed! Thank you. Syl 22:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I guess I (unwillingly) misbehaved! Kind like an elephant in a china shop. I apologize, and thank Guy for his understanding. I begin to perceive the complexity of it all, and assuming I'd like to learn these rules, I do not even know where to begin. Would you be kind enough to give some advices on that? Syl Syl 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Legal threats
USER BLOCKED User indef blocked as a NOTHERE case, and offending Sandbox page deleted, by Dennis Brown. Separately, no action was taken by the WMF here. (non-admin closure) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
So constitutes a clear legal threat, not against Misplaced Pages, but individuals at FBI, CIA, DOD and DHS. Whilst WP:NLT seems only to apply to legal threats against Misplaced Pages, I wasn't sure how to proceed. Seems they're WP:NOTHERE, as their talkpage is also a statement claiming to be to the United States Court of Appeals. Either they're very confused and think Misplaced Pages is affiliated with all these organisations, or they're WP:NOTHERE, and are trying to use Misplaced Pages as a vehicle for their legal threats against organisations. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- My interpretation is that he knows that Misplaced Pages is not affiliated with the US Government, and is using his sandbox and his talk page to what he perceives as great wrongs, in a way that is not in the scope of what Misplaced Pages is. However, this is really a matter for WMF Legal. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- It was a soapbox/webhost. Deleted sandbox, blanked talk page (note that user page was already deleted with same info), and indef blocked/no talk page for wp:nothere. Since it wasn't direct at enwp, contacting legal@ really isn't required, but you certainly can if you think it is best. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- WMF concluded that it was ranting. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Johnwest1999
USER BLOCKED User in question indef blocked as a NOTHERE by our second newest Admin, NeilN. (Well done, Neil!) (non-admin closure) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Johnwest1999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Johnwest1999's common behavior includes:
- Continually drafting hoax articles on his userpage.
- Regularly running up to uw4-vandalism warnings, waiting a bit, and then removing them (, , ). Yes, it's his right to remove them, but people really need to check backlogs before starting over at uw1 again (why I avoided Twinkle for so long).
- Unsourced changes to various articles, despite repeated explanations and warnings not to.
Some highlights of his behavior include:
- Blanking a user's talk page archives for reverting the next edit
- Posting nonsense conspiracy theories about NASA trying to use time travel to rewrite episodes of My Little Pony (something this IP also did)
- Inserting errors at Delta III
- Citing the My Little Pony Wikia as a source on a Russian news station that went defunct in 1991 -- to justify this deletion
- Inserting more errors despite clear instructions not to at Canada
- Attempting to push one of the hoax articles he was drafting
- Blanking out a user's page after they warned him for edit warring (while making personal attacks) to vandalize an article
- More personal attacks
- More blanking user pages, for which he received final warnings
Can someone show me how his continued activity doesn't violate WP:NOTHERE? If he is here to improve the encyclopedia, the costs of keeping him prevents his less negative activity from being worthwhile. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- With the exception of his user page, can someone show me how his edits since coming off his last block are disruptive? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- None yet, but the block was for just the NASA/MLP bit and the talk archive blanking, not the totality of his (recurring) behavior. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I kind of have to say that I do believe that a block will likely be inevitable here. It's kind of a question of how much WP:ROPE we want to give them before we block. I kind of see him continuing to work on his hoax userspace page as kind of a bad sign. In any case, we do have to let him screw up again before blocking him. It's kind of an antsy waiting game at this point. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 10:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I understand that he's not going to be blocked right away, but there's still enough reason that the community could propose some other solution in case he decides to do his usual tactic of waiting until everyone forgets about him. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Like Tokyogirl79 says : WP:ROPE, In the meantime we can slap a CSD on his user page. Anyone like to do the honours? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ROPE has gone to work, as Johnwest1999 just vandalized the discussion about himself. ~ Rob 15:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've blocked indef. Enough of this. --NeilN 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well that was quick. J has been blocked by NeilN. MarnetteD|Talk 15:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Pudeo
The user is currently engaged in repeated vandalism-Blanking(potentially) by inserting his potential biased opinion into his reason for doings so; I don't particularly blame him however. We are currently debating Misplaced Pages's rules/position regarding WP:BLP vs Verifiability of a source article establishing a living person's applicability to a wiki when a news source agrees with a label; we are both uncertain whom is correct on this discussion/situation. All concerned would appreciate an experienced editor or administrative perspective.
We are both adhering to WP:BRD in our perspectives in the .
The wiki: Hair_fetishism
The offending DIFF: NZ4Life (talk) 03:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- "Biased opinion", not "bias opinion". BMK (talk) 08:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well spotted sir. NZ4Life (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hi. In my opinion the right venue is Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, as we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand John Key a hair fetishist. Based on the source, it says " has been labelled a hair fetishist", but not by whom. Was it a single Twitter user or so? The BLP implications on a vague source are more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist. --Pudeo' 03:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- While your opinion is nice and all, it is not fact or a source. "we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand John Key a hair fetishist." This is an incorrect statement, 3_News is labeling John Key as such on behalf of their undisclosed sources in a published article and we are referencing their article. The user does not appear to distinguish the difference in his own opinion. As such, the "repeated" implications of his actions and argument would jeopardise the integrity of all credible news sources based on Verifiability on Wiki. "more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist" what is considered more/gained/serious, is not for you to be judge, jury and executioner of, it is what can be referenced correctly. Thus your action's appear to be a biased attempt at blanking and in need of administrative clarification. Or potentially my own, not my place to judge. NZ4Life (talk) 04:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Pudeo has done nothing wrong. The content is probably not appropriate content for that article - see WP:COATRACK. It is not vandalism to remove inappropriate content - see WP:NOT VANDALISM. The appropriate place (if any) for that content is John Key, where I see it already occupies about one and a half lines - about all it actually warrants. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Figura2000
User blocked and told to behave on their return. Amortias (T)(C) 11:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Figura2000 has made a number of moves to the page on the 2016 Olympic Stadium, now at Estádio Nilton Santos (Rio de Janeiro). The background is that one of the tenants, the football club Botafogo de Futebol e Regatas, has been allowed to refer to the stadium as Estádio Nilton Santos but the stadium remains officially the Estádio Olímpico Municipal João Havelange. According to the last two RMs, the consensus has been to call the article Estádio Olímpico João Havelange per common usage. Would I be right to revert to the previous page name without opening a new RM? Hack (talk) 03:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- There was a discussion at Talk:Estádio_Nilton_Santos_(Rio_de_Janeiro)#Requesting_move with a February close. There was protection which expired on May 20th but Figura2000 seems to have popped up in June and just moved the pages without any further discussion. Pages removed and locked, editor has been blocked for a block for 24 hours with a warning to knock it off or start another RM. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Newly created disruption-only accounts: urgent action needed
ResolvedThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
AKHistorian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), ILiriaALB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) share a typical disruptive pattern and continuously remove the alternative names in a limited number of articles. Seeing that their target articles are mostly the same ones it appears that both of the accounts are involved in some short of meatpuppetry, not to mention they were both created the very same day (June 20). It appears that indef blocks can't be avoided in this case, since they avoid any kind of talkpage participation and continue this kind of activity.Alexikoua (talk) 05:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Both are Confirmed socks of one another and have been indefinitely blocked. Best, Tiptoety 06:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Gial Ackbar
DUPLICATE TOPIC (non-admin closure) See above thread "Johnwest1999." Ian.thomson (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
Gial Ackbar's behavior is going wrong. I would mind banning him from the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnwest1999 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- The reporter is trying to get revange that I reported him for vandalism once. Please bann him. Gial Ackbar (talk) 15:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
London bus routes
PowerofP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
I have just reverted a number of less than helpful edits to an article called The Den one of those changed the wording from London Buses route 21 to London Bus route 21. I checked the two links and they redirect to different articles London Bus route 21 redirects to London bus route 21 an article created on 12 May 2015, by user:PowerofP an account created on 30 March 2015 at 03:51
The article London Buses route 21 was made into a redirect by user:Alzarian16 at 15:35, 29 April 2011 to List of bus routes in London
There followed a slow redirect restore series of edit involving user:Tentinator, user:CourtneyBonnick, user:BlueMoonset, user:Asbeto4 until user:JamesBWatson indefinitely protected the page on 20 September 2014 at 11:05 with the comment "Protected London Buses route 21: Persistent sock puppetry on a large number of related articles". JBW is on a wikibreak at the moment otherwise user talk:JamesBWatson would have been my first port of call. As I am not fully versed in this particular set of edit, I will leave it to other to see if the article London bus route 21 is a case for wack a rat, or if London Buses route 21 should be redirect to it.
See also User talk:JamesBWatson/Archive_60#Blocked user Ibsiadkgneoeb back as SeatF22 and category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Ibsiadkgneoeb
-- PBS (talk) 15:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- This would appear to also involve London bus route 295, created June 25, which appears to restore the pre-redirected London Buses route 295 article under the new, slightly different title, while retaining the bold "London Buses route 295" in the article's lead. Both articles, along with a great many others, were deemed non-notable and redirected to the List of bus routes in London article, yet the same eventually blocked user (Ibsiadkgneoeb, Asbeto4, SeatF22, Delboy18) kept bringing them back. I'm guessing that the slight variation in article names from the standard is designed to prevent the articles from showing up in Watchlists. I have redirected both to the List of bus routes in London article. I expect to submit a sockpuppet investigation shortly (WP:DUCK if nothing else). BlueMoonset (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Personal attacks and threats from Tarc
Going nowhere. Ed 05:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is too much (diff 1). Its threatening edit summary is: "no YOU did not remove it, I DID. If you wish to participate in this discussio then by all means do so, but you will cease tagging my comments in any way, shape, or form. Immediately."
Fact is I did remove it (diff 2); Tarc did not remove it. (Where "it" is a personal attack by Tarc on Coretheapple.)
it followed on the heels of
this (diff). I commented on its threatening edit summary, and Tarc replied flippantly here (permalink to short section of talk:Tarc), stating that he ignores all tag-based warnings about policy violations!!!
Admins:
- Please confirm/refute that I removed a personal attack by Tarc on User:Coretheapple
- Please consider enforcement action regarding the policies Tarc was recently warned about, including WP:CIVIL (diff), WP:NPA (diff) , WP:OWN (diff) - by User:Dennis Bratland, and WP:EW (diff).
- Wow, this user has engaged in edit warring (e.g., ) and battleground conduct (e.g., , , , ). Tarc has already been sanctioned in three previous cases (Feb 2012, Oct 2013, Oct 2014 Oct 2014), according to ArbCom (11 ArbCom members) in January. Marc was "strongly warned that should future misconduct occur in any topic area, he may be banned from the English Misplaced Pages by motion of the Arbitration Committee", was topic-banned indefinitely, and was blocked for 3 days (AE) for violating that ban in February. (diff). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elvey (talk • contribs)
- I would rather be left alone, to be perfectly honest, and the claim of "threats" is 100% horseshit, and ther ewere no personal attacks aimed at Elvey either. Yes, I said something untowards last night to Coretheapple, then the OP above left a templated message which I removed unread as I usually do, Wp:DNFTT and all. The next day, today, OP removes my message entirely. I reverted that BUT redacted the problematic portion, and that should have been the end of it. But this person (who was not involved at all in the discussion) seems intent on claiming some sort of brownie point by my post "redacted by Elvey". I removed that, and warned the user on my talk page thread to knock it off.
- Let's observe here that neither the recipient of my now-regrettable remark nor anyone else in the discussion saw it as so egregious as to warrant redaction, only one if I recall observed that it was sub-optimal. I don't take kindly to drive-by busybodies, and the fact that I then struck my own comment realy renders this moot. 2 meritless ANIs in several days is 2 more than I care to deal with. Tarc (talk) 18:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- First, why is Coretheapple not bringing this request? Second, where are the personal attacks and threats alleged here? Ed 18:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I already provided links that clearly identify edits that evidence the personal attack and threats in my OP. What evidence are you disputing? this, Ed? Coretheapple thanked me for warning Tarc regarding his personal attack. That should be more than enough. Ed, again I ask you: please admit or deny that I removed a personal attack by Tarc on User:Coretheapple, with diff 2 above. Or, Ed, are you saying it'd be completely civil if I were to say that you (or another user): can't "control your wiki-hardon"? It's tantamount to a wiki-rape accusation. FS.--Elvey 20:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hello? Ed? --Elvey 20:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hello? Ed? --Elvey 05:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yep, this is the ANI I remember not-so-fondly; it's like that scene in Airplane! when everyone with a beef lines up to slap, stab, hang, shoot, etc...the hysterical passenger. Tarc (talk) 18:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like you picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue. Lugnuts 19:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Wait, there was an ANI you remembered fondly then? ;-) @Elvey, Still waiting for a reply to my question above. Ed 19:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I would like to know why Coretheapple isn't bringing this, and what on earth it's got to do with the OP. Black Kite (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Wait, there was an ANI you remembered fondly then? ;-) @Elvey, Still waiting for a reply to my question above. Ed 19:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Elvey: In my mind, re-factoring the talk page comment to begin with was fine, but edit-warring to keep your admonishment in after Tarc cleaned it up is insane. Just drop it. HiDrNick! 19:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Interesting tool, but it keeps timing out, isn't there something up with the wmflabs and toolservers lately? Anyways, I have made a conscious though not always successful effort to lessen the naughty bits in edit summaries, so if one looks at my last 9,999 contribs (seemed like a fun number), there are 6 f-bombs and 4 s-bombs in nearly 2 years. Not terrible for a salty old man. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- This edit summary and the content of the edit is what people are talking about here, and yes Tarc should be sanctioned for it if anyone gives a damn about NPA. No one told me about this ANI thread, and it would have been nice if I'd have been pinged or something. Coretheapple (talk) 20:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Can anyone provide even a smidgen of a clue as to what any on this has to do with writing an online encyclopaedia? If not, I suggest this thread be summarily closed per WP:NOBODYGIVESA%@#&. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, because comity and mutual respect are the underpinnings of the collegial atmosphere that we cherish at Misplaced Pages. Sorry, just joking. Look, I didn't bring this ANI thread, even though I am the "victim" because I expected such a dismissive "how dare you waste our time" reaction. The fact is, we don't care about NPA. Coretheapple (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, why didn't you complain at the time? Or any of the other participants? I think you're way way too overzealous in regards to anything to do with the Wikipediocracy, but I should not have expressed that sentiment in such a crude manner. It's been struck, and I apologize. Tarc (talk) 20:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I was more overwhelmed by the nonsensical character of your argument, and as indicated by this thread NPA doesn't amount to a hill of beans on Misplaced Pages. As for Wikipediocracy, you're confusing two things: the problem is COI, and the COI surrounding both the Wikipediocracy article itself and articles that concern its regulars. In particular, I am concerned by administrators and even a checkuser disregarding COI when their Wikipediocracy buddies are involved. But your apology is accepted and good day to you. Coretheapple (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well, why didn't you complain at the time? Or any of the other participants? I think you're way way too overzealous in regards to anything to do with the Wikipediocracy, but I should not have expressed that sentiment in such a crude manner. It's been struck, and I apologize. Tarc (talk) 20:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think the issue of a templated message (re. NPA) which Tarc (proudly) removed unread, on top of the rest, ought to be given admin attention; there's a reason DTTR is just an essay, along with TTR. Addressing his attempt to give the false impression (and separately, explicitly make the false claim) that I did NOT remove it (Where, again, "it" is a personal attack by Tarc on Coretheapple) but he DID is not edit warring or 'insane' (and calling it insane is hardly civil, User:DrNick), but sure, I could have let it slide. But, to use his colorful language: His claim that I did NOT remove it but he DID is "100% horseshit" as the diffs clearly show. If this closes with no action I'll start an RFC to delete WP:NPA. I think User:Coretheapple pings you via notifications. No? Glad you made it anyway. --Elvey 20:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I'll start an RFC to delete WP:NPA...
. What are you talking about? It is already gone, that's the whole point here. Tarc (talk) 20:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- You shouldn't have made the personal attack. But you did.
- You should have removed it after I specifically warned you in a personalized message on your talk page by writing :
This is a personal attack on User:Coretheapple: "You on the other hand can't control your wiki-hardon"
. But you didn't. Instead you removed it, unread. How 'bout an apology or agreement that one should not delete such talk page comments unread, but rather WP:AGF and so take them seriously? - You shouldn't have falsely claimed that I didn't remove the personal attack after I had exactly that. But you did. Several times. And you still haven't acknowledged doing so or apologized to me.
- Please consider striking your implicit accusation on your talk page that I'm a troll. (the reference to WP:DNTTR). Since WP:NPA is policy and all.
- It's taken ~35 further edits by a multitude of users before you even apologized for what's tantamount to a wiki-rape accusation against another user. I'm glad that you finally did so; a good start. Kudos. But something that addresses the bulk of the big issues is warranted as well. --Elvey 21:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Elvey, the "wiki-rape" shtick is so outrageously hyperbolic and offensive, you may want to be wary of a WP:BOOMERANG here. My comment used a crude metaphor for sex, it had nothing to do with sex itself. My primary objection to your meddling was that you reverted the entire post; the post was 2 sentences, 1 benign and 1 bad. You have no sense of proportion here or the ability to mediate or handle any sort of dispute whatsoever, and the only reason I offered an apology was that Apple indicated he found it offensive. You had no influence in that outcome. Now, let's move on. Tarc (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- How else should one understand
"You on the other hand can't control your wiki-hardon"
? What could one be doing with an uncontrolled "wiki-hardon" that harmed other editors but was NOT wiki-rape? --Elvey 05:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- How else should one understand
- Again, you should have removed it after I specifically warned you in a personalized message on your talk page by writing :
This is a personal attack on User:Coretheapple: "You on the other hand can't control your wiki-hardon"
. But you didn't. Instead you removed it, unread. I ask for apology or agreement that one should not delete such talk page comments unread, but rather WP:AGF and so take them seriously. - Again, you shouldn't have falsely claimed that I didn't remove the personal attack after I had exactly that. But you did. Several times. And you still haven't acknowledged doing so or apologized to me.
- Again, please consider striking your implicit accusation on your talk page that I'm a troll. (the reference to WP:DNTTR). Since WP:NPA is policy and all. Do I have to suck up that personal attack? Why? I knew that Coretheapple found it offensive which is why I persisted after you minimized and got defensive instead of apologizing. Then he indicated here that he found it offensive, and you finally apologized to Coretheapple.
Admins: please consider how Tarc responds to these requests, as well as the sympathetic comments by Pudeo, and User:Dr. Blofeld. --Elvey 05:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I see Ed just closed the discussion. Shouldn't an involved editor not be closing a discussion? That's my recollection of policy. Yet, Ed commented earlier in this thread. --Elvey 05:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Some general thoughts: clearly, Tarc, you're verbose. Use that instead of cheap shots like "wiki-hardon." Elvey, I've closed this thread. I've only made administrative comments here, and I'm nowhere near being involved. No action is going to be taken, so drop the stick. Ed 06:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Ed, Still waiting for a reply to my questions to you, far above. No objections if an uninvolved editor closes the thread, preferably after Ed actually replies to my questions, which I asked after Ed pestered me to reply to questions answered in th OP. --Elvey 06:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Repeated addition of unsourced POV and unsourced/unexplained changes after prior block for same.
IP blocked for two weeks by NeilN. (non-admin closure) Erpert 01:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
79.106.15.112 – previously blocked for POV on films and other unsourced changes. More of the same. Editor's prior block on June 14 (via AIV) was for unsourced POV in various film articles and a few unsourced numerical changes. Since the block, it is more of the same.
Request for new block at AIV rejected as "not vandalism". Are we no longer using AIV for instances of clear disruption that are not "vandalism"? - SummerPhD 19:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Pinging NeilN who placed the original block. You may find more success contacting the admin directly in cases of obvious repeat vandalism after a block. Ivanvector (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Blocked again. I warned the user during their last block that "adhering to Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy is not optional." Not acknowledging the concerns of multiple other editors is also problematic. --NeilN 21:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Block evasion by socks User:Futurewiki, User:Dragonrap2 and User:Mega22
See User:Mega256. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Links: Mega256 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dang. This guy won't quit! This keeps up, and we'll have to add Dragonrap2 to WP:LTA.
P.S. Is there any "official" record of this over at WP:SPI? Should a casefile page about this over at SPI be created?...Nevermind: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Dragonrap2 --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dang. This guy won't quit! This keeps up, and we'll have to add Dragonrap2 to WP:LTA.
- More edits (more categories stuff) from Mega256 today. Anyone?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Could someone please block User:Mega256, as has been done immediately with all the previous socks? He continues to edit. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Request for deletion
Serious uncited accusations should be removed, also at pt WP (content still in last revision and on talk page, also here still in article. Private blog snapshot, which gives some clues on conflicts. However the content here is not referenced and per BLP. prokaryotes (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- This looks like a BLP vio to quick review. An acusation of murder is indeed serious and a BLP violation if not cited; I am about to leave work and don't do complex edits while mobile. Another editor should review with an eye towards BLP deletion of the claim, but look at all the details. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead with revision deletion and have sent an email requesting oversight. If anyone who speaks the other languages cares to notify the other wikis (es.wiki and pt.wiki) that would be helpful. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I will try to notify the Portuguese Misplaced Pages in the morning unless someone beats me to it. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 04:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have looked through the Portuguese version of the article and there are no mentions of murder accusations? Unless the comments are about something else? @Diannaa: Is it possible you tell me what was in the edits you deleted? Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 15:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've removed the addition in the pt version, see edit history (revision history). prokaryotes (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, nevermind. You could have told me you removed the content :P Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 16:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I thought i did when i mentioned the rev above, though wasn't very clear i agree. prokaryotes (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, nevermind. You could have told me you removed the content :P Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 16:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've removed the addition in the pt version, see edit history (revision history). prokaryotes (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead with revision deletion and have sent an email requesting oversight. If anyone who speaks the other languages cares to notify the other wikis (es.wiki and pt.wiki) that would be helpful. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User requesting unblock
- Captain JT Verity MBA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Race (human classification) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Race (biology) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive889#User:danielkueh playing games on Talk:Race (human classification)
I blocked User:Captain JT Verity MBA indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE on June 26, for being a new single-purpose account on the topic of race, whose main focus since June 16 has been revert-warring on article leads that concern race. For example Race (human classification) and Race (biology). He came to my attention by making five reverts in 24 hours on one of these articles, constantly changing the lead to insist that race is a biological reality. On 18 June, two days after beginning his race campaign, he opened an ANI thread which can be seen at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive889#User:danielkueh playing games on Talk:Race (human classification). Some participants in that thread warned him about WP:BOOMERANG. Accounts that are this aggressive and have catchy names are often socks, in my experience, so I opted not to work up through a graduated sequence of block lengths. As far as I know all his changes get reverted by others. He posted a request for unblock on June 27, stating
I hope my block is going to be reviewed. Clearly I have been dogpiled by a PC clique who refuse to address anything outside their fallacious echo chamber. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 07:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
It would be appreciated if another admin would review the unblock request and decide on it one way or the other. I haven't proposed any unblock conditions myself because I can't actually see any way they could make useful contributions here, but another admin might think differently. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Reviewed, he shows no sign of working collaboratively or to Misplaced Pages standards for evidence quality or neutrality. One trick pony. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Good block, the unblock rationale basically confirms the problem. Guy (Help!) 13:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Spongebob1944
User:Spongebob1944 has repeatedly reverted to an out-dated portrait image at Richard Burr without explanation:
In addition, it appears that the editor has engaged in persistent disruptive editing despite multiple warnings at his/her Talk page.CFredkin (talk) 01:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Although this user isn't quite active all the time, comments like this and this after warnings kind of skirt the line of WP:NOTHERE. Erpert 04:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- They're doing the same thing and inserting an older photos of living people across a variety of articles, for example here and here and here, without any explanation, and re-inserting them if removed. A look at the talk page shows that this is not a new issue and they've received multiple requests to stop this sort of behavior and they've also had instances with disruptive editing and other image policy issues. Through it all, and despite their high edit count they've made virtually no significant effort to communicate with other members of the community, save for their recent, blatantly uncivil remarks. They've gotten away with this sort of disruption for too long and have made no effort to improve their behavior so based on that I am blocking for a week. I agree that they're skirting NOTHERE as well. Swarm 06:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that they seem to have a history of disruptive editing; such as on Indiana where they have repeatedly insisted that something be listed as the state's nickname which is not a nickname, and refused to provide sources while removing tags. See: , , , , . The discussion on their usertalk page was unproductive User_talk:Spongebob1944#"Lincoln's Boyhood Home".~ ONUnicornproblem solving 15:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Date-changing IP is back
IP blocked for two weeks by Georgewilliamherbert. (non-admin closure) Erpert 04:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
75.115.201.17, an IP that has been known for making unsourced changes to the release dates of songs and albums, and previously been blocked for such edits, is back and making the exact same kinds of disruptive edits again. They have been warned about this many times in the past, and as I said, also been blocked for it, so this time, I feel that the best option is simply to block them again right away. --A guy saved by Jesus (talk) 02:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Blocked for 2 weeks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. --A guy saved by Jesus (talk) 02:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Augenblink and User:Augenblinkauch edit warring and block evasion
(non-admin closure) Augenblinkauch has been indeffed by GB fan as a sock of Augenblink, and a couple of IP-socks of theirs trying to disrupt this thread on WP:AN/I have also been blocked, so there's nothing more to do here. Thomas.W 12:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Augenblink was recently blocked for edit warring and block evasion at MigrationWatch UK, where they were inserting unsourced material against consensus and then reverting its removal with the edit summary "fixing vandalism". They have indicated on their talk page that "I can only continue to do the right thing myself by repairing vandalism whenever/however I am able to". User:Augenblinkauch has now appeared, and has resumed the same behaviour. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- There has been no "edit warring", merely acts of vandalism that I have repeatedly repaired. As long as User:Cordless Larry chooses to continue to vandalise that entry, I will continue to do anything I can to fix it. To allow his deliberate and repeated vandalism would be a serious breach of ethics. Augenblinkauch (talk) 09:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- They're at 3RR now, edit warring against consensus established on the talk page. Mr Potto (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, you seem confused. Please read WP:3RR. I am repairing obvious acts of vandalism, 3RR does not apply. Augenblinkauch (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Literally no one agrees with you on that, this has been discussed at length on your original talk page and the article's talk page, you're just blatantly ignoring what everyone else is saying and multiple people have reverted your edits. — Jeraphine Gryphon 10:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I cannot control whether you agree or not. If you are comfortable abetting these acts of vandalism, that is your prerogative. I, however, will continue to do whatever I can to maintain the integrity of Misplaced Pages in this small measure. Augenblinkauch (talk) 10:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's not vandalism, get it through your thick skull already. You're wasting everyone's time. Your rhetoric about Misplaced Pages's integrity etc is just an excuse to push in your edit against overwhelming consensus. — Jeraphine Gryphon 10:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I cannot control whether you agree or not. If you are comfortable abetting these acts of vandalism, that is your prerogative. I, however, will continue to do whatever I can to maintain the integrity of Misplaced Pages in this small measure. Augenblinkauch (talk) 10:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Literally no one agrees with you on that, this has been discussed at length on your original talk page and the article's talk page, you're just blatantly ignoring what everyone else is saying and multiple people have reverted your edits. — Jeraphine Gryphon 10:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Since this user clearly has no intention of heeding warnings or blocks, can we come up with a more sustainable solution to prevent them from editing adding unsourced material to the article? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, you seem confused. Please read WP:3RR. I am repairing obvious acts of vandalism, 3RR does not apply. Augenblinkauch (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Self-confessed sock used for WP:BLOCKEVASION. Revert, block, ignore. PC requested for page at WP:RPP. Keri (talk) 10:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have blocked Augenblinkauch as an obvious sock of Augenblink. -- GB fan 10:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Disruptive editing on Dog meat
Please could an admin take a look at the Dog meat article - it seems to have attracted the attention of a disruptive editor. Thanks in advance.DrChrissy 11:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Switzerland was originally included in wikipedia "dog meat" before Yulin festival was a hot topic on the news but someone removed it maybe because the western people were shame that the list had European country in dog eating list! Switzerland has 3% people who eat dogs and cats meat, don't believe me, google it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilin19892706 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, but I'm trying to help the user understand the reliable source issue with the Daily Mail here. I get where they're coming from, but I think it's a case of user not understanding our policies, rather than a deliberate bad faith attempt to disrupt. Valenciano (talk) 12:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- You might be right - let's see if they respond to our messages on the Talk page.DrChrissy 12:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've advised them on their talk page of WP:BRD, WP:3RR and to stop edit warring and to use the talk page to discuss, if they ignore that, then a short block may be in order to stop further edit warring and disruption. Given what they've said on their own talk page, there may be linguistic competence issues there. Valenciano (talk) 12:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've bolstered up the previous warnings with some links and the information that they will get blocked if they continue. It needs to be taken to the article talk page though, not his talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks.DrChrissy 18:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I've bolstered up the previous warnings with some links and the information that they will get blocked if they continue. It needs to be taken to the article talk page though, not his talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
threats by another editor
Clue bat administered by user:GB fan Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs) 13:09, June 30, 2015 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am being threatened and libelled by Igetwet. So is Philip Cross. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Alarics&diff=669318278&oldid=669317261 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Philip_Cross&diff=669303627&oldid=669163723 -- Alarics (talk) 12:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I would say that Igetwet needs to be blocked for making legal threats, but I'm not an admin. — Jeraphine Gryphon 12:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Igetwet has been blocked for making legal threats as they have said they reported two different editors to the police. I accidentally first blocked Alarics, but have rectified that and apologized. -- GB fan 12:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm not an admin either. But those were particularly nasty legal threats. I'm also notifying WP:BLPN for more eyes on the article Leon Brittan. The blocked editor (who may not go quietly) was also faking references. The latest material he added to the article was partly redundant and what was "new information" was not remotely supported by the reference. Voceditenore (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Threats and calling me names on Talk:Josip_Broz_Tito#IPA
The editor I'm talking with clearly fails to remain civil. He threatens to report me and calls me a fascist, and debating with him is a joke. He treats the Handbook of the IPA as an unreliable source without a word of explanation. Peter238 (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Peter238: This edit seems to be the one you are talking about by Tuvixer (talk - contribs) SPACKlick (talk) 13:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yep, that's it. I forgot you need to provide the exact diff, thanks. Peter238 (talk) 13:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Now your behavior will be also in the spot. Please, can someone stop him on the article . He has changed the article. I have said to him that his changes are false, but he ignored that, also he ignored the fact that he does not speak, nor Croatian, nor Bosnian, nor Serbian and still he thinks that he is a bigger authority then someone who speaks this languages. He has fabricated evidence and presented a book that does not support his argument, as if so that this book does support his argument. It is really frustrating to be forced to explain to a person, who does not speak BHS, who to speak BHS. If I have really made bad remarks I am really sorry for that. Also in a instance I was joking. I remember that I have asked him nicely to show some good faith and revert the edits he made until we resolve this. But he ignored that, he did not show any good faith. He introduced changes to the article. I have reverted the because they are false, and then he started a edit war. I really don't know how to deal with him, because he ignores everything I say. And I stand behind my words, if someone who does not speak my language tries to force me to pronounce a word incorrectly, is a form of fascism. I am not saying that he is a fascist and everybody can see that but maybe not on purpose he is doing exactly that. Also fabricating sources and ignoring the Misplaced Pages rules. Tnx --Tuvixer (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC):::I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have provided sources in which you can hear people pronouncing "Josip Broz Tito" not "Josip Bros Tito", I can also find videos on the Youtube, where people from ex-Yugoslavia say "Josip Broz Tito". This is really crazy. --Tuvixer (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also look at thisEdit. Is this civil? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think any of that justifies calling someone a "fascist" (or the equivalent, thereof). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I did not call him a fascist. I said that what he is doing is a form of fascism. Everyone can see that. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think any of that justifies calling someone a "fascist" (or the equivalent, thereof). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yep, that's it. I forgot you need to provide the exact diff, thanks. Peter238 (talk) 13:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- What's "pasaran" mean?... Anyway, it's worth nothing that Tuvixer has mentioned around ANI before (here and here), and seems to have been brought up at WP:ANEW on a number of occasions (leading to a couple of blocks for edit warring)... I dunno if the most recent WP:NPA is bad enough for a block, but editor Tuvixer seems to have established an unfortunate pattern on Misplaced Pages. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- You are still under the illusion that being a native speaker means being an authority on the nuances of pronunciation. It does not. About fabricating the evidence (which I've never done!), I've already answered you here. Also, you've failed to say which Misplaced Pages rules I am breaking.
- And I've already explained to you why Forvo is not a reliable source (and indeed, the Serbian (Lutalac's) pronunciation on Forvo partially supports my transcription, which I've already said as well.) Youtube is also not a reliable source. Please read Misplaced Pages:Identifying Reliable Sources.
- "Too bad, mate. I was faster." alludes to the fact that before my report, you threatened to report me two times. No idea how is that uncivil, maybe somewhat cheeky. Peter238 (talk) 13:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- "No pasarán" is Spanish for "they shall not pass". Peter238 (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's an article on the term: ¡No pasarán!. The Spanish version of it has been used by (anarcho-communist) antifascists. --Pudeo' 16:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Very interesting. I'd never heard of that before (and history is one of my interests!)... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- There's an article on the term: ¡No pasarán!. The Spanish version of it has been used by (anarcho-communist) antifascists. --Pudeo' 16:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- It was not a threat, I said that you will leave me no other option. How is that a treat? Did I report you? And I have repeatedly said that I will have to, but I did not. You are the whole time mean and you did, not even once, shown some good faith. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I also probably know why you have reported me. You are loosing the argument and now this is the only thing that you can do, block me so that you can put false information in the article. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- You are the one who says that the Handbook of the IPA (International Phonetic Association) is not a reliable source. I wouldn't say that's "intolerant", but that it is ignorant to the extreme. Especially given the fact that you've never explained why it is unreliable. You told me you'll report me (twice), and I was faster. That's semantics, no big deal. Neither of us have broken the 3RR.
- And here we go with the lies. It's convenient to ignore Landau et al., isn't it?
- Yes, it's a conspiracy. I'm from the Illuminati, don't you know? We rule the world, man. Jesus Christ... Peter238 (talk) 14:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- That book, or atl least that page does not prove that "J. Broz Tito" is pronounced "J. Bros Tito". That is a personal name, and it is no on me to prove something, it is on you to prove that what you are saying is correct. But I think it is over now. :) --Tuvixer (talk) 14:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Pleas read the talk page and then I hope we can end this. Tnx. :) --Tuvixer (talk) 14:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a conspiracy. I'm from the Illuminati, don't you know? We rule the world, man. Jesus Christ... Peter238 (talk) 14:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- It does not have to say that specifically, it's not a pronunciation dictionary. Either way, it's over. Peter238 (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Both of you, please don't rehash the content dispute here. That is what the article talk page is for. This is to discuss conduct. Neither of you have behaved perfectly but from a non-admin POV, Peter provided a source, Tuvixer didn't like the source and so edit warred over it. Peter responded with an edit war. Tuvixer resorted to insults. As mentioned above Tuvixer seems to have some history of this sort of thing and so probably requires sanction. Peter probably only needs instruction on how to appropriately deal with edit wars. SPACKlick (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Inappropriate NAC
Purplebackpack89 (talk · contribs) has, in my opinion, inappropriately closed a CFD discussion that I had started. I re-opened (in the hope an admin would come by and make a decision) and left a note at PBP89's talk page confirming the same. Instead of leaving it, PBP89 has instead re-closed the same discussion. Please can an uninvolved admin review a) the CFD and b) PBP89's conduct? Their reason for closing as they have done, as well as the fact that they have removed deletion tags from affected categories even with the knowledge that their close was questioned, are both extremely concerning. GiantSnowman 18:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I would suggest that you should read WP:CLOSECHALLENGE as you proceed GiantSnowman. IMO it is unlikely that an admin will respond to this until you have followed the procedures listed there. Of course, I could be wrong, so, as I said, this is just a suggestion. MarnetteD|Talk 18:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- @MarnetteD: - I don't think DRV is appropriate, hence why I raise it here. GiantSnowman 18:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Also have a look at WP:NAC and especially at WP:NACD, specifically articipants, including participating administrators, should not reopen non-admin closures. If you disagree with the close then what you want is WP:DRV. (Non-administrator comment) Ivanvector (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC) (Adding after edit conflict) You can't just reopen non-admin-closed discussions, per consensus at this RfC. Ivanvector (talk) 18:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Statement by closer: It's clear that there couldn't be any outcome other than keep. The votes fell 7-2 in favor of keeping the categories. It is unlikely that anybody, admin or not, would have closed the discussion as anything but keep. There was both a consensus that it was appropriate to categorize Italians by region, and concerns that the CfD may have been too broad in scope. It was also inappropriate for GiantSnowman, as nominator, to reopen the discussion in the manner that he did; particularly since the close doesn't satisfy any of the five rationales of WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. And there's some leeway for GiantSnowman to renominate underpopulated categories in my revised closing rationale here, which I would note is different than the closing rationale I used last week when I originally closed. pbp 18:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not challenging the fact it was a 'keep' outcome; I'm challenging the fact that it was an inappropriate NAC (which, by the way, you didn't even note as such). Not quite as bad as non-admins closing TFDs as 'delete', but still not ideal. GiantSnowman 18:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- What part of WP:BADNAC do you think was violated? And if you're not disputing the result, then why are we here? Ivanvector (talk) 19:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, It's noted as an NAC in the current closing rationale (see here) pbp 19:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Unless I'm missing something, there's no special prohibitions on NAC closers who close as "keep". The only issue with NAC closers is in those cases where the consensus is "delete". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- NAC is for "Clear keep outcomes absent any contentious debate among participants" - not the case here. GiantSnowman 19:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- So you think pbp shouldn't have closed, but you don't dispute the result, correct? Or to put it another way, if an admin had closed, we wouldn't be here? And if that's the case, can you let this go? Or are you here to insist that pbp be punished? If so, I will be happy to WP:TROUT them, with their consent, and then let's move on. Ivanvector (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Onel5969 repeated removal of WikiProject talk page banner
Page: Talk:Americans for Prosperity (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
User being reported: Onel5969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This filing is a referral from WP:EWN. I am a participant in WikiProject Organized Labour. Americans for Prosperity is a member of Category:Labor relations in the United States. I added our project banner to Americans for Prosperity in March 2015. The reported user has repeatedly removed the banner.
After the reported user first deleted the WikiProject Organized Labour banner, I sought feedback from my fellow project members at our project talk page, at which time I discovered that the reported user had nominated the article for exclusion from the project. Please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organized Labour#Americans for Prosperity. Significantly, the reported user made no mention of his anti-nomination at article talk. Please see Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Article Wikiprojects and rating.3F. I nominated the article for inclusion in the project, briefly summarizing the evidence for inclusion. A fellow project member concurred for inclusion, as did a third editor. Subsequent to an explanation of WP:PROJSCOPE from another editor at article talk, and subsequent to a consensus for inclusion at project talk, in which both threads the reported user participated, the reported user reverted the project add five more times. Reported user's talk page comments and edit summaries seem to indicate familiarity with WP:PROJSCOPE; possible WP:IDHT. Respectfully request administrator clarification of WP:PROJSCOPE to reported user. Thank you for your attention to this issue. Hugh (talk) 18:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I feel I would be remiss if I didn't include a link to HughD's previous ANI report filing. Also, HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for completeness. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- This issue has just been resolved at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Onel5969 reported by User:HughD (Result:Page restriction applied). This is a clear case of WP:FORUMSHOP. HughD fails to adhere to the consensus on the talk page. I don't know how many times HughD has dragged my name on to these noticeboards (I've lost count), all in vain, but at some point I'm beginning to think that this might constitute something stronger than merer forumshopping, or WP:ADVOCACY or WP:SOAPBOX. Onel5969 19:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)::This also comes after the final decision here Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Onel5969 reported by User:HughD .28Result: Page restriction applied.29. IMO opening yet another thread about this smacks of WP:FORUMSHOPPING and WP:HARASS. MarnetteD|Talk 19:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- "This issue has just been resolved" No, this issue was referred here from WP:EWN by the closing administrator Darkwind, who explained that repeated removal of a WikiProject banner from an article talk page was beyond the core scope of WP:EWN, of article space edit warring, please see the closing comment. Respectfully request assistance with a WP:IDHT issue with guideline WP:PROJSCOPE. Respectfully request administrator clarification of WP:PROJSCOPE to reported user. "A WikiProject's participants define the scope of their project (the articles that they volunteer to track and support), which includes defining an article as being outside the scope of the project. Similarly, if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then do not edit-war to remove the banner." Thank you in advance for your time in addressing this issue. Hugh (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- You really don't get it, do you HughD? That's not what the closing admin said. The issue regarding the revert was closed on that page, as per the closing comment by Darkwind at the top of the discussion. Period. Darkwind's comment to which you allude, was at the end of the discussion, and was referring to your ludicrous request, here's the quote, "The admonishment/warning you seek is beyond the scope of this noticeboard". But again, not shocked to see you misrepresenting stuff once again. And continuing to fail to acknowledge consensus. Onel5969 20:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
If you honestly believe that Misplaced Pages guidelines are not being followed, and the disruption is severe enough to warrant administrative action, open a thread at WP:ANI.
is pretty clear. --Izno (talk) 21:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- You really don't get it, do you HughD? That's not what the closing admin said. The issue regarding the revert was closed on that page, as per the closing comment by Darkwind at the top of the discussion. Period. Darkwind's comment to which you allude, was at the end of the discussion, and was referring to your ludicrous request, here's the quote, "The admonishment/warning you seek is beyond the scope of this noticeboard". But again, not shocked to see you misrepresenting stuff once again. And continuing to fail to acknowledge consensus. Onel5969 20:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- "This issue has just been resolved" No, this issue was referred here from WP:EWN by the closing administrator Darkwind, who explained that repeated removal of a WikiProject banner from an article talk page was beyond the core scope of WP:EWN, of article space edit warring, please see the closing comment. Respectfully request assistance with a WP:IDHT issue with guideline WP:PROJSCOPE. Respectfully request administrator clarification of WP:PROJSCOPE to reported user. "A WikiProject's participants define the scope of their project (the articles that they volunteer to track and support), which includes defining an article as being outside the scope of the project. Similarly, if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then do not edit-war to remove the banner." Thank you in advance for your time in addressing this issue. Hugh (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)::This also comes after the final decision here Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Onel5969 reported by User:HughD .28Result: Page restriction applied.29. IMO opening yet another thread about this smacks of WP:FORUMSHOPPING and WP:HARASS. MarnetteD|Talk 19:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- This issue has just been resolved at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Onel5969 reported by User:HughD (Result:Page restriction applied). This is a clear case of WP:FORUMSHOP. HughD fails to adhere to the consensus on the talk page. I don't know how many times HughD has dragged my name on to these noticeboards (I've lost count), all in vain, but at some point I'm beginning to think that this might constitute something stronger than merer forumshopping, or WP:ADVOCACY or WP:SOAPBOX. Onel5969 19:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- WP:WikiProject Council/Guide clearly lays out that a WikiProject ("WP") can choose to include (or disinclude) a page in its scope. A consensus-gathering action is presently ongoing at WT:WP OL regarding this subject, so from that point ANI is clearly the wrong discussion forum.
On the point of whether the guideline was not followed, so much so as to warrant administrator action against Onel, I would disagree, and personally find the edit restriction as provided for at AN3 to be sufficient for now. Suggest closing this discussion. --Izno (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Checking myself, it appears to me as if the discussion at WT:WP OL has stalled as of June 18, and some of the reverts above are from later in June. There seem to be editors on the talk page of the article who (perhaps?) still disagree with inclusion. I disagree with the aspersion of WP:CANVASS - the use of the WikiProject's talk page to discuss the article in question certainly un-cavass-like to me, even if the contesting editors were not invited to join in the discussion at WT:WP OL for the second go-around.
In conclusion, I would suggest someone get an RFC or similar together on one of the talk page to consider inclusion, ensuring they also notify all of the original editors who are interested in the (dis)inclusion of the topic under that WikiProject, as well as maybe also notifying the editors of the other listed WikiProjects. --Izno (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Checking myself, it appears to me as if the discussion at WT:WP OL has stalled as of June 18, and some of the reverts above are from later in June. There seem to be editors on the talk page of the article who (perhaps?) still disagree with inclusion. I disagree with the aspersion of WP:CANVASS - the use of the WikiProject's talk page to discuss the article in question certainly un-cavass-like to me, even if the contesting editors were not invited to join in the discussion at WT:WP OL for the second go-around.
- For the record, I did advise HughD (t c) to post here about his request for someone to admonish Onel5969 (t c) about the WikiProject banner situation if he still felt it was necessary, because his request was out of scope for WP:ANEW where he originally posted -- not because I find merit in any of the allegations. I encourage everyone to avoid seeing this as forum shopping. Regarding the removal of the WikiProject banners, I have already determined that the removal was not edit warring per se. I placed the 1RR restriction on the article and its talk page simply because the contentious behavior related to this article, and the ensuing allegations, are getting out of hand—not because this instance was edit warring. —Darkwind (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User restoring non-free content
Can someone nip this in the bud? User:TripWire insist on restoring Google Earth images to the article 2012 Siachen Glacier avalanche. It is my understanding, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, that Google Earth images are not free according to WP:IUP. For an image to be considered free it must be possible to remove the Google Earth logo, which GE policy specifically prohibits. If I'm wrong on this please correct me. If I'm right will someone lease tell User:TripWire that these images are not free since they're unlikely to listen to me (discussion is here); the user in general is argumentative, non-cooperative and not easy to discuss disagreements with.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have asked for clarifications at Media copyright questions here, if they are not permitted, I have no problem with it.—TripWire 20:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- THis is pretty much solved since the images have been deleted from Commons as a copyright violation. -- GB fan 20:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment: I was reported it to Commons, thanks for deleting. TripWire is also involved in misusing orange Rollback , . User TrimWire is known for his nationalist views, and calling every other editor as sock , . --Human3015 knock knock • 20:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- First, this discussion was opened for the copyright images and not on my personality on how you perceive it. I have called a declared sock as sock as proved here. Whereas, Human3015 having reported me for being a sock and being unable to prove his allegation is now probably unable to bear the investigations by the admins and hence is resorting to WP:NPA. As for the use of rollback, I havent used it after it was clarified by the Media Copyrights Questions board here that I was wrong. This user is unnecessarily getting personal with me especially since his accusations of labeling me a sock did not work and were disapproved by the SPI admins.—TripWire 21:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Those do appear to be improper uses of rollback TripWire, is there a particular reason you thought those were vandalism, or did you not understand what Rollbacker status mean, or something else? And yes, if you call someone a sock without being willing to back it up with an SPI filing, that is considered unWP:CIVIL, and can draw a sanction. Can you explain? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Explanation As can be seen here the IP is indeed a sock. Also the SPI investigation has proved this here. I did not call ANYONE a sock EXCEPT the IP whose edits were being reverted AFTER he was proven a sock. Human3015 knows this very well but he is deliberately trying to twist the facts, primarily because his bad-faith effort, which he did at the behest of a declared sock diff to prove me as a sock back-fired and he is unable to face the truth. I will request the admins that this user is asking penalties for me just because i called a sock as a sock, but why didnt the admins not block or penalized Human3015 for actually putting me up for an SPI which did not prove anything? I am sure there are no double standards here at wikipedia, and hence I will request the admins to look into this matter, please.—TripWire 21:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- As for the misuse of rollback, first, the rollbacks were done on edits by two blocked IPs as can bee seen here and here. This sock was using multiple IPs from multiple cafes as can be seen in the
- Even if the IP was a sock, the thing is that User:TripWire is using this as an excuse to make highly POV edits of their own to various pages related to India-Pakistan relations (which is all they edit, with a very blatant and skewed POV). As in "some sock made some edits to this page therefore I get to revert them and anyone else on this article and write it up to suit my POV". But yeah, that may be a topic of discussion for a different time.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Dear Sir, you began with copyrightvio, went to accusing me of things I did not do and ended up talking about socks edits which were otherwise required to be edited, what exactly do you want? What you have said about me can exactly be said about you as you were the one who have been reading the sock edits over and again despite the discussion at the talk page, thus pushing a skewed POV. You have been explained by other editors too that the edits y the sock were wrong and did not fit the scope of the page and were thus reverted. You were even offered to open up a RfC which you did not. The disucssion is still open at the talk page with no consensus at all, then how can you reinsert the same info over and again? It's a simple question, sir.—TripWire 22:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Even if the IP was a sock, the thing is that User:TripWire is using this as an excuse to make highly POV edits of their own to various pages related to India-Pakistan relations (which is all they edit, with a very blatant and skewed POV). As in "some sock made some edits to this page therefore I get to revert them and anyone else on this article and write it up to suit my POV". But yeah, that may be a topic of discussion for a different time.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- As for the misuse of rollback, first, the rollbacks were done on edits by two blocked IPs as can bee seen here and here. This sock was using multiple IPs from multiple cafes as can be seen in the
Stop it, everyone, this isn't a pissing match. I asked him to explain he did. Now I will say that you are responsible for knowing how to use a tool before you get it, not after, so using revert outside of it's intended purpose will result in the bit being removed. As to what should or shouldn't be removed, take it to the talk page of the article, admin don't deal with content. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal to Topic-Ban User:Count Iblis from Reference Desk
This is a request to topic-ban User:Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice and arguing with editors who say not to offer medical advice.
The following question was posted: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AReference_desk%2FScience&type=revision&diff=668838130&oldid=668837837
Count Iblis then replied:
There was a lengthy discussion at WT: Reference Desk, beginning with: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AReference_desk&type=revision&diff=668979964&oldid=668974347
The thread continues as Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#Medical_advice.3F.
As can be seen, there is consensus that this post was medical advice, but Count Iblis maintains, in spite of that consensus, that he was justified in making that post. His continuing arguments in support of being able to answer medical questions are tendentious and include https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AReference_desk&type=revision&diff=669127190&oldid=669126680 which is an Argumentum ad Hitlerum. Since he opposes the proposal to close the thread with a warning, and insists on keeping the thread open to defend his conduct, a topic-ban is in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support - At first I thought this was a bit much, but after reading the thread and watching Count Iblis actually make a holocaust comparison (thus violating Godwin's Law) it seems we kind of have to do this to protect Misplaced Pages's interests. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support - based on skimming the thread and in particular Count Iblis' responses, it's clear that there is no argument that the comment was medical advice, which would be kind of bad, but that Iblis insists they should be allowed to give medical advice notwithstanding the guideline, which is clearly wrong. They should therefore absolutely be topic-banned. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Count Iblis is bound by the same rules as the rest of us, whether he acknowledges it or not. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Count Iblis has caused enormous problems in the last few years on the Ref Desk. I have lost count how many times we have been here discussing his behavior. Despite all these discussions he still causes problems. We never ever had any other Ref Desk contributor causing any sort of problems during the entire existence of Misplaced Pages. If you search the archives of the Ref Desk talk page, you see virtually no discussions about editors' conduct exept when the topic is Count Iblis' disgraceful behavior. In fact, if you skim past all the threads there, you are left with just a few threads in total since the start of Misplaced Pages! Count Iblis has given medical advice to people a countless number of times, the WMF has been sued and found liable by a Court in Florida and ordered to pay hundreds of millions in damage. Jimbo Wales had to raise extra funds due to this. So, in short we're better of kicking Count Iblis out of here,. With him gone the Ref Desks can finally return to the good old peaceful times. Good bye Count Iblis, we hope to never see you again here! Count Iblis (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, live with it. BMK (talk) 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- See first law of holes. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Clarify, please, as to whether this means banning Iblis from the ref desks altogether, or merely banning him from anything that is in any way medically-related. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- It seems to be the Ref Desk (as a whole) because of med advice, not just from med advice at the Ref Desk. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yup: He either agrees to comply by the rules, or he doesn't post at all - I see no reason to provide an opening for yet more Wikilawyering over what exactly is or isn't 'medical'. There has been enough time wasted over this already. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK, then, Oppose blanket ref desk ban, Support ban from medical topics on ref desk. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support - per Dennis and AndyTheGrump. BMK (talk) 22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support topic-bannning Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice against consensus. I do not support any lesser restrictions that still allow Count Iblis to edit at the Reference Desk; that would simply simply allow him to explore new and innovative ways of being disruptive. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Count Iblis is now posting as an IP and giving medical advice yet again, Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Science#Fate of coronary artery plaques after rupture. Count Iblis (talk) 22:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
User:JosephBarbero
I'd like to report JosephBarbero on the grounds of harassing me after I reverted his edits on The Tom and Jerry Show (2014). Visokor (talk) 22:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- Diffs please. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Visokor: You must notify the user on their talk page (I already did). In regards to the user's conduct, he was blocked in January by Floquenbeam for disruptive editing, and by myself in May for a week for personal attacks and harassment. It seems he's now back to edit warring on The Tom and Jerry Show (2014 TV series) (although he self-reverted before breaching 3RR) and then proceeded to attack Visokor here. I issued a final warning on their talk page, and recommend a longer block if he does it again. He otherwise seems like a productive editor. §FreeRangeFrog 22:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)